Quint chats life, addiction and documentary filmmaking with Paul Williams Still Alive team Stephen Kessler and Paul Williams!
Ahoy, squirts! Quint here with the first of two interviews with Mr. Paul Williams. If you know who the man is you won’t be surprised that after completing the below chat with him and director Stephen Kessler about their documentary that I asked Mr. Williams if he’d be willing to do an AICN Legends discussion with me as well.
He consented immediately and I have a great hour-long talk with him about his life and art that’ll post sometime next week. Even though that one’s coming up, we still talk a little about his film work in this interview, most notably Phantom of the Paradise, Bugsy Malone and Ishtar.
Williams is joined by his director in the below chat and it’s a lively one. The documentary, Paul Williams Still Alive, is a great little film that delivers a real insight into Williams as a personality, his ups and downs and where he is today.
Both Kessler and Williams are very open in this chat… note the bit where they’re discussing Williams’ addiction to drugs and alcohol and how that effected his artistic output for a prime example of that openness.
Just like in the film, you can tell that Kessler and Williams like each other, but aren’t afraid to push each others’ buttons a bit. It’s a fun chat, for sure.
The film is slowly expanding across the country. It is open in New York and it just opened in LA at the Nuart this Friday (get tickets here).
Enjoy the chat!
QUINT: But yeah, no I’ve been a big fan of yours since forever.
PAUL WILLIAMS: Since 1927, when I began making movies.
QUINT: (Laughs) Yeah, retroactively I’ve been a fan. Of course I grew up with the Muppets and Bugsy Malone and all of that stuff, but it was when I saw Phantom of the Paradise in my teen years that everything kind of clicked for me. I’m a huge De Palma fan and so I have to ask a couple of things about Phantom if you wouldn’t mind.
PAUL WILLIAMS: Sure, not at all.
QUINT: Because that movie is so unique and specific to that time and place that I don’t know, there’s just this amazing energy to it. There’s just nothing like it. There really isn’t and nobody is doing that kind of thing today.
STEPHEN KESSLER: Yeah, no one will give you money to that now.
QUINT: And people seem to try to manufacture that kind of energy and that cult success today. I went to the very first screening of Repo: The Genetic Opera here in Austin and there were already people in costume who hadn’t seen the film or the play. They just seemed to want to be a part of it before they even knew if they liked it… It just felt inauthentic to me, a manufactured cult classic.
PAUL WILLIAMS: You know what I think that’s going to happen with is Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World. I think it’s a great film. I don’t know how large the success was, but I don’t remember reading great reviews for it or whatever. I’m a huge Edgar Wright fan and I mean Shaun of the Dead is one of most killer films of all time, but I think that as the years go by, I think that Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World is going to have a monstrous, monstrous following.
QUINT: I think you’re right. It had the support of the geeks, but the mainstream didn’t get it.
PAUL WILLIAMS: It was so inventive. I mean it was a great film. I think that Phantom was… First of all what was great for me is to step outside of writing from the center of my chest for all of these what I call “Ouch, Mommy” songs, you know the stuff for The Carpenters of Three Dog Night or whatever, but because I love movies, I started out as an actor, it was a chance to do something with a really edgy film director, the brilliant Brian De Palma, but also to satirize all of these different kinds of music that I love.
I mean I’m a big Beach Boys fan. Tony Asher who wrote “God Only Knows” was a former writing partner of Roger Nichols, my writing partner. They’re just stunning. I mean you listen to those melodies with “Little Surfer Girl” or “God Only Knows.” I mean please! But to kind of go from the ‘50s sound, the Beach Boys, and then to try to invent what was kind of a glam rock thing with The Undead and with Beef was a real challenge, you know? It was great fun.
QUINT: Well one of the things I love about the movie so much, especially with your participation, is that not only do you have your music, but you got to play a great, iconic villain.
PAUL WILLIAMS: I loved that. What a great character to play, the devil. I mean you get to play the Devil.
QUINT: I very much liked the film, Paul Williams Still Alive. I was talking a little bit with Stephen about this earlier, but I’m not usually a fan of documentaries where the documentarian steps in front of the camera and not because I don’t think it’s a viable option, but because nine times out of ten they are doing it for the wrong reasons. They are dong it because they want to be the focus, they want to be the subject.
PAUL WILLIAMS: This was a very different energy, I think. The thing is his being in it begins with me saying “I’m sorry I can’t. This feels like such bullshit.” I can play to the camera as an entertainer. I can ignore it as an actor, but for me to be like ‘Do I not look at the camera while I’m answering questions and I’m not looking at you?’ What usually winds up on the cutting room floor for most documentaries became an important part of the body of this film, I think.
So this film, I think is much about the process of the filmmaker and the subject evolving through the filmmaking process as it is about anything else.
STEPHEN KESSLER: We started talking about it yesterday, because Eric said usually he hates movies where the filmmaker is in the movie and you know there are film festivals that at first my film didn’t get into, because there are people who have a very pure view of what documentaries are. Very unintentionally I kind of now have this side mission to talk about what documentaries should become and if a documentary is going to be honest, that filmmakers aren’t obligated to make a movie the way the Maysles Brothers made it any more than a great narrative storyteller is obligated to tell a story the way Truffaut told stories in the sixties.
Because equipment has changed and because what everybody’s relationship with cameras has become, like to act like Paul is over there and I’m over here and we don’t have any relationship emerging is kind of dishonest. Not in every story, but in a story like mine it does a disservice to telling this story and ultimately I realized that the most honest way I could tell the story of who he is right now is to show what his relationship was with me and how it was changing and documentaries are supposed to be honest and that was the most honest thing I could do.
I was always super sensitive to how I came off in this movie and that the movie was never about me, that any time I was in the movie it was only to illuminate who Paul was.
QUINT: Yeah, but in an odd way it kind of became a hook for me, because as a fan of Paul’s I can relate to that approach. Because you open it pretty much saying “Here I am. This is my life. This is what I grew up with. The guys on the TV were my friends.” It becomes kind of like this parallel story of not only catching up with you, Paul, and finding out a little bit more about you life and your struggles and your successes and your family, it also becomes clear that there’s a B story of Stephen getting to know one of your idols. The two storylines don’t conflict with each other and that’s something that impresses me about the documentary as a whole.
PAUL WILLIAMS: It’s rare, isn’t it?
PAUL WILLIAMS: I love the thing you put in the beginning about showing where you lived. It really frames where your life was then.
STEPHEN KESSLER: Yeah, in a real short hand and it took a long time… There was one version of this movie that I made that opened with me. It was five minutes about me and really it came from watching the beginning of ROGER AND ME, because ROGER AND ME… He does it so brilliantly and he had the films to support it, but ultimately those films also told you the story of everybody who grew up in Flint and I realized for me with this film it didn’t need that much of me, it just needed a two second picture to see who I was and a picture of my apartment and you got it.
PAUL WILLIAMS: It’s a great short hand.
STEPHEN KESSLER: Yeah, it worked really effectively.
QUINT: One of the more touching parts of the doc for me was Paul talking that you weren’t trying for popularity so you could be better than everybody else, you were just trying to reach for normalcy.
PAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think there’s a place in the film where I say that it’s an interesting leap to go from feeling different to feeling special and feeling different is a difficult feeling, feeling special is addictive and it became one of my two key addictions. Obviously it’s still an addiction. You look at TMZ and watching what everybody is doing, it’s addictive for not only the entertainer or the subject, but it’s addictive for the audience. But the difference for me is I had two addictions. I had the addiction to the drugs and alcohol. I had the addiction to the camera being on me and drugs and alcohol won, you know? They just outrun the other one.
QUINT: To me, the fascinating thing of it is watching Paul kind of agree to doing this documentary and then realizing how invasive it is and how you, Stephen, have to keep pushing it and sometimes be the dick that’s always in his face with the camera. I’m sure that happens in almost every doc, but you never see that part of it.
STEPHEN KESSLER: At some point he talked about “Time and Tide” and Paul says “That was in the movie” and I said “Lifeguard” and he looked at me when I said that like “Oh, actually maybe he knows my work and maybe it’s okay a little bit.” I think there were little cues that he started saying “Okay, well maybe this guy isn’t here to ruin my life.”
Also at the beginning I said, “If there’s anything in the movie you don’t like, I will take it out.” I mean that’s been really extraordinary between us, the trust we’ve developed between each other has been extraordinary and you see the whole relationship on film. You see how we are. You see when he gets mad at me, you know? And you see when we are really affected by each other, so I think that’s what people are connecting to in the film.
PAUL WILLIAMS: I think that’s what is interesting with that opening, just to interrupt, he did make that statement “I’ll take anything out” and then at the time he didn’t know about what he was going to be showing me, but he lived by it and if I had said “That has to go” it would have gone.
QUINT: But you let the scene when Stephen shows you the footage of yourself out of your mind on drugs.
PAUL WILLIAMS: The stuff that was so hard to watch, but I think it also says something about the kind of filmmaker he is that when I saw it in context, when I saw it cut into the film, there’s no way it could not be in there, you know?
STEPHEN KESSLER: You know, Paul was in the The Loved One. Paul talks about Truffaut. I know that Paul is very serious about the filmmaking. He’s made films himself. I had a feeling that he would really like what I had in my head. When he gave me all of that old footage and he didn’t know what was in there and I saw that think of him in his bathroom with the lighter filming, you get the idea that he is high. You don’t see him doing any drugs, but you get the idea that he is high. I was like “What? There’s no way he could possibly know that he has this.” Did you know that you had that?
PAUL WILLIAMS: Oh, I knew about it. I spent an evening filming it! I was probably in there filming a rug, doing like…
STEPHEN KESSLER: Oh no, that wasn’t in there. That would be in the movie!
PAUL WILLIAMS: It’s great, because I would start shooting a pattern in the rug, tilt up as a I rack focus to the daylight beginning to come through a window, past that and up to a chandelier and I was just playing with the technique of focus. “What happens when you rack?” You get caught up on the flame and racking focus to the mirror, but you don’t think about what somebody is going to think when they find this shit later! It was like “For the first time in my life I’ve got a video camera in my hand and I own it.”
STEPHEN KESSLER: I think also, and this had nothing to do with me trying to get Paul’s approval or not, but I did one cut of the film that in a sense was very judgmental about the drug use and about showing Paul like “Look, he’s high on TV here and he’s drunk on TV here” and then as I did more research I started going like “Oh look, Johnny Carson might be a little high here and Burt Reynolds might be a little drunk there and here’s George Peppard who’s fucked up over here…”
PAUL WILLIAMS: I’m surprised you didn’t put the Peppard scene in the movie.
STEPHEN KESSLER: It was too long a story to tell, that’s why I could never get it in. He’s talking about this… My iconic Tonight Show, it’s burned in my head from when I was ten years old, is Paul is on the Tonight Show with George Peppard and they are both drunk and they almost get into a fistfight. I remember it so well. When I watched it as an adult I still remember it perfectly, but it was too long a story to get into a movie and it doesn’t have the same meaning for other people that it did for me.
Anyway, what I was saying is when I saw that everybody was high on TV at that time, I realized that it wasn’t right to make a judgment about Paul being high on TV.
QUINT: It also doesn’t feel like it fits into the tone of the rest of the story, at least from what ended up on the screen. It feels like so much more of a buddy movie. One of my favorite little moments and its something, a testament to you as a filmmaker that you would leave it in there is when you ask Paul the question where he reacts in such a way that he’s like “I’ve never seen this side of you, it feels like you’re digging at me.”
PAUL WILLIAMS: “Dirty.”
QUINT: You thought it was dirty, yeah.
STEPHEN KESSLER: And actually you know what? That day you said that to me, that was the last thing I filmed for the film.
STEPHEN KESSLER: Yeah. I actually filmed that after he gave me all of the boxes of the tapes. I had done a full cut of the movie where that interview that goes throughout the movie now, that’s the key to the movie, wasn’t even in the movie.
STEPHEN KESSLER: A 90 minute cut of the film and my producer, Jim Czarnecki who did FAHRENHEIT 9/11, he looked at it and goes “This movie is missing a comprehensive interview.” Then it was editor, David Zieff, who looked at the interview and said “All these times when you’re fighting, that’s what we need.”
But that day when Paul said that to me, which wasn’t even that long ago, I was so surprised that he felt so hurt by my saying that to him. When I look back at it, so many people have said to me “That was a really insensitive thing you said to him.” I’m always surprised that things could still wound you so deeply when it comes to talking about that part of your life, but thank God they do, because that’s why we have a great movie. (laughs) I’m saying that as a joke, but really for other people who are in recovery and other people who have had their lives affected by alcoholism and addiction it’s meaningful to see that where you’re at, because everybody has those feelings, right? Everybody has them.
PAUL WILLIAMS: I don’t know if everybody has that feeling, but that specific stuff about “You’re off doing The Gong Show” and I’m not sure if I talk about it in the film or not, but I think I talk about the fact that becoming bitter and showing off… my craft suffered. My writing suffered.
One of the elements of the alcohol and cocaine is this kind of grandiosity of “Well now I’m going to move up into the very intellectual place to approach my writing and it’s going to be soooo interesting.” Well it loses its authenticity in that, so the connection with the listener is gone, because the ego is doing the writing instead of the heart. It’s not even the head is doing the writing instead of the heart, it’s that fear-based ego.
But yeah, you know looking back a part of me goes “Geez, I would have loved to…” I knew a lot of the Saturday Night Live guys. I mean I tried to smack Belushi once and Peter Boyle picked me up and carried me away and said, “He’s not worth it.” I was around those guys and was around it a bit and all, but was never asked to do it. I would have loved to have done it. I would have loved to have written “50 Ways To Leave Your Lover.”
STEPHEN KESSLER: Yeah, I mean there are a lot of things we all would love to do, but we can’t.
PAUL WILLIAMS: But the question was pretty interesting the way you posed it. It’s like you had found your way into the maze of cinematic prick and it showed. (laughs)
STEPHEN KESSLER: I think what I meant to ask….
PAUL WILLIAMS: And I love him for it. He’s examining.
STEPHEN KESSLER: I think what I meant to ask was “Do you have an awareness when your creativity is sliding?”
PAUL WILLIAMS: “Do you have an awareness of how shallow you had become?”
STEPHEN KESSLER: That’s certainly how it sounded. You can see it’s still a sore point! Of course you don’t have an awareness. I don’t know when my work is getting better and worse, you know? I’m fucking getting nominated for an Academy Award and then I’m doing Vegas Vacation and now I’m doing this.
PAUL WILLIAMS: In the midst of it, in the midst of the 80’s I wrote “Telling the truth can be dangerous business. Honest and popular don’t go hand in hand. If you admit that you can play the accordion, no one will hire you in a rock and roll band.” (Quint note, if you don’t recognize the lyric it’s from Ishtar) Maybe as good of writing as I have ever done where I as an actor became these two mismatched writers. There are places in the midst of this blizzard of cocaine and alcohol where I did work that meaningful.
STEPHEN KESSLER: But the answer that you give and the thing that you actually say that’s so great is that even when you were just high and doing The Match Game, that brought a lot of joy to people, right? Including me. Including me as a little kid or seeing you on The Mike Douglas Show. I might not have the same connection with you intuitively if you didn’t do that stuff also.
QUINT: I’m a big fan of The Match Game, actually.
PAUL WILLIAMS: It was great fun.
STEPHEN KESSLER: I mean I love that Bob Dylan wrote “If my thought-dreams could be seen, they’d stick my head in the guillotine,” but I wouldn’t want to go hang out with Bob Dylan. I wouldn’t want to go follow him around for a couple of years. I could care less about what Bob Dylan does all day.
PAUL WILLIAMS: And the other side of it is that I would have loved to have seen into Leonard Cohen’s life that much. I mean, I would like to see what the guy that wrote “Dance Me to the End of Love” is like on The Hollywood Squares, you know? (laughs)
And that’s it for round 1 with Paul Williams! Check back next week for my lengthy AICN Legends interview with Paul! It’s really wonderful. We talk about everything from The Loved One to Marlon Brando to his time in the Apes universe to his one regret about Bugsy Malone to which of his songs is his favorite (it’s one of mine, too). Don’t miss it!
In the meantime, if Paul Williams Still Alive comes anywhere near you, do yourself a favor and give it a watch. It’s a fun flick. In fact, Chicago folk have a chance to catch it this Saturday, June 30th, at the Gene Siskel Film Center where Williams will be interviewed on stage by some gangster sounding jackass named Capone.
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June 23, 2012, 5:07 a.m. CST
Am I the only one who read this? Good interview. I hope you asked Williams about his work with Goldsmith for THE SECRET OF NIMH.
Otherwise, remember Williams from the Muppets and the Gong Show, mostly.
June 23, 2012, 7:17 a.m. CST
I did wonder what happened to him during the 80s, but then I heard his voice as The Penguin during the animated series.
June 23, 2012, 7:18 a.m. CST
He'd be like some gravelly voiced version of Richard Dawson, just to far away from the female contestants to kiss them.
June 23, 2012, 7:21 a.m. CST
by Nasty In The Pasty
And I wonder if licencing the Paul Williams vocal of "Flying Dreams" might be the reason we haven't seen an expanded version of Goldsmith's exceptional Secret Of NIMH score yet (when almost every other score from his peak late-70's/early-80's period has been).
June 23, 2012, 9 a.m. CST
by Grammaton Cleric Binks
professional as always Quint. Match Game, yeah. Did I blink or was there no mention of Little Enos?
June 23, 2012, 9:01 a.m. CST
by Grammaton Cleric Binks
June 23, 2012, 9:43 a.m. CST
It's a song of Paul's that should be more well known
June 23, 2012, 9:56 a.m. CST
Meet him there ..nice guy
June 23, 2012, 10:12 a.m. CST
i thinkif Harry can reconnect his head with his bommerange throwin decapitations....then he's made it with ta hot chicks
But i have less than a thought
June 23, 2012, 10:37 a.m. CST
as the Penguin on Batman: The Animated Series. It worked so well and wish he, along with Richard Moll's Two-Face, could've had the same sort of lasting recognition that Mark Hamill gets for The Joker.
June 23, 2012, 11:39 a.m. CST
It's Paul "Muthafuckin'" Williams for Cthulhu's sake!! The only reason I can even guess why this isn't labeled as a LEGENDS interview is because Stephen Kessler is there, but honestly, you could have edited his ass out and just left us with the legend that is Paul Williams.
June 23, 2012, 11:40 a.m. CST
Too long to wait
June 23, 2012, 11:51 a.m. CST
When I was a kid I saw him as a villain on a WWW reunion TV movie... I think he played Dr Loveless' son. He had an army of evil clones and atomic bombs. For some reason this appearance has stuck with me as the definitive Paul Williams image. Then the same basic movie was remade a year or two later with Jonathan Winters in the same part!
June 23, 2012, 12:54 p.m. CST
June 23, 2012, 4:35 p.m. CST
"Waaaahhh!! I don't understand the "cult" following so it must not be real" At least the great Paul Williams had enough class to not slag another film and offered up a few more good movies.
June 23, 2012, 5:07 p.m. CST
This has probably already been floated by someone else, or even considered yourself, but is it possible to audio record and either have a streaming or downloadable MP3 link to the interview? I know it's a pain, and very likely difficult, but that would dramatically widen your audience for these, as people would listen to them while we work. And having an archived area for back interviews. Thanks
June 23, 2012, 10:45 p.m. CST
by Paul Shade
is one of the greatest albums ever. can't wait to see this and Paul next saturday at the Gene Siskel screening.
June 24, 2012, 3:47 a.m. CST
Why do people keep insisting those who didn't like it "didn't get it"? I got it alright. I hated it because it was sooooo smug. It failed to straddle that tiny and thin dividing line between self aware and smug. A lot of people realised that and gave it a massive thumbs down. I can do smug sometimes, but hipster smug is just too much. It was a physical reaction rather than a critical one.
June 24, 2012, 5:49 a.m. CST
Michael Cera just looked lost in that role.
June 24, 2012, 6:15 a.m. CST
I did, but he went off the record with his response. I can only say that whatever god you pray to, send one up tonight that his Guillermo collaboration happens.
June 24, 2012, 6:20 a.m. CST
I have no doubt that the film has authentic fans now. The flick didn't do much for me personally, but that's not why I dumped on it in the interview. I dumped on the fact that I saw one of the very first public screenings and the costumed people, the hardcore fans, were hardcore fans of something they'd never seen. They were fans for the sake of being fans of something, which I said and fully believe felt incredibly inauthentic to me. That's not to say the movie doesn't have its fans now, but I can tell you the way the publicity and filmmaking teams were pumping up the film was as a modern day cult classic, a new Rocky Horror... Before anyone ever saw it. The movie was just as calculated as a Dreamworks Animated movie in targeting its audience. Which is fine. Rocky Horror wasn't made for everybody either. I really only took umbrage at hardcore fans showing up before they even knew if they were going to be hardcore fans of it, you know what I mean?
June 24, 2012, 8:40 a.m. CST
by John Baker
This guy has always seemed like a classy and utterly great human being. I grew up hearing his voice work as the Penguin before I ever knew who he was. I think the next time I saw him was years later when I bought and watched Phantom of the Paradise for the first time. I didn't make the connection at the time, but I'm convinced having his oddly familiar voice tucked away in the back of my mind added to his creepiness as Swan in that film for me. Like when you meet someone for the first time and swear you've not only met them before but actuallly know them fairly well. He was great in The Cheap Detective too. Always cracks me up in that film.
June 24, 2012, 9:41 a.m. CST
This should be an interesting docu! Looking forward to seeing it - He's a staple of my childhood, from "The Gong Show" to "The Muppet Show"...
June 24, 2012, 11:26 a.m. CST
I'm not going to waste time here with you going through how REPO was shit on by a studio that had no idea what it had. Hell, Paul Williams Still Alive is showing now on more screens than REPO did when it first came out(which by the way was 0, because the studio didn't put even a minor release of the film out). The only reason, and I mean ONLY reason, REPO has achieved anything is because of the tireless work of the creators and director of the film not giving up on it.......you have to applaud that kind of passion for a film. As for your claim that these fans had no idea what they were seeing, you couldn't be more wrong. Thanks to the power of social media, they knew perfectly well what they were going into........as opposed to some writers here on AICN. C'mon now, how could people dress up as characters from the film if they had no idea what the film was? Look Quint, I respect your hard work and your ability to get to talk to some great people in this industry. I would love to get to interview a legend like Paul Williams, and I'm sure the experience was incredible. My original point was that instead of asking a good question like, "Your movies have seemed to generate an incredible cult following, are there any current movies that you can see that are having the same effect on the audience?", you instead took precious interview time to badmouth a cult film directly to your interview subject.........it's just quite the poor taste on your part. It was delightful to read that Mr. Williams was having none of your slagging on a film and answered your implied question by suggesting that other films that are growing their own cult followings.
June 24, 2012, 3:39 p.m. CST
Constant phones ringing. Trying too hard to be cult. A very annoying movie and no Paul Williams this movie won't be regarded as a classic in 100 years. It's widely forgotten about now.
June 24, 2012, 3:42 p.m. CST
coming from this site? You were the only guys who seemed to be pushing it.
June 24, 2012, 5:42 p.m. CST
The studio and the marketing of the film aren't necessarily the same thing. These guys hire publicity firms during fest runs, so yes... the marketing coming from the filmmakers and publicity teams they hired were doing the hard sell. Trust me. I was there. I received those emails and sales pitches in person. You happen to like this movie, which is fine by me. I'm all for people digging on films. You wouldn't be going out of your way to make this point if you didn't give a shit about Repo. It wouldn't have bugged you that I brought it up in the interview if you didn't care about this one particular movie. Again, my point isn't on the quality of the film. My point is on the fake fandom that it didn't earn, but was begging for long before anyone even got to see it. If it's generated that fanbase now, then well-earned. It was that one extremely early screening that I was referring to and the people who attended.
June 24, 2012, 10:05 p.m. CST
Seriously. Some intense metal band needs to cover that song right now.
June 25, 2012, 12:37 a.m. CST
The point I was making was that you kind of went out of your way to slag a film with a cult following. You could have just asked the great Paul Williams about how he feels about the cult status of his movies and if there were any others he thinks are doing the same. You instead pretty much made a statement about what you thought about a movie that, let's face it, the great Paul Williams probably doesn't know anything about. Oh well, I had my say about this, and you replied, so let's just leave it at that and agree in the end, that Paul Williams is fuckin' awesome!! Looking forward to the actual LEGENDS interview. :-)
June 25, 2012, 4:48 a.m. CST
wetting themselves over Brave, long before it debuted. There was cosplay and fanart all over Tumblr in anticipation of something that ultimately disappointed. No wonder. Geekdom never operated like that. You scrutinized the hell out of something with severe skepticism, until it wowed you, or grew on you. These contemporary faux geeks, men and women, are so embarrassing.
June 25, 2012, 10:58 a.m. CST
by Samuel Fulmer
To get the real scoop if the film was originally shot with Jackie Gleason playing both the Sherrif and the Bandit!
June 25, 2012, 4:39 p.m. CST
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