Cool News
Marvel turns over Captain America, Black Panther, Thor, Antman, Morbius, Iron Fist and more to ARTISAN
I opened up one of the first Comic Shops in the state of Texas in the early seventies when Harry was just a skinny little shrimp. Believe it or not it's true. Fandom was just rolling up it's sleeves. Bootleg merchandise was everywhere because the companies were unaware of the demand. Harry's Mother and I toured all over the country to conventions from Chicago and Detroit to San Diego and San Francisco to Dallas and Oklahoma City and Atlanta and all the spots in between. Harry was still in diapers then. I remember when Harry was about two and a half he set up in a lobby of a convention in College Station called AGGIE CON. He sat there and had opened a case of those MARVEL SUPERHERO CARDS (Stickers) and begin getting them in order. Making stacks of different characters, and then selling each card at 10 cents each, except for the Peter Parker card that he decided should be a dollar because it was his only one. He made over 3 dollars profit that day. Later Marvel comics would be responsible for his outward growth in girth. When Marvel Comics partnered with 7-11, and began producing plastic cups with the characters on them, Harry insisted on collecting them all. Well, the Seven Eleven wouldn't sell them to Harry empty so he filled them with Slurpees. He wound up with a collection of over 3000 plastic Slurpee cups with Superheroes (several series of both DC and Marvel and even Activision characters)
The point is, I raised Harry as a comic, sci-fi, and movie geek. In college I was introduced to the serious side of comics in 2 World War II and Korean War Propaganda classes where my instructor, who was a liason between the war department and the comic industry, worked hand in hand with many famous artists of the day to create a strong war psychology in this country. The fear was that WWII might turn into a multi-generational war where the children of the day would grow up to be the next line of defense when their fathers and/or older brothers passed on, and they needed to polarize these children into the concept that fighting the "Nazis" and "Japs" was important for the very survival of not only our way of life, but our families as well. In these comicbooks and newspaper strips they dehumanized the "Nazis" into strange brutish neanderthal-looking monsters, and the "Japs" were transformed into yellow-peril monkey-ish looking vampire-like creatures, thereby making it far easier and much more acceptible to 'kill' our sub-human enemies.
The superheroes of the Golden Age rose up and fought alongside America's Fighting men to pitch in to win the war for America, and Liberty and Justice for all.
Why the history lesson? Ol Father Geek is getting to it. You see Variety announced today that MARVEL and ARTISAN ENTERTAINMENT have signed a wide spanning plan to develop multiple characters for feature film properties, and as I was looking at the list of characters:
CAPTAIN AMERICA
THE MIGHTY THOR
POWER PACK
IRON FIST
DEADPOOL
BLACK PANTHER
MORBIUS
LONGSHOT
MORT THE DEAD TEENAGER
and ANTMAN
I saw CAPTAIN AMERICA. Now admittedly I love Hank Pym and his mad scientist equipment. And usually ol Father Geek would begin screaming about the potential THE MIGHTY THOR would have, except it's going to be for television, MISTAKE #1. But I saw CAPTAIN AMERICA.
CAPTAIN AMERICA is a tremendous character. FATHER GEEK would love to see this be a film set in the time of WWII. When Steve was a thin (Steve Buscemi-ish) character nearly passing out in soup and bread lines in depression ravaged America. A year into the war a scientist recruits Steve who is desperate, sickly and undyingly patriotic. A real 'rah rah' American, but a man turned down for service. He gets the formula and fills out, becomes that Perfect super-physique. His mind sharpened his body capable of amazing and great things. The Perfect American weapon. However due to Nazi sabotage the formula and scientist who created him gets destroyed and CAPTAIN AMERICA is the only of his kind.
Then it would be grand to see CAPTAIN AMERICA sent into World War II. Parachuting in for a secret mission in Berlin to turn the tides. Or a mountain castle fort. A mission. And to see him fight unlike any athletic man has ever fought before. Well, this has been ol Father Geek living up to his name and geeking out. I guess someone has to fill the place of ol Harry while he's off galavanting about.
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Give me a Sandman Adaption instead. I'm looking forward to the X-men/Spiderman movies but i'm not a big superhero man for the most part. And please don't give a man in tights credit for winning WW2.
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I'd just like to say that super-hero movies kick ass. Even the bad ones (JLA, FF). Handled properly thay can be massively popular and successful. Let's hope these kick ass.
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These projects need big budgets. Captain America is one of the best known superheroes out there and there is definite franchise potential. Artisan is too small a studio. Now New Line isn't a big studio either like Warner, but at least they have experience making movies with budgets over $40 million. If one of these projects would bomb, we can forget about ever seeing the other projects on the big screen again. I'd have prefered a studio, who could take more chances, cause these projects need money and I'm affraid Artisan won't risk pouring too much money into them. Boat Drinks! Jimmy the Saint
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Stephen Strange has always bee one of my favorite Marvel characters. Unfortunately, his name was marred by the chessy movie adaptation made in the 70s. Now is the time for a blockbuster Sorcerer Supreme!
As for Captain America... If they do in fact, attempt this again, I'd like to see it set in WWII. Maybe even have Baron Blood as his nemisis. They already sort of ruined the whole Red Skull thing with the last one.
'Nuff Said! -
If the suits want to make money off of a property, Power Pack is a no-brainer! It doesn't have enough history for fanboys to whine about and its a guarantee for kids. It's a guaranteed summer blockbuster!
Also, a Dr. Strange movie would be too cool, as long as they made a trippy acid-inducing movie in the same spirit as the original series. -
heheheh
always wanted to do that :P
but didn't someone already make a captain america movie?
and whats with that disc of his, as long as they make it look less like a cheesy 50s b-movie it should rock.
did anyone see the ORIGINAL batman and robin tv seires, the black and white one where the batmobile was your standard model t ford. those were good old days heh
but are these all gonna be TV, or will osme be full features? -
If theyre raping all the franchises, they could AT LEAST make a kick-ass THOR feature movie! I mean, COME ON! THOR! Fer Chrissakes....(argl) And IRON FIST?......I could rant about this crap all day.....But i think this talk-back is going to be negative enough as it is... NUXX OUT.
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May 17, 2000 8:15:53 AM CDT
Wow, I might one day see films about Ant-Man, Morbius, AND Deadp
by dave_f
Y'know, I'm starting to think maybe superheroes don't have a place on the big screen after all. "Superman" is the exception of course, but will we ever get a director with as strong a devotion to the project as Richard Donner again? It seems doubtful. And if the favorite heroes of our youth are just going to be mangled in the translation...maybe best to let them remain in the funnybooks. One of the coolest things about the Marvel Universe is that sense of interaction between all the heroes. The Avengers, the FF, Spider-Man...they all live in the same world, fight alongside each other, switch off foes every once in a while, etc. That very important "shared universe" concept will NEVER make it to the movies because of the way characters are licensed individually. Instead we'll just see the "new and improved" Hollywood take on these characters, skewing them drastically from the heroes we grew up with and editing out anything they couldn't get the license for. When the vision changes that much, why bother? I mean, who the hell wants to see JUST Ant-Man? And Morbius?! Is he anything more than a 2nd-rate Spider-Man villain? Even Thor I usually imagine in the context of his role as an Avenger. There's no chance in hell you could make me believe he'd wear that insane costume if he didn't live in a world filled with heroes and villains. So they revamp his origin and costume to make him "more realistic" and completely drop Lee and Kirby's brilliant pop vision of an ancient god mixin' it up with modern day superheroes and villains. Again, when the vision changes that much, why bother? I hate to be cynical. I *want* my old heroes to entertain me one more time on the big screen, I just doubt we'll ever see another "Superman". "X-Men" and "Spider-Man" will make or break the idea of Hollywood heroes. If superheroes tank as a concept, though, I'd still like to see "Concrete" adapted for the screen one day...
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Cncoyle, you're right - if there's one good concept among those listed, it's "Power Pack". I read about the first five issues of that series when it came out, then foolishly dropped it to go on to what I thought were more "mature" reads, like the unfathomably shitty "New Mutants". In retrospect, I wish I'd stuck with "Power Pack". That first five-issue story arc is hands-down some of the most imaginative kids' adventure I can think of. The five kids all had well-defined individual personalities, good interaction, and cool and unusual powers. Plus, those Snark aliens were cool as hell. Last point: Power Pack doesn't necessarily need to be set in a superhero world like those other licenses, and that's a big advantage to translation. Yep, it's tailor-made for a screen adaptation. I imagine it as big budget family fare, somewhere between "E.T.", "Star Wars", and "Galaxy Quest".
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I think it would be great that Marvel had one Studio handle all their Characters. What is sad is all these Superhero movies is that their usually no other superheroes. How can we have a Golden Age of Heroes with just on Superhero? I would love to see the Avengers or JLA movie. The JLA is more likely since I think WB has all their Characters movie rights but Avenger
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May 17, 2000 9:04:22 AM CDT
I Have Trouble With A Blonde Haired, Blue Eyed, Elite "Superman,
by zeno
It's always been a little bit unsettling.
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Malin and Artisan possess the kind of savvy that could very well turn these projects into solid hits (more doubles and possible triples than home runs,) and redefine the superhero genre by disproving the notion that these titles can't be made for under $80 million. Quite frankly, I like the idea of working on a smaller scale, with less interference from producers who have no affection for the characters. And, if Artisan ever feels the need to get ambitious and make a $100 million CAPTAIN AMERICA, they can always co-finance, which is what practically every major studio is doing nowadays. Let's face it, the big studio route, as of yet, has not been charitable to the true comic book fan. Perhaps Artisan will be a better fit.
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Zeno: Perhaps in the (possible) film, Captain America could come to feel the same way -- i.e. that a race of identical superhumans might be a bad thing, and that deploying them to fight Nazis is more than a little ironic. A normal, moral guy slowly turning into the very thing he hates... make a nice running inner conflict for an action film.
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...cause I could whip Shaft's ass any day.
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Hey! Wasn't John Singleton at one time thinking about directing this puppy. I also heard that he had wanted Wesly Snipes to play the role. Guess that one has been trashed.
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The promise of more comic book films is good but I agree with Cormorant that there are other characters than Deadpool, Morbius, and Ant Man that I would rather on the screen. I would much rather see a Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, a decent Punisher, or Daredevil film. Cap's story must be an epic. Even though I hate to agree with Wizard's casting, I still think Howie Long IS Steve Rogers. This film could span decades and speak to the masses about the ideals of America and how they have or haven't stood the test of time. A battle weary Steve Rogers stops the Red Skull at the end of WWII, but pays for his victory by being frozen for decades. Waking up in present day, he realizes that America has changed and the ideals that once filled every American's heart has waned over the years. In the proper hands, this could be a story that could make you feel proud to be American (kind of what Armageddon tried to do, but didn't pull off) and oozes respect for those who fought in the trenches all in the name of freedom. As for Thor, I think that the Asgardian stories are better suited as an animated feature. It could be grand, realistic, and epic like Prince of Egypt or Dinosaur, creating a whole new world where gods and mortals meet. A Black Panther film would be okay. Wasn't Wesley Snipes connectd to this film a while back? Power Pack has Speilberg written all over it and would make a pretty cool kiddie flick. I never liked the series, but I can see where it would appeal to a younger audience. Given the resurgance of martial arts films, Iron Fist is understandable, but I would rather see a Jet Li-Shang Chi Master of Kung Fu flick. Iron Fist needs to be with Luke Cage set in the seventies though. But Ant Man and Deadpool are insane coices for films. I would much rather see obscure characters like Foolkiller or Moon Knight get a chance on the silver screen. Morbius works well with Spidey or any other character, but I don't think he would hold his own solo. Why didn't they just use him in Blade 2? I don't know why Marvel is rolling out the second teir characters when characters like the Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America haven't been made yet. Oh and whoever suggested a trippy Doctor Strange flick by Aronovsky (sp?), bravo. Cast Rupert Graves (Dark City) and I'm there.
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May 17, 2000 10:05:10 AM CDT
Morbius is a great character that Marvel has never known what to
by bloodstained
And maybe a movie, as in with Blade, the character's full potential will finally be realized.
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All these superheroes are 2nd rate shite in tights. Captain America makes me want to puke. A man in a body stocking with the American flag printed on it kicking German ass?! Zenophobia written all over it. Bad idea, I hope it dies.
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May 17, 2000 10:14:35 AM CDT
I agree with the comments made about the Cap movie being set in
by dave_f
...but I wouldn't want it to be *too* realistic. The Red Skull needs to be backed by a giant death ray or a giant nazi robot, or that big floating-head guy, MODOK (coolest bad guy acronym ever by the way: Mobile Organism Designed Only For Killing - Jesus that's cool, and yes, I'm a geek for knowing it). Seriously, I think Cap needs some of that over-the-top stuff (look at the costume). In a way, the first "Superman" does provide a good model. You want a meaningful introduction of the character and true themes of heroism (none of this "Blade" nihilism), but in the end it's still a comic book movie and the villains need to be over-the-top (ala Hackman's Luthor). Tell ya one thing though - it'd just be too goddamn cool if Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos played a supporting role. Could even set up their return as the S.H.I.E.L.D. agency in a sequel. Yeah, bring on Hydra and A.I.M. too, and bring on M.O.D.O.K., dammit! I love all those cheesy acronyms!
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Hoo-Ha! Lock up your daughters and hide your silver, Marvel's greatest Merc with a Mouth is getting a movie! I mean, Deadpool is one of the few Marvel titles I still collect (along with Christopher Priest's Black Panther) and a Deadpool movie would be the utter shiz-nit. Best thing about the series is that, besides all the great dialogue and the actual story arc, there is some real charcter development going on. If the movie could duplicate any of that, it would kick butt.
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All you Cap fans need to tell me what is so good about the living embodiment of American patriotism in a mask. He hasn't even got any super powers has he? Or does he just hide them away whenever I'm around? At least Batman (another non-super hero) has gadgets and psychosis. All Cap has is apple pie and a shield! Come on. Call me old fashioned, but I like my super heroes with super powers.
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Like Batman, I think the essence of the Captain America character from the comics has never been captured in live action -- the TV movies and the crappy feature film didn't do justice to the shielded Avenger at all. A lot of comicbook characters have survived throughout the long decades because beneath all the fun action and pulp adventure and fantasy elements, there themes and issues that readers can relate to. The characters may appear two dimensional to the casual observer, but fans recognize the depth that's often lacking in a lot of live action adventure movies: Spider-man's insecurities, Batman's pain, Superman's loneliness, the Hulk's duality, etc. Captain America's story would be perfect on the big screen: a real hero who believes in the idealistic principles that America was founded on, even when faced with the reality of political corruption and racism, etc. I can't wait for this film, and I hope they do it right.
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Hero movies kick-ass, but wouldn't it be cool if there was some way you could get really cool stories every month that concern your favorite super-heroes, only they were in a format where anything could happen and you wouldn't be limited by the effects capabilities of Hollywood - just the imagination of your mind? Like a magazine, only illustrated! And they could sell a footlocker full of army men with each issue!
Oh, wait... -
First off, can you do a good Ant-Man project without the Wasp? In any event, it sounds like they could make a lot of fun movies/TV shows from these properties. Still, I'm not going to get too excited until I hear someone is developing something with The Vision... My all-time favorite Marvel character.
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I gather from your e-mail address that ya hail from the good ol' UK, so I don't expect you to understand our MIGHTY AMERICAN SUPERHEROES. Anyway, it's hard to take your accusation of xenophobia seriously when you misspell the word with a "z". But...let's do pretend you had a real point to make for a moment. Explain the xenophobia to me, please. Because I, for one, fail to see how a patriotic superhero defeating Nazis and similarly bad dudes contains elements of xenophobia. Escapism? Yes. Patriotism? Yes. Maybe a little jingoism? Granted. But xenophobia? Hell no. Cap's always been portrayed along the lines of Superman - ultra clean cut, friend to everyone, and just doing his part to aid his country by stomping the bad guys that threaten it. I do like Pope the Dog's suggestion for bringing a little moral ambiguity to the picture, though. You could create some nice depth by giving Cap second thoughts about the super-soldier concept in light of the Nazi's own eugenics plans.
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A Captain America movie definately needs to be kept in WWII. I agree with the couple of posters who mentioned the inner conflict that Cap could have...realizing his own parallels to the Nazi concept of a "superhuman" race. Another side of depth that could be added to our hero can be brought on by the death of his sidekick, Bucky. Bucky's death should be shown as a symbolic representation of the deaths of all of the young American's in the war...killed in battle, fighting because they thought they needed to be there. But it's only after his death that Cap steps back and thinks to himself, "Wait a second...why are we putting our young men through with this?" Just imagine a Captain America doubting the moral obligations of his country.
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It is worth *something*." Sorry, Father Geek, I just had to say it. When you mention anything with reference to comics, the Simpsons guy jumps into my head. I never saw the Cptn America movie, mostly because it just looked from various footage to be a joke, an abomination. Purely evidential that bright colors and tights somehow never work on the silver screen, save Superman. But that was different, because it was prefaced by the tv show. Batman could've worked in the blue & gray, but only if it were a camp piece like the TV show. Back to Captain America, I would love to see a revamped film presented with the seriousness of the real world in real settings as it should be. Anyway, nice work, Father Geek.
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May 17, 2000 11:23:20 AM CDT
Whoo nelly...Captain America was not starving during the depress
by superninja
Alright, my geekiness is coming out in full now. I have wanted a decent Captain America movie for a long time now. I agree that a Captain America movie should be set during WWII -- with maybe a fast-foward at the end to modern times with him being "discovered" somehow still alive. There should be NO BUCKY. Period. I don't care what the purists say -- having a teenage boy as your sidekick does not translate to live action. What kind of man would allow a young boy to be put in jeopardy like that? The whole movie should be about the two POWERS (AXIS & ALLIES) racing to create a Supersolider program before the other. The Americans produce Captain America, the Nazis the Red Skull (who was the only descent part of the 80s film). Then, after he's trained, Cap gets put on the front lines. Mr. Patriotic, who's all pumped about defending his country now has to come to terms with the carnage -- the REAL side of war. This is essential to what builds his moral character. The fight between being a man, and being a symbol, and the sacrifice that comes with that.
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May 17, 2000 11:27:32 AM CDT
"When Captain America throws his mighty shield, all those who ch
by monkeylucifer
God, that's one of the cheesiest theme songs ever, but god how I love it. Okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty - what I want in a Cap movie but will never happen : A cinematic salute to the late great Jack "King" Kirby. Oh yeah boyos, what a great film it could be Captain American fights the Red Skull in Nazi Germany alongside Nick Fury and his Howling Commandos!!! Hey, it could be trilogy reflecting the changing face of American in the latter half of the 20th century. Imagine the first film as an idealistic view of Cap fighting the Axis threat, and American leading the world into a golden age. Film two, S.H.I.E.L.D. is formed and headed by Nick Fury who orders Cap into missions against the Red Menace, whom the Red Skull has now allied himself against. Cap sees many things behind the Iron Curtain & in S.E. Asia that leads him to believe that everything his superiors tell him about what he is fighting for and against is not true. Film Three terrorism poses a huge threat as the Communist regime has fallen, and the Red Skull has gotten together with an extremist group that is plotting attacks at America from within. Anyway that's my $0.02, so Artisian don't screw it up.
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Only Ralph Moeller has the charm and talent to bring the Thunder God to the big screen. Mr. Moeller looks like Sir Lawrence next to Arnie S., so let's just nip that suggestion in the bud right now.
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Tchalla is an AFRICAN KING. You think they're going to cast an AFRICAN for the part? No way...They won't do it, but I'd cast Djimon Hounsou, and have the entire thing done as a Coming-To-America kind of thing like in the Marvel Knights series.
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May 17, 2000 11:40:32 AM CDT
monodreme -- Captain America is quite super -- IN SPIRIT. That'
by superninja
He's stronger, faster and more agile than the common man, but most of all, he has an indomnable spirit! It's what makes the character who he is -- he never quits, period. All the other heroes in the Marvel Universe revere him. The character has been built up that way since his re-introduction during the Avengers. Someone who is physically superior to the average man would make a big difference set during WWII. Also, his purpose was as a symbol, to inspire men on the front lines to keep fighting for their country.
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Cap could be another Indiana Jones if they chose to go that route with it. Oh, and Antman sucks. He just does. Pym as a supporting character is cool, but Antman is crap. Just to recap: Goliath, in the Avengers -- yes; Antman the Movie -- no.
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He'll never do it, but what the hey? When I saw him leading the army in Gladiator, that thought popped into my mind instantly. And I KNOW he's an Aussie (technically Zealander), but I say give the part to the ONLY man who can be a bad @$$ running around in red-white-blue tights.
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Christ, what's next, the return of the Care Bears? Holly Hobby? Dump the lame ass Gen X shit and stick with CLASSIC comic characters. SUPERMAN, BATMAN, SPIDERMAN, X-MEN have all been around for years and have been popular with many generations. Ditto the BLACK PANTHER, THOR, CAPTAIN AMERICA, etc...these are characters that have entralled fathers AND sons over time and deserve the film/tv treatment. But Power Pack??? What the Fuck??? I'd rather see Jim Henson's Muppet Babies in IMAX than those pre-pubescent Power Pack turds EVER again. The idea that they could star in a series or film before Daredevil or Dr. Strange or even the Fantastic Four makes me wanna fucking vomit!
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I hate super heroes...Who wants to hear stories about people who are almost all immortal, and just take turns beating each other up. The monotomy of it all just kills me. I think that you are all seriously on crack or something, All of you people can go fuck yourselves. Gludious out.
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I think any adaptation of Cap should follow the current comicbook continuity -- by that I mean, Captain America was created during World War II, but now he comes back in modern times, a world much different than the world in which he originally fought. I think Marvel did a great job "updating" Captain America without discarding all of his backstory. It's important to have the flashbacks to WWII and the death of Bucky and the evil villains like Red Skull and Baron Zemo, but Captain America is a much richer character when he reawakens in modern times to a world that thinks he's just a legend, and then later thinks he's an anachronism with morals from another time. Can't you see it? Kids especially would relate to this today. Instead of it being just another World War II era movie, you can explore a lot today's issues, like the cynicism of youth, the questioning of military combat, the role of America in the current global environment, the lack of faith in leaders, etc. Cap would be shellshocked to see the new world, but realize that America is still defined by its citizens who still share the noble vision of the earlier generation. And likewise, the people around him, at first skeptical, would grow to see Cap as a true hero through his actions. Sorry for the long post, but I think that moving Cap to modern times worked for Marvel Comics, and it'll work in the movie too -- if done right.
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Setting it during WW2 is a terrible idea. Especially soon after Saving Private Ryan- America goes ga-ga over a film that both portrays the true horror of war and celebrates the common soldier, and now you want to have a guy in red, white and blue tights running around with a big goofy shield? Hard-core comic geeks will be the ONLY people in the theater. The best approach would be to have a brief set-up set during the war, showing the whole frozen in the ocean bit, then have him revived NOW and do the fish-out-of-water routine. Have the Red Skull be a corporate biotech bad-ass, and make sure Rick Jones is in there as the sidekick. Oh yeah, and Kurt Angle (WWF wrestler) MUST play the part of Cap. It's no stupider an idea than all the silly-heads who wanted Danzig or Chris Benoit for Wolverine- it's true, it's true.
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May 17, 2000 12:36:51 PM CDT
I think J. D. Salinger's son should play Captain America and he
by monkeylucifer
Hey Gludius, you're the one obssesed with the posterier region, and we're gay!?!?!? Come on man, they really botched the labotomy, didn't they?
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How do you set it in modern times without the Avengers? Without a world populated by superheroes? It won't work. If there aren't more "modern" heroes around to juxtapose Cap's old fashioned ideas against, it will just come off as a Grade-D storyline which is what the 80s movie was! A man out of time running around like a chicken with his head cut off, giving a bunch of lame speeches and appearing to be startled by modern technology. In a word: BORING! Make the character as legend in the first film, and then dump him into the SIXTIES times in the second! Yes, I DO mean the 60s -- with the Avengers.
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Kikstad, that was a really intelligent post you just gave. Gludious Maximus on the other hand, that was one of the more ignorant posts I've read in a while. Let me try to enlighten you. People have wanted to hear, read and write stories about superheroes for thousands of years. Greek myths are full of them. Taken in the right context, even Christ is a superhero. I believe that the reason people like stories about men and women with powers far beyond those of the Everyman is because its a form of escapism. Its the act of thinking, "If I read this story about Superman, I can escape my everyday life for a little while," or "If I watch Gladiator I can understand more about what it feels like to sacrifice something and become a hero because of it." We love our heroes very dearly, which is why there are some many books, movies, comics, cartoons, myths, you name it, that focus on the hero. I think that comic book heroes in particular are important because they can be used to reflect social issues present today. Just look at "Watchmen," "Kingdom Come," "Astro City," or "Dark Knight Returns," all of them great examples of superheroes in real-world situations reflecting social viewpoints. If a Captain America movie can be used to widen the understanding that people have about what it means to sacrifice something for ones cause, then I'm completely behind it.
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I totally agree that Captain America should take place during WWII. Then, in a sequal, you could have him frozen and revised in the present. Yeah! Where else would Captain America start out? During the Vietnam war? Come on! Everyone would hate that! But, they're not going to make a Captain America movie for some time. I'll bet money that, of this list, the next two movies made will be Mort the Dead Teenager and Morbius. Now, I have no idea who Mort is, but from the sound of it, they'll make it into an Idle Hands rip-off despite the comic origin. And, Morbius will follow on the same lines by jumping on the teenie-bopper Buffy and Angel band wagon.
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and they would have it in this partnership. Totally. And that's why it's with Artisan. Marvel would have say in every aspect of production.
And their choices of properties to turn into features boggle me. I guess I should thank the stars that Daredevil, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Hulk, Fantastic Four, Luke Cage & Elektra are in other peoples hands. Antman? What the fuck? Really.. might as well make The Adventures of Wasp and Yellowjacket. And they list Black Panther as the Indiana Jones-type of adventure. No, I don't think so. Unfortunately, I don't think ensemble pics will do well, and X-men will test that out. If anything (and I said this in the past) if they made the Invaders as a feature along the lines of what Father Geek wants... a world war II epic. It would work... Saving Private Bucky with Namor, Human Torch (w/ Toro) and Captain America... now THAT movie would rule. Marvel needs to concentrate on singular properties before trying to hand out and produce a ton of them and ending up with crap like Punisher, Captain America and Corman's Fantastic Four movies. And sorry, but Dazzler would not make a good television series. -
..... if his name is meant as a parody, feeble though it may be, he also appears to be obsessed with GLADIATOR. If I were keeping track of the worst trolling posts in the history of AICN, this guy'd be a serious contender for the top spot. As for this CAPTAIN AMERICA movie, I think monkeylucifer is right. Matt Salinger *is* the Captain American. And, since I can't see a CA movie without him, I'd like to nominate Ned Beatty for the role of Bucky.
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...the thick-as-a-tree norseman who played Buliwyf (the main viking) in the otherwise lamentable "13th Warrior" was giving off definite Thor-vibes. Hey, I just looked him up at IMDB (full name: Vladimir Kulich) and he's Czechoslovakian, not Norwegian. Ah well, ya can't tell me he's not the spitting image of Thor though.
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May 17, 2000 1:12:34 PM CDT
Cormorant -- what do you think about Ralph Moeller for Thor?
by superninja
Here's my geek-ridden rendition of the Avengers: http://www.geocities.com/souperninja/avengers.JPG
Keep in mind, it was a quicky. -
Longshot + Mojo could make for a really fun, pop-culture parody. Mike Myers could probably make a kick @$$ Longshot film.
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...though I've only glimpsed him on that "Conan" TV show. Doesn't he have an Austrian accent in the tradition of Ah-nuld's Conan? And he was in Gladiator too? He was the big German who befriended Crowe I assume? One thing I know is true - where I'm willing to accept most Hollywood heroes as less muscular than their comic counterparts (ala Hugh Jackman), Thor has GOTTA be a big guy, no matter what. He's traditionally supposed to be handsome too, and that's a little tricky. I don't think either Vladimir Kulich or Ralph Moeller are exactly babe-magnets, but they both have the look and the deep voice. As for Crowe as Cap, I can almost see it, but does Crowe have the inherent warmth and kindness of Cap? He's got the commanding presence no doubt, the leadership thing, but he project a certain...cynicism I think. In all his roles. Maybe it's because he's a bit of an asshole in real life (and he is, great actor or not), and I unconsciously carry that over onscreen. I think Cap needs an actor who's slightly more Boy Scout-ish. And Midwestern.
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Following the talkback thread, I would agree that setting the story in the 30's and 40's is a great idea. Costuming would be cheap and locations easy to find. Call me boring, but I always loved that storylines where Cap was running off to stop some unknown scientist, sabotaeur, or hidden strong-man from striking a major blow against our regular soldiers and preventing them from doing the main work of the war. To combat the eugenics argument, we don't need Cap becoming something he's not by doubting everything he believes in and stands for. Simply set up the experimental group as being ahead of their time socially and being ready to administer their serum to a pool of candidates who can be racially varied. This could even be featured as part of the original screening process for the candidates. "We are fighting for freedom from tyranny for everyone. You may be sent to combat an Nazi advance in the Congo, help the Chinese combat Jap aggression, etc...". Whatever. Cap was a symbol of fighting against evil and tryanny and America being the strong arm in that struggle. I'm uncomfortable with trying to impose Y2K social norms on the early 20th century culture, but if that is something needed to keep the movie acceptable, then I'm willing to buy it. I can only entertain arguments against American patriotism from people who have lived both under democratic and communistic/dictatorial societies and then decided that neither was better than the other. I would accept a British super-patriot as easily as an American one. Being American, I'm just partial to the latter. Love the idea of a period Cap movie.
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should be more along the lines of cameo appearance in Blade. Blade was the enemy of Morbius afterall... and would make much more sense in being introduced into that series than as his own feature. I'm surprised the idiots at Marvel don't want a Ghost Rider feature... and television isn't the avenue for superhero adventures. Look at the Flash, that was a great show, but no one watched it. Lois and Clark fared a little better, but not much. JLA? 'nuff said. And they haven't replayed Generation X since it was first seen. Comics don't necessarily make good properties to adapt for television due to expense. JLA started off as a 1 hour pilot and grew into a 2 hour movie of the week. The nearly dropped dead when presented with a budget just for visual effects. I hope the Tick fares a lot better than JLA did.
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He had powers...he got them from the super solider seruim he drank,it has helped him stay youthful looking,and let him lift more then a normal person,not in the Hulk class but defintely more powerful then like Bat-Man...damn i feel like a nerd now....gotta shake it off...but how...wait i know...comic collecters is pussies..yeah now I feel like a REAL man....and i think that 3,000 slushies thing really reveals alot about the inner workings of young Harry(in fact his whole origin that Father Geek spoke about up there seemed like a fucked-up twist on Oliver Twist..sorta)-----El'what about Cloak & Dagger!!!!!????"Ryano
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I think we are all in agreement that the Captain America film is the one everyone wants. Crowe (being in the spotlight at the moment) would be good, but his performances have always been tougher, more gritty. Like a Frank Castle or a Bruce Wayne. Cap needs to be a nice guy. A boy scout. He is Superman without the powers. I still think Howie Long has the looks and size to play the good Captain. And to the above post that the Captain is nothing special because he is powerless. Captain America is so special because he is the ultimate human specimen. He is a normal man but through years of training and hard work he has pushed himself to the peak of human condition. In Gruenwald's run on the series, Cap got rid of the Super Soldier Serum from his system and now is as normal as anyone (well maybe not Harry). Like BAtman, Cap is the easiest hero to adapt to film because he is so human. I agree about scrapping the teenage sidekick Bucky. If he must appear in the film, he could be an 18 year old fresh recruit. And about Cap's costume. Cap's uniform is iconic, but we have all seen in the 90' film. A literal translation of the costume looks pretty hokey. I don't want him in black leather or anything. But a costume more like the original 40's uniform would look better on the screen. Give Cap a helmet like his original costume, not a mask and not a motorcycle helmet like in the TV show. He is a soldier for crying out loud. It can be shaped like the mask, but it's more functional and protective as a helmet. Something a soldier charging into battle would wear. And no spandex. Cap's costume in the comics is supposed to be some kind of chain mail and kevlar. And for god's sakes don't put his underwear on the outside of his pants. Whoever started that trend in comics needs to be shot. I'm a ramblin', ramblin', ramblin' guy. Sorry for the ramble. Ramble on, ramblers.
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I wonder if they'll ever really make it.
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Crowe is a true actor -- he can be anyone he choses and you will believe it. Looks-wise, just examine the difference between Bud White, Marcus Aurelias, and Jeffrey Wigand. Crowe gets to play a lot of dark, brooding characters, so who's to say he wouldn't jump at the chance to play someone like Cap?
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I still think that an animated Thor flick would be ideal, but if they are going to make an actual motion picture of Thor, I have to agree with the above post who suggested the main viking from 13th Warrior. Every time he appeared in that film, he was the embodiment of the Norse God of Thunder, especially near the end when he was making his last stand against the bear guys (sorry don't remember their names, the movie wasn't that good anyway). Cast James Woods as Loki. Cary Elwes, Billy Crudup, and Oliver Platt as the Warriors Three. Donald Blake could be played by Ethan Hawke. With Ashley Judd as Jane Foster and Linda Hamilton as Sif. Too bad Oliver Reed passed on, he would have been an excellent Odin. Throw in the a CGI Destroyer and some Asgardian Trolls for good measure. Animated would be cool, but if it has to be live action, these are my picks.
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Though the character has his compassionate side, remember that this is a guy who people have to take seriously when he's barking orders. People have to believe this man is the symbol of America. Howie Long just doesn't carry that kind of emotional weight -- I actually SAW his firefighter film, so I know of what I speak.
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Crowe is definately one of my favorite actors. I agree he could probably play a great Cap. Hopefully they don't go with someone like Casper Van Dein. I think an older Cap would be better and more believable than some youngster. It would be a cool twist if they chose some pencil pusher who has sat out of most of the war to experiment on with the Super Soldier Serum. If they are going to use Bucky, it would be a better dynamic if Cap was a few years older.
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That firefighter movie was pretty lame, but Howie did a decent job. It wasn't Oscar material. Physically, he's a match. But I agree he has yet to prove his acting talents. He seems like a fairly intelligent guy though from what I have seen on Fox football. Russel Crowe would be cool, but if he passed on Wolverine, I can't see him filling Cap's shoes. Plus, I have nothing against foreigners, but I would like to see the embodiment of America be an American actor.
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And that damn nurse, too. What a couple a' squares! Ralph Moeller can act, you know. For a guy that big whose resume is former Mr. Universe, I find his acting ability fairly impressive. He also has a certain amount of charm that came across fairly well in the Conan the Adventurer t.v. series. He could be a bad @$$ and funny at the same time, but he didn't seem flat out STUPID like Arnold's Conan did. I don't know where you'd start with a character like Thor. But for starters, I would cast Brent Spiner as Loki -- the guy would have a BLAST playing that character. Oliver Platt for Volstagg the FATSO is good, so is Carey Ewles as Fandral the Dashing. Hogun would be easy to cast as he is the strong, silent type (any wrestler would probably do). Sif, has to be big and sexy, not just buff and tough (Lucy Lawless comes to mind, but she's kind of hammy at times, maybe Julianne Moore as a dark brunette). And how do you forget the Enchantress (Nicole Kidman, blonde) and the Executioner! They should be introduced and set up for a possible sequel. Like Loki could come to her and ask her assistance and she could turn him down. You could make it the Asgardians vs Surtur, with Loki betraying the Gods to Surtur, and Odin exiling Loki to earth, with Thor following him in the sequel to undo his misdeeds.
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I have the first issue of that series -- having some trouble tracking down the others...they never released it in graphic novel format, bastards. Anyway, I think that would make a great adaptation. Cap as a grown man who TRIED to enter the service but couldn't because of his physical impariments who is then selected for the Super Soldier program. He beats out several other contenders, who are, as someone mentioned above, of all different races, builds, etc. It would be hard to show Cap as a wimp then getting buff, tho. Still, it's a good starting point.
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Yeah! And Mike Meyers would play the Cap, James Cameron would direct/produce/edit and Jean Chr
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1. Captain America, Captain Marvel and Superman are all boring, outdated characters. 2. Iron Fist would be pretty cool, though. So would Black Panther. 3. over the last decade, tv has shown itself to be as legitimate a medium as film, if done right (in response to Father Geex coment). 4. The only really apropriate medium for superheroes outside comic books is animation. Why would you want to see a live action superhero?
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You gotta ask, why would anybody care about any of these, especially as movies?? Only The Black Panther and Longshot could really work on the big screen.
Here are some unedumicated guesses on what will go where:
"Captain America" - TV series, WWII era, then moved to the present with no explanation. Lyle Waggoner will co-star
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despite obvious arguments, jean claude van damme woud be perfect for captain america. he looks like him (see Street Fighter the movie) and he is built like him, he also has the physical abilities to perform like him:punches,kicks, jumps,flips. van damme would be perfect!!! he would just need to work on his speaking or be dubbed. This possibility should be seriously considered as van damme is currently working with artisan and may even be offered the part. then Artisan would have a star attached and still keep the budget at about 30 million like the typical Van Damme movie
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This is all I have to say. Deadpool...Jason Lee. 'Nuff Said!
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Keep it in WW2. The suffering hardluck case from the Great Depression tries to get into the army to better himself, he's turned down but some mad scientist promises the US gov't if they let him experiment on this kid they'll win the war. Okay. The reason they don't make more Captain America's is not revealed however. It's a successful secret project, but then Cap'n is immediately sent off on a mission, and he's told he's going to go in there and singlehandedly win the war for everyone but he's put up against such forces even his newfound strength and intelligence can't handle it. It's a suicide mission. They never expected him to make it back. After he's defeated and beaten to submission, he's brought into a POW camp and is he discovers the mad scientist there as well. Found to be a double agent and selling his science to the highest bidder, neither the Nazis nor the US Gov't want the mad scientist who turned Cap into a perfect freak. The US Gov't turns the mad scientist over to the Nazis and the Nazis decide to show him to his freakish creation. They explain that the serum used on Cap was originally designed to force all non Aryan's into becoming "perfect." And now that they know it works, the Nazis are going to poison the world's water supply with it. Naturally Cap gets pissed, finds the right moment and then leads an uprising in the POW camp. He either makes amends with the mad scientist who comes along for comic relief, or Cap just kills him too. THEN there's like some big ship or something (whoops no this is Artisan gotta watch the budget) THERE'S THIS HELICOPTER WITH A BIG BLOCK OF ICE. And in the ice is enough Aryan serum to turn all of Europe into fighting Nazis. So the finale of the film is Cap somehow stopping the Nazis from poisoning the Earth's water supply. In the process he gets frozen in the block of ice and comes out a dazed and confused misguided and very disillusioned young man in the 21st century. Voila! Could I be a Hollywood Executive or what?!
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One of the lamest hero's ever will on be on the big screen?! Sweet jesus it must be the end of the world.
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Because that's what your post is -- a f$%#ing JOKE.
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:) That is all.
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Hmmm... Captain America done right would be great. It'd have to be something lighter. I believe someone brought up a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" style adveture movie. I couldn't agree more. Treat it like an old fashioned action serial and this could be a winner. We'll have to wait and see, though. By the way, shifting from Marvel to DC, does anyone else wanna see "Kingdom Come" adapted into a movie? I know it'll never happen and if it did it would be so tampered with by studio execs it'd be horrible, but if done roght it would be the end all of superhero movies. The Gulag at the end would be worth the price of admission. Take care, all... I'm going to see a pre-screening of "Shanghai Noon." Mr. Sartre, I am just a cowboy lonsome on the trail, I'm just thinkin' 'bout a certain female, the nights we spent together togetehr on the range, looking back it don't seem so strange... ((Thin Lizzy rules))
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Okay, this deal sounds pretty sweet, but let's all remember that most previous Marvel adaptations have utterly sucked.
Spider-Man, The Hulk, Generation Eccchh....oh and don't forget the abominable Captain America movie and the never-released FF flick from 92'. Here's my concern, these last two flicks were produced by B-or-Z-grade studios (Menahem "Superman 4" Golan's 21st Century company, and Corman's Concorde), and let's face it, Artisan don't have much more prestige overall.....
But I hope I'm wrong. After all, Blade ROCKED!!! -
Personally I think a Paul Verhoeven Captain America movie would be great. I think he's good with fast action, special effects, working with comic type characters and satire within the story. Secondly, if Marvel makes any shows with Thor or any other characters on TV, it will suck ass. There was a Thor in a recent Hulk television program where he was made out to be some goofy loud mouth wrestler with a plastic mallet.
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Ya know, every time I see another story about a possible superhero flick, I think of Corman's Fantastic Four. I got drunk on Skyy and watched it at a friend's house, and it was the funniest shit I've ever seen. For those of you in the LA area, you can rent it for free at Cinefile, next to the Nuart on Santa Monica Blvd. I recommend it highly for those who like MST3k fodder. Oh, and to whoever suggested a Verhoeven-directed Captain America movie? That idea frightens the hell out of me. For my money, P.V. needs to stop dicking around and just go ahead and make that Hitler movie.
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May 17, 2000 10:09:47 PM CDT
ARGH, don't bring up a "Kingdom Come" movie again Mr. Sartre!
by dave_f
If you do, I'll be compelled once again to go into my blistering criticism of the comic and its utter lack of potential for a screen translation. Superninja, don't say a word, I know you want to! It's forbidden! One day, you must all face up to the fact that "Kingdom Come" was the most ill-conceived, poorly-executed, and over-hyped piece'a crud DC's ever served up. Easy now, Cormorant...easy. Getting worked up...must control self. There. Better. Okay, now just don't bring it up again and I'll be cool.
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Walt Simonson's "Thor" was the first comic aside from Claremont's "X-Men" that I remember *really* jumping out at me. And the Enchantress as depicted by Simonson? Wotta foxy villainess she was. You're right, Superninja, she definitely would need to play a role in the Thor movie. She could be the sly co-conspirator of Loki, or her own player. Sharon Stone would've been perfect ten years ago. Now...maybe Charlize Theron? She looks Norwegian, and she's played the bad girl in that cut-rate "Pulp Fiction", "Two Days in the Valley". As for Sif, I'd cast Julianna Margulies, who I've always contended was ideal for Wonder Woman. Linda Hamilton seems too old, and Lucy Lawless is maybe too obvious. Hmm...is Carrie-Ann Moss too obvious too? Brent Spiner as Loki is a great idea - he's even got the right nose for it. As for the Warriors Three (if they were necessary), Elwes and Platt are great suggestions for Fandral and Volstagg. Howabout mcho man Vin Diesel as Hogun, or would there be too much chance of him upstaging Thor? Fairly charismatic guy, that Vin. As for the story, I'd ditch the Thor-as-mortal thing and lose Don Blake and his nurse girlfriend too. Walt Simonson rightly realized that Thor is coolest when he's just...Thor. I prefer that to Lee and Kirby's concept. Have Odin dispatch Thor to the long-ignored Midgard (that's "Earth" to you and me, True Believers!) because he suspects Loki's planning to stage some villainy there. And indeed, Loki is manipulating mortals to acquire various arcane Norse artifacts for the purpose of summoning the king of all bad guys, Surtur the giant. Cut around a bit between Asgard and Midgard as Thor tracks Loki's scheming, skirmishes with trolls and such, and climax with Surtur and a horde of fire demons terrorizing both worlds as seen in Simonson's classic multi-part story. This'd be the ULTIMATE superhero movie showdown - gods, monsters, soldiers, and demons in one giant melee. "Braveheart" with superheroes is the pitch to the money men. The sequel must be the Beta Ray Bill story (don't gimme no guff). A third movie could follow my other favorite Simonson story arc, where Thor, the Executioner, and a host of Asgardian ass-kickers descend into Hel to rescue trapped mortal souls. Let me tell you, when Hela's undead hordes close in and the Asgardians break out the M-16's they nabbed from Earth soldiers in the first flick, you better believe the walls of Hel will fucking shake. Ah, and if they could capture the Executioner's last stand as Simonson did...I could die a happy man. Shit, wasn't I just posting earlier that Donner's "Superman" was a lucky aberration, and that Hollywood will never get superheroes right? And still I made this long-ass post? What a geek I am.
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Kingdom Come is "ill concieved"? What the fuck version did YOU read??!!?? It ranks right up there with The Dark Knight Returns! It is a comic masterpiece! Alex Ross's painting are fabulous! Read it again jerkie! ....don't believe the gall and stupidity sometimes.....
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Plainly, the pattern set before us must be obvious to the thickest lout among you. Man, man, man, man, man, man, man. Let's analyze the pseudo-word super-hero, shall we? Super. Hmmmm....pretty straight forward. Hero. Again, one who acts heroic. Why is heroism, however, only associated with males? Oh, Power-fist, a black person. How generous of Hollywood. I long for the day that heroism is attributed to women that don't have "big boobs", but show courage without resorting to violence (Sorry Lara Croft, not on my train). For all of you who want to say, "Gee Ms.Foster, why argue on a male dominated web-site for nerds?" save it. This pisses me off big-time. Screw Marvel and Artison.
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Heather, Josh and Donald Blake go in to woods to study some Loki legend... Josh disapears after some "creepy-ass" noises make everyone freak.... later Heather finds Donald in the basement of an abanboned house, he's in the courner beating his stick (agaist the wall)...... LIGHTENING BOLT... it's Bruce Campbell in a red cape saying "HAIL TO THE THUNDER GOD...BABY"
Kevin Smith Directs -
Heheheh. I like your ideas for the Thor movie(s). Pray the Gods are watching...
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and Black Panther are the pick of the litter. Power Pack in the right hands would be decent. Antman has some possibility and Thor if kept in Asgard would be kick ass. Nuff said.
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Even though it's gonna make some of you hate me like I was the second coming of Joel Schumacher, Wolvie6 has forced me, yes, FORCED ME to elaborate on "Kingdom Come"! However, due to my laziness, I'm just reprinting the previous post I made on the subject from a few weeks ago. Yes, friends, it's time for a "Cormorant Classic", pearls of wisdom resurrected from the past! The topic at hand was the potential Captain Marvel movie, and of course, given his importance in "Kingdom Come", that comic came up as well. Here was my take on "Kingdom": ********* I really didn't like that series, especially coming on the heels of the far more interesting "Marvels". Seems like Mark Waid was trying too hard to have *every* line of dialogue and narration drip with meaning and portent, and that came across as silly and pompous to me. It's definitely possible for superheroes to be taken too seriously, and if ever a project proved that, it's "Kingdom Come". One of the biggest problems for me was how uninvolving the framing device was. That particular narrative contrivance(Spectre=cosmic tour bus for the pastor who must "bear witness") seemed so forced as to be laughable at times. An interesting idea, maybe, but after four issues, annoying. Even Alex Ross's art fell flat for me. His action scenes were muddled and confusing, and I really felt his desire to meticulously showcase every hero in the DC pantheon was more a distraction than an enticement. Working with a small number of iconic heroes and villains in "Marvels" worked really well, but Ross's photorealistic style is ill-suited for vast armadas of heroes and big fight scenes. Oh, and I think Waid's writing is pretty weak too, though I've never thought of him as a good writer to begin with. If you want to write the next "Watchmen", you need to be able to write on the level of Alan Moore - Waid's not even in the ballpark. As for the Captain Marvel connection...like I said in yesterday's deleted Talkback, this guy should never have been transplanted into the DC universe to start with. Read any of C.C. Beck's classic Captain Marvel stories and you'll realize what folly it is to take the character seriously for one minute. And as a central story point in a tale of pending Armageddon? The height of folly. So what did I *like* about "Kingdom Come"? Well, Ross's designs on all the central characters were great, especially Wonder Woman and Green Lantern. Ummm...other than that, I'm stumped. I admire Waid and Ross's intent, but their follow through left me totally cold. ********* And thus ends another snobby "Cormorant Classic". No offense to you "Kingdom" fans out there (and I know there're enough to kidnap me and release me in the Alaskan wilderness to hunt for sport), but I can't stand the reverence with which folks describe it. It was a hack epic, the poor man's "Watchmen". Oh, and one request: give me a ten minute head start before you release the hounds and start hunting me...
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Guess our tastes are different, but it's not like I'm going to start calling you names for your difference of opinion. Well, in defence of my stance: what I really enjoyed about "Kingdom Come" was the fact it seemed to compare the golden age of comics to the new wave of comics, or on a bigger scale the tradional types of role models to the new types of role models. I found this to strike a chord deep within me for we do see a trend in deifying (sp?) questionable "heroes" in our society today (i.e. Dennis Rodman, Marylin Manson, Fred Durst, Kid Rock, etc.). And, more so, we see a new breed of superheroes taking over the 'gold ol' boys.' If you remember early-to-mid 1990's when Image Comics first emerged and eventually gained a substantial market share, we noticed a new breed of violent amoral superhero arise from that era. If you wanted to be hot you needed to have some violent adjective in your name, a mysterious past, ridiculously large and bulky looking guns, and muscles w/ veins for males or breasts the size of children for females (incidentally, did anyone ever notice how many of Rob Liefeld's characters had the words "blood" or "death" in their names?). These trends have carried on, though, and it is noticeable on the comic racks of every major comic retailer. Even if Image is basically a shell of itself these days, there has been a great influence that the company has had (good or bad, it's questionable) on the comic world. As a result, this new 'extreme' type of gritty hero with its appealing marketablilty began to take over the traditional moral hero. It was that sort of comparison to the comic industry today as well as our society as a whole that made "Kingdom Come" worthwhile for me. The art and story was pretty damn good too, might I add. Anyways, on the note of serious superheros... you also mention "Watchmen" in your post, a series which I just madly adore. "Watchmen" (along with "Sandman" and an animated "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac") is a comic book movie project I'd like to see. Hope you have no objections to this proposal as you did the last one. What I fear is that the studio execs may tamper with the "global threat" plan towards the end (if anyone's read Watchmen, you'll probably know what I mean... if anyone hasn't, go read it to see what I mean). "Watchmen" is one of the best examples of a comic book transcending the medium and, if scripted by Alan Moore and directed by someone with massive talent, it would definitely be the best comic book film ever. Anyways, take care. Mr. Sartre, readin' Rorsharch's diary...
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I realise that xenpohobia is spelt with an x but as my finger mistakenly hit the z I couldn't be arsed to change it. Doesn't change the fact that captain America is the USA's equivalent of the Nazi Aryan master race. Carrying out ethnic cleansing in the name of uncle Sam. If I remember rightly back to my childhood ( when I collected many thousands of Marvel comic books) the Cap'n was created by wartime scientists to defeat the enemy. Two wrongs don't make a right. Anyway, when someone wears little wings on his sky blue S&M bondage hood , I can't take them seriously.
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I just can't see any of the mentioned titles being made. The whole thing reminds me of when New World Pictures bought Marvel about 12 years ago. The movie going public was subjected to B-movie straight to video pieces of crap like Capitain America and the Punisher. As far as I can tell Artisan displays no signs of being any kind of Hollywood players. The level of sucess they have achieved has been low budgeted films that made a profit. Blair Witch was made for very little, but you know what it friggin looks like it! How is a company like Artisan going to finance a distribute a film like Capitain America or Thor. These titles need budgets in the ballpark of at least 60 million dollars. The only credible studios that could pull something like that off is Fox, New Line, or Sony. The only way I could see it working is if they took a non superhero title like Mort the dead teenager. A lot of so called comic book inspired movies were small imprint titles like Men in Black or the Crow. There is a lot of history and fans of some of these titles and any kind of tinkering with the characters or settings would most definetly be met with serrious backlash from the people that would pay to see a Marvel movie. Another point I think is valid about the purchase is that some of these titles don't need to be made into a movie. I'm not just talking about Power Pack. Thor on the pages of comic books. but Thor on the big screen I just can't see working. It took a film like the Matrix to make the guys at Fox seem more comfortable with a film like X-Men, with it's over the top anime style action. I don't think the key to good comic book movies is to make a whole bunch. I think the key is to pick material that would work as a movie. Just because Blade is sucessful doesn't mean we need to hear about how the Hulk and Iron Man have been green lighted. Remember it takes just one Batman and Robin for studio execs to gringe at the thought of a superhero movie, yet they have no problem okaying any project Kevin Costner wants to develop even though he has proven to be Hollywood kryptonite.
Later! -
Actually, Onara San, Cap's origin really, honestly, truthfully does NOT project xenophobia. You yourself note that Cap was "created by wartime scientists to defeat the enemy". Isn't that a rather different goal than TRYING TO CREATE A MASTER RACE?! Basically, the attempt to create a super soldier was just a military operation, the equivalent of trying to make a better gun to kill the bad guys with. The scientists behind it didn't have as their goal turning everyone in America into blond-haired, blue-eyed supermen. They wanted a better way to fight the Axis powers, end of story. That's not xenophobia. No, really, it's not. ACTUALLY, Cap's origin is just a cheesy comic book hook to make the hero stronger than average guys, just a patriotic variant to Peter Parker getting bitten by a radioactive spider or Superman comic from an alien world. Let's not read too much into these devices. "Ethnic cleansing in the name of Uncle Sam?" Riiiight. Quit yankin' my chain. As for Cap's ear wings and bondage hood (your term)...well, I guess they're an acquired taste, so I won't defend 'em.
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May 18, 2000 7:09:42 AM CDT
Well, I did like the core *concept* behind Kingdom Come, Sartre
by dave_f
...however, as I concluded in my initial post, "it's just the follow through that left me cold." I absolutely agree that the superhero waters were polluted by the likes of the Image comics vigilante-types in the 90's. And a well-presented story about that clash of ideologies between classic heroes and the vigilante generation is a fine idea. I just don't think "Kingdom Come" *was* that well-presented story, for all the reasons I outlined. ******* On a related note, anyone read any of Alan Moore's "1963" comics? It was a six issue Image series, with each issue attempting to recreate a Marvel-style hero from the Lee/Kirby/Ditko heyday of the 60's. There's a Fantastic Four-type team, a Spider-Man-type, a Doctor Strange-type, etc. They weren't parodies really, almost just these heartfelt homages to the unfettered and innocent approach to superheroes back in the day. Beautifully done stuff. Each of the "1963" books ended with their respective hero or heroes being transported into the future, where we'd glimpse them coming face-to-face with some of the modern Image heroes and end with a "to be continued." There was meant to be a giant 7th issue that chronicled what happened when all the classic heroes met the moderns, and I could only assume it would be some kind of scathing critique of how bleak the genre had become. How could Image publish a series that would end up savaging them, I wondered? Did they not see the irony? Were they so desperate to claim Alan Moore as a contributor that they didn't care what he'd do? Well, we'll never know, because for various reasons, that 7th issue never happened (remember how utterly confused Image was as a company in those early days? Projects fell apart right and left). I wish to hell I knew how Alan Moore planned to wrap "1963", because my guess is that it would've addressed the same issues as "Kingdom Come" in a far superior way for me. Damn.
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And yes i'm sure one of the boys could portray the girl.Me personally, i'm still waiting for a WATCHMAN movie.
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THIS could be THE funniest black-comedy comic adapt to come down the line since . . . well, the funniest black-comedy comic adapt EVER!. Now, there'd have to be certain stipulations - the film would have to be written in a collaboration between the man who made DP great - Joe Kelly, and the man who made intensley violent movies with socially depraved characters a hit - Quentin Tarentino.
Deadpool as a movie could truly be absolutely sensational and truly deserves to be done. -
The whole Cap/Nazi thing is ludicrous. The Red Skull has noted the blonde and blue eyes thing numerous times in the comic. Cap was created that way to add insult to injury when he defeats the Nazis and the Skull. Think of how disheartening it would be to see a member of their so-called master race fighting against them and winning. It is an amazing form of psychological warfare. Red Skull-Robert Carlysle. I saw the Bond movie last night. He's so damn cool. Imagine his bald head from that film all shrivelled up and red, smoking a thin cigarette. Too cool. Cast Christopher Walken as Arnim Zola and maybe Van Damme as Crossbones, the Skull's henchman (To the guy suggesting ol' Jean Claude as Cap, can I have a little of what you are smoking?). The Cap series by Mark Waid/Kevin McGuire a few years back was called Captain America:Sentinel of Liberty and it was an awesome read and would make a kick ass film. I still think half of the film should take place in the past and half in the present. Anyway, the big guy from Gladiator would be kind of cool as Thor. I still like my idea of James Woods as Loki. He has the acidic personality to bring the Trickster God to life. And resurrect Oliver Reed to play Odin. And Jason Lee IS Deadpool if they ever decide to make that into a film, but that book sucks though since Joe Kelly left. I hope Artisan knows what they are getting into. Some of those properties need lots of $$$ to be done properly. Morbius, Ant-Man, Mort, and Deadpool may be able to survive on a shoestring budget, but Cap and Thor need mucho, mucho dolores to bring their epic stories to life.
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OK so it's not quite xenophobic. But it's fun to 'yank people's chains' on this talk back. What it is, however, is flag waving hyper patriotism. I personally don't like it. Captain America stinks of ww2 propoganda. Not that I condone the Nazi party of the 1930's but let it remain history.
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...but "Watchmen" is almost certainly as unfilmable as "Kingdom Come". The reason "Kingdom" wouldn't work (beyond my opinion of the weak content) is that the story relies so heavily on insular DC trivia - only the most rabid of comic fans would "get" it. Naturally, the copyright issues of involving so many heroes is also a massive stumbling block. I'm sure individual films are being developed for Batman, Superman, Wonder Women, Captain Marvel, and many others, and securing the rights to have them all in the same flick seems pretty unlikely. Same reason we'll probably never see "The Avengers" adapted (and I'm talkin' "The Mighty Avengers", not the Brit show). As for "Watchmen", it's simply too big for the screen to handle. Considering the large cast, decades-spanning plot, and overlapping narratives, I fear that so much would be lost in condensing it to even three hours that it's best left untouched. Terry Gilliam gave it a go once or twice and came to the same conclusion. From the film executive's point of view, it's hard to imagine "Watchmen" being a big hit among mainstream audiences either, no matter how brilliant the story. How many people are going to be interested in a darkly complex deconstruction of superheroes? Selling *regular* superheroes to filmgoers is hard enough as is... In the end it's probably for the best, because if Hollywood can screw up something as pure as "Batman", you better believe the "Watchmen" that'd make it to the screen would probably be unrecognizable. Like you, I'd love to see the non-comics audience somehow exposed to Alan Moore's brilliant dystopia though. It's such a shame that a masterwork like "Watchmen" seems destined to be seen by so few. Short of adapting it as the biggest budgeted BBC miniseries of all time, though, it's best left as a comic.
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I think it would be an interesting story to see Cap fighting the Nazis as a propaganda tool for the government during WWII and then have him revived in today's society and come to the realization that he was used. The ideals of the past don't work anymore and that would make a great conflict for a movie.
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In response to the comment that "Captain America stinks of WWII patriotic propoganda" -- that's exactly why I feel the character would be more relevant and much more three-dimensional if set in modern times like the current comicbook. The jingoistic propaganda of the World War II era doesn't detract from the fact that the Allies of WWII honestly felt (and I think we can all agree, rightfully felt) that they were fight a moral war, standing up against the evil of Nazism, and trying to combat Hitler's mad quest for world domination. I mean, it's a "comic book plot" that would be laughed at nowadays but it was the real thing back then. So, having Cap in modern America, where the lines between good and evil aren't as clearly defined, where some pepole now in hindsight question some of the Allied tactics of WWII like dropping two nuclear bombs on Japanese civilian populations, would create conflict for Cap. He'd start questioning his purpose and his own government. I think this could be a very complex, powerful film if done right. But if it's just an action-adventure movie, or a flag-waving nostalgia piece, I think the character will be ill-served, and the movie a disappointment.
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...I actually think an adventure-oriented story would be a better draw for audiences for an *initial* Captain America movie. Ideally, I see the film as patriotic, Indy Jones-style high adventure, balanced by more than a touch of World War II grit. In the follow-up movie, the "Empire Strikes Back" of the series, you bring Cap into the more morally ambiguous present. But trying to make the first film overly serious or relevant may well strike audiences as silly. When you consider Cap's comic-booky origin and red, white, and blue costume, I think you need to allow for an over-the-top introduction piece.
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I just have a bad feeling that if the first Captain America movie is a "period" action film (like Rocketeer) we'll never get a chance to see the "more serious" sequel. I think you can have a big adventure film that also deals with complex issues and three dimensional characters. (For example, Mel Gibson's suicidal manic-depressive character in the first LETHAL WEAPON). As always, it all depends on the script -- we need a good story. And I don't see the big attraction in just watching Captain America kick Axis ass. I'm much more eager to see Captain America, a war hero who used to kick Axis ass, living in modern times and kicked Neo-Nazi and skinhead ass, while at the same time battling his own government's agents who have a different agenda than he does. Let's just hope that whatever direction Artisan and Marvel decide on, they take it seriously and think it through.
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*lol* Gosh, my parade has been rained on quite a bit. It's keen, though. I totally agree with you in terms of the "Watchmen" being made. "Watchmen" is merely a fantasy project I'd love see. If Terry Gilliam had been able to go through with it, it would have been great. But, if Gilliam directed it, "Watchmen" would no doubt be a commercial failure. Not only would the subject matter be way over today's audiences' heads, but many of today's film goers complain about Gilliam's style (several of my friends for some reason cannot sit through "Brazil" because they think it's too wierd or they don't get the satire of beuracracy). The fact, however, that you mentioned Gilliam and "Watchmen" in one sentence made me perk up. Too bad it's impossible. At least another Alan Moore classic, "From Hell", is getting to see celluloid. As for "1963", I missed that series. Now that you mention how it was a throwback to old times and better heroes, I may just pick it up. During the time "1963" came out, I was a dirty fanboy immersed in the idiocy of Image Comics... oy vey. "Hehe, look, man, Stephen Platt is drawin' Prophet and there's tons of bullet shells in this splash page. It's awesome." Wasn't until four years ago I wised up and I've regretted every moment of it. I now have a bin full of horrible, horrible Image Comics not worth the paper they're printed on. At least I wasn't a big Valiant colector, then I really would've gotten burned. Anyways, take care. Mr. Sartre, late for class...
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May 18, 2000 12:26:25 PM CDT
I agree with Coromorant -- Kingdom Come and The Watchmen are unf
by superninja
However, I think Kingdom Come would make one hell of a t.v. animated miniseries, along with Batman's The Long Halloween. You could make a Watchmen movie, from Rorsachs's POV, I suppose -- but huge chunks of the plot would have to be cut. All of that deep emotional stuff with Manhattan causing cancer and whatnot would end up being deflated. I think Terry Gilliam would be an EXCELLENT fit for a Dr. Strange film - his take on astro-realm would be fantastic! I also agree with Cormorant that I would like to see Cap in an Indiana-Jones-style adventure. Rocketeer is a fun film, but the script is rather weak, and the characters cliched. Indiana Jones IS a period film, but the beauty of it is that it never really occurs to you through the dialogue and storyline that it IS a period film -- the costumes and settings speak for themselves. The Nazis are the bad guys -- flat out -- there are no explanations needed about their goals, no length dialogue on why they believe they're the master race...You just take it for face value that they're bad. I do think that making Cap go on a "secret mission" is a big mistake, though. The guy stands out like a sore thumb because of his costume, AND THAT'S THE POINT! He's a symbol to even the odds (the Nazis's own Super Soldier program w/the Red Skull), and to boost morale for the Allied effort over in war-torn Europe. I wouldn't even get into the whole "propaganda" thing until a second film, and then he can go back and reflect on the events in the first film, and how he was used for propaganda over in the States during WWII.
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May 18, 2000 12:38:52 PM CDT
The whole Captain America thing would have to have a well-define
by superninja
Otherwise, you're going to descend into the land of superhero cliches. If I had to do a trilogy with this character, I would do the following: Film 1, set in WWII. This film would define the moral aspects of the character, and show him growing from a naive soldier into the legend he is known as today. High adventure with strong characterization. Film 2, set in the 60s. Cap is awakened in modern times, and finds that he is a man-out-of-time. The morals aren't TOTALLY different yet, but social change is beginning. He looked upon as a living legend, and has to come to terms with the fact that he was used by his own government as propaganda. Film 3, set in the present. The world has changed, but Cap hasn't. Americans have become cynical towards their government (Watergate, Vietnam, Clinton scandal) -- and its "symbols". Cap is looked at by today's jilted generation as an anachronism with outdated ideas who is a government puppet. Cap has to come to terms with this and make his stand.
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Good ideas, but skip Films 1 and 2 and jump right into your idea for Film 3. That's the juicy movie I want to see. :) Peace out.
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I think Cap's story can be told in one film. Set up Cap as the icon he is during WWII. The idealism and the symbolism of the character can be highlighted during this section of the film by showing him rallying the troops and boosting morale in desperate times. In the final days of the fall of the Third Reich, Cap and the Skull have it out. Resulting in the foiling of the Skull's plans and Cap's disappearance in the ice. Years pass and in Cap's absence, the ideals of the country have gone the way of the dodo. Mom and apple pie has been replaced by Monica and Columbine and American Pie. The us vs. them (black and white) mentality has blurred and now it is us vs. us vs. them vs themselves. The war isn't simple anymore and the enemy is less defined. Cap is found and revived. At first he is used by the government to work for them, which Cap willingly accepts since he is used to following orders in the war. But as his adventures in the modern time progress he has trouble differentiating between who the enemy is and who are his allies. The Red Skull, kept alive and revived earlier, is rounding up Neo-Nazis and Militia groups throughout America. The Skull could be the immediate threat, but the greater conflict is between Cap and his realization that the government that he once bled for has changed in his absence. Cap could uncover that the Skull is being funded by a branch of the government. The real challenge in the story would be Cap's crusade to bring the pride and glory back to the American people. Cap can be used as a symbol of what it means to be an American and how that has changed over the years. The film ends with Cap coming to terms with what the role of Captain America means. That the role is bigger than the government. He realizes that he is more than a foot soldier, but a symbol for everyone to look up to and strive to become. The film should end on an up note with Cap accepting the role as a symbol of hope and make you feel proud to be American. I know this concept is a little starry-eyed, but when was the last time you saw a movie, other than an old WWII film, that made you proud in that way? Certainly not Saving Private Ryan. I felt respect for the people who gave their lives in WWII after seeing that film, but not pride. These are bleak times and patriotism is practically dead. I know optimism is a filthy word in these talkbacks, but this is a fantasy film and I would love to see them try to make this into a patriotic epic with a good conflict rather than a Cap thwarting the Red Skull's big plan typical super hero film scenario.
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That's the movie I want to see!(But, since we live in skeptical times, it should come as no surprise that I doubt we'll ever see it.) Peace.
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May 18, 2000 3:30:06 PM CDT
Ambush Bug...how is that going to make me fall in love with the
by superninja
You throw him into modern times, no explanation save a couple of flashbacks -- who is going to care about this character? Fourteen year olds everywhere are going to think this is the squarest, most boring superhero they've ever seen, but wow can't he do a neat backflip! You have to make Cap cool, and then build from there. The audience has to UNDERSTAND why this man adheres to his old-fashioned values and sympathize with him. Through Cap's eyes, we need to see hope, despite how cynical the world has become, and to believe this man can make things right. If you don't show him at first in his early stages, the audience won't buy into why this guy holds to old-fashioned ideals and they certainly won't see why everyone else should agree. This is the age of Wolverine -- people like anti-heroes. They sell a $hitload of comic books. But someone like Cap needs to be explained to the kiddies so they "get it" and don't just few him as some out-of-touch anachronism. That is the danger with this character -- making him come off as out-of-touch with society. It will self-destruct the film and should be avoided at all costs.
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...what about Doom?
We need a Dr. Doom movie! YESH! -
The character conflict is how Cap deals with the changes in ideals that have happened in America through the years. His goal should be to change the minds of those who look at him as a dinosaur and make being an American citizen stand for something in these pessimistic times. I don't think they should gloss over his days in WWII. I never said to use WWII in a flashback. The first third of the film could deal with this period of time. The second part could be his revival and his dedicated service to a government that is very different from the one he is used to. The third act is Cap's realization that the government has changed and can have Cap grow into a symbol of the people, not a foot soldier of the govt. The character development has Cap moving from unquestioning servitude to the realization of what exactly it means to be an American. I think the message here is that while the days of the blindly following the flag are over, there are a lot of ideals that can stand the test of time. And Cap stands for those ideals. Yes, the Punisher and Wolverine worshippers will say the concept sucks, but grim and gritty has been played out. I don't want Superman/Boyscout stuff. But a good conflict as to just what it is about being American and what makes that special is something that hasn't been seen in films for years.
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I want them to remake "The Punisher" RIGHT this time, although I think the time has past for the "relatives/friends die, turn into killing machine" storyline that has been played out in the past 10 years (or even way back to "Death Wish" days), but he used to kick ass in his heyday in the 80's, especially when he entered Spidey's world. Here's to hoping for a cameo in SPIDER-MAN!!! :)
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...and more believably, without superheroes. All the parachuting into fortresses, the secret missions, the wartime heroism -- anybody ever watch the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles? Some doggone good movies, those.
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http://www.geocities.com/souperninja/capa.jpg Keep in mind, it's ROUGH. So all you flaming bastards keep it to yourselves. It's a big download, so be patient.
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I think that would be really hard to convey. The script would have to be extremely good.
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Really, Harry, can't you edit the posts from your correspondents a little more aggressively? Or at all? I'm sick of having to scroll down through 5 or 6 paragraphs of the writer's personal history, opinions, and what he had for lunch today before I get to the news, which, I might remind you, is THE MAIN POINT of this site. Really, I'm sure you're all just lovely people in real life, but could you just put that stuff at the end of the post for the people who might care?
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I'm sorry, but Marvel and movies have not matched ever. We finally have a potential winner here with the X-Men, but all of the now contracted heroes have been tossed back and forth for years. I remember getting all excited about the rumors of a Black Panther movie when I was 14. That was over ten years ago. If X-Men is pulled off without a bomb, then I'm going to be shocked. However, Stan the man left us with numerous wretched Hulk movies after the series that never captured the essence of the great hero. He gave us three really horrible Captain America movies, from the 70's and late 80's. Do we want to see our childhood heroes put through that again? I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see good movies happen for Marvel, I'm just saying until we see that the scripts aren't beyond junk and a script actually exist, don't count on it. Why wait another decade for something that won't be pulled off.
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A Cap movie along the lines of the Waid/Maguire "Adventures of Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty" miniseries would be outstanding. It would have action and adventure but would also have a great storyline (e.g. Steve Roger's self-doubt on becoming the icon of America's involvement in WWII). Also, to address the question of Cap's blond-haired, blue-eyed 'master race' appearance, the miniseries included two 'non-Aryans' as potential candidates for the "Super Soldier" project who were ultimately not selected (for reasons completely unrelated to their appearance/ethnicity/etc). That could easily be incorporated into a film.
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May 19, 2000 5:24:25 PM CDT
Yeah, that "Sentinel of Liberty" miniseries was cool (and those
by dave_f
For whatever reasons, Kevin Maguire didn't do the art on the final issue! And the replacement was just passable, nothing special. God, nothing highlights the failure of assembly-line comics more than having a creative break-up in the space of a mere *four issues*! And by the way, why has Kevin Maguire faded so much in recent years? I like the guy, but he never seems to choose a decent project...
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McGuire needs to get back to the Justice League or over to Spidey. I know the JLA has come a long way from the Giffen/McGuire days, but there was a Blue Beetle and Booster Gold story in last year's JLA 80 pg Giant about a killer rat that made me yearn for those good old goofy days of the JLA. This has been a pretty cool talkback, I keep on coming back and having more to say and seeing that the rest of you guys do too.
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