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The Best Show On TV Is Not At Comic-Con And It Returns Tonight!! Herc Loves MAD MEN 4.1!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Welcome to my drunkest post ever.
I came to Comic-Con at the last minute. There are hot Comic-Con girls in the hotel room. I accidentally stabbed a guy in Hall H.
Quite some time ago I took extensive notes on the “Mad Men” fourth-season premiere, full of exciting spoilers.
You will know this. “Mad Men” loses no steam as it launches its latest (no doubt Emmy-winning) season.
* Season four of Mad Men starts with Don staring at a steno pad.
* At episode’s end, we learn very specifically WHEN we are in 4.1. And the starting place does not follow pattern.
* 4.1 is very light on Joan and and Lane story.
* 4.1 does NOT update us on what's become of those who failed to make the jump to Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce. We do not learn what Ken Cosgrove, Sal Romano, Paul Kinsey, Duck Phillps, Freddy Rumson are up to.
* Trudy Campbell is wholly absent this week from the “Mad Men” community.
* Roger Sterling’s wit remains one of the best reasons to tune in. Steel yourself for some laugh-out-loud cracks in the first act,
* As revealed in EW, SCDPryce has taken up residence in the Time & Life Building, which I believe is NOT on Madison Avenue.
* The episode does not begin in the new SCDP offices. The first words spoken in the episode are "Who is Don Draper?"
*4.1 covers a LOT of story.
10 p.m. Sunday. AMC.
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I loved Abed's impression of the Don in Community. Mad Men is great... I thought it was boring, but then I grew up. You don't need serial killers to have great TV. Go figure.
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Or Dick Whitman or as I think of him the Most awesomest Pussy Pulling Machine on TV.
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that statement is proof of being wildly drunk.
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You should give Starz' miniseries THE PILLARS OF THE EARTH a looksee. First two episodes ran this weekend and so far it is extraordinarily *superb*. Sorta like the old-school epic miniseries we used to have back in the day, with a heapin' dose of ROME-style sex and violence thrown in for good measure.
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Mad Men is slowly getting worse. Hell Mad Men isn't even the best show on it's network, that honor belongs to Breaking Bad.
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Hell no. It's still one of the best shows on TV. Even at it's worst (which is rare) it still beats almost anything else on TV. It may be the best written show since the original Twilight Zone. OK, maybe that's pushing it a little. Most networks would kill to have AMC's record. With the Exception of that God-awful Prisoner remake, I can't think of one really bad show they've done yet.
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And was a little disappointed by them out of context. Must be why Wiener wanted them kept under wraps. I'm sure the show will be quality, though.
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Mad Men is great, makes you yearn for the nostalgic days of dirty ash trays, scotch breath and sexual harrassment, but its not even the best show on that network. Breaking Bad is the best show since the Sopranos. Brian Cranston is a god.
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Mad Men is great, makes you yearn for the nostalgic days of dirty ash trays, scotch breath and sexual harrassment, but its not even the best show on that network. Breaking Bad is the best show since the Sopranos. Brian Cranston is a god.
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At least it is honest about being nothing more than a soap opera.
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It's gonna be really funny going from the trashiest guilty pleasure (True Blood) to Mad Men. I kind of like this balance.
Oh, and as for Dexter, not sure if anyone has posted it yet but that season 5 trailer looks fucking intense. Should be interesting. -
Jul 25, 2010 9:31:19 AM CDT
Did you know that Robert Downey Jr made reference to your attemp
by iamthelastone
During The Avengers panel?
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Jul 25, 2010 9:47:05 AM CDT
Sorry BREAKING BAD fans but this is a MAD MEN Talkback.
by mr. nice gaius
So, you're just going to have to deal with those of us who believe MAD MEN to be the finest program on TV. We all know you don't want to do it...but there it is.
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GET TO KNOW DON DRAPER! Indeed. Well said, sir.
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Jul 25, 2010 9:50:33 AM CDT
Can't wait!!! Still blue balls for Joan and Trudy!
by hollywoodhellraiser
Guess I'm excited, PERIOD!
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fuck you trolls. Mad Men is where its at. Find another hobby, trolling is soooo 2009.
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We live in a world that has both, heh. Mad Men has never come close to reaching the nail-biting intensity of Breaking Bad, but Breaking Bad will never be as suave and cool as Mad Men. Different strengths, and I like that AMC wants to branch out like that. The Walking Dead, however... looks like it'll make both of these shows its bitches, hahah. One can hope, anyway.
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are presumably being paid. No hot girls would attend voluntarily.
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People who compare shows they don't like to soaps are SCHMUCKS. Pure and simple. I'm sorry, since there are no car chases, no shootouts and no aliens it is a soap? Bullshit pal. Bullshit. Question; if no-one was ever murdered in The Sopranos, would that make said show 'a soap'?
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I barely made through the first season and was bored to tears by episode four of season that's when the eject button was pushed on that mess. Brian Cranston is indeed a god...on Malcolm in the Middle, he was fantastic a complete revelation.
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I wasn't sure if you still posted so I figured I was safe in my theft of intellectual property.
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Exactly.
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I thank Mad Men for turning me on to "The Wire". Almost everywhere I would read up on Mad Men someone would eventually bring up The Wire. After a year of this I went and bought The Wire sight unseen. I can definitely see the comparisons as far as the level of writing, they are both the best written TV shows I've ever seen, easily. Mad Men and The Wire, it does not get better than that.
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Jul 25, 2010 12:01:18 PM CDT
Smokes; Check. Bourbon; Check. Where the hell is the ice.
by puto tenax
Best damn show on tube. AMC needs to run more episodes, and Joan needs to bring me my ice.
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No worries. Spreading the message is all that matters.As for posting, I still do on random occassions. But Talkback has really declined in the past year and this place has become rather silly. So, the incentive to "participate" on AICN has been ebbing for awhile now. In fact, I've been looking for a "retirement event" and I thought I would pin my hopes on THE HOBBIT (it would sort of bring me full circle with how I discovered AICN after the first news of LOTR). But much like that film's long awaited greenlight, I remain in limbo.
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You did say "The Best Show On TV" didn't you?
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How anyone could claim that is beyond me. Mad Men exerts all of its effort to try to be cool and suave and period-centric....at the expense of emotional attachment to characters and anything resembling forward momentum. The reason I loved the season 3 finale so, so much was because, finally, SOMETHING drastic happened. Not another meandering, pointless look at Don's affairs. No more Betty being a frustrated, unwilling homemaker. Something major happened, finally, instead of the same crap.
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but i guess when you put thousands of nerds who live in a fantasy world in one building, one of them is likley to stab someone over a star wars argument
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I've seen PLENTY of Mad Men to have an informed opinion. Bringing other shows (Sopranos) into the argument is a huge copout. Mad Men is a soap....there is nothing else to it besides romantic entanglements and period fetishism.
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Try re-reading what I said: "Almost everywhere I would read up on Mad Men someone would eventually bring up The Wire." I read it enough, in enough different websites, magazines, heard it in TV shows, etc., that I bought The Wire sight unseen. It's really not very complicated, and fairly common knowledge, The Wire is critically and generally regarded as one of, if not, the best written TV show in TV history. And Mad Men is generally considered one of, if not the best, the current best written TV shows on. I can easily compare the level of writing on both shows, and will say I am still not sure which one I consider the better of the two. Do you watch either of these two show? But I will say some of Mad Men's story lines could be considered "Soapy" let's be real about this. Still the two best out there, period!
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Madmen is for the 40+ crowd. Enjoy suckas
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If I'm being defensive it is because Mad Men is not a soap. If you've seen as many episodes as you have, and continue to compare it to Dynasty, Days of Our Lives, EastEnders etc...I don't know what to say. Like I said, when folks say 'this show is a soap' it just seems lazy to me. The comparison is invalid. It is a drama. Not a soap. It isn't on all the time, it's not a 'romantic serial', it doesn't have any of the trademarks of a soap -- so why would you compare them?!
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I agree its not comparable to a daytime soap, and i think its unfair to say it is nothing more than that. But i will concede that Mad Men does have soap elements. Wikipedia defines a soap as an ongoing, episodic work of dramatic fiction presented in serial format on television or radio. Mad Men does fit that mold. BUT, it is much more than that. It tackles pathos, sociology, societal mores, period aesthetics and continues to be a captivating slow-burn character study that is as hypnotic as it is stylish. Not to mention, it has created its own immersive universe that transcends a mere period drama, and instead wholly embodies it. Its not for everyone and i can see how it would be off-putting. But Kontarsky, thats an unfair and inaccurate statement. I am 20 and love the show, just as many of my peers do. The period is not an age-determinate, because the show tackles universal themes that point to what makes us human, not 40 and up.
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Seriously, yeah the show doesn't suck hardcore, but it's basically the best show on AMC that isn't called "Breaking Bad". Or the best show on cable that isn't "Breaking Bad", or airing on Showtime, Starz, or FX.
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Yeah, in a sense you can call Mad Men a soap. And yeah, the Sopranos, too. Big Love, Dexter, Battlestar Galactica, Lost and just about any other serialized show you want to throw in. Except The Wire, which can only be called the best show in television history. But yeah, The Wire, too. I mean where does the line get drawn? Back in the whatever decade awhile back, when General Hospital became more about a mad scientist freezing Port Charles and international espionage than who was bedding down who did it somehow stop being a soap? Dark Shadows was a soap and all vampirey and werewolfie and ghosty and even space invadery. Quality wise, yeah, daytime soaps are rarely very good because you know, on every day assembly line production that doesn't really leave time for flourishes even so slight as getting the right take or polishing up a particularly ungainly bit of dialogue. But that's a feature of production schedule, not intent or often even talent. So yeah, Mad Man is a soap. Pretty damn good one, too.
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returning deceased characters, superman suit, orgasmic trailer for season 10..wheres the fucking coverage herc?
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I had to skip past those bullet points. I don't mind certain spoilers from geeky summer movies but I don't want a second of Mad Men spoiled. I'm going to watch it tonight on my brand new HDTV, not reading little spoilers when no one else has had a chance to see the damn show yet! It's only 2 pm on the west coast.
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It would be 2 and half mad men.
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I like the ad that is a statue of She-Hulk. Why not make Mad Men characters?
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. . . are you going to post how much you like Justified in the Mad Men threads, too?
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The sheer strength of THE WIRE lies primarily in the fact that it was a massively conceived story (some have called "Dickensian") that never faltered and was allowed (hello HBO!) to continue to a very satisfying conclusion. (Although, I'm of the opinion that the 5th season was the weakest of the series.) However, due to the sprawl of the story, it lacked serious character depth (with the exception of a few major players and was not prone to letting its characters really chew the scenery. You basically had a large number of well sketched "soldiers" moving about on the battlefield of Baltimore. But everything is relatable and can be mirrored throughout all five seasons. As a result, THE WIRE was truly about story and not about character indulgence. (LOST and the final season of BSG would have been wiser to have followed that excellent example.)Now, that being said, I firmly believe that if DE
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The sheer strength of THE WIRE lies primarily in the fact that it was a massively conceived story (some have called "Dickensian") that never faltered and was allowed (hello HBO!) to continue to a very satisfying conclusion. (Although, I'm of the opinion that the 5th season was the weakest of the series.) However, due to the sprawl of the story, it lacked serious character depth (with the exception of a few major players) and was not prone to letting its characters really chew the scenery. You basically had a large number of well sketched "soldiers" moving about on the battlefield of Baltimore. But everything is relatable and can be mirrored throughout all five seasons. As a result, THE WIRE was truly about story and not about character indulgence. (LOST and the final season of BSG would have been wiser to have followed that excellent example.)Now, that being said, I firmly believe that if DEADWOOD had been allowed to continue to its intended climax, there would be no question as to which show stands above the rest. The writing and acting on DEADWOOD is unlike anything I've ever seen on TV. The fact that it was short-changed by HBO/Milch leaves it tied with THE WIRE for the greatest TV drama I've experienced. And MAD MEN is gaining with each passing season.
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too may fucking cop shows on TV.
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Better because it simply wasn't a "cop show"? Or better because you though it was well written and executed to the very end?Be careful how you answer this question because, chances are, you will be wrong.
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It's my opinion, and I don't care if you have a shrine to the Wire at your house.
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Discuss amongst yourselfs and let me know what the other four are. Mmmmm-kay?
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...it would be 2 and 1/2 more men than you will ever be, RPLocke. You worm.
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Get that stick out of your butt and get a sense of humor.
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Believe me when I say that I'm laughing at you.BTW - why do you keep changing your screenname?
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Go watch your stuffy HBO series.
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Yes a great show. I will be watching it Monday though as I am working now. I will say again, the show is actually about the women, not the men. If you will see, Betty, Peggy and Joan are the ones who are growing. All of the guys are stuck in the 1950s and have no idea what is going on in the world. And the world is passing them buy. Jon Hamm is a great actor, as is all the cast. I wonder if Sal will be back? I hope so.
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Yet another mind-blowing "conversation" with RPLocke (aka skywalkerfamily / lockesbrokenleg). Excuse me while I go watch a pot of water boil.
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Enjoy your low rated series.
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Great. I really feel Mad Men season 3 is almost wholly build-up to this year. Not that it was bad (far from it), but not until it's over do you see its purpose. Here's hoping this is Pete Campbell's year.
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Breaking Bad has destroyed Mad Men in my opinion, but I'm still excited as hell about tonight, and looking forward to discussing MAD MEN.
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Good to see you are still flailing and failing around AICN and just as useless as ever. You never did get on those meds did you baby boi?
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Wow, you're still here too, eh? Nice to see one of the biggest complainers about everything still around.
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at www.fumpdibbidy.blogspot.com.... over and over and over
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You're still weak. Have you gone crying to the mods lately when one of the big boys takes your lunch money? I wonder if the guy that forced you to snitch, whine and change your name is still around... Tell the truth Snitchy were you waiting by your computer feverishly hitting the refresh button hoping somebody would mention you since this is all the human contact you have? Don't worry about replying shut in I'm heading out into the scary world outside your door to be with real people.
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True story.
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Wow, your fantasy life sounds much better than the TV shows you watch. What happened?
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There hasn't been a show on for a while that I cared about really. I guess that's summer for you. Mad Men is the best show on TV right now. I might consider the use of the word "soap" in reference to the show if every time it wasn't used as a pejorative. Everyone who cries "soap!" has a bone to pick, probably because they are stupid, so why give them the time of day.
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Sorry, Mad Men doesn't have the hardcore violence you dweebs think is a requirement for entertainment.
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I believe this is going to top last season, at least on faith....oh, and Stepdaddy ----- THAT was BAD. stick to posting anonymous comments like this instead of showing your face in embarrassingly unfunny parodies of movies far superior and less relevant than the subject matter at hand.
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not mad men
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'They're Angels'.
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WHERE'S MY FUCKIN' SHINE BOX?!
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It's been a year now, right?
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Not during the summer.
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Not during Mad Men
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I totally forgot about that. Didn't he interview them at 2009's SDCC? Jeez... I bet all the info in it is outdated now. The interview probably just talks about the first half of season 4, which ended MONTHS ago.
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Jul 25, 2010 9:40:41 PM CDT
no one is geeking out on who has joined the cast of eureka?
by brabon300
pretty shocked that no one has mentioned that baltar is now on eureka...as a man out of time
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James Callis' American accent rubs me the wrong way, though. I don't know why, possibly because I'm so used to Baltar's (affected) Caprican.
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body. She got skinny as hell. These fucking women are crazy.
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...Sometimes we forget who actually make up the majority of people who visit this site. There are those who are coniseurs of film like Moriarty and to a lesser extent, Harry, who watch everything and appreciate all that is good. They both, I'm sure, can enjoy Breaking Bad, Lost, BSG, The Wire, and Mad Men and appreciate all the great television being offered to this generation of TV watchers. Those people are in the minority
The majority are the fanboys who don't think something is enjoyable unless it has monsters, aliens, hardcore violence, and Batman. And god forbid something get too popular to the mainstream because then its gonna get totally shit on.
The fanboys dominate the talkbacks, so the chances of having an extended civil conversation about a show like Mad Men (no batman or drug deals = Breaking Bad owns your stupid soap opera ass!!) are pretty slim. -
Excellent start, though I expected no less
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and True Blood. Sopranos was the best show on tv for ever it seemed then Wire came and it kicked ass.
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That'a another thing. Why people need to say this show is #1, that show is #2, etc. To me there are levels. Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men are all at that elite level. Breaking Bad is really close. The top shows to me all kind of transcend in some way. The very next tier is great too though, like House or Justified, excellent genre TV that fulfills any requirement you might make of such a thing.
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Yeah, I remember that. Still waiting huh? What gives?
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Anyone who doesn't like Mad Men is an idiot.
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just saw an interview with her...still her beautiful, full figured self...i think her new hubby would be pissed if she lost her boobiesmad men has the best dialogue of all the dramas on now...the stories are secondary i put weeds and breaking bad in the same category...and i cant watch either, as i dont care to be reminded as to how shitty the world is todayjustified is the most compelling drama on nowthe wire surpasses them all because it wasnt simply a tv showand shit, eureka is a nice hour long break from reality
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This is exactly what Mad Men was meant to be. This script felt polished as hell, and having Don Draper playing ball, and watching Betty's life fall to pieces is going to be really fun.
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and doc hammer says that true blood is the worst show he has ever seen...and he watches it every week just to see it get worse
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Looks like this season is starting almost a year after the end of last season. Season 3 ended in December 1963, and this one is already up to Thanksgiving 64, so most of the season will run through 1965. Also looks like the new offices are a little more modern... almost starting to look like something out of the 70s instead of the 60s. Peggy sure is acting chipper and more confident now too. Can't wait to see how this season unravels.
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does the wb now own cartoon network and adult swim....and does cbs own tv.com?or is everybody into cross promotions now?
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Maybe great, though it took 1.7 seasons to get there. Mad Men started and has stayed great. Tonight rocked.
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Can we discuss the episode? It had a little of everything. It affirms Betty Draper being the least liked character in recent history. I mean Don's not likable but Betty is just a bitch and makes him actually seem sympathetic.
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Its not actually on TV anymore
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There already appears to be tension between her and Henry just a year after meeting, and her kids aren't making it any easier for her. Don's going to end up finding a new woman to marry and move on with his life while she is stuck in another miserable marriage. Or maybe Henry will bail on her since he's not responsible for taking care of her kids.
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Betty's not getting nailed like she likes. I want to see where Joan is homelife wise. Also, Draper's new 'interest' is seriously hot.
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The only reason some geeks don't "get" MAD MEN is because there are no "whackings" on a weekly basis, and it's sophisticated and subtle and witty and demands some attention. In 2010, that makes it a complete anachronistic anomaly.
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The way they set it up last season, it seems like a sure thing that her husband is going to go off to Vietnam and get killed. Especially with that amusing line he had about how the war isn't likely to last very long.
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I just rewatched the entire third season on Blu-ray... could barely get to sleep for a couple nights for wanting to watch all 13 episodes in a row. Mad Men rules.
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sure sign it sucks.
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which is a sure sign that diox is a fucking racistand tonite's show was brilliant
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I don't know... "gee look how pathetic and lonely don is, he has to pay a hooker to slap him in the face on thanksgiving while his real family is out of the picture". Seemed kind of heavy handed to me, and trying to make Don look like more of a creep than he probably is.
He kicks the guys out of the office which was a great scene, but then he becomes a total phony at the end when he gives that Wall Street Journal interview. Yes, Don is living a secret life etc. but that's the first time I saw him act like a phony regarding his business, with that phony smile on his face. Of course the twist is that the story he tells the reporter is the complete truth and the truth by itself is probably going to make a great story. So many layers...
Betty's new marriage obviously sucks. Couldn't care less about Betty right now or her new husband.
I don't know if I like the new confident Peggy. It does show how great of an actress Moss is though because the change in personality over tonight's ep and last season is pretty striking. And that huge "power haircut", not sexy at all. Guess that's the point, she is moving away from sexy and wants be more one of the guys.
Joan gets an office. Good for her.
Loved Harry Crane's severe sunburn from coming out to visit us out here in L.A. That stuff still happens to me too. You need your sunscreen in So Cal if you're white and pasty. Then he comes back and the guy with the fake sport who's show he just sold cancels because he wasn't mentioned in a hit piece about Don Draper. For a minute there I thought it was a practical joke and was bummed when they didn't break out laughing. Poor guy, he's good at what he does if he could sell a fake sport.
Don Draper's new gf--hot. Smart. That's going to be a good story I bet.
Like the more "mod" look of the new office, its (now) retro futurism but at the same time am kind of sad to see the distinguished look of the old office go away.
Can't believe Pete and Don are actually getting along. Pete is probably a psycho and in later years will end up in a Charles Manson like cult after moving to Los Angeles to get ahead of the whole hippy thing as a record producer. Pete Campbell will look like George Harrison on the cover of "All Things Must Pass" but then will kill everyone he knows. OR maybe the music and peace/love vibe will mellow him out and he'll start a successful New Age like industry.
WTF does Don Draper need a housekeeper in his tiny bachelor pad? To keep up appearances of what he's used to I suppose. Looks like a complete joke though.
I love sweet potatoes too.
There I discussed the episode! See you next week. -
he will fuck her brains out...he will not marry herwatch the epi again...the man learns fast....he will not marry another shallow twat for appearances sakehe also now connects sex to pain (see the scene with the hooker) sally is going to have some serious issues...i really hope they can let the actress age with the show and dont skip over a few years and have to dump her...she is growing into the role
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the hooker scene wasnt heavy handed and didnt make don look like a creep...a bit pathetic yes...but not a creepand you are making a mistake by disconnecting the yelling at the clients with the final bs interviewdon wasnt yelling at the clients..he was yelling at himself...the clients were his proxyhe yells at himself, and then takes the chance of selling himself and the firm using the wsjof course don needs a housekeeper...think he really has the time (or the want) to cook and clean?that girl will not become don's gf...he will fuck her (if she unthaws to open her legs...but he will not marry her...or be seen at events with her....remember his conversation with sterling regarding his marrying a much younger girl and pete is not psycho...he is driven...he wont become a flower child
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i sure hope so...cuz they didnt get it on imdb...they had to wiki itvery sad
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Someone mentioned above how this show is all about the women, and I think mother and daughter highlight that.
I think Betty is pretty fucked up, but while everybody else hates her, I actually feel sorry for her. She was raised and groomed to be a pet, and has no clue how to do anything else. God love her, she tries, but she always heads off in the polar opposite wrong direction from sensicalness. In an age when women were starting to come into their own, poor Betty just missed the boat via the way she was raised rather than some fundamental flaw in her character.
Sally, on the other hand, has been completely alienated by her trapped-in-the-past old school mother, given a big boost of confidence last season by her crazy grandpa, and has for a role model the one parent she still likes, Don Fucking Draper, from who she'll no doubt inheret an independent-streak a mile wide. Oh yeah, and she's coming of age in the 60s. I think we can see where that's going. Godspeed Kiernan Shipka as you get a rather juicy role to grow into over the next few years. -
Figure out what that line means and you'll have figured out Mad Men.
cylon_conspiracy, you contradicted yourself. He wasn't acting like a phony. He was finally being himself. Rather than play the PR games, he just said what happened. That's the point, when you're Don Draper, you can do that.
Likewise, the being slapped by the prostitute was the sexual equivalent of being modest. Don Draper doesn't pay for sex. He earns it. That's why Betty wasn't good enough for him. That's why he's never been happy. That's why this new woman intrigued him only when she presented a challenge (not when she acted like a fool at dinner).
I also love how Pete continues to look like a fool. What a sniveling suck up without a personality. -
Soaps conventionally refer to plots without substance. Mad Men is heavily philosophical and is therefore not a soap.
Breaking Bad is tired, trite, and boring.
Dexter became redundant after S1. -
this season should be goodhow is being slapped by a hooker being modest? why dont you see it as connecting sex with pain?i still dont think don understands what he did was wrong...and its possible that he is trying to use the hooker is some fashion to connect punishment to sexual actsand before this, when did don ever "earn" sex? women just fell at his feet the date was different because this vapid girl he was set up with is looking for a husband, ergo her rule of not dating divorced men
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Mark my words.
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No, I have not seen the new Dexter preview.
Don wanted to be slapped because he wanted to feel something. He has never been able to truly feel anything in his relationships with women because no so far have been his equal. Although, two have come close: Rachel Menken and the school teacher from S3. They wanted him for his mind and acumen, not his status and prestige. Generally though, you are correct. Don does not earn sex.
How does this connect with modesty? In the opening interview, he was trying to not be Don Draper. He was trying to suppress what he thought and felt. The interview, and the subsequent report, was akin to him buying a whore and paying her to slap him. It's no coincidence that the final interview, where he was Don Draper, was conducted by the WSJ. -
It's good but way overrated. That was a pretty boring hour of TV.
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Sorry it didn't have any car chases, laser beams or smoke monsters. Please return to whatever crap it is you like.
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It's only boring because you're accustomed to such a different breed of television. I found it to be incredibly intellectually engaging with the ideas being batted about.
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and a solid season opener. It linked well to story arcs from last season, but did a good job of jumping the characters ahead to 1964. Roger Sterling is still my favourite.
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in the first season when Draper was a mystery and trying to hide a secret. Now that we know he's just a lying, cheating self absorbed twat, he's frankly not very interesting.
You guys know nothing of what I do like. Mad Men pales in comparison to great shows like Deadwood, Rome, The Wire or the Sopranos.
And to call that episode "intellectually engaging"? Weiner had a great idea for a first season, but he apparently shot his wad. Just because the show looks nice doesn't mean it's intelligently written. -
was the least interesting part of S1 and the series in general
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Please explain to me what "Who is Don Draper?" means and what other line in that opening five minutes is very important. Also, what made the ham scheme bad as opposed to Don's methods of advertising?
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Jul 26, 2010 7:44:52 AM CDT
Are the women wearing miniskirts and go-go boots yet?
by jaylenotookmyjob
Men wearing bell bottoms and muttonchops? No? Geez, they jumped 3 years between the first season and the second, if they'd kept that up, it would've been like 1970 by now.
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The boss guy gets drunk a lot, betty is an even worse bitch, the fugly chick keeps getting promotions, the pudgy chick sleeps around some more, Don Draper cheats on his wife and knits his eyebrows together a lot. Everyone smokes and drinks too much. That's pretty much every other season, so bets are, this one's the same.
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. . . do you think Ball really meant for Sookie's whipping that chain around that guy's neck in the the premier of Season 1 as an example of her telekinetic powers or do you think he just decided it looked so retardedly hokie that he just had to explain it in the NEW episode that aired LAST NIGHT?
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He should have told Betty. I'm sure she would have obliged
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God I love this fucking show. Don's call girl slap. Sally gagging on sweet potatos. Don watching his own Glo-Coat commercial reeking with self-analysis. The two women fighting over the ham. Pete talking about the jai alai guy crying on the phone. Don threatening to kick Betty to the curb or start charging rent. Don getting blasted by Peggy on his lack of PR skills (she is getting bolder by the year). Everything Roger said. And last but not least Don kicking those two douches out of the office, even snapping his fingers. BEST SHOW ON TV.
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I thought it was obvious that she used tk on that chain, but that's my opinion. I don't think it was retroactive.
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Fuck off you pathetic twats. Don't you have an episode of Wipeout (Ouch My Balls) to watch or something?
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For some reason that whole thing reminded me of the Sopranos
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Don putting Peggy's "fiance" in his place was gold. Love, love, love this show.
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Generally, I feel I comprehend things quite well. For example, I feel I comprehended Inception with no real problems. Also, I'm the guy in the office who explains things that others missed. However I'm that guy on this first episode. Am I as the viewer supposed to hate Betty Draper or am I just a huge chauvinist?
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Like someone said above, she was raised to be a pet and lacks emotional maturity. But it also helps to keep in mind what Don has done to her. He lied about who he even was. He kept secrets from her. BIG secrets. He cheated on her every chance he got. It's not difficult to see why she would be hostile towards him or feel entitled in certain ways. But she definitely was not very likable in this episode. Just the way she treats her kids is abhorent. But that was also the times. And clearly in this episode she's vindictively trying to settle some score with Don (Keeping him waiting, Denying his time with Gene, etc.) So all in all I would say you are a chauvinist, but not a huge one. ;-)
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As Hobocode listed, this episode was jam packed with goodness. I enjoyed last season, but some episodes moved at...a...glacial...pace. I love how the new season hits the ground running, and you have to figure the time frame and what has happened since last season. Oh and John...Marsha...John...Marsha...based on an old Stan Freburg bit.
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Roger, right on the money as usual. And after all, Don IS a prick. I was noticing he treats everyone like crap, even if they don't deserve it. Which I'd chalk up to his self-involvement. Some people deserve the attitude, but how about being polite to the damn maid, Don?Does anyone else think Sally's little eating scene was a sign of some kind of eating disorder? Seems a little obvious for this show, especially since it seems more like a problem her mother would have.
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You've summed it up. I feel like Betty is with that other guy because she's trying to get even. Not because she really loves him. And in the process, she's screwing over her own kids. Being the 1960s, it's her main job to raise the kids. So her whole act just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I agree with you though.
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I admit I had no idea what that was but presumed it was some TV show or comedy bit. It's funny, even though I completely missed the reference, I always admire the show for having the guts to not explain the dated, more obscure references. Also, the idea that Peggy could fool around like that is kinda surprising. Imagine a TV show where characters change as the seasons progress? What's the world coming to?
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Yes, Don was a bad husband but that isn't why she hated him. She hated him because she wanted an international go-getter and he was, at heart, boring and pedestrian (remember when he bought her the locket she thought was tacky--that was what set her of final "hate Don" spiral, not the affairs or anything else). And then there's her manipulation of her friends and neighbors just because she's bored. Finally, regardless of Don's cheating she treats her kids like crap, thought Don should have (literally) beat the son for cheating in school and is quickly turning the daughter into an anorexic mental patient. As for her childhood, Don's own past proves that hers was no excuse for how she treats the kids. When she wanted Don to beat the son, Don refused, telling what it was like to be beaten by his father growing up and why he wouldn't do that to his own kids. Don is an incredibly flawed human being but he tries to be better than his background. Betty wallows in hers and uses everything as an excuse to treat everyone-including her kids-like crap.
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I don't think Betty married the other guy out of revenge per se, but I do think she used him as a way out of her marriage with Don. The stigma of being a divorced single woman in the 60's was probably overwhelming (Betty herself treated her divorced neighbor like shit), and I think in Betty's mind having a new man in her life to rely on eased the burden somewhat.
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Just kidding man (sort of). I don't know. I think they were both bored with their lives. Betty may have thought Don was boring but obviously he felt the same way. Why else would he bang anything walking on two legs? I can't completely fault Betty for her treatment of her kids because clearly that was how women raised children back then, at least in her world. She was the one that had to deal with them on a daily basis as well. Don showed up at the end of the day to bounce them on a knee for a couple hours before they went to bed.
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Jul 26, 2010 11:38:41 AM CDT
Legend of the Seeker Season 2 is being replayed in syndication
by stabby
So, if you missed the first run of this excellent series you can watch it now. It is also streaming free from Netflix.
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I seem to recall her locking her daughter in a closet for being caught doing something (smoking, playing with make-up?..). What parent in their right mind, no matter the era, locks their child in a closet? As far as Don's "quality time" with his kids, outside of family outings, hasven't they always been glued to the boob tube, like last night, while Don's reading the paper, or doing work or something. Of course that was not uncommon during that era either.
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There is always going to be an "I Hate Betty" contingent, but I think if you pin all the blame on her, you're completely missing the mark. She was treated like shit by both her parents and by her husband and now by her increasingly antagonistic daughter. She didn't leave Don because he's not her ideal international man of mystery. She left him because she increasingly saw herself as his accessory, which she was. When Don bought her the little trinket in Rome, she wasn't disappointed because it was tacky, she was disappointed because she realized that's all she is to Don: a trinket. At one point, Betty doesn't want to go to a party, and Don says: "Come on, Betts. I want to show you off." She spends her whole life doing what is expected of her, being miserable most of the time, despite assurances from society that this is the path to happiness, and that little trinket pretty definitively tells her: This is all your life is ever going to be; You are a bauble on the charm bracelet that is Don Draper's life. Is she flawed as a person? yes. Is she a bad mother? Hell yes. But every authority figure she's ever been around has made sure she started the race with a pretty significant handicap.
She was completely justified in breaking it off with Don, and I love the fact that she stood up to him, as it showed a blossoming courage in her character. Now if she could just learn to be a functional human being.
As for Sally, no she doesn't have an eating disorder. Her little bit with the sweet potatoes was just a little anecdotal sprinkling of defiance that will be paying off over the course of the next few seasons. Little moments like that are where "Mad Men" actually starts to compare with "The Wire": character development through short scenes illustrating not huge turning points but mundane, seemingly throw-away, interactions. -
Or better yet "Betty is the Villain" ... EYE ROLL
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"Betty is a crazy bitch/Betty is a victim of her time" debate...I agree that given her home life, both pre and with Don, would produce someone with problems. Especially at a time when women of successful men had no outlet. They were expected to be the perfect homemaker/wife/mother, otherwise it would look badly upon the breadwinner of the family.And I've said it before, I'll say it again. Sally will be one rebellious teenage hippie chick when 1968-69 rolls around.
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During his first interview, he was staying true to the Draper code. Don't reveal personal details. Yes you could say he was hiding his past, but by now, it seems that mystery and not going on and on about himself is not something that he considers "being true to me."
And even when the interview turns out to be a hit piece, he is STILL true to the Draper Code, because he doesn't really care either way. When you are true to yourself, the consequences are secondary. He would have preferred a better article but it would have come at the expense of his integrity, so he was fine with the results.
When Don started acting phony is when he caved into the pressure of his partners saying he fumbled the ball and needs to make another go at having an interview to repair the damage. He did not want to do it, but Don is in-between worlds right now so he was vulnerable to listening to widsom/advice that was not his own.
He started fearing for his job and at that point stopped being Don Draper because Draper, in the work setting, is fearless and makes his own rules. But he got weak, he got scared, and went phony.
So at the end when he gave the interview to the WSJ, don't tell me he was "finally being himself". He gave the phoniest smile imaginable. Not that he was LYING, because the story he told was truthful. He was being phony to his PRINCIPLES. That's what made him a fake.
Of course the twist here is that for him to be phony he must be sincere and genuine about who he is, that's what makes it interesting in the first place. And I forgot which partner said it but the line about Draper was something like "a salesman should never be mysterious" and I thought that was hilarious. Because you are supposed to trust the people you are giving your money to.
Anyway, that's how I perceived the episode. -
...Don, of course, is no saint. And I agree with the people pointing out the things that Don has done to her. This show is one of, or, the best written show(s) on television; they're not going to make Betty one-dimensional as a villian, victim, or hero. She's all three, like Don. But, I do believe she is more flawed than Don. And, I think that's one of the points Weiner has been going for in this series; Don does reprehensible things to everyone, but, in a lot of ways he's more honest then all the other characters to. He lies to people, including Betty, yes, but the way he's written and the way Hamm plays him, he obviously questions things that the other characters don't. The way he's usually better at coming up with ad campaigns then everyone else projects this; he's able to get to what people really want or how they want things presented to them because he asks questions about his life and life in general. He's not like the other characters who have certain ideas in their heads about what they want or want to be, then desperately try to obtain them, and then whenever they fail, they just jump to another "ad" they want to copy. Don has done, and does, this just like everyone, but, the difference is that HE sees the fallacy in the "ads" and constantly tries to move beyond them; he wanted the pretty wife and family like evryone else, but, he saw how fake it was (just like his ads) so he started cheating. He does the same with the people around him. That's why he seems like an asshole sometimes; people who point out how full of shit you are always seem like assholes. And that's what he does, directly or indirectly, he points out how fake everyone's belief systems are. Betty, on the other hand, does not question anything. She "loved" Don because he matched up to her "ad" in her head. It wasn't because of her upbringing or the time she lives in, its the type of person she is. When she discovers he isn't what she thought, automatically she's not in "love" with him anymore. People on this board keep making excuses for her behavior, but I think its more political correctness then reality. The reality is she's just not a good person. Again, she's not some one-dimensional villain. But, she doesn't question things like Don. That's another thing Weiner has shown in this series, I believe; Don is ahead of everyone because of what he's been through, instead of waiting for something to go wrong for him to question something, he's ALWAYS questioning things and moving beyond them. The other characters have to wait until their "ads" fail before they start to question the reality of those "ads" to begin with.
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I don't think Don sold out his principles or anything. I think he just realized that with name on the company logo, his job has changed.
If you think back to anytime Don has ever pitched an ad idea to a client, he gets this gleam in his eye and he puts on his most charming smile and most of the time, he dazzles them into submission.
Don't WSJ interview was Don realizing that he was no longer merely selling ideas to clients, but selling an image of his company to the world. Once his internal mission statement changed, he did what he always does, he sat down with his client (no longer just a company looking for an ad, but a reporter looking for a story) got that gleam in his eye, flashed that charming smile, and sold the product.
He didn't sell himself out, he just reevaluated what product he was selling. -
So you're saying Betty and Don are equally reprehensible, but Don is smart, and Betty is a naive idiot? I can buy that.
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Not here, I just don't care about her anymore. Hate would imply her character holding meaning to me.
I liked her much more when she was married to Don. I realize we were meant to not see that part of Betty much longer because "housewives weren't happy back then, it was all a charade". How could a woman be happy staying at home and raising children, right? They all want careers and to be high powered business executives.
I was hoping that with her new marriage we'd see some of that spark come back in her eyes again but it's pretty clear her new marriage is no more satisfying than her old one.
So that's where her character is going, but I just stopped caring about her when she got mean and bitter and angry. It's like in real life, when someone is always grumpy and complaining you're like "ok already, you made your point. Get over it! Move on with your life!"
But maybe that's the tragedy of Betty's character. Maybe she is unable to enjoy life.
I don't know who hates Sally, she's a little girl it's kind of messed up to do that.
Who I care about is Trudy. Because she still actually loves her husband and believes in marriage. She's stronger than Betty, and has more optimism. She has more optimism because she believes in herself and in her marriage and in Pete. Even though I think Pete is a psycho, and yes he will become an overzealous flower child, Trudy obviously sees something in him and that's her fictitious business. But I don't doubt for a second that if it came to it, Trudy would not have the problems Betty had moving on and leaving him. So I guess Trudy can be more feminine and vulnerable because deep down she knows she can turn that off and go into bitch mode to get things done if she had to.
So, yeah Betty. Great character in seasons 1-2. If she gets an attitude adjustment, she might be an interesting character once more. But no one likes to watch a grumpy, miserable person never get over themselves.
<p -
"If you think back to anytime Don has ever pitched an ad idea to a client, he gets this gleam in his eye and he puts on his most charming smile and most of the time, he dazzles them into submission."
Exactly. But that's not the look he gave the WSJ reporter. He gave him a "Deer in Headlights oh my god I can't believe I'm doing this please don't hurt me" smile. That's NOT Don.
Yes he is changing for his business. He changes his principles for the success of his business. That's a very common story. Most people are true to themselves when they are younger but when they get older, they realize that they have to make other people happy first, then maybe they can be happy too. I don't blame Don for doing it, but I think it was a big change for him. -
I've only seen him during his awesome guest hosting spot on snl (the one with buble in case he hosted before or since), a meh part in the day the earth stood still, and he made me laugh a lot during his recent jimmy kimmel appearance. I wanna watch Mad Men cuz of him and Vincent Kartheiser, who I've been a fan of since his turn as Connor Angel on Angel.
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Jul 26, 2010 1:17:03 PM CDT
pretty shocked that visitors to this site would not know freberg
by brabon300
and/or what he means to the show and why they would be redoing the bitand im still hoping that they bring on a freberg like character into the showstan was a brilliant ad man at the same time he parodied the entire professionhope if any of you attended comic con, you went to freberg's panels...i would love to know what he thinks of mad men as he lived this era and knew these people
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I agree that he was being phoney during the interiew. He only begrudgingly decided to do it after his meltdown with the two-piece bathing suit (not a bikini!) execs. He knew after that that the only way to not feel the wrath of Sterling and Cooper was to bite the bullet and accept his new role in spinning the media. I think he recognized the necessity of it in creating business, but he definitely was not thrilled about doing it.
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I saw him in the promotional photos for the new season. Will he join SCDP or be working for a rival agency? So we get Cosgrove back but lose Paul? Shit I say.
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I hope someone's foot gets cut off by a lawnmower in this episode.
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Well that's just the thing, isn't it? When ISN'T he being phony? It seems a little odd to pick up the WSJ interview as phony when the first line of the episiode - "Who is Don Draper?" - is still a central theme of the show. The whole point is to question it.Now - I will say I thought it was a case of compensating for ****ing up the first interview, as well as because of the whole thing with Janzen ... he'd rather fuck around in an interview and have clients who want interesting, daring stuff than play it cool and continue with fuddy-duddies like them.
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Like a realy nice resturant that has all the bells and whistles but the food is just o.k.
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If you don't see the substance in this show, then you're the one who may be shallow.
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grown as an actor since Angel. I think Pete is a fascinating character, alongside the rest, and think Kart gets robbed of an Emmy nod because of the smooth as silk work done by John Slattery.
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"Oh it looks fantastic therefore it has no substance to it." *snorrrrrre*
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...you see a 'Deer in the Headlights' look, I just see Don taking a moment to come to terms with what he has to do.
Because if there's one thing Don Draper is good at, its doing whatever you have to do to get what you want. If that means putting on a shit-eating grin and winning over a WSJ reporter, then so be it. Anyway, that's by take.
Also: Yes, copious awards should be heaped upon the head of Kartheiser. Pete Campell is 100% an original. The goofy bastard. -
But that doesn't mean it lacks substance.
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I was thinking that when Don was explaining how they all got themselves fired and started their exciting new company, he was essentially selling the company as the "scrappy upstart" that Pete suggested. Though not necessarily intentionally.
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Yes, Don's MO has always been to never reveal anything personal. However, that was his great fault, his contradiction. He takes so much pride in his mind/ability, yet tries to play everyone else's games and stuff his ego down. That's why he said to Sterling that he was being modest. Being modest wasn't what he wanted to do. He thought it was what was expected of her.
Betty isn't to be hated. She's to be hated. She's a giant child, which is why her raising the kids is ironic. Back in S1/S2, I thought she was going to grow. It was only in S3 when I started to look down to her. She plays silly social games, which Sally is unfortunately starting to learn.
If there is any villain in this show, it is Pete Campbell, the polar opposite of Don. Notice how his ham scheme essentially corrupted Peggy (formerly Don's disciple) in this episode. It all goes back to the character he is based on...
I still haven't seen anyone say the root of "Who is Don Draper?" yet. It was referred to in S1. -
The villains are all the shit swirling around in the souls of the characters. Very few of "Mad Men's" dramatis personae have been unstained lives. Most (maybe all) of them have shown themselves to be total douchebags at one point or another. Don and Betty and Roger and Pete and Peggy and everybody else.
Sal and Joan are the only characters I can think of whose integrity aren't in some way compromised. Maybe Lane Pryce. -
Perfect reading of Betty. And in season two, she was my favorite part of the show, and they've spent a lot of time getting her to where she is now. And Pete as a villain? MAYBE in season one and two, but did you see how he was acting in this episode? He's totally behind Don now.
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Henry taking Don's side. Stuff like that is great. "You're not even looking" Betty had chance for redemption, but she's pretty set in her "You got everything you wanted, and you LOVED it" ways. Can anyone mention why Don didn't just go back to the teacher he was into last season, now that he's single?
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There's a difference. No one said the latter till you came along, boyo
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....not the best show on TV. That crown could go to several contenders including Breaking Bad, Caprica, this year's Lost, Modern Family, and Big Bang. Mad Men is horrifically over-hyped and although it has its moments, it never seems like a real depiction of that era. Several of us lived through that time and in those places but it was nothing like that at all. In the first place, we never made references to things that were going to be invented in the future-"Making an instantaneous copy of something is IMPOSSIBLE!" "I wish there was some way I could know what was going on in England right now but I DON'T!" "I need a secretary to answer my phone because i can't carry one around WITH ME!" The only thing it gets right is the denigration of women, its homophobia, and its subtle references to racism. And of course, smoking. But we didn't realize any of those things back then. You can see the plot points coming a mile a way and what it lacks most is a soul. None of these characters are sympathetic and most are downright slimy. At best, it is a nice little diversion, at worst, laughable. Why it is so critically popular is a mystery.
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...when you list "Caprica" among your nominees for Best Show On TV, it becomes glaringly obvious why you haven't solved the mystery of why "Mad Men" is a television superior program.
And concerning passing references to future technology: there are TONS of things for which we wish aloud that later go on to become actual things. That's why things get invented! Because people need them and want them and say so! You think there was never a parent who chased after a child while on the phone wishing aloud that the damn phone cord would stretch from the kitchen into the bathroom? I wish phones didn't have cords!
Or somebody lost on their way to an out of town wedding who didn't wish aloud that they had a talking map that would tell them where to go so they didn't have to keep peaking at the fold-out on the passenger seat without crashing into surrounding traffic?
Or, god forbid, someone who was late for a meeting who didn't wish aloud that there was some way to push a button and get a document copied immediately instead of having to wait for a secretary to retype the whole damn thing?
I hate those people. It's like they thought they were in a television show from the future! How obvious. -
notice how she had a person with her when facing these two. speaking of pete he was so chipper here that when an opportunity arose for him to be creepy/seedy when he told peggy to stay in the offic,e his wife called at that moment.
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Well put regarding the shit in the souls being the true villain. It feels well with the material Weiner constantly references. However, I disagree that Pete is behind Don. He may think he is, but this episode proves there will be a blow out in the future. They are diametrically opposed on a deep level.
Mad Men has always been the story of Don and Peggy. Romantically? I don't know, but out of everyone we've met on the show her journey most closely resembles his, and she is the character closest to him that has the most
potential to be his equal. This episode played on that idea, showing how Peggy moved back to the Pete side of things during the time we didn't witness. -
"It seems a little odd to pick up the WSJ interview as phony when the first line of the episiode - "Who is Don Draper?" - is still a central theme of the show. The whole point is to question it."
Refer to my earlier point:
"Of course the twist here is that for him to be phony he must be sincere and genuine about who he is, that's what makes it interesting in the first place."
And this: "Of course the twist is that the story he tells the reporter is the complete truth and the truth by itself is probably going to make a great story. So many layers...
I know the whole point is to question it. But whatever standards Don Draper had lived by, changed when he gave the WSJ interview. Besides that's what I'm doing, questioning "who he is", so I guess I got the point of the story too. -
"...you see a 'Deer in the Headlights' look, I just see Don taking a moment to come to terms with what he has to do."
Fair enough, we interpreted a scene two different ways, there's no harm in that. That's what makes a show like this interesting, everyone has their own take on what's going on. -
Jul 26, 2010 7:21:15 PM CDT
"They are diametrically opposed on a deep level. "
by takingscorpioscalls
yep when Peggy came up to Don's room he had has hish blowup moment, Pete was behind the thing obviously so if he's pissed at her, then imagine him being at pete.
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I think regarding Don's 'phoniness', you're trying to hard to read extra layers into it. What does 'for him to be phony he must be sincere' even mean? That's just double speak disguised as an overly complicated epiphany.
Don is being phony to the WSJ the same way he was phony to every Cooper-Sterling client we saw him present to. Its the same Don, only now with a shift in who exactly the client is.
It would be phony of him to tell his actual life story and mine it for sympathy and a quick publicity gain. THAT would be Don Draper selling out. What we saw at the end of 4.1 was Don doing what makes him a great ad-man: controlling the narrative so the consumer will walk away with a certain impression and want to buy your product.
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Absolutely. The fact that Don's "don't leave" speech to her, is what he should have said when Betty is threatening to leave, and he can't think of ANYTHING to say to her is a perfect example of this.
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But the reason Don can't think of anything to say to Betty is that he doesn't actually love her. He likes her in the sense that she completes the picture, on the most superficial of levels, of Don Draper as Average Family Man, but there's nothing else there. Betty realized that before he did, and sort of flailed around blindly looking for a solution, and ended up clumsily stumbling into the open arms of Homewrecker Henry Francis. Someone above mentioned how Don sees through the bullshit, which is what sets him apart. I think its interesting that when it came to his marraige, Betty was the first one to see through the bullshit, and she was the one who initiated the much needed seperation. (how she went about it and where her path will lead are certainly questionable, but life as Don Draper's cufflink was not an ideal situation for her).
Don was able to pursuade Peggy to follow him to the new company because, god forbid, he actually respects her and appreciates what she has to offer (a sentiment he also feels toward Pete, even though their personalities are diametrically opposed). He could never talk Betty into staying because he never respected, appreciated, or even needed her. -
I'm about the same age as Matthew Weiner (45) and my mom was far from perfect and she was pretty much a stay at home suburban mom. And she was never, ever, as horrible to me as Betty is to her kids. Nor were any of the moms I knew. So I can't chalk it up to "the era." She's just a mean person.
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In the long term I think they might end up as a couple when this show reaches its end, but hopefully with a few more seasons of development before it gets to that point. I'd love to see the series end at 1970 or beyond.
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im in your age groupmy parents had friends with betties as wivesin fact, one of my cousin's was a betty....and i found they all had one thing in commonhubby
as always a white collar professional who spent alot of time away from homethe warm parents and moms were always blue collar....like my folksmy bro is married to a betty...what a bitch -
Is that she's played by an extremely shallow and one dimensional actress so it becomes near impossible to tell whether I dislike Betty or dislike how she's being played. If Christina Hendricks played Betty I bet she would be much more popular even with the same lines and plots. Not because of CH's body, awesome as it is, but because the girl is alive and can act.
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...dude, you're committing the cardinal sin of confusing the actress with the role. Bad acting wouldn't provoke nearly the reaction that January Jones' performance does.
Of course Betty would be different if she were played by Christina Hendricks. But Betty isn't supposed to have that much va-va-va-voom, which, alas, Ms. Hendricks cannot turn off. -
To follow up on whether or not Betty is bad or just misunderstood, the post-Thanksgiving conversation between Henry and his mom was probably meant to spell it out for people that Betty is NOT a nice person.
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You realize he isn't Don Draper right (I forget his real name)? He thought Don Draper was this family man, but that obviously fell apart last season. Now this season he needs to re-define his character of Don. The person in the opening interview is who he really is, a guarded loner who doesn't like people or b.s. By the end of the episode he decided Don Draper is this go-getter captain of industry guy and played that role in the interview. I guess we'll see how it turns out. Too many libs on this site. Need to be spoon-fed.
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"What does 'for him to be phony he must be sincere' even mean? That's just double speak disguised as an overly complicated epiphany."
No it's not that complicated. Just a gut reaction I had when I saw the scene.
I'll explain it one more time but then I'm going to leave it at that. A few people in this TB have said they thought it was phony too so take that to mean there is always more than one interpretation of any given scene. :)
Don Draper has a code. That code includes not talking about his personal life, or his motivations for what he does. He just doesn't do it.
When he gave the interview to the WSJ, he was being "sincere". My use of the word means he was being honest, upfront, truthful, open about his experience. I call that sincere. You may prefer a different word.
When he decided to open up and to tell the real story of the new agency, he was violating the Draper Code. You could say it was a sign of growth or maturity on his part, and that's fine. But that's not the point I was making.
My point was that Don was feeling pressure to act in a way that was not congruent with his standards of how he leads his life. It was a wise business decision? Sure. But by being SINCERE (opening up, being upfront about his feelings and motivations) he was not keeping true to his previous standards. He was acting like someone else, the person he felt pressured to act like. But he wasn't acting like Don Draper. Being compelled to act in a way that goes against your own personal standards of conduct, in order to pacify/be thought of as a "good guy" is phony in my estimation.
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There is the concept of "Don Draper" that everyone else sees and who the man is. The man tried to be "Don Draper." Now he is learning it's ok to be the man, not who the man is. We're learning who the man is. That's the point of the entire show.
And I'm not a lib. I just don't want to dumb the show down to the lowest common demoniator because then you end up hiring people to fight over ham. Wait, what? -
...so you read that shit-eating grin and wide eyed jazzing up of the Sterling/Cooper/Draper/Pryce origin story as sincere?
Draper doesn't have a code about talking about his past life. He doesn't talk about it because everything after the Korean War is illegal. Draper's code is "Don't Be A Dumbass" or "Do The Smart Thing". And at the end of 4.1, he did the smart thing and put the razzle-dazzle on the WSJ reporter.
Seriously, compare those last few moments with the reporter with his scenes last season pitching slogans to Conrad Hilton. I agree that it was phony, but it was the same kind of phony he's been selling since season 1. -
...Don isn't pretending to be anything. He's not trying to be the man he thinks Don Draper is. What we've seen the last 3 seasons is the essence of who that man is.
Imagine there are two parallel universes. In one, that man returned from the Korean War to his farm and family. In the other, he takes the identity of a fallen soldier. The man is the same in both universes, its just the context that changes. In the poor farmer context, that man's name is Dick Whitman. In the "Mad Men" universe, that man's name is Don Draper. Don is who he is, and isn't trying to be anything else.
When he came clean to Betty last season, she complained that she didn't know who he was anymore. He very emphatically said he was still the same person, and I believe that's 100% true.
At the end of 4.1, Don didn't chart a new course about he thinks Don is supposed to be. He just set his target a little further out on the horizen and realized that as the public face of the company, the fish bowl he's swimming in just got a little bigger. -
Shame on you. Shame on you for putting such an un-erotic thought in my mind. Peggy doesn't fuck guys like Don. She fucks guys like Duck. Don is a gazillion light-years out of her league.
I can see where you got the idea though. Yes, it's been said many times that Peggy and Don are very similar, the show creator has said as much so it's not such a shock that we could think they might end up together.
But in order for Don to fall for her, Peggy would have to become an uber sex pot, and that doesn't seem to be where she is going. In the last season, she became more feminine. The wife of the asshole stand-up comic told her to not to try to be one of the guys, but to embrace her true power: that of a woman. And for awhile it looked like she was doing just that. I would have fucked Peggy in Season 3. Not season 1. Peggy was turning into a good looking/ugly-duckling come swan woman in the last season or so.
But you can tell this season she is going WAY past that. She is trying to hide her femininity. She wants to be "one of the guys" and while that may make her very powerful, it does not make her sexy anymore.
I think Don's best match was the lady who owned the department store. I have to believe she'll make a re-appearance, they were just too good of a natural-fit to let that story go.
If I WERE Don Draper (nice thought) I would hook up with the school teacher. Jesus was that woman not only sexy as hell, but was willing to live Don's lifestyle with him. No judgement. She just wanted to be a part of his life. And it's funny, I think we were meant to believe that she was a Glen Close type character, but in the end she really wasn't. She took her rejection from Don like an adult and showed she could have been good relationship material.
But looks like we're getting a new hotty with this blonde actress. Very sharp woman, keeps Don on his toes by not giving in right away. I see some very interesting developments between the two of them.
Just my opinion. Like assholes, you may not require another. -
"...so you read that shit-eating grin and wide eyed jazzing up of the Sterling/Cooper/Draper/Pryce origin story as sincere?"
I can tell you're just looking for a fight. I'm perfectly willing to say "hey man, let's have our own views of what makes the character" but you aren't willing to go there with me. Have your own opinions, I don't care. Reject my opinions, that's fine. I've made my case, leave it if it doesn't work for you. -
No I don't think that "shit eating grin" was being sincere. I thought it was being PHONY. Re-read my posts, maybe we don't disagree after all. It was a phony smile because for him to give an honest (it was honest, he was telling the story like it happened) account like that, to him, was being FALSE. FALSE to his code of conduct. See? To be sincere, to Don, is to be phony. Whatever.
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from the hooker. Roger pretty much foreshadowed it.
and Betty is a spoiled bitch. That is all there is to it. Folks just aren't used to seeing the leading lady portrayed in a negative light.
To her, children are possessions, and when she's done with the politician, she will marry some other jackass to support her lifestyle. -
Seriously, unless that chick learns to grow up and take responsibility for her own happiness, even her new husband will dump her. She'll be lucky to end up with someone like Cosgrove. Too good-natured to realize what a basket case she is turning out to be.
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although I might have heard it once on Dr Demento in 1982. Thought Peggy looked suprisingly good sitting on the desk in that skirt
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...i don't mean to be picking a fight. I just think your argument is convoluted to the point that it doesn't mean anything any more. You seem to be argueing that Don has experienced some fundamental change in what he decides to share about himself, i.e. be more honest. But he's masking this change by cloaking his honesty in phoniness.
I'm argueing that Don hasn't changed a bit. He's just realized that he himself is now the product. What happened when Sterling Cooper was sold happened. Done. The same way a cigarette is a cigarette. Big deal. Who cares?
Until: American Tobacco has hired us to help them sell this particular cigarette, and Don Draper works his magic to make that the single most desireable cigarette anyone will ever smoke. Do you think he really cares about the cigarette itself? I'll bet the only time he smokes Lucky Strikes is when Lee Garner, Jr. is in the office.
Its the same thing with the WSJ interview. Do you think Don has been going all around Manhattan retelling the story of getting fired from Sterling-Cooper? No. It happened. Done. Over. But now that Don Draper is the product, it becomes Don's job to make it the single most engaging tale of business inginuity you'll ever hear.
I'm not countering your opinions because I'm trying to win a fight. I just think you're off base and attributing too many convolutions onto a scene that was actually pretty straight forward. -
I'm sure we'll have more interesting things to discuss next episode.
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...this guy in the talkback said the show is style over substance, so we apparenlty will have to settle for talking about the design of the period window fixtures, which I'm sure will be the stand-out element in an upcoming episode.
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Sorry, we can't all have our own interpretations of Don and the show. There is one valid interpretation because there is one intention by the creators. We can debate that intention is (and if it is achieved/mistakes that are made), but we can't all have different views of the show unless we want to write our own versions of Mad Men in our hears. No post modernism here.
Peggy trying to be "more feminine" is exactly the wrong thing to do, as that is what Betty, this new girl, Jimmy Barret's wife, and most of the other women on the show do. I do agree that Rachel Menken and the teacher has been the best matched for Don so far, but that's exactly because they tried the least to be feminine. They focused on their jobs and simply were, which is what made them so damn sexy. The same can be said for Joan. She isn't trying. She enjoys her work. She simply is. Of course, this is why I said Peggy has the most potential. Potential is the key word. When Peggy focuses on her work and shuts everything else out, she is damn hot. When she is sucked in by Pete and her family, she's boring and unattractive. -
Don gets sexy women, I don't think that's really up for argument. The question is, will Peggy rise to that level. I say, no. She is just not on par with someone Don would get with. She is someone Fred Armisen would get with. And that's totally cool.
I don't find women who want to be like men sexy. And Peggy wants to be thought of as a man in a man's world. And she is hiding her femininity as a result.
Now JOAN... yeah. But in the same way I think Don is out of Peggy's league, I think Joan is out of Don's league.
Maybe Joan is the wild-card. She is drop dead gorgeous, and probably the smartest woman in the cast, surpassing Peggy. The question is, does Joan want the things Peggy wants. If she did, she could have them. Joan's a dynamo. She has the whole package. She could run the company. But she doesn't seem to be interested in that. Yet. -
And that's why I think she's more powerful. The power of her femininity is just a given, she doesn't have to try. This gives her power because it makes men totally helpless. Whereas Peggy has to compensate by being more "capable", Joan wouldn't even think of something like that. She's already capable.
I think of the time where she was reading scripts. She had found something she was good at and was heartbroken when it was taken away. She didn't make a fuss about it. But it was clear from that she had dreams of something bigger. If she actually said "fuck you, I want this. Give it to me" no one would be able to stand in her way. Her beauty weakens them to begin with, and her ability seals the deal. Unstoppable. I just hope she doesn't turn into the tragic figure of someone who could have had so much more, settling for being "just" a pretty face. -
Not actually sexy women. He can have any conventional "beauty" he wants, but as Betty's story shows us (the former model) these are not the truly beautiful women. That is why he wanted the prostitute to slap him. Sex had becoming meaningless to him. It was merely an action.
Joan being out of Don's league is laughable for exactly the reason you said. She didn't go after what she wanted. Though Peggy has her flaws, she has always gone after what she wanted.
All I can think about here is what Don would say about this discussion anyway. "Who's idea of gender are you appealing to? The consumer's or everyone else's?" Peggy needs to find out what it means to be Peggy, not what it means to be a "woman" or a "man in a man's world." -
isn't laughable, it's a statement of fact, like you said before. There's only one way to perceive the show, and the writers very much wanted us to believe that Joan was outside of Don's league.
Guys don't think like chicks. "Well, she's really willing to go after what she wants and therefore would be a good provider..." no, it's just if they are turned on or not. Guys don't size girls up in the same way girls size up guys.
Ask Roger Sterling. He seemed to think Joan was pretty special.
Anyway, you're wrong and I'm right. There is only one interpretation. Mine. -
Joan and Don would wind up together. My point was that Joan is more capable/intelligent/whatever than Peggy is. Peggy is pretty capable too, just not in Joan's league. Peggy knows what she wants. Joan just isn't at that level of desire yet.
I love this show. It's fans are so totally willing to listen to a viewpoint that is not their own, it's amazing. -
Guys and girls think the same way, they're all people. The problem is, guys have been fed a fake standard of "values." What value do looks present? Sure, they're nice at first, but that fades, quickly. Don, the man of the mind, is beginning to understand this.
Joan is so far out of Don's league, yet is married to a "doctor" that can't even hold a candle to Don. That is a contradiction. It needs to be rectified. Which premise should be changed, that Joan is out of Don's league or that the "doctor" can't hold a candle to Don?
If Joan is so awesome, why isn't she the main character of the show instead of Don? Don is the main character for the reason, he is the ideal "mad man." He is the best this universe has to offer. Raising another character above him, undermines the point of the show that has been built up to this point.
(Also Roger doesn't want to see what makes people people. For all his intelligence, he is about as shallow as a thinker as they come. He only saw Joan for her curves, which is all most men see her for...on and off the show.) -
There is beauty to un-conventional beauty. There's also guys who think that they can't get any better so they trump up a plain-Jane's qualities in order to compensate for the fact they know they couldn't get a Joan. Sad but true.
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...but if you don't know what you want, it's irrelevant. Does Joan have more raw ability than Peggy? Probably. Is Joan more self actualized and individualized than Peggy? Hell no.
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Don can have probably any woman in the world he wants. But he's going to desire someone like Peggy. Why? Because beautiful women are somehow not intelligent/vapid/unattainable. But Peggy? Oh yeah, you could get her number. Come on man. Raise your game, don't lower your game to think the Peggy's of the world are more desirable than the Joan's of the world. Just kidding.
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No, no, a thousand times no. He saw her curves AND her inner beauty. Full package! A woman having curves does not make her somehow inferior to a girl with no curves. Roger loved Joan. Like, as a person.
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Joan IS self-actualized. She likes who she is and she is totally happy being Joan. She loves being Joan! Peggy does not like being Peggy. Peggy feels unsure in her skin. Peggy is insecure. Joan never had to deal with that crap.
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The scene post Kennedy's assassination where Sterling just calls Joan to TALK, and you see that they've really moved into friends who care about each other, is really nice.
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Exactly. Roger loves Joan. Yes he loved roaming those hills or whatever but that scene you mentioned shows they had a real, genuine connection that went way beyond the sexual. Not to mention when she was breaking down crying when he had his heart attack. That is a real, genuine (in tv world at least) connection.
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Roger and Joan may certainly love each other, but the fact that they're not together is exactly the shortcomings of their characters. Roger saw Joan for her curves and accidentally saw what was underneath, and bolted for who? Jane, who is nothing except a pretty face. Meanwhile, Joan, rather than pursuing what she wanted, sat back and took what life gave her. If she loves being her so much, why didn't she fight for Roger, fight to keep reading scripts? Instead, she accepted being denied both and allowed herself to descend into an unhappy marriage. Joan, on her best days, is a forced smile and a happy mirage. Roger, on his best days, is a shallow hedonist.
As for the following comment: "Don can have probably any woman in the world he wants. But he's going to desire someone like Peggy. Why? Because beautiful women are somehow not intelligent/vapid/unattainable . But Peggy? Oh yeah, you could get her number. Come on man. Raise your game, don't lower your game to think the Peggy's of the world are more desirable than the Joan's of the world. Just kidding."
Saying it's about being able to get her number is the same mistake. It's not the act of getting the number that makes the act valuable, it's the girl at the number that makes it valuable.
Yes, women must be intelligent or are they are not beautiful. Yes, women must not be vapid, or they are not beautiful. These characteristics can be held by a woman whether she is genetically/visually appealing or not.
In the specific cases of Peggy and Joan: Christina Hendricks is far more genetically/visually appealing than Elisabeth Moss. However, personality wise, Peggy is far more appealing than Joan. The difficulty in real life is that we often can't separate actress-character (image-personality) so easily as most people encapsulate both.
Finally, I don't know if you were attempting a personal attack there, but I would appreciate it if you stepped back from that line of argumentation if you wish to continue this debate, as it will cause me to no longer want to converse with you. -
Every bit as smart as Peggy, maybe even smarter. Obviously sexier. Unfortunately, she's just older enough that she got trapped in the "secretary/office manager/Doctor's wife" role. So, as put together as she is on one level, and as successful as she is in the role she's allowed to play, she's also stuck at a point where she can't ever hope to have the type of creative or professional successes that Peggy can obtain. Basically, she's the victim of the glass ceiling.
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I don't think I ever expressed an opinion as to whether you "got the point of the story". I don't recall even asserting there was a point to be gotten.
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"She didn't leave Don because he's not her ideal international man of mystery."
Pretty much she did - as soon as he told her the truth - that his mother was a prostitute she was gone. His status was shot in her eyes - he was not good enough for her. Mystery was fine with her - exciting. But the truth - she couldn't handle the truth. -
Jul 27, 2010 9:19:31 AM CDT
I couldn't make it through one episode, and I've tried
by coughlins laws
three times. Nothing about this show intrigues me, draws me in, catches my attention, anything...
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Jul 27, 2010 9:20:54 AM CDT
From reading this talkback, it sound almost exactly like
by coughlins laws
One life To Live or Guiding Light. To each his own, I guess...
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That would never work because she would likely see through all his bullshit and not put up with it.As for what Peggy really wanted from Don, just look at their trip to Italy. After that, how many of us were wondering if they would get back together? For many married people, a trip like that could help put a spark back in their marriage, even after they went back to their every day lives. But with Betty THAT is what she wanted. That's why I think she and Henry are in trouble. He seems like he'd actually like the happy traditional domestic scene.
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which played during the end credits helps:I was born in a bunk
Mother died and my daddy got drunk
Left me here to die or grow
In the middle of Tobacco Road
Grew up in a dusty shack
And all I had was a'hangin' on my back
Only you know how I loathe
This place called Tobacco Road
But it's home, the only life I ever known.
Only you know how I loathe Tobacco Road.
Gonna leave, get a job
with the help and the grace from above.
Save some money, get rich and old,
bring it back to Tobacco Road.
Bring that dynamite and a crane,
blow it up, start all over again.
Build a town, be proud to show.
Gives the name Tobacco Road
'Cause it's home
The only life I've ever known
Oh I despise and disapprove you
But I love ya, 'cause it's home
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didn't space out the lyrics.
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...I don't think she left him because she suddenly found his status to be beneath her. She's been miserable with him since Season 1, always blindly grasping around trying to figure out how to twist what she had into some form of happiness. She didn't just suddenly realize she wasn't happy when Don revealed his past. Just watch any random episode from any random season.
But him revealing his past, combined with the trauma of experiencing the JFK assassination finally gave her an impetus to make a break. (normally I wouldn't blame the break-up on the assassination, and would rather chalk it up to symbolic background sub-plot, but Matt Weiner actually said in an interview that he knew of people who made drastic life decisions in the wake of that event, and felt it would probably have a big effect on Betty specifically, who was in the middle of her own personal crisis anyway.)
Anyhow, Don and Betty were never meant to be together, and they both tried to force it, but Betty finally saw through the bullshit, and Don's shady past gave her an excuse to finally put an end to the whole miserable charade.
She wants to be something other that Don Draper's arm-candy, and taht will never change as long as they're married. She has no idea what she wants to be instead, but getting away from Don was her first step. -
You are an imbecile afterall.
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That says a lot...
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What about Duck? The British Guys? And the stupid clients?
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The asshole from Lucky Strike who had Sal fired for not being gay on the job.
Another point on Peggy being "self-actualized" and women like Joan and Jane just being "pretty faces". First off, that is a sexist attitude hiding behind PC values of "all women should be high powered business executives or else they are worthless." You can't just write off a human being like that. "Pretty face? Worthless. Ugly and a real-go getter? You are a real person."
Not to drag Megan Fox into it, but it's the same thing. People hate her because she's beautiful, not realizing there might be a real human underneath. Bitch! Slut! Whore! Oh yeah she just married her long-time boyfriend.
Peggy is not even close to self-actualized. This is a woman who gave up her own baby and couldn't care less about spending time with him. Way to go Peggy! Way to embrace responsibility!
Peggy was willing to be Pete's girlfriend even after he as married. Talk about having high morals! I'm a home-wrecker! Sure this is a fault of many in the cast, including her.
For a self-actualized woman, Peggy sure doesn't know how to attract and keep a man. Her main love is married. She has a date with a hick from back home, and she gets so prissy she walks out on the guy, humiliating him by leaving him at the restaurant. Then let's see, the best she can do after that is some nerdy dweeb who tries to pick her up at a bar, and she makes him leave saying it was "Fun". Yes there was a great connection. Then there was Don, sorry, DUCK. Now if THERE wasn't one hell of a guy! His dog is too much of a burden so he lets it loose out on the busy streets of Manahattan. And, in this most recent episode, her new bf. Such a good match that when he said he was her "fiance" Peggy wanted to throw-up. Will true love ever come to our dear Peggy?
If Peggy were self-actualized, she'd be swept up off her feet by some handsome ad exec who knocks Joan to the side on the way to Peggy's office. "Step aside, you curvy whore! I'm done with hotties like you. I want the girl who is just as tough and manly as me!"
That hasn't happened yet. Peggy is a great character but she is deeply flawed, without compassion for others, and not confident. Just the way she is.
Someone like Joan can be an icy bitch at times, but she is capable of deep warmth and compassion. So if there were a battle between "who is the most genuine of the two, Peggy or Joan" it would have to be Joan. -
Duck? Duck didn't stand a chance of doing any kind of sustained damange to anybody but himself.
I see what you're getting at, but there's a difference between an obstacle and a villain. Duck and the British and every hard-to-deal with client are just the comings and goings on the business world. Just a backdrop that force the characters to move in new directions and not become stale.
As for the Lee Garner, Jr., yes, he demanded to have Sal fired, but Don was the one, after knowing all the facts, who chose to ultimately let Sal go. And not because Don is a horrible person (even though, like everybody else on this show, sometimes he is), but because of the societal pressures. I guess you could say that the societal norms of the time can sometimes be the villain, but be careful: some people earlier got their feathers crumpled when I suggested it was the backward thinking society she was raised in that led Betty Draper to flounder around in such impotent rage. -
So many theories and views. Just love it.
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But that scene where he let his cute dog out in the city streets to fend for itself made me sick.
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viallain sounds like either a new ice cream flavor or a prescription drug.
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Not just Don, everyone was fine with it. That was depressing. But it was still Lee Garner, Jr. who caused the whole thing to begin with, so he holds blame. Otherwise you could go back another level and say Sal shares the fault too because he should have known if he didn't do as the client said he could get in trouble/outed.
Don does get pass though because when Sal got discovered in the hotel room, he didn't do anything. Just said "Limit your Exposure" and Sal looked like he had just gotten a stay of execution.
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If I read the episode right Don seems to have decided to take his own advice and stop playing it safe to no profit.
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description of the show and tell me he couldn't be talking about General Hospital.
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Then shouldn't you be on the General Hospital message boards complaining it's too much like Mad Men?
Wait. You watch General Hospital? -
Jul 27, 2010 2:49:11 PM CDT
Pretend all you want that this show isn't a soap opera
by coughlins laws
and pretend all you want you've never been forced to watch at least a couple episodes of a soap opera in your lifetime. Sure I believe you haven't...
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When I was in my late teens and smoked pot. We were convinced we were watching David Lynch movies, because the stories were so fucked up and unbelievable. Horrible acting. People always dying then their evil twin with an eye-patch coming from some distant land, it was fucked up. Fun, but not even remotely dramatic or even serious. Just surreal. But that was Days of Our Lives. You are the expert on General Hospital so watch some Mad Men then come back and tell us if they are the same.
So you're criticizing a show you've never seen, do that I have that right?
Are you mentally disabled? Is that why you make fun of shows you've never seen? I don't get it. -
It is set in a common real world setting, not doctors, or lawyers or police officers, and there's no "case to solve". If thats what defines it as a soap opera, then so be it. You find it boring, fine. The show is defined by the characters relationship to one another, and their relationship with themselves, the choices they make. Its not concerned with who is sleeping with whom...thats the concerns of a soap opera.
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Then everyone here would be up to date on daytime soaps. But as far as I know, they aren't. Must mean there's a difference of quality.
If Mad Men WERE a soap, I would still watch it. Who cares what it's called or if it's labeled a certain way? It's a great show. Some people are afraid of exploring human emotion so they denigrate a show that does it as being weak/lame/soap opera. They are missing out. -
...it was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo drawn out and boooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiinnnnnnggggggggggggggg. Long pregnant pauses of Don with his children. Long pregnant pauses of Don with his employees. Long pregnant pauses of Don and the prostitute. And NO PLOT whatsoever. And why is Don taking naps every day? I fast forwarded through a bunch of it, never missed a thing, and still was bored. Get some story people.
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Wasn't Don the only office mate who visited Peggy after she gave up her child? He consoled her, and I believe, saw in her an equal of sorts. In fact, I believe she is the only one in the office Don sees a bit of himself in, and that is why he rides her so harshly. He is whipping her into shape, so to speak.
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tried to watch, but nothing compelled me to keep watching. Maybe I just caught the only boring episodes. But based on everything I've heard and everything I've seen, it seems like a soap opera based in the early 60's with a bunch of cocky assholes. If you like it, knock yourself out. However, I remember many examples of people on this very site complaining about douchey, overpriveliged characters like this. Take the Cloverfield talkback, for example. I saw lots of people say they hated that movie because of all the arrogant, oversexed rich people. Well, why is it something that people want to see now? Sorry, I never got into watching shows like this, like Dallas, like Falcon's Crest, etc.
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Jul 27, 2010 3:42:12 PM CDT
Can someone tell me how I'm wrong. I feel like I'm missing
by coughlins laws
something. All I get though is people calling me an idiot or an asshole for not watching. However, I did watch the first Season of Lost on dvd to catch up because I thought I was missing something, and now I'm pissed I invested 5 years in that show...
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Because he just gave her a promotion and then she disappears door god knows what. Let's take it back to that scene in the hospital where don essentially gives her the advice that he wished someone gave him when he made his decision to leave Dick Whitman behind. He is giving Peggy a way out but also endearing her to himself thusly creating a mini Don Draper in Peggy. I always thought he did this out of loneliness , to create another version of him. Maybe because he hoped it would drive Peggy to become so much more than was expected of her. A chance to put everything behind you and start fresh. And it damn well worked. Just look at Peggy in this first episode of season 4. She is a confidant women with her own stubborn streak growing in her. I loved when Don told her she was out of the meeting and she called him on " being spiteful. And you know what a women in that room telling those two prudes that the ad wasn't sexist or risqué might have helped him to sell it.
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A serialized series like Mad Men (is that why you liken it to a soap?), like Lost, Buffy, etc. etc. etc. before it, is very hard to get into mid stream without knowledge of the characters. Sometimes a look, or a single line can speak volumes, if you know what to look for. And I will admit some episodes do move at a glacial pace, but I don't mind.
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You're not an idiot for not wasting your time and ours trolling a thread about a show you don't even watch. It's kind of pathetic.
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MAD MEN is great in the same way THE WIRE was great, but maybe you never watched that show either.
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MAD MEN is great in the same way Hopper's "Nighthawks" is great. And yet hordes of people can look at that painting and say, "That's stupid. Its just people sitting there. I could paint that."
Well go fingerpaint your own television series and show it to everybody and we'll compare. -
I was going to say something, but this conversation has become too shallow. I'll post my column later.
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Jul 27, 2010 5:02:36 PM CDT
It's only trolling if you don't believe what you are saying
by coughlins laws
I'm sorry I don't know anything about the show. I guess that means I can't ask questions and shouldn't be involved in any discussion. Maybe someone could convince me to watch. What skimn wrote was actually constructive and helpful...
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I think the central tenant of the show is the whole Ad-men angle. Everything is about what people want and making people want things and what they do when they have what they thought they wanted. Betty and Don thought they wanted to be a happy family but once they got that they didnt know what to do with it. They have been brought up to want a family and to fit that image of a happy family and good father and happy housewife but those things are as much created wants and desires as the ads Don creates at work. Heck Don Draper is an entirely created persona.
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"I'm sorry I don't know anything about the show. I guess that means I can't ask questions and shouldn't be involved in any discussion."
Now you got it! You're a quick study. -
Jul 27, 2010 6:38:28 PM CDT
"Sometimes a look, or a single line can speak volumes, if you kn
by dustinbones
That is exactly what I respect the most about Mad Men. It does not hammer you in the face with rapid editing, loud dialog/music, obvious overt situations, etc. It is all subtle, nuanced and intelligent beyond anything else that is on TV right now. You can't just come in to this show not knowing anything about theses characters and their histories and expect to be blown away by what you are seeing. It's not about that, it's about the meaning running several layers deep behind a look, an exchange, or any other interaction that to the casual viewer may not mean anything, but to someone who knows what they are watching simply takes their breath away. If that isn't what you are looking for, then give it a few years you'll mature enough to really appreciate a production like this, especially in this day and age.
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I can't believe Mad Men even exists in the first place. Most shows I like get canceled so I lucked out on this one. Hopefully we're only half-way through it's run.
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Jul 27, 2010 7:51:02 PM CDT
You missed the sarcasm, cylon. I can talk about anything
by coughlins laws
I want. From what little exposure I've had of this show, it seems like a night time soap opera, in the vain of Dallas or Knots Landing. You have yet to tell me how it's NOT a soap opera...
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what is it about "adverse to change" and "depression" that you dont getwhat is it about "pacing" that you dont get?when has this shown been "fast"?
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One word: philosophy.
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"You have yet to tell me how it's NOT a soap opera"
Why? You aren't going to watch the show anyway. You have nothing better to do than make fun of a show you don't watch. Being you must really suck. I wouldn't want to add to your burden. -
What the fuck are you guys talking about?
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I have to agree that you probably can't just start watching the show now and get what's going on. You need to know their history, put it all in context. But hell, even a show like The Office wouldn't be as funny to you if you started watching a few seasons into it and didn't know the characters.Also, it's different from a soap opera cuz it's not @#$%ing stupid.
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It's not our job to justify this series to you! If you had come in genuinely asking questions about why we love it, then maybe we would have actually taken the time to answer - instead you came in immediately insulting something that by your own admission you haven't even watched for an hour. What the fuck do you expect? It's like you enjoy being annoying and then wonder why no one is talking to you. I thought the same as you before I ACTUALLY WATCHED THE FUCKING SERIES. Go back and watch Episode 1...if it doesn't hook you, then forget it. Chances are you'll become addicted like I did, and then you'll feel stupid. The show is very intelligent and clever, but you have to watch it to see that. In the meantime, maybe go argue about something you actually know something about.
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Jul 28, 2010 2:30:07 AM CDT
Hey guys dont forget Roger when talkign about villains
by takingscorpioscalls
Becuase this guy is total villain, ok you know how everyone on MM has a positive/negative side to them and all, Roger's positive side is... cracking funny jokes. They are damn funny but thats pretty much it. He's morally bankrupt and could give a shit less!
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http://www.culturesponse.com/2010/07/midside-mad-men- s4e01-public-relations.html
Remove the space and enjoy. -
what was the tune playing at the end?
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See my post from July 27 10:50:23 am with bunched up lyrics. They do seem to fit, don't they?
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Gotta say it was a hell of a lot better the second time around. Great, great episode, the ending was electrifying. "Cocky" Draper for the win. They pick the music just as methodically as everything else in that show, of course it fits.
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Jul 28, 2010 2:55:20 PM CDT
How is making fun of the show personally insulting you?
by coughlins laws
I'm not one of these guys coming on here calling people morons for liking the prequels or personally attacking anyone. Maybe I'll try to watch a couple episodes from the first season on Netflix. I promise I will and then get back to you if it'll make you happy...
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What? Is this some kind of Superman fan fiction comment. Nope, just wanted to mention that Crista Flanagan, better known as the secretary who lawn-mowed that guy's foot off, is in the current issue of Playboy in some 1960s style shots. Usual Photoshopping issues aside, I didn't notice she was hot.
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I listened to Matthew Weiner's interview on Mad Men yesterday and he backs up my theory.
Check it out it's a very interesting interview.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128770109 -
Thanks for that mate. I thought it was almost like something from "Goodfellas" the way the camera moved out and the music kicked in. And the lyrics do fit incredibly well.
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thanks CoffeeShopThirtysix
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