Actor Michael Shannon has been a staple on the Chicago theater scene for decades, thanks in large part to his regularly appearing in productions at his own A Red Orchid Theatre company. I saw him two years ago there in a production of Sam Shepard’s “Simpatico,” and he’ll be back in November for a run of “Pilgrim's Progress.” If you haven’t had a chance to see Shannon on stage, do what you can to make it happen. The first time I saw him in the setting was a 2012 Broadway run of the Craig Wright’s "Grace," in which Shannon starred with Paul Rudd, Ed Asner and Kate Arrington, who also happens to be Shannon’s wife, and it was a riveting experience.
But most of you know Shannon as a film actor, first appearing in smaller roles in such works as JESUS’ SON, GROUNDHOG DAY, CHAIN REACTION, PEARL HARBOR, VANILLA SKY, 8 MILE, BAD BOYS 2, and WORLD TRADE CENTER, Shannon caught many people’s eyes in the film adaptation of the Tracy Letts’ play BUG, which Shannon had originally starred in. But it was in the late 2000s that Shannon really exploded and became the actor of choice for both new and established directors looking to tap into his intensity and inherent creepiness. He scored major roles in Sidney Lumet’s BEFORE THE DEVIL KNOWS YOU’RE DEAD and Jeff Nichols’ first feature SHOTGUN STORIES (the two have collaborated on every Nichols’ film since, including TAKE SHELTER, MUD and his upcoming MIDNIGHT SPECIAL and LOVING, both set for release in 2016).
But it was Shannon’s Oscar-nominated turn in the Sam Mendes-director REVOLUTIONARY ROAD that turned a corner for the actor, who soon starred in a pair of Werner Herzog movies (BAD LIEUTENANT: PORT OF CALL NEW ORLEANS and MY SON, MY SON, WHAT HAVE YE DONE). He also memorably played manager/producer Kim Fowley in THE RUNAWAYS and a dirty cop in the insanely fun bike-based chase film PREMIUM RUSH. Shannon might be best known for two more recent turns—as Nelson Van Alden, the FBI agent turned low-level associate of Al Capone, in five seasons of HBO’s “Boardwalk Empire,” and as General Zod in Zack Snyder’s reworking of the Superman legend in MAN OF STEEL (Shannon has been seen as the dead Zod in next year’s BATMAN V SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE, and he may have a bit more going on in the film than we realize.
Shannon seemingly has about a dozen projects due to come out in the coming year or so, and I’m particularly excited to see his turn as Elvis Presley in ELVIS & NIXON (opposite Kevin Spacey as Richard Nixon), a film we talk about in our conversation. But the films that brought us together in Chicago last week are the upcoming releases 99 HOMES, from director Ramin Bahrani, in which Shannon plays a twisted real estate agent taking full advantage of desperate homeowners during the recent economic downturn; and FREEHELD for director Peter Sollett, in which Shannon portrays real-life New Jersey cop Dane Wells, whose partner (Julianne Moore) is dying of cancer and fighting to make sure her life partner (Ellen Page) gets her benefits when she dies from cancer. Both performances are quite memorable and do a tremendous job of illustrating Shannon’s range as an actor, especially in FREEHELD, where he plays one of the nicest guys the actor has ever embodied. Enough preamble; let’s get to the interview. Please enjoy my chat with the great Michael Shannon…
Capone: We actually met a few years ago at Ebertfest when you were there for TAKE SHELTER with Jeff Nichols.
Michael Shannon: I was. I wish I could have come for 99 HOMES [which played at this year’s Ebertfest].
Capone: I saw 99 HOMES at Sundance.
MS: Oh, you were out there?
Capone: I saw it again yesterday just to refresh my memory. I’ve also seen you a couple of times recently on stage. I saw you in “Simpatico” a couple of years ago at Red Orchid, which I understand you’re doing another play there soon…
MS: Yeah, the show is “Pilgrim’s Progress.”
Capone: Right. And I saw in in “Grace” Broadway the year before, which is remarkable.
MS: That’s awesome. I love that play. I love working with Paul [Rudd]. That was very sweet of him to do that play. He’d been looking for a play to do.
Capone: When you’re offered a part like this guy, like Rick [in 99 HOMES], is there an element of fear that comes into play when deciding to go with it? Do you say “I’ve never done this, therefore I have to do it”?
MS: Well, yeah. It’s surprising, for sure. It’s definitely surprising. Traditionally if you sit and read that script, it’s probably not the part you would put me in, if you were casting it. I’d probably be up for the Frank Green character [a character who gets evicted and ends up pulling a gun when the sheriffs come to throw him out of his home]. But I’ve been very interested lately in trying to challenge myself to do things that people may not expect. I’m very grateful to Ramin [Bahrani, director and co-writer] that he trusted me enough to do that.
I remember the first time I talked to Ramin about the movie. We weren't even talking about a specific part, I had just read the script, and he said, “I think Rick Carver, whoever plays that has got to be a big star like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise—somebody who has movie star beaming out of them.” A month later, he says, “Actually, I want you to do it.” I said, “Wow. Did you get hit in the head with a brick or something? That’s a pretty big difference.” But I don’t know, he saw it in me. If an artist sees something in me that other people haven’t seen before and is willing to give me an opportunity, then I’m grateful for it.
Capone: Were you familiar with Ramin's work before?
MS: Oh yeah. I met Ramin at the Venice Film Festival in 2009. The first one of his films I saw was a short film called PLASTIC BAG.
Capone: I love that short.He’s an Ebertfest regular, so he played that there, which is where I saw it.
MS: They were close friends.
Capone: This is a very different film than the other ones that he’s done, if for no other reason than having a character like Rick in it. Rick is a lot of things. He ruthless, but he’s also a husband and a father and a philanderer. A corrupter of souls. How do you even begin the process to pull all of that together into one man?
MS: I think anytime you’re building something, you start with a foundation, a core. You try and figure out what somebody’s engine is, like why does this guy get out of bed in the morning? I think he just became addicted to a game. He saw this landscape, this terrain that he was in as a game, like the way you play Monopoly, and the reality of it, because it’s so painful, he just became anesthetized to it over time. Although, he says he’s numb, but I don’t think he’s really numb. I just think he’s compartmentalized it. If Rick had his choice, he would never do an eviction again as long as he lived. He even says it in the movie; it’s all in the movie. That’s the whole reason he’s training Dennis to do it. He’s like, I don’t like doing this. Who in their right mind would like do this? It’s ridiculous.
It’s interesting that you say all these things, to get back to the point I was making, the core is that he’s an intensely lonely person. Obviously, he’s surrounded by people. Yet, I don’t think he feels particularly close to any of them. He also is receiving a lot of animosity a lot of the time. He knows everybody thinks he’s an asshole. He’s not oblivious. For me, as an actor when you’re approaching a story, you have to find that relationship. It all hinges on relationship. What’s the central relationship, and why does that relationship exist? He’s looking to Dennis for that.
People say it’s like a father-son thing or a mentor thing. There might be elements of that, but what he’s really looking for is for Dennis to look him in the eye and say “I understand what you’re doing, I understand why you’re doing it, and it’s okay. You’re not a bad person.” That would be Rick’s dream come true. I honestly think that Rick is quite haunted by what he does. When he says he’s numb, he doesn’t go cry about it. He doesn’t sit in his car with a hankie and weep. But for him to say that he’s not affected by what he does, he’s in a bit of denial.
Capone: When he takes Dennis to his first eviction, he says, “The first one’s hard, but you get numb to it.” But there has to be something broken inside you if you’ve actually been able to numb yourself or convince yourself that you’re numb to it. So you do feel for the guy in a way.
MS: Of course he’s going to say that to Dennis. What else is he going to say? “The first one’s hard and the rest are hard too”? He’s a salesman. He’s like “Don’t worry, you’ll get used to it.”
Capone: I do realize that acting is more than just memorizing your lines, but that being said, there’s a lot of dialogue here, and much of it is legalese and real estate jargon. Was that tough to wrap your brain around, get the words exactly right, and convince us that you knew what it all meant?
MS: It’s all mumbo jumbo to me [laughs]. I have little or no interest in the real estate business, no experience with it. Yeah, when I first read the script, I didn’t know half of what he was saying or what he was talking about. But I did my research and I spent time with brokers, and when they explained it to me, it was actually quite interesting. I was like, :”Oh, that’s what that means.” So I was happy to do it. It was fun. It’s very percussive. It’s very musical. It reminds me of Mamet a little bit, and I’ve always been a huge fan of David Mamet, particularly something like GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS. So I think Ramin injected that sensibility into this.
Capone: This is his version of that, for sure, but with his trademark personal touch.
MS: Right. Ramin makes films because he has a conscious. He’s a very sensitive and thoughtful artist. He’s very plugged into our culture and what people are going through.
Capone: I just interviewed Michael Stuhlbarg last week for a new movie he’s in now…
MS: He’s in PAWN SACRIFICE.
Capone: That’s the one I interviewed him for, but I asked him a question about “Boardwalk Empire.” Is getting to spend that long, fiver years, with a single character, coming back to that guy and getting to spend time with him over that period, is that similar to what you get to do in the theater but spread out?
MS: I’m curious to what his answer to that question was.
Capone: He had a slightly different take. He wasn’t in every episode, and he was only in for a couple of minutes in every episode, but you had a much bigger arc as Nelson.
MS: I love Van Alden. Van Alden, he’s like a ghost. I would just go about my business, carry on with life as usual, then every once in a while, I’d pop in and play Van Alden. When you do a movie or play, you’re seeing a character every day. When you do TV, it’s not like that, even for me. I wasn’t there every day. It was mysterious to me how I could go a long period of time without doing it, then I would show up to work, put on a costume, and it would come to me. It wasn’t like I was keeping a Van Alden journal all the time.
Also the writing at the end of the day is by and large not as sophisticated. That’s the way I see it. A lot of people say it’s the golden era of television, isn’t it grand? I’m like, “No, it’s still television. It will always be television.” It’s about perpetuating people’s interest in a flickering light. That’s what television is, and I feel to compare it to 99 HOMES or the theater work I do is doesn’t hold up. And I also feel like it fell into a pattern; it got kind of repetitive. It’s like, Van Alden is shamed. Van Alden is enraged. Van Alden gets punished. What are you going to do next, drop a piano on my head? So it’s also hard to get super-invested in something that you don’t have any say in. You literally get your pages for your scenes two days before you start shooting. It’s like you’re a paratrooper or something—you jump in, do your mission, and get out.
Capone: I read somewhere that you and Ramin are contemplating something for television.
MS: Well, that’s different. A miniseries is different. That is a miniseries, and it’s an adaptation of a book, so you know what the material is. My participation, my opinion is being sought after. Ramin is asking “How do you think we should do this?” It’s something that I would probably be a producer on, something that I would be invested in, and it’s based on a book that I think is really wonderful. So that’s a whole different can of worms. Look at something like OLIVE KITTERIDGE. It’s more like that. “Boardwalk Empire” was a soap opera; I was on a soap opera for five years.
Capone: That’s true. But I don’t think any character on that show changed more over the course of those five seasons than yours.
MS: True. I liked the first two seasons. Season three, they lost me. That’s how I feel.
Capone: In its review of your performance in “Grace,” The New York Times said you were “our reigning champ in embodying uneasy American manhood.” Does that work for you?
MS: Me and Joaquin Phoenix. Yeah, sure. That’s what my mom set out to do [laughs]. Yeah. Uneasy manhood. Look, anytime somebody in The New York Times says you’re the reigning champ of something, you got to be heartened by that.
Capone: I won’t ask you any details, because I know you won’t say anything, but someone asked you about being in the BATMAN V SUPERMAN film. I think what happened was you made some a joke. Are you shocked that some weird, offhand joke you made took off and become news?
MS: Yes. I was incredibly surprised anyone took that seriously. I realize saying that could sound very condescending, but I thought it was abundantly clear that what I was saying was complete horse shit. I mean, but I guess it wasn’t to them.
Capone: It was, but they’re just so desperate for any little nugget of information.
MS: I’m just old fashioned. Isn’t it more exciting to just wait for the movie? I remember when I went to see SUPERMAN, I didn’t have a sneak preview. I didn’t know what the hell was going to happen, and it was so exciting.
Capone: It is exciting that General Zod is getting a lot of milage out of being dead. They even show you in the trailer.
MS: I find that an interesting approach, to show me in the trailer. I applaud their daring do. It’s not like I’m being coy. I literally have nothing to say about that movie, like literally. I’m not being like, “I really shouldn’t.” I have nothing to say. That’s why I say things like “He has flippers,” because I have nothing to say.
Capone: I’m actually more excited about you playing Elvis Presley [in ELVIS & NIXON]. I don’t know anything about the film other than it’s you and Kevin Spacey. Is it a comedy? Is it a serious look at when they met? What’s the approach there? How much did you try to embody Elvis Presley?
MS: You know what happens? This is a beautiful story. First of all, how much did I try to embody Elvis Presley? I tried my damnedest, as much as I try to do anything else in life. I took it super, super, super seriously, because I feel like Elvis, as beloved as he is, does not get taken seriously very often. He’s usually portrayed as this goofball, and he wasn’t a goofball. He was a very serious artist. I had the guidance and participation of Jerry Schilling, who was one of Elvis’s closest friends. We went to Graceland, we went to Memphis, he showed me everything and took me under his wing. I studied everything I could study. I read books, I watched movies—both the documentaries and the feature films that he acted in—I watched press conferences, I listened to interviews. Instead of oxygen, it was Elvis for three months. I just never stopped.
And, the second thing you asked— yes. So, this is really interesting. One day, we’re shooting in the Oval Office, me and Kevin, and Kevin seems to be having a good time. He seems to be having fun. He turns to me, grabs my arm and says, “You know what this is like? It’s like DR. STRANGELOVE. This movie is like DR. STRANGELOVE.” I’m like, “That’s really interesting.” Kevin said, “Why?” I said, “You know what Elvis’s favorite movie was?” “What?” “DR. STRANGELOVE.” Elvis loved DR. STRANGELOVE, and he could impersonate the characters in it verbatim with 100 percent accuracy, and that was Elvis’s sense of humor. If nothing else, if nobody even sees the movie, at least Kevin Spacey turned to me and told me that it was like DR. STRANGELOVE, and Elvis’s favorite movie is DR. STRANGELOVE, and I’m playing Elvis. So that was the trifecta.
Capone: I think they’re going to yank me out of here. I didn’t get a chance to ask you about FREEHELD, which I just saw the other day.
MS: Oh, did you?
Capone: Oh, god. What a different guy that is.
MS: Dane Wells. God bless him.
Capone: [I’m told we have a little extra time] Actually, they’re saying I’ve got a couple more minutes, so let me ask you about FREEHELD. Dane is a real interesting guy, because even though he says he’s an atheist, he’s also a little conservative, but he has an inherent understanding of right and wrong, and that’s all that matters to him in this fight. It doesn't matter what he thinks about gay people. He has this partner that he loves and cares about, and he knows what’s right. Is it more fulfilling to play a guy who’s just a genuinely good person like that?
MS: Again, it goes back to how this conversation started. I’ve been looking to do things that defy people’s expectations of what I do. Honestly, at the end of the day, I do it because it moves me the same way it moves anyone else. I saw the documentary and I was totally moved by it.
My eldest sister is gay, and she’s married, and they’ve adopted two kids, and the thought of something like that happening to her makes me furious. It was an opportunity to make something that could mean something to her, which is nice. But yeah, you meet Dane. Dane’s a super smart guy, very reserved, very quiet, not what you would expect at all. But every time he talks about Laurel, it’s not like he starts crying necessarily, but every time he starts talking about Laurel, you can feel that she was probably one of his best friends—the bond between them. They would actually go long periods of time without talking. It’s not like they were at Starbucks every morning catching up. But he’s a really deep cat, man.
Capone: Are you an actor that still learns from other actors by watching them work, especially if they have a slightly different approach than you do? What do you learn just from Julianne Moore?
MS: Oh yeah. I don’t think it would behoove me to act like Julianne Moore. I think we’re pretty different. She’s really a lot of fun to work with. I’m usually very quiet on set. I don’t talk much. It’s not that I’m in character, it’s just that I don’t like chit-chat very much, and I like to think about what I’m doing. But Julie likes to talk. I remember the first day, we were doing a scene in a car, we were sitting in this little car, and she was just like, “Blah, blah, blah.” Then she turns to me and is like, “It’s okay that I’m talking, right?” And I’m like, “You’re Julianne Moore. So yeah, do whatever you want.”
I was a little taken aback, but then a got used to it, then I actually enjoyed it. It’s a unique challenge, because she’d try to make me laugh, call me silly names and stuff. It’s just beautiful to see someone be like that, because it’s not like she doesn’t take it seriously. She takes it very seriously. She’s prepared, she’s done her research. I just think she’s so good that she doesn’t need a running start to get into it; she just does it. I heard they just showed FREEHELD at the film festival here.
Capone: It hasn’t started yet, so that’d be impossible. Oh, but it was at Reeling, the gay and lesbian film festival. It played there.
MS: Oh, I’m sorry I missed that. They called Red Orchid, but I had rehearsal that night.
Capone: Michael, thank you so much. It was really great to talk to you. Nice to see you again.
