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Paul Verhoeven Has A JESUS Movie In The Works, To Be Scripted By Roger Avary
Nordling here.
He's talked about making a movie on the life of Jesus Christ for years, but it appears that Paul Verhoeven has his financing in place and also a screenwriter, according to Deadline. His Christ story won't be so much about the miracles or his divinity, but more about how Jesus changed the political scheme in Israel at the time.
Verhoeven wrote JESUS OF NAZARETH, which supposes that instead of a divine birth, Jesus was the product of a rape by a Roman soldier. As a prophet, Jesus railed against the Roman Empire and was crucified because of his radical politics, and Verhoeven spent years researching the subject. Now he has a financial backer in Chris Hanley (Muse Productions) and Roger Avary of PULP FICTION will be doing the script.
I can see the jokes coming now, considering who Verhoeven and Avary are, but apparently this is a very serious subject for the director, and I think he'll treat this obviously sensitive subject fairly. You don't have to share Paul Verhoeven's worldview on the subject, and I'd imagine that easily offended people should likely just steer clear. According to the Deadline article. Verhoeven intends on making a film about the power of Jesus's sacrifice without the miracles surrounding it, and that "...it’s not about miracles, it’s about a new set of ethics, an openness towards the world, which was anathema in a Roman-dominated world. I believe he was crucified because they felt that politically, he was a dangerous person whose following was getting bigger and bigger. Jesus’ ideals are about the utopia of human behavior, about how we should treat each other, how we should step into the shoes of our enemy."
Readers Talkback
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June 20, 2012, 8:14 a.m. CST
FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: PLEASE SIGN AND SEND TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! PLEASE IF WE WORK TOGETHER WE CAN BAN THIS! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by rev_skarekroe
I Can't belive it. There is a movie that is coming out in 2013 saying Jesus and his disciples were gay! There is already a play that went on for a while,but never stopped! Maybe we can all do something! Please send this to ALL of your friends to sign to stop the movie from coming out. Already certain areas in Europe have started to ban it from coming to their country and we can stop too! We just need a lot of signatures and you can help! Please do not delete this! Deleting it will show your lack of faith and a lack of respect for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who died for us! Please help!
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June 20, 2012, 8:17 a.m. CST
Jesus is a lie used to keep the weak minded in line.Their is no actual historical proof he was even real.
by Eric
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June 20, 2012, 8:19 a.m. CST
Nonsense! We all know Jesus was a ten foot tall alien albino!
by blackmantis
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That's where I always go for conscience-building, a guy that says he's God's son. I mean, if that's where Verhoeven is starting, his words with no miracles attached, he's basically following the lead of a seriously psychotic dude.
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Another Hollywood attack on Christian beliefs. Honestly, let's see them try this with Islam. Depict Muhammed as a man without divine inspiration and make the case that he was a political advocate rather than a prophet. Look, I am not a Christian. I don't believe that the Bible is a divine book written by God and handed to man as a literal historical record of the world. You can bash on Christianity all day long; I just think that you're a disingenuous pussy if you don't afford other religions the same treatment. Christians don't want gay people to get married; Muslims want them stoned to death in the street. Which religion should we be railing against more strenuously here?
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June 20, 2012, 8:23 a.m. CST
Jesus did exist historically and there are non Christian documents to prove it. He just wasn't the son of a non existent God.
by borisdoris
Great to hear verhoven may be back but Jesus, Verhoven AND Avary. I may see trouble ahead!
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You go to the church, you kiss the cross You will be saved at any cost You have your own reality Christianity You spend your life just kissing ass A trait that's grown as time has passed You think the world will end today You praise the lord, it's all you say Jesus saves, listen to you pray You think you'll see the pearly gates When death takes you away For all respect you cannot lust In an invisible man you place your trust Indirect dependency Eternal attempt at amnesty He will decide who lives and dies Depopulate satans rise You will be an accessory Irreverence and blasphemy Jesus saves, no need to pray The gates of pearl have turned to gold It seems you've lost your way Jesus saves, no words of praise No promised land to take you to There is no other way
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Actually, it seems to me that the Romans were rather indifferent to Jesus, and it was the Jewish ruling class that felt the most threatened. Pontius Pilate actually tries to talk the Jews out of the crucifixion, but the Jewish leaders insisted on it. But I get that from the Bible. I wasn't aware there were any other sources for the story, except theories and speculation. Be that as it may, nobody needs to ban anything. If your faith is strong, then no need to worry about a movie that presents an alternate interpretation. If you are so scared of this, then confront it head and openly debate it, not bury it. But be prepared for the onslaught from all corners of the religious world to ban it. And with extremism, the filmmakers lives could be at risk, sorry to say. Same with Last Temptation of Christ, which was actually quite a beautiful and moving alternative account of the last few days of Christ's life. But it focused on Christ's humanity, and less on his divinity so people were up in arms.
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June 20, 2012, 8:24 a.m. CST
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. YOU HAVE 20 SECONDS TO COMPLY.
by FlickaPoo
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I completely agree with the fact that you either must believe he was the son of God, or a complete lunatic. I believe the former, but I do agree with the fact that he didn't preach new "morals" but to me polarizing truth, or to others lunacy.
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June 20, 2012, 8:28 a.m. CST
rev_skarekroe - but they WERE gay- not that there is anything wrong with that!
by Michael Lunney
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June 20, 2012, 8:30 a.m. CST
Verhooven already made his Jesus film and it was called Robocop.
by Stalkeye
On the 3 Disc DVD Box set;He refered to Murphy/Robo as the "American jesus" during that scene in which he approached Boddicker and said "I'm not arresting you anymore'. One of the best lines from the Movie.
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Liar, lunatic or Lord. It's a bit of a cliche in Christian circles, but it is true. I'm one of those vile Evangelical Christians who actually believes that Christ is the Son of God, so I've made my stand. But ultimately, I put that up there because of the truth in Verhoeven's "research." If you take away all of Jesus' divinity but leave all his words and other actions, then you've got a borderline bi-polar schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur and a messiah complex. In other words, a person who doesn't deserve to get as much credit as he's been given.
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Is it just me, or does this just seem like Hollywood taking another easy pot shot at Christians. Oh, real gutsy guys...I'm waiting for the day some movie executive greenlights a film that dares "insult" Islam. Oh, that's right, Christians are easy targets and don't generally issue fatwas or lay down death sentences for insults to their prophet.
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God banishes Jesus to Earth, primitive man views science as magic
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June 20, 2012, 8:45 a.m. CST
Was jesus realy gay in verhovens book..holy fuck thats awefull
by TheAwareness
has anyone here read it?
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June 20, 2012, 8:47 a.m. CST
raped by a roman solder..eh so i take it verhoven belives jesus was white?......and gay.........
by TheAwareness
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the J is pronounced like an H, will star Cheech Marion, jesus had a low rider
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June 20, 2012, 8:52 a.m. CST
Is this the infamous FRANKENCHRIST SCRIPT we have been reading about so much lastely, you know the one the diving horror Is this the infamous FRANKENCHRIST script we have been reading about so much lately, you know the one, the heavenly horror story with
by Michael Lunney
FRANKENCHRIST!!!!!!! YOU DRANK HIS BLOOD!!!!! YOU ATE HIS FLESH!!!!!! NOW---- IT'S HIS TURN!!!!! HE'S BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!!! AND LUSTING FOR YOUR SOUL!!!!!! COMING SOON TO A THEATER OR DRIVE-IN --- NEAREST TO YOU!!!!!!! NO ONE ADMITTED AFTER THE FIRST 20 MINUTES!!!!! FREE CRUCIFIXES AND VIALS OF HOLY WATER TO ALL TICKETHOLDERS!!!!! DO NOT BE A SINNER!!!! BE THE FIRST TO SEE----FRANKENCHRIST!!!!!
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I would agree with you if it seemed to present Jesus in a bad light. From what I'm seeing, he's just making a movie that's "his take" of who Jesus was and why the ripple effect is still felt today. I inherently disagree with his premise, but I don't see it as a slight against anyone of faith. Having said that...I agree with those who think that the bigwigs in the Christian ghetto will be reactionary and want it boycotted with no dialogue whatsoever.
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When are they going to make a movie showing Mary artificially inseminated by space aliens? And when the hybrid half-human, half-alien Jesus is "resurrected" after his crucifixion, is "beamed" aboard the returning alien's ship and returned to his people's home planet ? Actually, the best Jesus movie I've seen so far is 2007's "The Man From Earth".
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June 20, 2012, 8:59 a.m. CST
oh..and jesus was real......he has decendants living to this day in sececy..some of you would know this if your reserch was worth a dam
by TheAwareness
the cathloc church began as a satanic secret society devoted to the eradication of his bloodline..
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June 20, 2012, 8:59 a.m. CST
YES! FINALLY a Jeebus movie worth seeing! I SO wish it was being written by Joel Ezsterhas, though.
by NeonFrisbee
Maybe it could be awkwardly pitched as a prequel (ala ProMEHtheus) to one of the greatest, most understood, satirical films of all time -- SHOWGIRLS.
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June 20, 2012, 9 a.m. CST
That is to say, "greatest, most *misunderstood,* satirical films of all time -- SHOWGIRLS."
by NeonFrisbee
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Sorry brah, but the Jesus story doesn't belong exclusively to a cult of religious worshippers, whose views widely vary amongst their own ranks depending on whichever sect suits their sensibilities or by chance geographical location. Real or manufactured, it's an intriguing chapter of human history with genuine historic impact, and as such, is worthy examination from different perspectives. Perspectives such as Lee Demarbre's 2001 film Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter.
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June 20, 2012, 9:04 a.m. CST
rev_skarekroe, you should totally do that! Make a HUGE fuss about it! Build it up in people's minds as the MOST TRANSGRESSIVE THING EVAR! Thereby ensuring it makes WAY more money than it normally would because EVERYONE will want to see it.
by NeonFrisbee
You are dumb.
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June 20, 2012, 9:06 a.m. CST
Opening scene takes place on PLANET ZEUS, and features Jesus, Idris Elba + his accordion, and Brian Cox singing "Love the One You're With"
by obijuanmartinez
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June 20, 2012, 9:07 a.m. CST
I really hope Verhoevan makes Jesus a 7 foot tall jacked white guy
by Rob
PROMETHEUS!!!
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Another plank of wood amongst many floating down the mediocrity stream..who thinks he's smarter than what he is..the establishment loves you types because your the easiest to fool.because you believe you already know it all.. sorry for being so harsh
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Since they never got to do Crusade together after Cutthroat Island sank Carolco back in the mid-90's.
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June 20, 2012, 9:13 a.m. CST
i interpret you post as...since we all know jesus isnt real,than why should it matter how his story is told
by TheAwareness
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June 20, 2012, 9:15 a.m. CST
Hey, I just realized that Verhoeven already made a Jeebus movie -- ROBOCOP. He said it himself, "Robocop is the American Jesus."
by NeonFrisbee
Dies, is resurrected, kills a bunch of people, walks on water at the end. (The "kills a bunch of people" would be the American part of the American Jeebus, I guess.)
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June 20, 2012, 9:16 a.m. CST
etienne72772 - yes indeed- Last Temtation was a remarkably moving film- I am not a Christian, but I was moved to tears by Scorcese's film and when I left the theater....
by Michael Lunney
The audience was greeted outside the theater by a gathering of sign holding protestors, trying to tell us that what we just saw was something we should not have seen because it was a bad film denigrating Christ. I spoke to memebers of this group for about half an hour---at one point one tough looking guy made a move at me like he wanted to punch me, how Christian of him, but someone else held him back. NONE OF THEM HAD SEEN THE FILM -- BUT THEY ALL KNEW IT WAS A BAD FILM!!!!!! Very interesting way of programmed thinking- or not thinking, that is. I asked a simple question of all of them who I spoke to who had not seen the film: Would you see the movie if I paid for the ticket? Guess what-- only one of them said yes.... I understand the value of faith and religion, the part that concerns itself with helping the sick and needy in times of trouble- but there are too many vocal Christians who make their faith seem so controlling, so close minded and therefore so unappealing- while demonstrating actions that are diametrically opposed to those beliefs. I yean for a world where religion is not necessary - for a world where the Golden Rule is practiced by all- and that would be enough for global peace and harmony. BUT- we have what we have. So organized religions and their dogma will always be with us- because, it seems, people would rather fight than switch. Thank you for attending today's sermon, bretheren. May your souls shine with the brightness of of all the suns in the universe!!!!! Be well, and remember to click and drive... or Frankenchrist will getcha!!!!
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June 20, 2012, 9:22 a.m. CST
Didn't Martin Scorsese already give us a 'miracleless" Jesus.
by cookylamoo
In "Last Temptation" I remember something like "Those Jugs are filled with water" "No, if you look, they're filled with wine" "Wow Jesus" That's a miracle!
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June 20, 2012, 9:23 a.m. CST
RE:zombie_fatigue ,Yes..but i happen 2 belive that theres more to the world that what you can taste, touch, smell, see, and hear..
by TheAwareness
so taking away the spiritual elements just makes the story dishonest from the gate.. also.. raped by roman solder gay.hippie jesus.. this mise well be a period telling/re-imagining of the David coresh story
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June 20, 2012, 9:29 a.m. CST
BTW- shouldn't dogma be speled godma???? religion can be so confusing sometimes....
by Michael Lunney
I sincerely hope that the people who visit this thread have a sense of humor and aren't looking to just insult and fight, because that was not my intent... I apologize in advance to anyone who may not see the humor- everyone reacts differently. And so it was written. There has to be some reason why so many people want to see the sold out show BOOK OF MORMON- because it has a sense of humor....
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June 20, 2012, 9:32 a.m. CST
It's not amazing how quickly the haters and atheists come out of the woodwork...
by Jeditemple
...to attack the faith of other people, while trying to shove their agendas and hatred down their throat. You people choke on your own bile trying to get the words out about how you don't believe and how "Christians are stupid." So predictable. So very pathetic.
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Dude, what's wrong with you? Chill! A righteous little christian faithboy isn't afraid of a movie, is he?
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June 20, 2012, 9:35 a.m. CST
theawareness, if you reread my comment and party_animal's orginal post, neither challanges any spiritual nature of Jesus.
by P
We were just saying that it is interesting to examine it from a historical perspective. Just don't poke me in the eye with your picket sign while I'm standing in line to buy my ticket ;) And I will buy you ALL lunch the day a Verhoeven film wins best picture.
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Wookie: That's kinda the point. We suck and we need help sucking less. Neon: I generally agree, kinda. But to say Jesus' only talked about peace and love is inaccurate. God is the God of grace AND truth. The problem with many people who claim to be Christians is that they're willing to err on the side of truth because then it's something they can control.
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Verhoeven was one of a few non-scholars that was part of a group of fringe scholars called the Jesus Seminar some 20 years ago. Their work, while sensationalistic and non-representative of the larger field, occasioned a greater reflection in the study of Jesus in both Second Temple Judaism and its Graeco-Roman context. But Verhoevan wrote while riding on the coattails of the lunatic fringe of New Testament scholarship. It is a synthesis that better reflects a highly selective use of secondary literature rather than demonstrating a clear grasp of the New Testament context or any sense of original thought. If he wanted to introduce this particular view of the life of Jesus to wider readership, more capable scholars have already done it more effectively and with better writing. This is one of the coolest areas that you can study. I read through a lot of Verhoevan's book with some interest given who he is but this emperor has no clothes on. Whatever he throws on the screen might be interesting and maybe compelling. The political context of Jesus' trial and execution within the wider world of Roman occupied Palestine is an interesting story. But a fringe director has siding with fringe scholarship won't do any favors in balancing worldviews
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June 20, 2012, 9:39 a.m. CST
I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the story for Last Temptation of Christ when I watched it.
by Fawst
Not one thing. I knew it was directed by Marty and that Dafoe played Jesus. I was surprised when I saw Keitel pop up on the screen. The point is this: when Jesus comes back from the desert brandishing an axe, looking like he was ready to rage, I thought for fucking SURE that I was about to get "Jesus Christ - Murdering Jews With An Axe - The Movie." I remember saying out loud "I can see why people protested this movie!" In the end, I thought it was a beautiful, sad film. It was an interesting story, but nothing has ever convinced me that Jesus was able to make miracles happen, and this film (whether or not it was supposed to is besides the point) did nothing to change that. In the end, I think that if there was a God, it would make itself known in a way that was pretty much irrefutable - none of this fucking around, playing coy with us and expecting us to have "faith." After all, if it created us, it would know that we -- fuck it, I'm getting way too deep for this early in the morning. Bottom line: bring on the new Verhoeven film!
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A halfway serious historical film about the 1st Century of the Common Era without the paranormal trappings, trying to explain the events around the origin of one of the most influential monotheistic religions? DOOM would be there. Bring on the Romans versus the local tribes versus the Jews versus the radical Jews (Jesus may have been a rabbi with ideas that didn't go down well with the local religious authorities). That would be greatly entertaining. However, there are *no* serious historical documents from this period upon which to base Verhoeven's thesis. There are very few documents from the period to begin with. It would be mere conjecture, hopefully entertaining conjecture and several steps up from THE DA VINCI CODE morass, but no more than that. Verhoeven may think he's found proof for his beliefs but no professional historian or theologian places any value on whatever he's quoting. Otherwise someone would have already written a doctoral thesis on it. Believe DOOM!
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June 20, 2012, 9:43 a.m. CST
RE:I yean for a world where religion is not necessary - for a world where the Golden Rule is practiced by all- and that would be enough for global peace and harmony.
by TheAwareness
i agree totally with this...but why lie on a guys story i don't mind reinterpretation of things for the sake of art..im a artist myself and done it plenty of times(M.L.K. KLAN KILLER.will be out shortly..yeah right.i can do better than that)my main beef is when layse knuckle dragging hipster blowhards with no gift of intuition, try to tell me with all there so-called know how,that he couldn't have even possibly existed.when they have no proof of there own that confirms that he didnt. just parroting the foolish misgiving of others???as a means of voicing there disdain toward people who believe. cant we agree to disagree at least?!?.Hell Their not even smart enough to maturity deduce and understand how and why there very governments and institutions of organized religion and education ruthlessly deceive them on a daily basis all in all, cut the shit ...please.
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Sounds like an interesting flick.... if it pisses no one off it will be worthless.
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A movie about Jesus is not about entertaining in any traditional sense. Like the films about Gandhi or Malcolm X, they desire to communicate the person by compelling you through their life story. Scorcese's movie, Kazantsakis's book, is really more about the auteur than Jesus himself. Verhoeven's book is like that in a more subtle way. Albert Schweitzer had noted that there were as many Jesus's as there are scholars who study them. Objectivity among the Jesus Seminar folks is illusory as they share a set of biases that, while running counter to any confessional line that they mean to liberate themselves from, still skew them from the objectivity that far cooler minds in the field possess.
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June 20, 2012, 9:52 a.m. CST
I only counted one Verhoeven/Avary Jesus joke. Stop the fighting and start the laughing.
by Tikidonkeypunch
Peter: I had to kill Judas because he made a mistake. Jesus: I'm the foot fucking master. (washes feet) (saves mary magdalene from stoning) Mary: Oh god, thank you. Jesus: You have just suffered a traumatic experience. I will notify the nearest rape trauma center.
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...his association with Pulp Fiction? He's a talentless hack.
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June 20, 2012, 9:53 a.m. CST
"instead of a divine birth, Jesus was the product of a rape by a Roman soldier"
by buggerbugger
So it's a movie about a magician without any magic tricks in it? Does he at least show off his carpentry skills?
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June 20, 2012, 9:55 a.m. CST
All Verhoeven has to do is add in the gore factor of Robocop with the sex appeal of Showgirls, and we'll get the most kickass New Testament film of all time.
by Christian Sylvain
You know you want it.
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June 20, 2012, 10:03 a.m. CST
LAST TEMPTATION did have a Christ who performed miracles
by FlyingToupee
C'mon, he heals the blind man, he raises Lazarus from the dead, cures the guy who got his ear cut off in Gethsemani, etc. It might have been an unconventional portrait because it was an interpretation of Kazantakis's tormented Jesus, but He was still supposed to be the Son of God.
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Ahhh...I can hear it now.
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Resurrection, Judas, Outcast.. It's all in there!
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proof? you want proof? I have no proof that you are not Jesus typing on the AICN talkback. But I do have faith that you are not.
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June 20, 2012, 10:21 a.m. CST
politics and religion - the most intoxicating brew to mankind- and the most divisive - nuff said, except for-- If Jesus were alive today, he would be very old!!!!!
by Michael Lunney
I believe in a higher order, and that higher order compelled/programmed genetically mankind to believe in fairy tale gods, so their true indentity would not even be pondered... I have faith in that... I have one wish before I disccorporate- that this higher order make itself known to us, before it is too late- even though it might already be...
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June 20, 2012, 10:29 a.m. CST
RE: party_animal_iv.. Glad you loved my post..so much so that you couldnt conjure a adaqute response..
by TheAwareness
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June 20, 2012, 10:32 a.m. CST
Re:mcgootoo. you hit the nail right on the head my friend..
by TheAwareness
i only hope there not all there is for us..because i think the hate out guts..or at the very least think were a tasty snack
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June 20, 2012, 10:34 a.m. CST
Yet i firmly beleve that good/god exist..we just fuck up when we want it to be a person and not a "consciousness"the savior complex will be the death of us all..
by TheAwareness
consciousness
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June 20, 2012, 10:35 a.m. CST
So, this movie is going to make Life of Brian look like a model of historical accuracy?
by DoctorTom
though I'd be impressed if Verhoeven can work space aliens into his Jesus movie. Or maybe he can bring Ridley Scott on board as coproducer and bill it as a prequel to Prometheus.
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Wow -- I am always impressed when Hollywood takes a run at some aspect of Christianity. I mean, that takes enormous courage, because,as we know, you run all sorts of economic, political, and physical risks when you mock Christianity these days. Yessir, that is really speaking truth to power. It is breathtaking, really. Sooo impressive. Folks who think Christianity is a bunch of bunk sure invest a lot of time and energy railing against it - while largely ignoring certain other faiths. For some reason. Hmmm. BTW, if you really think all religions are hokum, at least have the courage to admit that Right and Wrong are then absolutely meaningless matters of opinion, of no more significance than your favorite color, and that we should all do whatever we please, so long as it maximizes our benefit/pleasure. At least THAT would show some backbone.
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June 20, 2012, 10:43 a.m. CST
theawareness - honestly - it is difficult to understand what you were really trying to say to give any kind of adequate response
by Michael Lunney
wanna try again, other than, you believe Jesus existed, which, of course he did? Try to at least gather your thoughts coherently, and try to spell check ast least, so we can understand what you want to say-. Just trying to help....
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June 20, 2012, 10:45 a.m. CST
shadowprime - all religions are bunk- feel better now?
by Michael Lunney
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Hey man..I got five disciples to feed!
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daaaammmnn negro! you just turned this into a prometheus thread! a non-religiously crazed jesus film is what we've needed badly since mel's passion.
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June 20, 2012, 11:01 a.m. CST
As a Christ loving geek, I implore you all to love one another...
by adeceasedfan
Besides flickapoo has already won this tb, hands down. The rest is just noise and bickering.
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June 20, 2012, 11:02 a.m. CST
shadowprime - how so? do you have a point to make, beyond sarcasm and strawman arguments about right and wrong?
by Michael Lunney
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June 20, 2012, 11:02 a.m. CST
shadowprime - how so? do you have a point to make, beyond sarcasm and strawman arguments about right and wrong?
by Michael Lunney
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Random so and so: "Are you a hooker?" Mary Magdalene: "I'M A DANCER!" then she beats the shit out of the random so and so driving her seven inch stilleto heels into the vicitms eye. She then breaks into an epic electro-metal version of "I Don't Know How To Love Him" and does a pole dance on the cross.
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She kind of is the Christ figure of SHOWGIRLS. I mean, she's selfish and ambitious and filled with rage and, like, pretty much almost kills two people, so she's not like Jesus at all, but she's the GODDESS and BEWARE ANY WHO INVOKE HER RAGE!
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June 20, 2012, 11:06 a.m. CST
Actually, I guess the raped seamstress is more the Christ figure. Or maybe it's Gina Gershon? She does fly into the air on the wings of angels at one point.
by NeonFrisbee
This whole SHOWGIRLS + JESUS duology is really starting to shape up into something awesomer than I could have possibly imagined.
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June 20, 2012, 11:07 a.m. CST
adeceasedfan - so for you, a discussion about Jesus is about winning or losing- how sad
by Michael Lunney
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June 20, 2012, 11:10 a.m. CST
You know there's no way this movie will ever live up to my wishes, hopes, and exploitative expectations, but the histrionic (and convenient) moral outrage over it is going to be FREAKING HILARIOUS!
by NeonFrisbee
I can't wait!
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No strawmen here. Just wish that those who think all religions are bunk would own up to the logical endpoint, for better or worse, or neither. In a universe with no God, or gods, or The Force, or whatever, in a wholly natural, scientific, physical universe, then Right and Wrong don't exist and shouldn't be brought up at all. You should do anything you want, any time you want, limited only by what you enjoy and what you can get away with or are willing to 'pay for' in practical consequences. I just encounter few atheists with the guts to embrace the consequences of their own viewpoint. No offense intended.
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to do right by others. Some of us realize that treating others well is a good way to preserve civillization and to make a meaningful fullfilling experience out of our limited time here on Earth. For those who are too base to comprehend this however, and who need the promise of "ice cream" or a "spanking" held over their heads to behave-- I am glad that religion exists.
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You mean the only reason we aren't butchering randomly in the streets for thrills is due to some fear of punishment from a vengeful deity? Silly me, I apparently was deluded into thinking there might be other reasons for acting civil.
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But of course you knew that already.
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June 20, 2012, 11:35 a.m. CST
mcgootoo. Winning a talkback is a figure of speech and flickapoo's post was to me apropos and hilarious. Win.
by adeceasedfan
If you can find honest discussion on Christ or whatever within the confines of this tb, that's great. However for me it is overwhelmingly dominated by the spinning of wheels or flat out hate speech. So I'll enjoy it for a few laughs and bounce. Peace.
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I have just seen Black Book and I liked it very much. He's one of my favorite directors.
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is that it fuels ignorance. Certainly film fiction should have no artistic boundaries, but Verhoeven's script-- (as well as the theories of Dan Brown and his ilk), are every bit as fictional as the gospels, or perhaps even more so. Historically, all we really know is that Jesus existed, thanks largely in part to Josephus and to Paul's letters which make clear reference to Jesus' brother James (Paul's writings are actually older than any of the gospels by a few decades, and he wrote to entire congregations who clearly new some of Jesus's family members). These peripheral theories about him being born of a Roman centurion, or having children with Mary Magdelene all emerged in the dark ages or later, and it annoys me to no end how armchair conspiracy theorists go around repeating this crap as if they have the "real story".
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June 20, 2012, 11:48 a.m. CST
Bet they won't make one with Mohammed being a homosexual will they.
by ShakaLaka Lambo
The violent religious extremists being referred to are not (usually) Christians. They're Muslims. Now that just facts. I say usually because there are nutjobs everywhere. But you can bet your bollocks to a barndance they won't make a movie about "the Prophet" being gay. Why? Because they know what would happen. But they have no problem offending millions of people around the world by making a movie where Mary is raped by a Roman Soldier and Jesus is Gay? Cmon this is just offensive for the sake of being offensive. I don't care if you believe in Christ or not, alot of people believe alot of things I don't for example " Obama is great, the Yankees are the best baseball team, the moon is made of cheese, the new spider-man movie will suck etc etc but I don't go around TRYING to offend them, I respect they're opinions and hope they will respect mine. This is nonsense, personally I know what I believe and I think it's a shame that Paul as this little respect for another person's belief. He could make this film without the Rape, Without the Homosexuality and still focus on Jesus being a radical threat to the Roman Empire. Why won't he is the question. Because if he offends people he thinks more plebes will pay to see this garbage. It's the same with "shock rock" like Marilyn Manson, slipknot, and countless other hacks that have no talent.
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June 20, 2012, 11:54 a.m. CST
I wonder if he'll show a Jesus in his 20's learning about Budhism from eastern merchants on their way to Rome.
by RobRed1
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There won't be any histrionics. A lot of my fellow Christians will just ignore the movie. Me? I'll see it because it sounds like Verhoeven is asking serious questions. Still...I wonder when Hollywood will grow the sack to ask questions about Mohammed. The Prophet was a VERY interesting man.
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Jesus didn't RAIL against the Roman Empire, in fact when asked about paying taxes to the Roman Empire, Jesus replied "give to Caesar that which is Caesar's". He was much more threatening to the Jewish Religious establishment at the time. Like I said before..garbage.
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Saying the Universe happened by accident is like finding a dictionary and assuming it was created by an explosion in a printing press.
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Other reasons? Such as? I guarantee those reasons aren't grounded in science, thats for certain. You can refrain from whatever you choose , but you can't pretend to have any scientific, nonreligious basis for refraining. There aren't any. Just saying. And you sure can't criticize anyone else's choices in any meaningful way. Slaughter or don't slaughter, the scientific Universe is absolutely unaware and indifferent.
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Well said, sir. Buddhism predates--and is clearly a partial inspiration for, much of the New Testament's content. Attributing the introduction of things like the "Golden Rule" to christianity is a testament to the shameful ignorance most of us westerners have toward eastern philosopy. Confucious introduced this idea before the Hebrew bible was ever even written, let alone the new testament.
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It also applies to the internet. People would never behave with such rudeness to each other for fear of a beatdown. Seriously, do you remember movie conversations before the internet? People disagreed in a more civil manner. With the distance of the internet, our baser instincts let go and people suggest that somebody should "eat a shotgun" or "die in a fire." When the guy's at striking distance...we agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't care what motivates a Christian to behave...as long as he behaves.
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Fassbender as Jesus please.
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I'll watch that guy in anything.
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June 20, 2012, 12:18 p.m. CST
To any Christian who starts getting angry about this movie...
by Blue_Demon
Relax. God can take a punch. It will take much more than a movie to shake faiths. Hell...sometimes real adversity strengthens it so ninety minutes in a theater won't do a thing. I don't believe Verhoeven is showing disrespect...and even if he was, so what?
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If you choose to be a retarded, closed minded child whose irrational fundamentalism and pathetic homophobia gets the best of him, please stay out of the forums. No one wants to listen to you cry out for supporters that share your clearly deluded world view. If you believe Jesus was Christ (or straight, for that matter), that's your prerogative, but do not think for one second that you hold the absolute truth...because you don't. Accept others in the same way we rational human beings tolerate you crazy people, even after murdering thousands of people in the name of Christ and getting children drunk with the blood of your "messiah". Peace out.
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June 20, 2012, 1:15 p.m. CST
Belief in an angry God is the strongest predictor of a country’s crime rate- this is really something to ponder and not just dismiss unless you have a closed mind because of religion
by Michael Lunney
When it comes to predicting a country's crime rate, sociologists typically look at such factors as income inequality and GDP. But new research suggests that a better place to look might be inside the religious beliefs of the population — or more accurately, their belief in Hell and the prospect of eternal damnation. Religion is typically seen as a psychological defense against bad behavior, and even a form of social control. But as researchers from the University of Oregon recently learned, these beliefs can also translate to prosocial behaviors. It's often thought that "religious values" are what drives religious people to be good – but it turns out that it's the fear of punishment that's causing them to exhibit virtuous behavior. This conclusion, which was reached by Azim Shariff and Mijke Rhemtulla, was made after a thorough investigation involving over 25 years of data that consisted of 143,197 people in 67 countries. What they discovered was that significantly lower crime rates could be found in societies where many people believed in Hell compared to those where more people believed in Heaven. What they also discovered what that these effects still stood once they accounted for other factors like economic and social well-being. The Heaven/Hell dichotomy within societies proved to be a more accurate way of assessing a country's potential for crime than the usual suspects. And fascinatingly, the difference had to do with the very nature of God's personality. As an example, the researchers discovered that university students with stronger beliefs in God's punitive and angry nature tended to be the least likely to cheat on an academic task. But stronger belief in God's comforting and forgiving nature significantly predicted higher levels of cheating. In terms of explanation, the researchers theorized that it has to do with an individual's take on the supernatural. From the Shariff and Rhemtulla paper: This pattern of results is consistent with theories highlighting the effectiveness of supernatural punishment–specifically–at regulating moral behavior and, as a result, group cooperation. These theories argue that human punishment is a highly effective deterrent to anti-social behavior within groups, but one that faces inevitable limitations of scale. Human monitors cannot see all transgressions, human judgers cannot adjudicate with perfect precision, and human punishers are neither able to apprehend every transgressor, nor escape the potential dangers of retribution. Divine punishment, on the other hand, has emerged as a cultural tool to overcome a number of those limitations. Unlike humans, divine punishers can be omniscient, omnipotent, infallible, and untouchable-and therefore able to effectively deter transgressors who may for whatever reason be undeterred by earthly policing systems. In other words, belief in a forgiving and kind God is typically used by people as a loophole, or excuse for bad behaviors. Belief in an omniscient and angry God, on the other hand, doesn't allow for that.
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June 20, 2012, 1:23 p.m. CST
I beg to differ, blue_demon! Did you see rev_skarecroe's post above? IT ALREADY STARTED!
by NeonFrisbee
I CAN'T WAIT for the nonstop entertainment. Btw, I think Jesus is way cool. Totally dig his message of peace, love, and understanding; his very pronounced activist / revolutionary / leftist political leanings. I don't blame him for the religion that was foisted upon him posthumously. I only blame the assholes who not only completely misunderstood the story, but use it to promote agendas diametrically opposed to the intended message.
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June 20, 2012, 1:28 p.m. CST
shadowprime - I am an atheist and understand the diffence bewtween right and wrong- your logical argument is anything but....you seem desperate to fill some void, and if religion does that and makes you a better person, good - BOTTOM LINE - RESPECT THE E
by Michael Lunney
shadowprime - I am an atheist and understand the difference between right and wrong- your logical argument is anything but....you seem desperate to fill some void, and if religion does that and makes you a better person, good BOTTOM LINE - RESPECT THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING ON IT and ignoring your strawman argument and silly conclusion as anything but a strawman argument shows us you do not think logically, but from a single viewpoint that you force, like a round peg into a square hole some people need religion- but I conjecture, that without it, man would find a better, more logical way to deal with the unpredictability of emotion over intellect that leads to man doing wrong upon their fellow man religion is for people who are filled with fear of the unknown and need a guideline for dealing with their negative traits without succumbing to them
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My mistake, I thought you meant on a bigger scale...like in the media. No, you're right. In the talkbacks, it gets heated. My apologies.
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June 20, 2012, 1:31 p.m. CST
blue demon says - I don't care what motivates a Christian to behave...as long as he behaves. Well then, maybe God should cut people's dicks off.. to behave...that is your logic
by Michael Lunney
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June 20, 2012, 1:56 p.m. CST
blue demon- I do repect that you have an open mind - you seem like an intelligent believer- I did not mean for you to take offense at my crude, indelicate statement
by Michael Lunney
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June 20, 2012, 1:59 p.m. CST
to all believers in God- is this god the god of the universe, or the god of Earth? if he is either- you got some 'splainin' to do
by Michael Lunney
unless of course, you do not believe there is life anywhere else in the universe I want to meet the god of the universe by the way- he would probably be a great conversationalist, but you could never win an argument with him!!!!!!
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...isn't any more proveable than saying God did it in Seven Days. Who the heck knows? I don't and neither do some scribes who wrote the Bible. I do know that the universe is, indeed, expanding and everything is moving away from the other at astounding speeds. That's proven science. Yes folks, the universe is a bubble and it's growing! Is that in the Bible? No, why would God want to burden his children with a freakin' tech manual? "Just say I did it in seven days and be done with it. They'll figure it out anyway...smart lil' monkey's that they are." No, I didn't actually hear God say that but it does sound like something he'd come up with, yes? Even though it sounds like PV's thesis is mildly interesting, I think I'll read the book first to see if his movie's worth watching or is just another shallow attempt at crapper bucket stirring.
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June 20, 2012, 2:04 p.m. CST
As long as it has an Asian guy randomly being BF'd by Jean Hughes Anglade, I'm in.
by Henry Fool
'nuff said.
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Another Jesus movie?
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June 20, 2012, 2:42 p.m. CST
Cheeses of Nazareth - there is a little shop in Nazareth, PA with this name- and guess what? they sell cheese!!!! but not holy water- dammit
by Michael Lunney
this is for real- look it up
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but more like a rebellious shaman or mystic who challenged roman authority and the jewish religious establishment. But I see no actual evidence of his supernatural abilities whatsoever.
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would likely be so all powerful and knowing that he would be almost indifferent to us. Like he would pay as much attention to us as we pay attention to a fruit fly....or less.
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That is all.
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June 20, 2012, 3 p.m. CST
'I can see the jokes coming now, considering who Verhoeven and Avary are...'
by MoistMuskyCamelToe
Oh yes, you can. Because it's fucking preposterous. I'm just going to have a hard time giving a serious, focused viewing to a movie from the director of Robocop and Starship Troopers, because the whole time I'll be waiting for Jesus to rip someone's arm off and beat them over the had to it whilst shouting, "Would You BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR, eh Compadre?!" Oh and please just cast Casper Van Dien already as Big J. That would rule.
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I wonder what the remake of this will be like in 20 years time.
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Having only become a fan of the man in the last decade, I've never had a chance to see any of his films on the big screen. Sure, another big sci-fi action flick would be preferable, but I'll gladly throw down some cash for anything he directs!
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Play it completely straight.
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Verhoeven is much more than the director of Robocop and Starship Troopers. He had quite a distinguished career in The Netherlands before coming to Hollywood. His film Turkish Delight was nominated for an Oscar for best foreign language film and Soldier of Orange won an award (Los Angeles Film Critics) for best foreign language film.
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...so I could totally reduce religion and faith to a need for "ice cream" or a "spanking." It would make things so much easier if that were all at stake here.
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June 20, 2012, 4:11 p.m. CST
covjack- so, what is at stake here? did you read the post entitled - Belief in an angry God is the strongest predictor of a country’s crime rate
by Michael Lunney
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Is that him hanging from the cross in the graphic?
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June 20, 2012, 4:21 p.m. CST
mullah omar- it looks more like naked surfer dude Jesus, played by a young David Carradine
by Michael Lunney
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To pin the death of Jesus on the Romans, when according to nearly every account of his death, including the gnostic gospels and other accounts that are generally considered to be heresy by mainstream Christians, Pontius Pilate had him executed because the Jewish leadership threatened to rebel against him and start a ton of shit if Pilate refused. I get that people are worried about firing up anti-Jewish sentiment, but it seems like a dishonest way to do it.
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The Jesus Hero-God myth is a re-telling of the third century b.c. 'Mithras' myth from Persia. You know, born in a manger, son of a God, healed the sick, raised the dead, etc, etc, etc. And Mithris a re-telling of a fifth century Egyptian God-Hero Horus. Study your history, folks. It's all stories. It's no more literally true than the sun is Apollo flying his golden chariot across the sky. GOT IT?
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Thankyou, Flickapoo.
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June 20, 2012, 5:18 p.m. CST
henrydalton - glad to see you have such an open mind- those who do not think like you are bitches- are you representative of Christianity?
by Michael Lunney
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It's a love affair Mainly jesus and my hot rod
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LOUD ENOUGH TO KNOCK YOU DOWN!!! Burn out... LET'S HIT THE FUCKIN' ROAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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June 20, 2012, 6:17 p.m. CST
I am SO FUCKING THERE! Verhoeven is the genre-Herzog. He can do no wrong, because he can't help getting deep— it's who he is. Count me the fuck in.
by PotSmokinAlien
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I usually only critique Christianity and Catholicism. I figure that is why Hollywood movies and Marilyn Manson do the same. I figure the Jews have had enough hardship already, and I'm not Muslim and knew very little about the religion before 9-11-2001. You talk about what you know. Fear of death would prevent me from bashing Islam but fear of death and torture is what made Christianity so popular, Crusades and the Inquisition anyone? Jesus did not invent the golden rule, and they wouldn't have mad it to Mount Sinai if they didn't already know that killing is wrong. Jesus healed a blind man so that he could see , why not then cure blindness as a whole? People are all mostly good already, so I would assume most Christians are good people. As for the movie it is impossible to make a historically accurate movie about someone who like 2k years ago so why bother pissing people off. I guess Mary was raped by God, or did he ask first? The Vagina is an exit only in too many old myths
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the same way Abe Lincoln was killed by "the Americans" He was a Jewish guy going about his business in a Jewish community. The way it's presented so often is idiotic.
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Jesus Christ Fuck Yeah!!! Fucks all the bitches with 3 titties, Jesus Christ Fuck Yeah!
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Judging by Hollywood yes! Jesus is white, Moses is White, John the Baptist, the disciples of Jesus etc. Apparently GOD only intrusts his message to be carried out by White men. That's why religon is fucking JOKE. I can't believe people actually believe in that fairy tale.
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June 20, 2012, 7:59 p.m. CST
What disturbs me more than anything is the close-mindedness of people on this forum
by IronEagle74
Hey, I agree that religion has proven to be a bad thing in many cases, which is one reason I'm not overtly religious myself. But at the same time it bothers me to see so many self-righteous, all-knowing asshole atheists or people of other faiths on here who try to group all religious people(especially Christians) together with the bad or extreme elements of their faith. It's not intellectually fair at all.
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False. Lazarus was the first zombie.
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June 20, 2012, 8:06 p.m. CST
@mcgootoo, you're accusing others of being "close-minded"? BWAHAHAHAHA
by IronEagle74
Damn, man, you and others of your ilk are the most close-minded people out there and you don't even know it. It also amazes me how you seem to "KNOW" so many things, like that Jesus didn't exist. I'm sure you were also there are the beginning of the universe, so you KNOW how it all happened.
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June 20, 2012, 8:07 p.m. CST
Verhoeven's country is being overrun by Muslims, threatening their freedoms and yet he chooses to "debunk" Christianity?
by Ted Knight
You know Paul what would be really edgy artsy and brave? Doing a movie about Mohamed and Islam. That would be a bit more interesting. Give that a try Paul "Showgirls" Verhoeven. But then again he most likely saw what happened to the last Dutchman who was critical of Islam ...Theo van Gogh.
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...and I've always wanted to see a movie that attempts to portray a historical (i.e. non-magical) Jesus. So I hope this actually happens and doesn't fall apart in the early stages.
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June 20, 2012, 8:57 p.m. CST
P.S. People who deny the existence of Jesus entirely are more or less quacks.
by Vrolokus
There are very, very few credible historians who believe Jesus didn't exist at all. It's very safe to say there was a man who lived in that area around that time, who created a stir and was executed by the Romans - and that his teachings as written in the Bible are probably at least similar to whatever the historical man was teaching. To be so anti-religion that you'd argue not only that he wasn't divine (which I'd completely agree), but go a step farther and say he never existed at all is silly, and overreaching. You could level that "there's no 100% convincing historical evidence!" charge against all sorts of historical figures. Given Jesus' social status and the part of the world he lived in, the lack of piles of contemporary sources isn't surprising at all.
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I'd like to see Verhoeven and Uwe Boll beat the shit out of each other in a boxing ring though.
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Kevin Bacon can be Jesus, Elizabeth Shue can be Mary Magdalene, and Michael Ironside can be an ass-kicking Judas. Plus...titties.
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Go fuck yourself in the ass, baby Jesus.
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June 20, 2012, 9:10 p.m. CST
What I'm really fucking sick of is people who can't separate the truth (lack thereof) in religion from its usefulness/purpose
by Autodidact
My mom and aunt suffer from this... all I care about is whether it's true or not... but they think that because churches do nice things sometimes (when they're not fucking young boys) that I should just go "believe" (even though they don't believe).
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June 20, 2012, 9:12 p.m. CST
The biggest fuck-nuts on the planet are those who argue that god must have created everything
by Autodidact
Where the fuck did god come from then you cunt-shits?
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June 20, 2012, 9:13 p.m. CST
Basically the way I'm feeling lately I wouldn't mind if WWIII kicked off and we all fucking went bye-bye
by Autodidact
This species fucking sucks.
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This needs to be said more often.
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where did God come from? oh touche' . your obviously much more intelligent than all of us "dumb" believers who are seeking to fill a void in our lives...i recommend you go to this address and watch this address.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJmsK2s0uI watch this and then come argue. Bet you won't.
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If you don't know what's wrong with that, right away, on the surface, then you have not matured enough to have a real conversation about faith. You don't prove that things are NOT. You prove things that ARE. It's very simple.
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He'll give you $370 million reasons why.
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June 20, 2012, 10:16 p.m. CST
A Paul Verhoeven movie about Jesus? I'm calling it now: no Dropsuits for the Mobile Infantry!
by victor82
Plus, how the fuck does Jesus get from LV-223 to Palestine, pull off the Virgin Birth, get his ass crucified, AND do so without provoking his Engineer Colleagues into dropping their Xenomorph younglings on the planet in revenge for His Death and Resurrection?
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With more useless memetrash, but FYI: The "Jesus was a bastard son of a Roman soldier" idea is not original with Verhoeven. It dates back at least to the early centuries AD, same period that the actual New Testament was being written (and arranged into what we call the "New Testament", with plenty of stuff discarded for a Director's cut) Doesn't make it any more likely, but it's there. Part of the mythos and the canon, you might say. Not a Christian myself, but I do believe a human Jesus probably existed and was probably an interesting enough character. I look forward to any story that presents the old tale in a somewhat new light. But just remember, folks... the biblical Jesus, no less than Achilles, Thor (original AND Marvel) and Superman, was just another in the long line of fictional superheroes created by humans for their power-fantasy narratives. Nothing changes but the format.
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Yah, Theo Van Gogh was murdered by Muslim assassins for making a film critical of Islam and supporting Ayan Hirsi Ali. Verhoeven is a pussy. He's doing the safe thing; going after Christ while his country is being overrrun by Islam.
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June 20, 2012, 10:43 p.m. CST
Why are idiots on this TB saying Verhoeven should have made a film bashing Islam?
by uberfreak
Fuck Christianity and all those other stupid desert death cults. If we are ever going to destroy religion (and we will... you resurrection junkies are going to die out, thank gawd, hahaha!) we might as start by ridiculing the main religion in western countries. Once people accept these delusions for what they are then maybe some fucking progress can be made with this species.
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Exactly. Lazarus was the first zombie, while Jesus was obviously an early vampire. Werewolves didn't exist in the Holy Land then (too hot and dry!)
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June 20, 2012, 10:59 p.m. CST
When someone is SO SURE that they know what the story is with Jesus, it reaks of agenda. Saying Christ was the product of Roman rape is just being offensive and is also pointless.
by MENTALDOMINANCE
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June 20, 2012, 11:01 p.m. CST
People get caught up in all this stupid debate over what logically "happened" instead of just listening to the words Christ spoke.
by MENTALDOMINANCE
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June 20, 2012, 11:04 p.m. CST
EXACTLY - Anti Christian Hollywood propaganda. They would NEVER do this with Muhummad. They won't even fucking DEPICT a characture of him else so-called Muslims will riot.
by MENTALDOMINANCE
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June 20, 2012, 11:54 p.m. CST
I thought Roger Avary was in prison for accidentally killing someone?
by D.Vader
I guess he needs something to do, yeah?
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There's no way in hell anyone in Hollywood would make a film about Muhammed. Could you imagine the outrage and death threats?
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Now it's time to erase that mistake.
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I am curious to see his interpretations and belief. I dont' understand why people think christians are blind sheep...actually scratch that, I do understand why...the majority of the christians people see are idiots and assholes. The truth is for a real christian, the Bible says God only calls on us to do two things. Honor and glorify his name, and spread his word. All this judgemental bullshit and silly right winged nonsense that people pull about gays being evil etc.. is a bunch of bs. Not all christians are like that so don't believe the idiotic hype...and honestly, there is a slight irony in the wise asses whom talk shit about supposed christian sheep, but then sheepishly presume we are all the same :)
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You know who's dying out? White Europeans. Yes, Christianity is dying with them in many parts of the continent, but the bi-product of that harsh truth is the first to go in the rest of the world will be childless atheists. If Christians die out or are forced into the catacombs once again, 'free-thinkers' like you got no one to help you hide from the onslaught of the soon to be dominant religion with its army of 2.5 billion (and growing) Though I'm pretty certain you and your ilk would convert in a heartbeat. Hey, smart guy, Ever been to a Muslim Country? Where they freak out because you held your wife's hand in public? Worst of all, and this is to all you Christian hating know-nothings: If that ham-fisted Verhoven was doing an offensive film questioning say Hindu beliefs, and the film was about Ram raping Sita would you start laughing and say, "F--- Hindus! I can't wait for them to all die out!" Stick with ranting about Star Trek and Spiderman. As contributors to a discussion about about a religious themed movie, you're obnoxious monkey boys and I can only deduce that as members of a breathing, thinking human society you don't even rate that.
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June 21, 2012, 4:59 a.m. CST
On the one hand, they won't make a movie to offend the muslims.
by David Cloverfield
On the other hand, you guys are building flying death robots to murder them by the dozens. So I think you should be happy, that fate dealt you a hand with a movie that offends your religion and not the Hunter-killer drones from the Terminator. I swear, some people would whine and feel like the victims, even if they wore imperial cloaks, blasting away planets on the Death Star.
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June 21, 2012, 5:51 a.m. CST
"I'd imagine that easily offended people should likely just steer clear"
by BradleyPitt
If I am offended at the idea that Mary was raped by a roman soldier am I someone who is easily offended?
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June 21, 2012, 5:55 a.m. CST
Strictly speaking, every Christian movie insults Islam as much as this movie insults Christianity.
by FluffyUnbound
So please, spare me the 'You won't insult Islam in your movies!' nonsense. Your claim is that this movie insults Christianity because...it asserts that Jesus wasn't divine, and Christianity is therefore false. But every movie that portrays Jesus as divine is asserting that Islam is false. Because Islam doesn't regard Jesus as divine, but only as an inspired prophet. So every last film, from QUO VADIS to the Kirk Cameron DTV garbage out there, that asserts that Christianity is true insults all other religions every bit as much as this movie insults Christianity.
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June 21, 2012, 6 a.m. CST
Actually the claim that Jesus' real father was a Roman centurion...
by FluffyUnbound
...was already around in the 2nd century. Verhoeven didn't pull it out of his ass. It was a pretty standard thing for pagan critics of Christianity to say, during the church's early rise. Pagans rolled their eyes and said, 'Son of a god, huh? That's what I'd say, too, if I had his father,' the same way we roll our eyes at Scientology.
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June 21, 2012, 6:07 a.m. CST
Actually, every person who doesn't attend a mosque insults Islam as much as this movie insults Christianity.
by FluffyUnbound
By not being a Muslim, you are stating (implicitly, but absolutely inescapably and necessarily) that Islam is false. If you thought Islam was true, you'd convert. Since you haven't, you think it's false. QED. If you're determined to be upset because someone is saying out loud 'Jesus was not a god' why aren't you pissed off at, say, the existence of Jews? They're saying Jesus was not a god just by walking around and being Jews. You're surrounded by pervasive continual denials that your religion is true, and you aren't offended by any of them. How does it somehow become really upsetting when it's in a movie?
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June 21, 2012, 6:33 a.m. CST
@fluffyunbound- are children born into christian families offending Islam as well?
by BradleyPitt
Are they infidels before they've had a chance to examine religion for themselves or are they just born infidels?
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What's there to argue, exactly? That Ravi guy posits that universal matter can't come from nowhere, it has to have been created in some way, then goes on to say that the only explanation is that a non-corporeal "something" (aka God) created matter out of nothing and filled the "nothing" with "everything". God can create matter out of nothing? I thought one of the reasons why religious people didn't believe in variants of the Big Bang theory (damn your precious science!) was that matter can't come from nothing. And yet God can do it and that's why they believe in his existence? Well, that answers that question to everyone's satisfaction... I guess: Matter can't come from no-matter, except when God makes it so. To reiterate: A mysterious, possibly-purposeless "Big Bang" explosion can't create matter from no-matter (because that'd be stupid, it makes no sense), but a mysterious, non-corporeal sentience can deliberately summon matter into existence from nowhere (because that just makes sense. So much sense, in fact, that it would be wise of me to base my entire life around this completely infallible and logical supposition, because I'll be eternally punished by this non-corporeal "something" if I don't). Utter. Fucking. Nonsense. Scientists may not hold all the answers, but at least they're asking the questions. You, on the other hand, appear to be content with an "answer" that (a) answers nothing and (b) wouldn't fool a child; an "answer" arrived at 2000 years before you were even born! You're not half the Christian that the Christians of 1000AD were, but probably twice the Christian that the Christians of 3000AD will be. Your God of the Gaps holds dominion over smaller and fewer gaps with the passage of time. Hopefully, one day, he will hold sway over none and Mankind can get on with something a bit more fucking sensible - and a hell of a lot more altruistic - than killing itself over myths, legends and fairy tales.
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June 21, 2012, 6:43 a.m. CST
"Are [babies born into Christian families] infidels before they've had a chance to examine religion for themselves...
by buggerbugger
"...or are they just born infidels?" They have 20 seconds to comply.
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June 21, 2012, 6:47 a.m. CST
They won't do one about Muhammad because extremist muslims are EVEN CRAZIER than extremist christians.
by NeonFrisbee
ALL religious people are nuts, but extremist muslims top the list on the nut scale. As of yet, extremist christians seem content with the usual -- homophobia, racism, facilitating and subsequently covering up child rape, et al -- they haven't graduated to terrorist attacks... Yet.
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The "god in the gaps," indeed! Didja ever read "The God Delusion" by Dawkins (I'm assuming so)? It's really great.
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June 21, 2012, 7:05 a.m. CST
Why does Hollywood go out of its way to offend Christians anyway?
by BoyNamedSue
After reading some of the vile posts on here directed at Christians, I know I won't change anybodys minds......but Christians have money (and influence) and this movie will not make a profit, so why make it other than to offend a religion you happen to dislike?
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And the way I see it God didn't necessarily directly cause the big bang. All that was needed to create this universe was the rule of gravity, Strong force, Weak force, Electro-magnetism and a shitload of energy. I would guess (although no scientist can say for sure...yet) that the energy came from elswhere (another dimension or place within the universe) but the question is when/where/how did the rules get put in place. I would guess that, even if we traveled to other dimensions, it is a question that humankind will never have an answer for...not while we're alive anyway. P.S. Einstein believed in God.
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by the way
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was a widow's son resurected by Elijah in first kings....look it up!
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June 21, 2012, 7:42 a.m. CST
Yeah, I don't think being religious means you're somehow intellectually deficient. Maybe crazy a little bit, but, hey, I believe space is magic too.
by NeonFrisbee
And Jesus seems like a hep cat. Lots of my friends are believers. Most of them are very intelligent. I rant against religion as a mental block, but if it gives you comfort or context to be a better person, or connects you with some idea of a benevolent unknowable infinite, that's cool. Either way, getting angry about stuff like this is stupid. People's anger reveals how little they understand, how little they're willing to. I joke about it being like SHOWGIRLS, but I bet it will be intelligent and thought provoking. Offensive only if you're a cultist.
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June 21, 2012, 7:46 a.m. CST
boynamedsue why do you go out of your way to play the martyr? why do you assume a movie that hasn't even been made will be offensive?
by Michael Lunney
boynamedsue why do you go out of your way to play the martyr? why do you assume a movie that hasn't even been made will be offensive? If man was created in god's image, is god so easity offended by movies he hasn't seen also? Do you think GOD IS A GEEK, and likes genre films?? I do...
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June 21, 2012, 7:49 a.m. CST
Perhaps not babies, because they don't have agency or intent yet.
by FluffyUnbound
But anyone with the agency to choose among many faiths (or to choose no faith) by necessity insults the other faiths, and their practitioners, as soon as they choose one to the exclusion of the others. Or, rather, they insult those other faiths to the same extent this film insults Christianity. Because saying, 'I am angry someone is making this film!' is the same as saying, 'I am angry that someone does not believe Christ was divine!' And everyone who is not a Christian says that with every moment of their existence, by dint of not choosing to be a Christian. The only difference that anyone could point to would be to say, 'Yeah, but these guys are loudly proclaming that they don't think Christ was divine, whereas those other people are just doing their own thing and only implicitly stating that Christ was not divine by their actions,' and that's a really irrational and stupid distinction to worry about.
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June 21, 2012, 7:52 a.m. CST
when the concept of our present day religious gods (all of the different types) goes the way of the acient Greek and Roman gods- it would be a sign that mankind might actually start to get it's shit together- but it would make a pretty damn big accident
by Michael Lunney
when the concept of our present day religious gods (all of the different types) goes the way of the acient Greek and Roman gods- it would be a sign that mankind might actually start to get it's shit together- but it would make a pretty damn big accident at that intersection befrore the stop (god) sign goes up
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June 21, 2012, 8:06 a.m. CST
@fluffyunbound Not everyone thinks of temselves or their religion as being so at odds with others religions or peoples as you do.
by BradleyPitt
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He didn't believe in god. He talked about god not playing dice with the universe... but that was just a way to say that the big bang is not an "accident" in the way the pseudoscientific thinkers like to portray it.
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June 21, 2012, 8:34 a.m. CST
Are you? He didn't believe in god the way you're trying to make it sound like he did
by Autodidact
Why you gotta obfuscate?
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June 21, 2012, 8:42 a.m. CST
@bradleypitt Haha, aha! but he did believe in some form of God?
by BradleyPitt
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...I generally agree with you but I have to disagree a bit in this case. It's the tolerance line, really. If someone, for one example, hates homosexuals (or fill in the blank) but does not trumpet their hate, does not attempt to convince others that as a society we should hate them, does not produce and distribute hate-filled fliers, books, videos or other material, it is both practically less harmful and psychologically less distressing to the objects of that person's hate. The same is true here. There is a difference between rejecting a particular religion and proselytizing against it by making a film that contradicts some of its most precious tenets. Now we live in a society that has long held as one of its ideals the ability of all to express themselves freely. We've done a fairly spotty job of living up to those ideals, but probably about as well as could be expected. That means that although a movie such as this is offensive to those folks they must accept it, though they are certainly free to lobby theaters not to show it, protest its exhibition, fund documentaries showing that Verhoeven only made Showgirls so he could sleep with Gina Gershon and all that their expressions of free speech allow. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a qualitative difference between me rejecting the teachings of the being you believe to be your divine savior and me making a movie that portrays him as the son of a thousand Roman Maniacs. For instance, if you think I'm a bastard for disagreeing with you it wouldn't bother me too much. But if you created a web-site calling me a bastard, papered my nieghborhood with signs explaining that I'm a bastard, called everyone in my city telling them I was a bastard... ...okay, that would rock and it would probably make me pretty happy... ...but you get my point.
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June 21, 2012, 9:07 a.m. CST
I'm bradleypitt, you're Autodidact... try to keep these things straight! No he didn't really believe in any "form" of god
by Autodidact
He felt a "sense of religious wonder" when his mind boggled at the universe, and in that sense felt he understood how people feel about god.
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June 21, 2012, 9:11 a.m. CST
I'm not offended by the idea that Mary was raped by a roman soldier
by D.Vader
Why would I be? Jesus Christ, people, it's only a movie!
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June 21, 2012, 9:23 a.m. CST
@autodidact Einstien could not have been said to have been an atheist and was therefore a theist.
by BradleyPitt
I don't want to make this a big thing Because there have been books arguing one way or the other. But the commonly held perception is that Einstein was certainly not an atheist-a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. And so that leaves only one other option-theist-a person who believes in a supreme being or beings.
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I personally put my faith in Santa.
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Theism is always a hot topic. I'm all for open discourse. Probably, the most civil exchange that I've read is below... it's a long thought provoking exchange between a Christian (Catholic) and an Atheist... so if you have ADHD... it may require multiple sittings. Dave Armstrong is quite articulate. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/09/dialogue-with-atheist-on-problem-of.html http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/atheists-boundless-faith-in-deo.html http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/on-whether-atheism-is-inherently-more.html http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/dialogue-with-atheists-on-evolution-of.html
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June 21, 2012, 9:52 a.m. CST
@autodidact Well Einstein put his faith in there maybe being a greater being.
by BradleyPitt
He saw evidence for it and he was smart enough to know that he certainly couldn't rule it out.
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We can't say for sure he was an atheist, so therefor he must be a theist. Chalk up one more for the Christians! The most you can say is he didn't rule it out, but that's not saying anything at all. But he didn't put his "faith" in a greater being or share a belief in anything like a god or a higher power. He described himself as an agnostic, and stayed away from the term atheist only out of humility and a sense that he had that atheism was not only a lack of belief in god but zealously anti-religion, a political stance which he didn't care much about.
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I tried to be nice.
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June 21, 2012, 10:07 a.m. CST
Christianity has thrived and prospered for over 2,000 years, does anyone really think a single possibly offensive movie is going to do anything?
by kidicarus
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June 21, 2012, 10:08 a.m. CST
And yes, I'm an atheist turned Christian and atheists have to be the most cocksure, hateful idiots out there
by kidicarus
Not all of them of course, but all with religion, the most vocal tend to be the most grating.
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June 21, 2012, 10:14 a.m. CST
@bass ackwards Actually we can say pretty definitively that he was not an atheist by the definition of atheism.
by BradleyPitt
shall we break out the einstein quotes?
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June 21, 2012, 10:28 a.m. CST
@kidicarus People are cocksure,hateful idiots. Religious or Atheist people are gonna find a way to be pieces of shit (to one another).
by BradleyPitt
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June 21, 2012, 10:41 a.m. CST
Actually, Verhoeven's going to work in conjunction with David Yates - this IS the Doctor Who movie Yates wanted to make
by DoctorTom
Yates did say he wanted to do a Doctor Who movie, we just didn't know at the time that Jesus was a Time Lord.
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June 21, 2012, 10:41 a.m. CST
I've known some unsavory Christians, and some that amaze me with their love and generosity for their fellow man
by kidicarus
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June 21, 2012, 10:46 a.m. CST
BradleyPitt, unless you're some kind of fusionist like a Unitarian...
by FluffyUnbound
...choosing one option means rejecting the others. Sorry. They are mutually exclusive. Red Ned - what I'm saying is that's not rational. It's a real primate brain kind of thing. If you are OK with people disagreeing with you as long as they don't SAY it, the real reason you're offended is because someone has dared to offer you a primate dominance challenge by openly talking about their disagreement. 'If you think I'm a dick that's cool, but if you SAY I'm a dick that's dissing me in front of my bitches so I gots to cut you.'
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June 21, 2012, 10:49 a.m. CST
I know some Christians who can amaze me with their love and generosity and then turn around and say something anti-semetic or anti-gay (Like Jesus gaybashing Christ)
by BradleyPitt
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June 21, 2012, 10:52 a.m. CST
@fluffyunbound You seem so violent? What on earth gave you the idea that it's OK to be so violent?
by BradleyPitt
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June 21, 2012, 10:54 a.m. CST
I am an atheist - people practicing their faith privately great- it's when they want to change the fabric of society because of those beliefs politically, telling people how to act by law, based on those beliefs, nuh uh- not good
by Michael Lunney
Churches help the needy- that is a great thing!
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June 21, 2012, 10:56 a.m. CST
geez, this talkback has degenerated into Einstein's beliefs
by Michael Lunney
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God, I'm so sick of Christians whining about how terrible they get treated by hollywood. In 100+ years of film making, how many truly sacrilegious films can you name? There's at least 10 times that many that try, not very subtly, to cram the Jesus down all of our throats. There's a whole industry cranking out crappy "Left Behind", Veggie-Tales and other Jesusy flicks for true believers. And hollywood doesn't make movies about Islam because NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT MOHAMMED AND NOBODY CARES. Sorry if that pisses off the 2% of Americans who are Muslim. People make controversial movies to make a statement, and because they sell tickets, and you just wouldn't be able to drum up enough controversy to make it worthwhile with something that offends 2% of Americans. And how does Hollywood not attack Islam enough anyway? They may not be making movies specifically about Mohammed, but Muslims are the villains in 75% of action films- at least you whiny Christians don't have to put up with EVIL Christian zealots blowing up busses in 3/4 of all big-budget action movies. Sorry to burst your eternal-victim bubbles, bible-beaters. It's still a mostly-free country, and Hollywood has a lot of people in it that have been treated like shit by bible-thumping assholes.
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June 21, 2012, 11:13 a.m. CST
yomomma- Hollywood pokes fun at lots of stereotypes, including stereotypical, vocal Christians who want to aair their beliefs publicalyy, instead of keeping it between their god and themselves
by Michael Lunney
In other words, don't make yourselfs vocal target, and you won't be one.
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June 21, 2012, 11:23 a.m. CST
beleivers and non-beleivers should not be enemies-just keep your faith to yourself - atheists, Christians, no one os better than the other for what they choose to believe or not believe- to each their own
by Michael Lunney
emotions get in the way- that is the human wild card- otherwise we could all just practice the golden rule without hesitation-- all the time---- GOD help us all, if you are really there- if not- oh well the cockroaches will take over anyway
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Pathetic!!! You cant change the gospels!. But obviously the world we live in today can! This is a sign of how corrupt this world is and how nothing stays sacrid. Next they are going to make a movie about how peter and judas were gay and planned to betray jesus together!. Think ill pass.
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June 21, 2012, 1:21 p.m. CST
kal-el84 - the gospels were changed when they were translated to English - nothing more corupt than that
by Michael Lunney
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June 21, 2012, 2:46 p.m. CST
Love it when supposedly enlightened people tell Christians to shut the hell up and keep it to themselves
by eveelcapitalist
Free speech for me but not for thee, I guess. Unbeliever here, cause I guess we got to drop our credentials. But anyway... Jesus the product of rape? Ugh. Yeah, Verhoeven really "researched" that. Means he read one or two crank conspiracy books, got fucked up on goofballs and thought, "Hey, this would make a great movie!" Hey, go for it, but don't pretend that this is any way a serious intellectual film. That sounds like it's pure shock value. Gotta get the plebes riled up somehow! I'm all down with an exploration of Jesus' political impact during his life but I'm of the understanding that it was tiny. Jesus wasn't the first Jewish messiah and wasn't the last either. Lots of fellows came and went all claiming to be King of the Jews and they all got butchered by the Romans. One asshole was very nearly successful in throwing them out but then they came back, murdered the shit out of him and burned the Temple. The J-Man had some loyal followers who could spread his...excuse me, HIS...beliefs effectively and far and wide. But that took a long long looooong time to do. Jesus, when he was alive, was barely a blip on anyone's radar. But, whatever.
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Simply read my post, I already made my point, if you want to argue that he is not an atheist, go right ahead, it does nothing to detract from what I said above.
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You know, the fucktards who turn simple nonbelief into a fucking dogmatic system with its own bullshit rules (what kind of fucking world do we live in where the most holier-than-thou people are the ones who profess no faith?).* A lot of you assholes are prone to arguing that Jesus didn't exist. You just flat out say Jesus didn't exist. Evidence to the contrary, this is an article of faith among so many of you. So tell me, since Jesus didn't exist, who made him up? This should be easy, who made him up? And I don't want some broad answer like "the Greeks". Name some fucking names. It's fucking mind blowing that so many of you will blindly assert one thing while asking people to believe, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that Jesus is the creation of some faceless conspiracy whose sole intent was some kind of mind control (for fun and profit, I guess). And then you call yourselves "rationalists". Bunch of fucking retards is more like it. *If I wanted dogma I'd join a religion. Since I don't wish to be lumped in with these idjits I just call myself a nonbeliever.
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June 21, 2012, 3:18 p.m. CST
eveelcapitalist - Jesus did exist- it sounds like you are arguing with yourself and projecting a lot of hate and doing a lot of supposing- oh well, shine on, my fellow human
by Michael Lunney
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Great example of an argument that Christians think is so brilliant but that is pointless to everyone else. It only makes sense if you agree that the Bible was handwritten by God or is at least flawlessly accurate in all its statements. Of course we are free to believe that Jesus was a great moral teacher but not that he was God incarnate...of course we can find value in many of his teachings but ignore some of the stuff invented later by his followers. Jesus never said anything like "I am God!" or "I am the second person of The Trinity and that ghost over there is the third and my invisible father is the first". Concepts like the Trinity were invented much later. He made some ambiguous statements like "I and my father are one", and "You see me you see the Father" but that is afar cry from what modern Christians attribute to him, and no one knows if any of those statements are authentic to begin with.
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There are people out there who say the Holocaust couldn't have happened because the math doesn't add up over the time the Jews were being rounded up and the number of Jews killed per day......are we going to get a movie about that? No, because the subject matter is too inflammatory, as is the subject for this film. I respect this guy's right to make this film, but I doubt the audience exists for it. It seems Hollywood bends over backwards to display certain sensitivities to all kinds of various groups, but they are less likely to display these courtesies toward evangelical Christians. I guess it's because we don't approve of the gay lifestyle....well....neither do certain other religions.
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June 21, 2012, 3:47 p.m. CST
It's so cute to watch smug atheists and righteous Christians of the west endlessly bicker...
by DoctorWho?
...over scripture they both mistakenly interpret. So much of it is allegory... symbolic of higher truths. Millions of people mistakenly take it literally... as historical fact. There's way more depth to it than that. <p> The condescension of atheists is particularly amusing. All they are really doing is shooting fish in a barrel. How smart they must feel for proudly pointing out scientific inaccuracies of the Bible. *yawn* Truth is, they're both arguing over mistaken interpretations from the word go.<p> And really... even if you dismiss ALL religious scripture as simply a collection of myth, fables etc...it doesn't mean they are devoid of real wisdom or usefulness in ones life.<p> Having said all of that, I really have no interest in this movie. The hoopla surrounding it will be far more interesting. And disheartening.
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June 21, 2012, 4:06 p.m. CST
doctorwho? - of course the Bible is largely allegorical and has wisdom with its words- but there are many many books that can offer us similar wisdom - to each there own-
by Michael Lunney
too bad that wisdom is used to close so many minds to be judgmental, and not teachers... oh well humans and their emotions.. what can you say? Life is too short for so much conflict, internal and external
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June 21, 2012, 5:26 p.m. CST
I'd just like to know where this group of 'non-judgmental' humans are.
by DoctorWho?
As if people with religious beliefs are the only ones with dogma. The only ones creating conflict.
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June 21, 2012, 5:36 p.m. CST
There was already a movie made about Mohammed you dumb fucks!!
by ganymede3010
Granted, the movie never actually shows him but the film takes places from his first person perspective. This was made in the 80's and it's pretty popular in the muslim comminity. The movie is called the Message. So please cease with your the "Muslim" world go apeshit if a movie is made about their fictional diety "Mohammed".
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You're right. The Muslim world didn't go apeshit over a movie about Mohammed (which I'm sure was a reverential depiction).<p> However, drawing Mohammed as a cartoon in the funny papers? Different story.
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There is always an excuse! he said she said mumbo!!!!! JUMBO!!!!!!!!
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June 21, 2012, 9:29 p.m. CST
You cant change the gospels, but every church ever can!
by Emerald Snoggingbottom
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June 21, 2012, 9:30 p.m. CST
Veroeven hasn't made a good film since,fuck, maybe Robocop?
by Emerald Snoggingbottom
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June 21, 2012, 9:37 p.m. CST
Hey, millions of Catholics take Jesus into their mouths once a week
by Queefer Sutherland
Because the disciples did the same, except, of course, it was Christ's dick.
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June 22, 2012, 8:13 a.m. CST
Gideon: "Honestly, let's see them try this with Islam."
by kevinwillis.net
And that's all that needs to be said about "edgy" and "boundary pushing" Hollywood. Movies that treat the Bible like toilet paper are easy and conventional in 2012. Let's see them try it with Islam and the Prophet Mohammed . . . you know, in some context where there is an actual "edge" or some actual risk involved. Where a real boundary is actually pushed. What? No? How surprising.
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Where the twist was Nazis were actually rounding up zombies or vampires and putting them in camps could be really cool. But, again, "edgy" and "convention challenging" Hollywood would never do it.
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When THE MESSAGE (aka MOHHAMAD MESSENGER OF GOD) was relaese in the US in 1977, a fringe Muslim sect lay siege to several Washington DC buildings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Hanafi_Siege There was also 2004's MOHAMMAD: THE LAST PROPHET an animated film from Richard Rich, which like the other film doesn't depict the Prophet himself. No one seems to have taken offense with it.
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Not Mary Magdalene, but his Mother Mary. Mary M was watching and masturbating with a huge black dildo and he was wearing a crown of thorns and everything. To ramp things up even more they even had that shot they do in those fake virgin deflowering videos of the red food colorinig dripping down her butt cheeks since you know, Mary was a virgin and all. Then I started to think, if Jesus was born of her womb, wouldn't he have broken the hymen on the way out? Anyway, my point is this Verhoven movie sounds kind of like that, retarded for retarded sake. The only difference is I doubt there will be anything to jerk off to. However I did jerk it to the rape scene in The Accused so perhaps there's hope.
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From your brief description it sounds like he doesn't understand either Jesus nor the Roman Empire. Jesus specifically did not want to be a political leader, evidenced by his unwillingness to allow crowds to pressure him to become King. I predict a bad movie on it's way... Wonder of it will be as boring as The Last Temptation of Christ or overthetop violent like The Passion of the Christ or will it feature claymation like The Miracle Worker or will Jesus have blue eyes like in King of Kings or... Someday, someone will create a perfect movie about Jesus, but won't be this one!
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