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HERC Reviews Joss Whedon's New BUFFY!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
BUFFY 5.16 FAQ
WHAT’S IT CALLED?
“The Body.”
WHO’S RESPONSIBLE?
It was written and directed by series mastermind Joss Whedon. Whedon’s last episode was November’s Tara-centric “Family” (the rerun of which airs next week).
WHAT DOES TV GUIDE SAY?
“After months of fighting and ostensibly overcoming a brain tumor, Joyce (Kristine Sutherland) dies unexpectedly and in a manner seldom seen on Buffy -peacefully and quietly. Reeling from the shock of discovering her mother's lifeless body on the living-room sofa, Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) manages to pull herself together enough to deliver the news to an already emotionally fragile Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) - whose overwhelming denial makes fighting the boundless forces of evil look like child's play.”
THE BIG NEWS?
Wah! Hercules “The Strong” weeps like a little girl throughout the final half-hour! He’s watched the episode three times, and it happens every time! Alyson Hannigan makes him lose it, and he can’t get it back until the credits roll!
WELL, HOW DOES THAT WORK?
Hannigan convinces us that Willow is hurting, and we love Willow, and we start hurting too! I defy any true fan of this show to get through “The Body” without Kleenex. It’s as reliable a trigger for tears as the ending of “It’s A Wonderful Life.”
SO IT’S SAD?
The cast gets a whole different kind of workout this week, and I’d put their performances against anything nominated for an Oscar this year. If this episode doesn’t garner a boatload of Emmy nominations, I’m going to start my own fucking television academy! God bless Joss Whedon and God bless the United States of America!
IT’S NOT FUNNY?
No, it’s funny too. There’s some hilarious “Godfather II”-evoking material early in the first act (particularly some geniusy Willow lines about Santa) designed to make us yearn for everything the Scoobs have lost. But mostly the episode is sad.
WHAT ISN’T TV GUIDE TELLING US?
“The Body” is a DIFFERENT kind of “Buffy.” It’s REALLY different. Even more different than recent Whedon-directed episodes like “Hush” and “Restless.”
WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING “DIFFERENT?”
Most “Buffy” episodes are fast-paced, utilitarian and very much a product of their medium, every moment crammed with plot, suspense, pathos, or comedy. “The Body” feels at times like something Jim Jarmusch or David Lynch might make. It’s dream-like, comprised of indelible moments: Buffy adjusting her mother’s skirt, Dawn’s friend flashing a message, Anya’s lost look as she stares out a passenger window.
WHAT’S OUR FIRST CLUE THAT THIS ONE IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT?
No clip package. The episode begins by reprising the final shots of the prior episode.
HOW ELSE DOES IT DIFFER?
Aside from Nerf Herder’s title theme, there’s no music. (I think; it’s hard to concentrate when you're consumed with sobbing.) And though it’s certainly among the most cinematic episodes of “Buffy” ever made, “The Body” also feels like a stageplay at times. The episode is comprised of only four scenes, one for each act.
WHERE DO THESE FOUR SCENES TAKE PLACE?
a) Buffy’s house,
b) Dawn’s school,
c) Willow’s dorm, and
d) Sunnydale Memorial Hospital.
HOW DID JOYCE DIE?
“Looks like an aneurism,” says the doctor in the final act. “Sudden hemmoraging from a ruptured arterial vessel near where the tumor was removed.”
DO WE MEET THE GUY WHO SENT JOYCE THE FLOWERS?
No.
ANY SIGN OF ANGEL?
No.
ANY SIGN OF RILEY?
No.
ANY SIGN OF BEN/GLORY, DRU, HARMONY, DREG, JINX, THE KNIGHTS, WARREN OR SPIKE’S FEMBOT?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no and no. Even Spike sits this one out.
COME ON, HERC, GIVE US ONE BIG JUICY SPOILER!
Okay, but this one’s so big and cool, I’m going to say it backwards, like Zatanna! !ssik neercsno tsrif rieht erahs wolliW dna araT
TELL US HOW TO SQUANDER OUR LAST SWEEPS TUESDAY, O MIGHTY HERCULES!
The WB’s “Buffy” at 8:00, the WB’s “Angel” at 9:00, and MTV’s “Road Rules/Real World Challenge” at 10:00. Tape ABC’s “The Mole” at 8:00 and Fox’s “Dark Angel” at 9:00. Buy a TiVo and record Fox Family’s 2-hour “Freaks & Geeks” block at 8:00.
HERC’S RATING FOR “BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER” 5.16?
****
The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:
**** better than most motion pictures
*** actually worth your valuable time
** as horrible as most stuff on TV
* makes you quietly pray for bulletins
God doesn’t want you! But I still do!
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I am anxious to watch tomorrow nights episode, but i have a feeling i will have a rough time with it, much like the ER when Lucy died. But TV is most impressive when it can make you care for and empathize with its fictional characters. should be a real empathic episode.
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I am first..
yes..
I am first..
yes..
Now, I haven't seen more than two episodes of buffy.
I did however see the original movie with Luke Perry. That was ok. -
Oooh Darth Joxer..you will regret being first! That was your first mistake..I will have my revenge..
someday..someday soon..very soon..
Or not. I don't know really. This whole talkback thing is kinda silly if you think about it. Everybody tries to act real silly, or cool, or tries to make a valid point and then milks it. Kinda weird. This really is a geek haven. I used to watch alot of The Real World, and then I realized how stupid it all was. I shouldn't be watching these people live their lives.. I should be living my own life! Then comes AICn..
why do we revel in small tidbits about the spiderman movie, or the new AI trailer? Does it fill some kind of void? I don't want to sit and read little tidbits all day. I want to make the tidbits. I want to be the one making the news, not reading it. I think we all should unite, and chase our pipe dreams.
Thank you. -
How cool to be the first to post on a "Buffy" topic! I've been watching for three years and- for my money- the show has progressed from "very good" (Season 1) to "great" (Season 2) to "fantastic" (Season 3) to "brilliant" (last Season) to damn-near "genius" this season, while achieving transcendence the last three. Anyhow, thanks Herc for posting your review early; after reading the news of the ep on this site I've been eagerly anticipating how this episode, not just for the fact it's by uber-genius Whedon. This past summer I lost my grandfather (whom I was extremely close to) to cancer; it was a difficult period that began in late March and included me spending 10 weeks- and efficiently blowing my summer- to spend time with him (and I don't regret it in the least). Anyhow, when they began this whole storyline regarding Joyce, I thought it was a weird how it happened to be right after I went through something I had just went through. To my great pleasure, the "Buffy" team has nailed exactly the mood and emotions one goes through during this type of situation (it was almost like watching a mirror image of myself it was so accurate), and I'm sure they'll pull it off brilliantly again tomorrow night! Anyway, if they're reading (though I doubt it), my sincere gratitude to team Whedon and the extremely gifted cast for your commitment to realism in terms of real-life difficulties and for giving me a reason to watch TV on Tuesday!
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Word.
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If this show makes me cry like a baby, it was worth the price of admission alone.
Long live the best show on TV
Buffy! -
After having lost both my parents within the past few years, my mom to some jerk on a motorcycle who thought he was Evil-Freaking Kenevil and my dad, who slowly died for two years from a broken heart, blaming himself for being behind the wheel at the moment, it's gonna be tough to watch the aftermath of the loss of what what others would refer to as just another TV mom in an unrealistic fantasy. It is a testimony to Kristine Sutherland, as well as Whedon and company, who gave Joyce such light, love and laughter and to watch us tremble and shake in tears to see that lovely light snuffed out.
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Hallelujah! It's about sapphic time! Can I play too? Aly e-me.
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Just thinking about how the ending of last week will segue into this week's makes me teary. I actually had to re-watch last week's again cuz I couldn't get it outta my head. This show has made such a tremendous comeback from a mediocre first 8 or 9 episodes, and now an episode that lets arguably the finest cast on TV do their thing? Can't wait.
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I don't really know how I'm going to react watching this episode. As pathetic as it sounds, it's really going to hurt. Buffy has been my favorite TV show since the very first episode of the very first season and Joyce has always been this symbol of light and happiness and positivity.
I really can't believe they're going to kill off her character. I feel like she's really dead.
It's going to be very, very hard to watch.
This coming from someone who bawled like a baby when Colleen was voted off Survivor last year and I had only "known" of Colleen for eleven weeks.
Oh well. We'll see tomorrow. -
Would someone with some pull around here: Cormorant, Superninja, Sleazy G., Hercules, ANYBODY!!!, could somebody PLEASE get Harry or Moriarty or Father Geek or SOMEONE just *explain* why the post go out of order!?!?! Is that so much to ask?!? You don't have to fix it, just explain *why*, dammit, *why*, WHY???. . .why. . .[sob]
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Well, looks like Team Whedon is about to make us all into 4 year old girls with skinned knees again.....just like they did when Oz left, just like they did when Angel left, jus like they did when Buffy left Sunnydale, just like they did when Buffy had to put the sword through Angel's heart a minute after he was saved, and even LAST WEEK with the "playground" scene....these guys have a history of making some of the most emotional scenes on TV....all that would remain is for Aimee Mann's "Wise Up" to be playing during one of the scenes, and I'm a blob of spineless goo for a month....and tonight looks like the big one....this show is NOT gonna be the same after tonight...everybody's going to change....(even Spike, once Spike's Fembot is finished).....and the way this all bobs and weaves around a basis of vampires and demons, it's just plain genius....and i swear to god, if this show gets screwed out of at the VERY LEAST an Emmy nod this year, I'm gonna have to pull a Jay and Silent Bob during the ceremony, and trash the fucking stage, X-Men style, preferably while Amy Brenneman or Tyne Daly or someone of their ilk is on stage...snikety-snikety snoime, you bastards!!! Revolution is my name! P.S.--All your no fly zone belongs to us....http://www.nulldevice.net/images/saddam.gif
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I always liked Joyce. From when she was outside the circle and clueless to her segue into the Slayers world. She was understanding and supportive (given time) and she was B's rock. Sure B had more traumatic moments like when she had to kill her boyfriend but a boyfriend is a boyfriend and not only that but he was a 400 year old vampire boyfriend who had done much evil and was... a vampire to be honest. He lived his life and had his time and he lived 'the life' of a hero and knew the risks. So as hard as that was this is different. Joyce is an innocent. She never 'had this coming' like every other character from Giles to Tara does. She doesn't run around chasing demons or vampires...she bakes cookies. And everyone from Spike to Xander has had their moment to bond with her and see her as a good person. Its fitting Joss is writing this episode cause while other writers do great work on the show Joss is always able to make that one little different spin that you've never seen and never thought you'd see on TV. He is able to make you care, like he did with the Tara episode. If thats any indication of what we have coming tonight it will be pretty bad. RIP Joyce and maybe we'll see you around some time.
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I look forward to this episode for a few reasons JOSS WHEADON directed and powerful emotional play. The episode when DAWN finds out that she was the key was amazing, the best acting I've ever seen on BUFFY. LONG LIVE DAWN!!!!
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Herc, check your recommended schedule. Is not tonight a two hour episode of The Mole. I love Buffy but it will be taped tonight.
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....you have my sympathies, Redbeard. It's beyond comprehension how stupid some people are willing to be when they get on a motorcycle or get behind the wheel of a car. And it's beyond sad that your father blamed himself when some moron with a shrivelled ego was the one who was clearly to blame for that tragedy!
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Whom do I have to kill to get an not-too-spoilery Angel review? Herc, El Cosmico, Harry? Just let me know.
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Feb 27, 2001 9:57:18 AM CST
Man, first Bobby bites it on 'Third Watch' last night and now Bu
by superhero
Someone pass me some kleenex. I am such a girl...
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is only an hour tonight, and then the finale tomorrow night at 8pm...
but thanks to the silly cable company here, Buffy isn't on until 10pm ... and Angel tomorrow at 10... damn that. -
Herc! What has happened to the Angel FAQ's? Angel is going through a great storyline right now and we all need our Angel info. to supplement the great info. we get on Buffy and Boston Public.
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Wow. Its been almost 20 hours since I saw Buffy (God Bless Canada) and its still reverberating through my brain. With one tiny exception everything in this ep was perfect and emotionally draining. The lack of music really added to the feel, some sappy ballad would have ruined the rawness of the emotion. In one way its sad that TV that good doesn't happen every day, but in another I'm glad because I don't think the audience could handle it.
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Herc, you forgot to mention President (gasp) Bush's address to the nation tonight at 9:00.
Now that's a tearjerker. Maybe his twins will share their first on-screen kiss. -
If tonight's "Buffy" is going to be anytihng like the episode on "ST: DS9"(don't recall the title, but it's where Sisko is pulled into a time/space pocket instead of his son, and Jake spends years trying to rescue him, ultimately taking his[Jake] own life to disrupt the cycle and rubber-band Sisko back to the point when the incident happened), I and not a few of people I know are going to be emotional wrecks for most of the night.
Joss Whedon: TV's most-overlooked talent. -
Feb 27, 2001 1:12:24 PM CST
Village Idiot and G...life just seems to pass me by...oh well bu
by sundown
for when the script gets mussed and stretched wide that happens when someone does this 6666kl6ik6k or some other long string of characters without a space inbetween. I think it messes with the script in that it doesn't know how to read it or when to make a space. The result is a run on that stretches the script. I saw this happen in a Blade talkback a while back. As far as the out of order stuff I have two theories on that. One -more likely, that the script gets messed when they pull someones name out which is why they do it relatively rarely. It must be a somewhat difficult thing to do, banning someone, so it wreaks havoc with previous posts or new posts. The second is they PURPOSELY put a filter on it to put the posts out of order to make it harder for people to -heh heh- ARGUE! Its hard to bitch if you can't find the posters reply! Thats just my guess cause I am learning this here java/html junk now. BY THE WAY- The invitation is still open to G to start a kill Darla web page. Tip of the day- BE REAL CAREFUL in Home Depots folks...always LOOK UP!
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I've been scheduling my entire life around this evening. I made sure I had the day off and set up my new TV just so I could witness this unforgettable night of Buffy. I have fallen in love with this show again! The only episode I happened to miss was Riley's departure (and I'm still kicking myself in the ass because of it)! I hope Whedon and crew will prove their worth to all the naysayers out there. Catch ya later, people!
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Feb 27, 2001 1:41:27 PM CST
there are only two reasons to see the original Buffy movie.
by vroom socko
First, Donald Sutherland is great as Buffy's watcher. Second, Paul Reubens has the best death scene ever captured on film. Other than that, the movie is so-so at best.
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but I knew that she was gone. I hate this. Episodes like this - shows like this have this ability to draw you into their world, to the point where you forget about your reality. And it's a welcome thing but when you have a ep like this that forces you to say "good-bye" to a good character that was a root to the story, you're sitting there, reminding yourself "this is not real, this is TV". Oh gosh and I ran out of kleenix last week. Damn you Whedon. For being such a genius.
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A fitting tribute to Buffy's mom to make the whole show about her loss, and how the characters deal with it. Nice change of pace, but we saw this coming a mile away, and I'm more excited, as always, by Angel. I hope Cordy tells him off and good.
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I bet far, FAR in advance that Joyce was going to bite it. No matter that I had spies, but you don't CHEAT THE CHEATER!!! Anyway, since I get no info on Angel, I think I'll keep my bets going for that show. Anyone thinking Kate will bite it tonight? I don't think she'll die, but I think she'll "go away". Her suicide will make her look unfit to serve as an officer, and she'll get forced R&R.
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Okay, psyclops...i may not be an avid follower of the show, but after tonight's episode, i can definitly respect it. high quality stuff.
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That was fantastic.
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if this doesn't at least get a fucking nomination (and maybe for dawn as much as anybody and certainly for Joss) there is no fucking justice in the world.
Powerful, powerful television. -
I love that the show can do something completely different, like this episode, and still knock it out of the park. I'm amazed that Dawn the junior slayer, a suspicious addition to say the least, is making me care so damn much. Poor kid. Junior high sucks enough without being a Key and having your mom die. I love all these characters in that antithetical-to-Talkback way. Anya has depth? Xander has anger issues? Tara/Xander and Tara/Buffy bonding? I wish that Joss Whedon could do more episodes himself, because this has to be one of the best of the run. Ordinary, quiet death. Probably the scariest thing of all.
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I did not take my eyes off the screen for the entire show...not even for the commercials! Still curious about why they ended it off BEFORE Dawn touched Joyce...if this is some stupid fake death thing and they end up ressurecting Joyce, I'll really be pissed. No way that will happen, though. Joss isn't into emotional manipulation (at least hasn't been up to this point). Still, that ending...hmmm
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To all my friends (and my girlfriend) who give me shit for watching this show and say that SMG is just another talentless WB actress...eat shit and die!...Sela Ward my ass!
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I...I really can't speak, or say anything more than the obvious about this episode....but i gotta say SOMETHING....one, this episode is the best thing Whedon's ever written or directed...and from this series, thats saying a lot....what impressed me the most is just how Joyce's death affected EVERYONE...they could've done this in the cheesiest way in history, maybe a nice flashback show....but, ironically, considering my last post, it was more like Magnolia....one thing weaves in and out of everyone's lives, and when it's all over, once the crying stops, the change is in...it comes down to "so what are you gonna do about it?"....and life may go on here....the reaction i loved best was Anya's, though....she's spent thousands of years on revenge, and revenge alone, upon the wicked...but now, she sees something bad happen to a good person, without a person or vamp or monster to blame it on...it happens all the time, but in Buffy's world, there was always a monster to exact vengeance...and Anya has never experienced it before...so when her tears flow, its more confusion than anything....and it was great to see......two, the Willow/Tara kiss....im liking how Team Whedon is keeping this as respectable as possible....they could've done the "Ellen" thing, and made it into the media blitz of the year....but instead, it's done how it should be done....like two people become lovers to one another....not like an alien kissing a human....third and final...I will make it a personal point to locate and bitch slap every voting member of the Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the Hollywood Foreign Press if this show or any of its actors doesn't win an award for this episode....and that's the bottom line, cause a 19 year old crying man said so, dammit! Revolution is my name....::sniffle:: I should've gotten the blue....
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...that was phenomenal. Not since the episode where Jimmy Smits' character died on NYPD Blue have I been so moved. If anyone continues to deny this shows greatness, then perhaps you should, *ahem*, get your pulse checked.
Here's my theory: I think that no one will be able to really stop Glory. Things are going to get progressively worse until things come to a climax. Dawn will realize that my sacrificing herself, she will restore the original timeline, removing Glory, restoring Joyce, bring Riley back, and so forth. I hope it doesn't happen, though...I'd hate for this to turn into a cheap season-wide Star Trek Voyager reset button. We've made some incredible emotional investments. It'd be terrible to waste it. -
YES, Joyce is dead...as the last TBer before me said...Joss isnt into screwing with people's hearts....when people are gone, they're gone, and they stay gone....now's our time to deal...hell, i'm still coping with the fact that Doyle's not coming back either...
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Man, I'm I'm... man, that was the... damn, wow, I never thought... that was a great episode, Joss is the man.
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I think th esubject line pretty much says it all. I was moved to tears during each act. The whole godamn thing was heartbreaking. Anya's moment was perfect. To all you who have been bitching about the scoobs needing to grow up Joss just smacked you all in the vaces and said here. Man I am shocked at how good the episode was. Also some longterm predictions. I have been thinking about this for months and here is how I see everything go down: in two years Buff graduates. Angel and buffy have their last seasons, Angel becomes human as prophesized, and he and Buffy end up together. The only problem with my theory is the two shows seem to be so different now, with the characters facing such different issues, that I really can't imagine anymore succesful crossovers. How could Angel relate to what happened to Buffy, and how could Buffy relate to what is going on with angel.
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I hate my life. Only probably the best Buffy ever, and I missed it. I was at work and could NOT get away. This really bites!
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I agree with the comments that not adding a score to the episode was the right thing to do.
One thing I am absoletely floored by was the cinematography. Did you notice that almost all of the shots of the actors were not standard 'Mutant Enemy' framed? They were either too close, or too far, or off center. The only shots that seemed to be 'standard' were frames focusing on Joyce. Very tricky way to make you feel out of sorts.
I was a little upset that they had to include the vamp bit in the end. I think the eps would have been far superior without it. Nice job to everyone who was involved. -
Right on, Walken! Screw Sela Ward! If you want honest to Jehovah good TV, stay the hell away from ABC; come on over to the WB's Tuesday line-up. If this ep. doesn't get some recognition, I'll overthrow the U.S. government. Sure, other shows can evoke emotion, but no show in history has ever made me really care for the characters. This isn't the first occasion I've really felt bad for them. So I rock on, Joss! Be secure in the knowledge that you have created one of the best shows in network TV history.
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Great ep, but I have a sneaky suspicion that all is not what it seems in Whedonland. The last shot of the show clued me in on this, when Dawn is about to touch Joyce and it cuts to credits. I think that we finally discover the power of the key next ep, in which Dawn can resurrect the dead.
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That was really something. It was a really incredible episode. If I was capable of crying, I would have (just doesn't happen... Sleeping in Light came very close, as did the end of Titanic). Joss Whedon is one of the most sadistic gut-wrenching TV writer I've ever had the pleasure of watching in action. Buffy is still in shock... when she comes down, she's going to come down hard. Though the immediate moments of the actual death are so hard to deal with... it's the longterm aftermath that can be truly devastating. Friends, we're in for some hard roads ahead. Poor Dawn... I feel worse for her than for anyone else. She's the one least-equipped to handle any of the events that have happened to her in pretty rapid succession. She's the youngest junior high kid in history... yeah, the monks gave her memories of a life, but did they give her coping mechanisms with which to deal with such extraordinary circumstances? Who can say. Though in real life, self injury is one such artificial coping mechanism, they've already played that card here with Dawn, as indeed was brought up to remind us of her frailty in this episode. Who knows what now. Oh, as far as TalkBack order... I dunno any official reason, but I too had heard the post deletion bit before... but just the same, this seems to happen on EVERY talkback, EVERY time nowadays. Didn't used to ever happen, and I'm sure they deleted posts back then. So I'm not sure that this is a real reason.
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Hey, everybody!
First things first -- "The Body" went far beyond my wildest expectations, providing 45 minutes of television (damn commercials) that I won't soon forget. One question: I got home late, forgot to program my VCR beforehand, and missed the episode teaser. When I began recording on the VCR, the main title sequence was just ending. I noticed that Herc said the teaser was a reprise of last week's closing scene. Is this completely true? Was the editing exactly the same? Did the main title sequence begin right after Buffy said, "Mommy?" Was there any new footage in tonight's teaser that wasn't there last week? God, I hope not. If so, I'll just have to wait for the rerun, whenever that'll be.
Okay, so a few people are complaining that the vampire in the morgue was unnecessary. On one level, I gotta agree. The cynical part of me was thinking, "Oh great, they just had to fulfill the weekly fight scene quota." However, my (and possibly many others') negative reaction is strictly based on hindsight. Thinking back to that moment while it was airing, I truly thought to myself, "Holy, holy shit, they're gonna kill Dawn too." Yes, I KNOW how illogical that is. I mean, there's no reasonable way Joss and Co. would just knock off The Key before we ever got a clear answer as to what the hell it/she was all about, right?
However, at that point in tonight's episode, there was no time, not enough working brain matter left to actually think logically. I was so drained and devastated by the entire experience and aftermath of Joyce's passing that -- like Buffy, Xander, Willow, and everybody else -- I couldn't think clearly. All that entered my mind were the facts: Joyce died, Joss wrote this, who's to say Dawn can't go too?
To sum it up, I think the vampire was absolutely perfect, for it exploited everybody's lowered defenses and heightened vulnerability in that time of sorrow. Reason says that Dawn can't die, at least not right now. Unfortunately for Buffy and everyone who cares, reason just didn't seem to give a damn tonight.
Cheers,
Anime Nut -
And guess who JUST learned that HTML tags don't work in this talkbalk. D'oh!
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But I actually wasn't blown away by this episode. I mean, it was good, and definitely better than 99% of what's on TV, but I guess my expectations were too high. There were a couple great moments. Anya's breakdown was outstanding, and really caught me off guard. So was her awkard attempt at giving condolences to Buffy: especially because Buffy understood and reacted kindly. Dawn's reaction to the news was well acted. At the same time, though, there was a lot of stuff that just didn't feel right. Willow, especially, seemed... wrong, somehow. Xander was so-so. Giles was basically absent. I also agree with some that the vamp at the end was a mistake.
Finally, lest everyone think I'm just a coldhearted, bastard, let me say that I just rewatched "The Inner Light"--that's the TNG episode where Picard lives an entire lifetime in 15 minutes and then loses the whole family (oversimplifying). Now THAT is moving television. Totally kills me. The DS9 episode someone mentioned above was like that, too. The episode of Magnum where he decides not to take revenge on the guy who blew up his wife, so that the POW can be saved. Or the final episode of Quantum Leap where Sam gives up his once chance to get home so that AL can have his wife back. So I CAN be moved to tears by TV. This Buffy ep just didn't do it for me. -
I am new to the forum and know that this isn't really a good place to talk about this but having seen this episode I have to say that all the weird camera angles and perspectives that were shown and all the feelings that were portrayed through the characters summed up the way you feel when dealing with some degree of loss. I recently (like 2 days ago) dealt with a family member having similar complications and it amazed me that Whedon was able to portray the feelings of the ones who encountered a loss such as that. I guess it really is just human nature and really a universal thought. I just wanted to say that Joss has created an episode that reverberates on many levels and should be proud of his creation. Thank you for letting me vent.
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there was not one act that wasnt perfect. this will be the show that everyone will be talking about at awards time. I love Joss' writing. always something unexpected and natural... buffy getting sick on the rug, willow's/tarra's kiss, the vampire at the end. I didint see any of these coming and they were perfect pieces to round out the episode. wow, west wing sucks compared to this.
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And if Dawn uses her "key" powers and resurrect her, will it be Joyce, or will it be something horrific? An animated shell... My curiosity is peaked as to how this will change Buffy's relationship with death, and namely with Spike. Will she become fascinated by it, or will she reject it, or will they just ignore it?
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If this episode isn't nominated for every emmy under the sun, I'll force feed Hot Pockets to the entire academy until they see the light. This is fucking amazing. I'm damn near weeping.
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That is my favorite EP of ST: TNG. I will never forget it...amazing. Beauty and tragedy all at the same time, and I felt his loss. I've never lost anyone close to me, so I don't know how I would react to something like this happening to me. I'm not done watching the EP, but I've already read the shooting script, and I cried when I read it, and I've cried already in the first half-hour. I agree that the direction was great. The handcams and lack of music really add to the whole sense of loss and making it seem real.
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As long as you are on the subject of STTNG spoons, that show in my opinion was nowhere near as moving as buffy was tonight. If you want to pick an emotional episode of TNG, what about the one after Picard was "borged" and he went to stay with his brother in France. Man THAT was an emotional episode.
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I've been reading all the stuff about the Vampire at the End of "The Body" I too at first thought it was a wrong move, however as I reflected on the episode I figured out why it was there.
Just becuase some one dies does not mean everything stops. Life does go on. Even though its hard to do we do have to continue with
our responsibilies. Normally that wouldnt have been so tough but look Buffy had a hard time, emotionally and physically spent.
Just another EXCELLENT JOB by Joss
He is the man!
Lets just hope he gets a Emmy this year. He really deserves it!
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This was a good ep, not the best buffy ever. Anya as usual stole the show. Tara is just absolutely useless, and omg is she getting fat. Vampire at the end was wholly unnecessary. I wish they had kept Joyce, and killed of Tara instead. Does Willow still like dick?
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So far, I have to say, this episode is totally blowing me away. The disillusioned cuts, sound-editing, non-score, feeling of loss actually brought a tear to my eye. The 4th act is coming on, gotta go!
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It might have already been said, but the morgue vampire did have a point (IMO) - it brought a dose of normality to an otherwise surreal situation. Buffy & Co. were in uncharted territory, meanwhile in her world a vamp is the closest thing to normality available. With her mother dead she barely seemed to notice the vamp. I think in that way the scene worked well... it also created an excuse to get both of them in there to see the body.
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Feb 27, 2001 8:51:46 PM CST
If you weren't moved by this ep, your heart is made of stone.
by buffalotom
This talkback isn't witty, or sarcastic, or incisively funny. It's just here to say that this episode was-without hyperbole-the best 60 minutes of television ever. The imagery, the silence, the juxtaposition (Buffy throwing up while chimes ring softly in the window) was pure, unadulterated Genius. How could you not be moved? How telling is it that a show rooted in "fantasy" has more humanity, more real gut-level feelings than any other "real" drama in existence? Would tripe like 7th Heaven or The Practice or Jack & Jill even come close to this level of exploring death as what it truly is-something haunting, sobering, incomprehensible, and, in the end, altogether uniting? These images will linger in my mind forever: Buffy staring at the EMT's lips, her mother's face out of frame, the painting with no face, Willow sitting on her bed too sad to move, Dawn's hand reaching out to her mother's face (is she cold?). Whedon, there are no words worthy for your praise. Thank you. Thank you for truly conveying the horror, sadness, and loss of death.
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and now my Vulcan side must rear its ugly head. I agree this was not the best episode ever. In fact, I would say "Fool For Love" is still the best EP of the season so far. It seems that people who have lost someone id with this very well, and like I said, it's never happened to me, so perhaps I'm lacking empathy for the situation alltogether. The direction I think almost sucked the emotion from it. It made it seem very realistic, but it also drained the emotion right out. Actually, I felt this reading the shooting script as well. I know what he was going for with the deliberate lack of sound, but certain moments, especially like Dawn's where the dialogue was cut away and we're watching reactions of extras and featured actors...I think it would've been more powerful to be up in their face when it all comes down to it. Especially with someone so strong as Trachtenberg, and with a character that we've come to love over this season. You have to feel their pain. Tara is also pretty useless, and if you're going for reality, letting Anya talk about how she doesn't understand death just doesn't ring true to me, in fact, I felt it trivialized the whole situation. Willow's clothing conundrum also seemed unrealistic, but I think it was the dialogue that bothered me. She was too flippant. People handle death in different ways, but I thought Willow should be more upset. Xander punching his hand through the wall seemed forced. LOOK AT ME, I'M WRITING THE EPISODE THE WAY I WANT IT! (Mocking myself here, so don't take it the wrong way). Yeah, I'm Satan, I know. The vampire thing also was out of place, but at least they didn't shoot it in the usual style. If they were going for the whole reality-thing, I say go all the way, even given that it's a fantasy show. It was just missing something, which maybe was the point...I dunno. Yes, I cried, but I did with Darth Vader died, so I'm easy. Drop of a hat.
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OK, I was so into the offsetting feeling of loss as Buffy was. When she asked the doctor if he was sure that Joyce felt no pain, did he say in an obvious voice dubbing, "Absolutely. We lie to make you feel better." It took me a few seconds because as I said, I was still inside Buffy's mind trying to deal with the loss. And then I said to myself, "Whoa. Wait a second. What the hell did he just say?" Tell me I'm crazy and I'll go away.
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this episode didnt move me at all. anya had me thisclosethough.
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(1) Nit-pick: Didn't the vamp at the end need to be buried before he could rise? (2)From Angel: "Not only have I been around 400 years, but I used to do this professionally." - Damn, that was a great line.
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To the guy above me, you aren't crazy. They DID dub in that "we lie" bit. ... I don't think I can say anything that anyone else hasn't. The last time I shed tears over a TV show was, um, Becoming, Part 2. What a coincidence. ... However, I think what made the episode so powerful was how believable *everyone's* reactions were. I went through losing a parent at roughly Dawn's age. How everyone reacted seemed dead-on for their characters. Xander has always had anger issues. And Willow was actually the first one to draw a tear from me. I was a bit surprised at how stoic Giles seemed, but I'm guessing he was being strong for the good of everyone else. It might have been nice to have a scene of him breaking down in private, but it wouldn't've fit in the structure. The entire gang lost their collective mother, and he (as their "father") was the only one who'd have the emotional control to hang on and not lose it with them around.
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I'm a recent convert of the Slayer, Angel & Co. Tonight's episode (like 'Titanic', 'Schindler's List' and 'Dancer In The Dark') is going to stick with me for years to come. This wasn't some ICU Hospital deathbed soap-opera cliche where the EKG goes from slow blips to flatline - cueing the orchestra strings.
This is coming home on a sunny California afternoon to your worst-ever nightmare and realizing that you're not going to wake up from it. Shit! this episode 'slayed' me! Kudos to Whedon & Co.
Movies get worse. TV gets better. Go figure. -
I'll add in my two cents worth of kudos. First, Cranialleak, yes there was that dubbed line. Also, Superninja, was it you that said something about Anya's big scene or whatever being bad? I've already forgotten who said what, but I think Anya's big scene was perfect. She was confused by death, and just wanted to know "why?" But who could answer? Who really knows why things like that happen? I think it's the most humanizing moment ever for her. OK, onto other things. Whedon, you are SO talented! What a great episode. I see many tb-ers are able to relate to a close death(sudden or not, and I've experienced both), and I could definitely relate to the feelings going on. Buffy's total shock during that first act was simply remarkable, and if THAT scene can't get Sarah not only an Emmy nomination, but A WIN, well, then the Emmys are even more worthless than before. The whole episode might've been the best acted in the show's history, not just Sarah, but also Michelle & Alyson, plus I mentioned Emma Caufield. And oh yeah, I teared up at the whole thing(especially the Dawn part), and how could I not, with it being such an accurate depiction of the early stages of grief. Ex. the Scoobies thinking it HAD to be the work of Glory. The denial, the shock, everything about the acting and writing was perfect. The lack of music most certainly did NOT suck out the emotion. I actually wished they hadn't even done the opening credits as usual. The situation tself provided the emotion, and no score was needed to heighten it. Every shot of Joyce just gave me a chill. As for the vamp attack, I didn't have a problem with it, and they didn't do it for big action and certainly not for comedy. I just think it was the way to bring big sis and little sis together. I REALLY can't wait now to see how this plays out. Like someone else said, eveything changes now. We're never gonna return to the old ways of Buffy cracking jokes as she kills a baddie. This show just grew up a lot in a hurry tonight. Bravo to Joss and Sarah once again, cuz this is an episode that's one of the best EVER.
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But I LOVED Angel. It started kind of slow, and sure, there were some cliched moments in there, but I'm so glad that he's back! Watching him kiss their collective ass was something I had been waiting for. But what was up with Lindsey's hillbilly roots?
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This is my first time posting, but this Buffy episode has affected me greatly and I feel compelled to comment. My grandmother passed away last week. Until watching this episode, I had not truly dealt with my emotions surrounding her death. I cried most intensely during the scenes at Willow's dorm room. That hit very close to home and gave me the chance to experience some of my own feelings about the loss I have faced. The episode completley captured the range of emotions that I experienced and am continuing to deal with. One important aspect was dealing with seeing my grandmother's body in the coffin. Like Buffy and Dawn, seeing the body was painful, confusing, and surreal. In my opinion, the vampire is significant for a few reasons. One is that life goes on, and Buffy must continue to live her own life without her mother. That involves protecting her sister and the world from evil. However,another important reason is that the vampire demonstrates that their mother's body in the morgue is not their mother. It is a body, the shell which held their mother's soul. The vampire is not the same person who was bit. It is a demon that inhabits the body of the deceased. The use of the vampire highlights the fact that Buffy and Dawn's mother is gone. I suppose this makes more sense if you believe in a higher power and an afterlife. The bottom line is that this episode was one of the most powerful television watching experiences I have had. All the actors captured the true experience of loss. We might debate why the vampire was included, but it does not change the importance and relevance of the outstanding program.
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I said that Anya's scene was out of place in this episode. Her acting was great, but in the context of the story, I felt it didn't work. Most of the Scoobies behavior seemed to undermine the weightiness of Joyce's death. I understand that it was important for each character to have their input, but I felt it was impersonal. Also Hannigan and Brendon are not strong dramatic actors, IMHO, and the direction and the dialogue only heightened this. But I'm biased. I'm an Angel girl, and I prefer that show over Buffy. Angel was great, and Buffy was emotional, but unfulfilling.
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This is my first time posting, but this Buffy episode has affected me greatly and I feel compelled to comment. My grandmother passed away last week. Until watching this episode, I had not truly dealt with my emotions surrounding her death. I cried most intensely during the scenes at Willow's dorm room. That hit very close to home and gave me the chance to experience some of my own feelings about the loss I have faced. The episode completley captured the range of emotions that I experienced and am continuing to deal with. One important aspect was dealing with seeing my grandmother's body in the coffin. Like Buffy and Dawn, seeing the body was painful, confusing, and surreal. In my opinion, the vampire is significant for a few reasons. One is that life goes on, and Buffy must continue to live her own life without her mother. That involves protecting her sister and the world from evil. However,another important reason is that the vampire demonstrates that their mother's body in the morgue is not their mother. It is a body, the shell which held their mother's soul. The vampire is not the same person who was bit. It is a demon that inhabits the body of the deceased. The use of the vampire highlights the fact that Buffy and Dawn's mother is gone. I suppose this makes more sense if you believe in a higher power and an afterlife. The bottom line is that this episode was one of the most powerful television watching experiences I have had. All the actors captured the true experience of loss. We might debate why the vampire was included, but it does not change the importance and relevance of the outstanding program.
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Frankly, I saw all the characters go rehash except for three: Buffy, Dawn and Anya.
Dawn was awesome drama with that no sound except for her crying and the emotions put into it. The fall to the floor was beyond priceless. The girl needs props although I found her walking to the morgue beyond corny and just a way to get his little Vampire crap in. That morgue sucked the life out period, it wasn't well done and I found it to be an enitrely worthless other than to show how weak Buffy had become because of what had happened. I'm sorry but I didn't believe the performance of Willow, it just seemed forced to me. I didn't get the same emotional feel as through Dawn and Buffy, it was just dead and horrid. And the fact she can go from ultra cry-to joke-to angry-to cry in less than four minutes just confirmed it. Wow, she had trouble finding a shirt...that's suppose to be emotional?? Actually, I found it to be dead and an overused. Next, comes Anya and this was the one that was beyond awesome. She kept with the demon/human mode but she put soo much life into that it was almost as sad as Dawn. The fact she didn't understand and didn't know how it was done was almost child-like. It was perfection. Tara was just kinda there, I'm sorry but if she exprienced it when she was young then she would flash back, I've seen it happen time and time again. Her role was forced and not well thought out. Whoever wrote her scenes didn't understand anything about life/death and missed a beyond golden chance to really convey emotions. Or at least have her leave for a few minutes and comeback with her make-up messed up, you know not willing to cry in front of Buffy so she doesn't make her feel worse. But they didn't, they put NOTHING into her character and it told me that she is not long term. Giles was Giles, it wasn't the best but very understandable since he is like the father figure now and cannot show his feelings in front of her. Well done. Finally comes Buffy, excellent job. Believable with the flashes, the reactions of shock, the way it affected her strength, and how she was hearing different things. I'm sorry, flame if you want but I found holes that I could drive a mack-truck through. #1: The morgue was not needed, it was a waste and pointless. The Buffy/strength crap could have been shown in another episode and it may kill this when awards come time. #2: The performance of Tara and Willow seemed forced and not believable, the kiss was a deep stinger because TOO MUCH passion was put into it and the whole two disrupted a very emotional flow. The quick emotion changes hurt the Willow performance beyond belief. #3: Many little things that I can overlook. In my honest opinion, I would not be stunned if this episode did not get nominated. However, I wouldn't be shocked if it did. Borderline really but I will be BEYOND shocked if Gellar doesn't recieve the nod. Overall a 7 on the tear scale, pushed it but then pulled itself down. Flame if you want but that's what I saw. I'm sorry. -
Well, everybody else has said it all about the Buffy episode, so I'm just wondering if it indeed turned out to be the case that Angel has to be in love for the "love act" to remove his soul? They didn't seem to explain it very well during the actual show.
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Feb 27, 2001 11:18:25 PM CST
If you want THE BODY (or at least my short and sweet review of i
by village idiot
I thought the episode was compelling, if a bit self-conscious. Lynchian indeed. Everyone had their moment in the "grief spotlight," and they all did a solid job. ***** So what is the low-down on the talk last week that said that Joyce was in scripts later in the season? Someone want to fill us in? ***** The biggest problem I had with Angel tonight is the fact that he didn't stake Darla. I guess perhaps I'm a bit unclear on the morality of killing vamps. I mean, their like the robots on He-Man, right? Morally speaking, they can be killed with impunity, right? Vampire Darla is clearly a killer and will likely kill again. Angel didn't try to subdue her at all. I mean, come on.
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Everyone has already commented on how great the scene's with Anya and Dawn are, but the first act with Buffy just wandering through the house... Shit. I normally never cry over a tv show. Hell, only three movies have gotten me flowing tears; Disney's Beauty and the Beast(don't give me any shit,) Saving Privare Ryan, and John Woo's penultimate film, The Killer. Damn. If I have to eat a Lean Pocket, it'll have been worth it.
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What effect did the sex really have on him? He's still fast, strong, and can survive a blow to the head from a sledgehammer. Yet his cuts and bruises don't heal fast, and he can enter a place of residence without permission. When Angel had sex with a human, he became more of a vampire. Mabe having sex with a vampire made him more human? What do you all think?
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I just have to say that no episode has blown me away like this one. This one, even more than Hush, is as close to true cinema as you can get on TV.
This entire episode rang true for me- everything was nailed perfectly. The pain and our absurd responses to it.
If there is an emmy shut out then we have another Florida on our hands friends because this episode was simply spectacular!
long live Joss! -
Yes, a very good episode tonight, one of the better ones in a long time (although it wasn't perfect, and I wouldn't say it was the best 45 minutes of television ever, but more on that later). The first half, was, for me, nearly perfect, and (someone may have already mentioned it, I only skimmed the previous posts) somewhat reminiscent of the pilot episode of Twin Peaks (whose first half hour was also near perfect now that I think of it, even though it was before the entrance of Cooper... but I digress), a slow, off-kilter (and yet because of it more real) meditation on grief, not cutting away, not letting you escape, but unflinchingly trapping you in the painful moment. The through the window shot of Dawn was especially well done. Someone previously criticized it by saying that it would have been better if we just stayed right there with Dawn, but there's something so much more real and sad (to me anyway) about realizing she is being watched through glass (as we too are watching through glass) and how the instinctive knowledge of loss can spread to others even though they can't hear what is being said (Like Donna and James realizing that Laura is dead without being told... and for that matter, Mrs. Palmer on the phone screaming and crying). The second half, though, was a little patchy in my oppinion, although there were still great moments, especially Anya (which was a pleasant surprise.. I've never been a big Anya fan), and (to disagree with some here) the vampire attack. The wonderful use of no score in tonight's episode was especially effective in that vampire attack, because the silence of it was more creepy than much of what we've seen on this show in a while (sort of like 'Hush'). Someone mentioned that they thought the inclusion of the vampire might keep the ep. from getting an Emmy nomination... I'm not sure if they meant because they saw it as a huge flaw, or because those in the Academy would be turned off by the pressence of a vampire, that it would be too werid for them. Regardless of what they meant, the latter, sadly may very well be true... but I see it as Joss standing his ground... if your going to honor this show you have to accept it for what it is, a show about a young woman named Buffy who fights demons and vampire (and of course it's also so much more), and personally I wouldn't want it any other way. The best thing about this episode over-all was that it showed that the premise and characters are strong enough a variety of different kinds of stories, that it needent be trapped by being just one thing (to digress again, it's like those wonderful first, "humorous" X-Files episodes like "Humbug" and "Clyde Bruckman" and "Jose Chung"... which were later followed by a whole season of largely awful funny episode that were mostly derivative of those three... but I'm digressing too much). Finally, I can't overstate the effectiveness of forgoeing music in tonight's episode. Music, when used well, can be a great tool and element of a show or movie, but usually it's overused and beats you over the head... it's a crutch. After the silence of tonight's "Buffy" it took me a good few minutes to readjust to the constant musical prodding on "Angel" (and hey I love "Angel", lately even more than "Buffy", and you can't really blame it for the wall to wall music.. hell, almost every show on tv is like that these days, and don't get me started on movies... man, the non-stop music in The Perfect Storm had me pulling my hair out and was the worst part of, to my mind, a generally bad movie anyways... okay, REALLY digressing now). So, to recap... oh hell.. no recap. I love these shows. Now, bring on the new Sopranos! Whee!
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Holy crap, that was a long post I just posted. Just thought I'd use up more (cyber) space to mention it.
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The arrival of the onscreen kiss left me feeling that there was no sexual content in it. Handled very well in execution. And... Tara isn't fat, just huggable.
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Well, a day after the fact, and theres still criticisms coming in....and i'm gonna keep this short, since the TB i was writing before this got deleted(fucking aol)...might as well throw my hat in again...first, the "we lie" dub....thank god for Closed Captioning(dont watch the Simpsons without it...you'd be surprised the lines they replace...).....the caption below stated that Buffy was thinking that line, while the doctor said something alone the lines of "we're absolutely sure"....second...Tara....people, DONT make me go on my anorexia rant....Tara looked FINE...now go away.....third, Willow's reaction....knowing how WIllow is in normal company....her reaction worked....she's usually very nervous/shaky sort, but still very compassionate....so when this happens, she doesnt quite know how to deal....she tries to get a grip, but unfortunately ends up victim to her emotions...if Tara wasnt there, i can guarantee, she would've had a breakdown...after that, Anya's breakdown....um, we have to remember...she's still a thousands of years old vengeance demon, trying to pass for human still...she's still fumbling through her relationship with Xander....she's never had the ability to truly become close to anyone beside him....so, imagine if she lost Xander...hell, imagine when she almost did lose Xander in the Mayor-killing episode....she almost got sick at THAT fact...so when Buffy's mom is gone, she's still confused....all she can do is TRY to understand....lastly, Angel last night...decent, but sorry, i like the dark Angel rather than this sheepish, repentant Angel we saw emerge last night...but im still glad that the whole gang is back together...now let's see if they can keep the continuity of the series up.....and yes, best line i've heard on that series...."Not only have i been around 400 years, but i used to do this PROFESSIONALLY! I KNOW that was perfect!!".....and as for why he changed...Angel said it himself....when he was with Buffy, he was madly in love with her...perfect happiness....but at that point, surrendering to Darla was "perfect despair"...and him realizing that fact had the reverse effect, i gather....thats it for now, i think...Revolution is my name
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Wasn't gonna weigh in but I have to. I think a lot of the criticism is from people who are comparing this to TV. Quantum Leap episodes (of which I think the most emotionally resonating was the one where he can
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Yes, I was very sad but also amazed at the emotion contained in last night's episode. It reminded me of the movie "The Sweet Hereafter" where grief and loss are alive and overpowering, reaching out of the screen and sucking your blood away. . . hmm, like a vampire. Anyway, excellent, and if this episode doesn't get any Emmy award recognition, then it will be for the same reason all fantasy/Science Fiction material doesn't get recognized there: the emmy's are run by unimaginative fools. Damn shame that, even excellent work like "The Body" can't get through that glass wall. But anyway, should Joyce really come back to life by way of Dawn's power as others have suggested? To tell the truth, I'm not sure it would be right. I mean, this episode made the loss so strong, it might seem like a betrayal or a cheat to actually bring her back. Of course, this is a series, the hurting isn't done yet with only one episode. Also, I briefly thought that boy in Dawn's class was something unearthly because of his passivity as Dawn fell apart in the hallway, then I remembered this is a boy in Junior High. That's scary right there. And that vampire at the end(shiver) that had to be the creepiest, most disgusting looking vampire to ever appear on the show. Very affective. I can't wait for the next episode, and I hope another stand alone all-out comedy hour is at least two episodes away. I know they'll want to get away from being too heavy-handed, but distraction hurt the flow of the show last year after Adam's appearance. They shouldn't lose it while they're doing good.*****Now Angel last night was good primarily because of Darla's reaction to Angel not becoming Angelus. I also liked the stuff they did with Kate, first time in a long time I've liked her scenes actually. But what the hell was that stuff with Lindsey and the sledge hammer? Did he put on a red-neck disguise so no one would recognize him? I mean, talk about adopting a jealous husband cliche out of nowhere! At least he didn't have a baseball bat and a red cap! But why the hell is he driving a cheap-looking pick up truck if he works for such a rich law firm in LA?! And yet again we see Lindsey can't beat Angel. Like I've said before, I want to see him kick Angel's ass but good, not lose EVERY TIME they meet.
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a red neck hillbilly as Angel mentioned when he was beating him down he was sorry he didn't try to help him more and that was the episode where Lindsey gave his 'origin' as a hick whose father lost everything...Angel was unimpressed at the time. Anyways I bet those were the boots, truck, clothes he came to the city with and he was handling it the way he would if he wasn't pretending to be a lawyer hot shot type. You are what you are...
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It's taken me about 12 hours to absorb and ruminate over last night's "Buffy." Damn. That had to have been one of the most emotionally devastating hours of television I've seen in my 32 years on this muddy ball. There were so many great moments and most have been mentioned here already, one thing that really stood out for me- The opening moments of Act 3 with Xander and Anya in the car. The first few seconds with no sound, no background noise, nothing. Amazingly effective. ON a personal level, I've been lucky enough to still have both my parents healthy and still married. But as they are both nearing their upper 60s, I know that someday (and that day is getting sooner all the time)I will have to deal with a similiar situation. A few years ago, a very close friend from high school lost his mother literally mere minutes after his wedding. It was a tremendously gutwretching time for my friend, his family and our core group of friends and it was something I flashed to while watching last night. To the poster who criticized the bit with Willow's shirt- It felt perfectly right to me. In a situation like that, some people will focus on the most mundane things as a method of either dealing or avoiding their pain. Also, don't look for Joyce to come back, I don't think Joss would do something like that. I can still remember how much I thought (and still think) that "Star Trek" went downhill when the brought Spock back to life because of fan pressure, effectively undercutting any thematic impact "Wrath of Kahn" had. And on a completely non serious note: Of course Lindsey is a highly paid lwyer. Do you know how much it would cost to buy the original "Sanford and Son" pickup truck?
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OK here we go with my wagers for the rest of the Buffy/Angel season. 1. Dawn will survive the season. 2. Tara and Oz will both die (probably in act of sacrifice to save Willow). 3. Joyce will stay dead. (That's easy.) 4. Riley will be reported dead, but will show up later. 5. Other stuff will happen. OK that last one is a bit facetious (I know that's got to be spelled wrong.). Since I have never had the misfortune, it seems, to have infested my gastronomical system with a Hot Pocket, I will instead wager one of those nasty Frozen Burritos they sell at the nearby Price Chopper that my ex-girlfriend Laura loved but I thought tasted like hot Mexican vomit in a delightful pastry shell.
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you know when you know you've just seen a REALLY good movie? The day after, when the thought of the movie just covers over everything in your head - your thoughts, things happening make you think about scenes in the movie, etc. This ep, I can't get it out of my head. And folks who can't believe Joyce is dead cuz "things didn't seem right..." - well,when someone close to you dies - NOTHING ever seems right at that time. Such a well done ep coming from a very well done show. Here's what I think: Joyce is dead. Tara survives the season. Dawn survives the season. Ben sacrifices himself to save Dawn and the Buffyverse. Spike's Buffy Fembot goes up in flames - serves only as a comic relief episode. Riley comes back and is not reported to be dead (how would Buffy find out anyways, Riley is "mission incognito")ever. I believe Anya and Xander do part ways as a couple, but will eventually repair again. Oh, and I believe with Willow's growing Witch-ee powers - she also helps in saving Dawn and shot putting Glory out of this dimension. And through all this, Joyce will remain dead - and I will miss her character. Last night was a hard show to watch. Besides being probably one of the best eps of any series this season. Last night was a big fat class act by all.
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I don't think I can really say anything about Buffy that hasn't already been said, one way or another, so I'll just talk about Angel... I think the part about Angel entering Kate's place wasn't about him becoming more human or anything. I think it really meant that she was dead when he got there, but he was able to bring her back. This just makes more sense to me than the whole "he's more human now" thing. I mean, that's supposed to be about his point-of-view and emotional state, not about his physical existance, right? -- Now, about Lindsey, that scene just reminded me of some lines from last Sunday's King of the Hill- Woman:"Hank, don't go out there. He's a small guy, but he can really hurt you." Hank:"No offense, but he'd from Oklahoma." In other words, I don't see him as any kind of serious threat anymore. Sure, he'll be an annoyance, but unless he does some freaky mystical stuff to get back at Darla and inadvertantly becomes super-powerful or dangerous, I can't see him causing the Bat-gang too much grief. One thing, though; with Angel's recent turn, you have to ask where the season is going to go from here... -- Now, I will do some Buffy-speculation... What if, working together, Tara and Willow finally manage to get Amy changed back from her rat-form. What if this caused problems, as Willow felt she needed to take care of Amy and make up for all the time that she wasn't able to change her? What if this caused a rift of jealousy between Tara and Willow? Now, this has (as Battleposter would have put it) 99.9995554% CHANCE OF BEING NOTHING BUT PURE FAN-BOY SPECULATION, but you never know... I do hope they bring Amy back, though, just so that there are no loose ends...
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Haven't read all of the talkback since the episode aired, but I've watched it a few times, and I have to say that Joss has indeed outdone himself, and "Buffy" has officially reached transcendence (though I actually felt it was there after last season). I don't think I would say "The Body" is the BEST "Buffy" episode ever (I think that distinction still belongs to the two-part "Becoming" or "Hush," but this is right up there (probably just behind those classics). What a powerful episode; I was a bit skeptical about the decision to not score the ep with music (it was also interesting the practical non-existance of an ambient soundtrack (i.e. sound effects) as well, very eeire; but after seeing it the move was brilliant and appropriate. So many great moments- Buffy (and Dawn's) devastating reactions; Willow & Xander's bravura reactions; Anya's heart-breaking admission of not "getting" death, and the chilling final scene. Writing, directing, acting were all pitch-perfect and indelibly real. The vamp scene was a bit unnecessary, but it was gripping nonetheless because it was unexpected. I will agree that Giles' reaction was a bit disappointing (one would think his would be the most wrenching of all the non-Summers Scoobies given his close, fatherly relationship to Buffy). However, one thing I noticed in the opening scene (at Buffy's house) was that after spending all these years around death, losing friends, and having to destroy demons every night, this is the first time- I believe- we really ever see Buffy get physically sick by the sight of a dead body (she vomits after the call is made). This is probably due to the fact that it's her mother; but it was an interesting little nuance on Joss' part. Overall, a haunting and unforgettable watershed of emotion and heart; arguably Joss' most personal episode to date. I do agree awards should be in store for the cast and Joss after this ep, but like all great art, "The Body" transcends mere reward and touches us deep in the soul. Thanks for letting us in Joss.
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all righty...here's my take....i wager three Hot Pockets here....1. Riley comes back and dies within the course of two episodes. Possibly the last two of the season...2. Whedon's stated in interviews that he's gonna put Willow through some shit and soon...and his (or maybe an underling's?) stubborn refusal to put Amber Benson in the credits makes me wonder if Tara's REALLY a permanent character...so, i wager that Tara will either be physically hurt or die by the end of this season....3. Kiss both Ben the Intern AND Glorificus goodbye...it's gonna suck, because Buffy and Ben are gonna get closer, right around that time that B finds out about Ben's Ranma complex...and finally, i wager a LEAN Pocket on Spike's Fembot crashing and burning in one episode....
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I guess they did say that on the actual show, but they were so wordy about it that they kind of lost me. And I don't think Kate was dead when Angel got there, or else it would have taken more than a blast of some cold water to revive her. That business with Angel being to enter was supposed to be indicative of the intervention of some kind of higer power, I think.
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This is the kind of episode that can only happen in a show that has been on for years. The emotional investment that I have in these characters is so strong that it was uncomfortable for me to see them in so much pain. The honesty struck me. The way Buffy called after her mother, "momomomom MOM!" after she realized her mother was unresponsive. The day dreams about everything being OK. Dawn not really believing Buffy (that's why she went to the morge, she had to see her mother's body and know it was true that she was dead). The way the kids in class seemed to have looks like, "there she goes again, crazy Dawn is freaking out". Anya, who I have never really liked, WOW. Joss can write these characters better then anyone. I am stuned, I am floored. There is nothing on TV that can match this episode, not for the honesty, not for the writting, not for the direction, not for the astounding acting. And Joyce is dead. For good. The almost-touch at the end was Dawn finally coming to terms with the fact that her mother is indeed dead. To bring Joyce back in any way other than a flash-back or vision would be such a cop-out, and I know Joss is far more visionary than that.
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I don't want to destroy all hopes that some fans have, but the actress that plays Joyce, Kristine Sutherland, is done with Buffy. She wanted to leave due to separation from family while making the series, and she'd finally had enough. And don't believe the rumors about her finally having enough of SMG, those rumors always turn up after a character leaves this show. ****** As for Angel now being able to enter homes without permission, somebody forgot he had to ask Wesley for permission to enter his home shortly after that. No, I think the PTB saw that with Kate unconsious there was no way for him to be invited in so they intervened that one time.
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This episode was a very interesting choice by Whedon and the creative people behind Buffy. It doesn't quite earn what it wants, but it hit quite a few honest notes and overall I was moved and impressed. Clearly it was, shall we say, 'inspired' by the Thirtysomething episode where the Peter Horton chracter dies out of the blue, which was a more successful and slightly less self-conscious attempt to deal with the awful suddenness of death, portraying it not only as meaningless, but more importantly to TV, as NARRATIVELY meaningless. Very few of us know any Hitlers or heroes, so for us, when someone dies, it just happens for no good Goddamned reason. "The Body," and the Thirtysomething episode it was based on, deal with this by coming at the subject obliquely, letting the event hit the characters as much by surprise as the audience, and literally letting everyone sit down for an entire chapter and say, "What the hell just happened? And how? And WHY?" And of course there are no answers forthcoming. It's contrived, sure, but it worked. *****The interesting part of this particular attempt, of course, is that it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for fuck's sake. A genre show, where the citizens of Sunnydale die by the dozens every week, not too mention the truckloads of vampires and demons who are despatched regularly (who convieniently turn to dust to avoid any yucky clean-up, literal or moral) trumping itself with a horror to surpass them all. It will definately, by design, strike a chord against which all the past and future notes of the show will sound. I guess you could call it exploitive, but I don't really mind. The point of it was to create a genuine and serious death, to give weight and context to all the silly/fantastic deaths that are happening all the time in typical episodes. However, secretly, I think the true effect is actually the complete reverse, all of the fantastic deaths on the show make a real death like Joyce's more silly and cheap, and therefore meaningless. That's the truest and greatest horror of all, and one of the ideas the genre has always explored better than any other.
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"The Body" was right on. Death is surreal.. probably moreso to the person dying.. but bizarre to the living nonetheless. I lost my mom to cancer three years ago. It was a trip then and still trips me out to this day. Her cancer took 18 months to do its deed but the day she passed a palpable time warp engulfed my family, friends, and me. I id'd with Tara's quote "it's always sudden". Rarely have I seen this aspect of death portrayed so accurately on a commercial-ridden TV show. Thanks and kudoz to writer/director Joss W. and the wonderfully talented cast of BTVS!!
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It was very fitting that last night was the first on screen kiss for Tara and Willow. Because it wasn't a "look how hot the lesbians are" scene. It was all about grief and two people conforting each other.
And, was I the only one DREADING that Glory was standing outside the door when Buffy opened it for the paramedics? I just could not imagine Buffy's reaction if Glory had been standing there gloating! Honestly, I was speachless the whole episode. The only thing that annoyed me was THE COMMERCIAL BREAKS! Here was this silent(no music) emotional rollercoaster, and then they cut to some really stupid commercial with loud, obnoxious, happy music. If ever there was an episode that should have been aired without commercials, this was it!! -
What's your point, in the end I think we agree that Angel still has to get permission from people to get in their homes, unless I misread what you were saying...
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Buffy was great, so I expected a big letdown from Angel (especially with the cliffhanger from last week). You have to remember the curse is for "a moment of true happiness". Banging Darla was Angel hitting rock bottom, not the other way around. I had a real problem with the episode earlier in the year when he "turned evil" after taking drugs. It seemed like a cheap plot device. All in all, I think it turned out to be a good episode that ended the current story arc. The truch assault was inspired. The interaction between Angel, "the wheeled one", and Gunn was great. "Keep your pants on! Oh, too late for that." and calling Angel on his brooding makes it two episodes in a row the gay green demon hasn't bugged me. Darla had some great lines. Most of all, Charisma Carpenter still has an amaing rack (I had to rewind the scene when they lifted her up at the end). Not as good as Buffy (no way you could follow that), but an excellent episode.
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Well, Joss keeps showing us why he's "the man" again and again, don't he? Dawn won't be able to bring back her dead mom, 'cause then she'd be Dawn of the Dead, and we just can't have that. The solution to the Glory problem seems to have shown itself, in my opinion. Ben, for all the fact that he time-shares with Glory, appears to be completely human, and therefore Glory's weakness Kill Ben, and Glory's tie to this dimension is hosed, if it doesn't kill her as well. As for Angel (since there ain't a seperate talkback...grrrrr), I'm glad he's fixing things with the crew. I thought it cool as hell that he was getting all bad with the W&H slaughterfest and all, but it got old after the fifth "previously, on Angel..." thing with that "I just can't seem to care" line coming up EACH FRAGGIN' TIME! Enough already, make him better. Joyce is dead, y'all can get over it now. Buffy needs time, but you guys are in the real world. Grieve for those who truly need it. Kristine Sutherland is alive and well.
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No contest! This is the best episode of Buffy I've seen all year. I never really knew what Sarah Michelle Gellar was capable of as an actress but her first ten minutes into the episode had me shaking like a frightened child. The way the whole gang reacted was so real, the emotions were so raw and as a result, the show hit me like a ton of bricks. I think this proves that Joss Whedon can handle the dramatic elements of a story just as much as the action and humor. Angel was also pretty good tonight, although I just couldn't follow the story after such a powerful hour of Buffy. Now I must go and find some more Kleenex...sniff..sniff!!
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I hope, fervently, that Joyce will not come back. I believe that Buffy saying "it's not her" and such like is not any sort of clue, but a real reaction to a real, heart-rending moment. My fiancee's father died around Christmas, and I can't tell you how many times I heard her say, "It wasn't him" in reference to the body in the coffin. This is absolutely real, gang; God forbid you have to experience such a loss, but when you do you will recognize it. ** As for the reach, again, I don't think this was any sort of cutting-away-before-the-mystical-shit-happens thing. (As much as I wanna see Dawn develop some kinda powers, I don't want Joyce to come back and lessen the power of this episode and its potential function as a way to push the characters to new heights, to inject a new tone into one of the best shows on TV.) I believe it was emotion again. She reaches, we're not sure if she's actually gonna touch the body, you can feel the hesitation... Cut away leaving the tension unresolved, the result unknown. Does she stop before touching? Does she touch the body and have another meltdown? I can tell you from experience (as my fiancee would if she were sharing in this conversation) that you don't want to touch the body. It's not a good, beneficial, or helping-you-with-closure kind of experience. It can only serve to freak you out. (And with that bit of eloquence, I'm outta here.) --until Joyce rises, make mine Buffy! --kyle
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This episode was perfect. You cannot arque with me otherwise. I've read the other more sarcastic talkbacks stating the flaws of this episode: Namely the vampire at the end and, more incredibly, the reactions of the Scoobies. When I read the talkback's criticizing their reactions I damn near shucked my keyboard at the monitor. "Excuse me... Their reactions weren't real? You must be kidding?" First I'll start off with Willow. Certain people didn't buy her constantly needing to change her clothes. Willow is notoriously insecure of herself, and yet she knows she has to be there for Buffy. She cared for Joyce and she feels horrible bur she knows that she couldn't possibly feel as bad as Buffy. She doesn't feel she has the right to feel bad and break down crying. So she feels quilty. She wants to be the adult. She wants to "put on her resolve face" and help Buffy deal but she thinks... worse, knows that she's incapable of doing that. She feels lost. Her focusing on her clothes was a need for her to have something to control. She couldn't control her emotions or Joyce's death but dammit she can wear that sweater Joyce always loved! ----Tara what could you possibly have against Tara? She kisses Willow and all of the sudden she is being too passionate? And then she's talking to Buffy, relating her own similar experience, and she's showing no emotion? For crying out loud! Tara liked Joyce but she didn't know her all that well. So in that sense, she's up the same crek as Willow; except, she was at the moment more concerned with Willow then Buffy. Her kissing Willow was just her offering comfort to her girlfriend. Do you actually think that she had some inapropriate alterior motive? Like "taking advantage of the situation"? Sheesh. And as for her talking about her mom's death to Buffy I thought it was sweet. Buffy is confused as hell about her feelings at this juncture and Tara basically told her that for her she was so confused she couldn't even explain her actions after the tragedy to herself. ----Anya... Although there haven't exactly been case studies about people coming to grips with death after being immortal for a real long time, I have to see that her reaction was completely believeable. She's just coming to grips with her own mortality and now she has to worry about others too. When she had her freak out about death in the Replacement, she probably believed that all the people she cared for would stay with her. She knew about her own death but she was completely ill-prepaired to deal with the one's of others. It's a sudden realization and it terrorfies her as much as her own death. Having been powerful for so long she feels absolutely helpless and death is something that she sees as pointless and unnecessary. ---- Giles. Well Giles is acting as the father figure fiqure. he's getting everything done because he knows that Buffy will simply not be able to do it. He cared for Joyce too, but right now he knows that he's going to have to do his best to stay solid and support the others. He's dealing with her death the best way he knows how, by helping everyone else. ---- Xander... I'm worried about the Xand-Man. He's been so assaulted by evil that he's forgotten the natural ways people leave this Earth. Whenever someone has died in the past, there was always something to blame. For Jesse... Darla. For Miss Calander... Angelus. For Kendra... Dru. Not to mention the countless other deaths he's seen. In the aftermath, there was always something to point to... always something to fight and kill. If it wasn't Glory then it had to be the Doctors but someone or something had to be at fault. So if he can't get his hands on Glory, or the Doctors he'll nail the next best thing... the wall. It was a release of anger and frustration. Didn't you notice how he didn't flinch at the sight of his own blood. In fact he looked relieved at the sight. It was a miniature affirmation of what he believes about the world. In the back of his mind he must have been thinking, "My hand hurts now. It hurts because I threw it against a wall. The pain didn't just appear, I caused it. Things don't just happen, there must be a cause." Mark my words, Xander is going to do something violent and stupid. If I were Spike, I'd stay the hell away from Xander for the next few weeks. ----Finally I come to Dawn and Buffy's reaction. The episode did such a good job that I'm not even going to bother except to say this. Her mom's death didn't really hit her until she called her mom "the body". That's when it hit her that she was gone for good and not coming back. A powerful scene.
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I was going to come back and say this about Joyce's death, but Diz already beat me to it (thanks for that). Anyway, it would be a MAJOR cop-out for Joss to bring back Joyce, not to mention severely damaging the show's credibility. Plus, remember that this is the show that a) turned Buffy beau Angel into a dark killing machine, b) had Angel brutally murder Jenny Calender (Giles' girlfriend), and c) forced Buffy to kill Angel after he got his soul back...and this was all in one season! I could go on, but I doubt I have to. Joyce is gone; it's sad, but lets face it, Buffy will keep fighting, and we'll be there.
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This was the best night of televison so far this year. First off, Buffy the Vampire Slayer's "The Body" was one of the best - written, directed, and acted out ever in Buffy history. It was extremely hard not to cry during this masterpiece. But I was soon cheered up By tonight's Angel. Entitled "Ephiphany," this is the episode where Angel finally realizes his mistakes and his true purpose in life and eventually makes amends with Wesley, Gunn and Cordelia. The ending was great. Overall, I can't see myself watching anything else on Tuesdays anymore.Overall: Buffy: FOUR STARS
Angel: THREE & THREE QUARTERS STARS -
Feb 28, 2001 12:57:15 PM CST
One of, if not the greatest episode of television I've ever seen
by shrevie
It's right up there with Andre Braugher's last episode of Homicide, Moonlighting's Taming of the Shrew, the best of Twilight Zone, Playhouse 90 and Buffy's own Hush. But this one seemed to transcend TV. It was truly, brilliantly cinematic. Simple, existential moments containing such power and the strangeness of reality. Buffy possesses the best storytelling I've ever seen on television and last night's masterpiece was the epitome of it's ideals. Why pay ten bucks (in NYC) at the movies to see an overblown, visual assault when you can stay home on Tuesday and experience ideas expressed so clearly by people who take those ideas and their audience this seriously, and with obvious love.
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I'm not really a big Buffy fan or anything, but I was sitting there watching this episode, thinking that no WAY should this show be THIS good. No WAY. The little surreal things, like the paramedics head cut off the screen as he tells Buffy her mother's dead--the silence--the way the outdoors was just a little too bright--even the way Buffy's wish
sequence was edited so her mother's last word was slightly cut off...You're watching this episode knowing that it's going to go down as one of the best episodes ever...Jeez, I don't have time to get addicted to this show! -
was when Buffy asked Tara if Tara's mom's death was sudden. "No...yes. It's always sudden." I lost my grandmother to cancer, and even though we knew for a while that she was going to die soon... it was still a sudden loss, and I cried for quite a while. This episode was very touching and if they cheapen it by having Joyce come back, I will be sorely disappointed. (unless Joyce takes on an eery non-human shell quality like the "Monkey's Paw.")
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Sorry but I did not like buffy this week. It did not make me cry. I did cry when april died last week. I would like to have seen Spike in this show to see his reaction. I hope they will keep his buffy-bot around for more than one show so he can have scenes with buffy and she can still hate him. I thought the vampire in the morgue was good. When dawn walked in there,'I thought be careful, one might sit up.' Also vampires in "salem's Lot" did not have to be buried to rise. I'm from Okla. so I didn't much like the hick remark. I read in the USA in-box that christian kane who plays lindsey is from Okla. and when he was 18, took off for Calif. in his truck to be an actor. I think it said he is 26 now. Anyway even if he was out to kill angel, maybe lindsey didn't want to be noticed in a bmw or whatever. I also had closed captioning on my tv so I was surprised when I saw (Buffy's thinking) before the line "absolutely. we lie to make you feel better."
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Well, cinematic is one way to look at this episode. A ponderous, obvious spectacle is another way. I despise the "Scooby Gang" as it is, but to have to endure their unbelievable blubbering over poor Joyce's demise was just too much. Miserable acting was taken to new heights in "The Body" except for a few isolated moments. Yes, given what passes for the Oscars this year, I'd say some of these moments might indeed be Oscar-worthy. But if you graduated from somewhere besides the Jim Carrey School of Acting you'd easily see that this episode is an embarrassment to Mr. Whedon or anyone else for that matter.
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Glory was behind this death thing. I mean, lets be honest. She wants to HURT Buffy the worst way possible, what way worst than to kill her mother but leave it with unexplained causes? I mean, she can't blame anyone which leaves her confused and not caring about much. If Glory had left telltale signs then Buffy would be angry, not hurt but pissed. I hope Whedon doesn't screw himself by going the "She's not dead" path but I think he's smarter than that. But I wouldn't count out that Glory had nothing to do with this one yet boys and girls, I have a feeling Joss is going to pull a rabbit from his hat. Be prepared for the strange conclusion to this year..or at least I hope this year picks up cause well, I has been weaker than Angel by a mile. -
Feb 28, 2001 3:55:56 PM CST
Why Joyce needs to stay dead, why the talkbackers with attitude
by hobgoblin
I have not posted in eons, being that the entire state of Talkback has been muddled in negativity for quite some time. What passes for Talkback now is a silly contest of oneupmanship with the rare insightly posts of some people with real insight largely ignored. Flame if ya want... I've been here before and it effects me not at all.--- On to the topic: Joyce. Sorry, folks, but Joss is not a moron. Joyce will not return, and not only because it would cheapen the excellent work done in The Body. Joss always has his eyes on the future and I personally can't wait to see what happens now that Mommy Dearest has passed away... I'm hoping this will mean that we will finally have an opportunity to finally meet Daddy Summers. Buffy's dad making an appearence now would only add to the show. How would Buffy treat him? Would there be a need for approval? A desire to know him better? How would she deal with the second wife secretary? How will she deal with her hatred of the father, especially since Mommy will now be ideal in memory? These are all important issues that will make The Slayer more interesting and give the show a new dose of life. Should be interesting.--- As for you who did not like the show? What else is new? Oh if only some of you out there could just have your own t.v. show and show us how it's done. Joss offers you a brilliant story of real human drama with masterful camera work... and it's not good enough. You get to see a show that's better than 99% of what's on the tube passing for entertainment ("Charmed" anyone?), and you have to nit pic and bitch. Based on the Talkbacks of over a year now, I don't know why this attitude surprises me. I guess I never get used to people being ungrateful when this life offers us a real gift. Speaking as someone who lost a father just recently, this show was realistic and moving. For those who "did not get" certain scenes... you weren't supposed to. Death is stupid and hurtful and dumb. It's also a life lesson. I'd say Buffy and Co. are learning it well. My advice, for what it's worth to you? Stop being a critic and start being a fan. It's more fun and we have enough Roger Ebert's in the world.--- As for the vampire in the morgue? Yes it was to show how life does go on, but also to show you that after brutally killing said vampire, the entire event lost it's meaning after it was done. For Buffy, all there was in her world was Dawn... the vampire was less than a memory and it shows that the vampire (and hence all of the vampire slaying in Buffy's life) was not that important... it's PART of who she is, and not ALL that she is. -- Just my two cents, take it for the positive way it's intended, or do the REALLY unexpected thing (yeah, right) and flame it to death. Doesn't matter to me. Made the road rise to meet you- HobGoblin
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Greetings fellow Slayer fans. This would be the first fan letter I have ever written but after last nights episode I felt compelled to put words down.
I work at FOX and I couldn't be happier for Joss. I love to see great television that moves you in many different ways in the corse of an hour. I'm a big fan of The Sopranos but last nights episode will stand up against
ANYTHING that has ever been on TV.
Every cast member delivers an
award winning performance - Whedon
had better get writing and directing nominations out of this.
All of the technical credits are
rock solid. I thought in many ways that "Hush" would always be my favorite but it just got moved to 2nd place. I would hope that the television academy would wake up and smell the coffee. Buffy the Vampire Slayer may be a title
you have a problem with but you need to get over it. People are busting their collective asses to
bring you the best television show on the air - bar none.
Granted, Buffy's makeup crew does some outstanding work but how about some nominations for the writers, directors and actors!!??
My apologies for going on but I'm sick of the show getting the short shrift on award shows.
Just a quick note on the loss of
Joyce. I love Kristine Sutherland's performance. I hope the writers are imaginative to bring her back in some fashion, i.e., ghost or flashbacks. Maybe
they'll find a way to resurrect her for real. I will miss her.
Break-a-leg Kristine on your future opportunities.
To the cast and crew of Buffy -
you rock!
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Can't. . .read them. . .all. . .Eyes. . .bleeding. . .Too. . .much. . .loquatiousnessuhhhhhhh
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I still think Angel may now have the permanent ability to enter uninvited. If you look at the scene at Wesley's apartment, Angel isn't struggling against whatever force keeps him out. It seemed to me that it was more instinctive for him to ask for an invite. I don't know, mabe I'm reaching here. Then again, mabe not.
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Remember the last scene with Kate and Angel? Kate indicates that she believes that a higher power is watching over them (ie the PTB). Angel asks why, to which she replies "I never invited you in." I tend to think this was a one-time effect, as Kate was in no position to invite him in whereas Wesley was able to do it. Remains to be seen though. As for Lindsey, think about it: if you were going to kick the crap out of a vampire, would you wear a suit and tie or would you break out the shitkickers and the flannel? :)
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...it even made me briefly doubt that "The West Wing" is the best show on television. (!!!)
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Yeah, great episode, I cried blahblahblah... About the "badly dubbed doctor". It was supposed to be that way! Buffy was freaking out, going on weird mind-trippy-like things. That's not what the doctor said, but it's what Buffy heard. Get it? As for Joyce-on-the-comeback-trail, Kristine Sutherland lives in Italy, and that's, like, really far away. I doubt she'll even be in any flashback scenes. She's moving on, partner.
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I've tried to post this five times and am now tired, so I'm going to ditch the long, poetic tribute to Buffy I'd orginally composed. I would still like to say though, that after five years of being a Buffy watcher, and enduring all the snotty feedback from NBC-Jennifer Aniston Wannabes, I feel completely vindicated. Last night's epidsode was ART. Beautiful. And as one who has dealt with a parent's illness, I would like to commend Team Whedon (who will never read this, but moving on) for getting everything so completely right! Thank you!
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OMG! This episode was amazing, I had to wait till Wed. to see it as, our WB affiliate is a day behind. But it was sooo worth the wait. I loved the acting, every single cast member's performance just tugged at my heart. Anya's sudden grief at dealing with mortality (again) was stunning. And Michelle Trachtenberg, shows she's surely gonna be around for a long time in this business, she's a great actress and looks like she's going to be a really beatiful woman. I loved the cinematography too, it reminds me of Steven Soderbergh's work in Traffic. And using no music, whoa that made the final scene in the autopsy room so damn erie! This series is becomming one of my all time favs. I only wish I had gotten into it sooner. The writting is incredible and the acting is sharp. This episode must get nominated for some Emmys, if not you can count me in as a member of the Hercules TV Academy. And sorry for being a pig, but that kiss bw Willow and Tara was hot. Overall this episode left me wanting the series to become a nightly event. Go BUFFY!
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I never cared to take the time to post a message on any fan board but, this episode deserves much more than my two cents.
I have personally lost two close family members. Both of whom died at relatively young ages (20 & 26). One of cancer and one of an auto accident.
Joss Whedon nailed it!! Every detail. Each characters different response. The feelings...the numbness...the blur of it all. This was the closest to life experience on this subject I have ever seen in a movie or telivision show. Many tears and MANY KUDOS to all involved. -
Well, I figured this was gonna be a serious episode...a *serious* serious episode...but having just caught it on a friend's borrowed tape...damn, I had no idea what I was in for. It would've moved me no matter what, but I'm right in the middle of a shitty cold - feeling lame and depressed already - and in that weirdly emotional state, the episode pretty much kicked my ass down an emotional stairwell. Felt like I was watching the ending of "Watership Down" or "Glory" for an hour. Very wrenching. As with many of the Talkbackers, I found the episode really hit home in its realism. My dad's been in and out of hospitals for very serious treatments over the course of the last year, and the experience has been enough to make me almost hate bumping into "ER" or any other doctor shows. I get enough goddamn "real life" in reality, y'know? And even on a generally fantasy-oriented show like "Buffy", it's hard to actually call the reality of death "very entertaining!" or say the episode was a lot of fun. But I think it *was* great, or something very close to greatness. I'm surprised to see any criticism of the various characters' reactions. Alyson Hannigan was fantastic, as moving and heartfelt as she was when Oz left a season or two back. Her character's been lacking for most of this season, but that's more the fault of the writers than anything else. Hannigan is a genuinely gifted actress when she has good material, and it's nice to see the show giving her some again. Hey, she used to be my favorite character. And for once even Anya was used to great effect. When she began to break up, I was afraid her first real attempt at drama would ruin the scene, but I must admit that her childlike inability to cope with the situation was surprisingly moving. Tara's scene with Buffy was maybe my favorite, just because it perfectly captured how hard it is to express grief sometimes, especially with someone you're not extremely close to. It seemed like the right thing would be for Tara and Buffy to hug, cry together, whatever, but sometimes, those nice emotional releases just don't happen. Heavy, heavy episode. Even little moments like seeing Xander hugging Giles were affecting. I've gotta ruminate on the episode a bit more before I can fully digest it, but I can say with certainty that it's the show's all-time dramatic peak. Would I call it my favorite episode? Well, it's so different from the show's usual tone that I don't see the point in classifying it as the best or second best or what have you. How do you compare it to something like "Hush"? You don't. Both are brilliant episodes on their own terms. ****** Now, I think I'm going to have to retire from these "Buffy" Talkbacks for a while. I'm such an anti-spoiler fiend that I'm just not willing to risk stumbling across inside info and ruining great episodes like "The Body". I dig how the speculative side appeals to fans of serialized stories in any format, but I take too much enjoyment in watching a story unfold and surprise me to hang with you guys 'n' gals. Ah well, on the odd occasion I'd post about "Buffy", it was usually just to gripe about the hit and miss qaulity of this season anyway. Or to dog on "Angel" a bit, always fun. But "The Body", like Spike's origin episode or the Tara-centric episode, reminded me that the show can hit some damn fine peaks, even five seasons in. And I want those peaks to continue surprising me.
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but I have to say that The Body" was one of the most amazing episodes I've seen-I had an Aunt Joyce who died over a year ago and it really hit home. So many heartbreaking moments-from Willow's sweater search,Xander putting his hand thru the wall,Buffy and Tara bonding(I always liked her)and Dawn reaching out to her mom-it's hard to chose which one was the best. I don't think Joyce will be coming back from the dead but I have this image of Buffy at her mother's grave talking to her and saying "Don't worry about me-I'll be taken care" with a hand touching her shoulder and hearing Spike's voice"Thought both your girls should give their respects"! Spike & Joyce got along pretty much and it wouldn't surpise me if he used the Buffybot to help get over her death(not that he'ld mourn long). As for Angel,I knew before Darla did that Angel still had his soul and he didn't stake her because as he said,she saved him from that psycho slump he was in. Lindsey going country boy crazy with the sledgehammer was cool-if he gets some kind of demon power,that boy'll be a true force to be reckoned with!
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I don't know what they are, but I seem to recall there being X number of stages to grief (denial, anger, etc.)
If that's the case, I'd be real interested to see how they "match up" to "The Body". For some reason, I'm feeling that Joss put all the stages in there and in my mind, would only enhance the episode further. -
Your rundown of the scooby gang seems pretty on target. I'm really interested in what they're planning for Xander at this point. They've been developing a subplot for him all along, I think. If you go back to Restless, I found his sequence to be the most disturbing, psychologically anyway. He's not dealing nearly as well as he is letting on. Did you notice what Tara said to him after he stared at his bloody hand? I think those two have a kind of understanding, since it's been indicated that they both come from similarly crappy home situations. They're both terribly insecure (Tara's stuttering and Xander's wisecracking). Interesting that Willow has, at some point, been in love with each of them.
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It feels good to know that a fellow talkbacker feels the same way I do about these things. I have been stating for a while now that I think Xander is going to have a big role in the finale. He's had the best character building this year. (Well ok, there might be an arguement about Spike claiming that title, but I digress) It would just seem like such a waste to me if the writers at Team Whedon do such a great job with his character this year only to blow it at the end. If you want, I'll e-mail you my own theory about Xander's destiny. I care for these characters and Buffy and Angel are the only shows I actually take time out of my life to watch. Every other night I'm just like, "Ok, what's on HBO tonight?" Btw, Cormy, I agree with you that this episode cannot be compared to any other episode of Buffy. (Or Angel for that matter.) It stands as it's own... A powerful episode that as Herc puts it was " better then most movies."
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Great episode, on par with anything i've ever seen on television.******Anyways, there were a few little things i noticed that were odd little additions, somewhat extraneous to the story itself. The art teacher in Dawn's school looks almost exactly like Joyce, very strange..., and the way she was watching Buffy and Dawn from inside the classroom, being put into a medium close up all her own when otherwise she was barely a part of the scene seemed like it was supposed to mean something, or perhaps it was just more of the usual strangeness of the whole situation, any theories? As well, in Buffy's Christmas daydream Joyce calls Buffy her "little demon child", or something to that effect. Seems like a little hint or clue as to events later in the series. Perhaps Buffy's father returns and we find out that he, probably like the fathers of all the slayers, is some kind of demon, creature or supernatural being, appearing human, but really something else?
It's all speculation on my part, what do you think? -
Interesting theory, re: Slayers fathers. If they were demons, they could be using the Slayers as a way of cleansing the Earth of Vamps for their own nefarious purposes. (Invasion perhaps?) I like the reversal idea of a force of good being used as a tool for a greater evil. . . Probably not going to happen but it's a neat idea.
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First: Joyce is dead. Sorry to all of you who expect her to be raised by Dawn, but it's not going to happen. Kristine Sutherland has stated in many interviews that she wanted to spend more time with her family, so Joss has written her out. Also, to bring her back would completely destroy this episode and make it a cheap attempt at pulling the heart strings.****
Second: Rugiger - Giles won't get custody of the Summers girls. It might be different in America, but in England once you're 18 then no-one has custody of you. And there's no way the courts will award custody of a young girl to the friend of her sister. ****
Third: If the father does come back (as he should), I don't think his new wife will be coming as well. He might be an asshole for breaking off contact, but from what we've seen of him he's not so evil as to bring the woman his daughters don't know and will probably hate at this time. If he does come back, then I can imagine him staying for a couple of episodes, looking after Dawn. When Buffy is out slaying etc., he will criticise her for abandoning Dawn (not knowing about her other life). I wouldn't want to be him when he does.****
Fourth - the depictions of grief were extremely accurate. Willow is trying desperately to concentrate on something else, Giles is trying to be as supportive for Buffy as humanly possible, Tara is feeling extremely awkward & Anya doesn't understand. All of these are typical reactions to the death of a friend. Buffy & Dawn are both spot on - unable to fully deal with or even comprehend what has just happened to them. I know for a fact that Xander's reaction is genuine, it's just how I deal with death (I've had plenty of practice). Xander does have extreme anger issues, which is why he is willing to get so violent with Spike - he just needs someone to vent his anger on, and not feel guilty about it the next day. He must feel dead inside himself, and this hints at a darker side to Xander that should be fully explored. I've said before that Xander's the most human (and therefore most interesting) character on the show. If this is how he reacts to the death of a friend's mother, then imagine what would happen if he lost Anya. My guess is that he'd make smoking-Angel look like the Happy Gnome Of Joy. My campaign for Xander's crusade of fury starts here. Who's with me?****
Finally: IBLIS Technomage - have pity on the UK, we already get Buffy and Angel on 2 different networks. The channel that picked up Angel (the evil and imaginatively named Channel 4) started showing it several weeks before Buffy's season 3 ended. They then messed about with it so much hacking it to pieces and changing the airing times (one episode at 5.30 one week, the next at 11.30 the week after, then two next week etc.) before pulling it from the schedules due to "complaints about it's contents". They then decided to show the last 12 episodes over four weeks after midnight on Sundays. The season finished before Buffy was at episode 12 of season 4. And apparantly they've got the rights to the next season as well. Damn.****
My god is this post long. -
Never have I laughed so hard at the liberal crybabies than reading these talkbacks. You guys cried at a fictional TV show!? I thought I was watching an episode of Party of five with the cheesy over acting and crazy Oliver Stone camera angels and cut scenes. Enough crazy stuff has happened to these guys to make them drool in a corner for life and a family member tanks due to a non-supernatural cause and they all go Stepford. Why don
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Who the hell are you to say how people should feel? Are you the emotion police? So, you didn't like the episode, fine, that's your opinion. But don't you dare tell me how I should feel. If I was affected by the fine writing, acting and direction, then I was. Also, asshole, if you had bothered to read many of these posts, you would see that the reason so many people were emotional over THE BODY is because they related to it. How DARE you tell anyone who has suffered a loss that they have no right to feel anything when they watch a show that presents loss in such an honest way. Maybe you're lucky enough to have never experienced a loss of someone close; maybe THE BODY didn't affect you. But I (and others) have a right to be moved. And what the hell does donating money to a worthy cause have to do with it? Is enjoying a TV show and giving to charity mutually exclusive? WTF? And yeah, I bet you give a lot of time and money to charity. Pompous asses such as yourself are so understanding and giving, not to mention empathetic. Asshole.
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I haven't seen trolling that bad since Cuthbert51 called Jackie Chan fans child molesters. Jet a life you dumb fuck.
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SourPuzz's post was a bit of trolling worthy of the "alt" heirarchy of Usenet (or "Alt-Lantis", as I like to call it)!
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For the last year, I've considered Emma Caulfield the finest comic actress on television. After she unexpectedly tore my heart out trying to understand death and express her grief to Buffy, I now believe her to be one of the finest actresses on TV period.
And sorry, but Amber Benson really has bulked up this season. The only mistake Joss made direction-wise was having Tara and Buffy sit together at the hospital. It looked like a before and after Slim-Fast ad. Nice to see her and Willow finally lock lips, though. -
So *what* if she looks a little chunky (which she doesn't, btw). What the hell does that have to do with her acting, or her fine preformance in The Body? And this goes for those of you who think Nicky Brendon has gained weight, too! BUFFY strives to show great characterations, and if some of the people in the cast gain weight, SO WHAT? That happens is real life, too! What the heck does it have to do with anything? Sure, yeah, it's their job to look good, you say. No, they are not models, they are actors. They work 12-16 hour days when BUFFY is in production, their job is to be on the set and act their butts off. Sheesh, some of you people are so SHALLOW.
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Well, i always have a hard time reading most fanatical ravings about Buffy, since it can often degrade into juvenile nitpicking over fantasy facts, or insignificant things like actors looks and weight, but this episode has spurned fewer of those rantings and at least brought many people up a notch or two in terms os thoughtfullness. Buffys storytelling always amazes me becasue they can turn a goofy sounding plotline like "Robert Girl searches for her creator" or "Willows Wishes come true" and turn them into funny oo emotionally involing stories. In terms of style, while "The Body" stands out like a sore thumb when placed next to even the most serious Buffy episode, it was an etremely welcome deviation and everyone involved should be commended. Its amazing that a show like Buffy is relegated to a cult audience, but millions tune in to crud like Survivor and WHo Wants to be a Millionaire?. Even popular dramas like The Practice and ER, i think would be hard pressed to turn in a single episode as thoughtful, intelligent, and emotionally centered as Buffys "The Body. i'm glad i was bedridden a few years back and my remote was out of reach so i had to watch Buffy. i've been a fan ever since, and with writing like "The Body" i'll remain one.
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THE BODY was an obvious attempt to win a few Emmys (Emmies?). Not that I'm complaining, Joss & Co. deserve a few for the consistantly high quality of writing and production. However, this was not the best show ever, but I would put it in the top 10. What made it work was that fact that we've all grown deeply attached to the characters in the buffyverse. This show would not have worked in the first season. Between the lack of background music, the odd camera angles and framing, and the look into buffy's inner thoughts, THE BODY felt like an Ingmar Bergman artfilm. Casual viewers were probably put-off by whole thing, I can only wonder what the members of the academy will think when they view this episode. They may appreciate the film school pyrotechnics, but will it have the gut-wrenching emotional effect that it had on us devoted buffyheads. (new paragraph) JOYCE IS NOT DEAD! Others have suggested that it would be a cheap cop-out for Joss to bring back Joyce, besides Kristine lives in Italy and wants off the show ... But what is Joss, if not the master of the sudden left-turn. Who says Joyce has to leave right now? What if they bring her back, only to actually kill her off once-and-for-all. Imagine, the emotional rollercoaster that would be! What if Glory/Ben have actually kidnapped Joyce and have morphed into Joyce's form in order to overhear Buffy's conversations and find out the location of THE KEY. (new paragraph) Was anyone else creeped-out by the fact that Joyce's eyes were open the entire episode -- why didn't someone close them? Oh well ... this post is so late that I'm probably just talking to myself!
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I agree with so much of what has been posted here. This is up in the top five Buffys, along with Becoming 1&2, Hush, and Prophecy Girl. Eveything rang true, and I sat though the whole thing (twice) feeling the turmoil of the characters.
IMHO, the end vampire was perfect. Someone once said that one of the recurring notes on BTVS is that even though Buffy is the "one girl in all the world," and fights the good fight, she still doesn't escape the crap that real-life throws at you. The vamp showed that, even though Buffy was in the middle of one of the worst things that life can throw at her, she doesn't get time off from the Slayer part of her life.
More important, this was a completely different kill for her. No art, no wise-cracks, no super-human moves, just dust the vamp. And where she has so many times kicked demon ass to get over pain, or anger, this kill did NOTHING for her. She didn't get a rush, didn't feel better, didn't save the world, and her mother was STILL dead.
Endless kudos to all on one of the best episodes, in one of the best series, on all of TV.
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