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More LOST Finale!! Ratings!! Critics!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
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Ratings were big but not super-big. With a preliminary 5.6 in adults 18-49 it beat every episode of “Desperate Housewives” this season, it beat Thursday’s season finale of “Grey’s Anatomy,” it beat every non-Super Bowl episode of “Undercover Boss” and it beat all but one episode of “Glee.” But it was still well below all episodes of “American Idol” and below a handful of recent “Big Bang Theory” and “Two and a Half Men” episodes.
Critics didn’t get to review “Lost” in advance, but they’re sure going to it after the fact.
The New York Times says:
… I was by turns moved, engrossed, and deeply irritated. But mainly I was irritated, because in the end I’m a plot-centric person, and “Lost” was a densely plotted show, and the macro-plot turned out to be … well, a big nothing seems like an awfully strong way of putting it, but it was certainly close to that.…
The Los Angeles Times says:
Well, it could have been worse. It could have all been a dream. … the sound you heard 'round about 10 Sunday night was thousands of nonromantics wishing for a time slip that would give them those 2 1/2 hours and possibly six seasons back. …
The Chicago Tribune says:
… The first two hours were exciting and emotionally engaging, especially when the island castaways in the Sideways world began remembering their "real" lives. Those "flashes" were powerful and many cast members did some of their best work in those scenes. I got chills as I saw Juliet and Sawyer talk about that coffee date. Sun and Jin, Charlie, Kate and Claire -- all their recollection moments were moving and powerful. … But the last half hour or so took the finale to another level.
The San Francisco Chronicle says:
I loved watching "Lost." I embraced the characters. The ending pandered to my tastes in that way. But it failed on so many levels to answer questions that were important to people who invested time in them. It went out making about as much sense as it did coming in, which will undoubtedly be a disappointment. As a series finale it overjoyed the heart and annoyed the brain. But if I had to do it all over again, knowing how it all plays out, I'd still watch. …
Hitfix says:
… Even keeping in mind Darlton's pre-season warning about not answering every question, we end season six, and the series, with an awful lot left perfectly muddled, with a lot of story resting on the golden well of souls we were introduced to only two weeks ago, and with the sideways universe revealed to have no relation to the plot of the series, except in the sense that death is the end to every story. …
The Newark Star Ledger says:
… a conclusion that delivered gratifying codas for beloved characters, though it maddeningly side-stepped the show’s legion of unresolved enigmas.…
The Boston Globe says:
… the mixed episode offered an abundance of emotional resolution and vague metaphor, some of which was compelling (Sawyer and Juliet’s reunion, Jack and Desmond's farewell) and some of which was quite hokey (the cork?! the light? Locke becoming human again?). … Despite the disappointing muddiness and unanswered questions of the finale, I still felt grateful for it. One of TV’s most compelling pieces of serial storytelling came to an end exactly when it should have – before the rigors of TV seasons stretched the narrative too, too far out of shape. Viewers and networks always want more of what they love, but the “Lost” producers resisted temptation. They picked an end date and stuck to it, and for that – as well as six years of great mystery – they deserve respect. …
USA Today says:
… Thrillingly, cleverly, and in a manner that tapped into the simple, profound truths of great American works like Our Town, the show spelled out for viewers what it has been saying all along. Lost is about life and death, faith and science, spirit and flesh, and has always stressed that the title refers to the characters' souls, not their location. …
Time Magazine says:
… an epic, stirring two and a half hours of television, full of heart and commitment, that was true to Lost's characters as we knew them from season one. And through elaborate use of symmetries, echoes and callbacks—as well as some go-for-broke acting and a visual grandeur by director Jack Bender that matches the show's pilot—it brought them powerfully and cathartically full circle. …
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Well, it disappointed me. I wanted more plot-centric answers.
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so can we get back to something better written now?
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yeah i agree it was confusing and i
got a little irritated i mean the whole purgatory thing was quite silly and almost ridiculous -
good finale
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...and annoyed the brain. I like that quote..sums it up for me!
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My heart is satisfied but at the cost of my brain.. Really that's how life, faith really is you can want answers but usually in the search for answers emotion and love cloud reason and you fall for sentiment.. I liked this episode but it has made me doubt my commitment to critical thinking and truth.
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really moving stuff , i even shed a tear !!!!
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One of their posts is entitled: "Goddamn You, Lost!" which just about sums it all up.
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I was expecting a lot better than an unsatisfying finale void of adequate explanation or closure (ala the Battlestar Galactica finale). We were told that the conclusion to the story was known, but it's perfectly obvious that the writers didn't know they were going and they pulled it out of their asses well into the series (also ala the Battlestar Galactica finale). They lied to us. Shame on them.
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I wonder if AICN will start reporting more news once they don't have the guaranteed site traffic it provides them, (at the time of this post I counted 4 current LOST related threads totalling over 3,000 posts) for example, the kid who claims he is playing young Howard Stark in Captain America
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Christian was an alien!!!!!!
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Because I knew it would suck.
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That's all I'm saying
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I thought it was a great way to end it all!
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Perfect
I wept like a teenage girl at a Bieber concert. -
they found a formula, and they stretched it out as long as they could.and it isn't what the ending was, it's what it wasn't. the finale wrapped up what, in a general sense, was going on. but it didn't address even a healthy fraction of all of the nonsense that's being going on for 6 years. this was truly just a finale for season 6, and that's it. do you people even REMEMBER all of the shit that was going on in previous seasons? that is all rendered COMPLETELY pointless right now. truly, totally meaningless. smoke monsters, numbers, hatches, others, yada yada yada...
and if you have been watching for 6 years, and you DON'T feel duped, well...I guess you're a very forgiving person.
this show was just a 6 year crack binge for millions of people. they just kept coming back, and coming back, well beyond the point where it gave them the sense of enjoyment that it had in the beginning. but you couldn't stop, could you? it was just so exciting! what's going to happen next? but, what does it all mean? who cares! new episode next week! I need my fix!
now, you have a pseudo-copout ending, and hundreds of questions left unanswered, and definitive proof that the writers and creators were NOT dropping you cute little clues the whole time that would add up to some big reveal, they did NOT have everything all planned out, they did NOT intend for everything to tie in together. and how is that not a disappointment?
the sideways world is an afterlife/beforelife, alternative whatever, yada yada yada...fine. but that could have been one season. maybe 2 seasons. hell, a long movie could have done it. certainly a miniseries. but that's not as financially viable, is it? what could make more money, sell more DVD's, hook more doofus viewers in, than 6 years of crack binging?!?! yay!!!
this whole things was a calculated, manipulative cash grab. and everyone bought in, hook, line, and sinker.
god, where is The West Wing when you need it? -
The people who are so massively disappointed by this. People are writing shit that makes it seem like they were waiting for the last episode of LOST to bring meaning to their lives. Its just a TV show people. Were you entertained? Did you care about the characters? If the answer is yes,then you got your moneys worth. Time to just let it go...
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May 24, 2010 6:17:29 PM CDT
If you were disappointed you didn't find out who dropped the dha
by strongbadmonkey
Then you were disappointed in the finale. If you could just sit back and enjoy it for what it was, you probably enjoyed it. If you're raging pissed about it, tough titties. Quit
bitching and go back to masturbating to pictures of 7 of 9. -
and will be buying the complete series on blu-ray day 1
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Honestly Herc. You watched it. you followed it from the beginning. Tell everyone what you honestly thought of the finale and how it related to the rest of the show.
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for AICN
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I'm surprised they went for the Purgatory style ending. This was the favorite amongst fans in season one.
It's also a pity Ashes to Ashes did exactly the same ending only a week before but handled far better. I say far better because there's little in the way of questions with the ending of Ashes to Ashes while in Lost it's like...err..ok but eh WTF?>p>
If they are all dead then who's on the Island? If it's an alternate reality then say so, they never do. They leave a HUGE fest of mysteries unanswered which begs the question...Did they ever have answers past season 1?
I can understand them leaving the source of the Island's power and how Jacob and Smoke Dude's mum managed to do what they did a Mystery...actually no that's a lie, I had a perfectly reasonable explanation for all of this over a season ago, and actually thought I was right for a while, but they just gave up and did nothing. It reeks of not really knowing how to end it so make it mysterious and refuse to comment on it so fans can interpret it however they like, a cop out really.
Overall a fantastic series, glad I kept up with it but I must say I'm disappointed with the ending (even though it was nice to see them all paired up again) and Ashes to Ashes proves such disappointment can be avoided.
US fans watch the UK versions of Lost on Mars and Ashes to Ashes to see afar superior wrap up to the show. Then compare it to Lost and the US version of Life on Mars to realize what cack they expect you to just accept.
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Stories are a way for all of us to figure out how to deal with life and death. I think Lost is a modern myth. Now I'm going to watch the whole series over again.
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I think BadMrWomka summed it up as well as anyone. I'll bitch as much as I want fucko. If you are so easily pleased, go and watch Murder She Wrote.
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England loves Dr. Who too. Snore.
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Sorta like putting Tootie from "The Facts Of Life" in a supermodel lineup. You guys need to either let McWeeny come back like a whimpering little bitch (which no one wants), or quit pimping his worthless new site.
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I am gonna go out on a limb and say that the reaction the finale is getting from critics is not exactly what the show runners were hoping for. They have played it cute with the audience and tried to say it was a show about the characters, but in the end they are getting hammered for that. A great show like this going out to bad reviews due to lack of creativity IMO. All those things they set up earlier just forgotten. Makes me sad.
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the LOST season six DVD and Blu-ray sets that are set to release on August 24 will contain "new content that addresses some of the unanswered questions in an entertaining way"
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I am one part happy with the finale and one part infuriated by it. There are tons of things that were answered or could be inferred from other plot points but then again there are probably even more things that were just completely dropped. I'm still mulling this.
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May 24, 2010 6:30:49 PM CDT
Did anyone think Keamy was a cooler villian than MiB???
by ashokforgiven
I dunno, Im not here to troll on LOST or anything, I still do love the show. But one thing I think S6 lacked was a really sinister villian. Sure, we had MiB/Flocke... but in my opinion Flocke really never seemed as threatening or dangerous to our Losties as Widmore's freighter crew and Martin Keamy... who I think really gave Season 4 a certain razor sharp edge that Season 6 lacked.
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say what you want about McWeeny, but hitfix.com has been growing steadily since its inception. they've broken the top 5000 in the US, and they're still growing every month by 4% or so in viewers.how's your website doing? I looked up angrydork.com, but it's not registered.
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May 24, 2010 6:32:00 PM CDT
I'm glad the ratings weren't great! Terrible, disappointing endi
by hollywoodhellraiser
I won't be supporting anything by these hacks ever again!Mr.BadWonka is right. LOST was a cash grab for ABC/Disney and they like the writers didn't gvie a shit how it ended!
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That pretty much sums it up for me.
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I'd be happy to have Drew back. Whether you liked his articles or not (I did), or agreed with his take on things (not always), you gotta admit his talkback interactions were always entertaining.
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Jack fought Gul Dukat on the cliff, and he became a prophet!!
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the whole show smacks of deus ex machina. I'm just surprised its as mainstream as it is. In the immortal words of Lucy Lawless on the Simpsons, "A wizard did it."
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Gotta say, I didn't think the episode or ending was bad. It comforts you to see some of the survivors saved and all together. But man, I already knew everybody dies. I didn't want to see what they were all going to be up to after they died, I wanted to know what they were doing on the island. The first episode of this season should have been 'Across the Sea' and we should have been learning about what the hell the deal was with Jacob and his never named brother (for whatever reason), answering questions to the biggest mysteries on the island throughout the season.
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like most characters he only found peace in the afterlife. He suffered his whole life and only when he died he found peace.......that is bullshit. I am not a religous person so the fact that all the people that died for nothing boon, shannon, libby etc were jipped. And what of walt and michael? And what did dharma want with walt, why was he seen by shannon and locke?
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and below a handful of recent “Big Bang Theory” and “Two and a Half Men” episodes.wonderful :-)
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The problem is that multiple viewing ain't going to solve anything.
A bloody cheat! -
"I got a bad feeling about this" for the finales.
These are the talent pools Lucas needs to be dipping into for the live action Star Wars TV show. -
May 24, 2010 6:42:40 PM CDT
So is Roger Ebert going to lose his shit over LOST too...?
by burnhollywood
Seeing as the notion of a happy afterlife made him bonkers in LOVELY BONES...?
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Michael's ghost is stuck on the island, remember?
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Lost failed miserably with SO many unresolved questions and setups...and do not get me started on red herrings.
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McWeeny used to routinely blow his top at people in talkbacks. Back in the days when you could click on someone's user ID and get a link to their email address, he would go so far as to email his home phone number to people who displeased him, invite them to call him; then when they called, he would flip and bitch them out like he was a 14 year-old girl on the rag (3 different people told me their stories about this). He is not, nor has he ever been, a paragon of tolerance or maturity.
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Just kidding. It rocked. Nothing crucial to the plot was left unanswered and I don't need to know why a statue has 4 toes. It doesn't fucking matter! Bring on the ultimate blu-ray boxset! :)
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Anybody else pick up on that?
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Are the ones like the podcasters taking notes on the episode. That's BS. Just enjoy the show. Can you imagine people in the 50's taking notes on Andy Griffith?
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Just my $.02
Opinions will flow like water down the light cave's hole for some time to come on this finale for sure. Thankfully I can feel like the promise was fulfilled.
The story resolved itself if not every single aspect of every tidbit that was laid down over the last six seasons.
Did anyone really want to sit through two and a half hours of plot exposition? That's Phantom Menace..."the taxation of trade routes is in dispute. Puke. All plot, no heart.
Characters standing around reciting Trek-like dialogue so the fact-checkers with their checklists at home could tick-off plot points their scorecard from season three to meet with their approval else the producers and writers are hacks? Damn, keep those people locked the hell away, PLEASE!
Walt? Did anyone really feel ripped off not knowing what happened to a peripheral character that was dropped so long ago?
The point of the show I took away was to let go of all of the cloying little details in life and embrace the moments...the people who are important to us. That was the point of the side universe as Christian said. Time had no meaning there. (I guess we can shit all over them for
Yes, it's just my opinion but I was moved by what I saw. That's also the point of the side universe...that we all got out of it what we wanted. And now we can move on.
Those that can't, well, they become like Michael...cursed to wander around the island a little longer mumbling to themselves and wind.
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...shit all over them for quoting Star Trek Generations...it was the nexus!
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They were all dead... in time. Just like Tyler Durden put it:
"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate drops to zero"
Everything before and during the island actually happened. Jack didn't die until that final shot of him closing his eyes. Lapidus flew the last survivors to safety.
Hugo and Ben were the new safe keepers of the portal.
Smoke Monster was an angry entity trapped in the realm of the island. Who knows really how, but it obviously had too do with the light source.
Daniel scientific findings of parallel dimensions is what helped Desmond deal with his time frame jumping.
The whispers are souls forever trapped on the island. BUT that isn't really well explained why. Maybe it's like the smoke monster, but not as powerful?
I don't know. I think there were a lot of things answered and wrapped nicely.
I love the idea of Jack and them finally laying rest to the imbalance with the struggle on the island.
I love the last shot of Jack seeing his friends safely leaving the island. That final smile before his eyes close was a nice touch.
I dug it.
Some of us really enjoyed the show and some of you didn't. That's the way it goes.
I love it when people tell others what they should be enjoying in life. Heh. -
And it would've changed nothing. Meaning the show ended with nothing unique to call its own. It could've set on Battlestar Galactica or Seinfeld. Why because every show ever made has characters that have flaws. Why does it fail? Because Lost didn't have to be set on an island. It didn't need all that "magic" that the island represented. It could've set on Dick Cheney's backyard when Jack and the gang spent the entire series escaping from Cheney and his shotgun and you could still have the same ending. In a way it turned out just like the Seinfeld ending. There was resolution to all their flaws in the end.
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May 24, 2010 6:51:16 PM CDT
I'm coming to terms with last half hour but it's just that...
by tangcameo
...I had so much invested and believed so much that the alt-universe was an alt-universe where Jacob hadn't influenced anyone since the island got sunk. It made sense, it held water, and it was a better idea than what it turned out to be. Maybe it was better left a secret to the Losties and only shared with Desmond, Eloise and us, leaving the Losties in their happy 'alt-universe' life unaware.
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And was moved more and more satisfied each time. This one was a success....the haters are dead wrong
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...but it threw them all away, again and again. Instead we got Smokey, who wasn't really evil, who didn't have any real understandable motives but just some vague, undefined mommy problems. The Others, the Dharma Initiative, Ben, Widmore, Sayid, Sawyer - any of them could have been a great villain. But a cloud of smoke pretending to be a dead man for no understandable reason...
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...so either the world doesn't end on my birthday or my birthday will be cancelled for some reason. hehe
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we should stop bitching at not being happy with this finale, shut the fuck up. Should we not be happy with the ending of revenge of the sith because we should have enjoyed most if the star wars trilogy, should we be happy with battlestar's ending because everything leading to it was good....no we shouldn't. I still love lost but would have liked almost anything but everyones dead now and they meet up in purgatory.
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May 24, 2010 6:55:38 PM CDT
So the sheet over the island on the ad for the DVD series set?
by tangcameo
Was that a 'sheet over a dead body' hint?
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(...I call him Hobbes.) had a pretty clear motivation. If you were paying attention to nothing but what was being spelled out onscreen then it's easy to miss. Just not if you actually give a shit.
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Could've been set in the Cheers bar, or the Ponderosa or Al Bundy's garage. All the mysteries of the five seasons previous were rendered entirely irrelevant as the ending was all about Jack getting closure.
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May 24, 2010 7:01:00 PM CDT
LAST LOST EVER = NO JUSTIFICATION OF THE PLOT
by stereotypical evil archer
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They shouldve devoted at least one episode to the Island's mysteries. I think then everyone wouldve walked away much happier.
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May 24, 2010 7:01:48 PM CDT
THE FANS WERE CONNED AND NOW MUST SUFFER THE SHIT ENDING.
by stereotypical evil archer
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Didn't want to move into the light. Was he waiting to go back to Danielle? Or did he he wait for his mom, or what?
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Anyone who found this satisfying invented their own story. Only a great ending if you're a Christian that likes beeing kept in the dark. Otherwise - it was nonsense plain and simple.
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That's my take on it. What would have happened if the MIB left? Nothing. Mommy just wanted to keep him on the Island as a possible replacement, which was twisted into young Jacob's mind as "MIB needs to stay on the Island", in addition to Jacob not wanting to be alone. Basically, MIB fell victim to a massive injustice, which twisted him to the evil douche you saw this season. Well, that and having his soul torn from his body.
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...Scarlett Johannson's snatch. There's a whole temple of light down there!
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"Endings are hard. Any chapped-ass monkey with a keyboard can poop out a beginning, but endings are impossible. You try to tie up every loose end, but you never can. The fans are always gonna bitch. There's always gonna be holes. And since it's the ending, it's all supposed to add up to something. I'm telling you, they're a raging pain in the ass." - Chuck - Supernatural
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May 24, 2010 7:07:45 PM CDT
I'M JUST SAYING... LOST WAS A "PONZI" SCHEME
by marcel_the_negro_projectionist
Last night proved this to be true. Every episode was like another dividend statement telling you that everything was fine, moving in the right direction, and, most importantly, would pay off handsomely in the end.
In the last half hour I was begging Darlton not to cop their way out with the old, way overused Jacob's Ladder scenario. And what did we get...? The old, overused Jacob's Ladder scenario. Don't get me wrong -- individual episodes of the show were often brilliant and groundbreaking. But in the end, the powers that be one-upped Bernie Madoff in a way even Bernie would be proud. -
This is a hard sci-fi, male dominated site, populated by a generally younger crowd who may not have families of their own yet. An ambiguous, unabashedly spiritual ending was never going to fly here. For an alternative take, EW.com (a more female-oriented, mainstream crowd) TBers generally loved the finale. AICN people are Jack, season 2. They want hard answers, and want them now. Nothing wrong with that, but this finale wasnt aimed at you.
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...got out of jail. Oops... I guess so, they were all on that crappy previous season of Curb.
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One more clue the island world was real and the 815ers didn't die when the plane crashed in the island: at the end, we see an old, moldy shoe hanging from the bamboo where Jack lays down to die. (it was the exact same shoe that was hanging there when Jack woke up from the plane crash
in the pilot!) -
The flashes to the sideverse happen after everybody is dead, long after the story and their lives are over. You can literally take ANY movie or TV series ever written, and put that ending on it, as that ending had nothing to do with LOST. Hell, it didn't even take place on the island! The characters were even all different - they weren't even themselves in the Sideverse. How am I supposed to care about that?
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It's like Stephen King's The Dark Tower - it's the journey that matters. Those were some of the most fun 6 years ever as far as TV for me. I don't think I missed one episode, and it was the one show that I would rarely watch on DVR - I had to watch it live. It was fun, exciting and intriguing.
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Insist we should just take whatever cack is blown are way and shut up if we don't enjoy it. Basically they are saying, "I've convinced myself I enjoyed it, don't speak negatively so I don't have a brain hemorrhage over the 6 years I've invested in this show."
I've no problem if you enjoyed the show really, I've no problem you wanting to discuss the show. I just hate it when someone thinks they have a right to insist everyone likes it or shuts up. -
May 24, 2010 7:12:14 PM CDT
They should do a two hour special for next fall's sweeps...
by margot_tenenbaum
...that consists of Ben brain-dumping to Hurley everything he's learned about the island, DHARMA, Widmore & the Others over the years.
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..so The Island "The biggest mystery of the entire show" suddenly doesn't matter and the shows only about the characters?.WRONG.I agree the characters are important but we NEEDED A STRAIT UP ANSWER TO WHAT THE ISLAND IS.
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I really don't understand the scene of the burning wreckage at the end. It made no sense to me. Did anyone understand that? Was it the original plane?
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They gave hints all season that everyone was dead-dead-deadsky. If we were in denial, maybe so was Jack, so his dissapointment to find he was dead was the same as ours.
After watching the pilot on Saturday, the last episode looked like exactly where it all meant to go from day one. -
Jack was wandering around the island for six years, while the island was creating these tests for him to do. When Jack died. He met the people that died in the plane crash at the church. But, they had become real to him on the island. With the help of his father, they all cross over to somewhere else.
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The way I saw it, the shots of the wreckage brought a sense of reality to the events on the island. Kind of a "Hey, look, all this really happened" coda. But it's totally interpretive and could easily have a different meaning for someone else.
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Billed as sci-fi but ended up a being polemic on how pro-reason, pro-science folks should embrace religion. Sad, For an encore I suppose they can create a series about a devout Muslim renouncing Islam and submitting to Christianity (is the show name "Crusade" taken?).
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I have been an avid watcher of this show since BEFORE season one. I watched the pilot at least three times before the show aired, and have seen every episode at least 3-4 Times, including the shitty ones. And for them to end the show this way makes me feel angry. They explicitly stated they would never do Perdition or Purgatory, or the Underworld, which is basically what they did in the final few minutes. And for me that ruined the entire series. It actually was the first show to make me wish I had never seen it in the first place. Kind of how the end of the UK Life On Mars was a HUGE let down. (The US take was better).
Problems I had:
Babies dying, Walt missing, Aaron and Jin Yeon missing, If it was a place to lead them to heaven why were people dying and killing each other in it? How was Desmond able to flash into the afterlife? What was with the electromagnetic properties of the island. Who created the temple and the statue, Where the "others" came from initially, Why the island cured Rose and Locke, where did the island come from? Who was LADY (Mib/Jacobs Mom), the list goes on and on.
Though from what team Darlton was posting I knew not to expect many answers, but I at least expected a final answer, something that was scientific and not religious (I don't believe in god or the afterlife personally). And they copped out. I literally feel that the writers wrote themselves into a corner and had no way of fixing their mistake thus came the conclusion it was pergatory.
A more fitting ending in my eyes would have been Jack, turning into the new MIB after replugging the hole, and an after shot of our survivors. Then we could have ran with the explanation that LAX was REALLY an alternate time line created by jughead.
This leaves a lot of plot holes, From Desmond's episode this season "What if I already blew up a hydrogen bomb", Desmond crossing into the afterlife through electromagnetism. Juliet's "it Worked" etc.
I really feel like I wasted my time on this show. They copped out worse than the Heroes ending, "Brave New World" and the Season one Heroes ending. SO much for lost being better than heroes. They abandoned way more plot points than Heroes ever did. -
I had a theory several seasons ago that the Island was Mount Olympus.
After the gods went out of fashion the gods were left on the Island, they simply gave up and passed on one by one.
When Jacob and the 'Dark Man' appeared I was convinced I was right. Even more so when Dark Man became Lock. I thought maybe it was Lokie and Jacob was Thor.
In the end I realized I thought far too much and I simply should have done a montage of love scenes, shouted 'WEEEEE' while spinning around in a circle and jut wrote down anything. -
Nobody cared. I mean, we cared of course, because we are the viewers, but the characters never did. Did Kate or Jin or Charlie or Sawyer ever give a rat's ass about the inner workings of Island magic? Or Dharma experiments? Locke did, of course, he was the go-to guy for that type of stuff. But mainly, they just wanted an answer to the question: why are we here? And that question, they answered to a T.
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Or learn to read before I hit 'Post.
JUT = Just -
review/article/opinions. It feels like she "gets it" and was a real fan and not just a critic. Which you could either consider a bad thing or a good thing. I just think she really nailed it.
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The West Wing is the best series in the history of television.
Which does not prevent me from loving Lost. -
still has the best ending ever in my book.
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We know what it was. It's the source of light. The source of good. For those who want to know what the light is, then go see Phantom Menace or Matrix Reloaded and have the mystical sense spoiled with some lame-ass answer.
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take it if they didn't like the way it ended, by the way. I just disagree. As a matter of fact, I'm enjoying the criticisms.
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Think of all the hundreds of thousands of hours compiling all these details about these two shows. All for nothing cause everything was crap. Jacob's cabin, Cylon plan, Lost's "rules" and the rules for who could be a humanoid cylon. ALL CRAP!!!
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Which was real? The Island or Purgatory? It seems maybe both? But maybe not at first? If so I'm not sure at what point they all died and yet stayed on the Island at the same time? I don't know...my head hurts trying to work it out. Can you answer for sure?
Basically mate if the majority of the audience don't know it's the writers fault for not making anything clear. -
Walt wasnt in the church because that was a gathering, as Christian explained, of the people who had bonded together in each other's lives on the Island to become a family. Walt wasnt that. Walt left, he grew up and lived his own life. Someday, there will be a church for Walt too, full of his kids and grandkids and family and friends. The Island group wasnt that for him. Take out the name Walt and plug in the name Aaron and the same thing applies. That wasnt actually Aaron in the church at the end, he lived his own life post-Island. It was merely a representation for Charlie and Claire of when they were the most happy: raising Aaron on the Island.
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..I bet he HATED this ending.
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I agree with everything but i do think the writers could have gone a different way. When i first started watching this season i thought it was a flash foward and not sideways, like these people were sent back after the events on the island and got the lifes they deserved. Then Jacobs replacement to be on the island alone after choosing to be there.
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Followed by Ashes to Ashes.
Then go reevaluate your perspective on Lost's ending and DEMAND to be treated better! :P -
Someone had to say it. I'm out.
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The Island was 100% real, everything that happened, happened, just the way we saw it. All the people who died, died, exactly when we saw them die. They never came back. Think of the Sideways world as the world's longest epilogue, taking place 50 (100? 200? How long can Hurley live?) years in the future. The Sideways world was how the story ended, they just stretched it out over the course of a season. Purgatory was the "waiting room" for heaven, constructed by the collective ideas, experiences, lusts, regrets, lives of the castaways. It was the place for them to meet in the "afterlife" to go to Heaven together.
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i loved the finale, even while intellectually i recognise that it managed to answer a big fat zero of any of the outstanding questions...
a perfect ending would have done both, but i'm still happy with the ending we got. -
So hungry for our need for definitive answers,we ouerlook damon and cuse's defiant laugh in our collective face.knowingtheyre real goal was to pull the ultimate longcon on viewers.So,for years,they built up this intricate plot and mythology laden puzzle( us ravenous for the answes).then ,at the last moment,they change it on us.it was never bout answers.we spent 6 years following the bait.then bam "its bout love and movimg on to heaven".they euen have sawyer mention pulling a longcon ,in the
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So hungry for our need for definitive answers,we ouerlook damon and cuse's defiant laugh in our collective face.knowingtheyre real goal was to pull the ultimate longcon on viewers.So,for years,they built up this intricate plot and mythology laden puzzle( us ravenous for the answes).then ,at the last moment,they change it on us.it was never bout answers.we spent 6 years following the bait.then bam "its bout love and movimg on to heaven".they euen have sawyer mention pulling a longcon ,in the
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Way to get your totally wrong opinion out there ASAP.
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Miles goes to the empty church. He stops and suddenly goes, "what the Hell!" The end.
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It's all about the Benjamins.
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1639820/20100521/story.jhtml -
...If you didn't like it, cool. You're loss. Stop insisting that if we loved the finale, we're some kind of apologists and in denial. It was amazing, and left me 100% satisfied.
The people complaining that everything sucks because the finale wasn't 150 minutes of the island blueprints being broadcast are the same people who bitched that midiclorians ruined Star Wars. -
might not have ruined Star Wars, but they still suck and had no place in the series.
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"If it's a piece of shit, call it a piece of shit."- Bill Hicks
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... I remember reading an interview with someone -- Abrams or Cuse or Lindelof, I forget -- who said, when they explained the (then years away) finale to the ABC overlords, "their jaws were on the floor." Or something similar; the person claimed it was such a brilliant, astounding ending that the execs were utterly blown away. Ever since, I was like "Man, I wish I'd been watching." But now it sounds like I didn't miss much.On a related note, BSG had a similarly derided ending... what is it with beloved SF shows collapsing at the 11th (or I guess 12th) hour? Interesting...
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If you loved the finale then you are an emotionally driven sap. Apparently all it takes for some people to call a show epic is if there are emotional moments onscreen. Look! That actor is crying! Give'em an Oscar!
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I've always said, if Star Wars had come out today, how would the pop culture of today greet it? Lucas explained NOTHING, he literally gave you nothing. The 3rd or 4th scene of the opening movie was a debate over the merits of disbanding the Senate! I mean, WTF is the Senate?!!?! The balls on Lucas were amazing in hindsight, Its actually amazing how little Lucas gave you in those opening 3 movies, and how immediately everything went in the shitter the second he attempted to explain 20 years later. Of course, this also applies to Terminator (wouldnt it be cool to actually SEE John Connor in the future fighting Terminators??)....or, some people would argue, Star Trek (wouldnt it be cool to actually SEE Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru?? Or see how he met Spock?). And yet, no matter HOW many times its been demonstrated that explaining every detail is a terrible terrible idea, everyone will still bitch when things arent spelled out. Darlton obviously sniffed out a long time ago that this was a no win scenario and just said fuck it.
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I'm clueless as to what Lost was all about and I'm a big fan of the show. Sure it was about character development but I guess the ending left me with an empty feeling. By the writers flashing sideways and never flashing backward they left too many questions by limiting the visual palette. For example the meaning of the cork and the egyptian writings, smoke monster origins and the statue where never explained because of this forced and bizarre limitation. I did however enjoy seeing that dog laying beside Jack, his only friend on the island, while he died, the best shot of the whole series, period. The flash sideways, I thought felt forced and unnatural to me in parts of this episode.
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I'm happy the way they ended it, so, within the context of the show, I don't need the answers.
But I hope they release something to answer all of them. -
At best Lost should only have been a mini-series.
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Yeah, Keamy was a much better antagonist than S6 Flocke. But before that Smokey was da shit. I mean, when Ben summoned Smokey to open up a can of whoop-ass on Keamy and his team, who wasn't like "oh, shit!"???
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the writers have said time and time again, Lost is not about the island, it is about the characters. Mainly, Jack. Like no country for old men, "IT just ended!!??" we'll it wasn't about Josh Brolin, is was about Tommy Lee Jones..
It's like hating the empire strikes back because it didn't tell Boba Fetts life story. That's not what It is about. -
My ending would be:
Everyone was zapped into the sidways universe when the Island blew up... In the sideways univese everyone got together and teleported themselves back to the Island after the death of Smoke-zilla and took their time getting off of the Island... There simple... easy... satisfying... (oh and the statue ...) -
We all saw (most of them) die when they blew up the experiment on the Island in the past. Others died before this.
So are you saying the Flashsideways (as the execs called it weeks ago) was actually the ultimate Flashforward?
If so it doesn't explain how they lived on the Island after they died. We also know Hurley is now the protector of the Island with Ben advising so neither should be in Purgatory at all.
Really, you need a degree in bollocks to try and work out his mess and if I need a viewer to try and explain it to me when the writers have failed to do so then that's a big fail and only a viewers opinion on what happened.
As I said, go buy/download the UK Life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes then come back and say, "Madmarek you were right!" -
Devin and his herd of sheep are comical to read.
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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTT. Someone had to say it, because the writer's forgot to put him in the last episode.........
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May 24, 2010 7:50:43 PM CDT
Everyone say it with me........Waaaaaaaaallllllllllttttt!
by yoda's ball sack
Get your frustrations out.
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You're the one in the dark, dum-dum! You come on to a site like this and have the fucking gall to talk about nonsense? Take a look in the mirror, Ball Gropin'.
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It just was not a good ending. Too many unanswered questions and it just proves that the writers were making it up as they went along and did not have the ability to answer everything.
Contrast this with the ending of Babylon 5. That show was planned from day one. As season 1 episode would reference something that you would again hear about season later. It made the payoff greater and it shows what a difference is made when the writers have a plan.
I loved the show during its entire run and had assumed that I would not be happy with the end and I was not. I will say that it was better then the ending was for Battlestar Glactica but not much better.
By the way, best show finale in the next few years was The Shield which shows how to properly end a great tv show. -
...not as funny and pathetic as you and the fucking gaggle of pseudo-intellectual dummies that squat around this site talking shit like a bunch of junior high kids smokin' daddy's stolen cigarettes. Which most of you little whistle-dicks probably are.
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May 24, 2010 7:55:30 PM CDT
lol i just changed my FB profile pic to Christian with the doors
by yourstepdaddy
...yea buddy
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The writers also say that they believe their viewers are intelligent and shouldn't have to spell EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING OUT!
Madmarek, no one died at the end of season 5. Everyone was in "purgatory" at the end because just like Christian says, "everyone dies....there is no now" I took it as in death there is no time frame. So when everyone was in the church he saw people that weren't dead when he died, but they died at one point or another... -
and the way the show persisted in having the characters never ask questions that a normal person would have asked have led to this negative reaction. I mean, the numbers were pretty important. And I get that it was semi explained. Yet that explanation does not make sense when you remember that the numbers were engraved on the hatch door. Why was that? Why would Dharma engrave the numbers on the hatch door? Stuff like that is not a huge part of the show but there were quite a fuck ton of little things like that and I would have loved answers to a lot of them. The mysterys to me were the best part of the show. I loved the characters too, just having some of the mysterys downplayed takes away from the shows greatness.
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Fuckin'-A right. 'bout time somebody on this board talked like they have sense.
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For those of who who think they made it up as they went along because they didn't answer your questions, I totally disagree. Even Matthew Fox said he was the only one who knew from day one what the last scene would be. They probably never wrote explanations about the light or island or whatever else because in the end it was irrelevant to the story they were trying to tell.
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So sick of this auteurist BS being used to justify weak-ass writing.
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May 24, 2010 8:11:49 PM CDT
The cats ending above was far better then the ending to Lost!
by madmarek
Had me in tears it did!
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May 24, 2010 8:13:23 PM CDT
mrfunktion, a lot *was* made up for the hell of it
by hardboiled wonderland
In fact, I'm throwing out seasons 2 and 3 of my dvd collection for that reason, and probably skipping half of season 4. ;-) In season 1, the monster was a Cloverfield/dinosaur, Abrams admitted this. David Fury admitted to me that almost everything in season 1 was made up on the fly with no intention of resolving any of it. Boy did they keep that promise. Season 2 and 3, and some of 4, was just filler, stretching it out for ABC. The producers admitted there were a lot of episodes they regret, they were filler. So please, don't make the producers saints who had a plan like the cylons from the beginning -- they're not perfect. As a goodbye to the characters and island, the finale was great for me -- as closure for all of the mysteries and plothole inconsistencies, the finale failed. Whether the finale succeeded or failed, all depends on what's important to YOU personally.
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....hilarious! no black cat for Michael?
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The ending worked for me. Surprised me and made sense out of the flash sideways. They even figured out a way for Disney to get its spin off series (what happened to Hurley and Ben as they continue on the island). 90% of the stuff I see people whining about not being answered has been answered before (the island is a "cork" that prevents tremendous evil from coming into the world, they told you that was what the island was a month ago, even repeated the episode!). The other 10% are things that really don't matter. And ultimately it was entertaining. So call me a sheep. I liked it.
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the answer couldn't have been more in your face if it was on a billboard. it was addressed. quite definitely.
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Like who Clancy Brown's character was supposed to be? But the big season long stuff, like Widmore, too much buildup to absolutely nada.
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Ty for the explanation. So when the nuke went off why didn't they die?
The official explanation by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse when season 6 started was it's a flash-sideways which suggested a parallel universe had been created with the nuke.
Now it's a flashforward to when they all die, if they all die ofc, they seem to die and come back a lot on this show so I'm sure that wait at the church will take a long time lol! Doesn't sound like made it up as they go along at all!
It's like the last episode of the original Prisoner all over again. The Prisoner was a great show but they simply had no idea how to finish it so came up with a mad ending. "Left it open to interpretation' they did." Sound familiar? -
Fuck you all, I loved the series, even some parts of the terribly weak season six, and the finale was some of the laziest writing I've seen, not only in Lost, but in television.
For all of you who liked it, yay for you, but stop saying that people who didn't are "haters", "dont get it", "are bitchin'" or whatever... it's called an opinion, and mine its as valid as yours.
In Locke's inmortal words:
Don't tell me what I can't do! -
...was a vehicle for Jack to work out his issues, find redemption and complete his heroic journey. To quibble over the details is losing focus of the narrative.
They didn't make a bunch of movies about the Lost Ark of the Convenant after "Raiders," they made movies about Indiana Jones.
Seriously if you can't get over who was behind the Dharma food drop you were watching the wrong show. -
Hugo seeing Charlie again - I loved that scene, just the look of happiness on his face. Clair and Charlie again...but I still feel Jack and Locke's character arcs were betrayed.
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After Hurley & Ben left him as "gone?"
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Doesn't it hurt to know you will never get an answer to that question along with many others?
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Read the entire LA Times review. The woman doesn't even understand what she was watching. The talkbackers there destroy her.
Either way though despite the critics and trolls that was a great ending to a great show. -
The well vomited out Jacob's bro's soul because he wasn't worthy, think they keep heaven down there.
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...will be explained by some viewers no doubt as that's not the job of the writers or anyone else on the show.
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May 24, 2010 8:35:03 PM CDT
How about why was there a kid Jacob that some people saw and oth
by transhuman
Why not just use the grown up version? What the hell was that all about? What were the "game" and the "rules"
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What I would have done? No. But I'm in "I'd have made Rose and Bernard Adam and Eve and a time-traveling Locke into Jacob, or some such thing" camp. Still, to all the critics . . . awesome. You know how to pull of 120 hour of serial television not only better than Lost, but apparently much, much better than Lost. Get to it. I can't wait to see your show.
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... is the fact that it has clearly created two camps of fans who either accept the ending or those who reject it... it goes right along with one of Lost's greatest themes... science vs. faith... logic vs. hope... It's perfect!!!
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is that a lot of diehard fans that were defending the series becauses of its clockwork writting, its enigmatic nature, its mysteries, its originality, are now defending a finale that is the exact opposite of everything they liked about Lost in the beginning... Admit it... you liked the end because it make you tearful to see that characters (precisely the ones the public liked, the principal ones) have a nice and girly send off, Kate with Jack, Sawyer with Juliet, etc... Now I have a challenge to you... watch first season again, and then watch the finale, see if you like it so much then...
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Why does this bloated bitch Taylor get all the focus and screentime? Who the fuck cares about all this? God DAMN this is the year for disappointing fucking finales.
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Is it just didn't have much to do with what we've been watching for six years, other than eventually everyone died and met up and went to heaven.
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A) The people who were watching it for the character arcs, and were reasonably satisfied, or perhaps left with some questions but able to live with it, or are at least able to let it go if they didn't particularly like the way it was done...
And B) The people who lost sleep at night wondering why the statue had 4 toes and demanded everything be force fed to them. It's pretty much the same thing with every dramatic or sci-fi serial. For the record, I've found that 90% of the people that fall into catagory B are virgins. -
The reason there were no more movies about the Lost Ark of the Convenant is because it was a box which melted people's faces when you opened it. Sure the SAW movies have been milking that for years but it's not exactly Lost is it!
Seriously, if this entire series was about one character and a food drop they could have covered it all in one mini-series.
To suggest this show is a one character show is ridiculous, the reason people HAVE found SOME enjoyment in the ending is the great job they did reuniting the characters and finishing their journeys. I have no problem with that, it's the fact they built up so many mysteries over so many years then jumped the shark when they realized they couldn't answer most of them.
People feel (rightly) cheated. -
Lindeloff and Cuse didn't officialy say anything about the flash-sideways universe being an alternate universe created by the explosion. That's just what you assumed, and if you've paid attention to anything on this show, you'd know that assumptions are for assholes.
If you're so enamored of your arbitrary assumptions, go write some fanfic, bucko. -
How in the world can ANY OF U not like the finale? Seriously had hope for TBs but reading hate speech yet again. Those critics are almost as bad. Seriously think Time Magazine could have been the only critic who actually watched the finale.
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If you don't get the ending, you need to watch the last 15 minutes again. Christian Shephard pretty much explains everything... almost.
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One which doesn't fit in with your close-minded view of the world.
I loved the characters AND the mysteries. I've felt I've only been given 50% of the satisfaction and I'm not a virgin, I shag dogs and penguins every single day!
It doesn't help I watched the ending to Ashes to Ashes last week which managed to answer ALL the questions on the show AND give closure to all the characters. Proves it can be done, and done really well. Lost failed in comparison, you can resort to calling anyone who disagrees with you a virgin or throw abuse left right and center all you want, doesn't make you right...just demeans whatever point you were trying to make. -
The BBC Life on Mars ended. So, everybody's different.
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I'll ignore your REALLY overused insults, and just speak to your general point.I'd agree that some people are overly concerned with details, but Lost (for the majority of its existence) was NOTHING BUT DETAILS. the makers set up all these little puzzles with numbers, little hints, lines, insinuations...and some, nay, MOST people that were watching the show were expecting that the "ending" would adress and at least PARTIALLY explain all of these little puzzles and hints. the finale answered NONE of that, it was basically just a finale to season 6. I don't think it's just "basement virgins" (as you, so originally, implied) that are feeling gipped. look at the reviews above, read the general complaints anywhere online.it's dismissive to claim that everyone that's dissatisfied with the finale is just some obsessed, virginal freak.Lost gave the world 6 years of twists and turns, and hints, and puzzles, and clues, and they were all in service of a witless, uninspired premise, where almost NONE of the twists and turns mattered at all. if that sits fine with you, great. you're easy to please. if people expected a little more, don't fault them for it.
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Fuck you and your opinions
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I think what kind of bothers people about not having certain mysteries resolved is that we were led to think they would be. Things were introduced that were seemingly important, the show built up on this, and then it was left behind like it was nothing. I didn't need all the answers, and I was happy we saw the characters finish their adventure, but all those ads of "THE ANSWERS ARE COMING" were full of it. Way too many things were left unresolved that were critical to the story and made to seem important.
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Resorting to abuse just makes you look frustrated and demeans any argument you ever may have had. Gratz!
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I totally agree with you, sir
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...I've defended the show based on their ability to keep me engaged with mysteries, and their knack for dropping clues that hang around for years before you even know my mystery they are a clue to.
LOST has always been at its best when it dangles some crazy perspective-shifting event in front of you and then leaves you to think about it all summer long, when the new season starts, it sorta-kinda answers your curiosity, but then piles some new mystery on top of that one.
I prefer that the feeling I'm left with after the finale is just an amped up version of that same feeling I had after the blew open the hatch, and after The Others kidnapped Jack an Hurley and Kate and Sawyer, and after we saw Locke's body in the coffin, and after the nuke blew up. Anything else would have done a massive diservice to all the things that made LOST so great. -
of them walking to someplace and talking about walking there. Season 6 was pretty much lousy all around and the finale was a perfect ending for it.
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And I completely get why people would be disappointed or really, really not like it. But when they start suggesting the people who don't agree with them have some intrinsic flaw because they enjoyed something that others didn't, or vice versa . . . that just gets weird. Can't we all just get along?
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How does pointing out your confusion between official statements and your assumptions abuse?
You said: "The official explanation by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse when season 6 started was it's a flash-sideways which suggested a parallel universe had been created with the nuke."
The second part of that statement about them 'suggesting' a parallel universe is your assumption.
And the line about you writing fanfic was 'snark', not 'abuse'. -
Just like to add if we are stupid for making assumptions about a show which the entire premise had people making assumptions for 6 years, it's funny that people are making statements of fact about what the ending actually meant..when it was never explained clearly at all.
You are making assumptions/theories as to what the ending is.
It speaks volumes the producers and writers have said publicly they will not comment on the ending of the show after it has aired. If you are right, why will they not confirm it? -
You implied I was an asshole and also implied I should just sod off and write fan fic. If you want to debate Lost fine, try and keep it civil ok.
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and i dont consider myself to be lazy. the ending was good but i expected some kind of big reveal in the moments after jack closes his eyes. the writers spent so much time in the mysteries that shrouded the show that i really expected to get a good jolt right there at the end. i like the finale but i cant say it was on the money.
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Well spoken. I'm tired of people saying "THIS is how it is! It's obvious!" You know what, not much was obvious on that show. Everyone needs to chill the fuck out.
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If there had been allusions to the cork, including the big stone mystery cork, a little earlier. If Jacob and MiB had been foreshadowed a little earlier on. If there had been at least one significant puzzle that was causing big trouble, and suddenly someone realized the numbers were the answer to it. Something that came backto answer a challenge in the story. If there was a throwback to "hey, for some reason something that happened in Dharmaville makes me think pulling out a big stone cork will make smokey killable!"Also would have been cool if, at the last minute, Pierre Change showed up with a giant magnetic-energy gun. "I've been working on this since 1992!" he screams, and blasts the smoke monster.
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....for those of us who liked the finale to disparage those who didn't and think that they just didn't get it or are too dense to understand but I don't think that is the case. It is all opinion and everyone's is valid, even if it disagrees with our own. So, lighten up, it's just a TV show.
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...sorry my rhetorical flourish was taken as a personal insult. I seriously didn't mean it that way. And I didn't realize fanfic was such a dagger to your dignity.
I love debating LOST, and would gladly go at it with you. So let's start over:
The fun of LOST is making assumptions about various things, yes. But the funner fun of LOST is watching how they subvert your expectations (Desmond was in the Hatch?, The Others have a book club? Locke was in a wheelchair?, That was a flash-FORWARD?!). There are some valid complaints people might have about LOST depending on their personal tastes. Complaining because your assumption was wrong is not one of those valid complaints. -
An idea why no babies could be born on the island if they were conceived there. Sometime in the late 1980s (can't recall when the no child problem happened). Smokey almost killed Jacob. He had taken a child, an infant and raised it himself, groomed for one purpose - kill the island's guardian. He/she may have came very close to it, even going as far as injuring Jacob. A new rule went into effect, no woman who became pregnant on the island would live long enough to give birth, her and the unborn child would perish. In addition, the order was given to The Others to abduct any child that arrives on the island. They just assumed it was to increase their numbers, not because Jacob feared a repeat. As for my feeling on the finale. I liked it. I don't feel cheated. I'm in category "A". I would have wanted more answers, but I'm soooo glad it didn't end like Alias, which told us nothing.
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they didn't fuck over Hurley or Desmond, so I was cool with the ending. Yeah, they could have explained more, but they explained enough.
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I like the ending the more I think about it. At the moment, I was kind of disappointed that it didn't answer all of my mystery questions and such. But much like the ending to Quantum Leap wasn't immediately satisfying, the ending fit the characters and what was needed to bring their story to a close. And really, why answer all the Dharma questions in the finale? You think ABC isn't going to have comic books and other ancillary stuff coming out now?
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What a fitting way to end the series. I´m still quite numb over it, will give it some time and watch it again. Sure it didnt explain everything but i´m not complaining.
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Lost in a nutshell.
* People crash or are brought to the island.
* People die on the island.
* People get magically or normally transported off island. People must go back - dead or alive.
* Children who are needed - but for what? 4,8,15,16,23,42 - everywhere, even on drugs. A computer and a button. Many hatches and an under water sea base. 4 toed statues. Egyptian carvings. Conscience scanning, metamorphing, life taking and giving smoke monster. A magic box that would bring anything you wished hard enough for. A ghost almost no-one can see or hear named Jacob - who is then not a ghost and everyone can see him. An exiled rich man who wants to return to and control the source of the island - even if it has no practical, mythological or religious use. A donkey wheel. A moving island. Many EM sources - but the main source DHARMA could not find even though it had already been found... and other questions gone unanswered.
* People die off the island. Assassinations. Suicide attempts.
* Character flash backs, flash forwards, flashes to other parallel time lines. All of no consequence other than to establish whether a character is of good or bad moral standing.
* Everyone dies. Now lets choose to go to heaven or not bother.
Quite frankly - an awesome ride or journey. Many episodes were watched and re-watched. Seasons replayed from start to end... Many of the characters have found peace, but what did I take from this journey? What did I discover? What questions were answered? Nothing, nothing and none. Sci-fi or just fiction, LOST has been an incredible, indulgent waste of everyone's time.
It would be sane not to go through it again. -
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Episodes that should have been in the first four this season were Across the Sea and Ab Aeterno. The story of Jacob and the nameless brother, Mother and the smoke monster and what the island was all about should have been a theme this whole season, to give more meaning to what the survivors were all doing on the island. I'm glad they're all in heaven together though, that is nice.
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comic books -- the monthly flimsy things -- because I was sick of really getting into some elaborate intricate story and having the writer quit or be canceled or whatever. Now I read "graphic novel" collections of comics where the ending has to be there before I start. After the end of Battlestar Galactica, I swore I was never again going to fall from one of these "we leave you clues to our massive intricate plot that we have totally worked out" things (like Twin Peaks) until they had finished the series. After the first few episodes of Lost, I said I wouldn't watch more until they had completed it and it had an ending that actually made sense.
Now I never will and I am VERY glad. -
...I concede that it was a mistake to place "Across the Sea" so late in the season. When I get the DVDs later this summer, I'll probably watch that episode first, then everything else.
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on sales of the blu ray box set.
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Shane murders Clem, his wife and son; Corinne and the kids are in witness protection; and Dutch collars Ronnie in front of Vic, who has earned a federal pardon despite being a cold-blooded cop killer. That's some good writing there. Maybe I'll watch Lost next. Maybe.
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Now that I already understand it I have to say it is one of the most beautiful and moving things I've ever seen. Matthew Fox was incredible in those final scenes and the moments with him and Kate, him and Christian, and his joy at seeing his old friends is a perfect ending to the story. There won't be another show like it
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MIB and Jacob were just add ons and no one gave a fuck. If they had just left Smokey as Locke and no Jacob we'd be happier.
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I agree everyone can have their own opinion.But please quit bitching that the ending was, "some christian bullshit."The church was just a setting not representative of a religious view. The stained glass window even represented several religions.Christianity does not say we all hang out in limbo, until our buddies decide to go to Heaven.
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Define success. Prove success.
As a TV show looking to get decent ratings? As some sort of indulgent view of the human condition? As a means to create questions that would never be answered?
No-one gave a crap about the Imperial senate in Star Wars beyond the fact that there once was one and that's how the Empire was born.
By contrast, why would anyone even bother to build a giant 4 toed statue on an island - why not build a boat instead? If the only way to move the island is to turn the donkey wheel, then the island's been stuck in the same place an awful long time. It's surprising more people weren't resident.
As a science fiction story that attempts to mix semi-realistic characters with 'magic'... Lost is a failure. At least there's was a point to all the magic in The Prestige, etc. -
With the exception of the first and last episodes, the entire fucking season was filler. Not too mention the ending contradicted the bomb at the end of season 5. If the flash sideways was purgatory, then the bomb didn't create an alternate universe, so all of the island stuff in season six shouldn't have existed because everybody should have been dead.
Ah, fuck it. It's over and done with. -
The discovery and the journey is the fun part. people didn't seem to like the episode that was about MIB & Jacob - why? - because it was about answers. We want the characters doing stuff, not learning stuff. The best parts of the finale were the reunions and revelations of the "flash sideways" characters - it gave us back all the characters we liked one last time. The action with the golden pool's cork was like Spock's death scene in Wrath of Kahn. It wasn't the important part - saying goodbye to Jack and the rest surviving at his expense was the emotion of the island-bound part of the finale. Earlier in the season, I was glad to see Dogen and Lennon killed- they were full of exposition & were slowing things down.
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LOST's gotta eat.
LOST ate my time. -
The light at the heart of the island is the growing light from a hydroponic pot farm. That's what they're protecting. It gives the island it's healing propert... Hey. Where are you going? What you don't like my theory?? It's a as valid as any other answer as to what's happening on the island seeing as the writers DIDNT FUCKING BOTHER TO WRITE ANY!
Fuck! -
...no, the bomb threw the Losties back to the present day, and caused a big mess that Dharma was left to deal with...see: Marvin Candle's Swan Station orientation video.
Again: just because you assumed something that ended up not being true doesn't mean the show failed. Pick something legitimate to complain about please. -
that Ashes to Ashes beat Lost to it.
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Clearly miss what happened on the show? I have seen at least 3-4 reviews, including the LA Times, that literally believed "Everyone on the island was always dead."
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"Which was real? The Island or Purgatory? It seems maybe both?" Both were real.
The trick is to pay attention. Re-watch Christian and Jacks conversation and PAY ATTENTION !!!
"Basically mate if the majority of the audience don't know it's the writers fault for not making anything clear."
No, its not...Its not their fault the majority of TV watchers are now stupid and need everything spoon fed to them because they cant FIGURE THINGS OUT on their own. -
Good point about the aftereffects of the bomb-forgot about that. But I never said the show failed. It was a great but flawed show. The ending was touching, but too many questions were left unanswered.
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And she's not even a virgin. Poor guy, ripped off!!!
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May 24, 2010 10:01:40 PM CDT
Palpatine and maxwell's hammer, I think you're both wrong
by jackslater4
I don't think the bomb ever went off, I think the eltromagnetic discharge known as "the incident" is what pushed them forward through time.
This would explain why Juliet was still alive, I also think the un-detonated bomb is what was built into the failsafe in the hatch. -
Did the writers decide he had to "let go" of her, and get with Shannon again so they could bring back Maggie Grace for a cameo? Maggie's gotta eat! Seriously, that was worse than Marion's cameo in Indiana Jones Crytal Skull, so forced.
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in the flash sideways. I doubt Nadia ever cared for Sayid.
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...I guess I suspected something happened with the bomb (whether it detonated and reacted with all the Swan enegery or a flag with the word 'BANG" popped out, we'll never know) which served as the impetus for propelling the LOSTIES back to their own time.
But the concreted passage Sayid and Jack found all them years ago I guess lend credence to your point that its still buried in a secret passage under the Swan rubble. -
"profesisonal" critic? That's another question the finale didn't answer.
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Kept alive in an heavenly waiting room just to be used as a prop for other characters to shoot.
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The answers are all there, if you just paid attention. The bomb detonation propelled them forward in time, and in fact was the very event that precipitated the creation of the hatch in the first place. In effect, Jack, in trying to stop the course of events, was actually the CREATOR of the events. Once again, this is all right there if people paid attention. The more I read TBs, the more I realize it isnt that the show didnt give AN answer, its that they didnt give you YOUR answer, the one you were expecting and hoping for.
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any more then that was a real police badge that Sawyer was holding. It was all a fabricated reality based on the shared experiences of the castaways.
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Countless reviews, critics, forums posters, talkbackers... everyone is saying "This finale gave us NO answers to the COUNTLESS questions raised by the show throughout the series' run"
Not a single person online has actually asked a QUESTION that wasn't answered by the show directly or indirectly. Seriously - if you want to bitch about the lack of answers, ask a QUESTION! Maybe someone (through a combination of paying attention to little details of the show, and coming to logical conclusions) has figured it out for you! -
Watch the episode about Desmond after he turned the failsafe key. He ended up in a perfect life back with Penny before things went to shit. Only Eloise was there to tell him he had to go back and do things.
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Yes, Lost is a great show. But no, great characters and great plots are not mutually exclusive. And sorry, but the plot is a big part of the show. When you describe Lost to your friends, aren't the mysteries among the first things you mention? Lost had any number of opportunities to provide answers over the years. Instead, they were cloying. A lot of: "What happened?" "There's no time to explain!" They were clearly making up the sci fi as they went along. Then we got some big, fat, hard-to-swallow answers for the biggest questions at the last second, which raised a whole bunch of new, smaller questions. The people who just care about the mysteries are lame, but so are the people who just care about the characters. It's not crazy for a series finale to be satisfying, and still not tie everything up in a bow (See "The Wire"). In the end, "overjoyed the heart and annoyed the brain" is the best way to put it. Loved all the character arcs. It's just a shame that they couldn't provide satisfying answers to the mysteries, over the course of SIX YEARS. It is a great, but flawed show, Losties. Great, but flawed.
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A cork keeping the evil substance from coming out of a hole and destroying everything. It makes perfect sense now.
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Really? If it was then why did the producers beg the network to give them an end date so they can end the show? Why not let the network string it out for another season or two? People are angry because they didn't get the answers they wanted but so many of the questions have common sense answers but since it wasn't explicitly spelled out then it wasn't answered.
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Cause they were dead already. And Jack didn't really need to operate on Locke because he walked at the end.
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-The polar bears were brought to the island by the Dharma Initiative in order to firstly be test subjects for the effects of the island's unique electromagnetism and secondly to turn the donkey wheel in other experiments. This is a fact backed up by details of the show.
-Walt had the power to 'summon' living things subconciously, and later consciously, but he was never a candidate so once he left the island, it was done with him and there was no reason for him to be involved in the plot later. The Others wanted him because they wanted to firstly limit the amount of children on the island, secondly figure out his power and maybe use it to help with their goals, and thirdly to get Micheal to do what they wanted. -
Must hate David Lynch movies. I like being able to speculate. If I had all the answers it would nullify every tantalizing aspect.
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Asks Juemad. Because asking for an end date was the same as asking for 3 year renewal and on fear of being canceled, that's why. Once they had an end date/3 year renewal, it didn't matter anymore if it was great, just pad it out anyway possible and get it done.
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Look, while I agree that sidways world was a big tease, it did give the characters an opportunity for emotional resolution--ie a happy ending--that they otherwise didn't get. And that is, at least partially, the point. That they found each other.
And not to belabor the point...FINDING was the theme of sideways world. Once were lost and now were found.
There is only a finite number of ways that a show can answer the question of what is sideways land--parallel dimension, alternative universe, real life, or afterlife.
No matter what we would have had 1 of those 4 choices. No matter what, someone would have been unhappy with a "predictable" or "lame" ending. The fact is that the showrunners loved their characters and totally undercut their "everyone is expendable" rule. In fact, everyone was important.
The emotional resonance of the reunions on sideways world cannot be topped. And meanwhile on the island, the main story--surviving smokey--was resolved in a totally adventuresome way.
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May 24, 2010 10:40:07 PM CDT
I dont know how to do paragraph breaks, but heres more answers
by deancubed
-The sideways-verse was a purgatory-like reality that exists. When people died (no matter when or how), they began life in that reality in order to make peace with themselves and find true happiness and closure. When they were ready, they move on. Those that weren't ready can stay as long as they want. ---- The Dharma food crate was dropped on the island for the Dharma people by the Hanso parent company, but because of the island's special properties and human miscalculation, Faraday realized that those drops may have been sent years before they finally landed on the island. Time on the island is a variable, not a constant. ----- The hurley bird is just a bird, and Hugo was just imagining it sounded like his name. LOTS of characters hallucinated on the island and also MiB could take the form of animals if he chose. None of these animals became important to the plot so no further explanation is necessary. It's not a mystery if it just doesnt matter.
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slow motion + weepy musical cues = THANKS FOR WATCHING! If they were going to essentially turn it into a big "Let us look back on all those that died" Academy Awards-styled montage (minus y'know, THE MONTAGE) then they could've shaved down the show to an hour at most.
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Please face it: the show was about the island and the characters on it. Well, no one explained the island, and "they all died and went to heaven" is what you tell little kids. Its great all the characters ended up happy. Really, I am happy for those fictional characters. But I didn't spend my time wondering "What happens to Jack? What happens to Kate? Oh god will they end up together?" I have a life so I don't need more of shit about people. I really wanted to know what the hell the mystery of the island was about. Instead it was just a big macguffin. I'd rather watch a Michael Bay movie, at least that way I am not being misled. This was the only JJ Abrams production I was ever intersted in, and it blew it. He's officially on my black list, I don't give a fuck what he makes. If I see Super 8, its cause of Spielberg. The name JJ Abrams means "sham". And Colverfield sucks balls. This guy is like the chick that plays all sexy but in the end you find out shes a virgin and doesnt know how to give a blowjob.
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type for paragraph breaks
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Instead of the sappy theme?
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...I know some haters will disagree, but to anyone paying attention, the last three seasons argueably had the LEAST amount of padding of the whole series! Some of the storylines weren't all that interesting (I'm looking at you kate-centric storylines) but with then end date set, things tightened up and moved a helluva lot faster.
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just like Season one.
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Hope this is helping people to better understand 6 years of their lives they think they've "wasted" because the don't know how to use the information given. ----- The island has been around for a very long time, and can move around. There has always been a protector of the life force it contains and like Pandora's box, the island also contains evil if the seal is broken. LOTS of people from various cultures have found the island, including whoever built the pre-Dharma structures. Some of these cultures have had a better understanding of the supernatural 'sciences' that are a part of the island. Tons of people believe the ancient Mayans predicted the end of the world - whether thats true or not is irrelevant. What's important is that if you open your mind to accept that some supernatural shit goes on at this place, its not hard to believe that a lighthouse can see people's lives, and that some characters can speak and see the dead.
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...yeah I bet you've met lots of girls who won't give you a blowjob. ZING!!
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May 24, 2010 10:48:12 PM CDT
Dear captain_kirk re: "Stop hating, fuckfaces"
by hardboiled wonderland
Stop referring to those with valid criticisms as 'haters'. I enjoyed the finale, but I also have a ton of criticism -- am I a hater? A 'fuckface'? Seriously, that level of abuse is infantile and just gives the real haters ammunition against 'apologists'. ;-)
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Both reactions are valid! Accept it and move on...
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... an AICN talkback. Mark my words. We'll be stuck with each other and no one will move on.
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More answers!
I swear I'm just typing these as they come to me, im not looking anything up. Everything I've said is just based on what i saw the show present, and just enough fanwanking to be satisfied with the answers.
The trick is - fanwanking only works if you WANT to be satisfied. The people that WANT to be haters can feel free to bitch all they want, but with a bit of critical thinking they too could have been as content with the show as the rest of us.
---- The only people that died in the finale were Jack and MiB. Everyone else survived or was already dead.
---- Widmore came back to the island this season because Jacob explained himself a bit to him, and made him realize that MiB must not be released. Widmore's rivalry with Ben is all about ego. They both wanted to lead the others and be special, and when Widmore took steps toward his goals, Ben resented it and banished him. Not mystically - all Ben did was kick him out of the Others and send him back to the world. The island is naturally hard to find but not impossible so Widmore was able to come back (probably using coordinants and timing that Faraday's mom and other people have calculated) -
Ok here are some questions for you: When did the characters actually die? What is the light source inside the island? Who put the cork there? Why did the MiB become a black smoke monster but Jack died? Why could no one leave the island? Why did it travel through time? Who built the statue? Why come Jacob chose candidates who were unlike him (ie lie, cheat, steal, messed up) when he is dedicated and doesn't lie? How did Jacobs adopted mom get there in the first place? How did Dharma and Whidmore get there seemingly on demand but no one else could? Why could no one have a baby on the island? Why did Jacob want to have someone replace him? Why did people end up on the island...did Jacob cause them or was it by chance/fate? How did he have knowledge/control of either of those solutions?I guess it really comes down to whether you care if characters are just part of a stories or if stories are just part of characters.
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why is Desmond EM resistant?
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Never watched any of the prior episodes, but I must say that last scene was touching as hell. I had no idea what was really going on, but it resonated with me. Nice work there.
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May 24, 2010 11:03:00 PM CDT
These answers should NOT be taken as an "fu" to people with vali
by deancubed
criticisms. No show is perfect, Lost is no exception. But while there are lots of valid reasons to dislike the finale and this season in general - there are certain bits of information that might make the difference between 'enjoy' and 'annoyed' for some people. I'm just trying to help.
---- The nuke did NOT create sideways-verse but it DID bring the losties to their correct timelines and WAS the "incident" that the Dharma people referred to. The Swan station was built on that spot because of the convergence of electromagnetic forces and the button was there so that these forces could charge up and release safely without doing damage to things or bringing planes down that fly overhead. When Desmond missed a countdown, Oceanic 815 was brought down.
---- A combination of residual radiation and the shots that the Others gave people were why mothers could not give birth on the island. Jacob wanted to make sure MiB couldn't raise a protege to kill him, and the Others wanted to control their population so that the island could continue to sustain them.
Electromagnetism, radiation, and other 'sciencey' things that aren't supernatural in nature are the basis of countless happenings in other sci-fi shows like Star Trek, superhero origin stories, etc. and Lost is free to use them in the same way. This is not a cop-out, it is technojargon similar to how the Enterprise can always divert power to the main deflector dish in order to fix any rips in spacetime/exploding stars/black holes/anomalies/etc.
Just accept this technojargon and move on, TV shows will ALWAYS use these devices to further the plot and like I said, no show is perfect. -
During some of the rememberance montage stuff, was Wash Away, the song from the end of tabula rasa. It fits the show's theme well.
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Locke goes in the side door.
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I'm gonna go watch "Surfer,Dude".
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When did the characters actually die? ---- Every character in the show died as it was presented in the show. Jin/Sun in the sub, Sayid in the sub, Boone and Shannon in a previous season, Ana Lucia when Michael shot her, etc. Kate, Sawyer, Lapidus, Miles, Alpert, and Claire (the new AJIRA 6! Imagine the press field day when Kate comes home again - she gets free flights on TWO airlines now!) all survived the finale but died at some point in the future after the show ended. Hence Kate saying how much she missed Jack - she lived a while after he died on the island. It is implied that the Ajira plane safely got the 6 of them rescued. But Time has no meaning in the Sideways-verse, and because of how important the island's events were to those people, everyone appears (and the church is also from Jack's perspective - they might all have seen the church interior differently) as they were most recognized on the island.
What is the light source inside the island? ---- A life source, possibly dating back to Creation, or just the life of the island itself, or the life of all things 'supernatural' in the world (including the island). While the exact thing isn't laid out of us, based on your personal beliefs, religion, etc feel free to pick any of those - the point is it is worth protecting for all time. -
When did the characters die?
They all died in their own time. Jack at the end of the show; Boone and Shannon a while back; Kate and Sawyer, later on; Ben and Hurley, much later one...everyone in their own time. But as Christian explained, in the place where they all ended up (the sideways universe) time doesn't exist, so no matter when the died, they all met there, together, and moved on together.
Jack becoming a monster?
perhaps the smoke monster needed some kind of host to leave the cave in which it was trapped. When Jacob tossed his brother into the cave, he unwittingly gave the monster a host, at which point it escaped. When Jack went into the cave, the monster was already out of the bottle, so to speak.
Who put the cork there? Who built the statue? Where did Mother come from?
I think these are the types of questions that don't need to be answered. Yeah, there could be a story there, but that would be a lot of episodes to explain things that aren't relevant (in my opinion) to the story. Answering those questions would be like bringing up Midichlorians in Phantom Menace.
Dharma and Widmore getting to the island?
It was pretty clear that getting to the island wasn't impossible, just difficult. The Dharma sub apparently made regular runs, both when it was under control of the Initiative and when The Others were controlling it. Multiple times, we saw Others off the island (Richard recruiting Juliet, Tom recruiting Michael, etc...)
Why could women not have babies?
We know at some point pre-incident, they could. See: the birth of Ethan. We know at some point post-incident they couldn't. I always suspected that in the time it took the Dharma folks to cap the electromagnetic stuff flowing out of the Swan site before the station could be completed and the machinery put in place to keep it under control, enough radiation got out and caused permenant damage to that particular process for all women in residence.
I know there were other questions, but I'm tired and must sleep now. -
Dudes, Dharma had a station the mainland called the Lamp Post. They used that to track the island.
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Who put the cork there? ----Some ancient culture that understands the mystical supernatural stuff better than our culture does. Like the ancient Egyptians or Mayans or aliens for all we know - the point is they understood it and also thought it was worth protecting.
Why did the MiB become a black smoke monster but Jack died? ---- Like Pandora's Box, the life trapped within the light also contains darkness. Either the smoke monster was MiB's soul ripped from his body and able to possess dead things and accumulate their collective experiences like Brainiac or a Trill from Star Trek, or a living entity itself that can do the same thing and is motivated by MiB's original personality as its first host. Either way, it may or may not be evil, but it certainly can be the source of great pain and destruction and would be very dangerous to let loose on the rest of the planet. Jack didn't become a monster firstly because he didn't die in the cave, and also because there's only one smoke monster and it died in Locke's body on the cliff. Why could no one leave the island? ---- People could if they knew how, either with correct coordinants calculated by figuring out Time and location of the island (like Faraday and his mom did) or by knowing that the Donkey Wheel once turned is a portal to Tunisia for some reason. Don't know why Tunisia of all places, but its a way off the island and to most of the characters that used it - that was all they cared about.
Why did it travel through time? ---- The island didn't travel through time, but the people on it did because of the technobabble/electromagnetism/nuclearness of the situation. I'm sure Faraday or Desmond could explain it better than me. Point is, the island moving in combination with a nuke going off, in combination with the specialness of the characters we followed caused a screw-up in the space-time continuum. But honestly if you want a solid answer to how time travel works on ANY show, you can go screw yourself. Because honestly the island might as well contain a giant flux capacitor.
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Interesting to see if Lost will. The show has been a classic, and I was into last night's ep but that ending has left me with mixed-up feelings.
My take on it is that the whole series took place in the mind of Jack as he lay dying on the beach. That means no flash backs, no flash forwards or sideways worlds, no father at the end saying it was all real. Even no plane flying overhead as Jack lay on the beach just before he closed his eye. Explains everything in one swift swoop. They weren't all dead already because they never existed anyway. Maybe they were people Jack knew before the crash, we'll never know. There could have been other survivors from the crash, that's besides the point. All we know is that a guy that looked like Matthew Fox was mortally wounded from a plane crash and died on a beach.
I have no mixed up feelings about the plot or the mysteries, my problem is how do I really feel that the show was all in this man's head? Guess I feel kinda sad, and I think the shots of the plane wreckage at the end brought that home even more. They seemed so desolate, so tragic that the terrible lonely death of a guy on a strange foreign beach and the beautiful, fascinating vision he had assumes a special poignancy.
Much like the ending of Quantum Leap, ultimately it made my heart ache a little. Life's like that. -
Maxwell is luckily giving very similar answers to me, which is great cause it likely means both of us are on the right track :)
Who built the statue? ---- Ancient culture that might have also built other stuff like temples and lighthouses and corks, but also might have arrived later and just wanted to either worship something (like jacob or smokey or Tawaret from home) or wanted to just leave their mark inukshuk style.
Why come Jacob chose candidates who were unlike him (ie lie, cheat, steal, messed up) when he is dedicated and doesn't lie? ----- this question is based on misinformation. Jacob told us himself why he chose the candidates in the episode before the finale. They were chosen because they WERE like him, and all needed the island as much as it needed them. They were flawed and alone and he basically just thought they passed the roommate test like Sheldon Cooper. It's probably related to the game he was playing with MiB to pass the time on the island (watch people arrive, bet on if they would kill each other before killing one of Jacob/MiB, debate their morality)
How did Jacobs adopted mom get there in the first place? ---- Lots of people have been on the island over millennia. She was probably given the job by someone who was given the job by someone who was given the job by Adam and Ever or some crap. Point is - there's always been an island, theres always been magic and life in the world, and someone has always needed to protect it from the greedy humans who want power. The island probably formed the basis for the Atlantis legend, Pandora's Box, lots of Bible stuff, etc.
a few of the next questions were answered so im skipping ahead... -
This was a key point in the show. This isnt some dream or anything, the island is real, magic is real, everything mattered. The only thing that wasn't 'real' (and it could be argued that all realities are just as real as each other, i.e. heaven is real, purgatory is real, or whatever you believe) was the sideways-verse, and that was explained as a waiting place for people to get closure after they died and find contentment and each other.
Why did Jacob want to have someone replace him? ---- he never wanted the job in the first place, has eternal guilt for what he did to his brother, and thought he deserved a break. Also he might have known Obi-Wan style that we was going to die soon. It's up to the protector of the island how long they want the job, but someone's gotta do it.
Why did people end up on the island...did Jacob cause them or was it by chance/fate? Jacob created their fate by influencing/touching their lives throughout time. However, thats not to say that Hurley used the same tactics after the show ends with him as the protector. The protector makes the rules.
How did he have knowledge/control of either of those solutions? ---- it definitely seemed that with great power comes great responsibility. Er... i mean... when you get the job, you get the knowledge of what you can and can't do. Asking who sets the rules for the protectors powers and what knowledge they get is like asking why gravity works exactly the way it seems to mathematically. Either God did it, or a non-God something did it, or its always been that way, or math and science are shams and we live in the matrix. Or something. -
Christians believe that Christ had no sin, and that everyone needs Christ to get to heaven. Lost says that Christ's sins were washed away by John the Baptist and that the only thing you need to do to "move on" is to "work out some issues."
Lost had a lot of religious references, but is in no way a Christian work.
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I can't really think of any more things that people might not have gotten answers to, I think i covered most of it. But i'd be happy to take a crack at anything else. I certainly can answer these questions better than the actors could on Kimmel the other night - that seemed strange that none of them payed much attention to all the stuff we fans are worrying about (maybe we should take the hint?).
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Reading some of you people's theories about the show, I am all but convinced the vast majority of you are functionally retarded. No wonder you hated the finale so much.
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May 24, 2010 11:51:54 PM CDT
… I was by turns moved, engrossed, and deeply irritated. But mai
by berserkr
Summed it up PERFECTLY for me, i really enjoyed it and it was HIGHLY emotional when each in turn finally remembered.....but then it was all taken away in the stupid ending, would have much preferred a parallel universe over death.
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in that there is probably no hope for people that think the show was ruined because Walt and Eko weren't in the finale, or that they didnt get what was up with the polar bears the whole time. i mean - they even kept kate and sawyer in the polar bears' cages! We've known since then that Dharma brought them here. Anyway im rambling - point is I hope I've been of some help, and I hope that there aren't too many people that WANT to hate on the show and won't accept my explanations as "good enough". On the other hand, I have my own criticisms of the final and of the show, but they aren't related to "not enough answers!!!". Mostly things like character choices, effects shots, dialogue, pacing, etc. And none were a big enough deal to not enjoy the show for what it is - a fantastic piece of modern fiction.
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May 25, 2010 12:06:34 AM CDT
Peolple would have been more satisfied with something cooldumb
by margot_tenenbaum
...instead of super-cliched half-assed TV spirituality.
They should have had Jack and Hurley spend the last episode manipulating Locke into just the right position to have a DHARMA food pallet crush him. They could predict the timing because Hurley figured out the frequency of the drops via the numbers. Or something.
I think most people wanted a good punch line more than anything else. -
You all are entitled to your opinion of the show. I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed the ending and am content with watching this show obsessively for six years.
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I'm glad someone other than me can see that they really DID answer most of the important questions. The one thing that has been driving me nuts about all the "haters" is that a lot of thier so called "unanswered questions" WERE answered...they just weren't super obvious in-your-face answers. I don't mind legitimate gripes, and there are some to be had, but complaining about things like "We never found out how the polar bear got to the desert" is just stupid because 1)it was somewhat obvious that Darhma was experimenting with animals, and we know they had bear cages, and we know they were sending bunnies through time, and we know that when poeple turn the Donkey wheel they end up in the desert...If they explained anymore, Id feel like the writers thought I was too dumb to connect those dots...but apparently some peole are. I had a friend who was pissed because they "never explained who the people at the temple were" It took me ten minutes to convince him they were just the rest of the Others, and we just hadn't met all of the Others yet...he thouth they were a whole new group of people...even though Cindy and the kids were with them, Ben had SENT the others to the temple, and the dude from "Always Sunny" basically said "hey kids! remember my bit part from three seasons ago??...when I was an OTHER??" So I guess the point to my rant is...if you are going to whine, make sure you aren't just complaining that there are "w's" in your bag of M&Ms, because when you do that it makes you look dumb.
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It is the superior show.
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Superior to what? Across the Sea? Strangers in a Strange Land? Fire+Water?
I do like Fringe but the show has done way more filler than LOST did during its first few seasons. -
I love how the majority of criticisms being leveled at the finale are coming from people who obviously didn't pay attention to it at all. Doesn't surprise me...our ADD culture can't handle a show like LOST. But if you think the finale was "Jacob's Ladder," you need to watch the scene with Christian Shepherd again.
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May 25, 2010 12:29:27 AM CDT
I thought Hurley was going to eat the Island when be became "jac
by eddiemurphyslaugh
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Why did Jacob appear as a boy to some people on the island and not to others? Why did he appear as a boy at all? I guess I can speculate that the way he was able to do all the things he did after dying was that he actually was meeting with Hurley as a grown man and being seen by Sawyer as a boy because he was somehow time traveling, setting up his plan to defeat the (pointlessly?) nameless brother and save the island, but I don't know that for sure because they didn't explain that. I think it would have been a good episode or story to tell over the course of the season, perhaps explaining a little more how everyone got to be where they are and why, exploring more the history and resolving the biggest mysteries of the island.
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I havent seen Etenal SUnshine of the Spotless Mind yet but I know that my friends who have seen it say that if you are going through a relationship problem or breakup that that film is rapturous....well that is how the Lost finale was for me....but in a different ways. Now, there is so much speculation about it all....that there will be so many different feelings with this ending that I guess the only contribution I can make after reading what everyone has posted is to share my own experience. Well, I know there are plenty of non-believers and even atheists on this talkback and I can imagine the ending must have left you frustrated....but for any believers on here...maybe you wil understand me. I have been going through a crisis lately where I believe but I need help for my unbelief....i have been reasoning things too much in these days....and question is God really real and is there an afterlife? even though deep inside I knew there was. This show just reached in an grabbed my heart on such a deep level that I just forgot all about the answeres that I was demanding....and that for me was very much like a portrait of my life over the last year and what God has been teaching me. THis show....like life ....was about the lives of the people....not all the questions in life....but the remembering certainly...and then the letting go....and moving on... That is what is important....and to see that God could speak to me through a show that I know the people behind it certainly didnt intend that....was awesome for me. The sermon at church Sunday both morning and night dealt with death and life....and by GUM if the Lost finale didnt do the same so beautifully putting a perfect cap on the truths I was receiving! If you are not a believer and wanna attack me....that's cool....I can't be shaken now...not anymore.... And if you are a believer or are just curious...I hope you got the same and if not well to slightly alter a great line by John Locke "I hope someday someone will do for you what was was done for me." :)
All this PLUS just seeing them all together and at peace like that....was just....breathtaking.....SO special for me. I still hold that BSG was the best show of all time....and its finale was more taut and plot specific...better made really....but Lost is easily second and I cant ever seeing any finale top the emotional impact it had on me ever..... Now, to remember...and to let go....and to move on... -
I like that everyone (I'm looking at 'real' Locke) got a good ending (for them), but I really wanted to know more of wtf was going on.Watching the pilot with the really mangled looking Pilot (of the plane) made me wonder what kind of monster did that, since Smokie didn't have claws.I guess, we should all be glad that the powers that be had some time to plan an end (unlike most shows that just stop (I'm looking at you Alf... so many questions unsolved)).
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Food drop? Who cares really? Where was Hanso? Didn't really matter. Where was the Degroots? Who cares really? The island is still there.
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I did cry a little though.
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May 25, 2010 1:21:11 AM CDT
I just hope Breaking Bad has a similar final season/ending.
by flip63hole
Bring on the ridiculous flash-purgatory device, show Walt and Jesse as dance instructors for the mentally handicapped. At the end it can turn out to be that it's purgatory, we'll be greeted with an emotional montage of memories over sappy strings. You'll cry, I'll cry. And it will be the biggest fucking joke on TV since Lost...
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Back in season one everyone thought the entire series was in Hurley's mind.
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good work. this is the kind of discourse I want to read. respect.
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I got to drink a good beer and rum while watching it, while I ate a good steak and grilled pinapple combo, while I got to smoke[monster] (if that is what really went on) some hydro while viewing.
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Not always thrilling television, but definitely an institution.
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Did she die before he got to the Church? I guess only people who were on the island got to go to the afterlife. Bur what about Danielle and Alex? They were on the island. What about Ben and his dad? They were on the island.
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I like your posts. The bottom line, as a man far wiser than myself said, is that Lost was a Ponzi scheme. It was a fun ride, we all worked hard on our own theories of what was what, why this happened etc. In the end, the big message was the people we like go to heaven and smile and hug each other. The island, the Dharma, the nuke, the well of Golden Showers etc. all was for basically nothing, it was pointless. Jack was able to come to peace with his Daddy issue in the sideways purgatory and everything was great. After 6 years of waiting to see what the island was, why it was there, etc. it becomes a small character piece. Spirituality works great as an end because you don't have to lend a reasonable explanation to the conclusion. After hearing from the producers for years that "No the island isn't purgatory" we find out at the end that it's not, but instead the sideways reality WAS purgatory. So it does become a purgatory study as people on this very website guessed from the pilot episode. Most of the people who have given the conclusion that this was an amazing event, are speaking from terms of their OWN emotional reaction. What will be interesting is a week or month from now when this emotional response fades away and rational critical thinking takes hold, how many of the Apologists will convert and finally admit, yeah we got took.
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Cheats, gratuitous cliffhangers, oversentimental tone here and there, wooden acting by some key actors (Jack & Sawyer are characters I could hardly believe). I mean, I kind of guessed the ending of this in the first 5 chapters of the 1st season, and I would bet - but there's no way to prove it - that Abrams changed the originally thought "they all died in the plane crash, and these are the tests to go to heaven" ending, once Rodrigo Garcia's "Passengers" came out.
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What seperates lost from any other show on tv? If you think that the best thing about lost is the characters and their individual arcs, motivations and resolutions, then how in any way does that make it different to Cheers, or Sex and the City? The mass appeal of Lost, and what makes it a genuinely original show (seemingly by accident), is in the way the show was formatted, marketed, and produced. Not because Jack got over his Daddy issues, or whether Hurley got back with Libby. Lost is the first and so far only show that is the show of the internet age. It's purposeful ambiguity, together with it's unprecented levels of confusing plot layering, meant that it was the perfect catalyst for the snowballing popular culture phenomenon it has become - again, via the internet. If it were not for the internet, Lost may not ever have even been made. It has taken on a life of it's own where the entire Lost inverse has become a sprawling mass of fan partipation. And yes, the reason for that was the mystery. But not a whodunnit mystery, or a conspiracy theory. No, the mystery was bigger than that. The mystery was what the show was about. Not so much a whodunnit as a hassomebodydonesomethingandifsowhatdidtheydoandwhy. The show WAS presented the the viewing public as if there was a grand design, and even though there really wasn't that in and of itself is not reason enough to hate on the show. After all, as one of seemingly millions of people who found the show the most captivating fiction since I was five, a disappointing ending is not reason enough to deny it the rightful honor of television greatness. No, what was so disappointing about the finale was not that no questions were answered. Nor was it that questions were answered. Nor was it because what mysteries were resolved were unsatisfying. It was because the people writing the show seemed to have missed what was unique about it, which is a strange thing to write seeing as they wrote it. But it does smack of George Lucas and his prequels. Lucas seemingly had not grasped what made his story so fun in the first place. This is what I mean about when a show takes on a life of it's own. The chaos, the budget constraints, the interference, the changes in cast, the ratings, the fans, the time limts etc etc, - all these things actually hepled make the original Star Wars trilogy an organic experience. It wasn't George's genius at all, it was just a beautiful mess. Seemingly the same is true of Lost. The only thing that couldn't be dictated by the format, the constraintsm the nvironment - the end reveal - showed that either the writers didn't know what made their show special, or they did know but they didn't like it. Most of us so called haters are in fact just people who probably had higher hopes for the show because we has seen how high it could soar. I would have been fine with everything being answered, or nothing at all, so long as the answering or otherwise of the mysteries was central, deliberate. The characters are not what was special about Lost, at least not in my, or the millions of other siappointed fans' eyes. If it were so, then there would be 2000 post talkback about Sex and the City or House (now there is an interesting character). Don't get me wrong, some of the characters are epic, but so too are thousands of tv characters throughout the ages. What made Lost special was the intricacy of the plot. Literally hundreds of times denser and more challenging (made up) than anything before it. The long form tv format allowed it an unrivalled scope, and that together with the change in the way people interact with media over the last 10-15 years created an almost perfect storm of detail, mystery and theorising. That's why it became a phenomenon, not because Sawyer loves Juliette, or because Hurley is a good guy. As for the science versus faith theme that permeated the show, it was a genuinely thought provoking and gripping take on an age old struggle.But my heart sank when it became clear that the journey was one taken by a man of science - eventually to a position of faith. The reason people don't like the afterlife ending isn't because we don't get it. It's not because we think it was caused by jughead. It's because it is an answer to a mystery that was only put in place 16 episodes ago. I would also go so far as to say that ending, with the afterlife, the church, and the triumph of faith, was borderline offensive. Not just because I know it definitely isn't true, but also because it is promoting a dangerous, backward way of thinking. The real world is far more strange, more wonderful, more transcendent than a pokey,self centered afterlife fantasy. Lost is still probably the greatest tv show ever, and most of the finale was executed in such a way as to make the viewer giddy with excitement. But what a startling revelation, that Lost had all along been the show that was writing itself. That was when it was at it's best. Not the fucking bullshit in the church,
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So I can understand some critics coming to this conclusion as they are doing in the papers and on some websites.
This was the most popular theory during season one and maybe the writers couldn't come up with anything better so went with it!
If they all died and the Island, the flashbacks, flashforwards, flashsideways, off-Island trips and time travel were simply a way for all the characters to come to terms with their lives, find closure and move on all of the crazy unanswered stuff doesn't need an explanation because I'd imagine purgatory to be quite surreal....just like The Island.
It's funny though that the people who 'assume' the Island experience was real and only the final Flashsideways was purgatory are now writing paragraphs of sci-fi meets fantasy babble to try and justify their theories.
Until the people who made the show say what the ending is (and they've said they won't do that) all discussions about the end are theories, so stating them as fact is silly really.
One final which kinda backs up the 'dead from the beginning' theory. If the man in black had destroyed the Island he'd have destroyed purgatory which I could imagine would be catastrophic to all of mankind. This explains a lot really. -
I like it more than the ending of the Prisoner, even if they both come with similar problems. I still regard the Prisoner as a great show, and the remake that actually came with answers was nowhere near as satisfying. The answers to Lost should have come during the season if they were going to come at all. At some point it became obvious they wouldn't answer everything, so I find that I have to take the finale as an engaging episode rather than a final puzzle piece. I'm fine with things ending open to interpretation. The lack of answers is mostly a problem of the show runners running their mouths off for years. If you don't make the promises and the cocky remarks for years, then you don't take such a backlash from people who simply showed up expecting what they were promised. The backlash is most certainly deserved, even if the quality of the finale, the last season, and the series as a whole are all subjective. If a person promises you a hundred dollars, lends you a great DVD and then says that act was just as good as the money, it doesn't mean the movie sucks. It just means that initial promise was bullshit.
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"Rodrigo Garcia's "Passengers" came out."
I agree with you 100%. They will never admit this however.
red78, well put. I too felt a little disappointed that instead of actually trying to solve at least some of the issues in a scientific way, we instead get it's all about heaven and god. And you know what, it's new politically correct god. The church has Ying Yang Symbols, Buddha symbols, crosses you name it. In the lost reality there isn't even a definative religion, they wouldn't even make a stand aon that. All religions are correct, all faith is fine and everyone makes it to heaven. Rubbish.
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Why was Penny at the church? She was never on the island. Dead from the beginning means she never existed.
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I watched the finale last night and I have to say it did the job for me. It was a satisfying conclusion to an epic story of life, love and loss. I really enjoyed it and even shed a tear at the end.
The 16 episodes that preceded it, however, were predominantly dull and uneventful. Characters sitting around in the jungle waiting for something to happen (and nothing ever did), walking from one location to another for no real reason, whispering in ears, and promising answers that never came.
I guess we'll just have to all come to our own conclusions and meanings about what was really going on and what the Island really was. There were suggestions and I have my own ideas, as I'm sure others do too, and thematically I suppose that's an appropriate resolution that reflects perspectives towards life in general.
They packed a lot in to that entertaining 2 hour finale. It was the 16 hours of nothing before it that were the disappointment. -
My theory isn't fool proof but there's a lot less mysteries and questions with it and as they've not catagorically said what the 'true' ending is (and never will imo) then my theory is just as valid as anyone elses really!
After all Jack didn't know he had a sister plus she was on the plane so maybe Penny was or maybe she died elsewhere and met up with him in Purgatory? Maybe! -
If they died from the beginning how anyone bother to know anyone when none of them knew each other from the beginning. No matter the spin, it's makes what's bad to worse.
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That would be poo as I'd like to meet other people. So if you can 'theoretically ofc' meet 'other' people in Heaven why not in Purgatory? It's not that hard a leap and certainly less mad than the island was real but one of the many many flash back forward sideways things was not.
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I'd imagine it would be quite difficult to come to terms with your life if you 'know' for a fact you are dead. That's a journey you need to make, on every journey you meet strangers.
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I don't watch a whole of series because I have seen almost everything already. To be given another cake with a different icing is still cake. But with Lost I was captivated.
I was enjoying the cake, eating the cake and there were no crumbs.
To end it like this for me means that I have to go to the hospital to get my stomach pumped. Of course that is a metaphor, but well in the end that is just that: A Metaphor. For life, for death and so on.
Having said that I must say that it has been a long time since I was so utterly disappointed by something. My HD crashed a couple of weeks ago and my world ended. I didn't back up and so on. Why am I telling you people this?
Well I feel the same, a feeling that you can't change. I am not getting the data back and I am not going to get a different ending. Sure some people will be enticed to make their own endings with cats and other things, but hey it will never change that feeling.
I honestly thought the different ending that were going to be showed were real. Of course being on Kimmel already meant spider sense, but still.
But when I say those endings, that really busted me up. I do not understand why they would kick you in the face shouting Dharma is not real! Nothing is real.
You wake up on the Intensive care and they show up with the Kimmel endings and you hear a flat-line tone.
Of course this is dramatic and I will live, but omg when the show went to black my mind when blank. Was there going to be a scene were Richard comes back and say: Oh wait that reminds me: Dharma was an institute that bla bla bla.
But now. The screen went bright white, they went to heaven and we were stuck in purgatory.
Ah well I learned my lesson, I almost always buy my DVD's and Blu-rays, but there are not getting my money for the extra's disc for season 6 that really really explains everything and is just a picture of a cock for 60 minutes and laughing in the background.
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The sideways universe revelation was the biggest cop-out ever. Even Russell T Davies would have been embarrassed.
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That they will absolutely try one more short con on the rubes. Look for a regular Season 6 box set, but also a super deluxe one, for who knows how much money, that will answer all YOUR questions!!!! it will be avaiable at Target in December for the Christmas season of course. I really hope none of you fall for this, but sadly I know thousands will...
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Why would you form bonds with people you don't even know. None of these people knew each other. So if they died from the beginning, why would there be a false bonding formed whether in the mind or in heaven when these people knew nothing of each other in the first place. Why would they all meet at the church in the end? Why not the officer that arrested Kate? Why not Mr. Arntz? Why not Ana Lucia? Why not the pilot? Why not the two thieves Paloa and Nikki. (pardon I know I have some of these names wrong) that were buried alive? Why not Russo?
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the water that healed sayid was surely similar to that and the centre of the island ?? and that water was clear, and if jack had survived should he not have been similar to desmond after surviving another electromagnetic "incident" !?
I thought Jack death was brutal in the sense he was alone and the laugh was that really happiness .......... or was it like a what was it all for as the plane that was overhead was actually not the one with kate, sawyer and clare on, BUT another plane about to crash because of the lastest incident, as by the time kates plane was up they would be well gone, what do you think of that hypothesis? -
...Saying that we should just accept that LOST was anbout characters and that all the plot-related stuff wasn't that important --
THAT'S HOW THEY PUSHED THE SHOW - AS THE WEIRD SF SHOW THAT HAD SMOKE MONSTERS, POLAR BEARS IN A JUNGLE AND TIME TRAVEL!!
If the story of the character was the most important thing on LOST, then why set it in an SF setting? If the SF elements aren't important, then why are they there? Surely they just distract from what you drippy misty-eyed fools consider to be the qwhole point of LOST: the fucking infuriating love triangle between Jack, Kate and Sawyer??
And if the SF elements ARE important (as the writers and showrunners CLEARLY think they were - it's the SF elements that the promos and ads run with - then WHY did they NOT give us a resolution to them??
That story about JJ not opening a magic set he bought as a kid - supposedly because "the anticipation is so much more exciting than what is in the box" (give me a fucking break, you cliche-spewing piece of shit) - makes all the sense in the world. You know why he thinks the box is better than the contents? Because he has no idea how to make the contents worth opening the box for, and he's proved this time and time again: the Rambaldi stuff in ALIAS, the Rabbit's Foot in M:I3, the red matter in STAR TREK... He's too fucking lazy a writer to even figure out what the MacGuffin is. And compare him to Lucas all you want - but at least, after having an entire movie of Indiana Jones chase after the fucking Lost Ark, we got to see WHAT THE FUCKING ARK DOES.
This ending sucked ass. ASHES TO ASHES showed usd EXACTLY how to end a series - it explained ALL the SF/fantasy trappings, AND it gave us emotional closure of the characters and their stories. See, JJ, it can be done. Just not by you, Darlton, or any of the LOST writers. Because you all suck. -
Actually, I bet RTD is kicking himself for not throwing that idea into THE END OF TIME 1 and 2... :D
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Most of the real sci-fi geeks wanted an explanation of the island, and were disappointed to learn that they would get hardly any. Instead what they got was a story about the characters. Now if you haven't watched the show for awhile and came back for the finale just to get an explanation, to fuckin bad. And if you were really disappointed because they went for a more spiritual ending instead of a cut and dry conclusion, ha! That really wasn't the point of the show anymore. 3 decades ago we had The Force, and now we're stuck with Midichlorians. The Ark in Raiders of the Lost Ark was only a MacGuffin because the characters were so cool, while the Crystal Skull was used to hide the horrible story and characters. It's a good thing we have show like Lost to stick to old school storytelling and fuck the technical questions.
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May 25, 2010 4:00:20 AM CDT
If the island was purgatory and they all died in the crash
by wookie_weed
Then how the fuck did Shannon and Libby get murdered? Fuckwits. They DID survive the crash, the island events were real. Jesus H Christ, they spelt it out for you via Christian at the end -- it was all REAL, it did happen. So give it a fucking break and watch the finale again for fuck's sake until you get it.
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The whole time travel, island disappearing, purgatory, and MIB-Jacob subplot (or just plot in general since it took over everything and made anything else meaningless) needs to be taken out.
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However people looking for a complete answer to everything should forget it. Clearly the writers/producers just made it all up as they went along without a real idea of where it was all going, this is very true of the first 2 seasons. The thing is, Lost flatters by presenting mysteries which appear to make it complex and I guess that was the point in some ways. There are no complete answers the produces/writers sure as hell don't have them...
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... you are one of the anal retentive internet geeks who simply has to have everything spelled out and explained in a scientific manner.
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May 25, 2010 4:18:41 AM CDT
Both stories seem to be part of their limbo, part of their purga
by madmarek
says Chris Seay, author of "The Gospel According to 'Lost. regarding the last episode.
So the theory they all died on the plane is a valid theory, just like all the others are as there is no definitive answer.
I've decided to go for the 'It's All Purgatory' idea as (for me) it settles most of the mysteries and in the end I'm glad the characters found peace and moved on. I'll miss them and the insane Island but maybe I'll experience it myself one day, see you all on the Island! -
Was it explicitly mentioned that Losties and their friends got the "afterlife" resolution BECAUSE of the Island? I mean, did Island had some part to play in the fact that they got the flash sideways?
Reason I ask is because I missed some of it [phone call] and after letting it sink in, I realized how I rate Lost depends on this answer. Why? Because I always felt Island as a key character, like Losties. And if Island was nothing more than a McGuffin to get all those folks together, I'd say BULLSHIT.
I like to believe it was Island's specialness that gave them privilege of that closure in afterlife. I can still believe it, but if it wasn't explicitly mentioned, then it means writers didn't think it that way and is just a case of me reading too much into nothing.
Thank you. -
I saw the writers some time ago interviewed saying that all these plot threads weren't being made up on the fly & that it would all come together at the end. They lied. Bad boys.
Honestly, I could have written a better ending. I'm not just saying that as a gripe , I really could.
JJ abrahhams is a master of writing intrigue, he had me gripped for the entire run, but this final series was weak, & the finale a total cop out.
I was waiting for the alternate universe story to have some relevance to the plot, it never did. What a waste. The fact that it actually turned out to just be ghosts waiting to go to heaven was ridiculous.
There are too many unanswered questions to list here, that could have been resolved, they just either didn't bother or couldn't.
The inhabitants of the alternate universe should have become aware of their alter egos earlier in the series, the Whitmore son should have formulated a way ( using 'the numbers' as a calculation & his mothers spooky machine, maybe have the magic little boy as a channeler) to open a portal between the two worlds & foil smoke monster at the last minute. That at least would have created a bit of tension & drama & tied up all the loose ends.
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So yeah Hellking, and Wookie-Wing - it's ok you suggesting we are all mong heads simply because we don't come to the same conclusion you do doesn't mean you are right and everyone else is wrong.
If the author of an official Lost books thinks both are Purgatory then it's a valid theory. -
That wasn't bad at all. In fact, I am not sure that the series could have ended any other way.
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and I have to say, the show was great till this season...Then...the wrap up was utter shit, and the writers obviously had blown their wad. Hope they get their mojo back, seeing as how their going to be writing/producing 1/3 of what we get to see in the next couple years. Dreadful ending, the writers should be ashamed and give back some of the money, deplorable.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/lost-televisions-final-episodes-1981917.html
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the people who complain because they didn't answer every single question are just stupid why don't you try to think a little and you'll maybe find your answer, why is there a 4 toed statue OMG FOUR TOES ITS SOME KIND OF MAGIC IT ONLY HAS FOUR TOES!!!!!
it's well known the statue represent Taweret a bipedal HIPPOPOTAMUS (a very large herbivorous 4-toed chiefly aquatic artiodactyl mammal)
who built it ? some egyptians who ended up on the island
why ? why not, Eko wanted to build a church why couldn't they build something for their divinity, or maybe they just wanted a little help from their "Goddess of childbirth and fertility" to have some kids. -
Makes perfect sense, best way to wrap up the series and get complete closure and to me...exactly what the writers planned in the beginning. Jack walking around for a few minutes after the crash, then laying down to die in the bamboo field works perfectly. That is absolutely a valid way to interpret the entire series, and also very satisfying. I have no problem with it and wish they would have went this way. Of course that would mean that the writers would not have been able to relish in the attention they got for being so brilliant and mysterious, as everyone had it figured out from day one.
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...Jack crying "I wish I could quit you!" as Sawyer fucks him from behind, and Kate watches on, tears rolling down those perfect freckled cheeks.
**poom** -
May 25, 2010 4:50:53 AM CDT
Why wasn't Lapidus in the church or even fucking jacob for that
by alan_poon
Were the people who were there all important to Jack or each other?
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Battlestar Galactica blows this show out of the water, even with Starbuck being an angel or whatever.
This series made little sense at the end. The alternate timeline is a test to get into heaven? Wtf?! What a waste of viewing. And what's with including some people in this heaven and not Michael (he didn't kill anywhere near the # of people Sayid did!)? And Sayid is actually in love with Shannon more than Nadia whom we watched him fawn over? Gimme a break. And Jack and Kate are meant to be together because they look good together? Her and Sawyer over just like that? Even on this emotional level it is an abrupt ending. As for the scifi part of it, obviously these guys wrote themselves into a corner and shut down and went religious. Too many characters as well. Bernard and Rose served what purpose exactly? I figured maybe they'd become the caretakers (maybe one dies and somehow still 'lives' on the island and thus they are reunited). The island is not explained. Why did they speak Latin in the 'beginning'? So Jacob is really just a pointless figure then. What was with the polar bear? Smoke monster exists why? What was Desmond's deal? Where did his bodies properties come from and why was he like that? Why do the dead sometimes walk around on the island? Even Jack's death seemed pointless. Desmond could survive the weird energy so why not let him put the rock back and live and go back to Kate? Pointless self-sacrifice. I can understand minimal explanation, but just tossing everything out? It's an insult to people who wanted something intelligent, which the producers claim was what they were trying to create and not dumb things down. Apparently that was true until the finale. Why introduce and discuss scientific theory at all if it's all mystical and religious? This finale took a cheap route of making people 'feel' for the characters as they ascend into heaven, but did nothing to further the plot or answer anything. Spud's ending sounds better than what they gave us. Silly catering tripe. -
I don't think it was perfect, but nothing is. Loved LOST for 6 seasons, the finale only made me love it more. Really am sorry that a good amount of people are so disappointed. I think a lot of things are clear in The End, that others think are muddled. Don't think the debate over LOST will ever have a conclusion, which seems fitting. As a few have mentioned, I think part of LOST's success last night is the ridiculously impassioned discussions of it today. Good or bad, satisfied or not, it rocked millions of people's minds Sunday night, all of us. That's what art does, it provokes thought & emotion, it doesn't provide "answers" :)
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You know who else never provides answers?
Con men. They're usually too busy running off with the money to want to explain how they did it... -
Who really changed? Jack was still Jack. Sawyer softened a bit and Hugo did a bit evolving as well, but even on that front, nonsense. And why did they mess this up even? Because they just kept adding characters as if that would move things forward. Jack has a son, but doesn't really 'cause it's a test to get into heaven? Come on. And don't introduce supposed scifi elements if you're not going to actually do anything with them. Journey was not worth and I, like many I suspect, stuck around thinking there would some even half satisfactory ending with just a few answers, but nope. Nada.
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I suspect what the writers intended was closer to this:
http://tinyurl.com/2bru3yu -
BUT us discussing it negatively isn't really a testament to the show. If I knew nothing would be answered I would've stopped watching after season 2. It didn't rock my mind at all. I sat there thinking, 'okay, emotional stuff, let's get that out of the way, fine, fine, now they'll just give us a few answers, just a few.' Instead, nothing. NO ANSWERS except vague religious crap and heaven/purgatory as the island. Nah, these guys deserve to be criticized and talk about a hand-picked audience at Jimmy Kimmel. Even he was like, what just happened? Not cool. Not recommended for people who haven't seen it. Big waste of time and the rants are the only way to express DISAPPOINT. They didn't provide any thought provocation at all except a lot of expletives.
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ha! What about answers to these?
the numbers, Widmore's motivation, the rules, the cabin, how Hurley started seeing dead people, the "war" that we've been told has been coming for 3 years, the egyptian mythology, how the Island protector leaves the Island to recruit people, the time travel (as in why did it happen), Walt and his powers, taller Walt, Christian's off-Island appearances, why some people disappeared off Ajira 316, the sky turning purple, Ben's relationship to Jacob, *what* the Smoke monster was (they've been promising to answer that since the beginning), "you're not supposed to raise him Jack/Claire", Kate's weird phone call, why Ben killed Locke after saving his life, Eloise Hawking's knowledge, why the monster kills some, scans others and leaves others alone but most of all I'm glad they explained why all the characters seemed to be connected BEFORE they came to the Island. Jack and Claire, Sawyer and Locke, Jack's wife and Shannon's dad, Sayid and Kevin Inman. All those little coincidences that seemed to connect these random collection of strangers on a single flight to LA from Australia really paid off in that finale didn't they?
As for the light and the cave and the magic plug, well...I'm not too concerned they didn't explain that. But hey, at least they resolved the final season plot device in a way which was inconsistent with the shot of the Island underwater from the season opener! Great stuff. Throw some clips from old episodes, slow motion and heartfelt music and some people will fall for anything!
LOST was one of my favourite shows, this season was a massive failure. I am right in thinking that the sideways has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Island right? So what was the point? -
"Battlestar Galactica blows this show out of the water, even with Starbuck being an angel or whatever."
LMAO. There's making a valid objection, and then there's making yourself look ridiculous... -
You mean I look ridiculous in front of you?! How will I ever live?
BSG had a kickass fight at the end and they got to Earth. They answered some questions and went religious copout with one thing, Starbuck. I can live with that.
Lost answered nothing and spiraled into a gratuitous chick flick. So yeah pretty damn different burny. -
the most interesting thing on LOST was the Island itself. People who say it was a character driven show really need to watch Deadwood. Now THAT show had characters that drove the narrative. LOST was always plot driven, the characters just reacted to events outside of their control or were simply *told* what to do by someone else. Most motivations boiled down to fuzzy logic, like that of Ben, Jacob, Widmore, Hawking, which sometimes wasn't even explained at all. Dropped plotlines all over the place. Having them all meet up in heaven (or purgatory) doesn't take away from the fact that the reason people watched this programme was the Island. Thats why I watched it anyway.
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The characters on Lost didn't do a whole of developing and this show was completely gimmicks it turns out. Like empty calories. The journey aspect only works if you don't have tons of episodes that raise mysteries without much character development. The comfort people are feeling isn't because these characters evolved. It's because they became familiar like a nice warm blanket for some. Unfortunately, that blanket came with the small pox and decimated any semblance of a plot-driven show this travesty pretended to be.
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the only character who changed over time was Jack. In fact, Jacks's arc is pretty much the only good thing to come out of season 6. Also Kate became a little better over the course of the final season, as again, she had a proper motivation (to bring back Claire) and she suceeded. Everyone else stays the same and whole bunches of them have no motivation at all. What was Widmore's plan again? Or Smokie's plan? Too many characters, too many dropped plotlines and a tacked on spiritual ending doesn't change any of that. As season 6 was going on, I was kind of enjoying the sideways, knowing what we know now they are just a waste of time. Why bring back Mikhail, Keamy, Dogen(!) Dr Artz, it was all just misdirection to pad out 18 episodes. Bullshit.
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I already know you're not going to agree with the following, whether you find it intellectually honest or not we'll see. I think even the worst possible criticism of the show/finale is a testament to it as a great work of art. It provoked you, yes it was anger & disappointment, but it's still had a big effect on you. Also I believe art/film/tv/comics/painting etc always lead to amazing, thought provoking conversations on important shit/ideas/concepts like these here talkbacks. Even if you are of the opinion what you saw sucked/disappointed, etc. I know that's not going to be good enough for you, but that's how I interpret this. I am an artist, a painter, I think that greatly influences my perspective on this. Not to say I know anymore than anyone else about art or anything, I don't. Just explaining my perspective. Continue criticizing the show/finale all you want, that's your right man. As stated before, I am truly sorry everyone wasn't happy with the finale, not that that could've ever pleased everyone :p Cheers SPUD if you believe it was all a big con, I respectfully disagree
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May 25, 2010 6:24:27 AM CDT
Character Driven versus Island Driver, more on the Ponzi scheme
by dancingforever
Ultimately, arguing that the “character driven” finale is satisfying, is like saying that after you have been conned out of your time and money in a Ponzi scheme with a group of people, the relationships you made with other people getting conned made it all worthwhile. Even though we were all in it for a payoff for the multitude of mysteries presented to us, the way the show was marketed as a SciFi mystery, and the promise that no, this wasn’t purgatory it is something that will blow you away. After being denied all this and lied to, there are still some defending it based on the friends they made along the way. I understand it was a fun ride, we all had a good time, but let’s be honest with each other. It was a long con, nothing more, and to not admit that now is kind of silly. There were plenty of fun moments through the series, everyone liked coming up with their own theories, but it’s obvious we were all hoodwinked. Now is a time to remember the fun that was, and chuckle at the joke that was played on us. That being said, it saddens me greatly that there are still folks around who don’t get they were fooled by obvious sleight of hand. You can hear the writers…. “Look at Jack, look at the sad dog, forget about the island and the million questions everyone had…Listen to the powerful music and let’s all cry together…..It’s a character piece, it was never about the island…..keep drinking the kool aide…Oh by the way if you do want the answers, ALL the secrets..we will have a special DVD box set for you soon that will answer everything…keep drinking the kool aide.”
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Sure she was pretty, but we never got anywhere. Why bother lying, 'we have answers, we have it planned' if you didnt, fine, but why lie. and the giant sunk island red herring, why would they create a place with a sunk island in it if that was what brought them all together, just angered me, purposefully put in to get people talking and then just say, oh yeah the sunk island, umm means absolutely nothing and doesnt even fit the scenario.
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In 2006 Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, the executive producers who oversee Lost, said the survivors are not dead and trapped in some kind of purgatory.
Full story here:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2006-05-09-lost_x.htm
Nuff said really.
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...this show was never meant for you anyways. Sorry there was no long, scientific, rational and logical explanation for why those number kept repeating....or the Hurley Talking Bird from a couple seasons back.
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Need a check-up from the neck-up. 6 years of mystery followed by a cute dog, oooh look at the cute dog!
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brotha!
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@Dancing Forever
Yeah I know. I myself work in Europe in the entertainment sector. I know, sometimes sadly, how it works.
I also bought the Lord of the Rings Blu-ray editions. What a deception that turned out to be. My friends and me on a sofa behind a full hd projection looking at the horror unfolding. Always thought that product had some passion behind it, no dice :-)
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It was so obvious from episode one that they had all died in that stupid plain crash.
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Lost turns out to be a new age re-telling of the book Pilgrims progress. It Jacks journey to the Celestial City.
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'Lost' Creators Promise More Answers After The Finale - Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse will answer lingering questions through a DVD bonus feature.
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1639820/20100521/story.jhtml
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JJ Abrams was involved after all. Laughing at all the nonsense about this shows ending. You got what you deserve for being suckers.
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If you hated that finale, then you have no soul, no heart and have never felt the touch of a soft tanned woman. Seriously, if you wanted the final journey of these characters to be about who made the dharma drops, what constituted Smokey, polar bears, etc., then you really missed the point of the entire series. I'm definitely sad for the person who thinks like that.
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This finale was my 2nd disappointment this year, sure the first 2 hours was okay, but the whole Jack dying for the last half an hour dragged and diminished the show. BTW- my first big disappointment this year was the lazy writing and no-better-than-a-video-game-graphics of Avatar.
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Simply the best Series finale i've ever seen. Better than Battlestar Galactica, better than Ashes to Ashes.
It doesnt matter to me that all the questions werent answered, it was more important that the story brought closure and had emotional resonance. I cried when Clare gave birth,and her charlie and kate all had their "Moments".
Getting all the answers is not necessarily a good thing; look at the end of the US version of Life Mars, what an abortion of an ending that was. Very neat and tidy, all the questions were answered, BUT THEY WERE STUPID ANSWERS. The tag line of that show was "Am i dead? Dreaming? Or am i really back in time? (or something like that), and in the US finale, the answer turned out to be none of those 3 things, oh no. They were on a spaceship in the year 2035, heading to Mars in cryo tubes to hunt for Genes (i.e Gene Hunt). Not satisfying at all, the worst finale i've ever seen, because the writers were more concerned with tying up loose ends than writing a compelling story.
The lost finale was a compelling story, it made you want to watch more. You felt it building to its inevitable conclusion, and i was just swept away on a wave of pure television uber-joy. Lost is like a drug, like Heroin. Now we all have to go cold turkey, but instead of methadone to wean us off, what have we got instead? Glee? no fucking thank you. Fringe is a contender, but as much as i love that show, its no Lost. I dont think anything will measure up to Lost ever again.
Sob.
And all you lost haters....well, carry on hating, i dont care....because....YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN HERE
Peace Out -
No I did not expect them to answer every little question, but I can't jump on board with the whole "meeting in the afterlife" ending. It does not make sense. Sayid spends his final days trying to bring his wife back to life, yet in the end, it's Shannon he meets in purgatory? How long did they have to wait for Hurley and Ben to die, aren't they immortal now? Some of these guys could not stand each other while they were alive, why the hell would they want to spend eternity with each other? Sorry, but that was a weak ending.
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that is, we are all a part of a group of souls, tied together for eternity, and when here on earth we find ways of reconnecting, a lighting of a candle in the darkness so to speak, that lets each of us know who the other is. Almost like agreeing to be somewhere at a certain time in the future to meet up again. The scene in the church reminded me quite a bit of a Soul Group, that each of them was destined to find the others in their own time, and learn the lessons that life would teach them, and then when they passed on and went back to that place they had come from, they would wait patiently for the others to arrive. As someone said, the ending hurt my head but my heart loved it. If you have ever lost anyone in this life and wondered what it would be like to see them again, watch those last few minutes with that in mind. At that moment, I could not care less about the Island, Dharma, smoke monsters or mystical numbers. All I could think of was seeing someone I had lost again, and there is nothing in this life that compares to that.
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It's like a finger pointing toward the sky. Concentrate on the finger, and you miss all the heavenly glory.
Most of you need a good slap, just like Lee's student. -
I didn't mind the, they were all in heaven/purgatory, aspect of the sideways universe. In fact, the awakenings were nice gifts to the fans. However, the lack of answers for some of the most significant questions was irritating. I realized a while ago that the writers were making it up as they went along, but I figured they would be smart enough to find some cohesion in the chaos. Also, the good versus evil set up of this season seemed counter intuitive to previous seasons, which had always blurred the line between the "good guys" and the "bad guys." So, the finale was a mixed bag, but it was still a great ride getting there.
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People forget that good story telling leaves things to the imagination of the reader. If you got the answer to the burning questions.... What is the island really? What was Jacob? What was the light? Why did women fail to have babies there? What was Smokie/MIB/Unlocke? What was the donkey wheel? How could the island move? How could it move through time and space? What were the numbers?
If they answer these questions for you..most people would be pissed because the reality would never hold up to your own personal vision of what it SHOULD BE. It was always about the people, and I was happy to see them together at the end and happy. That is all that matters to me. We consider ourselves film geeks, and bitch whenever we are pandered to or the story plays out as weak. This ended just right and it is your jigsaw puzzle...you figure it out. -
It was still a fantastic ride that I will take again at least once. I guess as someone who grew up on Stephen King's work, I was extra prepared for an epic with a hasty, pulled-from-ass ending.
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May 25, 2010 8:13:26 AM CDT
People seem to think if you were dissapointed with the ending...
by madmarek
That you are either stupid, a geek with no girlfriends, or just plain weird!
They said categorically Lost was not about dead people in purgatory back in 2006 and in the end, they were dead people in Purgatory. I don't know about you but if someone lies to me I don't give them a cuddle and then defend them with accusations of 'Virgin!' to anyone who questions their work.
I'm married with 2 kids and one crazy Dog. I liked the character's ending for Lost, there's no doubt about that, I like it that they found piece. The mysteries we were teased with for 6 years left totally unanswered and the ending open to interpretation I don't like and feel cheated. If I want just a character show with lots of romance and zero plot I'd watch 90210 or something.
The UK version of Ashes to Ashes proves you can have both a character ending AND answer the questions the show raised so I and many others have a right to feel cheated, while still enjoying the show, the characters and the way it ended for them.
See, you can try and box us all up as Lost haters and virgins but it simply isn't as easy or straightforward as you'd like it to be. -
Oh please. He walked through the entire series with a dumb look on his face. Yeah, there was some great acting here, but not from Fox.
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...I have a girlfriend and she sat there with me, for the entire 2.5 hours, repeating the phrase, "This is bullshit,"every 5 minutes for the entire episode... and, though I stuck it out until the end, I heartily agreed with her.
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"We all saw (most of them) die when they blew up the experiment on the Island in the past. Others died before this.
So are you saying the Flashsideways (as the execs called it weeks ago) was actually the ultimate Flashforward?
If so it doesn't explain how they lived on the Island after they died. We also know Hurley is now the protector of the Island with Ben advising so neither should be in Purgatory at all."
I think this is the main reason not to even argue with people. People want answers but are missing just the basics. You don't even know what questions to ask. How are you going to expect answers. They didn't die when jughead went off. The only thing that happened with jughead was another flash that moved them back onto the "current" timeline. Juliet died from her injuries from falling, not from the bomb.
If you paid attention to the finale, Hugo told Ben he made a good number two and Ben told him he made a great number one. Why don't people get that Hugo and Ben protected the island for a time and then died. They could done this task for 100 or 1000 years. Did the writers really need to explain that to you?
Christian went on to tell Jack that some of the people died before him (Boone, Shannon) and some long after him (Kate, Sawyer, Hurley).
The place they were in was not heaven. It was a waiting place but created based on the perceptions of their minds. In "reality" they could have been made of plasma congregating in a void on the other side of the universe. The only reason they are in a multi faith church is because they are all multicultural and perceiving it that way. Most funerals take place in a church or funeral home. The writers aren't pushing religion on you. Why are these people in the church and not Eko, Walt and Nadia? Listen to what Christian tells Jack. Everything happened no the island and it mattered. His greatest life experience was shared with these people. I would suggest that Eko's greatest experiences were with his brother off the island. Walt made it off the island as a young boy. He didn't get to go through what everyone else went through. Sayid was with Shannon because she was the woman who changed him on the island and the woman he loved on the island. In life we identify most with the people we have shared experience with. That's why many war veterans meet at shared memorials around the world. That's why 9-11 widows meet on the aniversary.
The reason these characters met up in the afterlife and had to let go makes perfect sense if you paid attention to the show.
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In some ways the Lost finale reminds me of the last Matrix movie. I remember when it first came out people who loved the series desperately tried to defend it. As time went on, and as they distanced themselves emotionally, they were finally able to admit it was terrible, but these things take time.
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..but I thought season 6 was really mediocre. The Temple storyline was flat out atrocious. Dogen and Dustin Powers where worse than Nikki and Paulo. I never really felt like Flocke was truly evil, hell he seemed like a good dude in Across the Sea. Maybe turning into smoke made him bad but am I supposed to just assume that? And looking back the sideways world was just a big red herring. The whole mirrors theme is bs, not a mirror universe at all. Looking back I really loved the show but the last season will always leave a bad taste in my mouth for what was not answered and for the bad pacing of the overall storyline.
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The boiled down review says If you are a Man of Science you hated it or felt let down but if you are a Man of Faith - you LOVED it! Which one are you?
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And here's why:
http://shar.es/mYVXK -
May 25, 2010 8:42:54 AM CDT
"The title refers to the characters' souls, not their location"
by biggoozoo
And there you have it. I understand completely why the episode has been so polarizing, but if that quote from USA Today is what the producers truly intended to convey in the finale, then I think they succeeded.
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I got that in the last second also. When the title card popped up, my mind said..."they are found"
Someone get me a tissue. -
Are there any writers working in America who don't have unresolved father issues?
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... and the more I dwell on it, the more satisfied I am with it... it was a perfect ending for the show... the island story was resolved with Jack passing on the protector role to Hurley... Hurley gave Ben a truly righteous position (and ultimately... a chance at redemption) as his very own "Richard"... You knew who Kate really loved... Desmond proved to be the key to destroying the MIB... Lapidus was alive... Richard's duty to Jacob was fulfilled, and he can age normally... Rose, Bernard and (sniff, sniff) Vincent were alive and well...
To me, the "alternate-verse" was all about emotional fulfillment... everyone got their very own happy ending...
With regards to everyone complaining about the finale giving no answers to the mysteries of the island... I would say that the show has given us enough clues about the island over the last 6 seasons to help us draw our own conclusions about the origins/mysteries/purpose of the island. I think the fact that many questions about the island remain unanswered is ultimately for the best... because it leaves room for debate amongst fans... and ultimately... show rewatchability.
This episode proves to me that no matter what answers the writers force fed us... the thing that was going to stay with us more than anything are the characters that populate this show... It was never about the island/Jacob/MIB/good vs. evil.... it was always about them and how they impact each other for better or worse.
Besides... that last scene in the bamboo field... with the music and the way it was shot, edited and acted by Matthew Fox... it was so haunting and moving all at the same time... this episode alone has renewed Jack's likability to me tenfold. -
How? Near death and we'd seen prior to this they needed help getting back up..he wakes up outside the cave? HOW? I mean, could they at least have answered that one Question?
No. No answers for you audience, just nice music and air-brushed memories. -
The MIB made for a good final villain of the piece but they really screwed up Charles Widmore. Ben killing him could have meant so much more if they'd just made Widmore an industrialist with a real plan to exploit the island's riches. Ultimately I think Across the Sea was successful in making it so we see the gods of the island Jacob/MIB as merely flawed men with earthly needs. MIB's ultimate goal was simply to go home and he didn't care any longer about what that cost might be. If you accept that the glowy cave is not just the heart of the island but the heart of man himself, that if that light had gone out completely and the island had sunk that life/death/time would cease to be and the flash sideways would have never ocurred, then Jack's final rejection of a "redo" or an "easy out" makes the outcome and the six years that lead to it all that much more important. So I refute the argument that the final ten minutes somehow negated the importance of what happened over the six season run.
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Why did the statue have 4 toes? What was Namaste? Why did some time shift and others didn't?
Who gives a fuck? Every little nitpicking question and hate at every little thing wasn't esplained (why did the others want Walt - answer - because Friendly likes little boys). The haters didn't get the final they wanted (like a girl whining that the barbie you gave them wasn't the Malibu Barbie so it sucks) instead of enjoying what we got. Same shit as with BSG - it's not what the writers want it's what I want -
Half of us loved it, half of us hated it...dont you all see....this is what the island wants. We're never going to get out of here.
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...and that's all that is important. But seriously, what this show was is pure "event" television - a show that is more about the journey than anything else. It was good fun and I don't mind about the unresolved questions - it keeps the show alive, because you can go back to the DVDs, rewatch and argue away forever. So the producers built-in a longevity to the series not seen before. Of course, cynics will cry "bullshit!" at everything, it's what they do, but the bottom line is about entertainment and Lost always kept me entertained, even in the duff episodes. It really was TV crack...
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You are one of those who are fed anything and say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Hollywood loves you.
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I had a feeling that the island and its unique properties were based in the scientific experiments of the Dharma Int. The suriviors were stranded there in the aftermath.
Smokeie, polar bears, the hatch, the numbers, the containment fence, the outposts.
In this environment the survivors would spit into 2 camps....
Jack's group- who wanted to leave this island.
John's group- that wanted to stay.
It would set up a "Lord of the Flies" like struggle to out do each other and win over people.
Kate and Sawyer would want to stay because they were wanted for crimes. Clair, Sayied and Charlie would want to leave for their own reasons.
somewhere science and technology were replaced by faith and magic and we go the story we have today. But that was my guess of the show early on and I am sure that everyone has an opinion for this. That is why things were not explained better in the finale, because it makes you come to your own concusions. Anything else would have been a let down.
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Was that the Island-Master can set the rules which means that "The Island" was really just a power source and it was Jacob who was fucking with everyone's heads all over the world. So basically, the answer to everything IS a wizard did it.
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That link pretty much said it all. My favorite part was: "Especially Boone. Dude, you were on the island for two weeks during which you bickered with your hot sister, got humiliated for consistently screwing up and bringing nothing to the table, were manipulated by a paraplegic and then crushed by a plane. These are the people you wanted to spend eternity with?"
If you bought that weak purgatory ending, then more power too you. I for one feel cheated.
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Why are the haters and trolls still bitching about this? The show is done. Nothing will change it. You made the choice to watch it, the creators owe you NOTHING artistically, and while it is your right to dislike the ending, it is no longer your right to annoy me with your incessant puling and whining. So shut the fuck up.
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You’re absolutely right. The finale was a fitting ending to a great show. Single people (or people who act like they are single or wish they were) are too cynical or were expecting the holy grail of TV bombshells. But in the end it’s just a TV show made by human beings, not god like beings with the answers to the universe. Was the 6th series flawed? Certainly! The plot about the poison pill. Claimed by darkness the horribly un-necessary flashes to old episodes to drill a point home e.g. the re-cap of Jacob touching the candidates, Locke, Kate and jack in the cave talking about the bones. Christ! Give the audience some credit!! but I didn’t see the flash sideways actually being the afterlife coming! Great misdirection there, I have to give the writers credit for that. Its also fits the rules the show kept shouting at us the previous year “what happened, happened” “you cant change the past” and “dead is dead”. And who cares if they showed a sunken island. If it was the afterlife they could show anything they wanted, the underwater island was part of the misdirection.
If real Locke had somehow come back for real, despite initial huge fan applause, it would suck story wise! Sorry all you people pissed off Locke actually did go out like a punk and was hoping for him to return. It wouldn’t have worked on any level. Fun for about 5 minutes maybe, but would destroy the continuity of the show. That type of cheap back-from-the-dead despite everything else we know, deserves to stay in soap opera land, or Heroes, or BSG.
I initially thought that I wouldn’t bother watching the series from the start again but knowing what I know now about how everything ended I think I can enjoy it one more time on a different level. The episode ‘Flashes before your eyes’ would make interesting viewing considering what we know about Mrs Hawkings (was she dead and knew it?) and Desmond (was he visiting her in her personnel afterlife disguised as the past?)
I just hope when the writer eventually start taking and answering questions they don’t go on like pricks about it.
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As a Man of Science, I was conned into watching a Show of Faith. Realize: Science consistently failed to understand faith in this show. Granted, there could still be an alien spaceship under all of that Egyptian sculpture! Have faith!
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Man, I'd watch a show with Emerson and Garcia traveling the world doing good deeds.
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As a Man of Science, I simply dismissed it and looked for a scientific explanation to the continued appearances of Christian DEAD BODY Shephard, the whispers, the Hurley Bird, etc. I should have realized that when the Dharma Initiative of SCIENCE failed to comprehend the island, so would I.
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Lighten up, it was a joke. After that statement I said seriously. Six seasons of Lost was not about Purgatory. Only the alternate timeline for THIS SEASON was a holding place. If you are into the journey of the characters then it's easy to accept the alt timeline. In the beginning we had the flashbacks, showing the past history of these characters. Later we got the so called flashforwards, which were really the three years later life story of the Losties who made it off the island vs the Losties who were stuck on the island living in the 70s. In the final version we get the story of their afterlife. Simple as that. We still got the complete story of their life on the island. All Lost did was tell you the complete story of these characters. I accept the alt timeline because you don't have to be religious or believe in heaven to accept it. All you have to believe is that nothing is truly destroyed but transformed into another form. People should be able to accept the sci-fi nature of that.
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What worries me about the ending to Lost is the message it sends out to other writers and producers who are already looking at ‘ways out’ of questions they have planned to entice viewers for their TV shows.
“How did they survive the atomic bomb?” Answer = Don’t Answer it, let the fans come up with reasons.
“Who was the woman who raised Jacob and MIB? How did she know what the light in the cave was and why didn’t she explain anything to her two ‘sons’?” Answer = Don’t Answer it, let the fans come up with reasons. Oh apart for the last question, that answer is easy…she didn’t answer anything because the audience was listening. :P
“How can we explain that they are dead in purgatory, when we’ve already made a statement that they are not dead and it’s not purgatory?” Answer = Don’t Answer it, let the fans come up with reasons.
“Is the Island real or was it all Purgatory? If not at what point did they die and why were some people missing at the end?” Answer – Ah we know this one, this is easy. Have Jack’s dead Dad explain it in a few sentences. Oh wait a minute; we’ve already seen Jack’s dead Dad on the Island several times and we never explained if this was Jack’s dead dad or MIB pretending to be Jack’s dead dad. So why should anyone believe the Island is real from Jack's Dead Dad's lips? Oh sod it let the fans come up with reasons!”
Repeat for 6 years of teasing mysteries. Now ofc producers are going to think as long as they give emotional closure to a show there’s no need for any big reveal, clever twist or pretty much anything in the way of an explanation.
Even better, whatever the fans come up with in the first season as the main theory...go with that!
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Sorry, but I've watched Lost (only) since season two and loved the ride. Then again, I didn't sit there and spend hours debating what the smoke monster could be made out of so that it physically made sense, or why the "mother" of jacob/smoke knows what she knows. So I don't feel let down or disappointed when an extremely dense show based around a handful of characters, their lives and emotions, ends without explaining why the plane was dropping food. I've always felt people got WAY to wrapped up in the tiny things and made more of them than was really there. And if all the whiners were as HUGE of fans of the show as they claim to be, they would have read the interview a few years back with the creators/writers who said the set idea for the show was being hurt by the network wanting to drag the show out forever. That is why they sat down and decided to set an end date, because they had no choice but to keep writing pointless crap to drag the original story out to fulfill episode orders.
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I really love the show. I loved the ride. I love that the end alt-reality could either be a religious/quasi-religious/spiritual Purgatory type explanation, an alternate universe created by the H-bomb interacting with the weird electromagnetic glow of the island, or the VERY elaborate musing mind of Jack Shephard as he was dying and his hope for them meeting in the afterlife. I have my own theories, but that is kind of the beauty.Mostly though, I still love the emotional hits, the acting, just the moving moments, Jorge Garcia's expressions as Hugo when he realized what was really going down, and dozens of other moments. Those stick with me more than the problems or loose ends or the unsolved mysteries.I'll miss the characters, and nothing on TV right now except House comes close to being as emotionally moving and awe inspiring to me. I'll miss it.-Cheers
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House?
seriously? -
Just because you have a brain the size of a pea and do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the message of community and rescuing ones soul it really doesn't give you the right to ruin it for those who understood and appreciated the ending! There are some very valid criticisms in this talkback of many annoying Mysteries that were wrongly left hanging, but the overall message and purpose of these peoples journey were paid of properly by the conclusion. You are literally the definition of a bitter troll!
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who has never seen, and never wanted to see, this show?
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Someone please tell me what I am supposed to be watching now? The Shield, The Wire, Battlestar, Lost, 24, all gone. I don't watch reality TV (I'm not high and mighty, I used to, but after several years of the shows being the exact same thing I came to my senses). I have Chuck for another season, but that is hardly high drama. Someone give me a well acted, well written show, on TV or DVD to invest my time in! What is this "The Event" thing?
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Why in hell would you even be in a talkback about a show you don't care about. Troll Mark 2!
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May 25, 2010 10:06:57 AM CDT
I Love The Comments In here.. You can see the people that are LO
by deltonparker
I think it is hilarious that all the foul-mouthed hard cores in here hated the ending and the sappy romantic types loved the ending.... The show did hit on a profound simple truth and irony.. Each of us in the end gets what we deserve... Kind of like when Doc Holliday died at the end of Tombstone and saw he wasn't wearing his boots and he said "huh.. That's Funny."
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Just trying to figure out what all the hubbub is about, bub. Nothing more.
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Is the UK version of Life on Mars followed by the 'follow-up' show Ashes to Ashes. Buy it, download it, steal it from the Queen...whatever!
I know I've gone on about this a lot in this TB but until you've watched these shows you can't really appreciate why some people are let down with the unanswered parts of Lost. -
It was not a atomic bomb it was a H bomb. One can assume that because it was so far under the ground when it exploded that most of it's energy was dispersed there and did not have as much killing power at the top. I mean they don't have to hold your hand the whole way do they? some of these questions left left unanswered can be answered you just have to think about them. The Show is about Faith and Science. So choose a side and either except the answers they gave no matter how vague they are, or don't. Like Jack and Locke.
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Not sure if you'd like it, but I liked Lost, 24 and The Shield and I started watching Justified. Not epic or awesome, but pretty cool show and just got renewed for another season..
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I'd argue that it has always been a blend of science & faith/mysticism. Quickly, the Island is a source of what I'll describe as an unknown, yet in the context of the show still a scientifically "tappable" or accessible form of energy. It is unidentifiable, kind of like alien technology in Independence Day or something. However, I'd argue it's always been about man trying to tap into it and use it in scientific manners (the plug in the cave being some ancient mankind's form of trying to dig in, tap into and use it for whatever purpose, and cap the energy once it either didn't go right or they realized there was something down there, like maybe Pandora's Box or whatever. I think the ending was not so much about "Faith" in some ways (although that was the focus over the science) so much as consequences. However, running alongside the faith & mysticism is the science (in some role or another) and the inexplicable nature of the Island and man's attempts to use it, the MIB's attempt to snuff it out to escape, and then the intentional open-ended nature of it leaving us to draw our own conclusions. Also, you could interpret the "magic" or fantastic elements as science we can't yet explain (not all that hard to believe, considering things like black matter and other unsolved naturally occurring phenomena and the nature of this peculiar Island) combined with how our brains process things like massive electromagnetic changes, some "glow" that may be related to the primordial soup and whatever sparked life/evolution.Just a thought. At some point I think they gave us all the science they were going to, but still left it open enough to sort of run with the quasi-scientific explanations based on the what we know of the Island and keep that in mind as we view what happens and how the characters react.-Cheers
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Breaking Bad, Mad Men and Dexter come to mind. True Blood, while not great, is a guilty pleasure of mine and of course season 2 of Eastbound and Down!!
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Yeah, I love House. He's a great character, and Hugh Laurie plays him wonderfully. You dislike House?-Cheers
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Next time I'm given a choice if I want to stand near an Atomic Bomb or a H bomb I know which one to choose! :P
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Isn't the Island just simply the gateway to the afterlife, and the plug is to keep all the bad stuff contained from pouring out. Kind of like your septic tank. All the nasty ass gas starts collecting in there and it will come out and explode if you don't contain it..
All the good stuff and light goes down to the bottom and gets re-used or joins with god or something...
The statue and all that other stuff is just leftover from the Eygptians who helped build the place because they had OCD about the afterlife, so they were allowed to build it.
Everything else gets created by the protector of the week aka. Rock Momma/Jacob/Jack/Hurley and while they are the protector they get to do whatever the hell they want (i.e. supernatural, rules, plane crashes) as long as the protect the joint.
Smoke Monster - Just Cerebus leftover from either the Eygptians or maybe Jacobs nightmares or something, who knows.
Anyways... I'm from Alabama, play the banjo and drink a lot of whiskey so I try to keep it simple and god fearing.
Y'all have a good day. -
Kenny and his assitant in Mexico, how can you lose.
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“How did they survive the atomic bomb?” How did they survive the original hatch explosion? Why couldn't Michael shoot himself? The answer is that the island wasn't ready for them to die. You probably want a scientific explanation of how and why. If you follow the scientific theory that every alternative does happen then they did die. If they had given you that, you probably wouldn't have liked. it. In end when Michael was willing to sacrifice himself, he was able to die. When Jack was willing to have faith, he was able to see his friend escape and die himself.
“Who was the woman who raised Jacob and MIB? How did she know what the light in the cave was and why didn’t she explain anything to her two ‘sons’?” I'm not sure if I care who a one shot character is. The island has had many people on it who come and go. Most people in life are ordinary people thrust into extraordinary situations. The fact that Hurley became a protector should be attest to that.
“How can we explain that they are dead in purgatory, when we’ve already made a statement that they are not dead and it’s not purgatory?” No they were not in Purgatory as cleary stated in the finale. The writers said the island would not be purgatory and it is not. Only in THIS season are they showing you the afterlife in the off island cut.
“Is the Island real or was it all Purgatory? No it is an island as cleary stated.
Flocke clearly stated to Jack that he was Jack's dad. It was clearly shown that he was the one taking the appearance of the dead on the island. Anyway, I'm done and it's time to move on to the next great show. -
I just re-watched the Juliet/Sawyer scene. When she says 'It worked' she's talking about the vending machine not the bomb! Totally missed that the first time. The reason it's "really, really important" is because it's the thing that will help them find each other in the waiting ground.
The more I think about and re-watch that finale the more I love it. -
that makes me dribble with laughter!
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So how did the island keep them alive exactly?
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Good catch, makes much more sense now.
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Oh so that's how they get out of the Purgatory lie, they call it something else! Genius!
No it's not Purgatory, it's a Waiting Room/Ground/Place! I'd have called it a Personal Afterlife Construct Assertion Environment...or something.
They survived the original hatch explosion because they were not in the hatch nor anywhere near it when it went off, they were on the other side of he Island if I remember correctly. Only Desmond was left behind yet they EXPLAINED why he survived, although they didn't say how he got out of the tonnes of rubble.
I'm not fussed if there's a scientific explanation or a faith based one or one based on myths/legends as long as there's some explanation that isn't thin, full of holes and open to interpataion.
As I said previously my Theory was the Island was Mount Olympus, MIB is Loki (Lock), and Jacob is Thor. Hardly a 'scientific theory,' but one which I thought fit.
It was the writers/Producers who introduced hard sci-fi elements into the show so don't blame people who want SOME sci-fi explanation as it was thrust in their faces!
In the end they opened so many doors, realized they couldn't answer just pointed and said, "LOOK!" then ran away. -
Well said.
Something to keep in mind...something that is based in science and that is beyond the understanding on man MIGHT be perceieved as magic. Give a wild west cowboy a cell phone and have him call him "Ma" in Boston. He would call it magic and shoot you. -
Legend of the Seeker. Wrapped things up beautifully. Cheesy as hell of course, very silly. But still well made. And unlike a certain other finale, not deeply pretentious.
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A sort of limbo where the unresolved issues can be worked out and you are reunited with the ones you love...or in this case; the people that you were your best with and you spent the most important part of your life with.
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No one wants to think. No one wants answers. No one wants meaning. They just want a good cry and some bogus promise of an afterlife.
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* The bomb never actually went off. The EM energy pouring out of the Swan site sent the Losties back to their correct timeline. Don't forget that when Jack and Sayid first explored the Swan station in season two, they found a passage that was filled with concrete (which is what Daniel suggested Eloise do with Jughead in season five). So its pretty clear (if you're paying attention) that the EM blast back in teh 70s was the incident Marvin Candle refers to in the Swan orientation video, which the Dharma people had to solve by pouring concrete over the leaking area, which also happened to contain the unexploded h-bomb.
* Concerning Helen: she had a fling with John, then broke up with him, then he disappeared, then she died. He wasn't nearly as important to Locke as she was to him. The Helen in the sideways universe was probably a figment of John's imagination. She's off in her own sideways universe reliving the best optimal version of her life. There is absolutely no reason she would show up at the church with the gang. She didn't know any of them and didn't share a single experience with them. -
If I was in the old west and you gave me a cell phone and my mom was on the other end. I would ask "Huh, Crazy.. Is This From God?"
You would then say. "No Pard, that is pure science right there."
Blam! Two Shots To The Chest, Two To The Computer. -
How else do you explain the Swan station being calm enough to allow DHARMA to pour concrete all over the area and make the button before everything in the world was sucked up by the electromagnetic leak? The bomb did it.
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Can somebody really explain to me what is wrong with the idea that ALL of it was in Jack's dying mind? No purgatory, no scenes in a church, no other characters called Locke, Kate or Vincent, etc. I can't say this any clearer and I can't see any flaws in this argument. Before offended fans launch into a defense of the show based on plot intricacies, take a sec and listen to what I'm saying. I'm not attacking the show, I loved it too, but I think based on the show's opening and closing shots, the writers (perhaps unintentionally) have left the show open to my interpretation.
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i dont think there's anything necessarily disproving your theory at all. i personally don't think it happened but that's certainly an interesting thought; i actually like that better than the one that they all died on the plane.
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He wasn't dressed the same at the end as he was in the pilot so if everything was just him dying, when did he change clothes and for that matter hair styles?
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but I also agree with everyone else. Interpretation it is then.
One thing to think about Carl's Hat.. Jack had no foreknowledge of what John Locke's wife Helen looked like and she was real.. If it was in his mind, how'd he know what she looked like? -
It's your jigsaw puzzle. I would like to think that because these were moving at the same time for the viewer that the whole sideways thing was not just in Jack's head.
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the relgious THINK they have an explaination already.
I am a wait and see type of guy. I don't need answers. -
I wear all kinds of crazy shit in my dreams and my hair is usually how I'm wearing it that day.. The only difference is in my mind I'm always banging eliza dushku, so she'd be in there naked someplace.
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i think that's the beauty of the show, nobody is wrong. we all take what we saw differently. could it ALL be in his head? sure, why not. although i couldn't disagree more, haha.
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There sin't one, and I agree with you. The problem is that a lot of people called this from day one and the two writers swore that no, it's not purgatory. It's somethign mind blowing that no one has thought of. Your explanation works perfectly and is what mosthave come to accept. If you look at all the situations a large metaphors you can explain the whole run with no problem, if you want to open up a little and say it was a shared death experience it works even better.
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It wasn't horrible but I just wished SCIFI shows would stop ending with a metaphysical note. The best ending I can think of is either Star Trek the Next Generation and Quantum Leap. However they both followed let's end it by going back to the beginning...Quantum Leap going to the miners though all the guys were from the pilot as well pilots, and TNG with Q..start with Q end with Q. Did they both have a dash of metaphysics? Sure...TNG wasn't as heavyhanded as Quantum Leap, but compared to Battlestar Galactica and Lost, it like a tiny hole compared to a galaxy crushing blackhole.
so for future scifi shows..when you say it's going to be intellectually stimulating, don't fail to deliver when you end it, and please please stop using the heavyhand of metaphysics or god as a device to wrap it up.
anyway I found the whole Alt-World pretty much pointless..did it pull heartstrings? sure..but I thought it was hookey wishywashy BS. -
Thinking is for the weak.
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I'm not talking about what he might have been wearing in the dream sequences, if they were dream sequences. I'm talking about what he was wearing lying on the ground in the pilot and at the end. Under the it was all a dream theory, those two parts were the reality and they don't match up.
If yall want some really crazy spec, how about Jack turned into a smokey at the end - he was after all at the light source which turned MiB into a smokey. I don't think that happened to him but it makes more sense than the it was all a dream theory. -
Sci-Fi Audiences and Religion don't mix.. They are often mutually exclusive.
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True... he didn't necessarily have to die when he closed his eyes... He could have been smokey and hung out with Hurley and Ben luring candidates in on more planes and subs since the flashsideways personal construct was timeless.
Jack could have been there another 1000 years for all we know.
I actually think Jack died when SnoopDogg Toked him on Kimmel 2 hours later. -
As there's no definitive explanation, it could be Jack's Death we are witnessing, all of them dead on the plane or the many other theories out there. By leaving it open, the writers can claim all the credit and deny any blame.
I would think however if people found out the show was definitely about Jack's dying moments they'd be like, "Errr...it took 120 episodes to show that?" -
Well, Breaking Bad of course. It's better than all those shows, except maybe the Wire. But it is at least on par with the Wire.
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May 25, 2010 11:18:03 AM CDT
Danger Dave - I'm seeing an SNL skit in the making.. Let's submi
by deltonparker
It would be like MacGruber, but it would be called the Time Travelling Cowboy.. He would be on his horse in the 1800s when we he suddenly was hit by Electromagnitism and is transported to the future.. In each episode someone trys to convince him he's in the future by showing him some new-fangled technology or science gizmo like cell phones, ipads, dvd players and the like and it always ends the same with the Cowboy shooting them like six times..
I think we may be onto something here...
Let's team up dave and become our own Darlton. -
It was a construction site...I'm not looking at the episode right this moment, but it wouldn't surprise me there was a concrete truck there to immediately dump concrete all over the whole once the shock of the original craziness died down. Otherwise, you're left with the question: why didn't everybody die when an H-Bomb blew up a few dozen feel below the ground?
I suppose the EM leak could have somehow effected the properties of the blast making it less destructive, but I prefer to stick with my simpler (ha!) explanation. -
What Dad says was what happen on the island was real, but how do you define real? If real in terms of maturing his soul, yes it was real. Real in terms of actually exisiting in terms of the same time and life cycle we are on, no it wasn't real. Real is very subjective.
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But I do like that you can have a different interpretation of the end and think that's the case. My father did too. But I think you're both wrong.
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yeah i get it, Hugh is a great character/creation but I cant help but see the show for what it really is, CSI-hospital! really not my cup of tea. not that the House character is in any way as lame as Ginger Horatio, but the actual show itself is very similar in tone, too similar for me, to say... rush home to watch oR set my recorder for , or bother to watch on dvd.
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When the creators of the show said it wasn't explained by purgatory, they weren't referring to how they would end the show. They were saying the ISLAND ITSELF wasn't purgatory.
So the people who all want to claim they "get the ending" only to have no idea what was clearly stated in an interview a while ago, have zero credibility in my mind. The island is not and never was purgatory. When people had that theory for "explaining" the island, the creators flat out said no. There is no lie. The writers were right and told the truth. People who stick to this don't get it. -
The problem with the idea of a concrete truck being there at the site and being able to dump concrete immediately is that the truck would be made of metal and would get sucked into the hole. During the finale, Radzinsky tried to get away in a car, but the car was pulled over. The reason no one died when the bomb went off? First, it was a smaller explosion due to Faraday's notes and Sayid's technical prowess. Secondly, its the same reason the LOSTies went forward in time- the combination of atomic energy plus the enormous and mysterious electromagnetic energy combined with produce an effect we can't possibly expect. That's why I believe the combined forces produced this: A) enough energy to send the LOSTies to their correct time and B) a temporary shutdown of the leaking electromagnetism, giving DHARMA enough time to assess the situation, decide to cover the entire site with concrete like at Chernobyl, and then build the Hatch with a button that alleviates the built up EM.
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From the ABC site, a ltter Lucas sent to Abrahms...
"‘Lost’ gets a letter from George Lucas
Congratulations on pulling off an amazing show. Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories — let’s call them homages — and you’ve got a series.
In six seasons, you’ve managed to span both time and space, and I don’t think I’m alone in saying that I never saw what was around the corner. Now that it’s all coming to an end, it’s impressive to see how much was planned out in advance and how neatly you’ve wrapped up everything. You’ve created something really special. I’m sad that the series is ending, but I look forward to seeing what you two are going to do next. Have you thought about doing an origin story for the island, maybe where it came from, what the island was like when it was younger and smaller?" -
They would have just kept sending construction guys in to pour the concrete and Radzinksy would have just kept moving their dead bodies out with tarps over em... Definitly feasible.
They'd just radio the sub and say.. Thansk for getting our women and children to saftey everything is fine here again.. just one note... SEND MORE CONSTRUCTION GUYS! -
May 25, 2010 11:30:36 AM CDT
okay, lets spool up the HURLEY/BEN LINUS Lost 2.0
by idrinkyourmilkshake
I'll fucking take that.damages, JUSTIFIED, BREAKING BAD and Mad Men are the only other things that dare to entertain on the boob tube. However, we need some more sci-fi/faith/good vs evil motif type show...so....hurley and ben me!
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some of them suffered pretty badly there. Pointlessly.
Many of them had already suffered violent deaths and to put them through hell again is just stupid.
It's almost BSG lvls of dragging characters through shit just to drag them through shit.
I would have prefered that the island cast be completly killed of and the MiB gloating about winning only to turn around and see a full cast from the sidesways verse there.
And have Locke put him down -
I'm in.. The show ends when hurley becomes the new cork.
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Jack crashed with short dark hair and was in a suit.
In the finally he clearly has longer hair with grey hairs. He's also in entirely different outfit.
So clearly it takes place some time beyond the original crash. And what so many others have also stated, Jack's father even metioned that it was all real. -
Yeah, what lets me get past that is probably the characterization of House. The Patient of the Week format doesn't do much for me (with rare exceptions), but the characters totally work for me, and the situations they put them in personally are compelling. However, the hospital aspect I don't get into.That said, the whole reason to watch is the compelling nature of the characters, and overriding everything else Hugh Laurie's depiction of House. I've got a TON of respect for his acting, and some of the situations they put him through with a nice slow-burn, the sarcasm, just enough humor, with the humanity peeking through, really works for me. And the season finale, which I won't ruin, just really puts him emotionally through the ringer and just felt quite real.Without that aspect, maybe it would be CSI-Hospital (I don't watch CSI, so I'll take your word for it). As it stands now, that show just really works for me on every level, just in how it's balanced and with the strong acting really driving the show above all else. That is why I watch House.In some ways, it's similar to Lost I suppose, in that I probably care more about the characters and the actors' portrayals than a lot of the rest of what's going on (within reason). Not that I don't want some sensible explanation, because I do, but with great performances and great human drama/tragedy/humor, I am probably more prone to overlook or fill in the blanks on things that might drive others batty, or simply focus on "wow, that was some great acting." To draw comparisons, I feel that way about Hugh Laurie as well as Michael Emerson, and Jorge Garcia, and I'd LOVE to see all of them in other roles.But Hugh Laurie, that guy is something special. I have nightmares about what House would have been like with Patrick Dempsey (who apparently almost got the role). [shudder]-Cheers
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...its debatable, but it makes sense. thank you for positing a hypothesis that is not based on arbitrary expectations and assumptions! Those are few and far between in here!!
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Are not complaining about insiginificant details. The Dharma drops did NOT need explaining. They could have simply been time displaced. What needed explaining included, for example, Walt. All the cryptic statements at the end of Season 2 and it's never been paid off? You don't introduce major mysteries and plot threads and leave them dangling. That is bad writing pure and simple.
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Are not complaining about insiginificant details. The Dharma drops did NOT need explaining. They could have simply been time displaced. What needed explaining included, for example, Walt. All the cryptic statements at the end of Season 2 and it's never been paid off? You don't introduce major mysteries and plot threads and leave them dangling. That is bad writing pure and simple.
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It was all kind of simple actually...
In the LOST universe, some people are special. Hurly and Miles can communicate with the dead, Desmond can withstand electromagnetic energy, etc. So Walt is one of these special people and he ends up on the island.
Now, on the island are these people we call The Others. They can have no children, and control their population instead by kidnapping non-Others and indoctrinating them into their clan (see: Alex, the two little kids with Cindy the insane stewardess, etc.) So, they kidnapped Walt.
Walt, it turned out, was a bit more than they could handle. After studying him a bit, then locking him up in Room 23, they realized his unique abilities (which were always kept a bit vague, but seem to involve being able to summon animals to him [all the dead birds banging into windows when he's around] and materializing in places where he isn't actually present). Maybe he could do other stuff as well. Whatever he could do, Ben and Juliet actually have a converstation about it in one of those nifty little mobisodes where they basically say, "I think he's a little out of our league." They decide to get rid of him, but Ben can't help but see an angle, and uses him as leverage to get Michael to bring Jack and Hurley and Kate and Sawyer to the pier (which was part of Ben's master-plan to get Jack to operate on his tumor).
Ben was happy to see Walt get the hell away from the island, but couldn't help go back to the well to leverage Michael into helping with the freighter ordeal.
What's not to understand? -
Omg, unintentionally funniest thing in a while.
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Here are the content-related answers you were inquiring about.http://www.aintitcool.com/talkback_display/45216#comment_3354023And something addressed to you.http://www.aintitcool.com/talkback_display/45216#comment_3354072Just in case you missed them and thought I was being disingenuous before.-Cheers
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WHAT?
So if a figment of your imagination or dying mind tells you the Island was real..then it's real?
Well blow me over with a ten foot nobbly black dildo! All those poor Schizophrenics who've been locked up for decades were right! -
None of you listened to a freakin thing I spent an hour saying last night!!! AAAAAHHHH!!!
ANYONE THAT BELIEVES THE SHOW IS ALL IN JACKS MIND, OR THAT THE ISLAND WASNT REAL, OR THAT THEY ALL DIED IN THE PLANE CRASH.... is wrong! Completely wrong and your opinions are NOT as valid as anyone elses. You aren't allowed to believe the world is flat, you aren't allowed to believe that 2+2=78 and just because you are choosing to ignore facts doesn't make you right. The world doesn't exist in a happy fuzzy place where everyone's opinions count and everyone has a valid view.
I will tear down your opinion point by point if I have to - anything to make sure that other people reading this don't get convinced of your 'opinions'. -
WOW! nice generalization there buddy. It's not because it was missing the details, but the execution of doing the end. I assume you're a SciFi fan, so I am wondering are you not tired of these SciFi shows ending with "God did it?" Especially when those shows said listen up kids, this actually gonna have science and be rational, well rational in the spectrum of the respective shows. We were looking for the intellect and instead they handed us a bowl of metaphysic crap. As i stated before, the Alt-Verse Purgatory thing was unneccessary. And because of that I kinda felt cheated..was it a twist sure..but lame...because the Simpsons did, I mean Jacob's Ladder did it. That said, I felt the finale did answer some of the questions but according to the rules of the show itself. Like why did Fake-Locke become human, because they, the Losties, uncorked his power. it made sense in the world of Lost. Does it make sense in the real real world, Nah, but that's the fun of fiction..anything can happen as long as it fits with the show, book, movie, whatever.
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The show makes no sense if they all died on the plane in the first episode of season one. If you choose to believe that 'theory', you are choosing to ignore the show itself and you might as well go watch cartoons, or write your own story. Because you clearly weren't watching Lost, or even thinking logically about what Lost COULD be. There are main characters that werent even in the show until later seasons. That right there is enough to throw the "they all died in the plane crash" opinion in the garbage.
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I try! From time to time =).
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...but I fully endorse the use of the words 'fuckface', 'asshat', and 'douche-nozzel' to describe anyone who insists on believing they were dead while on the island.
It was clear that everyone in the sideways universe had their own individual experiences, and upon being 'awakened' were profoundly effected by all the things that had ACTUALLY happened to them in the real world.
Christian just ties it all together in his final speech. Even the stuff like Eloise emploring Desmond not to take Daniel confirms that the sideways universe was a world where you can live indefinetly until you accept (remember) all the things you did in your life, then choose to move on.
That was made abundantly clear, and there wasn't a lot of room for interpretation!
Fucking asshats. -
Coz the world and other people don't obey his rules.
We can theorize however we want Dean, they left the show so open and left so many theories up to the viewer to interpret so blame them not other people. In fact if you go around the net and look at reviews, blogs, forums a HUGE amount of different opinions about what the actual 'real' ending was.
Hell at this point even the theory it was all the dog's dream is viable lol! Don't scream Dean! -
An anonymous source confirms that Mitch Albom was an uncredited writer on the finale.
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If God Created Science and Everything outside of Science is Metaphysical then the big cork in the center of the island didn't quite fit the bill because it was metaphysical then I think the case is closed.. Isn't it?
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May 25, 2010 12:24:25 PM CDT
Another reason the Island was real and they weren't all dead!
by deancubed
Some of them LEFT THE ISLAND during the show - others CAME TO THE ISLAND during the show. We saw the HISTORY OF THE ISLAND in many episodes that showed us the ISLAND EXISTING FOR PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T ON THE OCEANIC PLANE!!! Gaahhh... it's so frustrating trying to prove a point to people with facts when they are actively trying to ignore as many facts as they can so that they can be right.
How about all the people like Faraday and his mom that were TRYING TO FIND THE ISLAND from the U.S. and succeeded! They had coordinants of the island's ever-changing location!
The island was CLEARLY real and the events of season 1-5 ALL HAPPENED IN REALITY!!! They were NOT DEAD. -
Every since I heard it a week of two ago I just love the word "Asshats".. Oh and you are right of course.. The word describes them.
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Make a story about the Island when it was younger and smaller? Yeah, I think its obvious that was supposed to be a prequel joke.
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1) Jack's dad talking was the last thing the writers left us with. It left very little doubt in either what they wanted us to believe or what the last impression they wanted to give us was.2) We're talking about a show where Hurley can legitimately talk to dead people, who then become visible and turn you into the protector of an Island whose cave can only be found by the said protector and contains the heart of the world a/o essentially the soul of all humans. Or something.3) It's a show admittedly about faith. So yeah, there's a bit more relevance to what Jack's seeing as a coherent non-crazy person than a diagnosed schizophrenic.4) Religion. People have killed over less based on things they actually believe.5) Desmond saw the same reality Jack did. If Jack's imagining it, there's a lot of coincidences to explain.I think the Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge or Jacob's Ladder theories are interesting, but I don't believe that it is all made up in Jack's mind. That said, I'm not attacking your right to believe in said theories (which are interesting, and I think they kinda left it open for a variant of that kind of scenario, and on purpose), but getting all high-and-mighty about how Jack couldn't possibly be seeing something that was real in a show where they break all sorts of rules of physics and laws of time and space due to phenomena that we have only limited explanations of and little-to-no real science in the real world to back it up with. Well, it seems a bit much, you know?Anyway, given everything else the show's thrown at us, the alt-reality actually on some level being real or literal is not THAT much of a stretch within the show's structure & mythology.-Cheers
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Your going to give DeanCubed an anurism.
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You had me at "The show Makes no sense" - TY for finally agreeing with me.
Max - You lost me (excuse the pun) at "It was clear" as it clearly wasn't or you'd be surrounded by a mass of people agreeing with you when there's a huge portion who don't. Check out any Ashes to Ashes final episode forums and see if there's anything but a majority of praise and understanding about how the show ended. You'll then realize you are completely and utterly wrong. Resorting to name calling just shows you are frustrated because part of you knows we are right but you simply can't accept it now you've picked 'your side.' -
"The writers left so many theories up to the viewer to interpret so blame them not other people. In fact if you go around the net and look at reviews, blogs, forums a HUGE amount of different opinions about what the actual 'real' ending was."
The reason there are so many theories is because there is a lot of show to pay attention to and clearly lots of casual viewers did NOT pay attention. There were not many things left up to our imaginations. I clearly explained the answers to most of the shows mysteries earlier - all of those answers were presented with facts on the show itself. What wasn't presented directly can easily be logically deduced by anyone that thinks about things. You can speculate all you want, but if you ignore the show's own facts, then you are speculating about some other show you thought you watched. It probably was not called "Lost". It was called the "Marek's Beliefs" show and it only presents Marek's Beliefs to you because thats all you want to see. -
so purgatory is a pretty vaguely defined concept in Christian literature. Lost's version ultimately deals with people giving themselves challenges to overcome (patterns that we created or fed in our life that we need to let go of). And yes, if you were fooled by 'island mysteries' then you completely missed the point of the show, no matter how it was advertised. If you were one of the people who, during the run of the show, complained about character flashbacks and wanted more answers, then you missed the point of the show. And yeah, you were gotten good, because you still came back looking for answers, when the show was clearly about these people and their issues - their foibles and flaws, and their paths to redemption and to greatness.
Anyway, it's clear that 'live together or die alone' continues in the afterlife/sideways verse. For instance, Sayid: at first, I didn't buy that Shannon would 'wake him up' because I never bought their relationship when she was alive. Then I thought about it. Even in his self-constructed sideways-verse, Sayid couldn't forgive himself about his years as a torturer, didn't think he was worthy of Nadia, had to have her marry his brother, and rejected her even when she came on to him. His longing for her was based on guilt, not really on true love. In order to move on, he had to let go of all that. Being with Shannon allowed him a new start, to completely leave behind who he was and start over fresh. She was a way for him to break free of the pattern of violence and guilt. So it makes sense.
Everyone who's in that church needs to be there (and though some other characters might have still worked but they couldn't get the actors, there was no glaring omission). I think Michael was only trapped on the island in the same way that our main characters were in the sideways-verse - he had more things to work out. Then maybe, he'd get to the sideways-verse. And he'd be there with Walt. I can imagine other church groupings: Ben, Alexis, Danielle. The Widmores and Faraday. Faraday and Charlotte and Miles (and Lapidus). Miles and Chang. Eventually, even Keamy would have a group. But it's too bad we never saw Tom (Mr. Friendly) in the sideways-verse - that was one glaring omission, but the actor was doing Happy Town, or something. I think of what my personal church groupings would be. It's really a brilliant concept. And it's not about some feel-good 'all Losties go to heaven' concept. It's really about how we form intimate bonds with others and we help each other get through trials and turmoil, help drag each other down and lift each other up. Loved this show and will miss it. -
1.) makes sense
2.) confusing but I'm with ya
3.) Jack's not a schitzo - Check.
4.) Darn Those Crazy Muslims
5.) Amen - Nailed It.
I wanted to add one thing. - The only thing that would make sense is if the entire show from start to finish was in Jack's mind and the secret was finding out where in the show was actually his reality (which is complete crap).. Any other theory saying everything was in Jack's mind is pure asshattedness, as many events occured that Jack could not have known about.
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...we are witnessing and it's all in their minds or they are all in purgatory then anything which happened on/off the Island, through time, all the flashes, all the interactions with other people...didn't happen at all in the real world. It was all metaphysical which meant ANYTHING could and did happen.
So Yeah it's a perfectly reasonable theory as it explains absolutely everything in the show, something which the 'Island is real - but one flash sideways thing isn't' theory doesn't. -
now that's a finale!
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While i agree that some more answers would have been nice, overall I think it was great. It ended the way it began and all of the haters need to go out and meet a girl, live life a bit then watch it again. I'm sure your opinion will change. This show was about emotion just as much as science.
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...aka Madmarek (I'm not name-calling...he REALLY wears an ass for a hat!!)
Just because the trolls in the AICN talkbacks (who are a distinct brand of whiner from the people who have philosophical or artistic complaints about LOST) proclaim something doesn't make sense even though it patently does, does not make you right. You haven't actually made any practical points about anything to support your 'opinions', and both DeanCubed and I (and several other people) all independently came to the same conclusion about the finale, which is actually consistent with what was on the show.
All you've done is repeatedly tell us how pathetic we are, make faux-factual statements that contradict specific scenes and dialogue, and try to appear world-wise by repeatedly name-dropping about 'Ashes to Ashes' which may be a fine show for all I know, but is getting annoying by now being so closely associated with you.
Also, you wear an ass for a hat, which is just ridiculous!
Now refute something DeanCube or I have said using textual examples and not just with smarmy condescension. I'd love to debae the merits of various theories, but you're theories have all the validity of claiming (to borrow DeanCube's example) that the Earth is round. -
The first sentact in your "If they are all dead or if it's Jack's Death" post I just couldn't follow it.
Try bullet points like Dave I.. Easier to follow. -
May 25, 2010 12:39:48 PM CDT
Only people confused or misinformed are complaining about there
by deancubed
As I said before - there are lots of reasons to have criticisms about the show, but "not enough answers" is not a good reason. I'm sure many forums all over the place are full of people that think Jack died in season once, and that the show is basically Jacob's Ladder. An opinion becoming popular doesn't make it truth. I'm assuming you live in the U.S. (i dont) so you should know about this kind of thing - you have had military assigned to Iraq after all. Many people think it's because of the 9/11 attacks. Other people think the moon landing in the 60s was faked. The internet is a BIG PLACE that has a history of taking rediculous things and making them very popular. Things like cats playing the piano and nerds defending Britney Spears, and some dude singing about Chocolate Rain and shit. Point is - there are lots of people on the internet that will never understand Lost. That doesn't mean they haven't watched the show, it just means they don't understand it. And you're allowed to not understand it - just admit that and move on. But trying to convince people that you have a valid view when dozens of people have proved it wrong is just a waste of your time.
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Just like someone people misconstrue the ending, you're misconstruing my words. I wasn't saying, throw the metaphysics out with the baby and bath water. I am just sick and tired of SciFi shows that start off pretty good at being ambiguous to end it by saying it's all a work of God. I am sure you God-lovers love it but it does not a thing for me, especially for a show like Lost that said hey most of it will be based on science, on facts, not superstition. Now was Lost as heavyhanded with this God BS as say Battlestar Galactica, no, but the last 30 minutes was pretty heavy-handed..I would prefer ambiguity over "god did it" any day of the week, month, year, or century.
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Question: If I were an AssHat, whose ass would be my hat?
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...does the sideways universe being a type of purgatory negate everything that happened in the world? Purgatory comes after you've lived your life. Hence, life on the island, then you die, then purgatory, where we all remember our real lives and move onto Heaven (or whatever) together.
You're doing it again, skippy. trying to make logical conclusions based on false precepts. -
Just because Madmarek is an asshat, you don't need to bring the United States into this.
We signed off on the Iraq attacks because of 9/11, because like Jacob we have ver simple but firm rules. And the first one is.. If anyone attacks us, then we attack everyone. Best way to keep us from turning into one big ugly giant who swings his club every which way is to follow our rules. -
then the answer to everything is simple. It was the wizard fucking with them
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correction...
I'd love to debae the merits of various theories, but you're theories have all the validity of claiming (to borrow DeanCube's example) that the Earth is FLAT. -
Us God Lovers hated BSG.. We liked Lost :). Guess you God Haters didn't like either, too bad :(
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Take Chris Seay, author of "The Gospel According to 'Lost.'" words. If he takes the viewpoint they were all dead and both the Island and the Waiting room were Pugatory, then those calling people names simply because they don't agree with them are Assbaseballcaps. This guy writes official LOST books. Until you can get a official LOST source to agree with YOUR theory, I WIN LOL!!
"Both stories seem to be part of their limbo, part of their purgatory," said Chris Seay, author of "The Gospel According to 'Lost.'"
The finale, he said, "wasn't what I hoped." Pointing to the pledge from "Lost" producers that the island wasn't a purgatory for the victims of the Oceanic airliner crash, Seay suggested that the outcome of the series amounted to "sort of a misdirection."
He cited the finale's closing scenes in an L.A. church where many of the former castaways — all of them dead — convened, with Jack, apparently, the guest of honor.
With light flooding the sanctuary, it seemed a vision of a blissful afterlife, or the gateway leading there.
"It was the most compelling part of the show — people that you love being present together," Seay said. "They spoke about going to the place where you can be with the people that you love. This is how we speak of heaven, but in the most common understanding, it's a place where people that you love are reunited."
That's all well and good, he said with a laugh.
"But now, many of us are going to be having conversations about who died when, and what was the island. These were questions you would hope we would have gotten a little further down the road on."
Pwned really! -
".we are witnessing and it's all in their minds or they are all in purgatory then anything which happened on/off the Island, through time, all the flashes, all the interactions with other people...didn't happen at all in the real world. It was all metaphysical which meant ANYTHING could and did happen."
So now that an actual attempt at discussion has been made, I'm calming the hell down and addressing it :)
I can see where you are coming from now - if everything is 'not real' or in the dreams of the characters, then nothing the show presents can possibly disprove that point. Just like I can't prove my own life is real or if it's just an elaborate dream. It's a good philosophy discussion that has gone on for many many generations. Read up on the story of Plato and his Allegory of the Cave. It's cool stuff.
however, in order to get any enjoyment out of life or any TV show, you have to just assume that for the most part, everything that is presented to you matters, and is real unless we are told otherwise. I assure you the plot of Lost makes perfect sense even if you assume seasons 1-5 actually happened. -
"Sure, Jack was dead. But what about the other castaways? What was the state of their mortality, both on the island and in the so-called sideways universe that showed their parallel existence elsewhere, mostly in Los Angeles?
"Both stories seem to be part of their limbo, part of their purgatory," said Chris Seay, author of "The Gospel According to 'Lost.'"
The finale, he said, "wasn't what I hoped." Pointing to the pledge from "Lost" producers that the island wasn't a purgatory for the victims of the Oceanic airliner crash, Seay suggested that the outcome of the series amounted to "sort of a misdirection."
"But now, many of us are going to be having conversations about who died when, and what was the island. These were questions you would hope we would have gotten a little further down the road on." -
May 25, 2010 12:53:19 PM CDT
re:Only people confused or misinformed are complaining about the
by bikerzero
Well I referenced Jacob's Ladder only for the Alt-verse world because that WHAT IT WAS. The only reason for it was:
1) to pull your heartstrings
2) to put a nice metaphysics stamp on the whole affair
3)to be a lame attempt at being a twist.
They honestly could have done a better twist ending...this was just lame. Maybe some Computer Wizard (see I'm comboing science and superstition) can Wiz us up a Lost season 6(66) without the hookey inane alt-verse purgatory world. -
i do however do chuckle and laugh it all takes place in the city of angels...ha ha...which if you know, it's anything but that in the real world.
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When Jacob said it to Jack, was he simply saying that Jack was the new Protector? Or was he passing along powers or knowledge about the island? When Hurley became the protector, he certainly didn't seem like he had new knowledge - he was fretting over how he was gonna do the job. Did anyone get the sense that "Now you're like me" meant the person got something more than just a new job title?
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I needed a Translator for Madmarek.
I completely agree with you.. You must take what the writer's are saying at face value. The mysteries presented are still in a context and they never break from that context.
The arguement Madmarek is making could be applied to any T.V. show or any entertainment medium.. The theory that everything is an elaborate dream... No wonder he is referencing all those new age yahoo's like the guy who wrote "The Gospel According to Lost".
Anyways.. good conversation..
Madmarek - AssBaseBallCaps.. HA! I like that.
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If the author of an Official Lost book can be confused and think the Island was part of the Purgatory experience then this proved the producers and writers of the show really failed.
I was always taught in English Lit if the reader fails to understand the story that's the authors fault ad I agree with that statement. -
an official Lost source. It is an UNOFFICIAL book on philosophy and religion that uses Lost as an example to prove it's own point. There are similar books about The Simpsons and House and countless other shows (many of them FOX network shows coincidentally or not). The author of this book clearly wrote it before season 6 even aired, and well before the finale was even finished. The author is not saying that the island was Purgatory, what he is saying is that IF we choose to look at the island as Purgatory (in the context of the point he is making in the book) then we can use the show to explain the discussion on philosophy and faith that exists in his book. The book doesn't explain what Lost is - Lost is used to explain his book!
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Was it the knife wound from Smocke? Or "exposure" to the bad juju in the cave?
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As I need to sniff some glue and shoot up some vinegar.
I was always taught in English lit class if the reader fails to understand the story it's the authors fault.
I've made my point and quoted an official Lost source, over to you guys to do likewise. Trying to label him as a new age yahoo is quite funny lol. If he'd quoted your theory I bet he'd been 'right on the money!' -
See folks, a source helps a great deal, and right now madmarek has the most official source you can find out side the writers. So unless you can trump that, for now he is getting info from the most official source possible. You know it's comical, when everyone talked about how idiotic the final was if you accept that the final was real and writers blew it, the apologists went on and on about how it was purposefully left open ended and that's why they didn't explain 90% of the events on the island. When someone comes up with a perfectly plausible theory, aka Jack was dying and this was all in his mind, they go crazy screaming no, it can't be that. Sorry boys, the writers left it up to everyone's own interpretation, now you get to enjoy the consequences. If they would have definitively made a statement, there would be no debate, but nupe they left it up to each of us. In that respect, the Jack is dead theory explains EVERY plot hole, works perfectly in context with the opening scene and the last scene, it fits perfect. Every problem solved, every denial of logic explained, everything in the series in all six seasons suddenly makes sense. I prefer a shared death experience of all the people on the plane, but to each his own.
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I can see how that might be confusing. His opinion is that both the island and the season 6 sideways-verse are both journeys for the characters to find themselves and make peace with their lives. This is basically true, although I should clarify that my opinion OF HIS OPINION is that in the real world (of the show), the characters attempt to make peace with themselves as part of their individual character arcs. That is ultimately what the show is about - these characters having an arc (starting as one thing and growing into something else by the end) set against the backdrop of a mysterious island full of wonderous happenings. My point is that it actually happened. And that the sideways-verse was clearly meant to be a supernatural place that (while we can still say it 'existed' as much as the 'real' reality) was created by the souls of the dead to make peace with themselves before moving on to some kind of afterlife.
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Can't get more official than that. The show clearly states that everything that happened, happened. That people that died, really did die. That people in the sideways-verse were all dead, but that time doesn't mean anything there - many of the characters appeared in the sideways-verse well after the point in the Lost show timeline where the final episode takes place. Jack dies on the island from his wounds fighting MiB, and the last shot before he closes his eyes is the Ajira plane escaping the island with six people on board.
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I find it hilarious that all the questions weren't answered. Get used to it, kids - life doesn't give you all the answers. It leaves people free to debate all the meanings and workings of the island. I also find it hilarious that so many people (including the TV critic of The Times) still have trouble realising that they didn't all die in the crash.
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so the ajira plane lands... where? at some airport?... okay, then what? lapidus is arrested for going on a joyride? where are half the passengers? where did these other people come from, hey they're from oceanic 815! that means there may be other survivors!! where have you guys been for the last 3 years?! etc...
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Jacob telling Jack he was now like him, was the point when Jack was finally ready to realize he was actually dead. At that point, he started to understand that the island wasn't real in our sense of real, and began to understand the sideways flashes were a vision of the waiting room or whatever you want to call it. It's like you ask, what did Jack die from, the answer is awareness. He of course would have died by the power of the golden shower cave, but as he became more and more aware that he was actually dead, the fantasy of the island began to fade, and he came back to the "real" island moments after the actual crash happened. From the time the plane crashed until he laid down and died probably all happened in about a minute of our time. The "smoke monster" for example was a projection of the smoke from the plane, it was his way of dealing with threats from the real world he transposed into his fantasy before dying. That's why when he removed the plug from the island and the illusion of it being real started to fade, the smoke monster/mib lost all power. All the power the MIB had was the power his mind had given him.
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That quote is from him 'after' he's seen the final. And he's a published author who studies Lost quite extensively.
The point is if the meaning of Lost was so obvious and not open to interpretation then why is it Assbaseballcaps like me who think we've been swindled and published new age yahoo authors do as well.
It's easy to box us into a funny labels to try and demean any points we make which differ from yours but that does not make these valid points go away.
Saying we have to take what they say at face value and not assume it's all in the minds of dying people is all well and good but the writers need to earn that trust before the audience accept it.
By teasing us for so long and yet providing very little answers a perception that they are 'making it all up as they go along' can be felt.
By leaving the end so open, failing to answer so many mysteries and masking it all in emotion they did nothing to sway this perception and that is why I think they failed. -
its not hilarious. its because the writers have a history of contradicting themselves or either having characters knowingly lie to other characters or having the blind leading the blind!
problem is, they only had 8.5 eps worth of island stuff so they padded it with 8.5 eps of sideways and 1 ep of 'the 2000 year old man' = 18 eps of bollocks. -
...trumps a third party 'expert' opinion.
And in the final episode, Christian says: "Everything that happened, happened." How can you misinterpret that?? -
I'm done arguing, debating over this. the following is a non sequitur and because I LOVE THIS BAND:
http://lala.com/zrAoI
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Sorry, Dean's right..
It is pretty straight-foward and the writer's intent that "What Happened, Happened".
Because Chris Seay became confused with the 6th season because they ripped open his "Purgatory" ass-scab he has had for 5 years, doesn't make the writer's intent more confusing for the rest of us except for a few of you. Madmarek could be suffering from vinegar hallunications though. that is serious business. -
Unlike Marek - YOU have made NO ATTEMPT at providing a source for your opinions. Some of the stuff you are saying is COMPLETELY crap.
"You know it's comical, when everyone talked about how idiotic the final was if you accept that the final was real and writers blew it, the apologists went on and on about how it was purposefully left open ended and that's why they didn't explain 90% of the events on the island. " THIS right here is total bull. No one thinks the writers blew it except (coincidentally?) the people who have irrational theories that Jack was dead for the whole series. I'm assuming you consider me one of the 'apologists' (as if theres anything to be sorry for!) and accuse these 'apologists' of saying that the writers left everything open-ended and open for interpretation. And you say that's a bad thing and bad writing. THEN you say that BECAUSE THINGS ARE OPEN FOR INTERPRETATION (an opinion you earlier in the sentence dismissed as something only show-apologists believe) you can have whatever bullshit opinion you want and no one can prove you wrong. THEN you say that they didn't answer 90% of the show's mysteries. Well you can go screw yourself.
I'm not apologizing for anything. The show was NOT left open for interpretation! Last night I explained darn near EVERYTHING! Using the show itself (and some logic) as my only source! Not only did they ANSWER 90% (or more) of the questions in the show, they did it without having to cop-out by saying it was all a dream or they were all dead. YOU are the one saying that the cop-out idea of them all being dead is the only way to explain things. And you are WRONG.
"When someone comes up with a perfectly plausible theory, aka Jack was dying and this was all in his mind, they go crazy screaming no, it can't be that. Sorry boys, the writers left it up to everyone's own interpretation, now you get to enjoy the consequences. "
NO!!! IT CAN'T BE THAT!!! (lol) It's not a plausible theory because the show disproves it over and over again without even trying. No one involved in the show will agree with your opinion. And no one on the internet should either. -
According to the theory, the flash-sideways wasn't real, yet it happened. So if you take Christian's words at face value, that was real as well.
So are you saying that was real as well or that when he said everything that happened happened, he meant everything APART from that?
That's why that one statement to try and answer 6 years of mysteries can be misinterpreted. -
...your stance on the validity of your interpretation of the show is "There was this guy who wrote a book about LOST and he got confused so that means the show sucks. And also it means people who like the show are pathetic apologists and Ashes to Ashes is owns them all. Which all makes sense because this guy wrote a book, and he got confused. See?"
Fail. -
in the flash sideways.
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After the Ajira plane takes off from the island, we don't know what happens to it - we are lead to believe they survive and live out the rest of their lives. Kate told Jack she missed him so we can assume she lived a lot longer after she leaves the island. Hurley and Ben acknowledge that they had a good time together on the island after everyone leaves so we can assume they didn't die for a while either. But you don't need to know what happens after the finale - that's like wondering what happens to the Enterprise crew after Star Trek ends, or what happens to the Seinfeld cast after they serve their prison term. Sure we may one day find out, but in the context of the show, it's completely irrelevant.
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Your right - you must take Christian Shepards words at face value.. Remember Jack also asks him "Are they really here?". and he Christian says "Yes!"... So the sideways world is real.. It is a constructed reality in non-linear time where people come to when in time they die, but still real...
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...if the story fails to be understood clearly then the authors/producers have failed in some way.
My quote was to show it's not just casual internet surfers who had a problem with this but people who've made a living out of studying and writing about the show.
Ashes to Ashes does own Lost now, it's far superior mate, check it out!! -
Just the finale, which took the overall greatness of the show down by about three notches. The finale should have been the crowning achievement of a great show, where they pull out all the stops and blow everyone away. That did not happen.
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You are right, they can never make everyone happy especially AssBaseballCaps.
Ashes to Ashes is pretty cool, but I'm worried about it. -
the sideways-verse WAS as real as the 'real' universe, to the people in it. Some people believe Heaven is a real place, so theres no reason both realities can't be real. What I mean by saying the sideways-verse isn't 'real' is that it's not the same reality that we've been following for the run of the show. This was proven when Desmond didn't get to go there even though he unpopped the cork. He may have known about that existance but to him in that reality, it wasn't real so he couldn't go there. You have to die and cease to exist in one reality in order to exist in another, apparently.
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I am actually getting confused a bit now for real (note to self, cut down on the vinegar) - Delton says the waiting room was a Real thing, A constructed reality in non-linear time where people come to when in time when they die. But others are saying this was purgatory and NOT real and yet the Island was?
You guys all need to get together and decide what the ending 'actually' was, get back to me when you all agree ok! -
They should do a 'Fire Walk With Me' style movie to better explain the island and make up for the shit ending. And to make lots more money, of course.
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All the answers you want are even in this very Talkback! What are these "answers" you don't have? Ask some questions!!!! I'd be happy to explain it. Most likely, I already did last night in my earlier posts. You should check them out because they all make sense (assuming you are one of the majority of people that don't think it was all a dream - I can't awaken those people until they are ready to awaken themselves ;) )
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...you'd realize that the flash-sideways was real in that the characters were really experiencing those things. It just turned out that upon realizing their connections to each other, they further realized that the flash-sideways was not their 'real' life, but a purgatory-like state they shared until they could all find each other, at which point they all realized that even though they had experienced this new universe, it was a mental construct rather than the actual physical world (I'll let philosophers hammer out all the complexities of the origin of what is 'real'). Anyway, once they realized the sideways universe was a mental construct, you see them stop acting as if the rules of the 'real' world apply (Desmond running over Locke to help him awaken, Locke jumping out of his wheelchair immediately after getting major back surgery, etc.)
All of that is consistent with everything Christian said about everything that happened (in the real world) having really happened, and how 'this place' (the sideways universe) being a place the characters created to wait for and find each other before moving on. -
Madmarek - The only person I know about who referenced purgatory was your buddy Chris Seay, but who said purgatory or the flash sideways wasn't real.... It's all real buddy... Thats why we say "What happened happened.." Its all real and its all good..
CUT BACK ON THAT VINEGAR -
So I can find my friends when I die.
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I've always maintained that the sideways-verse was a "purgatory-like" reality in which the dead characters can find each other and make peace with themselves before moving on. It's as real as anything else, and like Jack told Desmond in the finale, everything that happens on the island matters. But if you die you end up in this other reality.
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What Maxwell Said Up Above There.. That is my understanding as well.
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a waiting room so i can hang out with you guys! how do we do that exactly?
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No guessing or theories, I want solid answers.What exactly is the island, and where did it come from?What exactly is the cork, and who built it?How exactly did it turn Jacob's brother into the smoke monster? What was the process? Don't say magic either, because that's not an answer.
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When I said "you" crazy, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about Jack or who ever was crazy to in their mind form relationships with people on the plane they never knew after they were dead.
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You'll note that those of us using seemingly contradictory explanations of what was 'real' are only differing semantically. We're all saying the same thing, we're just using different language to do so. And the fact that several people who've never met each other and have very different outlooks on how to explain things are all basically interpreting the show in the same way speaks volumes about how clear the finale actually was to those who were paying attention all six seasons.
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an asshat ;) I believe Malek and I are close to understanding each other. I hope Dancingforever learns to deal with his being wrong, but in the end - it looks like he's the only real closed-minded person that isn't trying to understand whats going on. So I think I'm done. Again - if you really think like the show didn't answer enough questions, I highly recommend scrolling up and seeing what you missed. I don't believe the show left much out. We didn't get to find out Jacob's brother's name. Maybe he never had one. That's about it.
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Here is a quote from an authorized source, but I will admit he didn't write any books on LOST
"There is something out there that in and of itself had to have created this and possibly other universes. And if you accept that "thing" as Descarte die, it would prove that reality can exist without a linear matter, energy or time constraint. This construct can be potentially be caused within the physical boundaries of this current universe, but more likely would not because the boundaries imposed by the physical laws of this particular universe." -
The same way Jacob's brother's body washed out of it downstream. There was obviously another exit...further downriver. Duh.
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...some will disagree, but I don't really think its relevant where the island came from, who built the cork. I've previously compared such explanations to Lucas using Midicholorians to explain the force, which was inane and caused great consternation to the fans who proclaimed: "You don't need to explain the Force!! It just is!!"
As for the smoke monster: this was also left only half-way (and even then, ambigiously) explained, so all you're left with are conjectures. In my case: I see the Monster as some malignant entity who was trapped inside the island. When Jacob threw his brother into the cave, the entity used his body as a vessel to escape, and took on his form and personality (the way Terry O'Quinn said he played Flocke as if part of the real Locke's personality was still inside the monster after it took his form).
That may not satisfy everyone, but its consistent with everything we see on the show, so it works for me. -
But this is just from one AssHat..
What is the Island and Where exactly did it come from? It is a doorway to the afterlife (both good and bad afterlife). It was built by the creator when the Earth was born.
What exactly is the cork and where did it come from? The cork was needed when the afterlife build-up started to get too much and started to squirte out like methane out of a gas leak. The Eygptian's built it as they were OCD about the afterlife.
How exactly did Jacob's brother turn into the smoke monster? Don't know not enough information, but I have a guess (but you said no guesses so I'll end here).
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Because there are no answers. For a show to pose clear, concise questions and mysteries for six years, then wrap up with vague nonsense answers like a magic pool and purgatory and heaven, is a copout for the writers and a slap in the face to all of the loyal viewers who were promised scientific answers. Faith is not science.
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That is just you interpretation of what everything was. It may be right, or it may be wrong, but the problem is that nothing was answered.
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This isn't a Jacob's Ladder situation. They're not dreaming. Even though we've used terms like 'wake up' the sideways verse was a "real" existence in that things happened, people had experiences and there were consequences. But unlike 'real' life, the upshot of all this is to remember your other life, that you can leave the construct behind and move on to the next level. Although one could arguably say that about this 'real' life, too. It's supposed to be ambiguous because life is. Ultimately, as one critic put it, Lost is a story about stories. Sometimes we tell ourselves stories about ourselves and experience them as if they were real, when in truth we made it all up. Think about it. Isn't this how most people interpet what happens in their lives?
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Your just like an older brother who says he is not going to fart on you when he sits on your head.. Then when he does he lets it rip...
Only an Asshat asks for honest quesitons then doesn't listen to the answers. -
That's what you really wanted? Do I have to say it again? "MIDICHOLORIANS!!"
There is no way in which any scientific explanation could have been in any way satisfying. Faith an Spirituality have been a part of this show since day one, and it shouldn't surprise anyone paying any kind of attention that they would play heavily in the endgame. -
No one was asking what the force was, because Star Wars never constantly raised the question. But in Lost, from the end of the very first episode, the question was "Guys, where are we?".
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May 25, 2010 1:59:17 PM CDT
SithMenace - There are Clues, but no answers your right.
by deltonparker
there was no sherlock holmes in the show to pull it all together, i'll admit this was dissappointing but part of the fun..
You are also right it is open to interpretation, that is also what makes it fun. -
While I was typing I noticed your post so here it goes:
What exactly is the island, and where did it come from? The island is an island that contains a magical life force that presumably has always existed on Earth. Without the light, a force of great destruction is free to roam the Earth, and someone (God? Aliens? Doesn't matter!) thought that was BAD THING so there has been a Protector of the light on the Island. This Island was probably the inspiration for the Atlantis legend, Pandora's Box, El Dorado, the Bermuda Triangle, and other weirdness over history.
Right here I'm going to pause and say that if you don't like that answer, and were hoping for something non-supernatural or non-magical, you aren't going to get it and that's not a bad thing. Magic and the supernatural have always existed in the Lost story, it's not a flaw. Phasers and Warp Drive have always existed in the Star Trek stories and no one really needs a scientific explanation for those either. Most TV shows use technojargon and magicbabble sentences like "the anomaly can be contained by a burst from the main deflector" or "a tachyon pulse did it" or "using the prophecy of the Shi'Ar, we have spoken the incantation to release the evil from within!". Lost is a sci-fi show too. Walt can summon things, Miles can hear the dead, Hurley can see the dead, the Protector of the island can make rules for the island that everyone has to follow, and he has the power to bring people to the island. Lots more examples. Sorry to disappoint you.
That said, within the context of the show most of this stuff has answers (and while I already answered a lot of it earlier in the talkback, i'll do it again here just for you)
What exactly is the cork, and who built it? ---- The ancient civilization that was on the island a while back and understood these magical mystical things better than our culture does, created it to contain the light and trap the darkness.
How exactly did it turn Jacob's brother into the smoke monster? What was the process? Don't say magic either, because that's not an answer. ---- Ok I won't say magic. When Jacob's brother was killed by Jacob and thrown into the cave of light, it released the darkness within the cave which either ripped the MiB's soul from his body or just possessed his dead body. Point is, Jacob's brother was dead from that point on, and the smoke monster's motivations have been guided by a combination of everyone he has possessed throughout history. -
But the fact of the matter is, the finale left you with opinions, not solid answers.
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It's people like you that make these discussions difficult. No matter how much evidence is presented to you, you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, you can never give on a single point, but then hilariously proclaim I'm closed minded. At first I saw this final as pure rubbish meant to trick the rubes into buying a DVD down the road, now I see it as possibly brilliant and totally misunderstood. Notice how I, like Jack, am developing. My point is this, give me a single explanation that wraps everything up and makes more sense than Jack living all of this out in his mind. Please realize that by doing so, you will have to explain what the island was, where the mother came from, how Jack got out of the cave, what actually killed him, how Ben mysteriously got out from under the tree, a H bomb going off, a vision of the island underwater for no reason, Syaid showing up with what's her name instead of his wife etc. I have to explain nothing because my theory makes perfect sense and everything in the show supports it. I eagerly await your response.
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because these questions were ALREADY ANSWERED earlier in the series. The only question we wanted to know about in the finale was "whats going to happen to these people?"
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Dean's right can't really apply a blueprinted answer without getting really deep into metaphysics, but his answers are pretty close mine and I agree with them.
It is kind of like archeology - Do we know that at Pompei, that Luigi the stonecutter was taking a crap when the volcano hit him, no but we do know that Luigi died as a result of a volcano.. The same can be applied to Lost. -
I already explained most of these questions as the FIRST THING I POSTED in this talkback yesterday. BUT i'll do it again all just for you.
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As they've never officially named him then I claim it. Jacob was Odin (or maybe Thor, I'll let him choose!) and the island is Mount Olympus.
Loki's mother is' Laufey' in the legends which means "leaf island." so that fits.
The two gods are all that is left after the gods abandoned Mount Olympus when mortals stopped believing in them. Over the millennia they've fought and occasionally encountered humans who have found the island by accident or otherwise.
If Loki escapes he will cause Ragnarok, the end of the world and the fall of the last of the gods.
That's my theory and I like it. I want to add it to the ever growing theories on this TalkBack please!!
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Cause I agree with Dean and Maxell, but much to lazy to go back and see what it was in earlier posts.
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I watched the final again last night, and I think the closing shot should have been our Oceanic 815 members returning to the island with their kids. They meet a still young Hurley and a young Ben and hug. The end.
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Sounds kind of rediculous already doesnt it?
Everything from seasons 1-5 happened EXACTLY as they were presented on television. just watch the dang DVDs. Questions were wrapped up for us, but some still lingered for us to wonder about in season 6. Season 6 happened exactly as it was presented too. There is the normal reality that we've been following the whole show, and there are flashes to a sideways reality that ended up being a pergatory-like reality that people go to when they die in order to reflect on their lives and make peace with themselves and each other before moving on.
Apparently the show didn't make some answers clear enough for you for that to make sense to you, so I will explain the specific questions you asked me to explain.
"you will have to explain what the island was, where the mother came from, how Jack got out of the cave, what actually killed him, how Ben mysteriously got out from under the tree, a H bomb going off, a vision of the island underwater for no reason, Syaid showing up with what's her name instead of his wife etc. " -
Interesting, but none of that stuff was real. I think the Greeks made all that stuff up trying to explain their environment back then.
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If the original plan, back before they filmed the pilot was to kill Jack in the pilot, what was the show to be about then? If it is now squarely about Jack's journey and the people who got him there, what WAS the show going to be about? Was one of the other characters supposed to take that journey, or is this just another example of people running the show saying there was a plan when there wasn't?
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And I like your take on what everything is, but the bottom line is we were never actually told. I know the supporters of the finale are going to see me as a troll and someone that needs everything spoonfed, but as an avid fan and supporter of the show for six years, I assure you that's just not the case.We were promised scientific answers to all of the questions that were being posed on the show, and we didn't get them, plain and simple. Instead of giving everyone what they promised, they took the easy way out and ensured that their show would be endlessly discussed. It's a slap in the face, as well as a half hearted attempt to make the show seem deeper than it actually is.I can't understand the people that are defending this, yeah, I understand everything that happened at the end, but the problem is that it had very little to do with the other five seasons. For a show that utilized flashback episodes so effectively, to not give us a final flashback to what it was all about was a kick in the balls. In fact all of season 6 was a kick in the balls. It was a magic pool. Unbelievable. Most of the fan theories I've read were way better than the bait and switch we were handed.
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I'm of the "what happened from 2004-2007 on the island really happened" camp. Ironically, Jimmy Kimmel explained it perfectly.
At the beginning of season 6 - when the plane hit turbulence and you thought they were going to crash, but then it calmed down and Rose said to Jack, "You can let go now" - was the beginning of Jack's "purgatory" experience - right after he died in the bamboo field. Every one of the castaways who died began "purgatory" on that plane regardless of when they died - Shannon and Boone early on, Charlie at the Looking Glass, Locke in the hotel room at Ben's hands, Sun and Jin and Sayid on the sub a few episodes ago.
As Christian said at the end, don't try to think of it in terms of 'Time and Now' - regardless of when they died, purgatory felt like a week in LA to them, culminating in the meeting at the church. That's what we saw.
When Kate said to Jack, "I've been waiting so long for you," she didn't mean she'd been waiting in purgatory - she meant her presumed long life after she flew away on Ajira 316 with Lapidus and Co. at the end of the episode. When she died, probably as an old woman 40 or so years from 2007, she, like every one else, began purgatory on Oceanic 815 with that blip of turbulence, and spent a week in LA running from the law, getting sprung by Desmond and Hurley and delivering Claire's baby at the concert - which was her "awakening" moment like all the others had.
So my question to the "They all died in the crash" crowd is, if the only "real" things we saw were at the beginning of the first episode ("Not a very strong drink" pre-crash stuff) and the end of Sunday's episode (Jack lies down in the bamboo forest and closes his eye, dying) ... Then why did Jack have different clothes on? And why did the shoe hanging in the tree look like it had been hanging there for, say, 3 years? -
Amen brother.
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Madmarek - your norse mythology theory is perfectly valid and feel free to use it - EXCEPT that Jacob and his family were on the island AFTER ancient Greece told stories about those gods. BUT time works weird on the island - so go for it :P
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"The only question we wanted to know about in the finale was "whats going to happen to these people?"No, that was half of the question. This show has always been about characters, absolutlely, but the show has always been about the central mythology as well. I feel like in the end they wanted to just focus on the characters and sidestep everything else.
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Jack was dying from the moment the plane hit the ground, in the some of a minute or two, the entire six seasons existed. Delton, think of the most iconic thing of lost, the eye right? It was Jack's mind's eye. The entire series was his own private morality play. He used the individuals on the flight, and others he imagined, to work out his own issues. That's why at the end his father appeared, who also was already dead. When he said what happened on the island was real, he was correct. A plane crashed, Jack died, but in those moments before his death, much like a dream, a thousand things played out until his soul was finally at peace. Notice int he finale how the more of the mystery they solve, the less powerful it becomes. Notice how when Jacob has him drink from the cup it's very ceremonial, notice how by the time it gets to Hurley, it's an old water bottle and common. The closer Jack got to dying, the more the power of his fantasy, and ultimately the island, faded.
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It was a pointless subplot that would have been jettisoned from the beginning if that's all they were going to do with it.
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Wait - another aside! SITH! I have very similar criticisms of the show and its plot development and pacing, so I'm sorry you weren't satisfied, but I don't think we were promised "scientific" answers. There really couldn't be unless the writers had the real scientific proof of real time travel and stuff. But we got answers to almost every question the show asked, other than what the Man In Black's name was. I have to acknowledge that the show is what was presented, whether i think they could have told a better story or not, I can still see that this was a good story anyway. If you feel differently I feel bad for ya but you're entitled to your opinion.
OK - answers for Dancing... -
in that the finale should have had a nonspiritual interpretation. The Finale was nowhere near the shitfest that BSG's finale was, but it shared the prayer circle mentality
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I have read your theory and it is very clear, however I must side with Dean. You must take a T.V. show at face value.. If your theory was true, then Jack should have been lieing in the same place, wearing the same cloths, with the same haircut when his eye closed.. Since he was wearing different cloths and the shoe aged 3 years and the fact that throughout the series the writers told us again and again "What happened happened", there intent was that Jack went on a "real" journey with these people and wound up dieing at the end... The only piece where he was already dead, was the sixth season in the sideways world.. Sorry Man, but it is pretty clear that is what they intended.
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The writers did not need real scientific proof of real time travel. The answers would obviously have to include science fiction elements, but should have been based in a scientific reality.
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Why do you have to know where the island came from in order for the purgatory-sideways universe to make sense?
The origins of the island and Mother and the cork are all tangential to the journey the characters take. If I'm lost in the woods and have memorable experiences there, then find an old Indian arrowhead on the ground, my experiences are not invalidated because the arrowhead didn't play an integral role in the reason I got lost in the woods. Sure, it would make an interesting story, but me being LOST and my subsequent experiences are the important thing.
Also, Jack died because he got stabbed in the fucking stomach with a knife and bled to death. That was pretty obvious, I thought. -
That was clear. There were just tons of major mysteries left unresolved.
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must they have had a nonspiritual interpretation? Not sure SithMenace ever said this.. He just wanted some clear answers.
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must they have had a nonspiritual interpretation? Not sure SithMenace ever said this.. He just wanted some clear answers.
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What was going to happen to the cast was on the list of things that DID NOT MATTER. I like the ending of Fight Club. I like the ending of a History of Violence. I like the ending of the Graduate. All were open-ended. What I want are explanations or suggestions of explanations for what happened up to the ending.
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much better then my Luigi taking a crap at Pompei analogy.
I need to work on my debating toolkit. -
I like you so don't think I'm crapping on you. We've been through a lot together with LOST. But after I finally, after 6 years, read the quote that many pple interpret as Damon saying "There is always a scientific answer", I see that I think there was a great misunderstanding. They were not saying everything can be explained scientifically, what they were saying, I'm pretty sure, was that everything we'd been shown had both a crazy explanation and a rational one. Not that for the entire series it was going to be this way. But I understand why a lot of people thought that's what they were definitively stating.
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Sci-Fi Realists and Religious Romantics have much different tastes.. I think the lost writers cow-towed to the religious romantics.. I can see why you felt betrayed.
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So Jack gets stabbed, then walks around forever, goes down the well, recorks it, then mysteriously is next seen walking in the jungle with zero explanation of how he escaped a place we were told he couldn't go? Then, and only then he bled to death? No I'm sorry sir, he "died" when he finally played out the island fantasy to it's end. When he could no longer keep the narrative going in his mind, he physically perished. When the dream of the island was complete, his soul was at peace and he laid down. Very simple.
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what the island was
---- it was an island. It contained a life force and darkness, and it needed a protector.
, where the mother came from, ---- probably a boat. she was given her powers by the old protector.
how Jack got out of the cave, ---- is this really a mystery to so many people? The same way Jacob's brother got out - the cave fills with water that drains out at that pond that they both ended up at. No mystery at all it was plainly a hole in the ground that water rushes through.
what actually killed him, his wounds from fighting Fake Locke killed him, but slow enough that he could do that other stuff before dying right where he happened to have first woken up on the island 3 years ago.
how Ben mysteriously got out from under the tree, Hurley and desmond helped him.
a H bomb going off, ---- it exploded cause Charlotte hit it with a rock, causing a crater but also calming the electromagnetism down enough that the timeline could fix itself and Dharma could build a station over the hole and contain the electromagnetism with a button that released its energy safely every 108 minutes.
a vision of the island underwater for no reason, ---- in the sideways-verse, it was underwater because it sank. Don't know how it sank, maybe it was Atlantis.
Syaid showing up with what's her name instead of his wife ---- His middle-eastern wife had many life experiences without him that were more significant, and she didn't have anything to do with the island. Shannon was who Sayid needed to fall in love with on the island in order to escape his life of violence and she loved him back. I fully intend to go to heaven with my future wife and not with a girl in high school i thought i loved for a few years. In the end, his relationships on the island were much more profound than the few he had off the island. That's why even in his own created reality he didn't end up with her. He knew deep down they weren't meant to be together. -
Well, I suppose primarily because I am an atheist. However, also because the show was not spiritually focused. It did not seem like a natural ending to what came before and discarded or ignored many of the materialist elements of the show. A satisfying ending should be unpredictable in advance and seem ineveitable in hindsight.As quoted above Overjoyed the heart, and annoyed the brain. I will admit I teared episode show and I definitely felt it.
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I just read your reply to Maxwell's hammer, and your earlier theory.. Your really reaching for stuff that isn't there man.. I like your vision though. It is interesting.. and I'll admit Jack walking across the island while stabbed is unrealistic.. I just have to agree that Jack dreaming up the island fantasy is definitly not what the writers intended.
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Not bad writing...pretty clever writing, actually. They had zero clue how long that show would be on the air and had to deal with tons of different variables as the years went on. Dealing with Malcolm David Kelly growing up faster than Walt did; dealing with Adawale Akinnuoye-Agbaje suddenly wanting to leave the show; trying to pad out the show in the middle-seasons when they had no idea how long ABC would want them to stay on the air...
I know the haters use some of this stuff as evidence that the writers were making things up as they go, but there was obviously a long-term macro-plan for the series, and I find it impressive that they were always able to find clever ways to incorporate these curveballs into the story.
Even their biggest misfire, Nikki and Paulo, ended up with a great payoff in having them die the most horrible death imaginable. -
Either he washed out, or he was teleported by the energy.
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It's been real, gentlemen :) I hope I was helpful.
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Yup, what I said earlier they played to the Religious Romantics and they left the Sci-Fi Athiests in the dust. Bummer Dude.
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The opening shot of the pilot, the very first thing on screen, was Jack's eye opening. The very final shot of the last ep, I mean right before the end credits, was his eye closing. Therefore, who cares about Locke's wife or the clothes Matthew Fox was wearing or his hair style...it's in his freaking head. I can't really say this any clearer.
Yeah, I'm a bit pissed too that 120 something episodes were the visions of a dying man that probably took place in the space of a couple of minutes, but if the ending we got was the best the writers could come up with, then fuck 'em, that's my take on the whole thing. They've raised so many questions and tried to screw us with them for so long that they've inadvertently given me an out; a way to look at the series and answer every single question without driving myself completely round the bend trying to figure out what it all meant. -
They did have other "mysterious factors" to contend with.. Like Actors aging and not being available or if your like Mr. Eko who wanted a billion dollars to shoot one final scene...
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In the Delorean, we were shown the Flux Capacitor. It was a scientific device that did one thing, allowed the Delorean to go back in time, and all three movies worked because of it. Did we need to know how it worked? No, because we knew exactly what it was and exactly what it did. Now Lost. We were presented with the island, and the question was posed, "hwat is this place?". For 5 seasons, the mystery was heaped on and we were told that this place could do all of these miraculous things, time travel, a smoke monster, scattered and diffused light, mysterious healing, etc. We get to the finale and they tell us it's a magic pool with a drain plug, that's what's responsible for all of these things. It's the life force of the Earth? I thought they had something really great in store for us, but they didn't. What about when the woman on the beach said the monster sounded familiar, like the chains on a roller coaster? What about when Farady noticed the light filtered differently on the island? It was because of the magic life force? What about Claire Needing to raise Aaron? What about the inconsistency in the Adam and Eve story? Just an oversight, or proof that they really didn't have this planned out all along? Even though they told us they did.
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But it was Juliet who set off the nuclear bomb, get your shit straight man Geessh!! Sarcasm sarcasm.
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It's a cave that water flows into. With a fifty foot drop. The explanation that Jack got out because he floated out is just an excuse for bad writing.
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Also - CARL! I thought you left a long time ago... I just did this whole thing with Malek and then again with Dancing... You're like my final boss dude...
If you choose to believe that it's all in Jack's head, and that makes the writers terrible at their jobs because its a waste of your hundreds of hours of time you spent following the show, then why dont you just accept that its NOT all in Jacks head so you can appreciate the writers attempt like most of the rest of us??? Why choose to hate? -
Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindleoff did... Where do you guys come up with this crazy stuff? Jack was dead for the whole show.. I tried to explain this position to a co-worker and it sounded crazy even trying to explain it.
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There was no flux capacitor, but much ado was made about Dharma doing experiments with the energy at the Orchid Station and teleporting bunnies and polar bears through space and time. So the time travel and the space travel can satisfyingly to that. How does the time and space travel work? The same way the flux capacitor does: through extraordinarily scientific means that are too complex for the average viewer to understand so you just have to take their word for it. And if you think the flux capacitor had a more specific explanation than that, please, enlighten us...
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So your saying the island was magic, and that makes more sense to you than me saying that Jack in his dying moments saw the island as a physical manifestation of where his soul would work out it's destiny? In your world, there is a magical island, in my mine it's Jack's mind's way of inventing a location for these things to play out, what makes more sense? Where did the mother come from, a boat??? Wow that's deep sir. The H Bomb, I will just pass on as it's insignificant. Your answer that floors me is Jack gettign out of the cave. How exactly was he washed out unharmed and allowed to jaunt around while it destroyed MIB and we were told only Desmond could enter it? Yes, Jacob's BODY washed out, he didn't get up and talk the dog for a walk. Your own answer disproves itself. I love this one...The island is underwater because it sank, then you admit you don't know how? Again, you can't even begin to answer the questions I threw at you except to say, I don't know. In my version, the island underwater is symbolic of Jack again coming closer to realizing it's all in his mind. The island is losing it's power and mystique. In regards to Jack's laying down, you don't see the OBVIOUS significance of him laying down in the exact same place, you see that as mere chance, or him saying "Oh this would be ironic, I shall lay down exactly where this all started." How clearly does it need to be spelled out to you? Dean, think of the last image, a simple beach on a very non magical island and the remains of a very sad plane wreck. Nothing that happened on the island was remarkable, what happened in his mind was. He found his own salvation and resolved his issues with his father, all played out against the traumatic events that happened minutes before. Much like a dream of the day before that contains many elements thrown together that don't always make sense, but in the minds eye work as a back drop to a greater morality play.
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You have good points, but what is wrong with that it is the source of life on earth? The particle physicists populist belief is that if we were near a dimensional rip that everything would act strangely.... Its seems the origin of life on earth would have to be near something that was "not of this earth" as ole Belloq said in Raiders...
I think they were playing the God card there and that pissed some folks off. -
because they needed an out if the finale was universally reviled. Instead it was only half reviled, when it should have been universally praised.
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"How does the time and space travel work? The same way the flux capacitor does: through extraordinarily scientific means that are too complex for the average viewer to understand so you just have to take their word for it."But there was no science involved in Lost. The time travel was possible because of a mysterious lifeforce pool with a plug in the middle. And apparently God put it there, since they went to heaven at the end. It's a classic Deus Ex Machina. 5 1/2 seasons of scientific possibility, and then whip out God. Copout bullshit.
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Notice how I try to debate him, but in his ind this is a video game scenario, where he keeps score. Again he couldn't even answer all my questions without an "I don't know." I offer an explanation that answer's ALL QUESTIONS, you failed at that the minute you uttered "I don't know," to one of the most significant ones I threw at you. If you want to play the game, please formulate a COMPLETE theory and don't just try to wing it. The more we discuss this, the sillier you will look.
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From the beginning of Raiders it was made clear that it was a biblical relic, it was even in the title. There was no bait and switch.
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Obviously I'm on Dean's side, but I'm trying desperatly to understand Dancing's point of view, because it just doesn't hold water to me...
So lets take a step back:
Dean - Magic Island
Dancing - Jack's Head, magic island doesn't make sense
Dean - Lots of unexplainable stuff happened that was supernatural or just writer and budget limitations
Dancing - Come on.. That shits just not possible man..
am I accurately simplying things here, or am I way off.
Dean - Writer's Intended "What Happened Happened?"
Dancing - Who cares what the writers said it is obvious what they meant?
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1 - It's all in Jack's mind as he dies. The first shot on the Island is his eye and the camera backs-up, the last shot zooms in on his eye as he dies. Sure he was wearing different clothes/hair but this could easily be explained as his flashbacks/meets fantasies induced by the last moments of death are fading away.
2 - They are all in Purgatory - Again this ties all the mysteries up, it's all metaphysical. I can understand why some would not like this, it implies the producers lied or mislead us.
3 - Everything which happened, happened...literally. Leaves a lot for viewers to interpret/answer themselves and questions completely unanswered but is viable nonetheless. I can understand why people are confused and upset as the Producers put us off the 'purgatory' style ending by suggesting they wouldn't use it.
4 - The MadMarek Mount Olympus Theory (TM) - Explains a lot and gives a back story to the Island and Loki/Jacob but does have a couple of plot holes I can think of. (The two boys real mother, the time line they arrive in) but I'm sure fans could explan them away if they wanted to.
5 - It was Bobby Ewing's shower getting revenge! - Now that's jut silly.
So there you go, 4 viable explanations ad 1 really silly one. I'm sure there are far more on the web but until they come clean and 'tell' us what the story was that's all they are. In the end it's if it worked for you are not and if you are completely satisfied. -
Your right.. They did pull a bait and switch on you, but I think it may have been intentional.. I equate it to them trying to pull out at the last second with the stained glass window in the last episode, but it was too late.. They already pulled the trigger.
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Well outlined sir.. and Your right the first 1 is very silly.
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I switched the vinegar for cider now!
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off your vinegar induced Mt. Olympus and becoming coherent now.. Oh no we are all in trouble.
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ARe for people who don't need everything spelled out for them perfectly.
If you are still angry that they never explained why the statue had four toes you probably should have watched the George Lopez reruns on Nick instead of this -
If you think you can write a better ending let me know. In the mean time I liked it. Sorry you got the regular Barbie instead of the Malibu Barbie you wanted.
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You are right of course, but Sithmenace does a have good point.. I do want to know what the writer's intended.. Like when they created the four-toed statue they said to ABC. We are going to have a 3-toed statue and ABC said "No Way.. That is too much." and Darlton replied by saying "Alright, fine.. but it can't five toes." So they obviously had something in mind and they never told us what... They were just toying with us.. This is what pissed off Sithmenance and I agree it was a ploy, but I think it was part of the fun.. I do think it is a bit of a cop-out however, but such is the nature of the limitations of a serial series versus a movie.
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May 25, 2010 3:11:05 PM CDT
Don't confuse having everything spelled out for you with "answer
by mooly
THere is no possible way for the show to explain everything in a way that will make people happy. What is the light? They explain it and people will ask? How did it get there? What does it do? Why did someone do that? Why did someone do something that led to the something else. People should focus on what we DO know and move on instead of trying to overly nitpick things. Why did Jack magically get out of the cave? We were already shown there is an exit. In fact they show Jack in the exact same place the body of the man in black was shown. Why did Jack survive? Because he had Jacobs powers? Because he's special? Because the light isn't as bright in Jack's time as it is when Jacob first saw it implying it is weaker? Because there are rules on the island but we are never told probably most of them? But I guess since the writers didn't have a whole episode talking about the powers of the light and all the different rules specifically about how the rules apply to the light and exposure to the light I guess it means the show sucks, the writers are idiots and jack is dead the entire time and for some reason needs two different purgatories.
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I'm sure Abrams and Lindorf are laughing when they read that.
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1) It's all in Jack's dying head. Problem: you have to ignore everything that happened between Jack opening his eye in episode 1 and Jack closing his eye in episode last. There were too many non-Jack related things that happened, including but not limited to: The Tailies, Juliet's journey to the island, Sun's quest with fake Locke to find Jin while Jack was trapped back in time, teh feud between Ben and Widmore, Desmond's freaky adventures being disconnected from time and space, etc...
2) The island is purgatory. Problem: you'd have to assume the Lideloff and Cuse are liars and assholes, which I don't think they are. I can see them hedging and contorting the truth to keep certain mysteries and plot points hidden, but to not out-and-out maliciously decieve the audience.
3) the Bobby Ewing theory. Problem: as you've stated, it's just too silly. -
So your saying the island was magic, and that makes more sense to you than me saying that Jack in his dying moments saw the island as a physical manifestation of where his soul would work out it's destiny? say that sentence out loud. YES my version makes more sense.
In your world, there is a magical island, in my mine it's Jack's mind's way of inventing a location for these things to play out, what makes more sense? Still my version, which is the show's version. It's what theyve been explaining for 6 seasons. look we may have to just agree to disagree here - neither of us are going to budge on this fundamental point. You haven't explained the shoe by the way. Where did the mother come from, a boat??? Wow that's deep sir. ---I've been saying the whole time that most of these Grand Mysteries arent that complicated. Everything makes sense even if it's simple. Or if you believe Sherlock Holmes - ESPECIALLY because it's simple. The H Bomb, I will just pass on as it's insignificant. ---- yeah totally insignificant (except before when you were complaining about it - now that theres a simple explanation it no longer matters, which is what ive been saying about all these "questions" the whole time!), unlike how Jack washed up in the pond at the end? How Jack got out of the cave full of holes is significant? We saw 2 different people, one dead, one alive, both not conscious, get carried by the water through the underground to a cave opening at a waterfall. screw you buddy - I can't use logic on you so i'm done.
Your answer that floors me is Jack gettign out of the cave. How exactly was he washed out unharmed and allowed to jaunt around while it destroyed MIB and we were told only Desmond could enter it? Yes, Jacob's BODY washed out, he didn't get up and talk the dog for a walk. ----aaaah here is where you got confused. Jacob beat his brother almost to death and THEN sent him in the cave where he drowned, the cave didnt destroy him. The smoke monster was released because MiB was alive for a bit but the monster didnt take his form until there was a dead body. So Jack, being almost dead, floated downriver and didnt drown that was just luck he got a few extra steps before his injuries caught up with him, but the smoke monster was already released and dead in Lockes body so he didnt get further hurt in the cave. Sure its a bit of luck but he only lasted 10 extra minutes so its not as big a deal as you are making it. I'm sure the writers didnt find that scene nearly as significant as you did. You just saw what you thought was a plot flaw and latched onto it because you WANT there to be a plot flaw. Hater.
The island is underwater because it sank, then you admit you don't know how? Again, you can't even begin to answer the questions I threw at you except to say, I don't know. it may be symbolic, but its another reason i like the real version of events better than your version - because in my version, no one cares that the island in sideways-ville sank, because it literally and symbolically had no effect on their sideways lives. So the history of it sinking doesn't matter at all.
In my version, the island underwater is symbolic of Jack again coming closer to realizing it's all in his mind. The island is losing it's power and mystique. In regards to Jack's laying down, you don't see the OBVIOUS significance of him laying down in the exact same place, you see that as mere chance, or him saying "Oh this would be ironic, I shall lay down exactly where this all started." ---- Yeah thats ok - I see it as the writers paying homage to the first episode of the show, and you see it as the entire point of the whole series. We can agree to disagree, except that YOU HATE THAT YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. You think because you are right that the writers wasted your time. So why not just change your opinion? How clearly does it need to be spelled out to you? Dean, think of the last image, a simple beach on a very non magical island and the remains of a very sad plane wreck. Nothing that happened on the island was remarkable, what happened in his mind was. He found his own salvation and resolved his issues with his father, all played out against the traumatic events that happened minutes before. Much like a dream of the day before that contains many elements thrown together that don't always make sense, but in the minds eye work as a back drop to a greater morality play. ----I'm totally cool with you thinking this if it makes you like the show more. If I can't convince you of what really happened, then I'll settle for that. I feel like Locke now! "I JUST WISH YOU WOULD BELIEVE ME!!!" -
I thought that this was one thing that was perfectly clear. Christian in the church saying that everything that happened to him was real. The reason he needed all of the castaways to move on was because the time he spent with them was the most important time of his life. I think that all points to the fact that the events on the island were real. I dont see any other interpretation, but if there is one, I'd be happy to listen. Also Matthew Fox said on Kimmel that the last shot was Jack dying.
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Delton's right. These mysteries were set up to tantalize the viewers, and if it weren't for the mysteries most people would not have watched the show. I personally enjoyed the characters and the mysteries, on two seperate levels, but in the end we only got a payoff for one, the characters.
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You are never going to convince the crazies that they are not crazy.. They will go on believing that "It was all in Jack's Head".
To them there is a way to explain all those things and that way is THEIR way.
To me.. i'm with you its a TV show with limitations so they can't do it all, but get their intentions (their story) out there.. I think they did that. -
… and you will hate the finale. There are so many questions that not only didn’t have answers, but demanded answers for the story to make sense. I’m not talking about questions like “who build the statue?” We can infer the answer to those questions and we don’t necessarily need them for the story. But there are hundreds of questions where the PLOT HINGED ON THE ANSWERS. For example, why does Eloise Hawking play timecop in Flashes Before Your Eyes? That was fucking integral to appreciating and understanding the story. There are so so many more questions like that. Everyone just forgot about them because they do not rewatch the show. But I promise you if you rewatch any old episode, you will be swearing at your tv because of how much bullshit they packed in there that they had no explanation for.
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What happen(ed), happen(ed). Whenever life on the island took place, it already happened and it meant something to all of them. Wherever they are now, whatever now is, is happening. It is their current reality. It's not an either/or. People like Dean, Delton and Oisin have given clear facts from the script and the concept of the afterlife but you continue to ignore them. Why? If you don't like what you were presented then that's fine, but don't try to misrepresent the facts cleary presented by the show. If you want to debate Walts purpose, the Dharma drops and Widmore's motivation then fine but there is no debate about them living meaningful lives on and off that island.
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May 25, 2010 3:17:24 PM CDT
When the writers say what happenedon the island was real...
by dancingforever
They are correct. Jack found salvation and peace in his soul, that did actually happen. In a very clever way they have given you the answer if you simply look at the outcome. When you accept that this was all in his mind, it also shows why there were so many inaccuracies, because they truly didn't matter. It's like trying to apply real world rules to a dream. Two very important things to focus on....Watch how the island completely becomes demystified in the last act of the finale. As each final mystery is solved and the MIB is defeated, quite uneventfully I might add, Jack comes closer and closer to realizing he is in fact dying and almost dead. As his life fades, so does the illusion of this magically time traveling island, it becomes more common and typical. 2. Why in the world would he die in the EXACT same place this all started? This is all coincidence? How much more obvious can it be?
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You guys are barking at a brick wall.. They will never see your common sense.. I think now they are just sitting back and waiting to spew some more non-sense.. actually they probably believe you and they are just toying with you now.. like Darlton did with us ;)
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was not the "real world" island story resolution. I found that stuff satisfying and cried like a baby when Vincent laid down beside Jack. My problem was that the church scene seemed to nullify a compelling narrative that began with the H-bomb being triggered. I understand that the sideways world was created after death in the real world, but who qualifies to be in the church. Why were Keamy and other assorted baddies needed for interaction and violence in the sideways world. Did Keamy and others represent the "demons" they had to face before passing to the light?
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then why set it up in the first place? Oh right, money. They had to keep people watching, and now they're laughing all the way to the bank. They even said just as much on Letterman. I have never lost respect for a show or it's creators so quickly in my life.
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A proper finale would have enriched the story, and made you realize why all of those things were happening as you went back through and re-watched. All this finale serves to answer is that God did it.
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I don't understand why you need theories to understand the finale
Everything on and off the island past present and future is real.
The sideway is a timeless place made for and around Jack it starts when he died (at the end of the show), the people in the sideway are people who were important in the best part of his life (the island) they help him like rose said in the plane 'let go' -
I like discussing these things with you, don't think I'm mad at you. Now, I've got to go and pick up a fresh OZ, I will be back tonight to see what has come up. By the way, the friends and I have a new strain this year we are submitting to Amsterdam for the Cannabis Cup called "The SMoke Monster," hopefully we get a good finish and medal.
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Your out of your mind, but I like you man.. I see where your going.. You want the whole show end-to-end to make sense. So instead of the limitations of actor's ages, budget constraints, and the time limitations of explaining everything.. The "Jack Mind" theory fixes the show to be perfect... I guess I can deal with that...
Like Will Ferrel when he had that dart in his neck in old school.. Your Craazzy man, but I like you. -
Eloise was obviously special in whatever weird way Desmond was. I think its highly probably that in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" Desmond was actually in his own little purgatory even then. And the same way that Desmond eventually could 'see all' no matter which world he was in, Eloise could do the same. in the "Flashes" episode, sideways Eloise met Desmond and already knowing everything about him, tried to stear him back toward what she already knew was his destiny. When he runs into her in the Season 6 sideways universe, she's basically doing the same thing, only this time, she's a bit worried that now that Desmond is growing more aware of how this 'purgatory' place works, that he'll coax Daniel into leaving with him, and she obviously wants to spend more quality time with the son she accidentally murdered.
This also explains why Desmond could suddently see flashes of the future...he didnt' realize it, but he'd been exposed to the hereafter, and had seen and understood everything, even though he lost it when he fell back into the 'real' world all naked and whatnot next to the Swan station. -
Your STONED ALL THE TIME... Finally, and I thought you actually believe that stuff your were ranting about.. WHEW! I feel much better now.
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I know I'm barking, but its fun untangling all the intracacies of the show in a forum like this. The more you reflect on the details from all 6 seasons, the more impressed I am that it all holds together. When you have to reference multiple episodes from multiple seasons to prove one little point, you know you've got a brilliant convoluted tapestry of a show on your hands.
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has weight.. I kind of like that God did it, but I can see why your dissappointed.
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We're cool bro, I like your style too. In another time in another talk back we will be on the same side and it shall be my honour to fight with you sir.
And thus....Well maybe the "and thus" should stay retired. :) -
During the show's run they kept saying it isn't the journey, it's the destination. Once we get there it will all make sense. And once it got near the end they said the reverse, that it was about the journey and not the destination. See what they did there? Strung people along promising it would all make sense and then say it was all about the ride.
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I’m afraid your theory does not come close to a satisfying explanation. And I’m not going to spend another second of my life taking the time to theorize answers to questions that no writer took the time to create an answer to. I already wasted 6 years doing that.
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A few possibilities:
1. We're still talking about them and maybe they thought that this would be a good way to keep the show going
2. They want to make a movie ala X-Files.
They felt that answering the mysteries would be a no-win scenario. Judging by some reactions to the meaning of the numbers and the identity of Adam and Eve...I can see why they didn't try. That's not to say I believe that there are no answers. I don't think you can plot any complicated story without knowing what is going on. Some people say they pulled this out of their asses, but I can't see that being a legitimate issue. It would have been impossible to write episodes without some sense of what was going on. -
when Juliet was referencing the vending machine and not the H-Bomb.. Brilliant.. or how they are always poking fun at themselves i.e. Hurley, Miles and Chesty Lapidus..
Darlton may have been in it for the money, but damned if they didn't know how to tell a captivating story. -
its been a fun couple of days - my original intention wayyyy upthread was to explain some of the "questions" that people thought werent answered. So since some people have at least read that stuff and some people have gotten less confused about things, I think it was a successful and fun endeavour. also - stop hatin on malek you guys, me and him came to somewhat of a truce hours ago. anyways - i cant make any points that i didnt already make, so im done - anyone thats stickin around to debate, feel free to quote me as if im still in the argument :D And good luck!
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First time poster, gotta say i liked the finale a lot. I thought it was cool the islands origin was left a mystery. I believe that much like the Dark Tower its the point of all creation and encompasses both 'heaven and hell'. Through out the centuries various groups have found it and exploited it. The ancient egyptians may have breached the light cave and had to plug it before 'hell' escaped, hence the glyphs on the plug being the same as the ones found in the swan hatch, the ones that translated to 'underworld'. I think that when the man in black was tossed into it he was spat back out because he was too corrupted after his time spent with the others. But the evil held inside the island also took the oppotunity to try and escape in the form of the smoke, taking his soul with it. This goes back to what his mother told him about a piece of the light being in everyman. Because of his encounter with said light he was connected to each survivor, allowing him to read their minds and appear as figures from their flashbacks, kates horse, yemi for example. This is probably all crap and not very well written but just wanted to throw some ideas in.
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Well "supposed" BR staff member. But good stuff regardless from DarkUFO.
http://tinyurl.com/2vaaflf
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I'll be one your side one of these days I'm sure of it..
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Damn I would love to be Kate's horse. And the way she looked in that black dress, DAMN! That is one outstanding women. I always went back and forth between her and Juliet, but the black dress was just to powerful and she gets the big win for that.
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Taking away from the true finale TB. Poetic!
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But I guess they realized there are more people in this country that believe in God then don't. They pandered to their biggest audience.
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Are you saying my explanation doesn't make sense? That it doesnt' hold up? Or just that you don't like that answer? I'm not a LOST writer, so I can't say my explanation is 100% accurate, but I'm positive that the real answer as it exists in the heads of the actual writers is some version of what I just described.
And not because my theory is so brilliant and I'm so awesome for making it up, but because all the clues within the show point straight at this explanation!
Some of the theories some of you are posting come only out of your heads and are based on arbitrarily selected and out-of-context moments and images from the show. I try to hypothesize based on EVERYTHING the show presents, not just on little bits and pieces here and there. -
Unfortunately she's always been super annoying too.
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I wanted Disco Barbie! :P
Anyway I'm off to watch the final ever Flashforward (oh my god may my artificially created afterlife have mercy on my soul) cya for now folks it's been fun debating with ya, if you all really exist ofc! -
It put out ideas that looked like interesting mysteries in an inconsistent and random way, but with the implied promise that an explanation would be coming. The polar bear looks cool and wacky, let's put it in. There's a hatch and a mystery, but who knows what that's about? The Dharma Initiative, what's their deal and what's with everyone trying to claim and protect the island? Time travel happened or not and what role did the bomb play? They just threw in things to make for a series of 'shocks', but really it was a con. I watched this show after a friend and my sister kept telling me how amazing it was. I checked it out and became intrigued by some aspects of the show and some episodes stand out, but I very foolishly stuck around when the show seemed to veer out of control like some runaway train off its tracks. I expected SOME answers and EVEN A FEW crumbs or real character development. What was the point of all these characters if they don't mean anything? Also, it's not up to us to decide the mysteries as they were clearly put in with the intent to eventually insert this deux ex machina. They did know how the show would end with Jack's death, fine. But they clearly did not know (or care) about the various aspects/theories/ideas they arbitrarily inserted to appear wise and guided. Terrible series finale that ruins the show and makes it not watchable for anyone who is thinking of seeing it. The emotional stuff is contrived and far too neat to make any sense and is wildly inconsistent and smacks of a last minute writeup. Let's pair off everyone and that'll seem like a testament to true love and forget the love triangles, the forgotten stuff and dangling plots. Seriously, don't give these clowns any more money, download it if you must, but don't buy the box set. Good-bye Lost, I shall not remember you fondly and will flip the channel if a rerun darkens the screen.
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I was just rereading one of your posts and you asked why Jack would die on the exact same spot he woke up on the island. I am actually surprised that you can't think of a reason. It is actually pretty simple. Jack said himself that the island was all he had left. Over six seasons he became aware that his place was there. Do you think it is out of the realm of possibility that he views his life as starting when he got to the island? Is it also beyond reality that he would see the symetry and want to die where he was "born"? Why do people who are capable of doing so go back to special places in their lives in order to die? I see it as being very plausible that he wanted to die where he woke up.
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Thanks for all the answers, I just wanted to clarify a bit and hopefully help anyone else in my situationI know the characters died "in their own time"...but was that when the plane crashed or on the island? I know now it was on the island and the plane crash timeline was continous, while the sideflash was a totally different timeline, and not a split off.I know you could get to the island if you knew how..my question stated in another way is basically why can the island apparently "travel"? ie it is only "real" at certain times, it can dissapear when the nuke goes off etc I dont really care anymore though, keep readingDesmond I guess is just EM resistant and Jacob know what would happen to him.Ok, let me see if I got it straight. So the island is where people in "real life" work through their issues so that when they meet in purgatory/another life, they can remember everything and let go of their problems in their new life/purgatory and go immediately to heaven.he island can hide itself and needs to be protected, because it is a path to enlightenment, a "gateway to heaven"Various cultures have lived on it and found it somehow but they leave almost no trace except a giant statue and one temple (which I wish they had shown being built). That makes sense but they should have shown a city on the island, because otherwise all that stuff seemed to be "magically placed"I still think the plug in the middle was kind of silly. If they had shown someone living in the middle of the island like a yoda character, I think it would have made it more clear that the island was a place for enlightment and self discovery.I also just realized Jack said at the end of the finale "See you in another life brother" to Desmond. Damn am I dense. I was wrong, I guess they did explain the island. I still feel a little strung along though. With all the time travel, 2 timelines and people being dead/alive/ghosts and just ending on a "its heaven" note, I guess it was just hard for me to see the story all at once during the reveal.
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When she only realized a couple hours before. It's not like she's been missing him all of her life, but suddenly she's the Yoda of Limbo? Come on.
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Just quickly on the church ending, i think the flash sideways was integral to the end. Jack saved the light at the heart of the island. In my opin makes the smake nion this is the same light they pass into when Christian opened the church door. Hell it even makes the same noise as when Desmond turned his failsafe key in season two. So if it wasnt for Jack no one would be able to pass over, they would all be trapped souls or if the man in black had his way, erased from existence completely. Again all just my opinion and Jack being my favourite character from day one might mean im biased. But damn i never understood the hate for that guy
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She meant that during the full course of her life after she left the island, she had missed Jack a lot. Before she died.
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Well actually it is because she missed him all her life that went on for some time after she left Jack behind on the island. She realized a couple hours before but couldn't say anything to Jack until he had his own moment of clarity later.
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Your right man.. They did.. A little unfairly.. So, man just come over and believe in God like me.. It's just easier ;)
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Jack died on the island as the Ajira plane was taking off, wisking Kate away to live the rest of her life. For the rest of her life, she pined for Jack and missed him. At the end of her long life, she died, then went to the purgatory-world. When her memories came flooding back to her, it was not just the island time she recalled, but her whole life after the island, which, we can assume, was at least a few decades, all of which was spent missing Jack. So when she sees him in 'purgatory', Jack just saw her a few minutes ago, but Kate hadn't seen Jack for years and years and years.
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Kate escaped the island. She died way, way after Jack probably and just remembered her whole life which includes how much she missed Jack once she left the island.
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Is that her best aspects are 1) her legs and 2) her smile, and they kept both hidden for most of the past 6 seasons with long jeans and making her always look so concerned. Juliet only seemed hotter because instead of hiding her best assets they showcased them with low cut shirts.
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I like to dream this was all part of her character.. and hey she is with Dominic Monhahan in real life.. that means we all have a shot GUYS! Well maybe not, but we can dream.
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. . . played by Lance Reddick from Fringe?
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Huh.. I must have been looking someplace else.
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You are supposed to just enjoy the journey. Don't think. Use the force Luke. Turn off your mind.
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May 25, 2010 3:46:51 PM CDT
The religious thing isn't even an issue and I say this as an ath
by tombseye
And I like a good romance and I'm heterosexual guy with a g/f. This show didn't make any sense! Even on a religious level, nada. They put in Latin-speaking Romans why? It's in the south Pacific or is it a place where all cultures meet or some cultures do? It was ARBITRARY and it's obvious. These guys know the Romans and were like, "let's have 'em speak Latin like in Last Temptation or something and it'll make it seem like this island has an ancient past! Also, let's throw in an Egyptian goddess too to make for more wackiness!" It was an experiment in a great con job. Make the audience think there's a purpose and that the ideas have meaning and then just say it was all about one man's journey to heaven. Again, fine, but what about all the dangling plot-threads and pointless stuff that was put in just for the sake of appearing cool and intellectual?
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She doesn't have much of a chest so I hope you weren't looking there. :)
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“Eloise was obviously special in whatever weird way Desmond was.”
How and why was Desmond “weird?”
“I think its highly probably that in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" Desmond was actually in his own little purgatory even then.”
Think it was just a time in his life in the past, not a purgatory.
“And the same way that Desmond eventually could 'see all' no matter which world he was in, Eloise could do the same.”
How could they ‘see all’?
“Eloise met Desmond and already knowing everything about him, tried to stear him back toward what she already knew was his destiny”
Why steer him to his destiny? If you believe it is purgatory, then why does it matter? What is his destiny? How does Eloise know and why does she care?
Your theory is unsatisfactory because it does not seem to explain much.
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it deleted like half my post! oh well, I still got it I think. I'll explain it for the people wanting a science answer which is what I wanted.
The island is a place of enlightment that has been lived on by many civilizations, who knew what it was. The island has to be protected because it is a gateway to heaven. The island has weird effects that lead people to each other/through events that will allow them to reach enlightenment in another life. Life, in LOST, is nothing but recurring, parallel lives. Hence, in the sideflash, when the characters "attained enlightenment" by remembering their other life on the island, they were free to move on to a higher plane. In other words, we live through many lives until we can remember our other lives and move on to another plane.The Dharma Initiative, and Widmore knew this so they wanted to study the island and figure it out. The island can jump around and cause time travel because it is magical, needs to protect itself, and so it can provide experiences for its inhabitants.Jacob is an island guardian and is given special powers by the island. Once he does what he needs to do to figure his own life out, he leaves. the MiB wants to destroy the island because he does not understand what it is and is hungry for knowledge about things, not knowledge about himself or enlightment. His soul is evil therefore black smoke monster. -
I have the blackeyes to prove it.
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I have the blackeyes to prove it.
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I had to do that last post twice, because there were two of them.
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from a t.v. show man..
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I meant an answer that ties it all together.
Swindler, Eloise understood reincarnation/had been enlightened but was afraid of moving on to another plane. Thats why she tries to stop Desmond and plays timecop. I agree that they left certain things hanging and kind of cheaped out on the end, but whatever. They'd painted themselves into a corner. -
How does Dogan being alive keep the smoke monster out of the temple? How do they know Dogan can do this? Why do they surround it with ash if it is Dogan who keeps it out? What is the Ash? How does it work? How do they know about it? How do The Others at the Temple even know what MiB is if Ben did not (okay, presumably Jacob decided to tell them during the 3 years of lost time on the island)? Why does MiB abduct Claire in S4 and take her to the cabin? How does Sayid come back to life and for what purpose? How are people corrupted by MiB? Why is no one else corrupted? That whole good/evil thing never even came up again. What about the machine that detects whether you are good or evil? This is just from ONE EPISODE!
It’s starting to look like a big bag of bullshit isn’t it?
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she still wins with her amazing cleavage-filled dress.
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That just explains Eloise in the season 6 limbo and it makes sense there. But nothing about Flashes Before Your Eyes makes any sense.
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Mount Olympus = home of the Greek gods.Home of the Norse Gods = Asgard.
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For months I've heard other people say the site posted their comment before they were finished typing and I always scoffed. But it just happened to me.
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It was just entertainment and I was entertained. I don't have to believe in the Force to enjoy Star Wars.
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I think in general big or small they are all great.. tough choice
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Maybe you can bring comfort to those other poor athiests. Sounded like the show hit them pretty hard earlier.
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Cuse and Lindelof swore the characters were not dead and they were not in purgatory since season 1. Hmmm... (I guess they had to work too hard to deny what the end was since we all figured it out in season 1) LIARS! They lied to us for 6 years! If they hadn't lied to us, I wouldn't have minded the ending as much. The ending I wanted, my thoughts: That Ben, the need for being special and his desire to rule the island comes out, as he decides he wants to have the answers - so he goes after the light, only to become the next smoke monster/evil. And Island Jack survies as the new Jacob - to keep the balance of good/evil going on the island life. And mysteries of the island continue there. But then I really loved the idea of the sideways flashes being that subconciously they learned from their trials on the island and got a "do over." Their sideways lives were so much better (sayer a cop, Hurley happy and lucky, Jack had a son, Locke got out the wheel chair and was married to Helen on so on) and as they touched each other they could remember what they went thru and could live a new and better life as a reward for saving the island and all the sacrificing they did. They earned it.
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For all we know the Ajira plane crashed and they all died. Just more non answers from Barnum and Bailey.
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and read Maxwell's & DeanCubed's post they'll straighten you out.. Good insight there they may help ya.
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You sir are a moron. Sorry but you have to live with that. The only mystery to me is how did Kate get those huge eye-bags? I swear they almost became characters in their own right.
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Unfortunately I could never emotionally engage with the characters after the series set in the 70's. Death just seemed irrelevant, then the sideways stuff made it even more irrelevant-and for me the whole sideways part was extremely tedious. For me the show peaked when they first escaped the island -the Widmore invading stuff was tense, what did he want with the island, why did he want to kill them ? We knew the island had a power. Now some people are having us believe this was all in Jacks dying head? Honestly, I think alot of the fan resolutions we were thinking of in season 1 would have been better. I LOVE emotional but for me this tried to do what six feet under did a hell of a lot better in it's finale in terms of emotional resolution, and that had actual relationships I could believe in -If I'd wanted a blab fest I'd have watched that. For me the main let down was 2 weeks ago when THE LIGHT was introduced. I turned to my mrs and Said 'You've got to be fucking kidding me' what an amazingly hokey deus ex machina. Really I'm happy if people can just accept the islands a bit magic, but I was expecting the islands power to somehow be tied to the real worlds existence, or to have at least some decent mythology behind it. As someone said before we could have done with more history of the island, it's purpouse, it's other victims, maybe how it affected the real world. But somehow it's ok that it's all a dream, or Jacks mind blinking out or whatever because AWWWW WE GET TO SEE ALL THE CAST MEMBERS BACK TOGETHER AGAIN!!!
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That's why so many do. But fortunately, science has been able to provide me with the answers that religion never could.
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He just smokes a lot of dope, he already told us that man! Come on keep up.
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is that it exposed all of the individual mysteries in one fell swoop. Instead of all of these mysteries coming together and enriching the overall mythology, they were just random things that led nowhere. It really seemed like they had a grand plan for all of this stuff to come together, but they didn't.
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You are the other side of my coin.
I look under every rock for answers, no matter what is revealed. -
mythology is just plain boring. They had the opportunity to really build it, intertwine it and make it complex and interesting, but instead they said "magic pool full of life force". Boring and disappointing.
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Imagine a ride at Disneyland, like the pirate ride or something similar. You are shown glimpses of cool stuff (well cool if you are little) and you gape in awe until you are lurched away and shown another tableau of interesting characters. None of it explained but a fun ride of being taken on this journey through all these people and places. That's the reaction they probably were going for with our main characters being the ones on the "ride" and us seeing through their eyes. I'm definitely not defending them as it's a frustrating approach for adults but that might be the way they figured it would be appreciated.
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Your bringing me down.. You should go get some ice cream. It is awesome and will make you feel better about Barnum and Bailey's LOST circus.
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I don't want you to think I'm trying to turn you, that's not my intention when I say this, I just want you to know what I think. The more I looked for answers in religion, the more problems I found. Basically, as I really started to get into it, I started to get more and more disillusioned. I started reading about atheism and was hooked, I couldn't stop, because it all makes so much sense. If I ever were to turn toward religion again, it would a non deistic religion, like confucianism. Basically a deity free set of morals and guidelines to live by.
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Not big on ice cream, how about a Coke and a smile?
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Awesome name btw. That may have been what they intended, but the problem with that is that at DisneyWorld, you don't expect to get explanations for the things that you see. If that was their intention then they really are idiots.
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The characters are NOT dead in season 1. They are not in pergatory. I don't get why this is so hard for people to understand. At some point, either on the show or not, all the characters eventually die and meet in purgatory...but that doesn't happen until long after the events of S6.
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Jacob told Jack that the entrance to the heart of the island was near where he woke up in the jungle. So when he was spat out he died near where he woke up on the island. It book-ended his journey. It did NOT mean he was dead the whole time.
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It's that the explanation is kinda lame. How DOES Desmond time/skip into the "afterlife"?
Why is there a waiting room in the afterlife?
Apparently Ben and Hurley were on the island a while after everyone else. So a big part of their life was the island and they just conveniently forget about it just like everyone else?
Why would every one forget the island and then start leading slightly different lives in a purgatory that Irish dudes can time skip into? Just doesnt make sense. -
When Desmond first meets Eloise in the sideways universe, which is where everybody goes after they're dead, he has no idea what's going on, and Eloise seems to know everything. She knows everything not because she's all-knowing, but because she lived and experienced it. because as we find out, upon awakening in the sideways universe, you recall all the events of your life. Because she knows everything from her own life, she's aware of Desmond's fractious relations with the Widmore family (see: her conversation with Charles outside the hospital after Desmond is shot). She may or may not also be aware of Desmond's connection with her son, Daniel (see: Daniel's notes in his notebook). By the time she passes on, who knows how much she knows about Desmond and his role in the events on the island. When she meets him in the sideways universe, she undoubtedly knows a great deal and says lots of cryptic things to Desmond to steer him in a certain direction, maybe partly to help himself, and partly to protect her son Daniel from being taken away, as she believes Desmond intends to do with the rest of the Losties. And its cryptic not just for mystery-sake, but because Desmond (and we the viewer) have no fucking idea what's going on at the time.
At what other point does Eloise make crytic remarks toward Desmond in which she hints that she knows something about his future?
In "Flashes Before Your Eyes": Desmond gets blown the hell up by the Swan station. He has a near-death experience, and ends up in the side-ways universe, where he relives parts of his life that area almost-sort-of like the way he originally lived them. When he tried to be proactive and change events further, to make the choices he originally wished he would've, who shows up? Eloise, acting like Time-Cop, seeming to know everything (who acually does know everything because she's dead and has all the memories of her life and knowledge of some of Desmond's exploits). he fights her a bit, but ultimately ends up giving in to her talk of not struggling against fate. given time, Desmond could have had an awakening, and become aware of all the things that would happen in his life, only he wasn't dead, so things that he hadn't yet experienced (knowledge normally reserved for the acual dead) were there in front of him, but not to be consciously absorbed and remembered. When he wakes up, back into the 'real' world, he's massively disoriented, and the residue of the knowledge that comes with death clings to him, giving him fragmented glimpses into a future he hasn't actually experienced yet.
All that is there in the episodes -
MIB can't kill the candidates, and Claire was a candidate. Sure, her name was marked off the list, but as Jacob said, that was only a line of chalk. Anyway, MIB's scheme involves manipulating people into killing each other, and by recruiting the candidates one by one to his side, he can better control them. He probably had dozens of different contingencies, and getting Claire to kill Kate was an obvious one. I suspect that Hurley's 'Dave' hallucination was also MIB, trying to convince Hurley to jump off the cliff.
Sayid coming back to life and being turned evil was a combination of things. When they bring him to the temple, all Dogan knows is that Sayid is a candidate, so he's obligated to try and resurrect him, even though he's aware that it might not work. After they try, and it seemingly fails, Dogan and Lennon find out that Jacob has died, which scares the shit out of them, and as soon as they see Sayid really was resurrected, they immediately suspect something funny might be going on with the resurrection pool and begin doing tests and realize that Sayid has been poisoned, but not being able to kill a candidate, they try to get Jack to unwittingly poison him.
Now, MIB didn't really plan for any of that to happen, but once he realizes it HAS happened, he takes advantage, and recruits Sayid, who just becomes another new piece on his chess board.
That was the point of that. -
Discussions about this show will still be going on in 10 years time. At least it was a show, albeit not always coherent, that took the intelligence of its audience serious and stayed true to its themes.
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C: Hey, kiddo.
J: Dad?
C: Hello, Jack.
J: I don't understand...you died.
C: Yes, I did.
J: Then, how are you here right now?
C: How are YOU here?
J: I died, too?
C: It's okay. It's okay, son (hug)
J: I love you, dad...are you real?
C: I sure hope so...yeah, I'm real. All those people in the church...they're real, too.
J: They're all...
C: Everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some of them before you, some long after you.
J: Are they all here now?
C: Well, there is no "Now" here.
J: Where are we, dad?
C: This is a place that you--that you all made together--that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed them and they needed you.
J: For what?
C: To remember....and let go.
J: Kate--she said we were leaving.
C: Not leave--No--Moving on.
J: Where are we going?
C: Let's go find out.
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...concerning Dogan and ashes, chalk that up to the same interesting but ultimately irrelevant stuff like where did the island come from, and why did the statue have four toes.
Would an in depth account of those things be fun to watch? yes. Was it worth sideline the character stories in order to address those details instead? No. -
thanks for posting that. I was looking around for it today and couldn't find the transcript. What part of that are some of you people not understanding?
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They didn't need to sideline the characters stories, but apparently they felt they needed to sideline the island mythology. Or more realistically, present a deus ex machina and hope that would be good enough. Instead of spending half the season switching sides and walking there then back to here than over there again, they could have spent the time slowly unraveling the island's mysteries and tying everything together. And don't say they did, because they didn't.
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“He has a near-death experience, and ends up in the side-ways universe, where he relives parts of his life that area almost-sort-of like the way he originally lived them.”
Obviously he wasn’t in THE sideways universe since his life was completely different than it was in the sideways universe. Even still it doesn’t explain why Eloise would want to make sure Desmond does not try to save Charlie in the real world. I guess it’s the same reason she felt like she could not and should not try to save Daniel.
Re: Claire. So he took Claire as part of some manipulation that we have no idea of knowing about? That is neither helpful nor satisfying.
Re: Sayid. Here you just summarize the episode. You answer nothing.
Re: Mystical bullshit. You tiptoe around it claiming it wasn’t ultimately relevant. No good.
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They've split the Lost finale discussion into two threads, to ensure it never reaches the heights it is destined for. I'm just going to post every thought I have in both.
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They've split the Lost finale discussion into two threads, to ensure it never reaches the heights it is destined for. I'm just going to post every thought I have in both.
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Sorry for being curt with you. I think I’m just annoyed by this whole Lost thing. But I think you’re theory about the world in Flashes Before Your Eyes being another sideways pre-death world makes sense. Basically, Hawking somehow learned you can’t and shouldn’t try to change the future because of the ordeal concerning her son Daniel. She took those ideas with her into her pre-death world(s) and used it to advise Desmond about how to use his newly acquired clairvoyance.
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I posted all of the answers you are asking for. It was here earlier.
Now its gone.
Granted, it was a long post but worth it. -
1) Desmond doesn't time skip into the alternate universe. He is simply aware of it.
2)Why is there a waiting room in the afterlife? Uhmmm...you've never heard of purgatory before? It is an idea as old as religion itself.
3) Ben and Hurley - Yes...like everyone else in that afterlife, they forgot their real lives. They eventually died like everyone else and then met up with everyone in the afterlife. As Jack's father explained, there is no "time" and therefore when they died in the real world doesn't matter.
4) Why would every one forget the island and then start leading slightly different lives in a purgatory? Well, I thought it was obvious based on the side-reality and what we are TOLD IN THE SHOW, that they were called to the island because their lives were horrible. It seems to reason that in the afterlife, they are able to live happy lived with the ones they love. Lives that are similar to their "real" lives in a way that they are still connected but without the influence of the island affecting them from the start.
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OK. Let me break it down for the thousands of you that just cannot figure it out. I mean they put all of the answers right there for you.
I have taken the time to parse together the various details and will break it down for you individually.
THE ISLAND: The Island is a prison created millenia ago.
It was created to trap an Evil entity so it would not wreak havok on the world.
The Island itself exists outside of time and also outside the boundries of geography.
This is why it appears in different parts of the world,
and also why it appears in different time periods. This is a security measure to keep people from finding the Island,
who may have an interest in releasing Evil upon the world.
this Evil could be Satan. Or, it could be a Jinn (Genie which would explain the smoke)
The Island itself is a very strong crossing point of electro magnetism. which is used to trap smokie.
Mom, Jacob & MiB: Mom is just one of a long line of volunteers to protect the Island The original Guardian could have been an Angel for example.
If MiB is the devil (which has no difinitive shape or look,(this may also explain the smokey appearance) Over time the guardians needed replacing because they were unable to do the job.
Mom knew she had to stop her other and more favored son, so she got Jacob to volunteer to become the guardian.
He knew she didn't want him as a first choice but had no choice so he was reluctent to take the job.
She gave him the water to drink which was just a ritual of acceptance. Of passing responsibility. The words she spoke were not magic, it was just a prayer probably wishing for good luck or something.
This made Jacob an Immortal. It is also why Jack didn't say anything when Hurley drank. What was importent was accepting the responsibility.
I come to this conclusion because Charon the boatman of the river Styx must remeain in his job until such time as he finds a willing replacement.
Mom Confronts Mib. He shows her the Donkey Wheel Idea which probably came to him from the Entity as a means of escape. (Remember, the Entity is deceitful)
He pulls the stone out of the wall releasing the light. (This act negates Moms Immortality and the Son kills her.
Jacob, who is rather petulant to begin with, finds out and in his anger he murders his brother and throws his body down the waterfall to the well of souls.
This act of Evil (Evil begets Evil) is what releases the Black smoke from his prison cell,(the well) but not his prison (the Island)
His release shows Jacob exactly what he is protecting the world from.
This is especially apparent when his dead brother shows up. (This is not his brother though because the brother was NEVER made immortal) It is Mib using Jacobs brothers face,
and also following their mutual desire to leave the Island.
A couple of Thousand years pass with the two on the Island and no way for Mib to kill Jacob directly because of the immortality spell..
Jacob starts trying to find a suitable replacement. and bring them to the Island but MiB keeps killing them. So Jacob has to come up with a way of protecting them.
THE NUMBERS: The numbers as revealed represented the Candidates. The numbers originally represented the position on the Magic lighthouse that each one of them could be viewed from.
There have been hundreds of Candidates over the centuries, but since the Island exists outside of time, Jacob could view all of them at once.
Finally he got suitable candidates and found a way to get all of them to the Island at once. But first he had to protect them from MiB.
So he traveled off Island and touched each one of them. This allowed them to share in Jacobs immortality so MiB could not kill them and also it is why they survived the crash.
I doubt however that it protected them from each other. I think it only protects them from the Evil entity directly killing them. This is also what he did to Richard.
The only way MiB could escape the Island was to kill all of the candidates which he could only do indirectly.
The CANDIDATES: These people were chosen because they were all broken and alone. They were unable to move beyond the mistakes they had made and were allowing those mistakes to dictate the course of their lives.
Jacob saw himself within all of them because he himself was stingy and truly only concerned about himself.
THE STATUE: The four toed statue was an Image of the devil. It was placed on the shore of the Island to scare away the curious, since a couple of thousand years ago people would have been much more superstitious.
Also, this is based on why we think the Heads on Easter Island are the way they are.
THE DHARMA INITIATIVE: They discovered the Island in the 70's when human technology acheived a point to be able to discover it.
They sent teams there to study it and its various effects through experimants.
They became aware of its time displacement properties and began to study that.
They created the button after they almost broke through where the EMP buildup was at. They created the button as a way to control the release of those energies, not knowing that it was part of the security system of the prison.
Eloise Hawking was a Quantum Physisist. this is why she was the one who could locate the Island, because once she figured out the math behind its movements, she became able to predict where it would show up and in some cases when.
Its likely that Eloise moved into this field after coming to the realization that she had killed her own time travelling son. She wanted to atone for her mistake. also pointed out in the purgatory world when she talked to Desmond.
THE FOOD DROPS: The Island exists outside of time so the food drops happened back in the 70's but because of the time differential they may not have mlanded on the island for another 30 years even if they were dropped seconds before.
DESMOND HUME: When Desmond caused Oceanic 815 to crash, he was exposed to an uncontrolled burst of electro magnetism.
This tore him apart spiritually. And it gave him some phsycic abilities.
When He was placed into the shed with the EMP device in it, this pulled him apart completely. He was in essense Dead.
He woke up in Purgatory and even though his accident happend only moments before, it felt like much time had passed.
Then he met Penny and it woke him up and he realized that where he was at was not real, but itmight be. So he started a misguided attempt to wake everyone up.
JACK-vs-MiB: All of this actually happened. This was not a dream or a figment of Hell. Jack and the other survivors were really alive. When Desmond was lowered into the well of souls, when he pulled the plug that dimmed the light, it turned MiB and Jack both into mortals because it was the source of thier power.
JACK & HURLEY: When Jack got Hurley to accept the JAcob job, Hurley was like Jacob. Reluctent. But his nature of character allowed him to move beyond it.
DESMOND AND THE BIG WAKEUP: Desmond got everyone together where they ended up going through situations that lead them to the bonds they shared with these people. It also woke them to the truth of their situation, even though Desmond still thought it was another reality. But what it did,
was allow everyone the chance to Let go of what was holding them back.
JACK FIXES LOCKE: Jack fixed Lockes back by getting Locke to have faith and to let go of his guilt. Once fixed, Locke realized who he was and tried to let Jack know by reminding him that he didn't have a son.
This was the real Locke, not Mib.
JACKS SON DAVID: A new life had begun in the Purgatory world. Jack ended up with one of the loves of his life, Juliette. But even there, they were not destined to be together. The son was a product of that imaginary life.
JACKS DEATH: It was Jacks final Journey that we were focused on, because Jack was the one who finally had to let go. When he did, he woke up in the purgatory world where his Father (we always meet a relative when we go to Heaven) was there to guide him into understanding.
WHY THEY WERE ALL THERE TOGETHER: The story was about the Characters and them leaving behind what was not importent. But, the time on the Island with the other survivors was what defined them. It was those connections that to each of them was the most important.
There are a few more things that are somewhat importent, but I don't need to go into them.
I hope this makes sense and answers many questions. -
* It wasn't that she didn't want him to save Charlie. It was that she knew it was futile to try and save Charlie.
* the sideways-universe is whatever you want it to be...its all a mentally constructed illusion. it didnt HAVE to be anything in particular.
* MIB manipulating people to his advantage was his entire MO! Its the only thing he ever did, and was a theme that played out over the whole series (Dogen wanting Jack to choose to give Sayid the poison; Ben wanting Jack to WANT to perform the tumor surgery; etc.). MIB's ultimate goal was to kill all the candidates so he could leave the island. Instead of trying to pick them off one at a time, he decided to get them all in one place and maneuver them into killing themselves. Recruiting Claire and Sayid was just the beginnings of him getting his ducks in a row.
* I know I summarized the episode. You seem to discount 'things happening' as important, even when those 'things that happen' lead to other things in a domino effect that spills all the way down to the endgame. MIB recruited Sayid: the events surrounding Sayid's resurrection are how he did it.
* I think the mystical bullshit thing is the one place where you have a point, but we have two opposite but valid opinions on. I know some of you out there would love to have all of that mystical stuff explained in detail, but I'm cool with it just being mystical bullshit. For about the tenth time on this talkback, I'll say it: Midichlorians!! Not all of the answers need to be shared!! -
What if when Smokey died in the island, he became Christan in the Flash Sideways and actually succeeded in killing off Jack and his gang by bringing them to heaven?
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Yeah I get it, he manipulates people. But why manipulate Claire and why do it at that particular moment? We don’t know since we can’t see his grand scheme. So it’s just kind of lazy writing. You could say the same thing with Sayid. I guess I just expected something more satisfying.
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Spread across two posts on one website. One side trying to make sense of the series, the other side trying to explain it.
This my friends speaks volumes about the ending of Lost. Good night. -
She presented herself to him in a vulnerable moment. She was like the weak gazelle on the savannah the cheetah attacks. Same with Sayid: MIB is an opportunist. When he realized Sayid had been resurrected with soul-sucking befouled resurrection water, and Dogen has delivered a newly maleable Jarrah directly into his hands why not take that opportunity to recruit him. he even had the benefit of Dogen sending Sayid to MIB under extremly underhanded and deceitful circumstances, which made flipping him all the easier.
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...didn't Hurley tell us that? Wasn't the original intention of blowing up Jughead to undo what had been done, i.e., prevent Oceanic 815 from ever crashing into the island? It seems to me that the alternate timeline was Jack (and the rest of our castaways) getting his wish. He never crashed on the island. None of them did. Because they never crashed on the island, Smokey escaped and destroyed the island, which we saw in the season opener. So the alternate timeline, while seemingly giving everyone a better life than what they had, was actually a kind vision of Hell. Their lives might have seemed to be better in this dandy pseudo-reality, but because none of them had ever spent that time on the island (the most important part of you life was the time you spent with these people) their lives were not fulfilled.
A Freudian/Lacanian reading would lead us back to one of the great storytelling truths: fantasy made manifest, fantasy realized, is not endless ecstacy, but perversion. The realization of our fantasies is not completion, but emptiness. -
You are correct in your assertion that BSG is better than LOST. I wholeheartedly agree with you. LOST had no payoff to all the mysteries it presented. And LOST was watched BECAUSE of it's mysteries, and watching to see what it was all about. Epic Fail.
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I admit---I cried my eyes out with the emotional resolutions and reunions. Loved it.
But I still don't understand...the island? The light? Huh? -
...of TV for decades to come. As for many (most of?) HBO series.
Lost, however, seems like a lazy attempt to tap into what made The Prisonner and Twin Peaks successful. -
They had a chance to create a dense, rich mythology, and instead they said "magic pool did it".
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They got to live forever until the Earth fell into the sun.
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THIS SATURDAY YOU'LL BE REPEATING THE FINALE WITH 30 MINUTES HACKED OFF!! WHAT THE FUCK??!!
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May 25, 2010 7:43:27 PM CDT
Emotionally moving and intellectually and vapid to the point of
by boober
Verdict: The actors pulled this off (sort of) IN SPITE OF the writers.
We had ZERO in terms of explaining the wondrous and the fantastic that intrigued many of us. I'm not asking them to pull back the curtain and reveal the wizard, but a little elaboration would have been nice. 2.5 hours of heartstrings and 0 hours of intellectual stimulation (when you are WAITING FOR IT NO LESS)...'round here we call that SAPPY, no matter how well acted. In the end you find out that the actors are good at their craft and smokey...is a plot device to present a threat in a story (whaaaa?).
5/10 -
May 25, 2010 7:43:51 PM CDT
Mad_Mike: Someone who spells "Physicist" the way you do...
by planetran_fan
as well as other words, shouldn't be providing answers to anyone!
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Sith, that is F%CKING HILARIOUS!!!!
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Breaking Bad neatly solves it's mysteries in an hour whole Lost never does.
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May 25, 2010 7:49:31 PM CDT
Watch as the LOST cast do fuck all with their careers
by amazing maurice
Welcome to Comic-Con!No Clooney for you!
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that they were dead the whole time!? Honest to fucking god man, really? It was SPELLED OUT IN FUCKING BULLETS by Christian! The shit on the island after the crash ALL happened! The Flash-Sideways was a "waiting room" world for them to all find each other in after death and carrie on. Jack just poetically died in the same spot in the woods that he woke up in after the crash. The plane he saw flying away was the one with Kate, Sawyer, and company. He smiles before his death knowing that he accomplished what he set out to do. I swear to fucking god I am going to assault the next person who tries to tell me otherwise. I get the disappointment from not getting all the answers, but honestly, the writers leaving certain things open for interpretation is better than anything that any single person could have come up with. There would be hate no matter what.
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Say what you want about where their careers actually go, but you cannot deny that the performances from most members of the cast were pretty unreal. Especially in the finale. Some of the performances in LOST were comparable to The Wire cast. There. I said it.
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Why and how was Jacob appearing to people on the island as a boy and grown man after his death? Can DeanCubed or someone else who seems to have all the answers fill me in on this one? I say it's mystery for the sake of mystery. What was the point of having him show up as a boy? Why not just a grown man?
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A. If you don't think that the show could have given good answers then the show shouldn't have brought them up. These were questions that required answers of some kind. They were not framed rhetorically.
B. The understanding that the answer for season 6 sideways being a waiting room doesn't make it a good answer. You can enjoy it, but I certainly didn't. It was cheesy, full of quasi-spiritual bullshit. -
Twin Peaks can hardly compare to LOST. Lost got to finish it's story. Twin Peaks barely kept making it up as it went alog, and didn't even get to conclude on it's own terms.
As a BSG fan of the mini series and 1st season, BSG will be forever engrained in my mind as the promising series that had a steep decline in quality by season 3 and after with consistent missteps in plot and character development, leading up to a series finale that basically said "God Did It." along with a emo conclusion where each character was given a pathetic ending. A huge waste of potential in my opinion.
However, Lost will be remembered as the series that started out with themes of mysticism, philosophy, free will, and redemption--and chose to deliver it's finale on those terms to become an immaculate work of art.
BSG was a series started out great and ended up a schizophrenic mess.
Lost was a series that started out great and ended up transcending the art form.
But thats just my opinion. -
What show were you watching the whole time? The whole thing was filled with "quasi-spiritual bullshit". As far as your point A goes, it IS a good point. But most of the questions that I had about the show WERE answered. Was there a lot of filler? Yes. But again, what show were you watching? There was always filler. It was one of the very few flaws, in my opinion, the show always had. Had this show been on HBO and had like 12 episodes a year we'd be having a different conversation.
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the Kaizer Soze reveal.
I understand that part of the cleverness of the show had to do with presenting situations/objects etc. that two people would see in totally different ways based on experience and perception.
But all emotion and zero answers is skewed way too far in one direction...Why not have the two timelines collide ending with good Locke killing bad Locke (his way off the island is through the nexus to the OTHER reality) to assume his role as protector of the island? Relax, it's just an example... -
Just have to say that season 6 had no excuse to be filler at all. They knew the show was coming to an end and they could have wrapped up a lot all season long so people wouldn't be left with so many unanswered questions. This season should have been PACKED with answers, but instead of the advertised endlessly "the answers are coming" they instead chose to ignore the fact that half of this show was based on the mysteries of the island and just said, "welp, don't know how to deal with all that, but let's put them all in heaven at the end and everyone will be happy." The flash sideways timeline and the heaven stuff all took place after the story we've been following, and it had nothing to do with the first 5 seasons other than the fact that the characters (who weren't even the same people we had come to know) were in it.
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It's more jaded disappointment than anything else. There's barely a bad actor in the whole series. Josh Holloway, for example, has charisma, screen presence and is extemely handsome(and I'm not gay, I have a long-term girlfriend and I have an 8" cock, so I'm perfectly at ease about my sexuality to talk about how attractive other men are) and yet he's done fuck all outside LOST except some bit part and aftershave work. The same goes for most of the rest of them.Seen it a million times before. Very few actors can detatch themselves from a long-running TV show.I still get jazzed when I see Terry O'Quinn in an old movie. He was Howard Fucking Hughes in the Rocketeer for fucks sake!But I really don't see a "Clooney" happening for these folks. It'll be Comic-Con signings all the way from here on out.
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Battlestar was always about faith, religion and Gods or God. It was the theme throughout the entire series.
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this "its all about the journey" stuff. so like seeing a beautiful woman doing a striptease then a hairy cock is at the end of it is okay.
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I agree that it had themes about all the things you mentioned since the start, which was what I loved about it. But to have an ending that completely smacked the viewer over the head with "God Did It" in such a literal sense is a huge storytelling no no pointed out and criticized by even the likes of George RR Martin.
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http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2010/05/lost-finale-all-the-unanswered-questions-courtesy-of-college-humor.html
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Once you understand what the hell is going on, it's very emotional and quite satisfying. Read Jeff Jensen's excellent 2 part analysis on ew.com, then watch at least the last 20 minutes agin. If the last scene with Jack dying and Vincent snuggling up to him so he won't die alone doesn't make you cry, then nothing will. It didn't answer all of my questions, and I am still a bit disappointed about that, but it was a great finale with emotional depth and philosophical complexity that was worthy of the series. If you still hate it, I feel bad for you, but it is what it is. I think time and distance will change opinions to thinking it was one of the greatest finales of all time. Certainly the greatest series of all time for me.
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May 25, 2010 8:41:41 PM CDT
How Hurley Found His Replacement to Protect the Island
by kevinwillis.net
He was much more efficient.WANTED
Island Caretaker. Must be willing to work for a really long time on a mysterious island. Should be comfortable with near-immortality and weird mysterious powers. Must be willing to protect magical light in a secret cave at all costs! This is a strictly non-smoking position.
Call Hurley at 481-516-2342 -
I'm waiting until the season comes out on DVD/Netflix on Demand. Then I'm going to chain watch the whole thing. I didn't start watching until season 5, and so I chain watched seasons 1-4, which was incredibly great. Perhaps the best experience I've had watching anything since the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Then I watched Season 5, but saw it again afterwards, chainwatching. It was much better chain watched. About 3 a night, four or 5 on Saturday and Sunday. I'm guessing my experience of Season 6 will be the same, and much more enjoyable chainwatched (and without commercial interruption).I've often argued that Lost is a work of art, and should be appreciated as poetry as much, if not more than, serial television. So image how much more difficult it would be to immerse yourself in Paradise Lost or Beowulf if every three stanzas there was a commercial, and after 10 pages you had to stop reading until next week. Lost consistently plays much better when chain consumed, like a bag of potato chips or a box of donuts. Gorge yourself until ill--that's the way to watch Lost!
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Ben: "How about this one? He sent a photograph. He looks nice."Hurley: "What? Oh, no way, dude. Nobody named 'Jack'. They don't last."Ben: "Well, then. What about this fellow--"
Hurley: "Seriously? The guy with a hook for a hand? We should put a guy with a hook for a hand in charge of the island?"
Ben: [Sighs Audibly] "All right, no hooks for hands." [Rustles through papers]. "What about--"
Hurley: [Shakes Head] "Too fat."
Ben: "What? Oh, come on!"
Hurley: "I'm just messin' with ya, dude. He looks great. Set up an interview."
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im sorry, but that was the writers showing their lazinessit was like, "hey, getting desmond to explain it all wouldnt have had the emotional pull...so we will put in christian...even though his explanation as to why jack and the rest are there, will totally preclude his being there"i dont care that there werent answers...i think giving answers is what effed twin peaks upbut i think much of the final season was one huge macguffinif you really wanna watch the waiting room scenario handled in a good way, see steambath, or defending your lifealthough, i do like how los angeles is purgatory...that is spot on
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BSG was solid pretty much all along, expect perhaps parts of the last two seasons. If you think the only message at the end was "God did it", then I think you might have taken it at the very first narrative level. One of the biggest points was man's relationship to it's own technology, society and fiction ( or religion/mythology, wathever). The characters didn't meet a pathetic end: They decided to unplug from the grid, become human again, until the next big clusterfuck. Look at the coast of Louisiana, spewing iPad juice. Hopefully, we will come at some sort of similar realisation.
Twin Peaks answered the main question: Who Killed Laura Palmer. I agree though that the series should have ended there, like 24 should have ended after hour #12 of the first season. Lost, to me, felt like Earth II, a tedious camping show with uninspired mysteries. The promise of polar bears and evil CG smoke puffs could never hold a candle to Twin Peaks' dancing midget, giant, Bob (probably the scariest character on TV) and Log Lady. And that's my take on that. -
I don't know if Christan was ever really there. Maybe he was there to help Jack realize his time on the island. Jack helps Christan move on, and then Jack moves on himself.
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May 25, 2010 9:06:13 PM CDT
Why didn't any of those bastards think enough of Vincent to save
by planetran_fan
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http://tinyurl.com/yhb7dnt
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Season 6 wasn't all filler. Outside of 2 episodes that I can remember (the first Kate episode and the Jacob/MIB episode) I thought they were all pretty fucking awesome. With what KevinWillis.net said, I'm sure watching it again on DVD and without the BS commercial breaks you would feel differently. I've seen a lot of finales - this one was fantastic. And again, I really don't have that many questions about the mythology. To me, just about everything was answered.
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You laid everything out quite well. However, my problem with the finale does not stem from a lack of understanding. Instead it is a matter of taste, and therein lies the point where I part ways with my fellow Losties. As I said in my previous post, I am perfectly happy with the "real world" island ending. I just didn't quite care for the touchy feely ("farting rainbows" was the Slate.com critic's phrase} church ending which in my view they could have done better.
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There were all there to let go of and repair something. Example - Jack's dad was a shitty father, so in turn, Jack was a good father. Maybe Christian needed to actually guide his son for once and make sure to be there for him once he's realized he is dead.
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WTF? Liar.
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talkbackers for ruining season 2 of Ashes to Ashes for me. Apparently, you didn't get the memo that BBC America is airing episode 4 of the current season tonight so we haven't seen all of it. Dammit!
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Do you think Jack, as a ghost, could talk to Hurley any time he wanted to after he died?
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I agree. Once you've come to grips with it not being totally what you wanted, and appreciate it for what it is, it's just quite touching. Even if you hate it in terms of the ending a/o where the show ended up, watch it and reflect on the emotional hits. Vincent comforting Jack's dying, that is just a very moving moment. Watching the episode without being preoccupied with taking everything in a/o raging over the revelation of the alternate/Purgatory reality is just quite touching.-Cheers
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That is a great question, I was also wondering about that myself. What the hell did this guy do that was so bad? Some crazy woman kills his mother after her ship wrecks, steals him, lies to him, keeps him from leaving to go back to where he came from. Then, because he kills her after she slaughters a bunch of people, Jacob kicks his ass and throws him in a cave that turns him into a smoke monster. I'm with the nameless brother. They didn't even give him a name!
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Kristin of e! said sources told her it was in the script but for some reason they either didn't film it or did and cut it out of the final edited version.
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He was never John Locke to begin with. He was able to shapeshift into his likeness, and that is all. When he lost the ability to have powers and/or shapeshift, you would think that he would have simply turned back into a pile of smoke, rather than stay in the shape of John Locke and actually be able to bleed and to be killed. How does that work???? Makes no sense...
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First, I don't like it when there are background characters that never get acknowledged, such as the "red shirts" in Star Trek--there were more than just the 14 or so characters we were given to watch who survived the plane crash...but they just walked around listlessly in the background and we NEVER got to know them. I didn't see the finale, don't really care to, all my favorite shows (Firefly, Profit, Rome) always get canceld, but I just gotta know, did any of THOSE people in the background end up being inside that church or whatever the hell was going on? Doesn't sound like it.
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I'm having fun watching all you Lost lovers come up with reasons why the show didn't suck. Seriously, you guys make the Branch Davidians look like independent thinkers. I could probably convince most of you to give me money for pooping on you. Please call me a hater and dismiss me with insults because I FEED ON YOUR TEARS!
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Not saying it sucked, just saying I never enjoyed it. For instance, I got up to ep. 4 of the first season on DVD, and when I saw the Iraqi guy say to the white guy, "You're a racist!" and the white guy responded, "Yeah, and you're the TERRORIST!", I was done. If you like that, then that's absolutely fine. But, as an adult (not saying you're not an adult if you like it), I've never liked that kind of "in your face" characters' qualms spoken so blatantly. I like it more subtle than that. But that's me. I liked writing like that when I was 11. I love abstract ideas drawn from things like Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN, and I feel like that's what the writers of LOST are SAYING they were shooting for (I don't believe for a second they knew where this show was going from the beginning), but, and this is just from the 4 episodes I saw of it, and a few scattered ones on Syfy channel throughout the years--I don't believe they pulled it off. It's cliffhanger 101, and I believe these writers have it down to both an art AND a science. Kudos for that. But I don't believe that necessarily makes terrific writing, although it is EFFECTIVE. There is a difference between terrific and effective in my opinion. Anyways...I'm rambling now. Adios.
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I'd go further and say that for a show that has pretensions to being meaningful and about souls and the value of life, the producers sure didn't give a damn about the great bulk of the survivors and killed them off as soon as they found a way.
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I love the point someone makes above about Lost being a poor copy of Ashes to Ashes. I can see the comparison clearer I guess with the original U.K Life on Mars , and I agree it was done much better. I guess by time the end of Lost came they had dragged the whole contrived thing out for so long I kind of lost interest (pun not intended lol)...
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As Boyd Crowder's daddy!!! and Justified is where I'll be tuning into on Tuesday nights to fill my Lost void (as much as it can). Thanks for the memories Damon, J.J., Carlton Cuse and Jeffery Lieber.
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...and you keep shitting in your hand and smearing on other people's things. We feed on your inanity.
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Im so glad somwhere in the world someone believes what I have expain to people hell yeah man
favorite parts in finale
jack and locke lowering desmond the light hole
the islnad shaking like youve never seen, when you see the boat in the storm, the ultimate showdown between jack and locke
when hurley called ben his great number 2 jacks death with vincent no one will ever forget that seen when thinking about lost -
I like fantasy workss, including Christian and other works. I just did not believe the ending was consistent with the rest of the show. They gave us the ultimate fate of the main survivors and little else.
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May 25, 2010 11:48:18 PM CDT
i agree with the guy who said if you use "hater" or "apologist"
by hst666
your opinion can be immediately disregarded.
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What is it with you people and your freakin answers??? "All emotion and no answers" "where were the answers" "the producers lied to us they said the people on the island weren't in purgatory"
Fuck you all. All your answers were already explained BY ME and others (thanks maxwell) for HOURS. Just read the shit and get off your hater-horse.
You know what? here is my email address. Send an email to dean.cubed@gmail.com with the subject like "LOST question" and I'll answer any questions you want. But I'm tired of coming in here and seeing that people have made NO EFFORT to understand what was blatantly explained. Just email me your questions I'll give you the show's answers. You may not like them, but I'll give them to you. -
Do I really have to e-mail, or can you just tell me now why Jacob was appearing as a boy/grown man to people after he was dead already? I really want to know the answer to that one.
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Was the smoke monster a separate entity, or was it really the nameless brother? That one too.
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you can also add to that people who say "there. i said it" as if they just laid out some earth shattering news when in reality all they said was brandon routh was better then christopher reeve or something equally stupid.
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He appeared as a boy to mess with LockenessMonster's head and remind him of the rules. He appeared as a man the other times because he actually wanted to say something and he was more comfortable that way. The only times he was a boy was when Locke was around, other than at the end I believe when he just wanted his ashes. The kid version seems more corporeal than the adult ghost though, not sure why but it probably doesn't matter.
The Monster was probably MiB's soul that was consumed by the darkness in the cave when MiB's living body floated in. So the smoke monster is the corrupted soul of MiB and a physical manifestation of the darkness trapped on the island. He also took on the knowledge and motivations of those he possessed so he appeared to Jacob as MiB in order for Jacob to be able to relate to him, and then as other people and animals in order to relate to whoever he was appearing to. The body he possesses still exists once he takes their form, but when Jacob died, the monster found his power to switch bodies had also disappeared. This is why they were able to kill him after the light went out he became mortal, still in Locke's body. And the monster likes to be in human form as much as possible so that he doesn't start considering himself a monster more than he has already been forced to. -
brabon300, you have excellent taste in movies. That movie has the biggest heart going.
Oh and DeanCubed, man I love Lost. We have different interpretations on it but brotha we're alike in our love for the show. Peace. -
He was in the source just like the nameless brother.
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I actually disagree with Dean on that one. I think the monster is a malignant entity who needed some kind of vessel to escape from a prison inside the island. MIB became that vessel, and in taking MIB's form, the monster took on some of his personality, the same way he took on some of Locke's personality when he took his form later on. I think MIB was just as dead as Locke.
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...because there was no monster in the cave when he went there. The rule isn't: "go in the cave, turn into smoke". It's: "go in the cave, and risk the monster killing you and taking your form." But the monster was out and dead by the time Jack went into the cave.
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What are the rules? How are they enforced? Why could Jacob only be a ghost for a little while? Did the nameless brother really need to be reminded of the rules after all those years?
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...I'm inferring from the evidence of what happened on the show. Who the hell knows why they are like they are?
As MIB said to Jacob in "Across the Sea", when you get your own game, you can make up your own rules. Dissing the show for not explaining some of that stuff is like going to a baseball game and complaining that you hate baseball because you don't understand why you only get three strikes. There are valid reasons to not like baseball, but that seems like a weird one.
Granted, you may not hate LOST and are only asking out of frustrated curiosity (which I can understand), but there are some people who are dismissing the show as a total failure because that stuff wasn't addressed, and I think that's what's been driving DeanCubed and I nutso. -
is that this show left endless questions we will never have actual answers to, it will just be up to us to figure it out for ourselves, and there will never be any real "right" answer. I would have appreciated the writers spending this final season focusing more on doing that work for us. That being said, I was happy we found out what actually happened to the characters, unlike the Sopranos.
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Is the hope (by that I mean the intentions of the writers) that they didn't lie when they said the island was 'real', and that the island was a metaphor for living life itself (that being, we really don't know what the fuck we are doing, and so we don't know if we are ever doing the 'right' thing).That being said, I've never been on a plane...and have no ability to walk... and/or has Peggy Bundy for my lover.
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" The body he possesses still exists once he takes their form, but when Jacob died, the monster found his power to switch bodies had also disappeared. This is why they were able to kill him after the light went out he became mortal, still in Locke's body. "Flocke never went into Locke's body. He had a "false face".
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I mean, his body was laid to rest next to dear ole Non-Mom. The smoke monster was MIB's body hitting the submerged catalytic converter of the buried UFO. ;-) I'm not going to publish a thesis on here, but the writer's wrote themselves a loophole, and that is that. I leave it to someone more dedicated to chart out all the inconsistencies, contradictions and voids. Someone said that we at least got to see what happened to the main characters unlike the Sopranos. Well, apply LOST logic and obviously the all characters on Sopranos eventually die and have an AFTERLIFE meetup before embracing the Big Yonder. Heck, maybe they all had an alternate life too! Sure, I'm glad, Jack passed muster, the Island/World was saved, and that everybody got a feelgood hug at their common Event Horizon. But: knowing all that, and that Sideways Flash was really nothing more than a dodge to play on season five's end puts the sand in the cakehole. I get it; you know the Carney conned you, but you have no right to bitch because you lays your money down and you takes your chances. It happened similarly with Dark Tower; that first palaver, the first layering of hints, only to end in straw-men villains and a video game ending. Does it mean I hate the Dark Tower now? No, but neither do I relish going past where brilliance led to something less. When people start discussing Jacob's Rules, I start thinking of Good Omens when it talks about God's Ineffable Plan. ;-)
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They meant nothing, and were put in by ABC, not Darlton, etc. The series ended with Jack's eye closing, and we are supposed to believe what Christian said. Check it: http://tinyurl.com/2cyjkc6
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I mean we got to see that some people got off the island, Hurley and Ben took over, Jack sacrificed himself. That put their story to an end, unlike the Sopranos and their open to interpretation non-ending. The meeting up in what was essentially purgatory, realizing they're all dead, and all the flash sideways stuff was a waste of time and had nothing to do with the rest of the story.
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the ending to the Sopranos could not be clearer.
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They said they wanted it to be open to interpretation which = non-ending.
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But the Lost finale was a total cop-out and ignored every hard task. The writers gave a bunch of emotional awakenings (that if you think about for more than a few seconds were completely pointless in view of the last 20 minutes) and avoided anything that would have been challenging or difficult to answer. Not BSG bad, but nowhere near as intellectually and emotionally satisfying as the Sopranos finale.
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Who's defending that?
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May 26, 2010 3:22:26 AM CDT
Transhuman, I thought the Soprano's ending was clear
by talkbacker with no name
Tony was shot in the back of the head by the guy who went into the bathroom. The fade to black was his death I thought. no?
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...about the unanswered questions in Lost is brilliant. Plus it's just the tip of the iceberg.
For those of you who love the ending of Lost so much you're going to watch the entire season again just do one thing for me. Have a pen and pad handy. Every time a mystery is raised, write it down, every time it's left unanswered at all, write it down. Every time it's answered by "The Island did it" write it down. Every time you have to come up with your own assumption based on misdirection and cloaked hints, write it down.
Then at the end, try and avoid smashing your head into the TV. -
They couldn't have beat us over the head more with the answers they did give if they tried. A perfect example was flashing back to Jack finding Adam and Eve in the cave. The final season was about as subtle as a sledgehammer, man.
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May 26, 2010 3:37:10 AM CDT
maxwell's hammer, ok if you are going with it being a monster
by talkbacker with no name
and not MIB turning into smoke, riddle me this. How does he know Jacob? why do they talk about things as if they are brothers? why did he freak when he saw baby jacob in the jungle all the time? He took MIB's memories as well as his form? That doesn't make sense, bud. His body was torn from him and he was left as a black soul of smoke. For whatever reason, (maybe the murder he commited), he was turned to smoke. Jack wasn't turned into any such thing because he is a good man. What would even be the point of MIB, his backstory and his relationship with jacob in the first place if he wasn't paying for his sins in some way? It's what gave him his motives.
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but I thought that was showing us that it all did happen not that they were all dead when it crashed. Either way ABC's reasons were a little silly. As if people needed something to soften the blow before the news! hehe silly buggers.
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I agree that the Ashes to Ashes finale was miles and miles better than Lost's; it wrapped up not one but TWO separate series in a satisfying way that made, for the most part, plenty of sense.
However, Ashes to Ashes had to wrap up a MUCH less complex storyline. Ashes to Ashes episodes were far less "serialized" in nature than Lost's, and only a small percentage of each one would deal with the show's mythology. And that mythology, by the way, was always fairly ambiguous. So those guys had a much easier time of it (and one of the greatest characters in TV history to work with).
That being said, unlike the writers of Lost, the Ashes to Ashes/Life on Mars guys never really bit off more than they could chew on the plot front. -
There were three reasons to watch “Lost” — or to stick with it, more aptly, across six immensely engrossing and immensely frustrating seasons. You could watch for the characters, who were two-dimensional and archetypal in a way, but rich and relatable and even lovable in the way that great pulp casts can sometimes be. You could watch for the thrill of it — the endless cliffhangers, the constant narrative whiplash, the mobius-strip plotting, and the way the show could blithely disassemble and reassemble its narrative architecture (flashbacks followed by flashforwards! flashforwards followed by time travel!) and somehow have the whole thing work. And of course, you could watch for the macro-plot — the mythology of a mysterious island, which layered puzzle atop riddle atop intrigue like no show since “The X-Files,” promising all the while (or seeming to promise, at least) to be building up to a revelatory denouement.
The series finale was a great success if you watched the show for the first reason, intermittently interesting if you watched it for the second, and a great crescendo of failure if you watched it for the third. I watched it for all three, so I was by turns moved, engrossed, and deeply irritated. But mainly I was irritated, because in the end I’m a plot-centric person, and “Lost” was a densely plotted show, and the macro-plot turned out to be … well, a big nothing seems like an awfully strong way of putting it, but it was certainly close to that. -
Ashes to Ashes did have a lot less baggage to work with, they never really backed themselves into a corner they could never get out of. That's how you you write a great TV show!
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I have no clue what show the 'Apologists' have been watching for 6 years. The show I was watching encouraged viewers to construct theories, examine clues, research ideas, (scientific, metaphysical, cultural). And yes, I mean that the show did that, they were party to The Lost Experience, they described it as a mystery show. Then they, and the apologists, start saying "it was always a character show" and presenting a false dichotomy between providing 'emotional resolution' and 'staying true to the characters and their journey' on the one hand and actually bringing the mystery element to a resolution. A SKILLED WRITER COULD HAVE DONE BOTH!!!!! It doesn't have to be one or the other. When it comes to the hardcore fans, who theorised and engaged with the mystery of the show HAVE been betrayed by Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof, who were obviously writing for people more intelligent than they are (as evidenced by the fact that if you go back and read viewers' theories, many of them are much better than the finale Darlton wrote).
I was involved in Lost professionally (writing for the Lost and Philosophy book) and I'm now forever tied in print to a show which has disrespected its fans in the worst possible way. Absolutely gutted.
What made Lost different from other TV shows was its sense of community in the fans, who got together from all over the globe and said "let's try and solve this mystery together". What made it different was that the fans by coming together in the Lost Experience, Lostpedia and forums like this added their experience of pop culture and literature, expertise in philosophy, science, egyptology (!), etc. It turns out that in doing so, we surpassed the producers/writers' levels of ability to engage with the material. I feel like a ten year old who's just discovered that they're cleverer than their teacher!
I'd say to Darlton: go talk to Joss Whedon. He will explain the notions of internal coherence, staying true to the internal rules of your show, how to build characters in a way not just based on some shitty pop psychology, how to pay off fans' effort, and probably 100 other aspects of writing a decent serial AND ending it properly in a way that doesn't leave fans feeling emotionally manipulated into enjoying something that was NOTHING TO DO WITH the show we've been watching. -
The show is completely linear right up until the final season, and what you do is you completely seperate the island stuff from the non-island stuff. The island stuff continues the story in a linear fashion, the story ends with Jack lying down and dying, and Hugo taking over as the new Jacob. Untold years later, as the last of the core group dies they collectively create a "reality" in which they all play a part, this is the storyline where Jack has a son, Hurley is the chicken king, etc. At this point everyone is dead but existing in a transitional state before going "into the light" as it were because they all had issues to resolve, that's why ben didn't go in, he wasn't ready. The reason Kate said she missed Jack was because she escaped the island with Sawyer and lived the rest of her long life missing Jack. The trevails of the island bound the souls together, they needed to move on together as well. Forget the small details, the show created some of the most memorable characters and moments in TV history, it was awesome to the end.
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I'm hoping Maxwell or Dean actually read this
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The show I was watching encouraged viewers to construct theories, examine clues, research ideas, (scientific, metaphysical, cultural). And yes, I mean that the show did that, they were party to The Lost Experience, they described it as a mystery show. Then they, and the apologists, start saying "it was always a character show" and presenting a false dichotomy between providing 'emotional resolution' and 'staying true to the characters and their journey' on the one hand and actually bringing the mystery element to a resolution. A SKILLED WRITER COULD HAVE DONE BOTH!!!!! It doesn't have to be one or the other. When it comes to the hardcore fans, who theorised and engaged with the mystery of the show HAVE been betrayed by Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof, who were obviously writing for people more intelligent than they are (as evidenced by the fact that if you go back and read viewers' theories, many of them are much better than the finale Darlton wrote). I was involved in Lost professionally (writing for the Lost and Philosophy book) and I'm now forever tied in print to a show which has disrespected its fans in the worst possible way. Absolutely gutted. What made Lost different from other TV shows was its sense of community in the fans, who got together from all over the globe and said "let's try and solve this mystery together". What made it different was that the fans by coming together in the Lost Experience, Lostpedia and forums like this added their experience of pop culture and literature, expertise in philosophy, science, egyptology (!), etc. It turns out that in doing so, we surpassed the producers/writers' levels of ability to engage with the material. I feel like a ten year old who's just discovered that they're cleverer than their teacher! I'd say to Darlton: go talk to Joss Whedon. He will explain the notions of internal coherence, staying true to the internal rules of your show, how to build characters in a way not just based on some shitty pop psychology, how to pay off fans' effort, and probably 100 other aspects of writing a decent serial AND ending it properly in a way that doesn't leave fans feeling emotionally manipulated into enjoying something that was NOTHING TO DO WITH the show we've been watching.
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They promised us during the first season that we wouldn't get a purgatory or a they are actually dead storyling but in the end that's what they gave us.
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the UK original version of Life on Mars, while the episode quality was superior to that of the US version, ended worse than the US version. It was all a dream always sucks. If the ending to Ashes to Ashes adds anything then maybe I will revise my opinion of the UK version.
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that "fans" who claim to be so much smarter than the show don't even truly get it. Do you people even understand what "purgatory" is? They could have completely excised the entire "alternate reality" storyline (NOT what it was) and simply showed the island stuff as made it much easier for the simpleton's to grasp.
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I followed everything. The ending was perfectly understandable. It was just very disappointing and didn't provide any resolution to many of the island stories. Once again - overjoyed the heart, annoyed the brain. The people insisting the finale was great obviously don't care about plot.
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May 26, 2010 6:32:14 AM CDT
To the people who complain "if not religeous, how could they pos
by ooooouuutttlllaaaaaaaaaaw
To the people who complain "if not religeous, how could they possibly explain it all?" If not all fluffy ambiguity, what could possibly explain it...?
Time travel. (Which was one of the main themes of the series.)
They could have explained the coincidences, the numbers, and many other things with "The Rules" that they began to lay down in seasons 4 & 5. Maybe someone tried to change something in the past and all of the shinaniigans that took place over the years was the universe trying to correct itself.
Season 1-3 set up the (many) mysteries, Seasons 4 & 5 set up the foundation to explain it with logic, and Season 6 just gave up in attempting to explain anything.
(Lost series finale was still better than BSG.) -
hst666- I think we're going to be told we don't 'get it' for a while to come! I think Darlton have done what they set out to do- but unfortunately all they set out to do was write a finale that would divide fans into two camps, with the camp that loved the ending insisting that the other camp is too small-minded and childish to understand the themes of the show.
Darlton recently stated that there were a number of fans who are like children playing the 'why' game (in which every answer they give is responded to with 'but why?'). It's no wonder that some fans are following suit. I didn't want to have the answers spelled out and not do any of the work- as a Lost fan, I've always accepted that I have to do a lot of the work, and that's always been part of the fun and beauty of the show. But I can't help but think that no matter how much work the critically engaged fan does, there can never be a satisfying conclusion to the mysteries presented in the first 5 seasons.
I absolutely loved this show, loved following the clues, enjoyed getting to know a lot of the characters.
And while I understand that sometimes the journey is as important as the destination (and that this thought ties in with the themes of the show), but even so, the show as a whole failed to live up to it's promise and premise in quite an epic way. -
I didn't like the end to the UK version of Life on Mars but they tie it all up beautifully in Ashes to Ashes.
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I have not seen the finale or the last few episodes but are people trying to say that we don't find out what the island actually is?, why the island can go through time?, what the smoke monster is?, who the Dharma guys are and why they were interested in the island?, who The Others are?, what the 'numbers' actually mean?, what that forcefield thing is that Desmond turned off in the early seasons?, what that map pedulum thing was that told them where the island would be last season?, why some of the characters can see ghosts?, what the statue is? and the obvious one....was there actually a point at all to all the flashbacks in each and every epsiode? etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Are none of these and many other points answered? because if they were not then it can of makes the whole show pretty pointless!.
I'm going to be watching the remaining episodes over the next few days but i'm starting to get a little worried! -
God, this is lame, the two TBs. The alt reality as limbo ends up being ineffective. I don't mind going out with a "Wha?" but I think this one is unintended. There is no clue as to the nature of the alt reality, its genesis or the reason for its genesis beyond Christian Shepherd's "you all made it as a place to meet up" ... Which is just not intriguing or satisfying. It's just vague and uncompelling.
There's no context; there's no relationship to the show we'd been watching in terms of the sci-fi/fantasy stuff, but neither it just an extension of "normal" character life. it's a gimmick with no home. I mean, it's a totally new concept (to the show) introduced at the very end. (Now that I think about it, it's a conceptual "island" heheheh).
I don't know. I would love to find that there are major clues or hints as to how the limbo reality came about, but I don't see them. If it's the case, for instance, that the bomb actually created it, that would be fine with me. Christian Shepherd says "the bomb explosion created this reality that you have to go through and remember before you pass on" or some shit. FINE. But there's like NO evidence of any such thing.
It just seems like a bully move to me, that the writers were so insecure that people are too focused on the "wrong" things, that they created this whole new conceit with the sole purpose of screaming at the top of their lungs "THE ISLAND DOESN'T MATTER, ONLY THE PEOPLE DO" ...
And for the majority of real followers of the show, it's just unnecessary. We didn't need to have our face shoved in that idea, we were already on board. Why the hell else would we still be watching? There was no reason to use an entire half season to try and make people stop worrying about the mysteries. They should have had more faith that they could do what they needed to do without such tactics, and also more faith in the audience that they didn't need to be force fed something they probably were down with since season 1. -
You're not small-minded & childish for that. Personally I THINK there are answers to a lot of the questions, but we have to accept that for one they left it intentionally vague (which is maybe backfiring a tad), and for another they are making us wait before they come out of hiding to possibly field any questions (or not). Plus whatever they have (or don't) as bonus/commentary stuff on the boxed set(s), a/o what might (not) get leaked later on.-Cheers
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I've said this ad nauseum in the other thread (abandoned almost for a completely new thread - sound familiar??? haha) but it undercuts your point to call someone who disagrees with you an "apologist" or to do the converse, call someone a "hater". Anyway I largely agree with your assessment except in my opinion had the show ended exactly as it had but without the limbo reveal, or without the alt reality altogether, that would have been satisfactory. The fault for me is not that they did too little but that they did too much. There just was no reason to add the limbo concept aside from emotional payoff which I'm sure they could have done other ways, clever men and women that they are.
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"It just seems like a bully move to me, that the writers were so insecure that people are too focused on the "wrong" things, that they created this whole new conceit with the sole purpose of screaming at the top of their lungs "THE ISLAND DOESN'T MATTER, ONLY THE PEOPLE DO" ..."
I don't think so at all. I don't think they care about that so much as telling what kind of story THEY want to tell.Let's just pretend I'm wrong on that point. I think they want us to at least think it's possible detonating Jughead created the alt-reality that you have to go through and remember before they pass on. It's intentionally left vague so people can sort of choose their own adventure, but the timing of them placing the two events together seems pretty obvious that's what they were getting at. Was it a bit obtuse? Sure. However, they seem to be implying the two were related. Maybe it was just a red herring, but they still implied it and certainly never shut the door on the possibility Faraday was right and that was what caused the split afterlife timeline.I also think they included that as a way to bring back most of the important cast and give them a farewell, happy ending, kumbaya, send off to whatever afterlife (or lack thereof) you believe happens after death. By doing so without explaining it, AND by making things ambiguous enough to let people sort of decide what theory they want to apply to the series, I think they just left a lot of people annoyed, confused, and wishing they'd just had a more concrete ending with more science and a longer lead-in to the idea of the Purgatory setting. They probably felt they couldn't do the latter because it was supposed to be a mysterious surprise reveal, however they DID set the stage for the alt/Purgatory reality arguably the end of LAST season, and actually revealed it to US the beginning of THIS season.Still, I see your gripes. At this point I've kind of come to terms with the series and still like it, but am interested to see how it holds up going through and watching it again to see if there are ANY clues to how it was going to end early on (I mean, they've said they knew this was how it was going to end from the beginning, which is questionable as far as the Purgatory ending, and they've been planning this for a little while, so there might be SOMETHING), and just curious to see if/when they reveal any further clues, reveals, or whatever down the road. But for now, I've accepted that's their story, we've seen how they got there, it was a good ride, I've still got some issues, I still quite like the show, and am more inclined to remember their "real life" actions & sacrifices, while enjoying their "alt reality/afterlife" chances to say goodbye and reunite with their closest friends & lovers, even if it's not quite what I would have chosen if they had asked me. But I'm also ready to move on.-Cheers -
May 26, 2010 8:02:30 AM CDT
"[The]emotional payoff . . . could have [been] done other ways"
by dave i
To quote Thunderbolt Ross . . ."The fault for me is not that they did too little but that they did too much. There just was no reason to add the limbo concept aside from emotional payoff which I'm sure they could have done other ways, clever men and women that they are."I've come to grips with the Limbo reality, but yeah, they could have done it other ways and it might have gone over a lot smoother but still had an emotional impact. However, I did like the reunions and the remembering parts. Those WERE great, even if you hated the means they chose to include them. I'm not sure what would be a better way to have that alt-reality, or if they should have just not had that at all.-Cheers
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I think the problem is it just doesn't seem like part of their story. The alt reality seems superfluous. I accept that I may be missing something vis a vis the bomb. Though in fact if Christian hadn't said what he said I might even be cool just assuming, well they detonated the bomb and I guess this is what happened. But he had to go and say that thing about all of them creating it. Of course I understand the happy ending bit too. I don't begrudge them that per se. I guess I'm just saying again what I was saying: There's not enough there to make it work. As far as them knowing how it was going to end I think that's largely bullshit. They knew Jack's eye was going to close, that he would die. I don't know if that really qualifies as knowing the ending, just as George Lucas had a half a page of historical context for Star Wars; that doesn't mean he had the prequels all planned out. Also they originally lobbied after the third season to have just two more, but it came out to be three. A gimmick for each - flashforward, time-travel, limbo - so one of these must not have been planned. It seems to me limbo felt the most tacked-on ... I would guess they never planned this aspect of the show till mid season 3 at the earliest. It's kind of ironic... the show initially really was all about the characters. I remember distinctly feeling that in S1 where there was no mythology to speak of. But I think it changed after S3, and rightfully so. But by the end they snap it back violently. I still don't know why. I do believe they were trying to assert their viewpoint, but not their story if that makes sense. But the motivation almost doesn't matter. It just doesn't quite work. I reserve the right to change my mind though!
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I really did like the alt reality all season. I loved what happened in it in the last episode. I just think how it squares with the rest of the show is inadequate given the weight it ultimately carried.
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Dave I I think I agree with your point that there are a lot more answers than some people think there are! But if we write a list of significant questions, we find that some were answered (usually in a fairly vague way, but fine)- some we just don't.
Thunderbolt Ross: fair enough point about the moniker of 'apologists'. I did use 'quotes' in the main body of my post to suggest that I didn't fully agree with the use of terminology, and you're absolutely right that I don't want to be thought of as a 'hater'- I loved this show, for the most part. So you're right, not very helpful labels there. I also agree that there was some resolution of the island plot- and I enjoyed a lot of it. It's just that these elements of resolution were to the plot that had built momentum in season 6, without providing any real indication of how that plot related to the events and mysteries of previous seasons. -
You pathetic little douchebag.
your such a small and insignifigant turd blossom that instead of looking at the answers I have provided for your inept ass, you have to comment on my spelling? What a pathetic little fuck you are. Thats how you know someone on the internet is small and insignifigent.
They have nothing of merit to offer so they have to pick something else apaart in order to feel superior.
Well for your information buddy, I wrote that entire post, all 4oo words in just a couple of minutes.
I was more concerned with the lag on this site than my spell check.
But I hope you feel good about yourself for not having anything to really offer.
douchebag. -
Most of the mysteries that went unanswered were things that at the time seemed intriguing but which to me were superseded by larger questions. I kind of see the "smaller" questions - many in that humorous video linked above - as a kind of tapestry of confusion, a basic part of the existential aspect of the show. As I've mentioned elsewhere the fact that some of these type of questions WERE answered, and each time the answer was never as compelling as the question (how could it be) made me relax on that front.Think about it: The polar bear was a big WTF. It seemed important. But ultimately it wasn't. It only seemed important cause we DIDN'T KNOW. So I suspect with lots of these other questions, it's the same thing. They could answer ever yone and no-one would care. The answers wouldn't be important to the rest of the show, to our understanding of the show, it would just be a scratch to that itch. "Oh so THAT'S why they couldn't have babies ... What's for dinner?"Conversely it might actually be destructive to the mystique and sense of confusion and powerlessness Lost often thrives on. So I say let them have their minor mysteries. I now know enough about the island, Jacob, the smoke monster, the Dharma Initiative and the island.I just don't know why I know ANYTHING about a post-life waiting room mysteriously created so the characters can meet up before going "into the light". I did not need that to convince me the characters were the engine of the show.
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One thing that I actually think is neither small enough to let go of, nor big enough to feel like it MUST be answered is what exactly happened when MIB went into the cave and the smoke monster came out, leaving MIB seemingly dead. This sis the kind of ponder it forever thing that I think is fun to have been left open-ended. Personally I see it as that was the creation of the black smoke, not that it was already in there. The Mother said whatever was in the cave was benign, to be protected, not guarded against. But it's not something you can actually go touch, it's too powerful. So MIB going down there created a kind of hybrid in the smoke monster, a piece of that light given semi-physical form and the consciousness of the man who unfortunately interfaced with it. Still not sure about the fact that the smoke monster seemingly had an actual role on the island - "it's a security system" - that went beyond just being a pissed off monster.
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One thing that I actually think is neither small enough to let go of, nor big enough to feel like it MUST be answered is what exactly happened when MIB went into the cave and the smoke monster came out, leaving MIB seemingly dead. This sis the kind of ponder it forever thing that I think is fun to have been left open-ended. Personally I see it as that was the creation of the black smoke, not that it was already in there. The Mother said whatever was in the cave was benign, to be protected, not guarded against. But it's not something you can actually go touch, it's too powerful. So MIB going down there created a kind of hybrid in the smoke monster, a piece of that light given semi-physical form and the consciousness of the man who unfortunately interfaced with it. Still not sure about the fact that the smoke monster seemingly had an actual role on the island - "it's a security system" - that went beyond just being a pissed off monster.
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One thing that I actually think is neither small enough to let go of, nor big enough to feel like it MUST be answered is what exactly happened when MIB went into the cave and the smoke monster came out, leaving MIB seemingly dead. This sis the kind of ponder it forever thing that I think is fun to have been left open-ended. Personally I see it as that was the creation of the black smoke, not that it was already in there. The Mother said whatever was in the cave was benign, to be protected, not guarded against. But it's not something you can actually go touch, it's too powerful. So MIB going down there created a kind of hybrid in the smoke monster, a piece of that light given semi-physical form and the consciousness of the man who unfortunately interfaced with it. Still not sure about the fact that the smoke monster seemingly had an actual role on the island - "it's a security system" - that went beyond just being a pissed off monster.
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I'm innocent
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For what it's worth, as far as the unanswered questions, I think some of those unanswered questions might bother me more upon rewatching them. I haven't gone back and rewatched the whole series, so some of the mysteries I just kind of compartmentalized and forgot or just kind of thought "they'll answer that later" OR "I'll figure it out." I didn't rewatch it though because I kind of wanted to know where they ended up and then see how well they made it all fit.When it's fresh in my mind about the Polar Bears and Locke seeing the Smoke Monster and looking enraptured and Mr. Eko's encounter with Smoke Monster (a.k.a. Samuel), and the cabin with Jacob(?), and the ashes, if I get through the series with that fresh in my mind and I don't notice any "Easter eggs" that make it make sense, AND if the commentary a/o unaired/cut footage doesn't give me hints to make that seem logical, I'll probably be kind of annoyed. Maybe I've been erroneously assuming there'd be SOMETHING, somewhere that would make it all fit together. Kind of like the statue's four toes being because it's Taweret (hippo goddess) and hippos having four toes. I mean, they had to have had most planned out or at least gotten it from somewhere.I guess I've been in "wait and see mode" for six years, AND enjoyed the ride enough to overlook those questions & unsolved mysteries, all for so long that's become my default mode. So I'll see what I can figure out on my own, create my own theories about based on what seem to be intentionally open-to-interpretation stuff, and what might leave me feeling a bit lacking.-Cheers
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Boone & Locke = Gay lovers? Everyone else in the church was paired up except these two jungle-mates.
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"I just don't know why I know ANYTHING about a post-life waiting room mysteriously created so the characters can meet up before going "into the light". I did not need that to convince me the characters were the engine of the show."I just have guesses. I think as a show that had the Man of Science/Man of Faith thing going on, and Jack ultimately going from one to the other, the Spiritual end kind of made sense while also allowing for an Occurrence at Owl Creek scenario where possible to view it as really Jack's dying mind creating what he wants to happen, even going so far as to imagine what happened to everybody else. This does kind of explain most of the people who were in the church as they were largely the ones he was closest with or had the most contact with. I do not actually believe that's what "really happened" but the more I thought about it the more I liked how they set it up for that kind of an interpretation.Another theory I heard on this talkback or the other LOST one was that it was Hugo using his powers as Jacob to somehow facilitate getting them together as a final send off. That is also an interesting theory.I guess I interpreted it as they were kind of drawn together based on whatever happened to them on the Island. That said, I ALSO like the fact that if you think of the Limbo-reality as occurring in Jack's mind you are left with a great story disregarding the Sideways Flashes from a plot perspective, as if you edit all of that out it was a GREAT story, while also given a nice Jacob's Ladder/Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge scenario that ends up being about letting go of life (I love those two stories).I think I'm agreeing with you when I say, it would have been nice if the alt-reality had really been a different timeline of redemption where they could become who they wanted to be, live the lives they wanted, and the end of the show was them somehow getting there and remembering the Island timeline. If I'm being totally honest, THAT is the story I wanted. I think I liked what they did better than a lot of people, but the more I think of it the more I'd rather they left any afterlife scenario to the minds of fans. I think what I've really discovered thinking about the show is if they'd had it where the alt-reality was where they ended up, the Island timeline was where they were and was all about them getting there, and they were able to remember the Island timeline and live their lives with that knowledge and have a Carpe Diem revelation, THAT would have been my preference. The more I think about it, that would be my STRONG preference. They could be drawn together to meet and then part ways to live their lives, while keeping in touch, and leaving us to write how their lives would end up.Of course, this realization on my part makes me feel a bit more dissatisfied with the ending of the show since, as you pointed out (directly or not) the side-flashes are the first time we had flashes that weren't actually about their real lives, but about something they hadn't really set the rules for. I'm just realizing this right now as I type this, but that seems to be the most sensible ending, and I think that's why when Christian wasn't in the coffin and they went the afterlife route I was jarred and it derailed from where the show seemed to be going.Actually, you know what? That is really going to piss me off because that ending fits in with how the show was structured, it gives (to me at least) the most satisfying ending, and it goes in line with Faraday's science and what he said would happen when they detonated Jughead.Can I just pretend that's what really happened? If so, ALL of my problems with the show's ending kind of melt away. @#$%!-Prost
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The funny thing is that the finale for Legend of the Seeker was better than both BSG and Lost. Too bad it doesn't get attention on AICN.
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...was originally a security system and they changed their minds about it.
It makes distinct whirring/mechanical noises and there's tiny flashes of what appears to be artificial light inside.
If I remember correctly (and I'm sure someone will set me right if I'm wrong) Lock saw what the Black Smoke was in Season 1, although the audience did not. From that point on Lock seemed to understand exactly what the Island was.
I'll bet my AssBaseBallCap it was originally in the script as a man-made (probably from the Dharma guys) security system that went amok and they changed it after season 1. -
Now that was a satisfying finale.
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They definitely copped out of providing real answers, but overall I enjoyed the ending. I think they just got a little too messy with their storytelling throughout the series, and so they had too many loose ends that made no sense and there wasn't anything they could do to fix that. There was no "master plan" to their plotting. Just broad brushstrokes that they tried to turn into a story.
The smoke monster never made any sense really. Mechanical noises and chains? But it's a spirit?
The rest of the questions we had could have been answered, but their answers wouldn't be very important. What was the island? Why did Jacob create such odd "rules." How did his power work. Etc... all of those you can make up any half-assed answer and it's not going to add much to the story I don't think. -
To be fair the only person who said it was a security system was an insane person. But I agree they probably had a different idea at that point. Maybe nanobots hahaha
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May 26, 2010 9:44:09 AM CDT
Why can't the monster get you if you're in a thicket of trees
by thunderbolt ross
That's my question for the moment
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So was Christian Shepherd smokey the entire time or was he something else? If he was smokey, how did he appear in the cabin before the ash was broken? If he was something else... why was he something else? Hm?
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May 26, 2010 10:13:23 AM CDT
(And yes, I changed my name...)
by ooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuutttttlllllaaaaa
(The last one wasn't "outlaw" enough.) Now I'm an OOOUTLLLAWW!
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VALID RESPONSES TO LOST
* loved it and were 100% satisfied by the finale
* were frustrated because of some ambiguous mythology
* hated it because you would have preferred they focus more on the mysteries of the island rather than neat and tidy happy endings for the characters
Liking or not liking the show are all based on a person's personal preferences, and therefore in reasonable cases are both completely acceptable.
INVALID RESPONSES TO LOST
* thinks the show sucks because they didn't explain why the statue only had four toes or who was shooting at them during the time-jumps
* thinks the show sucks because they obviously made it all up as they were going
* thinks the show sucks because having the whole show be a hallucination inside Jack's head is stupid
* thinks the show sucks because they DIDN'T ANSWER ANYTHING!!!!
your dissatisfaction nit-picky, unimportant minutiae and the failure of the show to match your off-base predictions and specious interpretations says way more about you than the quality of the show. -
At it's heart, Lost was a mystery show with great characters. You can't go "all character" and forget about the mystery. The minutiae is part of the mystery. Ignoring the minutiae undercuts the mystery, which undercuts the show. You can get to the end of the show without explaining every single point, but for every single one they skip over, a little more of the soul of the show is eaten away. The problem with the way Lost ended, was that there was a mountain of minutiae never explained at all.
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Any single piece of minutiae can be overlooked (almost by definition). The problem is that when you gather all of those pieces and take a step back, all you see is nothing but one one giant mess. This is why it's a valid response to Lost.
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behind memorable shows like The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Star Trek: The Next Generation and even Mr. Belvedere
http://tinyurl.com/yjdjajj
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Cause that's what it was. The major mysteries were explained. Many minor ones were, but not all. The explained mysteries were never as compelling as the question and in fact most people forgot all about them once they were explained. Not knowing something is not a good reason to need it explained. Only if the answer is key to the plot and overall themes of the show. For instance if they couldn't have babies, it doesn't really matter exactly, biologically why. The island was full of crazy energy and fuckin' atom bombs. I don't need a scientific explanation as to exactly what the problem was.
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They were twins yet the actors look like they are about 15 years apart in age. I honestly don't think that as recently as the season 5 finale that they knew what their backstory was. Even one of the writers said in Wired recently that they enjoy writing themselves into a corner and trying to get out of it. I used to make excused for the show but I'm reluctantly in the "6 years of bullshit" camp now.
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watched the ALF finale than the Lost finale.
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Who cares? LOST was ALWAYS going to be a niche show, it lost viewers along the way just by nature of it being a six-year episodic show, and once it started actually answering questions it was bound to lose viewers that wanted something else.I'm not inclined to think what's most popular is necessarily the best. If you are, then may I gladly point out that Grey's Anatomy and Desperate Housewives and similar fare garner more viewers than 24, Justified, and any other show this site discusses that you (or anybody else likely to be interested in this show) have shown an interest in?-Cheers
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lost is shit and no one cares. the end.
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i loved the finale, despite its patent failure to answer some of the bigger questions raised by its mythology.
but christian's explanation that 'you all created this place' bugged me, because it seemed to invite a simplistic psychobabble explanation.
thinking about it, though, i like the resolution a lot more. it all comes down to two things: (i) jughead and (ii) the island as a magic box.
the survivors 'created' the sideways universe because they detonated jughead at the energy point at the swan station, with the intention of creating a world in which 815 never crashed. and the Island, in its capacity as a magic box, essentially gave them what they asked for: an alternate timeline that allowed the survivors to reexperience their lives without the Island/offered a degree of wish fulfillment.
think of it as the magic box nuclear powered... -
Fail.-Cheers
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Lostboy: by that Logic, American Idol is the best show ever and 24, BSG, Lost, etc all suck because they pulled down less in the ratings and even though LOST had a 5.6 share, you're right, nobody cared.
newc: dude, we've been over this already... -
as a spectacular event, unparalleled in recent television history. yet it is not. it is a lame duck.more people watched the finale of JAG for fuck sake.
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to all the true lost fans that were moved by the finale what are your favoite finale scenes, everyone else keeps talking shit so I say fuck them lost was great every season it was building up to jacks heriosm and im sad to thnk that there will not be anything like it
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What if there's purgatory after we die where Drive Shaft hires exposition explainer extraordinaire Daniel Faraday on piano and rocks the afterlife house and all our Losties get to hang out together after they die? What kind of occupations will our Losties have in the afterlife? You know, all important questions to a show about plane crash survivors on a mysterious island.
Yeah, great fucking finale. Just what the show needed... -
...the unparalleled and unprecedented part of LOST had more to do the epic scope of the storytelling and the ability to sustain a single story for 6 straight years.
Based on your previous comments I know you're pretty likely to dismiss anything positive said about the show as apologist drivel, but to most of us, LOST was definitely unparalleled and unprecedented, and we didn't need the highest viewer total to validate our opinions.
Again, are you saying that a new Radiohead album not selling as much as a Hannah Montana CD means that Radiohead is a lame duck? Specious logic. Specious, I say!! -
released an album and self promoted it as the greatest album of our lifetime and everyone involved in it said the same thing, then it less copies than a hannah montana album then it would be fail. it would be LOST!
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Was the M*A*S*H season finale. Which was horrible. Seinfeld got 90 million people, and it was bad.I could never see the MASH finale again, and it would be too soon. So, it's not all about the ratings.
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'...the unparalleled and unprecedented part of LOST had more to do the epic scope of the storytelling and the ability to sustain a single story for 6 straight years.'Married With Children sustained a single story for 10 years. Guiding Light sustained a single story for 57 years!!! epic? more like convoluted
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...the shows themselves have very little to do with how they are publicized by their networks. I remember the people at 'ER' always used to complain about this. They'd just do their thing, and NBC would push every fucking episode as "this is the episode that changes EVERYTHING!!", and 'ER' would be all like, "no, its just the next part of the story." NBC used that line so much, it stopped having any meaning.
Similar to how ABC finally admitted those closing shots of the wreckage were added by the network as a softer way to transition into the 10:00 programing. Cuse and Lindeloff probably would not have signed off on that had they known about it, because all it did was confuse some of the less attentive viewers into thinking it was some important story point.
So don't blame LOST for the network's hyperbolic attempts to get more people to watch their show. -
No name? Just like the poor brother on Lost. No, I thought the Sopranos ending SEEMED very clear, the cut to black, how they would always say a hit would happen and you wouldn't even see it coming, etc. Only problem is after that when people were like, "what happened to Tony" the creator was all "I want to leave that open to interpretation." If he was killed, fucking say so. So yeah, it sure seemed like it was a hit, but it's open to interpretation. As for Lost, that answer about Adam and Eve in the Cave came with like 2 or 3 episodes to go in the season. They could have been giving answers to those types of questions all season long, but they did not.
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MIB's name was Samuel. letdown huh?
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So I am assuming you think AVATAR is the best movie of all-time, right? Followed by the 2nd best, TITANIC? Obviously those are both far better movies than, say, DISTRICT 9 or THE ROAD, which didn't make nearly as much and were thus each a "fail". The logic is sound.
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sorry dude, i was under the impression that this here was a discusssion thread. forgive me if i ain't got time to keep track of your holy writ.
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DISTRICT 9 and THE ROAD both sucked. district 9 sucked real real bad.
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LOL. Ok. Although you didn't answer my question about AVATAR being the best movie ever. Not that I give a shit what you think, since you're a sad, retarded troll.
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That sold nothing, but was still a great piece of music in line with the quality of everything else they've put out, I would not consider that a failure. Not even close.-Cheers
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it seems you missed my point entirely. instead of spelling it out for you in terms a retard can understand i will simply call you clownshoes and be on my way.clownshoes
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http://tinyurl.com/36qzjxwI'm going to miss that crazy site.-Cheers
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May 26, 2010 12:37:48 PM CDT
The giant statue, ancient symbols, this and that around the "sou
by thunderbolt ross
These aren't really questions for me. One of the things Across the Sea did was establish that this shit has been going on a long time. Since forever. I don't think telling the story of the Egyptians or whomever once guarded the island would add much to that idea. Might be a fun story but just finding out "oh a bunch of people were there - again - and shenanigans ensued" wouldn't be that revelatory at all
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well, by 'sustained a story', I mean one long story with a clear beginning, middle and end, not 10 years of male chauvinest jokes and twisty-and-turny soap opera bullshit, which, you know, really is made up as it goes.
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he's just asking if you actually agree that "Avatar" is the best movie ever since it make the most money, and "Star Wars" was an epic fail because it didn't make as much. Which, by your logic, you should whole-heartedly agree with.
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One question - how?
What other show ends with the hero's suicide?!? And how was it all a dream? You need to watch Ashes to Ashes, because that's where it really ends.
Oh, and explains it all *fantastically* well. Not like poxy Lost, abandoning plot for feel-good - yes, that's what they did... -
i think you got lost and married with children mixed up there. are you saying lost is a long story with a clear beginning, middle and end which didnt make it up as it went along? surely not
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Based solely upon the ending of Life On Mars, I came away with it was all a dream at best, still unexplained at worst. Yeah, he killed himself. Not sure how that elevates the material.
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...Ah, its becoming clear. You're one of those people who doesn't have a cogent thought about anything, and choose to 'argue' by shitting on your hand and smearing it on other people's stuff.
Let me know when you want to have a logical discussion and we'll talk. I think not liking LOST is valid...be clear about why you don't like it and drop the goofy double-talk and snarky and ambiguous condescention, and you can be a part of the discussion. -
Do you really believe that the creators did not change course over the course of the series? The writers have admitted they did not know how it was going to end until at least midway through the first season and they clearly abruptly changed course a couple times. It's legitimate to say you were satisfied with the ending. To say that it was one six year story is a bit of a stretch. It certainly could have been a lot tighter.
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I did not like the ending of the show, and perhaps I missed something. Did Flock (after 2000 years) stop wanting to get off the island and I fell asleep?
What stopped o nameless one from turning into angry death cloud and killing them all after Sawyer reviled that they were not candidates anymore?
Why was Flock's final answer to just wait and see how things played out with Jack? Why did we not even GET TO SEE the smoke monster in all his glory in the finale at all?
At this point, I just wanna know why the bad guy turned out to have smoke for brains, and I'll let it rest. Lost was a good show, had some genius episodes. -
Sorry, dude. I got a little touchy. That was a looong conversation we had yesterday, and you tore open a raw wound!!!
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...that the original Life on Mars was supposed to be three seasons, not two? As such, it was truncated but immediately bridges to Ashes to Ashes? (The psychologist mentioned in the finale of Mars is the main protagonist of Ashes).
If you haven't seen Ashes to Ashes, you don't *really* know how Life on Mars really ends? -
thank you for a valid point.
I don't think they had the entire six years mapped out beat for beat, no. But I do think there was a big picture: Island as supernatural place and battleground for embodiment of good and evil. I also think that the Losties exploring this place and the themes associated with that battle (fate, free will, deception, etc) would be a backdrop for exploring the characters themselves. Further, I think that it was intended all along that various groups that have inhabited the island (The Others, Dharma, Egyptians, etc.) would have left strange and cryptic remains, and that as appropriate, some of their stories would be told to, particularly the Dharma and Others stuff, since either they or their artifacts were left all over the island.
Do I think that every little detail of things like Ben and Dharma in the 70s and the storylines of the Tailies were part of the original master plan? Not even close. Further, I think having the show play out with no definitive enddate made it troublesome to fill in a lot of those details, and they moved things forward in fits and starts to stall when necessary. When they got an end date, of course they could start planning some new stuff, but that new stuff was a means to get to the ultimate end goal of the master plan: having the world saved from evil, and having Jack die in the same exact spot where he awoke after the crash.
To summarize: I think they had a macroplan from the beginning (the battle between good and evil; Others as island protectors; Dharma as unwitting interlopers; the theme of analyzing characters via revelatory flashbacks, etc.) but had to make up the microplan as they went along. -
Why does the power of the one extend beyond the Matrix? "Coz it does." "Why am I here?" "You already know why you're here." "What am I supposed to do?" "But you already know what you're supposed to do." Lost Season 1-4 = Matrix 1+2. Lost 5 and 6 = Matrix 3. Was it a show about the characters? Of course. Was half of what made the show great also the mythology? Absolutely. To throw away half of what made the show work, and then toss in a "It really was all about the characters!" at the end reeks of indecision or having no idea how to end it. If the show was truly all about the characters, set the show in Kentucky and have them all interact with each other without any mythology and rely on good acting and good scripting to make us care about the characters, not cheap gimmicks that you're eventually going to discard... Oh wait, that show is called Justified.
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I'm a theater teacher and do film projects with my advanced students ever year. It is very common for the class to come up with broad strokes of their story idea, for example, "Nature Club gets lost in the woods". We plot out the beginning (how do they get lost?), sort of plan the middle (what types of adventures do they have once their lost?), and an end (how do they get found?). Once we're in the woods ready to film, we take some of the rough ideas about what happens to them once their lost and merge those with conditions in our setting (hey, there's a creek over here! What can we do with the creek?) and kind of let some specific ideas happen, then film them.
Did I know when we started that we'd film a scene with someone trying to cross a creek but then getting swept away by the current? No, because I didn't know we'd have a creek to incorporate into the story. But to say we didn't have a plan when we went into the forest is false.
The creek for the LOST producers were things like Adawale wanting out of the show, Michael Emerson being a fan favorite and needing a bigger part, everybody hating Nikki and Paulo, not knowing when the show was going to end, etc...Yes there was a lot of improvisational planning, but it was all planning within the context of getting things to make sense within the master plan. Its Again, its disingenuous to say they had to plan, because obviously they did. -
...watched the Collegehumour video at the top of this talkback?!?
I mean, it PERFECTLY sums up everything! -
Too many posts in too little time. My rate of typo is catching up to me.
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It's easy to ask a question. Its far more difficult (apparently) to reflect and realize that a lot of those questions actually have answers.
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Do it, man!
Answer each of the questions in turn. I'd LOVE to see you even try. -
Seeing as you're talking about reflection, and speaking as if you're an intellectual, are you familiar with the term 'denouement'?
It was a TV show that didn't really explain a thing, and by the by, I reflected on it for SIX years. -
...also, there was a dude in here yesterday, DeanCubed, who actually posted his personal email address so people could email them all the supposed 'unanswered questions' because in his mind (and in mine) a lot of the questions WERE answered.
Yes, there's nit-picky stuff like why the statue has four toes that probably doesn't have an answer, but shit like that doesn't really need an answer. So there will inevitably be some debate about what questions should be classified as 'irrelevant' and 'relevant', but if you have any specific questions, go ahead and ask a few at a time, and me or DeanCubed will give you our take. -
What a crock of shit. The journey of the characters and the plot should go HAND IN HAND. Having the happy FS waiting room ending that had NOTHING to do with the STORY we've been watching for six seasons is bullshit. Why can't people just admit that Darlton copped out? Even if you're happy with the way the show ended, you have to know that they fucked us over on the STORY.
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...Dude, the entire flash-sideways was the denouement!!
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I am familiar with the term, and LOST absolutely provided denouement. You might have thought it was wholly unsatisfying, which is certainly an opinion that you are entitled to, but to say there was none is simply incorrect. Denouement does not, by definition, have to "resolve" anything. It is simply the part of the story that follows the climax, and is intended to provide emotional catharsis for the viewer/reader. Certainly in many linear stories, the denouement wraps up all the loose ends and provides a tidy ending, but there is no "rule" that says it has to. All it "has to" do is provide a mechanism for the reader/viewer to come down from the emotional high generated by a successful climax.
The climax of the finale was Jack plugging the hole and the plane escaping. So I would argue that the church sequence in limbo-verse serves as a perfectly viable denouement. It might not be the kind of end you were hoping for, but it is an end. It's not like Jack plugged the hole and then *poom* LOST. -
Max, I see you are still here trying to help those who are still wetting themselves about the finale.. You have the patience of a saint... PERSONAL OPINION: Maxwell's Hammer and DeanCubed have pretty much nailed the writes intent with the Finale in their answers.. I agree with their perspective on what happened in the show...
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I think I saw it in here, but I heard a rumor that Darlton will be addressing some of the unanswered questions in a DVD bonus feature on the 6th season set.. Could be a ruse to get you shell out some dough, but I imagine they have us already.
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Once you accept that the entire time was all in Jack's mind. From the time the plane crashed until his death in real time was only about three to five minutes, that's why the first episode and the last book end the way they do. The inaccuracies of the island weren't goofs by the writers, they were genius ways to convey that his fantasy kept playing out to it's end and then he would have to imagine something else to keep his mind focused on, instead of his own loss of mortality. Notice especially his relationship with Locke, and how in the end he accepts that Locke was correct in his spiritual view. Notice how he projected Locke twice as his antagonist, first as the real Locke, then as The Smoke Monster. This was done by chance. The Smoke monster by the way was his subconscious manifesting the smoke from the plane into a real threat he could spare with.
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Half the fun of LOST was sitting down with people and debating what it all meant. This is a good place to do that, and with the exception of a few shit-crackers, most of the negative people in here have eventually gotten around to a civil debate of specific things, even if they aren't pursuaded to share my opinion.
It's been moderately gratifying, and a good mental workout piecing together all the various LOST clues to make various points. -
If you can't listen to reason, then at least listen to the fevered rantings of Dancingforver.. It is the only
solution that will pull you down off the ledge and allow you sleep at night. So just swallow the bitter pill and release the anger.
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...still dancing around, but not actually making physical contact with, logic, I see.
Nothing on the show makes any sense if its inside Jack's head. See all the hundreds of above posts from DeanCubed and I and many others for our exhaustive supply of evidence of this interpretation. -
Actually a character journey would be more appropriate. WHile the visual embodiment of the people Jack imagined would be the same as they were before the crash, who they were in his private mortality journey would be more in tune with metaphysical projections of his emotions. Sawyer was his ID. Kate, represented love and lust. Sayid was the killer instinct we all have. Hurley his hunger. When he was able to bring all these emotions/projections together at the end in the church, it was actual him coming to peace with himself.
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I wish I had more time to dive into the debate instead of hanging around on the edges, as you are right it is definitly fun and exercises the mind.. especially now that our beloved LOST is gone.. All we have left is to discuss it.
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Almost as fun as watching Jack and Locke fight it out.. Jack (Science) and Locke (Faith).. Except in this case it is Maxwell (Reason) and DancingForever (Imagination), although some may claim the following: Maxwell (Heavy Handed Pragmatist) and DancingForever (Stoned Lunatic).. In either case.. I love to watch the debate.
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HA!! Awesome DancingForever.. You may be as crazy as a jaybird, but you do make me laugh.
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May 26, 2010 2:36:58 PM CDT
How the FUCK can you say they copped out on the story?
by thunderbolt ross
Especially if you think the alt reality is superfluous. Let's say it is. Ignore it. Now how did they cop out on story exactly? The struggle - this iteration between Jacob and MIB - for the island was resolved. All the characters either died or got off the island. the end. What, do you want to follow every single character till they take their dying breath? The "story" - such as it was in a six season, very episodic structure if you can even call it that - ended, and ended very straightforwardly too. Gripe about the twist ending to the alt reality if you must but they didn't abandon the story in favor of it.
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...implies give and take. DeanCubed and I give firmly rooted and probable ideas, and DancingForever snorts heroine or something. So if by 'take', you mean 'takes illigal narcotics', I guess this has indeed been a fine debate.
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Dancingforever - Honestly, you really think that? In that case, the flash sideways was double BS, as it was a double fantasy (occuring concurrently, apparently).
GeneralJack, I appreciate what you're saying, but this show was sold on its mysteries AND the characters; not one or the other, but BOTH. Hell, look at the promo for the complete series boxset - "ALL THE MYSTERIES WILL BE REVEALED". Not "Jack and all the characters will be happy!"
All of this talk of emotion and character involvement is well and good, but I've got that from 2-3 hour movies, that didn't fill me with intrigue and then pull the rug away. Sure, there's 'nit-picky' stuff (like the four toed statue) but then there's the two (ish) seasons wasted on time travel; that aspect added NOTHING to the overall show!
What the Collegehumour video does (like a lot of brilliant satire) is to point out the shortcomings of something - Lost was the 'Emperor's New Clothes' for the MTV generation. If the "marvellous" denouement/conclusion is that "all the characters are to be happy at the credits" then shit, The GetAlong Gang was a masterpiece, YEARS ahead of its time! -
Its not Heroine.. Its heavy amounts of Cannibus.. We covered this already!!
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when your running around the woods being a sex offender and pretending to make a movie do you ever think how much a better place the world would be if you simply died?
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All The Mysteries Will Be Revealed was ABC Promo stuff.. Darlton were the ones who decided to focus on the characters and rape the Athiests with their ending
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Dude, are you feeling alright?
Offensive much? Jeez... -
...in "The GetAlong Gang" when Woolma Lamb was attacked by a polar bear and Zipper Cat and Mongomery Good News Moose fought it out for the love of Dotty Dog. And don't even get me started on the subtle nuanced characterization of that deceitful bastard, Bingo Beaver. Sheer brilliance.
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i vote for your theory. would be nice if it were the real story but i suspect Darlton doesnt have the skill or ability to come up with something like that
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Referring to a long running thread from here yesterday. The athiests were in here yesterday and very upset.
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you are an asshat.
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The ALT U seen in season 6 was manifested as Jack finally started to let go and accept his own death, with a clean mind and peaceful soul. As the island fantasy wore down, and his mind was no longer able to facilitate it, the real transition for him to go to "Heaven/Nirvana/Take your pick" started to happen. That's why these psychological realities existed in unison. At first I though they were non linear, but now I understand they were in fact linear. His mind's journey through the imaginary settings of the island let his soul move on. What his father said was just, what happened on the island was real, but what he meant by "real" was the salvation of Jack's soul. He did find redemption and peace, and earned his place in eternity. Lost is probably the most psychologically challenging thing for a viewer to endure as it's totally unique. Also as people criticize the inaccuracies of the story, one must realize the writers made these in accuracies on purpose to show his mind "resenting", as happened at the end of season five.
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The light on the island, and the light in the church are the same
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God had nothing to do with the ending, and atheists, like myself, simply do not believe in God. I have no thoughts or opinion on a possible afterlife, or what might happen after you die. I have no reason to think that our consciousness might not somehow enter another plane of existence after our physical body dies. Or maybe it all just goes black and we don't know that, because we're dead. Either way, this atheist doesn't feel raped by the metaphysical ending.
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...oo! oo! Now do a femenist interpretation! It'll be good practice to the intro 'Literary Interpretation' class you're apparently taking.
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Dude are you feeling alright? Offensive Much? Jeez...
and don't reply.. "Seriously I'm not name calling, he really does wear an ass for a hat." That was brilliant, but don't replly it. -
May 26, 2010 2:51:18 PM CDT
maxwell's hammer - thought that kind of stuff was 'nit-picking'?
by irishraidersfan
Think we're seeing your true colours now.
So, Lost *is* good because of the polar bears etc? The intrigue? That ultimately isn't particularly explained?
Don't even get me started on the 'love' story - yeah, Jack loved Kate so much, in the flash sideways he married her and had a kid! No, wait, he married JULIET. Sayid was so in love with Nadia. So, he bangs Boone's sister for a wee bit, and spends eternity/church time with HER?
Awful, heavy handed trash. -
I can respect your position.. I actually just posted to see if you Athiests guys were still following the thread, so irishraidersfan doesn't think I'm just nuts.
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Maybe you've already answered this; I know this debate has been going on a couple of days. But Maxwell brought up a great point. If the whole series was inside Jack's head, why do we get scenes and story lines that do not involve him at all? Why did Christian say that Jack spent the most important time of his life with the Losties? Where did he meet them if not on the island in his real life?
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Irishraidersfan, think you missed something here.. This was Jack's Flashsideways/purgatory whatever.. He was moving on.. Everything that happened there just brought them together, doesn't necessarily mean they are spending eternity together.. That just wouldn't be practical... Like for example everbodies moms and dads weren't there.. Even those with daddy/mommy issuess.. Think Practically People, too much to cover in 2 and 1/2 hours..
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I avoided feedback the last few days, I wanted a couple of days to let it soak in. By Monday afternoon a second wave of WTF hit some media like msnbc.com, my favorite title was "Hey, Lost! What about the Numbers?" LOL!
True, the numbers weren't addressed at all in the finale. By the time Jacob's story was broadcast I had a feeling that a lot of questions were not going to get answers. If that was fair or not, I don't know. It never DID explain a lot, part of the beauty was the mystery.
The church scene was interesting, it included the past, present, and future deaths of the core group of characters. They certainly could have used more characters in the pews. It's too bad some actors held out for money, if that's true. At least having core characters plus a couple of old favorites like Boone was nice. I chuckled a little at Boone's black "Vampire Diaries" hair, but I'm glad he came. The island's first death and the most traumatic scene for me the first year.
Shannon, although she became likeable enough, seemed to be there mostly because she was Sayid's love interest on the island. It seemed a little wierd Nadia wasn't there instead, but it was nice to see Shannon.
A significant amount of the show was about romantic reunion.
That was a pretty difficult scene between Sawyer and Juliet at the candy bar machine, going from polite strangers lovers who had embraced as Juliet died, and I liked it very much.
I'll probably find out someday what little touches like the tennis shoe on the tree at the end was about, or maybe I'll remember.
A couple of fans guessed correctly, that Jack would be only an interim guardian of the island and Hugo would inherit the mantle. I loved that Ben stayed to help him, as well as stayed outside because he, like Ana Lucia, had more spiritual evolving to do. Another theory was that the climax would involve Jack and his father. I was afraid that I'd be bawling if and when Sawyer, Kate, or Jack died, but the only time I had a couple of tears was when Jack fell into his dad's comforting arms when he realized that [Jack] had died. From the beginning, Christian had been alternately frightening (like in the hospital lobby at night), emotionless, mysterious, and in his flashbacks, tortured in a way functional alcoholism seems to be. But in the last year or so, Christian was starting to be more sympathetic and Jack was the petulant one. I really loved how he opened the church doors and that 'light' close-death survivors talk about filled the room.
Jack was always my favorite character. It was strange to watch him in the bottom of the dried up waterfall. I was afraid that would be the last frame of Island Jack I'd see. But, he made it out the other side and was able to hobble over to the bamboo grove before he laid down to die. I liked Vincent coming out to sit with him while he died. Jack was able to see he Did help some off the island. So although I had to watch my favorite character die, it was a little sad, but it was also comforting that his last act was what Jack usually did, try to save people. It was a good closure to the series. -
Now Dancing is going to start snorting vinegar again and really get crazy with his posts.. He covered this yesterday and I almost had an LSD flashback.
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When you dream is it always a scene of just you or you interacting with others? Of course not. The people in Jack's vision represented the different components of his personality, this is why some components were at odds with one another. AS he purged the bad ones, the better ones came more to the forefront. Kate would be a great example, when she talks about waiting for him forever before going into the church, she is actually saying she has been waiting for him to be able to truly love, to be in love, to love life etc. Kate is possibly the best view into what Jack was as his psychology developed in those 3-5 minutes after the plane crashed before he died. Remember that his mind was running a spiritual narrative, he was not necessary to be in all of it, and actually it was probably easier for him to see these play out with himself directly involved until he had spiritually evolved. That's why toward the end he took more prominence in his own vision.
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Dude, you are extrapolating. A LOT.
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I agree with your opinions and I feel the same about the ending as you..
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...Jack's dad tells him all of the other characters and their experiences were real.
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I wasn't offended by your post or anything, I just didn't get the context because I didn't read all the comments in the TB and didn't realize there were some atheists who got all worked up over it. To me, even if the ending did have to do with God, it wouldn't have offended me. But as I took it, God wasn't a factor. At least, what's cool about it is that I was not forced to accept God as a factor, but a person of faith could certainly have found God in that ending I suppose. Which is nice and ambiguous, much like the show itself.
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I like Dancingforever take, last 10 minutes of the show be damned!
Explains why the Smoke Monster flat out gave up in the final episode, and was not so monsterous after all. As well as all the events in season 1-5.
So that it for me then, me and jack's eyeball are at peace, and we are going to go finish "Dead like Me" on Hulu now. Call me what you will, but I think I'm not gonna take what that drunkard spoon feed me at face value after all :) -
someone just called me an asshat. what to do? what to do?
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The "experiences" were real. If not for Jack's internal morality play, he would not have been able to ascend to heaven. A crucial scene to understand this is the moment when Jack touches the coffin, in that moment all of the fantasies of the island dream flash before him and he realizes they were not real in a physical sense, that's what prompted the question to his father. His father then assures him that his soul's transformation was real, and through his own private mortality scenario, he found salvation. It's really some brilliant writing by the creators, maybe the best thing we have ever seen on TV.
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http://i.imgur.com/wtzBE.gif
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Weren't you saying, like, two days ago in a TB, that you didn't even watch the whole show? I am pretty sure you were ripping on it and calling everyone who liked it and got emotional over the finale gay. And now it's the best thing we have ever seen on tv?
Obvious lonely attention whore is obvious. -
It seemed to be to be perfectly logical that the smoke monster must become human again before he could leave. MIB could leave when he was human in the past, but could not leave once he became the smoke monster. I'll admit that I am still a little foggy about why the smoke monster was described as a security system unless by "security system" they meant that it was keeping MIB from leaving. Not clear on that part. But it did make sense to me that if he could not leave as smokie, he'd have to be made human again even if MIB did not understand this.
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White (polar bears): they were more than adequately explained. Dharma was experimenting with time travel and harnessing weird energies and they used animals like bunnies and polar bears to carry out those experiments. Charlotte's flashback to the Tunisian desert verifies that Dharma, at the very least, utilizied a polar bear on one occasion to turn the Donkey Wheel. And Kate and Sawyer were locked in the Polar Bear cages when they were taken by Ben to Hydra Island. Also: polar bears are pretty good swimmers, which would explain why a few showed up on the main island.
Red (who matched with who in the sideways universe): The sideways universe was a place they all created together, so you can expect there to be a little bit of fruedian symbolism involved in what happened there (dancingforever should love that!). The most important thing for Jack, for instance, was fatherhood, hence his made-up son. The mother was Juliette, someone with whom he once had a fleeting but intense relationship. He died before he could ever have that kind of life with Kate, hence her not being a real fit for being the mother of his child. Once he 'found' her in the sideways universe, they were finally together, reflecting the choice they both made just before she left the island.
Concerning Sayid: in his sideways universe, he mentally paired the apparent love of his life with his brother, probably because his relationship with her was never based on love, but on guilt over what happened in Iraq. The person with whom he formed a more important bond was with Shannon. Though brief, his few days with her finally allowed him to accept his past and move on. That was ultimately more important to him than being with Nadia forever. -
what to do? continue being substancless and condescening. Its been money for you this far.
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I hated it, loathed it and thought it to be a cheap con. It was only watchign it again and again that it started to ft together for me. Carl's Hat made a proclamation that made perfect sense, and then as I kept rewatching it I relazied that like most, I had completely missed something brilliant. Now that I understand it, I think it's the most clever thing ever on television, and possibly in any kind of visceral media. I'm ashamed I missed it at first, but now that I see the genius that it was, I try to share it with others who were frustrated once as I was.
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So does it make a manly man like you cry like a gay now that you love it?
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LOST
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Try all you want - your goofy, baseless metaphysical concepts can't retroactively fix a TV series that Darlton fubar-ed with sloppy, careless writing.
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Fuck that.
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there you go. Keep up the good work.
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against Dancingforever's goofy, baseless metaphysical concepts that retoactively fix the TV series that Darlton fubar-ed with sloppy, careless writing.
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If you want my comeback, you can wipe it off your mum's face.
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I'm not name calling here.. He actually wears an ass for a hat!
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...the finale of Lost made sense, resolved hanging plotlines, had none of this multi-cultural purgatory nonsense... and was watchable.
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Dancingforever is like a passive-aggressive troll. He doesn't believe anything he is saying, he is just trying to get people to engage him. Just a few days ago, he was saying that he stopped watching the show after season 2, and that anyone who got emotional over the finale was a fag. He has simply shifted his trolling into a more non-offensive variation.
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There is no evidence to support the idea that the Smoke Monster was ever a human being. MiB DIES in "Across the Sea". From the information that we are given, the Smoke Monster merely assumes the form and some of the memories of certain people. There is no reason to support the idea that, when the cork gets pulled on the Smoke Monster, it should revert to a flesh-and-blood John Locke body that Jack can kill.
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Point taken!
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Ha!, I like that..
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The writers ran out of talent years ago. They weren't as smart as they thought they were, they didn't have the talent to build a coherent series from the foundation they created in series one
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belongs to a 17 year old cuban girl named rosalita. its a nice asshat
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But I openly admit I was wrong. I also think the logic of my posts speak for themselves. It's strange, in a way I guess my journey to understand the series and finale was much like Jack's. At first I wanted answers for all the mysterious things of the island, and felt conned we didn't get them. When I had the epiphany of seeing the brilliance of this story, I couldn't help but fell humbled and enlightened. The writers of this show are genius, and Lost has easily surpassed The Wire, Twin Peaks, or any other of the greats. This is the best show ever on TV. The key is to understand that all the so called inaccuracies were intentional, this is what confuses most people. When you see the inaccuracies as a by product of a dying mind desperately trying to make sense of that what can not be made sense of, it makes perfect sense. It was a character story, the island was used to keep the viewer away from figuring out what a brilliant piece of character development/arc we have ever seen. It was completely internal!
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Are people so desparate that they are pulling out ratings. Lost still did better than Desparate House Wives in that slot. I'm also sure that the finale of Alf had more viewers than the finales fo Farscape, Buffy, Angel, The Prisoner, Shield, The Wire and BSG. So when you bring up ratings you sound like a whining fool. If you didn't like, fine. Move on with your life. Why after four days are you still obsessing over this show? Take Christian's advice and move on.
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Please explain his appearances prior to the finale. Where was his actual body?
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and i didnt even know about half of those unaswered questions... can we all forget about lost now...I heard SUPERNATURAL IS FUCKING FUCK FUCKIN FUCK FUCK FUCKIN GREAT!
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Why they moved it to Tueday, I don't know. Castle would kill to have Lost's ratings.
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Good one! Where do you come up with that stuff?
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Ala Stephen King. "GO then, there are other worlds than these."
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Who was shooting in the canoe? Fuck off.
Why did the statue have four toes? Fuck off.
What was the black smoke made of? Fuck off.
What was the island made of? Fuck of?
Now go get a life. -
Oh wait. Sorry. Wrong Geek-hole talkback wankfest.
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1. The Island was real
2. All of the stuff that happened from season 1 through 6 was real. It happened.
3. They did not all die in the original crash.
4. This was not all a figment of Jack's dying mind.
The point of the ending was to say "let it go." All of the questions, the mysteries, etc. All of it. Let it go. Nothing is more important than your friends and the people you love. That's what matters.
They all died at different times. -
... by an exposition dump. They played emotional engagement as their trump card, at the expense of intellectual satisfaction. I love that. I'm always more interested in how a show makes me FEEL.
I think it nailed the bittersweet ending, that has me sad to let go of these characters, while at the same time trying to make sense of it all. It invites you to think about it, argue about it and draw your own conclusions.
I get why people would be frustrated by its vagueness and unanswered questions. But not me. I'm just happy it gave the characters the sendoff they deserved. -
and he should have spent the whole first hour reading all the answers. Then they kill Smokey and all die. The end.
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Hesiod2k7's points are right on in my opinion, and Happyfat73 kind of nails why I think they succeeded in the finale. Not that anybody should care what I think, per se, but I think their points are worth noting.-Cheers
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You'd have some splaining to do.
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You'd have some splaining to do.
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Is it coincidence that the smoke monster kept the desire to leave the island that MIB originated? Even as John Locke, the connecting thread between the two was the desire, above all else, to leave the island. Also, how do you explain that there was no smoke monster until MIB went into the cave and died? Even if smokie is a completely different entity with MIBs memories, it is clear those are the dominant memories. It still also stands to reason that the only way for it to get off the island would be to disconnect itself (become mortal/human/whatever) from it. I'm not sure how else to look at that, but am open to ideas.
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Eliza Dushku, but nothing against rosalita
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and talked about his crazy mother. So there's that.
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was unavailable. which is weird.
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First of all, dancingforever HOW DARE you say LOST is better than the Wire? That is ridiculous. Its like comparing prime steak to roadkill.
Secondly, if Jacob 'created' the Smoke monster then how come it was on the cave drawing underneath the temple wall? And how come it 'lives' down there in its little chamber thingy when it came from the light cave? How come MIB was alive for 2 THOUSAND YEARS but could never find the light cave, considering it was at the end of a stream, you'd think that would be a big clue in finding it? How come when Smokey was created the light went out, but in the finale it was back on again? How come Jacob and Mother said the mumbled prayer but Jack didn't? How come...etc. BECAUSE THEY HAD NO CLUE HOW TO RESOLVE ANY OF IT!!!
The college humour vid is right on the money, except it could easily be TWICE as long and still skip a whole bunch of questions. LOST was just making shit up that either looked or sounded cool. They contradicted themselves over and over and then pulled out some non-sensical spiritual crap right at the end in the hope of providing a good ending. Didn't work. Don't be taken in by the one-line explanation of the sideways-verse or the slow motion recapping accompanied by great score, that was NOT an ending. It was a creative team DEVOID of ideas spraying whipped cream on top of your apple pie in the hope you don't realise it tastes like shit. -
then LOST were my top 5 shows of all time before season 6. Now it wouldn't even make the top 20. All those interviews with Darlton where they kept saying how it was all planned and that it was exciting to pay-off all the mysteries they'd set up over the years, they only resolved ONE. And that was something they introduced THIS YEAR. And even then that contradicted the season opener.
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Please describe places where LOST contradicted itself.
also...
only the protecter of the island can find the light. Mother took Jacob there, Jacob look Jack there, Jack took Hurley and MIB there.
The prayers were likely just some kind of mystical nonsense said by Mother that didn't actually matter. They didn't need to be said, but Mother sais them anyway as some kind of ritual that was passed down to her.
Jacob didn't 'create' the monster. It existed as a prisoner inside the cave, and needed the vessel that was MIB's body to escape. Although once it escaped, it was still trapped within the confines of the island. It apparently existed long before that and menaced Egyptian people before being imprisoned inside the cave.
The light didn't go out after the monster emerged, but it had dimmed significantly. -
"First of all, dancingforever HOW DARE you say LOST is better than the Wire?"'
Sounds like a roudabout way of saying, "I didn't really watch THE WIRE..."
By the way, if any of you forlorn LOST fans could see fit to tuning into BREAKING BAD (maybe to cope with withdrawal symptoms), it would be much appreciated...it could use a ratings boost. Brilliant character/psychological/sociological study with one of the greatest antiheroes in TV history...I've only started watching this season and got hooked quick. -
Michale Emerson just said on Attack of the Show that the island was not in jack's head and it was real. Also, Darlton confir this on the DVD bonus features.
Dance - How could you disillusion me like this? Now I will have to cry myself to sleep. -
Everything you just said as reasons to tune into Breaking Bad are the exact same reason why it doesn't have a bigger audience. Not many people can get excited and start rooting for a drug dealer. Also, most people dont watch tv to see a character study or psychological study or whatever. They want fun entertainment and Breaking Bad fails on that count in every way. It is not fun, nor is it entertaining to a vast majority of people no matter how well written or well acted it is.
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Carl's hat can SUCK IT!! Like matt lauer.
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Although I think most who commented here knew you were right.
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Sorry Goldberg, I've tuned into Justified because of its ironic humor. BREAKING BAD was just too depressing for me. THE WIRE wasn't bad. I liked it. I still miss DEADWOOD although the 3rd season ending blew goats poor elsworth.
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I may move over to the new link. 15 minutes of life on the island under Hurley and Ben on the DVD.. How dare they rip us off like that.. oh hell who am I kidding I'll buy it.. I once paid $200 dollars for one of pam anderson's pubes.
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As Lost is the most ridiculous show on television, it is vital that the shows end, be equally as ridiculous. But in this case, they've managed to go beyond that and turn the entire thing into a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions. These writers have their heads so far up their own asses, that they forgot about logic. They probably got stoned and thought they had the greatest idea of all time, when in reality, it's absolutely fucking retarded and not to mention extremely lazy. Purgatory - HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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...no need to drag Matt Lauer into this!
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they think the credits at the end of the show were new candidates.
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At first I was pissed team Lost bailed on bringing the Gunslinger to life after buying the rights. But after watching the rape of a finale Sunday, I'm glad they did.
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Check out the season 1 soundtrack for LOST, the second track is called "THE EYELAND"! That's right folks, you read it right, it was ALL in Matthew Fox's mind's eye.
When they told us that Jack was originally going to die in the pilot, that was the clue. If you disregard the whole series, Jack BEGAN dying in the pilot,and save for six seasons of his visions basically died in the timespace of the pilot. -
you also have to disregard Michael Emerson verifying that everything actually happened on the island, and was not all in Jack's head [see the most recent LOST article on the AICN coaxile column].
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I hadn't considered that. When they said we planned to kill him, basically they gave away the whole plot with out anyone seeing it. I'll openly admit that until you clued me in, I was as confused as anyone. Once you accept that this entire journey was one through a man's mind, with his soul on the line, all mysterys are explained. It's the only explanation that covers the "mistakes" in the series. Realizing that the mistakes were on purpose, clues if you will that this was all not real make sense of the entire journey. I feel one of the key scenes to demonstrate this would be Jack giving the position of protector to Hurley. The first time we see this with the mother, it's mystical, magically, and full of theater. By the time Jack passes the control to Hurley, it's with an old water bottle and dirty water, all of the pomp and circumstance have been removed. It's an excellent way to convey that Jack's view of the island is no longer one of magic and mystery. This also happens as he is transitioning toward "the waiting room" and accepting that he is dead.
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"Not many people can get excited and start rooting for a drug dealer. Also, most people dont watch tv to see a character study or psychological study or whatever. They want fun entertainment and Breaking Bad fails on that count in every way."
Gawd, what a superficial, pedestrian assessment of a great show. Take my word for it: no one is asked to "root" for Walter on BREAKING BAD. The character and the situation he's in are considerably more complicated and nuanced than your typical Hollywood protagonist.
And why the fuck is there this ongoing, phony dichotomy on this site between shows and movies that involve some level of insight and thought and what's euphemistically described as "fun"? Ever occur to you that a mental/intellectual challenge is actually "fun" to a smart person? Would LOST have been a better show if there were no hardships, villains or compromised personalities in the plot, just a bunch of people sitting on a beach weaving reeds, hunting coconuts and waiting for rescue? And do I need to get into the fact that, once you remove all the spaceships, broomsticks and orcs from such cultural hits as STAR WARS, HARRY POTTER or LOTR, at the end of the day, what resonated with the fans wasn't the otherworldliness of their plots, but just the much simpler themes of moral challenges, friendship, sacrifice, and overcoming discomfort?
Like too many Hollywood producers out there, you seem to be confusing special effects, sets and pyrotechnics for effective storytelling... -
I originally thought that too. It would have been cool for them to validate that with a pan out shot of the original plane crash after he closed his eyes and died. But they didn't. Also, he's not wearing the same clothes either. Kinda shoots that theory to shit.
I was hoping for that though. Would have been a better payoff than what we actually got.
Here's how it should have ended. We cut to Jack in the bamboo, he's wearing the same cloth's as in the pilot. He's bloody and dying. His eyes close. The camera pans out, and we see the fresh aftermath of the plane crash. Everyone's dead, bodies everywhere. Jack was the temporary sole survivor. 6 season's of Lost were all in his minds eye...THE END -
That's just the dream ending. That's terrible. What I want to know is how did Smokey appear as Christan when his body was never on the plane.
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Seriously, someone explain to me what happened to his body on the island and what was behind his appearances on the island.
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http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsg8uFULSbs
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Smokey said he was appearing as Christan throughout the series, they've said that Christan's body was NOT on the plane. Christan appearing in Jack's church scene seems to confirm he died in the real world, so maybe his body was really in the coffin, I don't know.
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Look at Joss Whedon, for example. His shows have plans and yet he still manages to improvise well when characters spin off or availability changes.
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Then what were his two post-mortem appearances off island?
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I think Kate said it in the finale.. CHRISTIAN Shepherd.. are you kidding? he was there and appeared throughout to guide and shepherd Jack to the light... I believe like a lot of things on the show that name is not just a coincidence. Some things were explained, some semi explained and some left there hanging. I for one am glad they didnt try and explain every last detail.
Jacks dad was the MOST important person in his life that he wanted to please, meeting him at "the church", the meeting place was his redemption in his own mind with his Dad. He had become someone he thought worthy of his Dad.. he had saved the island, saved the woman he loved Kate ( we all saw the plane fly off_)and now many many years down the track when everyone had passed on, he was seeing all those that he helped loved and interacted with on the island so he could finally.. let go.
perfect ending.
I loved it! -
In one of Jack's early episodes. Jack is at the Oceanic air counter and the lady tells him that they can't fly his body back to L.A.
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Why did he look for it? And why did he appear off island in the real world?
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It was laid out quite clearly in the finale that what happened, really happened (except in the flash-sideways of course).
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That's an answer to so many questions right there: it was NEVER Jacob's cabin, it was always Smokey's cabin. (Jacob lived in the statue, remember, since at least when Richard first came to the island, and also after the 815ers came there. So he never had a cabin.) The ash was to keep Smokey in, but it somehow got disturbed and Smokey got out. (And Ilana and the other Jacobites burned Smokey's cabin down when they discovered the ash was broken.) Smokey was also Ben's Mom on the island, and thereby manipulated Ben into believing it was Jacob's cabin. (and then did the same to Claire, Locke, and Hurley, as Christian Shepherd.) Also, Smokey was Dave, (who tried to kill Hurley by getting him to jump off a cliff!) Kate's horse, Sayid's cat, the spiders that paralyzed Nikki and Paolo, (they just immobilized the two: the 815ers killed them when they buried them alive) anyone else?
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Cuase he saw the vision of his father, and he went to the caves and found the empty coffin. I wonder if the coffin was a transport between this world and the Flash Sideways world?
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I've got that same sad, empty feeling in my gut that I get when I finish a great book... that sense that you're really gonna miss the characters you've spent so much time with. It's like saying goodbye to friends.
Having spent six years Jack, Hurley, Kate, Locke, Desmond, Sawyer and co, I'm really gonna miss those guys. To me, that is the mark that I've experienced something greater than the sum of its parts.
Even if, in the wash up, some of the mysteries were left unsolved, and the nature of the whole thing remains frustratingly vague... it can't undo 6 years of emotional investment in this narrative. To borrow a well-worn cliche - happiness is a journey, not a destination.
That's why I appreciate the emotional approach to the finale, rather than an intellectual one. I think anyone who's followed this show - if they're honest with themself - has always known that the final "explanation" for all these shenanigans could never measure up to the expectations, theories and speculations that have been built around it. Better then to send these characters off in a manner that befits the emotional attachment many of us have for them.
So, thank you Lost, and thank you to all the writers, crew and cast who created this flawed but singular television experience. I'll miss it. -
May 27, 2010 3:59:29 AM CDT
The Smoke Monster evolves, and proves Jack was dying all along..
by dancingforever
Another very interesting arc that happened as Jack lay dying on the island, imaging all that we believe was real, was that of the smoke monster. Jack being a man of science, when he first projected the image forth of the smoke monster, did so where as the being was very mechanical sounding, and functioned almost as a security system. As Jack's mind evolved, as did his soul, the Smoke Monster changed in something much more mystical and that of a different world than it originally was. As Jack grew spiritual as he lay dying on the beach and imagining all the events of the 6 seasons, many of the characters show signs of radical changes that would not make sense if this story were in fact real in the sense of how we define real. Yes there were consequences to this projected journey, but those played out against metaphorical characters that evolved as his mentality did.
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I said - " how DARE you say LOST is better than the Wire?"
To which the response was - "Sounds like a roudabout way of saying, "I didn't really watch THE WIRE..."
Huh? I don't get that at all. I watched all 5 seasons of the Wire and it is the most beautifully crafted, intelligently written drama series out there. A huge cast of characters, each one well drawn and the last episode was brilliant, moving, and provided closure of sorts for all of them. LOST? Not so much. Just my opinion of course...
Now Maxwell, contradictions eh? Ok...off the top of my headIf the sideways are purgatory (of sorts) then why is the Island sunk in the season opener? How come Widmore was suddenly able to find the Island again? Why does Danny say in season 3 that "Shepherd wasn't even on Jacob's list"? How come Mikhail says a few eps later that neither Sayid, Kate or Locke are on the list, when in fact all of them are? If the whispers are people who can't move on, then why does Ben tell Rousseau to "run the other way" when she hears them and how come they are heard in the temple just before the temple others attack the losties? If Christian Shepherd was Smokey, then how come he appeared to Michael on the boat, AND how come he said "you can go now", when he ended up stuck on the island? How come sometimes the Cabin moves around, and other times it stays in the same place? If Richard knew all along where Jacob was (under the statue) then why did he let Ben keep going to see MIB in the cabin? (That of course assumes it was MIB in the cabin, something we were never told but have just assumed) If all appearances of dead people are in fact manifestations of Smokey, then how come Ben saw his dead mother INSIDE the perimeter of the sonic fence? If the sideways world was created by the losties in oder to enter the afterlife together, then why are Rose and Bernard there? They wanted nothing to do with the rest of them on the Island, and Rose said of Locke (the real Locke) "I'm not going anywhere with that man". I guess she'll make an exeption for heaven!
You may be able to answer some of those, even I can guess at a couple, but they are all contradictions of varying degrees. And thats discounting the stuff that is simply there to "look cool". For example, the scene in season 4 where Richard visits Locke as a young boy, all us fans were agonising over those items he brought with him were'nt we? The knife, the sand, the book, the compass, all of them. What did it all mean? What about Locke's drawing of what looked like the Smoke Monster?! Did we ever find out what ANY of that meant? Wasn't it just another example of making shit up just to seem mysterious?! As for only the Island protector being able to find the cave, no where in the show is that stated, but again I guess could could infer that. I've heard all the arguments about the "emotional approach" to the finale and that the answers to our questions would never be as satisfying as the ones we imagined, and there is some truth to that, but to simply ignore those questions altogether is nothing short of a cop-out. I'm glad some people liked the resolution, good for you, I just can't see how you can. -
Is probably the most elegant and fulfilling denouement to a television series ever. The way it all came full circle the way it did was a stunning piece of television. It's only appropriate, too, as The Wire is, by far, the best television drama ever created, and almost single-handedly ruined all other television drama for me by virtue of it's brilliance. I don't think that's hyperbole either.
But you know what? I still didn't feel as emotionally affected by its end as that of LOST.
The reason for this is the amount of time I invested in both series. I discovered The Wire late, and devoured the entire set over the space of about 6 months on DVD.
LOST, on the other hand, was with me for 6 years, and so end so leaves a much bigger emptier space inside, simply because I lived with it longer. I wonder if anyone else has had a similar experience to me in this?
Anyway, for a while now I've thought that nothing could top The Wire in terms of fulfilling the potential that television has to offer. However, after a couple of seasons of Breaking Bad, I'm thinking there may be a contender... -
It's amazing how much bullshit these writers and producers can come up with, for so many seasons. Now let some real shows, with real writers take over. Trouble is, the spoon fed masses won't get an intelligently written show, that actually makes sense. They want absurdity like "Purgatory" or Battlestar Craptacular's "Angel" nonsense. These writers need to lay off the happy smoke and stop believing all their hype. Hype is nothing!
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The Wire was a nice little series, but to act like it was even on the same field as Lost is completely ridiculous. Season 5 of the Wire was wildly uneven, albeit with great moments. The whole newspaper story line was boring, there was very little symbolism or any depth, and Omar's demise felt forced and unnecessary. Lost was the most complex thing we have ever seen on TV with air tight writing and was perfectly plotted from day one till the end over a six season run. You just can’t compare the two at all.
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because well...lets just leave it. I'll start getting abusive and I do't want that :)
The kid that killed Omar is seen in season 3 at the scene of Omar's stick up. He's the one pretending to be Omar using a tree branch as a shotgun. Now THAT is meticulous plotting and excellent foreshadowing. Perhaps s5 was not as good as s4, but s4 is the single greatest season of a TV show ever, so that was always going to hard to top. As for LOST's "air-tight" writing, see my post 3 posts above this one. -
There are only 2 to fight off at the moment and it hardly feels like a challenge attempting to close them both to get to content, why not throw 5 or 6 up at once, now that could be challenging
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I would give you that Season 4, on it's own would be up there with Twin Peaks Season 1, Lost any season, or Deadwood Season 2 as the highest peak of television entertainment. The specific problem I have with the Wire, is the Cop parts of the story don't hold up for repeated viewings, at least to me. Omar, Marlo, Brother Muzno, were all fantastic, but then when you go to the cop stuff it slows way down. I think of McNulty on the docks or whatever, man that really slowed things down.
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Although season 5 is a close second, it moves with break neck pace, it twists the story in amazing ways, everyone seemed vital and importnant and more importantly it was 2 seasons away from heaven, meh
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Sometimes I'm not in the mood. It's DARK
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got into Breaking Bad in season 1, but I've still got one left before even tackling season 2. Its been sitting on the DVR for months, one day I'll get round to watching the rest. It is good, but very dark. Lost season 4 is still my favourite season of LOST, but thats diminished by the lacklustre final season and horrible finale. I think the initial anger has worn off 3 days later, but the disappointment remains.
And I LOVE season 2 of The Wire. After 4 its my favourite. Apples and Oranges I guess :) -
At the point where Desmond lifts the cork... God's floating head materialises and in a loud, booming voice - dishes out the answers to all the questions the audience deserves to find out (as asked by Desmond)...
* The numbers / Valenzetti equation - should have been THE equation to reaching & communicating with the after-life (in a HHGTTG kind of way).
* The whispers, ghosts, etc, all linked to 'leaks'.
* The smoke monster being a demon who wanted to return to the living world & break the doorway between worlds so that hell could rule on Earth.
* All children are special, because God deems them to be innocent. "The others" looking to exploit the island were also looking to exploit the children as a means to finding the source and communicate with the other side... That could have been twisted so that Widmore was seeking knowledge (power) from those on the other side. Perhaps a means to return from the dead - when he dies. Ben, maybe just looking for his dead mother...
Etc, etc.
It would have answered at least some of the biggest questions at least in some sort of logical way.
Instead, we get a church where a bunch of strangers choose to meet up with each other - rather than everyone they missed (e.g. Juliette and her sister).
Shame. -
I would have kept the purgatory flashes, but resolved things so that everyone got to be with those they'd missed and lost in that church.
* Sawyer seeing his mother.
* Juliette and her sister.
* Jack, Claire and Christian.
* Sun + Jin and their kid.
... and so on.
The way all the characters keep living their hopeless life in the side ways flashes right up until the end of the show is neat, but unless they all died in the crash - it makes no sense to me that they're on flight 815 at the side flashes at the start of season 6 and the island (despite actually existing) only exists at the bottom of the sea. Of course, Christian said everything that happened did happen... So I'm guessing that in purgatory they all got off the flight okay. No idea why Eloise told Desmond not to try to bring everyone together though if everyone's already dead in a timeless state of being. Perhaps I missed something... -
...I'm not nearly as free during the day as I have been the last few days, so I may not be able to rattle off answers to your questions really promptly, but most of what you asked had pretty simple answers, and as I have time, I'll try to answer them today.
One quick easy one: When Richard visited young Locke, he had no idea if he was really special or not; just the word of a crazy bald guy who mysteriously appeared then disappeared on the island who gave him a compass. To verify whether what the crazy guy said was true or not, Richard goes to the hospital on the day the crazy guy said Locke would be born, and witnessed his birth. Hmm. Interesting, the crazy guy was right. years later, when the young Locke has grown up a bit, Richard decides to test him, Dalai Lama style: he presents him with a bunch of random items, amongst which is hidden the compass which the crazy guy from years ago seemed to attach some importance to. Richard hopes young Locke will choose the compass, but he doesn't, causing Richard great frustration. Richard continues to follow Locke through his life, and when, through very little doing of Richard's, he still manages to end up on the island, Richard is finally forced to admit that this guy might actually be special, and willingly hands the reigns of power over to him. Simple and pretty straight-forward. To those of us paying attention anyway. -
except for the fact that there is NOTHING in the show to suggest that a childhood-era Locke should have any forknowledge of any of those items, as they don't belong to him yet. And Richard is upset when Locke picks the knife, as if THAT is the test item. Look the scene is just more random shit thrown at the screen to see what sticks. Locke's drawing of the monster is just further proof of this. Designed to get the nets buzzign over "what it all means" when in truth it doesn't mean anything.
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... thanks (genuinely) for discussing this decently, it's refreshing to meet someone on the other side of a discussion who doesn't resort to insults.
Now, I have to ask, though - when you say "The most important thing for Jack, for instance, was fatherhood, hence his made-up son" - how on Earth (or the island :) )can you say that so definitely? I didn't get that at all, and I'd like to think I understood the character motivations pretty well. It just seems that you're positive about something that nobody really can be sure of? -
"All The Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues"; most of jack's relevant flashbacks being about his relationship with his dad; Christian seeming to haunt him throughout the whole series (even if it wasn't really Christian most of the time); and in teh sideways universe, he unconciously gives himself a son which he never actually had. Based on all of that, I'm inferring the father/son relationship was at the forefront of his wants and needs.
Goldberg: of course Locke has no foreknowledge of those items! But Richard thinks he does because of the magic crazy man from the island (who wasn't actually magic, he just knew what would happen in the future!) Which is why lil Locke doesn't choose the compass, because there is nothing significant about it! It's just a compass! He's not mad that Locke choose the knife, he's mad because he DIDN'T choose the compass, because he was under the assumption that there was some kind of mystical connection with the boy. He was angry and disappointed the same way lots of LOST fans got when the show ended in a way they didn't think matched their interpretaion of the show! -
Maxwell, that's a whole lot of inference.
I love subtlety in most things, but for me the weight of evidence is against all of this. There's far too much inference and credit given to the writers, IMHO.
I am curious what you made of the Smoke Monster's inability to leave the island, yet Christian Shepard (Smokie or not Smokie - Shakespeare would be proud) turned up off the island on at least 2 occasions I can remember at the moment? -
Yes, there is some inferring, but all of Jack's storylines revolved around 3 things: his need to fix things, the love triangle with Kate & Sawyer, and his relationship with his dad which was rather bluntly paralleled in his flash-sideways storyline where he tries to develop a relationship with a son, David. What weight of evidence goes against the father/son relationship being important.
Concerning Christian's off-island appearances. I only remember one (in Jack's office late at night), but there may have been another. I don't necessarily have an evidence based theory on that one, other than that it couldn't have been the monster (since he's trapped on island), but don't forget, Jack is just beginning his spiral into alcohol and drug abuse at this point. It totally could have been a hallucination, or it could have actually been the spirit of Christian appearing to Jack the same way Charlie and Ana-Lucia, et al, appeard to Hugo. -
So easy to address/not-address, I'm surprised the writers did it. When Locke admits to appearing to Christian. "But I saw you--off the island. I was at the hospital--"Locke looks quizzical, almost worried. "You saw me--you saw Christian Shephard--off the island? Before you came back?"
"A month(?) before I left, I saw my father, standing in the waiting room--"
Smokey is abruptly dismissive. "I don't know who you saw, Jack. But that wasn't me. The man who led you to water, so you and your people had something to drink? That was me. " -
No it wasn't another timeline, it was limbo/purgatory, those flashbacks (they are flashforwards in the last season) are after they were all dead hence Jacks father saying to jack they they all created this place they are now and that some of the others died before jack and some after and that there was no time in purgatory.
Also in reference to Locke, when they realised/accepted they were dead and in the afterlife, thats when they can do anything they want like locke walking and jin and sun speaking english after they remember etc.
The problem with the pugatory flashforwards is that they have absolutely no point to whats happening on the island and the last 6 seasons and is just filler for the series and the finale. Also why would they all forget about each other and the island just because they were all dead?, that just doesn't make sense to me.
I wish it had of been another timeline as the first half of season 6 made it look like the bomb had worked meaning the plane never crashed but something went wrong leaving the survivors still on the island even though the plane now had not crashed (so there were now 2 of Jack, kate etc) but as soon as they started remembering, it was obvious that the alternative timeline wasn't real and it was something else and limbo/purgatory was the outcome hence the "time to move on" line and the light when Jacks father opened the church doors.
Everything that happened on the island was real though, Jack died watching the plane fly away with the survivers and they all died at different times but all eneded up in the same place until they all remembered and could move on, annoying realy and has nothing to do with the show at all.
What about actually telling us what the freaking island is!, who the Dharma initiative is and what they wanted with the island, what the forcefield thing is that Desmond turned off at the end of season 2, what the energy sources are on the island, who built the statue and the temples/ruins, why can some people live forever on the island, why the island can move through time, what the 'numbers' are and what they mean, who the others were, why was Walt so important, why was polar bears on the island, why was the island so hard to find, why did that Windum guy or whoever want the island so much, what was he going to do with the island, what would of happened is the smoke monster had of got off the island, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc!.
Why were sooo many questions unanswered and its alright people saying "but it was about the characters" or "do you want to be spoon fed everything" because its fair enough if they had hinted at least at some of these plot points but they didn't which renders large parts of each season completely redundant and pointless!. ::) -
Meant to say.
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* Why was the island submerged in the sideways timeline? Everything in the sideways timeline was symbolic. Of course the island should be there, that was the place they were all brought together. But other than bringing them together, it has no significance. The characters and their relationships to one another are the important thing, because even while they were having important life-changing events there, they all wanted to leave it. So the island exists in the sideways universe, but since they've all repressed those experiences (until they're 'awakened') it is hidden underneath thousands of feet of metaphorical ocean. It wouldn't surprise me if upon the characters' awakenings, the island rose back up out of the sea.
* How does Widmore find the island? he basically said before he died that Jacob helped him. Also, its been established that he found it once before (when he sent the freighter) so why wouldn't be be able to find it again? Its difficult, not impossible.
* Why did Danny & Mikael say certain people weren't on the list? I think it was pretty clear that neither Danny or Mikael didn't know shit. Even Ben admits he's never seen Jacob, and Ben was supposed to be the special one! The only 'List' important to the Others was the one's Ben made (involving who to kidnap, who to save, etc. from the various wreckage sites of 815. We see one such list when he sends Michael to bring Hurley, Jack, Sawyer, and Kate to the pier, but that list had zero to do with Jacob, it was all about Ben's convoluted plan to convince Jack to perform surgery on his tumor. So whatever lists Danny and Mikael are talking about, they're lists presented by ben to achieve Ben's goals in the guise of being a list from 'Jacob' so they would seem more important and help ben maintain the illusion of being special. ben never really communicated with Jacob, therefore he didn't know anything about the Candidate Lists, therefore nobody else did either, therefore whatever Danny & Mikael were saying was based on misinformation from Ben, hence nothing they said is relevant to Jacob's actual Candidate List -
* What's the deal with the whispers? Don't forget, Ben has no fucking clue what the whispers are, and only knows they seem to be heard when weird shit is about to happen. And if you read the transcripts of what the whispers are saying (which are actually scripted lines played at weird frequencies and speeds and sometimes backwards) you see that they're mostly either warnings about bad things about to happen or comments about bad things about to happen. Ben (and nobody else either) know that they're warnings, they just associate the whispers with the bad shit that always goes down after you hear them, so he hears them as a warning to watch out and run or take cover. So the whispers are just warnings from the souls trapped on the island, but nobody can understand them so everyone is scared of them.
*Smokey on the boat? I think 'you can go now' pretty much means, 'you can die now'. And MIB would have been happy for that bomb to blow up because there was a good chance it would have caused the death of a big chunk of the candidates, who ended up not dying because they got Lapidus'ed to safety. What initially seemed like Micheal fulfilling his destiny and earning redemption actually turned out to be MIB encouraging him to just let go so the freighter would hurry up and explode. -
The whole series wasn't in Jack's mind's eye.
If anything, the plane wreckage (shown during the end credits at the end of the finale) seems intended to depict the events on the island were real. With all the wreckage, there are no dead bodies - they were burned by the survivors. -
The wreckage was put in by the network not the producers, it is ti be discounted in the final thesis.
I am interested in why you would think the series wasn't in Jack's mind's eye when all the evidence points that way? -
Went to another side timeline that didn't exist, the island was never explained blah blah..
Didn't like it.
A simple way of dealing with everything would've been to have made Jacob, Jack, and Hugo as "the Entity" or God, Buddah, ect if you wish...
Jack's place in the "God" timeline was to set back the balance for which the Man in Black, I will call him Smoky the bad brother, messed up by having Jacob killed by someone of Smokey’s choosing that was on the Island.
Hence his small time as a God, he just needed it to defeat Smoky as he could be seen as the “Devil”, “Satan”, ect … Since Jacob was unable to kill him because of the predecessor’s wish that the brothers couldn’t kill each other directly and the others were unable to kill him after gaining sole power over the island and one must be for the island to exist, once Jacob was killed, Jack gained this power by drinking the water from the stream.
This power was passed on to Hugo and Jack became “human” again once Hugo drank it. Jack goes in places the rock back, dies, and voilà.. Hugo is now “God/Buddah/Who ever is your higher being”.
Hugo asks Ben to help him out, thus creating back the balance the island needs “God/Devil”; and knowing that Hugo is a caring person, he decides to create the famous side timeline we’ve been witnessing for the past season were the plane does not crash but doesn’t negate him from taking on the power.
He gives them back their lives.
In the last moments, Hugo comes finally face to face with Jack, he gets out of his “I’ll follow you Desmond” mode as he takes over his side timeline self and says hi to Jack who suddenly gets his flashbacks all the way to his death..
Jack - "God?"
Hugo - "If you wish Jack, some would call be by some other name..."
We suddenly see them in the side room in the church, Jack looks around, Hugo smiles, “Pretty neat hey?” he says to him. Then explains to him that everything that happened on the island actually did happen, the island itself is the “Cap” for humanity, give the same speech Jacob gave to Richard, then proceeds to say that he, unlike Jacob decided to interfere and gave a second life to the Oceanic Passengers and the ones who once called the island their home. Hence everyone being there. He says :
"Jacob was good, but didn't want to interfere too much in the day to day things, I decided to interfere so that you could all have your lives back, but I'm kinda new at this... I needed to tweak some things and it kinda messed other things up, hope you don't mind having a kid Jack.. "
Which would explain the differences, such as Sawyer and Miles being cops ect..
Once Jack crosses the doors and sees everybody there, he ask Hugo “What’s next?” Hugo Replies, “Just go on Jack..”
We see Hugo leaving the church, Ben waiting at the door looking at him “You know I can’t go in there now” Hugo replies “I know, didn’t want you to interfere with my decisions… So now that everything is back to the way it should be, let's go back.. "
And they walk away in the night.
Dunno if this would’ve made more sense, but it would’ve followed their religious plot, would explain lots of things that went on as part as Jacob’s and Smoky things to do on the island ect. And I guess we would’ve had an explanation on why Sawyer is a cop, Jack had a kid with what’s her name ect ect in the side timeline as part of being little errors by Hugo trying to fix them up while still being new as a God like entity.
Dunno, just would’ve made more sense to me.. Just my take on what should've been..
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Comparing Lost's finale to ANYTHING that's ever been written for HBO...and even go so far as to say that it's better...I'm saying that that's going too far. I'm thinking of moments such as those in "Rome" when Caesar asks his assistant the name of a guy's wife, and there's a moment of silence while the assistant thinks, then comes up with it. Then Caesar walks over to the man and says, "So, how is Ceria?" much to the man's delight that Caesar remembered his wife's name, and from there the manipulations began. Subtle indications of Caesar's ability to be leader. Now, the writers never specifically put in a line of dialogue where Caesar said something like, "A great leader must always remember names," no, it was DEMONSTRATED repeatedly, along with other qualities. THE WIRE, DEADWOOD, ROME, all those shows did the "show more than tell" better than anything I ever saw on "Lost." I mentioned this before way up top: 3rd or 4th "Lost" episode ever, Iraqi guy shouts to white guy, "You're a racist!" to which the white guy responds, "Yeah, and you're the terrorist!" This kind of blatant "here's why I hate you" or "here's exactly what we're all thinking put into words" style of writing defines "Lost." Well that, and their mastery of cliffhanger 101, which I see as somewhat important (George R.R. Martin does this at the end of every single chapter of A Song of Ice and Fire to great affect) but it is by no means a free pass into great writer territory. I'm not going to be like some and say that you are somehow stupid for liking that kind of writing, but I AM going to go so far as to say that I feel you do not really appreciate the difference between good writing (Lost) and great writing (the other shows I mentioned). Firefly, IMO, is another example of truly great writing. But, what do I know, all of my favorite shows get cancelled first season, sometimes the second season--anybody recall a show called "Profit" starring Adrian Pasdar as a psychopath who slept in the closet of his penthouse naked and in a cardboard box in a fetal position, while in the daytime he manipulated, killed, and blackmailed his corporate competition? Now, THAT was a great show. First show to have a real villain as the main character, and it is NOT given enough credit as the forebearer of SOPRANOS and MADMEN.
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After watching the finale again, I realized something. The Island Desmond and MIB were both confused on how they were supposed to GO HOME. MIB thought he could go home by leaving the island. Island Desmond thought he could go home by going into the light of the island. But the opposite for each was true. Let me explain:
Desmond was our clue to understanding what MIB / Smokey meant when he said that he wanted to go home. When Widmore shot Desmond up with a full blast of electromagnetic energy, I think a that island Desmond's consciousness switched places with the Desmond who was still "LOST" in the sideways world. In the sideways world, when Charlie helped Desmond to "remember", Both Desmonds were enlightened. Everyone is the sideways world who had been enlightened were waiting for the other LOSTIES to join them before they could move on.
So, the already enlightened Desmond was on the island instead being in the "waiting room". He was no longer afraid. He was just waiting for his friends so that he and Penelope would move on into the Light. That is why Desmond was guessing that MIB was taking him to the "Bright Light", - so he could finally go home. But this Desmond was in the wrong world, and the Light that he saw did not take him anywhere.
The Desmond in the sideways world was going against Mrs. Hawkings warnings because he was trying to Speed up the process. He knew what was waiting for him and Penny, and he did not want to WAIT for the others to slowly "Wake UP". So Desmond began "helping" them remember things more quickly.
Did Jacob send Desmond to the island to help "free" his brother from his worse than death fate of being a Smoke Monster for eternity? I think so. The Light and water formed a barrier in the heart of the island that Smokey could never cross to go "home". That is why the Smoke Monster was "trapped". But MIB's soul was trapped inside of Smokey and so, MIB was just trying to leave the island and go across the sea just as he did when he was living.
Smokey has never been able to cross the water in Smoke form. So, Jacob needed someone who would be able to remove the cork and drain the water so that Smokey could return to the bowels of the island. To do that, this person had to build up enough resistence to the Electromagnetic Energy so that they could survive long enough to pull the cork out. Once the Cork was removed, the evil fueled by the magnetic energy was returned to the earth and MIB became mortal. Once MIB was mortal he could die like anyone else, and his soul would be free, and so it was.
But now, the island and the Life giving Light were in danger of being destroyed. Jack, did the job he was convinced was his destiny. He fixed the island, saved the world, But more importantly, He fixed himself and he protected the Light....
The same Light that would lead them all home in the end.
Without the Light, they never would have found each other again. And that is how the two "worlds" were able to merge together.
Jacob redeemed himself by dedicating his life AND DEATH in pursuit of correcting the one "SIN" he was responsible for. I think it is really important to remember at this time, WHY it was such an important theme throughout the entire series for Jacob to give CHOICES to those who were on the island. The people that Jacob brought to the island were broken, and like Jacob said: They needed the island as much as the island needed them. Their pasts didn't matter, their slates were wiped clean, and the responsibility for whatever happened to them while they were ON the island rested souly in their own hands.
Every person on the island made the choices that determined their ultimate fate. This was the MAJOR rule on the island. Everyone who came to the island MUST be allowed to make their own choices, even if the options to choose from were less than desirable. What must be done now, is to go back and figure out what choices each person made that led them to their end story.
So, in the end, Jacob redeemed himself. MIB - I feel should not be held responsible for what happened to him because it WASN'T his choice. He didn't choose to become this evil Monster. His soul was helplessly lost inside this creature that was so hideous, it was forced to live in the fiery bowels of the island. A punishment worse than death that he had to endure for over 2000 years.
I don't think that Jacob or MIB needed any time in purgatory. Jacob and MIB have been "awake" for VERY long time. You could almost view the island as their own private purgatory. When they were finally set free, they knew EXACTLY what they wanted -
You have to first understand that the entire vision of the island and the six season's was all in Jack's mind. The confrontation you talk about with Sayid was Jack's own mind battling racism. and his own racist beliefs. This is why Sayid went back and forth on the series so many times as a good guy then as a villain. Ultimately Jack came to peace with his own fear of people from the middle east, this was an essential part of his transition. I would guess that if Jack envisioned Sayid on the plane he could have thought of him as a threat or a possible colp[ret in the plane's destruction.
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* Why did the cabin move around? I know this won't be a satisfying answer, but its just one of those magical places and no speculation I can offer would be satisfying to anyone who is dispossesed to hate the 'it was magic' answer.
As to what it was? It was some kind of structure built who knows when in which Jacob (presumably) was able to trap MIB (using the ashes to encircle it). When Ben takes Locke there, it seems that MIB was locked up inside, but obviously somehow, he later escaped. When Illana and her crew show up on the island, you'll remember they made a bee-line there and immediately burned it to the ground. It wasn't a good place.
Concerning why Richard would let Ben go there: who's to say Richard even knows Ben is going to the cabin? Or if Richard even knows there is a cabin. As far as he's concerned, Ben is the only other person who can talk to Jacob. But you'll notice when Ben told Richard he was taking Locke to see Jacob, Richard was uncomfortable with this. The usual drill being that Richard is supposed to be the go-between. However, Richard always seemed deferential to a fault to whoever the current leader of The Others was, so if Ben insists, who is he to question? And as far as he's concerned, Ben is heading down to the statue.
All that being said, I'd definitely admit that the cabin was one of the more enigmatic things to appear on the island, and the viewer is only given a broad and ambiguous sense of what it is or does. But what we do know about it is that it served as a cobbled together prison for MIB, and that it moved around, and only certain people who could find it (either because they were 'special' or because Jacob or MIB wanted it to be found). Sorry if that doesn't satisfy you, but I liked it because it satisfied me while maintaining its mysteriousness. -
I don't have the time to get into all of it, but for me the shot of the island at the bottom of the sea is only there to mislead the audience. No character is aware of it down there, so to say its symbolic certainly makes some sort of sense in the context of the sideways explanation, but I still deem it a stretch.
Of course you can write off discrepencies by saying character X was lying or misinformed, but that still seems like a cheat. When Jack says the skeletons in the cave are 40 years old, thats as old as we are MEANT to believe they are, to then find out later they are more like 2 thousand years old is, again, a bit of a cheat. Of course Jack is no expert, but we have no reason to doubt him at the time. The same could be said of Mikhail, Danny Pickett and Ben.
The Cabin was my biggest disappointment for s6. Truth be told, if we'd had an explanation of that one mystery, I would probably like the final season a whole lot more. If MIB was trapped in there then how come the monster is wandering the Island for 5 seasons? If the cabin was for MIB then why does Ilana head there to find Jacob only to say "someone else has been using it"? Who was the other person in there with Christian? All these questions went unanswered and the only explanation is that they made it all up as they went, lost track of it, and so destroyed the thing. Just like the hatch, just like the freighter, just like a whole bunch of other storylines that were just dropped. I appreciate your explanations but I'm sorry I'm just not convinced by them. I think you're inferring things that are simply not there in the episodes. -
* How did the monster get inside the fence? The same way Richard did back in the 70s on the day Sawyer and his gang showed up. I think his explantion to Horace was something along the lines of: "I have my ways". that is to say, I don't know but he apparently managed somehow.
Alternatively: it could have actually been the spirit of his mother appearing to him the same way old passed-on spirits appeared to Hurley. She did seem to entice him to leave the Barracks where Richard was conveniently waiting for him, and perhaps she saw Ben's prospects as more promising and fulfiling if he were to hitch his wagon to The Others instead of with the Keystone Cops that were the Dharma Initiative. -
...I'll readily admit that there are different explanations for what the cabin was, and that the ambiguous nature of such things can cause frustration to the point that you no longer enjoy the show.
The thing I really take issue with is your position that, and I quote, "All these questions went unanswered and the only explanation is that they made it all up as they went". I don't think that's even close to the only explanation.
And how was the Hatch a dropped storyline? Getting into it was a the gateway into season two, and served as a backdrop to the introduction of all the characters in season one. And i'd say all the stuff associated with the Swan station (Desmond, the Incident, Dharma, the failsafe, Locke's crisis of faith while pushing the button, the primary cause of why 815 crashed on the island!!) were pretty important to the story line! -
in fact the way they tied the button pushing into the crash of 815 is one of the highpoints of the whole series. BUT, the whole 'lockdown' procedure, the map and the fact that in that same episode Ben doesn't push the button (or maybe he does) and nothing happens is just another example of things not really making sense. Then there's the Pearl station and the reveal that the others knew about the Swan button but deemed it unimportant, which is pretty weird when you think of the disasterous consequences of not pushing it. I think for most of its run, LOST walked the line of barely following its own internal logic.
A prime example is the episode Enter 77. Under close scrutiny the plot doesn't really makes any sense. Why is there a dharma procedure hidden in a chess game, why is the place rigged with explosives, etc. When you watch it, it all kind of hangs together but examining it closely you realise it doesn't really add up to much. Its just an exercise in intrigue with nothing much behind it. Unfortunately the same could be said of the whole series. Throughout the 6 year run, I was waiting for that final piece of the puzzle which placed everything in a new light and made it all worthwhile. Interviews with the creators implied this was coming.
I'm glad you enjoy it, and its refreshing not be called a troll or a hater because I don't see it the way you do, but for me there were a list of questions that the final season needed to explain or at least elaborate on for me not to deem it a waste of time. One was the cabin, as in who was in it, what was their purpose in using it etc. I don't want an explanation of WHY it moves, I realise stuff like that is not important. Another would be WHY the time travel happened. At the time I theorised that it was all part of MIB's plan and that Widmore was working with MIB and that this seemingly random series of events was all orchestrated as part of him finding his 'loophole'. In the end we never really got anymore information on that loophole. I think for a story to be sucessful its resolution MUST be strong, and in my opinion the final season was probably the weakest of the 6. So therefore I don't deem LOST sucessful. Seasons 1-5 were great, but I forgave the occasional duff plot point or unexplained motivation because I thought in the end, it would hang together. I'm afraid it doesn't. -
From the moment this show began I started wondering what the common link was with all the flashbacks they were showing us. As Jacob said towards the end of the show, they were all flawed or they just didn't know how to handle life. They made a mess of it and coming to the island was their 2nd chance to fix everything. They stayed for awhile and the island presented it's own challenges away from the world. How did they react to these challenges. Can we all agree that as characters they grew as a result of the things they had to overcome. But then, Widmore came and some of them fled the island too soon. Why do I say that? Well, when they got back to civilization they obviously were not ready because their lives were just as bad or even worse (Jack)...hence "We have to go back Kate", the island was not done with them...ie they had not grown enough from the experiences on the island to know what to do in the real world yet...they left too soon. How do you become a candidate? Learn from your mistakes. Can anyone argue that Kate, Sawyer or any of the other candidates did not grow as characters during their stay on the island. Sawyer in particular was quite good at being the hero, flawed as he was. Juliette helped him even more, she helped him become a man. She died, he had to work through his issues, but at the end still found his way back to being a hero of sorts...big contrast from his life away from the island. So the island and all it's constructs and apparatus were only there to manipulate these people into becoming what they always should have been. You are shaped by your environment. These adventures made the characters grow and the "purgatory" was a way of them finding or realizing what the island did for them to grow...so they could move on.
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Initially I gave it a thumbs down. I was thinking what a contrived, annoying, irrelevant and possibly stupid idea it was to sneak an entirely new gimmick into the end of the show. I mulled it over for a day or so then pronounced it a "mistake". I no longer think so.Keep in mind I love The Sopranos' ending.And that's a pretty good lens to view the Lost finale through. It's very much a meta-moment, but . At first I felt very clearly that it the major flaw was it was not attached to the narrative we'd been following - what it WASN'T the bomb that did this??. Not only did they not hint at that attachment, they - with Christian Shepherd's words near the end - explicitly said it WASN'T.And that, I think, it precisely the point, or one of two points.It couldn't be about the bomb. That would still be wrapped in all the contortions and craziness that went on, that the characters went through (and the viewer along with them.I think the idea is to pull the viewer OUT of the island narrative's schematic elements - as I said in my more negative, early take on it, to "bully" the audience - in order to close the door on that aspect of the show, to have a kind of tabula rasa, a clean break for the characters and the audience. Simultaneously - maybe perversely - we are given an entirely new mystery, one that instead of being lunkheaded and ill-conceived as I initially thought, I believe is actually tightly packed, dense and meant to be pored over. The writers are attempting to cleanse the slate, and at the same time give one last gnarly Lost mystery to chew on (and chew on and chew on). Now I'm not saying it works completely, but I think there is some value to something the viewer initially balks at, repulsed, but continues to think about and as a result does an about face. You might argue you shouldn't have to work THAT hard to make heads or tails of it, but given the occasion, the finale of a riddle-riddled show, it's appropriate.
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Just read the newest LOST article and you'll see that when they first go up, the TalkBacks are usually filled with shit-talking trolls who crap on whoever doestn't agree with them. By the 900th comment, they've burned themselves out and only the people having legitimate differences of opinion are left.
Sorry you didn't enjoy the finale. I'm glad I did. See you in another life... -
made me wish that they ended it w/the 5th season finale...albeit w/some slight changes. Just put the origin eps of Richard & Jacob back there along w/one for the Island itself, then Jack blowing up the Island real good...followed by Oceanic 815 landing in LA & the cast departing the plane to the Life & Death Theme - which they did @ the start of season 6! It's a much more powerful ending that says the series happened & it didn't happen, a la the "Yesterday's Enterprise" ep of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
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Actually, that was a slam on DancingForever, not you...I doubt they watched THE WIRE if they think it was "easily surpassed" by LOST.
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@ Dancingforever. You're right, ABC really shouldn't have added that wreckage. Anyway if the whole show was in Jack's head, he'd be wearing the suit and tie he had on in episode 1 and he'd be in the same bamboo clearing. The original area he woke up in is too closely packed to see the plane. I'm not buying that the whole show was a dream.
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...are fucking windowlicking morons.Fact.It was a pathetic, you are pathetic.
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http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/0b61ee18a6/dana-carvey-s-lost-spin-off?rel=auto_related&rel_pos=2
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So many of the questions/theories you guys are posting on here are explained in the last 5 minutes by Christian. THE ISLAND WAS REAL- he says it for christ's sake!!! The flash sideways were purgatory. This was for me the greatest, most movig piece of television I have seen. I would rather they tie up the characters story and forget about answering the 'questions' that the previous 5 years as other wise we would have been left with 2 hours of exposition rather than the ending we we given.
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they're some dense "fans" around these tb's lol...
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