Ain't It Cool News (

Herc Predicts Imminent Ax-ation For PRIME SUSPECT, PAN AM, BODY OF PROOF And MAN UP!!

I am – Hercules!!

NBC 18-49
5.2 (6.6) (8.9) (7.7) (8.3)(10.0)(10.7) Sunday Football
2.9 (1.5) (3.3) (3.2) (3.5) (3.9) (1.4) The Office
--- (2.2) (2.1) (2.1) (2.1) (2.4) (---) Law & Order SVU
1.1 (2.1) (2.1) (2.3) (2.1) (2.3) (3.7) Up All Night
2.0 (1.9) (2.0) (2.1) (2.3) (3.6) (---) Biggest Loser
--- (2.0) (2.1) (2.0) (2.2) (2.1) (2.2) Parenthood
2.0 (1.1) (2.0) (2.3) (2.5) (3.3) (---) Whitney
1.8 (1.1) (2.1) (1.9) (2.1) (2.1) (---) Parks and Recreation
1.5 (1.6) (1.5) (1.8) (1.7) (1.9) (---) Sing-Off
1.4 (0.9) (1.7) (1.5) (1.8) (1.7) (0.6) Community
0.8 (1.3) (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (---) Harry’s Law
1.1 (0.8) (1.3) (1.5) (1.5) (1.8) (---) Prime Suspect
1.0 (1.5) (1.4) (1.6) (2.0) (1.5) (1.8) Dateline
0.8 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) College Football

NBC’s strategy of flooding primetime with “Prime Suspect” repeats last week proved unfruitful. Thursday’s new episode of Maria Bello’s cop drama hit a personal low and overtook “Harry’s Law” as the lowest-rated scripted drama on the network.

The crappy ratings for “Dateline” demonstrate why “Rock Center With Brian Williams,” debuting Halloween, got a multi-year order. Nobody can be bothered to cancel primetime news shows, which represent a cheap way to plug holes in primetime.

ABC 18-49
4.5 (5.7) (5.9) (5.7) (5.7) (6.1) (1.8) Modern Family
4.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Once Upon A Time
3.7 (3.6) (3.6) (3.1) (3.6) (4.3) (1.0) Grey’s Anatomy
3.5 (3.0) (3.2) (2.8) (3.1) (---) (---) Happy Endings
3.4 (3.1) (3.0) (3.1) (3.3) (---) (---) Suburgatory
3.2 (3.3) (3.0) (3.1) (3.3) (4.0) (---) Dancing/Stars (Mo)
3.2 (3.0) (2.9) (2.8) (2.7) (3.1) (1.3) The Middle
3.0 (2.7) (2.8) (3.0) (3.2) (---) (---) Desperate Housewives
2.8 (3.1) (3.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) Last Man Standing
2.7 (2.5) (2.7) (2.4) (2.7) (3.3) (---) Revenge
2.6 (2.6) (3.3) (2.9) (2.9) (2.9) (---) Dancing/Stars (Tu)
2.4 (2.5) (2.1) (2.5) (3.1) (3.2) (---) Castle
2.4 (2.3) (2.3) (2.1) (2.8) (---) (---) Private Practice
2.0 (2.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Man Up!
2.0 (1.2) (1.1) (1.2) (1.0) (1.2) (1.0) 20/20
1.8 (1.9) (1.8) (2.0) (1.8) (2.2) (---) Body of Proof
1.8 (1.8) (1.9) (2.6) (3.1) (---) (---) Pan Am

1.5 (1.6) (1.4) (1.5) (---) (1.2) (1.2) AFH Videos
1.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Extreme MHE
0.7 (---) (1.6) (1.8) (2.2) (3.0) (---) College Football

“Pan Am” and “Body of Proof” remain locked in a death-battle for lowest-rated scripted ABC hourlong.

Why does Christopher Moynihan keep getting hired to create horrible sitcoms? “Man Up!” which got some of the worst reviews of the season, looks ready to join NBC’s unwatchable “100 Questions” in the laughtrack scrap pile.

Yikes! A fricking repeat of “Modern Family” beat everything else on ABC. People like that show!

“Once Upon A Time” got off to a great start, but so did a lot of ABC genre shows that didn't last long (“V” and “FlashForward” lurch to mind).

CBS 18-49
5.5 (5.3) (5.9) (6.2) (7.4) (10.7)(1.2) 2½ Men
4.6 (5.1) (4.6) (4.5) (4.9) (5.0) (2.5) Big Bang Theory
4.5 (4.4) (4.3) (4.5) (4.6) (7.1) (---) 2 Broke Girls
4.3 (4.2) (4.0) (4.5) (4.5) (5.0) (1.2) How I Met Your Mother
4.2 (3.9) (3.9) (4.3) (4.8) (---) (---) Mike & Molly
4.1 (3.9) (4.0) (4.2) (5.2) (4.3) (1.7) NCIS
2.8 (3.9) (3.8) (3.8) (3.6) (4.1) (---) Criminal Minds
3.7 (3.4) (3.3) (3.4) (3.6) (3.6) (1.7) NCIS LA
3.5 (3.3) (3.2) (3.1) (3.2) (3.2) (3.4) Survivor
3.3 (3.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Rules of Engagement
3.1 (3.1) (2.7) (3.2) (3.3) (3.4) (---) Hawaii Five-0
2.7 (2.7) (2.8) (2.6) (2.7) (3.1) (---) Person of Interest
2.7 (2.7) (2.8) (3.2) (3.0) (---) (---) Amazing Race
2.0 (2.6) (2.6) (2.9) (3.1) (3.2) (---) CSI
2.5 (2.5) (2.5) (2.7) (2.6) (2.8) (1.5) Mentalist
2.5 (2.5) (2.3) (2.5) (2.5) (2.9) (---) Unforgettable
2.3 (1.7) (3.2) (3.5) (2.3) (2.9) (1.3) 60 Minutes
2.1 (2.4) (2.2) (2.4) (2.3) (1.1) (---) CSI Miami
2.0 (2.1) (2.1) (2.2) (2.2
) (1.1) (0.9) The Good Wife
1.8 (1.7) (1.6) (1.7) (1.8) (0.8) (0.7) CSI NY
1.7 (1.8) (1.9) (1.8) (2.0) (0.9) (0.8) Blue Bloods
1.2 (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (1.4) (---) (---) A Gifted Man
1.1 (0.9) (0.9) (---) (1.2) (1.1) (0.9) 48 Hours

“The Good Wife” and “CSI Miami” both hit season lows against the World Series last weekend, while “Amazing Race” did just fine. I’ll bet anyone $10 “Wife” or “Miami” or both will be gone by next season. (“Good Wife” is that rare CBS hourlong that pulls “best drama” nominations, so we’ll see if that helps.)

8.7 (---) (---) (---) (9.4) (---)(10.2) Fox Football (Su)
6.5 (4.0) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Fox Baseball (Th)
4.4 (3.9) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) The X Factor (Tu)
--- (---) (---) (4.3) (4.5) (4.8) (---) New Girl
4.2 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Fox Baseball (Mo)
4.2 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Fox Baseball (Su)
--- (---) (3.7) (4.0) (3.9) (4.3) (---) The X Factor (Th)
--- (---) (3.7) (4.1) (4.1) (4.4) (---) The X Factor (We)
--- (---) (---) (3.6) (3.7) (4.0) (1.0) Glee
--- (---) (---) (3.5) (4.1) (---) (1.9) Family Guy
3.2 (2.1) (1.8) (---) (---) (---) (---) Fox Baseball (Sa)
--- (3.1) (2.7) (3.9) (---) (---) (---) House
--- (---) (---) (3.0) (3.9) (---) (2.4) The Simpsons
--- (---) (---) (2.9) (2.9) (3.1) (0.8) Raising Hope

--- (2.8) (2.5) (3.1) (3.1) (---) (---) Terra Nova
--- (---) (---) (2.7) (3.0) (---) (---) American Dad
--- (---) (---) (2.6) (3.1) (---) (---) Cleveland Show
1.4 (1.4) (1.6) (1.7) (1.6) (1.0) (0.9) Kitchen Nightmares

0.5 (1.2) (1.3) (1.2) (1.5) (0.6) (0.6) Fringe
--- (---) (---) (---) (1.0) (1.1) (1.0) Cops

“Terra Nova” gained before the baseball hiatus, leaving “Fringe” alone as most likely to get cancelled. I trust Fox will let it finish out the season, given that The Bishop Boys were gangbusters business before Fox moved them to later in the week.

CW 18-49
1.5 (1.4) (1.4) (1.2) (1.3) (1.2) (1.5) Vampire Diaries
1.0 (0.9) (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (0.9) Next Top Model
0.9 (0.9) (0.8) (0.8) (1.0) (0.9) (1.3) Secret Circle
0.8 (0.6) (0.6) (0.8) (0.8) (---) (---) Hart of Dixie
--- (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (0.8) (0.7) (0.9) 90210
0.3 (0.8) (0.7) (0.6) (0.9) (0.9) (1.2) Ringer
0.8 (0.8) (0.7) (0.7) (0.8) (---) (0.3) Supernatural
0.7 (0.6) (0.6) (0.7) (0.7) (---) (---) Gossip Girl
0.6 (0.5) (0.5) (0.6) (0.6) (---) (0.3) Nikita

Everything currently on the CW, even “Nikita,” is renewed for the balance of the season.

CABLE 1.0+ (adults 18-49)
3.6 (3.8) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) The Walking Dead
3.3 (5.0) (6.9) (4.5) (7.2) (4.8) (6.3) Monday Night Football
2.0 (2.0) (1.9) (1.9) (1.7) (1.9) (2.0) Sons of Anarchy
1.8 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Beavis and Butt-head
1.8 (1.7) (1.9) (1.7) (1.6) (1.6) (1.4) WWE Entertainment
1.7 (1.5) (1.4) (1.6) (---) (---) (---) American Horror Story
1.7 (1.7) (1.3) (1.2) (---) (1.5) (1.3) Real Housewives NJ
1.6 (1.4) (1.7) (1.5) (---) (---) (---) South Park
1.4 (1.9) (1.7) (1.7) (1.7) (1.9) (0.9) Tosh.0
1.3 (---) (---) (---) (1.6) (1.4) (1.5) Pawn Stars
1.1 (1.3) (0.6) (1.1) (1.0) (1.2) (0.9) American Chopper
1.1 (1.0) (1.2) (1.1) (1.3) (---) (---) Boardwalk Empire
1.1 (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (---) (---) (---) Halloween Wars
1.1 (1.1) (0.9) (1.0) (0.9) (0.8) (1.2) Project Runway
1.1 (1.0) (1.0) (---) (---) (---) (---) Psych
1.1 (1.1) (1.0) (1.0) (0.9) (---) (---) Real Housewives BH
1.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Crossfit Games
1.0 (1.2) (1.3) (1.0) (1.0) (1.4) (---) Workaholics

“Beavis and Butt-head” returned after a 14-year absence to overtake 14-year-old “South Park” as cable’s highest rated comedy. “Boardwalk Empire,” the highest-rating thing on pay cable at the moment, got its third season last week. “Sons of Anarchy,” to the surprise of no one, just was renewed for next year. I imagine FX’s “American Horror Story,” which just hit a personal high, will be back next fall as well.

CABLE 0.9 and under 18-49
0.9 (0.7) (0.6) (0.8) (0.9) (0.7) (0.7) Basketball Wives LA
0.9 (0.7) (0.9) (1.1) (---) (---) (---) Dexter
0.9 (---) (0.5) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) Iron Chef America
0.9 (0.9) (0.9) (1.1) (1.3) (1.2) (1.4) It’s Always Sunny
0.9 (---) (0.4) (---) (---) (0.9) (---) SpongeBob
0.9 (1.7) (0.7) (1.0) (---) (0.7) (1.9) Storage Wars
0.9 (0.8) (0.7) (0.7) (---) (0.8) (0.8) Top Shot
0.9 (1.0) (1.0) (0.9) (1.1) (0.7) (1.0) WWE Smackdown
0.8 (0.8) (0.5) (0.6) (0.5) (0.7) (---) American Restoration
0.8 (0.9) (---) (1.0) (0.9) (---) (---) Bad Girls Club
0.8 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Good Vibes
0.8 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Modern History
0.8 (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (1.2) (---) (---) Real World
0.8 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Robot Chicken
0.8 (0.9) (0.9) (1.1) (1.2) (---) (---) Sister Wives
0.8 (0.9) (0.9) (0.6) (0.5) (---) (---) Watch What Happens
0.7 (0.7) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) American Hoggers
0.7 (---) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) Aqua Unit Patrol
0.7 (0.6) (0.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) Bordertown Laredo
0.7 (0.7) (0.7) (0.7) (0.7) (0.7) (0.8) Children’s Hospital
0.7 (0.4) (0.6) (0.9) (1.0) (0.8) (---) College Football
0.7 (0.6) (0.5) (---) (0.6) (---) (---) Extreme Couponing
0.7 (---) (0.6) (0.5) (0.5) (---) (---) Food Net Challenge
0.7 (0.6) (0.6) (0.9) (0.8) (0.6) (0.7) Ghost Hunters
0.7 (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (---) (---) Mythbusters
0.7 (0.5) (0.5) (0.7) (---) (---) (---) Phineas & Ferb
0.7 (---) (---) (0.7) (---) (---) (---) Pretend Time
0.7 (---) (---) (---) (0.8) (---) (---) Storage Wars
0.7 (0.6) (0.5) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) Tell A Lie
0.6 (0.7) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) American Guns
0.6 (---) (---) (0.5) (0.6) (0.5) (---) Blue Mountain State
0.6 (0.6) (0.8) (0.8) (1.0) (0.7) (0.8) Chopped
0.6 (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Fact Or Faked
0.6 (0.7) (0.7) (---) (0.6) (---) (---) The First 48
0.6 (---) (0.6) (---) (0.5) (---) (0.5) Good Luck Charlie
0.6 (0.5) (0.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) Hardcore History
0.6 (---) (0.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) Hoarders
0.6 (0.6) (0.6) (0.7) (---) (---) (---) Jessie
0.6 (0.8) (1.5) (0.8) (0.9) (---) (---) Kendra
0.6 (0.5) (0.5) (---) (0.7) (0.5) (0.6) LaLa’s Full Court
0.6 (0.7) (0.6) (0.9) (---) (---) (---) The League
0.6 (0.4) (0.6) (0.6) (0.6) (0.6) (0.7) Operation Repo
0.6 (0.6) (0.4) (0.4) (---) (0.4) (0.5) Rachel Zoe Project
0.6 (---) (0.6) (0.6) (---) (---) (---) Shake It Up
0.6 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Squidbillies
0.6 (0.7) (0.6) (0.5) (---) (0.5) (---) Wizards of Waverly
0.5 (0.5) (0.5) (0.4) (0.5) (---) (---) Ancient Aliens
0.5 (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (0.5) Auction Hunters
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) College Football
0.5 (0.6) (0.4) (0.5) (0.4) (---) (---) Decoded
0.5 (---) (0.4) (0.5) (0.4) (0.5) (0.5) Diners, Drive-Ins And Dives
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Extreme Couponing
0.5 (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Hairy Bikers
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (0.4) Hardcore History
0.5 (0.6) (0.5) (1.1) (0.9) (---) (1.0) Hardcore Pawn
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) House of Payne
0.5 (0.8) (0.5) (0.5) (0.5) (0.5) (0.6) Impact Wrestling
0.5 (0.6) (0.7) (0.7) (0.7) (1.0) (---) IRT Deadliest
0.5 (0.6) (0.6) (0.6) (0.6) (---) (---) Long Island Medium
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Monster-In-Laws
0.5 (0.6) (0.5) (0.6) (0.6) (0.6) (0.6) NTSF:SD:SUV
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Next Iron Chef
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Project Accessory
0.5 (0.4) (---) (---) (0.3) (0.3) (0.4) Property Brothers
0.5 (0.4) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) Sanctuary
0.5 (0.5) (0.5) (---) (0.4) (0.5) (0.4) Say Yes To The Dress
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Small Potatoes
0.5 (0.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Talking Dead
0.5 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Tech It To The Max
0.5 (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Time Machine
0.5 (0.4) (0.4) (0.5) (0.5) (0.6) (0.4) Top Chef Just Desserts
0.5 (0.5) (0.5) (---) (0.6) (0.4) (0.5) T.O. Show
0.5 (0.4) (0.5) (0.4) (0.3) (---) (---) Watch What Happens
0.4 (0.4) (0.5) (0.4) (0.4) (0.5) (---) Against The Wall
0.4 (0.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) AMC Fearfest
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) American Guns
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) American Hoggers
0.4 (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) American Pickers
0.4 (---) (0.6) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) ANT Farm
0.4 (0.5) (0.5) (---) (0.5) (---) (0.4) Auction Kings
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (0.5) Bait Car
0.4 (0.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Bill Maher
0.4 (0.5) (0.4) (0.5) (0.4) (---) (0.5) Chopped
0.4 (0.5) (---) (0.5) (0.4) (0.4) (0.4) Conan
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Crave
0.4 (0.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Cupcake Wars
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) E60
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Extreme Drug Smuggling
0.4 (---) (---) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) Fish Hooks
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Flip Men
0.4 (0.5) (0.6) (---) (0.4) (---) (---) Ghost Adventures
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Gold Rush Alaska
0.4 (0.4) (---) (---) (0.3) (---) (---) Holmes Inspection
0.4 (0.4) (0.4) (0.4) (---) (---) (---) Homeland
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (0.4) House Hunters
0.4 (---) (0.4) (0.4) (---) (---) (---) House Hunters Intl
0.4 (0.4) (0.4) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) Hung
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Income Property
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Just Go With It
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Kitchen Cousins
0.4 (0.4) (0.4) (0.4) (0.4) (---) (---) Little Couple
0.4 (0.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) (0.4) Most Shocking
0.4 (0.4) (0.4) (0.4) (0.6) (---) (---) 19 Kids/Counting
0.4 (---) (0.5) (---) (0.6) (0.6) (0.8) Restaurant Impossible
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (0.3) Selling New York
0.4 (0.5) (0.5) (0.5) (---) (0.4) (0.5) The Soup
0.4 (---) (0.5) (0.5) (0.4) (---) (---) Sweet Genius
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (0.4) (---) (---) Time Machine
0.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) The Universe
0.4 (0.4) (0.4) (---) (---) (---) (0.4) World’s Dumbest
0.3 (0.5) (0.4) (0.5) (---) (---) (---) After The Runway
0.3 (0.4) (0.5) (0.3) (---) (---) (---) Fashion Police
0.3 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Gangland
0.3 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Selling L.A.

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Readers Talkback
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    + Expand All
  • Oct. 28, 2011, 11:20 p.m. CST

    That's too bad :(

    by CherryValance

    I really liked Prime Suspect. I ended up liking it more that Person of Interest. (That concept is already getting old.) But I liked the Suspect cast. I thought there was a good energy there and I really don't understand why it didn't do better. But they tried at least by putting it on all week. I watched them all again. *shrug* I guess it has to be done.

  • Oct. 28, 2011, 11:23 p.m. CST


    by aeternitatis

    is one of the best shows on tv and far more people should be watching it. Unfortunately, it got off to a rough start in season 1, and the early promos and first episode portrayed it as a shallow watch-Maggie-Q-wear-a-different-slutty-outfit-each-week sort of thing. But it turned around pretty quickly - compelling story/character arcs, fun writing, great action, etc - and only got better as the season progressed. I guess it's good we'll have at least this season, but with those ratings I'd be surprised if there's a next...

  • Oct. 28, 2011, 11:24 p.m. CST

    Fringe is done

    by In Action Man Reborn Requiem

    With the addition of Grimm. You now have a three way sci-fi /fantasy split at the nine PM time slot on Friday. I like the show but it is probably time to wrap it up. Let's just hope Fox has enough class to let it go out on a high note.

  • Oct. 28, 2011, 11:55 p.m. CST

    fox just loves killing good shows

    by ORIONgods

    really did they think moving fringe around was going 2 work

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:04 a.m. CST

    "Pan Am" and "Prime" were obviously not going to make it.

    by MisterManReturns

    The pilots for both made that clear. So, why were they such critical darlings?

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:29 a.m. CST

    Pretty simple, mistermanreturns.

    by cookepuss

    The post-9/11 world sucks. We're desperate to return to a simpler time, even if that time we're returning to was more flawed in its own way. In the 1970s, the country was just getting out of Vietnam. How did TV respond? Happy Days and the comparative simplicity of the 1950s. It also doesn't hurt that the people in power to create and review these shows now tend to romanticize their wonder years or the years surrounding them. You see similar trends in fashion, art, and music. Occasionally, you'll hit it just right with shows like Mad Men, Happy Days, or That 70s Show. Other times, it'll just go clunk like the attempted return of bell bottoms, That 80s Show, or Pan Am. This romanticizing of the past also tends to work against remakes, which is why Prime Suspect & Charlie's Angels went kerplunk. The world changes. The concept now seems kitschy. It seems too retro now. Whatever the reason, the show being remade is rarely as good as you remembered it being. If you're going to remake any old song, movie, or TV show, it's probably best to stay true to the spirit and foundation, but update it for modern audiences. There IS such a thing as being too faithful to the source. Then again, updating can backfire too. It's a fine line and audiences are a bunch of fickle bitches. =)

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:37 a.m. CST

    Pan Am is no Mad Men. That's why it's failing.

    by Quake II

    It takes place in the same year as Mad Men but features little drinking, almost no smoking, barely any sex, no conflicts and no real drama. In fact it's so fluffy and safe I don't know why they don't just air it at 8pm. There's nothing sexy or risque' about airline pilots/stewardesses in the 1960's? Are you kidding me? Read the book Coffee Tea Or Me for the dirt on what hedonistic whores airline employees were in the 60's.

  • It's literally impossible to still be that beautiful at that age, and doing nothing really surgically along the way (which, it kinda looks like she's still at least mostly natural). She's still so sexy, she definitely had a little chat with the devil at some point.

  • because seriously people, it's as if over the last year+ they've been actively TRYING to make it get canceled. Plus all that arrogant, smug marketing when they first moved it to Fridays about how it would buck the old "death" trend, and sure it did as I understand, for about the first 2 weeks. Then started tanking. And it's like they just refuse to move it elsewhere.<br> <br>Luckily at least, I get the feeling even the writers never intended Fringe to be the kind of thing that would really go as many as 7-8 seasons, so even if by some miracle they even get one more full one after this, they'd of been ready to tell their complete story in 5 seasons anyway.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:49 a.m. CST

    One slight correction Herc

    by room23storeblogspotcom

    You mentioned V and Flashforward as lasting only a season, V lasted two seasons. Bu that was an easy mistake.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 1 a.m. CST

    Next week on "Body of Proof" Megan starts dating again

    by kabong

    Ratings will go through the roof. <p> She'll take her date back to the morgue and see a stiff.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 2:10 a.m. CST

    2 shows called time machine?

    by gotilk

    Or an oops?

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 3:05 a.m. CST

    'Proof' has a great cast and exactly the wrong tone.

    by Tom

    I can't tell who its aimed at Aside from people who want to be the filling in a Jeri Ryan/Dana Delany sandwich, obvs.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 3:16 a.m. CST

    Fuck you Fox

    by mongo126

    Seriously, are they trying to single handedly take out sci-fi as a viable TV option? I only hope that they give the writers a heads up so that they might actually get a chance to tie up the show. On the bright side, they probably only had another season anyway. Maybe we get rid of fluff and just finish the show out with some solid episodes.

  • 1. Sci-fi is expensive. A typical 22 episode season comes out to about 16 hours. The average sci-fi show runs $5m-10m per episode - or $110m-$220m per season. That's summer blockbuster money. If the ratings don't reach a certain level then advertising drops. Ultimately, in the chain of things, the network is then left two options. Outright cancellation or retooling to make it less expensive. FOX, although it is now 25 years old, can't afford to keep on something so expensive if its hemorrhaging viewers. Realistically, they can barely afford to keep on one such show. Currently, FOX is trying to support TWO sci-fi shows. Not a good sign for Fringe if FOX commits itself to staying behind Terra Nova for the long haul. 2. Sci-fi is time consuming to make. A show like V (2009) typically has 250-450 VFX shots per episode. On the low end, that's more than 2/3 as many shot as on the first two Star Wars prequels. With the way TV works, you're not going to go into the season with just one episode in the can. They need to buffer up a few before airing. And, because post-production can last longer than actual shooting, they need lead time. If ratings don't instantly take off in that first batch of eps then there's no way the network is going to greenlight even more on a hunch. That's throwing good money after bad and wasting a lot of people's time. 3. WTF does FOX stick a sci-fi show in its schedule? Sunday's taken with their animation block. Saturday and Fridays are graveyards because most people have lives. That leaves Mon-Thu. FOX is so heavily invested in a few key reality show money makers like American Idol, which eats up 3-4 hours over 2 nights. That leaves just 4 hours of programming space. In that space, they usually stick on scripted dramas or comedies that are cheaper to produce and still haul in advertising dollars, enough to justify putting those shows against other network heavy hitters. FOX is unlikely to stick a niche show like Fringe up against DWTS or Modern Family. That only leaves the graveyard Friday or Saturday blocks. That's why FOX hopes to keep production costs low by focusing on sci-fi stories without heavy sci-fi effects. That's why their rumored safe zone is a ghastly 1.6, as it just barely justifies their costs. It might do better in another slot, but the numbers are not as guaranteed. If FOX can confidently bet on a Friday 1.6 week after week then that's better than risking an unpredictable roller coaster on a better night. 4. Can sci-fi on TV really reach both a broad and sweet spot demo? Getting the young genre fanboys in isn't hard. Getting everybody else in is trickier. Getting those women in is just as hard too. Fringe may be quality TV, but it doesn't have the broad appeal that speaks to little Timmy AND Grandma. FOX definitely has made bad decisions in the past. I won't deny that. Too many studio execs with notes. Too much preempting. Airing episodes out of order. FOX guys are stupid that way. Cancellation usually boils down to money though and sci-fi is a money leech. FOX doesn't have a great record with sci-fi and it probably never will. They consistently produce good sci-fi shows, but it's rare that they can keep them going. X-Files is a rarity. It's a miracle that Fringe has lasted as long as it has. Most sci-fi shows on FOX don't last beyond Season 2. Off the top of my head, sci-fi/fantasy shows on FOX that got canned..... MANTIS, Strange Luck, Millennium, Lone Gunmen, John Doe, Tru Calling, Dollhouse, Firefly, Dark Angel, VR5, Virtuality, Terminator, Sliders, & Brimstone. That's 14 canned sci-fi/fantasy shows to air on FOX and that got sacked before their time. Some sucked ass totally. Some, like Terminator and Dark Angel, were actually good. DA, afaik, was originally going to get renewed for S3 and then FOX realized that it couldn't afford that AND Firefly. They bet on Whedonites and lost. Mostly FOX's fault for the above reasons - messed up ep ordering and preempting. FOX likes sci-fi. The viewership on network just isn't there. Gone are the days when a single show could score a Cosby era 35 share. Cable has cut into that pie. Big time. Successful shows barely get 10% that nowadays. Impossible to justify $110m-$220m per season with numbers that are 1/2 that smaller share. Can you blame FOX in that case? Fringe could've gotten canned the moment somebody uttered the words "shape shifter" or "parallel world."

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 4:01 a.m. CST


    by Jon

    Where are you pulling these numbers from? Because they sound way off from everything I've seen in the past. RE: 250-450 VFX shots per episode for sci-fi shows If an average episode of a show like V had 450 VFX shots in an episode, that would mean it would have to have a VFX shot every 6 seconds - or basically, almost every shot of the show would have to have VFX in it. Which we know is not the case. Even if it were, the VFX here is far less complex than for a big-budget film. Also, at the HIGH end, that's not even remotely close to 2/3 the number of VFX shots on Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones (which are pretty much entirely VFX from beginning to end). Just doing a Google search, you can find that there are about 2000 VFX shots in both Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. RE: $5-10 mill per episode for sci-fi shows Fringe's double-episode pilot cost $10 million and that was considered a very pricey pilot - something they typically spend a lot more money on then the rest of the series. On cable - Game of Thrones, airing on HBO, with a budget of $60 million over 10 episodes, is considered pricey. Somehow, even with double the number of episodes, I very much doubt FOX is spending double to quadruple the money on Fringe that HBO is spending on Game of Thrones. I think just watching both shows, you can easily deduce that Game of Thrones costs a lot more (although I don't think Fringe has bad production quality by any means - it just doesn't need the same scale). Back on FOX - look at Terra Nova - The Hollywood Reporter considers that a pricey show at $4 million per episode - and the FOX entertainment president agrees: "Fox reportedly plans to shell out $4 million an episode for "Terra Nova," a time-travel family adventure series that will turn up midseason. "It's a very big bet," Fox Entertainment president Kevin Reilly said. "This thing is going to be huge. It's going to take an enormous production commitment."" And that's a full million per episode below your lowest estimate.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 4:13 a.m. CST

    by Jon

    On V...just looked it up. It did have 450 (or 432 to be exact) VFX shots in one episode but it was the season finale. That's not quite 'typical'. For the all the other episodes, the show averaged between 250-300 VFX shots. Still doesn't remotely compare to the 2000 shots in the Star Wars prequels, and the fact that we're probably talking fairly minor VFX work for many of the shots in V, whereas most of the VFX shots in the Star Wars prequels are huge-scale and far more complex.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 4:26 a.m. CST


    by centilope

    Terra Nova "only" costs 4 million $ per episode, Fringe is surely cheaper than that. The huge mistake FOX made was move the show to Thursday (the most competitive night) from its previous timeslot where it was getting good if not great ratings.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 5:31 a.m. CST

    VFX shot counts

    by TheAD

    More and more shows are using greenscreen for set extension... even stuff like rooftop and street scenes in things like CSI are using greenscreen to add the city in the background while the actors are actually on a set. This isn't necessarily every scene but it's going on more than most people realize. You can be sure something like V is using these techniques heavily as well, which will up the VFX shot count considerably with what is probably one of the easier and cheaper effects to pull off. I one particular period movie, they could have shot in a mountainous region but opted for a flat farm surrounded by trees because of the tax incentives in that area... but then they went in an added mountain skylines to every shot. They probably wasted the money they saved on taxes puting in mountians with computers.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 5:55 a.m. CST

    Panam not yet

    by majortom25

    I dont watch the show but panam just filmed part of an ep here on long island so i dont know about it being cancelled yet

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 6:28 a.m. CST

    Pan Am/Prime Suspect are good, but not handled well

    by GhostDad

    Pan Am was surprisingly my favorite pilot of the fall. The problem is that Pan Am isn't the show that it was made out to be, it's not edgy or overly sexual, it's actually really mild and tame and the characters are all pretty positive. It's an enjoyable enough show, but it's not a sunday night show that's going to keep your mature audiences from flipping over to HBO or AMC. I think It would fair better in an earlier timeslot and with some marketing that plays up the fun of the show rather than "this is Mad Men." With Prime Suspect, I just think people are tired of network NY cop shows. There've been so many of them and everything has been done that I really just think the stories and locations are way too familiar, and that's gonna overshadow the good cast and performances. There are also so many other police procedurals that have been on for years, why commit to a new one? If it's cancelled, I'll miss it up until Southland starts back up, then I'll forget about it.

  • I find it a pleasant, passable series for me to watch, but I can understand why it will probably be cancelled soon. I really have no idea what could be done to fix it -- the actors are quite likable, and the production value is top-notch. When it comes right down to it, its premise just isn't appealing to mainstream network TV viewers.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:31 a.m. CST

    Fox and Science Fiction

    by Peter David

    I was at the San Diego Comic Con when they had a special screening of the pilot of "Sarah Conner Chronicles." Packed room; had to be two thousand people there at least. Everyone loved it. They were into every minute of it. And then, at the very end, while thunderous applause sounded throughout the room, a title card came up at the end: "Coming this fall...on Fox." The applause ended immediately, to be replaced by loud moans. Everyone one knew at that instant that between Fox's endless tone-deaf executive meddling ("Let's take the first episode of 'Firefly' and run it last while we force Whedon to produce a new first episode overnight. Oh, and be sure to stick it on Friday.") and track record of cancelling quality SF (dating back to when one of the first things they did as a network was dump "Alien Nation," even though it was highly rated and doing well for them) that there was no way the series would be around for the long haul. Why do you think Chris Carter kept saying "X-Files" wasn't SF even though it obviously was? He was probably worried that if Fox noticed it was SF, they'd cancel it immediately. The failure of "The Playboy Club" and struggles of "Pan Am" simply provide another example of how TV executives don't "get it." They saw the success of "Mad Men" and said, "Oh! Shows set in the 1960s are hot! Let's do some of those!" They ignored two things. First of all, the bar of success on AMC is far lower than for network. If "Mad Men" drew the kinds of numbers on NBC that it drew on AMC, they'd have come out of the first station break saying, "Mad Men has been cancelled. We now return to 'Jake and the Fat Man,' already in progress." Just because it would get wider exposure on a network doesn't mean the audience numbers would increase exponentially. Second, what makes "Mad Men" successful isn't the time frame. It's the characters. Without compelling characters, viewers won't return week after week. All the networks did was seize on the surface aspect of "1960s" when that's really the least of the show's attractions. Seeing something nostalgic may bring in viewers initially, but if they don't become invested in the characters, they won't come back. As for "Good Wife," CBS screwed themselves by counterprogramming it against the last season of "Desperate Housewives." What did they THINK was gonna happen? PAD

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:33 a.m. CST

    Maria Bello is simply not believable as a hard edged cop!

    by Drunken Busboy

    She needs to be more subtle in her acting. It is too forced and in your face just like NBC's marketing campaign when it comes to promoting this show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:37 a.m. CST

    When will WHITNEY be put out if it's misery!

    by Drunken Busboy

    Here is yet another comedy where the commercials keep pushing how funny it is yet the commercial and the show itself fail to prove it. It is sad the Parks & Rec are getting lower ratings that this flaming pile of shit! Following THE OFFICE is the only reason why the ratings are what they are. Certainly it isn't because of the show's own merits or lack of them. I will go to the hills and rejoice when this thing is taken out back of the woodshed and shot!

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:38 a.m. CST

    ghostdad: I agree with your assessment of Pan Am

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    ABC should re-market the series as being bright, sunny and more family friendly. Nothing wrong with this. I myself like edgy, more mature series, but can watch something that's lighter.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:57 a.m. CST

    Delicious, strawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwbery-flavored DEATH!

    by Nasty In The Pasty

    It's criminal what Fox is doing to Fringe. When a show like Supernatural can run for seven seasons, and Fringe is struggling to get renewed for a fifth, it just says bad things about the whole Nielsen system. I think of Fringe like the new Newsradio...a BRILLIANT 90's NBC sitcom that was literally teetering on the knife's edge of cancellation for it's ENTIRE RUN, somehow making its way towards a nearly 100-episode run despite being bounced arounf the NBC schedule no less than SEVEN TIMES. I suppose we should feel lucky Fringe has made it even this far, but if it gets cancelled before it can finish telling a storyline that was clearly intended for about five seasons' worth of episodes, I'll be infuriated (the same way I was when The 4400 was cancelled before it could resolve its running storylines).

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 8:06 a.m. CST

    By the numbers

    by akirakid

    Why does no one talk about cancelling College Football? It's the lowest rated and the numbers keep going down. It's funny how no one even THINKS about getting rid of sports and yet a series that falls below a certain number is "sure to get the axe". There's no patience for a series to find its legs any more. "Playboy Club" could have developed into something substantial by midseason and "Pan Am" shows real potential but no one wants to wait. Execs want immediate results and I think that's a shame. I understand the numbers game. I just think it really sucks. Too many show meet their fate WAAAYY too early because of it. I feel that if a show gets greenlit for X number of episodes then the network should commit to showing that many before they are allowed to make a decision. Make and show 13 episodes, take a break and then decide whether to bring the show back or not. Getting rid of a show after 3 weeks does not allow for the runners to correct for mistakes or beef up popular characters or storylines. Does a new show stack up well against an established show? Does the show do well on a new night or "tough to program" night like Fridays? There are too many factors that I hope execs take in to mind before dumping a show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 8:17 a.m. CST

    why are you still only looking at 18-49 ratings?

    by j2talk

    why are you still only looking at 18-49 ratings? you need to look at total ratings as well as DVR views and take into account potential DVD sales-a good reason Fringe will make a full season.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    hopefully FOX will renew Fringe for 1 final season

    by Titus05

    or at least give them enough notice to let the writers wrap up the story in their own need for a rushed ending where everything needs to be explained in 2-3 episodes...let it play out naturally towards a conclusion over 22 more episodes

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST

    P.S: isn't Fringe one of the most DVR'd programs?

    by Titus05

    that should factor in as well

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 9:42 a.m. CST

    DVR doesn't count because....

    by Jarek

    ...DVRs have the option of dropping the commercials. And ads/commercials are the only reason these shows are even on the air to begin with. So, they judge ratings solely based on viewer ad penetration, not the actual show itself. It's the way it's always been. Only premium cable networks don't seem to count that, but that's why you're paying a premium, instead of some cheap package or free-to-air.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 10:10 a.m. CST

    some sad news....

    by emeraldboy

    Sir Jimmy Saville has died at the age of 84. RIP

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Where is MTV's Death Valley?

    by Left_Hand_Path

    Love that show, hope it is doing well enough for renewal.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST

    CSI:NY, A Gifted Man and Blue Bloods

    by Symposium

    Are all doing worse than CSI:Miami and The Good Wife so I doubt they will cancel them.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11 a.m. CST

    Fringe is doing well in its timeslot

    by ArianeB

    The ratings of Fringe are nearly double The Good Guys which was the previous occupant of the Friday death slot. It does OK in its time slot vs other shows. And it does well on iTunes, DVD, and Hulu. Fringe is making the network money even buried on the lowest rated night. I don't think it in danger of being dropped, and I'd say a 5th season is possible.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:11 a.m. CST

    Fringe is Done, Guys. Done.

    by Crow3711

    Anyone holding onto to hope otherwise is fooling themselves. This fourth season was a fucking gift that only happened because FOX didn't have time to come up with anything that might conceivably perform better on friday at 9. Fringe gave them a year to develop something else. They were given a gift fourth season, and the worst part about it, is that they are fucking it up and making the show less watchable by the week, in my opinion. This new season has come as close to sucking as anything I watch on tv, and its fucking hard for me to admit that. this whole "no peter" storyline is a fucking disaster. Anyone who thinks fox is actually going to spring for a 5th season is foolish. And I don't blame FOX. I wouldn't renew it either. It's got a small, dedicated fan base, but that's it. It's withering up and dying on fridays, and even some of the diehards, like me, don't even watch on fridays (DVR) anymore because its not must- see anymore. I think we should all be grateful we got as much Fringe as we did, and be happy that end of S2 into S3 was as unbelievably good as it was. Now all we can hope is that it ends in a decent manner without any possibility for renewal so they actually end it, and not end it with a small cliffhanger just in case. Just end it.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:23 a.m. CST

    Psych----best show you're not watching

    by thelordofhell

    Psych has been killing it this year so far.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:24 a.m. CST

    Reven8e is in a groove

    by thelordofhell

    Looks like a steady audience. Best looking women on TV in that show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST

    People don't DVR Live Sports

    by DougMcKenzie

    Which is why the value of sports programming has gone through the roof, especially, the college version. Get ready to have the weekly prime-time schedule inundated with it!

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:37 a.m. CST

    We should talk about Revenge

    by ArianeB

    The producers of the show knew exactly what they were doing with this show. After the theme setting pilot, they spent three episodes with "dirty tricks of the week", which were not impressive plot wise, but they were thick with character development stories. Then came episode 5 which blew the lid off the show, and episode 6 has built up the drama significantly. Suddenly, Revenge has become the best new drama on network TV, and if it keeps going like it is, by the end of sweeps I would not hesitate to cross off the "new" qualifier.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:42 a.m. CST

    The numbers that matter

    by Truxton Spangler

    have $ signs in front of them, and aren't made public. Body of Proof did pretty well in the ratings last year, so it's surprising to see it falter already. Based on ratings, Harry's Law was a surprise renewal, but it's a DEK show, and NBC is desperate, so... The best that could be said for Pan Am is that it's inoffensive, and innocuous, but that's also what's wrong with it. They need to decide what they want to do with the show, and do it. While it's nice to look at, it's not going to grab anyone and keep them tuned in. Blue Bloods usually wins its time slot, and it has the 'stache, so I doubt it's going anywhere. For a standard CBS cop show, it's actually not bad, no doubt helped by the gravitas of Selleck. He and Cariou offset Wahlberg nicely. Nikita is a fun diversion, and nice to look at. An Alex and Amanda sandwich would hit the spot.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:50 a.m. CST

    rsanta you've had some very intelligent posts in this talkback

    by Rebel Scumb

    and just to add to your points that it is not all FOX's fault, as much as they do handicap and sabotage alot of these shows, they also take chances on risky shows that ABC, NBC and CBS would never even order pilots for. The only reason ABC is even flirting with high concept stuff is because Lost was a runaway hit, and they've tried like hell to clone Lost and none of them have worked. Only fox would ever dream of greenlighting The Simpsons, Firefly, X-files, and many of the other shows mentioned. So they deserve some slack in that regard. I just keep hoping that the success of True Blood and Game of Thrones will encourage HBO or some other premium cable channel to take a chance on a ballsout scifi show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:55 a.m. CST

    I agree about Reven8e

    by Rebel Scumb

    I'm all caught up now and completely hooked.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST

    Re: crow3711

    by MemBirdman

    I agree, this is the last season. I actually think that this is meant to be the final season and not a hope to extend. They have to know that this season was a gift and I think they're writing with the intent of ending it this year. As for sucking, I do not agree. It has gone back to the "crime of the week" situation, but they had to do that to establish the current universe. Breaking Bad started out REAL slow this season as well, then turned out a latter half of the season that melted your face. I think Fringe is doing the same but it seems even more of a slow transition because of 22 episodes and pre-emptions by baseball (stupid Cardinals...). I'm willing to see it play out and send a fond farewell to some of the best characters that Fox has ever aired.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:26 p.m. CST

    Yeah, this is it for Fringe...

    by Billyeveryteen

    But it was a helleva ride.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:45 p.m. CST

    is the good wife actually good?

    by jsfithaca

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:47 p.m. CST

    I agree with rebel scumb

    by room23storeblogspotcom

    Fox has given more opportunities for Sci-Fi and action shows then any other network except for maybe CW. I'm curious though if Terra Nova is sucking the life from Fringe if a boycott of that show would help Fringe. I know that a number of Save Fringe campains popped up on Facebook last year and are already starting up already for this season. Fox acknowledged that things like that were what gave Fringe another season, so hopefully it will work again. Because the showrunners said that with the season 3 finale they would have done what they did reguardless of wiether or not it was renewed, which I could see happening again this season.

  • mentioned had they had the story roughly planned into season 5, and this was during season 3. For me Fringe isn't necessarliy a show I'm watching with an endgame in mind, pretty much the only main thing they would need to wrap up at this point is the observers, and I'm actually of the opinion that the best option would be not to provide any answers about them. Leave it up to interpretation and theory. I know that is probably not the popular opinion. I use to be the opposite ways with shows, but I've really changed my opinions about that. The main things I like to see resolved is character stuff, and I would like to see the show go out on its own terms. I completely agree that this will be the final season, and hopefully the producers/writers understand that its a miracle they are even getting a 4th season, and as such treating it as their final season. I wonder how the blu-ray/dvd sales have been for Fringe? While there's no reason for networks to take DVRs/illegal downloads into consideration, that has to be a factor.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Pan Am Not Going Anywhere

    by Marc Cerasini

    Sorry, but the ABC execs like it, they have a terminal to film inside for at least another season, and all those NYC tax breaks for filming in the city--in short, they double-down on PAN AM for at least another season. Fringe and Terra Nova can both get buried like the rotting corpses they are.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    I heard that Grimm had great ratings last night.

    by room23storeblogspotcom

    I'm curious what will happen next week with the 3 way competition.

  • It's an approach that (to my knowledge) has not been attempted, but in certain circumstances makes complete sense. Firefly would have been a good way to test that out. Low ratings for the show, and not particularly stellar return on the feature film in theatres. But the dvds sold like hot cakes. Now, there must be some business sense to just calculate approximately how many firefly fans there are, and how many would fork over money for a new season, or collection of episodes on dvd. So lets say they bean count that out to bringing in $30 million in sales. So why not then spend $15 million to put together a mini series or mini-season or tv movie with the same production values as the tv show. with that as the budget. You don't even really need to market it, because you're not seeking to broaden the audience, just capitalize on the existing fanbase. Do a bit of web promotion, it costs very little to just submit information to fan sites, a press release it is coming out. It markets itself at that point. Release it, make your money. If you make as expected, doubling your investment, do it again on the same budget. If you make a lot more, so much the better! You can either expand the amount of episodes you next time around or just keep doing what you're doing and making your money. It doesn't need to score $100 million because it cost so little by production standands. And I'm just using firefly as an example, its probably too late for that show, but just in general for scifi/genre/cult shows where there IS a fanbase and people who will pay for the content, but the average 18-49 demographic can't be fullfilled to make the books balance as a primetime show

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST

    I mean look no further to than the straight to dvd movie market

    by Rebel Scumb

    hundreds of low budget crappy movies churned out every year to wind up in those '2 for $12.99' bins at Walmart or where-ever. But they keep churning those out, so someone must be buying them. There is money to made. And thats for films in most cases with no pre-sold fanbase. An existing show, which has been cancelled and already built up a modest but loyal following would do a lot better. At least that's how I see it.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 1:10 p.m. CST

    Other ways of ending it

    by room23storeblogspotcom

    I would love a 5th season of Fringe to wrap things up and I actually still trust Fox to do the right thing. But I know that Joss Whedon is doing a Buffy Season 9 run of Comicbooks and Firefly Comics. Its not the same thing, but at least he's still telling the stories that he wants to tell on his own terms. I keep hearing about the Sci-Fi Network making an Event movie to actually tie everything up. Not sure if it will ever happen. But at least there are options in case of the worst case sinario.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Or the direct to DVD idea would be awesome also.

    by room23storeblogspotcom

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    I wouldn't count Fringe out yet.

    by Zarles

    The chart above shows a week that didn't air a new episode. That 0.5 rating is for a repeat. This season has been showing equal ratings to that of the end of last season, ratings that got it a renewal. DVR counts DO factor in, however. If Fringe maintains at least 2.0 rating after DVR+7, there's a very good chance it will get a 5th and final season. It's happened before.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 2:18 p.m. CST

    Everything under 2.0 on NBC is doomed

    by CCon99

    Those are just terrible numbers from NBC all around. Even The Office is now below the 3.0 mark. Shame for Prime Suspect it's a really good show with a great cast, I just don't get the low numbers it's gotten. It didn't even start with a good number, a lot of shows have a good first episode before it dies off, PS didn't even get that, it's like viewers are just programmed to stay away from that 10pm slot on NBC ever since that Jay Leno experiment failed. Even Parenthood is getting pretty terrible numbers for how good a show it is.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    The Good Wife

    by photoboy

    It will be a pity to lose The Good Wife, it's a pretty solid legal drama. I'm always on the look out for a substitute for Murder One, and while TGW isn't quite up to Murder One's standard, it is very enjoyable. As for Fringe, it's been a little dull since it came back, the writers need to up their game if this is going to be the last season.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Well all shows are kind of dull at this point in the season.

    by room23storeblogspotcom

    Theres usually a great Premiere and a good episode or 2 after that and then up until mid-season its all building toward a goal and usually not as good. wait until November sweeps for things to get great. Season 1 or Fringe wasn't great until mid season when David Robert jones showed up. Lost always followed this cycle also along with pretty much every show on air. November and February Sweeps episodes are almost always great, but everything else is usually building toward that.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 2:53 p.m. CST

    Fringe didn't even air here

    by lagomorph

    I don't know why I bother reading ratings analysis here. Fringe was pre-empted in the NY Metro market (and probably several others) so I don't put much stock in its ratings performance. That seems like an important distinction to make, no?

  • should at least be up on TV schedules enough to know that it was a rare game 7 of the World Series last night and Fringe didn't air. That said, it is sad how Fox has yet again fucked over a quality genre show, but let's see if it can stay above water long enough to give us a satisfying wrap up. Hopefully the idiot suits will give it a full season, but that's probably iffy.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 3:36 p.m. CST

    these predictions are bullshit

    by oisin5199

    there's no way CBS is cancelling their most critically acclaimed show, Good Wife. And CSI Miami is a standard. Fringe isn't going anywhere either, since it's doing pretty well for Friday nights and a lot invested in the show. Herc just likes to be the doomsayer. Does he have an even remotely accurate track record for these "predictions"?

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 3:43 p.m. CST

    In other TV news...

    by TopHat

    ...TeenNick aired SALUTE YOUR SHORTS! And not just any episode, either... It was the ZEKE THE PLUMBER episode!! Fucking. Awesome.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 3:49 p.m. CST

    They are bringing back In Living Color with no Wayans'

    by thelordofhell

    You would think they would have at least one Wayans in the show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    "Pan Am" & "Prime Suspect" are weak.

    by MisterManReturns

    NYC cop shows aren't going anywhere - it's the performances and writing in "Suspect" that doom it. "Pan Am" is failing, not because "mainstream audiences" are not smart enough to watch it, but because the characters and story are not interesting enough to give a damn about. I'm not convinced that ABC will keep producing a show with dwindling numbers, unless the foreign market is really good, and even then, they'll want to salvage Sunday night, with poorly rated "Desperate Housewives" season, they can rethink the entire night...depending upon how "Once Upon a Time" holds up.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    If NBC were smart...

    by Rick Bergmann

    they'd keep Prime Suspect on and let it build a following. They should also make the stories spread over multiple episodes. This works better for drama's, look at Homicide Life on the Street or the Shield. The problem is that network tv has ADD, if it isn't a hit out of the gate it is doomed. That is why more people are flocking to cable.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 5:21 p.m. CST


    by Hercules

    You're generally an excellent talkbacker so I am wounded that you did not notice my 100% accurate predictions for "The Playboy Club," "Free Agents," "H8R," "Charlie's Angels" and "How To Be A Gentleman." With regard to "Good Wife," multiple Emmy wins (not just nominations) did not prevent the cancellation of "Arrested Development."

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 5:40 p.m. CST

    If my dad watches it it's doomed

    by FrodoFraggins

    He relgiously watched Sarah Conner, Life on Mars, Detroit whatever it was called. He now watches Harry's Law, Body of Proof and Prime Suspect. I know the feeling being a scifi fan and watching so many good shows get crap ratings. Fringe is too expensive to justify keeping around another season on Friday nights. Once they explained the parallel universe I didn't really see anything interesting in the shows mythology and think it can end this season without much issue. I'm sure they'll wrap up Peter reappearing and hopefully they won't carelessly leave the fans with a big cliffhanger at the end, that is assuming they film before hearing about renewal.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 5:45 p.m. CST

    Prime Suspect is pretty good

    by Ninja Nerd

    It's a decent show and I like Bello a lot. The Cooler is one of my favorite flicks. Sadly, the show will probably get the axe. My favorite, can't miss show this year is Person Of Interest. I love it. This week's ep with Paige Turco was simply awesome.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 5:52 p.m. CST

    Does this mean Dan Fogler can resume his career as staggering man god?

    by Doctor_Strangepork

    You're a Tony winner and a movie star, sir. That sitcom was beneath you.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 6:07 p.m. CST

    In what world is Dan Fogler a "movie star"?

    by Xiphos_2

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 6:14 p.m. CST

    Revenge - or however you spell it -

    by arzbest

    is truly excellent! One of those shows that got by me initially but, due to the miracle of "On Demand", I'm all caught up and hooked. Loving every minute of it even though I have no idea where it's ultimately heading. How often can you say that about a show?

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 6:26 p.m. CST

    Horatio one liners are pure cheesy gold baby

    by Quartermass-87

    And the sun glasses are a character in and of themselves....I am surprised the glasses have never been nominated for best supporting actor. CSI Miami is the one CSI that actually embraces the cheese factor of the franchise...I mean hell does anyone remember that season finale from a few years ago where Horatio was shot and the camera shot of him laying there injured was actually a through the broken lens of his shades shot....too fucking silly.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 6:45 p.m. CST

    OK, maybe I'm a moron, so explain to me...

    by Chief Joseph

    Mr Talkbacker, how college football is the future of TV when the ratings are in the toilet? The fact it is or isn't DVRed doesn't matter. I agree with snm1266, they should axe that shit.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 6:50 p.m. CST

    Best Comedy no one is watching...

    by Chuck

    How is America not watching 'The league'? This show is by far one of the best things on basic cable. I hate football, but love this show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Can Nielsen nonsense go away now?

    by Andrew Coleman

    Sorry but I don't really care what some bitch is watching in Kentucky. I'll even sign a deal with Fox and only buy certain brands for an entire year to give Fringe another season. Television is dying because the execs are killing it. No one and I mean NO ONE really watches the X-Factor minus fat assholes in the midwest... Sports will always get prime time slot because everyone watches sports live... That will never go away. Most people I know watch Fringe... BUT they watch them on DVD or online or on DVR... Because most people I know like to be social on the weekends. Keep Fringe going Fox. They still to date have some of the best programming but still first Fire Fly and then if they kick this show off too early... Oh boy.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:03 p.m. CST

    why "Man Up" failed

    by professorjack

    I didnt see it but it has Dan Fogler in it and everything he does fails. Its a no brainer. Ang Lee can put him in a small role in a movie and it will fail financially and critically. The dude is incapable of being in anything good (in any way you want to define "good"). So there you go. Also, that youtube of him doing a Sam Kinison imitation..not that impressive. Its really isnt.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:04 p.m. CST

    college football

    by Xiphos_2

    isn't the future however when there are good match ups or important games then the rating are usually good and the bowls make money in December and early January. College isn't a constant rating juggernaut like the NFL is but it is, as far as I have read, dependably profitable which to the networks, is the bench mark standard for any show.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Fuck. Prime Suspect deserves some respect.

    by Freddy

    I actually started to like a cop show with a female lead, and they're gonna fucking cancel it? I agree with some of the criticism ... latest episode's toothpick munching was a little too much. Some performances could have been a little better. But overall Maria Bello, and most of the supporting cast, has done a fantastic job. Name another cop show with a female lead I can even take seriously. (You can't, it's never existed before.) It's really hard to sell someone who's actually seen female NYC cops that some pretty actress is an NYC cop. But Bello did it, and for that she deserves this show, and some more time. Come on. Do not fucking cancel it.

  • Live sports is like reality shows or the news, comparing it to something like Fringe isn't fair because it's a whole different type of television.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 8:21 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    I think the whole network system will be gone in 15 years time, or basically mothballed for the most part. Everything seems to be shifting to a 'on demand' format, where people will simply purchase the shows they wish to watch directly through things like netflix, or some other online system. Something akin to torrenting perhaps even but regulated and official. Or at the very least towards the cable system along the lines of the HBO model. when it does, the game will change completely because advertising won't figure into it, and if everything is done through online serve then even if you aren't 'pay-per-view'ing with each episode of a show (or paying for a season package) they will be able to track the exact sales figures for every show which will reflect their actual popularity and not what the selected nielson families choose. Then we can probably all complain how our favorite shows keep getting more expensive! But it will be closer to the format that publishing follows, which frankly I would prefer. I'm not one to channel surf or put on the tv to any random show just because i want something to watch. I have the shows I like, and thats all I watch. ANd a lot of people are getting that way now. We're becoming a culture of customizers, I think the MP3 player revolution really fed into that. Most people don't think of 'albums' anymore, they just have their play lists. I'm sure there will be some ultra affordable, advertising heavy version of tv that still broadcasts all the stuff 2nd run or whatever for people who don't care about following certain tv shows, and just want news, sports and something on the tv after work. But overall it will be a pay for content direct or pay for channel subscription format. Thats what I figure anyways.

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 8:41 p.m. CST

    The Mentalist

    by SmokingRobot

    I never get tired of smart people. Or good reinventions of Sherlock Holmes (which lets out RDJ).

  • Oct. 29, 2011, 9:39 p.m. CST

    Err, can_o_whoopass ...

    by catlettuce4

    .... you do realise "Prime Suspect" is just a rehash of "Prime Suspect", with the lead female cop (Helen Mirren) in a man's world. First episode - 1991 Much better, much grittier, and even IT wasn't original in that premise. Reheating old leftovers is never the same as cooking from fresh ingredients.

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 12:16 a.m. CST

    I expected to hate "Reven8e"

    by dockealy

    Or whatever the hell it's called...but I am so totally sucked into that show's trashy soap opera goodness.

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 7:02 a.m. CST

    RE: Costs and FX

    by AbramsPRIME

    "Fringe" rumored/semi official budget for season 4 is hovering just under $4 million/episode. It's been growing as cast costs go up every year and in 'Fringe's" case, the VFX have gotten more complex and numerous when they committed to the "parallel Earth" grand arc and the "digital doubling" of characters/actors when the 2 worlds intersect. Long running sci fi shows, like most shows, generally get more expensive as time goes on. Exceptions are when fading (ratings wise) shows on their last legs do a major budget cut to get another season or 2 ("ER" did it in it's last 3 or 4 years, "House" did it for this, it's likely final year and "Smallville" did a huge budget cut in Season 8 or 9, when they switched from 35mm film to HD video and pared some of the long running cast...though they also did give Tom Welling a big raise and a producer credit to convince him to sign on after his standard 7 year contract Tom, no show.). If "Terra Nova" becomes a long running show, it will surely go WAY beyond the $4million it's costing now in its first season. "V" didn't typically have 400 or so shots but it was a high count (in the mid 200's) due to their "virtual set", which basically meant greenscreen sets ala "Sin City" for all the scenes taking place on the spaceship (no actual sets were built for the spaceship interiors) as well as the obvious "spaceship hovering over cities" and creature shots.

  • The thing you have to remember is that the series is not owned by FOX's sister production company. It is owned by Warner Bros., which puts up a significant amount of the budget per season. (Rumor is that Warner is putting up a little over 50% this season.) Its return for a fifth season likely depends on whether Warner is willing to put up the money, maybe even increasing their percentage. I imagine this is what the FOX network will be negotiating on, arguing with Warner that the network is doing them a favor for airing it in the first place. So it is up to Warner to determine whether they need to invest more money in order to keep it on FOX for another season, so they can better get the entire series ready for syndication.

  • I think about all the shows (certainly some better than others) that were on from when ST:TNG started up in 1987, through until around 2005-2010: TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, B5, Farscape, SG1, SG:A, SG:U, Doctor who, BSG, Firefly, X-files, Fringe, andromeda, Space: A & B, Lexx, Dune miniseries', Caprica, Seaquest, Earth 2, etc. And now only Dr Who & Fringe remain. Terra Nova's started up, but i haven't heard anything particularly great about it thus far, and it's not really standard outerspace scifi either. Certainly all of those shows had varying degrees of quality and love from fans, but it's hard to argue with how nice it was to know the sheer volume of scifi that was on especially in the late 1990s. But now we live in a world where the scifi channel or syfy doesn't even want to have any science fiction anymore

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 9:13 a.m. CST


    by Freddy

    Nope, didn't know about the Mirren version, guess I haven't done my homework on this. Love Helen Mirren and will definitely check out the original. But my point wasn't really that the show was original, just that imho they had pulled off the tricky role of the female lead. Not many actresses can make that believable, which is probably why we see so few shows of this type ... as opposed to to the Charlie's Angels type shows, which don't even pretend to take place in the real world, and for which turning off your brain is the price of admission. Which come to think of it didn't work out so well for Charlie's Angels remake. And which I suppose reinforces your point about originality as well ...

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 9:15 a.m. CST

    Pan Am is being retooled, with a new show runner in charge...

    by Jim Jam Bongs

    I say all bets are off with where the series may go. They are currently doing *a lot* of focus testing on the series. Rumor suggests that the show could go on hiatus in a week, and be revamped for a February relaunch, with new regular characters added, and some written out. There is wild speculation that the stewardess working for the CIA storyline may either be expanded upon greatly, or dropped and her character written out. (Whether this aspect of the show is appealing to viewers or not -- that's one thing that the testing is supposedly trying to determine. I have heard conflicting theories about this.) The show is simply not pulling in the desired demographics for the Alpha-net --- young professional males and females. (It is drawing older women, your mother or grandmother, God bless them, but you get the picture.) My feeling is that they might retool the series into being more of a Desperate Housewives thing with 1960's stewardesses, and then go for that show's demographic, which is on its last legs anyway. I could see the CIA stewardess, young captain guy (Dean is that his name?), and the Indian guy (who's only a recurring anyway) all being written out and replaced, and Ricci's role beefed up. The craziest idea I've heard that was rumored to have been pitched? Should the series managed to make it to a season finale and if the ratings still stink, they deal with the JFK assassination... but, then in an inexplicable mindfuck on the audience, Kennedy survives. That is, America's Camelot era would not end, and the rosy, optimistic view of 60's America would continue into an alternate reality path starting in season two. I know -- this sounds fuck-crazy. But the idea would be not to do it in a Fringey, sci-fi way (where they would explain why this happened) but go the West Wing route, which when you think about it, was sort of sci-fi since it was set in an alternate-reality version of the U.S.. The idea is that it would get people talking about the show and what it would be daring to do in its season season.

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 11:32 a.m. CST

    sorry to wound you, Herc.

    by oisin5199

    anybody could have seen the Playboy Club and Charlie's Angels cancellations coming, along with those crappy sitcoms, but some of these predictions are major leaps. And CBS isn't Fox - they're not going to kill their Emmy cow. And whenever I look at critics blogs, the only CBS show that anyone talks about with any regularity is The Good Wife. I can't imagine that CBS would be that stupid. And it's not like I'm a fan. I've never seen the show. Hate to be cynical, but sometimes it seems like you make provocative statements to get a rise, to generate more response. And if it's true that you get paid by the length of your talkbacks, well... and yes, I know I'm contributing, so the strategy works.

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 1:10 p.m. CST

    Will Direct TV dropping FX....

    by BangoSkank

    ...have any impact on FX shows? I know fuck-all about ratings, but I'm curious about how FX viewership may drop as a result. Or does Direct TV have too small of a market share to matter? Either way it sucks balls for Direct TV customers... SoA, It's Always Sunny, American Horror, Justified, Louie and the League. I'm going to have a shit load of free space on the old DVR. The fact that I have to pick between FX and the NFL Season Pass is fucking lame.

  • I believe that comparison has more to do with the different ways each network runs its own business than it does with the ratings system. How is it the fault of the ratings system when one lower-rated show is protected by its network while a rival network with a slightly higher-rated show is less forgiving?

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    abc is trying to save pan am

    by john

    got a new showrunner they invested a lot into the show and dont want to see their money going down the drain btw...where is the love for psych...that show's audience continues to grow and btw....misfits starts tonite think americans dont crave a good super show? avg 9 mil views on hulu per epi if it was showing on would be the number 1 show

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 4 p.m. CST

    Have you even watched Pan Am, Herc?

    by Jaka

    You've predicted its cancellation more than once now and its still there. The ratings have leveled, and don't forget networks now monitor how many dvr and OnDemand views shows get as well. Plus, what other people have said about this in this talkback. I don't think Pan Am is going anywhere. Would be a shame if it did, because its actually a pretty fun watch. Maybe you should, ya know, actually watch some episodes.

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 4:20 p.m. CST

    jaka the show sux

    by john

    if it was meant to be an alternate reality take on the 60s...that would be ok but it isnt the storylines are inane and the dialogue is insipid

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 7:35 p.m. CST

    holy shit Jim Jam, I hope that isn't just fan wankery

    by soma_with_the_paintbox

    Cause I sure would start watching then. Like others have said, PanAm needs to find it's niche (definitely not Mad Men lite) and run with it. This is one bugfuck-crazy way to make that happen.

  • Oct. 30, 2011, 7:54 p.m. CST

    restyles, different strokes I guess

    by Jaka

    I like it.

  • Oct. 31, 2011, 5:25 a.m. CST

    Pan am

    by Rebel Scumb

    I only just found out that the girl in all the posters I see on the subway who looks a little bit like Cristina Ricci is infact Cristina Ricci!

  • Oct. 31, 2011, 10:43 a.m. CST

    Revenge rocks it!

    by ZodNotGod

    I gotta say ditto to “Revenge!” What a great show! I am a fan of “Dallas” and this one has many of that shows beats and manages to tell a compelling story without getting too campy, although Madeline Stowe is hilarious and very good as the hissing main harpy! The entire cast is good, not one slacker amongst them. The best part about the series is that I have no clue where its going….Emily Van Camp = yummy! It’s a breath of fresh air because it’s not a pretentious cop, medical or scumbag lawyer show, (although the good wife is aces). Being a fan of Dallas and Knots Landing, I miss the serialized prime time soap opera and Revenge fits in nicely.

  • Oct. 31, 2011, 5:55 p.m. CST

    agreed zodnotgod, its a shame that Revenge wasn't a cable show

    by Rebel Scumb

    with nudity and swearing, although in a way it would probably be more prone to aiming towards being a 'serious' premium show, and less about being a delicious guilty pleasure

  • Nov. 1, 2011, 7:08 a.m. CST


    by ZodNotGod

    I'm glad its not on cable, at least we get a full season of 22 episodes and not the usual 9. Network seems to keep them focused on the story and not venture off into distractions that so many cable series do no matter how great they are; BSG! Swearing wouldn't help, but nudity from Miss Van Camp would be a nice treat. I'm not sure how far they can use this premise though, how many people screwed her father over? I'd think she would run out of victims eventually. Fun while it lasts! I hope the girls are remembered at Emmy time, Stowe especially.

  • Nov. 1, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST

    Now Hold On A Dang Sec!

    by Guy Steele

    ManUP Actually isn't all that bad... but more so... it DOESN'T HAVE A CANNED LAUGH TRACK!!! In this household we no longer watch any sitcom with one! I kinda wanted to like Two Broke Girls... but auggh! Laugh Track abounds. I also agree with a few posters here... Please put Whitney out of its misery! As for Prime Suspect: Not bad, wife enjoys it (the lead is so like the lead in In Plain Sight) but I hate that truly fake sounding news bulletin that is used during cut-to establishing shot scenes. As for Fringe... IMHO Best true Sci-Fi show in years. I don't really put LOST in the same category though, if I did LOST would be #1 and Fringe #2. I know most here LOVED The X-Files... And I get that (Kind of) But tell me what Sci-Fi show has the kind of acting and plotting that Fringe puts on episode after episode? It is Mos Def the 2nd best show Bad Robot has created. I would love to have Alias in this battle but Abrams kinda got lost (no pun intended) with that show.