If for some reason, you aren’t planning on seeing the exceptional incisive and moving film SELMA, take this time to reconsider that decision. Directory Ava DuVernay’s film is far from just a history lesson concerning Dr. Martin Luther King’s 1965 campaign to secure equal voting rights via an epic march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama. She uses the opportunity to turn the icon back into a human being, with all flaws included. The film does not shy away from dealing with King’s troubles at home or how he knew exactly how to manipulate the nation’s political system to push those in power to act now for civil rights, instead of waiting for things to happen “in time.”
A former Hollywood publicist, DuVernay (who is also featured in a lovely segment of the Roger Ebert documentary LIFE ITSELF) is familiar with intimate filmmaking. Her previous two features—2010’s I WILL FOLLOW and 2012’s MIDDLE OF NOWHERE—are well worth seeking out and watching. The latter of the two also starred her SEMLA star, David Oyelowl, who plays King as both a great thinking as well as orator, and as a man who knew how to work a room as well as he worked a crowd.
A graduate of the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art in the late 1990s, Oyelowo has been seen by most Americans largely in supporting roles in such films as THE LAST KING OF SCOTLAND, Kenneth Branngh’s AS YOU LIKE IT (as Orlando), HBO’s THE NO. 1 LADIES’ DETECTIVE AGENCY series, RISE OF THE PLANET OF THE APES, THE HELP, RED TAILS, LINCOLN, JACK REACHER, THE BUTLER, and most recently as the school principal in INTERSTELLAR. He’s also currently voicing the character of Agent Kallus in the “Star Wars: Rebels” animated series, and you’ll have a chance to see him soon in a really great role in A MOST VIOLENT YEAR, from writer-director J.C. Chandor.
I had a chance recently to sit down with DuVernay and Oyelowo in Chicago to discuss the process of turning the myth back into a man, and showing us a time in U.S. history that was both painful and exceptional. Please enjoy…
Capone: I see this film as the process of taking an icon and reclaiming his humanity. What were some of the initial steps that you took to make sure that this was not the story of a saint, that this was more about the human being who lived these events?
Ava DuVernay: I just really hate historical dramas, period. I just really don’t enjoy them as a genre, so when I was given the opportunity, and really had to face the task of doing it, even before dealing with King, I had to deal with within myself, what do I not like about historical dramas? How do I bridge the distance that I always feel from those? And then you get into the “King” of it all. My father is from Montgomery, Alabama. The King loomed so large in the African-American community. You walk into a house in the south and you’re going to see Jesus and Dr. King and now Obama on the wall. So it’s like, how do you really get inside? And for me, as an independent-minded filmmaker, what’s interesting about him--I was a Black Studies major at UCLA, I’m more of a Malcolm X-Black Panther’s kind of gal, so I really had to challenge myself to get beyond what I and most people think of King, which is non-violent, softer guy, and really understand the real ferocious strategy that went into what he did and the bravery in that and the beauty in that. And as I researched it, it really started to change my idea of the movement, and I just wanted to make sure other folks know what I now know.
Capone: I was actually surprised to learn how calculating and shrewd he was about pitting people against each other in order to bring them together. He wanted to be friends with President Johnson, but at the same time, he knew he had to force his hand to get him to do things—sometimes embarrass him. That was a real eye-opener. Strictly from a performance standpoint, again, we know the speeches, we know the voice, we know the cadence. What do you focus on to make him human and not a speech-making machine?
David Oyelowo: Well, it’s a very difficult balance between tipping the hat to those things you just mentioned there, but also it not being an impersonation. It’s very tricky, and I studied two particular films that I felt had successfully done this in order to try and give myself a chance. I looked at LINCOLN, in terms of Daniel Day-Lewis’ performance in that, and I looked at Denzel Washington’s performance in MALCOLM X. And what I found in both films is that there didn’t seem to me to be an attempt to completely deny their own voices, their own appearance. They did all they could to look as much like those guys as possible, but it was a combination of their humanity and the persona and the essence of this other human being they were portraying. That coming together is what was speaking from their spirit to the spirit of the audience, I believe.
At the end of the day, that’s what cinema does. It’s certainly what theater does. That was my background. No matter what role you’re playing, whether you’re playing a pauper or a prince, there’s something about your spirit that is connecting to the spirit of the audience. And I felt that I just had to do all the work—the voice work, the body work, his very specific dialect, which was a mongrel of a situation, because it’s Atlanta, it’s a bit of Boston, it’s the preacher, but also reacting to the preacher, it’s the intellect, it’s the big words—all of this goes in a blender that then has to get to the point whereby I can do it on the fly. I can do it without having to think about it, because flesh-and-blood people aren’t calculated and technical in the way they speak. Especially not when they’re speaking to their friend in jail, or their wife about the challenges of being on the road. So you put all of that in the blender, and then you hope that your humanity shines through combined with their humanity, and that that speaks to the audience.
Capone: You say that people aren’t calculating when they speak, except when they give public speeches or when they’re preaching. That’s a very calculated thing. Did you find King had different voices for different times? It seems that the public speaker was different than the private speaker or when he was giving an interview. Did you have to find those nuances?
DO: I’m glad you picked up on that, because that’s something we talked about a lot. We call it code switching. And especially as black people in this country, even now, you’ll find that in the public domain, people speak differently than they do with their families at home or with their friends while watching the game, or even with their girlfriend that they’re trying to impress or whatever it is. And yes, he was going through so many spheres of both public, private, and political life. If you’re with the president one day, and then in jail the next, with people who are dirt poor, who are in that jail with you, of course there’s a seismic shift that needs to take place in order for you to be able to relate to the people at their level, which was his gift.
That crept into the accent, that crept into the demeanor. He had to project a certain dignity, a certain intelligence when he was doing an interview that was going to be televised, in which he knew he was going was appealing to the conscience of the nation, a nation that a huge section of which was happy to continue to criminalize black people, subjugate them, deem them lesser than. So he felt he had to take it upon himself to project that that’s not the case. The way he dressed, the way he spoke, all manner of presenting himself. But he could get down with the brothers as well [laughs], which was one of his gifts.
Capone: That’s why I could never be an actor; it’s too exhausting [Everybody laughs]. I feel like at the end of the day you’d just collapse and say, “I’m done.”
AD: I hear you, I hear you. I don’t know how they do it. I really don’t.
Capone: I’ve seen your last two films, Ava…
AD: You have?
Capone: Of course, they both played here. And Roger wrote up the big piece about I WILL FOLLOW, so I had to see it. They’re very small, intimate works. What I loved about SELMA is, I feel like that it’s those moments at home with King and his family, in particular, with his wife, that you really show your strength as a filmmaker. Those are hard to watch scenes. It’s so personal. I felt like, “Maybe I should look over here.” But those are the moments where you’re injecting what you are made of, because those ring so true, and we’ve never seen that before done like this. Was there ever any discussion about “Maybe we don’t need to get into that stuff?”
AD: Gosh, thank you for that observation. I think those moments were really a lot of my way into the material. My previous film was a $200,000 film, this is a $20 million film. You’re deconstructing King, it’s a historical drama, it’s speeches, it’s 500 extras, it’s tear gas, it’s horses, it’s all of that. So my way in as a filmmaker was to just focus on the things that I know, and I know black family, I know love, I know putting a man and a woman in a room and what that feels like, because I had done that before. I really focused on those pieces, and knew I could wrap my arms around that as a filmmaker, and give that a certain voice, a certain tone, a certain tenor, a certain texture. And once that happened, I was able to get my legs and expand into some other areas. But thank you for the compliment. It was just such a big part of what we wanted to do just narratively: Who cares about the things you read in the history books? We want to read between the lines. We want to understand what happened right before he made the speech? We want to see him write the speech. What was the context in which he made the speech?
Capone: You have that great opening when he’s rehearsing.
AD: Yeah. What happened after? Yeah. That’s the stuff I love. The process by which someone becomes great is even more fascinating than their greatness. It helps you appreciate their greatness. That desire to show that side of King, along with my affection or aptitude for showing the quiet moments, came together in a beautiful way. It gave me confidence. At least I know how to do part of this job walking in the door. And the rest I learned on the way.
Capone: What was the key to conquering the stuff you weren’t familiar with?
AD: Just getting in there, jumping in with both feet in the scenes that I knew I had. All the stuff with King and Coretta, all the stuff with those men walking to Richie Jean’s kitchen. When they first walk in, they’re talking over her, they’re introducing each other. I know that. That’s my dad and his seven brothers. All of those scenes I really got, and once you’re in it, and you’re working with the actors, and you’ve got your crew going, then you can say, “Okay, let’s add horses and tear gas to this.” And then it just grows from there. It was a good way to start.
Capone:”Just add horses and tear gas.” You make it sounds so simple.
AD: [laughs] That’s right.
Capone: You mentioned before that you are not a fan of historical dramas, and a lot of what is missing is those is humor. We talked before about how King would manipulate people, and some of those scenes made me laugh. They’re meant to be funny. He knew how to work the system to a degree, like a politician. How do you find places to inject the lighter moments?
AD: I think it’s the nuance of real life. No one’s just a statue or a speech or a holiday. That’s not who he was. He liked a good joke, he smoked Newports. He had a bit of an ego when it came to other leaders who had different points of view. He had a great humility as well. He lived very poorly, because he didn’t want anyone to think he was taking from he movement. If you look at any of us, we’re walking contradictions. And I think it’s great, the things that you’re responding to are just moments of a real man.
The great thing about working with David, and our partner in a lot of scenes with Coretta, Carmen Ejogo, was we would get into the kitchen scene when he’s first saying, “I’m going to have to leave” like a man telling his woman, “I’m going to be gone for a month.” He’s creeping on eggshells. He’s trying to get it in. And we’re trying to figure out how to put some physicality to it, what’s the blocking of this? What are we saying? What’s the subtext? This idea of, what is he looking for in the drawers? A bag to take out the trash. But why doesn’t he know what drawer it’s in? Because he’s never there. He doesn’t even know what drawer it is, so she has to walk across, and she has to hand it to him. These things that are playing underneath the scene itself, you can either look for that stuff or not look for that stuff. If you don’t look for it, then it’s flat, and it’s just the facts. If you look for it, and you have partners who are always mining for those human moments, then I think you get something that’s a little better. So we challenged ourselves, all of us, in every single scene, to try and find that.
Capone: The day we saw this, the first screening here in Chicago for press was the day after the Ferguson indictment didn’t happen.
AD: Oh, wow. Is that right?
Capone: Yeah, so we’re all there talking about it and the coincidence. But I don't think you tell a story like this again and again unless you see modern parallels. Would you even do a film like this unless you thought it was relevant to today?
AD: We’re on a continuum with this stuff. It just keeps happening and happening. So I really feel like the film is an echo through time in a lot of ways. It’s just like 1965 calling to now, and now calling to 1965, and they’re talking to each other, and what they’re saying to each other is “Have things changed? Have they not changed?” It’s a question. But more and more between the Ferguson non-indictment and this Eric Garner thing, it makes me feel like the conversation between now and then is much more tragic in some ways. Fifty years have passed, and I’m not sure how much we’ve progressed. I think this is the same moment repeating itself.
The beautiful thing about it is people will watch SELMA now and not feel like that distance, like you’re watching something that happened then. Especially in the context of the way you watched it, it’s the same thing. It’s the same thing happening again, and so I think without the film, maybe we would feel like this was a new moment in some ways. And perhaps the film for some people that aren’t really aware of history will really be able to illustrate, “Wow. We’re on a hamster…cycle.” What do you call those?
Capone: In terms of the performance, was there a particular scene or sequence that you sweated about the most? One that you really wanted to nail?
DO: I know what you mean. Inevitably, if you’re going to play Dr. King, the speeches are going to be a focus, because that’s what he was famous for, and no one quite comes close in my opinion. When you see him give a speech and he’s taken up with what he’s talking about and the effect it has, no one else quite comes close, I think. And to be the one that has to go out and do that is something that gives you pause. But as much as that was the case, I wouldn’t say I was more intimidated or unsettled by the quiet moments, but they were as important, if not more important, to me.
Every time I’ve seen the film, one of the scenes I’m most proud of—and it’s because it’s juxtaposed with the pyrotechnics of giving the speeches—is the scene between the King and Coretta in the house. For King, it’s a very quiet scene, and it’s a scene in which he is sat, and she is stood, and he is looking up for once, as opposed to being in a pulpit looking down. And for an actor, the greatest gift you’re given in terms of writing, in terms of a role, is nuanced layers and an arc, a discernible arch.
And to see this man known for oratory, known for having a strategy, tactics, and being propulsion and fuel for people to move forward, stuck domestically in a situation where he doesn’t have the tools to get out of this moment, and all he has, by way of a reposte, is the word “No,” which is so deep, far, and wide in terms of the repercussions of that word. That’s a gift for an actor, and so to me, to nail a speech is one thing, but to get that moment to feel true in relation to the other, that is where you’re really doing something. And I think that as a group, we really came together to make that moment work and to be a genuine and satisfying juxtaposition to the more obviously difficult scenes.
AD: Another moment like that that came to mind. It’s the moment with King and Cager Lee in the morgue after Jimmie Lee Jackson is killed, where King is not saying a lot, doing a lot. These instances where David really had to get that internal engine that you have when you’re faced with another human being, and they’re in need. Coretta needed something from him, Cager Lee in that moment needed something from him, John Lewis in the car needed something from him, and not being able to give it or trying to figure out how to give more—all the work that David did beyond speeches. I was quite nervous on speech day, I’ll just say that. But all that other work, that deeply layered work, you take for granted. You say, “Wow, he got the speech, the cadence, the voice, the demeanor, he put on the 30 lbs., he put on the hair, all that stuff. He sounded like King. It’s amazing. But to be able to bring such a depth to those quiet scenes, that’s the stuff that I marvel at.
Capone: Those are two of the only scenes where he buries the ego. He has to step back and let somebody else have their moment.
DO: Great acting is reacting. That’s something I have learned, and I have learned from people who are truly phenomenal at it, who I’ve had the privilege of being on sets with—Judi Dench, being one of them. That woman off the line is just—it’s ridiculous. This film gave me those opportunities in a very satisfying way.
AD: Did you get what you needed? I know we were long winded.
Capone: Absolutely. You were both great. I was just going to say to David, he’s one of the busiest men in show business right now. We just saw A MOST VIOLENT YEAR, which is fantastic.
AD: Isn’t he in every film out? I mean, every single film that’s out this year.
Capone: Thank you both so much. It was really great to meet you. Best of luck with this.
