There are few filmmakers quite like James Gray. For one, he’s one of the holdouts when it comes to switching to digital filmmaking, and as a result, his latest film, THE LOST CITY OF Z—set and filmed in the jungles of Amazonia—was shot on 35mm, even though he only had one actual 35mm print made for a select few preview screenings and archival purposes. But beyond his technical steadfastness, Gray also loves telling stories of people in strange lands. In LITTLE ODESSA and WE OWN THE NIGHT, he deals with the Russian experience in America, on both sides of the law. In TWO LOVERS, he contrasts the Jewish immigrant experience of two generations. And in his epic masterpiece THE IMMIGRANT, Marion Cotillard plays a Polish immigrant in America being repeatedly manipulated by the men in her life.
But in THE LOST CITY OF Z, he deals with a different type of travel to lands unknown. The film profiles Col. Percival Fawcett (Charlie Hunnam), a British explorer who set out to find evidence in Amazonia of a lost civilization that, if confirmed, would have predated all known civilization, which rubbed the very racist British aristocrats that were financing Fawcett’s many journeys. The film beautifully captures the reality of both his trips as well as the pushback he got back in the UK, and it’s an incredible and uniquely cinematic story. Continuing the themes of protagonists in parts unknown, Gray’s next film is set to be AD ASTRA, starring Brad Pitt (a producer on LOST CITY), about an Army Corps engineer who travels into space searching for his father, who vanished 20 years earlier searching for alien life on a mission to Neptune.
I had the chance to sit down with James Gray in Chicago recently to talk to him about THE LOST CITY OF Z and the common themes of most of his films. Please enjoy…
Capone: I feel like a lot of your films, almost all of them actually, are about people somewhere where they’re not originally from.
James Gray: That’s so interesting.
Capone: They’re perpetual outsiders, I guess is what I mean. Is that something that fascinates you, or did you not realize it fascinated you until I mentioned it?
JG: I’ve never thought about that at all. I think you’re 100 percent right. That was never a conscious thing, though. I think it has to do with my own life, my own upbringing, my own sense of belonging or lack of feeling like I belong. I don’t know. It’s interesting. It’s almost like it demands, to answer your question, which is an excellent one, it demands a level of distance that I don't have with myself. And if I did I think it would be kinda scary because it would mean that I sit around and analyze myself in a way that’s kind of creepy. I mean, you’re obviously right. It speaks to, I think, my own family heritage and honestly feeling really out of place, like I don’t fit in, which is a powerful idea dramatically also, but it’s one that is very personal.
Capone: Is that something you’ve felt since you were young, or something you feel as an artist?
JG: No, it’s something I’ve felt since I was young. I certainly felt it when I was young. I’m from Queens and from a middle-class/working-class neighborhood, semi-attached row house, and my childhood was certainly, materially it wasn’t disastrous, but I was out of it. I was in the middle of nowhere, as far as I felt. I felt like all the action is happening in Manhattan, not where I lived. Also, my grandparents, they didn't speak any English; they spoke Yiddish, and my father spoke Yiddish with them. And I wasn’t really able to communicate with them. So I felt in my own little world. The movies were my answer to that. That was the great escape. You sit in a dark room, and your mind could be elsewhere. If you watched DR. NO, you were in Jamaica with Sean Connery and Ursula Andress, and if you watched DOCTOR ZHIVAGO, you were in Russia. This was a great way to escape. That’s what I felt.
Capone: This particular story about this man who has his very unique vision of what he thinks he’s going to find, he has a lot of trouble convincing people of this, but at some point he has some level of success, and then everyone praises him. That’s basically the director’s story, isn’t it?
JG: Yeah, my wife pointed that out to me in the middle of production. That was something I never thought of consciously, and then these things happen where you wind up making your own story. He’s obsessed and he goes off for years at a clip, and his family is either the beneficiary of it, but usually the victims of that obsession, and then you come back and you miss the years of your children’s lives. It’s not totally true in my case. We made a concerted effort. My children and wife came to me to the jungle, but even so they left after three weeks, and I had months to go, so I was by myself for a lot of that time, and you do try to personalize. You try to make it about yourself as much as possible. I don’t mean autobiographically, I mean emotionally. So it is weird.
Even the most successful directors except for maybe, I don't know, James Cameron, most of our efforts are met with failure. Most movies are not hits. So it’s like that for Fawcett, right? Most of his journeys were not hits. And I think that’s a very powerful idea to try and express yourself personally and to make it about yourself as much as possible, and hopefully something interesting will emerge from that. So I think your observation is 100 percent correct.
Capone: I’ve interviewed a lot of British filmmakers and actors, and they all have said in some way that all British films are about class, whether that’s what they’re actually about or not, and you have encapsulated that. You’re not British, but you clearly understand that. This is a movie also about class, and so much of Fawsett’s struggle was about regaining stature in the eyes of these people that have dismissed him because of his heritage. What’s that great line about being unfortunate—?
JG: “He was very unfortunate in his choice of ancestors.”
Capone: Exactly. But how much of that did you identify with, and why was that important to make sure that got included here?
JG: Well, I just felt it’s the key to everything. I think class plays such a major role in the unfolding of our lives, either our awareness of it or our lack of awareness, and they have two different results. In his case, his striving was connected entirely to where he saw his position in the world and in British society, and that was both a source of his glory and a source of his folly. It’s hard to find something more complex that lends itself to a reading of history than that context.
The thing about social class that is so powerful is that it connects us not only to history but to a shorthand about who we believe we are. And so much of our behavior is determined by that. Rich people who think that they have had it rough, or poor people who want to get ahead and figure out a way to achieve something despite the difficulties of a background that’s been bequeathed to them. It’s such a great shorthand in establishing who we are and who we want to be. And also, it’s out of our control. You can’t control your family when you’re born. In the United States, the idea is that we can. It’s the Horatio Alger myth. You pull yourself up by the bootstraps and you’ll be a big success and all that, but really social mobility in the United States is worse than any other country in Western Europe, with the exception of England. So we have a class system that is just as entrenched. The difference here is it’s not official. We had a revolution; England did not. They still have their monarchy. Also, money means a lot to us in this country. The current president, for example, was looked down upon by a lot of New York real estate families, and in some way that fueled his major ambition.
Capone: I popped in last night for a little for part of the film just to see what it looked like in 35mm.
JG: It was amazing.
Capone: It looked beautiful. You made an interesting point during the Q&A that, in this particular environment, using film might have actually been an easier choice rather than using digital. Can you talk a little bit about shooting under those conditions with film? In my mind, I would think it would be cumbersome.
JG: It was cumbersome. It wasn’t about ease in that way. You have such an apparatus that goes along with film, but digital has an apparatus too. The cameras are smaller, but you have to have a digital technician there, and it’s quite a hassle, and the humidity in that environment is not a welcoming place for electronics. A lot of things didn’t work. My computer after about Day 2 stopped working. It just would not turn on. It’s almost entirely due to the humidity. Yes, it’s antiquated. It’s a very analog thing to do, but I think that ultimately bailed me out. Besides, I have to say, I know digital is great in so many ways, but you want to convey a humanity in the work, and the organic process of film is something that instantly conveys that, and it’s so telling isn't it that the one thing that digital can’t really do is get the complexion of the person. The flesh tones are not quite right. Think about that.
Capone: You literally can’t capture humanity.
JG: You can't capture a human face really.
Capone: With your next film, this science fiction story—yet another story about somebody journeying to somewhere where they’re not from. Is that an environment you could see working in digital?
JG: I have to test. In fact, I’m returning to LA tonight and tomorrow begins in earnest. I have a feeling it’s going to be 2 perf 35, which is a whole other type of 35mm film shot with two perforations so you have two images in one frame, but I’m not so sure about that yet. I have to test it. There are some people who talk about the Alexa 65 which is a new digital camera. They shot THE REVENANT on an Alexa 65. I’m skeptical, but I’m going to keep my mind open to it and I want to see what it’s like, and Panavision has a digital camera they’re coming out with. I’m going to look at all this stuff and see what I think.
I will say I warmed up to digital projection—DCP. Still recording the image on film but then projecting it digitally. Because one thing that you never have happen to you digitally is the movie runs out of focus, plays out of focus, or there isn't enough light on the screen. All these other problems we used to have. Now, the theater last night is a different issue. It’s run by a bunch of zealots, in the best sense. I showed it in 35mm at the Lincoln Center at the New York Film Festival last year, and it was great, because it was exactly right—35mm print projected perfectly is the best. The best. I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember 35mm the way it looked when you projected it in theaters around the country. You had a hair in the gate, it would be out of focus, it looked like shit half the time. You'd go in and have your people check the amount of light coming off the screen; it would be an embarrassment how dim it was.
Capone: Not to mention the sound issues on top of it.
JG: Oh god, it was disastrous. So there is a way to romanticize the past. We shouldn’t do that. And what it does mean though is a 35mm print screened the way it was last night is the way it should be.
Capone: Which I’m guessing was the main reason you had one struck the first place?
JG: I had it struck to show to show very infrequently, but I also had it struck because I wanted it to be archival.
Capone: That’s what I mean. To have a print, just so one exists.
JG: Yes, exactly. Absolutely. I think it’s important, because you’re not going to be able to play…have you tried to play a floppy disk recently? [laughs] You know what I’m saying? Film will never die, because kept properly climate controlled, it doesn’t go bad, and each frame, I mean, the mechanical process of the precision of film is always going to be there. Even if there’s no more projectors on the face of the earth you can still invent one that does that. Floppy disk playing is a whole other issue. So I feel like data retrieval is a lot harder. You have to be your own archivist. To have a print of each of my films I think is something I really treasure. I don't’ have a print of THE IMMIGRANT. One was not made. It only went to DCP. I’m going to have to spend my own money but I’m going to get a print made.
Capone: Let me just ask you about Charlie. This is the best work I’ve seen him do, easily. What was the path that lead you to him?
JG: He was not someone I ever thought of. It was supposed to be Brad Pitt. He bought the book, and then I couldn't quite get the movie together and he went off to do WORLD WAR Z, ironically enough, and the movie fell apart. Then it was going to be Benedict Cumberbatch. The Plan B people had worked with him on 12 YEARS A SLAVE, and they called me up and said “We’ve got this actor, Benedict Cumberbatch.” Of course, I’m an idiot. I didn't know who he was. I met him. I thought he was very arresting looking and had great a great voice. I thought, “This is interesting, this will be great.” And then his wife got pregnant when we were supposed to be in the middle of the Amazonia shoot. I couldn’t very well demand that she give birth on the Amazon River. That wasn’t going to fly in the middle of the remote place that we were. So he fell out, and I understand why but he did.
Then Plan B producers called me up and said, “We’ve got this actor, we worked with him on another script we’re developing it, and he’s great. He’s Charlie Hunnam.” My first reaction was a no, I would never cast Charlie Hunnam, because my wife had been binge watching “Sons of Anarchy.” I thought he was some California guy with tattoos. I said “I don’t want to cast that guy, he’s wrong. He’s a California blonde guy.” They said “No, no, no. He’s from Newcastle.” I said “Oh he is? I should meet him.”
So he came over, and I hadn’t seen much of what he’d done, and he was very charming and he had the same striving that Fawcett did. He was the same age, 35: he felt the same thing like “I’ve not had a chance to prove myself. I’ve got to do something that I can be worthy of and feel proud of.” I said “This is interesting. It’s like Fawcett t’s craving.” So that was how that came to pass. I loved working with him. He was so dedicated. He was just great. I love him in the film. I think it’s a great performance.
Capone: I’ve heard Fawcett described by some people writing about this movie as “reckless.” Do you think that’s true?
JG: It’s a very interesting point you make, because I have my own feeling on this, which is that I think there’s a misperception to be honest, and I think it stems, not intentionally, but from a covertly racist place, and let me try to explain why I feel this way. There is Herzog, who goes off and he makes AGUIRRE and FITZCARRALDO,, which are great movies and that’s in Amazonia but I didn’t see anything to do with those movies, because those movies are about a person driven mad by megalomania and by greed in the case of AGUIRRE, and here it was really about the rest of the world thinking he was mad, but he wasn’t. The whole point here was that he was trying to make some connection, even as a racist, which he was in real life, making some kind of connection with the indigenous peoples of South America.
And if I had made the film about him being reckless and crazy and a psychopath, it would have been to deny a certain level of normality, of the normal, that he encountered with the indigenous people of Amazonia. To assume that a white man who goes to the jungle means he must be nuts or reckless is a little bit racist. It does not acknowledge the normal that the was presented with when he met with the indigenous tribes. So I would be very careful about describing him as crazy or reckless because that is a way of contextualizing him and putting him in a box that comes from North America or white Western European superiority. Am I making sense?
Capone: Of course. The movie is also about that—the tremendous amount of racism that was prevalent in the scientific community.
JG: Absolutely. Eugenics theory—Winston Churchill was a big eugenics theory proponent. And that was a major aspect of the Royal Geographical Society, and it’s ugly. He was a racist too, but you have to judge someone in the context of their time. You can’t expect someone who was brought up, who was born in 1867 in a Victorian environment under brutal regime of the schooling system, where he was beaten on a routine basis. You can’t expect that person to all of a sudden have the politics of, I don’t know, reading James Baldwin or whatever. It doesn't happen. It’s not the way the world works. It’s 1880 when he’s being formed as a person, and I feel that there’s a level of moral superiority that we apply to people like that that I think is quite dangerous because we can not make ourselves better.
Capone: James, thank you so much. It was great meeting you.
