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Did the Coen Brothers Kill A Cow With A Speeding Car For OH BROTHER WHERE ART THOU'

Hey folks, the PCP (penguin caffienated peppermints) and the scent of jasmine has begun to wear off and suddenly I find myself back at home. I'm looking up at Father Geek and saying, "But it was a truly real place. And Moriarty was there and Viagra was there. And this beautiful blue-eyed ebony goddess and Robin Tunney and Mini-me and even that man.... Jack Valenti." Father Geek doesn't seem to believe me. Dabbing my forehead with a wet rag and feeding me these small squares of paper. What are these things? Whatever they are, I bet the AHS rep that saw OH BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU? was on a few. But then... I haven't seen this footage. The folks at Digital Domain are getting quite the kick out of it. Heh... Coooool. Read for yourself....

From the annals of great back-handed compliments: yesterday, Joel and Ethan Coen's new film, "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" was screened for Disney executives. In attendance was a representative of the American Humane Society who inquired about a particular shot where a cow was hit by a car. The AHS rep was told that in fact the cow was digitally created. The shot was so convincing the rep refused to believe what she had seen could be anything but real. In fact, she looked at the shot 10 times.

In order for the filmmakers to be allowed to include the statement, "no animals were injured during the making of this film..." Digital Domain, the company that created the visual effects for the film, and the shot in question, will have to authenticate its work.

This had some of the amused digital artists mumbling, "where's the beef?"

Readers Talkback
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  • March 10, 2000, 2:32 a.m. CST

    Goodness...

    by Hipalien

    grief so much foul earthern words flung around on these talkbacks. My many ribs are splitting from the humorous effects. Outthereout

  • March 10, 2000, 2:35 a.m. CST

    They should have really run over the cow

    by Lester Diamond

    According to Roger Ebert's Movie Answer Man column, the only thing that would happen if you actually did hurt an animal during filming is that you wouldn't be able to but that AHS thing at the bottom. Who cares about that anyway? I can sleep just fine without that at the bottom of my film's credits. Screw them. It won't hurt business. In fact, it will probably help. ("Dude, I swear it was real. You gotta see this.") Kill it next time, boys. Can't wait to see this. "You want a toe, dude? I can get you a toe."

  • March 10, 2000, 2:50 a.m. CST

    Harry is animated?

    by eXcriMENt

  • March 10, 2000, 2:55 a.m. CST

    Moo.

    by ape

    If you actually ran over a cow for a movie, I think there would be more of a problem than not being able to have "the AHS thing" at the end of the credits...would be good for realism though:) I'm sure the "Dogma 95" people would do it...

  • March 10, 2000, 3:08 a.m. CST

    What about that flyin cow in 'Twister'??

    by Bannlust

    Twister had this flyin cow......(btw. that was the *only* funny thing in that movie)...so did ILM also have to proof that is was digitally created?? And what about the cockroaches in Joe's Apartment....and...eh BULLSHIT

  • March 10, 2000, 3:09 a.m. CST

    if they ran over the cow for real then...

    by MAlkovich

    they would do very poorly in india

  • March 10, 2000, 3:12 a.m. CST

    Twister

    by ape

    Phillip Seymour Hoffman was the best thing in Twister, flying cow comes in second place:) The best use of a cow was in "Three Kings." KABOOM! Ape

  • March 10, 2000, 3:22 a.m. CST

    Animal deaths, real and fake

    by Mickey Finn

    Poor cows. They

  • March 10, 2000, 3:23 a.m. CST

    Just a thought

    by Mickey Finn

    Kiddie porn is illegal in many countries EVEN IF the kiddies are fake (composite or generated images). This means that in the eyes of the law, it is

  • March 10, 2000, 3:31 a.m. CST

    The Pud Abides

    by Astro Pud

    There was a time not so long ago when pigs were afforded no respect, except by other pigs; they lived their whole lives in a cruel and sunless world. In those days pigs believed that the sooner they grew large and fat, the sooner they'd be taken into Pig Paradise, a place so wonderful that no pig had ever thought to come back.

  • March 10, 2000, 3:35 a.m. CST

    Faces of Death

    by ape

    The movie "Faces of Death" featured faked animal mutilations, portrayed as the real thing....when I was a kid, my friends and I saw this film and thought it was all true, even though the "doctor" in the movie was named Frances B. Gross:) Truly a seminal work of art.

  • March 10, 2000, 3:39 a.m. CST

    Thought Police/Minority Report/Coen Bros

    by Lazarus Long

    The last post about kiddie porn raised an interesting point. Should you be arrested for watching kiddie porn that ain't real? Isn't Blair Witch like watching a fake snuff film? At what point is the law going too far? In the story Minority Report, a trio of psychics (who are also mentally retarded) are used to predict the perpetrators of crimes before they happen. The lawbreakers-to-be are then arrested. Is this where we are headed? (Spielberg will somehow manage to miraculously film this without raising any ethical or controversial issues, keep your eyes peeled) "Oh Brother" is going to replace Big Lebowski as the coolest film ever. Sez me. *** and also, what's worse, the people who just say "I'm first", or the people who have some lame-ass one liner like "I can't wait for this film!!!", as if they actually had something to say besides planting their flag on top of the mountain? You people are pathetic. Considering first post on a Talkback as an achievement is like jerking off and thinking you've "scored". Get a life.

  • March 10, 2000, 3:42 a.m. CST

    "Meat Is Murder"

    by SpoilerMan

    Boy, that was a great albumn by the Smiths. I just saw "Wonder Boys" today and loved it. isn't Frances McDormand married to one of the Coen brothers? God, she is homely. I can't believe that sex-addict Michael Douglas turned down Katie Holmes for Frances. NOW THAT IS ACTING!

  • March 10, 2000, 3:45 a.m. CST

    by ape

    The funny thing about the Blair Witch Project was the people who really thought it was a snuff film. As if they would release real, uncut footage of kids getting slaughtered, but censor Eyes Wide Shut! Oh, nevermind:) By the way, I heard the european version of Eyes Wide Shut is uncensored.

  • March 10, 2000, 3:51 a.m. CST

    Frances McDormand is not homely:)

    by ape

    I think Ms. McDormand is pretty cute! Her husband makes good movies too. Wonder Boys was a REALLY good movie, and I recommend it wholeheartily.

  • March 10, 2000, 4:09 a.m. CST

    Got Coens?

    by Ambrose Chappell

    That's hilarious (and also very cool)! Digital Domain should be proud of themselves for creating something so life-like. Now, if only they can make George Clooney's acting seem life-like for this film...

  • March 10, 2000, 4:21 a.m. CST

    Sick and Sad.

    by chuzzelwitt

    Anybody who would go to see a movie and get kicks just because an animal had really died in it must be a bit deprived and lacking in emotion. As for the weirdo who was first on talkback - why dont you try and get out a bit more?

  • March 10, 2000, 4:25 a.m. CST

    animal deaths

    by Oso

    Just to add to Micky Finn's post. Anyone seen Beastmaster? Well besides all of the children that were sacrificed, the film makers also painted a tiger black to make it look like a panther, and as a result of this extremely creative use of special effects (this is irony for those mentally challenged individuals who might take me seriously), the poor beast died. But, of course it was worth it for the cinematic masterpiece that is the Beastmaster! Unfortunately the same cannot be said for Twister, but Three Kings and Mars Attacks kicked ass. Can't wait to see this film, by the way. And since I'm a first timer, Harry, you rock!

  • March 10, 2000, 4:31 a.m. CST

    Frances Did Not Look Her Best

    by SpoilerMan

    ...in "Wonder Boys"...more fair? Of course just about everybody (Douglas, McGuire too) looked rather seedy in the film. Except for Katie...*sigh*. I only I could engage in a foursome with me, Katie Holmes, Natalie Portman & Angelina Jolie...HEAVEN! Frances looked alot better back in "Blood Simple" or even "Darkman". Nothing a good facial and some dental work wouldn't cure! Still, I must say again that I absolutely loved "Wonder Boys"...high praise all around for those concerned. Go out and see this one, gentle talkbackers...it's much like a good meal, satisfying long after it's been consumed and leaving a silly grin on your face.

  • March 10, 2000, 4:41 a.m. CST

    A method of authentication...

    by Ninja Star

    ...to make it absolutely, 100% undoubtably a digital creation, the effects guys should go back and add in an extra scene or two. Right as the cow is about to get hit by the vehicle, it turns to the camera and its eyes bug out, ala Jim Carrey/MASK style. Oh, yeah. I'd pay $9.00 to see a cow with five-foot-long eyes, indeed, guaranteed ass-in-a-seat. Slipping back into the shadows, [NS]

  • March 10, 2000, 4:47 a.m. CST

    hehe

    by ape

    ...and Frances McDormand should be riding on top of the cow:)

  • March 10, 2000, 4:52 a.m. CST

    Cows

    by Dodgy Ken

    I think they should have killed a real cow, I fuckin hate animals.

  • March 10, 2000, 5:02 a.m. CST

    Hate is never the answer

    by ape

    Why do you hate living things so much, Dodgy? You say that you,"f***** hate animals." Why is that? What is your relationship with your mother like? Does she know you hate cows and other wildlife? Answer the question!:)

  • March 10, 2000, 6:11 a.m. CST

    tragedy

    by newfers

    I have it on good authority that the cow killed for the movie had cancer, and was going to die anyway. It had udder cancer.

  • March 10, 2000, 6:15 a.m. CST

    YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS LARRY?THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU _FUCK_

    by Mickey Finn

    Sorry John-lee-ander. I just HAD to finish that sentence. If the Coen brothers never made another movie, The Big Lebowski would stand as two hours of glorious perfection. My God I love that movie. It gets better each time I watch it. It

  • March 10, 2000, 6:30 a.m. CST

    Cow Philosophy

    by Lethal Waffle

    What's up with cows ?... reading this article about the new Coen Movie, I already know I will be laughing when this poor cow will be smashed in a car-burger... as I laughed when it blew up in "Three Kings" or flew away in "Twister" (dito for "Mars attacks !")... But let's think about it just for a minute ? What if it was a dog or a horse that was hit by a car... we would not laugh... I am sure all of you felt sad when Kevin Costner's horse is killed in "Dances With Wolves" (again if Kevin was riding a cow, you would think it's funny), or you felt disgusted when the horses are perforated in "Braveheart"... maybe some of you cried at the end of "Turner & Hooch" or in "Dead Calm" when the puppy dog gets it... (one exception : the desintegrated dog in "Mars Attacks !"... very funny). What did we learn today : Hollywood is unfair to cows.

  • March 10, 2000, 8:23 a.m. CST

    Classic Cow Moments

    by MadMartigen

    Rembember that scene from Jakob the Liar where that cow dresses up as a 15th century British fishmonger in order to sneak into that XXX-rated movie about the psychotic tax assessor who taught his poodle to say "mama"? Man that was weird, huh? Anyway, my vote for the most violence done to animals in a move goes to "Meet the Feebles". I saw that when I was stoned and I still havent recovered. The horror...

  • March 10, 2000, 8:26 a.m. CST

    DO PEOPLE HAVE TO SPOIL FILMS JUST CAUSE THEY'VE SEEN THEM!!!

    by thelightsleeper

    So far in this talk back someone has spoilt the end of Magnolia and the end of Wonder Boys!!! Why!!!! Just cause you've seen the films don't assume that everyone else has - this is a talk back about blowin' up cows not blowing endings! Please try to think before you ruin someone elses enjoyment of a movie. You probably dug the film cause the ending was a surprise - so why should it be different for anyone else? Is that too much to ask. Sheesh!

  • March 10, 2000, 9:05 a.m. CST

    Listen up ape man

    by Dodgy Ken

    My relationship with my mother was fine until I carved her up and sold her on me market stall........in it.

  • March 10, 2000, 9:07 a.m. CST

    We haven't ruined any endings

    by Mickey Finn

    The only time in this talkback that a central revelation to a film's ending has been revealed is my comment on Magnolia, and what I said about Magnolia was no more informative than what the filmmakers put on their OWN POSTER. If you think they're dumbasses for doing that, I agree (just like I think the Sleepy Hollow promo team were dumbasses by putting their surprise celebrity cameo on their poster).

  • March 10, 2000, 9:25 a.m. CST

    Sullivan's Travels

    by usagi

    Wasn't "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?" the title of the movie that was being researched in Sullivan's Travels?

  • March 10, 2000, 9:49 a.m. CST

    This cow thing...

    by agentcooper

    This story reminds me of the one last year where everybody was up in arms about how David O. Russel had used a "Real Cadaver" to show what happened when a bullet hit the human body. Yeah. That'd be easier to light...By the way, I knew my girlfriend was the one for me when she bought a copy of Fargo for herself on Laserdisc because it was "so damn funny."

  • March 10, 2000, 9:52 a.m. CST

    Snake Abuse

    by twindaggerturkey

    How can these people in the Humane Society get their panties in a bunch about a CGI cow when thousands of snakes are mutilated onscreen each year in the Hong Kong film industry?

  • March 10, 2000, 10:16 a.m. CST

    humans at bottom of the chain

    by peopleeater

    Humans are hardly the top of the food chain--only someone who reads at a kindergarten level would say that(Da Mick--you are a moron--or a typical human). You too Lester Diamond. To get pleasure from the suffering of others--oh how human! Lets see...humans pollute the oceans, the atmosphere, overpopulate the planet, kill anything that they can touch, waste zillions to fly up into the air in a steel bucket while they starve on earth. Oh yes Da mick, humans really are the top! Top of the shit pile is more accurate. No other species behaves as pathetically as humans--in fact--other species are saints next to them. Even noble folks like the Humane society or peta, they are just doing damage control. Humane...there's a word for ya. It means to be good and kind; inhumane? to be cruel and wicked...So humans are good and nonhumans evil? When was the last time a pig poured gasoline onto its on offsprings head and set it on fire? Or injected its youngin' with aids to get out of child support. Leave it to humans to project their own worthless qualities onto innocents. You want to see how much of a failure the human race is? Read the daily paper! Human race "top of the chain!" Nothing is so funny as that primitive, superstitious drivel. Twain knew it, Voltaire knew it, Swift knew it. Intelligence and misantrhopy go hand in hand(misanthropy--look it up Da Mick). Socrates, pythagoras, Diogenes,plutarch, Da vinci,Mary and Percy Shelley, Mr. and Dr. Spock--veggie folk all. I guess genius and vegetarianism go together. Not that I would expect many filmmakers (or digital artists I guess) to be part of that distiguished group. As for the comment about snakes--the animal groups are upset about asian abuses--but those countries are becoming community sewers everyday--better to think globally and act globally as they say.

  • March 10, 2000, 10:22 a.m. CST

    oops

    by peopleeater

    meant to say think globally and act locally..spending too much time here...

  • March 10, 2000, 10:26 a.m. CST

    Killing even a single cow in the name of art is wrong,

    by L'Auteur

    but killing millions so McDonald's can take over the world and create "billions and billions" of disgusting fat people is perfectly OK.

  • March 10, 2000, 10:34 a.m. CST

    They're going to take me away (ha ha).

    by danhelm

    Well, from the kidde porn advocates to the Zero Population Growth misanthropic extremists, where does that leave us people who care about the Cohen Brother's movie? By the way, if you think animals are better than people, please, by all means, kill yourself...

  • March 10, 2000, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Dead Cow Disease

    by Dmann

    Ok, its a cow, even if they killed it, who really cares. Anyone who believes cows have souls have never met one, they are broccoli with a stomach....cows are damn near the stupidest animals in the world, next to chickens. Now i may be accused of being an in bred, backwater, country-ass toothless idiot, but i assure you, i have all my teeth! You try being stranded in Iowa!

  • March 10, 2000, 10:50 a.m. CST

    There are so many things wrong with what you said, peopleeater..

    by All Thumbs

    I don't know where to start. How about...PETA is a noble organization?

  • March 10, 2000, 10:59 a.m. CST

    Hitchcock---Peopleeater

    by BIG JIM SLADE

    Hitchcock once said that it is never wise to kill an animal, such as a dog, in a movie, because the audience will immediately turn against you. People in general love animals. As for the guy who has a hatred of them, well most children who exhibit violence toward animals do so because they have been teased harshly, or have severe mental problems. In fact, as sad as this is for the gay community, most of children who hurt small animals show large homosexual tendencies. As for that peopleeater guy, although there have been plenty of intelligent people of the vegitarian side, there are equally as many meat eating brains. Your body and teeth were made to eat meat, so why deny your biological makeup. My personal vote for the most kills done to any animal has to go to "The Adventures of Milo and Otis." Although there were no deaths in the movie itself, they went through about 20 cats on the river scene alone.

  • March 10, 2000, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Of films, beef, and extremists

    by r.d.olivaw

    It is interesting that vegetarians can reconcile the often inconsistant thoughts of animals being on the same level with people. Are these people Christian? If so, then they would know that God created us in His image, not the animals, and that they are her as part of his grand plan for us to use for our betterment and prgression. Or are these people atheists? If so they must realize that we are the pinnacle (so far) of evolution, and if the survival of the fittest is to be believed than we are only showing our dominance and superiority over animals when we harness them for our betterment. Either way, there is no equation I see that has us equal to animals, no matter how badly you want to feel good abotu yourself as an "enlightened" indivdual, it just doesn't make sense.

  • March 10, 2000, 11:53 a.m. CST

    Mr. Mittens has gone to the litterbox in the sky

    by Space_Ghost

    Hey kids, Space Ghost here, and today I want to say a few things about something that can be very tough to handle. When you have a pet, and you love him or her or it very much, it's hard to see him or her or it go, but that's just nature's way. When Mr. Mittens was accitdentally run over by Zorak, sure I was heart-broken, but I'm quite sure it was an accident. Hey, wait a second, Zorak doesn't own a car, he doesn't even know how to drive....and how come he insisted on taking care of the burial plans.....shoe box in the back yard my foot.

  • March 10, 2000, 12:36 p.m. CST

    God Almighty gave Man dominion over all the animals!

    by Bono

    So it is our RIGHT to hit cows with speeding automobiles!! Besides, I heard that the cow in question was very depressed and STEPPED in front of the car. And on top of that, a technical advisor from McDonalds was on hand to supervise the mayhem. God bless the Coens!

  • March 10, 2000, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Animal cruelty

    by Dr. Shrinker

    I also was rather taken aback by Mr. Slade's completely-without-evidence assertion that children who abuse animals grow up to be gay. On the other hand, there IS evidence that children who abuse animals, wet the bed, and set fires grow up to be serial killers. Heterosexual serial killers, usually.

  • March 10, 2000, 12:52 p.m. CST

    peopleeater: Dead cows are funny!

    by Jacob Corbin

    Your practiced misanthropism doesn't wash. Sure many humans are sleazebuckets unfit to live...but the same century that gave us Hitler and Stalin also gave us Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, and yes, the Coen Brothers. As well as the ordinary heroism billions of people exhibit every day of their lives. Contrary to the defeatist propaganda most people buy into hook, line, and sinker, human history is an ever-ascending exponential curve of progress both moral and intellectual. The next century holds wonders that will easily defy the present limits of our imagination and one of those will be the next COEN BROS. movie. So lighten up, shut up, and appreciate the subtlety of dead cow humor extraordinaire.

  • March 10, 2000, 1:09 p.m. CST

    Grunter, Don't Be Such A Mary

    by SpoilerMan

    ...my foursome fantasy is completely legal in all 50 U.S. states! admit, it...just switch the participants to yourself, Ricky Martin, James Van Der Beek, Leonardo Dicaprio and Freddie Prinz Jr. and you'd be on cloud nine. If your're going to fantasize, spoil yourself, darling... I do!

  • March 10, 2000, 1:14 p.m. CST

    Dicks and Flicks

    by Mr. Impossible

    This topic reminds me of that recent thing with Crush Videos--I knew humans were pretty much capable of anything, but I never would have dreamed that someone could actually get horny watching a woman in high heels crush live kittens, monkeys, bugs to death. How can you jack off while you hear them screaming? The internet is an eyeopener. There is alot of good reasons to be ashamed to be human(although i wouldnt have said it so directly as someone else did). :) Animals get treated far worse than the most hated criminals--and they are better behaved and far more rational in behaviour than many humans I have met. And even if humans were the top of the food chain(which sounds like a holdover from racist/bigoted/anthropocentric religions to me) they wont be for long. We are doing a very good job of killing ourselves off. Nowadays 6 year olds are getting into the act! Umbreago! And speaking of cattle--arent they feeding cattle parts to cattle in north America like they do in britain? So if you want to chow down ona burger--your welcome to bovine growth hormone and brain disease. You reap what you sew. Too bad the animals suffer but at least its over when they are dead. And while I dont see how the Coens can make a joke out of killing a cow--its alot better than the good ol days. Charge of the light Brigade from the late 30s killed or maimed 200 horses i hear. It was after that that they started to set up rules. But they were still killing animals for real(like the mule in Patton). And I recall that dog in men in Black getting shaken around pretty viciously--if you did that to a baby it would be a felony. man this is depressing. Humans suck. think i'll go hug an ant now.

  • March 10, 2000, 1:32 p.m. CST

    When does it come out?

    by Lester

    So does anybody know when OBWAT is supposed to come out? First it was supposed to be this spring (guess not), IMDB says fall, but I've also heard summer. Anybody got the skinny. I can't wait. And PEOPLEATER - strange that someone so diefically high minded should be posting to Harry's slummy talkback, and it may be time for you to consider some pharmacological management of those issues you have there I just know there's a peppy little kitten struggling to get out.

  • March 10, 2000, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Killin' Cows

    by Daredevil

    Who cares whether you have the "no animals were hurt..." disclaimer? Just run over a real cow! It's a lot cheaper and all you're doing is wasting a few hundred pounds of hamburger! It's not like they would be torturing the dumb thing.

  • March 10, 2000, 1:44 p.m. CST

    Stop being wrong, L'Auteur...

    by Owatonna

    ...it's disorientating. Killing for the sake of art is wrong, not just because of what it does to the victim (the cow, in this case, were it to be a real cow, which it seems not to be), but because of what it does to the art. To live for art is impressive, and sometimes admirable. To die for it is excessive and reeks of self-indulgence. To kill for it (even a cow) is sick, and taints the end result. Beauty with blood on it is just elegant ugliness.

  • March 10, 2000, 1:45 p.m. CST

    Why humans are superior to animals

    by usagi

    < puts hands together, palm to palm- bends both middle fingers down on top of the hand opposite- rotates hands on an equal plane (right hand away from body)- wiggles middle fingers back and forth > Let's see a cow do THAT!

  • March 10, 2000, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Grunter: You Go, Girl!

    by SpoilerMan

    Hey, whatever floats your boat, my brother. It's a cold, hard world and we all need to take love where we can find it. If I can accept your wilford brimley/richard karn fantasy, why can't you cut me some slack on Katie Holmes? The world is surely big enough for both of our particular perversions! :)

  • March 10, 2000, 3:13 p.m. CST

    What's the hell's with Clooney and Cows?

    by MrKearns

    Is it just me or does Clooney have a thing for cow-death or sumthin... Three Kings, exploding cow. O Brother Where Art Thou, roadkill cow. I'll bet the Perfect Storm is gonna have a cow floating in the ocean, drowning, for no good reason. That's why all cows should wear swimmies when they go for a dip. My 2 cents.

  • March 10, 2000, 4:04 p.m. CST

    by EL Duderino

  • March 10, 2000, 4:12 p.m. CST

    THE STORY MUST BE SO SICK!!

    by EL Duderino

    At first, I thought the movie was about some escaped convicts searching for buried gold in the south. Then I heard that it was about a terrible director that wanted to make a touching film called "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" that was critically slammed. But now we've got stuff about a cow getting hit by a car and... well, this movie is just going to rock! I still get chills thinking about those falling scenes in Hudsucker Proxy!

  • March 10, 2000, 4:24 p.m. CST

    Cowzat!

    by Kraven

    For the record, my grandmother was an old cow.

  • March 10, 2000, 4:45 p.m. CST

    hey BIG JIM!

    by MadMartigen

    don't be too harsh on "Milo and Otis" man. You act as though all those dead kitty carcasses were wasted. Hell no. I can tell you, 20 cats can make up a heapin' helpin' of tacos for the whole filming crew. It's not like they just let their dead bloated bodies wash downstream. Sheesh.

  • March 10, 2000, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Owatonna? Have you ever seen Apocalypse Now?

    by L'Auteur

    nuff said.

  • March 10, 2000, 5:01 p.m. CST

    Evolution/Vegetarianism

    by Lazarus Long

    Let me preface these remarks by stating I'm a meat eater, although I'm trying to cut down on red meat. I have a hard time resisting chicken though. Having said that, I'd like to address the remarks by someone who said it is in our nature to be carnivores, we have the teeth for it, etc. Well, yeah, we also used to wear animal skins, walk around with clubs and beat animals to death for food. Evolution has advanced (slightly), and the reason we have the teeth to eat meat is because we still do so! I've said it before, but if you think man can't evolve any further you're crazy. If vegetarianism spread widely our body structure would surely change over time. We would probably become a much more streamlined species. This is going even more off-topic here, but for millenia the male had to hunt and kill for food, protect the mother & family, etc. Although these services are no longer needed, men have a hard time letting go of the whole "macho" mentality. Therefore you have guns, hunting, motorcycles, etc. which men use as substitutes to fufill their macho needs. Vegetarianism is in complete opposition to propagating this mentality, and that's why these Tough Guys equate not eating meat with being a "faggot" or "sissy". The reality is that we will only evolve further as a species when the bullshit posturing is abandoned. The line between the sexes may blur a bit when men begin to accept the feminine aspect of their nature, but where's the loss there? Unfortunately, the extreme male is a relic that refuses to go away. The battle is over. We're only fighting ourselves now. All research points to a longer life span for vegetarians, grain can feed more people than grain-fed animals can. Even Einstein knew it. Perhaps I'm being hypocritical because I haven't taken the next step myself; I'm like a smoker who knows he should quit. But I'm trying.

  • March 10, 2000, 5:21 p.m. CST

    revelation:

    by whizkid

    humans are animals. Yep. Look it up in your jr. high biology text: right there in the taxonomy chart we find our species of animal. Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: chordata Family: mammalia (wow, in the same family as those big dumb cows). So all those relying on the habitual 'people vs. animals' false distinction need to rethink the old logic. We breathe the same air, drink the same water, and rely on the same biological processes of life as our fellow animals. Sure there are distinctions, and yes it is fine to be a human, but we mislead our much vaunted brains when we act as if the human is some separate type of being; as if deified by our frontal lobes and handy tool-handling digits and given god's grace to slaughter, enslave, and devour our neighbor creatures to serve our greedy desires. Morrissey said it well: Meat is murder, indeed. Ok, class dismissed.

  • March 10, 2000, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Animals are inferior...

    by danhelm

    Animals are not rational. Simple as that. Have you seen how a lion takes down another animal? How a male will kill a rival and kill it's offspring and mate with the rival's mate? Please, spare all this "humans act worse than animals" crap. We act the same at times, with a brutality that sickens the mind, but for all the nobility the PETA types give to irrational animals who AREN'T AWARE THEY EXIST, it is humans who can act and think rationally and make sense of the world around us. MEAT IS NOT MURDER, IT IS THE WAY OF NATURE. Finally, of course man is superior to other animals; just think of the miracle of what you are doing right now, staring at an extremely complicated array of circuitry, communicating with others using symbols that are combined to form a language that is used to communicate thought.

  • March 10, 2000, 5:59 p.m. CST

    Dumbass

    by Wood-Yi

    So much wrong with Lazarus Long's post it ain't funny. First, why do you hate yourself and your maleness so much? Have the feminazis gotten into you so deep? The vast majority of women when it comes down to it still prefer a man who will protect them (I don't agree with this either and think women should be fighting on the battlefield too). There are many more female neanderthals who enjoy the sight of an aggressive guy bullying or subduing others. This has nothing to do with polically correct thinking but with the depravity of human nature. So most macho behavior is determined by female desire and male jockeying for power. Moral leadership ultimately fails to advance the species physically because the lowest denominator of man always breeds at a faster clip. So evolution does not proceed as you state. Change as you seek occurs only by force of rule and enforcement of law by the ruling power of which you are not nor will vegetarians ever be. Your men are macho crap is also tired. Most men are more docile than most women (despite the misinformation planted by feminazis) and most wars are fought by men reluctant but forced to go to protect their wives. I'm not saying stuff that's popular just stuff that's true which is more than your fantasizing can ever accomplish. I get so sick of pusses like you. Start thinking about the world as it is and then maybe you can change it. BTW, I'm not against vegetarianism but sloppy thinking.

  • March 10, 2000, 7:04 p.m. CST

    Say You Want an Evolution....

    by Ifrit

    Lazarus, I don't claim to be well versed in evolution but I'll have to disagree with your statement that evolution for humans will lead to herbivory if everyone stopped eating meat. Evolution works through death. The only way herbivory will be written into the human genome is if meat eating somehow causes death _before_ reproductive age. If people merely conciously switch to vegetariansim they still have the DNA and the resulting body parts to eat meat. DNA is passed on and on and on so descendants for centuries to come will still have incisors and other meat-eating-adapted traits. The body could temporarily switch off uneeded enzymes and stuff I think but once meat is in the system they'll be turned back on in time. Sad to say in a way but human evolution hasn't done much for the past several thousand years. Most advancements have been made in technology, not biology. To stay on topic, I think that it is ludicrous to even consider a real cow being used in the film. I mean, did the cow in Jurassic Park _really_ get eaten by robotic velociraptors? Ifrit

  • March 10, 2000, 7:13 p.m. CST

    rotting flesh

    by whizkid

    this psuedo-science that human bodies are designed as carnivores is just wrong. Most of our teeth, for instance, are grain grinding molars, much like those of primates (who, of course, are vegetarians) and our very very long intestinal tract (something like 36 times our body length) is very poor at digesting flesh -- real flesh eaters like large cats have intenstines only a few times the length of their body, the better to speed the explusion of dead meat out of the body (think about that next time you have a chunk of flesh rotting away in your intestinal tract -- or better yet, don't put that shit in your body). There is quite a bit of good literature on the subject, if you can get around the beef council's PR lock on your mind (and probably your local library, too), *Diet for a small planet* is not a bad place to start to begin to learn the truth. And, yes, meat is indeed murder among animals who can chose a better way, but refuse to.

  • March 10, 2000, 7:26 p.m. CST

    last words

    by whizkid

    one final post, continuing almost completely off-topic (well, bovines are still involved) did you know that disgusting Red bull piss drink has real bull bile in it? I kid you not. If you are a vegetarian, or you care about animals, or you are sickened at the thought of drinking bull spit, stay far away from that awful offal juice (hm, a wordplay, hehe), that evil vile bile fluid.. (getting worked up now, I will take my medication). ok, everyone's gone home now, office is closed, whizkid's really got to go.

  • March 10, 2000, 8:19 p.m. CST

    A Nation Of Nancy Boys!

    by Seward

    Well, we've degenerated into a nation of nancy boys, afraid to face up to death, and ready to censor anyone who dares to do it. We'll accept mass cow slaughter for food, of course, as long as we don't have to see it. We want wild animals around, just not around us. We want dogs, but not the kind that bite. This is a nation of prissy, effete, pansy-assed PC dickwads. I've had it! I'm gettin' my gun.

  • March 10, 2000, 8:49 p.m. CST

    mmmmmm....beef...oouuughaghg..(drool)

    by sigma957

    Homer to the rescue.... seriously...i dont care if the had to take 27 takes with an assortment of cattle....they are destined to be food!!!! Get over it people....christ...in my Great State of Wisconsin (sorry.... broke into my Young Republican national convention geek voice for a second there) we slaughter an approximated 25,000 cute little bambi's on the road every year....don't get the AHS showing up everytimte the highway patrol scrapes another carcas off the road. We raise them to kill them, a sledege hammer to the skull, .45 to head or a the front bumber of a 89 buick lesabre.....don't matter, it dies, somebody cleans up the mess and something somewhere eats it....circle of life...we just speed it up a little.

  • March 10, 2000, 9:15 p.m. CST

    Hey "Grunter"

    by Wolvie6

    Nice name ass raider! So we "breeders" all smell of "fish"? All you "Ass Raiders" all smell of shit!! At least I put it where it is supposed to go!! And please don't fucking give me any shit all you queenies about how I'm a bigot. This idiot calls straight people "breeders".I can call him an "ass raider". Sick of homos dumping on straight people and we are supposed to walk on eggs for them!! Get bent queenies!!!

  • March 10, 2000, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Re: Wood-Yi

    by Lazarus Long

    Feminazis? I didn't know anyone still listen to Rush Limbaugh's empty rhetoric. A guy who's only a fraction smarter than his close-minded audience that revers him as a god. Who said I hated myself? I'm proud of the part of me that is male. I'm also proud of the female aspects of my personality. How is this self-hating? Self-hating are people like you who use words like "Feminazis" and afraid of woman having an equal place in society. This is the same mentality that leads to homophobia, which you appear to have at least a mild case of, due to your cliched response of calling me a pussy. You are afraid of having a feminine side, so you supress it. Welcome to the world of latent homosexuality. Did you do the Elephant Walk during your fraternity initiation ceremonies? And then your deranged notion of women enjoying the inherent violence in unevolved men. I'm sure there are people like that, but they live in trailer parks, and as you correctly noted, unfortunately reproduce at an alarming rate. As for the intelligent sector of society, what exactly do women need men to protect them from? A paycheck? I hate to tell you but we aren't required to stand on our property with a rifle and fend off "bandits" or the like anymore. Women don't need any protection from men. Maybe some love and understanding. What the hell does fighting in a war have to do with anything? You must be so proud of your big, hairy testosterone-filled balls. Keep strokin' 'em, cowboy. Grow up.

  • March 10, 2000, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Carnivore!

    by Ifrit

    Of course people aren't made to be carnivores. Or herbivores. The mix-and-match array of human teeth is for omnivory.

  • March 10, 2000, 10:54 p.m. CST

    Whizkid

    by danhelm

    Like all good extremists, you need a conspiracy theory: the beef council, I suppose, is the new Stonecutters (who keeps the metric system down? We dooo, we dooo...). Oh well, its a Friday during lent and I can't eat beef anyways today. But, in the honor of every pinko, cow loving meat-is-murder PETA member, I'm gonna have myself a steak tommora! Yee haw! Chew on that, you zero-population-growth ninnies!

  • March 10, 2000, 11:03 p.m. CST

    Cowabunga

    by Seany

    Maybe it was a Mad Cow and it committed suicide.... Well, if everyone else can put stupid stuff on here, so can I. Should I have ended that sentence with 'I', maybe it should have been Can I So? Who cares, maybe I'm Mad..?

  • March 10, 2000, 11:11 p.m. CST

    BIO 101

    by BIG JIM SLADE

    Guess I'll beat this horse a little more (pun intended). Ok, aside from the teeth that are designed to eat both plants and meats, your body needs something called complete proteins, which contain the essential amino acids. These proteins are easily aquired through eating the muscles of animals...the muderous meat you all speak of. You can also get them through coupling various types of vegetables, beans and rices together, but this is more difficult. As for the guy who made a case about our intestines not being able to handle meat very well, this is not really true, as we consume quite a bit of meat without harm. Also, apes, chimps, and all them other monkeys can not consume legumes because they can not digest them. A case of legumes being murder. There may be many well educated vegetarians out there, just not any in this talkback.

  • March 10, 2000, 11:20 p.m. CST

    Cows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by Rhames111

    I once tipped a cow over. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.............THE COEN BROTHERS FUCKING ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • March 11, 2000, 12:47 a.m. CST

    Clarification

    by Seward

    By "nancy boys" I mean most people who don't live in Alaska. I certainly don't mean gays. Let the record show, there are plenty of salt-of-the-earth bears around here who know what life's about. And there are countless straight guys Outside who'd fall to little pieces if faced with the true wilderness.

  • March 11, 2000, 12:45 p.m. CST

    Whine whine whine

    by Devastator

    holy shmoley people eater Would you please stop your WHINING!! sheesh...

  • March 11, 2000, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Hey Seward:

    by Adanedhel

    Nice to see another fellow Alaskan around here! These meat-is-murder people need someone who from an area where some people still depend on hunting animals for their survival. Vegetarianism is really a luxury of an agricultural society - and it does have its advantages and benefits. However, a few Alaskans still chose an alternative mode of living - a subsistence one. And even for many Alaskans who now live the modern way, subsistence remains an important cultural force. Its unfortunate that so few people Outside (and, sadly, to an increasing degree, in Alaska too) have the experience of harvesting food directly from the natural wilderness; it gives you such a feeling of connection to the land, and a much greater appreciation for the natural world and your own place in it.

  • March 11, 2000, 5:18 p.m. CST

    Look upon me! I'll show you the life of the mind!

    by Ambrose Chappell

    THE BIG LEBOWSKI was a great and fun movie, but it doesn't hold a candle to that Coen brothers

  • March 11, 2000, 9:30 p.m. CST

    I LOVE cows...

    by rmfx

    ...especially the one I ate on that 12 inch steak and cheese for lunch--good stuff! My suede jacket and Skechers give me warm fuzzies too! Nothing smells or wears like leather! By the way, I haven't seen a Coen Bros. film since Raising Arizona. God, I hated Nick Cage even back then... Who'd have thought he'd be a star?

  • March 11, 2000, 11 p.m. CST

    Carnage R Us

    by ignatov

    There's a long history of animal killing for the sake of entertainment. Oklahoma in currently embroiled in a fracas over whether to outlaw cockfighting. Howard Thurston, a magician of the golden age would place a dove in the chamber of a gun and fire it, then the bird would "appear" in a cage across the stage. Of course, this was a duplicate bird; the unlucky dove chosen to go in the gun was KILLED during the performance, once a day and twice on weekends. I'm no PETA head, but causing death merely for entertainment seems a little cavalier.

  • March 12, 2000, 4:19 p.m. CST

    Dead Puppies Aren't Much Fun...

    by Sorcerer

    This debate (or rather, group of related debates) is getting interesting. Basically, I do have to take Digital Domain's word on this- running over an actual cow would also endanger the driver, because when you hit something that large there's no telling exactly what will happen to the car. Too risky, and it's more convenient to fake it. That must be pretty convincing footage, though, to make any member of the Humane Society think a real cow was involved. I guess the film will have at least one really good special effect. "And the winner is- Digital Domain, OH BROTHER WHERE ART THOU?, for the dead cow scene!"

  • March 12, 2000, 7:33 p.m. CST

    Animal Rights

    by Seward

    There's a quick and easy solution to the hypocrisy from the animal rights people. Right now, there are too many wolves in SW, and many packs will starve even if they aren't killed. Why not ship them, along with some brownies, to Southern California? Too many yippy dogs down there, anyway.

  • March 12, 2000, 8:16 p.m. CST

    Wonder Boys? Dunder Boys is more like it.

    by Wee Willie

    Am I the only person around who thought Wonder Boys was about a university professor who's so much of a self-absorbed asshole that his life is a mess? And what was with the scene at the end where he ditches his bag of weed as a symbol of his new artistic freedom. Yeah right, am I supposed to buy that he was creatively blocked for seven years from smoking ganja? And why was Katie Holmes criticizing his work for being too detailed? That's what book editors are for. The bullshit "Just Say No" message made me want to puke. I liked all the actors in this film and it had great 'East Coast Campus' atmosphere. But please, I'm getting tired of these movies about affluent people and their problems. 8 1/2 it ain't folks. Thank you for your time and attention.

  • March 13, 2000, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Some misconceptions

    by marsyas

    Okay, there are a lot of bad arguments being thrown about on both sides of the issue, so let me supply some facts. First of all, humans are not at the "pinnacle" of evolution. Evolution does not have a direction; we are just as likely to evolve into stupider, weaker, slower animals as we are to become smarter, stronger, and faster. It all depends on what is most advantageous for our current environment. We are arguably the smartest of the animals, but are we the strongest? No. Are we the fastest? No. Do we live the longest? No. So how can anyone say that we are better than any other animal? We have simply adapted to our niche in the environment, just like every other species has. The other point I wish to address is the claim that our primate cousins do not eat meat. This is not true. They don't eat MUCH meat, true, but they will partake if and when it is available. Sometimes they will even seek it out. This happens in the wild. I think that humans in industrialized societies eat FAR TOO MUCH meat, but I do not think that there is any reason to give it up entirely. I also think that animals doomed to the slaughterhouse should be treated more humanely while they are alive. If we ate less meat, we could afford to do this.

  • March 14, 2000, 11:55 a.m. CST

    still here?!?

    by whizkid

    I was asleep for a very long time; imagine my surprise to see this trail still here. Since a few posts were aimed my direction, response is in order: BIG JIM especially seemed to miss a few salient points (too concerned about my intelligence to see his own non-sequitors) he notes that some humans 'consume quite a bit of meat without harm' He gets half credit for the first portion of that sentence, which is quite true. For harm, how about heart disease, high blood pressure related conditions, and colon and rectal cancers related to meat consumption? And BJS does know how to work a slick paraphrase, but 'legumes are murder' doesn't have that hit sound of the Smiths, nor does it play two ways as does the original: not only is meat murder on the human bodies which consume it (the sense he plays on in his clever primate analaogy) but it is also murder of the sentient beings slaughtered and devoured. And of course this discussion, fascinating as it has been, didn't even touch on the environmental destruction following from meat addiction; from methane gas of the animals, to overgrazing, to massive misuse of clean water for stock, to the sensitive ecosystems mowed down for cattle in S.America. Also neglected until almost the end (thanx rmfx) were the fashion victims who believe dead flesh is the best for shoes, coats, etc. Just ask Woody about the many good uses for hemp: shoes, clothes, accessories. A healthier life and world is not that far away, just beyond the culture of death some here seem to embrace with gallows (or slaughterhouse) humor. And rmfx, you haven't seen a Coen bros movie since RAISING ARIZONA? God, that's pitiful (or, looked at a positive way, as I like to, that's exciting to have all that great movie discovery still ahead of you: MILLER'S CROSSING, BARTON FINK, HUDSUCKER PROXY, FARGO, BIG LEBOWSKI! Enjoy).

  • March 15, 2000, 4:36 p.m. CST

    Primate time

    by Lester

    Many other primates eat meat, and not just incects and carrion. Chimpanzees hunt other mammals, including other primates. And nobody knows when this is coming out? And don't tell me I got the last word!?!?