Starz Fired Up for a New Series of the BBC's Hit Franchise 'Torchwood' New Installment From BBC Worldwide Productions to Add To Starz' Premium Programming Lineup in Summer of 2011 Key Cast - John Barrowman (Capt. Jack), Eve Myles (Gwen) - To Return for the Next Installment, Along With New Faces LOS ANGELES, June 7 -- Starz Entertainment has acquired U.S. television rights to the next installment of the BBC's audience sensation "Torchwood," developed and produced by BBC Worldwide Productions. Starz will debut the 10-episode series exclusively in the U.S., and BBC One will debut it in the U.K., both in summer, 2011. This is a co-production between Starz, BBC Cymru Wales and BBC Worldwide, and BBC Worldwide will distribute the show outside the U.S. The deal was jointly announced today by Starz, LLC President and CEO Chris Albrecht and BBC Worldwide Productions EVP Jane Tranter. The stars of the previous versions of "Torchwood," notably John Barrowman (Capt. Jack Harkness) and Eve Myles (Gwen Cooper), will return for the new version. Additional key cast, reflecting the more international scope of the series, will be announced soon. "Torchwood" is a drama that puts extraterrestrial threats into a very real world, and asks how humanity deals with the danger - while fighting mankind's darkest instincts. The series' previous three seasons aired on BBC America in the U.S. and garnered record-breaking ratings for the network. Created by visionary writer/producer Russell T Davies, "Torchwood" has to date been located primarily in Cardiff, Wales. The new series will allow Davies and his writing team to tell a more explosive and global story, one that takes advantage of the unlimited narrative opportunities of a premium television service like Starz. Davies and BBC Worldwide Productions' SVP Scripted Julie Gardner return as executive producers, with Davies also serving as show-runner for the new "Torchwood." "We're committed to programming exceptional television that is entertaining, imaginative and provides a premium TV experience, and by any measure the new concept for 'Torchwood' fits that mandate," Starz, LLC, President and CEO Chris Albrecht said. "I've been part of successful partnerships with Jane Tranter and the BBC previously, and I'm very much looking forward to working with them again." "'Torchwood' has attracted remarkable attention and loyalty in both the UK and U.S., and in this new partnership with Starz, the next chapter will not only reward our current fans, but also introduce new viewers to the most impressive installment yet," said Jane Tranter, EVP, BBC Worldwide Productions. "Chris Albrecht and his team are committed to delivering quality premium programming to their subscribers, also a core attribute of the BBC, and we are excited to be working with them as the 'Torchwood' adventure continues." "Russell, Jane and Julie came to us with a compelling vision for the evolution of the 'Torchwood' saga that really takes the story into whole new areas," added Carmi Zlotnik, Managing Director of Starz Media � the production and development division of Starz. "The compelling story and characters this trio created provide a strong template for driving this narrative in exciting ways." Ben Stephenson, Controller, BBC Drama Commissioning said: "We have a long history of working with many U.S. networks, but it is incredibly exciting to be working with Starz for the first time, as well as to be reunited with the best of British in Russell, Jane and Julie. 'Torchwood' will burst back onto the screen with a shocking and moving story with global stakes and locations that will make it feel bigger and bolder than ever" "Torchwood" is the latest piece of notable programming from Starz. It follows on the heels of the recently concluded first season of the epic "Spartacus: Blood and Sand," this summer's highly anticipated event series "The Pillars of the Earth," based on author Ken Follett's international bestseller, and the recently announced series "Camelot," which Starz is co-producing with GK-TV and will air early in 2011. "Torchwood" originally debuted in the UK on BBC One in 2006. All five episodes of "Torchwood: Children of Earth" reached the Top 10 list in TV Episodes across the entire iTunes TV Store, with episode 1 of the series reaching the top spot the week of launch in August, 2009. About Starz Entertainment Starz Entertainment, LLC, is a premium movie and original programming entertainment service provider operating in the United States. The company offers 16 premium channels including the flagship Starz� and Encore� brands with approximately 17.1 million and 31.1 million subscribers respectively. Starz Entertainment airs in total more than 1,000 movies and original series every month across its pay TV channels and offers advanced services including Starz HD, Encore HD, Starz On Demand, Encore On Demand, MoviePlex On Demand, Starz HD On Demand, Encore HD On Demand, MoviePlex HD On Demand, and Starz Play. Starz Entertainment (www.starz.com) is an operating unit of Starz, LLC, which is a controlled subsidiary of Liberty Media Corporation, and is attributed to Liberty Starz (Nasdaq: LSTZA), a tracking stock group of Liberty Media Corporation. About BBC Worldwide Productions BBC Worldwide is the main commercial arm and wholly owned subsidiary of British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC). In the U.S., BBC Worldwide Productions, one of BBC Worldwide's seven core businesses, is based in Los Angeles and New York. It is responsible for the smash hit Dancing with the Stars and develops scripted and non-scripted projects for U.S. cable and broadcast networks.
June 8, 2010, 12:52 p.m. CST
and new Red Dwarf too
June 8, 2010, 12:55 p.m. CST
Torchwood is a lot of fun.
June 8, 2010, 12:58 p.m. CST
If it's anything like the last series, Children of Earth, then it should make for some damn good TV. If it's anything like the first two series, then good God it'll be painful to watch.
June 8, 2010, 1 p.m. CST
by jon pertwee
now i know why it'll be on starz - full frontal male nudity and lots of gay sex with humans and aliens.
June 8, 2010, 1:01 p.m. CST
by tj donkey show
I'm a big fan of the show. It actually got me give a shit about Dr Who. I wonder which show had more "Man Kissing", Torchwood or Six Feet Under?
June 8, 2010, 1:03 p.m. CST
Why won't they just let this piece of shit just die, consigning Barrowman and his cheesy fucking Max Headroom face to the realm of light entertainment where he belongs?
June 8, 2010, 1:06 p.m. CST
but in the meantime, why has no one reviewed the Serenity one-shot comic about Wash? Written by Patton Oswalt? I thought if there was any news about Whedon or Oswalt, it would be here. Slipping, Herc?
June 8, 2010, 1:06 p.m. CST
But apparently, BBC America's idiotic new head honcho thinks American-produced reality shows make more sense. Asswipe...
June 8, 2010, 1:15 p.m. CST
Children of Earth was great. It clearly delineated the methods Jack would use to solve a problem compared to the doctor. The Doctor seemed morally superior until The End Of Time. The Doctor is one Time Lord NOT to be fucked with
June 8, 2010, 1:15 p.m. CST
Capt Jack Harkness had to go check it out...
June 8, 2010, 1:21 p.m. CST
Unfortunately, we'll probably get Captain Jack full frontal before we get a glimpse of Eve's boobs.
June 8, 2010, 1:26 p.m. CST
Redeemed himself with Children of Earth. I'll be interested to see how this develops - I hope it keeps the darker tone and the moral ambiguity.
June 8, 2010, 1:35 p.m. CST
Why? So we can get another chopped up, edited and censored version? It's a shame that an American cable TV channel can't air the same show that airs on the BBC without hacking it up. I was so glad that they showed the show uncut on HDNet for a while. I'm very happy about Starz bringing back on the real Torchwood.
June 8, 2010, 1:39 p.m. CST
June 8, 2010, 1:47 p.m. CST
The only better thing that could have happened was if it were to be produced for Showtime instead... but I guess Starz! will do
June 8, 2010, 1:55 p.m. CST
John Barrowman is just not that good an actor. There. Someone finally said it. He's just not strong enough to be the lead in a show. And Russell Davies writing is so melodramatic, weak, full of holes and generally ridiculous. Let this die.
June 8, 2010, 1:58 p.m. CST
about Eve Myles. And she leaves Barrowman in the dirt in the acting dept. Not like that's hard to do.
June 8, 2010, 2:07 p.m. CST
by Red Ned Lynch
...doesn't quite rise to the level of exciting, though.
June 8, 2010, 2:26 p.m. CST
The fucker is everywhere. He's almost up there with Brand and Corden now.
June 8, 2010, 2:26 p.m. CST
Or will they write him out via divorce or death by alien? I kind of liked the fact that he survived the series so far.
June 8, 2010, 2:28 p.m. CST
I guess, I will be watching it online.
June 8, 2010, 2:53 p.m. CST
Now that the new Doctor is dealing with the 'erasure' of everything that happened in the previous season, will Torchwood do the same, or will they continue to branch into the old canon? Jack is a major player in the old series, so it would be interesting if he was suddenly facing a new reality that he doesn't belong in.
June 8, 2010, 3:12 p.m. CST
He's more of a cock and balls man, dontchaknow?
June 8, 2010, 3:14 p.m. CST
If this like any of the earlier Torchwood stuff, I'll be fucking switching off in disgust.<p>Children Of Earth: Eight Doctors Out Of Ten<p>Rest Of Torchwood: Two Doctors Out Of Ten
June 8, 2010, 3:17 p.m. CST
But I agree completely with him.
June 8, 2010, 3:17 p.m. CST
Turn up your volume!
June 8, 2010, 3:18 p.m. CST
Would be funny if the new season of Torchwood featured a gay bar called "The Pandorica" opening.<p>Or maybe it wouldn't.
June 8, 2010, 3:19 p.m. CST
I wonder if The Doctor will show up? I mean, he's going to be in RTD's Sarah Jane Adventures thingy soon, isn't he?
June 8, 2010, 3:20 p.m. CST
It's both a prequel and a sequel!
June 8, 2010, 3:21 p.m. CST
Well, at least it's on Starz. They made "Sparticus" and that show was fucking excellent.
June 8, 2010, 3:23 p.m. CST
I'm starting to think you're in love with Patton Oswalt, Herc.<p>You need to start showin' some love to the ladies around here or people will start lookin' at you all funny.
June 8, 2010, 3:24 p.m. CST
That would be interesting.
June 8, 2010, 3:31 p.m. CST
...it'll follow the improvement curve the show's been on. First series was patchy at best, second far better overall and the miniseries was one of the best bits of british sci-fi in recent years. Barrowman's not a great actor by any stretch but he does okay and if they're smart they'll hire some good support to compensate. Personally I'd like to see them bring James Marsters back as John Hart as a regular, but that's probably unlikely
June 8, 2010, 3:44 p.m. CST
Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang was a phenomenal episode. For so many reasons but as much as I love Captain Jack I want Captain John Heart. They get him and I will subscribe to Starz.
June 8, 2010, 3:46 p.m. CST
Thanks for the credit... 2 hourrs after I send you a link about this DAYS OLD news and then you post it without the slightest bit of mention.
June 8, 2010, 4:05 p.m. CST
TORCHWOOD IS BACK, BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 8, 2010, 4:30 p.m. CST
Everyone, repeat after me, "THANK YOU, JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 8, 2010, 4:37 p.m. CST
At least the Amerrcan Jesus. Does the UK Jesus hate fags, too? <br><br>In any case, if he's to be thanked for this, then by all means.. Thank you Jesus as axel1 here put it.
June 8, 2010, 4:41 p.m. CST
I see no other mention of it here. Are we talking Firefly Serenity? Which Oswalt? Patton? Is it a comic? A TV movie? A film? Does it relate to <br><br> 1. A comment here? I've looked it over.. nada.<br><br> 2. Another article here? I checked. Nada.<br><br>or<br> 3. Something I missed from far away and long ago and I'm not here 24/7 so I missed it and I have now lost all geek cred because I missed one article.
June 8, 2010, 4:42 p.m. CST
June 8, 2010, 4:44 p.m. CST
Except in the south, where it's passed on like knitting or woodcutting from generation to generation. Sorry south. Live with it or stand up against it. It's a stereotype for a reason.
June 8, 2010, 4:49 p.m. CST
This great new thing called google helped me out.
June 8, 2010, 4:52 p.m. CST
I agree Barrowman's not that great of an actor, but I have to say he's done WAY better in Torchwood than Doctor Who.
June 8, 2010, 4:55 p.m. CST
but he's Jack. Period. And for that part, he's perfect.
June 8, 2010, 4:57 p.m. CST
Jack's an awesome character, and I would rather Barrowman stick with the role than throw someone else into it with no explanation. Like it or not, we're stuck with him :)
June 8, 2010, 4:58 p.m. CST
But if he's such a talentless hack then how did he manage to resurrect a show that had been dead as a doornail for well over a decade and restore it to a national institution? I'm not saying he's a genius or anything but he deserves some credit.
June 8, 2010, 5:52 p.m. CST
The Torchwood universe is part and parcel of The Doctor's. There's no explanation for Jack without it. I hope they find ways to make reference like crazy.
June 8, 2010, 6:26 p.m. CST
... a Torchwood / Sanctuary Corssover episode.
June 8, 2010, 6:49 p.m. CST
June 8, 2010, 6:52 p.m. CST
I caught Sanctuary today for the first time. Didn't get to watch the whole episode (had something to do with some kind of automatic drawing, in sequence turned to animation, drawing a past event) but it was NOT as bad as I'd assumed it was. I'll be going back again to watch a whole episode now.
June 8, 2010, 7:54 p.m. CST
Totally subjective opinion here, so knee-jerk flame if you must but I'm copping to personal taste. I felt like Children of Earth was a very cold, un-fun Torchwood. I much preferred the character dynamics in seasons 1 and 2. Sexy fun mixed with horrific sci-fi "humans shouldn't be given space toys because we're like children" danger. And I prefer Torchwood in general to Dr. Who as I never really feel the stakes in Dr. Who. I *enjoy* the Doctor, I just have a harder time caring about what happens on that show.
June 8, 2010, 7:57 p.m. CST
Seriously, take a pill or something. If Jack was a straight chick would you be all over this show? Christ, I'd hate to see you watching an episode of Six Feet Under or Queer as Folk. Would blood spray out of your eyeballs?
June 8, 2010, 11:07 p.m. CST
Hear that whoosh noise? It came from above.
June 9, 2010, 12:17 a.m. CST
by The Dark Shite
It's nothing more than a weak character, invented solely to push Davies' obsessive gay agenda (feel free to call me a homophobe if ya like. It doesn't make the character's origin less true). <p> It honestly doesn't deserve to be linked to something that's as good & been around as long as Doctor Who. Frankly, whenever it reappears it just undoes any good the Doctor Who guys come up with. It tarnishes the Doctor Who universe. They're just on two completely differennt levels, mainly because Davies didn't invent Doctor Who.
June 9, 2010, 12:20 a.m. CST
by The Dark Shite
did I say "Doctor Who" in my comment? 5? Fuck me. I've got a hangover, but there's no excuse for Doctor Whoing all over the fucking place.
June 9, 2010, 12:36 a.m. CST
I thought he was headed to LA to start a Torchwood America for FOX?
June 9, 2010, 12:55 a.m. CST
Martha Jones! She's traveled with The Doctor, she actually is a Dr, she was a member of U.N.I.T, she was instrumental in defeating the Master and she threatened Davros the Osterhagen key (which didn't work,I never said her resume was perfect, just impressive). Most importantly she is very easy on the eyes.
June 9, 2010, 1:15 a.m. CST
....when it's terrible it's beyond awful... <p> Peter Capaldi was all sorts of awesome in Children Of Earth - but I'll give it a shot... Would much prefer Moff written Torchwood though...
June 9, 2010, 2:09 a.m. CST
Martha (along with Mickey) was supposed to have joined Torchwood for Children of Earth but that was rewritten when Freema Agyeman decided to do Law and Order UK instead. And how wonderful, it's the return of the "someone mentioned gay people in a show so obviously it's part of the gay agenda!" argument ~facepalms~ Look, you guys now have Dr Who as a show like all the others where gay people don't exist. You won, congratulations.
June 9, 2010, 3:21 a.m. CST
This, according to Russell T. Davies, himself. That's why it's nothing more that an agenda-driven vanity piece for RTD, rather than decent, story-driven sci-fi. That's why so many Doctor Who fans have a problem with it, while it's supporters blindly scream "homophobia!" And that's why it rightly belongs on the LOGO channel.<p>Seriously, it's a pretty crappy show overall... X-Files For Dummies.
June 9, 2010, 5:16 a.m. CST
Does that make it an agenda-driven vanity piece for straight show-runners? Homophobic morons: please keep running your mouth off while your brain is somewhere else. Makes it easy to know who to ignore.
June 9, 2010, 8:19 a.m. CST
Is their Netflix Deal... this means new Episodes of Torchwood will be on Netflix the day after they air on tv just like Spartacus Blood and Sand and all the rest of Starz's stuff! If it were on BBC America (as with past versions) we in the US wouldn't have a legal internet viewing option. I'm also sure that Starz is willing to put more money into the budget than BBC America could have.
June 9, 2010, 8:23 a.m. CST
Over 90% of the world's population (that would be a majority) is STRAIGHT. Having most characters on television shows be straight simply reflects this basic fact and makes the shows REALISTIC.<p>The fact that Torchwood's creator — who also created Queer as Folk — has made it a POINT to make sure all of Torchwood's characters are gay or bi (completely the contrary to real-life) is what makes Torchwood stand out as a gay agenda-driven show.<p>But feel free to continue to ignore the obvious while you whine.
June 9, 2010, 8:35 a.m. CST
The tones of the two shows jar completely now. They should get out of Cardiff too.
June 9, 2010, 8:45 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
...He absolutely and utterly plagiarised / copied / robbed it off Nigel Kneale. I loved it the first time round when it was called THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION.<P> And RTD can make this as agenda-driven as he wants. WHO is back to where it should be, RTD has NOTHING to do with the main show, and when TORCHWOOD does make it to BBC One - well, my options as to what else to do are almost limitless. I might even go outside and discover what summer feels like in the UK...
June 9, 2010, 8:48 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
Is there ANYWHERE, outside of a gay club, where the ration of LGBT to straight people is as high as it is in TORCHWOOD? There's no reason given for it in the show, yet even Brighton doesn't boast an LGBT-to-straight ration THAT high.<P> TORCHWOOD is wish-fulfilment SF for gay/bi/lesbians who don't deman much from their veiwing. Like plots, decent acting, or even recognisably human characters. Let's be honest, Ianto would have made a very fetching set of shelves for my study, but as a character - dear oh dear...
June 9, 2010, 8:50 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
...That feature people solely based on their straight attraction to each other, and how that is central to the plot. But since I don't watch 90210, GOSSIP GIRL, SEX AND THE CITY (ironically written by a gay guy), THE HILLS, JERSEY SHORE, or any of that other subhuman MTV brain-raping soul-atrophying slurry they push as entertainment, I really don't give a fuck...
June 9, 2010, 8:56 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
"I know hating RTD is considered mandatory, but if he's such a talentless hack then how did he manage to resurrect a show that had been dead as a doornail for well over a decade and restore it to a national institution? I'm not saying he's a genius or anything but he deserves some credit."<P> How? He stated the bleeding obvious, by saying the show needed a decent bidget, lots of money throwing at SFX, and most importantly, he HAD to rip-off BUFFY as much as was humanly possible. Since RTD's nowhere near the writer that Joss Whedon is, the BUFFY bit may have stalled in translation, but basically RTD got the gig because (a) he ticked all the Beeb's PC boxes and (b) he told the producers what the fans have been saying since the end of the McCoy era. The difference? The fans were out here, and RTD was in at the Beeb. Simple as that.<P> Just a shame he didn't have a clause in his contracts requiring ANY of his episodes to make any kind of narrative sense whatsoever...
June 9, 2010, 8:57 a.m. CST
1. How exactly am I whining? You are the one who has a problem with the show. 2. Please don't try to tell me that a show's quality has anything to do with whether or not the characters ethnic/sexual/whatever are in line with real-life statistics. Lots of interesting shows are about people who are minorities. 3. Spud is right. Ianto was as dull as suburban dirt. I'll give ya that.
June 9, 2010, 9:08 a.m. CST
they're so full of bullshit. And that's enough "key cast", thank you. The only one left that's still alive is Gwen's boyfriend, and he was so fucking annoying.
June 9, 2010, 9:13 a.m. CST
I love some of the things he's done with this universe but I've heard that Marvel Studios might be ripping off the UNIT ship 'Valiant' and using it in the Avengers film. All they're doing is changing the name to 'heli-carrier'. Come on Marvel - get your own ideas!
June 9, 2010, 9:45 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
Marvel invented the heli-carrier. It's been used as a SHIELD aerial HQ in the MARVELS ULTIMATES universe for years now. RTD stole that concept and passed it off as his own, as he has done so, so many times before...
June 9, 2010, 9:58 a.m. CST
Spot on, brother.
June 9, 2010, 10:41 a.m. CST
Did you say, "Thank you, Jesus" like everyone else?
June 9, 2010, 11:17 a.m. CST
For example, today I learned that whenever two or more gay and/or bisexual people stand in the same room, it's called an "agenda". <p>I'll have to remember that next time I hang out with my friends. We'll have to get more strictly-straight people to join us so that we can more properly allign ourselves with the "correct" straight/gay ratio.
June 9, 2010, 11:32 a.m. CST
...was based on the "Cloud Base" from "Captain Scarlett" Thought I read that somewhere, that he used that as his basis for the UNIT ship.
June 9, 2010, 12:22 p.m. CST
Its incredibly cliched but really its kind of an obvious next step. Right after we get that vertical take-off jet working.
June 9, 2010, 12:58 p.m. CST
See Byrne's She-Hulk graphic novel.
June 9, 2010, 1:32 p.m. CST
Pedigree isn't necessarily a good thing. Sure, Dr. Who has a great pedigree and has been around for years, but that kind of makes my point for me. I *never* feel like the characters in Dr. Who are in peril. The Doctor can regenerate. He's had endless companions. How am I supposed to invest in that? It's fun, but the stakes are super weak. I'll grant you that Capt. Jack is relatively immortal, but he has an entire team to work with and Torchwood hasn't been on for-freaking-ever. I believe the danger in Torchwood far more than Dr. Who. <p> And although I do feel that The X-Files is slightly superior, at least Torchwood's heightened libido doesn't drag out the "will they-won't they" stupidity of that show. In England if characters wanna fuck they fuck. They don't dance around it for 6 seasons or whatever.
June 9, 2010, 1:34 p.m. CST
Because Freema is f'ing GORGEOUS.
June 9, 2010, 1:49 p.m. CST
She gets brainwashed by aliens from Pervertus to become a stripper in a Los Angeles strip joint, and all of her wages go to Lord Pimpus of Pervertus so he can build a death ray. The Torchwood team go undercover in the joint and have to watch her strip for several nights until her alien masters turn up.<p>The gay characters can do whatever they want but the focus of the episode should be on Martha stripping.
June 9, 2010, 2:06 p.m. CST
...with a pointless Whedonverse comment.Dr Horrible - now out on Blu-ray, guys!"
June 9, 2010, 2:16 p.m. CST
died a few weeks ago.
June 9, 2010, 2:32 p.m. CST
Children of Earth did kick ass, though. I have no doubt that RTD was paying attention to the critical reception it garnered. The reason it was a 5 episode miniseries (which Barrowman bitched about in the media) was that the BBC were unwilling to pay for more of the sub-buffy stuff that was being churned out, so the extra money from Starz can only be a good thing. Oh, and spud mcspud, take it from someone that has actually read a book, that sexual orientation is a lot more complicated than you think it is. Go wiki "Kinsey Report", read it (it won't take you long) and then tell me that RTD's "agenda" was not something that deserves a little exposure in this culture we call pop.
June 9, 2010, 4:44 p.m. CST
I just realized, or rather it just HIT me that it says "next summer". If they keep going at this rate, Cap Effetepants* will be middle aged by the time the next series rolls around. (*affectionate)
June 9, 2010, 4:58 p.m. CST
So what if it IS an agenda? As I see it, having the general public be comfortable with the idea of an action hero who just happens to be gay or bi is an "agenda" worth pursuing considering we (the US) live with a culture that tolerates "god hates fags" mental deficients along with people who still actually talk about how it's a "lifestyle (they) do not APPROVE of" yet "tolerate". As if they think it's still a kind of choice or selection. As if they could wake up on a Tuesday in August and say to themselves.. "today, I choose to deny my desires in favor of self-denial" and have it actually WORK. Just check the headlines for proof that it does NOT work. Look at all the anti-gay legislators and preachers getting caught in bathroom stalls and hotels. If it were as easy as a choice I'd almost say ok.. you can "approve" or "disapprove" without being a bigoted, backward ass. But it's simply not. The path to enlightenment in this regard begins with the act of realizing, truthfully, that it is not a thing to be "approved" of by anyone. No more or less than your relationship with your wife 5 years your junior is or is not.
June 9, 2010, 6:09 p.m. CST
June 9, 2010, 6:17 p.m. CST
I've been watching Who via Netflix, so I haven't quite gotten up to the Matt Smith year yet. Maybe this recent season of Who upped the ante. But for now, I'll take Torchwood, where characters can and do drop at a moment's notice.
June 9, 2010, 6:50 p.m. CST
by spud mcspud
Please! You're calling me on whether or not I fucking read? I motherfucking GUARANTEE I read more than you do...<P> I agree that introducing LGBT characters into mainstream TV is a good thing - IF DONE PROPERLY. RTD did NOT introduce LGBT characters into WHO in a way that made them an integral part of the narrative, or in any way plot driven - he literally wrote characters that would wander on, spout a line of dialogue that included a gay reference, and then they walked off. Totally two-dimensional, amateur, face-palm inducing agitprop bullshit. Sure, it'd do the cause of introducing LGBT characters into the mainstream loads of good - if by "good" you mean you think having badly written LGBT characters alongside well-written straight characters is "good". People saw what RTD was doing - writing characters into a plot that only espoused his opinions on something totally unrelated to plot - and called what they saw: bad writing. Nobody fucking CARES that RTD is gay. Nobody fucking CARES that he wanted to introduce gay characters. They CARE that he crowbarred said characters into a story solely to have them insert a gay reference - or to have a gay reference crop up that in no way, shape or form advanced the plot.<P> Let's take Capt Jack. First appearance: THE EMPTY CHILD. The fact that he cracks onto Rose AND the doctor in no way gets in the way of his prime directive in that episode: he was there to steal a fallen Chula warship. It was worth a lot of money. As much as Jack liked to fuck, he liked profit more, and THAT'S his prime motivation for being in that episode. And it makes sense. He's a profiteer before he's a cocksman.<P> In TORCHWOOD, however, there was a piss-poor excuse for a scene in the middle of an otherwise exceptional episode called ADRIFT. Gwen is obvious TOO interested in following up the disappearances of several people during negative spikes in Rift surges, and has been warned off once by Capt Jack from investigating further. Even though Jack KNOWS how tenacious Gwen is, and that telling her not to investigate will only pique her interest further, he is then obviously so concerned about Gwen uncovering one of TORCHWOOD's darkest secrets that he goes out and fucks Ianto - getting caught by Gwen in the process.<P> EH?? Jack is so concerned by Gwen's intruding into the TORCHWOOD disappearances that instead of having someone tail Gwen, or giving her some kind of amnesia pill, or a memory-erasing gadget, or a proper sinister wanring-her-off talk, or even maybe telling her what's happened - he wanders off, unconcerned enough to pursue his romantic interest just long enough to let Gwen discover what's going on ANYWAY??<P> THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!<P> You have a guy heading up the supposedly most secret organisation in the UK - indeed, one of the most secret in the WORLD apparently - and not only is it so NOT secret that even beat police in Cardiff have heard of it, but the guy in command of the entire Cardiff facility is such a fucking flake, is so useless at even basic security, that he'd rather take the time to fuck a fellow employee than risk his new rookie discovering some of the worst atrocities TORCHWOOD has ever hidden?<P> Setesh, I don't know if you have even the most basic rudimentary understanding of storytelling and the flow of a narrative, but under no circumstances can you argue that THIS scene makes ANY kind of sense in context. Either Jack IS so fucking stupid he'd risk a tryst with Ianto and ignore Gwen's intruding into the facility - which makes him the least security-conscious highest Commander of the most secret organisation in the UK, which then calls into question the idea that TORCHWOOD could have even made it this far without being discovered by EVERYBODY - or you accept that if TORCHWOOD IS supposed to be this top secret, and Jack IS supposed to be a decent enough Commander that he COULD keep it all secret and undetectable, that there's no way he'd have time for shit like this, and it was a scene crowbarred in there REGARDLESS of whether or not it makes sense, and thus serves only to stir up the Daily Mail reading maiden aunts and the homophobes, under the guise of mainstreaming gay characters.<P> Or maybe you think pushing gay characters into the mainstream by making them all sex-obsessed promiscuous morally ambiguous morons incapable of keeping a secret organisation secret is A GOOD THING.<P> You see, the problem isn't Jack fucking Ianto. It's that Jack fucking Ianto AT THAT POINT IN THE STORY either makes him the dumbest bastard of all time - in which case, TORCHWOOD would NEVER have survived long enough to get to this point, with such a monumentally stupid guy heading up its security - or it is obviously a scene crowbarred in there solely to provide gay content, regardless of it NOT MAKING ANY SENSE IN RELATION TO THE NARRATIVE OR THE STORYLINE.<P> But hey - why debate me, when it's so much easier (and lazier) to just call me a homophobe and have done with it??
June 9, 2010, 6:56 p.m. CST
by spud mcspud
And I've learned that the only way to please certain LGBT viewers would be to create a programme where 95% of the characters are LGBT, only 5% are straight, and we should ALL pretend that this is absolutely the correct ratio in everyday life, otherwise you get all upset and call everyone whose opinions you disagree with "homophobes", regardless of how much doing so incorrectly labels many non-homophobes with what is, after all, a very offensive term.<P> Grow the fuck up...
June 9, 2010, 6:59 p.m. CST
by spud mcspud
"So what if it IS an agenda? As I see it, having the general public be comfortable with the idea of an action hero who just happens to be gay or bi is an "agenda" worth pursuing"<P> Agreed. So insert gay characters into mainstream SF programmes IN A WAY THAT MAKES THEM INTEGRAL TO THE PLOT AND THE NARRATIVE. It may be the only decent example thus farm, but see how Willow found she was in fact bi when she met Tara. A brilliantly sensitive handling of the subject.<P> For example of how NOT to do it, watch any episode of TORCHWOOD series 1 or 2...
June 9, 2010, 8:26 p.m. CST
as far as "why are there so many sexually fluid characters on the show when statistics show that blah blah blah", I would like to point out that Jack put the team together himself. He recruited the members. Makes sense to me that he would want to surround himself with like-libido'd individuals. <p> Ianto actually was my only "orientation" objection in that show, and that's only because it kind of flew in the face of his Cybermen-converted former lover. They worked hard to make that relationship tragic, it was a bit of a shame when he started doing the business with Jack.
June 9, 2010, 8:33 p.m. CST
I wonder if maybe you miss the point a bit. Not in regards to Torchwood, but to the wishes of LGBT viewers. Why wouldn't that segment of the population want a show about themselves? The L-Word and Queer as Folk are good examples. <p> More to the Torchwood point, why do you care so much if Torchwood accurately reflects the statistical makeup of society? It really, truly doesn't impact the show at all. If Torchwood was a show about the way homosexuals are treated in society, then maybe accuracy would count. But it's not. So it doesn't.
June 9, 2010, 8:43 p.m. CST
Cheers, mate. You hit the bulls-eye with that post.
June 9, 2010, 11:30 p.m. CST
Would it be reasonable to counter your argument, Spud, by saying that Jack's careless screwing of Ianto in that episode was, in fact, consistent with his character? Isn't it true that one of Jack's qualities is a degree of recklessness? And couldn't one argue that Jack knew Gwen would figure it out eventually but hoped that she'd let it go? Real people, everyday people, make decisions against their better judgment in the hope that the outcome will not prove out that judgment. And couldn't it also be argued that one of the reasons Torchwood Cardiff loses staff over the course of the 2 seasons and mini is because Jack mismanages things? <p> What I'm mostly getting at is that although you raise good narrative questions, you also make a number of absolute statements that aren't necessarily true. And some of us who are equally "well-read" and "educated", particularly in Film and Television, particularly in Screenwriting, aren't nearly as damning.
June 9, 2010, 11:41 p.m. CST
It's always fun when a bigot calls on "a lot of people" to prove their point. Really? A lot? You mean you and the other members of Godhatesfags, right? <p> And how, exactly, did Dr. Who promote gay rights? "Oh no, that guy kissed another guy, the show's trying to say that gay men should be able to marry!" Um... no, the show's trying to say that sometimes a man kisses a man. *I'm* saying that gay men should be able to marry. And they should. If I can marry a woman and be made miserable, then a gay dude should be able to marry another gay dude and be made miserable. <p> And if you've never paid attention, Dr. Who is full of agendas and has been for a loooong time. Education, conservation, British pride, etc.
June 10, 2010, 12:37 a.m. CST
Yes, it's a flock of geese, a herd of cows, a pack of wolves, a murder of crows, an agenda of gays/lesbians/bisexuals. Didn't you know? Seriously, the "reflecting the international flavour" bit worries me. Torchwood was founded by Queen Victoria. It's not an international organisation.
June 10, 2010, 7:56 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
"I wonder if maybe you miss the point a bit. Not in regards to Torchwood, but to the wishes of LGBT viewers. Why wouldn't that segment of the population want a show about themselves? The L-Word and Queer as Folk are good examples."<P> Fair enough - so why weren't the Beeb more open about the fact that TORCHWOOD would be the world's first LGBT-oriented SF show? Why just call it "edgy and adult" when in actual fact it's a narrative mess that makes the last three seasons of THE X-FILES look like BABYLON 5 in terms of plotting, and that it mistakes "integrating" LGBT characters into a mainstream show with "showing LGBT characters fucking, as often as possible, mostly with nothing whatsoever to do with the plot, then smearing anyone who dares point out that this is shit as homophobes and bigots"? Had they been honest and said "TORCHWOOD will in fact NOT be like DOCTOR WHO, but will be a gay LEXX", I'd have avoided it like the plague, and all the LGBT viewers could squeal with delight and watch an SF show where "SF" actually means " softcore gay porn".<P> The fuckers at the Beeb told us we'd get a darker, edgier, adult WHO series. We got gay LEXX. Therefore, fuck the Beeb for lying to its viewers to score points from a minority that comprises, at best, 10% of the worlds' population. "More to the Torchwood point, why do you care so much if Torchwood accurately reflects the statistical makeup of society? It really, truly doesn't impact the show at all. If Torchwood was a show about the way homosexuals are treated in society, then maybe accuracy would count. But it's not. So it doesn't."<P> As aforementioned, it counts because I expected to watch an SF show, with SF plots, and characters that served the PLOTS, NOT the agendas of the writers. I think you're easily smart enough to see where we RTD-haters are coming from now, so you do see what I'm talking about. The Willow/Tara relationship in BUFFY worked because it was part of, drove and enriched the overall narrative - Willow nearly destroyed the world after Tara's death, and almost killed the one boy who loved her most (Xander). And all this without having to resort to sex scenes every five minutes! Imagine!<P> TORCHWOOD is supposed to be an SF series. By the end of series 2, it was a softcore LGBT series with occasional SF elements. And I don't think it was in any way a coincidence that when RTD FINALLY gave his soapbox preaching a rest and concentrated on plot for CHILDREN OF EARTH (even if it was Nigel Kneale's plot for THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION, not jhis own) it became the most critically acclaimed of all three series.<P> Wow! TORCHWOOD was most well received when it was at its most SF-centred! Who knew? Well, apart from all the fans who got sick of being preached at and just wanted a series that was about the PLOT and not the relationships, anyway...
June 10, 2010, 8:05 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
"Would it be reasonable to counter your argument, Spud, by saying that Jack's careless screwing of Ianto in that episode was, in fact, consistent with his character? Isn't it true that one of Jack's qualities is a degree of recklessness?"<P> Yes, but if you tout your shiny new WHO spin-off TORCHWOOD as a darker, edgier, more adult X-FILES crossed with WHO, and it turns into the tale of how one intergalactic twat ruins the most secret organisation in the UK because he can't control his cock, then I call shenanigans. Last I recall, Mulder didn't burn down the X-Files because he was nailing Scully in the arse in the next building. THAT'S the kind of stupidity that made TORCHWOOD such a complete mess. It's not recklessness, it's stupidity. and how would a guy so spectacularly stupid get to run the most secret organisation in the UK, anyway?? "And couldn't one argue that Jack knew Gwen would figure it out eventually but hoped that she'd let it go? Real people, everyday people, make decisions against their better judgment in the hope that the outcome will not prove out that judgment. And couldn't it also be argued that one of the reasons Torchwood Cardiff loses staff over the course of the 2 seasons and mini is because Jack mismanages things?"<P> Yes, you could argue that, but essentially, you're then watching an SF show that's about a guy who is so fucking stupid, he would let the most secret organisation in the UK go to rack and ruin while he fucks his way through the staff.<P> Does that sound "adult", or just seedy? Does it sound groundbreaking, or does it sounds like a sexual harassment suit waiting to happen? When you look at it like that, TORCHWOOD is less a WHO-based UK X-FILES and more like DISCLOSURE with aliens in it. If that's the best we've got to offer after WHO... Fuck the UK. Give me American SF any day of the week, where the story comes first and social engineering - where there is any to be found - is an organic part of the narrative, not crowbarred in obviously enough to make the series look as amateur as TORCHWOOD did.
June 10, 2010, 9:50 a.m. CST
I've read the Kinsey report, and I know about the spectrum of human sexuality, and all that jazz.<br /><p><br />I didn't freak out when watching the Crying Game, and I've never sucked a dick.<br /><p><br />I think Spartacus is a fantastic series, and the male nudity and occasional scene of butt sex doesn't turn my stomach or have me reaching for the remote.<br /><p><br />I never had an issue with <br><br />a) Gay/Bi characters in Doctor Who<br />b) People wondering if the Doctor was gay/bi.<br />c) Captain Jack<br /><p><br />And I STILL think RTD was a fucking SHIT writer who did a great disservice to the LGBT community by being such a CLUELESS fucking twit, shoehorning in the most idiotic gay references like a square peg into a round hole.<br /><p><br />There have been other gay references in Who, which slid in and out like a well-oiled-cock metaphor. But most of RTD's references came at you like lubeless monsters up a virgin asshole.<br /><p><br />Spud, I'm with you on this. Anyone calling you a homophobe is just reaching into the insult bag for their favourite weapon.
June 10, 2010, 10:42 a.m. CST
This much rage smells of an icky agenda.
June 10, 2010, 4:31 p.m. CST
Okay, I concede on a lot of the shit you're pointing out. I guess I wasn't nearly as affected because I'm American and wasn't that invested in Dr. Who. I came across Torchwood very casually so I had no expectations to be thwarted. I also was never that big a fan of The X-Files (not sure why, it just didn't catch me the way that Buffy or Supernatural caught me). I can definitely see where you and others might be pissed. And although you're on the other side of the "is Torchwood shit?" argument, it would definitely be unfair to call you a homophobe. Clearly your love of the awesome Willow-Tara relationship story proves this. (Side note: best TV lesbians ever, followed closely by Tasha & Alice of the L-Word and Shane & Carmen also of the L-Word). <p> I also have to say that I hope your rage is meant to be a little bit funny because honestly I laughed quite a bit. Hyperbole = comedy.
June 10, 2010, 4:36 p.m. CST
on Spud's far superior and hate-less argument. Unless you were snorting cocaine every single time you posted, you clearly have your own gay-bashing POV on Torchwood's overt alternative sexuality. The fact that you continue to talk about Dr. Who and how there's some gay agenda on that show (aside from Captain Jack, WHAT OTHER CHARACTERS ON WHO HAVE BEEN GAY?) just proves the point. And I'll thank you to shut the fuck up. Or maybe you need a cock in your mouth?
June 10, 2010, 5:09 p.m. CST
He's more than capable of doing so himself, without you threatening him with gay rape for not agreeing with you. Maybe you should deal with your OWN hate issues, before you run around trying to point out others'.<p>And Doctor Who had PLENTY of gay characters throughout RTD's reign, besides Cap'n Jack. It's simply that under Moffat, the focus has been on STORY and PLOT, as it should be, rather than pushing LGBT propaganda.
June 10, 2010, 6:09 p.m. CST
by spud mcspud
I think everyone who posts on AICN has to be a bit hyperbolic compared to their real life. IRL, when I see shit like the aformentioned Jack/Ianto scene in ADRIFT, I roll my eyes, says something to Mrs-Spud-To-Be like "Oh THAT'S a smart thing to do, Jack" and carry on watching.<P> I CAN see this from other perspectives too - and if I were LGBT, I'd be thrilled to see an SF prog fronted by a bi character. As much as we think we're liberated these days, it's still a big deal for most. But if we're to listen to a vocal minority who wish to be represented in the media fairly, then we must ALSO listen to those who have a problem with seeing LGBT characters in the media, with a view to understanding THEIR problems with it, and either laying their fears to rest, or outright telling them that LGBT people have the same rights they do, and this includes the right to be seen in mainstream SF shows. And to do all this WITHOUT HATE. There's too many people (usually either supporting the LGBT community or being LGBT themselves) who think the way to deal with the bigoted hatred of LGBT for the last few decades is to allow - nay, ENCOURAGE - the same hatred of ANYONE who doesn't wholeheartedly approve of having disproportionate amounts of LGBT characters in everything on TV, all the time. They don't want to understand or engage the bigots in constructive discussion about why they have this problem with seeing LGBT characters onscreen - they just want to redirect the hate they suffered under back on people who are the opposite of themselves. While understandable, this is just plain WRONG - and two wrongs never, ever made a right.<P> But I think most all people bar the militant LGBT folk who want EVERY SF show in the UK to represent like TORCHWOOD does understand where I'm coming from. I mean, if it turned out Rory was bi, I wouldn't care - because the Silence season arc comes first, and so does that week's adventure. If character stuff comes second to plot, it's welcome - but the minute it doesn't (eg TORCHWOOD) you're watching a soap opera aimed at a particular minority with SF trappings thrown in. Which is shit writing, no matter how you look at it.<P> Cheers for seeing past my hyperbolic madness and getting my point. It's much cheaper than therapy...
June 10, 2010, 6:34 p.m. CST
by spud mcspud
...You'd be amazed how often that gets used to justify people calling me a homophobe!<P> "Aha! So you LIKE the idea of lesbians in an SF show, but NOT the idea of gay people like Jack and Ianto??"<P> "Well, as a straight Spud I concede I'd rather watch chicks go at it with each other than dudes, but really it's the shitty writing in TORCHWOOD that makes me hate Jack and Ianto, NOT the fact they're gay, so..."<P> "AHA! I KNEW IT!! HOMOPHOBE!!"<P> **sigh**<P> Yeah, as a straight guy I enjoy watching chicks kiss more than watching guys kiss. Apparently that makes me a homophobe, and not just a red-blooded lesbian lover...
June 10, 2010, 6:38 p.m. CST
by spud mcspud
Cheers for that. I actually haven't watched SPARTACUS yet, and I'm AMAZED how many totally straight guys I know who think it's awesome! It looks TOP GUN-level homoerotic to me, which means I'll probably sit laughing my way through it - but is it worth a watch??<P> But yes, I remain - as always - utterly bemused at how, as a supposed avowed homophobe, I can repeatedly enjoy watching (and, I'll admit, weeping like a btich at the end of) BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, which to me is just one of the best love stories I've ever seen, but which - as the homophobe I'm apparently unaware I am - I should in fact hate.<P> I'm very confused. Note to everyone: take that however you want to...
June 10, 2010, 6:43 p.m. CST
I totally withdraw any suggestion I made that you're either unread or homophobic. This has turned into an enlightening talkback, thankyou.
June 10, 2010, 11:27 p.m. CST
As long as you want to spout invective I thought I might as well too. Childish? Yeah, probably, but then again I'm on AICN talking to a child.
June 10, 2010, 11:32 p.m. CST
Shit yes, watch it ASAP. It definitely is all sorts of homoerotic, but completely aware of the fact. And there's plenty of nekkid ladies, too. In fact, it starts out with tons of blood and nekkid ladies, then slowly introduces more drama and cock. In a way that seems, to me, to be slightly cheeky. Like they knew they would hook manly men on all the boobs and blood then WHOA PENIS!!! <p> On a side note, if you've ever dug Lucy Lawless, she gets all sorts of full frontal. <p> On a side side note, give The L-Word a try. Particularly the first few seasons. Interesting, likeable characters AND lots of the sapphic action (with a smoking hot cast).
June 11, 2010, 2:55 a.m. CST
Spartacus was by far, the best new show I was watching last year. It's the one that I'm currently looking forward to the most when it comes back.<br /><br />It has an unbelievably shitty pilot episode. I don't know what the fuck was going on there. Maybe network interference, maybe they did the pilot way before the rest of the miniseries, and hadn't ironed out all the kinks. I just don't know. But watch the pilot, and bear with it. It gets SO much better. By the time you're on episode 4, it's settled down into a particular style, and you think you have the sense of where the show is going. And then just like the best shows (Breaking Bad, for example) it turns your expectations on your head.<br /><br />It's a fucking great show. And in a year of fairly piss poor finales, the finale for Spartacus kicked about 11 million different types of ass.
June 11, 2010, 9:16 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
Who'd-a thunk it??<P> I shall give this a go. And I read recently about a late stand-up comedian called Eric Douglas, who was having a bad gig in London, when he went for the desperate line: "Go easy, I'm Kirk Douglas' son!"<P> Then a voice from the back of the room yelled: "No, I'M Kirk Douglas' son!" Then, one-by-one, everyone else in the club: "No, I'M Kirk Douglas' son!"<P> Audience 1, Eric Douglas 0. Uber-pwned.
June 11, 2010, 9:21 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
I hereby withdraw any snark I lobbed your way. And if you keep coming back to these WHO or TW TBs, you'll re-read this entire last few hundred posts over about a gazillion times, usually when anyone mentions the words "RTD" and "gay agenda".<P> I actually think this has been one of the most open, sensible, well defined, well explained, courteous and thought-provoking gay agenda type TBs I've read in ages. So cheers Setesh, V'Shael, mrgray, LORDOFLIGHT, frozen01, THEGHOSTWHOLURKS, and everyone else - sometimes these things DO result in greater acceptance and understanding...
June 11, 2010, 9:35 a.m. CST
one that Jimmy Carr tells about an unnamed comedian who was having a rough gig. At one point, a man shouts out "My dad DIED of cancer."<br /><br />Since the comedian wasn't in the middle of telling a cancer joke, or hadn't just finished telling a cancer joke, he was taken aback by the seeming non-sequiter heckle. So he looked blankly, and said "... AND?"<br /><br />And the guy immediately came back with "And it was funnier than THIS."
June 11, 2010, 10:39 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
THAT is pure, unfiltered genius. And one I'd love to lob at any unfunny comedian I may end up enduring in the future. Just genius ;D
June 11, 2010, 10:41 a.m. CST
by spud mcspud
Good to hear that show is actually worth watching. I watched 20 mins of an episode once, wrote it off as a lesbian rip-off of SEX AND THE CITY and promptly forgot about it. People I know who watched it told me how wrong I was about it, so... will check it out when it gets re-run here in the UK. Cheers for that!
June 11, 2010, 9:40 p.m. CST
You guts don't know me but I am fairly new to the boards and intend to be submitting my 2 cents on all subjects. OK, here goes, first post.... Hmmm. I ain't no Homophobe man, but I know loads of people but ain't none of them GAY. So, what I am trying to say is that the ratio of 9:1 seems a bit high. I can't believe that 10% of people are gay. I have no scientific data, but would estimate less than 5% I also agree that the "gay" agenda in Torchwood spoiled it. there were too many scenes of un-necessary Gayness. I loved the stories, the adventures and the characters but why did it have to be so gay? other sci fi shows aren't so caught up in relationships (except star trek TOS where Kirk fucks everything) sex, especially gay sex isn't needed to further a sci fi story. so leave it out and get the series put onto BBC1 goodnight!
June 12, 2010, 8:38 a.m. CST
June 12, 2010, 7:28 p.m. CST
Ah, I'm sure this will suck - I don't trust RTD with loads of cash. I have this horrible feeling he might do a musical episode, and having seen John Barrowman's UK variety/reality show, I'd fear for the sanity of the audience. Feh. OTOH, more money might mean more ambitious FX. You never know. I look upon this prospect with trepidation and skepticism (or "scepticism," as they say in the UK)
June 13, 2010, 12:35 a.m. CST
It's not hard to look up statistics online. Do so now, before you humiliate yourself further. <p> I also have to wonder if you've ever watched any televised drama that ever existed. Sexual/romantic tension between characters exists in pretty much all of them. If you want to talk about recent sci-fi alone, let's talk about Battlestar Galactica. Now THERE was a lot of sexual and romantic tension. Oh, and guys fucking robots. Which I guess is better than fucking other guys, right?
June 14, 2010, 6:32 p.m. CST
by Bad Wolff
The amount of hysterical bile being thrown about this show simply doesn't ring true when you consider a combination of the trended ratings and the great general audience feedback this show has gotten on both sides of the pond. Children of Earth was considered a "must see event" in Britain that recalls Quatermass, for Christ's sake. For the record, I find the show to be quite good, with a couple of clunker episodes, but more often than not excellent, particularly CoE. The open minded treatment of sexuality is refreshing, and there are many of us that recognize it as an accurate portrayal of our own social groups, whether or not you can personally concur.