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China Bans Cartoon Network!

Oh no! China has BANNED OUR BELOVED CARTOON NETWORK! That's pretty extreme, even for a communist regime.

They seem to have a particular issue with Time Warner...First, they banned an edition of Time Magazine, and blocked CNN during the 10th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, and they've banned TNT (OH NO, NO NITRO!!!), but the Cartün Natverk? Quoth the Zhonguo Gonghe's Ren himself, "Tamen dou hai renshi tamen ziji zuo de dongxi." Huh? Ni zhen de ma? Bu yi wei ran. As the master says, "Lao ji fu li zhi zai qian li."

A tidbit from Reuters:

A foreign media consultant, who wished to remain anonymous, said Cartoon Network's exile may reflect a move away from overseas children's programs in China.

In October, the government removed children's programming from a list of categories of foreign content that Chinese television stations were permitted to buy for rebroadcast, the consultant said. Sports, music and science made it onto the list.

"Some decision was made along the line not to allow Bugs Bunny in anymore," he said.

The Communist Party's battle for the hearts and minds of its population begins at a very young age.

Recent children's shows have included the likes of "Motherland, I Love You," which features scores of kindergarten-aged children gripping miniature national flags, and responding to questions from the host such as: ``When you think of the motherland, is it more like your mummy or daddy?"

Okay, maybe I'm lacking the other guy's perspective, but if I was one of the people doing this stuff, I'd occasionally flip out over just how FREAKY this stuff is. Please people, enact market reforms and free elections, and let the Cartoon Network spread Snagglepuss and Shaggy to every corner of the great motherland! I mean, if Jiang and Zhu don't start opening things up, China might just find itself left out of a big chunk of the new tech and media economy. Zoinks!

Post 'em if you got 'em

-El Cosmico

mail me atelcosmico@austin.rr.com

Readers Talkback
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  • Feb. 4, 2000, 4:22 a.m. CST

    MOTHERLAND

    by mr_ripley

    Who cares if the Chinese see Scooby Doo? It is much more important that America imports "Motherland, I Love You". I don't blame the Chinese for getting rid of TNT. If only America had such taste... The best show on cable, hands down, is the Japanese IRON CHEF (on the FOOD NETWORK). MOTHERLAND sounds equally sublime, and more subversive to boot! Forget those 'toons. I want my MOTHERLAND!

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 4:47 a.m. CST

    You're just figuring this OUT, El Cosmico?!

    by Brundledan

    I mean really, man, what did you expect? China's been Red for fifty years now. Is it really so surprising that this evil nation, in addition to torturing and murdering millions of its own people, would BAN that icon of Americana, the Cartoon Network? You watch your ass, China. We've got cartoons on OUR side, Goddammit, and one day your people WILL KNOW the glories of Yogi Bear, Fred Flinstone, and Dexter. I swear it.

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 10:03 a.m. CST

    Who's your Motherland?

    by XBill

    Isn't that a little bit biased already? Asking little kids to say whether the MOTHERland is more like mom or dad? Imagine the poor father's horror when his kid says he reminds him of big cuddly mommma China. Now, I think such a show would be a great import to the USA. Bill Cosby watch out! Or, maybe we can send them Cosby with his show....yeah! We'll call it: "Kids Say The Darndest Things Then Get Imprisoned Or Executed For Their Subversive Beliefs." Or KSTDTTGIOEFTSB for short.

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Commie Bastards!

    by V-Darn

    Well, someone had to say it. Maybe we could start some sort of grass roots subversion campaign by sneeking in episodes of the Powerpuff Girls, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast, and Scooby Doo across the border. Aw, just skip it...

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Red China

    by Squirrel

    Serves em right. Now I love the Cartoon Network and all the programs on it. But one has to admit that childrens programming in America may not be as blatant as "Motherland I love your", But it is more insidiously cpatalist. Think about it is a communist country gonna run a program where the fricking theme song is like "Gotta buy them all!" Captaslism and marketing run deep in our childrens television, and I for one think that china has a damn good reason to ban such influences. . .

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 12:51 p.m. CST

    What luck

    by LSHB

    And these are the children that were lucky enough not to be drowned because their parents wanted a boy.

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 3:15 p.m. CST

    And you are,...??

    by Stewman

    Who the hell are we to tell a country what they should broadcast? Obviously this easily falls into a politcal debate, but honestly, it IS their country. Eventually US media will get into China. Eventually US media will be everywhere and all the artists of the other countries will be squelched by ours (look at the European film business)... I can't wait for everything to be the same, can you?

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 3:33 p.m. CST

    Give us our motherland!

    by Mrs.Nesbet

    I agree with the previous comrade. We need our motherland! I would be willing to pay good money for some episodes of everyone's favorite communist propoganda. Anyone have an idea a starting place to look?

  • Feb. 4, 2000, 7:43 p.m. CST

    Gimme my ChaCha Cartoon Network Asia!

    by Dr. Duran Duran

    So the residents of Hong Kong won't get to see their national hero's exploits anymore (do they just call him 'Phooey' there?) Tragedy. What I want to know, Cartoon Network Asia, is why are you not letting Akazukin ChaCha play here in the States? We know the English dub is in the CN library -- it was on CN Asia not too long ago. You have got to bring this thing over. And while the very thought of "Motherland, I Love You" is intriguing, as a true patriot, I must defer to our homegrown animated propaganda. Remember, Disney WW2 propaganda not only is entertaining, but also helps the young modern tykes fight fascism.

  • Feb. 5, 2000, 1:43 a.m. CST

    Wow...

    by Andy_Christ

    That's almost as creepy at saturday morning on TBN. ("Praise the lord and pass the ammunition, children!")

  • Feb. 5, 2000, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Pirated VCDs save the day!

    by trollz

    I just spent a year in Beijing, and the Cartoon Network was always good for a dose of Americana every now and then. It's too bad that is no longer an option. But don't despair for all those poor Chinese children! There is an amazing trade in pirated VCDs almost anywhere you go in China, and lots of subversive American cartoons to buy for a pittance... shen ti jian kang wan shi ru yi!

  • Feb. 6, 2000, 3:36 p.m. CST

    No TNT = no B5?

    by Talon

    Aside from Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles and the occasional anime, the Cartoon Network seems to be a repository for cartoon crap. Not that there aren't good cartoons out there, they just don't show up on the toon network. But but but... if TNT (aka Dynamite Station:) has been axed in China, doesn't that mean they don't get Babylon 5 anymore? Forget everything else, that REALLY sucks.

  • Feb. 6, 2000, 6:26 p.m. CST

    Hey, look on the bright side...

    by Jinxo

    I always say look for the good in any situation. This means those Chinese kids will never have to again be exposed to the Superfriend's Wonder Twins Zan & Jana. Or even worse, Wendy and Marvin. If only some communist could have protected my childhood. And don't forget Gary Coleman as that freakin' angel. Make the bad toons stop! I agree too that we need to get that other show brought over here. Too think I have gone my entire life without figuring out which of my folks is more like Red China. I'd say my Dad I guess since he too didn't care much for cartoons. I guess I'd have to say my Mom would be more like Croatia although I can't put into words exactly why.

  • Feb. 6, 2000, 8:09 p.m. CST

    What the Hell?

    by BIC

    To this day I am still amazed by people's concepts of government. To this day we wonder why China focusses on Nationalism to such a great extent, but its obvious that they have to deal with many different forms of hostility from democratic countries around the world. I myself am a great supporter of democracy. I do not, however, think that speaking badly about a group of people for their country's government is fair. Need I remind all of you that most of today's great movies are considered to be extremely left wing?

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 1:28 a.m. CST

    BIC: Let's Not Beat Around the Bush

    by Brundledan

    "Nationalism" is the extremely, extremely, NICE term to describe the basis of China's government, but even so, it isn't really accurate. China's government is COMMUNIST, the single most destructive ideology in the history of the world. China's government has murdered untold millions of its own people, all in the name of Communism. And yet there are those brave Chinese who dream of freedom, who know our Declaration of Independence better than WE do (it's sad), and who are struggling to break free from their enslavement at the hands of their own government. Meanwhile, we're sending Beijing technology with which they can build missiles to aim at our cities. China will emerge in this century as our greatest enemy, and we'd do well to remember this. Remember their threat to nuke Los Angeles, if we attempted to come to the aid of Taiwan?

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 10:21 a.m. CST

    Speaking badly

    by XBill

    Speaking personally, I'd have to say that my dad is like Saudi Arabia, in that he is dead, has been cremated, and is now just a pile of ash in an urn. My mom, on the other hand, is like Ireland, in that she is green. Now, as for BIC's comments, it's obvious that Chinese people apparently like being beaten and tortured and otherwise abused, or else they wouldn't put up with it. Also, I think the Jews must have done something really bad to make Hitler so mean to them.

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 12:26 p.m. CST

    Yee-ha!

    by mulberry

    I really can't believe the tone this discussion has taken. There are very many just and clear reasons for criticising the regime in power in China. Almost all of the respondents seem informed by bigotry and 1950's McCarthy-ite propoganda than by outrage at suppression of free speech. I would hate to assume that all of those correspondents were American, but the Gung-ho mentality seems to insinuate that. Non-Americans can appreciate the irony when residents of a country which forces children to supplicate to a flag in their schools rage on about brainwashing, when residents of a country which leads the western world in murder rates (and state executions) rage on about the brutality of another country, and when residents of a country some of whose regions favour creationism over evolutionary theory rage on about dogma. Critise their actions when and as they, rather than criticising your bogey-man image of them. M

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 3 p.m. CST

    Why did my post go to the top

    by XBill

    hey, i just posted something hilarious....it went to the top though. check it out!

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 4:13 p.m. CST

    Mulberry: Breathtaking Ignorance

    by Brundledan

    Mulberry, your post was at least good for a few chuckles. But calling us "bigots" because we are angry at what the Chinese government has done to its people is a smear, not an argument, and insinuating that the Chinese and the American governments are nearly on the same moral plane would be funny if it weren't so ridiculous. Tell you what: Get back to us after you're run down by a tank, in broad daylight, for standing up for your basic rights as a human being. Or when your government comes to your house and murders you and your entire family for openly criticizing it.

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 4:30 p.m. CST

    HA!

    by BIC

    I'm gonna have to support M on this one. In 1945 the us government was tryint to decide whether or not to drop a device called an Atomic Bomb on Japan. The government asked her armed forces divisions to collaborate on reports to aid in their decision. 19 reports were made. 18 of these reports agreed that a land attack on the japanese would be successful and easy. The Japanese had been "conditioned" at this time and were too scared to fight anymore. Casualties were estimated at under 5,000 in such an attack. ONE group, the US Navy, estimated casualties at 1 million in such an attack, this report was also obscure and out of date. All parts of the State agreed that such an action would not be necessary, in fact the Japanese were ready to surrender, they only wished to know the Americans definition of "Absolute Surrender". Instead of waiting, or making a land assault they dropped the bombs anyway. But it was for the forces of good right? Attacking civilians instead or military targets is in the best interest of a reasonable and just state yes? This was not the case, the bombs were dropped to show the world who the new super-power in town was and to show the Russians that they could do it. The next 44 years were a whirlwind of propaganda and bigotry in the States. Some of that still remains today. No one else in the world attacks Cuba's policies as much as the States, because no one else has such an anti-communist background. Perhaps its time to re-examine the history books, ANY history book not written by an American. Stop cheering "we won we won we won" and ask yourself at what moral cost. China has done bad things in the past, but if anyone were to actually study Chinese history and current affairs with their own eyes instead of the eyes of the media, they might find a different story. Please, dare to be a little more open minded and a little less programmed. -BIC

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 4:37 p.m. CST

    Sick of the Anti-Americanism

    by Brundledan

    BIC, there's no way to argue with someone who pulls "facts" out of his ass, so I will merely say that you are full of shit. Perhaps you should actually READ a history book. Remember, it's easy to be "open-minded" when you've got nothing upstairs to begin with.

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 4:40 p.m. CST

    To Brundledan

    by BIC

    Although the Chinese government is Communist in name, it is not so in practice. Their structure is more socialist... Like Italy in many ways. However, to suggest that a form of government is destructive is a little silly. A people's leader can be bad, but its pretty much safe to say that 1 billion people have the same moral scales that Americans and other peoples do. Would you think that it was ridiculous if 1 billion chinese said that the US was evil because they were democratic? Democratic states have killed more people in wars than any other in history. Germany was democratic when Hitler was elected. Thailand isn't really our problem you see. There was a column in the paper that depicted Jean Chretien and Bill Clinton when asked a question. Bill asked Jean "Why is Thailand different from Kosovo?" Bill answered "Because the Chinese could kick our ass" Since the US can't do anything about the chinese physically, they just have a media that bad-mouths them at every oportunity. Ask yourself where you get your information...on tv and in the papers or in history books.

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 5:33 p.m. CST

    China

    by The Vok

    I spent time in China last year. Its form of government, its problems, its traditions ... they are all unique in the world. China's is the oldest continuous civilization in the world, yet has seen massive changes in the last century, particularly in the shift from poverty to wealth. Is the current government rotten? Sure. But guess what, up here in Canada, we don't get the Cartoon Network either. Our socialist system supports Canadian content, so while a channel like Teletoon can buy Canadian rights to Cartoon Network series, it also supports the local industry. It's not a perfect system but I'd say it's a lot better than simply giving in to multinationals. Also, we as a country get along with China a lot better than the U.S. does. While Turner's having trouble extending his media grip, Canadian companies like Cinar and Nelvana are co-producing cartoons with Chinese companies and selling them around the world. It is now possible to make a profit on a professionally-produced TV series without it ever airing in the U.S.! These are just thoughts to keep in mind. As for the post'er who said democratic countries kill many people in wars, that's true, but certain governments (Stalin's comes to mind) have killed millions of their own people without the world taking as much notice. Is communism evil? No, it's just a theory. But the governments of countries like Russia, China and Cuba have encouraged rampant corruption and abuses on a scale we North Americans are fortunate never to have experienced.

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 6:21 p.m. CST

    Final Answer?

    by XBill

    To all those who are saying that communism isn't an evil government, I retort thusly: Any leader of a Communist government who is evil makes that government evil DE FACTO. For, as we have all been taught (by MOTHERLAND and all our other fave shows), that leader IS the government. Anyone seen the new Chinese game show 'Who Wants To Be A Political Prisoner?'

  • Feb. 7, 2000, 11:01 p.m. CST

    anti-American anarchist apes beware!

    by My Computer

    America -is- the greatest nation on this planet. We were the founders of true democracy, which we fought very hard to obtain from the evil British Empire, thanks to Lafayette and the French. The media, which is run by the free individuals of our union, may be subversive when it comes to saying "Let's all go out to the lobby..." during reel time, but this has nothing to do with our government - Save for the fact that our government allows us so many individual freedoms. Our country was set into being with the greatest of intentions, and we move forward with the greatest of intentions. It is -not- America's ambition to brainwash other nations with this radical concept called 'individual rights'. We are in no way forced to salute the American flag. Many Jehovah's Witnesses in our school system choose not to and this is widely accepted. To the same extent, keep in mind that our government is not influencing the murder rate. Capital punishment is ultimately decided by the people, as well. We elect the lawmakers and representitives which pass the legislation to execute criminals. And for the love of Christ, we don't need monarchs, dictators, or jackass communist party losers to tell us what we can and can't watch on our tv. Thank you.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 12:59 a.m. CST

    To Brundledan

    by BIC

    Thanks big guy, but after a few years of majoring in Political Science, I don't need you to tell me what I do and don't know. By the way, if you were to take a course in logic you would find a term called "ad hominem". I've posted on this term before. It's when you attack a person instead of his/her arguments. If you were ever to take any sort of higher level seminar course you would have encountered it. Myself, I learned about it in an argumentative essay writing class in first year university. Maybe you have learned these things and just chose to ignore them? I wouldn't say that you seem like a silly or stupid person, just a little misguided, that's all. :-) And for the record, I think that the United States are a great country, I'm just against widespread bashing based on little or no fact. We all have skeletons in our closets, some of us just aren't willing to acknowledge them. Remember, "History is always written by the victor" -Sir Winston Churchill.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 2:27 a.m. CST

    Canada is worse!

    by Kraco

    If you think it is a travesty that China does not allow it's citizens to see the Cartoon Network, you should have some real sympathy for those of us in Canada. The Canadian goverment has very strict laws regarding what channels we are allowed to see. It is against the law for me to watch HBO, TNT, TCM, Showtime, AMC, Cartoon Network, Comedy Central, MTV, Nick at Nite, Sci Fi Channel, MSNBC, and the Fox News Channel. There may be more, but I wouldn't know because I can't watch them. If it's not bad enough that the cable companies up here do not offer these channels, but it is illegal for me to buy a DirecTV or Dish Network satellite dish. Instead, I must buy a Canadian dish, that does not provide any of the above mentioned channels. Then, to add insult to injury, the Canadian cable companies replace the US commercials with Canadian commercials. This is normally not a big deal, but it means that we don't get to see ANY of the good SuperBowl commercials. Instead we are treated to the same crappy Canadian commercials we have already seen for months. I WANT MY HBO!!!!!!!

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 2:54 a.m. CST

    BIC...

    by Brundledan

    ANYONE can twist numbers and statistics to fit their view of the world. Now, I may not have a political science degree, but neither I nor anyone else NEED one to understand that China, along with ALL Communist governments, is a brutal regime. I mean, how many different ways can I say it? The Communist governments of China, Cuba, and the late Soviet Union are all alike in one simple regard: THEY KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE. By the THOUSANDS. And, over the years, by the MILLIONS. To criticize the party line is an almost certain death sentence. Make all the apologies for them you want; I would suggest that you keep in mind the image of that lone Chinese student standing before the tank in Tiananmen Square, that voice crying for freedom, destined only to be crushed by the iron fist of the Chinese government. It is one of the most moving and powerful images of the 20th Century, and I think that one picture says all that needs to be said. As for your "ad hominem" remarks: I, as a George Lucas critic, am all too aware of the tactic. I would urge you not to be so hypocritical in cluck-clucking to me about it.

  • How about murdering Native Americans, forcing them out of their land and driving them into reservations? Or how about rounding up all the Japanese, stealing their property and shipping them off to internment camps? I'm going to assume many of you grew up during the Cold War, and were forcefed this stuff in high school, to have such one-sided views of political parties. Seeing China as a "murderer" and "evil" is going to the extremes of over-generalization, don't you think? The same things can be stretched and applied to America. Do you think that all government officials in China must be evil because they practice communism? You NOTHING of their circumstances.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 2:26 p.m. CST

    Brundle...

    by BIC

    I didn't insult your person. In fact, I said that you did not seem stupid or silly. Is calling someone misguided an insult? No, its saying that I don't agree with your arguments, which is the whole point of a discussion. Was the incident in the square wrong? FUCK YES! It was one of the most evil signs of oppresion that this world has seen this century. Do the Chinese think just as poorly of the Americans as the Americans do of them? Yes, they do. If you were told by your countrymen that China had attacked every democratic government that had ever existed, simply because they were democratic, would you find that offensive? Because that is the truth of the US and Communism. Someone posted that if China were to shift to democracy and capitalism, millions would die...they probably would at this point. I'm not trying to twist numbers, just to point out that many countries have done terrible things in the past, and they aren't considered evil. No country is "Evil". One last thing, if you have time someday, look into what happened to the military figures who shot the protestors in the square, you might be surprised.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Niiice:

    by My Computer

    Japan and China have quite a history of cruelty and injustice to each other, particularly during World War II, when the Japanese conducted some very cruel medical tests on Chinese prisoners and the Chinese army had a habit of throwing infant Japanese onto pikes. You can justifiably say that the atomic bombs America dropped may have been morally unjustified, but it did bring closure to the war....at the expense of bringing about something far worse - the Nuclear Age. Regardless, the Axis forces HAD to be stopped. As far as China is concerned, their government has a history of disregard for the rights of all living things on this planet. Their fisherman regularly break conservation laws and take whatever they catch in their nets. This has global consequences. Their children are forced into a labor at a young age. And then there is Tibet, which they invaded only to drive out the peaceful Dalai Lama. After the exile of His Holiness, they used Tibet for nuclear weapons construction and nuclear waste disposal as an added touch. More recently, they have built a missile base not far of the shores of Taiwan to further threaten the independent state. Clearly, the Chinese government and their neighboring Korea are a reckless, destructive force that will continue to be a problem in this century. They have nuclear and ICBM capabilities, a booming space industry, and a mindset that says "We must have more....At all costs."

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 5:40 p.m. CST

    Whose computer?

    by BIC

    The Axis powers HAD been stopped already. The Japanese were in surrender negotiations at the time of the bomb dropping. They had recently asked the US what "absolute surrender" meant because they did not want to lose their sovereignity. As far as using "a booming space industry" and "nuclear capabilities" as an attack point, the US has those things too. Canadians aren't scared of the US for those reasons, and we aren't scared of China either. Not because we're sooooo tough, but because another nuclear war on this planet is very unlikely. It's not rational and it won't happen again. Twice in the 90's the US has seriously interferred with another country's sovereignity. Once in Kosovo, when they were NOT supported by the United Nations or many of the other countries surrounding the area and the other in Iraq. The Iraquis were only a concern to the US because the government didn't want any one country to have a monopoly on middle-eastern oil. Because if they did, the US would have to pay more for it. As I've said, there is an equal example of unjust actions on both sides. What about slavery in the US? Illegal immigration of Chinese workers in the 1800's to build railroads? They weren't paid much better than the slaves. Capital Punishment? Please, The US supports barbaric activity on all sides. So do other countries. It's nothing new, its just fun for you people to say that communism is responsible.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Jerrol - Huh?

    by Peirce

    Jerrol

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 7:15 p.m. CST

    BIC: My Computer's Response

    by My Computer

    At the time the United States split the atom, reports confirmed that Japanese scientists were already in the process of researching atomic power. Before the first bomb was dropped, a Japanese submarine was found carrying a shipment of D20 in the pacific - A component essential for nuclear reactors. If we had not dropped the bomb, many more American lives would have been lost. The major difference between the US and Korea/China is that the US has taken steps towards disarmament in the last decade. More importantly, any nation that can't feed its own people but has nuclear potential is not only barbaric, but a failure even by communist standards. "Each according to his needs" my ass. A nuclear disaster on this planet is highly likely, and this is a major misconception on the part of most people. Your argument seems to be that its not rational to use nukes...(because its almost suicide)...but this does not mean governments will NOT use nukes. There have been SEVERAL incidents in the last decade of close calls. Particularly in 1992, when the Russians mistook a weather satellite for a US first strike and the fate of the world was in the hands of an alcoholic - one Boris Yeltsin. His restraint saved the world. I also remind you that China AND Russia have both threatened the US with nukes in the past two MONTHS alone. Once over Taiwan, the other time over Chechnya. In the case of Kosovo, we found evidence of mass graves - another holocaust, and it was necessary for us to intervene to prevent human atrocity. I'll agree, it also had to do with maintaining a balance of power. Iraq was practically the same thing. We couldn't let the oil control in the middle east shift in the favor of the arab nations. Both the US and Israel have been quite fair (relatively speaking) in our dealings with the arab nations. We do not take part in terrorism except to stomp it out. And the Israeli army releases TEN arabic prisoners for ONE ethnic jew. Never compare the US with atrocities committed by communist nations. If you trully think there's no difference, I'll put you on the first flight to Beijing myself so you can praise Karl Marx for his ingenuity. Make no mistake about it. All governments with rigid structure whether they be communistic or dictatorships are only delaying an economic crisis. The US has always integrated flexibility into its system and therefore, is fairly safe from a structural collapse.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 9 p.m. CST

    China and Japan

    by The Vok

    The conflict between China and Japan is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, it went on for years and years before peace was settled midway through this century. And as for Japan's part in WWII, I visited Hiroshima last year (just before I was in China) and it's not about blaming the U.S. for a nuclear incident, it's about everyone trying to create peace. The text in the museum includes apologies on the part of Japan for its offences at the time. But don't laugh off China as a threat; it has the largest land army in the world, one that continues to threaten to take Taiwan by force if necessary (and why? The Chinese that went to Taiwan were exiled there by Mao's revolution; why does the Communist party want Taiwan as part of China? And why do the U.S. and, yes, my country, Canada support a 'one China policy'? Greed, that's why. The prospect of an even bigger trading partner. But I digress ....). The situation with Cartoon Network in China is a strange one; as I understand it, what's been cut off is the English-language version that was beamed into tourist hotels and such, not the Chinese-translated version; but I could be wrong, maybe both feeds are being censored. But I have a real problem with the assumption that everything American is naturally great. Canada doesn't open its doors to, say, American banks the way other nations do (like Australia and even China (in Hong Kong)) yet we have lots of competition (our government is more likely to prevent mega-mergers than the U.S. government is) and our banks post large profits. Hey, large enough that I resent them, but at least they're Canadian, with very limited foreign ownership. I don't want American culture to take over my country. Should we be able to get HBO? Of course. But the Sci-Fi Channel sucks, it's all censored, and a lot of other U.S. networks are also second-rate compared to our own. We should pick and choose our culture, not have it forced down our throats. As for communism, I agree it hasn't worked on a large scale, but there are some smaller European countries that lately haven't turned out nearly so bad. There are also socialist countries that are arguably freer than the U.S. is. You guys can't even burn your flag, what's with that?! And I sure as hell wouldn't want to be wrongfully convicted in Texas. Am I saying Canada is paradise? No, we've got lots of problems. But I don't see any value in anyone saying their country's the best in the world, and I almost invariably find that those people haven't travelled much.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 9:56 p.m. CST

    You guys need some damned perspective

    by Niiiice

    Who, exactly, are you addressing with the vague word "they"? It's so easy to cast blame, when the enemy is a faceless, characterless entity. The "government" is a blatant overgenerilzation as well. So I guess Mr. Chinese Postman is inherently evil as well? There have been sweeping ecomonic reforms in China that have pushed it further towards capitalism than ever. And please, don't base all your feelings off of what the media and TV has been forcefeeding you. Don't forget that the precious US GOVERNMENT selected what could and could not be taught in high school about Russia and communism during the Cold War. Looks like that resulted in a whole "die commie die" generation. And to My Computer: "They have nuclear and ICBM capabilities, a booming space industry, and a mindset that says "We must have more....At all costs." ".....wow, you've just described the United States! Manifest Destiny, anyone?

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 10:11 p.m. CST

    Canada vs. the United States

    by My Computer

    Canada is just derivative of American culture. Its America II, and like most sequels, its no match for the original. The USA doesn't force any of its media down people's throats. We sell it to them, and they gladly purchase it because its much better than the piss poor crap their media produces. Just imagine if America has lost the Revolutionary War. We'd all be forced to watch Mr. Bean, Blake 7, and Red Dwarf the rest of our lives. No Star Wars....No Indiana Jones...Just endless reruns of Benny Hill on the BBC. It'd be a nightmare. That's why Japan used Frank Lloyd Wright to design their earthquake proof skyscrapers. Out of all their resources, they knew where to go to for the best architects. America. That's why China, Hong Kong, and Korea run amok with pirated copies of Star Wars, StarCraft, and anything else they can get their grubby hands on, illegally, to make a profit. America is the Coruscant of Global Commerce. We lead the world in economic prosperity, technological innovation, and aesthetic ingenuity.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 10:43 p.m. CST

    Niice:

    by My Computer

    America may indeed have many greedy individuals within its booming economy, like any other nation, but our military actions are most unlike the military actions of China in the last century. Even after we spent tons and tons of money to level Kosovo, we spent MORE money to compensate them for the destruction of their buildings. Unlike China or Russia, who will occupy a territory, ship all useable resources to the motherland, and move in a garrison while they fortify it. Just look at Berlin, prior to the 90s. If you were caught trying to climb the Wall to go from West to East, you'd be accused of lunacy! Clearly, the democratic side of this post-WWII partition fared better than the communist side. This is because Americans have a much higher regard for human rights than any communist nation. Look at all the money we've given to Russia to make up for THEIR mistake of having a rigid government. We even offered to build advanced nuclear detection sites so they wouldn't perceive our new anti-nuke tech as a first strike initiative. They're losers. Just face it. Again, why is it that so many Cubans risk their lives on a daily basis to make it to Miami? They're not holding a biathalon! America is a land of opportunity, and everyone in the world knows it.

  • Feb. 8, 2000, 11:02 p.m. CST

    America II?

    by BIC

    Heh...that's pretty funny. Do Canadians and americans have much in common? Yep. Sure do. Not their education systems though. US is ranked in the twenties last I checked... we're in the top five. What about health care? Oh, I forgot, you barely have any! If I break my arm, insurance doesn't pay for it to be fixed, my country does. The cost for a post-secondary education is also much lower in Canada... why? Because my country helps to pay for me to go to University. Yours can't say the same. The quality of post secodary education is also FAR higher. Whereas the US has many A class Universities and Canada only has one, the average class of University in Canada is 'B'. Its a 'D' in the States by the way. HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY... no country is more religious about ANY sport... US included. Did I mention that we abolished slavery 100 years before you? Oh yeah, and we don't carry guns, it's illegal up here. No death penalty either. If we want, we can burn our flags too, not that I'd ever want to. And WE don't have people commiting treason by flying Confederate Flags in our south. Should I go into crime? Or perhaps you'd like to talk about Vietnam a little? Oh yeah, America II. Have you ever been to Canada? I'm sure that you have an aunt that lives up here right? Canada has its problems, but one of them is not being too much like the US.

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 1:35 a.m. CST

    Treason?

    by Brundledan

    BIC, the more I listen to you, the more I wonder if that political science degree went to nought. Kindly explain to us all why displaying the Confederate flag is "treason".

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 7:30 a.m. CST

    One Flag, One People

    by BIC

    The raising of another flag is an dissention between a posibly revolting group and the American people. The Confederate now represents a group of political offshoots who were defeated in the Civil War. Although those who raise that flag do not intend to start another civil war, they are, by raising the flag, making treasonous implications. Will they ever be brought to hand by the law for such a thing? Nope, never. But it is still treasonous activity. If you burnt an American flag, you'd probably get off too. But under penal codes, that falls into high treason. No biggie right? Treason is kind of a joke nowadays anyway. Unless you shoot your general or something.

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 7:33 a.m. CST

    Nuclear Powers.

    by BIC

    1.Japan didn't get Nuclear power until the sixties as far as I know. This indicates to me that they weren't that close to achieving it in '45. When the US got the bomb, it was estimated that the Russians wouldn't be able to make their own until at least '53. Too bad it was only in '48. 2.The Arabic Nations DO have control of oil. The US didn't want ONE country to have more control. Especially a country that had poor relations with the US. Don't get me wrong on this, Saddam is a Yahoo crazy Mofo, but his people no longer have any sovereignity.

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 2:56 p.m. CST

    BIC you ignorant slut

    by Peirce

    Why is national health care so great? I think the idea is stupid. People from all over the world come to the US for health care. Saying the US barely has any health care couldn't be more wrong. In the US it is illegal for a hospital to turn someone away, wheather they can pay or not. You might be able to say we are lacking health care insurance, but that's not health care. So BIC, does your government pay for your car insurance, pet health care or anything else? Does it make you proud to pawn off your responsibilities on politicians? Do you find yourself saying "Please take care of me, I'm scared and frightened and I need it." Socialist junky. PS, how do you like the rationing?

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 4:44 p.m. CST

    Health Care

    by BIC

    No one comes to US for health care. Your pulling that directly out of your ass. There was a piece on CNN about it two nights ago. The United States has one of the worst health care systems out of all 1st world countries. That doesn't mean they have bad doctors...No they have good doctors. Almost every country in Europe has government aided health care, most democratic governments do. You sir, are an exception. That's right exceptionally incosiderate. So now you can call everyone in the world a socialist pig, or whatever it was that came out of your disenchanted mouth. As far as looking for handouts goes... There are people in both of our countries that cannot afford health costs at all times. If you were on welfare and you had to say "sorry kids, no supper this week because Billy broke his arm." Would that make you feel like a "real stud"? Because you need "No help from no body"? Yeah, that's it, whenever someone needs help in life, that must mean that they're weak. People like you make me sick. You ride around on your high horses and have some sort of ridiculous idea of what a "perfect person" does and doesn't need. Your pride makes me believe that you would have fit in better in Sparta. In Sparta they killed the fat and the weak because they were of no use. Hope you've cut down on your chocolate bars lately. Read a book sometime, you might actually see something past your own front door.

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 5:16 p.m. CST

    Canada

    by The Vok

    Canada is indeed very different from the U.S. I live in Toronto, which in a big way was founded by U.S. Loyalists who came up here to avoid that anti-British period in the U.S. (which of course I respect the U.S. for, but anyway). Those folks helped create a city that is like none in the U.S. It's multicultural without being a melting pot; it's big and grey but notoriously clean; and there isn't the trend of ghettoization that you see in many U.S. cities, where the poor live in the inner city and the rich move outwards. Toronto's not perfect, but it is different, and the rest of Canada is even more different from the U.S. However, I disagree with BIC who claims our love of hockey is unlike any other nation's obsession with sport. Check out soccer in most of the rest of the world. Check out rugby in Australia and New Zealand. Heck, look at football in the U.S. These sports have fanatical followings, we can't claim to have the only such phenomenon. The world is wonderfully diverse. Getting back to the topic at hand, China has a rotten government but also thousands of years of history and innovations and its civilization deserves much respect. It was a huge country way back when there were no other huge countries; the question is, where will it go from here?

  • Feb. 9, 2000, 7:03 p.m. CST

    Miscellaneous

    by image_

    BIC is obviously a tool of the tobacco industry. With that out of the way, I agree with many (but certainly not all)of his points. 'Course I'd much rather live in the States than in China. I think. I'd just like to say that every modern government uses propaganda to preserve the power of the establishment. The American congressman who was elected 'democratically' and the corporate CEO (or "CTO") whose company has a stranglehold on a certain market want look good and preserve their power just as the Chinese communist government wants the country to respect and admire it.

  • You said I pulled information out of my ass, and told me to read a book. Then you mentioned TV as your source. We'll here's one example of the written word. An article from The New York Times on January 16 of last year, aptly titled ``Full Hospitals Make Canadians Wait and Look South.'' I'll supply just a few excerpts. "90 percent of Canadians live within 100 miles of the United States, and many people are crossing the border for private care." "Last summer, as waiting lists for chemotherapy treatments for breast and prostate cancer stretched to four months, Montreal doctors started to send patients 45 minutes down the highway to Champlain Valley Physicians' Hospital in Plattsburgh, NY." "Business has been so good that the Plattsburgh hospital, which was on the verge of closing its cancer unit, has invested half a million dollars in new equipment. And on the Quebec side, the program has allowed health authorities to boast that they have cut the list of cancer patients who have to wait two months or more, to 368 today from 516 last summer." What? Canadian Health Care gets to say that it's improved, when it's only outsourced to the US? But BIC, you are right that people sometimes need help. And that's called charity. 75% of the world's charity comes from the United Stated. But when my government redistributes my money without my consent, that's called confiscation, not charity. So while your heart may be in the right place, your brain is not. Stealing is wrong, regardless of intention or need. And the greater discussion of Health Care is so open for debate. But consider that Canadians do not have a significant crises (rationing problem) in care for their teeth or their animals, largely because dentists and veterinarians operate in the private sector. And that's according to Michael Bliss, a Canadian medical historian. Also consider that countries such as Great Britain and Sweden are now moving toward privatizing their health care system because it has resulted in rationing of health care benefits. And I still believe that someone who supports Single Payer health care is a Socialist Junky. "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need." - Communist crap. It may sound great, but it just doesn't work. Life's not fair, get over it. If you can afford it, you should be able to buy it. If you can't afford it, find a good charity. And government is not charity (or at least it shouldn't be).

  • Feb. 10, 2000, 2:55 p.m. CST

    Learn what? That IBLIS is a freak?

    by Peirce

    The URL you provided stated a platform such as... <Enactment of a maximum wage> This makes no sense and is impossible to enforce. What about bonuses, commisions, investments? The only way to enforce it would be to have a 100% tax above a certain amount. Sheesh, and I thought 48% was bad. <Payback through free healthcare, education and public transportation> Free Health Care promotes rationing. Free education is a great idea; go vouchers. Free public transportation? Man, you guys are wacked. How about free food? Everyone has to eat. How about free homes? Woo hoo, let's eliminate money and just live in Utopia. <A moratorium (or at least mandatory labeling) of irradiated and genetically engineered "frankenfood"> Oh no, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Actually, I like the idea of labeling. Informing the buyer is always a good idea. <End the "War on Drugs", disband the DEA, and commute the prison sentences of all small time drug offenders to "time served"> Not a bad idea. <Abolish the military and CIA, and destroy all nuclear weapons> Morons! War doesn't prove who's right. War proves who's left. I don't want to initiate a war, but if someone wants to get into a war with my country, I want them leveled to the stone age. <Allow taxpayers to choose exactly where the government directs their money> Might be a good idea. <Eradicate all SUV's!!!!!!!!> Morons. We need SUV's to pollute so that we can prepare for the super volcanoes. And IBLIS, what do you mean by "fair share"? Using the term "fair share" means nothing. It's the same as "common sense gun laws" and "progressive tax". If you need any more vacuous terms, I sure I could come up with a whole slew, but how about you do some thinking instead of using the "party line".

  • Feb. 10, 2000, 11:40 p.m. CST

    What a buffoon.

    by BIC

    Wow, you attacked my intelligence. I guess that MUST mean that you're right. Yes the rich go south for treatment at times. That is their benefit, a benefit that no everyone has. Health care isn't for people for people who can afford the best in treatment. You should also consider that in hospitals in the States, the people with the money get the best service. Is that fair? You would say yes, and I would say no. I think that if someone wants to pay for exceptional care, that's fine, no problem. I do think, however, that everyone should be able to get some sort of service without breaking their bank. Your definition of stealing is laughable. When the US government takes your taxes to build roads without a national referendum, is that stealing? When tax dollars go to soldiers in Vietnam who are fighting a war that they have no buisness fighting in, is that stealing? Because hundreds of thousands of people in the US protested against that war. Should I explain how a democracy works? You vote for someone, that person acts in government at the people's wishes... if he/she doesn't they lose their office. If the canadian people spoke out against public health-care, then the government would have to change it. The true difference between the US and Canada is that the US is FAR more right-wing. This is because of the US's Christian influences. Country music and gun culture are two things that are distinctly American. Sure, we have country singers in Canada, but the idea is quite american. In any case, I'm certainly not going to convince you that privatization is a good thing. And there's no way in hell that you're gonna convince me that my system is bad. Really, its not gonna happen. My original point was not to make light of the US health-care system, it was to illustrate that the two countries are VERY different, which you have helped me do. So thanks for the help sport... really appreciated it.

  • There are a few people that should consider this one. Even if I were the stupidest fuck in the world (some of you probably think that) my arguments still stand on their own. "An idea doesn't need a great mind to support it. A great mind, however, must always be supported by an idea." -Samuel Johnson

  • Feb. 10, 2000, 11:48 p.m. CST

    To Vok

    by BIC

    Sorry about that one chap, you're right about the sport thing. Flew a little off my rocker. Thanks.

  • Feb. 11, 2000, 5:58 p.m. CST

    An argument and country music

    by Peirce

    Just have to echo that an arguement should stand on its own merit. I totally agree. And Canada does have its own unique flavor, just as the US does. (I just wish it was Canada that had the country music. I'll keep the right to defend myself though.) I hope that all countries are allowed to develop their own individual culture. And that may be dfficult due to the force of the US economy. Maybe China is right to exclude part of the US culture, so that its own culture is allowed to develop. However, I would still call China evil for the simple fact that while I have my own views on different issues, I don't decide for everyone. Imagine if I had the power to enforce my views. That's China; the few deciding for the many. While I hope that the US never goes to socialized health care, the fact that Canada does have socialized health care really isn't such a big deal; their happy with it, and they have the power to change it with their votes. In China, the people are told, and the party decides. You may say that China is changing rapidly and no one is sure how the cards are going to land. But I'm not up to giving China the benefit of the doubt. And there are two China's: the communist party and the people. I just think the party has too much control over the people. And while I have infinite faith in the people of China, I don't have the same faith in the communist party of China.

  • Feb. 12, 2000, 2:50 a.m. CST

    BIC: More about the Confederate flag

    by Brundledan

    BIC, this TalkBack may have erupted into a free-for-all about the merits of competing forms of government (who in the hell was that idiot who advocated abolishing the military?), but I wanted to focus again on the Confederate flag issue for a moment. As a Canadian, perhaps you are taking too clinical a view of the American Civil War, and of the current relevance of the Confederate flag. Here in America, it is a debate that may never be settled. I was born and raised in the South. Southern pride runs very deep, and has a very long memory when it comes to that long-ago struggle. Still, I try to take an objective view. Was it right for the South to secede? After 140 years, that question is still not easily answered. The Constitution does not allow for the breakup of the Union, but it also does not specifically forbid it. This is the very question that plagued President Buchanan during the secession crisis; he knew that the breakup of the union would be disastrous, but he also felt he had no constitutional authority to stop them. Lincoln, of course, felt otherwise, and committed the North to taking back the South by force. Did the North invade the South, in an attempt to militarily subjugate the region? Yes. Was Lincoln right in waging this war in order to preserve the Union? Yes. That is the agonizing thing about the Civil War. The question of whether secession made the Southerners "traitors" was dubious, but America could never have survived if states were allowed to leave the Union as they pleased. Ultimately, I believe that Lincoln WAS right. But I do NOT believe that the Southerners were "traitors", or that anyone today who displays the Stars and Bars is comitting a traitorous act. The Confederates fought valiantly to defend their homeland. Many brave men fell in the attempt. Their cause was the defense of their sovereignity, and it is in the name of that cause and in honor of the memory of those soldiers that the Confederate flag flies across the South today. It is an acknowledgement of their sacrifice that must never be forgotten, not an attempt to thumb a nose at the United States of America - whose flag ALWAYS flies prominently above any other.

  • Feb. 12, 2000, 5:43 p.m. CST

    Confederacy

    by BIC

    Yes, the action probably isn't traiterous by law or constitution. And yes, I suppose that those people are allowed their pride too. Well put. If you had really wanted to bag me though, you could simply have brought up the problems that we Canadians are having right now in Quebec. I'm not sure that you're familiar with it, but its certainly a problem up here. We have a province that IS trying to seccede at this time and in Canada, it IS against the law. It IS treason. So we're having our problems here too... Even ignorant sluts have problems in their countries.

  • Feb. 15, 2000, 8:07 p.m. CST

    Communism and Cartoons

    by G`Quon

    As a socialist in America, I often see this type of behaviour. Judgemental, bigoted, predjudicial views on other cultures without any real basis of fact. Point one: If China has little interest in cartoons and the messages conveyed by them, it is none of our concern. Just because we were raised on mindless dribble, it doesn't mean they want to be. Point two: As mulberry stated, this bashing of communism is riduculous. People point out female infanticide in China. Did you know that female infanticide was commonplace in Colonial America? Many infant girls were smoothered by their parents--history can back this up. Did you also know that since Roe V. Wade was decided, over 36,000,000 babies have been aborted within the states. This is just as atrosious as anything the Chinese have done. Others point out how China opresses it's citizens. Yes, China's people are poor. Yes, the government situation isn't very friendly there. But do we forget government supported slavery in the US for decade after decade after decade? Do we forget that less than forty years ago a black man couldn't use the same waterfountain, go to the same diners and shoppes, and get the same civil treatment as a white man? Do we forget that seventy years ago a man was put on trial for teaching evolution in a biology classroom? Do we forget that women only gained suffrage in 1919? How democratic! Point three: Communism is BY NO MEANS the worst idea ever created. Nearly every educated person has read Marx and Engels at one time or another simply because it was right. There have been extremists in the communist party that have hindered its success. But what of Alexander the Great, Caesar, Kaiser Frederick Wilhelm, Ivan the Terrible, Henry VIII, Napoleon, et cetera. Their crimes were great, but they weren't communists. You can't blame one or two bad apples for spoiling the bunch. What about Jarez (sp) and his socialist followers who prevented a crisis in the Balkans before World War I, and could have prevented the Great War itself had he not be assasinated by a French imperalist who disagreed with his fellow frenchman's views. There have been good Communists/socialists, and bad Capitalists/miscellaneous. It's a two way street. Point Four: Just because I hold these views, I am NOT ignorant. If anyone is ignorant it is those who close their eyes to the sea of madness around them, only opening them to scoff at the ways of others. What you do not know, you simply invent. When you do not understand, you point fingers at others stating that they are in the wrong. Get an education. Find out why China is the way it is. And remember that to understand them, you need to understand where you've come from. Meaning, you need to know the past of America to know youself and others as well. Confuscious said that "Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance." Find that out before you flame me and others with messages bashing different political views. But for some reason, I think my point will be lost. -- G`Quon (PS: this is all coming from a white male raised in America. I thought you might like to know this so you wouldn't use any particiular prejudicial view of me in your flaming responce posts. Like calling me a "chinese red" ,some sort of "raghead," or a "n**ger". I imagine thats typical of some of the posters here. I am not in a minority-that isn't my motiviation for my beliefs. Thanks)

  • Feb. 16, 2000, 12:38 a.m. CST

    Hey Lets bring back the Trabont while were at it...

    by 20th Century Fox

    As a evil Capitalist Conservative Republican I just need to remind all orf you SOCIALISM IS DEAD!!!!!COMMUNISM IS DEAD The Peoples Leadership Army (PLA) that runs china with a IRON FIST knows it...ABORTION: yes abortion is legal in the us (I'm prolife by the way) However unlike china the goverment does NOT FORCE WOMEN TO HAVE ONE WHEN THE EXCEED THEIR STATE MADATED CHILD REARING QUOTA!!!!! A good book to read is Broken Earth on this subject... SLAVERY: Yeah we had slavery and we got rid of it....Yet china still has its entire citizens enslaved to its goverment by conficating all of thier citzens wealth and allowing little or no private ownership of land...

  • Feb. 16, 2000, 12:38 a.m. CST

    G'Quon, my aposotrophised friend...

    by Chuck Beckett

    What the hell does what America did when you and I had no say in the matter have to do with the kind of shit that is happening in China today? Do I need to answer this? Is rhetorical a word? Racism in America is BAD, BAD, BAD... okay, now that that is settled, so is government control over what people should see or hear. PERIOD. Here in America or in China. But the fact is, the situation is much worse in China. And the fact of the matter is, maybe what China needs is a push from vocal Americans to kick their ass in the right direction. Like any other country, the goverment is more concerned about the stability of their jobs and the status quo that of the people they supposedly support. In America, I call this CAPITALISM...and look at us - we rock! (applause, applause, thank you) But in China, it's down right SUBJUGATION, because the average Joe doesn't have a fighting chance. ***This message has been brought to you by Rhinos of America***

  • Feb. 16, 2000, 12:13 p.m. CST

    Think a little...

    by BIC

    As far a a government not letting its people know what's going on...what about the JFK files? Sure, they're released in 2029. Wow... that's respectable. I also believe that Q'Gon was talking about "socialism" not "China" I do hope we can all agree on the spelling differences. And another thing, do you think that its your responsibility to free China from its government? Do you presume to have a say in what happens in China? Because if your answers are 'no' then it is fair to compare China to things that you had no control over in the past of your country. The government would also agree, because they support Aboriginal rights for a people that you and I never attacked. Does that mean that you shouldn't be held responsible through your taxes? Last night on FOX there was a show called "Who wants to marry a multi-millionaire" This is one of the most disgusting examples of capitalism that I have ever seen. Fifty women prancing about in their best clothes for a millionaire that they knew nothing about. But he had money! Oh Yeah! Marriage isn't about money, its about love, trust and respect. CAPITALISM has ignored those facts. The evil despot in Capitalism is never the government, it is the dollar. Also, the the gentleman who said that private property is a good thing. I would really like to hear your opinions on Marx's Commune and the effects within of communal property ownership. I'm sure that you're familiar with it, please enlighten us.

  • Feb. 16, 2000, 5:37 p.m. CST

    Private property is good! Just like steak!

    by Peirce

    On a large scale, communal ownership has never work and will never work. (I appologize for following lack of particulars.) There once was a country turned communist. They took ownership of all property. They shipped all of the farmers to the industrial section and all of the industrial workers to the farming section. They thought it would be a good idea. Turns out it wasn't. Turns out that they had a famine. Question: Have you ever noticed that when communist countries are formed, the first thing that happens is a famine? It seems that famines and communism are busom buddies. And about reading, try "The Wealth of Nations." Why do people in New York City have steaks? It's not because of some nobile idea. It's because someone can make a profit.

  • Feb. 16, 2000, 7:47 p.m. CST

    The subject at hand.

    by G`Quon

    I know that this has spun into a communist-capitalist argument. However, there still is the original subject. Frnakly, I am not sure why this is even issue. Why do people take it personally that China has banned cartoon network? Their's is a different culture. Our cartoons-and I've heard Japanese anime runs on CN too-does not necesarily apply to their culture or society. To think otherwise would be foolish. So why the big hooplah? Why the whining? It's none of our business. -- G`Quon

  • Feb. 17, 2000, 2:02 a.m. CST

    to peirce

    by BIC

    Profit is a good thing? One's profit must always lead to another's downfall. That cannot be refuted. Did you watch FOX the other night? "Who wants to marry a multi-millionaire"? Doesn't that make you sick to your stomach? I do not support Communism, but marriage would never be taken so lightly in a non-capitalist society. The sharing of property DID work in Marx's situation... the commune worked perfectly until it was abolsihed by despotism. My argument is NOT that China is a perfect political system, but that it is unfair to say that Communism is inherently bad. Please, if you want to debate my points, argue on that line. I don't want to hear why the US is better than China. It doesn't really concern me that much.

  • Feb. 17, 2000, 11:09 a.m. CST

    I love profit! Profit leads to wealth

    by Peirce

    BIC, you said that "One's profit must always lead to another's downfall. That cannot be refuted." Dramatic, but what does it mean? Do you mean, "Wealth can not be created without taking from someone else". Do you mean, "Wealth can not be created without hurting someone else". Do you mean, "Wealth can not be created without hurting mother Earth." I can refute each of these possible meanings. How about... I write a book. Someone published the book. People buy the book. I make money; the publisher makes money; and the people who bought it get what they expected. Who was hurt? You might be able to say that mother earth was hurt, but I forgot to mention that only recycled paper was used in the printing of the book. No one was hurt! And just because there are cases where someone may get hurt in a business venture does not mean that business is bad. That's like saying that human interaction is bad because sometimes there is violence. The pie is not static. Just because someone has more, does not mean someone has less. If this were true, we'd still be in the stone ages. Think about it. Seriously, how did we get out of the stone ages?! Oh, and BIC, that marriage thing was silly. But it didn't make me sick. If that's what they choose to do, I'm all for it. I don't want to run other people's lives; I just want to be able to live mine unmolested.

  • Feb. 17, 2000, 3:41 p.m. CST

    socialism around the world

    by The Vok

    G`Quon, as much as I like to hear from a fellow socialist (and no, folks, socialism is not dead ... Canada, the U.S., the U.K. and plenty of European took a page or two from Marx & Engels without going Communist), you really do make your best arguments against yourself. You tell people to learn about China yet you say the abortions in the U.S. are worse than anything done in China. That is frighteningly false. Abortion is, as someone soon mentioned, a huge trend in China, mainly as a result of the government-enforced one-child policy. Since most Chinese families are still farmers, they want boys, and now with the advent of ultrasound, they can abort girl upon girl until they're pregnant with the boy they want. The Chinese government might not be telling you so but you can bet there are far more abortions performed in that country than in the U.S. (if only due to statistics ... consider 1.2 billion people compared to the U.S.'s 240-or-so-million). You're in no position to tell other people to learn about China when you clearly don't yourself. And I take even more offense at your suggestion that cartoons are mindless dribble. ;)

  • Feb. 17, 2000, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Correct to ban cartoon network, wrong to keep Communism

    by Peirce

    Though out this dialogue, I've been reminded that Eastern Philosophy is different from Western Philosophy. These two belief systems can not be merged without loosing something is the translation (this is an important assumption). With the start of empires, western empires had kings, while the eastern empires had sons of god, who was more than a king. While western subjects were dominated through physical coercion, eastern subjects where dominated though the acceptance of philosophy. The eastern world has a hierarchical philosophy about relationships. Either someone is above you or below you. And it is better to defer to a superior. The eastern people believed that the emperor was different than others and special; whether due to supernatural coronation or by living in a different station. One of the major divergences of these two philosophies is an event that shook the world: The Magna Carta. This was the first peek at a world where men were equal. Western civilization took a sharp turn in the course of history. This idea has been gaining ground though out western philosophy - that all men are created equal. And at this western civilization isn't perfect, nor will it ever be perfect. But from the Magna Carta, to the Declaration of Independence, to the outlaw of slavery; western civilization has been marching forward and making progress. And while China was probably correct in banning the cartoon network, they are incorrect to allow communism to last in China. Communism is only a cover in China, because communism doesn't fit the psychology of China. Communism is about equality of outcome, while eastern philosophy is about hierarchies. Communism is a western invasion into China and should not be allowed to dominate and corrupt a wonderfully unique philosophy. According to my limited understanding of eastern philosophy and Chinese history, China should have an emperor of real power, capable of shaping the future. Communism should be abandoned for the cover that it is. And while China has always had revolutions, the Chinese Communist revolution was only a means to power for the few; it is only Communist in name. It was a revolution, wearing a western face. And while this western face has been successful in squashing counter-revolutions, it should not be allowed to continue to contaminate the Chinese eastern philosophy. China needs another revolution. And while I consider Communism to be a virus in western philosophy, this belief in no way affects this argument.

  • Feb. 17, 2000, 6:39 p.m. CST

    The Vok: China and abortion

    by G`Quon

    I never said it was worse in the US in China. China has about 100 million+. We've 'only' aborted 36 million or so. You are missing the point I am making. China does not have a good government in several ways. There is no denying of that. But there is no reason to bash socialism and communism simply because China never pulled it off. Socialism works if it isn't used as a mock dictatorship. It often has been. The facts are straight in my mind, but they are not in others. We willfully do or used to do what they do now with. That is the point I am making. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. There are a lot of stones flying here, and they are leaving either dirty or ignorant hands. -- G`Quon