Cool News
Michael Mann's next film is sealed...THE GATES OF FIRE
Hey folks, Harry here. Right before Christmas, it was announced that Michael Mann was in negotiations on a project called "GATES OF FIRE", well this past Friday (as in a couple of days back) he signed on the dotted line and crossed... well ok, he doesn't have any T's to cross, but he completed them last two N's. What is THE GATES OF FIRE? Well, it seems to be a script by David Self based upon Steve Pressfield's pretty fricking amazing book on the battle of Thermopylae back in 450 B.C. Well, I haven't seen the script yet, but I can tell you that based on the work Self did on 13 DAYS... well, if he kept the same eye for humanizing history... not only will this be a huge action epic... but it will have a human story in the midst. Expect a cast filled with young guys like Damon, Affleck, Phillipe, Depp, etc... Those aren't names in it yet... just the age range of alot of the cast members according to the agent I talked to. Well... till later, I'm out...
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I don't care if he directs a Pillsbury commercial, I am there!
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I'm not familiar with this story or time period...could someone give us a description of that this story is? I'll agree with Harry that if Mann can do Last of the Mohicans justice he can take on anything in the realm of action/adventure. Hell, let the man make a three hour version of The Illiad or The Odyssey! When was the last time this was tackled? I really enjoyed The Insider, and I know it was supposed to be claustrophobic, but after Heat pumped my 'nads to the bursting point I was a little let down. Glad the man can make a straight drama so intense, but this news that he's going back into genre bring a smile to my face, as well as the aformentioned testicles. Makes me want to go watch Manhunter (infinitely superior to Silence of the Lambs, tho very 80's) and Thief, one of the most underrated crime films, and can you really ask for more than James Caan and Willie Nelson?
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give us some more info
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The movie's already a hit in my book. BTW, whatever happened to 13 DAYS. Last we heard, Harry was raging against Roger Donaldson being assigned to direct, while Michael DeLuca took to the talkback to defend his decision. Is this yet another promising project mired in development hell?
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The story of Thermopylae is the origional Alamo. The emperor of Persia, set upon conquering the world, turned his eyes to the barbaric west, where Greek settlers in Asia Minor were being an annoyance. In order to cut off their support from Greece, he decided to invade and conquer the homeland of Homer. With an army so large that it supposedly dried up rivers where they camped, they marched along the coast down towards Greece. A force of only 300 Trojans stopped them in a mountain pass called Thermopylae and held a force numbering over 100,000 at bay for just over a week. In the end, however, a traitorous Greek told the Persians about a secret pass through the mountains that allowed the Persians to attack the Spartans from behind, and the entire Greek force was slain. Shortly afterward, the Persian fleet was crushed by the Athenian navy at Salamis. Lacking the logistical support needed to carry on their invasion, the Persians were forced to retreat overland back to Asia.
If the Persians had succeeded in their invasion, it would have changed the entire history of the world. Many of the historical events and art treasures that Greece gave the world might never have happened. Athenian democracy would have been wiped away. The entire history of the Western world would have been changed irrevocably. Now, the importance of Thermopylae is argued by historians, but the Greeks used the name as a rallying cry, just as Texans used the Alamo during the revolution. And, on top of all of that, it's an incredible story of courage in the face of impossible odds and certain death. If you get a chance, read the book. It's a great read.
Brian Murphy -
I had heard of this, but your description as cool. Michael Mann directing a war epic in ancient times, Ridley Scott doing Gladiator, Crusade might be moving forward, Lord of the Rings going nicely - damn, it seems a lot of directors are getting medieval on our ass.
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"Gates of Fire" concerns the battle of Thermopylae, where 300 Spartans battle 100,000 Persians to keep them from taking over Greece. This story has already been made into a movie once, "The 300 Spartans" (1962, starring Richard Egan and Diane Baker). That movie focused on Leonidas, king of the Spartans, and he definitely plays a large role in "Gates of Fire". However, the book plays from the perspective of a slave/squire-type who ends up being the lone survivor of the big battle. Over the course of the book he relates his story to his captors, the Persians. The book has some excellent pre-battle scenes concerning the philosophy of the Spartans, training regimens, etc. Michael Mann should rock our world with this one! Trust The Atom!
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This is a little know fact, but when the Giant was young, his friends used to call him that. I guess he got the name from his track and Field days. It seems that when he would start a race, his rocket feet would create this large fire wall which he would seem to shoot out of. His coach said, "It is like he came out of a Gate of Fire" Well the name suck. Latter on, when he was dating, his nick name changed from Gates of Fire to Rocket Dick. Hey, my tooth fell out again!!!!
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I was looking forward to "Gladiator," now this? Damn, this has some SERIOUS potential.
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So really... who *doesn't* love historical action movies? I mean, Braveheart was great, LotM was pretty darn cool, the battle bits from Messenger were keen, and Gladiator should be right up there with the others. Still... I don't really think we should have any big actors attached to this. If Damon or the others are in it... I will not be able to suspend my disbelief.
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First we get epic Roman GLADIATOR combat, now we get an epic Greek war. This should kick ass. I don't know why, but I keep getting the feeling that Mann knows how to direct massive battle scenes. We'll see. On a side note, did anyone know that "gladiator" came from "gladius", which meant both "sword" and "erect penis"? The Gladiators would take sexual names as their trademark. Those "bigus dickus" posters were right.
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Geat flick starring Richard Egan, Trax Colton and a host of other actors. Great battle sequences too! This battle changed the course of history and bought time for the Roman army to regroup, come back and destroy the advacing Persians. If not for King Leoniadias and his 300 Spartans, fighting to the death, we would be using the Persian numerical/alphabetical system instead of the Roman!
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Oh man, am I excited for this one...Michael Mann has never made a bad flick, and his last few (Heat, Mohicans, Insider) have been truly awesome. Now he's taking on a Greek epic? Makes me want to go out right now and snatch up the book...this movies going to ROCK! I wonder if Pacino will be in there, since he's appeared in Mann's last two flicks? Can you just imagine him as some hoarse-voiced, screaming mad Spartan captain? (Let's hope not...)
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This is the first news in weeks that's really gotten me pumped. Even more so than Gladiator, this sounds like the sword-and-sandal epic that I've been waiting for. Especially after Mohicans, Mann can do no wrong in my eyes. Geez, do I sound like a raving fanboy or what? Thanks for the news, Harry.
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This could be cool. I like Michael Mann, but I'm starting to think that he is one of these directors who think that a great movie *has* to be three hours. HEAT and THE INSIDER were both very good, but did they have to be so long? It would have been better if they had been tight and shorter. Flame me, see if I care. Miami Vice was cool...seriously. I've seen great three hour movies and great hour and a half movies. Bad three hours and bad hour and a halfs. And get the guy a fucking tripod. Yeah, yeah. It was the breakneck world of journalism, it was mirroring the TV atmosphere, it was herky-jerky and distracting. CAN YOU FEEL ME LOOKING IN YOU?
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Not only is they gettin' Medeval on our ass, but ancient as well! Heh. This sounds excellant. I love historical action flicks and between this, GLADIATOR and that Revolutionary War movie Mel Gibson is working on I will be having a high old time at the cineplex this next couple of years! And leave us not forget Lord of the Rings--not real history, of course, but it sure feels like it. Now--who's ass do I have to kick to get CRUSADE moving again?!
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What the hell wah that battle about? oh well a B.C. battlefield and gore will make up for my stupidity in my eyes.
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Jan 09, 2000 3:11:49 PM CST
Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by... that obedient to t
by brendan3
The Spartans at Thermopolye stood against the million man Persian army and held them... for a while, and Democracy, still a new word, survived. The battle is legendary. It is also one of those times and places in history that could have changed the world. This is a truly epic story of bravery, brutality and sacrafice.
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The book is one of the best I've read in years and Michael Mann is a one of my favorite living directors. The subject of the book may sound boring to some people because of the period, but it isn't. It's one of those rare books that are so fuckin' good you go back and read certain parts over. This book and Mann directing... Wow!
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When the emperor XERxes commanding his million man army at Thermopolye ordered the Spartan king Leonides and his 300 warriors to lay down their weapons, Leonides responded "Molon Labe!" which loosely translated means "come and get them!"
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In a nutshell, the battle of Thermopylae pitted a small band of Greeks (mostly Spartans) against the Persian army (numbering in the thousands with subjugated peoples serving). The cool thing is, the Spartans beat the crap out the Persians for most of the battle, and only lose when their enemies find a mountain pass to out-flank them.
The story of the novel focuses on a helot (slave) who fought with the Spartans named Xeones who survives the battle of Thermopylae to retell his story to Persian King, Xerxes. It tells how his house is burned down in his childhood and his eventual entry into the militaristic Spartan society.
I don't know if a movie could do justice to the book...it would have to be rather lengthy. Hopefully, Mann will do a good job with it. -
When the 300 Spartans were on the road to Thermopolye, they passed Thebian refugees going the other way to escape the advancing million man Persian army. One of the Thebians warned the Spartans that the Persian archers were so numerous that when they fired their volleys their arrows blocked out the sun. The Spartan knight Dienekes laughed and said "good, then we will battle in the shade!" .........just trying to give those who haven't read the book a sense of the spirit of what it's all about
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The only reason Mann is doing these movies like Heat and The Insider is to get to the high level of skill that is going to be needed to pull off the Miami Vice movie (Mann executive produced the show). I can see it now, Al Pacino and Sydney Poitier playing Don Johnson's and Philip Michael Thomas's charactor's of Detective Crocket and Detective Tubbs.
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Michael Mann doing the battle of Thermopylae? Can't wait. I'm a big fan of epics with sprawling battle sequences. Not only will the bloody battles transfer well to the screen, but the courage of the Spartans facing insurmountable odds is classic big-screen stuff. I also suggest taking a look at Frank Miller's "300", the recent comic adaptation of the story.
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Oh My God - is AICN the bearer of grand news lately, or what? Gates of Fire was a wonderful, moving novel. Well, I'll be buggered by a rabid pitbull if I ain't excited by this one. At first I wasn't sure about Mr Mann - sometimes his films suffer from 'Stone-ism' - a little too much overtly distracting style, like the shaky cam in Insider. But the guy can certainly pull out great performances, and maybe this book needs style. Lashings of it, in fact. Man, I kissed my computer screen over this. And the glass tastes all funny.
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I noticed Brendan3 posting here about this one. Hi to your good self. I am remembering some former postings on the subject of war and 'Three Kings' etc. here some time back (yet to open here in Oz - this week I think). Did we mention this book way back then? Damn well should have. A friend of mine told me he was terribly moved when he stood on 'that' spot during a recent o/s visit. Wonderful. I wonder if Mann can film there?
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I can
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Read this book a few months ago and found it to be the best depiction of ancient warfare I've encountered in any medium. Amusingly, one of the things that really brought life to the characters was all the swearing - this book is the Goodfellas of ancient Greece I tell ya. I was very taken with it though. The soldiers came across as very real people living an extraordinary life in an extraordinary time. Mann has dealt with themes of loyalty, brotherhood, and duty to excellent effect in Heat, Thief (you must see it), and Last of the Mohicans, so this seems right up his alley. He's also a stickler for research and detail, so expect to see an ancient world that you will damn well *believe* in. ***** By the way, Frank Miller's comic, 300, which covers the same story in a more mythic manner, is indeed one of his best works in years. Sin City is getting boring as hell, and 300 was just the change of pace he needed. As good as it was, though, and as beautiful as Lynn Varley's colors were on his art, the overall telling is nowhere near as strong as Pressfield's Gates of Fire. I bought that book on a whim in a Walgreens of all places, and it fucking blew me away. Maybe I should buy all my books there...
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Jan 09, 2000 8:14:54 PM CST
Everyone talks aboot 300 fruits with spears, but nobody remember
by otaku73
being a cultural heathen, I haven't read "gates of fire." I have read a bit on the subject, though, and here's a few things i hope mann adds;
1. Spartan Life: I better not see anyone crowned with laurels or something anachronistic like that. in the early years, sparta was pretty much rural athens. Then, a one eyed beatnik names lykurgos came along and goofed everything up. First of all, spartan boys lived hard lives, the hard part being sanctioned by the government. Besides having to live in the wild for a few years with just a blanket and a knife, a kind of "big brother" program went on, with older spartan men choosing a lad at a tender age and "guiding" (read: humping) him into being a strong warrior eventually. Women were given considerable rights, and sports were all-important. And we can't forget that all of them were trained hairdressers. Look it up.
2. The general at Thermopylae actually had many more under his command when he found out about the persian invasion. He sent all but 300 of them home. Nice guy, huh? a real humanitarian. But...the history books don't tell you that he had all of the spartans helots (slaves) stay, with 3 slaves to one spartan. That's 900 men, women, and children who fought and died for sparta and democracy and mom's baklava. Of course, anyone who's so stupid they won't revolt when they outnumber their captors 3 to 1....maybe they deserve it. I don't know.
3. The persian king (can't remember which one, probably a xerxes) waited a week to let the spartans get out of there, make their final peace, whatever. If yours truly's noble persian ancestors are vilified whilst a bunch of homosexual pedarist hairdressers who use cast iron for money and hump little boys are turned into The Magnificent Three (hundred) or the wild bunch, the anti-defamation league is going to be all over one mann's ass.
Much like those damn spartans. -
Well actually, I'm in the Minority. I hate Michael Mann and his style. Miami Vice was a piece of shit, as well as Manhunter. Whoever said that that particular film was BETTER than Silence of the Lambs is smoking some good #ass.
However the story sounds great, who doesn't love Ancient War Movies, so maybe MM will win me over. -
This is terrific news. I don't mind at all if movies take some creative license with history for the sake of drama. However, since some have asked, it is helpful I think to introduce history neophites to conflicting views where history is concerned. Briefly, if anyone is a bit incredulous of Persian armies in ancient times numbering 100,000 much less 1,000,000, you're not the first. Herodotus and Xenophon's accounts which form the basis of the traditional history of the Persian Wars have long been suspect and modern historians have long been deconstructing and interpreting. Anyhow, that doesn't detract from the importance or the drama of Thermopylae and I even recommend Pressfield (it's a damn good book and I hope this will be a damn good movie). However, if anyone is TRULY serious about learning what really happened, I suggest you read up, and after some preparation, tackle the appropriate chapters in Hans Delbr
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Neither can act.
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That's not a difference, Sherlock.
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How do you like THEM apples. In fact, my cock's a pretty decent writer too.
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I'm psyched, it's about time
they got someone good to tackle
this kinda subject matter.
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I'm the one who said Manhunter was better than Silence of the Lambs, and yeah, I prefer to smoke good grass over schwag. But you must have been drunk to think Silence of the Lambs was better. You need only look at the track records of the respective directors...Demme's career has been spotty at best, and his great films are far behind him. And the credit goes to the Talking Heads...I think Manhunter got into the psychological innerworkings of Red Dragon and was a much more reflective film. Silence, while an effective thriller, was still cheap thrills. It didn't really cut any deeper. Brian Cox was a more disturbing Lechter to me, but the real difference is that William Petersen's Graham character is a MILLION times better than Foster's Clarice Starling. And, as mentioned on another Talk Back, the Tooth Fairy is more interesting than Buffalo Bill. That's it...if you can't get past Mann's 1980's Miami Vice style of the film, you're not looking deep enough. And not winning any undeserved Oscars also helps.
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I have to agree with Lazarus. Manhunter WAS better than Silence of the Lambs, which although good, remains one of the most overrated films in recent memory. Too much overracting and a script that didn't make nearly as much logical sense as people seem to think it does. Manhunter had great photography, mood and intelligence.
Alex Cox's "Hannibal" was every bit as memorable as Hopkins. I'll take it (and Mann) any day over Silence. -
This is flat out the best news I've heard this year. This is a wonderful, true story that was slackly handled in the original due to a paucity of budget. I have read the novel, and whoever it was who suggested Pacino before is a genius - that is inspired casting. Honestly folks, this is a TERRIFIC story, and Mann is the Man to handle it. Oh, and for the record, Manhunter is NOT better than Silence, and Silence is NOT better than Manhunter; they were approached from completely different angles by directors with opposite (yet apposite) artistic visions.
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The Spartans didn't have slaves with them... they had squires...big difference. It was a matter of class and military rank. many Spartan squires eventually became full Spartan knights when they were older. Some didn't because they couldn't measure up to the standards or because they weren't born Spartan. Also Sparta was not a suburb of Athens as you put it. You also suggest that the Spartan "general" was already at Thermopolye and sent all but 300 back to Sparta when the Persians landed...wrong. First of all the Persians were already there and the pass at Thermopolye was an ideal spot to stall the Persians where they'd be bottled up. It was the Spartan King Leonides who ordered his men to fight at Thermopolye and sacrifice themselves to slow down the Persians so the rest of the Greek city states could have time to rally their armies. You also suggest that they were sent to die by an uncaring King/general. Guess what... King Leonides wouldn't send his knights to their deaths alone. He went with them and fought and died by their side. Also the 300 Spartan Knights were specifically chosen because they had all fathered sons and their family lines would go on. Spartan knights who hadn't fathered sons were not allowed to go. you also have your facts backward about the Persians under Xerxes. You have this hang up about the Greek slaves... but there were none. Your noble Persians, however, had conquered and enslaved millions. They had an emperor who believed he was a good. As far as slaves rebelling.. that is one of the attributed reasons for the final Greek victory over the Persians at the naval battle in the Bay of Salamis. The Greek ships, though outnumbered, beat the Persians because many of the Persian SLAVE oarsmen rebelled against their Persian masters. The Greek oarsmen were all free men fighting for their land. Next time you want to go on some political rant, check your facts.
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the fact that this is getting made, or that it turns out TalkBackers are pretty damn knowledgeable about ancient Greek history. I'm petty impressed, and will find and get this book. As for the Frank Miller version, I am personally shamed that I had not heard of this before, and will buy this as well.
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Anyone heard anything new about Mann's great unproduced William Gibson 'Count Zero' adaption titles the 'Zen Differential?'
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I was going to write about the battle, but it looks like that's been done enough. For those of you who havn't read the book, go now! I handed copies out to everyone I knew at x-mas, this is a story that everyone should know. I read alot of books, it's not very often that I read a book again right after I finish it, and a damn rare thing I do it a third time but Steven Pressfield brings you to your knees with this story. As soon as I finished this book I realized it would make a great movie if done along the lines of Saving Private Ryan, or Braveheart. So hopefully that's what we'll get, come on there's nothing stopping movie makers now! The bar for blood in movies has been raised time and again, and kids this movie will need an ocean of Kayro syrup and red food coloring!
Mammon -
Gates of Fire is a great book, but if you want to add a little more depth and history to your knowledge of the battle please read History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. I had to read this for my Great Books class in college and LOVED it! True it starts out really slow and the scads of Greek names got so confusing I had to start writing them down to keep them straight in my head, but once you get to the battle of Thermopyle the story moves like pure drama. Great stuff.
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I'll give you that the story of Manhunter is a little more interesting, but I still hated the movie. Maybe it was because of the miami vice style that i couldn't get past.
But you're right that Buffalo Bill was very boring. I thought the actual crime in Man was a lot better, with the whole family being killed in front of the father..still sends chills down my spine. Like how many times have we heard of someone harvesting body parts off of females...boring (that should be a big red flag for us all)
but if I remember correctly, the charchter of Hannibal was just horrible, if fact it looked like someone who was in for embezzelment or something. But we all have our own opinions.
and the amount of greek history on this tb is just amazing! Some of us did go to school. -
Long time lurker, first time poster. I loved 'Last of the Mohicans' beautiful scenes, and first rate performances. But I'm a HUGE fan of Pressfield's novel (he's got another one coming out in March covering the career of Alcibiades, should be quite good). There's a scene toward the last stand by the Spartans and their greek allies the Thespians (they were ordered home by Leonidas but elected to stay and die alongside the Spartans). The commanders are giving final instructions to the troops. Things are pretty grim, and the amount of slaughter that has occurred already is horrifying. The Thespian commander looks at the assembled troops, holds up his spear and grunts "Everyone just go out there and have fun." I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry. You can besure that particular scene will be captured. I can't WAIT to see this movie!!
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Mann's been making great films since THIEF back in 1981, and his LAST OF THE MOHICANS still ranks as something of a cinematic miracle in my book. Cooper's book was never so lively (unless you had the Wyeth illustrations, which helped in countering the dull prose.) If you want to question Mann's skill as a director, you need only watch the climactic chase up the side of that mountain. Movies get no more thrilling than that.
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That final chase on the mountain in LAST OF THE MOHICANS is beautifully shot and the scene where the younger sister jumps off the mountain in the light rain while Wes Studi holds out his hand to her is one of my favorite "modern cinema" moments
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She looks at him as if to say "look, you just took away the only reason I'm still alive. You can go to hell." And, then, Chingachgook comes charging to avenge his son's death. Damn, I love that movie.
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Both of you provided useful information, which I will not retread, but in the interests of historical accuracy (and in respect to the dead), a few corrections.
1) There were indeed 900 Spartans (almost entirely) at the pass. Two helots (slaves) to each warrior - the helots were an integral part of Spartan society, and it wasn't slavery as we knew it, but it was slavery. The helots were squires and shield bearers in this case
2) the Spartans were a structurally bi-sexual society. It is certain that all 300 warriors, and many of the helots, were practicing homosexuals - not that there's anything wrong with that. I bring up this point because it is rather unique from our modern point of view. I have many friends who love the idea of 300 homosexuals kicking the crap out of an army 100 to 300 times their size and winning one of history's great victories, it give rather a different perspective on the whole gays in the military thing. For this reason I believe that the handling of this part of the story is a huge political hot potato - one could argue that it has nothing to do with the underlying story, but I think they'd be wrong - if only because it is so challenging to the conventional modern bias.
On a personal level I find the entire construction of Spartan society somewhat distasteful, but it is fairly pointed out that it was that social structure that allowed the 300 (900) to stand in the face of impossibly overwhelming odds (and no you can't compare it to Bastonge in the battle of the bulge.) I just think it would be dishonest, disrespectful, just plain wrong, and hugely controversial to ignore this issue in the film.
3) yes, they had a hair-dressing fetish, odd, just odd.
4) I imagine the Persians will be quite heavily maligned here - it's a film and we need a villian. Otaku, I ask you to keep in mind that the winners write the history books, and while the Persian people have a spectacular culture with a long history, they haven't been winning much since Alexander the Great marched in over 2000 years ago. If making a movie about Xerxes invasion from the greek point of view violates political correctness, make your own movie, but don't accuse the film-makers of bias, there is none.
In the end though, Otaku has his facts straighter than Bredan - I suggest hitting some of the original sources, not a novel or comic books.
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Christ, some of you here are regular scholars...maybe I should stop reading history books and just concentrate on the AICN message boards! With every post I grow more and more excited about this film...maybe I'll pick up this book after all. Also, I second the opinions of all who have commented about the final sequence in Mohicans--it's a masterpiece of cinema. The music and visuals are astounding; the way they operate together is even more impressive. Notice how all of the anti-Mann people only seem to be talking about Miami Vice and Manhunter--those were like, 20 years ago! He's done far better work since then, and his work only gets more and more impressive. I think some of us here should start a Mann fan club or something...
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In reply to Bergeron. The hair dressing wasn't a fetish, it was thumbing your nose at the enemy. Classicly warriors, from pugilists to gladiators wore short hair cuts. Why you ask, ever had somebody grab a fistful of hair and pound your face in, it makes a great handle and if kept short is one less advantage for your foe. At least in some part the spartans were proving yet another point of supperiority by having the long cuts.
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BTW, speaking of Greeks vs. Persians--no one seems to be mentioning one of the most definitive battles of all time--the battle of Marathon. An Athenian army engaged a Persian fleet 25 miles from Athens...and knew they had to warn the city of a surprise attack, so they sent a guy (sorry, his name eludes me) to sprint all the way to Athens in the space of a few hours (hence the MARATHON). He beat the Persian fleet to Athens on foot, and gave word of their imminent attack--and then immediately died of exhaustion on the spot. Needless to say, the Athenians were able to ready their defences in time for the attack, and won the battle. If not for that one guy who ran to ward them, the Persians would in all probability have conquered the Greeks and the history of Western Civilization would have been radically different. Not a bad story for a movie, eh? Though the Thermopylae story sounds more dramatic with the odds and everything...It's been a long time since I studied this (in school) and my facts may not be straight--is anyone else out there familiar with it?
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When a spartan warrior was told that the persians had so many archers that when the fired the cloud of arrows blotted out the sun...his reply " Good then we'll battle in the shade!" Yes, it is a very dramatic story. The final 300 spartans gave their lives, but the helots were released by Leonidas. So, it was really about 3 to 4 thousand men that held the pass for 7 days.
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I am humbled, you are indeed right about the hair styling before battle, I was trying to be flip, as it was a rather unusual custom - though I should note they didn't just do it before battle, and I have seen Spartan pottery with images of what must be the first man with a beehive.
About movies, Marathon just doesn't have the same impact, however, the marathon run might - I'm thinking a Run Lola Run kind of format where various greek villagers lead our runner into misadventures on his way to deliver the message to Athens, at which point he drops dead.
One other thing, the king released all of the helots but the trusted squires (the extra 600) when he realized they would be surrounded. There is a fair amount of debate on this, but it would be most accurate IMO, if they were to depict 900 killed at the end of the battle - the Persians did make some significant mention of this, as it was the small number of greek corpses that help dispirit the army before the defeat at Salamis which sealed the deal. -
Yes, the Spartans were a weird lot, but there's no doubt this story has limitless possibilities for epic movie making. All the elements are there, few against many, just against tyrants...mass battle scenes I can't wait. As for Marathon, the only way I could see it being interesting is if it were done kind of like Naked Prey, but it's a different kind of story so I doubt it. Who knows, someone could do it right I'm sure. By the way whoever didn't like Seven Years in Tibet can stick his Xyphos where the sun don't shine!
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You couldn't sit through it? Did you make it to the first assault on the British soldiers about a quarter of the way through (at the most?) That was damned exciting, and as tightly staged and edited as anything else in the film. Well, if you can't even be troubled to watch Mann's work, I'm not going to bother with you.
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Brendan, you crazy cracker, I was on no particular political rant. I just thought it would be particularly amusing to see you kids freak out when a persian (well, distantly) guy popped up and demanded satisfaction! I could care less how the persians are depicted, I know they're going to be vilified, and damn it all if many aspects of their culture should be, if we go by current social mores. I suppose the point I was trying to get across was, I didn't want this to be a John Wayne WW2 movie with Spiro Kankakanerideseus playing the John Wayne part. I want to see a bunch of flawed, messed-up homosexual pedarists sucking it up (ha!), putting their hair up, and kicking Imperial ass. But, since I'm just insecure enough to want vindication, we'll go point by point, 'kay?
You seem a little confus-ed, Brendy. Knights and squires...that's not right! Wrong area, period, military style, everything. And Sparta, when it became a full city-state (rather than what it was, which was like Athens 90210) took every man it could get.
Were you the Brendan that was like John Rocker in the military? I thought you might appreciate the following, since I'm guessing you're in the reserves and haven't yet touched a gun. (been too busy keeping the race pure, right?)
At the age of 7, being a boy, you left home and lived in a dormitory with a bunch of other dirty, smelly little boys. (I thought that'd interest you too) You ate one meal a day, and bathed once a year. Of course, the water wasn't heated, and you bathed with everyone else. You had no possessions save your tunic, until you went down to the river with the other boys and pulled reeds out of the bank to make blankets with.
Depending on which district you were in, anywhere between the ages of 14 and 17 you had all possessions you had scrounged up over the years taken away, excepting, natch, your blanket and your knife, and tossed out into the woods. You had to live, without being caught by anyone from your village. After a year or two, you came back and watched everyone who was caught publicly whipped to death. Then an old spartan man started humping you, and didn't stop until he was killed in battle. And you know, mom never liked you much either. Come back with your shield or on it, you git.
And see, when the spartans actually got to Thermopylae, they saw the Persian army. Whatever they had heard secondhand really didn't prepare them for this, and the general (I don't know if Lyonades was actually there, but somehow I doubt it) sent everyone back, giving them the excuse that they were sent back to warn and prepare Sparta, (not, necessarily, the rest of the city-states. it would be a great loss of face for Spartans to ask Athenians, their oldest rival, for help, especially in military matters) save 300 Michael Jackson precursors (think about it), as well as 900 (and that's the quote I've heard, kids) helots. And I never said he was uncaring. I'm quite sure he deeply loved them all, considering the powerful bonds of brotherhood created by war, as well as mass Spartan humpings. All that bunk about the general choosing them based on some Saving Private Ryan type rule, I've never heard, and I've read quite a bit aboot this type of thing, (you know, useless info) and that never came up, sport. I have no hang up about any of these people... if it had come down to one Spartan and One Persian, and they killed each other, I couldn't care less. You, on the other hand, if you're the Brendan I remember, seem to have a hang up about yours truly. Every time I post, most anywhere, there you are, bitching and moaning about the condition of the straight conservative white man. Why would you hound me so? Do you love me? (that song is on right now, rah rah for serendipity) Is it my scintillating personality? Some fantasy of yours about the degenerate beatnik playing hard to get? Is it my sweet candy ass? I bet it's my sweet candy ass.
But seriously, Brendy, about this whole Persian/Spartan thing: come on, neither of us cares in the least. You just wanted to argue with me, you wee willy bitch. And hey, at least I have a great-great-great uncle who's of the Anatolian bent; what do you have? Somehow I doubt you're a pure-bred spartan, or even have any in you. I only speak on stuff I have a very mild connection to; you, on the other hand, are just talking out of your ass, for the sake of fighting with the Super Evil Karma Magician Otaku.
And I wouldn't have it any other way, Brendy. Ciao, tiger.
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Otaku... please explain how it is you perceive me as a racist. What is this crap about me "keeping the race pure?" I'm a "crazy cracker" because I disagree with your misinformed take on the events at Thermopolye? And what does your comment "Were you the Brendan that was like John Rocker in the military? " refer to? You lost me completely. I think you're arguing against something that you imagined you read. Speaking of reading... have you read the book?
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I just picked this up about a month ago, what a coincidence. It had that same feeling as Braveheart where, if you're a guy, you deeply feel the fraternal bonds of honor and trust. However, this is deeply a guy story. There's a slight love interest, but mostly it's about a guy who gets to see his city and family murdered by traitorous allies which forces him to become homeless and city-less. Since the Spartans later kick their asses, he wants to become a Spartan and basically enrolls to become a slave unlike some others who are slaves by default. The story details there difference between the Greek cultures where war is simply a sideline that is sometimes practiced, just in case, and the Spartan culture where war is everything (except singing [is that supposed to be a euphemism for their hairstyling/bisexuality?]). The entire story is told as a narrative by this homeless, Spartan slave to the Persian king's recordkeepers. The deep camaraderie in the entire story is what tugs at you as the Spartans, who knew they were doomed before they ever went to Thermopylae (sp?), try to stall the Persians for two reasons: it gives the other Spartans back home time to kick the Greeks into war-mode since they've been dithering and making secret deals with the Persians to avoid getting their asses kicked, and to become a rallying cry, heroes, for the troops to follow. The wives and mothers of these soldiers are women who can motivate the weak-kneed male leaders back home and no one will say they haven't sacrificed when they demand others fight. The demand for a male heir as a precondition for being chosen is a story point. I don't know from the real history, but that's the way the book plays out. Homosexuality is a non-issue. It is not discussed. It's all about how incredibly brave the Spartans are and how they kick ass by being trained from the day they can pick up a shield. It really felt like a guy story and I'm not sure what changes will be forced in order to make it more mainstream.
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---Geez, I think everyone is reading a little too much into everyone else's posts.
Funny as hell though. -
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mann's 1983 horror (read:horrible) classic, THE KEEP. Based on the novel by F. Paul Wilson, and one of my all-time guilty pleasures. Wonder if MM lists it on his resume --not that he needs to.
Mercilessly panned when it came out, but visually quite interesting. Features a very young Gabriel Byrne and (believe-it-or-not), Ian McKellan. Oh yeah, Scott Glenn's in it too.
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In future I shall have the Enter button removed and sealed in a vacuum for all eternity... I don't know if you can rely on any accounts of the Battle of Thermopylae too much. As Pressfield himself writes, the number of troops that Xerxes bought into the fray is probably a huge exaggeration (he provides good reasons for this). More likely it was around 200,000. Nonetheless I am curious about Otaku's claims. The Spartans, he disparagingly claims, were hairdressers. This stems from, I guess, Herodotus's account: 'Xerxes used the time waiting for the fleet to arrive to good advantage. First he sent a spy to see what the Greeks were doing; the astonished horseman returned to report that he had seen the Spartans stripping for exercise and fixing each other's hair.' Gosh. I am sure if that spy had hung around he would have seen them doing a blow dry and perm, eh Otaku? I guess passing a comb through my hair would make me a candidate for the gay Mardi Gras in your book. Nor am I quite sure why Otaku wants to imply that being a hairdresser is effeminate - what sort of cliched world do you live in? I am sure there are gay hairdressers, but there are also, no doubt, gay weightlifters, boxers, marines etc. Things being what they are, it is also probably also something of a Warren Beatty world out there... Get over these hangups. As for this helots/slave/squire thing - it is a bit muddled. A quick scout around of just who was left at the pass seems to bring fairly different results: 'He (Leonidas) allowed most of his troops to withdraw but stayed to cover the retreat with his royal bodyguard (the 300 Spartans) and a group of 700 Thespians.' 'Only the Thespians and the Thebans remained with the Spartans; and of these the Thebans were kept back by Leonidas as hostages, very much against their will.' And, lastly,: 'So Leonidas is left with the 300 Spartans, armed helots and some of the Boeotians (1,100)'. Three kinda different sources with slightly different tallies. The helots question is an odd one. They were probably the original inhabitants of Sparta, who were enslaved by the Dorian conquerors of that territory. The helots constituted the lowest of the four classes of Spartans and had virtually no civil or political rights. Because they were a large and discontented class, the helots were viewed by the ruling Spartans with suspicion and fear. During the Peloponnesian War (431-404 BC), about 2000 helots who had been freed for services to the state were secretly murdered, to forestall plotting against their rulers. Not pleasant for the helots. There is also some indication that many of the helots, not feeling altogether too loyal to the Spartans for good reason, fled. And were the Spartans bi-sexual. Yes. Young men undergoing training were isolated from the rest of society; it is perhaps not surprising that homosexual relations between boys and young men were regarded as standard. Indeed it was a mark of shame for a boy not to be courted by an older youth. The Spartans believed that homosexual relations between young men encouraged unit solidarity and battlefield valor, reasoning that a lover would surely not shame himself before his beloved by flinching back from the line. But you see, Otaku, it was a different world back then, and any historian worth their salt would not try and pin their own times moralities on that of a former era. Come to think of it, there is nothing, apart from some blustery denials, to suggest that the military is not made up of many gay men and women today and that they do not function as well as anyone else. You seem to really wnat to imply this, so I guess that this is another hangup of yours I suspect. And as for your comments about young Brendan, I too am a little nonplussed. Isn't John Rocker a baseball player? And what gives with the race issue, you sad bastard (you say you really couldn't care less on one hand, but you constantly refer to it and your heritage). You have a bunch of very mixed up politics going on there, and there is certainly enough fuel in your posts to suggest that you protest too much about certain things...
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I know this TB is supposed to be about the new Mann film, but I just wanted to say one more thing on Hopkins...I love the guy, and his portrayal of Lechter rubbed me wrong only because it was a little too over the top, and because of the previous screen presentation of the character. Winning an oscar for such a small amount of screen time bothered me as well. Hopkins has many performances better than this that were oscar worthy (Remains of the Day among them). But the reason I felt Brian Cox was more effective, was, as someone said earlier, the fact that he looked like some white-collar criminal. What better way for a doctor to sneak his way into people's lives? His monstrosity is well-hidden, and I find that more chilling than a guy in some dungeon licking the glass plate wall. The scene in Manhunter where Cox opens up the telephone, tells the operator he is a parapalegic and gets her to ring a different number for him so he can get info on Graham really scared me. It showed exactly how devious and resourceful Lechter was. He didn't just spew out funny lines. Hopkins' dialogue was like all the Nightmare on Elm Street films. You can't be too scared of a guy you are laughing along with and rooting for.
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Just to clarify 1. Thucydides' "The Peloponnesian War" deals with the war between Athens and the Spartan led Peloponnesian League which happened AFTER the Greco-Persian Wars and NOT during. Xenophon and Herodotus are the
historians which deal with Thermopylae, not Thucydides (though IMHO his style is much more interesting). 2. Again I have to rely on 19th Century German scholarship, the Sachkritik. Brendan3, the majority of the oarsmen for the Persian fleet at Salamis were NOT Persian but Greek, Ionian mercenaries. The Athenian and other Greeks may have made a heroic effort, but where facts are concerned, there is really no inherently romantic explanation for their victory. Tactics played the decisive factor. The Athenian commander Themistocles awaited the Persian fleet as it emerged from the Salamis channel and the Megarian
channel. As the first Persian ships emerged from the confines of the channels into the Bay of Eleusis the Athenians used the expanse of the bay to gain momentum and engaged the head of the Persian fleet creating a log jam. The traditional history has the battle taking place within the channel and attributing the Greek victory to superior seamanship and more maneuverable craft or as you say, superior virtues. Not true. Which brings me to 4. As I said,
the Greeks put up a heroic effort and won the fight fair and square, but the Persians had their own sense of honor. After the Athenian revolt against the Spartans in 508 B.C., the Athenians were so desperate for support they sent ambassadors to the Persian court offering an "alliance" (read as tribute or submission) in exchange for protection. (Yeah, sounds stupid but they did it). Unexpectedly, the Athenians managed a formidable defense before the Persians interfered, and the Athenians rescinded their pledge in embarrassment. Being Zoroastrians, the Persians saw this toe-tapping brand of diplomacy insulting and anathema to their beliefs in Truth and Light and prepared for war against the oath breakers. None of this needs explanation to make a great
movie, but just for the purpose of this discussion you have to recognize that it wasn't only the Greeks who fought for an ideal. "Anatomy of Error" by Barry Strauss and Josiah Ober lends credence to this explanation of the underlying cause of the Greco-Persian Wars. -
those guys bore the hell outta me. In addition, I will purposely avoid all movies with Affleck in them.
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Sort of off topic, but....if you want an interesting take on Greece just after the Persian Wars, take a look at Gene Wolfe's "Soldier of the Mist," which is narrated by a mercenary who'd been working for the Persians, and received a memory-erasing head-wound at Thermopylae. There's a nice flashback to the battle about mid-book.
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http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/sor?type=phrase&lookup=Thermopylae&alts=1&detail=Image This link will take you to ACTUAL pictures of the Pass, and Hot Gates. See where the brave Spartans gave all.
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that 300 GN by Frank Miller was great. A fucking epic! If Michael Mann is doing this film ... I AM THERE... he is one of the few directors I will go and see anything he does. This sounds great...
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Anything that Michael Mann directs is worth seeing. As for the casting I wouldn't mind seeing Damon in the movie, I think he's a very talented actor. I'm a big Kevin Smith fan and all the films he's done with Ben Affleck are pretty good. Affleck is a decent actor but right now he lives under Matt Damon's shadow.
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I'm really looking forwards to this. If you saw Gladiator and loved it - but also read the book "Gates of Fire" by Steven Pressfield, like I have, then you would agree that this has the potential to be twice as better. Being half italian and half greek I believe my opinion is impartial.
One thing to the film producers:
PLEASE PLEASE get a great soundtrack to the movie, like the one Gladiator had. I belive it to be of great importance.
Also if you only managed to get 299 actors to play the Spartan heroic army then count me in any time - for free! -
The Spartans were the ultimate warriors. That is not a romantic view, but the basic facts. They were born, bred, and lived for nothing but war and combat - their lives had no luxuries, no diversions, nothing without a military theme.
Thermopylae allowed Greece to get it's act together. Leonidaes was certainly at the battle, and died there. Yes, Spartans were all homosexuals but so were most Greeks. Different culture, different time, it can't be measured against our standards.
The Spartans were amazing on the field of battle - no excitement, no yelling, they would march completley calmly toward th enemy. They used flutes, not drums, to march by and all wore identical armour and red tunics. In short, just seeing them was enough to make most enemies s**t themselves. They were the only professional army (besides a few royal bodyguards) in the world at the time. They rarely lost - 300 Spartans stopped the Persians for a few days. Well, later on after Thermopylae the Persians met the FULL Spartan Army....
If you read the greek histories the Greeks talk about the Spartans like a kid talks about their big brother, they were the secret weapon - "invade us and you'll have to fight THEM" -
Otaku... You Persians never got over the fact that we repeatedly defeated your expansionist predecessors.
with respect,
a Hellenic voice. -
Otaku, you obviously have only hatred and jealousy to show in this forum so what is your point?
Are you Persian? Sure, Hollywood will always make mistakes and has to take a Good Guy/Bad Guy stance in pictures, BUT, please do not come here with your malintentioned, uneducated, dumb propaganda.
Hellas gave the light to the world 3000 years before today. If you resent that, fine by me. You only miss out yourself. However, for history lovers, and people who decide to lead their lives with philosopohy, they know what they owe to ancient Greece.
More on the topic now. You try and take something away from Spartans by calling them cowardly, unjust, hair-stylists and homosexuals?
Well, I couldn't stop laughing. You obviously don't know your history, or maybe you just choose to ignore it, and make up the "history" which fullfills your need for hatred and jealousy. These 300 men died defending the highest moral codes in humanity. Persian culture has much to offer to the world, and Persia was a huge empire at the time. of course they too had their honour codes, but think what Greeks had achieved at thetime.
They were not only defending their homes. They were defending the institutions of humanity.
I think you are just annoyed with the fact that no matter what the odds, the Greeks always managed to emerge victorious.
Had it been the other way around, the world might have been a different place today.
Hellenism, and all it contains, apart from being an inheritance to 15,000,000 ethnic Hellenes, is a universal idea. It speaks for everyone and isopen for everyone.
So embrace this never-ending flame...Don't try to belittle it.
For you will be a better man.
Take care,
Perseas -
Oh, and BTW...
Portraying Spartan mothers as some sick old ladies who wanted to see their sons die???
You prove yourslef that YOU have no honour code.
Greece was always threatened by the vast an mighty Persian empire. Had it not been for people like Leonidas, who stuck to it, ("MOLON LAVE") Greece would be overrun by the Persians.
End result? Sure, as a Greek I might have not been here today or the same....BUT, think of what the world would never know.
SOme food for thought Otaku..
I TAN I EPI TAS -
Finally someone said it: stop with the Roman copmarison , we are talking about Greeks!!!!!! And as far as the Byzantium is concerned it was Greek!!!! Read some history!!!!! Now as far as the GOF movie , if i see any Greek soldier without long hair or beard , and i don't care if its Bruce or anyone else, i will leave instantly. And another remark just to state the copmlete ignorance of some people as far history is concerned.... an american asked me once , after i said i was Greek, so you are a Slav aren't you? Well what can a man say???? I this was some thousand years ago , i would have taken his head before he could even realize his mistake. Furthermore i think that people at least at the Western World should not wait for books or films in order to know some history , especially regarding the Greek civilazation, taking under concideration its huge contribution to everything we concider today as civilized! I would like to believe that those would have been my thoughts even if i wasn't Greek!
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LISTEN OTACO IM A REAL LIFE SPARTAN IN THE YEAR 2007 AND BY WHAT I READ YOR A GAY ASIAN/MUTT BOY THAT WISHES HE WENT TO THE AGOGI (THATS WHERE THE BOYS WENT AT 8 YEARS OLD)SO MABY YOU CAN GET HUMPED BY THE OLD SPARTAN.IT SOUNDS TO ME THAT YOU ARE BITTER JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO HISTORY JUST LIKE YOUR SKOPJE BROTHERS WHO THINK THEY ARE MACEDONIANS.I KNOW IT MUST SUCK TO BE YOU KNOWING HOW A LITTLE COUNTRY LIKE GREECE HAS ALL THIS HISTORY AND YOU WELL YOU DONT. SEE FOR EXAMPLE THE SKOPJENS ARE RIGHT WHERE THEY LIVE TODAY IS MACEDONIA ONLY THAT THEY WERE NOT THERE IN ANCIENT TIMES.THAT GIVES THE EGYPTIANS THE RIGHT TO BE MACEDONIANS SINCE ALEXANDER LIVED THERE TOO (STILL CALLED ALEXANDRIA UNTIL TODAY)THE 300 SPARTANS WHERE A FACT (ABOUT 7000 GREEKS TOTAL) WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.AND PATTON USED LEONIDAS`S TACTICS IN WORLD WAR 2. OH I GET IT TACCA THAT IS YOUR NAME RIGHT?? LETS FORGET THE PAST LETS COME TO NOW 2007.WE ARE 10.000.000 GREEKS IN GREECE.YOU WANNA BE PERSIANS/TURKS OR WHATEVER ARE ABOUT 70.000.000 AND ALL I CAN SAY TO YOU IS WHAT MY ANCESTOR LEONIDAS SAID AT THERMOPILES AS ITS CALLED....MOLON LAVE FAG BOY....
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LETS GET ANOTHER FACT STRAIGHT BOYS.THERE WERE FAGS THEN AS TODAY.BUT I GOT A QUESTION TO ASK.CAN YOU IMAGINE A HOMO TODAY TAKING IT IN THE REAR AND THEN GOING OUT TO THE BATTLE FIELD TO KILL SOME PERSIANS...NOT. THERE WERE ORGIES IN ANCIENT ROME THAT SOME CAME TO ANCIENT GREECE (ATHENS MAINLY) NO OFFENCE TO MY FELLOW ATHENIANS.AND GUESS WHAT??THEY WERE NOT SOLDIERS IDIOTS THEY WHERE POLITICIANS..THE SPARTANS WORE RED NOT PINK.GO WATCH THE MOVIE THE 300.THE ONLY GAY LOOKING DUDES WHERE THE PERSIANS.WITH THERE RINKY DINK SHIELDS MADE OF WICKER(TRUE FACT)NO COMPARISON TO A 60 KILO GREEK BRONZE SHIELD.THATS WHY PERSIAN MOMS COULD NOT SAY I TAN I EPI TAS CAUSE YOUR SHIELDS WOULD BREAK.SSOOOO ENOUGH ABOUT OUR FRIEND ATAKOS WHATS HAPPENING WITH THE MOVIE??WHEN
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I've been waiting a while to hear something about this movie. I kept hearing rumors and half ass stuff but now it sounds like it's a sure thing. Only it was seven years ago when this was said. Wow that's wiers to think that I'm responding to a seven year old post. Anyway, if anyone knows anything at all about the production please let me know
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