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More on BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER
Hey folks, Harry here and it seems Bruce Timm has finally surfaced to chime in on the whole BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER thing. And there is a tone to his quotes in this piece that FANDOM.COM has put together that just seems this side of controlled anger and with a slightly defeatist attitude. From the sound of it, Timm was involved in the entire process... all the way through. The cuts were made to appease the UNDER 5 YEARS OLD DEMOGRAPHIC!
"For six year olds and older, they probably could understand it," admits Timm. "But for fives and younger, it was probably a bit too much. We had to go back in, edit it and redo some of the animation." Ok, first off... 5 year olds' parents should ALWAYS preview the material they are going to show their kids. A simple warning... like on toys... RECOMMENDED FOR AGES 6 & UP.... would've sufficed it looks like. Meanwhile Steve Fritz at FANDOM.Com delivers what has to be the most ridiculous comment on all of this I have seen yet:
"Only if you never want a kid of six and under to ever see the final product. To do it would be the equivalent of seeing Mickey Mouse do porn. We adults might get our jollies off of it, but you better believe Disney will come down on the perpetrators like a ton of bricks." --STEVE FRITZThis is nothing at all like Mickey Mouse doing porn.... this is the equivalent of seeing TWO-GUN MICKEY... a 1934 Mickey Mouse cartoon where Mickey Mouse is a gunslinger that shoot Peg Leg Pete and drinks beer. NOW... I find it freaking amazing that a 1934 period 5 year old could handle a cartoon character with a gun and in addition... BOOZE... and today our children can't. After all... how many little kids were shooting up their schools in 1934... where the most popular freakin form of entertainment was the B-WESTERN which was exclusively gun slinging and killing. OOOOOHHHH Our Grandparents are all a bunch of degenerates because of these Cartoons. GET REAL!!!
This is UTTER INSANITY! PORN? What sort of frickin spin is that? I happen to of been a child with a WALLY WOOD poster on my wall beginning at the age of 2 that had all the Disney characters in soft core orgy. As a small child it was hung up high on my wall... and I just thought of it as a cool gathering of characters. When I hit about 9 I realized that Pinnochio's nose was going under Cinderella's dress and that for some reason all the dwarves were lined up behind Snow White... who's legs were spread. I giggled when I looked at it. ONLY NOW as an adult do I look at it and REALLY understand what all was going on there. VIOLENCE and SEX in abstract forms like CARTOONS do not scar. What scars is your mother being slugged by your father...
By cutting what all they've cut.. they've actually DAMAGED THE MORALS of the story. Now the JOKER isn't all that bad. Now, the child doesn't make the right decision. Now evil isn't that unappealing and the punishment ain't so bad. By lightening up the material... they have washed away the messages that were intended. MESSAGES that should get into a 5 year old's head. PINNOCHIO is more inappropriate and violent than RETURN OF THE JOKER was. SNOW WHITE is more violent! PETER PAN is more violent. Disney has a long long history of rather strong scenes that are the exclamation points in a young mind. The moments where you cover your eyes... Where you hug mom or dad. NOW IT IS A PASSIVE PIECE OF PABULUM.
This is so not right. Meanwhile, Congrats to Bruce Timm... looks like his JUSTICE LEAGUE series is getting off the ground with the classic team of characters. CLICK HERE TO READ MORE ON JLA and BATMAN BEYOND!!!
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Can someone just tell me where to download the uncensored version?
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Go to CuteMX, download the program and like Scour, search for the file. Now, to Batman- It's just too sad these nazis try to censor something which doesn't have a cute, fuzzy Pika-lumpa-shit in every episode..."IT'S ALL ABOUT FAMILY VALUES!!!! Well, kiss my Pocahontas ass! And is there any truth to the rumor that they are now trying to ax the Powerpuff Girls because Mojo Jojo's accent is degrading to Armenian people? If this is true, we really need to do something about those censorship assholes...well, Love, Peace and Chicken Grease
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when you should be making Looney Toons analogies! We ARE talking a WB production here.
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I was one of those who really wanted this movie. I heard of the cuts, I was pissed, but I was sure they wouldn't cut too much. Then, I heard they were cutting a lot. I went for the download off Cutemx, worked fine, the movies great. Believe me, the cut version is totally different, especially concerning the absolutely awe-inspiring flashback scenes. Just download the thing boys, God Bless the Internet and Fuck the WB.
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Ultimate Spider-Man sucked. X-Men: Evolution sucks. Batman: The Animated Series ruled. Superman was moderately decent. Batman/Superman Adventures kicked ass. Batman Beyond is one of the best animated series I've ever seen. It's so lame that they would target something to Under 5-year-olds. The average kid under five doesn't understand what's going on on any show. The suits are idiots. Dini should be ripshit. I'm ripshit. I'm getting upset. I need to punch something.
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i downloaded the batman movie and i cant make the avi play. I have media player and 3 or 4 other players from download.com, what do you use to make them play?
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That quote is one of the dumbest comments I've ever read, on many levels. I'm in awe of its stupidity.
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This guy likes Spider-Man: Unlimited, and he seems to prefer the cut version of Return of the Joker. What kind of carrot brained wuss is this? I remember watching the original Bugs Bunny toons when I was four. You know, the ones where Elmer Fudd would be caut in an explosion and came out of it looking like he was wearing blackface. The ones where characters routinely blew their own brains out with .38 revolvers. The shit we don't see now. I saw this stuff all the time as an impressionable youth and I turned out to be... well, a paranoid psycotic. But you must admit, the edited Bugs sucks ass andt the edited Batman sucks big fat rhino ass.
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don't worry batfriends "We can rebuild it, we have the technology." Just get some CuteMx running and go. For people with slower modems don't worry, the fast ones are usually on all the time, and anyone with highspeed can get it easily. Just delete a few mp3's (its about 250 MEG) and you're good to go. As for everyone who says they can't play it 1) just try to download another version or 2) go to MSN.com and get media player 7, that worked fine for me. we CAN see the original in its uncut form AND screw the WB outta profit at the same time! I think I'm gonna watch it again right now...
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OK first off this moron goes on about the porn thing and then if you read on down the Jack ASS talks about how that Spidey Unlimited is the best thing ever!!!! COME ON I watched part of the first episode of that CRAP on Sat and it was almost as badly written as that new X-MEN piece of shit. So hey Fritz if you read this get a clue you fuckin idiot just as brain washed as the suits at WB asshole!!!
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Hello fellow Bat-fanatics. I too am picking my heart up off the floor after this disaster and injustice to The Bat. The irony is Jean McC. was the Fox executive who hired Paul Dini and Boyd Kirkland to adapt a Batman cartoon based on the style of the Frank Miller books/Tim Burton movie. She lost her job at Fox and it was the Batman team (Paul, Bruce, Alan B.,) who secured her the job at kidsWB. She apparently has learned how to be a Time-Warner Player. And why cut a film for the under five demographic when the show itself is rated Y7--THAT'S RIGHT: Y7! AS IN 7 YEARS OLD AND UP!! But as we know these things happen in the land of Warner Bros.----P.S. If you want to know why Burton was canned read the Rolling Stone cover story on Batman Returns (summer double issue 1992--hint: sadly it did involve the TOYS)------later-------m
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hey u stupid Americans!!! hahah Brittish People RULE@@@$@#%!!!!
anyways the cut versoin of this Bat man movie Rulz way better then the uncut, and star wars sux and Han Solo is Anakins Wife!!hahahahahah cya all losers
PS. Brittish people rule!! -
From what I read of ROTJk (my own semi-acronym, to distinguish it from ROTJedi), none of what was cut approached that level. It seemed only a bit worse than the PG-rated MASK OF THE PHANTASM.
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seems fandom-dot-com doesn't have much respect for the fans.
and that "mickey mouse/porn" comment? the writer shouldn't be writing this stuff if he doesn't know what he's talking about. (the sentence construction didn't even make sense.)
harry's comment about "two gun mickey" was telling. when was the last time you saw disney let that one out to the general public...or any of the other early mickey mouse cartoons when he was a real rascal instead of a corporate icon? those were supressed too, just like the original rotj, because someone decided more money could be made by keeping things sugar sweet and easy on the eye, turning what had been a sensation for all audiences (i'm talking mickey in the 30s here) into a straight-man character with little of its original appeal (bad boy donald duck took over what was left of that department).
rotj was not meant to be a childrens' babysitter...and it shouldn't have to be mutated into one now.
hell with wb. i've got the original thanks to a sympathetic video rental store owner i pestered last october. and i'll be warning anyone who'll listen not to buy this disemboweled version going on sale december 12.
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I am a forgiving man by nature but the WB has gone to far this time! How fucking dare they do an X-Men cartoon without the Wolverine voice of the Fox cartoon. Now they got some pussy who can't act scary for shit! Not to mention the fact that they completely jerked off on the timeline. Wolverine an X-Man before Cyclops and Jean Grey? > And whoever wanted to take out Nightcrawler's religon and give him that stupid apperance modifier as a crutch should have an industrial sized crowbar stuffed up his ass! And then twist it around while it's up there.
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That goes for you too, Jeb E. Zingo. What? Kids see another kid, who's been tortured and driven insane, shoot and kill the Joker, live to regret it for the rest of his life, and you think that they'll put on white makeup and go on killing sprees? You think they're gonna think "Boy, that was awesome! I'm gonna do that!"? Even if they did for the slightest second, they'll be shown that such violence has TERRIBLE consequences. Drake found it hard to even live with himself, knowing what he'd done. And, in this edited version, since Tim doesn't kill the Joker after all, then kids will miss the entire point as to why killing people is wrong. In the uncut version of the movie, Joker is seen as something that's been over-looked for too long by children; that he's an extreme menace and is NOTHING to admire, dispite the fact that he's hilariously funny. But now, the kiddies will see the Joker as this devious clown that doesn't really do anything too bad. They'll even feel sorry for the Joker for slipping in that puddle of water and getting himself electrocuted. The unedited version of Return of the Joker is STILL for kids, but it can be enjoyed by everyone else even after they've seen in 10 or 20 times. But now, the movie is full of so many plot-holes and "grey-areas," it can ONLY be enjoyed by audiences who are 5-10 years old, until they get as bored with it as the Land Before Time.
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The last report I read said something about a 76 minute version and a 70 minute version and also something about mysterious canadian something. I was in a Costco here in Canada and noticed the length on the VHS was 76 minutes and it was unrated.... should I pick this up? or will it be the same as the DVD one in a few weeks? sorry if this has been answered like 600 times.
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If your kid gets warped by seeing an image of someone getting shot in a context like a batman cartoon then your kid is a fucking idiot and will probably get warped from watching the news. If your kid kills someone because he watches something in a cartoon then he's an idiot and so are you. People are not empty shells that are just completely influenced by images. They are influenced by the context of that image. The WB and any other person who would like to censor material like this, which is completely tame, is a fucking idiot. Don't fuck it up for the rest of us,adult and child, who are intellgent enough to handle something ROTJ.
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Dec 07, 2000 1:06:26 AM CST
I just thought of a revolutionary idea that would solve all our
by fladnag
I was sitting up late studying for exams when it suddenly hit me. I know how to fix this entire thing. Now it won't be easy but if we get everyone involved then it just might work. Hear me out now. What if, just maybe, parents decided "hey maybe I should parent my kid instead of sticking him/her in front of a t.v. screen to watch whatever they damn well please, and if I find out that they have been watching something that I don't approve of then I'll call the company and bitch and bitch and bitch because that's the real American way to do things." WHY CAN'T PEOPLE TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY THESE DAYS. HOW FUCKING HARD IS IT? If a parent does not want their child watching something that they feel is violent then they shouldn't let them watch it. Wow, what a revolutionary concept. Say it with me now... RESPONSIBILITY. See I knew you could. Not only do I blame the parents of today's society for why there has to be a censored market for BB:ROTJ but because they've raised their kids solely by the media I also blame them for the likes of N'SYNC and all those crappy pop bands. Since when did selling your soul to business so you can buy junior a beemer on his/her 16th b-day become more important than actually spending time with the kid. I'll stop ranting now. I just hope that my cries for change will occur before the damage becomes irreversible.
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Steve Fritz is an idiot. My God, I feel myself being infected by such an empty and soulless comment. Did he even think about what he was saying. If he had he wouldn't have made it. Stupid people. You can't live with them and you can't order them to march into the sea so the intelligent people can divide up their stuff. Oh well, the individuals responsible for this will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. Go PJ.
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For some reason I think Timm had a knife being poked in his back while he said that. (@_@)
WB Suit: "Timm, say this or we'll really do some damage to you. [devilish grin]"
Now normally I'd stick up to a corporate entity when someone bashes them, but this situation is 100% different. The WB has gone too friggin' far.
I mean fuck, the only reason why kids do some crazy shit is because they either give in the fuckin' peer pressure (from dumb ass other kids), or they have parents who don't give a FUCK about what the hell their kids do. Cartoons aren't the root of the problem! My dad watched Looney Toons until his eyes bled, and I'm as sane and regular as the next person. God, if parents in general DID give a rats ass about what their kids do (like my dad did with me), then none of this would be a problem! Kids are easily manipulated, just scare the crap out of them with anti-smoking & anti-violence messages, and they'll be on the right path.
Seriously, I don't know hell who did it, but I want to find out who ever started the idiotic "cartoons are only for kids" thought pattern in society today. God, if it weren't for him, animation would be 500 times better. Probably better than anime. And we'd probably see this more often: http://www.nick15.com/images/donald.gif (Ah, good ol' Disney from the 40's.)
Second of all, how many of us remember what we watched when we were 5? Or at least, how many of us did anything that reflected what we watched when we were 5? Shit, I doubt anyone can. And I doubt that any 5 year old who's watch BB:ROTJ and repeat anything that happens.
And then that Fritz, I don't know who's cock he was smokin' when he said that (probably Mickey's), but that has got to be one of the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Violence = Porn? I'm sorry, but I never saw a dick in just about any other violent thing I ever saw, let along a fuckin' cartoon.
Now the thing that really gets me mad is how PC villians have become. The Joker'll look all happy and smiles, no wonder some kid would want to copy such a "sweet and adorable villian he is". Shit, I would have thought the bad guys would be SO bad and horrendus, they'd scare the shit out of kids enough to set them straight!
So what now.... cartoons can't do it, and live action can? What's stopping a shitty parent to sticking their 5 year old in front of some other live action movie? If you want to smeggin' censor cartoons, why not censor the fuckin' regular movies?! Kid'll still see them, cartoon or no cartoon!
Well I sure hope that by the time some 12 year old today (who grew up with violent as hell anime and shit) becomes a 40 year old suit at the WB, that dumb ass "cartoons are for kids" thinking will die. God, that stuff is really hurting cartoons. -
Does anyone have any crime records from Japan? As in... how many animated related crimes have happened over the past 10 to 20 years? How much greater is the crime rate there than here because of violent animation??
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Yeah, I have to chime in something here, not really aimed at any talkbacker or anything (and earning the title of "ramblings"). The episodes of DBZ or Gundam Wing that doesn't involve energy blasts, punches, kicks, (or in GW's case) lots and lots of guns being shot are fucking few and far between. A lot of motherfuckers have died violently (and come back to die again, in the case of DBZ) on those shows. The sexual tension on Tenchi Muyo somewhat disturbs me (for a show being aimed at kids). This is part of an afterschool line-up aimed at kids. No one bitches (except possibly anti-dubbers and people who say CN hacks the episodes to death). YET, because BB ISN'T an anime, it can't put in similar material(?). I wish I could come up with a good analogy to this notion... On the other side of the token: Was Toxic Avenger a film series for children? No? Then why a cartoon for saturday mornings aimed at kids? Was Robocop a film for kids? Then why a Robocop cartoon? Why did we see toys aimed at kids (T2 toys, Demolition Man toys, etc.) from movies that were R rated? Same Token: The Grinch movie, based on the classic cartoon, features the title character with his face in some ladys mamms., but this is a movie that kids will see! First Ninja Turtles movie was dark and as mean as hell compared to the cartoon, yet parents took their kids. The Rugrats movies have both been hunks of shit devoted (between moments of spiritual introspection and theological and social debate) to shit, booger, and piss jokes. I see and hear people who say they love anime because of strong stories and animation and hate american animation for having neither. True they'll give Gargoyles and the animated Primetime Fox shows their due on story, but that's neither here nor there. Now, we have an original animated production aimed at an american audience, with a popular icon, a strong story, good animation, and what happens? We cut it for its suitable for 5 year olds. Dammit... We are having entertainment dictated to us in the name of kids that can't even pronounce spagetti. This fear of creating even a rated for kids and an unrated version is damn near stupid. Why is it I'm reliving the scene in Comic Book Confidential where (IIRC) Gaines is talking to the Senate about horror comics and Wertham in my head?
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That interview sucked. WB suits probably edited that too!!! The idiot asked all the wrong questions. Fandom sucks!! And, it would not be the equivalent to Mickey Mouse doing porn, because it's out of his character, whereas the ROTJ is true to the Batman character. Any idiot kid who looks at this movie and then decides to go shoot somebody has the biggest jackass parents this side of Utah! The kind of parents who believe in time outs and don't believe in a good ol fashioned tail wupin!!! The kind of parents who's kids grow up to make pipe bombs in their basement and who walk into high schools and shoot up the place. I am an action junkie, and I've seen so many deaths and other gruesome acts that by WB standards, I should be a serial killer by now. But despite all that, I've never even been in a fight my whole life. Because I had parents who taught me the difference between fantasy and reality, between right and wrong. Why does WB feel the need to edit the obvious. You shouldn't kill anybody, period. It would be different if the scenes glorified the violence. But they don't, Evil had it's consequences. If you are a punk parent who believes that TV is a babysitter and your kid is a potential murderer, then don't buy the movie, it's very simple. Plop your kid in front of Sesame Street and go back to having sex with your sister.
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Just had to say that.
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I too felt like everyone else, that the cuts raped and distorted the integrity of the project. But then I watched the cut version and compared it to the uncut version adn I have to say I'm not as angry anymore! Chaging a few "kills" to "Ice" is understandable considering what channel this cartoon is shown on. And having the joker poison someone instead of shooting them, what's wrong with that..the person still dies and Joker killed them. And people getting pissed off when the entire movie Joker makes about disfiguring Robin is actually better that they don't show everything, it makes it that much more creepy. The basic message is still there, Joker is utterly evil and good triumphs in the end. I'm not saying an uncut version wouldn't be nice I'm just saying that it's not as bad as everyone else has made it out to be. Do the same thing I did, watch the uncut version and compare it to what was cut....
The only thing I think that should have remained was Joker being buried under Arkham by Batman and Batgirl.
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Dec 07, 2000 12:29:02 PM CST
Thanks Harry for laying down the stuff as it should be! We reall
by candyman_boo
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Everybody should see this movie the way its creator
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Dec 07, 2000 3:17:47 PM CST
Whoa whoa WHOA, fellas! Try not to tell any "BB:R.O.T.Joker" sp
by miracleman
Hey guys, I realize that some of you who are posting in this talkback are trying to make a point with your arguments (and valid ones at that), but please try not to type in any spoilers with your posts, okay? I haven't seen the movie yet, Uncut or otherwise, and I was suddenly caught offguard when I read a few talkbacks that had some potential spoilers in them. So please, if any of you guys want to post another talkback or if you haven't posted a talkback yet and you happen to read this, please don't put any spoilers in your posts. Thanks.
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i found where the batman beyond movie is online but i cant download it because all of the sites that have it require a password. I really want to see it uncut and if any of you guys can help me out with a password or a place that doesn't require one i would really appricate it. You can email me at Animulder@aol.com
Thank you!!! -
Well kids,
This looks like the final axe that the suits can drop on the brilliant minds of Timm, Dini & crew, as this is most likely the final Batman project that they will work on...
When will the realize that as much as this may "sell" to the under 5 (can you believe that? the under 5?) "demographic", that this is a story based on a character that is nearly ten times older than most of that demographic...
Kids may like Batman, but these are stories being told by men that love what they do, masters of their craft that have in the past 7+ years managed to effectively take those 40+ years of comic and animated incarnations of Batman and his friends and foes, and filter that product into what is arguably the GREATEST ANIMATED SERIES OF ALL TIME.
Batman Beyond was a place for growth and experimentation for Dini and Timm, and in my oppinion they did exactly that. Some episodes were very exciting and filled with fresh new ideas. Some were more standard-fare superhero stuff, but all of it excelled in terms of the medium that it existed in : an animated series told by a generation of people that loved animation and Batman, FOR a generation of like people.
It just so happens that the only place to do something like that is under the watchful eye of people that make their money selling to "demographics" of parents who don't take the time to pre-view what their children watch, yet will join in any attempt to censor or protest something like this just it gives them the gratification of feeling like an active parent. Honestly, how many parents sit down and watch Batman Beyond on weekdays with their children? There is PLENTY of suggestive, violent and aggressive behavior contained therein!
Well, I'm just pissed, I've been a fan of the entire catalog of Timm/Dini/Burnett Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond runs, and while there have been some stinkers, it's rare that the quality episodes so highly outnumber the bad ones...and with the release of Batman Beyond Return of the Joker, I was hoping that we'd have something to balance the Well told story of Mask of the Phantasam against the (in my opinion) almost un-watchable Sub-Zero...apparently we won't be getting that, hopefully it's still a fun trip back to the batcave, cause it's probably our last trip there for a good long time.
-Frankie -
Get real you bunch of geeks, this has nothing to do with "FAMILY VALUES" or "UNDERAGED CHILDREN"! IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY! America is capitalist. So WB is. Everybody in America loves and would love being oportunist to get money, 'cause money's never too much. So you really think this is about family values? Uh, no. Mothers that don't care about their children and just overpopulate the world and stick on the phone making gossip about their neighbours while their children watch WB and other shitty channels would ADORE to sue any of these multi-millionaire companies. Example: WB releases BBROTJ uncut-->these fuckin' mothers buy it for their children--->these children, who in this exact moment are playing Resident Evil2, Driver2 or some kind of shit like these get BBROTJ--->they see a gun. They listen cracking bones puching sounds. They get excited, get their father's gun and play with it until someone fires accidentaly and a kid dies.--->Angry mothers sue WB and earn gazillions of dollars enough to end their lives doing nothing else than farting and burping while making gossip of their neighbour. (Of course the gun stuff is just an example but something like that could happen). So, did you get it? If any shit like this happens, they won't be profiting. Could anyone tell them it is JUST A FUCKING CARTOON? This is going to be selled, not shown on the TV saturday morning! Any responsabilitie should be held by the parents, not by WB! Children should be raised by parents, not a TV. Look at this Mojo Jojo rumor, where is the freedom in this? People do what they want to and should expect the same from other people. I'm not saying kids should be raised in plastic bubbles, but parents should spend some time educating them and teaching them the principles of life, not just ignoring and saying "shut up kiddo". Oh yeah, and if WB thinks its audience is formed by under 4 children, they should only air shit like telettubies, blarney or any branwash like these then, and first of all not making series wich they know they will make adult fans like Superman or Batman, and instead show brand-new stuff so that "mature" people don't get so interested as in heroes they grew up reading comic books. I think WB could shove the BBROTJ video in their asses and give us a mature version so that greek and trohans get satisfied. I almost cried of anger while writing this message(I grew up reading Batman, I collected about 20 Batman the Animated series toys(the old season)) and I personally think its a character that deserves some realistic atitude. I'm not taking it seriously, and I know its just a cartoon but these freaks have gone too far.
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Hey, CuteMX rules. Get it there. Wanna make a VCD of it but can't...decoding the compressed audio isn't working with any software I load up. E-Mail ideas.
Thanks! We're all in this together... -
Yes, to answer HARRY_is_OBESE. The first episode's gun moment now makes a lot more sense.
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OK, this was funny at about 1 a.m. and I'm just trying to lighten the mood here, I'm not a racist or anything. Some friend and I were talking about this and we figured out a way to get the master of protest, Jesse Jackson, involved in this. The plan is summed up in one quote: "Who SAID the Joker was a WHITE man?!?" After all the Joker himself has said that he thinks of his past as "multiple choice" and DC was so ashamed that they had to paint his face white! Yeah, I know: not funny, but I needed a break form studying for finals.
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After all this has happened...does anybody think that Aranofksy and Miller have a chance in hell to create their true vision of Batman? I can't even fathom the heart attacks that those two could cause if they go crazy with their script. Of course maybe it'll be so cool that all the suits at WB will drop dead right there and they'll get to make it with no problems.
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Dec 08, 2000 2:48:42 AM CST
whoa, HARRY_is_OBESE brought up an amazingly good point (spoiler
by tall_boy
yeah, spoilers, skip. Anyway, really cool way to read into it. I always thought that Batman just felt disgusted with himself for pointing the gun because of having a gun kill his parents and he never used them himself. BUT if you throw the events of Return of the Joker into context it totally adds more to the scene. Maybe after Tim killed the Joker, Bats disbanded his team, and maybe hung it up himself for awhile, but tried with the new batsuit but it didn't work out. seeing the gun in his hands made him flashback to Tim with the Joker (a major experience to be sure) and after that he told himself "Never Again." Which is a really cool way to read it. Probably not intended but still nifty nonetheless. If this is the last animated Bat story we see out of the Dini/Timm team, its a great way to go out. (unedited, that is...)
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A few have asked us what Batman would do . . . Batman is a vigilante, not a cop, not a lawyer. He stands for justice, not the letter of the law. In this case, I think justice is better served by facilitating the release of the original, uncut version of ROTJ.
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That's right kiddies! Your favorite Aunty has the perfect stocking stuffer this holiday season: complete, uncut copies from the official WB screener! How much? A measly $30 + $5 S&H. Email auntywb@yahoo.com for all the details...
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Dec 08, 2000 2:23:06 PM CST
I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT(a.k.a. the uncut BB:ROTJ), AND THOSE RESPO
by xthecrovvx
OK...bear with me here while i state something that might raise a couple o brows....a VERY generous TBer from CA(id rather not mention his name, lest a horde of batfans beg him for a copy) sent me a CD with the AVI of Batman Beyond:ROTJ for my perusal....and after seeing it...well...quite frankly...I found it better than THE LAST THREE LIVE ACTION BATMAN FLICKS....the storytelling here is as strong as it could ever be...and yea, Terry McGinnis doesnt get his ass kicked for once!! Not that i had anything against him in the cartoon...but lets face it...he kinda gets plastered sometimes.... but here, he gets his moments in the sun, finally...and we see the beginnings of what could be a great incarnation of the Bat after all. I mean, seeing those final seconds, with Terry standing above the buildings...i got that same chill that i got watching the last scene of the original live action Batman, with Bat-Keaton standing at the rooftops, with the signal bright in the background....and in the end, Terry actually found the true way to give the Joker defeat, something not even Bruce Wayne could really do....and the pseudo-family reunion between Barbara Gordon and Tim Drake was a wonderful moment, bringing the old age of the Bat to a true close....which is what makes the cuts even harder to swallow now than ever...before it was just a case of the suits doing the unnecessary, but it should be good anyway....WRONG...after seeing the wretched truth for myself, i can tell you, THESE CUTS HURT THE MOVIE!! Tim Drake killing the Joker--crucial. The Joker electrocuting and feeding Tim Drake the drugs to make him "Joker Jr."--crucial. The Joker being dead and buried beneath Arkham--CRUCIAL AS HELL! Now, some might say "Oh, but what about the children?" OK, I'll bite a little there: One of the shooting scenes (The shooting of Bonk and the "And Bonk?....oh yeah...dead...anyways..." line) is a little sick for young eyes...but lets face it...when youre dealing with a psychopathic character, psychopaths will do sick stuff....But as far as the story is concerned, its necessary, and perhaps even BETTER for kids to see it...because when kids see what this bastard is fully capable of, and he gets his just desserts, its right...in the past of the series, Hammill's Joker has almost always been a source of wacky humor mostly...but regardless, the Batman was there to shut him down whenever he goofed....and in the end Terry figures out why...i dont wanna spoil why, but know its a lesson kids should learn....about attention-getting tactics....and for us adults, its a HUGE look into the psyche of the Clown Prince....this is why the bastards at the WB need to wake up....you cant sacrifice storytelling just to make things nice and PC...think we're over the deep end? Well, let me put it in other terms...how cuts like these affect stories....Superman:The Movie--Lois Lane no longer gets buried alive, but slips on a rock getting out of our car.... The Empire Strikes Back--Luke Skywalker no longer loses a hand when struck with Vaders lightsaber, but recieves a rather nasty sunburn.....additional cuts: Tauntaun is no longer cut open to warm Luke and Han in the cold, due to animal cruelty laws, but make friends with the poor tired creature, as Pikachu chitters happily..... Beauty and the Beast--Beast no longer stabbed in back by Gaston, but disabled by a lethal hangnail in one of his claws.... Fantasia--Night on Bald Mountain sequence altered...now entitled "A Happy Happy Day in Sunnyvale"..all demons and ghost replaced by Sesame Street Characters..... Jesus Christ Superstar--Judas no longer goes mad and hangs himself, but instead seeks the counsel of a good psychiatrist, sets himself up in a nice third floor apt in New Jerusalem with a fern and Angora cat...keeps heavy correspondance with grieving Mary Magdalene, helping her find "closure on that whole Christ thing".....get my point? good....Revolution is my name...
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Yes, I think being on the Cartoon Network will give JLA a bit more latitude. After all, they air Dragonball Z which is a pretty violent cartoon at times, and although a bit of blood is edited out, there is still quite a bit of it when the characters are badly beaten up. In general, CN is a lot less worried about "scarring" (we're not going to scar kids with a little violence...i never blew up my school after years of violent toons) our future generations.
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Dec 09, 2000 3:51:01 AM CST
Hey! I've Got A Question For Those Of You Who Have Already Seen
by cowblaster
(The subject line is really long because I wanted people to find it in the un-ordered TalkBacks). Where did Batman get the name "Jolly Jack" from? I've seen the movie at least 7 times now, and it still seems to me that Batman just hoped into the Batmobile, pulled the name "Jolly Jack" out of thin air, and ran it through the computer. Where did he get it?!
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and it's not like "seeing TWO-GUN MICKEY... a 1934 Mickey Mouse cartoon where Mickey Mouse is a gunslinger that shoot Peg Leg Pete and drinks beer", It's like Mickey Mouse actually being funny.
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The issue is why WB is too good to put out an unedited version of BB. The bs version is weak, it sounds ridiculous (Joker slips on water!) and it masks reality to kids for some stupid reason. Tv and movies are different things, especially if parents can choose between edited and unedited versions. Just because parents don't care enough to take responsibility, our world has to see pathetic cut films. The violence isn't the problem, responsible parents prevent violence and many other things. Having kids be sheltered up until high school fucks with their heads, like, I used to watch just typical cartoon shit, and now, I see girls I knew getting pregnant at 16, with moms who don't give a fuck if her kid is fucking or not, condom or not. I dunno what I'm trying to say!
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I want everyone to calm down for a second. No really, breath deeply cause I'm gonna take you back with me into my childhood as I remeber it....Ready? OK. Imagine when you were a kid. No seriously, think of what you thought about in a matter-of-fact type of way. I loved transformers as a kid. They were cool beyond any other cartoon I remember from my youth. At the tender age of 5 I saw the Transformers movie. If you haven't seen it, rent it now and skip the rest of my post. At the end Optimus Prime dies. He dies!?! HE DIES!?!?!? Now my reaction was one of pain as I saw Optimus....well... you've seen it. No am I any worse off for it. No. Wanna know why? Because my parents had allready given me the "death talk". I wasn't warped. I wasn't traumatized for life. It just made me appreciate sacrifice: for ideas, for love, for justice, for everything one holds dear. This movie(RotJ)...in the hands of a capable parent could be an opportunity for a lesson in the reality of the world. Not a harsh one, just truthfull. Because the true things that hurt children and the adults they later become is a misleading notion that the world is sugar-coated. In that effect RotJ will never be able to cause the type of harm that a show like Barney or CareBears can. This act by the WB was not just the death of an artistic vision, but the final nail in the coffin suggesting that TV, games, movies, etc. are what's wrong with America. No!! I refuse to believe that the guiding hand of my mother and father had nothing to do with who I am today. I refuse to believe that if I watched certain cartoons I would be a mass murderer today. And I absolutly cannnot except the idea that the media could have done a better job then love, understanding and patience. The Wb are closed-minded bean-counters who should wake up and relize what they are doing. Fans will only take so much abuse before they take they're "business" elsewhere.
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I just saw the uncut version and I have to say the film was AMAZING! I watched it on a computer and despite the small viewing screen everything was extremely clear. The animation is some of the best I
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Why wasn
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The road to a finished animated project is a long, winding, and arduous path (and I know this because I work on an animated show). From the very first draft until final editing EVERY STEP of the project is scrutinized, revised, checked, and re-checked through every relevant department of a company. Everyone gets to see what
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The following was posted at DVD.IGN.com by Your DVD Editor on Oct 4th at:
http://dvd.ign.com/previews/745.html
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After yesterday's long rant about my rights as an adult to watch whatever I want, Warner Bros. finally returned my calls to comment about this matter, and assured me that the movie is in fact not being altered or toned down.
"When we saw the quality of the image, which was a lot better than we expected, we pushed it back into the holiday season to avoid its being perceived as a Halloween product," Warner PR rep Josh Sabarra told me.
I asked him if the features on the disc are being changed and he said, "they may be adding stuff to it, but I don't know for sure."
And finally I explained that there is great concern that the movie is being toned down for a kiddie audience and he said, "No. We've had the Batman Beyond property for a number of years, we know what it is and there's no need to mess with it."
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Well it -
Through somebodys kind efforts, I was able to get the full, UNCUT "Return of the Joker" film burned onto a CD for FREE. I kept $20 PLUS dollars in my pocket since I REFUSED to shell out any money in support for the horrible censoring that was done to this animated masterpiece. Not only did I get this for free, but I enjoyed the music so much, I went and downloaded the ENTIRE soundtrack album off of Napster, FOR FREE!! Sorry Warner Bros. but your not getting dime one from me in any way, shape or form regarding this film, which is EXTREMELY unfortunate because I'm a huge fan of the show and of Bruce Timms work(his future Joker design is his BEST yet), and would love to show my support for thier efforts, but feel like my hands are tied because I DO NOT support the cuts Warner Bros. have made.
After watching the film over and over again, I am continually amazed at the voice performance turned in by Mark Hamill. He has brought the Joker to life over the years that the Batman series has endured, but I think it all came to fruition in "Return of the Joker".**Spoilers** When the flashback sequence hits in the film, and Joker has shown Batman what he has done to poor Tim Drake, then tells him he knows his secrets(that he is indeed Batman) he calls Bruce a "Boy in a playsuit, crying for Mommy and Daddy" then says "It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic......Oh, what the heck...I'll laugh anyway!!" Hearing that line, followed by the Jokers maniacal laugh
brings chills to my spine everytime I see the scene, and it's in no small part to the genius and talent that Mark Hamill has brought to this character. It would be a real crime if he's not recognized in some way for his vocal work in this film. The Emmy awards commitee will hopefully screen this movie, sit up and take notice and give this man an award he truly deserves. "Return of the Joker" also outshines in the animation. It's some of the best work I've seen in an animated film in a LONG time,(that includes theatrical releases as well!!) and consistent all the way through. As an artist myself I can truly appreciate the work that went into this project, and every frame of this film resonates with beautifully designed backgrounds and heart stopping animation. All animated films should raise the bar and hope to aspire with what was accomplished in this film. The effects explosions were easily some of the best effects animation I've seen as well.
As with Agent23, I too was floored by the cuts made to the film. It runs about 113 minutes including credits...Warners made 27 cuts to film, bringing it down to 76 minutes. Whole sequences of animation where cut, as WELL as lines of dialogue and the outcome is disasterous!(if you'd like to see what cuts were made to the film, go to www.ignfilmforce.com, it helps if you've seen the original version though.) It completely waters down the Joker AND the impact of the film. This character is a madman, a pychopath, and I can't think of the last time somebody has succesfully captured that frightening insanity since Alan Moores "The Killing Joke".
It just makes me shake my head in disgust when all that Warner Bros. had to do was print a warning label onto the packaging of the DVD/VHS of "ROTJ" saying "Not suitable for children under the age of 5, PARENTAL SUPERVISION RECOMMENDED"
You've dropped the ball on this one Warners......Oh well...I've already seen and heard, added this fine film to my collection...at no cost to myself.
Here's hoping that someday Warner Bros. will see fit to restore the ORIGINAL version of this film, and keep the artistic integrity that Bruce Timm and his crew have brought to, without a doubt THE BEST animated Batman movie to date. -
Dec 10, 2000 2:09:51 PM CST
YOU KNOW WHAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF? ITS THE FACT THAT PARENTS WO
by white pony
They buy stuff like the land befor time part 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. The only way the wb will learn is if WE DONT BUY IT!!! All you heartless fan fucks will bitch and bitch but you wont have the balls to just not buy it. And thats why the wb does not give a fuck what you think,they dont respect you becouse your stooopid. the credo on all the plaqes on all the walls at wb hq say "the'll buy couse it has batman written on it...period!"And sad to say your gonna prove them right cuz on dec.12 your gonna drag your FAT VIRGIN ass out of your parents basement and wait in line to pay money to have the corporate intity that is the wb FUCK YOU IN THE EYE SOCKET!!! YOU HAVE THE POWER TO HIT THEM WHERE IT HURTS THIS TIME PEOPLE JUST DONT FUCKING BUY IT!!!!...then they will know your not an idiot, who knows ,they might start to respect you,hell,they might even listen to you....but your gonna buy it .......
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Hit 'em where it hurts! I hope someone gets fired over this.Will we ever know how many pirated copies circulate?
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Okay, it's the Sunday night after BNAT2, and I'm back home. I fortunately "bought an unedited copy in New York" and witnessed the unbridled genius that is Return of the Joker. If WB had brain one in that HUGE mellon sittin' on top'a their shoulders, they would give Timm and co. free reign. They seem to be the only ones who can consistently nail the Batman "I don't know what" as the French say. Rise up, fellow Geeks, and make our voices heard!
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Just allow me to say (and I'm sure everyone else here will agree with me) SIT DOWN AND SHUT THE HELL UP! No one is going to buy your fucking POS bootleg for $30! I can download it off CuteMX! If I get another of your e-mail spam I'm gonna personally kick your ass!
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When I was younger, my parent's hadn't given me the death talk, but Transformers: The Movie was the first movie we rented when they first got their video card at the local grocery store. We all sat down and watched it together and at the scene when Optimus died, I, of course, started to cry. At that point my parents stopped the video and asked me if I was alright. It was at that point that they explained that Optimus wasn't a real person, and he wasn't really dead. They told me that people die all of the time and it isn't something to be sad over. It was after that, they turned the video back on and we finished watching it. You see, my parents stepped up to the plate and took responsibility, unlike much of today's parents. I mean, ooh...I'm sorry people, bear with me, I've been wanting to sound off on this travesty for months. Batman Beyond IS a violent show. It doesn't make any apologies for that. You know, I could understand if WB was editing it because they had put the KidsWB! label on it like they did with the Pokemon movies, but they didn't. It isn't even classified on most web site stores (such as Amazon.com) as a Kids/Family flick. It is classified as simply animation. I would like to think that we as Americans had evolved past thinking that Animation was for children with the advent of The Simpsons. I mean adults watch that and it isn't Fritz the Cat from the animated porn days. (Yes, there really was a porn cartoon called Fritz the Cat, heehee.) Animation has evolved into a medium to tell complex stories. I mean, look at what was done with Gargoyles, a Disney show. That show was violent, and showed blood, but every bit of violence served a purpose. I'm sure that when Mr. Dini wrote BB:ROTJ, the violence in his screenplay had meaning. What I don't understand is, Warner Bros. had to okay a shooting script before the animators could take over, so why, at Zero Hour, did they get scared enough to pull the finished product? Gore. Simply put. I mean, this guy is waging war on what he deems violence in children's programming and video games. Someone needs to tell him, Mr. Gore, the people of America are tired of being told what to watch because a group of parents who wanted to have children refuse to take responsibility for what they are watching. Then when he tries to rebut, give him the adolecent crime rate from Japan where violent animation is a way of life...I think he would find that someone other than the media will have to be blamed for the children of America...try Mr. Rogers.
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I saw an ad for the Batman Beyond movie in a magazine and it touted the DVD release by saying it contained "deleted scenes" and a director's commentary. Hmmm... I wonder what the deleted scenes will contain? Will it be the hacked scenes that we all have enjoyed in the real version of the movie? Will the commentary have any bits like "well, at this point, we REALLY wanted Joker to..."? Or will it be more WB drivel? Why are they releasing a DVD with deleted scenes and commentary, anyway? It is not like their target audience of 5 year olds will want either....hurm...
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Dec 11, 2000 2:51:22 PM CST
transformers: more than children's eyes should meet ?????
by o.g. one-kennobi
O.K. Here I am I just lost my grandmother who was for all intents and purposes my mother as she brought me up. I found her body and it's kinda fucked with my head ya know? Anyways when you lose someone it's funny how everything you look at or see reminds you, in one way or another of the person you lost. I was sitting here fuming over the cuts from return of the joker. I've seen the original cut, read the screenplay, and the other day a friend of mine that still works at my old video store ganked me a copy of the cut version on tape { dvd had not arrived yet } You know the cut version as a whole wasn't bad, it wasn't as full of loopholes as I thought it would be. It didn't match up to the original cut mind you but if i saw it cut for the first time it would have been like a two-part episode to me nothing special. It should have had a theatrical run. My point about the transformers movie which I'm watching on dvd right now is this, how the hell did i grow up with this and batman is considered violent ? Within the first ten minutes of the film like ten autobots are totally wasted { ironhide was straight up executed by megatron with a cool p.o.v. shot of megatron's arm-cannon} point is my generation, mind you I'm only 22, got thru the eighties and nineties without going duck-hunting in public schools. So fuck blaming the media for violence and real life tragedy. And most of all fuck the media for taking the blame for shit like that. There was a time in the fifties when your name in the same sentence as communism would blacklist you from film, all other forms of media, friends, contacts And not only that being associated with the said accused assured you the same fate.
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Ok, so the video is coming out on Tuesday, the official street date. I hate having to wait this long, but Dini and Timm or WB! always make us wait. Anyone else remember waiting longer to get the, then, pushed back "Sub-Zero"? I'm debating about getting BBTROTJ at Suncoast where I know I can obtain a copy or wait and see if it releases on time at a department store for less (ie., Target, Walmart.)
I personally am not going to miss out on buying an original copy, because that's how WB will release it ONLY and I'll have a video in better quality than I can get off of TV . I realize many are going to boycott hoping or expecting to get an unedited version, but I say don't hold your breath. Has anyone ever seen an unedited Batman video before? Or some other WB made cartoon? Nope. Only the anime folks do that stuff. Just record it off of TV if you're not going to buy the only one WB will release, you'll make your point and it won't cost you. Why shell out all kinds of money for a bootleg? Anyway, buy the screenplay and you'll get the BIGGER picture anyway. It's got stuff in it the unedited one evidentally didn't get.
I think what gets my blood boiling is that Dini and Timm should have expected KidsWB to interfere or known better having had years of experience in the animation industry. Frankly, I don't understand the idea of moving to Cartoon Network, the JLA is still a WB property. To kidify Batman is always in the contract, right? If those guys want to push the envelope of Batman go into comics more often--I implore them to do so!--however, they know they'll wind up making less money and do a wonderful Elseworlds story like I know they would that no editor can revoke.
It seems creators of late are not reading the fine print. For example, when a creator like Alan Moore decides to not suport Watchmen figures at the last minute, he might recall he signed something called a contract stipulating he will not get any royalties for his (and Gibbon's) creations, more or less. Dini and Timm: you guys should have known WB planned to air your movie at some point! They always have, in parts, in the past so why would you think they wouldn't now?
To sum up, I think Dini and Timm are two of the finest creators of today, perhaps their own inventions and creations will happen with less executive hassles. -
. . . they're not the butchered stuff from the movie. Lllloooonnng ago, before any of this started, it was announced that the DVD would have unfinished scenes that were cut from the film, but added color to the story nonetheless. One in particular was where Bruce Wayne re-visits Arkam after 40 years and breaks-down (I think). The scenes were described as being unfinished, "lyca-reel" form. . . with sound, dialoge, and music, but the animation would be incomplete. I doubt Warner Brothers would add the butchered scenes into this category, seeing as how they were originally IN the final cut, and by doing so, they'd still be subjecting young viewers to these scenes.
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FeRrET here:
I just returned from Suncoast where I picked up my copy of Batman Beyond:
Return Of the Joker, DVD.
Both the VHS and DVD read a running time of 76 min. which was the stated
'original' running time without the cuts. The DVD also features a 'deleted
scenes' section.
Once I am done watching the DVD tonight I will make a full report on weather
I noticed any of the reported cuts have been actually made.
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Wow!
Excellent movie. I don't think Batman fans will be disappointed upon seeing the video that came out today. I avoided as much as I could of spoilers and so on. Now, I can read the screenplay I bought a LONG time ago and not worry about cheating myself. I also can read the details that folks are alleging got cut, hard to believe it was that big of a deal as this one was enjoyable enough.
Anyway as I have said before, for those purists who are boycotting, I'd suggest they just watch it on TV than not see it all.
Man do I hate the KidsWB lineup.
Bring back the BAT!!!! -
I just got done watching the DVD, and let me tell you, it was more watered down then the Saturday morning cartoon. The longest fight is about 3 punches. The first action sequence is so cut up, bad guys just end up on the floor with no explanation. The new animation sucks. The Joker death scene has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever scene. The dialog changes sound about as well done as a weekend showing of Beverly Hills Cop on TNT. The extras sucked. The commentary never talked about the scenes that were cut, it always talks around them, maybe about the animation or the sound. The deleted scenes were freakin story boards put to dialog. Everything that made the movie what it was has been raped from it. I would have rather they not have released it at all, and my uncut little CuteMX version and me would have lived happily ever after. Warner Brothers really screwed over the fans on this on. If this were a two parter on Saturday, I would have thought the Gothem Golem episode was better. If anybody thinks the cuts didn't ruin this movie, then they're wrong!!!!!!!
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email: nightwing_38116@yahoo.com
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Just saw the thing on tape. Sigh. Damned edits. Sigh. WB needs to get a spine, and soon. SIGH. If this is the level of superheroing we can expect from them from now on, then perhaps it's a good thing that Bruce Timm's Justice League is going to be (hopefully) developed over at Cartoon Network.
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Jeb E. Zingo, you obviously have no respect for the intelligence of children, thinking they are clean slates and will go off and kill everyone if they are subjected to any violence whatsoever. christ, it's people like you that give humanity a bad name...
as for sokitome and fladnaG, you guys have it goin' on. preach it bruthas. when i rule the world, man... -
Dec 13, 2000 9:59:51 AM CST
the cuts really sucked because...(spoilers? at this date?)
by the killer-goat
a majority of them had little reason to be edited.
When I had mentioned to other people who'd seen the uncut version about the cuts in the final, many were stunned at the particular shots that the WB team edited out, because to them the most shocking part was Robin's disfigurement. THAT was the heavy tragedy, how it effected his, Batgirl's and Batman's minds. THAT was the scene they all thought would be the most troubling for children, We all agreed that even the way Joker offs Bonk was an acceptable edit, but why slash so much of the well-animated fist-fighting, blood stains on Joker and Bats, or even Bruce Wayne slicing off a MANIKIN'S head (Two-face) for chrissakes???
I don't agree with the changes to the direct-killing scenes, but if they allowed the movie to be released, I can live with it. But so many of the other scnenes that showed great action without death were cut for no apparent reasons.
As others have said here before, WB sure did cow down under pressure, which leaves them 35 years worth of animation and family shows in storage to back and edit if this is reflection of their "anti-violent" policies. Posers. -
Hi,
This is a note to all those considering the purchase of the uncut Batman Beyond: ROTJ video from Michael Reese, who goes by the name "Aunty". His email address is auntywb@yahoo.com and his other address is mr3film@earthlink.net.
Aunty is charging $35 for this video. I know alot of people are outraged that people are charging high prices for this video..but for me..I need this video and I needed in good quality and "aunty" posted an ad in the Ain't It Cool talkbacks offering videos made direct from the original promo screener tape that was sent out to retailers and reviewers this past summer. I immediately sent payment..and low and behold..I got the video. "Aunty" had the goods and delivered in a timely fashion.
However my praise of "aunty" ends there. I popped in the video immediately as I have been dying to see this film in its original context since the film was announced almost a year ago. "Aunty" had stated that there we minor flaws in the video, mainly the very beginning was cut and there was a "glitch" at the end of the tape. No problem for me..I knew that going in. What I was not told was that the audio would be filled with a "crackling" sound throughout the ENTIRE film! The sound is most prominent in the first 10 minutes and the last 5 minutes of the tape, but it is there throughout the duration of the film. I tried it on three different VCRs with the same outcome. I had to switch the audio over to mono to tone down the cracking and popping, but even that only helped a little.
Alright, so what would anyone do if they got a video like this? You would ask for a replacement right? Well thats what I did. I sent him an email this morning explaining the audio problem. I simply asked for a replacement and even offered to send a new blank tape and money for postage. Here is the reply I got back:
"II'm glad you got the tape OK. I'm dreadfully sorry
about the sound distortion, but I don't think there's
much I can do to to satisfy you. (The dv copy itself
is apparently wearing down, perhaps, I'm not sure...)
I did not have the time to check all of the tapes that
I made, but most sounded fine to me. I can offer a
replacement, but I'm afraid I'd have to charge you the
full price again. I don't want tapes coming back to me
because I don't want to give out my home address. (The
same reason I'm not accepting money orders)
Unfortunately I sold the actual screener a while back,
so that is not an option either. I don't want any
disgruntled customers out there, but I hope you
understand. Let me know if there's anything else I can
do...
Sincerely,
-Aunty"
So basically the wants me to send him another $35 for a replacement tape. I again emailed him back and politely told him that I wasn't going to pay another $35 for another tape. I told him it was only fair that he send me a replacement tape. Here is what he replied:
"You missed the point: I don't think ANY new copy is
going to be BETTER than the one I already sent you.
And really, a few pops and hisses? There are worse
problems that could happen. As far as guarantees go, I
only promised a good picture, with no guarantees about
sound. And how do I know you're not just scamming for
another tape? It's a quandry, I admit, but I'm afraid
we're at an impasse. I hope there's no hard
feelings..."
So now he is basically saying "screw you". He promised a good picture..said nothing about the sound. Then he has the balls to claim that I am "scamming" him for another tape! Why the hell would I be "scamming for another tape? If I wanted to make a copy of the one he sent, I would do so...all I wanted was a replacement.
So my tone in my response was not as pleasant. I basically said that the tape he sent was defective and he owed me a replacement. I told him if he would not agree to my terms (which were very reasonable) that I would inform those on the talk backs and those on his mailing list about what kind of guy this is...and what kind of tape he is sending out for $35. He didn't even use a good blank..he uses a standard grade JVC blank tape.
His last reply was simply this:
"I'm sorry, but no dice. Have a nice life...
-Aunty"
So he basically said..screw you and drop dead..I got your money. I am extremely disappointed. I vowed not to give Warner Bros. my money for the butchered version. I knew my only alternative was to deal with bootlegged copies, so I coughed up the $35 for "aunty's" tape and it turned out to be defective. He doesn't have the courtesy to send me a replacement tape or dare I say refund my money. Now what can I do? I can't afford to pay another bootlegger upwards of $50 for another copy. I'm just royally screwed.
I'm sorry for the length of this, I know most don't care...but I wanted to warn those that were considering sending this guy $35. Don't do it...buy one off Ebay or look in a newsgroup or something. This guy is a real asshole, and I'm sure my tape wasn't the only one that was defective. So consider this a rather lenghty warning.
Sincerely,
Tom -
That's it, that's all I have to say. For those wondering why I've said this, look no further than his report on this page. Than, wonder no more.
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...and I regret that I ever did business with him. He knew full well what it was that he was purchasing: a bootleg tape. By the very definition a bootleg is NOT a studio release. Therefore, it is NOT expected to be in PERFECT condition. As even Tom admits, the tape is the REAL DEAL! It's the UNCUT version of the film! And I FULLY disclosed to him and every other buyer about the defects in the transfer. (Ever hear the phrase, "caveat emptor", Tommy?)He's also NOT buying from Tower Video: there is NO return policy! (Cripes, he could have made a hundred copies already; Please!) And I'm not giving my home address to him, WB, or the FBI. (That's why I'm not accepting money orders, or checks, either!) Finally, let me add that I'm NOT a pro at this type of thing. Did I want to make some money? Sure! Is it a perfect tape? Absolutely NOT! (But it IS very good!) Do I want to screw people? HELL, NO!! Is it the uncut version of BB:ROTJ? DEFINITELY! Is it a viewable tape? You better believe it! Has ANYONE besides TOM BRENNAN comPlained about the tapes I've sold to them? Not a SINGLE one! (Everyone else thanked me for the time and effort, Tommy!) Am I making a fortune off of this enterprise? I haven't quit my day job! For those of you who have purchased a tape from me, feel free to add your honest opinion to the discussion. I welcome it! As for you Tom: stop your whining. You got EVERYTHING I promised you...
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Well,
If you need any further proof of what kind of a person you are dealing with...I think Michael Reese/Aunty or Mikey (as I like to call him) proved himself to be the asshole I described him to be with his last post. His lack of intelligence and common understanding for how to treat people who send him money is evident.
I know you people probably couldn't care less about this issue..but I just had to respond. This won't be an ongoing thread I promise. Although I'm sure Mikey will most likely follow this up with yet another witless response. A few people have emailed me thanking me for my warning and have let me know that they will not be sending "aunty"/Mikey their $35. And that was the whole point..if I can take money out of this guy's pocket and prevent him from profiting on this video in anyway..I feel I did a service.
He claims that I was a pain in the ass from the beggining..I was nothing but courteous and nice to him in my emails up until the point where he basically said "screw you". I guess you are a pain in the ass to ask about the quality of a tape before you blindly send money to a stranger, and I guess I'm an asshole for wanting a replacement when I receive a defective tape that is literally unviewable.
He also states that he's sorry he did business with me...well I bet he is!!! Because now I am taking business away from him! And rightfully so!! Lets all give a big "awwwwwww" for poor Mikey..who didn't make the kind of cash he was expecting.
He claims I knew what I was getting and that couldn't be further from the truth. He originally stated that the tape starts late and that there was a "glitch" towards the end. Ok, so the guy isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch and can't even make a video copy correctly, but ok..nobody is perfect right? That was the only thing he warned me about...he said nothing that the audio would be shit and littered with cracks, buzz's and hiss's throughout the entire film! So I guess if someone claims the video is excellent and mentions nothing about the audio..that must mean the audio is crap.
Sure..that makes sense. All I asked for was a replacement...he doesn't want his address given out (although I'll have it tomorrow)..fine..I would have gladly paid $5 for tape and postage through paydirect, but .."no dice..have a nice life." What a guy...Just the sort of guy you want to send $35 to right? I know we are talking about a bootleg tape here...but is fair business out of the question?
Yes this guy has the uncut version, but so do alot of other bootleggers. Do you know the real reason this pisses me off so much? Because if he had advertised on a bootleg newsgroup or Ebay I probably wouldn't have taken it this far. The fact is he advertised on Aint It Cool News. This is the place that film lovers and geeks alike go to read the inside scoop on anything and everything entertainment. I'm not a regular poster in the talk back section, but I assume most people there are like me...fans, not just any kind of fans, but diehard fans. Chances are if you go to that site..we all love the same things. So Harry Knowles was posting information regarding the Batman Beyond massacre, and Mikey decided to capitalize on this and sell it to people wanting it at $35 a pop. You know what..it bothered me a little that a guy posting on this site would decide to rape fans for $35 when he could have easily charged the cost of a tape and postage and tack on a small profit. He didn't..but thats fine, I sent him his $35. He tried to come off as a savior to all fans wanting the uncut release..but people aren't stupid..this guy was out to make a profit. And yes, selling a tape that cost him roughly $2.50 per tape at $35 IS a profit! I don't care how many he sold. I wasn't mad when I popped in the tape and heard these loud cracks and buzz's in the audio of the tape..this stuff happens. But the reaction(s) I got from this asshole (see my previous post) when I requested a replacement copy was simply unprofessional, uncalled for and plain rude. I would expect more from a reader of Aint It Cool News, common courtesy for one, respect for fellow fans for another. But you can negate the last part, its obvious Mikey is not a fan...but a greedy individual looking to capitalize on the unfortunate nature of the release of the film.
Its funny how ole Mikey just missed the entire point of my emails to him. Mikey..it wasn't an issue of quality so much as it was an issue of common courtesy. It was an issue of decency that I thought one person would have for another even if it was just in the realm of a polite and sincere email to someone who sent you $35 for a bootlegged tape that turned out to be defective. I guess they do things differently down in Louisiana.
It doesn't look like many people are biting at Mikey's offers...he's been peddling this tape for three weeks now and all he got were 10 sales out of it. Although Mikey pleaded for people to give his crap video praise...I have not heard from one person who said they were satisfied or heard from anyone backing this guy up. (Although having said that expect Mikey to post here under an anonymous name singing his praises)
Now I doubt you smart people would really still actually consider sending this idiot $35, but if you are I implore you to look elsewhere..Hey..if you really need his version..I'll provide it for free! I have a pretty good setup and unlike Mikey..I can make a dub of a video without fucking it up. Of course..I'll mention up front (unlike Mikey)...THE SOUND QUALITY SUCKS!
Again..sorry for the rant ...but I wanted to say my piece..its 2am and I have nothing better to do anyway..
Lets all await Mikey's brilliant response with bated breath....
-Tom
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Just a final thought on this whole fiasco with Tom Brennan. For anyone who does business with him: watch out! If he's dis-satisfied in the least he will threaten you with physical violence and legal prosecution. (Oh, you should read the vindictive tripe he's been sending me!) He plays the part of the martyr very well on this forum but the fact is, he's a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum. I maintain that I sold him a very watchable tape in the exact condition that I promised. I never promised you a rose garden, Tommy...
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Dec 19, 2000 11:05:45 AM CST
Tom Brennan is a narc, a blackmailer and (in all probability) a
by aunty-wb
It's all true! (Well, I'm not sure about the last part, but he probably does like to "play" with little boys) Here's what I'm positive of: He has informed me that not only will he be giving my name to the FBI and WHV, but that he will also be giving them the names of EVERY person on the BB:ROTJ group email that he has been using to spread his diatribes of dis-information about me. He says he will not do this if I refund his money to him. Unfortunately, I do not respond well to threats and blackmail, so we will see if Tommy boy will actually perform this heinous and cowardly act that he has proposed. I feel terrible about this, guys, SINCERELY! I never wanted to cause any bad feelings when I started this enterprise and I certainly didn't want to get on the bad side of a psycho. Hopefully, Tom will realize the error of his ways and stop the insanity that he has planned... (and leave those little boys alone, too!)
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While it is true I will be reporting Mr. Michael Reese to WHV and others...I WILL NOT be giving any names or emails of anyone on his mailing list or any other list. I told him to refund my money or I would report him, thats true; and I fell justified in doing so. After all, evil must be punished. I also told him that I have a few people that have emailed me with their disgust for "aunty" and that they are ready to back me up in my actions if need be. Never once did I say that I would be giving the names or emails of people from his mailing list to WHV. That is just another one of his lies. The only person in trouble here is Michael. Boy do people hate you Michael, you should see the emails I am getting. You will be taught a valuable lesson. I gave him until midnight tonight (eastern time) to refund my money. If he does..my plans are dropped..if not..I will open the gates of hell on him. You still have a little less then 4 hours Michael...do the right thing..
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Does anyone know where I can buy an uncut version?
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If Cutemx or filetopia does not work, get a high speed connection (try your university or cyber cafe if it's not in your area. Get goto www.forteinc.com and download the agent software. If you have a decent provider, they should subscribe to a newsgroup service. Fill out the appropriate info for your server and such. Go to one of the cartoon newsgroups and see if ROTJ is posted. Download it. Use Winrar to assemble the pieces. Go to www.vcdhelp.com and get the sw to convert it into VCD format so you can play it on your DVD player. If you want you can dub your DIGITAL copy to tape. Fuck these assholes who try to gouge folks for 35$ and those fucks on EBAY
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HA HA HA, thanks you nit-wit queers for your imature banter of "I sent him $35 bucks and got ripped off!!!" You both are fucked, I do believe M.R. sold you a shitty copy for your money's worth, but I also believe you are a fucking tard spouting out bullshit about sending
names to the F.B.I. just because you couldnt get another copy sent to you.
I mean really, do you expect him to re-send you a tape...for FREE?
Not even the boot-leggist assholes are that dumb!
HA HA HA. But feel free to continue your harrassment of eachother for the sake us making us pee our pants.
Piss off and have a good fucking day.
Also the UNEDITED VERSION, did kick ass, like when the joker after being shot was choking on his blood.
And in the words of the JOKER in the UNCUT VERSION
You boys behave or "DADDY SPANK!"
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