Annette Kellerman chats with THE NEON DEMON director Nicholas Winding Refn and composer Cliff Martinez
Published at: June 21, 2016, 7 p.m. CST by Annette Kellerman
I was thrilled to have the opportunity to sit down and talk about the new film THE NEON DEMON with director Nicholas Winding Refn as well as composer Cliff Martinez. I really dug the movie and had so many questions...though you will see that the director was much more interested in my own take on his latest endeavor. Fortunately, I had plenty to say about Refn's foray into the horror genre, and he and Martinez had a lot to share as well. Enjoy!
Rebecca Elliott: When does the collaboration process between you two begin?
Nicholas Winding Refn: What did you think seeing the movie?
RE: I would say from the get go. Early on. Possibly even in the writing process you have an idea of the sound.
Cliff Martinez: Even before. Back when the only thing he was divulging was that he wanted to make a film about women this time. That's the first thing that I heard and that was before any script.
NWR: The first person I described this movie to, like the very first person...
CM: Matt.
NWR: No, even before Matt. Even before you. Even before Liv and the kids I was sitting at dinner with Christina Hendricks in L.A., and I said to her, "I think I'm going to make a horror movie next and it has to have high heels and blood."
RE: It's a good combo.
NWR: Ain't that cool, because nobody knows that. So you know it now.
RE: I got the scoop!
NWR: And she said she'd be in it.
RE: And that was a bonus for sure, no doubt. Are there horror directors or composers that either of you draw inspiration from?
CM: I like to think of myself as original thinking, which I'm not because I shamelessly steal from other people.
NWR: Like everyone else.
RE: Everyone is influenced in some way.
CM: I like to combine two thefts in one so it has the appearance of being original.
NWR: That was Picasso's plan.
CM: It worked for him. With this one we didn't dwell on it. As temporary music he used wall to wall Bernard Herman. And you can tell how far away from the the score ended up. So, I think that this one was kind of one of the most untethered from role models and influences and discussion about, "I really like Eno or I really like Kraftwerk, let's get more of that."
NWR: Yeah. With the Bernard Herman thing, it was able to track the emotional high and low points of the story. The swirliness, the unearthliness. But it's a completely different sound, so the first time Cliff saw it he was like, "You want orchestral?" No no no no no! Disregard! Disregard! This is just purely an emotional ride for you, but have to take it into your own universe. So it was like a complete open canvas.
RE: Right. So, go with these themes and emotion, but do your own thing.
CM: One of the biggest notes that I got that I brought into this film, was from ONLY GOD FORGIVES. I had done three or four drafts of a particular scene and Nicholas said, "I really like this one because it makes me feel really gay." (Refn snickers) And then the whole thing about this being a feminine film is something that I kinda took with me- I gotta make it feel gay. (now everyone laughs out loud) So that was my little blueprint. What can I do to make Nicholas gay with music?
NWR: And I was a 16 year old girl in the film.
RE: I suppose that comes through somewhat.
NWR: And what was it like seeing the movie?
RE: I really like the juxtaposition of the main character's ethereal, youthful innocence against the overall sinister tone. That drew me in initially.
NWR: And then what?
RE: And then it's just balls to the wall! I didn't know much going into it, which I love, and the film totally went there in ways I wasn't expecting.
CM: Maybe it should be THE NEON DEMON: BALLS TO THE WALL.
NWR: And what was it like from a woman's perspective?
RE: Obviously I like that all of the main characters are female and to see their dynamic and it not be one dimensional. It's also always fun to see women be the bad guys. You certainly turned the stereotypical gender roles on their head.
NWR: But from a woman's view, you being a woman, what was it like seeing a movie about this subject?
RE: I thought it was great. It is invigorating in a way that you don't often see in horror. There is a lot of great female driven horror out there and this story is definitely up there. Can you talk about the casting, particularly Elle Fanning?
NWR: Well, the casting was...we live in Copenhagan- my wife and our kids. The only place that Liv wanted to go was L.A. At home I'm very dominated by women, so it helps to build up my masculinity when I work. So, we had moved here, and found schools for them, which was the big thing for us. I started casting- I was really only casting unknown actrresses, and it was really hard. Not that there wasn't great talent. There were some wonderful actresses. I was looking at everyone as a potential. I'd written this character that has "the thing" so I needed someone who has that. And she had to be young. The haystack was so enormous, and there was no needle in it I felt. So, Liv had seen one of Elle later films, and said she was really really good in it. I started inquiring about Elle Fanning, and her manager sent me a photo shoot, like a fashion shoot, and once I saw that it was like, that's her! I mean, that's her. Just, Mission: get Elle Fanning. And like any kind of negotiation, you never want to show all of your cards, so we were like (acting nonchalant), maybe we can meet and talk about.
RE: She
might work...
NWR: Yeah. What I didn't know is that Elle really wanted the role. So, I thought I had to woo her, and she thought she had to persuade me. We met at my house, and I think, knowing that she was 16, I basically asked her...at first I asked her, "Do you think you're beautiful?" And she said yes. And then I told her I shoot in chronological order, and she didn't really know what that meant. That's a way to build up this character and this movie, and I write all of my movies on the main protagonist. And you're 16, and I would like to be a 16 year old girl. I fantasize about it, but we need to create this together. For her, as I understand it, she wanted to really make a movie about her generation. And I was like that's a perfect match then. She agreed to the film, and eight weeks later we were shooting. And then it became like, if it hadn't been for that incident, if it hadn't been for that meeting, I don't think that I would've made the film. She is such a...it's like Ryan (Gosling) doing DRIVE.
RE: Like a muse?
NWR: Yeah! It became the reason to make it. Does that make sense?
RE: Perfect sense. You find the perfect fit and that gives you the motivation to see it through.
NWR: Everything suddenly makes sense. And the other girls- aside from Christina who had agreed because of blood and high heels- were from casting sessions. And I didn't know that Abbey Lee was a big supermodel until my wife told me. But she was great, and it was kind of ironic that she would be the one that felt she was a ghost because she's so incredibly, wow! Born so unique.
RE: Stunning.
NWR: And the whole thing of course ended with Keanu Reeves coming in.
Brandy Fons (publicist): And a female cinematographer.
NWR: Yes! Natasha Braier shot the film, and again I surrounded myself with as many women as possible. I think Natasha and Elle were really crucial in living out the woman fantasy. And then there was Cliff on the musical side. And then there was Matt the editor.
RE: What drew you to the modeling profession or the fashion industry? And Cliff, how did that inform your musical choices?
CM: Oh boy, I don't know! But if you want to ask me any questions about drum sticks or guitar strings...
NWR: In the modeling world.
RE: Yes, in the modeling world.
CM: I think the only time I gave the larger theme of the modeling much consideration, the runway sequence was a huge musical moment. We often talked about that as being kind of the turning point for the character, the pinnacle of the story line. It kind of gave some kind of, I suppose to my idea of what the runway music might sound like. I guess I haven't really thought about the film in terms of hearing the film being spoken of in all of these interviews.
RE: It wasn't that deep.
CM: No. I'm not, so...(we all laugh)
RE: That's ok! That's an honest answer.
NWR: I think that Cliff is right. We didn't set out to make a movie about fashion because there's so much good television about the fashion world, modeling world, or modeling competition and so forth. What was interesting was that- I mean, we've both worked in fashion commercials, Cliff and I. I've done them, he's done the music, and I thought of it as a very fascinating backround. A fascinating scenario. I think once you're dealing with beauty, the world of fashion and modeling, it's such a dominating factor in society, but it's also a mirror of our cultural revolution. Especially for women. Whether it's sexual or political and so forth, you can really track that through the fashion. So it became like an arena where there was a heightened version of part of the film's obsession.
RE: What's up with the triangle symbolism? Or is that up to the audience to figure out for themselves?
NWR: Well, of course some of it is for the audience. With a triangle there's the three sides, then there's the neon- which gives a science fiction sensibility to it. At the same time it is a very strong satanic symbol if you reverse it. There's also the female sexuality- the shape compared to the reverse which is very much a phallus symbol. So the triangle is very much a mirror in a way, of everything about her.
CM: For the music, the triangle and where it's used in the film was kind of the permission to go fantasy film, fantasy music, science fiction music... there were some things about the score that I thought sounded like scifi music. I thought the triangle in the runway sequence and the dream sequence in the hotel kind of made me feel comfortable doing music that was a little further left of center than the rest of the score because that's where the film takes a turn and heads into the stratosphere.
RE: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about that I haven't touched on yet?
NWR: What's it like to be a woman?
RE:Ha! I'm afraid we don't have time to get into that subject, but thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate.
NWR: Thank you.
CM: Thanks.
So, as you can see this turned out to be quite an interesting chat about their film. I hope you enjoyed seeing the table being turned on me, especially since I was pretty excited to talk to the director about the buzz worthy film. THE NEON DEMON opens this Friday, June 24th, and if you are a fan of Refn's work or just want to check out a fun, twisted horror tale I highly recommend checking it out!
