If all I said as an introduction to this interview was, Caroll Spinney has been the man inside the Big Bird suit (and doing the voice) on “Sesame Street” since the character was created in 1969, that’s pretty much reason enough to read it (he also created and voices Oscar the Grouch). More importantly, it’s reason enough to watch the sweet and insightful documentary I AM BIG BIRD: THE CAROLL SPINNEY STORY, which is making its way to art house cinemas across the country right now.
Far from a soft-touch biography, I AM BIG BIRD follows Spinney through a fairly rough childhood, a divorce that took him to a dark place in him head, and the emotional upheaval that he and his fellow Muppeteers went through when their beloved boss and “Sesame Street” creator Jim Henson died almost 25 years to the day from when I spoke to Spinney. It’s almost cliche at this point to say that Spinney has been a part of so many children’s lives all over the world, but it’s true. The film makes the point that Big Bird essentially became the face of the show for decades, and as a result Spinney got to travel the world and make specials in China, Japan, pretty much anywhere there were kids.
But strictly as a master class in puppeteering, I AM BIG BIRD is a fascinating examination of Spinney’s craft and what makes the way he operates Big Bird so unique (he actually can’t see out of the costume, for example). It’s a great little doc from co-directors Dave LaMattina and Chad N. Walker, and the archival footage alone of some of the nation’s greatest puppeteers alone makes it worth seeing. I had a chance to chat with the 81-year-old Spinny last week, and we had the time to cover much of his life and career. Please enjoy my talk with Caroll Spinney…
Caroll Spinney: Hi, Steve.
Capone: Hi Caroll. How are you?
CS: Great, thanks.
Capone: It’s an honest to god pleasure to be talking to you, especially after watching that great movie.
CS: Oh, thank you. I thought it was great too. I agree.
Capone: Absolutely. I’m wondering why now did you decide this was a good time to put your story out there and to open up your life like this?
CS: Well, I guess I have a couple of answers: “Why not?” That’s as good as any answer. Also, “I’m still alive.” [laughs] I think that’s cool.
Capone: Yay!
CS: Because I’ve been doing it for 45 years, it seems like some people don't live much longer than that, because I’m in my 80s now.
Capone: Was this the first time someone approached you to do something like this?
CS: It was. It was 2008 when they asked if we wanted to do it. [His wife] Deb and I drove down to New York to talk to them, and we said, “That might be kind of fun. Why not?”
Capone: How did Dave and Chad come to you and pitch this idea?
CS: First, they went to “Sesame Street” and asked if they’d like to do it, because they realized they’d like to have a lot of material from “Sesame Street” as well—footage and stuff. I am very happy with our PR people. Ellen Lewis [Vice President, Corporate Communications, Sesame Workshop] is terrific, and she thought it’d be good for “Sesame Street” as well. So she asked if we’d like to do it. We went down and met them. We think it was a great idea. It was a good decision to make it.
Capone: There are a few four-letter words sprinkled in the film here and there. Little kids might hear a few things they’ve never heard before.
CS: [laughs] Yeah, I said a naughty f-word in that scene. Apparently looking at the scene, it was quite awhile ago; I think it was in France. I think it was with a taxi driver. It wasn’t bad enough that if you listen carefully you hear me say that word, but they spelled it out underneath.
Capone: They put subtitles underneath you, just in case we missed it.
CS: [laughs] Right, just in case you missed it. So I said, “Are you sure you really want that in the movie?” People will take their children to this, because it’s Big Bird. I told people about the film, and they say, “Oh, I have to get my children ready.” And I say, “It isn’t really a kids movie. It’s not very adult, but here and there it’s not what you want your five- or seven-year-old to see.”
Capone: Even if they’d bleeped the language, there are certain parts of your life that were very rough. Were there parts that were particularly difficult for you to revisit during the interview process?
CS: No, although those moments stuck with me. The description of when I spilled the paint [as a child, after which his father beat him badly] is very abbreviated because it was so awesome of a reaction on his part. I can remember my mother had to take me out of the house to keep him from getting angry all over again and trying to assault me. So I was the smallest six-year-old. I used to get treated like I was a tot when I was six. So she hid me in the neighbor’s house. It was pretty terrible. But I remember being awakened the next morning with a drop of moisture on my cheek. I opened my eyes, and it was my dad crying, and he said, “My little boy, will you ever forgive me?” And I guess it took me a long time to forgive. I forgave, but I didn’t forget.
Capone: That moment when you told him he was a great father, and he said something about you having a bad memory. That’s a great moment in the film.
CS: Yes it was, because he never talked about it. That was his behavior years before, and he did have this awful temper. I saw his uncle do something with his son, because the boy said—somebody made a little toot, so he said, “Beans, beans, the magical fruit. The more you eat them, the more you toot.” And the father went nuts on the boy. He was my uncle, and it was just the three of us in the house. I don’t know where the family had to go. We were up in Canada. And I couldn’t believe he was pounding on that little boy’s head, just because he said that. It wasn’t so terrible. “He’s a boy.” So I really made it a point not to be that way. One time I lost my temper—our dog was being more than aggravating—and I stopped in the midst of what I was doing when I heard myself and I said, “Oh my gosh, I sound like my father.” I prayed right then. I’m not a praying person who does it a lot, but I said, “Lord, let me never act like that again, before man or beast.” And I meant that.
Capone: I don’t think I ever truly appreciated or realized how complicated Big Bird was to operate—the apparatus you have on your chest, and the way your hand has to be up in the air all the time. Have you ever done anything prior to “Sesame Street” that involved a full-body costume like that to prepare you?
CS: Well, I was on the “Bozo” show before that, and there were a lot of costume characters that I played. The Pantomime Rabbit and Mr. Lion, because they had a lion suit. And Grandma Nelly. Bozo, in the films they made, always said, “Whoa, Nelly.” I said, “Why don’t we call her Grandma Nelly?” So she was the funniest character I played. But those weren’t puppets. Those were just costumes.
Capone: Those costumes were closer to your actual size than Big Bird was, right?
CS: Yeah, Big Bird is a costume until you get up to the neck, and that’s where I now have my hand, being a hand puppeteer, up into the head, as you’ve seen. That’s why he’s so tall. He’s literally 8-foot-2. He’s certainly the tallest child—forget child, he’s the tallest human. But he’s not human. [in the Big Bird voice] “I’m not an alien.”
Capone: When you initially took on that character, who decided how to present and operate Big Bird? I always wondered how you saw through it, and now I realize you don’t see through it [Spinney has a small monitor strapped to his chest, that sees what the camera see].
CS: The first year, once in a while, we started with Marconi television cameras. I thought he just invented radio; I didn’t know he was still doing things. So the color and the definition was very poor. The second year, we had RCA cameras, and god, it was like going to Technicolor. So, the first year, my work wasn’t very good. I couldn’t see where I was going, or even see the person I was talking to. But whenever they showed the films, I was always at the studio taping, so I never saw any of them. Once in a while, sometime later, I’d see one replayed and I’d say, “Oh my god. I didn’t know I was that bad.”
The second year, a man named Bob Myhrum was brought in. He was so fast a director and made the show really work. It was he who suggested getting one of those little television sets that people take to football games and make them watch the playbacks, because you don’t get to see them if you’re the person. So I guess at football games they’re looking at the little thing to see the playback, and a whole bunch of guys would run over and look to see the pictures on a one-and-a-half-inch screen. This year, we’ve gone to LEDs and I can barely get the thing in the bird.
Capone: You talked about where you got the voice for Oscar the Grouch [from a cab driver taking him to work], but I don’t think you talk about in the film where Big Bird’s voice, which isn’t that different than yours.
CS: It’s just when I use my own voice, I just go higher. So if I’m talking, I just go up here [he slowly slips into the voice again], and there it is. It sounds cuter, but we try not to be cute because it gets coy.
Capone: It’s fascinating to think that Big Bird is supposed to be a child.
CS: Child-like, I guess, because he’s not like, where’s his mommy and daddy? Birds can live on their own, I guess.
Capone: I remember the Mr. Hooper dying episode. I was much too old to be watching the show regularly, but I remember hearing that that was going to be tackled on the show, and I watched it. Whenever there was a tougher subject to talk about on the show, Big Bird was always brought in as the representative of children’s minds and how kids would process that subjects. Why do you think he became that go-to character?
CS: Well, he’s a complex character that the writers kept coming up with stories where he had to think like a child because of the situation he’d be put into, which I think was darn good for the show, because we reflected the letters we would get from children. Their fears and things would somehow be relieved by seeing Big Bird’s struggle through the same kind of thing. It was very appropriate. It was appropriate for our audience. I don’t think any other children’s shows really had a character to address children in the same way. That’s what helped make our show more unique.
Capone: Do you have to do any physical preparation to play Big Bird?
CS: Sometimes we would tape for four months, then we would be laid off for a good seven or eight months. So when I would travel—Deb and I love music—I’d bring little boom boxes, and they’re just about the right weight to be lifting. so I would do that each day a little bit, just to keep my arm in good shape for that.
Capone: Just lift it for a while?
CS: Yeah, just straight up with a stiff arm, because that’s what I’ve got to do to keep the arm straight and as high as possible over my head. I’m getting relief now, because that fellow [Spinney’s Big Bird understudy] Matt Vogel—Matt Bird [“Vogel” is “Bird” in German], is now doing a lot more of the heavy lifting. I still do the voice. He does the movement, and I do the voice. And so you won’t see much difference. He’s a terrific puppeteer. And I like his moves.
Capone: I just recently saw the short on Funny or Die with Big Bird, Michelle Obama and Billy Eichner in the grocery store. Was that you?
CS: The grocery store one, I was in Ireland when they were doing that. So I think it was probably Matt. But I have worked with her before, and the first thing she said to me was, “Well, cousin, at last we meet.” I was pleased because, actually I’m not related to her, I’m related to her husband.
Capone: Is that true?
CS: Yes, it’s a distant relationship. He’s my ninth cousin, twice removed. I have a letter on the wall where I put a lot of pictures of people I’ve gotten to meet and work with, and it says, “Congratulations on your first 75 years.” [laughs] My first 75. That’s our little humor there. I frankly overall feel he’s been a really good president.
Capone: An interesting point that the film makes—actually, I think it’s Frank Oz that first makes the point—is that Big Bird and Oscar are solo acts on a show where most of the other Muppets take two people to operate, but you do your characters by yourself. Do you sometimes wish that you had been involved with characters that were more collaborative, or does that suit you?
CS: It suits me fine. I must say, I think they were right when they said I was getting a little slower; I was certainly moving around a little slower. Some people only think I’m in my late 60s, which is nice because I’m 81, but on the other hand I do move slower than I used to. It just doesn’t flow as quickly as it used to. Life’s like that, I guess.
Capone: It was my understanding that when Jim Henson asked you to come work for him, that he had already created these two characters and that he was scouting puppeteering conventions to find someone to play them.
CS: Lately there’s this story that he even played a little bit and didn’t think he was right or that he didn’t moved right. But they were never built until I got there, and they took me and built it around me, both of them. Oscar was built only two days before we went on the air.
Capone: I was lucky enough a few years ago to interview Frank Oz. We were able to go through his entire career, so not just as someone on “Sesame Street.” But I was always curious about Grover, because nobody knows what kind of creature Grover is exactly. I always thought that Grover and Oscar were cut from the same cloth, that they were these monster characters.
CS: Strangely, we established one time that Oscar is a grouch, not a monster.
[Both laugh]
CS: I don’t know what the difference is. They’re both furry and odd. But I know I’ve done a few scenes through the 45 years of Oscar meeting Grover. Grover is too sweet and nice for Oscar’s taste. So is Big Bird. Oscar often calls Big Bird a turkey and stuff like that.
Capone: The film makes the case that Oscar is a release valve for your darker side, but I also thought he just lets kids know that it’s okay to be grumpy sometimes.
CS: Yeah, I’ll briefly tell you a little story. This woman who I met at a public appearance, she came over and looked like she was maybe in her mid-50s. A very quiet woman. And she said Oscar changed her life. And I said, “Do tell me.” And she said she was brought up in a house with strong women, four very strong, opinionated women. So she had been denied the television for all those years, and when she was 12, she turned on the TV, because she was home alone and could get away with it, and she flips it around. She finds Oscar telling some grown-up “No.” She said, “I did not know that you could say No to an adult.” And so when they came home, she said, “I was a changed person. Oscar gave me my life that I really enjoyed living ever since, because I became myself.” I was just so pleased that Oscar could teach something that proved to be so positive.
Capone: Some parents might not think that being told no by their kids is particularly positive.
CS: [laughs] But it was a situation that wasn’t in a realistic upbringing. So it was very positive for her, overall. I’m sure they must have been happy the way she turned out. She came out a very nice person.
Capone: It sounds like it took a while to really nail down Oscar’s personality, that there were some adjustments—how mean he should be, should he have a heart of gold?
CS: That was the opinion of [writer, director, producer] Jon Stone. I always felt like he wanted to have Oscar have a heart of gold. I don’t know if that’s it or not, because we used to have such a cordial relationship when we started. He was a huge fan of the Muppets, and I came along and I was there everyday being properly funny. I don’t know if that was the reason why he suddenly was never very warm to me anymore. I was disappointed, because I liked his work. I worked hard on the show; I interpreted his stuff very well. He was a writer for a long time.
Capone: I haven’t even asked you about your relationship with Jim Henson, but in terms of being a collaborator, can you talk about the way he worked as a collaborator with you and the other puppeteers?
CS: I guess we didn’t collaborate that much except, for instance, after we built the bird I said, “Jim, how do you want me to play this? Is he a card, or does he talk like a parrot? What’s he like? I don’t know what to do.” And he said, “Take your own play on it.” So for instance, after I turned him into the child, which I did early in the first year, he never even noticed. He was so busy. He was satisfied with how I worked, so he didn’t watch it. We made the movie in 1982, FOLLOW THAT BIRD, we played the music I would be singing. “One little star shining high in the blue” in a very soft, sweet voice instead of [done in a low voice that almost sounds like Goofy] “One little star shining up in the blue.” That’s the way he had the impression I used to do it. He said, “The voice is very nice, but that’s not Big Bird. I said, “Jim, I went away from that in the first year.” He was just wonderful. I loved working with him. He was never critical, but he was also supportive. If he liked something, he’d let you know. It was great. When he died, it was like the end of Camelot.
Capone: It was for the fans, too. I can’t believe how long ago he died. It was so much longer than I remembered.
CS: Yes. As a matter of fact, Saturday [May 16] is the anniversary of his death. Twenty-five years.
Capone: In more recent years, Big Bird was at the center of the whole Mitt Romeny thing because he was threatening to take away PBS funding if he became presdient. How did the show react? Did they not want you to get involved in talking about it or politics?
CS: They didn’t want me to talk on the phone with anyone because they asked very political questions, and Sesame Street has always felt the need to not choose either party, because we’re pretty much a two-party system. I said, “You should let me answer the phone. I’ll say ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about. A debate? I thought we had a king.’” So Debbie would answer the phone and say, “He’s not here.”
Capone: One of the things I really loved about the film was seeing what a great artist you are, a drawer. The drawings we see are really beautiful. And I wasn't aware that you did that. Was there ever a time in your life where you made a living doing that? Or was that always something you did on the side?
CS: Yeah, well I used to do animated films too, starting about 1958, after I turned Disney down.
Capone: Yeah, that’s right. That’s in the film.
CS: I walked out with $56 a week, and I thought, surely, I can do better than that. That was pretty low, even for 1958. So within six months, I was making animated films in Boston. But I did that for four years until I realized I’d much rather do TV. I love to draw and I draw a great deal, almost every day. I sold some of my pictures in a little gallery in the next town in this little framing store. They sell my little pictures. It’s not a rich area, so we sell them really reasonably.
Capone: Do you remember a specific moment early on that you realized what a huge phenomenon Big Bird had become, both as the face of Sesame Street and the face of children’s educational television in general?
CS: Every so often it’s come up where the more conservative politicians talk about ending PBS. Why should we spend money on the arts? I pointed out to one of those people talking that way, I said, “In Europe, sometimes they’re budget is a sixth of their national money they have to use and they’ll support the arts.” And they say, “Well, it shouldn’t be. The arts should be supporting themselves.” So that’s what they feel, I figure let the majority rule, unless the whole bunch of them are nuts. But anyway, every time they do that, the newspapers often use the power of political cartoons, and Big Bird is always for years—even when he was not so prominent on the show with Elmo taking over so much—would be used as the symbol of PBS, and that certainly popped up with Mr. Romney.That it was definitely a mistake for him. I don’t want to be political.
Capone: Carroll, it’s an immense pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for taking the time. You’re just going to keep doing this, aren’t you? You’re just going to keep doing it until you can’t do it anymore.
CS: I look at it this way, how could I ever walk away from having the chance to be Big Bird?
Capone: That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so much.
CS: Thank you, I hope you have a good time putting it together.
