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A Gaggle Of Reviews For Michael Bay's PEARL HARBOR
Well folks, I've been getting tons of reviews on PEARL HARBOR today from that test screening last night in DENVER. Seems that the film was screened on a magnificiently huge screen in the Mile High City and Michael and Jerry were there in attendence. There hasn't been a bad review in yet, there have been films that had smaller problems with the movie, but then that's why they hold test screenings.... to find the smaller problems (or even the bigger problems) and fix them before they've struck 3000 prints and put em in theaters worldwide. Our first review comes from Wild Man Jones... and just so you know, I'm going through these and making sure that any key life and death spoilers are removed... sure you know what happened at Pearl Harbor... but this film has more going on than that... if you don't want to know what, then click away with the knowledge that at this point in the filmmaking process, Michael Bay seems to be on the right track!
Harry,
I caught Pearl Harbor last night also and actually got a glimpse of Bruckheimer and Bay, they both were there. The movie rocks. Some of the digital effects were incomplete, but the ones that were, were the best ever put on celluloid. Josh Harnett actually does a good job, Affleck isn't too bad either. Bay uses some filters on his lenses during some hospital scenes, but for the most part it'll work. Spud from Trainspotting steals the movie with his role as a stuttering scmuck. Jon Voight also is great as the President, he'll get his nod next February. Some scenes seem right out of Armegeddon, like when the president annouces the country, but it still works. Planet of the Apes has it's work cut out for this summer.
Wild Man JonesNext up we have Kalyan....
I was in Denver visiting family when we were lucky enough to attend a
screening of Pearl Harbor!!!!
I was jazzed for it as I have been waiting to see this film for quite
sometime.
Anyways they seem to structure the film similar to TITANIC. The first part
of the film dealt with the interrelationships of the characters. Shots and
feel of the film screamed Armamgeddon...at least in the beggining but I
think the writer established Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett's characters very
well. The film was extremely well shot though, and when the second hour
comes look out!!!
The second hour was just amazing, some the best moments in cinema for me
since HEAT or SCHINDLER'S LIST. There are some scenes with Japanese
planning the attack as well and those were done well. Cuba Gooding
Jr.....words fail me. For someone who was barely in the film I still think
about his performance. The guy is amazing. I am not a fan of his silly
antics off screen, but the guy can act his ass off. Here's hoping the
Academy remembers his performance. These sequences were almost exhausting
but the battles and sheer epic scope of the attack is something people will
be talking about.
At about hour number three, we see John Voight as FDR and he does
well. But very little insight into that character was given, and I don't
blame them. Basically the 3rd hour deals with the revenge on the Japanese
with Alec Baldwin and the ending was well done and even a bit sad. I won't
give anything away there.
All in all, Michael Bay has finally made a good film. I am interesting to
see what else he comes up with down the road. I think Pearl Harbor will win
best picture for 2001.
KalyanAnd now we go to Virgil Hilts...
Hey Harry,
I've been a fan of your site for years, and am happy to finally be able to contribute a scoop. Last night I saw the rough cut of Pearl Harbor at Denver's Continental Theater. This is the best theater in Denver to see big summer movies, so it's fitting that it was chosen for this screening.
Before I start the review let me say that if you liked The Rock and Armageddon you will like Pearl Harbor. If you hate Michael Bay, you will still hate him. However, I do think he deserves a lot of credit for the masterful way that the attack on Pearl Harbor was filmed. It was gripping and you feel like you're right in the middle of the action.
I loved this movie. It will not win best picture next year, but so what? It was a very entertaining big summer popcorn movie. The attack on Pearl Harbor was gripping, and masterfully recreated. The love story is as light and fluffy as in Armageddon, but all three leads were very likeable. I am happy to report that Michael Bay did not use as much rapid fire editing as in his previous movies. There were many of his signature shots, like on the morning of the attack, there were little girls in angel costumes out in the yard dancing around when the Japanese planes whiz by.
There were a couple things I disliked right away, but I don't have any major complaints after the first ten minutes They need to cut Danny's dad from the opening sequence. This bit is very heavy handed in trying to establish the bond between Danny (Hartnett) and Rafe (Affleck). After this scene, the time shifts to 1941. We meet the adult Danny and Rafe playing chicken in fighter planes in a scene that is way too Top Gun, but the audience seemed to like it.
After these first ten minutes, I have no complaints. I liked the character development during the first hour, and the attack on Pearl Harbor was incredibly well done.
The movie clocked in at about 2:52 without credits. I don't think they need to cut more than 5-10 minutes tops. The picture wasn't completely color timed, and a few effects were either still in animated form, or not completely finished. I can't wait to see the completed shot where a torpedo is dropped from a plane and we follow it into the water and towards a battle ship. A lot of the effects were very close to complete, and quite impressive.
Regarding the fuzzy hospital scenes referenced by the Patriot, I think that was done to get the movie a PG-13. You could tell what was going on, but weren't overwhelmed by the gore.
After the screening, my girlfriend and I were chosen to participate in the focus group. There were twenty or so people chosen to participate. Overall, everyone loved the movie. There were only a couple of very minor complaints about things that needed tweaking. Eleven rated it excellent. Nine rated it very good. Two rated it as good. No one disliked it. Mr. Bruckheimer and Mr. Bay (and a bunch of suits) sat two rows behind us and listened to our comments. Evidently they liked our comments, as Mr. Bruckheimer gave someone a hug and they all seemed very pleased. I wish I could have congratulated Michael Bay on not using his rapid fire editing on this movie, but he darted out of the theater as soon as the focus group ended.
I can't wait to see the final version of this movie. I think it could be released without cutting anything and it would still be very enjoyable.
Thanks for running such a great site. If you use this, call me Virgil Hilts.And the review that had the most problems with the film I've received thus far... belongs to Sir William... a reel ripper... This review is filled with Spoilers... I left them in as they are integral to the reviewers problems with the film, so I can't take em out... HOWEVER, if you want to go into the film without the knowledge of what is around each corner.... skip this one and we'll talk later about the film. This is EXTREMELY SPOILER HEAVY
Dear Boss,
Sorry about the anonymity and odd writing style stuff, but you have to
do such things when you've signed a confidentiality agreement to see a
movie I would think. Don't want to get fixed by the studio. I received a
call from a friend recently about going to a free showing of a movie. We
were all sure that it would be a test audience for some summer feature
so we were all jazzed. (Though she was less so when standing line in the
cold.) The line at Continental Theater was just huge, everyone else had
heard about this as well. But we were able to get into the showing,
though just barely. We ended up sitting in the very front row... Good
thing my neck is young an' flexible.
So there we were watching Pearl Harbor, the Bay and Bruckheimer film.
Interesting piece, though the special effects and music were not done it
will probably be halfway decent. Though not a movie for people who don't
like mildly jingoistic war movies with love triangles. You see the main
character Rafe (indifferently acted by Ben Affleck, he's not bad, but he
did not do a stand out job either) went off to England to fly with the
Eagle Squad. And he goes down in the channel, but of course he survived. Picked up by French fishermen.
Meanwhile back at Pearl Harbor everyone thinks he's dead and his best
friend starts falling in love with his girlfriend, Evelyn. Predictably
just as she discovers she is pregnant guess who shows up? Rafe. (We
thought he was dead up until this point. Honest. Yeah right.) The usual
knock down drag out fight in a bar followed up by the morning raid on
Pearl Harbor.
Our heroes get their planes off the ground and using unorthodox flying
they kill off seven enemy fighters! And are apparently the only two
planes to get off the ground that day. Then they go on the Doolittle
raid of Tokyo. (HARRY NOTE: GOT RID OF BIG SPOILER BECAUSE I'M NOT A BASTARD)
This may sound like I hated it, but that's not the case. The cool stuff
was able to overcome what I didn't like. I just wish the fat could have
been cut off, though I suppose that is what we are for, eh? Also at
least with this copy it was a bit too loud for long sequences. I should
have brought ear plugs.The good:
The recreation of the Pear Harbor Attack
The Scenes of the Japanese Planning the Attack (surprisingly fair and
immensely cool looking. There was this one with them putting models down
in a concrete pool to decide things that just looked great.)
A lot of the flying sequences (Somewhat unrealistic and the repeat of
the "let's play chicken" sequence from the start is predictable, but
over all the flying was sharp.)
Most of the Doolittle Raid (The end was a bit overwrought)
The recreation of the 1940's. Great sets! Just fantastic, and probably
not easy given the changes to Hawaii over the years.
Dan Aykroyd as Capt. Thurman, he does a good job in a very small part.The Bad (currently and could change):
The voice over sum up at the end. So boring. They don't do what happened
to the characters later, it is more hack sentiments about how this test
of fire... blah blah... We survived.. blah blah...
The overly dramatic Roosevelt Standing up to shame the cabinet scene.
"Don't tell me what can't be done!"
The predictable results of the romantic triangle
Also the death of the secondary character's love interest. (
Doolittle played by Alec Baldwin... Just bad. Worst actor in the movie.
Fishing blood stained flag out of the water and saving the dog. Ag!
The MTV cut and blurred picture bits in the hospital went on just a
little too long. A minute or two shorter would have had the same impact
in my opinion, but what do I know?
Well lets hope they get some good music. It could move the film from
just entertaining to good in the final cut.
From Hell,
Sir William
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+ Expand All
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but can't. looking forward to this flick
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Scares me a tad, but it should still be nice. Does it really have to be light and fluffy, though. I mean, really...
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I have zero enthusiasm for seeing this film. Michael Bay, while a competent stylist, couldn't tell a story if his life depended on it. I'm still trying to dispel the motion sickness Armageddon gave me.
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I have dreamed of this moment...the day draws closer...one day there will be no one at the top and I will claim my rightful place...
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It was a movie!? are you serious? i just thought it was a nightmare, mass hysteria. i couldn't believe that such a twisted nightmare was real...i guess this just proves we're all damned.
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These reviews may not be (the comments seem too similar for my tastes) but the growing sentiment for this film is. You would have to be a complete a**h*** to make a MTV style film about pearl Harbor and i dont think thats what was done here. this is Bay's pet project just look back a few years to his appearance on ET and he shows early f/x tests. judging by the trailers there is a great film here that can only be ruined by test screenings. we dont need some brain dead teenager filing out the survey at the end of a screening as a joke and not taking it seriously. this is one of the few films this year to have a lock on oscar noms the other being lord of the rings. hopefully this films success will get bay out from Bruckheimer's productions and you will see his real style emerge
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There's a scene where they save a DOG? Where they gaff an American flag dripping with blood out of the water? Well, hit me with a hammer.
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I am cool now. Michael Bay sucks. I'm even cooler now. Let beging thr brainless Bay-bashing comrades!!!
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Never before have "positive" reviews so negatively affected my excitement for a movie. "If you liked 'Armageddon,' you'll love 'Pearl Harbor'"?!?!?!?! This is what I feared the worst. I'm sure I'll still see the film, but it's a real shame Michael Bay had to direct this film.
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Pearl Harbor? This thing is just ooozing and screaming, GIVE ME A OSCAR or TWO!! If I have to see the fucking trailer one more time, I will just throw my drink at the screen at the exact moment that bomb drops onto the boat!
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You people are so cynical...do yourself a favor and open your minds for once...this movie could be really good. Armaggedon wasn't THAT bad...I've seen way way way worse. I think the movie should be fun, if you let it be, won't be amazingly groundbreaking or nothing though...
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I must say that I am looking forward to this movie. Dispite Bruckheimer's jaded and formulaic style of movie making, I must admit I like the odd popcorn movie now and then. And it seems that Hollywood has finally realised that America has enougth of its own history to bastardise for the movies rather than others (as a Brit I'm still smarting over U-571, a film I still won't watch on princible!!). But I am worried about this term light and fluffy that has been banded about. Pearl Harbor, let us not forget, was the catalyst that led to the horrors of the atomic age and the only use of the atom as a weapon againest humans. Not a good legacy I feel. I just hope that the end of the film doesn't have a "well the Japs surprized us good and proper but we nuked them for it so we got them back." feel to it. That would be very sad. On another note, this film has NOT to be compared to Tora Tora Tora. That is a film. Pearl Harbor is gonna be a movie. A small but important difference. Tora was shown very recently on British TV (in anamorphic digital widescreen....cool) Tora is primarily a fact driven drama. And a good one too. Pearl Harbor is going to be a story driven historical piece. I just hope that Bay and Bruckheimer don't mask factual short comings with bigger explosions....
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Do a war film with a "love triangle" ACK!!! When I see a war film I want to see action. I want to see strategy sessions and I want to see realism. I want the film to be as accurate as possible. I don't really give a flying shit about who loves who. I have a feeling that the overall Titanic experience will not go away for quite awhile. What a shame... now where did I leave my copy of Tora, Tora, Tora!!! Scorpius.
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Hey has anybody heard of this new script that is floating around? It's called "Fighting Ben Affleck". It's supposed to be hilarious...
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but here's the thing this is one important moment in history. like titanic you need to bring in characters who arent real in order to show us whats happening because if they were real the majority of the audience will know what happens to them plus this year you also have AI, Ali, Planet of the Apes ,JP3and Harry Potter Vanillia Sky coming out add them to this and Lord of the rings and thats really it people. Thats our year in film. For good or bad thats it. There may be some titles im forgetting but thats it.Out of that list pick what tiltles could win nominations and what will make money.
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Mar 02, 2001 4:23:51 PM CST
U-571 was shit! Don't waste your money Gabba-UK, ever! I hope
by shaft78
As a student of military history (I am currently working on my masters on Civil War history) I take offense to Hollywood execs re-creating history just so they can tell a story. As for that 'reviewer' who slammed Jon Voight's performance of Roosevelt- has he ever read a history book? Roosevelt DID "dramatically" confront congress. I just hope Bruckheimer and Bay do a better job on this one than on Armageddon. I liked the Rock though. I just hope they don't over do the whole patriotic thing- the americans did drop an atomic bomb and kill tens of thousands of people- twice for that matter!
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I could make myself a crap and cheese sandwich. Just saw a preview for the former, just read reviews for the latter. Sigh.
I will get dragged to this, I will cry, and then I'll wish I were dead. -
HATE THEM IF U MUST!BUT WE DO NEED POPCORN FLICKS!I HAVE WORKED IN THE MOVIE THEATRE BUSINESS FOR OVER 15 YEARS!AND THESE POPCORN MOVIES KEEP ARE THEATRES OPEN!EVEN ME THE JOCK(NOT DUMBJOCK CAUSE I PLAY QUARTERBACK!AND I AM THEE MAIN MAN AT THE THEATRE THE ALL POWERFUL GM!)CAN UNDERSTAND THIS!SO ALL YOU SMART DUDES CAN FIGURE THIS OUT!NOT TO MENTION I LOVE ALL MOVIES ESP. POPCORN FLICKS!THIS MOVIE WILL BE AWESOME AND YES I LOVED ARMAGGEDON!ADIOS MY MOVIE BROTHERS SEE YA AT THE FLICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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it doesn't sound like anything surprising or particularly moving. How like a Bruckheimer/Bay flick indeed. I just hope it doesn't cheapen Pearl Harbor.
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Responding to Barabas. I have read "Fighting Ben Affleck" screenplay. It is hysterical. And more than that, the characters and story are very good. This is not just some cheesy little thing.
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Fact: America managed to sink more of its own ships during pearl harbour by filling the vessels with water whilst firefighting than the Japanese did through bombing. Reckon that will make it into the film?
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Mar 02, 2001 6:12:28 PM CST
Remember When Epic Films Used To Couch Their Manipulation In A S
by mrbeaks
It's just a shame to see all of this money spent towards the making of a stylishly jingoistic film that will have to rely largely on its domestic gross to turn a profit (it's a lot easier to defend ARMAGEDDON on that count, since it was so unabashedly braindead; therfore, folks outside of the U.S. were less likely to take offense at all of the flag waving.) You can be historically fair and *still* thrill audiences. To tell you the truth, I find it easier to stomach GONE IN 60 SECONDS than the prospect of a dumbed-down hybrid of TORA, TORA, TORA and TITANIC.
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Why do people feel the need to bash Americans when Hollywood makes pro-American war movies? What the hell do you expect them to make? A movie that glorifies the Germans? The fact of the matter is that everyone got hit hard during WWII, but Pearl Harbor was about America getting bombed by Japan. Who cares about them sinking the ships when they tried to put out the fires? They also arent going to include the fact that FDR probably knew about the bombing before it happened but let it happen so he could bring the US to war. Who gives a shit. If the US hadnt joined the war, Germany would be a much larger country than it is today. The US didnt singlehandedly win the war, but we did help a great deal. It was the Allied forces, not just one country. Its something to boost patriotism in a time when alot of countries, not just the USA, desperately need it. If Britian or any other country made a WWII movie, I would bet your life that it wouldnt be about how valiantly the French faught during the seige of their country. So stop your bitching. Its our movie, let us make it how we want to make it. If you want movies that glorify your country, then make them and shut your foot-and-mouth ridden faces.
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About Pearl Harbor ushering in the age of atomic weapons...in case you didnt know, other countries were working on their own versions of the atom bomb, namely Germany. Can you imagine what would have happened had America not joined the war and helped defeat the Germans and developed the bomb first? We only used it twice...both times against Japan in WWII. Trust me, my British friends, it would have been much uglier had Germany developed it first. You speak as though the US has used it at every turn. We used it only twice. If we got through the Cold War without bombing the hell out of each other, we are in no danger of the bomb being unleashed again. If American hadnt created, someone else would it. Just be thankful things turned out as they did, considering the alternatives.
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All allies had their part (I mean UK, USSR and USA).
Now, about bitching on US patriotic movies, well, stop it would be very simple :)
just STOP exporting this crap outside US; how any idiot dared to release Patriot in England is still beyond me. Since such movies mostly concern US, can be liked mostly by US and would mostly make money there, better not release this stuff elsewhere. I can assure you Canada, Europe, Japan and other countries would have dozens of movies to show instead of ID4, Armageddon or U-571.
BTW, I'm just noting the warning from AICN talkbacks, saying that ". Blatant abuse, personal attacks, OFF-TOPIC BS, cross-posting, blatant advertising, and hate speech are all fodder for deletion. In other words, being a jerkwad loser will get you banned.". I assume it's a joke, I've never seen this happened -
Just like The Patriot and U571, Pearl Harbor will show how the Americans single-handedly won World War Two while at the same time showing them as wonderful and saving the world. The Patriot made the British antagonist into a horrible murderer and rapist when he wasn't, while making the
American protagonist a great family man when in fact he was a horrible murderer and rapist. U571 took an event that consisted primarily of British and Canadian soldiers and changed them to Americans. I expect Pearl Harbor will do much of the same, and Jeff Wells said that it is obvious that the film captures nothing of World War 2 and 1941, instead making it seem like a video game. I hated Armageddon with a passion and I refuse to see more of this crap. As for Bruckheimer, I just love Pauline Kael's description of him: watching one of his movies is like being with an old whore with good hands. Unfortunately, most of the target audience is pretty ignorant so it will likely be successful. -
Mar 02, 2001 7:34:28 PM CST
I didn't even read the article, I had just had to give props for
by pepperseed
Where's Linus? I always related to Linus.
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I totally agree. With a war movie we want war. ALA Saving Private Ryan. Granted that also had a lot of walking and talking. But Pearl Harbor could have been just as good, though probably not as financially viable if they just did a straight war film about the strategy of the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor(when they knew it would bring in the United States!) and how the United States retaliated. AMEN Scorpius we need a nice long war movie!
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I'd like to line you all up and have you shot at sunrise! Harry please assemble a firing squad in your dad's backyard for these cowardly sissy boys! They should be fed to the pit bulls after we shoot them. Some of your grandfathers probably died at Pearl Harbor or in World War II so show a little respect. Did you make fun of "Saving Private Ryan"? Then don't make fun of this epic because that's my job. I will make fun of its "artistic pretensions" after I see it. Until then, shape up or ship out!
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Why are lot of people tired of these stupid, flag waiving American war movies? Because Americans are so full of themselves that they like to try to fool people into thinking that they were the great saviors of the planet. HA, the European countries fought for years in both World Wars before America was even bothered to show up (johnny come latelys to be sure) and take all the credit. The U.S. did jack shit, but drop a few atomic bombs on innocent Japanese civilians. Most Americans are so full of themselves that they buy this propaganda, also THERE WAS NO MOON LANDING YOU KNOW, just another plot from the U.S. government to try and act superior.
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the reason why US will continue to export shitty war movies and americano centered stories is very simple: because other countries buy it!... if you wanna blame anyone for this tons of patriotic crap, you should blame first moviegoers! directors, producers, ditributors of those shits are only greedy cynical buisnessmen. if the audience refused to eat their shit, they wouldn't do it anymore... BTW, I sometimes love popcorn flicks, when it's pure fiction. but when it's supposed to be historical... I just run away! eventually I see it on TV but I don't give a dime, a shilling a kopek or whatever!
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"Armageddon" was that bad.
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I guess AICN doesn't support HTML. Anyway, fine, I don't care if you like Bay's movies. But he shouldn't tackle something like the story of Pearl Harbor. A lot of the people who lived it are still alive, dammit, and they deserve more respect that Bay is willing to give them.
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Im in no way defending American arrogance in movies, but hundreds of thousands of Americans selflessly gave their lives to stop a tyrannical madman just like the soldiers of whatever country your from. Why don't you show a little respect.
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The reason that Americans are usually shown as the savior is because they were. Everyone else can't even settle a damn dispute anywhere without US help. I know it may get a little sickening for other countries to see this but it's the truth. As far as Pearl Harbor, if a war movie deserved to show American patriotism, this is the one. The coward Japanese should stop complaining about the atomic bombs, you brought it on yourself. BTW, I hope this movie is entertaining, that's it. I'm not expecting an epic. As of March 1st, there has not been one good movie released in 2001. I'll take a good one at this point. P.S. - whoever said that Private Ryan showed the war from both sides didnt see the same film I did. Even Spielberg had the Germans as cookie cutter bad guys and didnt even show hardly any french or british.
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Why argue amongst ourselves when we all know that the real enemy is... the French!(the Maquis aside)... Oh, by the way, How are they going to fit the requisite Aerosmith power ballad into this one?
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Scud...you are right on the money.
As a history buff, I find it quite frustrating that the current generation (youth) has absolutely NO concept of the enormity and horror of WWII. Perhaps even more disturbing is the evident lack of interest in people to study or learn more about THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT EVENT of our times...which directly shaped the geopolitical landscape and zeitgeist of the 20th century.
Even into the 21st century, the prosecution and ultimate outcome of the WWII, and its consequences, continue to ripple through the national psyches of all nations embroiled in the struggle.
I have a real problem with the cynicism and apathy of people who dismiss portrayls of WWII, and especially America's involvement, as being "jingoistic". Today...for some reason, it is not "COOL" for us Americans to be patriotic. Examples of this are to be found in the Talk Balks, here, as well as by the reviewers.
I will be the FIRST to admit to being sickened by mis-guided and trully pathetic attempts by Hollywood at pushing our patriotic buttons...can anyone say Indepencance Day, Armaggedon, The Patriot, U-571. There is one important difference here, however. These aforementioned movies were works of pure fantasy and fiction...or inaccurate, revisionist takes on History.
There is ABSOLUTELY a place for patriotism...and for feeling proud of one's country. The people who dismiss genuine efforts by historical writers / artists / cinema to chronicle the patriotism and self-sacrifice of the Allies, and the men and women who fought and died in WWII, are simply clueless.
Most of these people who pounce on patriotism and national pride are just plain ignorant...and regretfully DISRESPECT the MEMORY, HONOR and HEROISM of the British, Russians, and Americans who made the ULTIMATE sacrifice...and by so doing, literally saved the world. I ask you...where in the "course of human events", has there ever been a more righteous cause and crusade. Yes, for perhaps the only time in history, this was trully Good prevailing over Evil. This core of this Evil was the general intolerance by the German people for their own countrymen...those of Jewish heritage. For those interested, I strongly recommend "Hitler's Willing Executioners" (forgot the author's name). This anti-semitism festered within German society well before Hitler came to power. When Hitler seized power, National Socialism became the state "religion", and the anti-semitic seeds were sown for a most bitter harvest.
Does anyone out there realize that 46 MILLION soldiers and civilians perished in World War II, many in circumstances of prolonged and horrifying cruelty. Of these, countless numbers where men, women, children, and babies who were murdered for being "sub-human". Another Tens of millions of innocents were killed without and record. The world had a new word to add to its vocabulary...Genocide.
It is also a matter of undisputed fact that tens of thousands, (perhaps hundreds of thousands) of Germans who DID NOT BELONG to the NAZI Party were active participants in the machinery and infrastructure that led innocent men, women, children, babies and the elderly, to their deaths.
Nazi Germany's "Euthanasia" program dispatched thousands more innocents by systematic sweeps of their mental asylums.
It is now 2001. World War II concluded in Europe with the fall of Berlin and the liberation of the death camps in 1945.
That would mean that many perpetrators of the most aggregious and horrific crimes against humanity STILL walk this Earth. Murdering Monsters among us.
So to all those who blissfully meander through life without pause or reflection for what was at stake, and what was lost...F**K YOU! Get some education.
As an American, and on behalf of all our stupid people, I wish to apologize to our British and Russian brothers for the indifference, myopic disregard (or utter ignorance) by many of us for their contribution.
A fight "against all odds" that is every bit as important (if not more) than America's
The British were fighting and dying while America slept. The Russians were fighting and dying by the MILLIONS while America mobilized. Let us not forget to honor the Canadians, French, Aussies, Kiwis, and resistance fighters who also fought and died to end the terror Fascist Germany and Japan.
...I may be straying off topic, here. Sorry about that, I just plain DON't GET IT why people cannot understand what was at stake. It is not hyperbole to state that if Nazi Germany had defeated Britain and Russia, it would have been only a matter of time before Britain(and perhaps America)would become virtual slaves...while peoples of Russia, Poland, and all the slavic countries would experiance Hitler's unique method of "ethnic cleansing".
As Americans, we owe Britain more than can be said in words for standing alone against Nazi Germany...with her "against all odds" struggle and eventual victory in foiling Germany's plans to bring Britain to her knees. If Briatin had fallen, Hitler would have been able to mobilize all his resources for the campaingn against Russia.
I also suspect that most of you don't realize that Russia suffered more than anyone in her fight against Germany. On the morning of June 22, 1941, Germany invaded Russia. During The Soviet Union's subsequent 5-year struggle against Germany, Russia lost 10 Million in action, a further 3.3 million died as prisoners-of-war in German concentrtion and death camps. Seven (7) Million civilians perished, for a total death toll in excess of 20 million Soviet citizens.
Okay...I am about to wrap things up. To finish of this diatribe, I want to mention D-Day. Again, I cannot understand the criticism with which some people throw upon Speilburg for his masterpiece, Saving Private Ryan (not to mention Shindler's Lists). Yes, certain parts of the film were meant to illicit strong emotion, or at least hope to awaken some pride and respect for the men from America, Britain and Canada who broke into Fortress Europe.
Of course the story was told from an American perspective!!!! It was made by and American, produced by an American studio, and targeted for an American audience. The movies singular message was to give us an appreciation for what was accomplished. Its moral center, in my opinion, is an homage to those who fought and died to keep us free. The story of the search for Private Ryan is simply a vehicle to transport this subtle and sublime theme.
I am 34 years old. I have been to Normandy, stood on the cliffs overlooking the Omaha landing site. I am not ashamed to say that I cried as I walked the through the sea of crosses which mark the fallen. Many read "known only but to God". I was 16 at the time. I will never forget that experience.
Thus endeth the lesson.
I need to go take my medicine now.
Tritium
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it's just capitalism. Tarleton (Tavington?, I can't remember which was the real name and which was in the movie) was indeed a mureder. Have you ever heard of Tarleton's Quarter? It means no quarter, kill any one who surrenders. And where in that maovie did they make him a rapist? Allegations that Francis Marion was a rapist are unproven, though it is a fact that he was a murderer. Don't take this as a defense of the Patriot, that movie was a piece of shit (though you complain about jingoism from a movie about the fucking revoilution?). In U-571's defense at least there was a disclaimer after it (that movie was a piece of shit too by the way, why in fuck change history around like that? it's not as though the enigma machines we captured were worthless). Elsewhere in the tb: a hells ya to schnogul for representin' with the rationality. If you retards disn't keep paying to watch the jingoistic shit we send you then we would stop sending it to you. This is not a fucking difficult concept, like I said, it's just capitalism.
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..the US just dropped a couple of bombs on Japan? What about the US' Flying Tigers in China as freedom fighters? What about the men who died on the Bataan Death March? The Burma Hump(Most C-47's that flew through there were piloted by 18-19 year olds. Many didn't make it.) and the Burma Road? Wake Island. The men who died on Mt. Suribachi. The Marines who raised the flag on Iwo Jima, one of whom was an AMERICAN INDIAN NAMED IRA HAYES. Out of a 40 man platoon, 36 were killed. That means 1 in 10 men lived. You think you're man enough to face those odds? A friend of mine's dad was on the Utah and he was proud to display a license plate that read "PEARL HARBOR SURIVIOR" that the state issued for combat vets that were there. THESE WERE MEN! BETTER MEN THAN YOU'LL EVER BE! If a little bitch like you were to go into combat, you'd shit your pants, you coward! And remember this, you piece of shit, its men like these that fought and gave their lives so that you can live in a free world! SHOW THEM RESPECT!
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I'm an American!!!! But I got so sick of the damn place that I left. Sure, a few hundred thousand American "good old boys" (read, those simple enough to buy Roosevelts propaganda) went to war and lost their lives, but a few million Europeans and Asians lost their lives while the U.S. was left with it's thumb up it's ass, watching movies and doing the boogie woogie, not giving a shit. Only after they were embarresed and bitch slapped we're they bothered to slay a few million innocent Japanese. I guess you guys don't get it, living in the American cocoon of self congratulation. Come to Europe, live here for a year, watch some of their documentaries, read some of their books and you'll find out the truth. Until then, you haven't a clue. You guys get your info from the likes of "Saving Private Ryan" and "Schindlers List" and soon "Pearl Harbor" and you believe it and the macho American posturing that goes with it. Obro Los Ojos guys. Open your eyes.
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Who's the lesser man. The man who "dares" speak ill of "America The Beatifull" or the man who resorts to calling names?
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Mar 02, 2001 11:35:07 PM CST
Deac Speaks..... don't you damn retards ever wanna just be enter
by deacon
for the love of god you're all bitching about how lame micheal bay is cause he doesn't have a good visual style and how he catss bad actors and blah blah blah blah SHUT UP!!! it's not a drama, it's not a freaking Oscar material movie here dammit! it's a freakin Bruckheimer flick! meant for nothing but entertainment value! you go in with some popcorn and watch the explosions and dog fights and learn some history while your at it! pull your damn heads outta your freakin asses and stop acting like joel seigal for christ's sake... these people spend millions to provide you with 2 hours of non-stop action and cool special effects for only 8 bucks(the price of a pack of smokes and a comic book) and you bitch and moan about how it's nbot to your liking? then don't fucking go! nobody is forcingyou! if you don'tthink it's your cup of tea then simply don't plan on going! wait till it's on DVD or wait till it's on HBO but stop bitching about it!
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Sometimes in times like these we have to all look around and grab some doritos because nothing on earth matters like the bug in the chip. never again will i wash myself clean of the stories of theday and to the night of the fall. you win. start over. stop smoking. never quit. never start. sometimes its just a matter of time. fuck the bozos.
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It's my Curse Forever... see i can type really damn fast but at top speed, my spelling and propper grammar take a back seat to the speed... so i'm stuck with either spelling disaster typed in less then 2 minutes... or excellent spelling typed in 6 minutes... WHY GOD?
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Mar 02, 2001 11:57:04 PM CST
Tritium, I think your excellent post represents the feelings of
by dave_f
...myself included. Personally, I hate these Talkbacks that deal with America's place in history. Jingoistic assholes from every side crawl out of the woodwork, and potentially interesting discussions quickly devolve into "us versus them" arguments. Instead of talking to each other, we're screaming at each other. This is *not* how you convince someone of the righteousness of your beliefs. But between all the shouting, it's nice to see a post like Tritium's that defies trendy cynicism and embraces patriotism without disparaging the contributions of *all* the Allies of World War II. What's unfortunate is that Hollywood is doing its damnedest to devalue thoughtful patriotism with the heavy-handed approaches of movies like "Armageddon", "The Patriot", and in all likelihood, "Pearl Harbor". Based on Bay's track record and the cloying trailer, I have zero confidence that he'll truly honor the soldiers of World War II as Spielberg did in "Private Ryan". "Private Ryan" wasn't flawless, and the bookend scenes were unnecessary, but I never felt the movie was being jingoistic or cynically manipulative. With "Pearl Harbor", the trailer alone has me embarrassed. Still, while Bay will most likely churn out a formulaic hunka crap on the order of "The Patriot", it will IN NO WAY invalidate the real sacrifices made by soldiers during World War II. Nor will it invalidate their patriotism, or impugn my right to feel pride for what the Allies accomplished. Tritium, thanks for providing the balanced viewpoint that goes unspoken in so many of these Talkbacks.
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Stirring music. Something patriotic yet collegiate like LONDON CALLING by the Clash. Narrator:"It was a time of innocence..." We see the outside of a house party at night. Our hero, his cute punkette girlfriend and a couple of his buds walk across the lawn. On the porch, a rather large DRUNK is popping pennies at people. CLOSE on a penny spinning through the air. Heads. Tails. Heads. It strikes the girlfriend's cheek. ZOOM IN ON Drunk and his buds laughing. NARRATOR: "...and a time of innocence lost." Our hero and his boys charge the porch. The drunk and his boys still laughing until our hero abruptly skids, fakes a punch and drops the drunk with a nad kick. Our hero shoves the drunk off the side of the porch and proceeds to stomp on him. The drunk's boys make a half hearted move to help but don't back off when shoved back by our heroes boys. NARRATOR: "From Jerry Bruckheimer, who brought you RESTRAINING DON SIMPSON, and Michael Bay director of WHAT'CHU GONNA DO WHEN THEY COME FOR YOU?...a saga of our nation's greatest moment KICKING A DRUNK GUY'S ASS!"
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...tell it to the soldiers that gave their lives so that you can type your posts that are read in a free country that those men and women fought and died for. Then tell it to the Marines.
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I'm sorry, but this is an old argument that I'm compelled to enter again. Fighting against the evil of Hitler may have been necessary, but there are no "heroes" in wars. Soldiers are hired killers, NOTHING ELSE. I don't give a shit what they preserved. I don't give a shit whose grandfather died doing whatever. They are HIRED KILLERS. There is nothing glorious about it. There is nothing good about it. There is certainly nothing HEROIC about it. It had to be done. Some were unlucky enough to have to participate in the fighting. I don't respect these people because they killed or died for the USA, I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the the fact that they were killed themselves, or perhaps worse, forever DEHUMANIZED by the atrocities of man against man, all for the sake of property. This is what Spielberg failed to depict, and certainly what Bay will fail to depict as well. That war is dehumanizing. It does not make heroes out of men, it makes animals of them. You can cry at their funerals or their unmarked crosses, but I suggest after visiting the D-Day site you also visit Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where innocent people who were not HIRED KILLERS died without warning (their government was warned, but they weren't). I also suggest you read James Jones' NOVEL The Thin Red Line (the book is a beautiful tone poem that merely scratches the surface and raises questions). THis is from a guy who WAS at Guadalcanal, and he is anything but a flag-waver. This is his Dedication from the book: "This book is cheerfully dedicated to those greatest and most heroic of all human endeavors, WAR and WARFARE; may they never cease to give us the pleasure, excitement and adrenal stimulation that we need, or provide us with the heroes, the presidents and leaders, the monuments and museums which we erect to them in the name of PEACE." Think about that when you pay $8 to be entertained by Michael Bay. Think about that the next time you glorify marines or anyone else that gets a paycheck for shooting (or in the case of Vietnam, massacring and raping) people. And you can take that red, white and blue symbol of hypocrisy and stick it up your fucking asses. Last time I checked we all live on the same planet. Try celebrating that.
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Most of the people haven't any idea of what they (we) were fighting in WW2. And at the end one can even think that Hitler was just practicing his genocidal tactis on Gypsies and jews, for next would come all the slavic peoples, and after them probably 1 or 2 billions more men.
One could add China to your list of fighting countries; against Japan they lost nearly as much people as Russia, probably 20 mio. Both paid the highest price for sure. Poland was as mightily crushed, with 1/4 to 1/3 of the population wiped out.
Next, Lazarus is as right. By war no one great becomes, or whatever the funny lil puppet said in Empire strikes back. At teh end, everyone lost in WW2; though some took obvious advantages economically and politically speaking. Wonderful artworks were crushed, millions killed, civilisation going down the drain. Bad.
BTW, Tritium, if you want to find what could well looks like as righteous causes, destruction of Red Khmers regime in Cambodia wouldn't be too far, and to take a current issue, the wiping out of talibans from Aghanistan would be a great deed of civilisation, before those morons destroy everything in the country. -
Im so sure this movie will be very good. I mean shit, Amagedon was one of the wors movies I have ever seen (Harry Cryed) It makes me sick that this will be done in a boo hooo Titanic way. Pearl Harbor means alooght to aloght of people. If thay get it wroung...People will be mad.
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Don't you people get it? Most people aren't upset that Michael Bay has made another one of his cookie-cutter movies; they're upset because Michael Bay has taken what could have been a timeless classic and made another one of his cookie-cutter movies! I can't help but judge movies on what they could have been, as well as what they are.
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A balanced and well thought out talkback? A rare beast indeed. There is nothing wrong with Patriotism in movies dealing with history. As long as they a factaully accrurate. I can forgive the blatent flag waving of Armageddon for two reasons. 1) it was pure fiction and 2) Should such a thing as an asteroid turn up the USA would be the only natiom on Earth with the resources to do anything about it. Saving Private Ryan for all its faults, was accrurate but simply told from an American stand point. Again I can forgive that. I too have stood in the Graveyards of Normandy and have felt nothing but humility and awe at the sacrifice made by the men who fought and died for all of us. Entertaining war movies have a place as long as they educate which is the reason why I don't like a lot of John Wayne's WWII movies. To simply make as entertainment the death of millions is just so wrong it can't be defended. The great worry of mine is that judgeing from these talkbacks a hell of a lot of the American youth of today simply aint bothered to learn any history unless its spoonfed to them in 2hr long chuncks with 6-channel digital surround. You want to try living over here in Europe. We are still dealing with the aftermath of WWII. Hardly a year goes by without the British and German armies Bomb disposal units having to defuse an old WWII bomb thats been found in some building site. Water mines get washed up on our shores every now and again. We're still finding and prosicuting Nazi war criminals even now. These are things that are part of our future history so we should take care to not forget our past history either. How else are we going to learn. This apathy towards learning from the past is what is allowing things such Uganda's Genocide in which over 2 million have died so far. But unless they have oil or it's causeing us difficultly we ain't bothered no more. We all need to be educated. I remember a story on the BBC once about how when questioned some 5% of US teenagers thought that WWII started in 1941! This is the legacy that Hollywood has left us. Never forget just what a powerfull medium film is. It just seems a shame that Hollywood has forgotten that very thing...
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A balanced and well thought out talkback? A rare beast indeed. There is nothing wrong with Patriotism in movies dealing with history. As long as they a factaully accrurate. I can forgive the blatent flag waving of Armageddon for two reasons. 1) it was pure fiction and 2) Should such a thing as an asteroid turn up the USA would be the only natiom on Earth with the resources to do anything about it. Saving Private Ryan for all its faults, was accrurate but simply told from an American stand point. Again I can forgive that. I too have stood in the Graveyards of Normandy and have felt nothing but humility and awe at the sacrifice made by the men who fought and died for all of us. Entertaining war movies have a place as long as they educate which is the reason why I don't like a lot of John Wayne's WWII movies. To simply make as entertainment the death of millions is just so wrong it can't be defended. The great worry of mine is that judgeing from these talkbacks a hell of a lot of the American youth of today simply aint bothered to learn any history unless its spoonfed to them in 2hr long chuncks with 6-channel digital surround. You want to try living over here in Europe. We are still dealing with the aftermath of WWII. Hardly a year goes by without the British and German armies Bomb disposal units having to defuse an old WWII bomb thats been found in some building site. Water mines get washed up on our shores every now and again. We're still finding and prosicuting Nazi war criminals even now. These are things that are part of our future history so we should take care to not forget our past history either. How else are we going to learn. This apathy towards learning from the past is what is allowing things such Uganda's Genocide in which over 2 million have died so far. But unless they have oil or it's causeing us difficultly we ain't bothered no more. We all need to be educated. I remember a story on the BBC once about how when questioned some 5% of US teenagers thought that WWII started in 1941! This is the legacy that Hollywood has left us. Never forget just what a powerfull medium film is. It just seems a shame that Hollywood has forgotten that very thing...
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A balanced and well thought out talkback? A rare beast indeed. There is nothing wrong with Patriotism in movies dealing with history. As long as they a factaully accrurate. I can forgive the blatent flag waving of Armageddon for two reasons. 1) it was pure fiction and 2) Should such a thing as an asteroid turn up the USA would be the only natiom on Earth with the resources to do anything about it. Saving Private Ryan for all its faults, was accrurate but simply told from an American stand point. Again I can forgive that. I too have stood in the Graveyards of Normandy and have felt nothing but humility and awe at the sacrifice made by the men who fought and died for all of us. Entertaining war movies have a place as long as they educate which is the reason why I don't like a lot of John Wayne's WWII movies. To simply make as entertainment the death of millions is just so wrong it can't be defended. The great worry of mine is that judgeing from these talkbacks a hell of a lot of the American youth of today simply aint bothered to learn any history unless its spoonfed to them in 2hr long chuncks with 6-channel digital surround. You want to try living over here in Europe. We are still dealing with the aftermath of WWII. Hardly a year goes by without the British and German armies Bomb disposal units having to defuse an old WWII bomb thats been found in some building site. Water mines get washed up on our shores every now and again. We're still finding and prosicuting Nazi war criminals even now. These are things that are part of our future history so we should take care to not forget our past history either. How else are we going to learn. This apathy towards learning from the past is what is allowing things such Uganda's Genocide in which over 2 million have died so far. But unless they have oil or it's causeing us difficultly we ain't bothered no more. We all need to be educated. I remember a story on the BBC once about how when questioned some 5% of US teenagers thought that WWII started in 1941! This is the legacy that Hollywood has left us. Never forget just what a powerfull medium film is. It just seems a shame that Hollywood has forgotten that very thing...
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"The picture wasn't completely color timed, and a few effects were either still in animated form, or not completely finished. I can't wait to see the completed shot where a torpedo is dropped from a plane and we follow it into the water and towards a battle ship."
Call me cwazy, but I thought I saw that shot in the trailer. It looked pretty finished to me. -
Bob Dole was in WWII. Bob Dole was shot and paralyzed in WWII. Bob Dole was in a hospital for three years. Bob Dole can't eat popcorn while watching his friends die. Bob Dole needs to refill his Viagra...
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I hope with a film titled "Pearl Harbor" - that it has Hawaiians in the film as notable characters. Cuz I sure didn't see any in the trailer! Kinda like filming "Florida" without retirees or tan people in it.
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Q: How do you know if you're going to win a war?
A: America joins in.
When I first heard about this film I thought it would be another flag-waving exercise. And it's little more than this.
I'm a little concerned at this plot. First we see Ben Affleck 'saving the British' then we see Pearl Harbor, then we see 'America winning the war'. Is this film called Pearl Harbor or America Won The War? If it was the former, why not just show the bombing, like Tora Tora Tora did so well.
The fact is, of all the major participants, America had it lightly. American soil was bombed once between 1939 and 1945. Britain was bombed nightly to the same magnitude for at least four of those years. -
Actually to be completly accurate, American soil was fired upon twice. At Pearl Harbor and then a small army base named Fort Stevens on the Oregon coast was fired upon by a Japanese submarine. I can't remember the year, but the sub surfaced, fired 17 shells towards the base and left. Much to their disapointment the American servicemen were ordered not to return fire.
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Mar 03, 2001 10:09:10 AM CST
Senior Askew is off-kilter (askew...get it?...oh bother)
by not_a_jedi_yet
As an American living in Europe (you're not the only one), I meet a lot of folks who recognize that without America's help, we'd all be wearing swastikas right now. What they resent is that in the movies Americans ALONE are seen to win the war. I have yet to meet anyone (and I meet a LOT of people in my line of work) who appreciate America's important role in WWII. The only person I have met who insists on slamming America and sounding arrogant and ignorant is you, an American. You obviously have issues.
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Unbelievable Talkback. I certainly can understand where people's anger comes from on all sides. So I think I'll weigh in on the key issues. First off, I want to see this movie. I like Micheal Bay's stuff. Hell, I was a fan of his Meat Loaf videos. Look, he makes big, big movies. That's what he does. He makes grand, Megaplex movies. I dig those. It's a movie! That's what Hollywood likes to make. That's fine. I enjoy being swept up in them. Movies are popular entertainment, at least in America. That will never change. The majority of people don't want to see the kinds of movies most of us who read this site do. I wish they did too. But most people go to be anesthiticized. Nothing wrong with that. Hey, look Crouching Tiger did well. There's hope okay? And by the way, all that money from Pearl Harbor will filter down into the smaller films we all like to see. So I'm not gonna complain. As for The Patriot, yes it was stupid. Yes, the Britih bad guy thing was dumb. Yes, I wanted to see a more complex story and an opportunity was lost. That part where they go OUT of their way to let you know he wasn't a slave owner, I turned off the movie. It was so blatant, I couldn't take anymore. But look, it's Emmerich and Devlin. Did anybody see Kubrick's name on there? I know, it was the same mentality that propelled Griffith to find his "bad guys" in Birth of Nation. Though not quite as egregious, let's be honest. Frankly, the whole British thing was so dumb, I'm sorry you guys took it so seriously. It was laughable. As for the U-571 thing, I don't know what to tell you. I hope we won't let something as insignificant as a freaking Matt McCounaughy flick diminish those soldiers' contributions. It was an entertaining 2 hours but it didn't leave much of an impression. If people are going to get their history from a movie there's nothing you can do anyway. You want to talk about the merits of Hollywood historical films, I'll talk all day. It's a fun debate. But I cannot allow people to run down what American soldiers did. Everyone is free to do that. But not without me saying that I for one am eternally grateful for what my grandfather did in WW 2 and I can never pay him back for that. And I know that many Europeans feel that way about their grandfathers and thus are angry at Hollywood minimizing that. So I respect that sentiment but a movie in no way strips away what they accomplshed and bled for. And that generation was tougher. Perhaps what I always think about is what my grandmother explained to me about that time. They thought everything they had was at stake. That they HAD to go over there or evil would prevail. And it was evil. So while we can say FDR knew and whatever else, let's not insult the common soldier who wanted to do the right thing. It was much clearer then. So it makes it much easier for Hollywood who loves black and white to take that for its stories. Yes, history is written by the winners. So we won. So you're gonna get a few movies out of it. Don't go see them. That's fine. And look, if it all pisses you off so much, write a great script YOU think should get made. Maybe it will be. Like all those French guys in the 60's knew, the best critique of a movie is to make a movie.
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and cynical capitalism banned from earth!...
(btw thanx zerocorpse and jeffBailey for your contribution.)
so... seriously, what's the use of patriotism? why is it a good value? and if it wasn't after all?... nazis, japanese, and fascists had strong patriotic feelings too!
the main purpose of patriotism is to federate people together, alas mostly against other people! basically it's only a clan obedience... human species didn't evolve so much from our primate ancestors... even in the pacific context of the olympic games, patriotism is pathetic!...
but to those who don't see any real danger in hollywood bullshits, let me remind you that:
enrapturing and fascinate a bold audience with primary feelings, manipulated facts and simplified conception of the world, is not the appanage of Hollywood... that was precisely the main tool of Adolf Hitler!...
only the truth will set us free.
All of us. -
Mar 03, 2001 11:46:07 AM CST
This is not a fanboy movie...What is it doing here on this site?
by 0007
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Although I am really excited about Micheal Bay being on the project, but doesn't the fact that Jerry Bruchimer and Ben Afflect are a part of this cheapen it? I didn't like armageddon and I don't want a repeat. I bet one of the main hero's dies at the end to sacrafice himself to save everyone. Gone in 60 seconds is crap and so is Armageddon. I am also sick of Ben Afflect and Matt Dameon getting ever movie offer because they made one succesfull film. They aren't very good actors.
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Another crappy little bit about war:
It is illeagle for another countrys soldiers to kill and/or attack a differnt countrys leader. I.E. King,president, ruler, dictator, etc... I think its called the non-agression act. Its considered treason to dissobey it. Soldiers are nothing more then hired guns. I say we give both rulers a big stick and then all the soldiers who are sentineced to die in war can watch. Like gladiator. I can just see clinton in one corner and sadam in the other. someone should make a picture of that. -
That's what this movie is, and I hope it fails because TITANIC quite simply ruled and deserves to be the most successful movie of all time.
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I don't understand how you can call movies like this revisionist. They're not. They're stories. And as for all those people how are sick of american flag waving, all countries have the same. Personally I hate those jolly ol' english world war 2 films where the soldiers have tea and sandwiches before going out to kill some german chaps. God knows there were enough english boys own comic books, where there was high adventures had, foiling those german plans. I see Pearl Harbour as the same. Just a story. True, the worse thing is they sully the memory of the people who actually fought, Same as those old english comic books. But there you go. If money can be made by dilluting the truth, you can be guaranteed it will be done.
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look at all you people!
blah blah blah blah. After reading it all, sleeping on it, giving it much thought, here's my take.... I like pizza, and I always will. -
Oh, Michael, Oh, Michael. Mmmmmmph. Mmmmmph. It's so mmmmph BIG! Oh, your such a man. The manliest man. Mmmmmph. Look, it's up, it's up. It's in the air!
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hey phatjacck, I like pizzas (and burgers) too. but sometimes you should check what's in it!... or maybe it could explain your pseudo.
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First, on the one who posted "WHO CARES ABOUT Pearl Harbor?" Ask someone who survived it and lost a couple friends in it. I don't know how you guys can put down patriotism and sentiment shown for soldiers who died in a war protecting parts of this country when you rave over a movie that sympathizes with young, vulgar, asshole drug and alcohol users. I don't know, maybe it's because you ARE them.
Secondly, I can't imagine anyone putting down soldiers as being nothing more than "hired killers" unless they've never had to physically defend themselves before. You ever think that maybe regardless of how much money they get to fight, they wind up fighting for their SURVIVAL as well? And wouldn't you? Not just in war, but any situation?
There's one similarity between the United States and the movies. That is that they both used to stand for good things. Now, all they stand for are spoiled, ingrateful assholes who would rather kiss the feet of a useless drunk than give an honorable U.S. soldier a mere salute. Problem is, you people look at words like "freedom" and "liberty" and mistake it for permission to be rude and ungrateful.
As far as "Pearl Harbor" is concerned, I don't care what kind of a movie it is. Ben Affleck is a major detractor to me anyway. But if you see it and watch those Japanese thinking they're villians, you should look in the mirror when you get home. Anyone who hates patriotism and subtly puts U.S. soldiers in the same category as the mafia is no better than the Japanese and Germans were. In fact, in my humble and, to you, probably useless opinion, you're worse. -
Mar 03, 2001 2:28:11 PM CST
"I SHOW NO MERCY" sucks camel's dick (and so does every Bay bash
by looking-for-love
Some of you people remind me of the STUPID-ASS IGNORANT aliens in "Galaxy Quest." Some how, you idiots think like they do: That movies are Historical documents. get a life.________________________All you BAY bithches will pay $$$ to go see this movie, so stop whining.
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Movies used to understand the simple beauty in self sacrifice, the fact that giving away your life for the betterment of the world meant destroying everything you loved to your own eyes. This selfless and courageous act, which is always present in many soldiers in wars such as WWII, should not be taken lightly... Patriotism I feel is not the love for only your country, although this is how we take it to mean. By that standard, Stalin was the greatest patriot ever (no German shall cross *MY* rivers, set foot in *MY* cities...) But this is wrong. Patriotism is humbling one's self to the truth that a man can accomplish greater good through the expenditure of himself than he can *for* himself... and this is beautiful, romantic, yet serious... it is the stuff great cinema is made of. In WWII, despite what we all may believe in our hatred of the American military-industrial complex (which I personally despise), men lost their *lives*, those men gave them for our good, they gave to us the love of their wives, the faces of their children, their hopes for themselves as their lives would have continued... this should be seen as both the ugliest necessity and the most beautiful act which can be portrayed on screen, and I agree movies *can* make something beautiful of this. That having been said, movies can also disregard this and market themselves however they please... I might see Pearl Harbor, but if you are decrying it on principle - remember that there are so many movies in existence worth knowing on this subject! You're not all required only to follow the new releases. Snow Falling on Cedars is the greatest WWII movie I've seen released in the last 10 years, and yet it is modern and shows the cutting edge of artistic cinematography and structure... just rent that. Or better yet, read the book. Living in Seattle, I can tell you that the stories which remain in our community more often have to do with the internment camps to which our Japanese Americans were sent than the Bataan Death March or Iwojima. The war is not only felt by the soldiers, even though soldiers and weapons decide the war. There, rent that and skip Pearl Harbor if you want a sweet and human look at what the war meant to many of our Americans in America. Elsewhere in the world I know you can find your equivalents... and if you disagree with U-571 and Pearl Harbor and Armageddon, ignore Hollywood trash and spend your time actually watching or reading something more serious. It's there. Oh, and I've seen no-one mention the Greek resistence to the Italians and Nazis, or the Norwegian, or... great heroes, perhaps the greatest, can come from countries without atomic bombs and gigantic armies, don't forget that. If you claim to be in awe of heroism, forget who won and who lost and who brought the most guns to the table... remember that even the largest armies are made of individuals, it is on that level that you will find nobility, and on that level there were much more than British and Americans fighting the war. Saying that over 40 million people died because of Hitler is too dry, in those 40 million stories say there are at least 5 million of heroism. 5 million! More than you or I could know well, and more than we should dismiss so easily...
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"Spot? Where'd Spot go?", Ben Affleck shouts, to no one in particular. In the background, an airplane explodes as it is hit by a bomb from the evil Japanese empire. Alec Baldwin answers Affleck's call, "There's no time, man! We have to go!" Affleck will have none of it. "I've got to find him!" Cuba Gooding Jr. joins Ben in his rebellion. "Let's go, man! He can't be far." An aircraft carrier just off the coast spontaneously combusts, killing evil Japanese soldiers. "We'd better hurry!" Alec Baldwin shakes his head, as Cuba and Ben run off carrying gigantic guns, pausing to kiss their girlfriends goodbye. "I love you more than anything," says Ben to his girlfriend. "I love you more than anything," says Cuba to his girlfiend. [insert flashy high-speed montage of search for Spot] "There he is!" shouts Cuba, as he spots Spot. Somehow Spot has been entangled in a bloody American flag, has fallen off the harbor, and a giant evil Japanese torpedo is heading straight for him! Ben Affleck takes off his shirt and jumps in the icy cold water. "I think Spot broke a leg!" he shouts back to Cuba. "Can you get there before the torpedo?" Cuba shouts.
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Mar 03, 2001 2:31:29 PM CST
people get really touchy when these type of movies come out
by phatjacck
and you have a good reason to. It's very hard to please an audience with so many different heritages. But I gotta admit, I am getting a little sick about making other countries the antagonists in our movies.(except in indiana jones movies).As for the guy that said little kids can't act..I'll use a quote from the dude: Yeah,well..that's like your opinion,man. That little girl in the Patriot did a good job, I think. She did make me cry and still does everytime she says "Daddy don't leave me!"..freakin' tearjerker. and yes you should sometimes check your burger and pizza, especially the chicken mcnuggets at mcdonalds.
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A bloody flag being picked out of the water? Can I vomit now! It makes me sick that so many young, brave Canadians died along side Americans during WW2 yet you idiots still make jokes about Canadians never fighting in a war! WE kicked your ass during our only war in 1812 remember? Canada is a far superior country.
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i just realized that i mixed posts....oh well see you at the mummy forum hehe
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Whoever said Lord of the Rings and Pearl Harbor are vitual locks for oscar nominations is dreaming. Bruckheimer taking the oscar for best film?! yea right...
same with Lord of the Rings. It's not going to be a life changing experience so don't build it up. -
Last time I heard this movie is about the Americans and the Japanese (and a little about the English)._______________So what's wrong with flag-waving. Next thing you know, someone is going to get offended when we celebrate the 4th of July. yes, WE ARE THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. WE ARE THE WORLD'S POLICEMEN. AND AT LEAST I CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT KNOWING THAT A BOMB WON'T GET DROPPED ON MY HOUSE (NYC & LA people excluded)._________________And since when do the oscars award best movie to movies that are life changing? I have yet to see a movie that changes my life....
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At no point did I intend to infer that every other country outside of the USA is worthless and had no part in WWII. The fact is that they did (except for the french) and they were suffering many months before the US joined in. We were the Allied Forces...allies...that word actually meant something back then. Britian and the US are still very close in their foreign policies. My point was simply this: if the rest of the world dislikes flag-waving, history changing American war movies, make your point not by bitching, but by not going to see the movies. When the foriegn grosses over these movies start nose-diving, Hollywood will get its head out of its ass and make a change for the better. Yes, I am disgusted at the historical inaccuracies of our movies over here. It is painful because the sacrifice of many, many soldiers that were not American is ignored. These men were as good as any American, and they paid for it in blood just as we did. Just dont start ripping on ALL of the USA. We are not all like that. Hollywood is notorious for doing things like that. I dislike and I hope it will change. But America is not a horrible country. We do some good once in awhile. We have our dirty secrets like every other country does. Yes, we did use the atomic bomb, but it was either us or someone else. And we havent misused it since. At that time, we used it out of what we thought was necessity. So lets not use crap like the Pearl Harbor movie as a yard stick for the rest of this country. When every single movie that comes out of every single country outside of America is completely historically acurate without fail, then you can start bitching. Until then, just dont go see the films. I know I wont.
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Mar 03, 2001 3:12:38 PM CST
Then, looking-for-love, you haven't seen any good movies...
by penny dreadful
And Bay ain't gonna help ya.
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I've had experiences that have changed my life. But this IS ONLY A MOVIE. I do not take things (like a movie or WWF wresting)seriously. They're entertainment. What I do take seriously is my family life, my work, my friends, etc. Movies or entertainent for that matter aren't a source of income for me. i do not work in those areas, so it's all irrelevant.
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Don't need to see this. I remember seeing "Midway" in the theater when I was a kid. Oh m'god. NOW, thats a movie. Bridge on the River Kwai - another movie. This will be called pop entertainment. I really like/liked Thin Red Line. That was a movie examining the horrors of war and its effects on the people involved. I haven't seen The Patriot - cuz I know I ain't gonna like it. I'm tired of these light and fluffy pop entertainment movies - I want a real big bad movie that isn't afraid to show all sides of war on the screen. And while I do enjoy Con Air, The Rock - they're all fluffy. Which is what Michael Bay is best at. Nothing too deep, keep it superficial - and he'll do fine. Pearl Harbor needed someone with more of an adult attitude to direct it. Ain't gonna be worth my $9
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sorry Scudd, I agree with most of what you said excepted this:
"At no point did I intend to infer that every other country outside of the USA is worthless and had no part in WWII. The fact is that they did (except for the french)...". where did you learn french involvment during WWII? war movies? Did you forget France was part of the allied force, despite the occupation ?... where did you get this opinion? Historical facts, or american war movies?... this is a perfect example of what can cause the cultural impact of hollywood bullshits... I don't think you know what you're speakin about, but THIS was an offense to all french soldiers and resistants who spread their blood with so many others... thanks hollywood!
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Well, I'm a Canadian myself and don't find flag waving movies offensive at all or anything like that; BUT I do see what the big deal is to some. Just imagine if you were watching a WWII film about England and all throughout the movie there's these subtle shots of the British flag being "artistically" waved during battle. Little kids playing in front of it ect. It looks ridiculous and misplaced and cheesy right ? (Well... to me it does at least.) A flag is very rarely what is on the mind of a soldier during battle. You see, NO ONE has ever died to save a flag. A flag is a piece of cloth. They died to save freedom. Which, BTW, is the freedom to make silly flag waiving films. So be it, and let Micheal Bay make his films in peace. If you don't think you'll like it, then do exactly what I'll do on opening day and DON'T WATCH IT !!! Oh and way-to-go guy who complained about anti-American sentiment, then turned around and said "We're the best country in the world". Got a little secret to tell ya: England was the best country in the world in 1938. Nothing lasts forever dude; *nothing*. I think the US is a fine country and gets crapped on a lot because of the words and actions of a few stupid ass politicians; I'm not such a dimwit that I think THE WHOLE COUNTRY marches to the same drummer. Some people are morons, some people ain't; some people I agree with and some people I don't. It's called SOCIETY. Well, laters all. HB777
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also, just wanted to add that most of us have grandfathers or uncles who fought in wars (I do), and the way to honour them is not to yell at each other about who's country managed to kill the most Germans/Japanese/Vietnamese/Koreans/Serbians/etc. It's an ugly business. Patriotism should be a quiet, personal emotion, and not one blared from a 60 foot high screen. Americans surely MUST understand why it drives other nations (especially its allies) nuts when Hollywood, for the sake of an extra $50 million on the domestic market, ignores or reduces other country's efforts to a sidebar and footnote. Michael Bay has pretty much proven that he cannot be trusted with some of the flag-waving goop in Armageddon. By the sound of things, Ben Affleck will pretty much win the Battle of Britain ALONE in this movie. I mean seriously, how do you EXPECT the British to feel about this? Particularly when they know that so many schoolchildren the world over will take it all as fact. All I want is for people like Bay is for them to tone it down a bit, and think of the world outside their own borders. Don't get me wrong, by the way: all things being equal, I actually regard myself as pro-American in many respects. I personally am very grateful that America has and will continue to have the role of world policeman. Without it, the western democratic model wouldn't stand a chance. I shudder to think of a planet run by the likes of the Taliban, Saddam, Russians or Chinese.
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As much as I love my country, I had thought we had outgrown this sort of propaganda.
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Mar 03, 2001 5:10:02 PM CST
Animal Crackers helped save the world from a GIANT ASTEROID!
by regis travolta
So it's logical to assume that those same animal crackers will motivate Affleck to GET THOSE DAMN JAPS and SHOOT THEM OUT OF THE SKY! Animal Crackers: When Uncle Sam Wants You, just ask for animal crackers in your mess kit!
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I hate canadians, they are second class frenchies. One time a candian was talkin shit about the US and I saw a bunch of young americans beat the crap out of him with an american flag. It was awesome. Poetic Justice. Why can't all candians be like Ray Bourque? Oh Yeah the canadians did good in WWII. Your bicycle divisions really helped to liberate france. Oh yeah, the candian navy was so key in the battle of Midway, And who could forget that glorious scene when canadians raised the their stupid flag over mt sirabachi. It was canadians who saved the english, not Americans, go back to icy banana republic you boob.
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no way will Pearl Harbor bring best picture....I don't care how good it is.
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I mean these are reviews from different people right? Even if its a local thing, one guy came in from out of town. Hmmm...
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Wait in line for healthcare? At least we have healthcare. Last year over 46 million Americans had no healthcare of any kind and were basically screwed. You think you have a right to criticize our system now? " hehe".
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I really liked tritium's post, and agree with it. It was VERY inspiring, and all true. I am a semi-history buff, my pop is more of one, actually he is quite a large history buff. My grandfather was on a jeep-carrier in WWII that was hit by a kamikaze (sp?) and he narrowly escaped death. My grandmother has told my mom that he was never the same after WWII, and very uncomfortable around fires because of some of the stuff he saw. War IS hell, and everyone should understand that, war movies should communicate the horror of war. Like the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan, that was real, and shocking. The general public does not know much about history, or even read that much, but the general public does go to movies, and that makes movies a powerful tool. War movies should serve, in addition to being engaging, as a realistic visual representation of what war really is. If you do not know your history, it is destine to repeat itself, and that is damn scary, considering literally no one my age (20 yrs) knows jack shit about the trench warfare and world war I, and very little about WWII.
I have been thinking about it, actually, over the last couple of days, and the Japanese wanted to conquer us, as I am sure the Germans did. Had we not stood up and fought, where would we be know, under the rule of or enslaved to Germany and Japan? For all of the crooked shit our gov't does nowadays, and has done since 1776, when it comes down to the life or death of freedom, we have always fought for freedom and liberty. It is amazing how quickly we can forget that.
Its not that the general public that does not care, I think, so much as how you show us what happened. If you tell us that children and babies were killed in WWII for being Jewish via a textbook, they acknowledge it, but soon forget. If you show them a graphic scene in a movie of a baby being killed or mutilated, people are horrified and will likely not forget that. I remember finally being able to understand all of the WWII vets I had ever met who were a little strange, after seeing Saving Private Ryan. Speilberg shows WHY the old man at the Normandy cemetery was crying, by showing what he went through, and who he lost. I love when movies can do that. To me, and a majority of people i think, that is more real (not more important) than what I can read in a text book. -
is there another movie called heat besides the one I saw? the Val Kilmer with long hair movie... ??? this was good?
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Yeah, Harry, what are there three or four reviews about the film, that's hardly tons! Only one of them had anything even remotely resembling a criticism. Post the others. Has Michael Bay now got you in his pocket just like Kevin Smith has for years?
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...continues?! I hope not! As a History teacher, I get angry when history textbooks have inaccurate or totally false statements about historical events. We deserve the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It will be very disturbing to see this movie if it tries to rewrite history with the false claim that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack when our government knew about it way in advance and we had radar data showing the Japanese planes approaching Pearl Harbor. Read "Pearl Harbor Attack No Surprise", "December 7, 1941 . . . a Day of Deceit" and "The Myths of Pearl Harbor" at the following links for more info:
http://ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p119_Stolley.html
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/001207Stinnett.html
http://metalab.unc.edu/pha/myths/index.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/
This event in history is similar to how the U.S. government lied to their citizens in order to enter the Vietnam War. Read "30-Year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched Vietnam War" at the following link for more info:
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html
May 25, 2001 will be a day that will live in infamy if we continue to lie to the public and the world about Pearl Harbor and other historical events. It would be a great disservice to the memories of all the men, women and children who died around the world during WWII. We should make every effort to boycott this film if it continues to perpetrate the lie. -
I agree-- I have no faith in Michael Bay. Visually, I think the movie will be great --but I don't think the final cut is "jazz" everyone up. Entertaining at best. I'm looking forward to seeing Blow.
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that's right what you said about animal crackers was so dam funny! hahahaha....you're cool dude ^_^
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Some day some smart guy (i.e. not Bay, Spielberg, etc) will make a proper movie about WW2 that is honest, factual, entertaining and doesn't revel in the killing of Germans/Japanese/Austrians/Italians/etc. but ends with a sigh of relief that it was possible. The day of 'America Won The War' movies is coming to a close. One day a director will come up with the novel idea of making a movie that reveals the two main reasons why we aren't all living under the Nazis now: the Russians, and LUCK. And I'm afraid to say Saving Private Ryan did nothing for me. Sure, it was tragic, but lets not forget that it was the pure arrogance of Eisenhower who said the Yanks on Omaha didn't need aerial cover from the RAF. The reason the Brit and Canadian landings went so well was because of aerial bombardment and RAF cover. No wonder Eisenhower was sidelined in favour of Montgomery for the rest of the war...
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Mar 04, 2001 7:28:24 AM CST
Is Randall "Braveheart" Wallace a good screenwriter? Or does h
by the_lion
I have my reasons for asking. Of course "Braveheart" rules. Anyone who doubts that will have their fucking throat ripped out by me. But listen, I read the first draft of "Braveheart" - and it wasn't nearly as good as the finished movie. The action and plot overall were similar, but it lacked dialogue and some of the details that made the movie leaugues better than, say, "Rob Roy". Example? The first Randall Wallace draft dialogue didn't have any of the clever exchanges between William and Muron, like "But that will all change when my sons arrive..." Or them sitting on the mountaintop, with William saying, "Are you in the habit of riding off in the rain with strangers?" "It was the best way to make you leave." Or William speaking to Muron in French and Latin. That dialogue was FUCKING GOOD. It's hard to write those kind of love scenes... and I wonder if Randall Wallace even helped with those rewrites? ---------- His background and everything Wallace has done since would suggest not. Before "Braveheart", his only credit is some stupid TV movie from like 1985. Then, wham, 10 years later, "Braveheart". I think Wallace wrote the overall plot structure for "Braveheart," but that movie was made in the details, which Mel Gibson and cinematographer John Toll must be mainly credited for. ------And don't forget, when Wallace was given complete control over his own next script, "Man in the Iron Mask," the results were HORRIFYING. So I'm wondering how Wallace's writing will play in "Pearl Harbor"? In a recent interview, he tried to put some distance between himself and the movie, talking about how Bruckheimer wanted him to change things around to make the characters more "easily understandable", but how Wallace refused. He said Bruckheimer's changes, mainly to dialogue, made the film seem "heavy handed." I believe it!! And now these posts are suggesting an "Armageddon-like" opening.... NO!!!!!!!!! That cheesy style of characterization SUCKS!!!! THAT'S THE WORST!!!!!!! So I'm approaching "Pearl Harbor" with a little trepidation. I'm guessing that 1) Wallace can't write that well, except for establishing an overall plot structure and 2) Bruckheimer will chees-i-fy the details and dialogue to near cringe levels. Comments?
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Mar 04, 2001 7:52:49 AM CST
I concur. I also want to see how big I can make the subject line
by filmjester
I have to admit I am going to see this movie. I am going to see it because of Micheal Bays cinemotography. I know most of you people think its crap. But its an art, and one I am interested in. The movie itself will suck. The script, dialoge and story will suck harder then scobby doo. But most people don't care about that. Thats why movies like american beauty, fargo, and gladiator win awards. People are stupid! They just like thinking that the war and all those deaths were not in vain. That they were killed after saving tons of people and out lasting huge explosions. War sucks and Speilburg is the one who portrayed it realisticly. I have family who served in WWII. My Grandfather even has a purple heart. War is not a big heroic story, which, no doubt, bruchimer will portray. Its going to suck.
Its kinda why I saw Episode One 2x. It wasn't because the movie was good, it was because there is one cool part in it, thats worth seeing again. This is of course the Darth Mall fights. Ray Park won't be able to save the sequel. -
You poor, poor pitiful man. I mean, I feel sorry for those whose entire existence centers around this site, but I feel worse for you than for them. When I look at them I feel pathos, but when I look at you I feel outright grief. They need to get their head out of their ass, but you need to realize yours is up there in the first place.
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* "Are you private Ryan? We have bad news for you, your brothers are dead." * "Boo-hoo, how could that happen?" * "They were killed in combat." * "What? But they're only children!" * "Uh, aren't you Jim-Bob Ryan?" * "No, I'm Billy-Bob Ryan" * "Oops, sorry, wrong private Ryan." ***** AAAAAAARGH!!! This scene was so awful, so ridiculous, so pathetic, so plain STUPID... it has simply annihilated what would otherwise be a pretty good movie. Spielberg, what the fuck were you thinking?! ***** By the way, Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer should watch "Ronin" and "The Insider" a thousand times, so they'd learn that he doesn't need a camera with Parkinson's disease to make breathtaking movies.
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Have to agree. Spielberg was pretending to be a hack director with Saving Private Ryan. Hack directors need to show the Stars and Stripes every few minutes to remind the denser people who the good guys are. Hack directors succumb to the 'cool' culture (Barry Pepper's cringe-worthy character). Hack directors muck up the best battle sequence in cinema history by glorifying war and revelling in killing (the whole "Let 'em burn!" bit at the end of the Omaha Beach sequence). Hack directors feel the need to add superfluous and sentimental book-ends to tug the heart strings of the Titanic fans in the audience. Man, what a come down from Schindler's List... doesn't bode well for AI...
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A camerman with parkensend disease. HAW HAW HAW. Very funny. I doubt the camera shots will be able to save this movie. Maybe Micheal Bay and Speilburg should combine there skills to make a great movie.
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Needless to say without bay bruchimer would be broke.
Jerry Bruchimer - Micheal Bay = A Really crapy movie, ie. gone in 60 seconds
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...frankly, yes, it was a movie and not a documentary...BUT that's besides the point. WHY THE FUCK can't American filmakers show the heroes of a REAL LIFE BATTLE as being the REAL LIFE HISTORICAL citizens of a REAL non-American country? Is it THAT hard to believe that a battle was won by the Brits, considering that it ACTUALLY WAS? How fucking dumb do these studio dicks think we actually are? If it's merely because they believe American audiences don't want to see non-Yank heroes, that's because they've almost never been given the chance. When they have (Bond, Zorro, The Rock) in movies that are actually good, the heroes nationality hasn't hurt the flick's success. Do you like Indianna Jones because he's American? No, we like him because he's cool as hell and charismatic into the bargain and THAT is what matters in a cinematic hero. Believe it or not, a film actually makes around 50% of its gross OUTSIDE the States so why distance half the world's cinema-going population with your superiority-complex patriotism? No-ones buying it and you shouldn't be selling it.
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I agree. What's the point in making a film 'loosely based' on real events? That suggests they don't have the imagination to come up with an original idea. Either go the whole hog or don't bother. If the Brits captured Enigma, why not show them doing it? If the Poles were a major part of the Battle of Britain, why not show them doing it? Bond is absolutely the case in point (but what's this nonsense I hear about them getting a Yank in after Brosnan quits and moving it all to the CIA?). The fact that he's a British agent is irrelevant. In fiction, nationality is irrelevant. He could be an Iraqi for all I care. But it's in supposedly historical movies that play strip poker with the facts... very naughty indeed!
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Mar 04, 2001 11:53:24 AM CST
Unfortunately, many people do believe what they see in movies...
by asmus teis
which is why so many Americans here believe that the United States won World War Two. Pearl Harbor will only enforce this. As for Saving Private Ryan, just think about the first shot of the movie: a waving American flag. Americans like to feel patriotic and that they're better than everyone else, so they pay to see this jingoism and therefore Hollywood keeps making it. Why do you think Armageddon and Independence Day opened on the fourth of July weekend? As for WW2, this movie is not about it at all; it is about making an action video game about an important historical event while at the same time attempting to brainwash the viewer to think that the Americans won WW2 and that the United States is the best country in the world. There have been lots of movies like this before, and judging by some of these previous comments, a lot of you believe it. But here's a secret: THE UNITED STATES DID NOT WIN WORLD WAR TWO! If anyone did, it were the Russians because they sacrificed MILLIONS of their own lives for THEIR own Russian patriotism and thus wore out the German army and Hitler, who made a couple mistakes of his own. And before that, the British fought the Germans for years to keep freedom alive, and without them Germany would have won.
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Anyone else think this is getting REALLY old? Go find some "Who really won WWII" message board people.
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Mar 04, 2001 1:39:22 PM CST
Brothers - we should be struggling against the common enemy!
by roosterbooster
"THE JUDEAN PEOPLES' FRONT!"
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we were fighting that war for TWO YEARS before the US came in. Canadian foot soldiers were THE BEST at close quarters fighting - acknowledged as such by all the Allieds. Honestly, all the Allies - including the Polish (who my father trained in Vancouver) and anyone else involved should feel proud. That's what it comes down to - and why I think that anyone posting should note if they had a family member involved in the war because at least then there are even odds the opinion about to be expressed MIGHT be an INFORMED one!!!!
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Mar 04, 2001 1:53:19 PM CST
Michael Bay's direction may be irritating to critics but he know
by jp3183
His first/last three films were blockbuster hits of the summer. He does have fans and I'm predicting that even if all the critics gave Pearl Harbor a bad review, lot people will still see it.
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That particular scene was definitely needed in the film. It showed just how we all thought Private Ryan will react to the news. But when they finally found him he reacted differently and wanted to stay in battle. Why? Well, it shows the difference of a man who's been in a big cross fire and a man who has not. That's why he's so thankful in the end for their sacrifice to save him. It's that simple.
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Mar 04, 2001 2:55:43 PM CST
Let's All Kill Michael Bay Just Because He's Where We Would Like
by byumogul
I can't wait to see Pearl Harbor. I loved Armageddon and the Rock. Why all this teenage-I-Wish-I-Was-A-Sucessful-Hollywood-Director-But-I'm-Not-So-I'll-Bitch-About-Those-Who-Are angst and rage? Bay is a very talented entertainer, and he's very passionate about his work. Bruckheimer knows what people want to see, how to provide escapist entertainent that dazzles and delights. Is it powerful? yes. Is it vaild? yes. Does it serve some higher, lofty purpose? Not exactly, but then neither does most of the artsy-wierd-stuff that is just artsy and wierd for the sake of being artsy and wierd. I worked for Sundance this year, trust me, there's a lot of cheap crap out there. So...congrats to the people that worked their asses of to get this movie made, from Bay and Brukheimer to the guys on the IATSE Local that worked crew. It's a Hollywood movie baby, and it's gonna be amazing.
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No, the true enemy is THE PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!
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I don't know who said it, or if its a combination but this is a movie, not a documentary, if you want to see what the war is really like watch the history channel.-thats a load of crap, just because its a movie doesn't mean it can't have some substance and perhaps some truth, there are a ton of great true war storys that could be made into great movies. Its just the fact that filmmakers want the story to be a tragedy or heroic, instead of what it is, bland. There is a mix of tragic and heroic events in the war, and the great storys have both. In regards to Saving Pvt Ryan, My grandfater was in WWII and there was one bridge left that they were trying to protect, the japanese couldn't find it and were just bombing in mid-air. He took a piece of shrapnal in the arm and got to go to france for med treatment and becuase of it got a purple heart. Granted there wasn't a Private Ryan on the Bridge, the story is still true. I even got to hold and see the heart, the shrapnal, and the newspaper article with the brige on it.
P.S.Who said the americans won the war? Neither side did, we both lost. So are you saying your a nazi? -
Dominic Sena directed Go in 60 seconds.
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apparently many TBers don't see any problem in falsifying history at any degree when the goal is to entertain... I do!... all right, fiction is not documentary, but it's not because you don't wanna be boring that you can say anything (excepted if your aiming at a comedy)!...
let's imagine a french jingoistic movie depicting D-Day: thousands of US rednecks are hiding in the sand of Omaha Beach totally paralysed by the german batteries rifles canons etc... D-Day's gonna be a failure if a solution is ,not found! happily a couple of french resistants are send on the backs of nazis (Vincent Perez and Isabelle Adjani?... with their amazing fighting skills and courage, they infiltrate each blockhouses one by one and destroy them... add a bit of tragedy (Perez sacrifice)... the thousands of soldiers rise up and give Adjani a standing ovation... with a tear in the eye, she brandishes a french Flag and run to free Paris in a moving and idiot speech "my mission will not be fulfill till Paris won't be free... now you call me Joan of Arc!"... The End!...
as a comedy, it could be hilarious, but treated in a very serious and entertaining way, it would be unbearable!
would you still say: I don't care about the real facts, It's only a movie! It's "Pariswood" ???!!! -
Listen you twiggy little bitch, I know a lot about WWII.
For example, I know that the canadians did a good job fighting off the koreans in the battle of the bulge, I also know that if Churchill didn't defeat hitler in their historic "fisticuff atop the eiffel tower" all the limeys in the world would be speaking german instead of their form of "english". I read plenty of books about wwII, in fact I'm writing one now, it is called "How America saved Britain's ass while the candians sat around and rode bikes". I'm looking for a publisher right now, but nobody seems to be biting... If you can't tell by now i am joking you take yourself too seriously you arrogant bastard. -
I agree with previous posts on the subject of H-Town and its total lack of Historical Facts: My mother is from Canton, China. During WWII, the Japanese invaded China and the first targets were the villages in Canton that lined the coast of China. My mother lived in one of those villages. She was a baby at the time and her older sister was murdered by the Japanese. Knowing this when I was a kid made me want to know more about this war. The historical facts then and especially now. Since the last few years more information is being brought out. Of course, I've grown and have no hatred towards the Japanese (my boyfriend is 1/2 Japanese). Anyways, I also remember during a review of The Hurricane when Roger Ebert actually said that historical facts is really no biggee that movies are for entertainment. He was saying this due to all the stuff in the movie that is being proven to be inacurate to what actually happened, etc. I couldn't believe he said this. For god's sake, kids are using movies these days like they are the "Cliff Notes" of history. This is scary - movies like Pearl Harbour are scary.
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I hate Michael Bay movies because it's just a bunch of loud action with very little story.
I think James Cameron is a genius and if you are looking at the very best of the "Epic" movie directors he is definitely on top.
I like him because he actually thinks about what is presented onto the screen...action should be used to tell a story not be some sappy crappy fuckin MTV video...jesus! Cameron is a master story teller enuf said. -
Cameron IS good at epic action (Terminator 2, Aliens) but he's also a patriot at heart. Look at Titanic where the Americans run around rescuing children and even the bad guy (Billy Zane) has a good side whilst the British crew bumble around like fools and kill themselves. Some descendents of the suicidal officer took Fox to court after they could prove it didn't happen. They got quite a sum, I recall. The point is, the most interesting Pearl Harbor film would be from a non-American viewpoint. Someone who could take an outsider's view and look at this humiliating tragedy that moved an entire nation to war WITHOUT getting caught up in all the flag-waving. Ridley Scott would have been great.
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Sprocketholes unite!
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"Let us have a moment of silence for all those men and women who so valiently gave their life in the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the many more hundreds of millions of lives lost in the war that followed. (beat) ALLRIGHT!! LET'S PARTY 'TILL DAWN CUZ' I"M THE KING NOW!!"
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Ok Dunbar, a last reply just aside... I won't treat you as ignorant about WWII, but there's obviously one thing you don't know about foreign movies. The reason why you don't see war movies adopting a foreign viewpoint is only because you live in US, not because there is not any.
the US film industry is very healthy but very protectionist too.
foreign movies have rarely the chance to be distributed fairly on your territory, excepted if they perfectly fit with the hollywood tone (Besson or Annaud for instance). different movies are released in very few theaters so they'll never meet success on box office. therefore Hollywood studios can keep on saying they just do what the public asks for, by actually restraining the public taste by offering only one or two different "soups"!
have you seen "the shadow army" (1969,Melville)? "underground"(1995, Kusturica)? will you see "Harrisson's flowers" this year?...
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Ok Dunbar, a last reply just aside... I won't treat you as ignorant about WWII, but there's obviously one thing you don't know about foreign movies. The reason why you don't see war movies adopting a foreign viewpoint is only because you live in US, not because there is not any. the US film industry is very healthy but very protectionist too. foreign movies have rarely the chance to be distributed fairly on your territory, excepted if they perfectly fit with the hollywood tone (Besson or Annaud for instance). different movies are released in very few theaters so they'll never meet success on box office. therefore Hollywood studios can keep on saying they just do what the public asks for, by actually restraining the public taste by offering only one or two different "soups"! have you seen "the shadow army" (1969,Melville)? "underground"(1995, Kusturica)? will you see "Harrisson's flowers" this year?...
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"Americans dropped 2 atomic bombs and killed millions of Japanese.."
I'm not sure which is worse, your math skills or your understanding of history.
Each bomb killed roughly 40,000 Japanese. Far less than number of Chinese the Japanese killed. Far less than the number of Filipinos the Japanese killed. Hell, probably less than the number of Japanese killed themselves, ordering their own troops into suicidal human wave attacks against the US Marines.
Read about the Rape of Nanking, the slaughter in Manchuria, the Bataan Death March, the occupation of Guam, the occupation of the Phillipines, the human experiments would make Dr Mengele puke, the rape camps set up for the pleasure of Japanese soldiers, the inhumane treatment of POWs, & an attack on the USA without a formal declaration of war.
The Japanese were no better than the Nazis. When the Germans began to retreat to the Fatherland, Hitler began sending the plans and research on the German atomic bomb to the Japanese. Pardon me if I don't shed a tear. -
Umm... some of you people need to find something else to do with your lives, rather than pointing out all the negativity around you. The reason you refuse to like this film is because it stands for all that is good about this country... and this is just a guess here - "patriotism" is not on your list of better character traits. If you were expecting a documentary, check out the History Channel... if you were expecting an entertaining glimpse at American history, this is as good a movie as any... but if you were expecting to hate it because of your personal attitudes towards the suits that put it altogether, then you found what you were looking for... contempt. Here's a clue: Next time you submit a review, have something "intelligent" to say... otherwise post it somewhere else like: "iamanidiot.com"
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Firstly he's canadian, and if you look at all his films they all carry a very negative view on government and higher powers. If you need real proof read Cameron's scriptment for Avatar, it's basically a futuristic tale that metaphorically slams at the suffering of Native Americans at the hands of "the world's greatest nation" (vomit).
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