I love talking to the behind-the-scenes folks on a major film like DOCTOR STRANGE (due November 4) almost as much as I do the actors and filmmakers because so often, it is their work that we look at under a microscope or free-frame a scene to see if we can spot something among the sets or props. Surrounded by dozens of props and partials sets (of Dr. Stephen Strange’s living room, for example), a group of online writers got a chance to talk at length with DOCTOR STRANGE’s production designer, Charles Wood, and prop master Barry Gibbs.
Wood has worked on such Marvel titles as THOR: THE DARK WORLD, GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, and AVENGERS: AGE OF ULTRON, as well as non-Marvel films like THE ITALIAN JOB, FLYBOYS, THE A-TEAM, and WRATH OF THE TITANS. While Gibbs has worked on all the same Marvel titles as Wood, along with CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER, as well as other movies, including ZERO DARK THIRTY, MANSFIELD PARK, ABOUT A BOY, LOVE ACTUALLY, HANNIBAL RISING, THE GOLD COMPASS, QUANTUM OF SOLACE, INCEPTION, SNOW WHITE AND THE HUNTSMAN, and THE INFILTRATOR.
We got a fair amount of time to peruse many of the props, and had a great time talking (separately) to these two men. First up are highlights from our walk-around the props with Barry Gibbs…
Question: When you're doing props for a Marvel movie…on regular movies, most of the time they're part of the environment and the background. On a Marvel movie, there are people who are paying an awful lot of attention to every single little prop. Does that factor into [how you design], because they're looking for Easter eggs or references?
Barry Gibbs: It's a worry. I've been with Marvel coming up on six years now, starting with CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER. So yes, Marvel is a completely different family to any other movie I've ever done. You obviously have a great back catalog of comics, which you can refer to. You also have a studio's desires, which could be 10 years ahead. So they might be asking you to design something, "I don't really understand that" but, it's something they have a plan for in another three movies’ time. So attention to detail has become pretty immense. We work with incredible concept artists, who take notes from producers, the director, production designer, myself and set decorators. And then we have an incredibly talented team of people in the UK who have been with us, pretty much, on every movie we've done here, and they learned to understand the detail that’s required for this sort of film.
The Eye of Agamotto, that was clearly the most iconic prop for this film, went through a design process where I started the production many months ago and I was handed a drawing. I was told, "This is the finished design for the Eye of Agamotto" and I said, "Okay, fine. I don't have a crew starting for a few weeks, let's just see how it plays out." Then Alex was started putting the costume together for Strange, she got ahead of the game, because she actually made the cord which attached around the neck before I had an Eye. And the Eye went through a transition state, because it went from something that was quite a simple operation to a design that needed greater thought put into it. So we ended up with a completely redesigned Eye. It looks nothing like the Eye that we had when I first started. Clearly the Eye that you see now is the New York Sanctum Eye, so that reflects the design of the window that's in New York—the trademark for Strange.
So we produced a master mold. Some of you have asked, "Is this a 3D print?” This is not a 3D print. This is hand-sculpted and the reason we did that was that the 3D sculpt made the Eye to fat, so we slimmed it down. So we created it. We sculpted it. We engraved it. We did everything ourselves. The masters are produced in brass, bronze, it was cast. The rest of them were stunt versions, so they're in resin. There were an additional three designs on that: we got the Hong Kong Sanctum, the London Sanctum, and there's also an opening Eye, which we have to work with visual effects and the camera operator.
Question: You as a prop master are creating a lot of props for these movies that also have to work in a digital environment, because they're opening up or flying through the air or whatever else. What are the unique design challenges of those where you're creating something that has to come to life?
BG: With a conventional prop, it's very easy because you make something that's in camera; it's practical, and you work out what it needs to do and whether it needs stunt people or whatever. With visual effects work, you almost test the prop before you've actually completed it. So for instance, the Eye, when it went through the design, I think we went through—his would be very easy if I was in my shop; I’ve got a board laid out showing how many stones we went through. There were something like, I think, 24 color variations of the stone. We went through an additional 12 options on real stones, because one time the Eye wasn't lit, so that when it opened it was supposed to be a natural stone.
We eventually went to a state where we wanted an element of light and that became driven by the visual effects requirements, and they needed something to key to, but also the director of photography's requirements, because he needs to be able to see it in daylight. Quite often, you'll get something that's particularly bright or particularly dark—it’s something you don't take lightly. The main concern is that everyone looks at that, can see a light on and thinks, "That looks like Iron Man,” which clearly we don't want him to look like. So it's very different.
The challenges become greater when you’re working with props that don't exist. A lot the sorcery and the powers are with non-physical props and weapons, so that becomes more of a challenge. They demand as much development and manufacturing time as if you were having to make them. So there's a few straight balances on them.
Question: What color did the stone end up being? Was it dictated by the colors of the costume or was it dictated by something else?
BG: No, it's a very pale green. It's like dirty ice, the color. So it's quite a pale color at the moment but again, it's only key light, so when you get to the stage of the film being released, it may change completely because it's only there for a key. So in one way, it's a bit of a challenge for us because we don't know what it’s going to end up to be like.
Question: The runes around the eye. Do the runes mean something, or are they just really cool looking?
BG: What would you like me to say? [laughs] They’re really cool runes, which do mean something to somebody. No, we had an alphabet which was created by our graphic department and we worked with that. Within the Eye, there are certain movements, and if you press one element, it does certain things. So you’re in one area, touch another one, and it rotates.
Question: Almost like a control pad?
BG: Yeah, hopefully.
Question: So the unique written language—we have a bunch of the books over here…
BG: Yeah, so over here we have the Book of Vishanti, which is one of the key props in the movie. This was produced by our team, and we wanted something that looked ancient, looked as if it was incredibly valuable and revered by The Ancient One. This is the model of the Library, where the private collection of books was housed, and this book was on one of these racks, which moved in and out. I'm not sure what I can and can't say….
Question: Well that's a Dread symbol, right there.
BG: Dredd, as in Judge Dredd? [laughs]
Question: As in the Dread Dormammu.
BG: Could be. But there are elements here that in affect there are codes hidden within it, which take meaning during the course of the film.
Question: So we can come to you with our furniture design needs?
BG: Yeah, it's quite expensive though. [laughter] It's fine. I'm sure we could do it for a reasonable price. It's an organic process, and the nice thing about working, particularly with someone like Marvel, is they allow you to have the shops that we have and they allow us to do what we can. So we can produce furniture, we can produce the medical awards; they can be made here. The production designer or director can say, “That's not quite right. I want to change this. I want to add that. Alter the color.” We can do everything in house, so we've been very lucky here.
Question: Obviously you're there to serve the story, but are there ever Easter eggs for fans that you build into the props?
BG: Sometimes. I've done that twice on some movies, which no one has ever seen.
Question: What are they?
BG: No, I can't say. I will get told off. We're not allowed to. With copyrights, etc., we have to be very careful with what we do.
Question: Sounds like a lot more stuff on this movie maybe than the previous Marvel movies was either actually purchased or handcrafted versus 3D printing. Would you say there's more 3D printing or less 3D printing?
BG: It's been very odd. We've printed two things that we've used, and they were the two awards up there, the two gold ones. We did that because we were at a stage in production where we didn't have the time or people to produce them here. So it was a way of getting them straight out to a vendor to print them, then we bring them back here to finish them. The biggest misconception about 3D printing is everyone thinks it comes straight out of the machine, and it's finished. It's not. It comes back and it needs a tremendous amount of work to finish the quality, before you can plate it. The gold award, which has the snake feature, that is gold plated. So you have to get it to the state where you polish it prior to plating. Whatever you put into it, you get out. So if you don't get it so smooth, you won't get a decent finish.
I suppose the difference between this film and something like GUARDIANS, where it was very open to somebody who wants to use 3D printing, this is very—because it's earth-bound, everything has a history and it's very organic. It really requires a personal touch. And if you've got the people there, use them rather than expect it to be designed by somebody sitting at a bench or sitting at a desk working on a computer, trying to put the detail in. Let it go to somebody who can do it.
I'm trying to think of how much we spent on action props. Because we're locked pretty much in this world for 60 percent of the movie, a lot of the props are conventional. So if you're in a tough situation, you can rent or purchase. Same thing on the streets. All the hospital scenes were a major challenge, and the set decorator for that was incredible. We got involved with numerous partners of medical supplies, and thankfully we didn't have to do much work on it. If you're using a cranial drill, you get a cranial drill. If you're using neurological instruments, we bought them. It's very simple. In fact, the only thing we has to do is, clearly, if you're going to inject or cut into an actor, you had to do something safe, and that was really the only thing where we made modifications.
Question: You said it takes place in our world. Do you mean modern world or...
BG: Earth-bound. That's been the good thing about it. There's been some interesting challenges where you got through even as simple a task as there's a tea ceremony. Most tea ceremonies are Japanese, but we wanted something Nepalese. Nepalese uses a certain type of cup. Scott didn't want that cup, so you then had to try to find an interesting cup that works for the scene but also works with an action that happens within that scene. So certain things we had to create. Otherwise, we've been lucky to use historical items and things we've found.
Next up are highlights from our talk with production designer Charles Wood. Enjoy…
Question: You’re pulling from real world and fantasy concepts. How do you approach that and where do you draw the line between something that has to look like an identifiable part of the world versus weird, alternate-dimension stuff?
Charles Wood: Meaning, how do you decide that?
Question: Where is that line for you, between stuff that can be recognized in the real world and stuff that can be more fantastical or bizarre or strange.
CW: Really that’s driven by the script, I suppose and talking to Scott [Derrickson, director and co-writer] and the studio about where that line is, but it’s an interesting question because back to the first part of the question about what we do about reality-based stuff. It’s always a big challenge in any of these types of films when you’ve got these god-like characters or larger-than-life characters to take these people and put them into an environment where it’s really important, I think, that it’s at least plausible. Whatever we build, a lot of our attention is in trying to really immerse an audience into that space and trying to make it as realistic as possible.
As far as the fantasy element and where that line is, yes, that would be driven by the story, but maybe the liberating factor about these type of films is you can bounce from one, back into another, because this sort of film supports it, meaning you could walk down a corridor in our New York Sanctum, open a door and just go into something that is completely bonkers, and then jump back into it. But as long as you do it, as long as you try to make the environment you’re in, we’ve gone to huge lengths in this film to try and make that, as I said, very realistic, then I think you can play with those things quite easily.
Question: Kamar-Taj, which is a fictional location, how much of that are you basing on reality, like actual Nepalese design?
CW: A lot of it. I think I went over to Nepal, I think it was three or four times, and we really studied everything—how the bricks are put together, he color palette of being in that part of the world. We studied all of the architectural influences, how they built a lot with wood. So, we collected all of that information and we brought it all back to the UK, and basically created our world from that. If you were, say, to walk out onto Stage 1 and look at the courtyard we’ve built and the streets we’ve built, some of it is very close to what you would find in Nepal, and I literally mean down to the doors, the door handles, the fretted window screens and the rest of it, so much so that there’s one scene where, we obviously filmed in Kathmandi, you walk around a corner, then we’re onto a stage set on the continuation of that street. You have to be authentic, because if you’re not, it’s going to scream out.
Question: The Sanctum Sanctorum is the only real iconic location associated with Doctor Strange. You’ve got loads of comic book material to pull from. What do you do when you’re doing a design that is something that people know from the comics, that they have a visual idea already? How do you translate that into film?
CW: Well, yes, you’re right. That was probably the most important space we’ve got, the most iconic space. How did you translate it? Again, the comics are a guide. For instance, you look at the house, you see it on the corner of the street in the comics, has a big round window and some strange logo, so you get the sense of the volume of it, but that’s about it. What you don’t want to do is, you don’t want to sort of make that place some stereotypical interior.
You want to have an experience when you walk through it, so again, it’s going back to that idea, when you walk into the sanctum sanctorum, you can either do two things. You can walk in and your experience could be, “Oh, this is what it is. This is a great looking place, kind of weird,” or you can walk into it and be blown back a bit, and we tried to do the second part of that, we hope. It’s a strange world, but it should be. But then, it’s trying to find that line where you’re not pushing it so far that it becomes unacceptable. Kevin was saying, the lovely thing about this film, this is quite a shadowy movies. It’s quite a dark movie in many parts, so a lot of what we’ve done in this film is also very suggestive, and thanks to how Ben Davis, our brilliant DP, has lit it too, so it has a very distinct look, I hope.
Question: What aspect of the production are you and your team proudest for having realized?
CW: All of this stuff, for someone like me, in my world, is wonderful to do, but I think the Nepalese sets are probably the hardest ones to do, because they were the most unusual and to try and pull those off. We had extras from Nepal coming onto the stage, and you wander around them, and hope they’re not going to start laughing their heads off. They seemed to embrace it and seemed to be really pleased that we’d gone to that much effort, as we did in Nepal. We were showing a lot of people in Nepal what we were doing in the UK to see if we could get their support, and they gave that to us, so that’s all brilliant. In the UK here, I’m really lucky, I really do have one of the finest crews I think you could have—the plasterers, they’re all artisans these guys, and the painters and all of that, all of them. So, they bring a massive authenticity to these types of films.
Question: In the original comics, the Sanctum Sanctorum is like a bohemian, beatnik environment. In 2016, what is the Sanctum Sanctorum like?
CW: You’ll have to wait. I couldn’t possibly tell you that, but it’s a good question. Yes, it’s, ooh, I’m going to get into trouble if I say that. But it’s unexpected, let’s put it that way. Yeah, sorry.
Question: Do you prefer based in reality things or do you like doing more crazy designs?
CW: I think all of it. I think you wouldn’t want one or the other. To be able to go from Sanctum Sanctorum to some really, really bizarre dimension. It’s brilliant stuff to do. It’s terrifying sometimes, because you don’t actually know sometimes, when you step into the world, how mad it could be. And the thing with Scott and with the studio is they definitely push you to the limit and then beyond to try not to be regurgitative, to try and find original images and visuals to put into the film. It’s brilliant on one hand, but it’s scary on the other. On a film like this, we probably create, honestly, probably thousands of pieces of concept art that we go through every week. We have these big sessions where we look at everything we’re doing. We analyze it, what sticks, sticks and what doesn’t, doesn’t, but you end up going through this process by which these environments develop into something else until you stick on something. That’s all pretty mad stuff and you get what you and your team are capable of.
Question: I noticed the apartment drawing here for Steven Strange’s apartment. I’m just wondering, that’s just like a high-end, New York apartment, but how do you design something like that, where it also reveals something about the character at that point in his life? What were some of the things you were going for that design?
CW: One of the things, we had a big discussion about how much money he would have made as a surgeon in New York, and we did some early concept art where the studio said, “It’s crazy. The guy would be making $54 million a year.” So, I didn’t realize, being in London and I thought, that a nice flat in Chelsea would be it. So, that was definitely batted back to me for being too big. Where it was in town would have, we got that one wrong, so we pulled it back. These spaces, it was more to do with what’s outside the window. A lot of this film is very, I hope, thought provoking, because that’s who he is as a character.
So, basically, that apartment had to do with the aspect ratio, we wanted to see New York outside the window, so from my perspective, it was all about that. That’s why you’ll notice there’s very little in there. It’s all about polished floors, polished ceilings, so that when you put the composite in there, all of the city is reflected around him. It’s just about him and the city, not really about the space, if that makes sense. So, it’s quite minimal, so you focus the audience’s attention to what he’s thinking and the troubles he’s going through, and when he’s looking out at the city at night.
Question: You’re the world of DOCTOR STRANGE, obviously, but you’re also doing the 13th or 14th movie in a larger world of the Marvel universe. Does that play at all in your choices and how so?
CW: Well, I think it’s its own thing,. You’re conscious of the odd story line or the odd Easter egg, the odd thing where it may be relevant to some other story, which I may not even be aware of. But this film is very much its own thing in its look and the color palette we’ve chosen, so we’re trying o give each film and this film its own signature. I think we wouldn’t be doing well if we didn’t do that, so we do go to great lengths not to regurgitate what’s been done in the past, and that’s actually one of the big challenges, because there’s an awful lot that has been done.
Question: I have to ask you really quick about the alternate dimensions. When you’re developing those, you’re truly introducing something completely brand new into this Marvel cinematic universe. What are some of the challenges, or even just the starting points, when you’re going into something that wild?
CW: Ditko was one of the main starting points, that’s where the comics really did come into it, looking at how those other dimensions had been portrayed in the comics. I looked at that stuff in the beginning and thought, “Oh my God,. How could that ever translate into film?” And that would be the key, because if you have that attitude, you’re never going to get anywhere, because you won’t allow yourself to go into that world. But once the studio says, “Nope, on you go,” you sit there terrified in some big session with Kevin and the rest of them, saying “Here it is,” and they say, “Wow, that’s mad.”So Ditko was a huge influence in all of that, and then we took that as a starting point and really took it from there to try to come up with something very different.
Question: Is is all of it CG or are there any practical locations in the other dimensions and sets you had to build?
CW: Combinations. There’s set pieces, a few locations we’re going to go on to build environments into other environments, so it’s a collective thing. Some of the journey is so bizarre, there’s no way we could do anything, physically you couldn’t do it.
