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Copernicus Briefly Chats With Orci And Kurtzman About The Science Of Abrams' STAR TREK!! Lindelof Talks Internet Message Boards At Hero Complex!! And More!!

This is a follow-up to last week's 'Copernicus on the Science of J.J. Abrams's STAR TREK!!' article, which cou can find HERE!

Man, it was incredible seeing WRATH OF KHAN and STAR TREK again on the big screen at the Hero Complex Film Festival.  It is a shame WRATH was seemingly a Blu-ray – it certainly wasn’t a film print, but I’ll take what I can get.  I have not seen it projected on such a huge screen in decades.

It was also great hearing Nicolas Meyer holding forth on WRATH and various Trek-related things.  He’s a really intelligent guy, and he seems full of grand ideas.

But I was most interested in hearing Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof talk about their experience on STAR TREK and seeing if they might let anything slip on the sequel.

I started to transcribe my recording, but I see that has the highlights.  I believe the Hero Complex Blog is going to be posting the full video later this week.  Of course they didn’t give away any plot details about the STAR TREK sequel, but they said a bit about how they are approaching it.  They want to move it towards more familiar territory.  They said Spock was pretty emotional in the first one, but that’s because he’s young.  Kirk didn’t have much respect for the chain of command, but “he’s not there yet.”  But at the same time they said they want to cover new ground – they don’t want to “play cover songs and classics.”

There was one interesting bit relevant to the discussions here.  Geoff Boucher asked the writers if they read message boards on Star Trek to see what the fans are thinking. 

Lindelof:  “I’ve had a little bit of experience with message boards.  And the truth of the matter is, I do care what they’re saying.  And although I should probably avoid it, as someone who basically went on them and posted stuff before I was making stuff myself, I kind of feel like I’m not allowed to ignore them, I kind of need to process it.  Ultimately its more or less a toxic experience because there’s just not that many people out there who are basically saying some of the kind things you guys have said here tonight, like  ‘You know what, I think Trek was really cool and awesome, I’m gonna go post that.’  You know, it just doesn’t work that way.  And as far as helping your process, there’s a lot of ‘I hate it, don’t do it, I didn’t like that.’  And there’s almost none of, ‘This is what we should do instead.’  ‘This is what we should do instead,’ at least offers some sort of constructive idea for us to steal!  Instead its more like, by the time you’re getting to it the work is already done and all it can really do is be relatively crippling.  But that being said, I guess, you know, I’m a glutton for the abuse.”

Orci:  “And I read it all, I take it all in.  All information about the subject is relevant.  It’s up to you to sort it out.”

Lindelof: “When I first met Bob I said, ‘Hey there’s this guy on the Ain’t It Cool News who calls himself boborci and he, like gets into fights on the message boards with people who don’t like your stuff.’  And he was like, ‘That would be me.’”

Copernicus back again.  I had some firsthand experience with that!  In the VIP lounge before they went out on stage I got a chance to briefly chat with both Kurtzman and Orci.  I talked to Alex first – he was very nice – I asked him a few questions about the science.  In particular I asked him how the bit of dialog about Titan came about and whether they had asked Carolyn Porco, credited as a science consultant about it.  He said he had never met or talked to her, so we guessed she had the credit because she probably consulted on the look of Enterprise rising out of Titan.  He did say that the exact moon they hide in or behind changed during the various drafts.  He couldn’t remember how the line about magnetic distortions from Saturn’s rings came about, but he said that Bob Orci was the real science expert, so he called him over. 

I asked Bob and he said, “Did you read that on the internet today?”  I said, “I wrote that on the internet today.”  He asked what I would have done, and I said I would have left it at the magnetic field of Saturn and not involved the rings, which have nothing to do with it.  This is from memory, but I believe he said JJ thought it was more cinematic to invoke the rings.  Even if I disagree with the result, I can understand that – I work on a science show and quite often decisions are made above my head to make something “cool,” even if it is kind of fast and loose with the science (though I try to catch and change any real errors).  The point is, it isn’t always up to the writers.

Bob said he thought I contradicted myself in the article when I said that they should have still used a supernova even though a black hole can’t necessarily contain a supernova.  I agree that part could have been clearer.  I explained that it is true that black holes are created in supernovae, and the supernovae still happen, but if you add mass to the black hole, it could stop a supernova.  I said I assumed that’s how Red Matter works. 

Bob got called away to go on stage before we could finish our conversation.  But to expand on the supernova point, we aren’t sure of the mapping between which kinds of exploding stars create neutron stars and which create black holes.  We are fairly sure that the supernovae (sometimes called hypernovae) that create Gamma Ray Bursts create a black hole -- see the collapsar model.  But in other cases, the core collapse of a star could create a black hole so strong that there is no supernova at all.  How would we know?  You’d have to monitor millions of stars and look for one that just disappeared. People are trying this now.

Bob seemed pretty pissed about my article!  Fair enough, in rereading it, I should never have used words like “lazy” or “Sarah Palin writing.”  In trying to make a point I went past being constructive.  And I can imagine my dig at Michael Bay could have been construed as a dig at Orci and Kurtzman.  It wasn’t – to be honest, I had actually forgotten that Orci and Kurtzman were writers on TRANSFORMERS.   I have been hating on Michael Bay movies long before they had anything to do with them!

Anyway, I was glad to see Bob Orci posting his take on the science of STAR TREK in the talkbacks.   I don’t agree with everything he said, but he’s clearly a thoughtful guy who has considered the issues involved.  I really like his take on the alternate universe / alternate timeline presented here.  It is very much in keeping with some ideas from quantum mechanics.  I’ve always thought that I was writing a time travel movie that’s what I’d do too.  And he cares enough about what the fans think to be having a conversation with us – that is very cool.  I’ll try to respond to what he said and some questions other readers had in a “Part 2” article if I have the time before heading off to a conference I’m co-organizing in Sydney later in the week.   In the meantime, I’d be happy to give Bob space in a real article to rebut or give his take on anything I said.

Nice to see such an interesting Trek discussion all around.  And Talkbackers, let’s try to keep it constructive.  I speak from experience when I say that personal attacks are no fun and really just take away from the point you are trying to make.  Thoughtful debate is great fun to read though, and that is the kind of thing that will keep the creators of the movies we love paying attention.


-Andy Howell  aka Copernicus

Email or follow me on Twitter.

Readers Talkback
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  • June 15, 2011, 10:35 a.m. CST


    by Transhuman

  • June 15, 2011, 10:38 a.m. CST

    Damon, if you're reading this

    by Transhuman

    You ended Lost just like you said you wouldn't. They were all dead. Sure the island wasn't purgatory or anything, but the all the sideways flashes and stuff happening in the sixth season, they're all dead already. It's the ending you promised not to use. I felt cheated by that. Read this and know it.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:43 a.m. CST

    I cannot tell a lie

    by BILLY

    Lindelof is great. His riffs with Carlton Cuse on any LOST dvd's, interviews,etc. were always pretty funny.I actually miss the sonofoabitch being everywhere. Nonetheless, he's working on Star Trek'll be a lil bit more patient.I do wonder, what about Cuse? If he part of Star Trek? And, I said it before..I'll say it again, STAR TREK was fucking amazing. I saw that and District 9 three times in theaters that year.I've no clue how people on here didn't appreciate that, but DID appreciate ass films like the last three STAR WARS.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    FUCK IT, IF Lindelop is reading this,

    by BILLY

    Record commentary with Cuse, J.J. and whoever the hell else and talk about EVERYTHING, in truth(even if it shatters fanboys previous conceptions of how things were supposed to be)..on the making of the show. EVERYTHING. go into minute fucking details. FOR US. DO IT.FOR US (I won't lie...I'm confident I now understand 99% of LOST-from smokie to the island...but there's NOTHING MORE reassuring then hearing it from the creators.)

  • June 15, 2011, 10:48 a.m. CST

    Are they still working on The Dark Tower?

    by CharyouTree

    If so give Roland the Horn at the start.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Trek and Science

    by richievanderlow

    I have a passing knowledge of science and I appreciate them making the effort.. but it's just a movie and doesn't really matter.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:51 a.m. CST

    Even as a storyboard artist...

    by bubcus

    ... I occasionally wave a concern flag about content issues to a director. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. The "errors" in Star Trek didn't turn me off from the movie, I did recognize them, but I enjoyed the ride from start to finish regardless. I loved the dialogue, characters, visuals, and mood of the film and was so glad not to be subjected to a "Voyager/Deep Space Nine/ Enterprise" rehash. I don't blame the writers for what is ticking us off in the Transformers films. What I hate about those films just comes from stupid decisions... like making the college look like a Victoria's Secret society. I've got degrees from three different colleges and I have worked at one University, and no girls dressed like that in any of them.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST


    by UGG

    and I like to choke midgets while I fuck them.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    they didn't crap on Trek and then like the SW prequels. They didn't like those either. They don't like much of anything. Loved JJ Trek. Thx to the guys for actually paying attention to anything that is said around here.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:56 a.m. CST

    Their answer to the questions....

    by matthooper8

    It's a FUCKING MOVIE you fucking loser!

  • June 15, 2011, 10:56 a.m. CST


    by spidercoz

    you're not a movie or a trek fan

  • June 15, 2011, 10:58 a.m. CST


    by richievanderlow

    I don't know.. it's not like they killed them all off. It just showed what happened to them after they died and went to that place in the afterlife where time didn't exist, so they all arrived at the same time. The little prologues that we've seen just show that there's more to the story... it was just the end of their time being (mostly) together. There's more that they can tell if they want to, or your imagination can just run wild.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:59 a.m. CST


    by richievanderlow

    Am i to assume that's sarcasm?

  • June 15, 2011, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Science and Star Trek

    by HSStudios

    The science articles are interesting. To put them in context, though: I work at a place that has a file cabinet of old scripts. I was cleaning it out a few years ago and found a mimeographed writer's bible for Star Trek. Must have been for the 2nd or 3rd season. There was a bit in it where Roddenberry, or Fontana, or whomever had typed it, said something like (I'm paraphrasing): "We get a lot of people pitching stories about how the transporter or the tricorder works. We don't really care about the science - the science is just there to give us a way to put the cast in situation that will reveal character."

  • June 15, 2011, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Cinematic? WTF?

    by Just_Some_Guy

    OK, so, Abrams chose to state that the rings are giving a magnetic distrotion because it sounds more cinematic? Even though it is completely wrong? Huh? How about taking a person out of a movie, wouldn't that be anti-cinematic? If so, stating a known fact as completely wrong would be counterproductive to the movie. This is what pissed me off about movie directors, they really should worry more about being scientifically accurate for greater drama and realism rather than shaking the camera or adding lens flares.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:04 a.m. CST

    jesus h christ


    you know we cant see future people flying around in giant spaceships, right? damn i guess the science is all wrong idiots

  • June 15, 2011, 11:04 a.m. CST


    by spidercoz

    simply a supposition deduced from your previous statement of "but it's just a movie and doesn't really matter"

  • June 15, 2011, 11:05 a.m. CST


    by richievanderlow

    That's interesting, and not surprising given the era that was written. Certainly, today's audiences are much more demanding.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:07 a.m. CST


    by richievanderlow

    Then the whole thing doesn't make sense. You might be taking the silver screen a little too seriously if that's how you feel. I'll pray for you.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:08 a.m. CST

    it's one thing to make up some science

    by spidercoz

    it's completely another to get known science INCORRECT THAT'S what irritates us

  • June 15, 2011, 11:08 a.m. CST

    Damon is the Chosen One

    by Chad

    Damon is smart, well read, and classy. He knows how to pitch an idea, write a story, and distinguish between good Star Wars and bad. The reason no complainer ever suggests to Damon how a story should be done differently is because idiots don't know anything, and couldn't tell a story to save their lives. There are some people who still apparently think that the "Lost" producers had some Secret to Existence itself that the producers would reveal in the last episode, and that this secret would explain magical island's a smoke monsters. I call these people "idiots". Others, I call "morons", thought the island should have been revealed to be a giant Space Ship that flew into space with Hurley at the helm. Despite the fact that this would have made no sense in regard to the rest of the series (except, perhaps, as a fanboy fantasy), such an ending wouldn't have mattered anyway. The fanboys would have fist pumped...and then asked where the Space Ship came from. Where is it going? Why was an alien named Jacob so interested in the fates of humans? Why? Why? Why? What a cheat of an ending! There is no more why, and there can never be a "rock bottom" why. THAT was the point of the entire series. Mature people make of it what they can, as that is life, and knew as much BEFORE the show ever ended! Immature people think there could have been some kind of Cosmic Answer to it "The Island was a Space Ship". Give me a break.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST

    pray for me?

    by spidercoz

    how quaint no wonder you don't care about scientific accuracy

  • June 15, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST

    President Baltar

    by richievanderlow

    +1 lol.. yeah.. we also wouldn't be able to hear things in space like phasers, torpedos or ships going into warp... but no one's bitching about that.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:11 a.m. CST


    by richievanderlow

    I have a solution for you. Stay home and watch Carl Sagan's Cosmos or any other documentary you want. You'll get all the accuracy you want there and won't have to spend your money to be so disappointed.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST

    seen it

    by spidercoz

    excellent series, more people should watch it, maybe then we wouldn't have so many science cripples in our society also I never said anything about being disappointed, overall I enjoyed the movie very much, but I'm a hardcore trekkie, we like to nitpick

  • June 15, 2011, 11:23 a.m. CST


    by Transhuman

    I like season 6 but as soon as we found out they were all already dead in the flash-sideways, everything you'd been watching in that universe and trying to figure out was made meaningless to the story, which was about the island, it's mysteries, and if the 815 survivors would ever find a way off. Having them all meet at the end and go to heaven together is nice, but it wasn't of any importance to the overall story, that is post-story. And the flash-sideways only serve as a build-up to that post-story moment. Seems like a lot of wasted time. I am pretty fine with where they took it on the island season 6. Hell, I appreciate how well crafted the flash-sideways leading to the ending sendoff is, but in the end it was the ending they promised not to use, which is the "they're all dead already" ending.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:27 a.m. CST


    by Transhuman

    I like that idea. I always tell people to use the season 3 finale as the ending, but your idea allows me to keep the awesome season 5 in the mix.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:34 a.m. CST

    I can kind of understand the "cinematic" thing.

    by spacehog

    I take it this way: the most recognizable and cool thing about Saturn to the average person is its rings, yeah? So they throw the rings into the dialogue just to emphasize it, just a quick additional reminder of where the Enterprise is. I wouldn't say it's necessary and obviously it would have been nice to at least mention them in a scientifically accurate way, but I can at least see the idea behind throwing the mention in there.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Lost finale

    by SmokingRobot

    Was so bad it wasn't just bad for itself. It was so bad it ruined five years of some of the best tv ever made. Lost is lost to me now. I will NEVER watch it again. It was so bad it was almost as bad as the BSG finale.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:37 a.m. CST

    A simple Trek constructive criticism

    by chuckmoose

    I really enjoyed the new Trek, and few issues with it in general. The only groan inducing issue I had was putting Kirk and Spock and Scotty so close together on the ice planet. That felt forced and implausible. That being said, I will defend it to some degree. Coincidence only feels like coincidence in hind sight. We know that these people are going to meet, so how they meet may seem odd, but if you look backwards at most any event in your own life you see a long string of amazing "coincidences" in most any event. How did you and your girlfriend get to be in the same place at the same time the day you met? Just passing a friend on the highway cam be a highly unlikely event yet it happens regularly. My main criticism of the movie came later after some time had passed and the excitement of the initial viewing was gone. I realized that, unlike the best episodes of the original Trek, there was essentially no moral to the story. It was pretty much a straight up origin and adventure story, and that part of it was well done. But we weren't left with any real meat, very little to think about. I hope that further adventures will continue the grand Trek tradition of looking at the world around us and presenting the challenges society currently faces in a new and thought provoking way.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:45 a.m. CST

    Totally cool

    by Rob Hill

    I'm pretty sure this article sums up what is so awesome about having a site like this. It's great to have a forum to discuss movie-related goodness and actually have the folks who made it happen take the time to have some give and take with the masses. I'm not about nitpicking away at perceived flaws or ripping a film apart. I'm not a critic. There are people who get paid to do that. I'm just thrilled that anyone cares. No worries.

  • Sure, Trek 90210 and Bayformers have made some serious money but then there are 60 million retards in the USA who voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin, so there's no accounting for taste. But NOTHING that you and your butt-buddy Kurtzman have written will hold up. New Trek will be remembered as nothing more than a generic Sci-fi action film with shitty plotting and a generic villain with moronic motives not to mention all of the fucking Freudian parental issues you shoved into it. Hey, here's a fucking novel idea you worthless cunt, how about a Star Trek movie that had, oh I don't know, some actual IDEA'S and CONCEPTS beyond your braindead MacGuffin's like Red Matter or the Rabbit's Foot from Mission : Impossible 3 which was fucking trash compared to Bran De Palma's masterful first flick. How about something that doesn't feel like Top Gun meets Star Wars you fucking HACK! But why waste my time lecturing you as you're nothing more than Leslie Nielsen chasing after your 1000 dollars a week in The Velvet Alley as I told you in the talkback for Harry's Transformers 2 review. In closing, Boborci, you, Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof could be replaced by shit flinging monkey's and I doubt anyone would notice the difference and in time you will be dead and forgotten while great writers like Rod Serling, Paddy Chayefsky, Robert Towne and Paul Schrader's names will live forever because of the power of their work. YOU FUCKING SUCK!!!

  • June 15, 2011, 11:51 a.m. CST

    Cinematic will always win out...

    by Bald Evil

    Because realistic space travel is skull-numbingly boring. Right up until disaster strikes, of course. I thought it was kind of Copernicus to completely ignore the various relativistic effects that would make a shambles of Star Trek (or most space opera stories). I also thought the writers got off VERY lightly for their transporter shenanigans in the 2009 Star Trek film.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:53 a.m. CST

    They shouldn't read any of this stuff.

    by matineer

    They should just write the movie. It's only going to be as good as it's going to be. I think the very young cast presents problems and some credibility issues in a serious story, but the good must be taken with the bad.

  • June 15, 2011, noon CST


    by richievanderlow

    I see what you're saying. I guess I didn't see the big plan as you do, but that's cool. I never thought they were dead the whole time. I did think you were referring to the final episode.. since you're not, just retract my first post, lol.

  • June 15, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman

    by Cruizer Dave

    Star Trek 2009 was great in spite of Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman. The story itself is pretty dumb when you think about it. JJ gave it enough spit shine and work to make it good, but overall the story and script were not that film's strong point. I'm sorry, but Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are not very good screen writers. Their Transformers scripts are complete trash. This guy has no right to be angry over the fact that his nonsense was called out for what it was. It's not that we don't like the movie, it's just the spacial relationships were retarded. This also tied into the motivation of the main villain. He was made that Spock failed on a last ditch effort to create a black hole to stop a supernova? Either way, Romulus was toast. Either the star that went supernova would have consumed it (assuming it wasn't Romulus' own star, in which case it was toast anyway), or the black hole used to stop the supernova would have resulted in the destruction of Romulus' star system. Why would Nero blame Spock? It's retarded writing, that's why. Personally, I think they should hire some GOOD writers for the next Trek film. Imagine how awesome JJ's energy and direction would be with a story that actually makes sense!

  • June 15, 2011, 12:03 p.m. CST

    @ richievanderlow

    by Chad

    "everything you'd been watching in that universe and trying to figure out was made meaningless to the story" That's a legitimate criticism from a particular point of view, but I would say that it wasn't meaningless at all. They were all coming to grips with their time together, and simultaneously coming to grips with "moving on" and "letting go" of that time together. All of the characters WERE REAL in the flashsideways universe (well, at least OUR characters were real). All the island stories were thematically (and character-wise) tied to the flashsideways stories, and the flashsideways stories were all directly juxtaposed to what we knew had happened in flashbacks (enhancing both simultaneously). The flashsideways story was rooted deeply into the DNA of the entirety of the story, and gave us a chance to consider these characters and their lives (and consider the characters considering their lives) before moving on. The subtlety of the reveal is that it was always the JOURNEY we had with these people (and that they had with each other) that was important, never the destination--and what made some feel cheated, I think, is that the "destination" of this story emphasized the JOURNEY to make that very point. The destination of ALL of us is death. The important part--the part everything remembers and things about after you are dead--is the time you spent with loved ones while you were alive. "Lost" was simply one extended metaphor for the journey of is every great myth. (I'll note that even between my initial post and this one, there have been complaints about the ending devoid of any alternatives that would be better--actually, devoid of any alternatives whatsoever. lol )

  • June 15, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    If Lindelof is reading this...

    by rev_skarekroe

    ...I wish Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk was played less for laughs.

  • June 15, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST

    οh boy wait until Asi see this topic..

    by KilliK

    he is gonna E-X-P-L-O-D-E

  • June 15, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST


    by matthooper8

    Go watch Link TV and cry yourself yo sleep in your parent's basement about how horrible it is in this country and how much better off you think you'd be in China or any other repressive country you admire.

  • I mean, for fuck's sake, the man's a hack. Everything he's contributed to "creatively" is total and complete garbage. Why is he the subject of practically 1 out of every 3 stories that graces the site these days?

  • June 15, 2011, 12:54 p.m. CST

    Catchtheman - no, it doesn't bother me.

    by Boborci

  • June 15, 2011, 12:59 p.m. CST

    New Star Trek

    by nascentia

    I've never been a Trek fan, never gave 2 shits about any of them, but I love the new one. I thought it was a genius move having it in an alternate universe - you can keep canon where you want it, and scrap it where you want, and it works. That was a cool move, because it lets them do one or two new Trek sequels, and then someone else could do another alternate universe, or go back to the original, whatever. I thought it was a cool move. I'll go see the sequel when it's out, for sure. That said, I'm still fucking PISSED that the color red of the redshirts wasn't the exact same hue that went through my TV in 1992 while watching a repeat! They should have matched the hue of my RCA! THIS IS BULLSHIT! HACK WRITERS!

  • June 15, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    Saturn's Rings

    by DamnMichaelBay

    Copernicus is right, it's a really weak line to anyone who knows even a vague bit about physics. For one thing, if the rings had any kind of high level of magnetism, they'd quickly clump together into a bunch of magnetic moons!

  • June 15, 2011, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Star Trek 2009: where spaceship engines are

    by KilliK

    consisted of brewery pιpes. sigh..

  • June 15, 2011, 1:21 p.m. CST

    I call bullshit on Lindelof. The majority of comments are

    by Dennis_Moore

    about ‘This is what [they] should do instead.’ Most of the angst involves the excrutiating douchechill over poor choices in production and in missed opportunities with these genre/speculative properties. Especially considering certain creators claim to be into geek stuff, but aren't particularly as knowledgeable or reverent as a geek should. Not the one should be slavish to detail, but these things are iconic and have longevity for a reason, and these elements are part of the machinery of the story. So just tossing in an Easter egg here there for no reason other than an effort to placate the hardcore while completely altering everything else is indeed lazy and just plain crass. I guarantee you Warren Ellis absolutely fucking loathes GI Joe ARAH, yet he immersed himself in the lore enough to produce something that was updated and with his own spin, but faithful enough to please the hardcore audience, something the live actioner failed to do.

  • So bloody lame! And this guy is writing Ridley Scott's PROMEHEUS? Oh boy! As for Orci claiming that he takes all the information in, by all information he means the ass-kissing as well?

  • June 15, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    sorry for the multiposts, it was a posting malfunction.

    by AsimovLives

  • June 15, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    what the hell!!

    by AsimovLives

  • June 15, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST

    So the ire toward the movie was over the missed

    by Dennis_Moore

    opportunity. Why not hire Ellis and Hama for the script and find a director who is better suited to, and gets, the material? Comments on boards shouted ‘This is what [they] should do instead" the whole way through the production of that, and many others. Let's not even begin to discuss how much they didn't understand about the Transformers, how it functions and its appeal, which has made it last decades, but I guess it doesn't matter because [it's just based on a stupid toy/it isn't Elizabethan theatre/it's just for eating popcorn to/they made huge receipts despite lack of brains/etc].

  • June 15, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST


    by Transhuman

    I am talking about the flash-sideways throughout season 6 and the particular end moment you mentioned that ties it all together. So you were with me.

  • June 15, 2011, 1:38 p.m. CST

    no, dipshit

    by spidercoz

    star trek is why we're here

  • June 15, 2011, 1:38 p.m. CST


    by Transhuman

    It was me that said that actually. Anything that happens after the characters are dead couldn't contribute to the story of the character's journey on the island. I don't think anybody watched to see if their journey brought them to heaven, I think people watched to see why they were brought to the island and if they would ever leave. I love the show, but that part of season 6 I can't really go with.

  • June 15, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    man, the site is sucking ass today

    by spidercoz

  • June 15, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST

    Didn't mean to post entirely

    by Dennis_Moore

    in that subject line, damn phone.

  • June 15, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST

    boborci - glad you're comfortable with being entirely forgettable

    by spidercoz

    should make your life easier

  • June 15, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST


    by Transhuman

    I'm not looking for an alternate ending. I feel like all the flash-sideways/finale meet-up was unnecessary and could be totally cut out.

  • June 15, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST

    boborci - please don't give us Captain Ahab in space!

    by wtriker1701

    Been there, done that, and guess what? It worked for once (Star Trek II) - but nevermore! Not that you intended to do so, but here's the catch: To boldly go where man has gone before! Yes, Star Trek is Character driven, Star Trek is Action, but it should be SCIENCE FICTION first. The first one (from your bunch) was great!! So I'm not afraid for the sequel(s). You've handled it very well, nitpicking aside. Great 2 hours of entertainment, laughs and tears. GO BOLDLY ON!!! So, obviously this was NO rant, Janice!

  • June 15, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST

    Bob seemed pretty pissed about my article!

    by redtom

    Good! Sooner these hacks learn to respect story, the better. Star Trek hasn't aged well, and its, what, 2 years old?

  • Now I understand those double posts... grrrr

  • June 15, 2011, 1:48 p.m. CST

    How can such a simple site be plauged with crippling problems?


    oh yeah, because it's based on 1995 programming and it's now 2011

  • June 15, 2011, 1:48 p.m. CST

    redtom, no - you're wrong! It HAS aged well and will!

    by wtriker1701

    So sayeth The Riker - once!

  • How often i have posted about how badly Orci, Abrams and Co have misused the very premise of their own story they created for the movie? I have pointed that out inumerous times. Lindelof's claim that there is no constructuve criticism, as in, no criticismaimed at them for what they mgiht had done wrong is just proof he hasn't been reading the stuff in here but just heard about it from 3rd parties. So, does this means i also have to take unto consideration this Lindelof guy as well, as to be beware of what scripts he writers so i can be on the lookout for him as well? As if having to worry about what stuff Orci writes is not bad enough already.

  • ...while getting a kick out of those who are pathologically obsessed with his work (see above).

  • June 15, 2011, 1:50 p.m. CST

    They are probably working on these pages as we write...

    by wtriker1701

    Damn, but better than downtime, isn't it? Now the Doctor Who talkback will loose its momentum and this one will get the pole position...

  • June 15, 2011, 1:51 p.m. CST

    If anything, they should stay off boards so people

    by Dennis_Moore

    can vent without someone hanging around to try to create guilt and a less fun atmosphere.

  • June 15, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    wtriker1701 is wrong, terribly wong.

    by AsimovLives

    A few move years, and Abrams Trek will look as specific dated to the decade it was made as Zardoz is to the 70s. But at least Zarzoz has ideas, while Abrams Trek only has shit blowing up.

  • June 15, 2011, 1:53 p.m. CST

    My criticism on Star Trek? Those BIG nacelles.

    by wtriker1701

    Truly not such a beauty anymore, is she? A complete TMP Enterprise would have done well, I guess. Hey, it's an alternate universe after all....

  • It's great that he gets first knowledge of the reactions his work produces. So to bust his bubble of self-contentment. Though i wonder if his inflated ego will allow him to take any lessons from this.

  • You won't give it a real chance ever, will ya? Turn away, wait for TNG-HD this autumn and masturbate, my friend. (So will I, of course!) But this movie is much better than Trek 4-10! MUCH BETTER! (and I even think TMP is AS great as TWOK).

  • June 15, 2011, 1:57 p.m. CST

    zardoz, lol

    by spidercoz

    that's pretty funny

  • June 15, 2011, 1:57 p.m. CST

    really sorry about the multiple posts


    i wasn't trying to be an asshole, i had no idea it was posting duplicate until the last one. go team internets 1995!

  • It looked like it had 10 different people designing a different part of it and nobody had agree with each other on the visual style of the ship. So the end result is this absurd mismatch of different styles that made for the ugliest version of the Enterprise i ever seen in my whole life. It even makes the toilet seat shaped ship from ST: VOYAGER look pretty. That's why i call the ship in Abrams Trek as A.S.S. Abramsprise, because it's butt ugly and shouldn't be acossiated with the venerable USS Enterprise in any way.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    asimovlives, so, which one would you have preferred?

    by wtriker1701

    The TOS TV one or the TMP one? Or would you have given green light to an updated design?

  • June 15, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    Use of the word "lazy" is okay...

    by KnowItAllFromCali

    "Sarah Palin" writing is a bit below the belt, though.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    They all have plenty of boards filled with fawning sycophants.

    by Dennis_Moore

    Yet they seem overly concerned what we here and a few other places think, because they know that we know the Emperor has no clothes, so the try to smear us by claiming it's all bitching and drive-by insults and not backed by reasoned arguments.

  • And I would love for you to point out one instance when I have "kissed" said creative party's ass.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Silence has fallen? No more answers?

    by wtriker1701

    Just checking, if this talkback is still alive...

  • June 15, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST

    Watch it, gaius...

    by AssyMuffJizz

    I'm the only Assy around here. His name is AsimovLives. RESPECT IT.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    My 2 cents on BREWERY TREK

    by AssyMuffJizz

    To be fair, NuTrek had some big things going for it: cast; look and feel (with some exceptions); and energy. I'm not even sure if Jar Jar Abrams was a problem. The directing seemed... well, non-offensive -- even highly innervated at times. The fucking writing, though, was AWFUL. I mean really AWFUL. I felt like my IQ was slowly inching downwards every minute. I've watched campy horror and sci fi films that made more sense and had better dialogue. It was that bad. It wasn't just a science-based problem -- it was a common sense problem. The film bears up to absolutely NO reflection or critique. Yes, a ST reboot was a good idea. Yes, the cast for the most part was Aces. But the screenplay was mindless, lazy crap. Here's some constructive criticism for the producers of future TREK films: get new writers.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST

    Also, concern over things getting all ad hominem insult-y

    by Dennis_Moore

    or straying from subjective thoughtful debates misses the ambience of talkback. If this place were heavily moderated, it would dry up in a day. AICN is the Fight Club of boards.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:40 p.m. CST

    why would bob orci get emotional ?

    by animas

    he gets paid to write terrible scripts intentionally. YOU CHOSE to be a studio hack, Bob.... Pretending as if you give a shit about quality is even more insulting than watching one of your movies. The main reason why trek fans are pissed off is because these writers don't even understand what Star Trek is about. Even NEMESIS with all its shittyness is more Star Trek than 2009Trek because it was about ideas.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    @ assymuffjizz: Your IQ went "DOWN?"

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    Beside the error of grammatical usage -- is it even possible to drop? After all, morons who claim that their IQ "drops" when watching a film or reading a script probably don't have much of an IQ to boast about anyway.

  • Did I not rant about this EXACT bullshit line just weeks ago? The non-Trekkies who suddenly responded to STINO were responding merely to the gobs of money that got thrown at the screen. Nothing more. Had the same cash been spent on any of the prior Trek films, I guarantee the same mindless adulation would have resulted.

  • Much like AsimovisDead, it's the near-perfect foil for that overripe gas bag.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:56 p.m. CST

    Fuck this version of Trek with a 1000 Gorn dicks!

    by Jaka

    The science doesn't matter because the entire concept is redundant, insulting and unnecessary.

  • June 15, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST


    by JumpinJehosaphat

    Only on this crappy little dark corner of the interwebs would we find people who want science over story. You're not the target audience, if you can believe that. Studios cast the widest net possible, and storytellers since the pilot of the original Star Trek have put science on the back burner to storytelling. Why? Because only a fraction of the audience lets science fact take them out of a good yarn. One of the reasons some of the Star Trek series since the original had so many boring and problematic stories is they tried to appeal to the fan base who nitpick fictionalized science down to an unusable nub.

  • June 15, 2011, 3 p.m. CST

    The screenplay was the big problem with Abram's Trek

    by kwisatzhaderach

    Everybody knows and recognises that fact. It's no wonder they are taking their time with a sequel. <p> Anyways, i'd much rather hear about Prometheus.

  • June 15, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST

    Regardless if you're a Nerd nor not, let's face it..

    by Stalkeye

    ...Orci and Kuntzman are shitty writers. Yet the studios still give these fucking shills work.At least that asshole Bay (finally) had the sense to have someone else take a shot at the Transformers (I'm curious to see how the "Dark of the Moon" would hold up against the previous works of shit filled stories.

  • June 15, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    what, you can't have a good story AND accurate science?

    by spidercoz

    What are you, fucking brain-dead? Fictional science is one thing; they can make up whatever they want as long as it doesn't sound too ridiculous. But when they fuck up REAL science, that's just pathetic.

  • June 15, 2011, 3:25 p.m. CST

    What they should have done...

    by KnowItAllFromCali

    The science in the last Trek was poor, but the story had bigger problems. The first half was well done and did a good job of introducing the characters. I have a few nitpicks concerning Kirk's bar fight and especially young Kirk driving the car off the cliff, but whatever. The Good The casting was superb and I thought they all did a great job. Kirk's handling of the Kobayashi Maru was a lot of fun. The humor worked well and was nicely timed. McCoy's scheme to get Kirk on the Enterprise was pretty brilliant. The overall look of things was well done. I didn't entirely care for the look of the new Enterprise, but the "Apple store" look of the ship and bridge didn't bother me. The second half of the story is when things really start to fall apart. The Bad Spock would never have exiled Kirk to an icy wasteland populated by dangerous monsters! I found it very hard to believe that a monster that big and that threatening and that persistent would be chased away by a torch. The crazy coincidence that has been mentioned many times. Kirk meets Spock meets Scotty, with nothing to tie it together. Kirk gets control of the Enterprise by making Spock mad? Really? That is highly contrived and frankly infuriating. The rest of the story is typical Hollywood action-movie rubbish. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but at this point, I wasn't caring enough about the characters to be riveted. The Advice Everything from Kirk landing on the ice planet to him getting control of the Enterprise needed a drastic rewrite. The monster should have been saved for another movie where it served a purpose. The coincidences could have actually been part of the story, a plan that old Spock hatched in order to get his friends together to solve a problem. Kirk could have earned his position as Captain because of his daring and brilliant leadership instead of Spock's inadequacy. I also disagree with Copernicus on using the term supernova. Surely, they could have come up with a better explanation! A Genesis-like experiment gone wrong, perhaps? An attack by some remote alien species (and a set up for a future movie)? I can't help but wonder what ideas were bandied about before the final script was finished.

  • June 15, 2011, 3:26 p.m. CST

    BOBORCI, I think your shit's pretty cool ...

    by thepentaveret

    Alias: The first two and a half seasons is some of the best TV ever. Fringe: AWESOME. Star Trek: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful film. Except for the science (snicker). I'm still watching it every few months. Transformers: Mostly solid. Cowboys and Aliens: Can. Not. Wait. Anyway, thanks for the imagination, the storytelling, and the entertainment.

  • June 15, 2011, 3:32 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    I loved the design of the Enterprise in TPM. If i was in charge of a ST reboot movie, i would ask for a new design, but using the TOS design as inspiration. And instead of the recent trend of over-busing the designs, i would do the wexact opposite, to sleek and minimalize it even more then it already was in the TOS.

  • Where this crap started from? Why people take this as gospel, on faith? Who started this nonsense? Was it God himself who came down to Earth and wrote that in stone with fire? And why didn't i get the memo? Because really, i can't understand where this nonsense came from and why people believe it so as if it's God's own truth.

  • June 15, 2011, 3:41 p.m. CST

    ida = idea

    by AsimovLives

  • June 15, 2011, 3:46 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    It's true that Orci and Kurtzman are not credited as writers for Bayformers 3. However, i have strong suspicions that they must have done script-doctoring duties on it. I seriously doub they would leave off such a golden eggs goose so easily. Being a script-doctor for that kind of Bay-ass movie is perfect: they still get the fat paycheck but not the infamy that comes by being publically associated with such a movie. I would evne bet the majority of what you will see in Bayformers 3 is mostly from the script-doctored work of Orci and Kurtzman and not the credited writer.

  • Please, PLEASE don't EVER temper yourself or YOUR opinion and feelings and WRITING because of how you think somebody else is going to take it.. as soon as you start doing that, you disgrace your own thoughts and YOURSELF, and you become another poser and are in fact stepping on the face of the art of writing and self-expression. And you BECOME one of them.. you become one of these fucking Christopher Nolan hating boborci design-by-committee style movies. The Cowboys vs Aliens movie had FIVE FUCKING SCREENWRITERS on it, ok? Don't you understand what you GET with that? You get a piece of corporate schlock that's been logistically algorithmically equated in order to maximize generic "emotional" experience to consumers for maximum compensatory value at the cost of FUCKING HUMAN DECENCY. You don't get a unique piece of art; you get something that's been fucking diluted and polluted and changed and altered in order to appease "Audience". It gets watered down and stripped and forced to CONFORM because of compromises and sacrifices, and it loses it's original meaning through distillation as more dipshits are added into the mix that's great hey that's REALLY great who gives a shit about passion and soul and heart when YOU can make a bunch of fucking money and go have a great time with your fucking buddies on set and YOU have a great time at the cost of things that have deep meaning and value for people. How fucking selfish, and how fucking disgusting.

  • June 15, 2011, 4:05 p.m. CST

    lindelof boborci etc

    by mukhtabi

    I'm sure you have a story more or less figured out for the second Star Trek by now - presuming the treatment survives story conferences - but if it's not too much trouble, you think either a young Khan, The Klingons, or Mudd could please show up in this one? Heck if you could find a way to give a nod to these three things in some way that would be kickass. Just a modest request from someone who greatly enjoyed the first trek.

  • June 15, 2011, 4:19 p.m. CST


    by son_of_ebert

    what he said

  • June 15, 2011, 4:34 p.m. CST

    Ct1- we did not test Trek in front of focus groups

    by Boborci

    Nor will we test or have we tested Cowboys and Aliens, so the alterations you speak of to please audiences is simply not the case. But even if we did, what is so wrong with pleasing audiences?

  • June 15, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    Nor do you need to

    by CT1

    The "big stupid audience" formula itself has solidified over the years, all it takes is competence and staying out of the way to not fuck it up. There's nothing wrong with pleasing audiences; it's the reason and motivation for doing it.

  • June 15, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    by CT1

    And the cost that comes with it.

  • June 15, 2011, 4:59 p.m. CST

    Bob Orci

    by TheDrow

    I can't say that I like everything you've written, but then I can't say that I like everything that even my favorite authors have written. Nor can I say that I agree with all of the decisions you've made, reference a number of the issues that Copernicus raised and I've already commented on. What I will say though, is that as a life long fan of science fiction and fantasy, a writer myself and a creator of many of my own worlds, I have a huge respect for what you do. You tell enjoyable and often beautiful stories. You engage your fans in a way that most authors and creators would never consider, both good and bad. And you seem to honestly care about the craft of story telling and the worlds you strive to create. Do you get it right all the time? No. Should you occasionally let peoples shit pass instead of firing back? Yes. But then you're human just like the rest of us. So I measure you only by the standards I hold myself to. And I say thank you. Thank you for telling stories and for coming here to chat with us, about the good and the bad. It’s something I wish far far more creators would do. The Drow

  • June 15, 2011, 5:01 p.m. CST

    ccchhhrrriiisssm: "Beside the error of grammatical usage..."

    by AssyMuffJizz

    Grammarian, grammar-rape thyself!

  • June 15, 2011, 5:08 p.m. CST


    by Boborci

    Thanks. You should know 99 pecent of time, i dont fire back. And i only really open fire here in talkack. Different on other sites.

  • June 15, 2011, 5:08 p.m. CST

    And, incidentally ccchhhrrriiisssm... about your grammar correction

    by AssyMuffJizz

    There is in fact nothing incorrect about describing IQ as "slowly inching downwards." Your "Beside the error of grammatical usage," however, is incorrect in two ways: 1) "Beside" should be "Besides" 2) "error of grammatical usage" is a hopelessly awkward and redundant phrase. It should simply be "grammar error." A word of advice: don't fuck with the well educated, you illiterate punk.

  • June 15, 2011, 5:40 p.m. CST

    hey boborci

    by gerhard_futkanister

    i have to give you credit for getting the relationship between kirk and spock nicely. see, we're getting to know each other and the slap on the shoulder was a very kirk moment and well done. but please - a little bit more effort in the rest of the shit - it can't be that hard to work out these grating plot holes the movie had. don't be responsible for dumbing down the public more and more. you have the opportunity to write movies that get seen by millions of people all over the world - i know you probably do a lot of cocaine, but still, try to think outside of your hollywood box and rise above the stupidity. it will only help your image, not diminish it, and one day in your life you might enjoy to not only be considered a massive hack. oh, sorry, i wanted to stay positive, but man, your transformers movies are just so bad. and the star trek plot holes. the retarded science. ugh. but anyway: there was a lot of good in the first star trek. keep that up and get cracking on the stuff that was just dumb and you have a winner. it's not like it's just talkbackers who have those issues, it's the average movie goer. just think about it like this: it might make 100 million more if it was the same fun and less retarded. think of the amounts of cocaine you could afford!

  • June 15, 2011, 5:41 p.m. CST

    Hey Bob.

    by Gabba-UK

  • June 15, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST

    Hey Bob. Again. (what's wrong with the site today)

    by Gabba-UK

    Minor quibbles aside, I enjoyed your take on Trek a lot. I thought you honoured the history but gave it a fresh angle which Trek SORELY needed. Some people would only be happy if Paramount were on the 20th season TNG, explaining Data's middle age spread as his way of blending in with his friends old age. Lame. My advice, (who am I to give you advice, I can barely write a TB) is to steer well clear of established Trek lore i.e. Kahn. Not that you couldn't do it or that some would never except it and slag you off but because you have a whole galaxy to play with in a parallel reality. Make your own lore. Also, tell JJ to cut back on the lens flare a bit in the next one. It looked cool in a lot of places but it got boring pretty quickly.

  • June 15, 2011, 5:57 p.m. CST

    howdy, bobo

    by AssyMuffJizz

    i have to give you credit for getting the relationship between kirk and spock nicely. see, we're getting to know each other and the slap on the shoulder was a very kirk moment and well done. but please - a little bit more effort in the rest of the shit - it can't be that hard to work out these grating plot holes the movie had. don't be responsible for dumbing down the public more and more. you have the opportunity to write movies that get seen by millions of people all over the world - i know you probably do a lot of coke, but still, try to think outside of your hollywood box and rise above the stupidity. it will only help your image, not diminish it, and one day in your life you might enjoy to not only be considered a massive hack. oh, sorry, i wanted to stay positive, but man, your transformers movies are just so bad. and the star trek plot holes. the retarded science. ugh. but anyway: there was a lot of good in the first star trek. keep that up and get cracking on the stuff that was just dumb and you have a winner. it's not like it's just talkbackers who have those issues, it's the average movie goer. just think about it like this: it might make 100 million more if it was the same fun and less retarded. think of the amounts of coke you could afford!

  • June 15, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    @ assymuffjizz:

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    You are fucking kidding yourself if you want to claim to be "well-educated." Your points are rejected, btw. "Beside" was merely a typo (leaving out the "s" with my browser spell check). You are simply an ASSHOLE. No one likes you. That is why you spend hours on AICN complaining about a MOVIE that many people enjoyed. In the immortal words of Shatner, "GET A LIFE."

  • June 15, 2011, 6:26 p.m. CST


    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    Keep hiding behind your keyboard, you pathetic would-be film critic. I suppose that Bob Orci, J.J. Abrams and Co. can be comforted by the understanding that you will ALWAYS be a loser who envies people who moved out of the basement and actually accomplished something in life. Keep that silly armchair film criticism coming, most "educated" ass. I imagine that Bob isn't losing any sleep from it. I know that I'm not. However, until they discover a cure, I suggest that you continue to take your medication. ;-)

  • June 15, 2011, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Missing this talkback is the price I pay for having a job.

    by conspiracy

    Halfway through it...and fucking great so far

  • June 15, 2011, 6:55 p.m. CST


    by CreepyThinMan

    That's why everything you write is moronic shit aimed at drooling cretins which explains why you thrive in Hollywood. I'm sure you could win an Oscar because, hey, if a talentless cocksucker like Akiva Goldsman can get one then you certainly have a shot. But you'll never have a Chinatown, Network or Taxi Driver to your name. You're content to be the Hollywood equivalent of a Mexican day laborer, mowing the lawns of studio executives and raking up the green for them. And despite all of your success, neither you or those two other hacks you associate with would ever take that clout and do something that you feel passionate about and that's because you have no convictions to speak. A sign of true character is not the power that someone has but how they use it and, I'm sorry to say, your output shows that you have no character to speak of. Do you not aspire to be anything but a studio bitch who deals in nothing but mediocrity?

  • June 15, 2011, 6:56 p.m. CST

    Hey, catchtheman

    by Dr. Hfuhruhurr

    You come on a message board to intentionally hurt and insult another human being. Why? Because a piece of entertainment didn't live up to your standards? Get the fuck over it! The problem with the internet is that things written by idiots that were once relegated to bathroom walls are now public to a world-wide audience. And yes, I see the irony in calling you an idiot but you actually deserved it. You're trying to hurt another person who actually never did anything to you.

  • June 15, 2011, 6:59 p.m. CST


    by AssyMuffJizz

    Oh, hey buddy. No hard feelings. I didn't mean to rile you up. If I had known you were a well meaning sycophant and not simply a typical, silly troll, I would've gone easier on you. Carry on. And keep up the good work, friendo. Who knows? Perhaps if you play your cards right, you'll make it into Mr. Orci's inner circle one day. Take care, chief.

  • June 15, 2011, 7:12 p.m. CST


    by albrecht_during

    "The problem with the internet is that things written by idiots that were once relegated to bathroom walls are now public to a world-wide audience" The same thing could be said about Orci's writing instead of the internet. This is the racist who came up with Skids and Mudflap and the jive monkey robot from Transformers...

  • Wrong.

  • I have no doubt that he is more than happy with the money he's made from the garbage he peddles. He's probably sitting in a plush office and giggling over the stuff we write because most writers are egotistical douchebags (see Drew McWeeny) and Orci is no different. He and Kurtzman most likely take their cocks out of each others mouth long enough to laugh at us because we didn't rimjob the right people to get where they are. But the Catch-22 is that they also crave recognition and respect which is the only reason why people like him and that piece of shit Don Murphy troll places like AICN. Orci is looking for an audience to suck his dick and thinks that we'll fawn over him because he's managed to climb the Hollywood ladder, not through talent and quality of work, but because he's at the right place at the right time and has the right connections. That's all and if it wasn't him then it would be some other hack writer. I figure that Orci is aiming to launch a Directing career but, like every other piece of shit, he's waiting for a big budget studio offer rather than taking some of the MILLIONS he's made and financing something he has a burning desire to make. It's similar to how all of those fucking hack Directors (Bay, Ratner, McG, Snyder, Nispel etc...) worked as music video and commercial Director's for years, raking in the money, and only moved into features when they were offered a cushy feature gig by a studio. We are a long way away from the days of De Palma, Scorsese and Coppola running around, making short films and raising financing to get their first features off the ground. Or guys like Towne and Schrader who were given the opportunity to Direct just because of the sheer talent they displayed in their work. Orci has no such talent so he will continue to suck studio cock until they no doubt offer him the next remake, sequel or reboot on schedule.

  • June 15, 2011, 7:49 p.m. CST

    Mudflap & Skids (for albrecht_during)

    by submarinevoyage

    Orci and Kurtzman were not the ones responsible for Mudflap and Skids and based on previous comments, you won't find them defending those characters. Here's what they had to say about it a couple of years ago:

  • June 15, 2011, 7:51 p.m. CST


    by Dr. Hfuhruhurr

    If the criticism was about racism that's different, but it wasn't.

  • June 15, 2011, 8 p.m. CST


    by albrecht_during

    and what about the "black" robot in transformers 1? you remember, the only one of the robots who for some reason spoke ebonics and conveniently also died first? when did they backpaddle from _that_ decision? i think a couple of hacks churning out so much shit as in the transformers movies and then not wanting to have anything to do with it is just weak. fucking coke heads.

  • June 15, 2011, 8 p.m. CST


    by albrecht_during

    you didnt get it.

  • Only after the movie came out, of course, then heaped the blame on Bay (who we all know is a racist neo-con tool that blows the military at every opportunity) instead of, say, refusing to write those characters like that or demanding that they're names be taken off the credits. "But, but, but, the writers strike was on and we didn't have anything to do with that, it was all Bay's fault"is usually the next excuse we hear from Herr Orci who was just "following orders". I get the feeling that Orci and Kurtzman would be more than happy to help Mel Gibson shove Jews into an oven if there was a big enough check being offered. You both fucking sicken me.

  • June 15, 2011, 8:17 p.m. CST

    albrecht_during, ABOUT JAZZ (THE "BLACK" TRANSFORMER) FROM PART 1......

    by CreepyThinMan

    At the time of the original cartoon Jazz was written as jive talking robot which was emphasized by Scatman Crothers distinctive voice. Was it wrong, perhaps, but that was back in the mid-80’s which was, shall we say, a less enlightened time. But at NO TIME was Jazz portrayed as incompetent or, for God sakes, illiterate nor did he have the physical characteristics of a fucking monkey. What Bay, Orci and Kurtzman did in Transformers 2 with the twins was blatantly racist.

  • June 15, 2011, 8:23 p.m. CST


    by albrecht_during

    okay, i have to admit i dont know anything about these toy adverts. i still dont see it as an excuse to repeat the old racist shit. thats like making a remake of song of the south thats just as racist as the original with the excuse that they wanted to stay faithful to the original characters.

  • June 15, 2011, 8:27 p.m. CST


    by Dr. Hfuhruhurr

    No, you didn't get it.

  • June 15, 2011, 8:29 p.m. CST


    by albrecht_during

    just... just die please...

  • June 15, 2011, 8:45 p.m. CST

    Pardon me, my fine fellows, but it was *I* who didn't get it.

    by AssyMuffJizz

  • June 15, 2011, 8:47 p.m. CST

    Yeah, we were all racist in the 80's

    by Dr. Hfuhruhurr

    Eddie Murphy was the biggest box office star, Bill Cosby was the biggest TV star, Michael Jackson was the biggest music star, Michael Jordan was the biggest athlete, but don't kid yourself... we were alllll racists.

  • June 15, 2011, 8:57 p.m. CST


    by albrecht_during

    what the fuck are you even talking about?? you read the word "racist" and latch onto it for no reason whatsoever. wasn't your mission originally to defend orci's human right of not being called out for writing shitty screenplays?

  • June 15, 2011, 9:23 p.m. CST

    You brought up racism, not me

    by Dr. Hfuhruhurr

  • June 15, 2011, 9:27 p.m. CST

    Good science fiction is hard to write

    by YackBacker

    And the economics of film production demand dumbed-down material from the studio's perspective. But then comes along a show like DOCTOR WHO, which focuses on character and embraces its intellectual side while imbuing its stories with fun and adventure. STAR TREK, at its best, does the same thing. What makes STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE interesting is its complete devotion to a riddle without relying on the drama a cackling villain. What makes STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME wonderful is its ability to tap into the charm of the characters. If someone can write a STAR TREK film that gets both of those elements together, that would be a worthy entry and a proper tribute to Gene Roddenberry's original vision. Blowing up Vulcan, shaking up the crew dynamics, etc. is all fine and diverting, but that can only go so far. Add to the mythology, I say. Don't fall back into timelines/time travel for storytelling. Try to open up possibilities with these excellent characters (and very capable new actors).

  • June 15, 2011, 9:53 p.m. CST

    You know, Copernicus is right.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    I think we've all gotten out our $21.50's worth of bitterness over the last couple of years and that's good. Hollywood and people in Hollywood should know of our dissatisfaction over the things we don't like. Builds Character as a my imaginary TV dad used to tell me. ...Though knowing producers (sadly I've come across a few) putting your 2 cents in the pot only makes most of them more skittish and afraid to take chances. I think there is a lot of really bland crap that comes out of Hollywood precisely because some of those powers in Hollywood do hear the outrage, and some of them literally hail from a nest of dissatisfied nerds like the aintitcool talk backs. BUT if you're actually reading this I'll concede there are also quite a few really fucking stupid producers to be sure. <P> Anyway, I'm kind of off topic here. Some one above put it plain, Bob is a human being and doesn't really deserve vitriol spit in his eye just because a piece of entertainment didn't live up to our expectations. Very true. Its also a shame that the last talk back turned into the same old tired bitch fest and I feel kind of bad about that. So for what it's worth I apologize to Boborci and also to Copernicus, because that could have been a much more interesting and constructive talk back. Yeah, I know I've been pretty much a bitch. With that said I still don't like Bob's Star Trek, and think some of the points he made here with iffy, but I can't fault a guy for trying to stick up for his work. <P> I do hope they really knock it out of the ball park with the next installment and don't just try to create a reboot of wrath of Khan. If anything It would be nice to see them take a page from Nicolas Meyer and do something like Undiscovered country and really broaden the scope beyond some single villain. Or take a page from Steven Moffat and use some of the plot holes and gripes from the first movie and try and turn them into plot elements and dialog for the next -- you know, like mulching dead plants to fertilize the next crop. <P> Anyway Bob. Wish you well at least. Thanks for playing.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:11 p.m. CST

    fuck that, pepperspray

    by albrecht_during

    "Hollywood should know of our dissatisfaction over the things we don't like" "doesn't really deserve vitriol spit in his eye just because a piece of entertainment didn't live up to our expectations" what now? and nobody needs you to apologize on behalf of everyone in the talkback you smug fucker.

  • When Orci and Kurtzman wrote the last Trek movie, all they did was reverse engineer the story so that all of the characters ended up where they were on the original TV show while turning Kirk into Maverick from Top Gun. They also cherry picked over 40 years of Trek history while adding not a single fucking new thing to the concept or mythology. They didn't even have the balls to just start the film with everyone where they needed to be and just have an adventure, no, it just needed to be a fucking origin story only because that's what every other franchise is doing these days and these two cunts had their marching orders. Their villain and his super-weapon were generic while there was GIGANTIC FUCKING PLOT-HOLES GALORE, retarded character motivation not to mention lazy shit all over the place. Given that the movie was a huge hit, do you really expect these fucking assholes to work to make a better story for the next one? Of course they wont. This is why they'll use Khan and/or the Klingon's because their goal is not to come up with something new and interesting, it's to regurgitate Trek lore for the modern day morons of middle America who reward badly written movies with great success. If it's fast paced enough and has plenty of action, the low foreheads of the USA will gladly march into the theaters like lemmings off a fucking cliff, pushed by the proverbial broom of flashy advertising.

  • June 15, 2011, 10:29 p.m. CST


    by Dr_PepperSpray

    Good point sir. <P> I'm also really enjoying Doctor Who lately. Science be damned, the plot (for me anyway) is so engaging and the characters are so much fun to watch. I also really like the dialog, that even though it's tech mumbo jumbo, at least people will ask questions and an answer is given. That's one of the things that frustrated me about LOST and ultimately why I stopped watching, no one speaks up. No one even seems remotely curious. I mean, there is a big friggen monster in the woods that only a few people have seen and no one thinks to ask "Hey, what did it look like?" or "Hey, what happened to the monster?" <P> ... I think the most egregious mistake was when Eco burns a plane in the middle of the woods which sends up ---a pillar of smoke--- and this isn't noticed by the people on the beach... even after they went out of their way the previous Episode to point out that the "others" signal their approach by ---a pillar of smoke. I know I'm just supposed to ignore it but Fuck! Can't the writers just pay attention to what they're doing? Why do I have to do the heavy lifting? <P> Even in Star Trek, here you have this massive leviathan looking thing, with people inside you've never seen before, it destroys a valuable ship I'm sure and then no one really talks about it again. It doesn't even become legend to the old timers. Where are the Star Fleet veterans by the way? ..and in 20 years people just sort of forgot about this incredibly strange event except Kirk; Kirk who was too young to remember at the time. Its just frustrating. <P> Sorry, I'm just being drunk and geeky. <P> But yeah, Doctor Who. haha

  • June 15, 2011, 10:30 p.m. CST

    Star Trek 2009: From the writers of Xena and Hercules

    by KilliK

    that's all that you need to know

  • June 15, 2011, 10:43 p.m. CST

    Also: Lindelof is a lurker.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    Get in here and mix it up Lindelof!

  • June 15, 2011, 11:52 p.m. CST


    by CreepyThinMan

    At least the epic Eccleston and Tennant era as I fucking LOATH the Matt Smith version which feels small and cheap. Anywho, I don't give a fuck about scientific accuracy as long as I have a compelling story that gets me emotionally involved. But what I won’t forgive is massive and outright stupid contradictions. Everything has to make reasonable sense and not betray its own logic. Star Trek 90210 was filled with huge gaping plotholes, inconsistencies galore and an insane amount of dumb shit that these lazy fucks did just to keep the story moving. Also, NuWho had lots of great idea’s driving their stories which is why I fell in love with the show. New Trek has no idea’s, no theme’s and no subtext except for the usual Freudian parental issues as I said earlier.

  • June 15, 2011, 11:55 p.m. CST

    Well put dr_pepperspray....

    by conspiracy

  • June 16, 2011, 12:03 a.m. CST

    Whats with all the hate?

    by crimsoncinder

    Star Trek was brought out of the toilet. You complain about science in Star Trek, yet do you know recall the last 3 steaming piles called movies? This movie was entertaining, fast paced and its not like this is armageddon bad science. So what about black hole theories? Take a layer of tape off your 2lb black rimmed glasses, pull the stick out and fucking enjoy a movie. I dare you.

  • June 16, 2011, 12:03 a.m. CST

    If it really is BobOrci...

    by Stormwalkers

    ... then all of you should probably give him some kudos for actually putting up with the childish crap that gets posted in these talkbacks. Sometimes it's like a competition on here to see who can be the most childish. Yet this guy apparently takes time out to interact with the anonymous mob, and read the vitriol? Good work, he's clearly got a thicker skin than most of the pre-pubescents and cellar dwelling 40 somethings on here. Yeah you don't like his writing, fine. How about you put some time and effort into writing a concise and cogent critique that is worth reading. 'OMG nipplez on a batsuit' and 'avataz will fuck yo eyeballz' might be hilarious on 4chan, but if you're going to direct it at BobOrci and expect him or anyone else to take it seriously, you're fucking deluded. If it isn't BobOrci and just some pleb who he has stitched up royally then even more kudos because I can practically taste the hilarity. If I were the real BobOrci (TM) and someone asked me if I posted on AintItCool. I would probably be an asshole and say, 'Sure, my username is Asimovlives'. Just to fuck with you lot.

  • June 16, 2011, 12:06 a.m. CST

    What I would change though...

    by crimsoncinder

    Forget the science, how about coming fresh out of the academy and becoming a captain in less then a few days. That didn't happen in the navy of yester year. Wheres the nit pick on that? When filming in the engine room, did the kegs have beer and did anyone tap em?

  • June 16, 2011, 12:18 a.m. CST

    But that doesn't mean we still won't bust Bobs Balls...

    by conspiracy

    I mean after is so damned fun...cathartic in a way. Best of all, unlike most whiner fucking entertainment ppl... Bob can take it..the guy is a sport. Lets be honest...he's one of us; or he'd be like some fucking poseurs that show up here only when their project needs a PR boost. Out of all the people in the business who we know lurk about on here and other places online...he is the only one with the balls to use his own name and to engage us without any Hwood Douchebaggery or attitude. Hell...he guy doesn't even whine to the boot licking mods when we get on a roll. Now...I'm NOT gonna toss his fucking salad and throw in a reach around like "thedrow" did....but I respect Bob;and hope he tightens up the next Trek and relies less on the implausible to make a story work.

  • June 16, 2011, 2:45 a.m. CST

    Dont everyone get all soft on me now or I'm gonna cry. Hug?;)

    by Boborci

  • Do something original already. More Trek? Great. Lame, revisionist Trek? 1000 Gorn dicks rubbing in, on and about your person simultaneously.

  • June 16, 2011, 4:37 a.m. CST


    by Bass Ackwards

    That was my biggest nitpick as well. I could even go with it for the film, as they worked it into that circumstantially, but I kind of wish at the end of the film they would have just made Kirk Pike's First Officer, it just feels more palatable and I actually would enjoy a sequel with Pike as captain and Kirk as the number one (beside the number one is the guy who gets to do all the away missions anyways).

  • June 16, 2011, 4:53 a.m. CST

    Just keep JJ,Boborci and Kurtz the fuck away from

    by KilliK

    the inevitable reboot of TNG. at least that way there is a chance some talented creator to revive that era in the proper way while making a great movie. Although something tells me that Paramount will play the fanservice card: crowd as many characters as possible in the same movie without giving a fuck about the established continuity,and the sheep minded fanboys will put their asses on the seats when the movie premieres.

  • June 16, 2011, 8:27 a.m. CST

    catchtheman, agreed

    by YackBacker

    I'm less harsh on Matt Smith, I think Moffat's choices are causing the Matt Smith run to feel much less whimsical (and downright dreary in certain instances), but in terms of the overall Nu Who run, we're completely on the same page. The science can be wrong in science fiction, but it shouldn't be utterly ridiculous and carelessly conceived.

  • June 16, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    Only ST:TOS will ever be rebooted

    by AssyMuffJizz

    The TV shows which followed it are dispensable comparatively--at least to the common horde of viewers.

  • June 16, 2011, 10:23 a.m. CST

    question for boborci/lindelof

    by animas

    can you tell us what you were hired to do by Universal studios with the cowboys and aliens script? what were the studio's instructions? was Fergus and Ostby's story just unfinished or what?

  • June 16, 2011, 11:04 a.m. CST



    The Adventures of Alexander, Son of Worf

  • June 16, 2011, 11:38 a.m. CST

    the adventures of alexander, son of worf

    by gerhard_futkanister


  • June 16, 2011, noon CST

    Asi, you may be right...

    by Stalkeye

    ..after all, Orci was uncredited for "polishing" the Watchmen Film. And no doubt, I'm sure he wrote that stupid Owl Ship sex scene. This Mexican't is just another hack in Hollywood and I for one, can't wait till Cowboys & Aliens bomb. I'll be shocked if it even surpasses First Class' numbers. (Box office revenue.) Can't fucking wait.

  • June 16, 2011, 12:09 p.m. CST

    catchtheman, RE: TF2

    by Stalkeye

    Orci and Kuntzman can't lay the blame on that asshole Bay without first looking in the mirror. After all, they wrote the racist drivel that was the "Ghettobots" and I guess those fuckers didnt care about the portrayal of Blacks, just the almighty dollar. What's odd is that Orci and Kurtzman are Mexican and Jewish (repectively) ergo it's not if their Race or Religion is above persecution. *Ahem*

  • June 16, 2011, 12:38 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    I really believe that Orci is taking clues from JJ Abrams and he's mirroring his career after him. He's stepping on the same footsets that Abrams did. Fringe is Orci's own Alias. It's his springboard for something bigger. I wouldn't be surpised at all if this or next year we would get the news that Orci would make his directing debut in some typical Holywood blockbuster movie. Maybe amsaller start then Abrasm's 150 million dollars budget MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 3, but hewill start pretty big compared to other directors who didn't started their careers as studio shrills before moving to directing. Again, like Abrams himself.

  • June 16, 2011, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Orci is just in here to be adored.

    by AsimovLives

    Listening to criticism, evne of the constructive type? nonsense! He's here to have his ass kissed, plain and simple. And of course, his wish is more then satisfied even by people who OUGHT to know better.

  • June 16, 2011, 12:45 p.m. CST

    Hmm... Lets see. On the Nazi following orders analogy

    by Boborci

    It falls apart because we werent following orders. To understand that, you first have to understand that the Transformers are not real. Tney are computer genereated. In essence, they are animation. Which means they can be written and rewritten in the editing room long after the movie is shot, which is what Bay did. Furthermore, when we saw it, we argued with Michael. Fought, actually. We told him that he shouldnt keep those lines because some people might genuinely take offense. Now, that doesnt mean that we believe Bay is racist. Not at all. He was just going for fun and entertainment. And though we could argue endlessly wether the portrayals are racist given that these are alien robots we are talking about. Whatever the truth of the matter, we were aware that some might be able to make the argument as some of you are making. Obviously, we failed to convince our director, and for that i will take some reposnibility. But facts are facts. If i had written those lines or scripted gold teeth, i would telll you. I am not sufficiently impressed with the detractors here to spend any effort lying to them. No need to apologize.

  • This joke has gone for too long, but it's time to put an end to it. I'm the real Orci. And i do have a wicked sense of humour. We, i should say. Of course boborci, aka Alex, will deny this, he will keep incharacter, just to futher mind-screw you all. We love this kind of mind-screw. And you have seen nothing yet.

  • June 16, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    You tell them, Alex. Oh sorry, i mean, boborci

    by AsimovLives

  • June 16, 2011, 1:16 p.m. CST


    by victor laszlo

    What this Trek had the opportunity to do in rebooting the franchise was re-assert what it actually means TO BOLDLY GO. The marketing guys got it. That first teaser promised a film bridging our modern age with the optimistic future of a thriving spacefaring civilization. The posters chose the right tagline... but none of that was in the script. Leaning on parental and friendship issues is fine for drama, but Star Trek had a grander theme that you did not capitalize on. A positive human future in which new worlds are everywhere. It wouldn't have taken much. One 5-min scene might have done it. Here's a retro-active suggestion:: Kirk's academic trial is over. New scene is Graduation/ Commencement/ Christening of the Enterprise. There is a brief speech by an older starfleet officer, maybe even Pike if you want. He explains in just a few sentences that there was a time when humanity was confined to just one planet, when we had only just touched our own moon. There was a time when a few shades of skincolor divided all of us, when we fought endlessly amongst ourselves over resources we thought were limited. In fact, they were everywhere above us in the black sky, just waiting for us to become clever enough to seize. He tells them this new ship carries the name Enterprise, a storied name born by great ships that found new shores throughout human history. Now that we've mustered the courage to boldly go where no one had gone before, the future is yours blah-blah-blah, to make... //////////alarms go off////////// emergency 'cadets'-to-your-shuttles scene commences. With a simple stroke like that, your film could have had real meaning. It could have been about what Gene Roddenberry created the whole damn thing for in the first place. Instead, you seem so afraid of what STar Trek was that you wrote a space opera instead, with spaceships standing in for horses or racecars, and no regard for what the setting of the film actually meant. The only mention of what Starfleet actually does is dismissed with an eyeroll. It's background talk. The idea that you go to college and graduate into a space explorer exists only in the matte paintings. Sure, it happens in the movie, but WHY? WHY DO WE BOLDLY GO? That context is missing. Lip service might have been enough. But the best we got was that stellar TEASER trailer containing the most powerful moments in the whole film (or out of it). It seems clear that you treated this more like fantasy than an achievable future. You failed to find the spirit that defines the best of Trek, but that is no reason you couldn't get it right this time. There are a handful of EXCELLENT trailers for a documentary on Youtube, entitled TREK NATION, please watch them. THAT is what you have the capability, the responsibility, to honor, to capture, to conjure, to unleash upon a public who really does want and need it - whether we know it or not.

  • June 16, 2011, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Which tag line? The future begins?

    by Boborci

    I wrote that bit of copy, so thanks!

  • June 16, 2011, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Nicely said, Victor.

    by KnowItAllFromCali

  • June 16, 2011, 1:44 p.m. CST

    Both of them!

    by victor laszlo

    THE FUTURE BEGINS. and TO BOLDLY GO. So yes, I love that --- (and I really do love a lot of things about the dialogue in the film. There's a great energy to it so I don't mean to disparage the whole thing). I just feel that it's missing the real engine of what Trek means to so many people, and what it means to the whole idea of space exploration. This is incredibly important now, almost as much as ever, with the end of the Space Shuttle program and an uncertain future for manned spaceflight. This new rip-roaring adventurous Trek franchise could play a vital role in defining what the real value of the Final Frontier is to humanity at large. And it is vital. Our survival literally depends on it. There are powerful ideas and arguments being made everyday in the space enthusiast community that aren't connecting with the public at large. These films could really dare us to dream and show us a positive future antidote to the apocalyptic visions that now plague nearly all of science-fiction. There's no reason a blast of a summer Trek film can't also drive kids to become the scientists & engineers who will bring about it's promise. I'd love to see a sequel that more fully embraces that. I think it's cool that you're here talking to us about this. Thanks.

  • June 16, 2011, 1:49 p.m. CST

    About the characterisation of Jazz:

    by Dingbatty

    Go listen to the podcast interview with Marty Isenberg, the writer of Transformers Animated, at Art & Story (podcast #68). They interviewed him because the writing on that show was surprisingly better than it had any right to be. Marty said that he was uncertain how to create the persona of Jazz without it coming across as racist. So he thought about the character's name, and had the idea of having him speak in old-fashioned jazz musician/jazz fan slang. Now if only the writers of the live action movies had put that much thought into it. Anyhow, the interview is here:

  • Only AFTER the movie came out and you and Kurtzman were doing damage control. If you really felt strongly about the racial overtones that you CLAIM were Bay's doing, why didn't you implore the producers to change it or are you suggesting that Steven Spielberg is perfectly happy with the disgusting racism displayed in TF2 because if you had any fucking balls you would have went to him and said "Hey, we think this shit is offensive so could you tell your lapdog Bay to tone that shit down?!" Oh and FYI you condescending asswipe, I am quite aware that the Transformers are CGI creations but I also happen to know that despite the fact that thing's can be "written and rewritten in the editing room long after the movie is shot, which is what Bay did." it also takes a long time to process and render those shots so it's not like Bay could have changed the robots personality and looks at the last minute not to mention that the vocal performances need to be locked down months in advance for filming the background plates, especially considering how much screentime the twins take up in the movie. Pre-visualization, pre-production artwork, voice capture, shooting, post-production, wireframe models, texture mapping, lighting and atmosphere all need to be applied to CGI characters and that takes enough time that you must have seen what he was doing at least during the early stages of Post-production which started at least a year before the movie was released. So you're a fucking liar. Who do you think you're talking to Orci? Some dumbshit fanboys on a message board? All of us are here because we love movies and quite a few of us know every aspect of movie production so don't think for one second that you can run circles around because you don't have the skillz. Either you and Kurtzman were directly involved in the racism displayed in TF2 or you sat quietly by and kept your cocksuckers shut out of fear of being replaced if you didn't give Bay what he wanted. As I said, if you were really that offended, you would have refused to be credited, but you didn't, so you're either a racist or a coward. But you are most definitely a liar. P.S. Where's that piece of shit Don Murphy? I don't see him coming to your defense like he did back in 09 on the talkback of Harry's TF2 review? He called you and Kurtzman "princes and gentlemen" but I guess that since you're no longer hitched to the Transformers moneytrain he probably doesn't have any time for the two of you, just as I predicted two years ago, because he's a fucking parasite who kissed your ass when it was convenient and benefited him. You better watch out because he'll no doubt eventually write a tell all book detailing what fucking scumbags you and Kurtzman are while painting himself as the soul creative force behind the Transformers films just as he and Jane Hamsher did to Oliver Stone. Or he'll sue you for farting in his direction like he did when he got his fat pussyface beat in by QT and was left a blubbering mess of lard pissing himself on the floor of that restaurant. In closing Orci you, Murphy, Kurtzman and Lindelof are all turds swirling around the Hollywood toilet bowl.

  • I'm sure that the title "Batman Begins" didn't come into play in that profound piece of copy that you coined, did it? But technically isn't the future always beginning with each new nanosecond which gives an infinite amount of permutations in the space-time continuum if you believe in the concept of alternate realities? But then how do you account for tachyons which suggest that the future is predetermined and if that is the case then how can you reconcile that concept with the idea of alternate realities in which case the infinite number of new realities each has a self contained timeline that can be traveled through in reverse? Doesn't that in itself negate the possibility of traveling forward in time and even if you could, you would alter the flow of whatever reality you were in which means that if you traveled back through time you would only be doing so through whatever permutation of the space-time continuum that you were in. And if my Aunt had a cock would that make her my Uncle? Sorry if all of these concept are too much for you to grasp as they have nothing to do with Mommy and Daddy issues or simplistic revenge tales. How about in the next Trek you try to avoid the PEW PEW PEW KABOOM style storytelling and give us a moral or ethical dilemma based on some interesting Sci-fi concept, eh? Or a race against time and by that I don't mean MORE FUCKING TIME TRAVEL as Trek is about space exploration. Leave the time travel to Doctor Who. But I'm sure that all you and you're retarded little buddies will come up with is yet another villain with a super-weapon, bent on revenge and it will involve even more time travel just because Star Trek 2, 4 and First Contact are regarded as the best of the series. You bring absolutely NOTHING new to Star Trek. NOTHING what-so-fucking-ever and that is because YOU FUCKING SUCK!

  • June 16, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    victor laszlo's comments....


    i could not agree more on. you should be using the honor of writing your own Trek film to not only make a great film, but push the idea of how awesome space travel is for the good of humanity. take it to the next level, you have a great opportunity to inspire a whole generation of potential astronauts and explorers. We are the coming of the space age. Entertainment is the most powerful form of influence of people these days. And what better way to use sci-fi to inspire the possibilities of our own reality.

  • June 16, 2011, 2:22 p.m. CST

    Orci The Suck

    by AsimovLives

    I heard that the name Orci means, in ancient spanish, "He Who Sucks Ass".

  • June 16, 2011, 2:23 p.m. CST


    by spidercoz

    dude, chill, take a lithium

  • June 16, 2011, 3:19 p.m. CST


    by Boborci

    Bay has final cut, so the only person to appeal to was Bay. Did you read what i said? We FOUGHT about it. Yelled at each other. So we didnt sit quietly by. Which part of that wasnt clear up top?As for credit, we learned a long time ago that it is not a classy move to take your name off a movie or a show. It could hurt the movie and hurt everyone else who worked on it. You go tell Spielberg you r gonna take your name off and create a controversy on the movie brfore it even comes out. And incidently, you really dont know shit.

  • June 16, 2011, 3:33 p.m. CST

    Orci, please ignore the Catchtheman guy


    you're only feeding the troll. focus on the talkbackers that are actually trying to help and not hurt.

  • June 16, 2011, 3:42 p.m. CST

    Haters gonna hate! Star Trek is a great film

    by Ryan Kinsel

    The new Star Trek accomplished many things. The new Star Trek brought new fans to the property. People that don't really care for Sci fi, like the new Star Trek. Doesn't it get old talking about your favorite movies with the same nerds all the time. For example if any of you had a girlfriend she probably really like the new trek film. It is a great film and I'll be in line for the next one!

  • June 16, 2011, 3:44 p.m. CST

    So that's what this has come to.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    You're just spitting and hissing at Bob. <P> Oh, and in regards to Dr. Who, I really enjoy Matt Smith's run so far. I enjoyed the last season, which I felt had the best story arch with Amy Pond right above the whole Dr Donna business. I'm not sure what's exactly happening this season, but so far it's a proper mind fuck which really annoys some people. Not me. I think it's a fun puzzle to solve. Its fun to see where they go with it, but they are also doing a good job of linking previous episodes. Then again, some of you really hate the serial format over stand alone episodes. <P> Oh-well. Some people just can not be pleased.

  • June 16, 2011, 3:47 p.m. CST


    by victor laszlo

    Was there ever an intention to show the Christening ceremony of the Enterprise and/or it's ascension into orbit? Was this a budget/time/VFX or script thing? That was the hypothetical scene I was personally most excited about and hoped to see. Pike even mentions the delay and I'd held out hope we'd still get something like that in the finale. Would like to know what, if anything, happened there... Loved the writing on the proposed Shatner moment that showed up online awhile back... That great line about the size of the galaxy is what I'm talking about.

  • June 16, 2011, 3:48 p.m. CST

    ryank: My girlfriend is a Star Trek / StarWards nerd.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    And a pretty good looking one at that. Making baseless assumptions like "I bet you don't have a girlfriend" just ends up making you look petty.

  • June 16, 2011, 4:01 p.m. CST


    by Boborci

    I, too, would love to revel in a christening scene, but we wanted it to feel like normal trek was being interrupted by our new elements.

  • You can backpedal, waffle and tap dance all you like but the fact is that the racism is there, you knew about it and decided to stay silent until it was released and people brought it up. If you were really that upset about Bay making it more racist, as you claim, then you would have taken your name off the credits or given up any residuals or points that you got, but you didn't and you haven't, end of fucking story, anything you say otherwise is a lie. Oh and don't bother saying "well, why should I refuse payment for something I wrote which made a lot of money". I don't begrudge you your initial payment for being hired to write the script but if Bay made those changes against your will, as you claim, then you should have taken a stand as refused to take one cent from the backend or any gross participation. But I know that you get checks for it and that they are snugly deposited in your bank account. I guess your conscience doesn't keep you up at night when sleeping on a pillow filled with money. Besides, you have claimed in the past that Bay re-wrote the script due to the Writers strike and are now saying that he was directly responsible for the films racism, so if you had any balls you could have taken your name of the film and refused residuals from it while keeping the high ground. But you did NONE of those things. You kept quiet until the movie opened. Oh and you yelled at Bay? Yeah fucking right, like a toady such as yourself has the guts to do something like that when you didn't even take your name off the film due to how appalled you were at its racism, as you so claim. It just shows that you are a lapdog who takes orders and doesn't have the personal convictions to stand up for anything which explains why you write nothing but mindless drivel and are for sale to the highest bidder like the fucking whore that you are.

  • June 16, 2011, 4:15 p.m. CST

    Star Trek belongs on TV

    by spidercoz

    That's where it was always meant to be, that is where it is most effective and affective. Make your popcorny movies if you like, I'll watch them, I'll probably even enjoy them. But they'll never be as meaningful as the show. By the end of this decade (in best Kennedy voice) we will put a new Star Trek series on the air, and it will be a good show. It will be a show of thoughtfulness that seeks to understand the past, interpret the present, and speak to the future. It will be a show of ideas to inspire, to enlighten, to open minds to the unknown possibilities of existence. We will do this not because it is easy, but because it is hard.

  • June 16, 2011, 4:23 p.m. CST

    Agree with spidercoz

    by KnowItAllFromCali

    However, I think it is possible to do all of that in the movies as well.

  • June 16, 2011, 4:29 p.m. CST

    This argument is old...

    by KnowItAllFromCali

    Too many defensive people are lauding the fact that Star Trek has found a new audience without considering the possibility that (some of) the suggestions being offered here could do the same AND make existing fans happy. It is possible to have witty dialog, competent acting, cool effects, plenty of action, big ideas about our future, and a strong story that ties it all together.

  • I dont agree the film was racist, nor do i think for a second that Bay is racist. That did not prevent us from predicting and arguing that some people might perceive a few lines or elements as problematic. We predicted it. We fought it. Sadly we were right that some people took issue. Fortunately, only a very few people took issue or went with this "story" or pursued this line of criticism. We reponded accordingly, not as a form of damage control, bu as a form of "these are the facts of this situation." Weve always been open about the process as we experience it. But it wold be the height of stupidity to try and get out in front of a problem before we even know for sure if it is a problem with audiences.

  • So nowdays a movie is great just ebcause an undemanding geek got drunk and watched a movie and it satisfied his Michael Bay lust for shit blowing up and cheap ass teen series TV melodrama. Great used to mean something when describing a movie. It meant the describve the work of a great filmmaker who made a movie from passion and attention to detail. When words like "great" are usedto describe such a weak and bad movie like Abrams Trek, i know that words has no meaning anymore.

  • Some claim that it's theatrcial box office result is spectacular. but it's hardly more imrpessive then TERMINATOR SALVATION or CLASH OF THE TITANS, the former which is even dubbed a disaster. Spectacular sucess should be aplied to what movies like THE DARK KNIGHT and INCEPTION did at the box office. Even the godawful TRANSFORMERS 2. The latter even had Orci's involvement. Orci says that Bay is not a racist. I actually believe him. Or rather, i believe that Bay doesn't see hismefl as a racist. He just probably finds that type of ministrel with blacks humour hillarious. Bay's type of humour is pretty basic, as his movies show. I'm certain that Bay is completly unaware of the racist implications of the humour and those two appaling robots had. Which just makes Bay the look like the idiot that he is. As for Orci, no matter how much he tirse,s the black robots crap in Trasnformers 2 will always be a black spot on his career, no matter how much lye he will use to try clean it off. It's a done deal. He will have to live with the consequences. Hopefully, he learned the right lesson. But for how, his image as a butt-monkey for the studios cannot be erased or forgotten. The fact he's a mexican only makes it worst, since he's not one of the whiteys gringos as well.

  • You really believe that people are stupidier then you are. how coudl you hav enot taken for certain that those robots would be perceived as racism? It's beyond obvious. And still you had doubts the audiences would not be cluedn in? You waited until the movie was released to be certain? The presumption you guys have of the stupidity of the audiences is the major reason why i have such despise for you and Kurtzman and Abrams and Bay. You guys are unbelievable! Why don't you take an hint from filmamkers liek David Fincher and Christophr Nolan, actually learn from them and their movies and get inspired by them? Be inspired by the best, those who are workign today and those who have passed away but left a legacy of quality. Stop presuming audiences are stupid, because they are not. Start respecting the very people who are making you rich. How hard can that be?

  • June 16, 2011, 5:27 p.m. CST


    by Boborci

    Since you are in the minority, it is actually you who is claiming audiences are stupid for not agreeing with your minority opinion.

  • June 16, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST


    by Aaron

    I for one enjoyed the last Trek movie. I also enjoyed all of the others, including Search and Voyage. Trek 09 was exciting and fun. You fools must all be under a certain age to have the energy to nitpick about how the fucking engine room looked. I had a good time, I watched the movie a few times, the end. The way some people act it is like the filmmakers killed your families or something. It is, ultimately, a movie, and it is your choice to watch it or not. I am surprised this Orci character gives any of you the time of day. Dude is making movies AND getting paid very well to do it? Mad jealousy occurring. That is what I want to do. All notions of integrity are false. He is loving his life.

  • Yhat's the thing about you, you really thing you are smarter then eveybody else. You really believe you are the smarter man in the room. And you aren't. You cannot pull that crap in here and think you can get away with it. You do think and believe that audiences are dumb. How often you and your pals have said "but audiences will not get it". You guys live for that mantra. and your movies are a representation of that. And it's insulting. And it's also so insulting your lame atempts at spin. I don't know to whom that work with, but be assure, it doesn't work for everybody. You can fool some all the time. You can fool everybody for a time. But you can't fool everybody all the time. And Bobby, you are what, 40 years old now? Not even you by now can believe in the fallacy that popularity makes right. That's the type of shit that teens might believe because they don't know any better. Not the stuff that a more mature 40s years old would cling to as an argument. Again, it would be better if you start believing that there are people in this world, and in this forum who are as smart as you are. Or smarter. And the popularity of your work or your monetary sucess will have nothing to do with it. Bringing your supposed sucess only makes you petty. Somebody above said that deep down you actually carve for recognition. You do dream of validation. No matter how you will try to play cool, that's your dream. Well, as long you keep making the type of work you have, and as long you keep showing the same contempt you have for audience and even your own fans in here, you will not get it. You are an hack, Bobby, that's what you are.

  • June 16, 2011, 6:14 p.m. CST


    by Aaron

    I very much enjoyed the new Trek. There are parts of it that give me that old childhood, NEVERENDING STORY / MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE feeling, which is my yardstick of enjoyment for genre movies. I'm not being sarcastic- those are a couple of my all-time favorites. The movie could use more breathing room, a more subtle pace, but I understand that this was supposed to be a 'hook' movie to sell the next generation (heh) on Star Trek. These amoebic life forms do not know anything about reality, as the amount of time they spend on internet talkbacks attests to. It is cool of you to actually interact with people. My gf's eleven year old daughter thinks this is one of the coolest movies ever. That is something to be proud of, making kids happy. Real kids and people who enjoy life, not these sad pathetic bastards.

  • Allow me to kiss your ass until it turns blue! You are so like the greatest! Yeah! Keep dumb star trek so all my hick pals can get it! Thanks! Put Khan in your next movie, pelase, but make him like Nero, he's as so such the awesome original villain! And more shit blowing up too, i like shit blowing up, that's why i go to the movies.

  • QUOTE boborci - "Bay has final cut, so the only person to appeal to was Bay. Did you read what i said? We FOUGHT about it. Yelled at each other. So we didnt sit quietly by." So you first admit that you recognized the racism and continued..... QUOTE - "Furthermore, when we saw it, we argued with Michael. Fought, actually. We told him that he shouldnt keep those lines because some people might genuinely take offense." And now you're doing soo much fucking back peddling that you could turn back time, Superman style.... QUOTE boborci - "That did not prevent us from predicting and arguing that some people might perceive a few lines or elements as problematic. We predicted it. We fought it. Sadly we were right that some people took issue. Fortunately, only a very few people took issue or went with this "story" or pursued this line of criticism. We reponded accordingly, not as a form of damage control, bu as a form of "these are the facts of this situation." Weve always been open about the process as we experience it. But it wold be the height of stupidity to try and get out in front of a problem before we even know for sure if it is a problem with audiences" Fucking Ceiling Cat almighty Orci, you should've been a politician given the amount of fucking double talking you're doing to slime your way out of this. Of course, it’s not hard for me to hang you with your own words, it just takes simple logic, something that you have sadly never displayed in any of the worthless shit that you've scribbled. Finally, your response to asimovlives.... QUOTE boborci - "Since you are in the minority, it is actually you who is claiming audiences are stupid for not agreeing with your minority opinion." asimovlives is right and do you really think that just because millions of mindless morons lapped up your steaming bowel movement that it validates it as having quality? McDonald's is the biggest selling fast food franchise on the planet but does that mean that it compares to a steak dinner and, as I said earlier, 60 million fucking retards voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin. Your work is the lowest common denominator and only appeals to those with no taste or brains.

  • June 16, 2011, 8:12 p.m. CST

    Well It Seems Like AL's Finaly Lost It!

    by Real Deal

    Really asimovlives how do you ever expect to be taken seriously acting like such a child? Oh I forgot being taken seriously isn't important to you. You'd just rather troll. Well at least we know for sure what you are now. AL what do you hope to accomplish here? There will be another ST film and it'll probably do very well. Probably better than the first in the mean time you're just going to look extra silly posting even more venom here at AICN. Oh well whatever floats your boat.

  • Asi takes offense with people who think audiences are stupid, and catch just called American audiences stupid! May the smarterst of you win!

  • June 16, 2011, 9:43 p.m. CST

    I agree that fans should be largely ignored

    by Teddy Artery

    and filmmakers should focus on making the best piece of entertainment they can with what they have. If Rod Serling could make a great Twilight Zone episode with a ventriloquist's dummy, then the Trek filmmakers need to keep the ideas, adventure and fun in perspective no matter what people say and no matter how big or little the budget.

  • June 16, 2011, 9:49 p.m. CST

    Oh, and AsimovLives has no spine

    by Teddy Artery

    by coming here and bitching out Bob Orci for his creativity, when I cannot remember ever seeing a movie credit for "AsimovLives". What did I miss?

  • June 16, 2011, 10:19 p.m. CST

    BobOrci, Copernicus, et al...

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm A black hole was recently observed having shredded a Sun-sized star and producing an incredibly powerful gamma ray burst. Interesting stuff!

  • June 16, 2011, 10:20 p.m. CST

    bob orci "I dont agree the film was racist"

    by gerhard_futkanister

    what? you said yourself you "fought" over the racist characters. and yet after you lost the fight not to have nigger caricatures in the film you dont think it is racist? what then? skids and mudflaps are adorable, whacky characters to you? and not hateful blows to racial equality? "we don't read much"... jesus man...

  • June 16, 2011, 10:28 p.m. CST

    Re : teddy artery

    by Real Deal

    " by coming here and bitching out Bob Orci for his creativity, when I cannot remember ever seeing a movie credit for "AsimovLives". What did I miss? " Nothing and you won't find a movie credit for him either. It seems my post about AL losing it is missing. After all the other insults I wonder why? Well I just was wondering what if anything he hopes to accomplish by continuing his crusade against JJ. My guess is stroking his ego. Another film will come out and it will do well possibly better than the first so why the crusade? To get noticed? To seem cleaver? Nah? It couldn't be those things. I look forward to the next film as do many and it probably eats him up that there's nothing he can do about that.

  • I would much rather have read about that.

  • June 16, 2011, 10:41 p.m. CST


    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    I have a film treatment that you might be very interested in! Let me know!

  • June 16, 2011, 11:02 p.m. CST

    Oh, and Mr. Orci - as a big TOS Trek fan...

    by Joaquin_Ondamoon

    ...I had not intention of ever watching the reboot, but finally broke down and gave it a shot. The worst I can say is it's not horrible. As long as you don't fuck with original canon, I really don't give a damn what you guys do. I have small issues with the script, and some of the art direction (the engine room looks like ass - even before I knew about the whole brewery thing, the ship itself - ugh! Outside horrible nacelle design, inside too 'new' and 'lens-flarey'). What ever. The first 10 minutes were great, the kobiyashi maru sequence was lame and smug, and the humor was a bit juvenile at times (swollen hands?!). But I did like the characterization of Spock (having Quinto didn't hurt), Pine did a fair job, with bits of Shat popping thru, and Karl was spot on as McCoy. Don't just recycle Khan for the next movie - come up with something grounded in canon with a slight 'alternate' twist - but please - no 'Mirror, Mirror' universe! Although it's my favorite TOS episode, its been done to death. Give us an 'Empire Strikes Back', y'know, without acutally making EBS with Trek characters. Just wanted to show that while some of us may not care for some of your stuff, we're mature enough to not attack you on a personal level. Good luck on the next film. Make us a good one.

  • June 16, 2011, 11:50 p.m. CST


    by CreepyThinMan

    Obfuscating by trying to change the subject and attempting to pit Asi and myself against each other is exactly the type of thing I’d expect a waffling cocksucker like you to try. Asi and I are, more or less, on the same page about Shit Trek 90210. We both agree that you write watered down fucking trash for simpletons. He says that you treat American audiences stupid, as if you were capable of writing anything that had any sort of depth, where as my point of view is that you’re incapable of writing anything but mindless fucking garbage that makes money because it’s done at such a pace and with soo much action that the complete lack of quality, intelligence or basic logic doesn’t register in the brains of your average cinema going drone who laps it up like a thirsty dog drinking from a toilet bowl. In comparison, two of my most favorite Sci-fi movies of the last decade, The Fountain and A Scanner Darkly, made fuck all at the box office because your average theater dwelling pleb couldn’t appreciate intelligence Science Fiction with the type sub-textual and thematic resonance that those two movies had. Dawson’s Trek 90210 wasn’t about ANYTHING! It said NOTHING! You just took the same tired old tropes from a hundred other movies and mashed them together, offering audiences only the familiar which is the reason why it was a hit as today’s cinema going public is soo conditioned to accept the same archetypical stories that get told over and over again because studio executives aren’t interested in creating new, innovative and challenging movies, even popcorn flicks, as what they really want is the formula to Coca-cola, that is, a product that they can mass manufacture to be consumed by the general public. That is why you have a job as a screenwriter Boborci, because all you can deliver is more of the same tired old shit wrapped up in a neat little bow while Directors, Producers and Studio Executives know that you aren’t going to bother them with any crazy new idea’s that might scare away the type of fucking morons that made Dawson’s Trek and Bayformers into hits. If you, Kurtzman and Abrams actually had a fucking brain cell between the three of you then you could have done for Star Trek what Christopher Nolan did for Batman and created a Sci-fi movie filled with rich theme’s and thematic subtext that would have resonated with audiences and placed itself within the collective unconscious of pop culture as The Dark Knight did. But that isn’t an option for any of you as you all deal in disposable shit that will be forgotten in the fullness of time.

  • June 17, 2011, 12:54 a.m. CST

    catch - just trying to have fun in a BORING conversation.

    by Boborci

    Have no need to clarify further.

  • June 17, 2011, 1:06 a.m. CST

    No. Have spoken more about it than you have a right to know.

    by Boborci

    And been honest, to boot. You are a boring troll.

  • But, I'm guessing a smart guy like you already knew this. I'm also guessing the Transformers films were never meant to be any good, just profitable and marketable enough to sell a ton of toys. And here is an idea, how about you refrain from making the protagonist a reluctant hero. It's becoming trite and cliched, I understand you want people to 'connect.' But it's high time the protagonist is the one trying to convince others to fight, rather than being a whinny punk who just wants to live their life. I mean, most teens would die to go off on some crazy adventure. Regardless, the Star Trek films were really bad, and they were SO forgettable that there is no way I can even remember enough of it, to tell give you any constructive criticism.

  • For the next Transformers, how about you increase the cast. Give a wide number of the importance. So you can kill some of them off. The best way to get an audience into these films is rachet the tension and drama. More death!

  • June 17, 2011, 1:58 a.m. CST

    real deal

    by AsimovLives

    More and more i have difficulty believing you are the 58 years old you claim tobe. At your age and you enjoyed Abrams Trek? Please! And just because the future will not be the rosy thing you have hopes for doesn't have to make you bitter about me, dude. Relax.

  • Filmmakers like you believe and always take for granted that audiences are made of idiots. That's the very foundation of your attitude toward your work. The minimum common denominator thing for you is assuming audiences are a bunch of idiots. Filmmakers like you disgust me. And stop trying to pin catchtheman agaisnt me, childish boy. It only makes you look mean spirited.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:06 a.m. CST

    teddy artery

    by AsimovLives

    At elast i have spine enough to say about him when he's in here the same i do whenhe's not around. Unlike many who totally change their tune whenever Bobby shows up and go all "i'mso glad you are here, i love your movie so much, it has a minor defects but whatever". How often i have people who had said nothing but poison about Orci but as soonhe's around they go all oohh and ahhh and thankful that he graced us with his presense. And i'm the spiness one? At least i don't change my tune nor the tone of what i think of him and his movies. How is that spiness? Let me ask you something? Can you build a car? If not, how can you criticise a car if it's good or not? You know, you don't need to know how to build a car to know if it's good or not. Same thing with movies. And that "if you can't make a movie don't criticise" fallacy bullshit has been called out years ago. Give up on that, it means nothing at all.

  • It's one of the reasons we can detect them, besides their gravitational effect on nearby objects.

  • Aaaahhhh!!! You think that is going to happen? So that's the reason you guys are all so nice and cuddly with Orci here? You think he's your meal ticket to movieland? He's not evne the movie ticket to the AICN people, whom he has a sort of direct contact, how much you think he is for you guys in here, the talkbackers? None of your syncophancy will help you. Orci is not in here to get movie treatments from anonymous people only known by their online nicknames, he's in here to get his ego stroke, to feel like a rock star. It's so obvious how can anybody miss out on that? You think he's your pal? Think again.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:13 a.m. CST


    by CreepyThinMan

    You've ran out of arguments to defend the blatant racism that you took part in and profited from and now feign bored indifference like a child who can’t win at a game and acts as though it never meant anything in the first place. But I know what is in your heart and despite your wealth and status my words will fester in your subconscious and there will be those little moments where you sit and ponder the life that you have fashioned for yourself and consider if the sum total of your existence amounts to anything beyond numbers on a balance sheet, the women who are only with you because of the money and fame that you have or the phonies that you think are your friends. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

  • June 17, 2011, 2:23 a.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    I really didn't liekd the chacterization of Spock in Abrams TRek. The actor chosen was ideal. But what was writen for him was woeful. They turned Spock into a mommy boy with emotional complexes left, right and center. And emotional wreck. There's humans with far more stoicism then as Spock is presented in the movie, and he's supposed to be the fella who graduated from Vulcan Academy ahead of anybody else in the whole history of the planet. Yeah, right! And his decision to cast away Kirk to a ice planet fileld with murderous monsters jsut because Kirk was acting liek his usual bratboy manners? The ship doesn't have a brig? I don't know, but quite a few episodes evne of TOS it was shown that the Enterprise does have a brig. Was it a later addition? Nonsense! And the stupid way that Kirk gets control from the ship is just... it's stupid, that's what it is. Instead of theiy having Kirk finally act like a man and manange to convince spock that his course of action would be ideal, no, he goes on an emotional manipulation rampage on him, finalizing with a stupid beatdown scene. Tehy had a chance to show that Kirk was now a more mature man. That he was the man to command because he had the right mind and the right plan for the job. But no, Kirk gets it because he makes Spock furious. This shit is suppsoed to be Star Trek, not some juvenille TV show about stupid high-school teen boys. That scene is a disgrace! Made worst be having Spock falling for such cheap trickery so easily. The sourse of Abrams Trek "sucess" is that they dumbed down everybody, every known character, turning them from the intelligent and competent people we knew into stupid teens. And it's not the only problem. Many people found the inicial 10 minutes amazing. I find them banal at best. They had to put a Kirk beign born in that very scen to milk a few emotions? They couldn't do that without it, without the cheap melodrama? The onyl way you could feel for Kirk's dad death demise was to ahve him cry over his newborn son? It's such cheap storytelling. Cheap emotional manipulation. It's the kind of crap any hack can do, and which any hack does. Fast easy emotionalism, just add water. The movie is filled to the grills with nonsense like that. It's a disgrace. The only fun to be had with it is to laught as how wrong it is from start to end.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:28 a.m. CST

    Asimov nobody thinks Orci is their mealtick, that's ridiculous

    by Nabster

    It's just really cool of a creator to come and interact with us, what's wrong with this? Plus, he's a great sport, you have to give him credit. People have been more than willing to give him grief for Transformers. Star Trek on the other hand WAS a fun film. Script felt rushed and a little unfinished, but the film was expertly cast, and had energy and excitement. It was a success. And for some reason you want to compare tdk to this film, but bb is a more apt comparison. And bb was decent but nothing special, Star Trek was far more enjoyable. And fringe has been pretty cool. At least it appears to be driving to an actual destination, unlike Lost or Alias. If you want to bash him go ahead, but say your piece and stop repeating yourself. I know your not a troll, so stop acting like one.

  • June 17, 2011, 3:19 a.m. CST


    by Cedric

    Asi is still here herping the derp about Trek? What a surprise.

  • June 17, 2011, 4:50 a.m. CST

    There is a movie in this TB....

    by conspiracy

    This is definitely an early favorite for "TB OF THE YEAR". While not as far reaching in scope or sheer numbers of posts as say one of the old Transformers TB's, or anything with a mention of George Lucas; this TB really has it all..., epic levels of passion hate and almost poetic vitriolic exchanges; detente amongst old adversaries; crass and unabashed online star-fucking of quasi-celebrities, characters on the verge of breakdown, random posts of pure insanity... Reading this made my workday tolerable...I salute you all.

  • And even if they managed to accomplish that they'd still need Lindelof to come in to do a dialogue polish (WOOF WOOF WOOF) while Abrams aims a strobe light at the camera, causing anyone who watched it to have an epeleptic fit and making them look like Michael J. Fox beating his fucking meat!

  • June 17, 2011, 6:55 a.m. CST

    nabster, no really?

    by AsimovLives

    ccchhhrrriiisssm is a talkbacker who thinks otherwise. And of course that the AICN crew does think that Orci will open the gates for them to go to Holywood. It's not the first time that AICN has rode on that hope. Bay and Bruckheimer have been so too in the past. "It's just really cool of a creator to come and interact with us, what's wrong with this? Plus, he's a great sport, you have to give him credit." Giving him credit to come here so he can get adulation? I'm not too sure if i would give him credit for that. "Star Trek on the other hand WAS a fun film." Speak for yourself, compadre. "And bb was decent but nothing special, Star Trek was far more enjoyable." My mind just boggled. "And fringe has been pretty cool." The main actress is pretty and cool. I give it that. The rest, not so much.

  • June 17, 2011, 6:55 a.m. CST

    cedric_dickery, the fun never stops.

    by AsimovLives

  • June 17, 2011, 6:56 a.m. CST

    conspiracy, glad to be of help.

    by AsimovLives

  • This is legit. It is a constructive critcism, not just an exercise in bashing. I understand that the reason why Orci and pals used the alternative/paralel/undefined universe thing for their movie was so that they could create their own sandbox for the movie. Instead of feeling bogged down and restricted with what was already established in the Star Trek universe, they just used an excuse and an oportunity to turn Star Trek the way that made their work easy. And this is something i have to disagree. Nobody is asking them to be strictly and compeltly faithful to everything that is already established in the Star Trek universe. It's impossible, due to the seer volume of stuff already created. And specialty considering that there's not even complete agreement about what's cannon and not. It would be humanly impossible, i believe. However, it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask that the makers of Abrasm Trek would retain and maintain faithful to what is commonly called the spirit of Star Trek and to the basic premises and the basic aspects of the universe that was created for it. Maybe Orci and pals though it would be a restriction to them. Nbut how often people of great creative capacity have taken suich restrictions as a challenge and be able to make a new and interesting story which also matches what has been established in a give universe, the sandbox they were given to play with? I think Orci and pals took the easy way out. They might complain they only had litle time to do it, but consider that Nicholas Meyer wrote, alone, the script for ST2 in two weeks. I can't help but be very critical of the attitude that Orci and pals took to the movie. Instead of them puttigntheir creativity at the service of Star Trek, they made Star Trek serve them. I can't agree with this. One of my major criticisms of Abrams Trek has to do withthe fact that it seems to me they just failed to realise the potential of their own creation. They failed to realise the potential of their own premise. They took the less ambitious route, they took the more mundane and easy way out. I'll explain. Let's retain the basic elements from Orci and pal's own premise: 1- Nero is a romulan from the future who time-traveled to the past, his time traveling being a consequenc eof the very phenomenum that caused his home planet destruction. 2- Romulus sun explodes and Romulus gets destroyed with it, despiste the best efforts from future Spock. 3- Nero's arrival at the past causes the ACCIDENTAL destruction of Kirk's dad ship and causes his death. From this alone i can see so many possibilities that do not involve Nero going on a senseless revenge rampage. Let's change Nero's actions and attitudes. Let's not base him on a deranged Khan from ST2 but let's making more like an honourable romulan like the romulan captain in BALANCE OF TERROR. Nero would come to the past knowing the fate of his home planet and he would try to prevent that by warning everybody what's to come. But nobody would believe him. He would suffer a Cassandra complex, in which, like the Cassandra from the Trojan War Myth of old, though he knew and predicted a disaster to come, nobody would believe him, no matter how hard he tried and the evidences he produced. And the fact he could produce evidence wouldn't help his case because he was using science from the future, which the people of the past could not understand, even such genious as the vulcan Spock. Not even present day Spock could understand his own science from the future. And it's not hard to understand why that would be so. Imagine, as an example, if soembody from today would present advanced Quantum Mechaniscs and String Theory to 1905, when the General Theory of Relativity was first published. Relativity was itself the radical scientific proposition of the the time, it was the FRINGE science of the time, if you pardon the pun. It was yet 6 years until first real physical evidence that relativity was correct. So, no mater how correct the mathematis of the quantum mechaniscs you would present with, simply nobody then would accept that because not only it was way advanced for the paradiogms of the time, also most of themathematics about quantum mechanics didn't existed back then, and much of it is the result of computer assistent calculations. At a time where the re was no computers to assist an calculatiosn was done, LITERRALY, by hand, there would be no way to even the sciritists of the time to verify it, even if they bothered to give any credence to it. Similiary would be the dilemma of Nero in the past. He kenw what would happen, he knew how it would happen, but he coudln't prove it because his evidence was from future science that nobody can understand. And after 25 years of Nero trying to convince everybody, be they romulans, vulcans or the federation, he would reach complete despair. Adn then he would take extreme measures so people could listen to him and do what he thinks it's necessary to do. Nero would has a character arc from a very well intentioned person into an extreme extremist who still, at core, is well intentioned but his actions no longer reflects the good man he once was. And this is just the villain. to make Nero into a really tragic villain, in which his tragedy would be informed within the Story itself, and not just by the dramatic notes from the movie's score. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of what could had been done USING the VERY SAME PREMISE that Orci and pals used for their Abrams Trek movie. So much more could had been done with it. Abrams Trek could had been so much better. Instead, it's a Michael Bay movie. And i find it disheartning that so many are simply contented with that. To be so satisfied with rusted tin when were this close to get real gold.

  • June 17, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST

    not bad, asi

    by spidercoz

    Not bad at all. I think that would focus too heavily on him as a character though, which would be alright if he was meant to return in a future movie. Here's an Idea for the next one (Bob, if you're still around, pay attention). One of the best episodes of TOS is Balance of Terror, someone mentioned that above. It's basically just a condensed submarine war movie. I'd like to see something like that. For adversaries I think you could do far worse than to have the Klingons in there, specifically the "warriors three" Kor, Kang, and Koloth. The Enterprise vs 3 Klingon warships "in a deadly game of cat and mouse." Sure it's been done, but so has everything else, and I think there's a lot of potential for both action and drama. Kirk's first real command, life-or-death scenario, the stuff that makes a captain a legend. Starts out as responding to a distress call, like many eps have in the past. Turns into a real Kobayashi Maru situation. In the end it's pretty much a stalemate, Kirk outwits the Klingons but doesn't defeat them. Oh and DON'T KILL OFF THE VILLAIN. Comic book movies usually commit this error, it's always a waste. Kirk needs nemeses. Villains who'll continue to challenge him over and over, pushing him to his breaking point, until only one of them is left standing. Like Wrath of Khan (which, incidentally, also becomes a sub war movie towards the end). See, it is possible to make a movie like and as good as WoK, without it BEING WoK, or worse, just a lame knock-off. And another thing, Make the Enterprise FEEL more like a sub. The ship was way too open in the last movie, the interiors seemed bigger than the exterior. Also, there's only 400-some crew on the ship, it shouldn't look so crowded. Cramped, yes, not crowded. This is just off the top of my head because I started thinking about Balance of Terror and how awesome it is.

  • June 17, 2011, 11:21 a.m. CST

    sorry, asi

    by spidercoz

    that was you who mentioned Balance of Terror I've been reading this thread way too long.....

  • June 17, 2011, 11:28 a.m. CST

    The next movie...

    by KnowItAllFromCali

    Should not be like Balance of Terror, which is like the ending of WOK. Star Trek is about big ideas and an optimistic future. BoT is too close to what we just got. I agree with "don't kill off the villain" ONLY if the villain is interesting. I'm glad Nero is gone because he was booooring compared to Khan. AsimovLives - you should really check your own writing. It's so full of typos, it's hard to take your critique seriously.

  • June 17, 2011, noon CST

    Whenever they've tried to do "big ideas" in the movies

    by spidercoz

    we get The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier. Neither of which worked out like they hoped. The best of the movies usually have a very simple premise, with maybe a big concept thrown in for flavor, like WoK. I think the big ideas are better left to the show, which is something I was saying yesterday, it gives them more room to move and grow and follow-through. And I reiterate my call to have Trek back on tv where it belongs by the end of the decade. So, you don't like my idea, ok. Let's hear what you have.

  • June 17, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST


    by KnowItAllFromCali

    It's not that I don't like the idea. I would have LOVED it if this last movie had been like that. That is how Kirk should have gotten the attention of his superior officers (and Spock) - with his brilliant tactical maneuvering. Personally, I think we needed two or three movies just to get Kirk in the Captain's chair. It would have been a much more satisfying progression and an opportunity to really delve into the characters. Yes, I realize that's why Trek works better in a television format. I don't think that necessarily means it couldn't be done in the movies, though. I also think the movies do one thing very well and that is bring a sense of scale to the whole thing. I also don't believe that taking more time to get into the characters means sacrificing action or an epic feel. Balance of Terror was a great TOS episode and WOK is easily my favorite Trek movie. But WOK also brought more to the table. You are right that "big ideas" are a lot more risky and that's why studios tend to stick with formulas. There aren't enough Chris Nolans out there, unfortunately. Then again, perhaps that's a good thing, because we can appreciate them all the more. :)

  • June 17, 2011, 12:48 p.m. CST

    Oh, and btw...

    by KnowItAllFromCali

    The Motion Picture was bad because of the handling of the material, not the story itself. It was bad because of the lack of emotion, lack of humor, and the overabundance of plodding camera shots showing us just how much work the production staff put into those models.

  • June 17, 2011, 1:22 p.m. CST

    @ asimovlives...

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    This is truly DIFFERENT from any explosive event we have seen before," said lead author Joshua Bloom of the University of California at Berkeley.

  • June 17, 2011, 1:26 p.m. CST

    @ asimovlives"

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    This is truly different from any explosive event we have seen before," said lead author Joshua Bloom of the University of California at Berkeley.

  • June 17, 2011, 1:31 p.m. CST

    I agree with you there

    by spidercoz

    2 movies at a minimum to pull the crew together from their various origins could have been exceptional, but they instead went for fast and mediocre. But that's what we have to expect from the suits with the checkbook. And I don't really think TMP is bad, or even TFF (took a long time to come to grips with that one). Just poorly executed, as you alluded. In fact, story-wise, I think both of those are closer to the spirit of TOS than any of the others. Just didn't translate well. But enough looking back, we're here to look forward...

  • June 17, 2011, 2 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    I'm glad you are also a fan of BALLANCE OF TERROR. I consider that not just one of the best moments of ST, but also one of the best moments of american TV. I like to think that WRATH OF KHAN is somewhat indebt to it. You think that in my proposed scenario, there would be too much a focus on the villain. Let us remmeber the lesson that the great Alfred Hitchcock teached us: a movie as as good as the villain. While the hero is the one that carries with us throughout the story, it's the villain who makes or breaks a story. A movie always benefits witha strong villain. And one that is tragic can also pull a grat emotional punch and elevate a story to something more then just a kill the villain of the week type story. The movie wouldn't necessary be bogged down by a stronger focus on the villain. The movie didn't need to have the villain the the constant focus of the story. All it needed was to make every scene with the villain counts. Every line he said had to count. The villain could not have superfelous scenes or superfelous lines. Everything about him would had to count. Bascially, there would be no need to spend lots of screen time with the villain if every scene about him was of quality and emotionally powerful. And it can be done. Again, remember what Hitchcock did in STRANGERS IN A TRAIN, or THE MATRIX with Agent Smith or Empire Strikes Back with Darth Vader or Wrath Of Khan with Khan. In all of those movies the villain takes so much less screentime then the heroes and yet they are so memorable.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    I'm portuguese, thus english is my second language. How fare you with the portuguese language, my friend?

  • I beg to differ about THE MOTION PICTURE. That's a movie i wouldn't change a thing, slow pacing included. As for FINAL FRONTEER, the good i take form that movie is the comradery of Kirk, bones and Spock. It's the only movie of the entire TOS ST run that exclusively focus on the Holy Trinity. And every time the movie is about them it's actually pretty good. And i love the book end scenes of the 3 while they are in their hicking trip. The last scene of them singing row row your boat is quite haunting. No small feat for a movie known to suck ass. Believe it or not, i actually like to see the good even in the bad. It's just that some movies completly defeat me in that.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:08 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    "There aren't enough Chris Nolans out there, unfortunately." Aint that the truth? "Then again, perhaps that's a good thing, because we can appreciate them all the more. :)" I don't think my enjoyment wouldn't be ruined if there was less scarcity, if you know what i mean. A few more wouldn't hurt or dillute my enjoyment.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:14 p.m. CST


    by KnowItAllFromCali

    I don't see what that has to do with typos. Clearly, you know English well enough to avoid them and considering how harsh you can be, I figured it was fair to say. However, I am glad that you chose to write something a bit more constructive.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST

    True, asi, but

    by spidercoz

    part of what made those villains so memorable were the actors who portrayed them. James Earl Jones, Ricardo Montalban, Hugo Weaving, all outstanding classical actors with immense screen presence (especially JEJ, his presence is so massive he doesn't even need to be on screen). Imagine the Matrix with, say, Nic Cage as Agent Smith. Or Darth Vader as voiced by Shecky Green (ok, that's really facetious but you get the idea). The writing can only go so far, the performance is what drives it home, or leaves it for dead on the side of the road.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Re : asimovlives

    by Real Deal

    Funny I was going to say you don't sound more than 25 or so by the juvenile way you post to other people here. You just don't have an open mind or mature demeanor. Also your " Just because I say so " reasoning is lame. I'm not bitter about you but I do shake my head from time to time.

  • The movie was made in a very classic style. And little wonder, since it was made by Robert Wise himself, a man who made movies in a very classic style, specially when they were epic. You migth actually apreciate THE MOTION PICTURE more if you know a movie he made before, THE SAND PEBBLES. Wise was an advocate of intelligent storytelling, and he abhorred melodrama. He favoured restrained performances from his actors. And he loved to have images and music tell a story as much as actors acting and saying lines. With that understasnding, i think it's possible to enjoy his Star Trek movie more. The last thing one should accuse that movie is of being badly made. If anything, it might had been too well made.

  • June 17, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST

    knowitallfromcali, i aim to please

    by AsimovLives

  • June 17, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    real deal

    by AsimovLives

    I have an open mind, but i'm one of a scientist type open mind, if you will, as in, that i don't accept it all. I'm skeptical by nature and proud of it. I don't take things on faith. I abhorre faith. And i understand the difference between being open minded and gullible. And i abhorre the later.

  • June 17, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST


    by AsimovLives

    "part of what made those villains so memorable were the actors who portrayed them" Isn't that the truth? But a brillant script certainly helped a lot. And very good directing as well. The problem with Nero in Abrams Tek was not the casting. Eric Bana is quite a very good actor, and a natural screen charismatic presence. And all of that was absent in his portait of Nero. The script sure didn't do him any favours, as it is. I wonder how much more memorable Eric Bana as Nero could had been if Orci and his pals would had actually made an effort to really explored the implications of their own premise and had gone to town with it. So much could had been done with Nero. The potential was there. What a waste.

  • June 18, 2011, 9:37 a.m. CST

    Re : asimovlives

    by Real Deal

    I take the scientific approach also. However many of your arguments seem to be based on personal opinion and not fact ( like when you said space travel is getting more expensive when the opposite has been the case more and more for many years now ). And then you try to cliam that' the way I'm looking at it ( faith ) which isn't true at all. Yes I'm an optimist and I think it's ok to be one. But that's ok. You can have your opinion I just don't agree and if you want I have facts on my side.