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‘I Don’t Think I Want That!!’ BOARDWALK EMPIRE Finale!! Antepenultimate HOMELAND!! New MINUTES, AMAZING, BURGERS, ONCE, REVENGE, DEXTER, WIFE And More!!
Desperate to weaken Gyp’s (Bobby Cannavale) alliance with Masseria (Ivo Nandi) and reclaim Atlantic City, Nucky (Steve Buscemi) cedes control of one of his prized assets to Rothstein (Michael Stuhlbarg). Harrow (Jack Huston) returns to Gillian’s (Gretchen Mol) brothel for some unfinished business; Luciano (Vincent Piazza) is forced to take on a new heroin partner after being arrested in New York; Chalky (Michael Kenneth Williams) and Capone (Stephen Graham) put their enmity on hold while taking on Masseria’s men; Margaret (Kelly Macdonald) decides to end one relationship and considers resuming another. Written by Terence Winter and Howard Korder; directed by Tim Van Patten.
Showtime says of “Broken Hearts”:
Brody and VP Walden find themselves at odds.
Premiering tonight:
Fatal Encounters (9pm ID)
Be The Boss (10pm A&E)
Shahs of Sunset (10pm Bravo)
“The Simpsons” was the top-rated series on Fox last week.
“Revenge” hit a season low last Sunday:
Sundays Sept. 23-Nov. 25, 2012
(Adults 18-49; repeats in gray; older weeks in parentheses)
8.5 (---) (8.7) (---) (9.5) (---) (8.2) (---) (8.5) (---) NFL Fox
7.6 (6.9) (7.9) (8.5) (7.0) (6.7) (7.7) (7.2) (9.0) (8.7) NFL NBC
5.4 (4.9) (5.6) (4.9) (5.4) (5.1) (5.8) (---) (---) (---) Walking Dead
3.3 (2.4) (3.2) (2.6) (---) (---) (---) (3.1) (3.8) (1.5) The Simpsons
3.1 (---) (2.7) (3.5) (3.4) (3.3) (3.0) (3.4) (3.9) (---) Once Upon A Time
2.9 (2.6) (2.5) (2.5) (---) (---) (---) (3.4) (3.3) (1.9) Family Guy
2.5 (2.4) (2.5) (2.6) (2.5) (2.6) (2.6) (2.6) (2.5) (---) Amazing Race
2.2 (---) (2.5) (2.7) (2.7) (2.8) (2.6) (2.6) (3.2) (---) Revenge
2.0 (1.8) (2.4) (1.8) (---) (---) (---) (2.3) (2.5) (1.5) Bob’s Burgers
2.0 (1.6) (---) (1.9) (---) (---) (---) (2.2) (---) (1.1) Cleveland Show
1.8 (1.4) (1.9) (1.8) (1.8) (1.5) (2.1) (1.6) (2.1) (1.1) The Mentalist
1.6 (1.6) (1.4) (1.7) (1.3) (1.3) (1.4) (1.5) (---) (---) AFH Videos
1.6 (1.7) (1.7) (1.7) (1.8) (1.9) (1.7) (1.7) (1.8) (---) The Good Wife
1.6 (3.0) (1.6) (3.4) (1.7) (3.6) (2.0) (3.6) (1.7) (2.7) 60 Minutes
1.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Soul Train Awards
1.2 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Apollo Live
1.2 (1.2) (1.2) (1.6) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Real Housewives Atl
1.2 (---) (1.2) (1.3) (1.6) (1.7) (1.5) (1.7) (2.1) (---) 666 Park Avenue
1.1 (1.0) (1.1) (1.1) (1.0) (1.0) (1.2) (---) (---) (---) Talking Dead
1.0 (1.1) (1.1) (1.0) (1.2) (1.1) (1.0) (1.1) (1.3) (---) Dexter
1.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Liz & Dick
0.9 (1.1) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Sister Wives
0.8 (0.8) (0.7) (0.7) (0.7) (0.8) (0.8) (0.9) (0.9) (1.0) Boardwalk Empire
0.8 (0.9) (0.8) (0.8) (0.9) (0.8) (0.6) (0.8) (0.7) (---) Homeland
0.7 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Cougar Wives
0.7 (0.5) (0.6) (0.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Next Iron Chef
0.6 (---) (0.5) (0.5) (0.5) (---) (0.6) (---) (---) (---) Comic Book Men
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Chopped
0.5 (0.5) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Finding Bigfoot
Readers Talkback
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Will miss The Empire after tonight, and the Walking Dead as well. Kind of liked the Interesting end of Dexter's Episode last week, but as usual with Dexter more questions about sloppy police work, plot holes, and logic. However, I'm too invested in the show to stop watching now.
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I'm thinking he lives. They've set it up for him to head off with his girl and the kid, getting rid of Jimmy's mom in the process. Two stories neatly tied up in one. Wouldn't make any sense for him to be killed off. Superb show. Wonderful.
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but I can't wait to see what happens tomorrow!
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boardwalk had one of its best ever last week, must be football giving the Simpsons the high ratings
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There's a preview clip where she meets with Gyp and says she wants to leave and he doesn't let her, because he's afraid of who she might run to with info. So I could see her trying to escape with her kid, but she gets caught, Gyp kills her, and Harrow shows up and cleans house.
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I'd say it's more likely that Gillian kills Gyp. There's a preview showing her getting into bed with him, and we all know what happens to...well, ANY guy who sleeps with her. Especially that last guy. Plus, that's the kind of swerve the show would take-you expect a big showdown with Gyp and Nucky, but he's taken care of in a unrelated storyline. After that, Nucky would kind of owe Gillian, I guess. I'm pretty sure Nucky's going to have to give loads to Rothstein for his help, he'll sink a tonne into Chalky's club, and then he owes Gillian...season 4 would probably have Nucky in a very weak, compromised position. Then it might be him vs on the rise Capone and (fingers crossed) bootlegger Van Alden
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Walking Dead mid season finale, BE season finale, Homeland, and a day full of compelling football. While Gyp's death seems certain, I wouldn't be shocked to see more characters go. Gillian, Margaret, Dunn and especially Eli are all prime suspects. Some people have fears for Harrow. With where the ratings are, I don't think anyone has to worry about Harrow disappearing as he arguably the most popular character on the show.
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He's a terrible actor and Richard shouldn't be bogged down taking care of him. Wonder if we'll ever see Richard's sister that he mentions?
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They've been leading up to this for so long, been knocking Nucky down and just kicking him over and over again. It's time for some payback all around....
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They've been leading up to this for so long, been knocking Nucky down and just kicking him over and over again. It's time for some payback all around....
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Dec. 2, 2012, 9:38 a.m. CST
Surprised at Boardwalk's low rating. Dexter has been meh. Glad it's its last season.
by mistergreen
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Dec. 2, 2012, 10:29 a.m. CST
People complain about Jimmy's sons acting...I think the kid is hilarious.
by Tim
Genuinely, I don't think his acting is distracting, and I really do find him funny in a cute little kids are funny sort of way.
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It's depressing enough once NFL gets past week 12, but with Boardwalk ending as well, Homeland on the back end, Walking Dead taking it's ridiculous mid-season break, Sunday nights are soon to be barren until March when Game of Thrones returns.
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I revisited Series 2 over this weekend being ill in bed. Jesus, the series on FIRE and Doakes as a character was exceptionally strong. It was interesting, had a fantastically dark sense of humour, Rita wasn't as annoying as I remember, LaGuerta wasn't as one note, the BHB hunt was compelling, Lyla was sexily batshit insane and generally the show walked the fine line between being trashy entertainment and dramatically addictive. What was surprising is that how much some episodes really did have Dexter unravelling and you almost wanting Doakes to win. <p> Hopes for the S7 Finale and S8? Go nuts. Bring back Doakes as a disfigured arsonist seeking revenge. Have Debs and Dexter kill Hannah then make out over her corpse. Have LaGuerta discover and expose Dexter. Let the FBI rip apart the individual failings of all of the Miami Metro team for their Seven years of stupidity. Let Series 8 be Dexters code falling apart, being on the run around Miami offing drug lords et al out of the inability to stop whilst Zombie Doakes burns shit up, Debs breaking down completely, The FBI tries to track em both and the remains of the Metro team go rogue in an attempt to get Dexter first and earn redemption. <p> What will actually probably happen for the S7 finale? Hannah gets chopped on Dex's table after threatening Debs life, LaGuerta twigs about Dexter in the final quarter of an hour after busting Debs hiding evidence relating to Doakes - earning her to say 'SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER', Doakes turns up throughout the episode instead of Harry to monologue with Dex, and it concludes with Debs having no choice but to inject Laguerta and line up Dex's tools to silence her. Last shot - Debs plunging a knife through her heart and Dex walking in pretty much in a mirror reverse of the end of S6 <p> I look forward to being proven completely wrong.
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....and everybody is about to use them. It's going to be awesome.
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I'm usually dreading 900 to roll around on a Sundays ... But I CAN'T WAIT FOR BOARDWALK EMPIRE TONIGHT. Ill be pissed if Harrow dies. Bad enough Jimmy bought it ... Owens too. By the way- $5 says if Vaugn directs Star Wars, Owens gets casted.
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if they wanted to kill him theyd have done it last season. and i agree with rawbeats, tommy's funny. and i havent gotten distracted by his acting at all.
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...and I'm glad I did! Surprisingly, this season low episode set in 2006 was the show's best episode yet. Too bad we have to return to the present day. Unless they resolve the way-too-many and who-cares plot lines, it's still on my endangered list.
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Because then it would make Harrow a cold-blooded killer when he returns to the brothel. We saw a clip where there was blood splattered on his mask - most likely not his own. So he goes back there and cleans house. What's he going to do? Kill a woman and take her son? I don't think so. If anything, he'll find Gillian dead, kill Gyp, and take Tommy so he's a hero, not a kidnapping villain.
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and I think that's when Gyp will kill her.
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It would defeat the purpose of his entire arc up to this point. As someone else said, if they wanted to kill Eli, it would have happened last season. He's here to stay (for now). Also, I'd bet real money that Gyp ends up being offed by his own guys, specifically Tonino.
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I agree that Gillian could end up killed, but one thing about Gyp so far, for the most part we haven't seen him kill women. He used one as a shield when Benny tried to shoot him, but I can't think of a time he killed one. If anything he seems overly chivalrous toward them. Eli will probably make it, but again, there has to be some surprise death. That being said, I'm not so sure Margaret might not be the big surprise death tonight. We haven't really seen how Nucky is going to deal with her, and he could have her killed and blame Gyp for it. It would be a perfect out. If we look at the first preview clip from earlier this week, when we see Nucky on the boardwalk, his wedding ring is gone.
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Dec. 2, 2012, 3:17 p.m. CST
I'm not hating, so please don't hate. Regarding the Boardwalk Empire ratings...
by Jaka
...the show has been boring as hell his season. Or maybe it's just that it feels like more of the same. I'm a huge fan of this show - watched every episode, most of them at least twice - but it just didn't move me this season.
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In fact, for me, only last season was a miss. The rest of them are good-to-great and are all worth a re-watch. But you could actually skip nearly all of last season and still know exactly what is going on this season.
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Your comment has nothing to do with BE ratings ... and as you can see, everyone else is having terrific fun with Boardwalk Empire this season. Sorry you're not.
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Even my more ADD, need guns and blood, friends are loving this shit
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Dec. 2, 2012, 4:37 p.m. CST
/agree Jaka... Dexter is great where the entire summary of BE is on wikipedia
by blhotz
BUT, Boardwalk Empire is pretty damn good this year and has actually got me wanting to go back and see the other seasons. GOOO DEXTER - let's see an awesome series finale... like ~14 episodes left!
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Definitely looking forward to the season ender. I said earlier that I think Harrow goes down tonight, and I still think that's possible; He goes on a rampage in the brothel, Gillian uses the kid as a shield long enough so that Gyp shoots Harrow in the back, etc. It would be loss of a great character, because in his way, Richard Harrow is one of the most morally responsible and ethical people on the series, and the actor playing him has conveyed so much with half his face covered. But I do think that its going to be an all out bloodfest on all corners, and Harrow will be given his stage before ( just a guess) he gets taken down. I really hope I'm wrong on this one, but as this show has proven, they'll take chances.
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Dec. 2, 2012, 4:57 p.m. CST
Eli is set up either way. He could off Gyp as I said last week making Nucky uncomfortably indebted to him as a 180 to last year or.....
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 2, 2012, 4:58 p.m. CST
they could be setting up his son as the replacement as they went out of their way twice already to show his kid as the breadwinner and provider. To me it goes either way, but......
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 2, 2012, 5 p.m. CST
example of self-fulfilling prophecy. Would be a major, MAJOR cliffhanger, left field, mind-f@ck for BE fans during the offseason.
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 2, 2012, 5:01 p.m. CST
either way, tonight figures to be very, VERY interesting.....
by sauronthepowerful
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And that's coming from someone who found Season 5 very meh and Season 6 almost enough to drive me away from the show. But Season 7 has been fantastic, definitely as good as any other. These last few episodes do worry me, though. After the Issac situation was resolved and the Hannah storyline has lost some of its edge, I really have no idea where they're going with these last three episodes. This whole "Phantom" storyline feels shoehorned in unless it really does turn out to be a deranged, disfigured Doakes. In which case, that might simultaneously be the biggest shark-jumping moment in recent television history (There's no question that the dude got blown the f*ck* up in Season 2), and yet also the most geek-out worthy moment at the same time. Dexter vs. Doakes in the final season would be the perfect way to end the show if there was even a halfway believable way to bring Doakes back, but going back and watching the episode where he dies again, I just don't see how they can pull it off with any shred of credibility.
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Seriously...people are still crying about Jimmy dying last season, and Owen has a lot of people mad, too. There's no way Harrow dies. In fact, I think Harrow comes out as the hero when it's all said and done to make it up to the crybabies.
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like it would be awesome, but theres no way he could have survived that explosion
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CANNOT<p> F@CKING<p> WAIT!!!!!!!!!!
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yes!...HBO showed an extended Behind the Scenes feature on Season 3 of GoT with actual footage
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Dec. 2, 2012, 8:20 p.m. CST
Mickey really just went wwwaaaaayyyyy down the list.....
by sauronthepowerful
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Fucking love this show
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Been waiting for a display like this for two years. Very nice.
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Fucking Capone.
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...it would be Rosetti's own guy who did him in?
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Dec. 2, 2012, 8:59 p.m. CST
BE is EXACTLY why shows need 1-2 to find their plot legs...
by Judge Briggs
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The Phantom was just some random guy there to help Dexter to another self-discovery. I guess that's probably for the best. But part of me would have loved to see Dexter vs. Doakes for the final season.
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What with Margaret appearing determined to stay away from Nucky, Nucky setting up Rothstein with the Feds, Van Alden's unresolved issues, and the continued rise of Capone.
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Did they just decide a fork to the cheek was a decent enough way to leave him hanging for a year?
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Nucky enforcer???
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...am glad to say I was wrong about Harrow going down, although given the aftermath, he rescued the boy, but may have ended his relationship, especially when her dad showed him sympathy. Nucky pulling the double double cross on Rothstein....Capone and Chalkie working together just long enough to committ grand carnage. Rosetti getting the ' Et Tu Brutus' from his capo...Gillian down, but not completely out. The last shot is important in Nucky's arc. When he takes the rose off his lapel and tosses it...that's the last piece of the old Facade. He's a full on Gangster now, with no time for social norms. Next season should see the rise of Capone, because he replaces his boss round about this time historically. Van Alden? Oh, I think he's going to resurface in ways we don't get yet. and Harrow? Gun for hire for Nucky, now that he realizes he can't have the civilized life? There is lots to see, and I hope they craft it as well as the first 3 seasons.
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Dec. 2, 2012, 10:05 p.m. CST
One major problem with the finale. Major plot hole.....
by sauronthepowerful
The whole reason Nucky was able to win this war was because Masseria VOLUNTARILY relented and withdrew his support from Gyp.<p> Masseria knew the consequences as would Nucky of this. Why then did Nucky send Gyps aid back to Masseria with the corpse with a veiled threat and talking shit when both parties knew that Masserias voluntary withdrawal of support enabled Nucky to survive by the skin of his teeth. Heck, Masseria even gave up Gyps location.<p> Masseria did this specifically to all a truce through the Rothstein induced compromise. Makes no sense why Nucky would then go and threaten him knowing full well it was Masserias voluntary actions that gave up Gyp.<p> Major plot f*ck up if you ask me.
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You"re a twatwaffle
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Dec. 2, 2012, 10:12 p.m. CST
Itchy is a fucking douche, the finale was awful because....(spoilers)
by Punisherthunder
- No Van Alden - Gyp went out like a punk - Useless Margaret abortion - Waste of Capone - Everyone knew Rothstein was gonna get sold out - Masseria is a tool - Gillian had more screen time than anyone else - No mention of Eddie
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Dec. 2, 2012, 10:18 p.m. CST
judge briggs, of course my comment had something to do with the ratings
by Jaka
The show is getting very low ratings, lower than normal, and I found this season to be slow and more of the same. The two equate to each other very clearly, without an needed explanation, to be honest. Also, since I'm pretty good with grammar and reading comprehension, I'd also like to point out that at no point did I say I wasn't having any "fun". That's something that you made up out of the ether for whatever reason. I said I like the show. I said I watch the show. I always have. It's just my OPINION that this season doesn't measure up to the previous seasons, and that may be why the ratings are a bit lower. Ya know?
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...which may change my mind about a few things.
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Next season could be Chicago centric. In 1924, Torrio and Capone have O'Banion killed. That starts a gang war between the two gangs. Torrio doesn't retire until 1925 after a failed assassination attempt by O'Banion's men though. I'm still hoping the show goes into the 1928/1929 years. That is when Rothstein is killed, Luciano switches to Masseria's side, and the start of the Castellammarese war. Also, it is the height of the war in Chicago including the St. Valentine's Da Masacre. Assuming they continue to stick with the NY and Chicago families, upcoming seasons could be far better than the first three.
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I almost want Harrow to leave the show now, because how the hell do you top that? He's kind of like Omar Little in the sense that he's a merciless murderer who also fiercely clings a code of honor. It'll never happen, but the actor playing Harrow seriously deserves some awards.
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Dec. 2, 2012, 10:53 p.m. CST
A lot of people were heated when they killed Jimmy off last year and declared they were done with BE because of it. It was discussed heavily on these boards and amongst personal friends I know. I wonder if that is the reason for the declining ratings...
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 2, 2012, 10:54 p.m. CST
or is it because Walking Dead has been so good. Either way I thought the finale was excellent.
by sauronthepowerful
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We have a Harrow. Total fucking destruction.
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Thank you HBO...
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Dec. 2, 2012, 11:06 p.m. CST
Great Once Upon A Time Mid-Finale Sucks that all of these shows are ending this early in December Why is that?
by Paul
Anyways looks like everyone is reunited and that Regina is really going to be tested on her turn to good with seeing Emma back with Henry and with Cora trying to turn her back to evil. Plus Hook trying to kill Rumplestilskin. I'm glad that they are continuing the Aurora/Mulan story also.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 12:03 a.m. CST
They couldn't spend five fucking minutes on Van Alden in the fucking season finale? So fucking pissed right now.
by Lily
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Fantastic ending to an incredible season, which may now be my favorite of the 3 so far. Harrow's shootout was one the most exciting scenes I have ever seen on TV or Film. Capone, Chalkie, and their gangs interactions were classic. Nucky continues to prove why he is one the best lead characters in television history. Bravo to Season3 of BOARDWALK EMPIRE, with Season4 looking to be even more incredible. And we still havent even got to Capone taking over Chicago yet. WOW!
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so long, gyp
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There's a thousand things to talk about, but ultimately BE delivered one of the most iconic scenes ever in any serious to date. When a character has reached a level of cool on par with the immortal Omar Little, it's a good time to be a viewer. Fuck that was an awesome scene.
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never saw the assassination of VP Walden coming, or that body would be directly involved. glad to see he is still a villain
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I liked seeing dex's realization that he has no dark passenger, he kills because he likes it
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Is one of those shows that really takes the "season as a book" thing seriously.....it's always a slow burn to the end, and after it's over, I feel like I had the best sex of my life for three months straight. The only things that will console me until the return of Nucky, Harrow, Van Alden, Capone, etc. is Game Of Thrones in March and the 2013 Baseball season.
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...that, doesn't make any sense: Why would she NOT try to give Gyp a lethal dose? It looked like Gyp got all of that dose in her, which means that Gillian wasn't going to give him a lethal dose or she has a higher tolerance for drugs than any other person on the planet. Does this mean we're getting an entire subplot of Gillian trying to find the kid, next season? Zzzzzzz.
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HBO doesn't count ratings like network television. Subscriptions, DVR, and people who watch it on demand matter. Meh, no wonder it's already been renewed for another season. Judging by the comments in this talkback, you're clearly in the minority by saying this season was boring.
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when im up at 4 in the morning, scrolling the talkback right before going to bed, completely forgetting the boardwalk talkback was merged into the sunday talkback since it was seperate for most of the weeks prior, mindlessly hitting expand all, scrolling down and majorly spoiling myself for homeland which i was planning on watching tomorow. fuck me in the asshole god damn it im so livid i don't think ill be able to sleep.
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and Saul won't apprehend him without grabbing his hat first. LOL. Just as well, I suppose, since Nazir seems to have the same elusive power as Habib Marwan. Damian Lewis is great, but his nervous twitch is kinda funny to watch. Welcome back Galvez. Next time, ask the Black Ops guys for some of their magical healing elixir.
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for dropping that bomb with no warning. Now I know not to ever read merged talkback threads if I had to DVR a show for a day. I'm hoping that did not really happen, but I'm sure it did.
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(1) Established that Harrow is the baddest man in the world, which makes it great that he's a wild card, (2) Showed Gillian arguably trying to do something selfless demonstrating heretofore unshown depth of character, (3) re-established -realistically - the bond between Nucky and Eli, (4) Showed Nucky being essentially the swing vote in inter-mob politics making Seasons 3+ very promising, (5) Limited Margaret, (6) Established the schism between Luciano and Rothstein that will be significant next season, (7) Laid the foundation for the rise of Chalky's influence over the next season. As for Masseria being a "douche" - Masseria was not that interested in Atlantic City - that was Gyp's operation. His ambivalence was appropriate: He got out as soon as someone offered him what seemed to be a sure bet. The ONLY thing this finale was missing was Van Alden, and as he had no real story line to progress right now, that made sense. Van Alden's limited use this season reminds me quite a bit of The Wire, where characters' prominence ebbed and flowed from season to season as storylines warranted. I'm sure he'll be front and center next year.
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That woudl be a bit obvious and hard ot explain to, at the time, 40 men down stairs. Instead she wanted to drug him then choke him out, making his death look like an accidental thing. As far as Nucky/Capone killing Joe's men...why not? Nucky made a deal with Rothstein, Joe pulled his support. Nucky never made a deal directly with him. It also makes AR look stupid if he did offer them safe passage. Which will go well with him being busted for the property Doyle was at. AR, as we saw at the end of another season finale, was bested by Nucky. The icing on the cake was that Doyle got to play a big part in it.
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It was a pretty good season finale. Nuck won be back over, I was pissed about Jimmy. But he won be back over plus Gyp was a great villain this season.
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Hopefully we'll see more of him next year. Quote of the show= "Who the fuck was the guy in the mask?" (paraphrasing) ... but wouldn't all those gangsters at the whore house have already known of him? I mean he was the only dude around with half a face. Anyway - this entire season was great. Can't wait for more of BE!
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Was suprised they wrapped up the Gyp storyline as I thought it would run into next season. Some great scenes though...Harrow,Luciano/Lansky/Rothstein scene, the ambush.... good stuff.
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Letting Gillian live means she'll figure prominently next season when her character has long worn out her welcome. And I found the way Gyp was killed to be a little anti-climatic. I suppose last week was just so good that anything that followed would be slightly disappointing. Richard was terrific, though. Very little of Margaret is always welcome, too.
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And is also in a band called Corporal. He's a busy dude. More importnatly than Superman is his upcomign film where he plays the Iceman, the guy in the HBO docs about Mob killers. Enjoy an early scene :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArrcnjJgy88
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:50 a.m. CST
Now, seeing as that's exactly where that character went I sense a desire to return to the communal state of being.
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:51 a.m. CST
Great finale, but again, Masseria allowed for Nucky to escape this situation voluntarily and then Nucky goes and sends Gyp's corpse back as a threat. Wouldnt that infuriate Masseria seeing as HE was the one who agreed to volutarily engage in the truce an
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:52 a.m. CST
Nucky knew it and Masseria knew it so why is Nucky trying to act like some sort of bad a$s when he knows that it was through Masseria's "good graces" that he was allowed to get Gyp's location and that his army was called back by Masseria. To me this seem
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:54 a.m. CST
Plus Nucky's army was temporary and immediately left for Chicago leaving him quite diminished. So again, why put in that line when Nucky was full aware that he had nothing to do with the actual truce though he is certainly controlling the AR strings on O
by sauronthepowerful
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Seriously, I'd like to see Houston get an Emmy nod for best supporting actor in a dramatic series. Even with half a face and limited dialogue, he's the one guy that makes me sit up and pay attention every time he's on. His whorehouse massacre was one for the ages. Richard. Fucking. Harrow. Rules.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 9:27 a.m. CST
So....... did anyone else get hard when Harrow showed up and went all Robocop on Clarence Boddicker's men, at Gillian's place tonight?
by Bricklyne
I know I did. An I'm straight.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 9:29 a.m. CST
Also, admit you really wanted to see Al Capone and Omar Little slug it out as bad as I did......
by Bricklyne
The lead up to that fight that never happened had to be the biggest cocktease in the history of hyping up a showdown between 2 major badasses onscreen. I don't think their beef is over by a long shot.
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The finale had some great scenes but I actually thought one of the best was where Lansky and Luciano realise how they've got played by Rothstein with Masseria there. All four actors where firing on all cylinders. I was pretty convinced Eli was a goner but glad to see that didn't happen. All good, looking forward to season 4. In theory this series could go on to the 60s - you got Seigel and Vegas, Luciano and the Commission, Lansky behind the scenes and Cuba...it doesn't necessarily have to end with end of Prohibition which 1928 or 29 I believe, and the series is currently in 1923.
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I don't think it's a plot hole. You forget Capone and Chalky's men ambushed and killed 32 of Masseria's men. That's a pretty serious hit, even for those days.
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Harrow surviving was good plus the dude that plays Rothstein is awesome.
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The one that started following the main cast around. Anyone know her name?
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December 5th, 1933, to be exact. The 79th anniversary is Wednesday.
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thanks, 79th anniversary on Dec 5th eh? Well that deserves a drink or two!
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He'd agreed to run the distillery and send Mellon the profits, I wonder what he had to do to get Means to convince Mellon to have Rothstien indicted.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 10:21 a.m. CST
dkev.....That makes it even more suspicious. Masseria was counting down to a man every soldier he lent to Gyp. AFTER peace has been negotiated and he voluntarily let's Nucky walk away (though he's getting rich on the side off of that act) and then Nucky
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 10:22 a.m. CST
To me that is another plot hole because Masseria would almost certainly return with 400 men as opposed to the 43 that caused Nucky to come within a hair of losing everything. If I just made a truce pact and then the guy who I had pinned guns down 32 of m
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 10:23 a.m. CST
then I'm going to squash the infidel who broke the peace that I magnanimously granted in the first place. To me this was a major, major plot hole that was designed to make Nucky look like a bad ass but was probably written out of sequence. Unless.....
by sauronthepowerful
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Rolling Thunder.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 10:25 a.m. CST
They are planning to rekindle the war (something I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt as Nucky is outgunned and outresourced). To me if Masseria gave up Gyp's location it was to end Gyp's irresponsible irrationality and that of his crew. Gunning down Masseria's own m
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 10:27 a.m. CST
Otherwise I thought the last 2 episodes were the finest of the series, hands down.
by sauronthepowerful
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A number of questionable decisions on Nucky's part. But you do wonder if this was all part of a new scorched earth agenda for the character. 1. The Ambush. If Masseria's thugs are leaving, was it necessary to ambush them? He'll just replace them quite readily and I am sure that he had a hell of a lot more men than he loaned to Gyp. Perhaps Nucky's rationale was that he knew he couldn't keep the Capone/Chalky coalition together so he used it for what it was worth. 2. The Distillery. Depending on your perspective, Nucky may very well have had no intention of ever operating the distillery. As he said, it was just bait. Alternatively, he's set up a situation where he's made Rothstein an enemy but then again he told him he'd never forget. 3. Sending the message to Masseria about Gyp. Unnecessary. Masseria knew from the moment he started in with Gyp he was just a two-bit thug with a limited investment. When the support was pulled, it was a message to Nucky of carte blanche to take him out. No need to send anyone back to Masseria. Indeed, the fact that Nucky needed Masseria to pull out demonstrates how weak Nucky really looks.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 11:12 a.m. CST
You know there is a whole big comment box, you don't have to cram your thoughts into the subject lines
by heylookoverthere
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/boardwalk-empire-creator-terence-winter-talks-nucky-richard-chalky-and-more-from-season-3 "Why does Nucky have Capone take out all of Masseria's men rather than simply let them leave town abandon Gyp and go back to New York? Is it just part of the message he wants Tonino to relay to Masseria? That a show of strength would be greeted with respect rather than a desire to keep the war going? It's both a show of strength to Masseria and a way to fuck over Rothstein, who just convinced Masseria to pull his guys out of Atlantic City. "
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Dec. 3, 2012, 11:32 a.m. CST
heylookoverthere....I am VERY aware of that. As far as the commentary, this makes no sense.....
by sauronthepowerful
even if the writers said it. <p> Let's be honest, Nucky was getting his a$s handed to him and without Torio's support he has less than zero percent chance of success. He can't keep going back to Chicago and saying 'Oh wait, the war was over but I f#cked up with an immature show of force and now I need the guys to come bail me out again."<p> He'd get laughed out of gangland.<p> That being said, Masseria's army is much bigger and much closer than the one Torio is going to lend to Atlantic City so it makes absolutely ZERO sense to provoke the guy who basically just withdrew by his own free will and good graces (plus a little grease from AR).<p> This seems terribly thought out as if the writers wanted to end the season on a biggie setting up Nucky further as King Bad A$S without really sequentially thinking through the reality of the situation.<p> Then again, I'm not commanding six figures to scribe this stuff but it seems terribly, terribly unrealistic to put those two elements together.<p> That being said, they really went out of bounds on the historical aspects of Luciano's and Rothstein's relationship. In reality, Rothstein bailed Luciano out BIG TIME by lending him a wad of capital to buy new clothes and elite Dempsey fight tickets to smooth over any and all relations that he had damaged by getting pinched. Nowhere was it said that they were confrontational and Luciano even went out of his way to state that Rothstein was the one influence in his life to teach him civility. <p> We got Opposite Day on that in the finale.<p> Still I thought it was a phenomenal episode. I liked last week's more but this one was right there.<p> Oh.<p> And one more thing.<p> Huston.<p> F#*@ing.<p> Rules.<p> P-E-R-I-O-D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dec. 3, 2012, 11:36 a.m. CST
returnofbrazil.....agreed on Point 3 however on the distillary.....
by sauronthepowerful
Mellon wants a profit and nothing else. He could care less about lowerring his cabinet status to the petty BS of a bunch of local thugs. If anything, Nucky would be greatly greatly weakened by reneging or telling him to shut it down, probably even opening himself to a vindictive witch hunt.<p> I think theyre moving the distillary because, in the end, Mellon's gotta get paid and the only way he would personally intervene like that is if there was something in it for him greater than what Nucky agreed to the first time around.
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What has Nucky offered up in replace of it? The whole thing is a bit nutty as Thompson is still an owner with Rothstein and operations haven't even begun from the distillery yet. Obviously a lot of moving parts here.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 12:05 p.m. CST
Mellon wanted to remain invisible for him to compromise that to the Attorney Genral's underling mustve taken A HUGE incentive.....
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 12:06 p.m. CST
Masseria has his "army" but he also has no interest in New Jersey.
by heylookoverthere
He didn't let Gyp live and give him 40 men to take over AC. Gyp promised to take out Nucky and Rothstien. Masseria didn't know that Nucky's extra men were from Chicago and probably a one time thing. Sure he's gonna be pissed at Nucky for taking out his 31 guys. He's gonna be more pissed/concerned about Rothstein who stole his heroin and used it to convince Masseria to lure his men into a trap. (Albeit unknowingly, but try explaining that.)
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I figure the massacre and distillery things were essentially Nucky taking control again...Masseria and Rothstein were up in New York playing with him like a pawn, and by killing all of Masseria's men and putting the Attorney General on Rothstein, he is kind of going:"Um...yeah. No." The message to Masseria was a peace offering which only makes sense coupled with the knowledge that not one man Masseria sent to Atlantic City returned alive. I doubt that anyone would try that again. Otherwise, Masseria would be like:"Peace offering? Don't MAKE me kick your ass again..." Same sort of thing with the big "fuck you" to Rothstein. A.R. thought he was pulling strings and getting away clean. He *also* might think again before fucking with Nucky.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 12:47 p.m. CST
Fringe Boss Reveals Title of Finale, Says Series Ender Is 'Massive… Really Big'
by Paul
http://tvline.com/2012/12/01/fringe-series-finale-title/
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If you look closely Seth Gabriel (Lincoln Lee) is in some of the pictures, so I'm assuming that means that the alternate reality comes back somehow!?!?!?!?!? http://tvline.com/2012/12/03/fringe-season-5-spoilers-100th-episode-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
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and setting up Rothstein was Nucky's price for their not siding with him against Gyp. Masseria gave Gyp the support he needed to take Atlantic City. Nucky wasn't going to let him get off unscathed. Same for Rothstein - Nucky asked for his help and Rothstein refused. Anyone doing to Rothstein or Masseria what they did to Nucky could not have expected anything less in terms of consequences. His bigger message to them was he's not someone to trifle with, he's not simply some corrupt official they can do business with at their pleasure. He was telling them he is a force to be reckoned with, that they should no longer look upon him as a subordinate but rather as an equal. Nucky started the season by taking Jimmy's advice of not being half a gangster. However, he thought the way to do it was being more hands-on. Someone robs his warehouse, he's the one who kills the thieves. By the end, it seemed to me, Nucky realized being a full-time gangster doesn't mean being like Gyp, but rather being like Rothstein who, as Luciano put it, doesn't do anything but sit behind his desk and make phone calls. He's the guy in charge, but well-insulated. Gyp was the kind of gangster Nucky was becoming; Rothstein is the kind of gangster Nucky decided he needed to be.
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Well we always knew he was a bad ass, but that much of a badass ? I think not. What is the betting he ends up working for Nucky next season, going toe to toe with the new bad boy in town. Van Alden, who is going to go full gangster 9cmon you know its coming) Imagine a Van Alden, Nucky, Capone war. That would be the only logical route to go.
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Starts the season sitting beside Doyle (how is that guy still alive?). Eli's the employee of one of Nucky's employees. Eli ends the season sitting beside Nucky. He's back to being Nucky's right hand man, partner even. Anyone else notice the outfit Nucky was wearing at the end is the same one he wears in the opening credits?
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why do you read talk backs in the first place if you don't want to be spoiled?
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Nucky: "It doesn't mean anything" Margaret: "Yes it does" That pretty much sums up the weekly argument regarding her storyline this season and her character in general.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 2:55 p.m. CST
Who said Massaria made a "peace pact" with Nucky? He made a deal with AR
by Behemoth
He didn't make any sort of "peace pact" with Nucky. He accepted Rothstein's terms in order to get a slice of the heroin pie. Who knows how that was framed to him by AR? It wasn't like he sat in a room with Nucky - or even talked to him AT ALL - and brokered peace. He did it all with AR. Then Nucky showed him that he was not someone to be taken for granted.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 3:03 p.m. CST
You have to assume the first thing Nucky asked Gyp's man who was hiding in the closet was "who did this?"
by heylookoverthere
So Nucky should know about Harrow's spree. How do you NOT at least attempt to hire that guy.
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Harrow and Chalky having scenes together. Chalky's club. Richard doing anything. Capone, AR, Lucky, Meyer, jesus man...it just doesn't stop. I worry about this show as it's far to smart for mainstream audiences, but to people who appreciate film at it's highest caliber, it's a real peach.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 4:39 p.m. CST
You think they skipped Torrio's failed assassination attempt and he's already given the reins to Capone?
by heylookoverthere
I'm curious if we'll see him again next season.
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At least he didn't get off as easy as Pesci in Goodfellas.
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That's the one thing that bugs me about this episode...they had no idea Gyp ran off and all his men were dead.
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A ton of stupid shit the last few eps--but I do like that the walls are starting to really close in on him now. He will have to start killing innocents now to protect himself or off to old sparky he goes. How many he kills before Deb puts him down is the only suspense left.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 5:07 p.m. CST
Well history tells us that Luciano and his men kill Masseria - maybe on Rothstein's order
by Mel
I don't know who ordered it, but I know Luciano was there when Masseria gets killed. After Rothstein gets wacked, Luciano and Bugsy and whoever else divvies up his business - so apparently Luciano won't be out of Rothestein's "good graces" for long.
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Huh? They stepped over 8 of them in the whore house and caught the last one in a closet.
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The break out star of the season, Gyp's cock, is doing very well for itself being plowed by Bobby Carnivale into Australia'a own Rose Byrne, a very sexy girl. It's an inspiration to my own and cocks everywhere that if you follow your dreams they can come true...
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Rothstein died in 1928, Masseria not until 1931. So he can't have ordered it. Luciano played both Maranzano and Masseria against each other, killed both, and then took over the aftermath and became the most powerful gangster ever.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 7:54 p.m. CST
Peace pact, war pact, ass pact.....whatever you choose to call it, Masseria voluntarily removed his men and his support from Atlantic City. Rothstein specifically stated that it was as such. So for Nucky to then go and mow down 32 guys who were in full re
by sauronthepowerful
It would basically force Masseria to avenge their deaths for face value in front of his family by sending ten times that number of soldiers to off Nucky. You can choose to call it a Peace Pact or not but the bottom line remains that Nucky did nothing ACTIVE to win the war, it was Rothsteins negotiations/bribe and Masserias VOLUNTARY withdrawal from the conflict that gave Nucky victory.<p> So why then would you go and piss in the mans face figuratively when you know he's right on your doorstep, YOUR army is going back to Chicago and you have no possible hope of matching manpower or resources against Masseria.<p> I have to err on the side of poor writing on that one. But, again, I loved the last 2 episodes and this whole season in general.
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Dec. 3, 2012, 7:58 p.m. CST
Dougmackenzie.....absolutely correct. It's also only speculation that Luciano was the trigger an. There has been NO substantiating proof either wagon this.
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8 p.m. CST
if Harrow hadn't stooped to appease the "lowest elements of the audience" and fulfilled his Lynchian Americana Destiny.....or
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8 p.m. CST
if Harrow hadn't stooped to appease the "lowest elements of the audience" and fulfilled his Lynchian Americana Destiny.....or
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:01 p.m. CST
if the dog ("it's the dog, it's the dog, listen and watch the foreshadowing of the dog) had actually made an appearance.....or
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:01 p.m. CST
if the season actually was revealed to revolve around Margaret's character altering turn.....or
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:01 p.m. CST
if the season actually was revealed to revolve around Margaret's character altering turn.....or
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:03 p.m. CST
if any one of those comical assertations ACTUALLY CAME TO PASS would anyone give a sh&t about the opinion of a certain self righteous talkbacker. But alas.....
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:03 p.m. CST
instead of prefacing a prediction with this is my opinion as opposed to deriding anyone else's contribution/opinion.
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:06 p.m. CST
wo by my count a) Harrow stooped to the lowest possible element and delivered a truly satisfying character turn...b) Margaret did absolutely nothing (except drag down evy one else's screen time)...c) the dog was nowhere to be found...d) Eli lived...e) Per
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 3, 2012, 8:08 p.m. CST
And whilst SOME of my predictions didn't come to pass either, at least i had the good sense to respect the thread and the validity of everyone elses contribution as opposed to attempting to comically parlay some false credential self importance that in th
by sauronthepowerful
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Yeah, but they still didn't know about the carnage at the whorehouse until they got there. Maybe they had some other guys with them but that scene did play like it was just Nucky and Eli turning up to take out Rosetti and his 8 or 9 remaining guys. Richard I can buy doing that - Nucky and Eli, not so much. @sauron, when I first saw the episode yeah was thinking the same thing re: the hit on Masseria's men. Yep its a little messy plot-wise, but the more I think about it the less of a problem I have with it. As others have mentioned, Nucky's deal was with Rothstein, not Masseria. I just see it as an extra 'fuck you' to Rothstein - Masseria will now be gunning for Rothstein at least as much if not more than for Nucky, thinking it was Rothstein that double crossed him. +1 to whoever said they wanted to see Chalky & Capone throw down, also +1 to whoever suggested some scenes with Chalky and Harrow next year. Writers, make that shit happen! All in all, pretty good finale to an awesome season.
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The speculation was that Luciano had diner with Masseria, left to go to the men's room and then Bugsy Siegal, Joe Adonis and Vito Genovese came in and perforated Masseria. That is all apocryphal, however, but it is the gangland folklore--it would be great if they took this to 1931 and introduced all those characters as well, but I doubt it. And Rothstein was killed in1928 over an unpaid poker debt. I wonder if any of that will be touched upon, and what, if any, liberties the writers take with the timeline.
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That's what the comment box is for.
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it's pretty much explained by what he says at the end. He tell's Gyp's henchman that this can be the end of the problems between them or the beginning, either way he's ready to fight him. Nucky knows that Masseria might see his dependence on the deal with Rothstein as him being weak, and he wants to remind Joe that him, Chalky, Capone et al were fighting hard (they were basically killing their way through all his guys anyway), and that he's prepared to keep fighting if that's the case. Joe even seems to know that Nucky is a survivor: when Gyp is bragging about all he's taken, he remind him that he doesn't have Nucky, which basically means that Gyp hasn't won yet and Nucky can come back. Killing the fleeing men and sending Gyp back is just a solid "Don't fuck with me. You hit me, I hit you harder and I'm ready to keep going if you want." It's all about saving face. If Masseria's men HADN'T been killed, Joe might figure Nucky only survived because of Rothstein and that he's not a big deal. Their deaths are showing Nucky's willingness to stand up for himself.
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Dec. 4, 2012, 10:29 a.m. CST
NOTE to folks who put entire message in subject line:
by johnnyangelheart
I just scroll right past them. I think you are getting an opposite effect from what you're trying to achieve. Sort of like what happens to folks who use all caps, people just start to ignore you. Use the comment box. That's what it's there for. Thank you.
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To each his own.<p> No ones forcing you to read.
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a temporary fix, AT BEST, that wouldve been outlasted by attrition and time.<p> Torio's generosity wouldve run out once the profit became not worth it. <p> By killing Masserias men, Nucky would incur Masseria's personal wrath that no amount of time elapse could cure.<p> Even with the Chalky-Torio coilition, Nucky was outmanned and desperate fighting only a small fraction of Masseria's men so I cannot agree with that analysis. But, then again, these are our opinions.
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Just made his first deliberate kill outside the Code? Previously, he accidentally killed a kid in a crack house. He could assume that a hired killer had killed before (two episodes ago). But when he killed his girlfriend's dad, that was a transgression. A serious one. He's starting to unravel, and it ain't gonna be pretty. Can't wait.
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Dec. 4, 2012, 12:39 p.m. CST
Did the Capone/Chalky near-rumble remind any other GoT fans of the Bronn/Hound near-rumble before Blackwater?
by Tim
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Masseria doesn't know how many guys Nucky has, or who they are. They know about Chalky, but say they don't know who the other guys are. They don't know half his force are actually Capone's men, or that they then left to go back to Chicago. Sure, Nucky is bluffing to a degree, but it's a good one since the massacre shows Masseria that he severely underestimated Nucky. If Nucky had allowed Masseria's men to simply leave, after waging war on him, it would make Nucky look weak, like a pushover who only holds control through favours from his friend Rothstein. Masseria tried to take AC away from Nucky. Nucky, as a full-on gangster, could not let that go unanswered. The massacre was Masseria's toll for his transgression. As pissed as Masseria would be over the massacre of his guys, 30+ of his men getting wiped out would most likely give him pause as to whether or not retaliation was prudent. It's a long road from New York to Atlantic City - Nucky showed him it can be a very dangerous one too. Masseria has no designs on Atlantic City, why waste more men?
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Terence Winter pretty succinctly explains Nucky's killing of Masseria's men near the end of this-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIF0JbGMvxs
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your interpretation of the finale was fantastic and put the whole season in perspective for me. Gyp and Rothstein representing the two paths Nucky could take as a gangster and the finale being all about him finding his role as a man in the shadows making plays and ultimately coming out on top. That final image of him taking off his lapel flower took on extra meaning for me with this in mind, he is now going to retreat from public view and play his role behind the scenes where he belongs. Fantastic summation, thank you for the insight.
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That Nucky had to go into hiding and that Gyp was able to commandeer his office, his possessions, his warehouse and his supply line so he would've EASILY been able to deduce Nucky's relative strength based on that alone. Further, if 32 of your guys get whacked YOU ARE GOING to get street info on your nemesis so any talk of deceptive numbers and fear born out of they known would vanish in a heartbeat. So that argument holds no weight.<p> Also.....if Masseria doesn't answer the deaths of 32 of his own men, ESPECIALLY when they were in ordered retreat, an order that came from his own mouth, then he would certainly be whacked by his own men. Guys like Masseria don't attain the level of command on chance, they are smart and cunning. They also know that allowing that many friends and relatives of other guys on their crew go unanswered is it worth any deal that Rothstein cold dangle for simple survival purposes.<p> Once Nucky opened fire on Masserias retreating men, that wouldve instantly been construed as an overt act of war and would NEVER EVEr go unanswered if for no other reason than the rival leader would lose all loyalty, face and respect amongst his own minions and would be further a huge retaliatory argument.<p> Not to seem snobby about this but I don't see how you guys can't see the logic in this. It smacks to me like the writers were desperate to set up this illusion of Nucky as the ultimate bad ass for next year without real,y thinking it through plot wise.<p> Unless, of course, next season is going to be full-on with Ivo Nandi.....
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Dec. 4, 2012, 2:56 p.m. CST
$&@$& autocorrect....'retaliatory target' and 'isn't worth any deal Rothstein could dangle'.....
by sauronthepowerful
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Dec. 4, 2012, 2:59 p.m. CST
Masseria struck a deal, reached a compromise, and then saw a good chunk of his men killed while honoring the terms of that same agreement. How does that not constitute Nucky as breaking the pact, not Masseria? How does that not engender automatic severin
by sauronthepowerful
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It all of a sudden just hit me during the scene between Eli & Nucky in the car when Nucky said he didn't want anyone to know who he was. It was quite a different Nucky than the one we first scene saw at the beginning of the season who said to the kid who'd robbed his warehouse "do you know who I am?". I saw it as his realization that he can be the guy in power of his organization without being the face of the organization. It was the weekly arguments around here concerning whether or not Gyp was nothing more than a one dimensional gangster stereotype that made me think of him being an exaggerated version of Nucky. Luciano's line about Rothstein making phone calls had me thinking about Nucky being similar as, let's face it, he does have a lot of scenes where he's making phone calls. The scene at the end illustrates the new Nucky. He sets up Rothstein by getting Gaston Means to get Andrew Mellon to call Esther Randolph.
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it could be interpreted as a tactical retreat. Nucky may have been easy to surprise, but proved he was hard to beat. Masseria's men might see his not retaliating as weakness in their boss. However, how many would be eager to join the retaliation force when over 30 of their buddies got wiped out all at once? Masseria is a smart and cunning guy - he'd have to weigh the options of not retaliating, looking vulnerable and having his men question his resolve vs retaliating, losing more (possibly many more) men, and having his men question his priorities. A guy like Masseria has a lot to deal with. Putting revenge above everything else, and possibly at the cost of everything else, can just as easily lead to his men turning on him. He can go to war with Nucky, and whoever else is in his corner, or he can go about his business and deal with it in his own time. Besides, doubtful Masseria gave Gyp anyone of real value to him. If he's worried about blowback he can spin it any way he wants, he's the boss. To regain his men's respect (or at least fear) all he has to do is make examples of one or two of his guys who mouth off or step out of line.
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Dec. 4, 2012, 6:59 p.m. CST
Jim......you present a compelling arguement but........
by sauronthepowerful
I have to believe that when you look in today's violent culture, retaliation is often over one man much less 32.<p> And again.....Masseria has all of the street resources at his disposal to tell him eventually through bribery, coercion or force exactly Nucky's troop strength and how fleeting the Capone alliance was.<p> Realistically he would not be deceived in the least by this or he would be a very poor boss. All he had to do was wait a week or 2 and returning full force with ten times as many men with only 2 hours of ground to cover as opposed to Capone needing 18 hours thereby leaving too much supply line exposure, so to speak.<p> I respect your point but to me that was poorly poorly conceived.
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I definitely noticed what Dexter did. He's made a conscious decision to abandon the code. That's serious shit. I'm actually afraid for him. And now Deb is turning against him. This is a huge turning point for him! I can't wait to see what happens now.
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I just don't see it as an absolute. This all started because Gyp didn't like being shut-out by Nucky. Nucky made a deal with Gyp but Gyp then thought Nucky was making fun of him with the Bone for Tuna note. Gyp hijacks Nucky's booze convoy and kills all the guys on the trucks. Nucky tries to have Gyp killed, Gyp tries to kill Nucky and Rothstein (with Masseria's blessing), Nucky tries to have Masseria killed. At some point the constant escalation becomes self-destructive. You seem to see the ambush as Nucky being self-destructive. I believe Nucky was making a show of force, showing Masseria what could happen if Masseria decides to further escalate the situation. He's bluffing when he says he'll oblige Masseria either way (if Masseria comes after him). He's hoping Masseria will be less confident of success than he would have been had Nucky allowed Masseria's men to leave AC unscathed. Then again, what Nucky did with Capone's help was done when he was down. Now that he's back on top again he'll have more resources at his disposal, despite Capone having gone home. I have to think one of the first things Nucky does is shore up his hold on Tabor Heights, so that Nucky is well aware of anyone who comes through from New York. Certainly Masseria could mount an army and invade AC and take out Nucky and his organization, but at what cost? And what happens to his organization when so many of his men are absent from New York? That would have to be something he would need to consider, what's better for him - going after Nucky and possibly putting his entire organization at risk, or doing business with Nucky and further strengthening his organization? And, after a while, when he thinks Nucky has relaxed, then he can take his revenge.
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when he let Gyp live. He saw Gyp as being bad for business and had decided to have him killed, but Gyp convinced him he could take out Rothstein and Nucky and give him control of Atlantic City. That decision, putting a potential gain over cutting his losses, resulted in an attempt on his life and the loss of 40 of his men.
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Dec. 5, 2012, 12:32 p.m. CST
jim.....I like a lot of your points but here's what rubs me the wrong way.....
by sauronthepowerful
Owen specifically stated, in awe, that "Masseria has an army!" Coupled with Nucky having to borderline beg Peg Leg Donneghan, Rothstein, Waxey Gordon et al for support in that midnight meeting wherein Rothsein dissuaded evryone from that alliance.<p> Owen's remark and Nucky's withdrawal point out tell us that Nucky was vastly, vastly outnumberred and outgunned. To further complicate this, Luciano was in that meeting and knew that Nucky had no troop strength because he was begging for resources.<p> Nucky is a town boss whose soldiers basically consist of a few gratuitous ward bosses and whatever organization he can bribe into service (Chalky, Capone. Masseria is a full on family boss in NYC no less who has legions at his disposal and easily could deduce from either Luciano directly or through innumerable other street sources exactly Nucky's abilities.<p> Further, when Owen was sent back to Nucky (literally) Masseria didnt hesitate for one solitary moment to send an army in immediately. He had no qualms or fears about Nucky or his limited ability to fight back. He went in full and hard because he knew that by sending a covert assassin instead of a show of force that Nucky was weak. It would only be a matter of time before he could deduce that Capone was a fleeting alliance and that Nucky's men couldn't even get alongg at that.<p> Where I think your point has A LOT of merit is in the assertation that Nucky WAS surely bluffing, but to me that's a backfire move. I think the writers were trying to set up Nucky as the ultimate bad a%s but really it was poorly conceived imo.....
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Masseria underestimated Nucky (or overestimated his hand when he backed Gyp) and ended up folding. Next hand Nucky ups the stakes and goes all-in with the ambush, leaving it up to Masseria to once again either call his bluff or cut his losses. I too think it was a setup for next season. That's the new Nucky, no longer playing it safe or being subordinate to the likes of Rothstein or Masseria. He's no longer the town boss but the head of a criminal organization that won't allow the larger ones dictating terms to them or taking advantage of them. He's saying he's no longer simply a corrupt official they can do business with; he's saying he is their equal.
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Helps permanently drive a wedge between Torrio and Masseria as well. I mean Nucky has to fear Masseria potentially striking a bigger deal with Torrio over heroin than Nucky does with alcohol. Ultimately leaving Nucky back to being in a very vulnerable position. Nucky again has a very valuable resource, but lacks the manpower to really protect it. I'm wondering if Nucky reaches out to Luciano next season. After he was burned by Rothstein and Masseria stealing his heroin, I imagine he will be looking for allies as well.
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Dec. 5, 2012, 3:03 p.m. CST
jim.....I don't think Masseria folded by any stretch of the imagination......
by sauronthepowerful
It seemed to insinuate that it was more profitable to be in dealings with Rothstein in the trade so he VOLUNTARILY withdrew his support from Gyp probably based on Gyp's instability/irresponsibility and the lure of Rothstein's new product.<p> For Nucky to then go and gun down the guys that he volutarily removed, after he had Nucky pinned down, knowing full well Nucky didnt have enough of his own manpower (remember Luciano heard Nucky basically begging at that late night meeting) seems like an overt act of war.<p> As I said before, no boss can let the deaths of 32 guys honorring the terms of a negotiated truce go unpunished or his reign would be over in a heartbeat after he lost face and loyalty amongst his own men.<p> History is riddled with insane acts of retributionary violence over the slights against one man, nevermind the willful breaking of a cease fire that destroys 32.<p> I still think the writers went for the "cheap pop" of ending the season portraying Nucky as the ultimate bad a%s without thinking through the reality of that scene.....
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Dec. 5, 2012, 3:57 p.m. CST
sauronthepowerful3, whatever the reason behind Masseria walking away,
by jim
he walked away. He cut his losses with Gyp and let Nucky win. Sticking with the poker analogy, he's got way more chips than Nucky, but had an uncertain hand in Gyp. So he folded, let Nucky take the pot, because he felt in the long run he'd be better off with a new deal. I don't dispute that Masseria will want to retaliate, I just think Nucky is betting that it won't be right away. An attack like that would give anyone pause: if he's willing to do that to men in retreat, what other crazy stuff might Nucky do if once again provoked? These guys survive as long as they do by being able to predict the other guy's move. To someone like that, an unpredictable opponent can be a scary thing. Masseria's mood might also be dictated by who those guys were. Probably no one of any true importance to Masseria was given to Gyp. Masseria might view them as simply fodder. He might mourn the loss of the cars more than the men. Both can be replaced - a war with Atlantic City might cost him something irreplaceable.
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With the goo goo googley eyes lol...that Gyp.
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Since they advanced three years in between Season 2 and Season 3, here's a way I think they'll get round this.... Historically speaking, Massaria and Torrio had a fallout in the mid 20s, leading to a war between those two groups. Now, Given that Capone had a major hand in the roadside massacre, it would reflect back on Torrio that perhaps he was trying to make a move on Massaria and get a foothold outside Chicago. They can weave this into the plotline, timewise, and make it work. this period culminated in an attempted hit on Torrio which was thought to be Massaria, but there is evidence that Capone was behind it because he was tired of being the Capo and wanted power. There is a scene foreshadowing this in this season with Capone in Torrio's office. Rothstein was killed in 1929, Massaria was in 1931, and its believed that Luciano had a hand in that . Given what happened to him this season, it provides fodder. But I digress; Back to Nucky and Co.... 1) If they go the ' mob wars' route, then obviously their resources will be tied up fighting each other, leaving a newly hardened and combative Nucky to rebuild his empire and solidify his power base. I still think that Distillery will come into play for him; Don't forget the political connections that he's established. It depends where in the historical timeline they bring the show back to. 2) I don't think the writers would leave such a dangling plot strand like this as a ' wrap it up already' missed error. There's a reason why they did this, I might not be right but it makes sense to me. I think Chalkie will become much more prominent this coming season. Nucky owes him big time, starting with a Nightclub on the boardwalk ( a la The Cotton Club). As for Harrow, I agree with what someone said earlier; where do you go with the character now? Seeing the carnage he left in the Mansion, Nucky could try to hire him on as an enforcer; there's no going back to civilized life for Richard after that. All in all, when there's that much to speculate about, I think BE has a lot of storylines left to tell.
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Dec. 6, 2012, 8:19 a.m. CST
Knightvalin.....that would be an excellent turn if they can pull it off.....
by sauronthepowerful
The one thing though that troubles me is that the distillary is going to be shuttered per Mellon's orders to Esther Randolph on the phone in order to give the appearance of enforcing Volstad as opposed to retribution against Rothstein.<p> To me the only way around this is for Mickey to move operations to a more low key facility (seeing as he actually has the time and talent to work these operations) so Nucky can work more covertly. I think maybe this is Nucky's way of taking Mellon's operation underground seeing as even Rothstein knew of its existance. We'll see.<p> Truth be told, I'm a little shocked that Mellon would even enter into this fray seeing as he specifically told Nucky never to contact him and even used his esteemed position as U S Treasury Secretary to have Nucky tossed from the Kansas City Club as "an interloper." THAT was a blatant power play to let Nucky know that he was never to be f%$ked with and could absolutely crush Nucky on a whim if he so desired. I therefore found it strange that he would place a very very risky phone calll to an idealistic neophyte in Randolph to do Nucky's dirty work though he wasn't specific laying out that as the objective. ANY exposure could potentially hurt him.<p> It is ironic that when FDR assumed office he went after Mellon hard, crusdaing that Mellon's economic philosophies were the reason for the Depression.
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*Harrow will return to see his sister, as they have laid the foundation for several times over 3 seasons. *It is impossible to have a discussion about Nucky v Messera without knowing the amount of soldiers on each side. It woudl almost be equally impossible for the characters to know this either. What Joe the Boss does know for sure is... Nucky sent one assassin directly after him. Another separate "man wearing a mask" showed up at the whore house and massacred almost everyone their, again one man did this and the witness that would be telling this to Joe would not know why. 31 of his remaining men were wiped out in an ambush featuring machine guns and a large force. Gyp Rosessti, the most psychotic gangster around, is then executed on Nucky's orders. Now if you were Joe the Boss, would you go after this guy again, or maybe woudl it make sense to lay low for now and accept Nucky's peace offer? If not this would then see Joe seeking revenge after telling Gyp about how foolish it was to fight people on their home turf.
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Dec. 6, 2012, 6:51 p.m. CST
Masseria didn't hesitate to send his whole squad in after Owen failed so I don't think he was afraid if he made such an immediate and bold show of force.....
by sauronthepowerful
he would also surely know from Luciano what Nucky's troop strength and resources were. If he didn't already (which I doubt since I have to think that he would deduce that before sending in his own men) he certainly could get the word off the street through bribery, force or coercion. As Owen implicitly stated when he spoke in awe "Joe Masseria has an army....." that pretty much insinuates and conforms with history that Masseria was one of the elite power players of the era.<p> As far as troop strength goes, I believe Owen's comment also applies there as well. That line was deliverred as if Nucky was vastly outgunned and outmanned. Compounding that is the fact that Luciano saw Nucky beg for reinforcements and get turned down. That information would certainly go right back to Masseria especially given Luciano's current plight.<p> Masseria could also certainly deduce that Torio is located 18 hours away and he is located 2 hours away. Seeing how much trouble Nucky had with a city 2 hours away (give or take) in not being able to protect his supply lines or break the blockade its pretty safe to say that having to call guys in to fight for you 5 states and 18 hours away puts you at a vast disadvantage.....again, all information Masseria could obtain and deduce from the streets and rather quickly at that seeing as the sure quantity of his loss would necessitate swift and fierce vengeance or risk losing massive amounts of loyalty.
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Dec. 6, 2012, 6:54 p.m. CST
Couldve achieved the same bad a$s weffect by simply gutting Gyp and sending the corpse as a truce gift.....
by sauronthepowerful
I think the poster who stated that Capone may have been the one flexing his bravaura had it closer to the mark.
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