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HERC Sees April Come Early To BUFFY!!

Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.

BUFFY! ANGEL! Tuesday night!! Someone club me now!! This weekly ritual of mine is blossoming into full-on autistic meltdown!! I feel like Rain Man, standing on the porch of some poor yokel's house, smacking my forehead and screaming, "12 HOURS TO BUFFY! 12 HOURS TO BUFFY!" Damn you, as always, HERCULES THE STRONG, for seeing the show early and dropping such tantalizing hints. Here he is to torture the rest of you, too...



“I Was Made To Love You.”


Teleplay is credited to heavy-hitter Jane Espenson, who has been busy this season; she also wrote the Xander-duplicating “The Replacement” and the troll-conjuring “Triangle,” and co-wrote the Watcher-heavy “Checkpoint.”


“The bizarre mannerisms and superhuman strength of April (Shonda Farr), who's searching Sunnydale for her boyfriend, lead the gang to believe she's really a robot. Meanwhile, Buffy decides to go out on a date with Ben (Charlie Weber), but the Slayer has no idea how close he is to Glory.”


Like a jewel embedded in a staggering expanse of fecal matter, Buffy once again reminds of all that is good about the medium of television.




Yes. There’s a scene on a swingset that could tear your heart out.


They were! The opening clip package covers enormous amounts of season five plot: Dawn’s origins, the watchers’ explanations, Riley’s vampire fetish, Riley’s departure, Spike’s love, Buffy’s rejection, Dawn’s self-mutilation, and the Ben/Glory duality.


That’s the Scoobs’ unanimous theory. We learn the truth at the halfway point. When April first steps onto the streets of Sunnydale, some viewers’ reaction MIGHT be: “Hello! Third god!”


Cute enough to be a regular! Spike even hits on her!


She’s very focused. She relentlessly asks after someone named “Warren.”


Warren Mears. He looks like he could be the half-brother of “Mr. Show’s” Bob Odenkerk.


(MAJOR SPOILAGE HERE!) We learn there’s a reason Team Whedon wasn’t afraid to reveal Joyce’s death in next week’s TV Guide!


(AGAIN WITH THE MAJOR SPOILAGE!) The episode ends with Buffy unexpectedly finding the corpse of her mom on the living room couch. Executive Producer Joss Whedon!


No. In fact, the entire balance of the regular cast has turned against him. “We are not your friends,” Giles tells Spike in a menacing manner. “We are not your way to Buffy. There IS no way to Buffy. Clear out of here. And Spike, this thing. Get over it.”


Even Dawn.


No, he’s gotten all creepy again! Look for this episode to play an important part in Spike’s future.


Not on “Buffy.”


Ben, Glory and Dreg are much in evidence. The knights have yet to send in reinforcements.


Dru’s appearance was mentioned in last week’s TV Guide listing. Last week’s opening credits read “Juliet Landau as Drusilla.” Team Whedon wanted us to know about Dru going in. Toughen up, Jennifer.


Maybe. He wrote or co-wrote three of season one’s 12 teleplays, five teleplays in season two, five teleplays in season three, and four teleplays in season four. This was the first season he did not write the teleplay for the opener. Whedon’s second teleplay of season five, “The Body,” is next week’s episode. It seems almost certain that Whedon will, per tradition, author the season five finale.


The WB’s “Buffy” at 8:00, the WB’s “Angel” at 9:00, and MTV’s “Road Rules/Real World Challenge” at 10:00. Tape ABC’s “The Mole” at 8:00 and Fox’s “Dark Angel” at 9:00. Buy a TiVo and record Fox Family’s 2-hour “Freaks & Geeks” block at 8:00.



The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

**** better than most motion pictures

*** actually worth your valuable time

** as horrible as most stuff on TV

* makes you quietly pray for bulletins

I warned you not to defy me!

I am – Hercules!

Readers Talkback
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  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:57 a.m. CST


    by bdiddy

    Hey I'm first and its my first time posting... wow...

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:58 a.m. CST

    Joyce dead!?!

    by usagi

    How do I miss these things?

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 7:25 a.m. CST

    You tricked me! LOL!

    by Cactus Jack

    Hey you guys said she was gonna be found by Buffy on the episode known as The Body! Oh well you got me good that time! LOL! Can't wait to see Buffy tonight on The WB and also can't wait to see Angel as well. Those are the best shows on primetime. By the way, according to very good sources that I know, David Boreanaz will appear as Angel on The Body next week. Don't know how this will be affected by tonight's Angel but boy, wait till you see what happens on Angel tonight! It truly is a night of surprises. Email me: TREKBR@AOL.COM Bang Bang!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 7:31 a.m. CST

    huh-loooooooo, Angel?

    by Smugbug

    Oh boy, oh boy. I like this little turn of events. This is getting to be one of the best seasons of BTVS. And it is. Reason I said that? Cuz these actors by now, know the characters they portray like the back of their hands - and they are obviously wanting more, more they can twist and turn with. And it shows. Plot twists, Spike being all oogly creepy wierd, Dawn, Glory/Ben, Riley leaving and Buffy becoming a great continuously evolving central character. And I'm looking forward to Angel!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 7:39 a.m. CST

    You ain't seen nothin' yet!

    by Cactus Jack

    Oh if you think its been good up through now, you ain't seen nothin' yet! Who here would not be surprised if somehow Buffy had to fight her resurrected mother in the season finale thanks to Glory? By the way, just about everyone who has ever been on Buffy that is still around will appear on the season finale. This includes Faith, Oz, Riley, Angel and Cordelia! Plans could change but that is what I heard Joss Whedon just might be planning. Email me: TREKBR@AOL.COM Bang Bang!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:03 a.m. CST

    JOYCE doesn't count for Hotpocket wagering?

    by RenoNevada2000

    Wasn't it stated that Hotpocket Death Poll wagering was for Anyone after Episode 17? So that would disqualify Joyce wouldn't it? Just checking before I make my wager this week.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:04 a.m. CST

    I never heard LOL so much in reference to a death before Jack

    by sundown

    but then again what do you expect from someone who pulls a sock from their crotch and fights in Japanese death matches??? Anyways looks like B will rock again. The pressures of Dawn Riley and Joyce will build as Glory looms. B in strife=cool shows. Even season 4 was good while she was getting over Angel and being gilted in the beginning. It was at its best in 3 when Faith was a murderer and Angel was all wonky. Now she has all these problems and heart breaks and a villain who kicks her ass every time... I think this season will play out better than last...and it looks like the body is the episode AFTER the death. Take that smart fans.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:08 a.m. CST

    Hot Pocket ruling -Reno

    by sundown

    I think G wouldn't mind if I ruled on this. I think if you predicted she would die (or wouldn't) before the article in TV guide you are forced to honor the wager. The 17th show was just for the final push when betting STOPS. Otherwise it is a case by case basis unless spoiled. And from what I understand another major character dies so keep the bets a comin' ain't over yet.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:32 a.m. CST

    Ooohhh... are we getting deeper into the mystery this week?!?

    by Psyclops

    Who is this mysterious third entity of superhuman strength? Why is she suddenly in Sunnydale? Will she in fact be the third God in Glory's little universe... or as Xander would put it, an evil 'Demon-Bot'! Or... maybe she's just very "focused". I myself have been accused of being a robot many times. Usually at all the wrong moments if you catch my drift, but let's get back to Buffy, shall we? I wonder if Kristine Sutherland will leave the show. I know she's going to die by the end of the episode, but does that have some specific purpose in the long run. Is she really dead? I don't think anyone has really thought about the impact her death would have on Buffy. After tonight, the show could become very dark and very serious. I believe Joyce's death will tear Buffy and Dawn apart.... she's more than just some peripheral character. She's mom.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:49 a.m. CST

    will she come back as a ghost?

    by sundown

    well someone has too!!! Also Xander thought his other self was a robot too. He thinks everything is a robot.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:51 a.m. CST

    see ya Joyce

    by Twig

    I predict some amazing acting by SMG in that episode. As for Spike, I was liking how he'd become sort of a good guy and I hope they're not gonna make him like the old Spike(not that he wasn't great then too). And what's this I hear about Jenny Calendar returning to Buffy next year? Wouldn't that be more of an Angel move?

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 9:02 a.m. CST

    "It's an Evil robot made from Evil parts put together to do Evil

    by Vincent D.

    Well, I'm kind of dissapointed that Spike is going back to the weird side. I was hoping that there would be some "love overcomes", but alas, it looks like we'll have to watch a whole season of sympathy drain away as he turns all creepy. Damn.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 9:26 a.m. CST

    Spike's not turning creepy, just pathetic

    by cuznjean

    I read Loey's early-bird summary for this ep and I'm mourning more for the death of Spike's dignity than I am for Joyce. I'm predicting that the writers are going to continue to play "kick the Spike" until he bottoms out, and then he'll get a grip and start trying to reinvent himself. Whether it's as a bigger, badder, big bad or as someone who's worthy of Buffy's affections, I have no idea, but crazed 'shipper that I am, either way would be an improvement on Spike's current condition.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 10:01 a.m. CST

    This mirrors an episode of Batman Beyond VERY closely.

    by superninja

    That came out this past season. People who worked on the set confirmed this for me.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 10:41 a.m. CST

    well Ninja be a good little Ninja spy thingy an elaborate!

    by sundown

    heh heh and not to disagree but methinks Willow DOES suck ass... although not in the sense her character is bad just a necessity of her current proclivity. In other words she be a lesbo. You are right about on ething E boy and thats the sad state of the background characters on B. Remember the season opener joke while on the beach staring at Riley about how they are all sidekicks? It is true they are. And while Gunn Cordy and Wesley are forced to grow and conquer REAL issues all the scoobs do is date and research for B. They are very removed from the action until the "its beat up the monster time" otherwise they have little to do with the plot. Just a few thoughts complements of 'geek nation'. Oh and Sninja don't leave us hangin like that...if you got something to say, say it!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:22 a.m. CST


    by Diz

    OK, back to the whole soul issue... Stick with me, I am just rambling, but I might hit on something good. What is a soul? Well, to me, anyway, it is more than a chip in the head. The chip in Spike's head *punishes* him when he wants to do harm. A soul has to be more than that. I believe that a vampire is nothing more than a transformed human. The soul still exists, but there is a drive to feed, and the conscience is obliterated. Plus, the human now has hightened powers. A demonized human. I wouldn't go by anything Buffy has said about the process; until Angel, there was never a vamp to ask about the process. It just doesn't make any sense to me that there is a whole new entity, who not only looks like the person they were, but talks like them, moves like them, thinks like them. Like someone mentioned before, why would Darla want to be a vamp again unless she knew she wouldn't die? And what about Anya? She was a human who was turned into a demon, and then turned into a human again. Has anyone questioned her soul's whereabouts? So, as far as Spike is concerned, I do believe he could regain his conscience. It would go against his nature, it might drive him mad to try, but I think he could do it. The look he gave before he fed on the dead girl proves it to me. Anyway, about vamps going to hell, here is my take: to become a vamp, you must drink a vamps blood. There is an implication of consent. Perhaps when a human makes the decision to become a vampire, it damns their soul. So Angel would go to hell just for that decision. In other words, it's not the acts they commit as a vampire that damns them. {SORT OF SPOILER} Not related, but I saw someone post on another TB that Ethen may be behind Joyce's death, and that it is an elaborate hoax. I hope not, because BUFFY will then be entering that dangerous area where anything's possible, and anything can be undone to suit a plot. How could I trust anything if I know it might just be magic, not the truth?

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Allright sundown...SPOILER WARNING

    by superninja

    April is a robot created by supernerdloser Warren because he couldn't get a real date. Warren tries to ditch her, but she tracks him from town to town, her sole purpose to "love" him. Given her super strength, this makes her dangerous, particularly when any other women endanger her relationship with Warren, who of course has a new girlfriend, and who of course turns out to be both a coward and a loser and sicks April on Buffy, hoping Buffy will get rid of her. Batman Beyond aired an episode in Season 2 called: Terry's Friend Dates A Robot. A nerd has a girlfriend built so he can look cool in school, but things go haywire when the beautiful robot begins to behave violently, forcing Batman to shut her down.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 12:01 p.m. CST

    Alyson dates Alexander who is Wesley on Angel.

    by superninja

    I totally agree with you COMEDIAN about the Scoobies being lame. Anya is amusing at times, but they always play her for the same sort of laugh -- fish out of water. Tara and Willow are possibly the biggest snooze-fest couple on t.v. right now. I can't stand watching them together, and I don't fault the actors, it's the writing. Giles is the only one who still holds my interest.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 12:20 p.m. CST

    Buffy is getting crappy

    by 2GOLD

    Bring out the bulldozers and turn this show into a parking lot! Good grief, the main villian is a god who DOES NOTHING! I mean, shouldn't she be I don't know, LOOKING FOR THE KEY! For god sakes, SHE'S ASKING MAILMEN! I mean, she's not a god..rather a lazy office temp with a awesome bod that you just want to bang before you fire! And Ben..he's a plain out punk who either needs to die or DO SOMETHING! Why is it the key is the MAIN PLOT, but NO ONE IS LOOKING FOR IT! I mean, if you were a monk wouldn't you have rather sent the key to the slayer and as a god, shouldn't you be able to figure this out!!! I'm just waiting for Glory to go walking up and down the streets saying, "Have you seen my key? Come on, I'll be your friend." JUST LOOK FOR IT! I mean, how big IS SUNNYDALE ANYWAY!!! And why is it the Watcher's KNOW that crazy people can see the key but GLORY DOESN'T KNOW! And if she does know, why not USE THAT to her ADVANTAGE! Good grief, at least ANGEL is coming on tonight with the ULTRA HOTTIE Julie Benz back in the saddle again (even after being burned she looked hot).

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 12:28 p.m. CST

    "Is Allison Hannigan gay in real life or something?"

    by Diz

    Yes, and Sara is a slayer, James is a vampire, and Michelle is a key. Lord, it's called acting. Give Joss more credit than to make a plot just because his actors are one way or another.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 12:49 p.m. CST

    Tonights Angel. HEAVY SPOILERS

    by Chambers

    Ok I saw the episode. It kicks Buffy's butt bigtime. In this episode one or all of the following happen: Angel turns evil. Demon sets up cordelia and kills her. Kate loses her job. Wesley dies from his old wound. Gunn leaves the team for his hood. Kate dies. Angel travels to the 'home office'. Darla mentions Dru is gone forever. Ok I can guarantee some if not all of that happens or you are lead to believe all that happens. Wait we are lead to believe all that happens. Buffy's mom dies vs. EVERYONE dies on Angel but Gunn, and Angel turning evil? Angel again comes forward and kicks Buffy's butt. The commercials for this episode dont hint at how jaw dropping this episode is. No tricks either this stuff happens. Just your normal Joss tricks, but this episode kicks ass.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 12:56 p.m. CST

    wait.......I KNOW I've been watching a really really good season

    by Smugbug

    I've read some of these posts - and I'm lost. Lost cuz, I know this season has been extremely interesting! I for one would not want the same, Buffy goes looking for Demons and Vamps, Buffy kills Bad Demons and Vamps, etc. Folks this is a show with some great characters! I also am glad at the Willow/Tara pair up. They do work well together. What, does it bug you that they don't fight often (or at all) and get along allright? Mr. Whedon has done a sensational job of forging real world problems, issues and fantasy, horror elements. The whole Spike thing I find very amusing and a welcome addition to the story arc. I say let Marsden do some creative character building with Spike's love puppy act. Yes, I do believe that Cordie, Gunn and Wesley could beat the snot out of the Scoobs right now. But, oh wouldn't it be cool if a crossover occured that was built around the two teams assisting each other out? The Scoobs' brain power and research expertise coupled with Gunn, Cordies, and Wesley's will to succeed over the evil bad of LA. too cool. Angel wasn't created as a comparison to Buffy. Sure, it is inevitable that people would try to compare - but we're talkin' two different shows here! I do have a wish list of what I'd like to see in either shows. But, guess what...I AIN'T Josh Whedon! He calls the shots. And I say he's done a splendid job of it this season. Wow. Both shows have been making me wanting more - and I say that makes them a success. You're telling me that these shows have been pushing away people and making them turn to (yikes) "Dark Angel"? Yeah, right.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 1:19 p.m. CST


    by insincere_dave

    Admittedly these guys do need some trimming, but there's no way Xander should be included in the useless department. He's the core of the group (as shown in Primeval), the one Buffy & Willow turn to when they need help & advice. He's the most human character on the show, he hasn't let the Hellmouth dominate his life & has grown to be more independant than either Buffy or Willow. He's not a Kung-Fu fighter and he knows fuck all about magic or demons, but he's there anyway, putting his life on the line over and over again. It was him who went to save Buffy from the Master in Prophecy Girl, and again backed her up in Becoming (despite a badly broken arm). The only thing holding him back is the lack of pain in his life. Buffy lost Angel (several times) and will now lose Joyce, Willow was deserted by Oz and then realised she was gay (actually, I think she'd have to be bisexual) & Giles found the woman he loved dead on his bed. Xander has had it pretty easy (he broke up with Cordelia, but it wasn't really heartbreaking was it?). If someone close to him were to die (especially at the hands of a vampire), then we'd see Xander at the front, where he should be. If he was the one who needed help & support then things really would get interesting. If he started patrolling on his own, taking risks and started to descend into darkness, then THAT would be a story arc to remember. Watching Buffy, Giles & Willow battling to save Xander from himself would work so much better than any emotional dilemma the show has seen before. The Buffy/Angel thing got boring by the middle of season 3, season 4 had nothing personal to offer (apart from the "don't lose your friends" message in the penultimate episode). In season 5, Riley's departure was inevitable and not too painful for buffy & now the death of Joyce will finally spark things up emotionally. In fact, I've just had a good idea: in episode 100, Anya could die at the end of whatever big battle there's going to be, with Buffy telling Xander at the very end of the show. Cliffhanger ending until season six, which shows us a few weeks later & Xander has started to lose control & the desire to go on. Having a story like this centre around someone other than Buffy would be a very pleasant change & could go on for much of the season. Xander's the best character of the show, let's not see him wasted like in season 4.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 2:10 p.m. CST

    God, I love you guys!

    by Sylvia Simon

    My head is swimming with the groovy possibilties mentioned above! It would be very interesting if Anya died, leaving Xander to re-examine his life. And since Anya has said that she fears death now that she is mortal and only has 50 or 60 years left, it would be all the more heartwrenching if she died "so young". Can't wait 'til the shows....

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 2:15 p.m. CST

    Buffy's stale.

    by superninja

    It's just lacking in freshness that made the show great. Are the actors tired? Maybe. The Scoobies aren't getting much development. They've wisely begun centering the show around Marsters and Gellar, and Glory is still the most boring Buffy villain, ever. I'm looking forward to Angel tonight, though! It looks to be a great one. Angel's going to hell, and he's taking us with him!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 2:23 p.m. CST

    season 4 & 5

    by rdaswing

    I've watched Buffy on and off since it began and i gotta say it hasn't improved with age. Before you jump all over me let me say that season 5 has had some very good episodes. The episode about Spike's history was great but thats a tribute to Madson's acting ability. Just about since his introduction Spike has been the best character in the Buffy world. As a villian he was certainly the most interesting and funny. However since making him a "good guy" the writers have routinely abused him. There was a point when if Spike had killed off all the characters and it had just been an hour of him i would have been happy. In fact, i believe that a show dealing with his past, one that let him be evil would be incredible. But back to Buffy. As the show has progressed, it has moved into stronger territory without becoming stronger. Most of season 4 was just stupid, it was mainly Buffy whining and killing. The characters have not faired well outside of High School. Nor have the villians. Glory is just boring. A villian who whines all the time, how threatening is that? What happened to the villians who were scary? The Master, Spike, Angelus and the Mayor? I respect Whedon for trying new things, ie the wordless episode, the season 4 finale and the increased humor. But they're not enough. Buffy is a show about horror that's not even remotely scary.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 2:33 p.m. CST

    Oh Yeah Manners returns from the grave on Angel

    by Chambers

    I forgot that in the list of other things. Holland Manners returns from the grave to torture Angel's soul to force him to lose it. The Host also give angel the info, because Kate won't anymore (soon to be can't), in an extremely funny way (no he doesnt dish out info he read from W&H singing). Tonights Angel is bigger than Darla getting vamped, Angel firing his crew, etc. Best episode of the season. This one kicks ass.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Buffy Vs. Angel: A Match Made in Hell!

    by brian O' blivion

    I love Buffy... I really do! But you guys are right about the supporting players. They are good for a laugh, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, they are no match for Gunn, Cordy and Wesley. I think that the main problem is overkill. There are too many people in the Scooby gang who aren't worth a damn to Buffy. I'm not saying a girl can't have friends, I'm saying a girl can't take friends who can't fight out to hunt for vamps and stuff. Angel at least surrounds himself with people that are somewhat useful! What the hell is Xander doing every week other than putting up with Anya?!? I like the guy, he's always been funny... but he does nothing! Willow is an exception, at least she's trying to put her powers to use. I still enjoy this show and will continue to watch until the very end. I just think these characters really need to grow up.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 2:52 p.m. CST

    No guts, No Glory.

    by Psyclops

    I tend to agree with some of you out there regarding Glory as the villain this season. The girl is just not threatening. I don't find her the least bit scary or intimidating and that's a major problem for the show. Buffy has more to lose this season than ever before, her responsibilities are greater. She has a sister now who is the 'key' to some greater power, shouldn't she be facing an evil that is at least threatening? I don't mean someone who can throw her across a room while wearing red pumps. I mean Someone that is intelligent and fierce. I know that part of the gimmick is the fact that Glory is beautiful and unassuming, but for crying out loud... let her snap Anya's neck or something and show Buffy that this enemy means business. Glory is all talk and no play. I want to see someone menacing Sunnydale just like Mr. Trick and The Mayor did in season three. We have the good, we know the good... let's see the evil. It would have been better to have Dracula be the villain this season. He has history and potential that is limitless. There would have been romance and mystery... just like in the movies. I only hope Glory can redeem herself by season's end.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 3:01 p.m. CST

    alternate realities

    by holidill

    I don't get to see Buffy or ANgel until the weekend due to NCAA basketball! Of course I have only taped teh episodes and not watched them yet. I have no time during the week to do this. SO what I do is watch the whole season during the summer so I don't get bored. ANyway, all the information I know about this season is from Herc's posts. WHat if this whole season of Buffy is an alternate reality. At the end of the season when we have the big battle, everyone is gonna die or get hurt except for Dawn and Buffy, and Dawn is going to ascend to where she is supposed to go and her powerful mind will alter everything, and Joyce will be alive, RIley will be back, and all will be well with Buffydom. Just a thought.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 3:21 p.m. CST

    When is Spike gonna die?

    by Skeletron

    Well I mean c'mon people all of the evidence points to SPIKE kickin it. I mean its obvious hes gonna do something heroic and save Buffy and her gang and bite (pardon the pun) the big one. And all I want is for GILES to get his chainsaw back, that was by far the best GILES moment ever, when he carried that bad boy into the frat house.

  • Okay - ya, Glory. Glory is the weak link in an otherwise good season. Some might add Ben also. But I think with it recently looking like he actually was warning Dawn about Glory - I find his character vewy intewesting..........Now back to Glorificus. Well has anyone ever thought that maybe she isn't THE god? Is anyone familiar with Greek Mythology? You've got your Gods to fear - and you've got your whittle Gods - the ones who just wreak havok or play cruel jokes they find amusing on us mortals. Aphrodite in some stories was nothing more than a whiney beauty queen - in some other ones she could pack a whallop. I think Glory is a somewhat "whittle" God. She at one time said something about not having much "time". "Time" for what? For a bigger menace to come play havok? Til the Key became more powerful and therefore she couldn't use it anymore? See, these are questions that have been posed. And if this show wasn't really that great, like some of you have said, then I wouldn't really care. But I do. I'm glad that Buffy is turning Spike the BEEG cold shoulder. I surprised myself by caring for Spike, also. Wierd? But thats the beauty of this show. We all care. We know these characters by their names. Ya, I like this show. I believe its saving non-cable television from boring hell. And thank god. I want Riley to come back - I'm curious enough to want to know what would happen. I like Anya. I in no way believe she is a "poor man's" Cordie. Cordie was a totally different character. I believe if Cordie and Anya were to meet - they'd hate each other. But thats another beauty of this show - it makes you think of ALL the what ifs - the possiblities. I just love a show that makes me think. Kinda like the first two seasons of the X-Files. Made me think - drove me mad at times. But I miss those days.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:04 p.m. CST

    Can Sarah act? Definitively, yes.

    by Lizzybeth

    One word: "Mommy?" I don't think I'll ever be able to watch that scene again. Lord knows how I'll make it through next week. Curse you Joss Whedon! (I mean that in the best possible way) THIS was an episode up there with Fool For Love.. now excuse me, I have to go call my mom.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:04 p.m. CST

    Well... (Thoughts in between Buffy and Angel)

    by Vincent D.

    That's it. Spike isn't getting Buffy. It's simply not going to happen. Getting that guy to build a Buffy-bot pretty much assures it as far as characterization goes. After the Buffy-bot gets assembled, who knows what havock it's going to reakk, however... Now, as far as joyce's death being a hoax, and how someone here said it would make "anything possible", what about Darla getting ressurected? the way I see it, as long as there's some kind of foreshadowing, it's all right with me. And look at this potential forshadowing, a "mystery boyfriend?" Hello! Well, the "previously, on Angel" is running now, back to my TV...

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:07 p.m. CST

    Mmmm... April

    by carouselambra

    First, just because it was mentioned in the TV GUIDE does NOT mean you can spoil a show in your AICN headline for us, Herc. Especially for a show like Buffy, for heck's sake. Anyway, tonight's wasn't my fave episode of the year, but it was nice. Not QUITE as jam-packed as usual. Anyone else notice that the last thing April said was "It's always darkest before the..." 'Dawn' is how you usually finish that phrase. I'm Anxiously looking forward to Spike's robot creation! Spike just gets cooler and cooler... his new added dimension of being the dude longing for a girl he has no shot with, well I can relate to that! Also it looks like next week's going to be a doozy! Nobody mention what it says in "TV GUIDE", thanks!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:22 p.m. CST

    Spike and Buffy

    by iloveryan

    I guess I can relate to Spike in this episode (haven't seen it yet, it's on video tape); while his transformation into sad-sack stalker-boy is a loss of dignity for him, I can relate to his having the rest of the cast turn against him for feeling that way about somebody. When you're gay and you don't live in a major coastal city and you fall in love with a guy who, shall we say, can't reciprocate and the word gets out, people can and will turn against you. Just for feeling that way.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:27 p.m. CST

    A Buffy-bot?!?!

    by Psyclops

    GOD DAMN! Why did I have to read the last few talkbacks?! I forgot that the show has already ended on the east coast (I'm in Los Angeles and we don't get it for another three hours)! I need to see this. Please, somebody invent a time machine that can take me three hours into the future...

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 6:32 p.m. CST

    so what's the big deal?

    by maxwell's hammer

    okay, i read herc's orgasmic reviews of buffy every week but never actually watch the show. schedule conflicts. anyway, i had a chance to watch the show tonight and i really must say i don't see what all the fuss is about. I mean, herc puts this show up on the same plateau as the West Wing, but i can't see any comparison. while buffy is mildly entertaining, and probably better than most television, but isn't the writing just a bit smug? and isn't all the cute subtext and cute attempts at humor delivered with all the subtley of a brick in the groin? Really people. This show is more of a solid B than the A+ upon which many of you insist.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 7:16 p.m. CST

    Holy Crap! Shit! Wow! Jesus!

    by Jarek

    Is it me, or was tonight's ANGEL one of the most suspenseful hours of television since the early X-Files cliffhangers? Seriously, by the end of the episode I was left wondering: (!!!SPOILER!!!) Are Wesley and Kate dead? Did Angel really turn evil again? What the hell is up with Angel anyway? What does that fucked up demon want with Cordelia and the gang? Besides that we get some really cool revelations about "home base" and the senior partners (I still think that one of the senior partners is the big horned demon that Drusilla was dating in the Spikecentric episodes). Altogether, an amazing ep!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 7:24 p.m. CST

    maxwell's hammer

    by Psyclops

    Buffy is a show that you really have to get used to. I say this only to new viewers because so much has happened in the last four years, a person may not immediately 'adjust' to the characters if they were to just tune in today. I know that I was hooked from the moment I saw the premiere pilot episode which aired in 1997, so have many ...and that is why we're long time fans. Hercules The Strong is obviously a fan as well, so I can understand if he gets excited by any new developments with his... our beloved characters. Plus, the show is well written, well acted (although Willow does get annoying, but ain't she cute as a button?), not to mention the fact that it has been well recieved critically. Maybe not as highly recognized as ER or The West Wing, which are incredible hours of television. Just different television. There is a bond that the fans of the show have with the characters and if anything is happening to Buffy, Xander, Willow or Giles... we have a right to get excited. Keep watching if you can, you may end feeling the same way.

  • Now G Lindsey has already outlasted one of the 'senior partners' who despite power are dramatic back seaters to Lindsey and Darla. Even though I tried to cover all contingincies this isn't a clean win for me so if you still say some of the 'senior partners' will outlast Lindsey then time will tell. Too bad Angel left that glove in the elevator. Now Ninja I don't know if we bet on this but way back we talked about if we'd see 'evil Angel' or 'Liam slimey Angel' I think after tonight we are seeing mentally unbalanced crazy ass Angel although Joss IS teasing what I though t would happen with the sex stuff. Which is why I DON'T think we'll see it. A while ago G or some other observant Buffyite said that he/she thought Angel having sex is not equal to true happiness and I think that is dead on. Angels soul was freezing him and he wanted it out. Only without love in his heart (like when he had Buffy) his escapades with Darla will not relieve him of his soul and only drive him FURTHER over the edge...mad with grief and agony. Spike seems balanced next to this guy..HELL ANGELLUS SEEMS BALANCED NEXT TO THIS GUY. Angel is one freak. Which makes me wonder is he shows up on Buffy next week (as someone reported) for a booty call mistakingly thinking that sex with her will get rid of his soul? He is in for one ass whiping if he pulls this attitude with B's Mom dead. By the way Joss is a bastard to do that characterization with Joyce and kill her in the same episode. If I had tear ducts I'd cry. Anyway I don't know for sure if Angel is guesting it was just a rumor I heard but he wasn't in the promo so now that I think about it I kinda doubt it. Either way DARK DAYS ahead folks...dark days indeed.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 7:51 p.m. CST

    Why does Buffy suck this year?

    by Skeletron

    Ok ok, i get it. But why has this season, been such a waste of my time? Hey i love BUFFY and i always set aside Tuesday time to catch the next episode, but this season is totally out of whack. Its taking to long to get a story rolling, this Glory crap is wht I said CRAP. I mean they just go off on a tangent and talk about other stuff and not addressing this Glorificus whore and finding ways to beat her. I want action dammit, not a broken jigsaw puzzle with the edges missing. I mean I've seen the best acting on Buffy two weeks ago with DAWN finding out what she was, all weeping and shit, questioning her humanity, that was ACTING, that was WRITING. and ANTHONY STEWART HEAD damn he is good at what he does, this week, he fucking showed SPIKE whose boss. Why doesnt he get more play? both DAWN and GILES are the only two good actors on a dying show. I hope that BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER is put out it's misery this year and is laid to rest....long live its spin off.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:07 p.m. CST

    Kudos to Psyclops

    by maxwell's hammer

    Imagine that. In these hallowed halls of talkback, a poster was actually able to defend his show against a potential naysayer (see my above comments) without bashing me over the head with comments about how much I suck and calling me lots of dirty names. i salute you, sir.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:41 p.m. CST

    Joss and Darkness

    by Chris_Fougere

    Just when you think Angel can't get much darker, Joss pulls the rug out from under us. I love it! I'm a HUGE Buffy fan but this season Angel has been consistantly giving us the goods. Also, it was a nice to have such a dramatic closing shots (on both shows) without an annoying "to be continued" message.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:43 p.m. CST

    Halfway through on the west coast, and I'm wondering something.

    by vroom socko

    Does this episode remind anyone else of a bad segment of Sluggy Freelance. Wait, there's no such thing as a bad segment of Sluggy Freelance.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 8:53 p.m. CST

    My own two cents

    by iloveryan

    Actually G, I was SPECIFICALLY talking about a "can't reciprocate" type of situation made worse by the whole thing becoming fodder for the rumor mill of narrow-minded people, which very likely would have been clear to you had you read my post carefully. <Meow!> ANY-hoo, tonight's episode of Buffy had to be one of the most disappointing of the entire season, topped off by Spike deciding to build a robo-girlfriend replica of Buffy. LAME, STUPID, BORING, AND LAME AGAIN!!!! The one thing that would have made the whole thing worth taping, namely seeing Ben with his shirt off, turned out to be Ben in Glory's dress. Puh-leeze, Mary! Angel was indeed a lot better, but the whole thing about this plane of existence being a sort of Hell was a bit heavy-handed. Perhaps Angel will not lose his soul not because one has to be in love for the Deed to cause Soul Removal, but because he had sex with a vampire; but that needing to be in love thing could be the case, too.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 9:28 p.m. CST


    by NosticAG

    Actually I have to disagree G. I think alot of the symbolism you find in the show is major biblical. Almost every philosopher you read and the Good Book itself talks about humanitys paradox between "having value" and being evil. I think everyone has evil inside. The lawyers speach in the elevator on the way to the "Home Office" talked about how whereever evil is they have been. How is that different from Satan and the underworld? This show rocks. I've been a fan since I watched the first episiode!!!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 9:38 p.m. CST

    Random Predictions and comments

    by NosticAG

    -Don't think Joyce is dead because of a comment in the "next week" about "not being able to move the body" Why not if she was dead? Think maybe Gloria was pissed that Buffy turned down date with Ben. -Agree with Lizzybeth that "mommy" was awesome. - Think Angel (The person) was close to hitting rock bottom tonight. If you are in a prison and think there is a way out you fight to escape. When you realize that there is no way out you can only choose 1)give up and die or 2) go insane. Is there another way out. - This show is hitting some major stuff on being alive and being human. Is there a way out? Is this world hell? Is there redemption to be found in a world where so much evil exists. (No I'm not confusing TV with reality just noticing some parrallels.) - Xander might be showing some signs of growing up. Did anyone else notice some different interaction with Buffy tonight than normal? (hug, repairing of window) - Cordy is totally heading into some major trouble at the clients' house. - Didn't April look like she could be Cordelia's little sister.?Think there was any relation? I didn't see the credits.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 10:45 p.m. CST

    I can't believe no one else thought of this...

    by Geekgrrl

    It seems to me that this week's Buffy was setting us up for a possible Buffy-Xander affair. Sure, we all see the Buffy-Ben thing coming, but she turned him down. She was not afraid of Xander, who showered her with more compliments than usual. Maybe Anya will reveal a bit more of her demon nature if this happens... She was a vengence demon, after all.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 10:49 p.m. CST

    buffy and xander

    by zuko

    I was starting to wonder if anyone else noticed the way these two were interacting. From the first scene it looked like buffy was making eyes at our boy. And her looks continued throughout the ep. I cannot wait for next week. how can they kill off Joyce?

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 10:51 p.m. CST

    Buffy: 5 stars, Angel: 3 1/2 stars

    by Twig

    Man, that was just a devastating ending on Buffy. "" OMG that's sad. It's been quite some time since I couldn't get Buffy outta my head until well into Angel, but that might've been the episode of the year. Spike's still rockin. I actually think the Buffy bot idea could be cool. Yeah, it could end up campy, but frankly a Buffy VS Buffy final fight would be better than Buffy VS Glory IMO. The whole Ben/Glory thing is just treading water and has been for about 3 months now. She's been around so long with so few nuggests of info that I don't even care. But I think the show's doing just great right now w/o a compelling big bad. Next week's looks just great. As for Angel, there was Buffy hangover, but it wasn't as great as some other episodes. As for the cliffhanger parts, Angel is NOT Angelus again. He didn't seem evil in the next week preview. Kate isn't dead, but I've never liked her anyway, so I don't care if she is. And btw, the stuff with her tonight was almost identical to stuff taking place on Roswell recently with Valenti. Cordy's in deep doodoo dis time, but I bet Angel saves her next week and that's how he gets back in their good graces. Oh, and F Drusilla.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 10:58 p.m. CST

    Great shows tonight!

    by Psyclops

    I quite enjoyed Buffy this evening. I thought it was totally funny watching Spike get thrown through a window by someone who wasn't the Slayer. But on a more serious note, that last part really gave me a lump in the throat (and the dramatic previews of next week's episode didn't help either). That "mommy?" line was so heartbreaking. I think the impact of Joyce's death really hit me, especially after those warm little moments between her and her two daughters at the beginning. Plus, just when I was complaining about how Xander has no real place in Buffy's world, there he goes giving a great little pep talk to the Slayer... keeping her hope alive. That's it, folks. He's an anchor. I loved that little hug with 'puffy' Xander, wasn't that great? Anyway, I still think Glory should be a darker villain this season (it always helps if we are actually afraid of the bad guy). Maybe there is still hope left before the big 100th episode. I won't forgive myself for catching the tail end of what is reportedly a great episode of 'Angel'. I never gave a damn about that show until I listened to Herc and you talkback guys, now I have to keep taping Dark Angel just so I can watch the real 'Angel' every Tuesday. You people are bastards! Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm just excited. By the way, thank you for your kind words Maxwell (Mr. Hammer?). I think this talkback would be much better off without the useless name calling.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:03 p.m. CST

    um.... Psyclops.

    by brian O' blivion

    You call us bastards and then talk about this talkback being better off without the useless name calling? WTF?!?

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:07 p.m. CST

    Mr. O' blivion.

    by Psyclops

    I'll admit to my share of name calling on this site, but when I 'meant' bastards, it was more of a thank you than a social jab. I wanted to thank all of you for getting me hooked on a really good show. See.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:18 p.m. CST

    I just thought of something.

    by Psyclops

    I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, so bear with me if it sounds redundant. What if this new Buffy-robot isn't the evil twin everyone is expecting it to be? I know that eventually the two will fight and Spike will either be watching in horror or in glee. But what if she plays an important part in Glory's demise... as a decoy. I think the Buffy-bot is capable of handling herself against Glory, don't you? Maybe it's crazy talk, but I really think this could work. Hell, it would be cool to see Glory react to a robot! On a slightly different subject, what the hell happened to Gunn? I didn't catch him at the end of 'Angel'. He didn't die too, did he? Man, Joss Whedon is laying on the drama this season.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:22 p.m. CST

    No bad tummy yet!

    by superninja

    sundown, I bet that Joyce would die and that Linsdey would outlast them all, AND that Angel will become Liam. I know for a fact...SPOILERS....Angel has sex with Darla in the next EP.....END SPOILERS, but begin SPOILER SPECULATION...I'm guessing he goes "human" for a bit. A human Angel means Liam (bad accent and all). Btw...I have a shooting script for the next Buffy EP. I perused it briefly, mention of Angel, although my sources tell me he DOES show up on BTVS in the near future.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:22 p.m. CST

    The first thing I noticed about this Warren guy

    by vroom socko

    Did anyone else notice how this dimwit treated his flesh and blood "girlfriend" like she was also an autometon? As to the Buffy-Bot, this is still in line with Spike's character. Am I the only one to realise the fact that Spike is not in love and has never been in love? Before the chip, Spike was obsessed with killing the Slayer, now he's obsessed with possesing her. After saying that, however, why do I have the image of Spike standing over Joyce's grave, telling her what happened on Passions that week?

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:30 p.m. CST

    Predictions on Angel

    by superninja

    The ring allows Angel to bend reality. So he becomes human and gets his soul back, then crawls to Cordy & Co. all redemptive and whatnot, gets shot down and then realizes that everything is not what it's cracked up to be. He stops using the ring's power, realizing that the whole point was that it was a TRAP to make him become evil and/or weak, and saves Wesley (maybe Kate, not sure), showing his humanity and warming up his team to bringing him back into the fold.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:32 p.m. CST


    by superninja

    I think proof of his return shows that he is continuing to fulfill the "senior partner's" desire to turn Angel evil. He's still working, so it won't surprise me if the whole thing isn't a setup. I'm telling you...Holland's return is a clue to the nature of the false nature of this storyline. HOTPOCKET CHALLENGES AWAIT!

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:36 p.m. CST

    Spike and Buffy will get together if the show starts to tank.

    by superninja

    I have forseen it. It's all about ratings at the end of the day, and they have to find a way to DRAG this beotch out as long as they can, so they will give Spike obstacles, they will make him fall down until it becomes so Mulder & Scully that they have to give in. It's the nature of t.v. writing.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:40 p.m. CST

    I would like to take this moment to tell everyone...

    by superninja

    They just showed a man coming on national television.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:42 p.m. CST

    Now if they could only bring John Ritter back.

    by Village Idiot

    Nice of them to reference his character in the episode tonight. And speaking of tonight's episode, I enjoyed things. Buffy was clever and insightful. I remember the Batman Beyond episode that tonight's Buffy resembled, but BB didn't explore the symbolism nearly as deeply. Talking on the swingset to the girl that represented not only all of Buffy's relationship anxieties, but all of our anxieties as well (but especially that of women), was quite poignant. ***** Meanwhile, Angel. It's beginning to give that awful feeling that certain movies give me where everything is looking very bleak and chaotic and there's no way the heroes are going to be able to prevail (examples: Empire Strikes Back, Ghostbusters (yes, Ghostbusters)). The dialog tonight was very clever, consistently clever, almost too consistently clever. And the "Home Office" payoff was solid gold! Will Angel realize that on every face that he saw evil and misery could also be found goodness and hope? ***** And finally, since everything has a way of coming back to comics, let me just say that I prefer Charisma Carpenter with longer hair. Fluff it up a little and I beleive would could have. . .Wonder Woman? (Ok, at least Lois Lane.)

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:48 p.m. CST

    The "Idiot" in Village Idiot stems from my idiotic inability to

    by Village Idiot

    That bit in my Buffy comments should have read "and was quite poignant." Dang it.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:53 p.m. CST

    Apologies and revisions...

    by superninja

    Well, only revisions. Angel has sex with Darla at the end of this EP, but SPOILERS ABOUND.....supposedly he finds it meaningless and goes back to the gang to kiss and make up. I didn't reveal that I knew that earlier, so maybe I'm playing with a loaded hand, BUT...I still think it falls in with my theory that the ring alters reality for the wearer (especially one who doesn't know how to use it) and that he will straighten things out and find another W&H scheme unfolding. Btw, Lindsey has a major thing for Darla. Is it real, or is he using her? This is what makes Lindsey infinitely interesting to me. He plays by no rules, so we'll just wait and watch. As for Spike, I disagree with the poster above who says he never knew what love was. Fool For Love set this up very clearly. He may not "know" love, but he yearns for's in his origin as a vampire. The Buffy-bot is just another way for him to get his frustrations out until he can get to the real thing, which, as I mentioned before, will be drug out until the end of time. But I think it's the intention of the writers to show that Spike will learn, albeit like a junior-high kid, that love is something you have to work for, and not a mystical happenstance.

  • Feb. 20, 2001, 11:59 p.m. CST

    I'm feeling self-important and wordy tonight so...

    by superninja

    I will continue posting until my body gives out, or someone tells me to shut up. VI, I agree that Charisma looks better with long hair, but a girl has to work, you know?! As for her as Wonder Woman or Lois Lane, I'm afraid her body of work is lacking so I think we can't really evaluate her ability to play any character other than Cordelia. I like Mrs. Carpenter a lot, so I'd like to think she could branch out, but...I dunno...Lois is smart, and Wonder Woman is...epic. I tend to think of Charisma as the "girl Friday" from the old-school movies. Talk amongst yourselves.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:03 a.m. CST

    Superninja, I stand by my statement.

    by vroom socko

    I have seen Fool for Love, and what I saw there was also obsession, not love. William was obsessed with a woman outside his social status, a woman he could never have. If he really loved her, then why was she on of his first victims? I'm not sure Spike even loved Dru. That relationship only lasted because a) Dru brought Spike across, and b) Dru is insane. That was hardly the healthiest relationship. I mean, c'mon, the only thing they had in common was killing! Don't even get me started on Harmony.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:08 a.m. CST


    by superninja

    The point is, the writers are showing that William has a yearning for innate desire to love and be loved. Whether he has experienced it or not isn't really the point.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:15 a.m. CST


    by vroom socko

    I honestly don't think Spike yearns to love; he yearns to possesse, to own the Slayer. Hence the Buffy-Bot.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:37 a.m. CST

    But the whole point is...

    by superninja

    They're showing he has the capacity to love. We've never seen Spike have actual love, but the fact is, that gets boring and that's why Angel has his own show (and also because Boreanez is hot). Spike is their attempt at slow development, which will drag out the ratings.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:46 a.m. CST

    Alright, Superninja.

    by vroom socko

    I hereby concede. I don't see Spike actually being in love with Buffy, but I'll admit he may have the capacity for love. See, stuff like this is why I created the Screaming Retinas.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:48 a.m. CST

    I don't know guys, Spike seemed a bit of a momma's boy in 'Fool

    by Psyclops

    By that, I mean he never truly understood love (the intimate kind) because as far as we could tell, his only companionship was with his mother. William was immediately turned by Dru, so his soul then became evil and that pretty much ended whatever 'normal' relationships he could ever have. Now if he truly learns the value of love, of which I still have my doubts, we should see a different version of Spike... with far less bite. It's a good concept, but it would ultimately ruin the character.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4:09 a.m. CST

    too many scoobies spoil the stew

    by wdignan

    Don't get me wrong... I love BTVS, and still enjoy it more than most network TV, but I also have to agree that the overabundance of "important" supporting characters is hurting the show. I love when a show can successfully juggle large numbers of characters ("OZ" on HBO for instance), but few shows can. I love Xander and Willow, but they're on so rarely anymore that they just blend into the Scoobie-mass, which is over cumbersome, and lately largely irrelevant. Giles and Spike are both characters that are distinct enough that they can shine with only a few moments spotlight time (great example: Giles threatening Spike tonight... it made me remeber why I love the character and wanted more of him), but due to the writing or something, Xander and Willow mostly stay close to my heart due to nostalgia. I want beefier Willow and Xander roles, and less other characters cluttering things up. I don't, however, think that the best solution is a a character killing spree (although killing main characters can be gripping when well done). Why not just use characters like Tara and Anya more sparingly and more effectively? Don't just throw every character into every scene. We didn't always see Oz but he was still intergal to the show (plus he had a very different kind of energy from the rest of the cast which help set him apart). In fact, I remember reading that Seth Green actually told the writers that it was okay to not put him in a scene if he didn't have anything to do. This is one of the reasons that "Angel" has become a tighter show. The main cast in lean enough that each character gets enough attention to stay distinct and interesting, but there are also a number of peripherial characters that appear when needed (The Host, the cop lady, Wesley's girlfriend, etc). Imagine if the Host and the cop were always hanging out in the office for every meeting in every episode. Ugh! In fact, "Angel" has been so great lately, because the characters have seperated even more than usual, giving different groups different goals. I'm sure it's only temporary, but I love the factioning off of the characters lately... it helps break up the easy trap of a show being too formulaic. Okay, I've rambled enough.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 6:37 a.m. CST

    Well Ninja the source of the tummy ache was your last point

    by sundown

    I think this and next weeks episode prove Liam is DEAD. So is Angellus and Angel to different degrees. Angel or whatever he is now is more messed up than any of them. He nearly raped Darla (and would have if she wasn't a freaky vamp who wanted him anyways)after beating her senceless he nailed her because he wanted out of his soul and the emptiness it caused. SO I think you will lose on the Liam bet. Liam isn't coming back. At this point we'll be lucky if ANGEL comes back. As far as my prediction about Angellus...well this version of Angel is worse than Angellus. He went from Punisher to Foolkiller. (geekish obscure comic reference) Anyway he is waaay off the deep end and I think this clears up the soul questions of the last few weeks. Even when Spike was a lunatic he NEVER acted this irrationally! He was always coherent and always 'himself' where as Angel with soul is a INSANE much worse than Angellus much worse than Liam...because Angel has DEEP DEEP mental problems that stem FROM his soul. He can't cope anymore and much like Darla he wants his soul removed from the pain, as she did when she was a human after being a vamp. Remember she too wanted to be turned back but BECAUSE SHE, LIKE SPIKE, IS NOT INSANE, coped and eventually made her peace. She was turned after that, so in a sence she WAS SAVED (ANGEL needs to recognize this fact) but Angel after years of controlling his pain has finally gone over the deep end and if you look at Angellus there is no reason to ask why. He is the baddest of the bunch. And with a soul he is screwed if he doesn't get a handle on things. If there is a clock for redemption it is rolling the wrong way now.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 6:49 a.m. CST

    Spike's Buffybot

    by Wicked Willow

    It doesn't surpise me that Spike would go for a B2-after all,technology took much of his power away so he would feel that it owes him some compensation.Plus,he told Riley that he would rather have a phyiscal relationship with Buffy than none at all. I see this as a great opportunity for laughs(with Joyce's passing,we'll need some)-imagine what love endearments Spike's Buffybot wil be programmed to say(anything's better than "Blondie Bear"!). I felt so bad for Buffy,just when she decides to not identify herself thru another guy and be in touch with her inner being(good idea,very mature)she now,on top of everything else,has to deal with the death of her mom-rough deal. As for Angel,he hasn't lost his soul-I never bought that "sex makes Angel evil" bit-He lost his soul with Buffy because she was his true love and they were expressing that love in the ultimate way. Plenty of people have sex without love-it's not a necessary component(look at Faith and Xander). Instead of screwing Darla, he should have gone to help Kate-she's been annoying but she's give up alot to help him out. What was he so shocked about-evil is a natural part of the world-I would've said"So? Tell me something I don't know,Holland-that doesn't give your guys the right to exploit that weakness." Angel needs to snap out of this right quick and oh,Poor Lindsay,getting used by Darla again-I'ld like him to get some powers and really kick ass!

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 6:59 a.m. CST

    Glory, Buffy, robots, and brains...

    by dp4m

    ... the post above about using a Buffy-bot as a decoy to fight Glory and how would Glory react to a robot got me thinking... what would happen if Glory (who hates the Slayer) finally decided to kill the Slayer by sucking her brain as she does and tries it on the robot not realizing the robot is a robot? I'm thinking a major energy source incompatibility feedback loop ala Star Trek... big explosion ensues... thoughts?

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 7:07 a.m. CST

    The next character to die is

    by Geekgrrl

    Either Tara or Dawn. My bet is Tara. We haven't really had a lot of character development with her. She is just Willow's girlfriend. She is just that nice extra who hangs around and doesn't do a lot of useful things. The only interesting ep was when she thought she was part demon. Tara's death would give Willow plenty of mourning time. Maybe she'd try to whip up a spell to get her back... Look for a Tara centered ep soon, so that we can all feel bad when Glory makes her insane or someone else kills her. Dawn is going to have to die or change into the key sometime. I think she was added to keep the show young, so don't count on her leaving anytime soon.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 7:11 a.m. CST

    Miss Calendar

    by carouselambra

    Oh how I miss Jenny Calendar. She was a hottie, and Giles hasn't been the same since.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Was Maxwell's Hammer glad no one "came down upon his head"?

    by RenoNevada2000

    Seriously, a few thoughts on Buffy and Angel. . . Anyone notice how over the last couple of episodes, they've used a monosylabic Buffy line to go to commercial? ("She's a God.""Oh."/"Spike's in love with you""Huhn?"/"She's a robot." "Huhn.") Granted SMG is good at delivering these bits, combining humor and a dash of drama, but anymore and it's going to become cliche. I also have to agree that delivery on SMG's last line of the episode was heartbreaking and made me tear up and that's even knowing that it was going happen. If I hadn't read a spoiler on it, I probably would have just blubbed like a girl. I really loved the scene with Joyce and the girls at the begining. If the writers had given her more of this to do, Kristine Sutherland might not have felt compelled to leave the show. Also, Xander is not useless. He is Buffy's rock, the stable voice of advice and common sense she needs. Everybody needs at least one friend who won't bullshit them and isn't afraid to tell them the ugly truths you may not want to hear but who can also cheer us up and show us that it isn't as dark as we think it is. That's Xander's primary function, a nuturing, supportive one. An odd role for a man, but Buffy has often been about role reversal. And also a nice parallel to Xander's new occupation as a construction worker. Angel keeps getting more complex, much more so than Buffy. I like the philosophicl turn the episode took during Angel's trip to the "Home Office." I certainly don't think Angel experienced a "True Moment of Happiness" when he banged Dru. Let's face it, he was just trying to see if he could feel ANYTHING. (Tangent- I've often said that there's three brands of sex- Making love, having sex and fucking. Making love is both emotional and physical and you may only do it with two or three people in your life. Having Sex is having the physical intamacy with someone you like but don't/can't/won't give your heart to. Fucking is just picking someone up in a bar or club for a one night stand.) Both shows look like they are going to pack emotional whallops next week. Now if they could just kick the Glory storyline into high gear. . .

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 7:25 a.m. CST

    My Bad

    by RenoNevada2000

    I meant to say after Angel banged Darla, not Dru. Also, one thing I'm fuzzy on- Why was Darla trying to get back at the Senior Partner? Revenge for being brought back and used by them?

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 8:25 a.m. CST

    Oh man

    by Sylvia Simon

    So much to say. First, with Angel - what is that hokey existential bullshit with the "heaven & hell is in everyone"? Okay, we all know that good & evil is in everyone, but my god, that is soooo PHIL 101 it's just sad. And Angel is gonna believe that babble from a (dead) senior partner of W&H? Yoo hoo, they are trying to mess with you, Angel! But I think the person who posted that the ring warps the wearers viewpoint must be right on. We know that there is a "real" hell - we saw Buffy send Angel to it (all fire & pain)! Second, the soul/no soul debate - I think that Angel can be evil and have a soul. That's the whole concept of free will isn't it? And Soul = Free Will. So it will be very interesting to see where Angel's free will takes him. And would some vamp please turn Lindsey, for crying out loud? I too am waiting for him to kick butt.****On to Buffy. The Buffy-Bot sounds like a lame-ass idea at first, but I like the idea of those two teaming up. And if they don't? Hey, Buffy v. Buffy has gotta be better than Buffy v. Dracula. Now THAT was lame. NosticAG, I agree - April and Cordy do look like sisters; perhaps if Warren turns April back on (which is what I figured he'd do when his flesh & blood girlfriend dumped him) they can meet? But I don't think Cordy would stand for April's perkiness. Finally, as a brown-eyed brunette, I thank you, The Comedian, on behalf of all us Brn/Brn's out there, for your complement.

  • Please let this be the end of people saying Angel is better than Buffy.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 8:40 a.m. CST

    Just two more things...

    by Sylvia Simon

    and I'll shut up (for now). (1) How can we be sure that's Joyce's body lying on the couch? With all these gods/robot-builders/who-knows-what-else running around? And didn't we hear Glory say something like "my brother's planning something"? Or was that in regards to something else? (2) Poor Spike. The way he got so totally dissed by the Scoobies was just like the way he was treated back in "mortal times". Who knows what he'll be capable of doing after being treated like William the Bloody (Awful Poet)? Okay, I'm done. Sorry.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 8:51 a.m. CST


    by Smugbug

    okay - two good eps. But I have to agree with a previous post: so, the ring takes the Senior Partner in the elevator from this world to...this world? And Angel didn't get it? I can't believe Angel is such a whimpy brain that he allows W&H to toy with him like that? And I also believe he isn't Angelus - he doesn't love Darla. Not compared to how he loved Buffy. Buffy brought him true happiness. Darla brings him misery. Well, misery does love company. I don't think Kate bought it. And I belive that of all the people in the Angel-verse, Kate is the person who can help Angel. She has to forgive him for the death of her father, which I believe she still blames Angel. As for Buffy - oh god....that "mommy" line hit me. And I was just getting over a migraine last night - and these shows were still able to get through. So again I say..."whoa"

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 10:16 a.m. CST

    ok lets not be too literal or hell too freudian the Principle fr

    by sundown

    Look the demon dudes are from another dimension or place the fact is that it has nothing to do with where they took Angel. That guy was the guy Angel had murdered. He was made to remember this buy Kate earlier when she slapped those files down and said they were locked in. He also learned she was up for review and may be fired for it. He was also reminded of the sins of the past int he form of the Hotel people he left to die. He also got that guy who said Angel had changed his life killed. All of these things are weighting on Angels soul even if he is beyond showing it at this point. So when he was faced with his demons and shown the true path to 'hell' they dumped him off back on Earth. 'Cause for Angel with all he's seen but MORE IMPORTANTLY ALL HE'S DONE this is hell to him. He has to suffer with his soul and memories forever. Which is what drove him to want to tear it out by nailing Darla. They didn't drive him out they just showed him what he really wanted-not a one way ticket to kill the Senior Partners but rather a way...any way off this world even if it is only his soul that leaves. Just my thoughts folks and yeah maybe a little psych 101 but in Angels state it wouldn't take Dali to mess with his perceptions. Now for the persons who said this ended the debate over which show was better...yeah it does a stupid robot episode with 2 good parts (We are not your way to Buffy, there is NO way to Buffy, Mom?) or a non stop kick ass Angel with EVERYONE being moved along. PS How pathetic is Cordys life? She wanted to be rich shallow party she is poor lonely avenger. Wow thats a switch. Gunn shouldn't have bailed on her and Wes though. Only 5 more days to find out what happens to them all. I hope Faith comes soon...they ALL need her...ironic huh?

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Make that two solid hours of good television..

    by Lizzybeth

    Angel was pretty good too, last night, but was it Depressionpolluza or what? First Buffy and her mom in the first hour, then Kate's killing herself, the old guy's dead, Wesley's dumped, and Angel's in super-duper-mopey mood. Angel the show is improving by leaps and bounds --nice sartrean "hell is other people" sequence, nicely done. But I still can't really rave about this show, and the reason for it is Angel himself. He just doesn't do anything for me. I was mildly intrigued when he started going bad, but now I'm getting bored again. I don't always object to moody and mopey characters, so I have to think that it's the actor's portrayal that bugs me.. he just doesn't convince me of exactly why I should CARE about Angel's torment. The only characters I really have much interest in are Gunn and Anne/Lily. "Buffy" and "Angel" have reversed problems, I think.. one show has great characters and okay stories, while the other show has kick-ass stories on occassion but weak characters. Just because Angel's humans can fight evil a little more actively than the Sunnydale non-slayer gang, doesn't make them good characters -- it just makes them plot advancers. Maybe the teams should trade writers for awhile or something.. Does Joss ever write episodes of Angel?

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 10:47 a.m. CST

    Well, I guess its a matter of opinion...

    by Z-Man

    That was probably the worst Buffy of the season, but still better than Angel. I think Angel has gotten better, found a good tone, I think its a great show in its own way, but it aint no Buffy. Part of what makes buffy so cool is the contrast of the sunny personalities of buffy and her pals with the darkness they encounter. With Angel its darkness all around. BUffy is character driven, Angel is story driven, which doesn't mean B has no story, it means they put the characters in a situation and let the story grow organicly (?) from the characters instead of coming up with ridiculously contrived plot ideas--the best example being this whole idea of the 2 evil lawyers sharing the vice president position (or whatever). What kinda Jeffersons plot device is that? And that cringe-worthy dialougue--Darla saying "Who was that?" Jesus, its like a Bruckheimer movie! Now this thing with the ring...yeah, I get the metaphor, but Angel still has this literal ring that can take him to the realm of the Senior Partners, but he's not using it? Its a good metaphor, but you still have this LITERAL ring!

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Cleared Up Info

    by movieman611

    Spike has become a jerk, but will do something heroic at the end of the season which will result in him saving Buffy and the Scooby gang at the end of the season. Joyce is dead. I am sorry for everyone out there who don't want to see her go but she will. Angel, because he does not love Darla will not experience that moment of perfect happiness and will not become evil. Wesley will not die but just the mourns the loss of Viriginia, but that will not last long. Remember, he is to play a big part in..... Gunn wil not leave the agency for the streets. Buteven I am not sure what will happen to Cordelia. I did not get that last part of the show. Kate will probably die.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 11:56 a.m. CST

    le petite morte

    by usagi

    excuse my french (or lack thereof). The significance of Angel having an orgasm on nation tv was missed by me initially- but now that I think about it I can't remember ever seeing it before (on public televsion anyway).

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 11:59 a.m. CST

    just random thoughts, poorly spelled

    by Diz

    Anya is gone soon. Maybe not killed, but not long for the Buffy-verse. Why? Xander is growing beyond her. Look at the moments between him and Buffy last night. There was definately some foreshadowing there. And it wasn't the first time Xander has been Buff's rock. Plus, despite the heavy-handed way they handled Buffy identifying with robot, there were quite a few comparisons made between the robot and Anya. The way she talks, the way she is Xander's sex machine, how blindly devoted she is to Xander. Nope, as Xander is growing, he is outgrowing Anya. I don't know if Xander and Buffy will ever get together (kinda hope not, because then we start heading into Melrose Place zone where everyone is/has sleeping/slept with everyone else), but after last night's ep, I could see it happening. Speaking of Anya, boy am I sick of her. Come on already! She has been human for what? 3 years now? I know being human may still be sort of ackward for her, but jeez! Certainly she has learned *something* about it! I really long for the days of just Xander, Willow and Buffy, with Cordy joining in every once in awhile. Tara is cute, but she does nothing to add to BUFFY. She's like a spouse who's invited to the party because it's the polite thing to do, not because anyone wants to talk to her. Anya is annoying. Can anyone *not* guess what her next line will be? Spike is awesome, the best character in the BUFFY-verse, but he is better off in the background, showing up to menace the cast every once in awhile, OR as The Big Bad. Dawn, she's a keeper. She adds some nice tension and conflict with Buffy. And I wish Giles could be used more. They have such a nice father/daughter thing going with him and Buff, but they have never really fully explored it. As for ANGEL, I find it not written nearly as well as BUFFY. "Sometimes I feel like I have bandages holding my insides in too." WTF? For every well written sceen, there is crap like that. That said, I do find it interesting, but the writing needs to improve IMHO. And one last comment: The "mommy" line goes down with "I'm 16 years old; I don't want to die" as the best acted lines ever on BUFFY.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 12:27 p.m. CST

    The Hell/Earth thing.

    by superninja

    It's all a bunch of crap -- an illusion. W&H are trying to screw with Angel to make him do something very drastic, which is exactly what they did. I think sundown already mentioned this, but they showed Angel HIS personal hell. It's what drove him to attempt to divest himself of his soul. Angel didn't use the ring's power at all, IMHO. Just watch. People will die next week and he'll use the ring to fix it. Probably have to choose between Wesley and Kate or something. Maybe even Cordy and Kate. I wish Cordy had smacked him silly when he fronted in the store. Nice that she didn't back down -- I hope they continue on this route with her character.

  • Why are people expecting them to suddenly grow up and change? Besides, take a look a first season, tell me Xander and Willow haven't grown. Look at how Xander handled his relationship with Cordy as opposed to how he handles his relationship with Anya. Look how Willow has changed from dressing from "the softer side of Sears" and being a mouse who could hardly talk to a fashion plate who is openly gay. So what if she is still kinda goofy, and Xander still whines sometimes. There are plenty of adults who do that. Yes, there is still room for them to grow, and I think this year is *much* better year for Xander, but to say they are not growing at all is nuts. 'sides, as far a Cordy's growth is concerned, remember, she had a lot further to go than anyone.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 1:57 p.m. CST

    fantastic night

    by simian

    Well, despite the inane opinions of some talkbackers who feel the need to relentlessly and pointlessly dissect shows that are clearly in a loose realm of fantasy, i think it was a great night of storytelling on both ends. It still never ceases to amaze me how the writers can take simple ideas and make them shine, and every now and then throw in a twist i didnt see coming. Keep up the good work.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 2:08 p.m. CST

    I aspire to wordy and self-important.

    by Village Idiot

    First of all, COMEDIAN, nice to make your aquaintance, but as you've already learned, you credited me incorrectly. But don't worry, you can pat me on the back for this penetrating deconstructionalist anaylsis (by way of me brazenly second-guessing the writer's plans): I think the "Spike Doesn't Know How to Love" idea is way off the mark. It's just not where the writers are trying to push this story. Spike may not be winning over Buffy or the Scoobs right now, but he's winning over the audience. Fool For Love (the episode, not the Sam Sheppard play) was a clear attempt to make him more sympathetic and his story more tragic. The suggestion that his current love for Buffy is somehow invalid (by virtue of his selfishness) would in turn invalidate the tragic motif that the writers are trying to employ. To sum: Spike to having a mere obsession with Buffy, and Spike's story having real tragic resonance are two story elements that are mutually exclusive. ***** Meanwhile, SYVIA SIMON, picking on my favorite aspect of the Angel episode, huh? Phil 101, huh? Why you. . . I think that the attempt to say something larger philosophically was pointed and well done: pointed, in that this is material that doesn't get explored on televison very often, at least at this level of ingenuity; and well done by virtue of that same ingenuity. Did you expect the elevator to open up at the exact same spot? Great themes, great episode. ***** And COMEDIAN again, you're goshdarned right, Jennifer Connelly was born to play Wonder Woman. That would be sublime, but I'm afraid we'll never see it.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 2:21 p.m. CST

    And mustn't forget SUPERNINJA.

    by Village Idiot

    HIYA! (Karate exclamation) SUPERNINJA: The earth as hell dealie was NOT an illusion. Equating hell with life on Earth is, well, a true and valid comparison. In the words of Sartre, "Hell is other people." What Angel must learn is not that the whole thing was a bunch of hokey-pokey nonsense, but that as much as the Earth is hell, it is also heaven. The world is what you make it. Kum-Bay-Ya, Superninja. Kum-Bay-Ya indeed.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Difference Between Satre's Hell and Marlowe's

    by Vincent D.

    Okay, I'd just like to point out that Marlowe and Satre were on very different levels when they spoke of hell on Earth. Marlowe was going for a very popular Protestant definition, saying that Heaven is the bliss of being in the presense of the Christian God, and that anywhere outside of that bliss is short of Heaven. Since the demons were simply cast out of heaven, they were simply no longer allowed in the Christian God's presence, and since the Christian God left Earth after the fall of Adam and Eve, demons could inhabit Earth. -- Now, Satre was an Atheist, and was trying to say that the entire concept of Heaven and Hell, of supreme good and supreme evil, are aspects of the human personality (since the concepts are inventions of the human mind). That's a huge difference, and I'll explain how it applies to Angel. -- See, if the writers were making an analogy in the Spirit of Satre (which is what I believe, since his analogy is more popular in modern cultures) then it would be true that "Hell was other people", that it was a part of their worst tendencies, but it would allow Angel the oppertunity to realize that heaven exists within other people too. Perhaps he'd see someone do something truely altruistic, or remember why he cares about the people he used to care for... -- Either way, the only option left is they were using a Marlowe-style hell analogy would be for the Christian God (or possibly the Powers that Be) to arrive and rectify the situation, because all that is outside of his/her/their presence is inherently corrupt and evil in it's very nature. -- Wow, I never thought I'd be talking about this on AICN...

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 3:09 p.m. CST

    The Angel/Darla scene was disturbing

    by superninja

    but it also clearly showed his anger and confusion, which has been building to a peak over these last few episodes. As far as the Earth Is Hell arguement, I'm not arguing the psych behind it, I'm arguing that they were never actually in the realm that the senior partners inhabit. There IS a Hell dimension, as many people have said, as Buffy and Angel have been there before. Holland was making a point that was specifically tailored to UPSETTING Angel.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 3:13 p.m. CST

    Fembots??? Give me a break.

    by ToxMusashi

    Buffy fights a Fembot. How lame. Buffy fighting Evil Robot Buffy is going to even more so.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 3:21 p.m. CST

    And to back my theory up...

    by superninja

    Why are W&H doing sacrifices if the senior partners are all around them? Why the ceremony with the pentagram in the office? Why the need for a ring and a gauntlet? The senior partners are from Hell, and Holland was, again, talking about Angel's personal version of Hell. In many cultures they believe punishment in the afterlife is tailor-made to your actions while on Earth.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 3:45 p.m. CST

    buffy-bot and all

    by zippy-zip

    I don't think spike is a creep and I like him getting a buffy-bot so he can treat her as badly as buffy and the gang treated him, and it will give SMG some nice acting opportunities. I can't understand why dawn was mean to spike since she's the one who let the cat out of the bag. Did you notice ben is the one to give the phone number when it is usually the girl. They can't have the glory story go very fast because that would mean dawn will have to change in some way and they want to keep dawn. I thought the body on the sofa looked fake-like a dummy. This was not dying peacefully in her sleep. She would have to fall like that and it looked unnatural. Xander looked better this week, maybe somebody else noticed he was getting puffy since they went on about puffy xander. On angel-when he was having all those dreams about hot passion, maybe that is when he lost his soul. Now when he really did the deed and it did not have that passion, he got his soul back and that is why he woke up like he did.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 3:58 p.m. CST

    Future slayer?

    by Ophelia 's twin

    I'm predicting that by season's end Dawn will become fully human. Once the whole "key" issue is resolved, she will become Buffy's true sister (both emotionally and genetically). Since Buffy is apparently losing one family member, it would make sense if she were to gain one as well. Which makes me wonder, how does one become a slayer? (I only started watching BVS late in season 3, and it's probably been covered at some point.) Obviously, there is some type of supernatural bestowal of powers involved. But, is this bestowal completely random? Can just anyone become a slayer? Or does the person chosen have to have natural (in other words, genetic-based) talents to begin with? If it's the latter case, Dawn could be next in line for slayerhood if she happens to share some of Buff's genes. Joss and Co. could keep Dawn around as a plausible replacement option in case some type of snit fit results in SMG's leaving the show. Other related questions: Is there a certain age at which slayer powers suddenly appear? How many slayers can there be at one time? (I know there have been at least two at once, but is there a limit?)

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4 p.m. CST

    senior partners

    by superninja

    I think the senior partners are the same as the founders. I've never heard founding partners used in relation to a law firm. The demon Angel killed was like a gatekeeper who would complete the ritual and make way for the senior partners to come through to the other side. I still say the senior partners do not dwell on Earth, but the conversation made it seem like they NEED the humans to spread their evil, which makes me wonder if this will come into play at some point.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4:16 p.m. CST least Angel got some last night ;-)

    by Smugbug

    Has anyone informed Cordelia?

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4:24 p.m. CST

    Great episode of Buffy.

    by Profane Wayne

    I loved how Giles used intimidation to tell Spike to move on. Since Spike is fluent in intimidation, it conveyed the point much better than a chorus of "go away Spike" ever could. I wonder if they are going to go anywhere with Willow's roving eye, first it was towards Dracula and now April. The Vampire Willow didn't strike me as overly monogamous. Maybe that's another thing they'll have in common. Xander has grown up allot emotionally this past season. Such as when he confronted Buffy about letting Riley go or when he told Anya that he loved her. But its good to see that he hasn't completely lost his adolescent mentality. As he was shoving his entire leg in his mouth with that "what guy wouldn't want a sexbot" idea, I was willing him to realize that he was talking to the wrong crowd before it was too late. He needs to either make some male friends or develop an inner monolog. Buffy's verbal jabs at Warren were some of the best this season. Did anyone else notice that amongst April's "please Warren" files were some fetish files and several positions files. Plus the whole growling thing. Warren was a sick little monkey. I found it interesting that they should introduce a love starved robot after stirring up all this debate about the nature of love and whether or not a soul is required to experience it. I wonder what happened to April. My guess is that Warren will use her for parts to build Spike's RoboBuffy. My guess is that Spike will stay interested with her for two weeks at most, then he'll go back to pinning for the real thing. I think it would be really funny if Spike had to turn to Buffy for help to deal with an overly amorous RoboBuffy. I think it would be even funnier if she won't help. I also picked up on a Buffy/Xander vibe, but I don't see it going anywhere.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4:32 p.m. CST


    by superninja

    I'm all in favor of Cordelia and Angel ending up together. I know that wasn't your point, but the writing's flipped back and forth between a brotherly relationship versus a flirtatious one. Some of her behavior over the last two episodes in regards to Darla seem like outright jealousy. But I like the idea of her standing her ground. Angel ditching them could be akin to Xander dumping her if the writers choose to go that way, and it could be a nice marker to show how much she's grown up since then. To not let his affections/inaffections dictate her life. Go Cordy! I'd love to see her get into training and start holding her own in a fight. They all need their weaknesses to seem three-dimensional, and I guess hers was being self-centered and materialistic.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4:35 p.m. CST

    Small detail - Glory, Ben, and... a third?

    by venkmanx

    Small detail, but did anyone notice that Ben/Glory's answering machine was the kind that allows messages to be left for THREE people? For the record, I'm betting Joyce isn't dead. I think it's a swerve. I think the "Don't move the body" line in the trailer is the giveaway, as is the charcoal drawing that is being done. There's going to be some kind of desperate race against time deal that the Scoobies will win - at a cost. They've been telling us all year that someone's going to die, AND that an event would shatter Buffy's world. Those don't necessarily have to be the same event. I think Joyce will be back after this episode, and it will be someone else that bites it (Tara?). Keep in mind that last summer, Joss Whedon said often that he wanted to play with the idea that one of the Scoobies is evil this season... Imagine if it was Xander, particularly with the way Buffy has been relying on him lately...

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 4:38 p.m. CST

    Joyce will stay dead.

    by superninja

    But maybe Buffy will meet her for a final goodbye in the season finale.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 5:02 p.m. CST

    Late into the Talkback, but...

    by Griever

    I's things to say. First of all, I wish somebody'd told me they had actually found ways to make Angel, Wesley and Cordy compelling characters. I just started watching the show the other week, and was absolutely blown away by how not annoying they were. Big change from their respective days on BtVS.***As for the quality of Buffy itself lately, I agree with a lot of what's been said... They DO need to get 'back to basics', and focus on the original Scoobs, who I've always liked the best. As for the Xander/Buffy interactions lately, well, they sure seem to fit into the 'big brother/little sister' model, now don't they? I think so, anyway, which certainly seems to bear out those lines from last season's finale. The core Scoobies are a /family/. Another problem: Giles just isn't getting hit in the head, lately. Check out those first three seasons. Poor guy's head was like a frickin' magnet. There's a connection.***Ophelia's Twin: Technically, there can only be ONE Slayer at a time, which is why she's the 'Chosen One'. When Buffy died (briefly) at the end of season one, later resucitated (fuck, did I spell that right?) by Xander, another Slayer was 'activated', and thus there were two Slayers at the same time. This second-Slayer, Kendra, was woefully underdeveloped, and mostly served to show how Buffy was NOT at all like a Slayer was supposed to be, since she wasn't identified before her power 'expressed', which, yes, jives with the movie origin. Dru killed off Kendra, which 'activated' Faith. Faith was ostensibly identified as a proto-Slayer, but if she's to be believed, her Watcher got killed, etc., etc. So, it seems likely that at any one time, there's a 'pool' of possible Slayers, and that one of the major duties of the Watchers is to identify and train them. Also, Slayers seem to express their abilities in their early-to-mid teens (Buffy was, what, in grade nine?) and so whichever proto-Slayers go 'unchosen' when the current Slayer dies probably have no chance of getting chosen, unless the next Slayer bites it very quickly. I'd guess that these unchosen get drafted into the Watchers, unless they really ARE heartless limey bastards, in which case they might just, uh, 'dispose' of them. However, I like my first idea better. Yeah. Enough semicoherent rambling from me.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 5:11 p.m. CST

    Absence makes the Sartre grow fonder.

    by Village Idiot

    Whoa, VINCENT D., thanks for the back up. ***** Whoa, SLEAZY G., thanks for the input. I've never read Faust, or any Marlowe for that matter either (unless you think he was secretly Shakespeare). ***** Whoa, SUPERNINJA, I interpreted Angel's "ravishing" (quaint old-fashioned word for rape; e.g., Rhett Butler in Gone With The Wind) of Darla as clearly a mad effort to escape from all the pain and evil he felt surrounded and overwhelmed by. The weasel. Riley wouldn't have done it. And hey, while he was in his flurry of self-pity and wordy self-importance (oh, no wait, that last part was me), why didn't Angel remember Buffy? Where's the loyalty SUPERNINJA? Where's the love? ***** Whoa, SUPERNINJA again, ANGEL AND CORDELIA?!? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR &%#@#! SUPERNINJA MIND!?!

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 5:34 p.m. CST

    aLMost CErtainly

    by superninja

    Cordelia is like "his girl Friday". He'll come around in the end, and sO wILl YoU!

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 5:40 p.m. CST

    Btw, can't STAND Buffy & Angel together.

    by superninja

    We're talking instant nausea. At least Angel on his own has a little backbone. An Angel/Cordelia thing won't happen overnight, if at all. It will be like the Buffy/Spike thing, to be dragged out in a later season when they're running out of ideas. But I don't care if he ever sees Buffy again.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Great episode of Angel.

    by Profane Wayne

    And Angel's existence goes from bad to worse. A marvelously dark and depressing episode. Darla's going to be upset when Angel doesn't become Angelus. She will take it as an insult. If he could find perfect happiness with Buffy, then he better be able to find it with her. Lindsay's going to be upset when he finds out about Darla and Angel, but he won't do anything about it. There is still a chance for Lindsay, so long as Darla believes he's helping her as part of a power play at Wolfram & Hart, but as soon as Darla realizes that she owns him, she'll lose all respect for him. When Angel went to get his book back from Wesley and Cordy and she stood up to him, I was on the edge of my seat. I think Angel really would have taken it by force if Cordy hadn't backed down. About the death of a senior partner. My guess is that the demon that Angel killed with the holy Gauntlet of gloveness, was a ringer. They set Angel up. They knew he was coming for them. No way a senior partner lets itself get killed just to turn Angel. Heres my take on the hell on earth thing. They called the home office the source. That could mean that mortal life on earth is the source of all the evil in the Buffyverse. All that supernatural nastiness may be powered by the bad deeds of mortals. What if every time a person commits an evil act, a supernatural substance collects in that person's soul. When that person dies, the substance goes with his soul into his afterlife. If he goes to a demon dimension, demons devour his soul and the substance. The demons get stronger and then go to earth and cause mortals to commit evil acts and the cycle continues. The day to day torment that demons cause is like eating apples as they ripen and fall from the tree. An apocalypse is when the entire orchard get harvested. Well not every apple. A few are needed to seed the next grove.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 7:14 p.m. CST


    by iloveryan

    If a soul is supposed to be an immortal life-essence, I have a hard time imagining how it could be eaten. And even if nobody agrees with me which they probably don't, I think the "infatuation" phase can be a form of love; it's just a less evolved form because carnal lust is a bigger part of it. Because of our country's Calvinist cultural roots (upon which I would very much like to pour some sulfuric acid), the "goo-goos" get denigrated for the fact that lust is more a part of it.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 8:08 p.m. CST

    Let's Get Metaphysical

    by Mr. Smegma

    it occurs to me that Angel is moving into Prisoner territory re the nature of existence, reality, and humanity. Substitute post Cold War moral equivalency and disaffection for Cold War paranoia and our leads aren

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 8:28 p.m. CST

    I dont get it... Angel doesnt even COMPARE to Buffy.

    by kobayashi

    I read all of the Buffy bashing and Angel praising posts last night (tuesday)... finally I've seen the new episode of Angel (its not on 'till weds @ 10:00 here). I dont understand. Buffy was ten times better than Angel was... these characters in Angel are just not as interesting as in Buffy. Lindsay and the whole Wolfram 'n Hart thing... its boring. How can you guys criticize the Glory storyline yet you like this? Angel seems much less uniqe to me. Its really close to being just another Sci-Fi knock-off show... almost UPN'ish... I'd give tonights episode 3 stars at best. Last nights Buffy on the other hand was 4.5 easily.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 9:07 p.m. CST

    Grammys: The theme is BLACK

    by superninja

    I know AICN isn't covering this, but I just have to say, everyone looks like they are REALLY TIRED OF PERFORMING. So far Destiny's Child and that hot POA Bono and U2 are the only people with any soul. Looks like they were smart and got their own camera guy rather than the shit running the completely un-dynamic John Stewart sequences. It's so amazing how editing affects everything. What a shame.

  • Feb. 21, 2001, 11:16 p.m. CST

    Let Me Hear Your Non-Corporeal Body Talk

    by Village Idiot

    Interesting stuff, MR. SMEGMA, but I don't think Angel will dive into the surrealism pool in the same way that The Prisoner did. The terms of reality were never quite clear on the island (symbolic source of Cold War paranoia?), while the Angel universe feels more bound by certain rules (and conventions of the genre). But please, eloborate on the "free man" vs "man" theory. You can't just throw out a psuedo-intellectual nugget like that and not back it up. ***** SLEAZY G.: Marlowe, Kenneth Robeson. Gee, you've read all the classics. Well, the way my books are backing up right now, I won't be able to get to anything I actually *choose* to read until the year 2000. . .Wait, that's not some kind of impossibly far away date anymore, is it? Darn, we passed it already. Ok, I won't be able to read anything I *choose* to read until 2004 (I'm pretty sure we haven't gotten there yet). Actually, I do get time to read Superman comics; but aside from that, it's Weber, Durkheim, and Marx all the way. Woo-hoo!

  • Feb. 22, 2001, 6:20 a.m. CST

    Answering machine

    by RenoNevada2000

    Good observation venkmanx. I picked up on it too, as I have that same model. Look back at Buffy, she has it too. I think somebody knows someone at Sony! By the way, the sound quality on that model is not that good. It has a rather crappy digital recording chip that makes messages sound like a drowning cylon.

  • Feb. 22, 2001, 10:47 a.m. CST


    by Smugbug

    actually I was referring to Cordi's comment early in the ep regarding Angel's need to get laid. I've never really considered a Cordi and Angel set up - way too Buffyesque. I believe it would be best to keep them all as brothers/sisters type of relationship. Better interplay anyways. Hell, does EVERYONE on TV that works together HAVE to sleep together? really. I too believe (and sadly) that Joyce is dead and will stay dead.

  • Feb. 22, 2001, 1:22 p.m. CST

    The Dark Tower...

    by the_darkness

    I have the worst theories ever... Angel is Roland... Cordelia is Susannah/Odetta/Detta, Gun is i don't know like, maybe Eddie Dean, maybe... Buffy is Susan?... Doyle is cuthbert... darla is, maybe the man in black? that guy , Manners... he could be flagg but i doubt it... i'm really finding a hard time drawing correlaries to the dark tower and angel but maybe the wolfram and hart building is the dark tower and the senior partner... the REAL senior partner, is up on the top level... the court of the crimson king... IT... THE BEAST... I guess i have really dumb ideas but hey! Wesley is in a wheel chair now!! Maybe HE's Susanna!!!!!!!! hahaha... okay well... i doubt it but wouldn't it be cool? You don't think so do you? Why won't anybody validate my opinion!!???!?! sorry...

  • Feb. 22, 2001, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Hab SoSli' Quch!....

    by iloveryan

    ....["Your mother has a smooth forehead" in Klingonese] is something I might say if I were actually offended, G, but I wasn't really; I was just a bit irritated that you didn't know what I was talking about. By CAN'T RECIPROCATE, I mean a situation where a gay guy like myself finds his heart goin' pitter-patter for a straight guy. Not a very good idea, but keep in mind gay men are only 5% of the population (that 10% figure is pure BOLLOCKS, as Spike might say). And out here in the Great Midwest, that's a good way to get people talking about y'all in an unflattering way should the truth about your affections become known. Maybe I was a bit on the defensive side because during some of my more dysfunctional periods (i.e., my entire life up until about five years ago), I have engaged in some behavior for which only now am I learning to stop shaming myself. Though all I have to do is read any of "the Warrior's" posts to realize I probably could have turned out a lot worse! <Meow!>

  • Feb. 23, 2001, 6:40 a.m. CST

    Darkness I love the Dark Tower BUT

    by sundown

    while Angel is sort of like Roland I don't think Codelia is at all like Detta...

  • Feb. 23, 2001, 8:22 a.m. CST

    Sundown... the tower...

    by the_darkness

    Yeah, i really don't think cordy and detta are alike... but maybe susannah... except cordy still has her legs... and cordy used to be a major fucking bitch but also nice and and now she's kinda a mix of both... i am SOOOO going out on a limb... can you tell i just re-read the dark tower books for the 4th time? anyway... It would be cool if that were true that it was taking little elements from the dark tower but that might mean that angel, since he's kinda like Roland, is going to end up killing all of his friends on the way to his quest to conquer the dark tower (wolfram and hart)... anyway... my theories suck and i notice that no one else has ever said anything about that which either means i'm pretty damn original or that you know... i'm totally completely wrong... oh well.. time will tell

  • Feb. 23, 2001, 8:31 a.m. CST

    well there are similiar themes

    by sundown

    between Kings work and Joss's stuff. Both excel at taking ordinary people and making them behave REALISTICALLY in extraordinary circumstances. I

  • Feb. 23, 2001, 11:08 p.m. CST

    As long as we're talking about philsophers....

    by iloveryan

    ....just remember Nietzche is peachy, but Sartre is smarter! (And yes, I live in Wisconsin, but I'm not a limp-dick cheesehead like that James guy on SPIN CITY!)

  • Feb. 24, 2001, 6:27 a.m. CST

    Another observation (and before my first cup of caffeine)

    by Sylvia Simon

    Wolfram & Hart. Okay, can't it be Steel (Wolfram) & "Heart"? I totally agree with the prior post of Wolf, Ram & Hart (male deer), but steel (or knife?) in the heart - isn't that what lawyers do?

  • Feb. 24, 2001, 8:04 a.m. CST

    In the BACK, Sylia, in the BACK.

    by Seepgood

    Get it right.

  • Feb. 24, 2001, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Possession of the ring

    by skinnymalinky

    Was just going over the episode with a friend. Please confirm for me... Doesn't Darla have the ring?

  • Feb. 24, 2001, 5:55 p.m. CST


    by iloveryan

    ....Jimmy Carter is smarter, but Scooby-Doo can do! <crickets>

  • Feb. 25, 2001, 12:56 p.m. CST

    Yes Skinny, Darla has the ring now.

    by Sylvia Simon

    Hope you won that discussion.