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Esai Morales To Team With The Guy Who Played His GALACTICA Grandson On Ronald D. Moore’s 17TH PRECINCT Pilot!!

I am Hercules!!


“17th Precinct,” Ronald D. Moore’s proposed NBC series about cops looking after a world overrun by magic, will team “Battlestar Galactica” vet Jamie Bamber with Esai Morales, who played the Bamber character’s “Galactica” grandfather on “Caprica.”

Bamber played fighter pilot Lee Adama; Morales played mob attorney Joe Adama.

In “17th,” Morales will play police lieutenant Liam Butterfield.

The pilot will also reunite James Callis and Tricia Helfer, who played lovers and angels on “Galactica.”

Non-“Galactica” cast members involved with the “17th” pilot include Eamonn Walker (“Oz,” “Kings”) and Stockard Channing (“Grease,” “The West Wing”).

Moore masterminded both “Galactica” and prequel “Caprica” on Syfy.

Find all of Deadline’s story on the matter here.


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Readers Talkback
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  • March 18, 2011, 11:28 p.m. CST

    SO SAY WE ALL!!!

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Had to be said...

  • March 18, 2011, 11:46 p.m. CST

    Sounds like a mid season cancellation

    by FrodoFraggins

  • March 19, 2011, 12:25 a.m. CST

    I might just watch this only for the BSG wetdream potential

    by _Venkman

  • March 19, 2011, 12:52 a.m. CST

    The worst ending in the history of on-screen science fiction

    by SmokingRobot

  • March 19, 2011, 1 a.m. CST

    Someone is already angry about BSG's "God did it" finale?

    by _Venkman

    I watched BSG for the first time last year knowing that "God did it." I honestly did not know what exactly talkbackers meant by this but went into the show with an open mind. BSG was honestly a great show and although season 4 had its weak parts, I really loved the show and had no problem with the ending. Throughout it's run, it was pretty clear a higher power had something to do with the events in the show and Six even said she was an angel to Baltar.

  • Because the mashup of SciFi and religion in LOST and BSG are two of the best calls ever. Science Fiction is all about exploring the endless possibilities of...everything. To shut out the possibility that there might be one all powerful diety pulling the strings goes against SciFi's basic principles. You don't have any more evidence that there are other civilizations out in the universe than you do of Jesus' existence. That may change one day, but so far, it has not. I know the idea of a God is uncomfortable for some, but it's certainly worthy of it's place in Science Fiction. It's not like LOST and BSG just pulled those storylines outta their ass either. Go back and watch again. The groundwork was laid out well ahead of time. This is America and you are entitled to you opinions of course. I just think the idea that Sci Fi and religion don't mix is a stupid one.

  • March 19, 2011, 2:27 a.m. CST

    What did in-head 6 say in the FUCKING FIRST EPISODE?

    by pushthebuttonmax

    Baltar: "What are you?" Six: "I'm an angel from God." First episode. FIRST EPISODE!!! YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS!!! SO SHUT THE FUCK UUUUUUPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus.

  • March 19, 2011, 5:13 a.m. CST

    I'm still sore about Caprica's cancellation

    by HelmetBoy

    For me it's on a par with cancelling Firefly, which was also mind blowing. And just for the record, the use of an omniscient God-like figure in BSG was utterly brilliant and completely fit in with the ethos of the show. The religious aspect wasn't just shoe-horned in like the finale of Lost; it was an underlying current of the entire series, and seen as the show was dealing with an event of such prodigious proportions (the annihilation of the human race), it only made sense that there would be an appropriately epic element underlying those chain of events. So combine this with some simply fantastic character ending points and, in my opinion, you've got one of the best finale's to one of the greatest TV shows of all time. I was utterly satisfied.

  • March 19, 2011, 5:14 a.m. CST

    The cancellation of Caprica was a sin.

    by HelmetBoy

    For me it's on a par with cancelling Firefly, which was also mind blowing. And just for the record, the use of an omniscient God-like figure in BSG was utterly brilliant and completely fit in with the ethos of the show. The religious aspect wasn't just shoe-horned in like the finale of Lost; it was an underlying current of the entire series, and seen as the show was dealing with an event of such prodigious proportions (the annihilation of the human race), it only made sense that there would be an appropriately epic element underlying those chain of events. So combine this with some simply fantastic character ending points and, in my opinion, you've got one of the best finale's to one of the greatest TV shows of all time. I was utterly satisfied.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:01 a.m. CST

    pushthebuttonmax hit the nail on the head

    by citizenchris099

    These themes were their from the beginning. Thats not to say you have to dig them or whatever. All I'm saying is that you can't just pick on the ending as if they pulled that out of their ass. The show had a loose frame work or a mythology from the beginning...though a great deal of this was created while the show was in big deal. It should be noted though that one of two endings to the series was proposed in RDM's original show bible and the one we got was one of them.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:07 a.m. CST

    it wasn't shoehorned into LOST either...

    by Rebel Scumb

    The show had a monster in the first episode, magic, ghosts, communing with the dead, destiny/fate, messages through dreams, characters with religious beliefs (charlie, eko, richard, etc) and others with more undefined faith (locke, desmond, etc) were apart of the show all along. Lost never took a stance on religon, but it dealt with it a lot, they also showed again and again that faith and science were 2 sides of the same coin, and what one person would call 'the source of all good and evil at the heart of the island' another person would call 'electromagnetic anomolly', and both were correct, or incorrect. Battlestar not only had the 'god' stuff in it from the beginning, it is, above all else, a show that was primarily ABOUT religon and faith, and explored all sides of it, the dangers of blind faith, violence that can ensue as a result. Both endings were approiate to their shows, and set up well in advanced. Also both endings brought satisfying action/drama climaxes to the ongoing character stories. I'm an agnostic, and as adamantly against organized religon as a person can be. If I could push a button today that would make every religon in the world vanish instantly from our species minds, I would. Without hestitation. I think these archaic belief systems are one of the main things holding humans back from evolving and maturing into a better more sensible creature. But I also think that science has become to modern people what religon was for primative humans (and sadly still many today), its a means of coping and pretending we have answers to the mysteries of the universe, when really at best we have is an interpretation. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all scientific findings are wrong, far from it. Most of what we've learned is probably correct, but science like religon also gives people free licence to commit horrible attrocities, and science tends to give people the mentality of doing things, just to see if they can, and not bothering to question the ethics of if they should. Ultimately I think it can be just as destructive. That said. Lets all try to keep a reality check, these were serialized, scifi/fantasy adventure shows. Certainly, a step up from most others, strong acting, at most times taking the material more seriously than other shows have. But mixing spiritualism and scifi (or spi-fi) in shows provides a wonderful canvas to work in. Even being anti-religous, I don't have any issues with the endings of either show, or the religous/spiritual content of either, any more than I mind their being The Force in starwars, or magic in lord of the rings, or holodecks in star trek. Ultimately its all just different names and interpretations of the fantastical.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST

    for the last time, people dont hate the ending

    by JAMF

    because it has religious shit in it - as many have pointed out above that stuff was there from the beginning, on lost as well as bsg. the problem is that towards the end it was just badly written hogwash! even the sciencey parts of it dont make any sense, never mind any 'religious' or 'spiritual' mumbo jumbo in it. thats the problem i think most people have with the last episodes of bsg and lost.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:49 a.m. CST

    Hear hear Rebel Scum

    by proevad

    hear hear

  • March 19, 2011, 8:58 a.m. CST

    What jamf said.

    by Shan

    Myself personally, I hated the last season of BSG because the writing and the planning was terrible and the finale especially awful, not just because "God did it". That was obvious fairly early on. IMO etc

  • March 19, 2011, 8:58 a.m. CST

    Title sounds like Warehouse 13 spin off

    by Drath

    They could use a more interesting title--but I guess Caprica's failure discouraged that a bit.

  • March 19, 2011, 9:56 a.m. CST

    shan & jamf

    by Rebel Scumb

    If thats how you felt thats perfectly valid. I don't care if people like or dislike the same things as me, its actually preferable that people have a varity of opinions. I just get annoyed when people slam/dislike something based on their own misinterpration/lack of ability to follow what actually happened, or because they've projected their own expectations ontop of what actually happened. Remember when Lost ended and there were a LOT of people complaining about the ending, because they thought that the ending meant that all of them died in the plane crash in the pilot, and none of the stuff in the 6 seasons (on the island and otherwise) ever actually happened. And then they hated on the show because of that. But the ending they hated, isn't even what happened. That would be like hating the Sixth Sense because you think Bruce Willis was revealed to be an alien at the end. But if you just genuinely didn't feel they weren't very well written, well more power to you. I don't agree, but I can respect that I thought the third season of BSG, and the fifth season of LOST were both pretty weak compared to the other seasons (although admittedly still better than most stuff on TV) So I don't consider above reproach, but I liked the finales for both. Actually oddly enough, I'll be watching the Lost finale today, just finishing up a rewatch of the series. I rewatched BSG back in December/january as well. I do think for people who disliked the ending of BSG, but liked most of the show, its worth going back and giving another shot to. There were a lot of parts I felt were weak when they aired, that played a lot better upon second viewing. And thanks Proevad

  • March 19, 2011, 9:57 a.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    I agree about the title, it could be more unique. I do like that at least this article confirms its a world "over run with magic" and not another "secret super powers, that the general public never knows about"

  • March 19, 2011, 10:21 a.m. CST

    The last episode really wasn't that bad

    by _Venkman

    It would have been nice to get an explanation about Starbuck tho

  • March 19, 2011, 10:37 a.m. CST

    Don't lump BSG in with LOST

    by theGoldbergV

    BSG had overtly religious elements from the start, but its not a Judeo Christian God at the centre of the story, its "something else". As stated numerous times above, Six stated she was Angel over and over again, and in Home in season 2 she says she's leading them to "the end of the human race". Which she did. Because modern Earth is made of billions of human/cylon hybrids. So I understand if people don't like the ending, but to say its inconsistent with what came before isn't really true. LOST on the otherhand? Remember that there's nothing in the last episode that states that their sideways bollocks purgatory heaven thing has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Island or its power. Plus, there's that eye-rolling scene with Kate and Desmond where she says "His name is Christian Shepherd...really?" LOST's ending was a hamfisted emotional distraction technique to hide the fact they'd been pulling plot out their asses for 6 years. Imagine the writers room: "How do we explain what the Island is, or how the cabin works, or the donkey wheel or [insert any one of about a hundred abandoned plotpoints here]? We can't? Oh well, lets just have everyone hug in slow motion and we'll play clips from previous episodes to remind the audience that the show was good at one point. That'll work. Why have narrative closure when nostalgia will do?" The whole final season's sidways story was a giant cock-tease with no pay-off. Just an excuse to bring back old characters and have fans obsess over "what it all means". Answer: fuck all. No, I wouldn't put the endings to LOST and BSG in the same league at all

  • March 19, 2011, 10:54 a.m. CST

    smokingrobot is a troll

    by bigpale

    He can't help but peddle someone else's butthurt-comments about how BSG didn't do for him what he wanted it to. He apparently can't conjure up his own thoughts so he peddles someone else's. That is, unless smokingrobot IS the guy that wrote that diatribe. In which case he's just a sad little man who continues to pimp his tripe. I find it amazing that people can't seem to let it go. It's really pitiable. I feel sorry for them. But at the same time I understand: They didn't like the ending, so they ran to the internet hoping/assuming everyone agreed with them. When the found out many people enjoyed the ending -- maybe even *gasp* LOVED it, they made it their quest to convince the eworld that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Sad.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:59 a.m. CST


    by clapperific33

    i tried to read that link you posted but the guy is so full of paraphrasing but he says things like "some people argue that the religion was foreshadowed, and i can see their point, but SF fans shouldn't expect God to be the answer" a huge part of his critique is that even though throughout the show they left plenty of clues, it's against his own personal SF rules to have a god, so it's bad if people don't like the plots of the last season, or feel that some elements were too convenient, or think that the characters acted out of character, or found it cheesy, i disagree, but i can understand where they are coming from but if someone just basically dismisses it out of hand because it broke some sort of arbitrary rule, i think that's poor reasoning

  • March 19, 2011, 11:20 a.m. CST

    "God did it" was simply lazy writing and poor creativity.

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    Taking into account Six's line about being an angel from God, then why did those people suffer all those years? God must be a sick fucking bastard. If "God did it" then they should have killed God at the end.

  • March 19, 2011, 11:23 a.m. CST

    Galactica Was Amazing Television, But...

    by FreeBeer

    It has to be said, the first two season's were far plus the first five episodes of season three were far superior to what came after. This isn't because of the God thing (if you have a problem with him being called God, think of him as Q, or a worm hole alien) it's because the focus shifted it's focus from the human race to the Cylons, and I just didn't find the Cylons nearly as interesting. I understand RDM wanted to pave the way for the two races to finally merge, and he wanted to make the Cylons something more than just outright villains, in keeping with it being a reflection of real world conflict, but I just didn't find the Cylon characters and storylines all that interesting (accept for Leoben, who became far less interesting to me after he find the crashed viper with Starbuck). Of course I enjoyed the reveal and following storyline of the final five, but I think of them more as human characters than Cylons. SAYING THAT, even though for me there was a dip in quality for the last couple of seasons, it was still better than almost anything else on television. A I dug the finale, could have been better but I think if they had gotten one more season and had more time to wrap thing up it probably would have been spectacular. As for 17th Precinct, I don't know, magic? Again?

  • March 19, 2011, 11:23 a.m. CST

    Indeed Clapperific33

    by Rebel Scumb

    My sentiments exactly. Especially since throughout scifi we've seen godesque aliens toying with more primitive races, who could easily percieve them as god Look at 'Q' on TNG, he is by all definitions, a god. He can do ANYTHING, literally anything! and he interferes directly and indirectly with humans and others. SO if people really can't reconcile a "god" in scifi, just assume its a 'Q' type being, who has chosen to call itself god. And actually the angels even point out that "it" doesn't like being called that.

  • March 19, 2011, 11:26 a.m. CST

    sterotypical evil archer

    by Rebel Scumb

    Well that argument could be used against the "god" or "gods" of any mythology or religon. They are pretty much always sick bastards, who sacrifice millions needlessly. Also, since to a god, humans would seem like insects. And we as human regularly mistreat animals, and insects on a daily basis, why would god be any different?

  • March 19, 2011, 11:39 a.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    The sideways was a means to resolve the characters, which Lost has always focused heavily on. Its no different than having the flashbacks, which also don't have any ties to the island. And so what if its an excuse to bring back the dead characters, what's wrong with that? Its a great way to give the last season some finality, and a trip down memory lane. The flash sideways, when you see them on second viewing, knowing what they are, take on a really different feel. Their lives in that world are a reflection of how they viewed themselves. So when you have Sayid saying just before he dies in the premiere, that he's done so many horrible things, that where ever he goes when he dies, it won't be very pleasant. And we see that in his sideways, he isn't with Nadia, because deep down he didn't feel he deserved to be with her. A reflection of how he felt about himself. I thought that was a really poignant way to resolve each of the characters. Is it overly sentimental? Sure. But so what. Most fiction is. The writers wanted to have one big mystery that ran throughout the final season, to make it also stand on its own, and not just be a laundry list of answers from previous seasons. I can appreciate that. Overall the show answered MOST of the mysteries, sure there are a few I would of liked to know more about, and I do agree all that business with the cabin was made overly complicated, and I would of liked the modivations of Widmore and Eloise to be more defined. But I think one of the primary problems with the 5th season is it got too focused on the mythology, the island history, widmore/eloise/jacob/Richard/dharma type stuff, Lost was always at its most engaging when it focused on the main characters, and the sideways allowed them to do that. Don't get me wrong, of the 6 seasons, I think the 6th is the second weakest (the 5th being the weakest in my opinion), but I still think its really good overall. The main thing I wish had been different is I think the stuff with the temple was very poorly handled. The temple could of been a place to answer a LOT of stuff, and I was dissappointed that ultimately The Others proved to be fairly irrelevant to the endgame of the show. If The Source had been inside the temple, and was also the way The Others came and went from the island (since it was established that they DID come & go, before and after the submarine, but never explained how), then it would of made a lot more sense, and the Man in Blacks need to get in there would make more sense to.

  • March 19, 2011, 11:41 a.m. CST

    well put freebeer

    by Rebel Scumb

    I agree with everything you wrote.

  • March 19, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    Rebel Scumb

    by theGoldbergV

    Yeah I get that it was about the characters. Thing is, I didn't watch LOST for the characters. I watched it for the Island and the mysteries. Some of the characters were good, Sayid, Sawyer, even Jack had his moments in season 5. But in the final season they turned Sayid into a zombie, Claire was mad, Desmond, Widmore, Ben and all the Temple Others had motivations that were obscured from the audience and many of the other characters (Miles, Richard, Lapidus, Sun, Ilana) were limited to one line an episode and in some cases uncerimoniously killed. To have a finale "all about the characters" having spent a whole season ignoring them just didn't work for me. They introduced MIB and Jacob in an attempt to tie up some mysteries, but the affect was to take a story of epic proportions and reduce it to a squabble between brothers. The moment in Across The Sea when they find the magic cave was when LOST died and after that it never recovered.

  • March 19, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    But back to the subject at hand

    by theGoldbergV

    This District 17 looks interesting based on the talent involved. Then again, Virtuosity was brilliant and it didn't even get picked up for series

  • March 19, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    I respectfully disagree

    by Rebel Scumb

    The man in black/monster were an element in the show since the pilot, and since the third season we knew it/he could take the form of the dead, which meant he had been christian/yemi/dave/etc althroughout the first 2 seasons. Jacob was first mentioned in season 3, the only thing we were introduced to at the end of the 5th seasons was that these 2 entities were inconflict with each other. And even that arguably, was foreshadowed in the pilot with the backgammon speech Do I think some of it could of been handled better? Sure. But I think ultimately there was still going to need to be a 'the source' type element at some stage. And characters, are the reason a show like lost thrived, while one like Heroes, which had no character development, and only mythology was a disaster. Your not really giving the characters their fair due. This was a show with about a dozen main characters off the bat. All of whom were easily identifiable, understandable and memorable after the pilot. Some shows take years to get the characters to that place. And they managed to add many more memorable ones over the years to, Juliet, Ben, Desmond, faraday, etc. If you were just watching for the island and the mysteries, then you were always going to be dissappointed. I'm not saying that wasn't a big draw of the show, but ultimately not why a show like this thrives. Whether its X-files, Lost, Twin peaks, or whatever.

  • March 19, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST

    Subject at hand

    by Rebel Scumb

    At the very least, they've earned me watching the first 4-5 episodes. I try not to judge a show on its pilot, as most shows, even great ones have awful pilots. There are a few exceptions of course. Lost/24/BSG/Carnivale all had solid pilots. But plenty of good shows have bad ones, so I usually try to give them at least 2 episodes. Is the virtuosity pilot worth checking out? I never saw it.

  • March 19, 2011, 12:35 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb, humans and cylons are insects? That's what you consider BSG to be about?

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    BSG was about the struggle; but the struggle ended far too easily. I enjoyed the show for what was below the surface, but the "God did it" ending defied the deeper meanings of the, drama, symbolism, emotions, characters and social commentary that made BSG a successful story worth watching. It was an unsatisfactory ending to what had been a wonderful show. Endings do matter. What exactly was the Colon plan mentioned at the opening of most of the episodes? Summing it up that many religions and mythologies have gods as mean bastards completely disregards the characters we watched weekly. We watched a show about characters and then in the end, those characters didn't matter, "because that's the way God works." Lazy writing backed up by not actually knowing how to end the series. Cancellation would have left BSG in a more favorable light than a primitive unsophisticated easy way out.

  • Fucking Verizon's network ain't working worth shit today.

  • March 19, 2011, 1:19 p.m. CST

    I Did Wonder After The Finale..

    by FreeBeer

    ..If they really should have tried to tie up all the loose ends. As I said the show was meant to go one for another season so it did feel a bit rushed. Perhaps the mid season finale would have been a better ending, when they find the first Earth? Sure, there would have been many unanswered questions, but it would have been a solid ending I feel. I felt the same about The X Files, was it the season 5 finale? When an information tells Mulder that there never were aliens, the government invented them as a distraction, and Mulder shoots himself. What a wonderful head fuck that would have been if they'd left it there! Prob would have been one of the most talked about finales of all time. OF course, the ending of Galactica we were given prob is has become the most talked about ending of all time, for better or worse.

  • March 19, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    I never said that was what BSG was about...

    by Rebel Scumb

    I said thats what humans and cylons would seem like to a god. And of course endings matter. I'm on record as saying I really like the ending to BSG, it did everything I wanted the ending to do. Good character moments, epic final battle, explained the in-head-baltar & in-head-Six, resolved the search for earth, and the operahouse. It all felt wholly approiate to me. I'm not sure how you can argue that the ending made it that the characters had no meaning. In the end it was the characters that mattered most. I don't really even see what the basis for the 'god did it' complaining is in regards to. The humans mounted a very dangerous mission and rescued Hera and defeated Cavill, and they did it by uniting with the Cylon rebels, which again they did on their own. Baltar ultimately was the one who resolved the decades long conflict, and Starbuck made the split second realization that saved them all and lead them to earth. Apollo showed the true qualities of a leader, Adama some great military muster and strategy, Roslin learned humility. And the remaining survivors made a decision to change their way of life, and start anew. Saying that 'god did it' is over simplifying the events of the finale to the point of absurdity. I don't see it as lazy writing, because I feel the way it ended was what I had always imagined it would end I agree the cylon plan was never explained, but thats not the fault of the series finale, the show had already passed the point of the plan ever making sense by the end of the second season. Orienting the finale around "and they have a plan" and that late stage in the game would not have lead to a better ending. Although, you could easily argue that 'the plan' was simply to wipe out the humans, and create a human/cylon hybrid, as that was the agenda they were pushing for most of the series. I agree it doesn't live up to the ominous mystery the teaser emparts, but the show is what is it is, and the ending doesnt matter in that respect

  • March 19, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    I've thought that about the mid season finale as well

    by Rebel Scumb

    But ultimately I'm glad they resolved it the way they did. Actually the ending I thought they were going to go with when the finale started, was to have the entire finale be the 'caprica before the fall' flashbacks, and not resolve the "present day" conflict at all which would DEFINITELY have divided people and had people talking.

  • March 19, 2011, 1:47 p.m. CST

    And They Have A Plan..

    by FreeBeer

    RDM has already said in interviews that line in the opening credits was not his idea. The studio thought that putting this in the title would be a clever way of attracting viewers of shows like The X Files and Lost and what not, with the promise of an ongoing mystery. The other proposed finale would have been Galactica jumps into present day Earth's orbit and is shot down by nukes, and that would definately have been less satisfying.

  • March 19, 2011, 2:05 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb, your arguments fall to an apologist nature.

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    "God did it" is indeed "over simplifying;" that is why it was lazy writing and poor creativity, that is why the ending does not mesh with the series as a whole. It was an arrogant shoe-horn moment, agreed to by yes-men. The easiest ending is not a profound moment. Re-watching the series, knowing the ending, robs it of the struggle, the emotion, and the motivations. Entire scenes become meaningless and pointless. Story-wise those scenes become wasted moments. Production-wise it was money thrown away. Fan-wise is was an insult. "God did it" allowed the characters to give up where they used to fight and question, without the proper growth and additional struggle to actually come to that ending. You need to re-evaluate what epiphany is and how it works in storytelling. Many storytellers and fans of the series have hatred and disappointment towards the ending. It was a show that dressed and sold itself as a lie to the promise it preached. The apologists remain in an ever shrinking minority. I enjoy what the show was, not what it became. due to the lazy writing, poor creativity, unchecked egos and failed execution of skills and art that were present through most of the series.

  • March 19, 2011, 2:23 p.m. CST

    I meant it was 'over symplifiying' on your part, not the writers...

    by Rebel Scumb

    You're trying to box the entire finale into one simple geek catchphrase of criticism, while ignore almost all of the content of the episode you're critisizing. What exactly is it you felt god did? And I'm no apologist. If it were up to me, Adama would of died when he got shot by Boomer at the end of season 1, Roslin would of succumb to her cancer in season 2, and there never would of been a 'final 5' storyline. But I'm judging the show based on what it was, and not what I thought should of have happened. As for entire scenes becoming meaningless, have you bothered to rewatch the series since it ended? I did. I was worried that knowing so many character turned out to be cylons would destroy my ability to enjoy the show. I actually found overall I enjoyed the series as a whole a LOT more than when it aired. When it aired, I hated the 3rd quarter of season 2 (starting with resurrection ship part 2) all of season 3 after the premiere, and bits and pieces of season 4 (though for the most part I liked it). Watching it again, I liked nearly every single episode, I just took it for what it is, without having any speculation to worry about. Again, you argue that 'god did it' prevents the characters from struggling, but in what way? The series was filled with struggle, strife and suffering right up until they get to earth. The humans and cylons, other than cavill's faction had already made peace by that point. Which was achieved by the humans. The only god intervention was the operahouse visions, and again, those have been in the series since the season 1 finale. You say: "You need to re-evaluate what epiphany is and how it works in storytelling." But you're not really following your own advice. The epiphany has already happened in the episode 'revelations' when they decide to start working with the cylons. And continues right up to the finale with them coming onboard to hybridize Galactica. There is no 'epiphany' in the finale, for me to re-evaluate. So again, what exactly is it you feel 'god did' that irks you so much? You go on to say: "Many storytellers and fans of the series have hatred and disappointment towards the ending." That's true of anything with high expectations. And as I've already mentioned, some criticisms are perfectly valid, but 'god did it' isn't one of them. If thats the only complaint, I have a tough time believing people watched the show at all. Because as pointed out, destiny, the cycle of time, prophecy, and the influence of a higher power have been with the show from the start. It would have been more of a cheat to simply ignore this in the finale and try and have a non-mystical ending. I'm not even going to bother to ask how you can possibly know how the 'apologist margin' has varied over time, as at this point you're just making up demographics to suit your opinion. You didn't like the ending, thats fine. You still haven't pointed to any specific examples of god 'doing it' (that sounds divinely dirty). I for one thought of the show as being very uneven when it ended. I loved the first season, and half of the second season, and didn't think the show got good again until towards the ending. Upon second viewing a few months ago though, I've really reconsidered that and say as a whole, this was a very strong series, with very few real weak points. You obviously don't agree, but that you haven't gotten to share the same enjoyment as I did.

  • March 19, 2011, 2:25 p.m. CST

    And I'm no apologist.

    by Rebel Scumb

    If something is bad, I'll be the first to say so. For example, I do think it was a mistake to have Starbuck and Apollo as part of the ground attack, and not flying vipers Having those 2 in the cockpits one last time would of really brought the series home, and is the most iconic element from both the new and old versions of the show. Since having them in the ground assault added nothing to the plot, there was no reason not to have them flying fighters.

  • March 19, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb, you admit there was potential for a more satisfying ending.

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    That is how most people feel. Thanks for clearing up what I took to be an apologist attitude as you also see the potential the series could have ended on. Otherwise, I disagree with you. If you want to read more about the professional writers, producers, critics, and reviewers that were disappointed, a simple Google search and blog entries will provide a plethora such supporting opinion; far more than those who enjoyed it, but you'll find those to. Many in-head Six scenes don't work upon re-watching, for example, Baltar's questionable sanity no longer works, which was why so many enjoyed the character to begin with. The problems cascade from there.

  • March 19, 2011, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Agreed braindrain, plus...

    by Rebel Scumb

    The Others constantly saying they are 'the good guys', implies they have some sort of 'bad guys' they are against. I'm not saying the way the conflict was presented was always perfect, but one thing I do feel was planned from very early in the series and executed very consistently throughout the show was the whole build up to the man in black/monster as the big bad. Even in season 5, which I consider by far the weakest of the show, the set up of Locke dying and Man in Black impersonating him is executed really expertly. The audience was so ready to believe that Locke would resurrect even before his actual death episode, and then the one where we do see him get hung by Ben, starts with us already knowing Locke comes back to life, so when he dies, you almost feel its triumphant and proves Locke's faith in the island was correct. The shock in the finale of finding out that the Locke for the second half of the season wasn't Locke at all, is doubly devastating when you realize that when Locke got murdered by Ben, that he was dead, and that was the end of his sad life. But as the conflict between jacob and MiB, I do think they could of tied it more directly into the Ben vs Widmore conflict from seasons 3-4, as ultimately I think that conflict was more interesting. I'm not really sure how would be the best way to accomplish that, but I would of liked the Others to be more intergral to the endgame overall.

  • March 19, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Well more satisfying in a nostalgic sense...

    by Rebel Scumb

    It just would of been cool to see them as fighter pilots one last time. It wouldn't of changed anything about the ultimate resolution, or really any of the events that happen in the final hours. Just that they would of been flying around shooting evil cylon raiders, instead of running around shooting evil cylon centurions. As for professional critics and whatnot, I couldn't care less what they think. My main criticisms, as I said were, it would be my preference that the show had been more ruthless about killing off its leads. Which is pretty much true of every show I can think of besides 24 and Lost, which were both pretty blood thirsty about killing off main characters without warning. Something its important to know about me when it comes to TV, is that I consider the ST:TNG episode 'skin of evil' the most influencial tv episode I ever saw as a kid. They killed of Tasha 15mins into the episode, without any warning. No noble sacrifice, no multi episode arc leading up to her death. Just a sudden, meaningless death, like a redshirt would have in any other episode. As a scifi fan, even at the early age I was when that first aired, I just assumed some how she would come back to life at the end. But she doesn't. Even as a kid, that felt a lot more realistic to me than the way characters usually die on shows. And it made the show more interesting. Afterall if Tasha could die like that. Maybe so could Geordi, or Worf, or Riker, or Picard. It raised the stakes. I just thought BSG would of been interesting as a passing of the torch type show. Where the younger characters graduate up through the ranks. So like Adama dies, Tigh gets put in charge. Makes a royal mess and is relieved of command. Apollo becomes the commander. When they stop Cain, then Starbuck becomes teh commander of the pegasus. Eventually maybe even apollo and starbuck die, and Gaetta or Tyrol ends up as commander, Hotdog is the CAG, etc. So by the end of the series all the original main heros are gone. But again thats just a personal preference. I like those kinds of stories. Taking BSG as it is, and that it isn't that kind of story, I think they did a great job with it. And just because I think it would of been a bold move to kill adama at the end of season 1, doesn't mean that I think they didn't do a lot of great stuff with him after that. As for the in-head-six stuff not working in retrospect. I could not disagree more. Rewatching the show this past Winter, I would say the thing I was most shocked about was just how well, and "planned from the start" her being an Angel worked. I watched every episode through the lens of how it jived based on the finale, and was VERY pleased with how that aspect worked. Why doesn't Baltar's questionable sanity work? It doesn't matter if the Six in his head is an Angel or a cylon chip, Baltar is still under incredible mental strain, and also carrying around fear of being outed as a traitor. It doesn't matter what the truth turned out to be, he believed he was losing his mind. What scenes do you think don't work with the revelation (if you can even call it that, since again, she did state she was an angel from the beginning)? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm genuinely curious. There could be something I missed. But I felt when I was watching it, that I understood her (in-head-6) as a character much better knowing she was an angel. Or a 'being of light' as they were called on the old show.

  • At least 10 episodes, maybe even the whole of season 3. The show peaked for me with the season 2 finale. And I mean that by the very definition of the word. Not that it was bad after that, but just that that was the high point, the way season 2 ended. And the season opener of season 3 delivers on the promise of season 2s ending perfectly. All the exodus stuff was good to, I just didn't like how it felt like all the changes got undone so quickly after that. I'm not a fan of reset buttons being hit on shows, or status quos. Thats one of the reasons I loved LOST, a show that did not have a status quo at all. There is no "regular" episode of Lost, since the definition of what is going on on the show at any given time changes so much from episode to episode, and even more so from season to season. There was also some continuity stuff in the exodus/occupation stuff I felt was a bit sloppy. Like Duck being the sucide bomber at the graduation ceremony and blowing everyone up. Yet Jammer was standing right behind him and somehow was unharmed in the next episode. Or Cally running away from the execution squad, and you hear the gun fire, but in the next episode those events play out completely differently. That kind of stuff irks me. In any show. Thats why the 5th season of Lost bugs me (among other reasons), because the continuity was pretty strong up until then, but the managed to mess up the back stories for Ben/Rousseau/Widmore/Jeremy Bentham and some other facts as well that were firmly established. Anyways, I thought the occupation story on BSG as a whole was VERY ambitious, and the tone they set visually, was very daring for this kind of show. I know part of why they had to get them off the planet was due to budget constraints, and a lot of fans would of abandoned the show because they can't handle change (again thats true of fans of most shows). But I really like when a show will make a meal out of a situation. A lot of people complained when Jack/Kate/Sawyer were stuck in cages on Hydra island for the first quarter of season 3 of Lost, but I was really glad they kept that going for as long as they did. it made it feel signifigant, and not just another dilemma of the week that could be resolved simply.

  • March 19, 2011, 5:02 p.m. CST

    i wouldn't complain about Tigh

    by Rebel Scumb

    That dude is awesome. In general I really like when the same group of actors gets reused in another show or movie. Reminds me of old acting troups and its a cool way to stretch peoples range.

  • March 19, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    are we going to have this debate every single time

    by oisin5199

    that anything remotely connected to BSG is mentioned? I mean, enough already. And this is all because smokingrobot is a fucking troll. stereotypical evil archer: you wrote about these stupid criticisms of the BSG ending: "That is how most people feel." Bull. Shit. 'God did it' whiners are just a very vocal and obnoxious minority that can't let it go and accept that BSG wasn't the show they wanted it to be, instead of the show it clearly was from the very beginning. Nothing in that finale was out of sync with what the show had always been. This is not being an "apologist" - this is just observing what's there on the screen. Lazy writing, my ass. This was ballsy and gut-wrenching. Most heartbreaking line ever: "I know about farming." This was wonderful redemption for characters that had suffered so much throughout the show, even supposed villains. Can we just move on, and see what Ron Moore does with his next series?

  • March 19, 2011, 7:01 p.m. CST

    oisin5199: I really like the farming line to.

    by Rebel Scumb

    I know some people don't like all the focus on the cylon characters in seasons 3 & 4, but I've always wanted to see a show that showed both sides of a major conflict. There are times in BSG really nails that dynamic perfectly, and throughout they did a good job of having shades of grey instead of black and white. Baltar and Six were probably the best examples of characters that were both highly sympathetic and yet by all the definitions, villians at the same time.

  • March 19, 2011, 7:03 p.m. CST

    The 17th Precinct

    by Rebel Scumb

    I'm really curious what the visual style of the show will be. Do you think they'll go for a traditional fantasy type look. Something in the vein of Carnivale, with lots of atmosphere Or do you think they will try the same gritty documentary/cinema verte look that BSG did. That might be an interesting approach to something filled with Magic.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:11 p.m. CST

    Jonathan Frakes

    by Rebel Scumb

    It might just be because I've been rewatching a lot of old TNG lately, but it would be great if Ron Moore brought Jonathan Frakes onto the 17th Precinct, even if not for acting, if they got him to direct some episodes. He did some of the best episodes of TNG

  • March 19, 2011, 8:20 p.m. CST

    Noone complaining that God wasn't foresahdowed in BSG

    by FrodoFraggins

    Their just shocked that the writers actually meant that head 6 was an angel. Pretty disappointing all around. I loved the BSG finale up until humanity threw all of its technology into the sun and left Earth unprotected from the Cylons who have shown time and again that they can't be trusted. Even then I would have been OK if the finale ended with Adama on his little hill.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:20 p.m. CST

    sorry but the ending sucks


    I have a secret to tell you. From one godless monkey to another: up until the point that God actually proved to be real in the BSG universe, I really enjoyed the religious aspects of the show. I found it fascinating that a race of machines could have a monotheistic culture and that the human race was polytheistic. It was not lost on me either that the monotheistic culture waged their own form of ethnic cleansing upon the religiously misguided humans. Be that as it may, what really pulled me in was the process of mulling over how a race of machines could find religion in the first place, and secondly, why the humans were polytheistic. I certainly didn’t expect that the war they were fighting was a conflict waged by proxy, with Cylons and humans as mere puppets, with Almighty God on one side pulling His strings and the six gods on the other side pulling theirs. I knew I wasn’t watching a story akin to the Iliad. I could tell that the story was driven by the characters who were actually onstage—not by God or the gods. To think otherwise would have been downright foolish. I am only half the fool, it turns out. Understand though: I am not the fool because I was wrong. I am the fool because I thought RDM & Co. were honest brokers. Silly me. I believe it was John Joseph Adams, one of’s bloggers and member of the BSG Roundtable, that succinctly said, “Ronald D. Moore is dead to me.” Actually, it’s worse. His characters are dead. All of them. They’ve been gutted, fileted, and hung out to dry. Their eviscerated husks are nothing more than bitter memories of what could’ve and should’ve been. This is what happens when writers run away from their own story, when they forego the most basic rule of writing: don’t lie to your audience. Don’t dupe them. Don’t you dare take their intelligence and treat it like toilet paper. Don’t. You. Dare. But they did. You know what a deus ex machina is—even if you’re unfamiliar with the term. It’s when some cheesy plot device comes out of nowhere to solve all the plot problems of the story, rendering useless all the previous plot struggles that had come before it. Remember the TV show, Dallas? Bobby Ewing was dead, right? Wrong! It was all a dream! It was a dream! Some stupid moron had to have a dream in order to bring Bobby back. Science fiction doesn’t have to use dreams though, because we have way-cool high tech devices like nanotechnology, and AI—but in BSG’s case, they couldn’t even do that. They went to God Himself. Pah! For those of you who respectfully disagree with the notion that God suddenly came out of the blue, that Head Six (Baltar’s seemingly imaginary friend) was somehow adequate foreshadowing that God really was at hand, my question is this: how? A predictive Head Six (who claimed she was an angel) was no more a hint of God’s true existence than the predictive Oracle of Pithia was for the actual existence of the six gods. They both felt mystical, yes; they both felt supernatural, yes; but there was nothing about these two parallel story lines that couldn’t be explained by the elements that had already been introduced in the story. Hence, what we have here folks—God’s master plan brought to you by those two ravishingly good looking angels—is a classic deus ex machina. And a huge one at that. As H.G. Wells himself said regarding the deus ex machina, “If anything is possible, then nothing is interesting.” Well, with God, anything can happen. But you know what? Anything can happen in fiction, too. God could’ve been in this sci-fi story without it having to be a deus ex machina; God can be in any science fiction story as long as it’s structured properly. Ah, there’s the rub. Structure. You see, deus ex machinas come in all shapes and sizes. Some are annoying. Others are downright destructive. The annoying ones tend to be one or two steps beyond the interior logic of the narrative; but the devastating ones literally transform the inherent structure of the story—and that’s exactly what RDM & Co. did to BSG. They destroyed their own story. If you don’t quite yet see what I mean, well, believe me, you’re not alone because I know damn well that RDM & Co. are absolutely clueless. This is why I’m going to address the mini-lecture to them since they’re the ones who are responsible for this fiasco. Note to BSG writing staff: ever heard of a character story? Well, if you haven’t, then I suggest you watch your own TV show for the last four seasons up until the very last hour of the finale—because that’s exactly what you guys had been writing up until God showed up to save the day. Ever heard of an idea story? Hint: watch the last hour of the finale that you wretched souls vomited upon us and that is precisely what an idea story is. These are two different story forms which make completely different demands upon character and plot—but don’t take my word for it. Orson Scott Card elucidated upon these story types in his how-to book, Characters & Viewpoint. BSG’s main characters were fully realized, breathing human beings—steeped in dire conflict, both internally and externally, all of whom were suffused with the desire and a willingness to change not only their station in life, but themselves. Ergo: a character story. An idea story is cut from a different cloth. It is meant to emphasize an idea, not a character or characters—in fact, the idea itself is the main character, and everyone else its subject. The characters serve as the idea’s vehicle, its agent. They must act on its behalf. Sure, the characters are determined; sure, they are idiosyncratic, but they are also two-dimensional because the idea itself must be fully explored. Characters following God’s master plan is a perfect idea story. In fact, characters following any master plan is an idea story. Remember Isaac Asimov? He wrote idea stories. He wrote great ones, like, say, the Foundation series. Psychohistory was the idea. Psychohistory was the main character. Psychohistory was also a plan; a plan of cosmic reach, of God-like reach, sweeping across the ages to help mitigate the devastating effects of the fall of the Galactic Empire. The key here is not that Asimov wrote a cool idea story. The key is that he constructed the story in a manner so as to inform the reader that it was an idea story. This is what competent writers do. To wit: Asimov introduces Hari Seldon (the inventor of psychohistory) and then unceremoniously leaves him behind. Because, you know, there’s a story to tell, and it sure ain’t about Hari. The narrative leaps forward in time in order to prove out the progress of the plan. New characters are introduced while previous ones fade away. It becomes pretty clear fairly quickly that Asimov doesn’t want you to get attached to his characters—he wants you to get attached to his idea. When he actually does spend some time with his characters they are necessarily clever and resourceful, but they are also necessarily two-dimensional (determined with a goal). They are never ever a threat to upstage the much more fascinating and complex main character of psychohistory. So yes: fiction is the art of the lie, but you have to be upfront and honest about the nature of your lie; and once you have the reader’s (or audience’s) trust, you are then honor-bound to hold true to the story’s form—all the way through to its end. Let me repeat: THE STORY MUST HOLD TRUE TO ITS FORM ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO ITS END. And that’s where BSG blew it. By radically—and suddenly—shifting the story’s emphasis from character to idea RDM & Co. not only violated the tacit agreement between storyteller and fan, but they exploded the internal engine that had been propelling BSG forward since its inception: its characters. This is not only a betrayal to the fans, mind you. This is a betrayal to the art of fiction. Look, the hard truth about fiction is this: form follows emphasis, yes; but expectation follows form. Character stories are resolved by their main characters—they themselves are the agents of their own change. Period. That’s the expectation. End of story. Therefore, I watched with boiling blood as some of the most fully realized sci-fi characters of all time, characters that I surely thought were on the verge of determining their own fate, suddenly became subservient to God’s master plan. Suddenly all their free will coagulated into an ugly red herring. All their angst, inner conflict and hard decision making suddenly lost all relevant meaning—the meaning that comes when a character affects change and he/she is ultimately the one who is responsible for it. Folks, what I watched wasn’t the art of creating fiction. What I watched was the art of dismantling it. As the final hour excruciatingly limped towards its end, one unbelievable plot point proceeded to follow the next: the centurions departed to find their own destiny; everyone disavowed technology; everyone spread out over the globe so they could starve to death. It was surreal. If BSG had still been an inkling of its former self, those 3 key decisions alone would have fueled enough conflict to justify 3 more seasons of the show. Instead, our tragically hollowed out characters effortlessly made their decisions and everyone else didn’t even blink; they simply followed en masse, like a hive mind, or worker bees, dutifully serving the (cockamamie) plan. Then it got worse. The story launched itself 150,000 years into the future. It was clumsy and jarring, but really, what else were the writers supposed to do? They had an idea story on their hands, and like Asimov’s Foundation series, they had to jump the narrative forward in order to show the fruit of God’s labor. Which is us, of course. We are the fruit of God’s labor, and that leaves us with one last nugget to choke on: Hera. Ah, yes, precious Hera. She is our mitochondrial Eve. She was half human and half Cylon—and that has truly been our salvation, has it not? For let’s not forget, the Cylon god proved to be the one true God. And while we, as Hera’s descendants, have developed throughout the ages, building vast empires and constructing tall cities, we have obviously learned to embrace our inner machine, and in so doing, we have embraced the grace of God. For today, God is worshipped by over 2 billion people. Wow. Maybe it’s time for the centurions to come back, don’t you think? We could all sing “Kumbaya.” Let me move on. Say what you will about Battlestar Galactica, whether you want to marvel at its gritty realism, its amazing action sequences, special effects, its top-notch acting and directing, or its inspired musical score—the heart and soul of the show was its characters. Yet no longer. Just like Kara, their very souls have popped out of existence, fully dissipated within the skeletal remains of a once potent character story. For what we have left is nothing more than an empty grasp of lost possibilities, that never-ending guessing game of the coulda and shoulda beens. Because in fiction, there’s a good way to lie and there’s a bad way to lie, and if you ask me, someone ought to develop a polygraph test for the Ronald D. Moores of the world—to keep writers like him honest—so we can keep vivid and fully realized characters true to form, to watch them live and die in the manner by which their world was built: in character.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:43 p.m. CST

    Still no one is actually giving an example of what god supposedly did?

    by Rebel Scumb

    aside from the fact that god never actually appears, we get only the characters interpration of what 'god' is or wants, but then at the end in NYC, we can be left to wonder once again if any of those beliefs were true anyways.

  • March 19, 2011, 8:44 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Actually there are people in this talkback, and in many others, arguing exactly that. That it was shoehorned in in the finale episode.

  • Apparently as Jamie Bamber's wife.

  • March 19, 2011, 9:16 p.m. CST

    I really think if you hated the ending

    by oisin5199

    you're a cynical fuck. So what, you expected there to be a battle to the death between humans and cylons until no one was left alive? Maybe you've all played too many video games. I just don't understand how, when the entire arc of the series was Cylons and humans figuring out their own shit - yes, fighting each other, but ultimately both questing to be better, that ending it with a reconciliation and a mutual understanding wasn't the only way that would have made sense and paid respect to the characters and their journey. After all that suffering, having a show present an incredibly earned ray of hope was pretty gratifying. President Baltar, your complaints, while articulate, don't make any sense. You haven't given any evidence that these characters weren't active agents in their own destiny. I just don't see how things somehow shifted at the end. I don't see how the characters were betrayed. If anything, that ending served them better than a giant battle. When you've survived so much war and terror, the opportunity to lay down arms (and yes, technology) would have been a relief. It's a fantasy, but who wouldn't want to break the cycle for an opportunity to start anew? It's a transformation. That's what we strive for as humans. rebel scumb is right, there's no claim here about what God actually did. God is not a plot factor, despite what all these whiners say. The show implied that perhaps, even when we make the decisions about our destinies (and those decisions were all human, all the way), that maybe divine forces have nudged us in certain ways. Isn't that the case with most religious beliefs? Despite protests to the contrary, I think 'God did it' whiners are simply anti-religious and can't handle the fact that the show had that kind of ethos. I think those of you who can't handle the idea that larger forces may exist must be incredible egotists who think the universe begins and ends with them. Not that there's anything wrong with atheism. It's just when atheists act like douchebags towards the very idea of religious belief, that they're a problem. And even the show itself was never fully presenting a religious point of view. It always made us question whether these religious beliefs are helpful or harmful. In-head 6 didn't always have the best interest of the humans in mind, did she? That's what made the show work so well - it presented many sides to a question and made the viewer uncomfortable to fully support any one side. So much of the show was about belief and its consequences. And the finale served that perfectly.

  • March 19, 2011, 9:37 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    A very well written response. And thanks for backing me up. Someone said earlier that the ending to the conflict was "too easy" I don't think there was anything easy about it at all. The fleet, and the people and cylons in it were on their last legs. The galactica was one jump away from literally coming apart at the seams, their resources were tapped out, they lost nearly half of the people that they started out with in the miniseries, which was barely anyone to begin with. Their government and social structure, was barely being held together throughout the series, and was on the brink of breaking altogether. The stakes were such that the journey would not have continued regardless of the outcome of the battle at the colony, because of how bad things had gotten. Maybe the sacrifice of technology is hard to swallow, but I felt the show had earned my suspension of disbelief on that. They're society had gone to ruin, they'd been surrounded by war and strife for years. To suddenly have a vast planet, blue skies, green grass, the paradise they were looking for suddenly a reality, I can believe that people would want a clean slate.

  • March 19, 2011, 9:46 p.m. CST

    Well said

    by _Venkman

  • March 19, 2011, 10:02 p.m. CST


    by _Venkman

    I've thought the samething but if the BSG is still out there its still about to fall to pieces. And the cylons will have a 50k year head start on technology.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:02 p.m. CST

    Sorry much more than 50k years

    by _Venkman

  • March 19, 2011, 10:06 p.m. CST

    Galactica 1980

    by lv_426

    I always thought that a dark and serious minded re-imagining of Galactica 1980 would be interesting to do now as a spin-off to BSG. Remember, there were those Cylon Centurions that took a basestar and went off into the far reaches of space near the end of the finale. They were set free by the humanoid Cylons and the Colonials. Wouldn't it be kinda cool if those freed Centurions came back to Earth in the present day? Another possible scenario is that we never truly know for sure what happened to any remaining survivors or rebels left on the 12 Colonies after the war. Whose to say that some of the Cylons didn't return after the exodus of New Caprica and either oppressed or merged with whatever humans were left? Or maybe another fleet formed from survivors and went off to start a new colony, one completely separate from Galactica's fleet and Earth? Any of these elements could be fun to explore, either as a coming to Earth in our present day, or a spin-off set in the ancient days.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:33 p.m. CST

    Only thing I disliked immensely About BSG Ending..

    by FreeBeer

    ..Was that EVERYONE decided to get rid of all their technology. Would never, ever happen, I would have prefered if, along with the Centurions being given their own ship, that a portion of the fleet that did not want to revert to a more primitive way of life were also given a ship so that they could go off in search for a new home. Not only would this have made much, much more sense, but it would allowed for the possibility of BSG spin offs rather than prequels. You could have a series following these guys that decide to go out into space in search of a home where there could rebuild their civilisation, intercut with the lives of the people that remained on Earth, comparing each of their struggles. Or you could set the series way into the future, futhur into OUR future, and have an advanced race of humans returning to our planet. That would have been brilliant. The God thing never struck me a illogical in the universe of the show, but the fact that every single person chose to stay on Earth still bugs the hell out of me.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:34 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    I'd thought of that to, and would definitely be able to get behind a series about that. If they did the dark reimagining of galactica 1980 (or I guess it would be galactica 2012 now or something). Since they established the whole cycle of time stuff in the series already, you could even just have that UN or the US or whatever builds earth's first space battleship and calls it the battlestar galactica, and it would be about defending the earth from the centurions Although I would hope they would keep the shades of grey elements from BSG, maybe on earth we create our own version of the cylons which turn against us, as hinted at in daybreak, but the centurions from BSG 200,000 years ago come back, now more fully evolved, or even skinjobs now to help the humans, or something. Or show the robot enslavement on earth, and make it about them fighting for freedom, since we know that happened on BSG before the first war, but didn't actually see it.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:37 p.m. CST

    freebeer, that's admittedly a conceit. It didn't bother me personally...

    by Rebel Scumb

    but thats a criticism of the finale I can understand why it would bug people. To me its just one of those things that makes sense cinematically, if not necessarily logically.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:40 p.m. CST

    This is completely unrelated, but...

    by Rebel Scumb

    that banner ad for the GI JOE viper soldier figure is about 100 times cooler than anything that appeared in that bad GI JOE movie a few years ago.

  • March 19, 2011, 10:49 p.m. CST

    Ron Moore's betrayal of his Battlestar Galactica promises.

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    Ron Moore’s Goals: To understand the fall of BSG, one must examine it both in terms of more general goals for good SF, and the stated goals of the head writer and executive producer, Ronald D. Moore. The ending failed by both my standards (which you may or may not care about) but also his. Moore began the journey by laying out a manifesto of how he wanted to change TV SF. He wrote an essay about Naturalistic science fiction where he outlined some great goals and promises, which I will summarize here, in a slightly different order. -Avoiding SF clichés like time travel, mind control, god-like powers, and technobabble. -Keeping the science real. -Strong, real characters, avoiding the stereotypes of older TV SF. The show should be about them, not the hardware. -A new visual and editing style unlike what has come before, with a focus on realism. Over time he expanded, modified and sometimes intentionally broke these rules. He allowed the ships to make sound in space after vowing they would not. He eschewed aliens in general. He increased his focus on characters, saying that his mantra in concluding the show was “it’s the characters, stupid.” Link to Moore's Manifesto titled, Battlestar Galactica: Naturalistic Science Fiction or Taking the Opera out of Space Opera Ron Moore’s Failures of Naturalistic Science Fiction in Battlestar Galactica: -The confirmation/revelation of an intervening god as the driving force behind events -The use of that god to resolve large numbers of major plot points. -A number of significant scientific mistakes on major plot points, including: 1. Twisting the whole story to fit a completely wrong idea of what Mitochondrial Eve is. 2. To support that concept, an impossible-to-credit political shift among the characters. 3. The use of concepts from Intelligent Design to resolve plot issues. -The introduction of the nonsense idea of “collective unconscious” to explain cultural similarities. -The use of “big secrets” to dominate what was supposed to be a character-driven story. -Removing all connection to our reality by trying to build a poorly constructed one. -Mistakes, one of them major and never corrected, which misled the audience.

  • March 19, 2011, 11:24 p.m. CST

    Isn't that just a cut and paste from the smokingrobot blogrant thing?

    by Rebel Scumb

    Are you just smokingrobot with a new name, or just copy/pasting the same info? Either way I don't really see how it matters. He achieved most or all of what is set out in the manifesto, and the show, like all art evolved over time. There's nothing in there saying it wouldn't tackle issues of religon, or have any sort of destiny or higher power at work. The show remained character based, but also had an ongoing big picture plot, but that was also true since the miniseries, and being character oriented, and also having big storylines, and ongoing mystery elements are not mutually exclusive. Ultimately it lead to a story that Ron Moore was deeply proud of. In fact he actually breaks down into tears on the commentary for the daybreak extended edition when describing his happiness with how the show turned out, and the finales final product. The majority of people in this talkback seem to have enjoyed it. and what's wrong with the concept of collective unconscious? A phenomena of great interest to many, with interesting evidence to support the idea of it. Even if its something that does not really exist (there's no real way of knowing for sure), it certainly makes for interesting storytelling. Sciencefiction will never be completely accurate to sciencefact, so anyone looking for that shouldn't hold their breath, since there is no example in the world of a scifi show/book/movie that was wholly scientifically accurate. The manifesto was a starting point, it was something that was just meant to show the network what kind of show it would be. As a writer ultimately he had to follow what he felt was best for the story regardless of what his initial plan was, or what you would find so deeply offensive. I still see no evidence of what god supposedly did.

  • March 20, 2011, 12:24 a.m. CST

    God resurrected Kara Thrace, God made Kara Thrace disappear.

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    In-head Six became retconned as an angel, so via this retcon, God sent an angel to influence Baltar towards his ends. Following said retcon, God sent In-Head Baltar to Six, to influence her towards his ends. If we keep the retcon up: God gave visions to Kara Thrace that were seen as flashbacks in Season 4. God sent Kara Thrace Back in time to destroy a planet. God gave Roslin visions (not the drugs, now that God's agents are revealed to be influencing events via the 4th season retcon). God did it. His agents, his visions, his control of the universe. God did it. By the way, "God did it" is a shorthand used by writers and those who have studied literature and the abuse of plot devices. Follow the URL for an example of a successful and acclaimed writer hating the BSG finale and even using the words "God did it." Read it and learn.

  • March 20, 2011, 12:29 a.m. CST

    Rebel scumb, your continued efforts here have now reached apologist levels.

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

    You had temporary credibility and I retracted the apologist label. But after reading subsequent posts it is clear you have an apologist point of view. Fanbois apologist. At least that's the way I see it and the devil on my shoulder agrees. See what I did?

  • When a bridge falls, a troll becomes homeless.

  • March 20, 2011, 4:39 a.m. CST

    i think a lot of us always thought that

    by JAMF

    since they'd be arriving on earth and they all have greek/roman names and stuff that they'd settle down on earth and form a techno utopia called atlantis and eventually disappear leaving nothing much behind but stories. its the fact that they landed on a primitive earth and started shagging cavemen that really annoyed me i think. what a load of bollocks. then to see ron at the end reading some magazine like stephen king or something? fuck off ron.

  • Y'all are going to battle back and forth over this until the end of time. That, is all the win that Ron D. Moore and co will ever need :)

  • March 20, 2011, 7:30 a.m. CST

    Kara dissappearing didn't effect anything though...

    by Rebel Scumb

    Just meant she wouldn't be around. As for her resurrection, we don't really know what happened. If god was her father, or if she herself was angel after the resurrection. I was talking to a girl on tuesday at a concert who thought Kara was resurrected by the resurrection technology created by the final 5 before leaving earth. Personally I see her as the space-girl-jesus of this story, inwhich case it was always her destiny to die and be risen from the dead, and then ascend when her work was done. Kara thrace's special destiny was also hinted at since 1x08 'flesh and bone'. Ultimately though, Kara was a main character on the show, and Kara was the one who figured out, using human logic and problem solving, and gut instinct to use the song notes as the coordinates. The resurrection didn't happen in the finale. Interestingly enough, for all the 'god did it' complaints, you don't seem to have a problem with Roslin having visions of leoben before he showed up -Leoben knowing Kara's past and future -Kara painting the maelstrom/supernova since childhood -the temple of five being found the exact day the supernova it depicts happens to occur -all along the watchtower being heard by the final 5 somehow -Diana transporting to some mystical vision of the final 5, which the final 5 did not create -Baltar seeing visions of the operahouse on Kobol, and knowing about Hera before he learned about Hera -baltar projecting himself to other places to escape -robots and humans conceiving a baby together, but only if they are inlove -the tomb of athena transporting them to a stonehenge room with star maps and the myriad of other fantastical elements that occurred throughout the show. Were you expecting the finale to provide some all encompassing science fact reason that would provide a logical, realistic explanation for all of these events?

  • March 20, 2011, 7:35 a.m. CST

    And in-head Six being an angel isn't a retcon

    by Rebel Scumb

    If you watch the series again with the knowledge that that is what she is, everything makes a lot more sense then it did before. We knew from mid season 2 that she was not a cylon chip, and we also knew Baltar wasn't simply crazy as the things she told him always turned out to be correct, things he couldn't possibly know. Ergo if its not one of those 2 things, there has to be a third option. If neither cylon then human, then some third party. Obviously advanced enough to appear within Baltars mind. An advanced being. Which they refered to as angels. For your scifact edification, since BSG took place before our current civilization, you could simply say that Angels are the name of an advanced alien race. and stories about them from baltars expirence were passed down over time and formed the basis for the biblical angels we know of.

  • March 20, 2011, 7:50 a.m. CST

    I don't apologize, as I've done nothing wrong.

    by Rebel Scumb

    You on the other hand have taken the time to derail this thread, which isn't even about BSG, but an entirely new show, that none of us have even seen. You're angy about the end to BSG. That's great. I get the impression you're probably angry about a lot of things in life. I'm sorry if this is your only outlet, but its annoying for the rest of us, that every time any article is posted with even the most basic connection to BSG or LOST, someone like yourself, or yourself has to come along go through the same tired 'god did it' rants about the ending. Posting the SAME smoking robot article TWICE in this same talkback. Anyone who cares to read it has read it. I'm not sure if you get paid for every reference you post to it, the way AICN gets paid every time they post an amazon link, but do you really think anyone is going to read that blog and think "holy frak, I use to love the ending of BSG, but after reading this, its so smart, I now realize the ending was terrible! I'm so glad that talkback guy nagged me over and over to read it, so I can now have the "correct" opinion about BSG" Because if you think that, you are delusional. And if you think ANYTHING other than that. You are quite simply wasting a lot of your own, and other peoples time. If you don't like a show, or feel burned by the ending, then my suggestion would be to find a new show, that you actually like. At the very least save your contempt for it for an actual BSG talkback, where its relevant. You want to stick it to Ron Moore? Don't watch 17th Precinct, don't buy the dvds, don't participate in the talkbacks for it. Vote with your time and money. Ask yourself "how much time have I spent, complaining about a tv show episode from 2 years ago, to a bunch of people who don't agree, in an online discussion that was not even about that tv show?" Then imagine using that same time, for just about anything else. Life is short, and any of us could die at any moment. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty sure at that point, our consciousness, who we are blinks out of existence forever. Why waste any of what short life we have fixated on something that is over and done with, and so clearly gives you so much frustration? I'm even saying to do anything ambitious like climb a mountain, or cure cancer with that time. Just use it to watch a show you actually like.

  • March 20, 2011, 7:52 a.m. CST

    "When a bridge falls, a troll becomes homeless"

    by Rebel Scumb

    Well we wouldn't want you to become homeless evil archer.

  • March 20, 2011, 7:56 a.m. CST

    the zillabeast strikes back... (+ jamf)

    by Rebel Scumb

    Zillabeast: Agreed. The best art always polarizes people. Its challenging and divides opinions Jamf: The atlantis ending you propose would definitely have been cool. I would of been completely fine with that. And I suppose there's nothing specifically saying that didn't also happen. I'd be able to get onboard with a 'battlestar: Atlantis" spin off show. The caveman ending doesn't bother me, but that would of been good also, and the greek thing you mentioned would also make that work really well.

  • Because I disagree with your smokingrobot/god did it opinion? Does this apply to anyone who disagrees with you? They are an apologist? Or just me specifically? Personally I think I seem like a weird target for all this venom. Afterall I admittedly only liked at best about 60% of the BSG series when it originally aired, and deciding to give it another chance now give it a 98%. 'The Plan' movie was awful though, I couldn't even sit through all of it a second time. I liked Razor a lot though.

  • March 20, 2011, 8:36 a.m. CST

    Bible stories

    by Thall_Joben

    I can handle the endings of both Lost and Battlestar but the bible is the biggest pile of nonsense I ever read. Anyone who takes that stuff literally is ill educated at best, an idiot a worst. God has no place in my universe or my shows, they're remarkable enough without stirring that kind of rubbish into the mix. Voltaire put it best: "As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities."

  • March 20, 2011, 10:03 a.m. CST

    Its all fun and games until God actually shows up...

    by tailhook

    at which point you've committed the worst unforgiveable sin and shall be sent to the hell. Personally, I thought the resolution to BSG was just fine.. and at the least they had the good sense to realize when their BS sessions were going just a bit too far and pulled it back in for a landing and a decent resolution. Lost, on the other hand, reveled in its BS sessions and led you on to think they meant something, and all the finale did was prove without a shadow of a doubt that they didn't mean a damn thing. BSG will have legs over time and is a story many people will come back to or discover, a lot like B5. Lost, however, will fade into a distant memory followed shortly by, "people really got into all this? It doesn't mean anything."

  • March 20, 2011, 10:12 a.m. CST

    What is really crazy...

    by Rebel Scumb

    is that Ron Moore originally toyed with ending season 1 with Baltar hearing music in the distance after crashing on Kobol, following it to a cave and entering. Finding Dirk benedict inside listening to Jimmy Hendrix records. Dirk Benedict "Hey man, you like this music?" Baltar "Yeah... who are you?" Dirk Benedict "I'm God" I wonder how THAT would of been recieved.

  • March 20, 2011, 10:36 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by FreeBeer

    Ha ha, I think he prob said that somewhat tongue in cheek. Last thing I'll say is I loved the ending, but wished some of the human fleet had followed a destiny elsewhere in the galaxy along with the Centurians, just so we could have sequels and spin offs to BSG rather than prequels. BSG Blood & Chrome might be awesome, but just won't be all that interesting because we know whats going to happen. It would have changed the impact of the ending one bit, but it would have made a shy bit more sense, and we could have endless possabilities for sequel series or even theatrical movies!

  • March 20, 2011, 10:53 a.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Well it was mentioned in the podcast back when the season 1 finale aired. He said that was the original ending he came up with, and he had no idea how he would resolve it in season 2. He showed that version of the script to the other writers on the show, and most of them thought it was crazy but a few really liked it. But he did another rewrite and came up with the ending that actually happened. While I admire the audacity and craziness of that ending, I agree that it would of been pretty hard to start season 2 with any sort of continuation from that that would of been satisfying. Cool though that the all along the watchtower idea did eventually get used though.

  • March 20, 2011, 3:19 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

  • March 20, 2011, 8:49 p.m. CST

    Morales was on NYPD BLUE

    by Himbo

    No mention in article that he played the Lieutenant there. He was Andy Sipowicz's boss, and pretty good too. Now THAT would be a casting dream. Get Dennis Franz in for one episode to play an Andy Sipowicz character, and I'll commit a Tivo season pass.

  • March 21, 2011, 1:10 a.m. CST


    by Darklighter

    You nerds are such fuckin pussies. The end of Lost and Galactica was God, the Almighty....the creator of Heaven and Earth of all that is seen and unseen. Stop nerding it up with oh he might just be a Q or a super intelligent alien or blah blah blah. It's THE God! The Christian Judeo/Muslim guy. ACCEPT IT! Why are you fuckin losers afraid of God so much? Get over it. And you Atheists like Rebel Scum who have to go on a ten minute diatribe about how you're so above and beyond people that do believe in God PUHHHHHLease!! Get over yourself will ya? You don't believe.....Congratulations! Stop pattin yourself on the back about how much smarter you are than everyone else. We're all REALLY impressed with how enlightened you are. It must be nice to have the entire Universe figured out. SHEESH!!!

  • March 21, 2011, 6:23 a.m. CST


    by tailhook

    You said a lot more about yourself in that little rant of yours than anyone else. Nice to see Jesus freaks do come here and nice to see you out yourself as one. As per me, could care less about the god stuff, BSG ending worked, Lost ending didn't. It really is as simple as that.

  • March 21, 2011, 8:33 a.m. CST


    by theGoldbergV

    Agree completely. I have no issue with either series going down the religion path. Thats kinda what all sci-fi SHOULD do at some point. Its that on LOST it was used right at the end to cover for the absence of an ending. On BSG it was at least signposted from the beginning and the characters still had freewill, it was just that God (remember it does't like that name) had a guiding influence. I like that the ending of BSG can be read as "if God does exist, we have no way of understanding him/it". For me, thats a great note to end on, especially in a series that dealt with religion from the very first episode. And to people saying the ending of LOST was foreshadowed by the backgammon game in episode 1...are you havin' a laugh?! The whole good versus evil, light/dark thing didn't payoff at all! A man and a boy playing backgammon relates to the sideways purgatory universe about as well as a statue of a fertility god relates to the Others not being able to have children... ie. NOT AT ALL

  • March 21, 2011, 10:49 a.m. CST

    and clearly 'Goddidit' whiners have never seen the original

    by oisin5199

    because that show had way more religious elements - there was practically a Satan character. The whole thing was a Mormon metaphor. So to be surprised that BSG has some questions about God in it just shows that these people are morons who wanted a different show. Try Stargate. And for the last time. In head 6 being an angel is NOT NOT NOT a retcon. What part of 'I am an angel from God' in the first season did you not get??!

  • March 21, 2011, 10:58 a.m. CST

    Lost's ending only didn't work

    by oisin5199

    from a plot standpoint. I agree with you there. But there's something to be said about the character resolution. It's like when you wake up from a really intense dream and you're still worrying about all those things that happened in that dream, and it takes a while to realize, 'oh shit, what am I worried about, that was just a dream.' The characters woke up to what really mattered - the island, the mysteries, none of that shit mattered. It was their relationships and the bettering of their souls that ultimately mattered. That was certainly a theme from the beginning - from the backgammon game to Jacob's list, and on and on. The game didn't pay off in terms of plot, but it did in terms of theme. Was all this a cop-out, a cheat, a way to back out of an over-convoluted 5 season plot structure? Sure. But it's a ballsy cheat and one that did pay off for the characters and our investment in their emotional journey. It's kinda metaphorical for death. At the end of it all, are you going to hang on to all your shit (and all the shit you haven't figured out) and stay in purgatory or are you going to just let it all go and move on? Or to put it in terms some of you can understand, do you go on and on about the ending of a show from several years ago, or do you let it go and move on? Get out of your sideways universe, goddidit whiners. We're all waiting for you in the church!

  • March 21, 2011, 5 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    I don't have the universe figured out, nor do I claim to. In fact I specifically said that I have "no answers" whatsoever to the big mysteries of the universe, there might be a god, gods, or none at all, or something none of us have ever even thought of. All I know is, I don't know. And no one else knows for sure either. Some people devote a small amount or a large amount of their time seeking answers to this, be it through science, religon, or philosophy. Personally I just don't feel its worth the trouble, I choose to focus my energy on immediate palpable things that are within my control. Food, music, sex, good books, friends, family, and all that really basic razamataz! If people want to believe in god, then thats there business. I just take issue with organized religons like the catholic church, which conspire to protect child molestors while promoting toxic ideas that are CONTRARY to the teachings of the messiah they claim to worship. Jesus was anti-organized religon to! And whether he was real or not, and whether he was a normal mortal prophet or something beyond that, it doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, the lessons he preached "acceptance, non-violence, anti-organized religon, forgiveness, humility, anti-consumerism, speaking out against the church (doesn't matter what name you attach to it) hording wealth" are all good righteous ideals I can get behind. But I don't need a church or a religon to do it, and I don't think anyone else does either. Basic human decency should be obvious to everyone that it is beneficial to all. If I offended your beliefs with what I said earlier, I apologize.

  • March 21, 2011, 5:05 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Yeah but the ending of LOST wasn't about the flashsideways, that was just a final farewell to the characters. The conflict on the island, Jack vs the man in black, Hurley stepping up to the plate to be the new leader. Jacks sacrifice was how all that paid off. Lost was 2 shows all the way through, the island story, and the flashback/forward/sideways story. One was a zany serialized mystical/scifi/survival adventure, the other was more of a straight up character drama/comedy. The sideways was an epilogue, essentially a season 7, just that it was intercut with the main island story, which was in keeping with the story telling style that had always been in place. Was the show perfect? No of course not. No show is. But I think Lost was a lot more ambitious then many other shows of its type, especially in terms of its extremely non-linear structure, so I give them points for that.

  • March 21, 2011, 5:09 p.m. CST

    I will say this re: the Lost ending.

    by Rebel Scumb

    I would of prefered the final scene in the church had taken place on a beach, or inside a plane. It could be the exact same scene, same dialogue, music, bright light at the end. But a beach at night with a starry sky overhead, or the inside of oceanic plane with christian sheppard going to the cockpit instead of the church doors would of visually been more inkeeping with the show at least though they used a church that had appeared in earlier episodes of the show. I still stand by the fact though that Lost's problems are in the 5th season, not the finale, and if the 5th season had been handled better, and the temple stuff from the first couple of episodes in season 6 had been stronger and provided a few more answers, then I think more people would of liked the ending.

  • March 21, 2011, 6:19 p.m. CST

    BSG Reunion!

    by Henry Fool

    I think this show has the odds in its favor of being a hit.<br /> <br /> It has a 'Harry Potter' with 'Cops' theme. The Hogwarts Precinct premise merges one of most popular things in pop culture of the last fifteen years with the police show, probably the most popular sub-genre of one hour drama in the history of television.<br /> <br /> I want to watch it because Ron Moore ran 'Galactica' and 'Caprica' and also worked on 'Carnivale'. Those are three shows that I love. And I can't wait to see all those actors reunite. I hope they add more 'Caprica' vets like Polly Walker or Alessandra Torresani.<br /> <br /> The topic of how religion is portrayed in Sci-Fi is an interesting one. I think people are contemptuous of religious elements being stuck in sci-fi shows because, at least in America, we pretty much have Christianity shoved down our throats. Everything in our media is censored to avoid upsetting Christians too much and they love to let you know when you've said something that offends them.<br /> <br /> But the whole Angel/Six aspect of Galactica is supported by the show from the beginning. We knew when they said they were heading towards a planet called Earth that this mythology was meant to collide with ours in a meaningful way. I really enjoyed the final episode of Galactica. I'd give it a B+. But I also thought it was pretty bourgeois. I mean, giving up all technology just to settle down and live like cavemen is something only someone that comes from a society that's been saturated with unnecessary technology would think of. Imagine telling developing third world nations that they're better off without technology. They'd laugh in your face while gratefully getting their vaccinations and other things we take completely for granted.<br /> <br /> I was surprised that the finale completely negated the possibility of a spin-off film franchise. Would they really crash all their ships into the sun? Wouldn't they have made repairs then headed back out to search for survivors on the colonies and New Caprica? Like I said, I enjoyed the Galactica finale but, upon careful analysis, it really doesn't make much sense.<br /> <br /> Just the same I prefer my finales to be in the vein of Galactica which, like "Six Feet Under", made a daring stab at giving real closure to the show. I prefer those type of finales to that of "Sopranos" or "Buffy", which were solid endings but kind of bugged me by having their final moments seem up in the air.<br /> <br /> Anyone who hates the way religious issues are portrayed in American shows should check out the pilot episode of "Afterlife" a BBC series which starred The Walking Dead's Andrew Lincoln. American shows tend to focus on Heaven and Hell. But Europeans are much more grey about the spirit world. The video game 'Limbo' gives a better representation of how Europeans view the afterlife than any American TV series I can think of.

  • Is it going to be gritty realism style like BSG, or fantastical? Or something else? Will there be an ongoing story with big arcs, or is it going to be a crime of the week procedural It would be cool if it was somethng like Dexter where its a mishmash of both show formats, but with magic!

  • March 21, 2011, 6:36 p.m. CST

    Rebel Scumb

    by theGoldbergV

    Season 5 of LOST was my favourite season as I was watching it. Looking back on it now, its probably the most pointless season. They used the time travel device to retcon a few things, a learnt nothing new about dharma, and the finale just totally assasinated Juliet's character. The warning signs were all there. My problem with how the show ended was you're right, it was always about 2 stories, the on-island mystery and the flash[whatevers]. In season 6, the on-Island story is terrible, a series of people walking about and going over here and there and not learning very much and no one really taking charge of anything. The sideways were more interesting to a certain extent, but the resolution really annoyed me. Not from a faith/athiest point of view, but because its a narrative cheat. At the end of season 5 we are left with a few possibilities, either the bomb goes off and resets the timeline, or...they all die. Season 6 starts and we're given the scenario that the Island is sunk, that the characters are all back on the plane and that time SEEMS to have reset. To then tease for a whole season as to what this universe is, only for it to be explained in the final scene with 3 lines of dialogue is just unsatisfying. I'm left with loads of contradictions, bits of season 6 that make no sense and are just there to tease the audience into thinking there's a more complicated story being told then there actually is. Why is the Island sunk in purgatary land? Its the only scene in the whole series(!) that takes place outside of a character's viewpoint and it exists for no other reason that to mislead the audience and get them theorizing on "what it all means". Its a kind of a great metaphor for the whole series, interesting set-up, no payoff. BTW I really like your idea about the final scene taking place on the beach. Its my biggest gripe with the resolution to the sideways that it has nothing to do with the Island. I agree that LOST had ambition beyond normal TV fare, but thats all the credit it deserves

  • March 21, 2011, 8:25 p.m. CST

    Well I meant that they were still dead all along...

    by Rebel Scumb

    but would literally just walk over a hill from the concert and "magically" be back on the island beach" since the LA X world was just a construct anyways. goldbergv: My issues with season 5 were thus: -Sloppy continuity with Jeremy Bentham/Widmore/Rousseau's backstories, as well as getting the age of a lot of characters wrong -Messing up the motivations of a lot of characters, especially the Oceanic 6 and their reasons for reasons for returning to the island. Jack and sayid felt way off. Why didn't Kate or anyone care about saving Sawyer/Juliet etc. -Time travel: in and of itself I dont have a problem with it, but at one point it seemed like time travel was going to be the rosetta stone for many of the big mysteries: whispers, adam & eve, Jacob, etc. But ultimately it turns out Richard/widmore/Ben etc knew just as little about time travel as Locke/Sawyer -In general the visual flare of the show seemed less impressive than usual. More like a normal tv show, and less like the big budget move look they usually pulled off. Especially in season 4. -Unsatisfying payoff to the flashforward stories from season 4. These could of been handled a lot better. Those stories all felt omnious and interesting in season 4, but its like the writers just lost interest with them, which would be fine if they came back to the island in the first 1-2 episodes, but they stretched it out a lot longer. -Dharma Barracks/New Otherton: This may just be my personal preference, but I find the show always felt less interesting when it spent too much time in the barracks. Dharma/the barracks were always more interesting in small doses. That's my personal take on it. I think the season should of started with Jack in full faith in the island mode that he was in season 6. I think part of the problem with the series as a whole is there is one too many beats in the story. After the reveal of Locke in the coffin, and Jack's resolution to "bring them all back" the show should really be moving into the endgame of the series. They should of gone back, and arrived in present day, reunited with sawyer and the rest. Something bad happened to them as a result of the island moving, but not time jumps. And then it should of gone right into the man in black stuff. -To much focus

  • March 21, 2011, 9:45 p.m. CST

    It could of been better

    by Rebel Scumb

    I sort of see it that the Egyptians we never saw were sort of like Dharma, meddling with all sorts of properties on the island. But with alchemy instead of science. But I think all the well of light, and whatnot would of all worked better if they had tied it into the 'magic box' and why the temple was signifigant. If the purpose of the others was to guard the source, keep it safe, if everyone who didn't make Jacob's List of good people (those worthy to be the others) were the ones vulnerable to being claimed by the monster sickness, then all of their willingness to kill people would make more sense to. I also think maybe it would of been better if the candidates were not the 815ers, but all the special characters who have been on the show. Myles, Hurley, Walt, Charlotte Malkin (not hot redhead Charlotte lewis), etc.