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HERC Is Flabbergasted By Tonight's ER!!

Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.

I don't think I can watch this. One of the few emotional attachments I still have to this show is the fate of Mark Greene, the character Anthony Edwards has been playing since the show's beginning. If something terrible is in store for him, I think I may stop watching now and just save myself the grief. Shame, too. There was a time when I considered this to be the pinnacle of TV drama, week in, week out. Now it may be well told, but it's not a story I want to hear anymore. HERCULES THE STRONG, on the other hand, is digging it much, and I'll let him tell you why...

ER 7.8 FAQ


“The Dance We Do.”


Abby uses these words to describe her relationship with her bipolar mom (still played by award-winning actress Sally Field).


Teleplay is credited to Jack Orman.


Prepare to hear your chin smack the floor.


It is! Even though I thought I read an NBC press release saying Thanksgiving’s episode was the last to be letterboxed! When this letterboxing will end (if ever) is now anyone’s guess!


It is not.


You will NOT BELIEVE the severity of Mark Greene’s condition.


They were not. Mark Greene is in very big trouble. Very big.


About 14 minutes in.


He becomes to first to learn of Greene’s terrible news.


He gets to confront his nephew’s girlfriend, the one he blames for his nephew’s gang-related death. She winds up in the ER after she is thrown from a speeding auto.


She does not. Dr. Weaver sits out this episode. But her fetching Thanksgiving dinner date puts in an appearance.


Also absent. Which makes this pretty much a villain-free installment.


Another no-show.


He is, but his role is largely relegated to sleeping with Abby Lockhart.


Corday gives her deposition on the mishap for which she’s being sued. It is in these scenes that the show trots out most of its weekly parcel of top-notch guest stars. Zeljko Ivanek (TV’s “Homicide”) plays her tormentor, Matt Craven (“Crimson Tide”) her counsel.


Mark tells Elizabeth the bad news, and Abby, in her jammies, has a good cry.



The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

**** better than most motion pictures

*** actually worth your valuable time

** as horrible as most stuff on TV

* makes you quietly pray for bulletins

See you at Numb-A-Thon, Ya Little Wiener Dogs There!

I am – Hercules!

Readers Talkback
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  • Dec. 7, 2000, 3:47 a.m. CST

    Right, so I missed this episode...

    by Exsanguine

    ...and the above write up seems to have left out just exactly what was the outcome of Greene's condition. Anyone? Bueller?

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 4:52 a.m. CST

    It hasn't aired yet, silly

    by Doppler

    You missed the episode because it hasn't aired yet, silly... Greene does not die this season. Anthony Edwards was even quoted as such in USA Today the other day. His contract isn't up until the end of next season, after which he WILL be leaving.

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 6:33 a.m. CST

    I remeber when you didnt know what was gonna happen to a charact

    by MAlkovich

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 8:08 a.m. CST

    DAMN IT! Damn it all to FOOKIN' HELL!!

    by Booyotch @ Work

    I swear, they ALWAYS Have the shittiest things happening to Dr. Green... he is always getting the short end of the stick! Personally, I think it is the unoriginality of the writers always using terrible things happening to Dr. Green as a sure-fire way to get people upset... Need tension? Mark gets attacked in a bathroom.... Gets divorced... Loses his best friend... his wife.....His father....His daughter.... Susan rejects him.... A FREAKIN BRAIN TUMOR!!!! Gimme a break....

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 8:23 a.m. CST


    by Helos

    Is this true letterboxing? I mean, are these episodes being filmed using letterbox techniques or are they filmed as usually and then the top and bottom of the screen are cut off? I am extremely curious because I am on the brink of purchasing a widescreen television to complement my DVD collection and the continued use of widescreen on network TV will push me [happily] into the purchase. Could this be a new trend? First color, then stereo, then surround sound, and then widescreen. I hope so!

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 9:30 a.m. CST

    I still miss the Anthony Edwards of Revenge of the Nerds infamy

    by Lance Rock

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 10:14 a.m. CST

    I'm getting tired of this

    by Deathass

    My wife and have been devoted ER fans, but we think the show is on the verge going "Con Air". That's my wife and I's code word for when a movie/show takes things to a new level of unbeleivability. In this season alone, a new tragedy has befallen a new cast member on a weekly basis, sometimes a tragedy hits 2 characters per week. IT's getting a little rediculous. No hospital in AMerica has this level of personal tragedy every week. It used to be the patients would have the tragedies, which makes since because it's an ER in a big city. But, in the last 5-6 weaks, cast membres have had to deal with a heavy bipolar mom (Abby), getting kicked down to a nurse because of funding problems with school (Abby), A nephew's gang related death (Benton), being fired for doing the right thing (Benton), being blackballed (Benton) Being re-hired under rediculous terms (Benton), Being sued (Corday), Being pregnant a an inopportune time (Corday), Being pregnant at an inopportune time (Chin), getting a brain tumor after getting engaged and learning you are having a baby(Green), having someone shot in front of you (Carter), continuing drug addiction problem (Carter), Killing an attacker out of self defense and nearly losing his job because of it (Luka). I'm sure their are more personal tragedies, but this is getting rediculous. I guess we should blame sweeps.

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 12:18 p.m. CST

    Why are Abby and Luka together, anyway?

    by Neutron Soup

    Is it just me, or is there a decided lack of chemistry between Maura Tierney and Goran Visnjic? I have to admit, I never liked Luka all that much anyway, but the relationship seems awfully thin. I don't know if the writers are writing it that way intentionally, or if it's just not coming off they way they wanted it to, or if I'm just experiencing those occasional side-effects they warned me about during the clinical trials...

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 12:46 p.m. CST


    by Johnny Q

    ... they always have bad things happen to Dr. Greene because it's meant as a tribute to David Morse's Dr. Morrison from St. Elsewhere. They even kind of look a like.

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 1:17 p.m. CST

    About Abby and Luka...

    by Doppler

    ...I totally agree. No chemistry. Now, Maura Tierney and Noah Wyle, there's chemistry. I think the Abby-Luka tryst is simply a smoke screen for the writers' real intention, which is to eventually pair Abby with Carter (a far more intriguing match, in my opinion).

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 1:42 p.m. CST

    They kill Greene and I am soooooo done with this show...

    by I am_NOTREAL

    I mean it. I only watch 2 dramas these days anyway and they had to replace Mulder on "X Files" or it would be only 1, "ER." Give me a break with all the biblical suffering for the character...he misdiagnoses a pregnant mother and she dies, then gets divorced...then Susan leaves...then he gets beat up...then his mother dies...then his father (in the same season!) this brain tumor business. Look, I know it happens in real life...I know people get brain cancer and other kinds of cancers, but isn't it kind of (how to say this without coming across as terribly insensitive)...disease of the week-ish? Especially when piled on top of these other things? Maybe it's time I gave up on "ER" and filled its slot with "The West Wing."

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 4:07 p.m. CST

    Is it just me

    by 2GOLD

    Or do most of the new ER characters have egos bigger than a mack truck??? The show used to be about a hospital, patients and sometimes we toss in some doctor development. Now it's all about the doctors and the patients can all just die. And now they are going to kill of Greene??? This is totally weak! If Edwards and Noah go, I'm booking this show under must avoid tv. They are the last two characters who are remotely interesting (Benton kinda cool but he can't save the show alone)! Geez, can't we give Carter and Greene a break!

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 4:28 p.m. CST

    WHO CARES???!!!

    by AdolfOlivrPantys

    This show has been jumping the shark for a year or more now. IT won't be long before it goes the way of Chicago Hope, which at one point, long ago, was a better show.

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 4:33 p.m. CST

    Still gonna watch

    by LinaInverse

    DarkHawke, it's called bisexuality... lots of people fall somewhere in between straight and gay on the continuum of sexual orientation. Plus, lots of people who consider themselves one end or the other sometimes experiment. Just because Kerry's interested in one particular woman doesn't mean she's automatically changed status or that she's renouncing men! On the issue of ER's increasing soapiness, there's been a lot of good discussion and analysis over at <>--and they post great, detailed episode summaries in case you happen to miss a show.

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 5:08 p.m. CST

    It's on life-support

    by Helos

    I agree. This show jumped the shark the minute George Cloonie left. Now it's just a glorified soap opera. Maybe NBC should just let it die before it suffers any more.

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 6:49 p.m. CST

    The scoop

    by Doppler

    Anthony Edwards contract is not up until 2002. Therefore, he will survive until at least May 2002. Edwards said in USA Today this week that he is leaving the show after his contract is up. Noah Wyle and Eriq La Salle also are signed up until 2002. Noah Wyle is probably going to leave at that time based on hints he has been dropping on talk shows. Carter is going to have a relapse next week. Jing-Mei is having her baby next week, after which she won't be on the show for several weeks (Ming Na's maternity leave, you know).

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 7:26 p.m. CST

    Ah just kill him off already! Or turn him into a comatose vegeta

    by Troublemaker2000

    I stopped watching this stupid show after Clooney and Margulies left anyway, kill 'em all I say and let the show flatline, it's overly melodramatic and cliched now anyway!

  • Dec. 7, 2000, 11:04 p.m. CST

    They Gave It All Away In Next Week's Preview

    by Southron

    Mark isn't going to die. He'll go for a second opinion next week, get a second CT scan and get some less drastic prognosis. This was basically all revealed in the preview for next week's show. Carter already told him to get a 2nd opinion. To nitpick their medical accuracy: Broca's area of the brain is not involved in speech recognition or formation of language. That happens in Wernecke's(sp?) area. Broca's area strictly controls the motor skills for speech (among other motor skills). At least, this is how my Mother the Speech Pathologist explains it. Strangely enough, Blair Underwood's character on City of Angels just got diagnosed with a tumor effecting his motor skills for speech. Coincidence?

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 12:12 a.m. CST

    this shows writing

    by heed

    Has gone to hell. People watched ER for two reasons: 1) the stuff that happens in the ER, and 2) the relationships between the characters. NONE of these characters are friends. NONE of them interact on a level besides bumping egos or having sex. What made this show great wasn't just cool episodes with 50 car pile-ups and the ensuing chaos. It was the relationships between clooney and goose, goose and the blonde doc, carol and clooney, carol and the blonde doc, etc. They interacted, they were friends, they didn't just react to each others traumatic event of the week. That is completely absent now.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 1:53 a.m. CST

    gee, my skull feels tight with this inopperable brain tumor

    by spunksf

    Brain tumors as far as the eye can see. Yes, Mark will be ok, even if it requires intervention from on high. The drama is what kind personality disorder he's going to develop after his miracle next week. Hmmn, I smell a "born-again" phase coming on. What I'd like to know is, when did Abbey and Luka start doin' the do? I can remember a first date that didn't go very well, a few weeks of avoidence of emotional baggage, Sally Field screaming an awful lot... I think they might of had coffee last week, but I admit I can't remember. And now they're swapping bodily fluids and still not talking a hell of a lot. Yeah, I see a bright future for this relationship.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 5:18 a.m. CST


    by Tall_Boy

    Kindergarden Cop rulez...

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 7:06 a.m. CST

    They're Fucking with us!

    by mizuke

    Don't you cry for Mark Greene, don't you dare. Those bastards at NBC are just fucking with us (shakes fist at bastards at NBC). My only question is: When will Benton or even Carrie Weaver, for that matter, ever get a chance to cheat death? Because by my count, I've got Mark surviving a severe bathroom beating, an overly-hyped helicopter crash, and now (potentially) a bout of inoperable brain cancer. Carter gets to survive a stabbing and a nasty addiction to pain killers. What do Benton and Weaver get? Natta! Come on, ER. Let's spread the misery out a little! (but seriously, tonight's episode was great, per usual.)

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 7:57 a.m. CST

    Miracle Mile (89)

    by 1000monsters

    if u like Edwards....... see!

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 9:44 a.m. CST

    Romano a villain? No, he's the best one on ER!

    by ___JonBoy___

    Romano goes to work and kicks ass! He's my frickin' idol!

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 9:45 a.m. CST

    What do you mean, no characters are friends?

    by Doppler

    Carter is friends with Abby, and also with Jing-Mei. So quitcher bitchin.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 10:06 a.m. CST


    by dondi

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 10:12 a.m. CST

    glioblastoma multiforme

    by dondi

    was the diagnosis, and it is basically a death sentence. In the real world, with surgery, the average life expectancy is 11 months or so. This is a good disease for TV because the writers can drag it out as long as they want (until the next sweeps period) and then drop the hammer. Dep. on how realistic the writers want to be, this would be an unusual disease to lay on him and then have him recover--it is rare to survive this (but plausible). The Enquirer had a "story" saying AE was leaving the show and asked for the tumor to kill him dead with no hope of reappearing later. I know it is the Enquirer, but they seem to be right just enough to make you wonder... I still hope they don't kill him. What a PR disaster that would be. There really aren't any other compelling characters left to fill that void. Ratings would take a big hit. But if he wants to leave, he will leave.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 10:22 a.m. CST


    by icedragon

    I'm sure I saw something that they signed Edwards and Wyle to monster contracts right after Clooney left because they were tired of losing major characters ever season. I doubt they are going to kill him off 2 years into that kind of deal.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 10:31 a.m. CST

    ER is still the best thing on TV

    by beaoure

    Oh, come on, obviously the drama-level is boosted 1000%, it's a friggin' TV show. People tune into ER because it's a great weekly drama. As if anyone would sit through a weekly drama that depicted the literal daily grind of an actual ER. It's true, the principals endure a lifetime's worth of tragedies every season, but, big surprise, real life isn't as riveting to a national audience. If any of you are watching the show because you 'really want something totally and completely realistic', maybe you shouldn't bother. I'd suggest going to a real ER and watching what transpires, but I suspect they probably have NBC on their TVs as well.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 10:46 a.m. CST

    ERs are staffed by real people....

    by Ninja Nerd

    ...some of which have real problems. Some of the TBer's are protesting the lack of credibility, bad karma overload, and so on. I worked in an ER for 3 years. As I recall...vividly sometimes...we pretty much had characters like the ones on the show. I knew nurses and docs with drug problems, saw marriages, divorces, relationships form and then disintegrate. Never had a shooting IN the ER, but many fistfights and at least one knifing requiring law enforcement and security responses. The human drama of the staff was every bit as interesting as the ones coming through the door. We had our share of miracles and tragedies. Malpractice? Yup. Heroism? In spades. In short, I like ER and don't think it's unrealistic at all.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Gideon's Crossing is TWICE the show ER is

    by Portnoy

    ER is such a has been show that Anthony Edwards would be outright stupid not to leave this sinking ship. If you're looking for the best medical drama on television, look no further than Wednesday nights at 10pm on ABC. Wednesday's Gideon's Crossing made last night's ER look like a UPN show.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 12:11 p.m. CST

    ER=My Life?

    by Ralphie

    I can't believe no one's mentioned it, but the Green/Corday situation is strangely similar to the Michael Keaton/Nicole Kidman movie. A hardworking professional, played by a balding but attractive actor who made silly comedies in the 80's, finds out that he has terminal cancer. Meanwhile, his wife, played by a beautiful curly-haired actress with a Brittish/Australian accent, finds out she is pregnant. See what I mean? Man, if Queen Latifah shows up next week and Mark starts seeing a holistic healer, we'll all know what's next. Also, MIZAKE mentioned that Weaver has not escaped death, and I would like to point out that she did survive a toxic contamination that caused seizures. It was a couple of season ago in the episode where they had to evacuate the ER while Carter was in charge. I can't really remember Benton cheating death, though. Any one?

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 12:46 p.m. CST

    The problem: It's joyless

    by Doppler

    The only real serious problem I have with the show this season is that it's become almost devoid of joy. We do not get a sense of what personal satisfaction or uplift the doctors derive from treating their patients, any more. This was also a problem last season, but seems worse this year because of all the heavy plot events with the main characters. Abby is an OK character, but she almost NEVER SMILES. Her relationship with Luka is utterly joyless. They neither talk to each other or touch. I don't mind the increased emphasis on characters, but for God's sake, when they do have patient stories, remind the audience of the joy and wonder of being a physician. That is what the show was always based on. They can tinker with the storytelling formula all they like, but people will stop watching if the show just becomes a massive downer. People will sit through the shootings, muggings, explosions and brain tumors, but they will not stand for unabated doom and gloom.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 1:05 p.m. CST

    I stand corrected

    by mizuke

    Ok, so maybe Weaver has had her brush with death (thanks for the reminder, Ralphie), but I'm pretty sure Benton has been spared so far. Come on now, NBC. The man's been on the show from the beginning, yet not once has he been beat down, stabbed, shot, run over, bludgeoned, diagnosed with a horrible disease, thrown from an airplane, tied to train tracks, poisoned with deadly chemicals, set upon by a pack of rabid sea lions, or anything. Damn! Whats a brother got to do to be almost killed around here, anyway? :-)

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 4:07 p.m. CST

    The saddest episode

    by Paleogirl77

    would be: Dr.Green being able to hold his newborn baby for the first time right before dying. Hopefully the kleenex industry will be spared if they keep him till 2002.

  • loved it!!!!! However, NBC can't afford to lose Greene or Carter. They'll be in HUGE trouble if that happens. By the way -- the best show on television is THE SOPRANOS -- nothing else is even close. I suggest if you don't have HBO, get it if you can. JAMES GANDOLFINI KICKS ASS!!!!!!!!They're running the first an second season doing back to back episodes every Sunday night at 8 and 9 p.m. until the EXPLOSIVE new season begins. I promise you won't be dissapointed.

  • Dec. 8, 2000, 8:27 p.m. CST

    Another word about GBM

    by Aesculapius

    Frankly, I will be disappointed if Mark Green survives this tumor. For those of you that don't know, glioblastoma multiformans is probably the most aggressive tumor you could ever get. It grows so rapidly that it gets ahead of its own blood supply. As a result, the center of it dies and becomes "necrotic" as stated in the episode. These things can double in size in less than 1 month. Chemotherapy is usually ineffective and radiation just slows the growth. Surgery usually can't remove the whole just "debulks" the tumor to prolong life. The way people die from these tumors is usually brain herniation - the size of the tumor pushes the brain through the hole in the bottom of the skull. Bad news folks. Assuming the diagnosis is correct, his chances even with chemo, surgery and radiation are about 6 months. Long term survival is almost zero.

  • Dec. 9, 2000, 2:05 a.m. CST

    Gideon's Crossing BITES!

    by samdu

    I'm not an ER worshipper or anything, but it's a MUCH better show than GC. Andre Brauer is the ONLY thing good about GC. I was watching it the other night and couldn't bring myself to leave it on the channel because the other characters are soooo poorly acted and written. What's with the English chick that seems to have to concentrate on every word in order to speak? Ugh. BTW - Speaking of Anthony Edwards and Miracle Mile, it's an awesome flick. I understand why it didn't do well, but it still rocks. Check it out.

  • Dec. 9, 2000, 2:06 a.m. CST

    Gideon's Crossing BITES!

    by samdu

    I'm not an ER worshipper or anything, but it's a MUCH better show than GC. Andre Brauer is the ONLY thing good about GC. I was watching it the other night and couldn't bring myself to leave it on the channel because the other characters are soooo poorly acted and written. What's with the English chick that seems to have to concentrate on every word in order to speak? Ugh. BTW - Speaking of Anthony Edwards and Miracle Mile, it's an awesome flick. I understand why it didn't do well, but it still rocks. Check it out.

  • Dec. 9, 2000, 8:50 a.m. CST

    Misdiagnosis or set up for eventual departure

    by Drath

    As someone else said, Mark Greene has got a VERY serious illness that a real person WOULD NOT SURVIVE! Thus, he either has been misdiagnosed, which would be interesting, or he will in fact die at some point around his 2002 end of contract. If Anthony Edwards or Noah Wyle leave, I and a lot of other people will stop watching, and I think the producers know this. Maura Tierney's Abby Lockheart is the only new character I've enjoyed, and that's mostly thanks to Teirney's performance more than anything else. Why can't the show be about real people again and not incredible calamities left and right. What used to be great about the show was how it seemed authentic. Sure it was fake as hell, but it was a commendable illusion. Maybe the departure of Carol Hathaway and Doug Ross really WAS death, the writers don't seem to know how to continue without giving people hexes. But for now, all I have is the sentimental fondness of Greene and Carter(two characters I'd like to see develope and actual friendship with one another), and maybe now Abby. But either of those first two guys go and I won't watch, the backbone of the show will have left. The only original character left would be Peter Benton, and I'm surprised La Salle hasn't jumped ship already. He looks annoyed that he hasn't left for movies like Clooney. And I don't blame him, he could act circles around Clooney. But even so his character has lost focus(I HATE his "love interest" Cleo). Benton seems to exist just to give Ramono someone to torture. If La Salle, Wyle, and Greene all leave, who's he got left to torture--aside from maybe Corday again? I'd cheer him on if he tortured Luka, or Cleo, or Weaver, or Malucci.

  • Dec. 9, 2000, 11:45 a.m. CST

    Plan to cure? GBM is bad choice...

    by Ranger13

    I, for one, do not want Edwards to leave the show. But, speaking as someone who's wife died from a GBM six months ago (she was diagnosed 2 months before that...went from 1cm to all over her brain and eventually destroyed her brain stem - and she had a surgery to remove it, and started radiation), if they "cure" him I will be totally pissed off. Yes, there are a handful of folks who survive (usually through very severe means, like removing a few dozen square inches of brain tissue along with the visible tumor - which isn't even possible since they already said they can't do that when he was diagnosed). My god, recovering from psychological problems, addictions, divorces, etc, is one thing, but "magically" being cured of a disease that is for all intents and purposes completely uncurable would stretch it too much. I hope for the writers' integrity sake that Edwards *is* leaving and that they didn't write themselves into a corner.

  • Dec. 9, 2000, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Plan to cure? GBM is bad choice...

    by Ranger13

    I, for one, do not want Edwards to leave the show. But, speaking as someone who's wife died from a GBM six months ago (she was diagnosed 2 months before that...went from 1cm to all over her brain and eventually destroyed her brain stem - and she had a surgery to remove it, and started radiation), if they "cure" him I will be totally pissed off. Yes, there are a handful of folks who survive (usually through very severe means, like removing a few dozen square inches of brain tissue along with the visible tumor - which isn't even possible since they already said they can't do that when he was diagnosed). My god, recovering from psychological problems, addictions, divorces, etc, is one thing, but "magically" being cured of a disease that is for all intents and purposes completely uncurable would stretch it too much. I hope for the writers' integrity sake that Edwards *is* leaving and that they didn't write themselves into a corner.

  • Dec. 10, 2000, 5:43 p.m. CST

    Dear Lord, not just a tumor, but a zombie tumor.

    by Village Idiot

    That's got to be one of the most TERRIBLE things I've ever heard of: a tumor that dies as it grows. HOLY COW! Yes, I'm afraid ER will become the long, slow, painful, yet life-affirming (uh. . .yeah) story of Greene BITING THE BIG ONE. I'll bet Anthony Edwards can't wait (to STRETCH, acting wise). From a fan point of view, this is just TOO MUCH of a bummer. Like the Talkbacker above mentioned, Greene has been SHAT upon every season since the damn show started. Sorry, I can't take it.

  • Dec. 10, 2000, 6:27 p.m. CST

    Hey, Darkhawke

    by Vince Tyler

    Hey, Darkhawke: Your logic is flawed. So, you think the "homosexual advocates" (whatEVER, dude) should be upset because they've been arguing that a person either is or isn't gay and Weaver's story belies that? Hey, guess what? It doesn't. We live in a society that ASSUMES people are straight until they are forced to actively stand up and clearly articulate otherwise in order to satisfy the clueless dunderheads who don't get it. You know what that means? That means that a lot of people end up wasting a good portion of their lives trying to convince themselves that they're straight when, in fact, they're not, 'cause, in their minds, it seems an awful lot easier to stay quiet than expose themselves to ridicule and misunderstanding. A lot of people get all the way to middle age or later before finally giving up and realizing it's too painful to live with that kind of internal struggle all the time. On that timetable, Weaver's actually ahead of the game. You know what? It pisses me off that when a show like this takes a tiny, hesitant step toward enriching this character, developing her in a way that's interesting and compelling and actually goes a long way toward explaining a lot that we've seen in her for the last six seasons, people like you start screaming and running for the fire exits. Think it's "shit," do you? I don't. Makes you nervous that there's ONE other show out there that allowed ONE other character to fall for a girl OVER A YEAR AGO? Awww, too bad. That means that now there are TWO shows out of the approximately 130 on broadcast air that feature a little girl-on-girl action (if, of course, by girl-on-girl action you mean hugging passionately, but that's a whole OTHER argument). Don't like it? Don't watch. Society isn't crumbling, our values aren't falling apart. There are still, last time I checked, a few shows featuring straight characters. How many? Oh, right. ALL of them. Get over yourself, pick up a newspaper once in a while, pull your head out from the sand and take a look around. The world's still a pretty great place, even with Willow AND Weaver enjoying the company of women.

  • Dec. 11, 2000, 1:48 a.m. CST


    by You Ate Sand?

    Get this, this just came to me, you guys are going to love this idea, how about, if you don't like ER..... then... get this.... DON'T WATCH IT!!!!! Wait, I just got another great idea: DON'T POST IN A TALKBACK TO A SHOW YOU DISLIKE ANYWAY!!!!!!

  • Dec. 11, 2000, 9:17 a.m. CST

    Good grief, Vince Tyler, talk about narrow-minded

    by beaoure

    Are you kidding me with this "almost no gays on TV thing"? What a joke. Every network has gone gay-crazy. It's a relentless fad. "Let's raise some eyebrows by introducing a... gay man! ...a gay woman! Whooo! Edgey! Alternative!" As if there's a whole lot of risk involved in this day and age in endorsing homosexuality. Hell, if you watch Will & Grace, you'd think there are only a handful of straight people left in New York. Virtually every incidental character is gay! If you REALLY want some interesting controversy, how about introducing a "conservative" character that takes issue with the morality of homosexuality... without presenting him or her as old, ugly, narrow, and stupid. If I think that being gay is a conscious choice based on the evidence I've read... and if I think that making the choice to become a homosexual is morally dubious... does that make me unintelligent? No, it makes me just another person enjoying the privilege of having an opinion, just like you. I'm not out to "keep gays off TV" or anything like that (nor, I'm certain, is Darkhawke)... however, I do think the notion that homosexual characters are such a struggling minority on network TV is ludicrous. Every day someone new on television is "coming out" or "experimenting".

  • Dec. 11, 2000, 11:04 a.m. CST

    My problem with ER this year

    by usagi

    Besides the general lack of joy on the show (as pointed out by a pervious talkbaker) is a glarring plot hole point- namely benton's firing. Here's the deal- I work in the hospital industry. There is no way Romano could have fired benton for what he did. All it would take would be one call by Benton to the IDPH (the Illinois department of Public Health- the guys who Benton called in the first place to rat Romano out) and Romano would be given a choice, A) Rehire benton or B) lose your Medicaid funding. Trust me, they lose thier Medicaid (even for a week) and they are screwed...they might as well shut down. There are law that protect benton from just what happened to him. For a show that used to pride itself on being accurate, I can't see how this one would have slipped through.

  • Dec. 11, 2000, 4:36 p.m. CST

    actually, the answer is no

    by Elian Ranel

    thinking that makes him have an opinion, which he is perfectly entitled to have, just as he said. it doesn't make him stupid in the general world view. however, if you choose to think that he's stupid for having an opnion, perhaps you should question your own intelligence.

  • Dec. 12, 2000, 12:30 a.m. CST

    opinions and ignorance

    by Elian Ranel

    lelon, if you are reffering to me in your comments there, i must say i'm insulted. i am neither stupid nor ignorant when it comes to gay people, considering my best friend is gay. and when it comes to anything having to do with human emotions or sexuality, there aren't really any facts anyhow. people vary. but i know i'm not going to change your OPINION, so why am i bothering?

  • Dec. 12, 2000, 6:48 a.m. CST

    Lelon and his blessed moral absolutes

    by beaoure

    Lelon operates from the assumption that his opinions and influences are "facts." And, that by ignoring the "facts", I am, therefore, "stupid." Lelon goes on to point out that my morals are in question and I'm probably a closeted homosexual myself. Don't worry, Lelon, I'm not threatened (nor, be assured, is my wife) by your accusations. Actually, I'm rather refreshed and encouraged. You're obviously a person of great passion in your convictions. But, what encourages me the most is how tightly you hold onto "facts". The word "fact", by nature, denotes an absolute. Truth defines untruth and vice-versa. Though you may not have considered it, the word "moral" denotes an absolute, also (and, by questioning my morals, you obviously believe that morality exists). Anytime "facts" and "morals" are brought into question, it means that the person doing the questioning is working under a larger, absolute "truth." Now, I'm not trying to philosophize you to death (stay with me, here), but, by your own words, you do believe in a standard. A governing truth that applies to more than just yourself or just myself. This means that, on issues of "fact", we cannot both be right if we disagree. I say homosexuals choose to be homosexual. If I want, I can choose to be one. You can choose to be one. It's your freedom. I'm as inherently gay as Ellen DeGeneres or Tom Cruise. So are you. Remember when Anne Heche was a lesbian with a capital "L"? Then, wonder 'o wonders... she made a different "choice." Apparently we're NOT slaves to our nature. We're gay if we choose to be, just like we're straight if we choose to me. I contend that this choice is a moral one. Operating under Lelon's absolute standard, I submit that homosexuality is "wrong." Lelon if you disagree, that's cool. That's your freedom. But, by your own unconscious admission, one of us is wrong. I think you know that I'm not unintelligent. You felt threatened, and you posted because of it. Don't sweat it, I don't blame you. But, again, one of us is right and one is wrong... my "opinion"? I think you haven't thought it completely through.

  • Dec. 12, 2000, 11:21 a.m. CST

    hey beaoure

    by Vince Tyler

    Hey, beaoure -- if you're going to quote me, do it right, and make sure the things you put in quotes are things I actually said. I also certainly never said anything about STRUGGLING. 'Cause, I gotta be candid with ya, dude...we're NOT struggling. We're getting stronger and louder and more confident every day. Sorry, 'cause I think your reaction, your assumption that I said gay people were struggling, was a little too quick. Would it make you more comfortable if we were weak and whining for acceptance? Ha, ha, too bad. I'm not waiting for anyone to HAND me respect, I'm TAKING it. And maybe that's what freaks people like you out most of all. How do I know? There are TWO shows on the air right now, TWO, with gay leads. Only ONE of those shows, "Will and Grace," ACTUALLY shows the gay lead having gay friends and DATING other gay people, but you're ready to make that an indication that TV has gone "gay-crazy." Think there are too many gays on TV? I don't think there are enough. Do a freakin' count if you like numbers so much. Heck, not just leads, include ALL series regulars. How many SERIES REGULARS play gay characters on TV? Seriously, take a second and start counting. Is it enough to make TV "gay-crazy"? Not by my standard. The airwaves are still pretty safe for straight characters, and THAT, by the way, is an understatement. Your standard for gay-crazy is, apparently, different than mine, yours is called reactionary: a relative handful -- a HANDFUL -- of gay characters show up and you're freaking out. Perhaps you're just really someone who would like all of your gay characters peripheral, campy, and, when possible, in a dress -- anything else and you're ready to start stomping your feet demanding to have the airwaves back and ready to call the networks gay-crazy. And you fall back on the old, charming chestnut of how we're morally dubious. Call us names all you want...all I can tell you is that if THIS is what you call gay-crazy, just wait. It's only gonna get worse for you, sweetheart. And I have yet to see any of the facts or evidence that you keep referring to. Citing Anne Heche is anecdotal at best -- and lame at worst (how about picking someone who doesn't have to answer to publicists and a viewing audience that, as you proved yourself, think of her not as an actress first, but as a "lesbian with a capital L" -- whatever THAT means?). And since you've opened the door to anecdotal evidence, I'll go you one better, and this one's actually relevant -- John Paulk. You remember him, right? Poster boy for the ex-gay ministry, hit the big publicity circuit a couple of years ago spouting pretty much the same empty, emotion-based arguments you're tossing out here, became a big celebrity for saying that he had CHOSEN not to be gay anymore, then got busted this year for sneaking around in a gay bar in Washington, DC. He couldn't help it, poor thing. Being gay is not a choice. THAT is a fact, and it's backed up by ACTUAL, scientific evidence. What IS a choice, however, is the way people DEAL publicly with those internal feelings. You can accept them or lie to yourself and everyone else. You, obviously, would have gay people stifle who they are, push it way down so it doesn't bother your delicate sensibilities. You want them to lie, which, to me, seems most morally dubious of all. ain't gonna happen. I wonder, of course, how YOU fit into this model of choice you keep describing. It it's true that being gay is a choice, if I sat myself down one day and specifically said to myself, you know, I think from now on I'm going to really enjoy getting sweaty with other men, then I guess that means you sat down one day and decided not to. You did, right? Because if you didn't, if you didn't spend some time thinking this thing al the way through, I guess that would mean you haven't really MADE your choice yet, which would be kind of weird for you (to say nothing of your wife). Finally, I'm not gonna say you're unintelligent, because I do not know you. Based on your posts, it seems like you're a fan of inductive as opposed to deductive reasoning, and I don't think that's the smartest way to think out an argument, but your intellignece is not for me to judge. I WILL say, however, that "edgy" only has one "e."

  • Dec. 12, 2000, 11:55 a.m. CST

    What happened?????

    by G-BOY

    Can we end this bickering? EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion, PERIOD! To chastise someone for their opinion is ludicrous. Anyway, I thought we were talking about ER.

  • Dec. 12, 2000, 2:13 p.m. CST


    by beaoure

    Phew. Where do I start? Mm... First of all, "struggling." Yes, I inferred that you depict your fellow homosexuals as "struggling" for more airtime on network television. My question is: so, are you the underdog or not? My position is that you're NOT the underdog and, based on your most recent post, it seems that you agree. However, in your previous post, you were practically demanding that we see more gays on the boob tube. If you're all coming at us full-force, "louder and more confident," why are you worried about it? Apparently, you've got a beautiful, gay world to look forward to, so why should the comments of fools like me make a difference? ********** Would I rather you were weak and whining? Of course not. Have some dignity, it's still worth something, especially to me. Do I think there are too many gays on TV? Heck, I dunno. I do think it's a current craze, though. It's hip, that's all. And I'm wondering about your quote, "I'm not waiting for anyone to HAND me respect, I'm TAKING it. " Whoa. Huh. I, uh... I guess the old notion of earning respect went out the window, huh? Well, go ahead and "take" your respect, man. Good luck with the world. ********** And, yes, I'll concede that most people on TV are straight, for all the sense that argument makes. But, then, the percentage of straight folks in the WORLD far outweigh the percentage of those who've chosen homosexuality. It's like arguing that most people on TV aren't Guatemalan. It's true, very few Guatemalans... but, give me a break. ********** You also mentioned, "you're ready to start stomping your feet demanding to have the airwaves back..." Um, check the post, dude. I said it quite clearly, "I'm not out to keep gays off TV." They were never my airwaves to begin with. Nor were they yours. However, I am, still, allowed my opinion about what I see and what I like and what I believe. You seem to have yours, can't I have one? Or, do I need to be as "enlightened" as you first? ********** To continue, you mentioned, "And you fall back on the old, charming chestnut of how we're morally dubious. Call us names all you want...all I can tell you is that if THIS is what you call gay-crazy, just wait. It's only gonna get worse for you, sweetheart." Charming chestnut? Nice semantics, but, no, I'm intelligent enough to know that it's indeed a tough pill to swallow, as you've demonstrated. You say it'll only get worse for me? Really. How? I don't consider my view on homosexuality to be bigoted any more than my view that date rape is wrong is "bigoted." Some of the most delightful people I know are homosexuals. However, that particular choice of lifestyle is, in my eyes (and I'm certainly not alone) immoral. Am I comparing gays to rapists? No, not directly, I'm only comparing one form of immorality to another. ********** The Anne Heche example doesn't work because she's a famous actress? Good grief, I suppose I should have picked someone obscure to really drive the point home. Whatever, man. ********** As far as the medical proof that being gay is nature or nurture... dude, I've got volumes of science articles on my side and you've got volumes on your side. It all contradicts and we could go on forever with that sparring session. You think I believe the scientists I believe because I have a predisposition from my beliefs? I have to hand it to you, it's a good argument. You may be right. But, look in the mirror, Daddy-o, because the same applies to you. You believe the "proof" that supports your lifestyle and call it "fact." John Paulk? Never met the man, but I believe you. It actually reinforces my point. I'm sure he enjoyed his gay lifestyle, but, if I had to hazzard a guess, he probably eventually found it morally empty and spiritually unfulfilling. Even after "going straight" there are still choices to make. He was faced with the temptation (which I'm aware is a very real one) and he chose to slip back in. Either way, once again, a choice was made. ********** Would I have gay folks lie? No, honesty is an underappreciated commodity in these contemporary times. Most of all, I think homosexuals should be honest with themselves. REALLY honest. Would I have them "supress" their feelings? You know, it's interesting: by my reasoning, restraint and chastity are honorable virtues. Sadly, virtues that have all but fallen by the wayside in the wake of the maniacal pursuit of "self-expression" and "limitless indulgence." ********** Have I ever sat down and considered the options of my sexuality? Have I consciously decided to be "straight?" An EXCELLENT question, Vince. A very poignant question, as well. The answer is "yes." I have. I owe it to myself and to my marriage to consciously choose heterosexuality and to pursue it. And, yes, my sexuality is a pursuit. A rewarding one. ********** Inductive or deductive? You might want to reconsider which of us is the "inductive" one. Compare our posts. Also, I'M the one with emotion-based reasoning? Really. Nnnhh.... again, I'd challenge you to compare the posts. ********** By the way, I've far more spelling and grammar errors than simply the mistake on "edgy." If it makes you happy, and if it makes you feel superior, please, by all means, go find them and exploit them.

  • Dec. 12, 2000, 2:14 p.m. CST

    People Suck:

    by beaoure

    Yes, but we must try, musn't we? If we can't reason, what's the point? By the way, I'm not altogether in agreement with you about how we "erroniously refer to as secular humanism" the root of this discussion. In my estimation, secular humanism plays a very LARGE part of this discussion. Why is there something instead of nothing? Why has the issue of morality developed in every culture in recorded history? These are some of the questions the secular humanist must begin to reckon with. Is this philosophical volley like asking stones to float? Ah, maybe. Maybe.