Cool News
Ben Burtt talks to the film geeks... while Corleone watches...
Hey there folks, Harry here with Corleone's report on Ben Burtt. All around mythic god of blips, wheezes, hisses and thumps... One of, if not, the greatest sound men in history. Here's a damn fine report by someone who well... he's in the family business. Here ya go...
Harry-
Corleone here. If a high ranking made man such as myself had to name one
person who was responsible for changing the landscape of incredible movie
making in the past quarter century, who would it be? Lucas? Speilberg?
John Williams? Coppola (Francis, not Sophia!)? Scorcese?
How about a man who single-handedly made good movies into great ones. Ben
Burtt. Who may you ask? He is the man responsible for the sound design
in every Star Wars movie, every Indiana Jones movie, and most importantly,
Howard the Duck. In addition, Mr. Burtt is responsible for editing every
scene that made Episode I a cool movie (he, NOT LUCAS, edited the Pod Race
scene, the final battle sequence, etc). More importantly, he is the man
who gave R2D2 a personality, made Indiana Jones punch like no other, and
gave ships that should make no sound in space rumble our subwoofers until
our ears go deaf. In short, the man is a genius.
I had the distinct pleasure of seeing Mr. Burtt at a celebration of
Technology event in my home town of Syracuse, NY. He holds a B.S. in
Physics and an M.A. in film. Mr. Burtt is from Syracuse, and his father
was even a chemistry teacher at Syracuse University for some 35 years.
In fact, many of the sounds from the Star Wars movies were captured right
of the SU campus (more on that to follow),
The evening was incredible. I left feeling so juiced for Episode II.
After attending this event (and speaking with Mr. Burtt one on one), I
left with the same feeling that I had after seeing the Episode I teaser
trailer. Remember that feeling? That feeling of "Oh my god that is so
damn cool?"
Burtt started of the evening by talking about his reservations when he got
his first job out of college, on a movie known at the time as "The Star
Wars." He was talking with George Lucas about how space is a vacuum.
Were people really going to go for something like this? Lucas replied,
"Sound, hell, we're going to have MUSIC in space!"
Next, Burtt noticed a cardboard cutout of a battledroid near the podium.
He mentioned that he had a special connection with them, for they were
modeled after him! In fact, the movements of the battledroids were all
based on the motion capture of Burtt himself from a Vicon Motion System
(THE best motion capture system in both movie special effects and medical
useage). Burtt stated how embarassed he was that the droids each had his
distinct walk.
Next, Burtt went into his role in the academy awards. Aparently, for the
sound design award, they literally have a "bake-off" (this is what they
actually call it) where the academy invites you to bring a 10 minute
edited piece that "best exemplifies your work in sound design." Burtt then
showed us his"bake-off" reel that the academy saw. It was a fast paced
edit showing the most exciting and incredible moments from episode I. How
cool! (He then conceded to me later that he is almost positive that the
Matrix guy will win, and he probably deserves it 'cause it would be great
for his career. After all, he pointed out, everyone EXPECTS big things
from Star Wars).
Burtt's favorite quote was "One man's noise is another man's symphony" He
then started a movie that he voiced over that demonstrated his own genius.
This was best exemplified when he showed a radio tower wire that he was
plucking in the Mojave Desert (circa 20-some years ago). When he placed
his wedding ring over it, it created one of the most important sounds in
Star Wars: the blaster.
Next he said that they had some problems with Liam Neeson and Ewan
McGregor on the set during the first lightsaber scene filmed, for both
insisted on going "shhhrrrmmm-vvvvv-svrmmm" while they were fighting. It
took them three or four takes before they could stop making sound effects
while they were filming. Actually, Burtt pointed out that the light-saber
sounds are actually coming from mic-feedback through a speaker.
Burtt continued by explaining his creative process when making a movie
(using Episode I as an example). First is the "pre-visualization process"
in which Burtt creates and films a mockup for a key scene. We were then
showed his PV for the podrace, starring his son as Anakin. It didn't look
like anything more than a low budget home movie, but it matched the real
thing scene for scene.
Next is the voice dubover process, where main characters get in the studio
and rerecord lines that were destroyed during the normal filming process
(either by poor voice inflection or drowned in background noise). This
apparently happened quite a bit with Jake Lloyd, and is one of the most
annoyingly difficult processes according to Burtt.
After this process is complete, the foley people go to work. Needless to
say, this is the area that Burtt advances most. The foley artist is the
person who adds the sounds to the "everyday" things in the movie. Among
the most interesting sounds from the Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies
Burtt was responsible for:
- The giant sea monster in TPM that chases the bongo was actually
Burtt's 3-month old daughter cooingslowed down quite a bit and with a
little base added.
- A baby black bear, which was extremely talkative, was used in
conjunction with a giant walrus from Sea World to create the language of
the wookies, especially Chewie.
- R2D2 is a combination of a synthesizer with Burtt himself making
beeping noises.
- A friend of Burtt called him up one day to tell him he had a
broken ceiling fan that was making the coolest noise. The noise in fact
was then used in TPM for the force fields where the final duel with
Qui-gon, Obi-wan and Darth Maul occurs.
- Liquid Nitrogen was spilled on the floor in the chemistry building
at SU to create sounds used in the podrace and lightsaber-cutting scenes,
- Sounds of walking through the snow as well as an echo sound from
the outer wall of the Carrier Dome in Syracuse were used in the Hoth
battle and various space scenes, respectively.
Burtt also explained that he thoroughly enjoys working with John Williams.
In general, Burtt likes to follow the equation of when an action occurs, a
cool sound effect is used to convey this, with the response to this action
playing in the music. They only disagreement that Burtt ever has with
Williams is when Williams places both the action and the reaction in his
music.
In an interesting side note, Burtt raised an interesting concern over
copyright when he went to see Galaxy Quest and said that he heard sounds
in the movie that HE recorded for Star Wars (of course he knew because he
remembers recording them!). He mentioned that this might be of concern in
the future.
As for Episode II, Burtt claims that he begins work in June on
previsualization and collecting sounds. He also says that he will be
doing most of the film editing for the next two movies (though Lucas will
always obviously have the final say).
This was an extraordinary event, and it was something that was incredibly
interesting. I hope that my fellow film geeks find this of interest.
Keep up the great work Harry, and don't take no crap from nobody.
Fogeddaboudit, some people should sleep with the fishes!!
Sincerely,
Corleone
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+ Expand All
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>fart<
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...but TPM was, for the most part, a flat, badly-edited piece of shit. Now, I realize Burrt didn't have a whole helluva lot to work with this time around, but the Pod Race scene, for example, was flat, dull, and horribly staged. At no point did I really give a damn about that stupid race. That's okay, though, because all of Burrt's previous great work easily cancels out the editing mess that was "Episode I". (Funny how, on that movie, Lucas dragged everyone involved down with him... Ben Burrt... John Williams... Liam Neeson...)
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A-hyuck.Didn't Burtt also make sounds for "Howard the Duck" and "Always"?Gee,I wonder if that explains why he was out of work for ten years.Just a thought.
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Okay, SOUND design. SOUND. Soundsoundsoundsoundsound. Jesus, I didn't even know what I was talking about this time. Don't ask me why, but I thought I read that Burrt was the EDITOR. SOUND DESIGN; EDITING, Daniel. Argh. Forget everything I just said - though there was a whole lot wrong with TPM, there was nothing wrong with the sound. My apologies to Mr. Burrt; he did fine work. Go ahead everyone; flame me. I've really got it coming. ("I DEMAND that you shoot me now!" - Daffy Duck)
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You also spelled "Burtt" with two r's instead of two t's.Flaming?Er...ok....ummm....you're stupid!How was that?
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The interminable pod race would have been a cool scene if it wasn't THREE LAPS LONG and they took out the anachronistic two-headed Nascar-style commentators. Oh yeah, and after how many spectacular collisions and crashes do we see the unmaimed pilot fluttering down softly to safety?
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My favourite sound effect. I have an old VHS copy of ET that I keep around, cued up to that scene.
It's like a punctured pig-cat-monkey moffok thing running from Lee Majors. -
Ben Burtt (along with Paul Martin Smith) EDITED "The Phantom Menace." Burtt ALSO served as Sound Designer and Supervising Sound Editor. But he WAS one of the film's EDITORS. So don't beat yourself up TOO much over this...
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Feb 27, 2000 5:52:52 PM CST
A few questions and points, some of them contradictory:
by alexandra dupont
(1) Is Burtt also responsible for that hilarious Eopie-farting noise that kicks off the pod race? And that badly-dubbed-Malaysian/Transylvanian-for-whom-English-is-a-second-language dialect for the Trade Federation? What a genius! (2) Actually, to contradict what I just wrote to a degree, (a) I actually DO think Burtt
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I thought this was a really cool report. I mean... we're always hearing about directors and writers and we never here much about the little guys like Burtt here, that really make the film watchable and coherent. Oh... two more things:
1 Whats up with the mysterious "title changes" on Moriarty's Gladiator review?
2 I watched "The Faculty" for the... like 3rd time last night, Only this time, I saw something new. I could be my imagination, but did Harry have a tiny cameo as a teacher. Probably not, since that picture in the corner is the only way I know what he looks like, but this guy in the movie had long red hair and a red beard. Can anyone confirm this??
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.... We were, as some of you may recall, treated to a plentitude of in-depth reports on his experiences on the set, actually....
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testing 1... 2... 3...
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Hee hee...Harry was in love with Salma Hayek.Good times.Y'know,maybe it's just me,but I think maybe them funny-lookin ufoes in da beginin ah dah mobee wern maybee nod tupossed tu b tawkin lieke dem Asiens ober en da Asieah.Dem were ahr-toh-fish-uh-lee maed rashuhl stae-ree-oh-tipes.A-hyuck!
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I am personally a sound guy, i love the stuff. I have worked in the theatre and when i have a great night it just gets me off. Anyways Ben Burtt is by far my idol in general. It is great to see that someone else can appreciate what he means for star wars and indy. I mean you just dont understand how important sound is until you dont have it. I am just rambling, sorry. Anyways he did edit tpm but i think some of it was good and i agree with alex in that the pod race was vintage. the finl battle sequence was good also. Even the most avid tpm haters cant honestly say that when ob1 did that flip and chopped maul in half they werent amazed. I love burtt and he is i think the best sound man of all time.
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My God!!!!! It lasted exactly 4.5 seconds! How many more months (years) do you idiots plan on complaining about that? The way people were talking about the fart, I was thinking an eopie would lumber up on the screen, sit his ass down on the camera, and let loose an unholy fart that lasted half the picture. But no, it was even off screen. All of you realize that wasn't the focal point of the movie right? Brundledan, once again proving he hasn't the slightest idea what's going on:
"Ben Burtt is the editor. I mean, sound editor, what was I thinking. I mean, he edits sound. What? He was an editor? Where am I? Did I mention Lucas raped my childhood?" Sigh. And yes Malkovich, even the most zealous anti-TPM bashers can and HAVE been left unfazed by Obi-Wan's super cool flip over Maul, and the subsequent slicing and dicing. Tragic, huh? -
Before I read the article, I want to say something that I first thought of when the Big Guy posted his Top 30 Movies of 1999 (or whatever he called it). How about an Episode I v.2 review? Knowles has done it before. Something along the lines of "1 Year Later". Now that the hype is gone, and the only lingering memories are the occasional Jar Jar Binks quips by lame-ass critics. Now, when you can take the first truly objective view of the film. Does the sight of Liam and Ewan slicing apart battle droids with maximum Jedi coolness make you go "Hell Yeah!"? Does the podrace feel repetitive and maybe a little disappointing for something that was a damn brilliant idea? I think it would be interesting to see a post-Event review.
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Ahss yoo NO, ahr blokkADD iz totahly LEEgal, an weed be HAHpee to welcome dah ambasADDors. Sihr! Dey ah een dey vayntilaytion shaft!
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Feb 27, 2000 8:03:59 PM CST
Must... resist... urge to respond to Orpheus post... and ...star
by alexandra dupont
I have just two things to say (and I say them with all due respect to your opinion and the fact that
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Feb 27, 2000 8:04:10 PM CST
And What's With the Ever-Changing Headline for Moriarty's Gladia
by the kid
Is it a fight between Knowles and the good doctor? Or is it just Harry?
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Now, I may not know what I'm talking about tonight, but let's get one thing perfectly clear, here and now, because I DO know this: Lucas did NOT rape my childhood. At least, not that I remember. Maybe the trauma is causing me to block it out. Well, even if he did, I never SAID that he did. That was some other guy.
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Feb 27, 2000 8:56:16 PM CST
The pod race was cool scene!! lucas a car buff was involved in a
by darthpsychotic
the safety belts(i.e. sebulba). episode I made $430 million domestically and what some may consider a big event/summer movie/bad star wars film, IT IS BETTER THAN NO STAR WAR FILM!! sure the teaser trailer alluded to something different. i, myself thought anakin skywalker would be just like the little boy in THE SHINING with his 'shining' power being the force(REDRUM!!), and we all thought samuel jackson and darth maul would have major roles in the film and were disappointed with their short screen time. episode I's teaser trailer is now THE text book example of how a trailer SHOULD NOT tease fans on movie's subject matter. in the end this is lucas's view on star wars on we should support him. episode I got a lot of people interested in the movies again and got them going to the movie multiplex. if episode I wasn't released we would have been psychologically assaulted with another over-hyped will smith movie or other effects drenched monstrousities such as: armageddon/deep impact/independance day, like we were the two previous summers. may be if george lucas was not getting all of this criticism, he would change his mind on EPISODES 7,8,9, and yes boys and girls, there are supposed to be 9 EPISODES even though now he says otherwise!!
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Not only is the fart joke stupid, but when R2 is burped away from the big fish on Dagobah, I cringe. I especially hate when Yoda acts like a baffoon when he meets Luke for the first time. That is undignified for a Jedi Master, totaly out of character. And the big worm in the asteroid is stolen from Dune...
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One day while Burnt was editing the Pod sequence George came in and asked him how the Opie cammel thing sounds. Burntt said "Like when you squeeze your bloated neck and the fart sound comes out George." George liked that comment so much that he made the thing fart in the movie, and that sound you hear in the film is actually George's bloated neck as the air is let out. I was supposed to keep this secret, but since we're not getting a Phantom Menace DVD this year, fuck it.
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The Kid, I like your idea about a before and after review. I wish Harry would do it. Especially since he seems to have rather ... ambivalent views on Episode One. Dupont, a full frontal nude scene for 4.5 seconds? Well, I guess that would depend on who was nude. If it was Jar Jar, well, I've seen the models of him before he was scanned into the computer, and he's about as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll, as Kevin Smith would say. So I probably wouldn't pay it much mind. If it was of say ... Ewan Macgregor, I would probably be scared for life. If it was of Natalie Portman, even six months after the fact, I would probably be in bed right now and dreaming about warm, sticky places. ANYWAY, I like how you made your point, actually. Redirect to Oswald. I don't agree with it naturally. I have a question. I've already wrote on here at length that the OT, much to TPM bashers dismay, was filled with such low brow humor, even though it's ignored, but I want to ask something else. Where does this elitist attitude toward such harmless little jokes come from? You say that the problem is not the duration, the problem is that there's A Fart Joke in a SW Film. Well ... um ... ever hear of that Shakespeare guy? As I seem to recall some of his plays seem to have the wacky peasants/servants engaging in some pretty low brow humor. Ever read any Chaucer? Remember in the Miller's Tale when that guy leaned his butt out the window and another guy kissed it? Isn't that "low brow" humor? Yet it's in one of the books that is a classic, that ironically made the English language respectable (as opposed to just Latin). Bottom line: Please get the fuck over it. As for Maul's bemused expression ... it was painfully obvious that Obi was putting the Force whammy on him. Sigh. I really can't explain that one again. It gets a bit stale after about the 100th time. Oh yeah, and Ben Burtt rules.
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Feb 27, 2000 9:46:03 PM CST
http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=5083 *the talkba
by darthpsychotic
this is a starwars board and you know how some at AICN feel about starwars/xmen bulletin boards!! i believe the above URL is the first time someone mentioned that lucas raped their childhood. if i am mistaken please correct me!! lucas the childhood raper, god save us.
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I think Harry and the doctor are having fun with each other. Check out my post under Moriarty's review if you want details.
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Nice comeback, actually. Allow me to counterargue. (1) You write:
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I was only doing sarcasm Phojus. And Alexandra, you should rethink what you said: ''Shakespeare included high and low humor in his work... Lucas, however, is not Shakespeare, and TPM never hits the Shakespearean artistic highs, in my opinion, that justify his diving to the artistic lows he does''. On the contrary, Shakespeare should not have included low humor in his writings since he wrote such great human tragedies, not a kid's movie...
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Feb 27, 2000 11:28:39 PM CST
Small correction to way-too-long counter-rant above....
by alexandra dupont
I meant to write: "...much like Chewbacca doing a Tarzan yell in ROTJ DE-suspended my disbelief." Dear God, I just about died the first time I realized that was what I was hearing. Imagine if Tolkien had put a McDonald's drive-through in Helm's Deep.
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Corleone's article was a fun read and, coupled with Harry's boating experience post, have brought a breath of fresh air to both AICN and Talk Back. Until...***Alexandra, when I was reading your latest post, I thought I heard "God Bless America" playing towards the end! You made me want to stand up and cheer. Why SHOULD we "get the f*ck over it?!" I'm really sick of hearing that.***I'm bored, anyone for a game of cards?
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Wow, and there were none of those telltale signs of the force, i.e., hand wavings. Man, too bad the Master Qui Gon didn't think of that...he could have "force whammied" Darth Maul back on Tatooine and saved Lucas the trouble of wasting audience's time with the second interminable hour, or at the very least, his own life. But of course we enter a philosophical quandary about the nature of good/evil as it is presented in Star Wars. Why, indeed, did Darth Maul posit the alleged "force whammy" in the first place? Being innately evil, it seems he would have though of this first, as it seems like a cheap shot to pull. Of course, this implies a moral contradiction, and how ethical it is to use "force whammies" during a light sabre battle. Should the judicial body of the Jedi, the Jedi Council be obligated to enforce a legal standard during unsupervised, non-union bouts with Siths? So many questions...
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Ahh, Alexandra, the nail you hit over the head was the size of a railroad spike. Amen and God bless. (And now that it is February 28 and my "off day" is over, I now once again officially know what I'm talking about. And because of that, I can say with full confidence that Ben Burtt had damn well do a better job writing and directing the NEXT "Star Wars" than he did playing Anakin in this one.)
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First point I'd like to make: Thanks A. DuPont for making light of the Chewie "Tarzan" yell in ROTJ. I agree with some of the TMP criticisms, but I feel the crimes in ROTJ far outweighted those in TPM. Fart and shit jokes: lame, but forgettable. The two-headed podrace announcer would have bugged me more if I wasn't laughing so hard at "That's GOTTA hurt." Because that line doesn't specifically reference pop-culture, I'd hesitate to call it a pop-culture reference. Make sense? Although it may seem too 90's, it's not any more anachronistic than Threepio saying "How rude!" in Empire or Jar Jar saying same line in Episode One. Perhaps Jedi may not have had as many obviously awkward lines, but on the whole, it's hard to defend it as a better film than Phantom Menace. Really. I find it a little Fangirlish of A.D.P. to cite only the Podrace and Lightsabre battle as the two good parts that showed "imagination". Theoretically, the Podrace was based on old racing footage, and we've seen lightsabre fights before. I thought the underwater city and the Galactic Senate (or all or Coruscant) were better strokes of imagination. Why would you choose the two action sequences? I think that shows that many were not prepared for the slower, expository-based film that TPM was. I had fun. Sorry you didn't.
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Alexandra, You are just amazing. Your arguments are the most complete, OBJECTIVE writings I have seen in an AICN talk back.
As for Wonders, One of the most important things William Shakespeare ever did, was to acknowledge his audience! Often, the play or plays presented on a given evening (late afternoon actually) would not be decided until he could size up the audience. Lucas knows his core audience. And he failed to satisify them, not because of a failure to creat art, but because he sold out and went for the dollars instead. He chose to ignore his audience. I say fine! It's his franchise and he can do as he pleases. My loyalty to his franchise is diminished because he CHOSE to make a flawed film. I would absolutely love every frame of TPM if I knew it was his honest best attempt at making a great movie. But I know that he sold out to the marketing potential of 3 inch figurines. -
Yes you heard me right! I'm also from Syracuse. I met him personally, even though I'm Deaf! (I know, Harry, I bet you were surprised that no one here never mentioned that they were DEAF and still hit your website?) he was a nice guy, he didn't even have that california attitude none whatsoever. He took TWO pics with me ! one is with a Darth Vader cutout and he joked that David Prowse was over 7' feet tall ! and he took another one with a Stormtrooper cut I would have posted the pics if Harry programmed this board to show the pics oh well you all say Lucas Raped your childhood now now you'll claim I raped your adulthood because Burtt is a Academy Award Winner also a nominee for TPM because I shook hands with the guy ! goes to show you that you all would shut up if you had 10 minutes with anyone that made/makes these SW films geez...
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ok ----- but i'm still looking forward to episode 2!
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Wow, I almost passed this article by, wondering, who the hell is Ben Burtt? Glad I didn't. Y'know, to this day, when someone throws a haymaker in a movie and there's a really resounding "crack" on the jaw, I always think of it as an "Indiana Jones" punch. Burtt, genius that he is, hit upon the perfect freakin' sound for hyperbolic pulp-action fisticuffs. Oh yeah, and his other work is pretty impressive too. Again, great story. Loved the anecdotes.
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I've never followed the Phantom Menace Talkbacks, largely because they're so damn long and because opinions are so dogmatic. That said, I pretty much agree with everything Alexandra DuPont has said here, and I have one thing to add on the topic of the pod race. Personally, I found the pod race...occasionally exciting...but not very meaningful dramatically, especially the method by which Anakin wins. If I recall, his racer starts to lose power when the bad guy alien sabotages it, then with a few flipped switches, Anakin gets it back on track and wins the race. Not the best way to convince the audience of his abilities, I think, or create drama. A friend of mine had a suggestion that I think would've offered a far more interesting outcome. His notion: during the final stretch, Anakin's pod racer begins to lose power due to the bad guy's sabotage. Anakin checks some readouts - the damage is *irreparable*. He gets angry, I mean really pissed 'cause so much is riding on this race, and suddenly the power of the Force surges within him. His pod racer launches forward at amazing speeds, unconsciously guided by his innate abilities and anger. And so he wins, blazing past the bad guy and leaving him scratching his head as to how he did it. This would've been a good showcase of Anakin's natural affinity for the Force, and, because it was triggered by his anger, would've provided a nice hint of the dark path his life will one day take. I really like the idea, and think it would've provided a far more meaningful conclusion to the race. Has this suggestion already been made elsewhere? Comments anyone?
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Ok- TPM was pretty rough and mixed up in a lot of ways (although I think it's an enjoyable romp) --- but just imagine if Episode 2 learned from the mistakes of Ep1. For a start - there'll be no Jake Lloyd (no offense jake) with childish unemotive lines we'll have a much more serious tone developing. The actors will have more of an idea of what the finished product is gonna be like - Ewan and Natalie for example will probably be more comfortable in their roles and the blue screens. Let's hope so - then TPM can be rembered as the enjoyable but flawed start to the series - just look at the first three movies - they are all completely different in their style (of course there are the key elements that combine them together). Just recently looking at reviews for ROTJ on "Rotton Tomatoes" - they were awful, much worse than the reviews for "TPM" even Empire had pretty bad reviews (and good too) - I guess this means that people shouldn't take that much notice of the reviews and make up their own minds ------>>>
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Cormorant - yes, i believe that would have been a better approach - it's true that there didn't seem to be anything special about Anakin in Ep.1 apart from his inate capacity to annoy - maybe the idea is that anakin has not the capacity to truly channel the force yet - that will be Obi-Wan's job in the coming movies. God I sound like such a geek!
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Sheesh. You people never cease to amaze, bewilder and dumbfound those of us with actual brains between our ears. Have any of you actually watched the first three Star Wars films? I mean actually WATCHED them? If so, then WHAT in TPM was a surprise to you? TPM follows the spirit, the juvenile theme, the low and high, just like the first three films. Be honest with yourselves and you'll get along in life much, much easier. Me? I expected what I got, a really entertaining, flashy piece of fluff. I forget WHO brought it up about Anakin not being able to fly, but do you remember Luke destroying the ultimate weapon...WITHOUT US EVER SEEING HIM DO ANYTHING!?!? After just ONE lesson?? Is it just me, or is this starting to look like a theme? TPM was NOT perfect, no one in their right mind could argue that, but it isn't supposed to be art....it's entertainment. Pure and simple. Get a life.
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Feb 28, 2000 4:56:31 AM CST
TPM is more on the level of Jedi (but lesser)...and another thin
by gsolo
My lovely mother asked me recently if I would like the Episode 1 on VHS. I'm 27 and I felt like a kid again. Damn, I love her. But I had to say no. I don't do 8-tracks...I mean VHS anymore. Not only that, but I'd rather wait and see if Lucas will trim up and modify that movie before I think about owning it. It gonna be even less rewarding on video.
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When we say the TPM-haters should get over it, we don't mean you have to enjoy the movie (some problems are incurable). What we want is for you to quit whining about a movie that came out almost a year ago! Get on with whatever lives you have. At least we won't have you losers taking up valuable seats for Episodes II and III.
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Couldn't agree more re: pod race ending, Cormorant. While it's of course easy for us to revise what's already in place, it's also fun, and I always had a few suggestions along those lines myself. WHAT IF: (1) ...the Trade Federation guys had been Hutts -- led by a young, thin Jabba who's exiled to Tattooine at the end for his failure? (2) ...Darth Maul had been with the Trade Federation from the beginning as a sort of emissary for Sidious? (3) ...the Jedi ambassadors sent to negotiate had numbered four -- so Maul could have killed a couple right off and established narrative tension? (4) ...C-3PO had been the protocol droid serving the Jedi drinks -- and had been taken with the fleeing Jedi during their escape? (5) ... Qui-Gon had fled to Tattooine because he said he "knew someone there" -- and that someone was Shmi Skywalker, and Qui-Gon was in fact Anakin's father? (6) ... Qui-Gon had insisted as he was dying that Obi-Wan keep this relationship a secret -- sowing the seeds of resentment for later? (7) ...Anakin had been 12 years old a la Jesus in the marketplace, and a lot more cocky and show-offy and flirty with the Queen a la Han Solo? (8) ...I just shut up now? Anyway, good suggestion, Conmorant.
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...This is exactly what I was talking about the other day. Every chance you get...sigh...Well, once again, I'll just say for the record, I loved the film without reservation. I'll go ahead and make the prediction that after some time has passed and you bashers see how it fits into Lucas' vision for the series, you'll come around, too.
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I have compiled a definitive list of supporting arguments to prove why the Phantom Menace screenplay is a solid, intricate storyline and a literary masterpiece with eloquently worded dialogue, which captures the true essence and emotional context of the more subtle undertones of the film. Here it goes:
1. "Yippee!" - Anakin Skywalker. 2. "Ah yoo brane ded?" - Trade Federation Nemeuroidian. 3. "Roger, roger!" - Battle droid. 4. "Yippee!" - Anakin Skywalker. 5. "Meesa Jar Jar Binks!" - Jar Jar Binks. 6. "Yippee!" - Anakin Skywalker. 7. "I'm a PERSON and my NAME is ANAKIN!" - Anakin Skywalker. 8. "Yippee!" - Anakin Skywalker. 9. "You must contact me!" - Constipated Naboo elder. 10. "YIPPEE!!!" - Anakin Skywalker. -
The Collective Ass hath decided Return of the Jedi is rubbish. Return of the Jedi kicks the living crap out of TPM. The end battles in jedi kick the crap out of TPM despite the nice choreography of saber duel. The Collective Ass does not acknowledge every line from emperor ruled, space battle ruled. star destroyers ruled. tie fighters ruled. ewoks died, gungans ran away and lived through hails of laser-fire. The Collective Ass cant put its finger on it, but TPM just made you feel kinda silly. TPM still fun though. Title for episode 2? ........Star Wars Episode 2: The Emperor Farts Twice
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Why, in TMP, is the force shrugged off as a bunch of microbes? From what I understood in the first three SW movies, the force is something along the lines of a cross between spirituality and telekenisis. Did the writers think people today wouldn't understand that and went for the sorta scientific, "I'll explain it to you as if you were stoooopid" explaination in TPM? Did they think people wouldn't understand that an experienced Jedi Knight would be able to tell if someone is strong in the ways of the force? And if he's so strong in the ways of the force, then why does he act like an obnoxious brat?
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So far, I don't think of the original SW movies and these new episodes as connected. It's almost as if some fanboys got together and made their own high-budget set of movies. Although, I have a feeling fanboys would do a better job with the storylines.
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it seems lucas has raped a lot of childhoods on this board. i'm shocked the menedez brothers didn't use this defense after they killed their parents.
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...to get drawn into yet another pointless Star Wars debate on talkback, because no one is going to change their mind just yet. However, I feel the need to respond to Eternal, if for no other reason than it gives me something to keep me from falling asleep at my desk. I will concede something to all of you naysayers. The Phantom Menace does not stand on its own as well as A New Hope. However, it is not meant to. Nor is The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi. TPM is the first chapter in a series (note the use of the phrase EPISODE I in all the publicity materials for the film). By the same token, if we were to watch ESB or ROTJ by themselves, we would be pretty lost. TPM leaves a lot of questions unanswered: What did Sidious hope to gain on the planet Naboo? Yes, it was a political power play, but there was something else, too. Why had the Sith been in hiding for so long? Why didn't Qui-Gon disappear? What will become of Anakin Skywalker under Obi-Wan's care? What will happen to Shmi on Tatooine?...I see a lot of harping on the "weak" dialogue in TPM. Gang, this isn't The Godfather. It's a serial. "Toshi Station..." "...You should have seen us in the passage, kid. She revealed her true feelings for me..." "My son is here. I have felt him..." None of the films are without need of a little dialogue tweaking. Does this taint my love for any of them? Absolutely not. Part of the charm is the sometimes corny dialogue... I see complaints all the time about the Midi-Chlorians. On this point, I just have to say, accept the fact that you didn't know as much about the Force as you thought you did. Why are some strong in the Force and others weak? This is the reason. The Force is strong within families, passed on from generation to generation. It is hereditary, and therefore has its roots in a physiological trait. Remember, the Midi-Chlorians are not the Force, but they allow beings to sense it....Poop and fart jokes. Honestly, folks, the low humor has been around, too. The Sarlaac belches after it swallows Boba Fett, and the "incredible smell you discovered" wasn't cardboard...Jar Jar Binks. Well, he's the real controversy, isn't he? I dare say that if Jar Jar's personality had been toned down a bit, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. But, I didn't dislike Jar Jar. In fact, he made me laugh out loud at several points in the film. I would have liked to have seen a bit more maturity on his part during the battle at the end, but I have to trust that he will serve a purpose in the following two films. Threepio was kinda irritating at first, too, but he grew on me....Years from now, when future generations are able to watch all six films back to back, and in order from I-VI, they will view them differently than we do now. They will be slowly brought onboard to the power of the Force and the role of the Jedi. The story will unfold for them like a novel, revealing a little information at a time. For us, however, we will compare the new films with the old, as we are apt to do with sequels/prequels. For me, TPM gave me everything I hoped it would: New information about the power of the Jedi, a glimpse into how the Old Republic functioned, the beginning of Darth Vader's story, and some terrific action sequences. In these ways, it compares very favorably to the original trilogy.
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Granted Jar Jar had some terrible lines, but Jedi's low points were much lower (even before the Special Edition's Dance Number was put in). Who was the moron who designed Max Rebo and his band? You're honestly telling me the assortment of retards at Jabba's Palace is any better than the Pod Racers? Ha! What about Salacious Crump (sp)? That thing snuck over from the fucking Muppet Movie set!! It was totally annoying, and ruined the whole first segment of the film! The Ewoks ruined the rest of it. Jake Lloyd wasn't nearly as bad as Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher in Jedi, who supposedly ALREADY KNOW how to act. And if you're going to make fun of TPM's space battle, you think the Endor "Sticks and Stones defeat laser cannons and rifles" crap was some masterstroke of imagination? You can criticize Phantom Menace all you want, but please don't be blinded to the glaring quality problems with ROTJ. You lessen your own arguments by doing so. The Emperor stuff was good, but unfortunately that takes up only about 20% of the film. I think TPM's problems were scattered throughout the film, but there were more moments of coolness throughout as compared to Jedi's cool Emperor scenes. Also, the Pod Race may have been anticlimactic, but take another look at the Skiff Battle where Luke, Chewie, a blind Han and Lando get away from all these guys. That's believable. And as for Darth Maul just standing there when Obi Wan flips over him, how about when Luke jumps off the plank and catches the lightsabre in midair, then slices and dices. Not any more realistic. Try criticizing with equal fairness, guys.
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TheForce.Net posted a story a while back about a certain scream that Burtt used in almost every film he's made, and it seems to predate him as well. It's used in Indy, Batman, Toy Story, SW 1,4,5,6 and the Holiday Special. http://theforce.net/cgi-bin/tfn.cgi?storyID=5312
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Feb 28, 2000 11:28:47 AM CST
Midichlorians were the crude way Lucas found to put in religious
by niiiice
You know, the whole not-so-subtle Christ allusion, the birth of Anakin. Which of course begs the question, what's the point of putting in symbolism if it serves no point in a greater context? I kept asking myself that. Notice that the midichlorians are only mentioned within reference to Anakin and particularly his birth. "It is even possible that he was constructed by the midichlorians" or something to that effect. Lucas is obviously struggling to define his own mythology, whereas for the first three films (original trilogy) he drew upon everything from King Arthur to the Hidden Fortress to create his world. Now maybe this is because of my own flawed interpretation, but I interpreted the "force" to be related to strength of character and will. Finding out you have to be genetically predisposed to be "strong" in the force is pretty anti-thematic. Kind of rules out free will, doesn't it? And this also goes against the original trilogy, the whole "the future is cloudy" thing. I'm willing to bet we never hear about midichlorians again, it was simply something Lucas put in to make the virgin birth more "buyable" to audiences.
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Feb 28, 2000 11:45:02 AM CST
Funny I thought that this talk back was related to sound effects
by wheel99
No matter what they put in the article folks here just seem to take having the word star and wars mentioned anywhere in the article makes it a bash/praise Phantom Menace rant. Boring!!!!!! P.S. I still like Jar-Jar
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Its easy to make fun of all of this shit. To compare silliness in jedi and TPM is futile, bottom line, how did you FEEL when watching these movies, nitpick all you want about certain aspects of jedi, but it still felt like some serious shit was going on,(despite some of its shortcomings) TPM felt kinda silly. if we all really want to, and boy oh boy we do, we can easily make fun of everything with all 4 of these movies cause its fantasy. I dont hate TPM, and i still enjoyed it, but it was sub-par from yes even jedi. i love jedi, yeah the ewoks were too cute, but man, the emperor, the space battle, at st's in the forest, speeder bikes, vader, the throne room, fucking kick ass, i know it had too many muppets, but the overall tone of the movie was still serious and it was filled with all the good star wars "stuff." The ending battle for TPM was a horror show in that their was no horror to it. it was a cartoon with jarjar flailing around. we didnt need comic relief in the battle to save a planet. and all you people that actaully laughed at jar jar, that was funny? i love good humor, i love to laugh, jar jar sucked not because he was TRYING to be funny, he sucked cause the cliched preschool bullshit WAS JUST NOT FUNNY. what a waste of those cool battle tanks. the space battle just...didnt do it...anakin, oops, i destroyed the control ship, ugh, why not have him actually destroy it cause hes gifted in the force and piloting? RipReaver will defend Jedi, I never heard star wars fans bash it til some pricks on the internet decided the movie wasnt citizen kane a couple years ago, and now it "sucks" to everyone. hogwash....Overall, things we used to nitpick that never destroyed the enjoyement of the movie became enough reason to destroy the movie somehwere along the line.....TPM right out of the gate had enough bullshit in it to destroy the movie for alot.....If you take my posts to seriously your head will self destruct in five seconds. Stay tuned for the next installment of the "Collective Ass" peace my sarcastic bastard self involved talkback brothers (man there is just nothing quite like star wars talkbacks. what a great thing to argue about)
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I know I'm a bit late in joining the discussion, but I thought I'd drop my 2 cents into the bucket nonetheless. Here we go: 1) First off, let's totally do away with the Nemoidians. They aren't interesting villains, their dialogue is unintelligible, and (worst of all) they look FAKE. 2) How about making Jar-Jar more of a warrior type than the foolish buffoon he is? He could be a strong, single-minded warrior who went against the Gungan grain a few too many times, resulting in his banishment. That would have given his relationship with Qui-Gon more resonance, as he is much the same way with the Jedi Council. You could still use him for comedy, just not in-your-face bulb-horn and pratfall comedy. The end battle scene could have shown him kicking ass instead of making an ass of himself. 3) Make Anakin older! His being a kid makes no sense. Lucas said the only reason he did it was to make the scene where he leaves home more powerful. HELLO? Didn't he see the first "Superman"? When Clark leaves home, it's a powerful, emotional moment. He knows he has to go and face his destiny, but he has his reservations at well. And he's 18! Lucas making Anakin 9 is a cop-out and reveals some limitations as a writer. 5) The Pod race is awesome, but that TWO-HEADED ANNOUNCER SUCKS ASS! How Jar-Jar gets burned at that stupid-ass character avoided the barrage is beyond me. Everything about him disgusts me. From his cheesy "sportscaster" voice, to his faggoty be-bopping when Anakin wins the race just smacks of a "Star Wars" knockoff rather than the real thing. More than anything in TPM, I hate this character. 4) Make Maul a more powerful enemy. The "hired-gun" angle doesn't play. While the last duel IS a knockout, we have very little invested in it, because...THERE'S NO REASON FOR IT! Maul's mission was to capture the queen and force her to sign the treaty. When he runs into the queen in the Theed hanger...HE STANDS THERE and lets her go! If he had even made a subtle move for the queen, and then was blocked by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, I could have bought it. Instead he just stands there, as if thinking "Hell with my orders, I've got some dueling to do!!! 5) Take out that Scooby-Doo ending with the Nemoidians in cuffs and Panaka's sass-talking. ("You can kiss your franchise goodbye!"). It's cheesy and dumb. Overall, TPM is a great flick. There's just some things that need tweaking. Sorry I rambled.
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Blue elephants are pretty farking ridiculous, even pink ones in disney movies....
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I was just reading the posts and I have discovered that lots of you have complaints about the eopie fart scene as being ...not star wars. Well gang,I was a 7 year old kid when I laughed out loud at Han Solo kicking chewie in the ass after Yelling "I don't care what you smell." outside the trash compactor. I was a bit older but I still remember laughing at a space frog belching after it ate a smaller space creature outside Jabbas palace. POINT. Star Wars has always interjected small little humorous clips. They are part of what makes up Star Wars.
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Remember when Obi-Wan told Luke that his father was one of the greatest star piolts in the galaxy when he met him. I think Anikin flying a pod racer, flying a starfighter, and blowing up a battleshipmakes that point. And to all those who say thje movie's juvinille or lame or we had our childhoods raped... I loved Star Wars since I can remember in fact the first thing i remember watching on tv was the holiday special. Every movie has some "lowbrow humor" in it. To say the Nemidians are a racist sterotype is wrong. To say the same thing about jar Jar is wrong. Why? Because not evry single alien race has to sound like a human. You didnt hear anyone saying that all the bad guys in the first films all spoke in British accents or the mostr evil character was played by a white man but the voice was dubbed ny a black man whose character dressed all in black now do you. No What happened in May was alot of fans seeing a movie in theeir head for 16 years and seeing something they didnt want. They had their own idea and didnt like it when they saw something they wrent expecting
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I have a theory about the oft-mentioned "Anakin blows up the ship by accident" sequence: What appeared to be an accident to young Anakin was not an accident at all, but the Force working through him, guiding him when to fire his blaster cannons. To Anakin, so young and inexperienced in the ways of the Force, there is no difference between this and an accident. He is so strong with The Force, he doesn't even know he is using it. Just my thought on that matter...As for the whole virgin birth thing that was brought up before: Although Christ is the most well known of the virgin birth myths, there are several myths wherein the main characters are born of virgins, or of extraordinary circumstances. Mithra is one which springs to mind immediately. The point is that Lucas continues to draw on classic mythology of many different origins in the construction of the films...Eternal, I'm glad to hear you say you are a fan, and I don't doubt that you are. It's just hard for someone like myself, who found so much to love in TPM to accept that other lifelong fans didn't. The debate continues...
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Another Darth idiot!! How original!! What's up with the word "faggoty" being used in a negative context to describe the announcer? You're just an example of another wannabe macho fanboy trying to prove his manhood by tossing around these words. You're fucking scum, and you're in denial you jerk: You know if Boba Fett walked into your room, you would submit to a serious butt ramming, so quit pretending. And another thing, TPM RULES, AND IF ANYONE THINKS THAT JAR JAR BEING GAY IS A BAD THING THEN YOU CAN KISS MY WAXED ASS AND MY SMOOTH NUTS YOU INSECURE ASSHOLES!!!
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...but that seemingly needs to be put forth over and over again. What sets a TPM critic apart from a TPM fan? Well, a TPM critic generally CRITICIZES THE MOVIE. Some hate it more than others. Some get downright angry when discussing it (I often do). But regardless, most TPM critics confine their attacks to the MOVIE ITSELF. TPM fans, on the other hand, to whom "Episode I" was the movie to end all movies, tend to respond to anti-TPM arguments not by countering with a pro-TPM rebuttal, but by TEARING APART THE CRITICS ON A PERSONAL LEVEL. For the most part, their arguments as to WHY TPM was so great are limited to "It's 'Star Wars'!" and "Lucas owns the trilogy and can do whatever he wants and we have no right at all to complain so shut your candy-ass whining and get in line for 'Episode II' as we TRUE fans of 'Star Wars' know you're going to do anyway YOU FUCKING PRICK." And yes, I AM talking to you, Montag. I usually don't name names, but you've been a real standout over the months in that your only purpose in TalkBack has been to flame, flame, and flame some more. Your name is far more appropriate than you probably realize. Do you have ANYTHING else to talk about beyond petty, angry attacks on fellow TalkBackers? The reasonable TPM fans are out there, of course. There's tons of 'em out there. They're fun to debate because they put forth intelligent, reasoned arguments. But a review of almost every TPM-related TalkBack shows that, at least around here, they are vastly outnumbered by the spiteful, vitriolic assholes. It's completely ridiculous. If I wanted to hear this kind of thing I'd go over to TheForce.net.
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I love how you stated your appreciation for logical points, then contradicted yourself by going off on an unsubstantiated rant against the naysayers, which 1) destroyed your credibility by showing you obvious bias and 2) generally made you appear foolish. Basically you're just saying "you guys are right, so since I can't really argue logically, I think I'll take it to a more personal level because the internet gives me balls." Next time, a simple "I am unable to come up with reasonable arguments" will suffice.
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First off, Rip Reaver asks that we go on how we "feel" when watching the films. Well, that's find of hard because I was 11 when ROTJ came out. Quite a difference from 27. RR said "yeah the ewoks were too cute, but man, the emperor, the space battle, at st's in the forest, speeder bikes, vader, the throne room, fucking kick ass" Unfortunately, The Emperor/Throne Room/Vader is all from the same part of the film. And the presense of AT-ST's doesn't matter if they're used to lame effect (like being crushed by two logs). *** Eternal, thanks for acknowledging ROTJ's shortcomings. But you claim the stupidity doesn't run rampand throughout the film as it does in TPM. I think it does run throughout the entire Endor part of the film after they meet the Ewoks. It also happens to be the parts where Ford & Fisher's horrendous sleepwalking is inthe forefront. Once Luke goes to Vader the Endor stuff is TOTAL GARBAGE. Like Han throwing a backpack or something and that guy goes flying backwards over the railing? What the HELL is that?! ** As for SSZero's remarks about the Jar Jar humor not "fitting into the plot", exactly what the hell is Threepio blathering about over the course of THREE FILMS? I don't hate him or the original trilogy, but the annoying sidekick element was there, and not always to serve the plot of Eps IV-VI. Jar Jar was more annoying, but his funny lines/actions were funnier than anything ever by Threepio. ** No one has admitted that the slapstick forest battle in ROTJ isn't any better than the Gungan battle in TPM. What's the difference between Jar Jar swinging from a tank's turret or Ewoks knocking over clumsy Stormtroopers with boulders? They were equally poor compared to the snow battle from Empire.
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I rest my case, Montag, since you're doing such a good job of making my point for me. Again, though: Lucas DID NOT rape my childhood. Judging from your attitude, though, I'm wondering whether somebody did something unspeakable to you during yours.
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I'm sorry but i've needed to say this for a while. I'm tired of reading all of the Phantom Menace hate mail. For almost every single criticism or complaint about the movie here is my question;
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FIRST THREE?
Im sorry I love them all, but none, with the exception of the special effects, are works of cinematic genius. The originals have become so legendary that the fact that they're not that great of movies is ignored. In fact the mistakes "Carrie!", and there are many, are now celebrated as part of the legend.
Bottom line is, all of you will be waiting in line with me for opening night tickets to the next one. So Quit crying and enjoy, as the legend continues. -
One problem that I had with TPM was that everything just kinda "happened" to Anakin. He won the pod race, but you really never know exactly why. Toward the end,he just happened to end up in a fighter, happened to fly out to the battle, happened to accidently blow up the space ship (I personally think R2 sent the fighter out into battle). The boy comes across as being damn lucky, and it kinda bothers me. I want to see a hero save the day using his wits, skills, and determination. Not by saying "oops" a lot and complaining about not knowing how to drive this ship. Luke had to work hard to acquire his skills as a jedi. Seeing everything fall into Ani's lap is kinda like seeing some rich frat boy pick up his new Porsche over spring break. It's quite depressing and certainly does not make for a hero that is worth making an emotional investment in.
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The floodgates have opened...yes indeed....Maybe all the debate about writing ability and dialogue and story, editing etc etc., are all inconsequential, maybe its something very simple, like George's children being on the set ruined the movie. "Dad, PLEASE make jar jar do something silly again! PLEASE!!!" oh alright... "Dad, make a really big fish come out YEAH! then make another even BIGGER fish eat that one! then have ANOTHER one come out, then have the first one eat that one again HEHEHEHEHE YEAH DADDY!" "OOH, daddy, stop touching me there HEHEHE!!" giggles all around TPM set as the lucasfilm team works on, silently horrified at whats going on, but in quiet acquiesence for fear of losing their jobs.....
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Gary Rydstrom is da MAN! Sorry; I know Ben created sound design as we all know and love it today, but Gary is the man who perfected it and took it to a higher level. T2, Titanic, True Lies, A Bug's Life. . . uh. . . other things. He's the bomb-diggity. Lightstormer OUT.
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Gravy Boat Captain, one of the problems of TPM is that it broke one of the cardinal rules of storytelling: The hero must DRIVE the action, not be driven BY it. In order to be a believable, likable hero, he has to MAKE things happen rather than simply be tossed along helplessly by luck and chance. In Anakin's case, he failed to be a primary driver of the action when it was MOST important for him to do so: in the Droid Control Ship battle. He won the day out of sheer, unbelievable luck. Contrast this with Luke in the original "Star Wars", who destroyed the Death Star through sheer SKILL, both in his own piloting/targeting abilities and in the Force. Lucas painted himself into a corner when he made Anakin nine years old: he needed Anakin to be the hero at the end, but by making him a small boy he destroyed the credulity of him being able to DO the kinds of things that 19 year-old Luke did. Hence, Anakin's victory as a result of extreme, coincidental happenstance. It just doesn't work at all.
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I agree with your thought that the character should drive (not be driven by) the action, but to me it was clear that Qui-Gon was the main character of TPM, not Anakin. It's hard to deny that Qui-Gon was "steering" the plot from the beginning. That's why Anakin doesn't show up until 1/3 into the movie. It's to show he's part of a larger universe, that things did happen before he came onto the scene. *** As for Anakin "accidentally" doing everything, after seeing the film a couple times, it appeared to me that Anakin TOTALLY meant to take that ship out into the battle. Remember when he was on the Queen's ship, guessing what the controls were when talking with Captain Ric Olie? Ric's like "You catch on quick." This, combined with his Podracing skills, point to him knowing full well what he was doing when he pulled that fighter out of the hangar. He was saying stuff like "Uhh...let's try this button..." so he wouldn't get in trouble with Artoo (who as far as he knows could relay to the others what Anakin did) or the other pilots who could have been listening. The kid is supposed to be smarter than he appears. Whether or not he meant to blow up the reactor is kind of hard to tell from the scene. Just because he says "Oops" doesn't mean he wasn't trying to hit anything, it means he might have just created a situation he couldn't get away from in time. Did Anakin know the plan to blow up the reactor inside the ship? Probably not. But why does his "accidental" shot ruin the sequence. Is he supposed to do the EXACT same thing that Luke does at the end of Star Wars? That would be retarded. Then everyone would complain the scenes were the same. I think Lucas had a good idea: Anakin, against Qui-Gon's wishes, goes meddling where he shouldn't, tries to fly the fighter and join in on the battle. The damage to his ship leads him to seek a safe haven, so he skillfully manuevers into the control ship. What more do you want from the kid? Is he supposed to mow down an army of ship's technicians? I don't think it would have been appropriate to having him maliciously (although it is war) picking off specific targets. He wasn't part of the plan so he doesn't know he's taking out the main objective. What's wrong with a happy accident. The editing and cross-cutting could have had better rhythm, I'll concede that. But I don't have a problem with Anakin's actions over the course of the film.
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The original trilogy was great entertainment that had one key that TPM seemed to lack in most areas: respect for the audience. The OT didn't insult our intelligence. I saw ANH when I was 3 or so in '77, and I didn't need fart jokes or three stooges style battles. The fact that it seemed like a believable universe and that the fun in it was that this universe took itself seriously was all that was needed.
There is a definited change to this way of movie making in TPM (and you can also see a bit of it in ROTJ). The audience isn't respected, and our intelligences are insulted. I'd say about 80% of TPM insults the audience. Instead of having a universe that takes itself seriously with subtle wackiness, we are flooded with childish sesame street humor that really doesn't need to be in here to attract the kids. I mean,weren't most of us kids when ANH came out? We didn't need farts and big bird jumping around on tatooine to make us buy the toys and see the movies.
If the original trilogies were 'for the kids' , then why are ANH and TPM such different movies on terms of humor? Does Lucas feel that kids nowadays are so dumbed down that they need low brow pranks to grab their attentions?
I can't think of anything in ANH that was blatantly 'childish'. The plots and situations might be corny, but the star wars universe doesn't take it that way, it's as serious as a heart attack.
There are redeeming factors in TPM: The final lightsaber duel, a bit of the podrace, the jedi ambush at the beginning, and the coruscant senate scenes.
Here's to hoping Episode II gets back on track.
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Oh, so now Shakespeare "sold out." I guess that's how far Bashers have to go to get to Lucas. You know, I'm not even going to reply here until I get some new criticisms. Why do you people jsut keep going over the same thing over and over and over again? Midis aren't the Force, blah, blah, blah. "Nothing happens by accident." Wouldn't it be cool if Anakin used super force speed to shoot foward in the podrace!?!KFJK SHUT UP!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!! What the LIVING FUCK Is the Point of Rewriting the Movie! "Well, it could have been this way, it could have been that way." Yeah, it could have been. The seeker ball didn't have to shoot Luke in the butt in ANH. Did that dramatically "move the plot?" Why did TPM have such juvenile dialogue whereas ESB had High Quality Lyricism like "Laugh it up Fuzzball!" and "I don't know where you get your delusions LaserBrain." I mean, the only difference between LaserBrain and BrainDead is that the last is part of a film that you love to criticize. Why aren't you criticzing Kasdan's crappy writing? I'm beginning to think Bashers are literally stark raving mad. TPM rocked! And for what it's worth, SW will be the great Shakesperean saga of our day. Including Jar Jar. That must eat you alive. "Why can't he be a cool warrior?" Because the saga is full of "cool warriors." The fool is everybit the mythic archetype that the "cool warriors" are, or have we forgotten that? "Lucas sold out! He should have made Anakin a badass eighteen year old!" Please. Making a nine year old the hero of this movie was a stroke of genius. As well as making him cherub-like. I could bring in some mythic precedences here, but what would be the point? They would just be ignored.
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Wow. I thought some people had a job to do during the day. Those talkbacks get pretty long pretty fast. Anyway, we're now down to talking about the appropriate use of farts, burps and kicks in the ass. Next, it will be about the angles used to shoot these scenes, the lighting (I thought the sunlight was too harsh on the anus of the Eopie), etc...
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Well, Eternal is one of the few who appears to be interested in a mature, thought-out debate on this. I'll comment on his last remarks: I agree with much of the awkwardness of the space battle, but again, you can't have it all. YES, Anakin meant to take the fighter out. NO, it might not have been simple to figure out, but YES Anakin previously proved his technical intuition. Just because he meant to go into space doesn't mean he had any clue what he was going to do when he got up there. Don't kids do things like this sometimes? Don't adults? He gets shot at, gets his ship damaged, and loses control. But he has the skill to head for the hangar (he tells Artoo he is doing so), and once there is basically trying to figure out how to get out of there. He didn't have a plan because he wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. His reckless sense of adventure (sound familiar?) took him somewhere he wasn't prepared to deal with. *** As for the Gungan's energy shield, it was quite clear to be that it repelled long-range attack (like the cannon fire) but was penetrable by close-range contact. I thought that was a cool idea, because without that, there wouldn't have been a close-combat fight! The federation's giant firepower would have destroyed the Gungans from a distance. As it happens they were outnumbered anyway and lost the battle (before the droids were turned off). The Gungan casualties looked pretty high to me, but regardless the battle droids are supposed to be pretty inferior soldiers compared to the Stormtroopers (who, I guess don't appear to powerful themselves in the Original Trilogy). The battle scene had too much humor, and the crosscutting between 4 different parts made it hard to care about each one, but the IDEA of the battle was much, much cooler than the Endor battle. And that one wasn't saved by its slightly more competent execution.
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Man, eternal, your thoughts on the final battle, exactly, dude.
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Feb 29, 2000 1:00:55 AM CST
In defense (partially) of the Ewok battle on Endor - apologies f
by dave_f
There've been some good posts regarding TPM here, both pro and con. Seems that maybe the best place to debate Star Wars is *outside* the official Star Wars Talkbacks - fewer yahoos, less polarization. ******** For my part, I'd like to respond to Lazarus' suggestion that the Ewok battle was as ridiculous as the Gungan/Droid battle. I'm no Ewok fan, but I prefer 'em to the Gungans, and I think their battle scene was superior on many levels. First of all, it was brutal. There was a real sense that the Ewoks were getting smashed for a while, and you actually *saw* them dying or dead in several cases. I may be wrong, but I actually don't recall a *single* Gungan dying - I vaguely remember a retreat, but little more. So, emotionally, I felt more attached to the Ewoks plight. Also, I felt the furry little freaks really worked their asses off to win. They were building traps, chunking rock bolas, driving spears into Storm Troopers, etc. The Gungan victories just didn't seem as hard fought as the victories of the Ewoks - too many happy coincidences, as has been noted. Likewise, the Gungans' poorly conceived mix of decent technology (force fields and those glowing spheres) and low-tech (spears), was not nearly so satisfying or coherent as the Ewoks' pure tooth and nails guerilla warfare. Anyone remotely acquainted with military tactics understands the concept of a technically inefficient army defeating a well-quipped enemy by staging guerilla warfare on their home turf (Vietnam anyone?), but what was the reality hook for the Gungan's tactics? I just never had a sense of their planning or of heroic sacrifice. Were the Ewok traps cheesy? I don't think so - more effective than they should've been, but not outright cheesy. And STILL, they carried weight because they suggested the brutality of the battle. Storm Troopers were speared, crushed, and stoned to death by the little furballs. They Ewoks got hurt and they dished out some hurt in return. Both the Ewok and the Gungan battle did showcase inappropriate comic relief, but in the case of the Ewoks, the battle was more dire, and so it detracted less from the scene. Te Endor battle carried gravity because it was inextricably tied to the seeming suicide attack on the second Death Star, and the final confrontation between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor. Whether or not Endor stands alone isn't relevant - it shared the dramatic weight of these other plots, and was the better for it. Of the three-tiered battle in Phantom Menace, the only one of note was the lightsaber battle, and even that lacked the character investment necessary to really bolster it. Last thought: perhaps the weakest thing about the Gungan battle is that the primitive technology vs. high technology had already been done, in the movie immediately preceding it no less! I mean, that whole three-tiered battle was essentially a repeat of Jedi's ending - a lightsaber battle, a "primitives vs. high tech" ground force battle, and a large scale fleet battle with the goal to destroy the all powerful "mother ship." To me, this was one of TPM's most glaring flaws, with TPM's only change being that the ground troops were waiting for the fleet to succeed before they could win, while ROTJ had the fleet reliant on the ground troops. Not too innovative. When I left TPM, I told my friend, "I never thought I'd say this, but that movie made 'Jedi' look dignified." I stand by that comment.
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I have no interest in getting into a childish flame war with you. These pissing contests are counterproductive. Therefore, I have chosen to send you a personal reply. You should receive it soon.
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Yes, theres my intellectual and informative take. yeah, there were too many muppets, but most of the arguments i hear against it you could pose for all the movies. throne room ruled. emperor ruled. star destroyers rule. rebel fleet. jabbas sail barge. redemption of anakin skywalker. ewoks werent THAT bad, they fought and died pretty brutally at points. GREATEST SPACE BATTLE IN HISTORY. remember the good ole days, when jedi was just another one of the three, one week, youd like empire, the next, youd be into jedi...ah...sigh..im getting old i guess....yes, everyone bash me for it, i loved jedi, despite its shortcomings. like harrison ford and fisher werent hungover messes in empire either right? theyre pasty faced and wasted through have of the great empire (which is my favorite like most of us probably) who cares. i appreciate and understand somewhat why the COLLECTIVE ASS can deride it, but man, that movie is still simply fun to watch. yes bash me, RETURN OF THE JEDI WAS GREAT
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This Classic Bash had to come up here eventually ... "No Gungans died during the final battle." What the living shit? Dude, an entire line of Gungans FELL when the shield went down. And what about the charge on the Kaadu? Three dead Gungan Bodies nearly landed ON TOP OF THE DAMN CAMERA! Quit your selective memory crap. Ya'll did actually SEE the movie, right? I love this. First Anakin has shows no skills as a pilot, then its ridiculous that he was able to fly a fighter. Well ... if he was able to fly a fighter, wouldn't that be a demonstration of skill in and of itself? But no, he just "Jumped in one and flew off." NEver mind that Luke did the same thing in ANH. Sigh. Hey Eternal, remember when Chewie growled at that little mouse droid on the Death Star and it went "wee, wee, wee," all the way home? How did that advance the plot? I'm curious to know. I mean, this was before Lucas "sold out," right? I just wish the bashers would get together to form a collective front. First they say TPM is too kiddy, then criticize Qui-Gon for being "too serious." He didn't act like a complete horse's ass like when we first met Yoda, so he didn't "endear himself" to us. What? Do you want TPM to be serious, or don't you? At lets get one thing straight, Qui-Gon is one of the best Jedi Masters who's ever lived, if not the best. TPM showed Yoda for what he really is - a bumbling Jedi bureaucrat incapable of making a decision. Have you ever noticed that in the three movies he's in, everytime he's asked a question, he always replies with "Hard to see, the dark side is," or "Always in motion is the future." Then he usually redirects away from the topic, like "Difficult to see. How you get so big, eating food of this kind?" People, he has NO IDEA what's going on ALL three movies. And then we have Qui-Gon, the one Jedi left in the galaxy who's more interested in serving the will of the Force as opposed to the bullshit Republic/Council status quo. Oh yeah, and for those of you who don't think Lucas is brilliant, turn to page eight of Joe Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces. You'll find some interesting stuff out about the name Jinn. :-)
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Maybe you did see Gungans dying in TPM - I only saw the movie twice and couldn't be sure. That's why I was compelled to preface that particular point with "I might be wrong..." I will say, however, that my *impression* was that the Ewoks sustained far greater casualties and fought a much harder battle. I believe all my other points stand, even if you were to eliminate that one entirely. ************* "I just wish the bashers would get together to form a collective front" you say. Well, it would make debate easier, but in fact, the critics are just as varied in their opinions as the supporters. Don't expect it to happen, and please, don't use the anecdotal evidence of the critics offering contradictory attacks as if that is a defense in any way. Defend the movie on its merits, not because there isn't some mythical "collective front" of detractors. ************** As for your take on Yoda, I honestly think it's wholly off. He did come across as pretty useless in TPM, but I think that was Lucas' own failure to create a youthful version of the character he established in Empire and Jedi. I never got the impression from those two flicks that we were supposed to regard Yoda as anything more or less than the greatest Jedi master of his time, aging, yes, but still an amazing man. His "redirecting" of questions is more a tradition of the wise-but-cranky martial arts master schtick than it is any concerted effort to show him to be a "bumbling Jedi bureaucrat." Also, I think his vague answers were often little more than Lucas trying to keep the Force mysterious by not getting into specifics - an effective ploy, I might add, sadly overturned in TPM. Most of all, Yoda stands head-and-shoulders above Qui-Gon (figuratively) because he was INTERESTING. That wizened old gnome was absolutely *beloved* in Empire and Jedi, and rightly so. He was cranky and stubborn, yet wise and caring, and always visually inventive. His death in Jedi remains an emotional scene. Qui-Gon on the other hand was stoic and sort of generically friendly; not very endearing at all. I liked him, but felt little when he died. His death parallels Obi-Wan
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Wow... it started off a story on Ben Burtt giving a lecture... it ended up yet another debate on the merits of TPM. Well, hell... if anyone gives a womprat's ass, I dug it. It had more holes in it then Harry's Fruit-of-the-Looms, but it was entertaining. Something did always bother me about Anakin and Jar Jar "happening" to prevail so often in the movie; thanks to Brundledan (if I'm not mistaken) for specifying exactly what irked me about that. You're right... character creates the story, not vice versa. Laz, as much as I like ya, I'm not too sold on the "Anakin having a higher motive while piloting the ship" bit. I think it sounds like a fine justification for Lucas' rather poor realization of a climax, but not what was actually intended. Uh. . . but you're still pretty cool in my book for unabashedly enjoying the flick. That much I can say for sure. At any rate, TPM is old news now. Let's start debating all that is known or otherwise about EPISODE II - THE DESTINY DOMINATED. It sounds like it's already going to be a much more enjoyable, less-intellectually insulting film.
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"Bashers" is a funny term. Pointing out legitimate flaws or personal distastes in something makes one a "basher" apparently. You have to love EVERY SINGLE THING about the movie or else your a basher. I love star wars, and although i enjoyed TPM, it had its flaws. JAR JAR was an abomination. Im a basher. The final battle was ruined because of the cliched stupidity that underminded the seriousness of what was going on. Im a basher. Funny, I felt like a fan who was merely disappointed in sesame street-like tactics being employed to resolve the end of the beginning of the story of darth vader...what a tongue twister....sszero, lazarus, eternal, woah, good posts. if i had my way, ep 2 would be a three hour braveheartish epic, imagine a star wars movie done like an epic historical piece? yeah A SERIOUS FUCKING MOVIE, THERE I SAID IT. NO MUPPETS, NO CARTOON CHARACTERS OR SILLY POD RACER PUPPET-LIKE CUTE GUYS. DARKNESS. DESPERATION, THE JEDI CLINGING TO SAVE THEIR WAY IN THE UNFOLDING SWEEPING SAGA OF GALACTIC WAR. YEEEAAAHH. (RipReaver wakes up sighing) yes, yes relax, i know, the kids, the kids oh, well, its just a dream....
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I'd like to congratulate everyone on the mostly civil and mature debate this has turned into. SSZero, I concede many of your points regarding C3P0. I happened to find SOME of Jar Jar's antics funny, and I don't think it's necessary that they drive the plot forward. There were things in all 3 previous films that were throwaway, and I guess the problem with TPM is that all those moments seem to revolve around Jar Jar. But before you completely write Jar Jar off, remember that Lucas was quoted as saying Jar Jar is meant to have a hero's journey over the course of this trilogy. I feel Lucas fucked up by showing NO GROWTH in Jar Jar during the film. He doesn't seem to learn anything. If he would have followed Anakin's or Qui-Gon's lead and performed an act of bravery during the battle, therefore earning his "General's stripes", it would have been a lot cooler. The only thing he said that was "cool" was when the Underwater City is deserted, and Panaka says they were all wiped out. Jar Jar replies "Meesa no think so," which displays the pride he has for his peeople. Expect Jar Jar to grow up in the next 2 films, and die a HERO'S DEATH in Episode III by sacrficing himself to save the others. What also really bugged me about Jedi (and a lot of these points I've come to notice because of The Unauthorized Star Wars Companion), is that Lando was meant to die in Jedi, when the Falcon fails to escape the explosion of the Death Star. As for Ewoks dying, I remember ONE SHOT where you see that little Ewok prodding the body of the dead adult. BOO FUCKING HOO. I already stated that the Endor battle was better executed than the one in TPM (many recent points made about the Endor battle were well-stated), but my problem is that the "mighty" Stormtroopers, AT-ATs and AT-STs were totally humiliated by the Ewok force. I think that's kind of lame. It's one thing to have our heroes continually evade and defeat Stormtroopers (their skills and smarts are why they're our heroes), but give me a break. In TPM it was clear that Palpatine was using the ground battle as a diversion; he didn't give a shit what happened down there. The Federation Battle Droids were poorly constructed, untrained machines. Without the superior technology and outnumbering, the Gungans would have beat them easily. And this battle was NOT a repeat or update of the battle for Endor. The Gungans had technology, just not the most current. Again, the idea for the battle was what I liked, I agree with the poor editing, execution, and focus on Jar Jar.
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I've said it before, but Lucas CANNOT win with Jar-Jar. Not now. Maybe if, as you said, he'd shown some of the predicted character growth in TPM, but he did not. And now, Jar-Jar is generally perceived as a humongous fucking joke. And not just among TalkBackers, but among the general public. There's a very good reason all that Jar-Jar merchandise continues to rot on toy store shelves. And because of that, Lucas cannot now do a story arc in which Jar-Jar matures into a noble, sacrificial hero and have it taken seriously. It would be laughed right off the screen, because the indelible image of Jar-Jar that moviegoers have in their heads is of this giant orange frog that trips over his own feet into a pile of animal shit and says "Pee-yousa!" in a voice almost exactly like that of Dr. Bunsen from "The Muppet Show". Whatever plans he might have had for this character now lie in ruins. The best thing he can do is push him into the background for the next two movies.
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The most nagging problem I have with TPM, even with all the trade embargos and vengeful Siths, is how it seems to have been written for children. It felt, in tone, to be closer to an episode of DROIDS than the first episode of the series. Sure, it's just space opera but why not write UP to your audience instead of down? I loved the original trilogy because it WAS a space opera but executed with wit, flair and gravity, all woefully lacking in TPM. (Believe me, true believers; I WANTED to love TPM.) Yes, I think Jar Jar was an abomination but kids loved him. Why? Because kids have ghastly taste. We all did before we grew up. Pokemon. Barney. Jar Jar. Same difference. At least in the original three films, the events seemed to have been written and acted out by adults. (Yeah, yeah, I know; they were in toilet water in the compactor. It was, however, just an element of the scene. Jar Jar wiping out on an enormous loaf is an intrusion of the scene & adds nothing.) If the intention of the focus of TPM was to show a child's view of the story, (allowing the characters and presumably the tone to slowly mature as the series progresses) then it succeeded. It's just unfortunate that Lucas decided it had to be told to such a dreary child.
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I know there are a lot of Binks haters out there, and I came across a site were they don't like him much either. But despite this, they have discovered his true identity. Go to:
http://www.brunching.com/features/feature-jarjartruth.html
to find out. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow, I stumbled across that page and was so shocked by their discovery; I couldn't help but share it. -
I have to disagree that "contradictory attacks" don't prove anything. It proves no one has any idea of what they're talking about. If one critic says it has no plot, and another says the plot was too convoluted, than, sorry, neither one knows what they're talking about. That much is obvious. SSzero ... What's "plaguerism"? And whatever it is, that's not what I'm talking about, dumbshit. I'm talking about metaphors and mythology, but you probably don't even know what a metaphor is. And Yoda says what about Luke going to rescue Han and Leia? "Will they die?" Luke asks. "Hhmmm ... difficult to see. Always in motion is the future," Yoda replies. That's his answer for EVERYTHING. Oh yeah, he eventually comes up with the brilliant theory that the Sith have in fact returned, after one of his Masters has been rammed through the gut by a blackclothed guy wielding a double-bladed lightsaber. Ooh, I just got a chill down my spine. "What about when he senses much fear in Obi-Wan?" Well, I guess by this you're acknowledging that you HAVEN'T seen it after all. When exactly does Yoda sense "much fear" in Obi-Wan. Oh yeah, "careful contemplation." It looks a bit like sitting on your ass while Qui and Obi are out actually taking care of business and serving the Force. RipReaver - "Sesame Street-tactics"? No, not in TPM. I think you're thinking of The Empire Sucks Back. You know that Yoda guy everyone seems so found of? Well, according to Lucas' biographer Dave Pollock, Yoda's voice was based on GROVER! Yep, I'm glad we got rid of that Kershner hack. Maybe we can actually get some sophisticated stuff this time around, not just some Kermit wanna be furiously pounding on R2's shell shouting "Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine!" God, that was SUCH BRILLIANT DIALOGUE!!!!!!!!!! LOOK OUT DAVID MAMET!!! Oh what was that RipReaver - "NO MUPPETS!" Um, you know Yoda was a muppet, right? Lazarus - Jar Jar does GROW! At the beginning of the film, he freezes in front of the Federation's transports. He can't even move. By the end battle, he's standing beside his troops saying "steady, steady." The adventure obviously matured him. Forget the irony for a second, and you have legitimate character growth. That's something that you never saw in a character like ... well, Chewbacca, for instance. But I forgot, that's part of the Holy Trilogy, and we can't question that. It's SACRED. Bow Before Kasdan! BOW! You want to talk plagarism? Kasdan stole half of the Han-Leia dialogue from Margaret Mitchell's Gone With the Wind. Put that up your ass and smoke it. The only good basher is a banned one.
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Tearing apart Empire Strikes Back (the best in the series) is one of my favorite activities, just to prove that some people are trying too much to hate TPM. I liked it personnaly. Obviously some didn't. But they shouldn't be banned. Some bashers are called ''NOT TRUE FANS''. I think they are ''TOO MUCH'' of a fan if they are blinded by their hate this much. Star Wars will never be Braveheart. They are PG rated movies...
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...contradictory attacks from separate critics do not negate each other, as you seem to suggest. More than likely, it means that the interpreted a scene differently, saw different faults and different merits. Also, one of them might just flat-out be wrong. Determining just *who* is wrong is totally subjective, though the debate can be interesting. Now if the SAME person made contradictory attacks, that would indeed mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. Be cool, my friend.
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Wonders, we actually think a lot a like. Oh come on, SSzero, I DID provide reasons for what I'm saying. But if you can't even get in a few ad hominem attacks while you're arguing with someone on the net, where's the fun? And as far as criticisms go, I've already provided my reasoning way back on another talkback, and have no urge to go over it again. SO YIPPEE YOU YANKEE MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!!!
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had the great privelege of working with ben burrt while shooting second unit scenes for young indiana jones chronicles. he is a modest, soft spoken, breath of fresh air. talented to say the least and is a creative force behind the man that gets all the credit...mr. lucas. when is he going to get his much deserved shot at directing one of george's babies? hopefully sooner than later.
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