French-born director Pierre Morel began his career as a camera operator and cinematographer, primarily working with his longtime collaborator Luc Besson (but not always), on such works as THE MESSENGER: THE STORY OF JOAN OF ARC, TAXI 2, THE DREAMERS, THE TRUTH ABOUT CHARLIE, THE AMERICAN, BEFORE SUNSET, TRANSPORTER and TRANSPORTER 2, UNLEASHED, and WAR.
In 2004, he stepped into the director’s chair with the truly awesome DISTRICT B13 (working from a script co-written by Besson), a film that introduced many to the wonders of Parkour and action star David Belle. In 2010, Morel also helmed the John Travolta-Jonathan Rhys Meyers film (from a Besson story) FROM PARIS WITH LOVE. But it was his 2008 handling of TAKEN (co-written by, you guessed it, Luc Besson) that not only propelled his career as a director of action, but it showed that he was smart enough to cast Liam Neeson, an actor at the time known primarily for drama, in an action lead, giving us a character whose dilemma we actually cared about and an actor who could pull off emotion when required. TAKEN certainly sent Neeson’s career in a different direction, and made Morel a filmmaker who has the ability to take slightly older dramatic actors and make them action stars.
Which brings us to THE GUNMAN, starring Sean Penn, in his first true, balls-out actioner, as a mercenary and hired killer who is troubled by some of the things his job has required of him, tries to lead a better life, and ends up a target for assassination anyway. The film co-stars Javier Bardem, Jasmine Trinca, Mark Rylance, Ray Winstone, and Idris Elba, so there’s no shortage of talent on the screen. And THE GUNMAN marks the first time Morel hasn’t worked with Besson’s name in the credits. I had the chance to sit down with Morel in Chicago recently, the morning after a post-screening Q&A of THE GUNMAN, and he really knows his stuff and what he’s trying to achieve with an actor like Penn as a collaborator. Please enjoy my talk with Pierre Morel…
Capone: Were you attached to this before Sean Penn, or was he already there when you came aboard?
Pierre Morel: Kind of a double thing. I was attached to it, you know how it works, in a previous iteration of the film, when it was not Sean, and we were trying to cast it. And then it fell apart, but the producers back then knew I was interested. So when [Joel] Silver got Sean on board, they called me back, “Oh, we got Sean. Would you be interested in making it?” I was like, “Yeah!” So it was a double process—I was in, I was out, Sean got in, I was back in.
Capone: I don’t know who you had lined up before him, but when you hear Penn’s name, that’s a whole different ball game than most other actors.
PM: Yeah, absolutely. It’s also scary.
Capone: Was it scary? Tell me about that first meeting.
PM: It’s scary because every single movie in his body of work is impressive. And even if the movie is not, he’s impressive. Movies like GANGSTER SQUAD I’m not a big fan of, but his part was great. He’s always trying to do different characters in every movie. That’s also one of the things I think is interesting: actors don’t repeat themselves. It always changes. Every single movie is a different character. It’s not like some actors who keep repeating the same over and over again.
It’s intriguing to know why he want’s to do action. You’re impressed, because you go, “Okay. I’m going to deal with one of the greatest guys alive.” And the you wonder about his reputation, but you just go on from there. I didn’t meet him face to face the first time, it was on the phone. I was in Paris, he was in LA. And we just talked for an hour plus about what it was we liked in the script. How would I see it? What was he interested in? We just riffed for an hour. That was in the early stages of the script, the early draft, and we talked about what was not working, what was dated, what we wanted to add to it. And from there on, from the first contact, we seemed to be in the same place. When I went to LA and we really met, and spent some more time.
Capone: Did he give any indication why he wanted to try something that was so action oriented and physical?
PM: I think he wanted to try a new genre.
Capone: Something he hadn’t done before.
PM: Yeah, I think it’s the challenge. There’s a time when it’s like, “Now’s the time to try that.” But with the right characters. I wouldn’t call him in to do TRANSPORTER 4, which is a great movie, probably, but not for him. So yeah, I think he found maybe in the early script that it was not just for action for action’s sake, there was more to the character. There were layers. I think he felt like he could add some of that. Because in the book, it’s like a little too simple. The relationship between him and her is completely different. It’s more cynical, it’s also more immature. So we wanted to make it more trusting and a lot nicer.
Capone: In that initial phone call, is that when he started to bring in these ideas that were personal to him?
PM: Yeah, we had that same inspiration on that, but he started talking about things that are not in the movie at all, and we were just riffing, “What about this? What about that?” But there were already some ideas that we did use—her working for an NGO, him being mercenary-ish. These moments were there, but not at all like it is now. It’s evolved.
Capone: At the same time, was he also interested in upping the more emotional stakes of the film?
PM: That was the main goal we had together on that first phone call; we don’t want to make just an action piece. I think there’s more to it than that. From the minute I knew Sean was interested, that was one of the main proposals: elevate the action genre.
Capone: Of course. Was the idea that the character was a surfer his idea, too?
PM: [laughs] We wanted a break.The surfing scene was not just about surfing. There was actually an early version of it where actually it was just a contemplative moment of him years ago by the sea just in his own thoughts. And then yeah, maybe in the call or a conversation, the sea became a moment of his introspection, where he could be on his own with nothing else to do but think. The surfing idea came, and because he’s a surfer, Sean was like, “I could do that.” But it was not about the surf; it was about the introspection. It’s the turning moment between the past and what’s going on now. We don’t want to jump right away into being a new man and doing NGO work and being a good guy. There was that introspective moment where it’s like, “I’ve been doing bad things, and now I’m on my own with my surfing, at the sea, thinking about that I’ve done.”
Capone: It is an interesting transition to go from that very dark point in his life, to get there, and we have no idea where he is initially. But it does let us know that something in his life has definitely changed. We also see that something has relaxed about him, that is not the intense guy that he was in the beginning.
PM: I think that the music is important in the moment. It’s not a happy moment. I tried to get that music transition actually in the soundtrack, that’s why it’s frantic and dark, and there’s a droning quality that makes those surfing images not just surfing images. It’s this lingering thing that’s not a good moment. It’s relaxing in a way, but not quite.
Capone: So when you’re actually directing him in an action sequence—and you said last night he did 100 percent of his own stunt work—how did he take to that? What were the directions you found yourself giving him the most in any scene?
PM: Action is action. Apart from getting the action right, it’s all about getting things impressive and making them work. And then within that not losing the reason for the fight. That’s almost the easy part. It’s very technical and very demanding. It’s just going over and over again until it’s good, and not forgetting why they are fighting and the condition he’s in, and that’s it. Most of the time it’s about hit, hit, hit, and do this, do that. You don’t say, “Sean, do this do that.” You don’t say to any of those actors, “Do this, do that.” It’s more about, “Why do this, why do that?” So it’s all about taking it back to the backstory, and then the choreographer just deals with the action itself.
Once again, if you define the characters right early on in the prep, in the writing, and why the guy is doing this at that moment of his life, then the directions are more like tiny little trims on the day, not re-inventing the character every day. Once you are on the same page with Sean about what the guy is doing, and what is happening in his life, and what his goals are, what his issues are, he assimilates all this in his method acting, I guess. And then gives it back, and so it’s just a little adjustments of camera positions or pace.
Capone: You sometimes hear about actors that are really good in each take at giving you something a little different so you have options to choose from in the editing room. Was that the case with him?
PM: It is, it is. But not crazy, because you have to adhere to the character. If it was comedy, you could do that. We did that with John Travolta, for instance, on FROM PARIS WITH LOVE. He was giving me a Chinese menu, from like this to this. So I could play with it.
Capone: It seems more appropriate with that character that you could go in at so many different directions.
PM: It’s crazy. It’s comedy. It’s not supposed to be serious. So you canibuild up on the editing room as much as you can or want. When it comes to Sean and THE GUNMAN, it’s not. It’s just tiny little things. It’s more about more tension, less tension. More aggressive or not. There are moments where we kept takes that were in the middle range, but there are takes where he’s like going crazy. Then you fix it, you pick the right one in post, in the editing, which makes sense for the overall arc.
Capone: But then you get a character like the one Javier Bardem plays, who you could give a little more leeway in that crazy range.
PM: Yeah, we did. The final scene in the bedroom with him, we shot that for several days. The scene with all three of them in the bedroom, which escalates to an extent. We spent a lot of time on that scene, because it’s a weird choreography with three people, and they all have a different perspective on what’s going on. She’s completely unaware of what’s going on. Sean knew what was going to happen, so that’s one perspective. Javier’s character is another one, and we played for several days on that. We got different levels of craziness and drunkenness and despair.
Capone: He’s really good at that, yeah.
PM: He is.
Capone: We were joking about it last night, but in all honesty, you can’t help but look at Sean Penn in his several shirtless scenes in this film. When you got a look at how in shape he was, did you say, “We need to get your shirt off a few more times just to show what a 54-year-old guy could look like.”
PM: I’m jealous.
Capone: His arms scared me. They’re so big, and you can see the veins in them. They photograph beautifully.
PM: Yeah, he did a lot of work, so you want it to pay off.
Capone: He’s even a smoker in the film. But at the same time, he can keep that physique.
PM: He was very, very reasonable during the shoot. He actually quit smoking during the shoot. He wasn’t smoking for real. He used electric cigarettes, and only for the takes he was smoking. There’s no way you can keep that level of energy if you’re a smoker. There’s no way. You have to make those concessions. When you do one- or two-minute action piece of that intensity, it takes days to shoot it—12-hour days of jumping and kicking each other. You just can’t breathe. Your heart’s going to explode if you don’t stop smoking. He doesn’t compromise. When he does a character, he does 100 percent of the character. That’s his gift; that’s why he’s Sean Penn. He doesn’t compromise.
Capone: Knowing that, I was thinking, “Why would his character be a smoker?” Then I remembered that a lighter comes into play in the film.
PM: It was not only because that. It does help, that’s for sure. You need at some point to have a cigarette. It’s also very realistic. We met a lot of those guys, and they smoke. It’s stress relief, and sometimes they have to smoke.
Capone: This is not the first time you have taken an actor mostly known for dramatic work and put him in an action setting. And that certainly done wonders for people you’ve worked with like Liam Neeson and Jason Statham. In some ways, they’re involvement with you has steered their careers in completely different directions from that point forward.
PM: Jason is a great actor. I would love to see him again in a movie where it’s more like what he did with Guy Ritchie. LOCK, STOCK, he’s that crazy guy with that crazy accent. And then the TRANSPORTER came, and then he became Frank Martin forever.
Capone: Right. But I’ll tell you, he was in THE BANK JOB. It’s just a terrific acting work. It’s a heist film, but it’s not an action film, and he’s really, really good in it.
PM: That is really good. He’s a great actor.
Capone: So my point is, it makes such a difference and makes you care so much more about these characters than just to have them be bodies attached to guns. Great actors will make us care about their characters.
PM: You care because they’re not cookie-cutter characters. Because they have depth, they have layers of complexity. You can relate to them immediately. I’m not a killer, you’re not a killer, nobody’s a killer.; nobody knows a mercenary, more than likely. But because they’re human, because they have issues, then you can relate to them. Because then they are, like you said, a body attached to a gun. Then you don’t get that level of actors. If a character is written as a body attached to a gun, you don’t get Sean Penn, you don’t get Liam Neeson, you don’t get those guys, because it’s not interesting to play.
Capone: I mentioned last night, this is the fist film that you’ve done that has had no connection with Luc Besson. What did you learn most from him about being a director, about working with actors, just from watching him as his cinematographer and camera operator?
PM: It’s tough to summarize. He has a very specific way to direct actors. I think what I learned, and what we both do, is that he operates by getting very close to his actors on the set. You’re not in video village, 20-30 feet away, running back and forth; you’re right there. So the proximity actually does help communicating, and within the take, you make tiny adjustments that the actor is going to respond to right away. It’s a good way for the process to work. And the pacing of the movie is something I learned, not only in the edit, but on the set.
Capone: You mean keeping things moving?
PM: Yeah, keeping things moving. Then when you linger on something, it shows, it plays because everything is long, and it feels even longer. But when things are moving fast, tyou can play with the pace, you can slow down naturally, because that is going to have an impact. I like that.
Capone: Going back to Sean Penn for a second, did your perception of him at the end of this process change at all? What were maybe some of the notions you had about him that were confirmed or turned out not to be true?
PM: I always try not to have any preconceived ideas of the people I work with. For real. I never talked to people that actually worked with them. I didn’t call anybody else and say, “How’s Sean?” Everybody’s different, so everybody would respond differently. But no, he has a lot of humor and loves joking and fun.
Capone: Looking back at some of the things that you’ve done, you your close-contact action scenes are so well done. They make me wince. Every punch and every stab, you feel. What is the key? You said before you get right in there with the actors, but what is the key to getting those scenes the way you want them and to make us feel the pain?
PM: You choreograph them according to that. You want it to hurt. You really want it to hurt. It has to be gritty. If you want to summarize it, it’s not about glamorizing or glorifying violence. I’m not trying to make it too graphic. It is graphic violence in MPPA’s mind, I guess. But it’s not graphically designed. So it doesn’t make it nice. It’s not a nice picture. It’s just gritty. You’re with them, it’s alive, so it makes it more realistic. So that’s why it hurts. Yeah, it’s not about making it look cool. It’s about making it look hard.
Capone: I joked about it last night, but in truth, the reason that stuff gets to me is that could happen to me while I’m walking down the street. I’m not likely to get hit by a sniper while I’m walking down the street, but someone can just literally walk up to me…
PM: …and stab you! But I always try to show—I don’t know how I do itI’m not very smart. I’m just a very instinctive director and shooter, but violence hurts, and it’s about showing that it hurts, and it’s devastating.
Capone: So many action movies don’t let you think it hurts. If you get punched in the face, you’re going to feel that.
PM: Yeah. In real life, a fight will last three seconds. In a real bar fight, the first guy who hits wins. That’s it. Done. You go down. In movies, they have to fight forever. Even in the boxing ring—and those two guys are trained—after a minute, they have to break, because they are exhausted. So it hurts. Just like the sniper bullet in the beginning, those rounds, literally, they would be obliterated. The imagination humankind has put into making destructive weapons is fantastic. It’s just a .50 caliber bullet, but it literally explodes and blows you into smithereens. It’s not fun. When it hits anything, it expands into energy.
Capone: I think you got that point across pretty well.
PM: It hurts. It does damage. It’s not cool. Even me, I like guns for what they are as an object, I guess. I have fun looking at those, and I have fun making action movies, but I keep in mind that the real thing is not a cool thing.
Capone: Do you know what you’re doing next?
PM: I don’t.
Capone: So THE KILLER, what is that?
PM: We’re working on that. It’s a cool project. I hope it’s going to be the next thing. It’s a series of books by a British writer. So we’re adapting the first one now. I just received the first pages, basically. So it’s not there yet.
Capone: What is the basic premise?
PM: It’s an operator, a killer again. It’s called THE KILLER. He’s a hitman. I’m always trying not to make hitmen like movie hitmen. The hitman we always represent in movies doesn’t exist. In THE GUNMAN, he’s supposed to be a hitman. In the book, he’s a hired killer. This is more complex than that. So this guy is an operator. He’s hired to remove people, let’s say. Could be by agencies, could be by other people, CIA. And then he has to fight with old enemies, like spies, the Russians, and private guys—a whole group of people that have an interest in making him disappear. So it really is a spy genre. It can be cool. I’d like to make it with the BOURNE energy—not to copy Paul Greengrass, who I’m a huge fan of. But it’s in that type of fast-paced spy genre.
Capone: So that’s another potential franchise that you only do the first one of and then abandon?
PM: [laughs] I don’t know why I do that. My banker hates me.
