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Updated With YouTube!! Herc's Seen EW's Whedon/Abrams Comic-Con Panel!!

I am – Hercules!! Thursday afternoon brought Jeff Jensen’s Entertainment Weekly panel with nerd titansJoss Whedon and J.J. Abrams. Notes: • Whedon finally confirmed he is directing Marvel's “The Avengers.” • Abrams did not reveal who’s directing the next “Star Trek,” but did mention he starts directing “Super 8,” his collaboration with Steven Spielberg, in September. (Actor Bruce Greenwood recently indicated the plan was to start shooting the next “Star Trek” in January.) • Abrams said “Super 8” will not be in 3D. • Whedon sounded uncertain as to whether “Cabin In The Woods” would be released in 3D and seemed to suggest 3D might not be a good fit for “Cabin." • Whedon says he’s still outlining the script for “Avengers.” What must Zak Penn (“Electra,” “Fantastic Four,” “X-Men: The Last Stand,” “Incredible Hulk”), who already wrote an “Avengers” script, make of this? • Whedon sounded undaunted by the task of melding “seven different tones” into “The Avengers.” He cited his history as a big-screen script doctor, which is all about “blending in.” • Abrams endorsed the ending of “Lost” but noted most of what he and Damon Lindelof wrote for the series bible never got used. • Whedon says he was secretly working on a “Dr. Horrible”-type Internet project with funnybook writer Warren Ellis (“Red,” “Global Frequency”) titled “Wastelanders,” but it was put on hold when Whedon got the “Avengers” job. • Whedon says it's counterintuitive to have all the Avengers in the same room, let alone the same team. 'And that to me is the definition of family.' • Whedon says he loved George Perez' run on The Avengers, and name-checked Squadron Supreme. • Abrams told a story about how he and his “Felicity”-“Cloverfield” collaborator, Matt Reeves, were hired by Kathleen Kennedy to fix the splices on Spielberg’s old super-8 movies. When Abrams suggested they steal one frame from each film, Reeves protested: “No, no, they’ll know!” • Abrams recalled stumbling across Frday the 13th 3D on TV – but it had no 3D, no sex and no violence. • Whedon revealed he owned an Alien egg 'but had to bury the franchise to get it.' • Someone asked if magic nerds or comic nerds were more pathetic. Responded Abrams: “Neither is really pathetic, but I would say magic nerds.” • Whedon says he got into comics as a preteen because his dad brought home Spider-Man comics. The elder Whedon wrote for “The Electric Company,” which featured Spidey. • Abrams was left in charge of a comic shop when he was 15 and says he regrets not stealing some of the early Spider-Man issues. • Whedon says “Dr. Horrible” made money for everybody involved, but especially for Whedon, who acted as the project’s “studio.” He says he’s proud to have pioneered the business model even if not a lot of others are yet utilizing it. • Whedon on the “Horrible” sequel: “We know what the movie is” but other jobs keep getting in the way. • Whedon thought he might detect scolding when Jensen asked him about “Dollhouse.” Whedon restated the question: “Are you proud of what you did? Maybe you should sit in a corner and think about it for a while.” • Whedon calls “Dollhouse” a round peg in a square hole. 'I didn't see Janet Jackson's nipple and didn't know how much trouble it caused,' he said. “I didn't quite think that one through.” • Abrams seemed to suggest that NBC’s secret-agent action dramedy “Undercovers” would feature more standalone episodes than his other projects, but would still feature multiepisode storylines. • Whedon says “networks never ask for serialized.” • Whedon says he falls into panics because he loved Abrams’ “Star Trek” so much; he calls it “the gold standard” among recent big-screen releases.
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Readers Talkback
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  • July 22, 2010, 10:39 p.m. CST

    Sweet

    by SoylentMean

    No, really. Sweet.

  • July 22, 2010, 10:40 p.m. CST

    2nd

    by lostboytexas

    fuck Lost

  • July 22, 2010, 10:43 p.m. CST

    Watching Lost now is like watching The Sixth Sense

    by SoylentMean

    OOOOOOOh, they were dead the whole time...

  • July 22, 2010, 10:45 p.m. CST

    Whedon has good taste in Avengers runs

    by Chewtoy

    You can't go wrong with any Perez runs. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

  • July 22, 2010, 10:48 p.m. CST

    Whedon and Abrams together

    by lostboytexas

    one an awesome writer/director, the other Abrams. 'go get me a coffee, buy!'

  • July 22, 2010, 10:49 p.m. CST

    SoylentMean

    by DanielPlainviewOnVacationInBoston

    I think you misinterpreted the LOST finale.

  • July 22, 2010, 10:50 p.m. CST

    Cool.

    by blackwood

    Thanks Herc.

  • July 22, 2010, 10:50 p.m. CST

    SoylentMean

    by RentonRiggs

    Ummm... love it or hate it, that's not what happened.

  • July 22, 2010, 10:50 p.m. CST

    Surprised...

    by Darth_Von_Stroheim

    AsimovLives hasn't chimed in yet, I mean c'mon Abrams, the rebooted Trek. These are his favorite topics on AICN. :-D

  • July 22, 2010, 10:51 p.m. CST

    Soylentmean.... Did u even watch LOST cause u didn't get it

    by Canidate_Micheal

  • July 22, 2010, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Oh by the way 11th.....yea!!!!....WHAT

    by Canidate_Micheal

  • July 22, 2010, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Lost Sense

    by Darth_Von_Stroheim

    They weren't dead, just that the whole parallel universe thingie wasn't really a parallel universe at all, but instead a psychic collective purgatory of some sort connecting all the main characters. It was kind of a cop out...

  • July 22, 2010, 10:54 p.m. CST

    Fuck Infowars

    by Iahael

    And fuck Alex Jones, stupid Jesuit Co-adjutator! T.'. (Illuminist sympathizer)

  • July 22, 2010, 10:56 p.m. CST

    Darth Sploder

    by Mockingbuddha

    I'm glad writing on Avengers is still ongoing. Work it 'till it works guys. And still try to bring back Norton. Make 'em do what you want Whedon! Don't let those ignorant ass studio pricks tell you what to do! You're the Buffy Man! They ain't shit to you. Haters ain't Creators!

  • July 22, 2010, 10:57 p.m. CST

    DOLLHOUSE = "Square peg in round hole"

    by MARCEL_THE_NEGRO_PROJECTIONIST

    According to Joss. At least he owned it! He'll be the perfect guy for AVENGERS.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:03 p.m. CST

    lol @ the lost spoilers in here

    by fat_rancor_keeper

    I caught onto Lost really late and just ran through all the seasons and finished them up a few weeks ago. I pretty much avoided all spoilers somehow throughout the years....I thought ending was okay. The show did such an excellent job early on building up mysteries & interesting possibilities but by the time answers rolled in I think viewers either didn't care as much anymore or simply put - NOTHING could live up to their expectations.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:06 p.m. CST

    Evidence of the near failure film(s)

    by DigitalBeachWar

    • Whedon says he’s still outlining the script for “Avengers.” What must Zak Penn (“Electra,” “Fantastic Four,” “X-Men: The Last Stand,” “Incredible Hulk”), who already wrote an “Avengers” script, make of this?

  • July 22, 2010, 11:08 p.m. CST

    Whedon knows how to do Type A persona ensembles

    by terry1978

    Which is basically what most incarnations of The Avengers have always been...a bunch of Type A personalities that all want to do shit their way, but still manage to end up respecting each other at some point.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:08 p.m. CST

    Oh HELL no...

    by dasaroo

    dear God, please let sleeping Lost dogs lie... Let's not crank this shit up to 11 again.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:08 p.m. CST

    Zak Penn Should Be Happy He Doesn't Eat out of a Dumpster

    by Aquatarkusman

    With a track record like that.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:09 p.m. CST

    Glad to hear Whedon mentioned George Perez

    by strosmer

    and his run on Avengers. Whenever I think of how I want Avengers to look cinematically, I think of Perez's work from that series. Though I didn't think Whedon was the best choice as director, I am glad to know he has that kind of reverence for the source material, is working himself on the script outline, and will hopefully emulate some of Perez's style on the big screen.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:10 p.m. CST

    Who gives a fuck when we can watch this...

    by DigitalBeachWar

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8rZWw9HE7o&feature=related

  • July 22, 2010, 11:11 p.m. CST

    Hurley's Island

    by illegal alien vs sexual predator

    No word on a LOST sequal?

  • July 22, 2010, 11:14 p.m. CST

    zak penn-worst writer working today

    by alienindisguise

    seriously.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:16 p.m. CST

    alienindisguise

    by DigitalBeachWar

    lol Is he still working?

  • July 22, 2010, 11:18 p.m. CST

    fat_rancor_keeper

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    "NOTHING could live up to their expectations." pretty much sums up how I see a lot of the Lost hate. <p> I loved the show loved the on island ending, would I have preferred something different for the flash sideways, yep, but think it was well done. Ultimately like any of the great mythology stories throughout time its all about dealing with important human themese through an amazing story and thats what Lost was for me. <p> Lost has a lot more replay value for me than say Sixth Sense, for me its just a great story, the "flash sideways", "purgatory piece" was really an epilogue to the amazing on island story we had seen unfold. <p>

  • July 22, 2010, 11:19 p.m. CST

    SoylentMean

    by Koyaanisqatsi

    It's nothing ling watching The Sixth Sense. They weren't actually dead the whole time. Moron.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:22 p.m. CST

    re Avengers and Joss Whedon

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    I don't think there is too many tougher directing gigs at the moment, all those different properties and egos bringing them together will be very hard work, then trying to tell a great story with the right mix of exposure for the characters. <p> Hope to be proven wrong but still think Whedon is the wrong choice, just not experienced enough for me. Would have liked to have seen how Whedon would have gone with a much easier comic to screen property i.e. New Mutants or even as the choice for X-Men First Class.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:25 p.m. CST

    Miyamoto_Musashi - I agree.

    by fat_rancor_keeper

    For me the earlier seasons were the best, particularity season 1 when EVERYTHING was just a huge (sometimes frustrating) unknown.<P> After that for me the seasons varied in terms of being interesting and engaging. Looking back I liked bits and pieces of the material with Ben and the Others but sometimes it seemed to drag on aimlessly with islanders switching sides. I liked the time travel stuff a lot. I also liked the Charlie character a lot and felt like he really shouldn't have been killed off.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:25 p.m. CST

    Avengers will bomb with Whedon at the wheel

    by Nerd Rage

    Just you wait an see. The guy does a moderately successful tween show and writes a few comics and suddenly he's the best guy to direct the biggest superhero movie of all time? Fuck off.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:26 p.m. CST

    Miyamoto_Musashi

    by Jayemel

    "the "flash sideways", "purgatory piece" was really an epilogue to the amazing on island story we had seen unfold." <p> I agree completely. The on island story was damn near perfect. The problem is, the epilogue was completely unnecessary and philosophically biases the on island story in a retarded manner.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:27 p.m. CST

    "WASTElanders" was the name of the

    by buffywrestling

    abandoned Ellis/Whedon project. Also EW has a clip of Whedon's official 'Avengers' announcement here: <p> http://bit.ly/a9gJuA <p> \(0.0)/

  • July 22, 2010, 11:30 p.m. CST

    Fuck cointelpro -- ABOLISH THE FEDERAL RESERVE

    by CRISPIN_GLOVERS_ACID_FLASHBACK

    Jesuit blah blah blah...Zionist blah blah blah...Knights of Malta, who gives a fuck? Enough with the cointelpro in-fighting. Exactly what do you think you are sympathizing with, Iahael?

  • July 22, 2010, 11:39 p.m. CST

    NWO

    by JamesGANDERPeek

    The real enemy is behind the curtain, but take this business elsewhere this is AICN.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:42 p.m. CST

    Why does Whedon still get a free pass?

    by slder78

    Let's recap some of his feature film credits. Original Buffy movie - studio interference fine. Titan AE - Studio interference again, uh ok fine, but FYI same studio (Fox), Alien Resurrection - Ripley and alien-human hybrid share incestuous look with each other, WTF?. Toy Story/Speed-No writing credit no credit period. Titan AE Studio interference, again allegedly (Fox again) Firefly - I don't even know what the excuse is for that one, other than the fact that for a feature film it looked an awful lot like a TV movie in every way, shape, and form. He's a TV writer, a good one to be sure, but that's the best he is. Let him stay there.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:43 p.m. CST

    So damn excited for Avengers.

    by FoolishFool

    Regardless of his writing, if there's one thing that Joss Whedon can do it's direct a whole bunch of people at once. Directingwise, I think he makes a whole lot of sense. That being said, I think he's a pretty damn good writer too, so color me really fucking excited for this movie.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:51 p.m. CST

    Good to see JJ not following the 3D fad

    by cgih8r

    Someone needs to take a stand!

  • July 22, 2010, 11:52 p.m. CST

    A witty Avengers movie? Shiny!

    by Stereotypical Evil Archer

  • July 22, 2010, 11:57 p.m. CST

    two references to JJ wanting to steal stuff

    by brechtsky

    kinda odd.

  • July 22, 2010, 11:59 p.m. CST

    I think they meant Magic (the card game) nerds

    by 3D-Man

    And they ARE the worst

  • July 23, 2010, 12:10 a.m. CST

    I thought they held back Cabin a fucking year JUST for 3D?!

    by Tall_Boy66

    So what in God's name were they doing re. 3D conversion? Hello?

  • July 23, 2010, 12:10 a.m. CST

    TIMUR BEKMAMBETOV should do The Avengers.

    by The_Genteel_Gentile

    Needs someone who can do crazy imaginative visual filmmaking to make it work.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:14 a.m. CST

    Fuck the Wanted guy right in his ear

    by Tall_Boy66

    Lovely, 900 slow-mo Matrix rip off shots that make no sense and are just loud and irritating? Gimmie Whedon any day.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:16 a.m. CST

    so JJ Abrams admitted that

    by drturing

    there's no way in hell he would've ended Lost like that.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:26 a.m. CST

    No it said thst JJ gave his approval of the ending.

    by paburrows

    He said that most of the stuff that was originally planned was not used, but that he still liked the outcome.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:28 a.m. CST

    Zak Penn? Oh My God you've got to be kidding me!!

    by The Founder

    How is this man getting attached to these damn projects. Dammit Marvel what the hell are you guys thinking. Clearly no one is.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:29 a.m. CST

    Tall_Boy66 is right!

    by MonsterKilledThePilot

    What the hell are they doing if they're not even sure about doing Cabin in the Woods in 3D?! Release it already!!!!

  • July 23, 2010, 12:32 a.m. CST

    The point of this panel was what exactly?

    by haters_union

    No real info about any of their projects. Underwhelming to say the least. Big fuckin' deal!

  • July 23, 2010, 12:36 a.m. CST

    Marvel this is last big comic that own, bring on inspiring talen

    by The Founder

    What the phuck is Marvel thinking The Avengers is one of the greatest running comics and a dream come true for fans to see it on the big screen. I just can't understand why in the hell didn't they line up some inspiring creative talent to bring their last big gun characters that they have the rites to.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:38 a.m. CST

    MGM is bankrupt

    by buffywrestling

    They can't even release the next film of an established Bond franchise - what chance does a quirky horror movie have? <p> [PS: The point of the panel was cock-sucking. Glorious,nerdy, Comic-con slurpage.]

  • July 23, 2010, 12:40 a.m. CST

    Joss Whedon and Zak Penn? WTF MAN?

    by The Founder

    My spirits are terribly low. This sounds like shit Fox would pull and now Marvel is doing this. I never would've believed that Marvel would've ended up like this.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:48 a.m. CST

    Networks DO ask for serialized...

    by ROBRAM89

    ...on certain shows. Bizarrely, a lot of them seem to be sitcoms? NewsRadio got fucked over like that. NBC demanded arcs.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:49 a.m. CST

    with a Zak Penn list looking like that....

    by TheSeeker7

    I can't imagine ANYONE'S gonna care about him possibly having issue with what Whedon said.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:55 a.m. CST

    Avengers: Heroes with big egos...

    by AxeEmAll

    ...which is why Whedon's take makes a lot of sense. It has to take some major crisis of sorts to bring the group together.

  • July 23, 2010, 1:01 a.m. CST

    If the Avengers director thing Abrams Trek is the "Gold Standard

    by IndustryKiller!

    then the whole project really is completely fucked. Unless by Gold Standard he means "having a cast save your ass from a ridiculous script and spotty action directing"

  • July 23, 2010, 1:01 a.m. CST

    Zak Penn wrote Avengers a WHILE back

    by Larry Sellers

    He's been attached since The Incredible Hulk. I'm sure he'll get credit, but I'm also sure they're going to strip down his script to what works like they did with Hulk.

  • July 23, 2010, 2:02 a.m. CST

    Yeah JJ "gave his approval."

    by Jayemel

    He's not going to badmouth Lindelof and Cuse in a public forum. I wonder what he really thinks.

  • July 23, 2010, 2:02 a.m. CST

    Poor Joss upstaged at his own panel.

    by RPLocke

    Did anyone ask him why Dollhouse sucked?

  • July 23, 2010, 2:31 a.m. CST

    Dunno...

    by SunTzu77

    Undercovers seems like a turd in the formation. With Burn Notice, Human Target, Covert Affairs, Chuck, White Collar, etc. already on the air... I don't see much that it can offer.

  • July 23, 2010, 2:56 a.m. CST

    Just rewatched Firefly and Serenity

    by David Cloverfield

    Say what you want, but the guy is great with ensembles. There are many shows where some cohesion develops over a few seasons, but Firefly had it down in the fucking pilot. Juggling all these characters, giving everyone an arc and shit to do... This is why he's the right guy for Avengers. On the other hand, I'm sure he's a prick. Blaming his failiures on someone else all the time...

  • July 23, 2010, 3:11 a.m. CST

    Star Trek - Gold Standard

    by Fortunesfool

    That's a worry. Unless he was being sarcastic. Like 'Star Trek, easily the best TV show reboot of the last two years'

  • July 23, 2010, 3:16 a.m. CST

    Avengers, Cap and Thor

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    Don't think Whedon is getting a free pass, lots of people are questioning this decision. <p> There is also a huge amount of pressure on him, and I think it will intensify if Captain America and Thor aren't up to expectations. <p> From my perspective the easiest of the Marvel movies is Iron Man, Robert Downey Jnr, just a guy in an armoured suit, based in reality (ok not exactly current science but not in fantasy). <p> The hardest movie by a long shot will be the Avengers, but the other two aren't going to be easy either. <p> With Joe Johnston behind Cap, I am worried, the guy is a mediocre (at best) director, and thats what his track record has shown. Its not going to be an easy sell either outside of the US<p> Thor, in theory should be cool, Superman-esque, not convinced of the choice of an actor but has some great people around him co-starring, it won't be Superman 4 bad, dont think it will be Superman/Superman 2 really good,. People will be watching this though thinking how will this guy work in an Avengers movie. <p>

  • July 23, 2010, 3:21 a.m. CST

    Surprised

    by Bass Ackwards

    I didn't realize that Joss Whedon hadn't already been officially confirmed as The Avengers director, and also surprised to find out Super 8 hasn't even started filming.

  • July 23, 2010, 3:23 a.m. CST

    Also

    by Bass Ackwards

    I don't get the Janet Jackson comment?

  • July 23, 2010, 3:31 a.m. CST

    Jayemel

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    If you were the Lost showrunners for the final season, how would you have approached taking into account all that had gone before and was setup, not being critical just being intriguing. <p> For me I originally thought the Flash sideways was a new reality, a reality without the influence of Jacob or Smokey and an epilogue to the show. What I was guessing was that Jacob and Smokey were some kind of power or beings, whether you call them angels or demons, or opposing aliens whatever and they were intefering in human affairs throughout history for their own reasons. <p> After the battle with Smokey a near dying Jack was given a choice to become a "god" to replace Jacob, to be able to influence human history or banish their influence. The banishment would be the destruction of the island, and a new reality created in its place, a reality without the island Jacob and Smokey. <p> Maybe its the atheist part of me, but I inherently don't like the idea of this big brother God or as I see it a dictatorship controlling us, I like the idea of humans being responsible for their own fates and actions and knowing that life is limited and precious. <p> I really enjoyed Babylon 5 as a series and in particular series 4, with the older warring races of the Vorlons and Shadows leaving and letting the younger races move on in their own direction. <p> For those who have seen Babylon 5, you can see through my comments that Jacob and Smokey could be like the Vorlons and the Shadows. <p> Saying all that, I still loved the final season, the purgatory idea, not a fan of, but for me as I said before its an interesting setting to help examine the issues of loss, forgiveness, love etc <p> Really really miss Lost

  • July 23, 2010, 4:07 a.m. CST

    Star Trek - the 'gold standard'

    by kwisatzhaderach

    Wow. Seriously?

  • July 23, 2010, 4:30 a.m. CST

    "Star Trek - the 'gold standard'"

    by buggerbugger

    Hahahahaha, Christing fucking hell.

  • July 23, 2010, 4:52 a.m. CST

    All the Lost finale needed

    by henrydalton

    Was a point where Jack is given a choice, explicitly, between finding out the secrets of the island, or saving the lives of everyone on it/preserving their relationships etc. That's what I think they were going for with the finale when they say 'the mystery didn't matter, it was the characters that were important' - and I actually think that's a clever way to get out of the narrative impossibility they set themselves up with. But they didn't hone in on that idea enough in the finale, if at all (see the increasingly escalating gobbledegook about the giant island butt plug etc) - they needed to focus on that, and it could've been a truly brilliant finale that wrapped things up satisfactorily without having to explain everything ever, AND made you realise how much the characters meant to you. But they didn't do that, they dropped the ball on it, and it was incredibly frustrating.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:52 a.m. CST

    Miyamoto_Musashi and henrydalton

    by Jayemel

    First, henrydalton, the reason Jack wasn't given such a choice is the entire point of his arc. His death is tragic, don't you think otherwise. Jacob is the modern misapplication of faith which seeks to control lives (according to the show). <p> Miyamoto_Musashi, if accepting the premise of the flashsideways (which I think needed to be done to keep the mechanics of the show clever and consistent), I agree with this that you said: "I originally thought the Flash sideways was a new reality, a reality without the influence of Jacob or Smokey" <p> I however, did not think it was an epilogue. I thought it was about what you said and the mirror moments were metaphors for them worrying about themselves first/controlling their own lives, rather than someone controlling their lives for them. <p> How would I have ended the flashsideways? I think the greatest missed opportunity was in the Widmore/Desmond story where Desmond said "I understand now." The parallel universe would have been created by the bomb. The "enlightenment moments" would have made the characters the same in both universes. Each enlightenment moment would have fueled a key decision in the original universe. The final one being Jack passing the torch to Hurley. The last time we see the parallel universe is when Locke wakes up after Jack fixed him (bringing closure to that story). Everything else happens exactly the same in the original universe. <p> This would have made a few things make more sense: <p> -Widmore's death in that he was trying to stop both Jacob and the MiB. <p> -Kate's enlightenment moment could have happened right before she killed Smokey, explaining that she no longer felt guilty about breaking the laws of society because she believed she was following proper morality. <p> -Ben's redemption would have actually been redemptive, rather than him feeling guilty and alone so we sympathize with him. <p> -Hurley would actually be a smart business leader, so him being the protector would make more sense. <p> But, Miyamoto_Musashi, like you, I also an atheist. We have to remember that the writers were trying to mediate the theme of their show, science/reason vs faith, not pick a side. And that is where LOST's ultimate mistake was.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:54 a.m. CST

    Also, henrydalton

    by Jayemel

    They didn't say whether the cork actually did what the Crazy Bitch in Across the Sea said it did or not because the cork is a metaphor for God. You either have faith that God is real or you don't. If you have faith, you believe God is necessary to keep the world good. If you don't, you don't believe God is necessary. Notice how you can just substitute the cork for God in my previous two setences.

  • July 23, 2010, 6:18 a.m. CST

    Jayemel

    by henrydalton

    Sure, but the cork was not explained enough in the reality of the show, metaphor or not. You're saying the themes (science v faith) were more important to the creators, and the creators are saying the characters were more important. And reaching for metaphors doesn't hide the fact that by trying to have their cake and eat it (amp up the unexplained island stuff, again, metaphors or not) AND say that the island mysteries don't matter and the character relationships were the key thing all along, the finale ended up uneven, and unsatisfying. I totally stand by what I said in my first post.

  • July 23, 2010, 6:39 a.m. CST

    Henrydalton

    by Jayemel

    You're confusing theme with resolution. <p> There was nothing else to explain about the cork. It either needed to be plugged in to keep the world good or it didn't matter. That was all that was left to be explained about it. <p> The resolution of the theme was the emphasis of the character's relationships. That was the re-definition of faith: not to control people's lives, but to tell them they're good. <p> LOST was a character based show from S1. In fact, it was more character based in S1, much more so. <p> I think the finale failed as well, but that's because the ultimate philosophic resolution was internally contradictory, which necessitated an ending that emotionally jerked off the writers and fans.

  • July 23, 2010, 6:54 a.m. CST

    Jayemel

    by henrydalton

    I'm not confusing theme and resolution - resolution encompasses theme, and character. The cork was just an example in my post of the many, many unexplained 'island mysteries' - I just chose that one because you'd mentioned it previously and because it was especially pertinent as it's introduced so late in the game and is given apparent great importance, despite so little being explained about what it is. "It either needed to be plugged in to keep the world good or it didn't matter. That was all that was left to be explained about it." - It sounds rather like YOU'RE confusing theme and resolution (that's just so I can explain myself, I'm not trying to start a retarded message board flame war). My whole point was that the finale didn't know whether to be one thing or the other - once they'd decided they couldn't logically explain the island mysteries, they teetered between making those mysteries more metaphorical than ever before (with the plug etc), and simultaneously trying to say that the characters and their relationships were the important thing. Now, if they'd struck that balance right, really plunged the island scenes into increasingly surreal metaphor whilst making the audience hold on to the characters - then it could have been truly great. But, in my opinion, it didn't - it fumbled it and became overly confused with what it wanted to be (things like Jack's father explicitly saying 'everything on the island was real' only exacerbates that). Anyway, looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree - I was just frustrated that the finale came so close to pulling off a great rug-pull like that but couldn't do it. I want a finale that, in its resolution, wraps up both theme AND character in a way that makes you feel satisfied after watching it (which is why I thought the idea of revealing that the theme IS the characters could be so clever). I don't want a finale that just makes you increasingly frustrated and gets a million amateur (and professional) theorists and analysts sifting through the wreckage to try to convince people that it was actually fulfilling to the series.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:06 a.m. CST

    henrydalton & Jayemel

    by fat_rancor_keeper

    Awesome posts and excellent points coming from both sides. I'd love to read both of your thoughts on the Sopranos finale.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:08 a.m. CST

    What must Zak Penn make of this?

    by Nice Marmot

    Who gives a flying fuck?

  • July 23, 2010, 7:09 a.m. CST

    fat_rancor_keeper

    by henrydalton

    Thanks :) And I'm a total sucker for Journey so it automatically got a pass ;)

  • July 23, 2010, 7:10 a.m. CST

    Norton still in Avengers?

    by TheManWhoCan

    any news????????? 24th (tommorrow) is when we find out for sure!?!

  • July 23, 2010, 7:15 a.m. CST

    No one had guts to asked about Ed Norton firing?

    by HollywoodHellraiser

    Sounds like geek business as usual!

  • July 23, 2010, 7:32 a.m. CST

    Dead on post Hollywood

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 7:41 a.m. CST

    Too many tights equal failure

    by leo54304

    My point being, when was the last time a good supers movie was made that featured more than one good/bad guy? Multiple capes equal failure. You could say DK but Two Face was almost an afterthought so I don't include that in my criteria. Whedon is good at ensemble casts and I have hopes but the odds are against him--a supers team movie is just too damn big. Glad he's rewritting the "script" by Penn, that guy is death to any movie. Whedon probally read a few pages and realized it was about as good as generic toilet paper.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:47 a.m. CST

    Why are a lot of people

    by Thommoth

    assuming Captain America is a hard sell outside of the US? He is an Iconic comic book character known World-Wide. The assumption that any one outside of the states will have no interest in the movie is ridiculous.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:48 a.m. CST

    Whedon was a writer on Roseanne tv show

    by leo54304

    Said she never bothered to know the names of the shows writers, just called them by numbers. Think she even gave them shirts with numbers on them. Read about it in EW.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:53 a.m. CST

    Black Widow so out of place in this movie

    by leo54304

    Character is film friendly (believable costume, fight scenes easy, origin, etc) but not in a movie like this. Maybe Marvel wants to use her appearances in IM and avengers to springboard her into own movie. Problem is was underused in IM and in avengers she's just there to fill the need for a female. BTW her series is excellent and recommend it.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:58 a.m. CST

    Eliza Dushku as BW far better choice

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 8:01 a.m. CST

    Nice Marmot

    by puto tenax

    Exactly. I hope Whedon threw the script away.

  • July 23, 2010, 8:08 a.m. CST

    French treat our WW2 vets better than us

    by leo54304

    and every year invite them to honor them for their service. GB,Germany treat them pretty good too. Rest of world still remembers when US stepped up and became the arsenal of democracy. The CA movie spotlights that dark time for the world and hopefully remind the world of just what the US did to help defeat Hitler.

  • July 23, 2010, 8:18 a.m. CST

    For Ca movie I want:

    by leo54304

    at least one Saving Pvt Ryan type combat scene (even if its just squad level), frankenstein type castle with some mad science stuff going on, a good CA speech about freedom, a scary Red Skull, Raiders Lost Ark pacing and deathtraps. Am I going to get any of this? No, but I can dream.

  • July 23, 2010, 8:28 a.m. CST

    CA movie had too many origins

    by leo54304

    You've got caps,Bucky,invaders,then each individual invader,Skull and all the supporting cast. Starting to think Whedon might have easier as director of the avengers.

  • July 23, 2010, 8:58 a.m. CST

    I'll say this about Joss...

    by conspiracy

    he is "Hollywood smart" enough to know that Abrams is the current "It" girl with the studios, and rims his starfish accordingly.</p><p> JJ's Trek as "the Gold Standard"; Really? Entertaining...but 14k gold at best.

  • July 23, 2010, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Avengers will be like Burton's Planet of the Apes, in that

    by CreasyBear

    it will be a big-budget-summer-movie with no discernible style from the director. It will simply be a movie. There are too many producers and studio people involved in this for it to turn into something distinctive, whether that makes you happy or sad. I don't think those of you worried about "Buffy-speak" / pop culture smarm have anything to worry about. I guarantee that no matter who they got to direct, you wouldn't see a "stamp" of the director in any obvious way.

  • July 23, 2010, 9:23 a.m. CST

    @slder78

    by Mooly

    I still enjoy the original Buffy movie to this very day. But if you don't believe the whole "studio interference" line, then feel free to check out the comic version, based on Whedon's original script which came out not too long ago. Also, I just watched Toy Story recently and Whedon's name was certainly on the credits and he was an Academy Award for his involvement. So that says more about his role in the writing than your own made up theory. Also, I think it is hypocritical to act like he can't write when he has decades of extremely successful TV writing under his belt. Clearly that is proof the guy can write. But I will give you Firefly...that movie certainly DID feel like a TV show and there is no excuse for the ridiculous, bad cliche final battle. I don't care if that was from studio involvement, Whedon should have put his foot down.

  • July 23, 2010, 9:23 a.m. CST

    No reference at all to Norton then?

    by papersand

    Shame.

  • July 23, 2010, 9:35 a.m. CST

    Video of the Panel

    by buffywrestling

    I haven't watched this yet as I'm at work but I thought I'd link it for those interested. Joss supposedly uses the word "painterly". Yes, "painterly". And he curses :) <p> http://is.gd/dDoov

  • July 23, 2010, 9:40 a.m. CST

    Fuck Fox

    by Captain RawBeard

    I loved Firefly and enjoyed Serenity but that series needed at least 2 or 3 more Seasons, but Fox cancelled it WAY to soon and will forever be scum in my eyes.<br> <br> BUT then Whedon goes back to them for Dollhouse which wasn't as good as Firefly but still had some cool concepts (and also had the sexy Eliza Dushku). <br> <br> I think he should man up and tell Fox to go fuck themselves and go fully independent and create another show, as I agree he works better in TV than in Film

  • July 23, 2010, 10:02 a.m. CST

    slder78 WTF?

    by CullenisPrime

    No writing credit for Toy Story? Do you do any research before posting?

  • July 23, 2010, 10:36 a.m. CST

    Henrydalton

    by The Bicycle Sharer

    Fantastic posts. Agree with you wholeheartedly. And I get a little fucking tired of the opposite point of view ("Lost was the best-est, most spectacularly awesome show EVAH and the final season and last episode were the greatest EVAH!!!") telling the other side that they "don't get it" or are confusing theme and resolution, as if the other side is three years-old. Henrydalton posted clearly and eloquently and made a very valid point. Well done, sir.

  • July 23, 2010, 10:44 a.m. CST

    Thommoth

    by The Bicycle Sharer

    The assumption is that AMERICA is hated (Bush, Iraq, support for Israel, support for dictatorial regimes, etc.). Therefore, Captain AMERICA will be hated. Especially, if he's all "rah-rah, the AMERICAN way! We're the best! We're hear to save you pussy English and French!" It's the other side's contention that the American BRAND is despised. I ain't saying I agree with it (actually, I'm unsure and ambivalent), but that's the idea. Surely, you can understand at least the theory, right? Put another way - how would a Captain Britain movie do over here? Or Lieutenant Gaul? Colonel Russia? Hauptmann Deutschland?

  • July 23, 2010, 10:47 a.m. CST

    LOL! The last post just got me thinking 'bout "multi-culturalis

    by The Bicycle Sharer

    Ever notice that with "multi-culturalism," Americans are expected to extend every courtesy and respect to other nations and cultures AND understand why they wouldn't/shouldn't do the same for us (American imperialist aggression, etc.)? Just... funny, that's all. Okay, sorry. Back to the topic, which is, Joss Whedon makes me extremely fucking nervous on this, but, fuck it (butt fuck it!), at least I'll be seeing a big-budget, big screen Avengers movie and that's gotta count for something.

  • July 23, 2010, 10:57 a.m. CST

    JJ Abrams produce, Whedon-scripted, EXPENDABLES 2

    by rightarm4Rosario

    Wait for it!

  • July 23, 2010, 10:58 a.m. CST

    scottpilgrimfan

    by SpawnofAchilles

    =obvious troll

  • July 23, 2010, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Black Widow...

    by carlotta_valdes

    ...if you're going use her for any dramatic purposes, rehire Emily Blunt (original choice) a real actress. It's in the eyes, and scarjo is just a curvy blank slate of a space holder as far as I'm concerned.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:08 a.m. CST

    SCOTTPILGRIMFAN

    by thx185

    Please stop beating around the bush and say how you feel.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Carlotta so right about Emily Blunt

    by leo54304

    European beauty, talented actress, perfect. Too bad that scheduling prevented her from taking the role as it was offered to her. 2d choice still is Eliza Dushku.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:29 a.m. CST

    Scarlett was good in Lost in Translation though

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 11:30 a.m. CST

    has Herc got a little over excited yet ?

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    His god Joss mentioned several times

  • July 23, 2010, 11:33 a.m. CST

    leo

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    Scarlet was brilliant in Lost in Translation, but it was before she got a bit of an ego. <br />For me she looks very bangable (and this coming from a guy with an asian girl fetish), but she isnt the Black Widow I know.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:35 a.m. CST

    why are people going for Eliza

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    she is very hot, but she is a terrible actress, she was clearly out of her depth in Dollhouse. Whatever the criticisms of that show my biggest was that the role was beyond Eliza and more for Amy. <p><br />A Faith tv series that would be perfect for Eliza.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:37 a.m. CST

    She is so wrong for Widow part absolutely

    by leo54304

    And right about going downhill after translation. Right now she and Kristin Stewart from Twilight are sisters separated at birth. Both are zombie like in their performances which is sad when you consider the good roles they get.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:51 a.m. CST

    undercovers look like pure shit.

    by Stalkeye

    I give this series three weeks. and i'm being generous.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:53 a.m. CST

    Who should I hate more...?

    by Stalkeye

    Zakk Penn or Bob Orci?<p>Answer: Both of those fucking hacks.My Cats could bang out better scripts that those two shitheads.<p>Seriously

  • July 23, 2010, 11:56 a.m. CST

    Undercovers, network TV

    by Miyamoto_Musashi

    I loved Lost but I can kind of get the criticisms, but what it wasn't was boring predictble tv. <br />There isnt a lot of ambitious "arc" tv left on the network channels, bring it on AMC and the like

  • July 23, 2010, 12:18 p.m. CST

    Whedon isn't worthy of carrying Abrams' CC fanny pack.

    by AnnoyYou

    Whedon comes off as his usual passive-aggressive but still self-aggrandizing self here, making Abrams seem cool and smart in comparison. I've seen Whedon at CC - he does the same tired old shtick ("blah blah comics Buffy whoops I failed miserably at something Dushku is a piece, etc.") every time, much like Kevin Smith. Feh.

  • July 23, 2010, 12:46 p.m. CST

    Leo, we are in agreement...

    by carlotta_valdes

    ...on Kristin Stewart as well, and she's getting so many good roles due to those high profile Twilight 'films'. She seemed better as a child actor in Panic Room than anything else. Haven't seen her as Joan Jett (and probably won't), but I did see Adventure Land and that's where the hate began. If you consider yourself an actress, DO something onscreen!...what's with all the moping?

  • July 23, 2010, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Learned nothing from this panel

    by donkingkong

    Guess you'd have to been there to appreciate their presence or something

  • July 23, 2010, 2:02 p.m. CST

    gotta say

    by oisin5199

    AICN's characterization of these quotes don't really work. They sound completely different in context and out of Joss and JJ's mouths. Watch the link, if you really want to get a sense of what they're saying. And it is interesting.

  • July 23, 2010, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Has Whedon ever accepted fault for his own mistakes?

    by Tall_Boy66

    I seem to be picking up on a theme from him. Alien Resurrection: "It was the directors and the actor's fault!" Firefly/Dollhouse: "It was Fox's fault!" Serenity: "It was the studio's fault!" His comics being late: "It was the artist's fault!" He ever flat-out admitted that he ever screwed up?

  • July 23, 2010, 3:23 p.m. CST

    Scarlett Johansson...

    by FoolishFool

    Has about as much presence as a cardboard cut-out of herself. Possibly less. I just hope to god they recast her as Black Widow. She brings less than nothing to the the character, just like she does with every character she "plays."

  • July 23, 2010, 3:53 p.m. CST

    New Charlies Angels movie to star:

    by leo54304

    Scarlett Johansson, Kristin Stewart and Megan Fox

  • July 23, 2010, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Welcome to the movement FoolishFool, and Leo54304...

    by carlotta_valdes

    ...has now conjured the most profound horror my mind's eye did not. My future nightmare's thank you.

  • July 23, 2010, 4:04 p.m. CST

    make that...

    by carlotta_valdes

    nightmares.

  • July 23, 2010, 4:53 p.m. CST

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 4:57 p.m. CST

    Whedons did time in hell, was writer on Roseanne

    by leo54304

    Commented on it earlier but Whedon was a writer on her show and she was the devil I guess. Didn't bother or want to know the wriiters name, just addressed as numbers (1,2,3). Don't if writers did this or Roseanne did but at storywriting meetings, writers started wearing shirts with numbers. Either as a joke or to help Roseanne remember who each was. Read it in EW.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:01 p.m. CST

    Carlotta, you know they're doing a sequel to

    by leo54304

    Jennifers Body? Psyche. Fortunately that movie and Hex bombed so badly that her marketability is near bottom. I mean she got married just to show some stability in her personal life.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:04 p.m. CST

    Fristen Stewart is on borrowed time too

    by leo54304

    Sure the twilight movies are making big bucks but not because of her. Hollywood suits know it. Her other roles haven't gotten much critical praise or made money.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:04 p.m. CST

    Kristen Stewart in zombieland 2 role of a lifetime

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 5:16 p.m. CST

    M.A.S.K. must be stopped!...

    by carlotta_valdes

    M.egan, A.niston, S.carlett and K.ristin must all fall for the sake of credible cinema!!! Wooden acting cannot exist in this Dojo.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:17 p.m. CST

    or shall i say...

    by carlotta_valdes

    ...ANUSton.

  • July 23, 2010, 5:22 p.m. CST

    Good one, they need a good SMAK though

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 5:57 p.m. CST

    Bond vs the ladies of MASK awesome!!

    by leo54304

    Course even Bond would be pushed to make those ladies look alive in bed. Kristen to Bond: I know what you are. Bond:Say it Kristen: zzzzz

  • July 23, 2010, 5:58 p.m. CST

    Nathan Fillion just showed up at the Joss

    by buffywrestling

    panel & they totally teased the audience about him being cast as Ant Man. *Dammit*

  • July 23, 2010, 6:26 p.m. CST

    The last time Lost and Dollhouse will be in the

    by RPLocke

    same room.

  • July 23, 2010, 6:48 p.m. CST

    henrydalton, fat_rancor_keeper, & The Bicycle Sharer

    by Jayemel

    henrydalton: Could you please point to specifics in the episode as to what you didn't like? Right now I am having a hard time grasping your argument. All I really have an impression of right now is that you dodn't like it. <p> fat_rancor_keeper: I've never seen an episode of the Sopranos, so I can't help you there. <p> The Bicycle Sharer: While I think the the Pilot through What They Did For is the greatest TV ever, I also think The End was a major misstep. Still, I think that most people don't "get" The End, not because they dislike it, but because they don't talk about the things that matter: Jack's tragic death, the passing of the torch to Hurley, Ben becoming #2, "I believe in you, dude," and "No one can tell you why you're here, Kate." Then again, most people don't get most things about life, and I just have conversations to share what I know.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:15 p.m. CST

    Darkcity-HAHAHAHAHHAAHA and Ha

    by leo54304

    Bond knows every woman needs a slap now and then (especially my new boss-whew), helps them keep things in perspective. A good slap, kiss on the cheek and one up the ass and all is well what?. Reason I nailed Maggie the naggie is after that dead horse Kristen, I thought , "What the hell, already bagged one dead horse why not another?" Cheers old chap.

  • July 23, 2010, 7:16 p.m. CST

    My name is Stewart, Kristen zzzzzzzzzz

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 7:17 p.m. CST

    007 is how many seconds I can stay awake

    by leo54304

  • July 23, 2010, 8:25 p.m. CST

    I hope Kristen

    by leo54304

    does well and improves (a lot) her acting skills. One thing that Kristen has going for her is shes never in the tabloids for drugs, booze,etc. If she smart enough to not do those things at her age, she could be something special. Maybe reason she's sleepwalking in twilight is because well, shes bored.

  • July 23, 2010, 9:02 p.m. CST

    Just a guess

    by Jayemel

    I haven't seen the movies or anything, but I think Kristen Stewart is "sleepwalking" through Twilight because that's the character.

  • July 23, 2010, 9:04 p.m. CST

    Sweet update!!!

    by buffywrestling

    So Joss had this panel yesterday, his own panel today [also a Dark Horse signing], then the Marvel panel tomorrow. Plus he's producing the documentary with Harry that Spurlock is directing during the con. <p> Wasn't he supposed to disappear after Dollhouse was cancelled? [I'm going to let lockesbrokenleg/skywalkerfamily field that one.]

  • July 23, 2010, 9:06 p.m. CST

    New name for people who call 3d a fad.

    by gotilk

    Faddots.

  • July 23, 2010, 10:05 p.m. CST

    How's that Joss Whedon documentary going

    by RPLocke

    No one asked him about that?

  • July 23, 2010, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Other than his panel today being filmed?

    by buffywrestling

    No, no one asked him about the many cameras present filming in the press line.

  • July 23, 2010, 10:41 p.m. CST

    Just watching the video -

    by buffywrestling

    6000 people in that Hall. It's like a rock concert!

  • July 23, 2010, 10:49 p.m. CST

    JJ is adorable

    by buffywrestling

    I mean seriously cute. I want to hang him on a string from my cellphone.

  • July 23, 2010, 11:21 p.m. CST

    I guess Fillion showing up is probably a hint.

    by HollywoodHellraiser

    I knew Joss would cast some people from his tv series!<p>Sheesh, Avengers is going to be a big pile and this coming from a fan of Joss!

  • July 23, 2010, 11:29 p.m. CST

    No dude....it was a joke! A literal tease.

    by buffywrestling

    Nathan came up to the mic as a fan in disguise - hat, mustache - and asked Joss who his favorite actor was. Joss said "Nathan Fillion", who then took off his disguise. Then Joss said he had cast Nathan as AntMan in the Avengers...*pause for reaction*...except he never shows up in the movie. *wah-wah*

  • July 24, 2010, 12:07 a.m. CST

    THANK GOD!!!

    by HollywoodHellraiser

    As if Avengers movie don't already have it problems!

  • July 24, 2010, 3:42 a.m. CST

    What problems?

    by buffywrestling

    No really - what serious problems have there been that are not typical fanboy backlash?

  • July 24, 2010, 4:09 a.m. CST

    Joss' second panel of Comic-Con

    by buffywrestling

    - Just Joss! - is now on youtube <p> http://goo.gl/fb/kykuq

  • July 24, 2010, 4:31 a.m. CST

    The guy could be a stand-up comedian

    by buffywrestling

    He has a rhythm in speaking as well.

  • July 24, 2010, 12:28 p.m. CST

    Tall_Boy66

    by oisin5199

    Funny, I thought Whedon was one of the most self-effacing people in Hollywood, constantly making fun of himself and the mistakes he's made. Thus, the joke about burying the alien franchise.

  • July 24, 2010, 2:54 p.m. CST

    No Buffy news, I'm out

    by Tikidonkeypunch