Cool News
So Far, Jay Leno Doing No Better Than Conan O'Brien At 11:35??
I am – Hercules!!
TV By The Numbers has a fascinating look at how the first seven weeks of Jay Leno’s second try at “The Tonight Show” compares to Conan O’Brien’s first “Tonight Show” try.
Seven weeks in, Leno is doing no better than Conan.
Seven weeks in, Leno is averaging a 1.0 in the 18-49 demo while David Letterman averages a 0.8. These are precisely the same numbers "The Tonight Show" and "The Late Show" were pulling seven weeks into Conan’s “Tonight” tenure.
(And if one averages the first seven weeks, we see Conan's 18-49 audience during that period was far bigger than Leno's.)
The chart also reminds us that before “The Jay Leno Show” started last September (at week 16 into Conan’s run, I think), Conan won the 18-49 race against Letterman every single week last summer.
Only after “The Jay Leno Show’s” arrival as Conan’s 10 p.m. lead-in did Conan begin losing to Letterman in 18-49 for the first time.
Find TV By The Numbers’ highly illuminating chart here.
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take that nbc. maybe i should get cable now...
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I haven't watched Leno since he came back and I have no desire to ever again, whereas before I might stop by if he had a decent guest. I never want to look at his smug face again.
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I prefer Conan.
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That would be interesting.
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And they got it.
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would be difficult considering his chin.
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and stores them in his chin.
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That's like saying the sky is blue. Good to see it finally reflected in number form though.
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Herc, I'm interested in how Jimmy Kimmel's good press in handling NBC's f-up did for his ratings.
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can't be said enough
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Seriously, we didn't see this coming?
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NBC might have really screwed themselves with this one. a year from now we'll know what will happen to Leno as Conan will have been back on TV for a while by then. ARGH! I still am weirded out by Conan choosing TBS though. I'd like to hear his thoughts on that one.
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Well somebody had to say it.
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He was off for the Masters and NCAA playoffs, so you can't say his ratings were bad.
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I wonder what assholery NBC will pull next.
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He's never been a good host or interviewer. A guest tries to tell a story and Leno interrupts, then tells them to hurry up, then cuts them off so they can go to commercial. But his live standup act, at least in the old days, was hilarious. I saw him once a long time ago and my face was sore the next day from laughing so much. Too bad he couldn't bring that to The Tonight Show.
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Eh, ya, know.
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What if Conan manages to spank Leno on TBS with higher ratings?
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the rest that is on right now just doesnt do it for me
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Further proof that he should have stayed away from TV when he "retired" from the Tonight Show. Nobody likes you anymore. I used to watch him pre-Conan, but he's been banned from my TV since. Can't wait to see what NBC fucktard executives do now to cover their asses. Coming soon: The Tonight Show with George Lopez! Punchline. Cue the band.
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Wasn't it said all along during Conan's brief time as the host of The Tonight Show that he was doing better with the younger demographic while Leno killed him with the older one? How is Leno doing now compared to how he did before Conan took over? I think Conan is often quite funny and I'm not a fan of Leno at all, but this looks like Hercules manipulating the facts just so he can continue ranting about how much he doesn't like Leno.
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...was not letting Leno walk when they reached the end of the agreement for him to retire. Yeah, he was on top at the time, but he really doesn't have that many years left of relevance in him (none, by many accounts, but still...) People can complain about the original deal forcing him to leave the Tonight Show, but that at least made sense at the time, since NBC was thinking long term. Had they just let Leno go, he would have wound up hosting some "Top Gear"-ish car show on cable most likely. Where was he going to go? ABC wasn't likely to dump it's nightly line-up to launch him a costly new show, Fox was a bad fit audience-wise (and it turns out they didn't have the affiliate agreements to do a nightly talk show anyway.) Letting him go would not have hurt NBC at all. Instead, they signed him to an insane contract with outlandish penalty pay-outs if they canceled his moronic 10pm show. They had no choice but to put him back on the Tonight Show because of it, and so now they're looking at a shrinking audience for an aging, irrelevant host with no successor in sight. Smooth move NBC.
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what a mess
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Apr 23, 2010 6:43:52 PM CDT
Does anyone really care about the late night talk shows?
by bartleby t. scrivener
Late night is reserved for Star Treks and Twilight Zones.
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Seeing him tonight in SF. Going to be SIQ.
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But neither do advertisers?
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isn't on here earning his weekly paycheck, signed by Jay Leno.
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NBC should have it on their channel!
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You reap what you sow, assholes.
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Plus more from the 50 and up crowd? I'm a big Conan supporter and will follow him to TBS, but I don't see how Leno's doing 'no better'.
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Deal with it!
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does unspeakable things to babies - and then eats them.
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No one cares - not me, not you, not NBC. This argument is about as relevant as The Macarena. And anyways, Arsenio Hall is still The King of Late Night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-vUkiotxqk -
Jay Leno is eerily starting to look like the baby dinosaur from that show.
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I get home from work right as all the late night talk shows are starting. I don't watch any of them. I pull up my "On Demand" channels and watch either HBO porn like "Cathouse" or I replay all the gory parts of "The Pacific"
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Yeah, this sounds like a real "glass half empty/half full" scenario. If Jay does as well as Conan did in the demo- especially after having his image pretty much destroyed among younger viewers- that doesn't reflect too well on how Conan performed. Conan was hired on the assumption that he would easily carry younger viewers, yet he failed to do as well as (pre-primetime) Leno. Conan was also getting his ass kicked by Letterman pretty consistently in the ratings- something Leno has yet to experience on his return. I love Conan, but he was never a great choice to go against Dave. Their audiences are just too damn similar. And while NBC fucked up their late night schedule pretty badly, restoring Leno is hardly the worst move they've made. He easily draws more viewers than Letterman and does as well as Conan in the demo. Kind've hard to spin that negatively.
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safe cookie cutter jokes & interviews that insult the audiences intellegence, conan fails @ times but atleast hes trying different things
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These are also the same numbers Jay was pulling in 18-49 before Conan took over the Tonight Show.
Ask TV By the Numbers to add Jay 2009 to this graph. What do you see? -
needs another billion sq foot garage
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Apr 23, 2010 9:14:50 PM CDT
Leno is just a network-level Jon Stewart who can't drop the F bo
by wickedjacob
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Even though Conan had to deal with *far* worse primetime ratings for the network as a lead in. Leno doesn't have utter crap killing the lead in from 10-11pm. Luckily for him, they canceled the guy who was dragging things down at that time.
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The man is the gangrene of NBC. They needed to amputate a long time ago, but he spread into prime time.
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I do NOT like Leno on the Tonight Show. I did however get to see him do uncensored comedy, live, at the MGM Grand Arena. He was fantastic. NOT held to tv standards, and opened up. Very, very, entertaining show. I laughed my ass off.
Tonight show monologues? Not so much. -
Give it up, Herc.
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Herc hates Leno and loves Joss & Stern. He's giving only some of the facts in order to shit on Leno here and Joss isn't doing any TV right now. When do we get another thread praising Stern again? A new one has to be coming soon.
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maybe he can get involved with the bizzaro world of Adult Swim.
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No? Okay, cool.
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This obsession with Leno is sad...
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yes, I stole that line from the weekly SNL talkback.
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"Hey Kev, Did you hear the one about prietht and the rabbi?"
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I realize this is a popular talking point, but it just doesn't hold up. Conan was getting his ass kicked long before The Jay Leno Show debuted (which didn't happen until mid-September). So badly in fact, that he actually started coming in second to Letterman's repeats...and that was even BEFORE Dave's extortion scandal broke. But let's say Leno had never agreed to do primetime- was NBC going to suddenly be in a position to offer him a great lead-in? No. They've been a late night punchline for years. Conan had the misfortune of taking over the show while NBC was a fourth place network, the current host was still #1, and CBS had their own host catering to Conan's demographics. It was never going to be a good idea as long as all those factors were part of the equation.
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Martin Starr ruled over all, though. He was the MVP of tonight's premiere.
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This IS very old news.
HOWEVER.....Leno has been DESTROYING Letterman in E-V-E-R-Y other category and performing MUCH, MUCH better than Conan did.
I'm also pretty sure that Herc knows this and is slanting the facts to portray this as some sort of Leno weakness to reinforce whatever longstanding issue he has with all things Leno.
Or that's how it would seem when looked at with a little more detail..... -
..while he eats more babies?
I don't think so.
I'd rather drink hot CoCo (sounds kinda gay).
I hear NBC stands for Nutritious Baby Chowder -
NBC and their local affiliates are very happy with Leno's current performance compared to Conan's. He's much more competitive against letterman.
Very misleading article. Sorry but it's hard to feel sorry for Conan because he got a MAJOR payout and he simply did not perform well or competitively in his slot. Most local affiliates were calling for his head because of plummeting ratings. NBC had to act.
What does it say about you when a network would rather pay a $40 million dollar penalty and show you the door than rough it out?
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I thought the Leno bashing would end once he as out of Prime Time... wasnt him being on PT the reasoning behind bashing him in the first place?
And rating using the 18-49 demo at late night is retarded.
Of course it hasnt changed much, that is the size of that market at that time of day.
In fact, the simple fact that Leno is remaining pretty much even with Conan in Conan in the demographic that is Conans bread and butter... says a lot for Leno imo.
Wasnt this the demo that was supposed to abandon the NBC late night slot without Conan there?
Leno brings an older demo, and now it seems that he also kept about as much of the "prime" demo as Conan.
So how is this a loss for Leno exactly?
And by the why... im team Conan all the way. I dont find Leno fully at all, but this bashing is just getting ridiculous and now makes zero factual sense.
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At least not talk shows regardless of whose hosting.
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Thank you.
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Leno fans come on here and know they can't just say they love The World's Biggest Douchebag...so first they say "Oh yeah, I love Conan, don't get me wrong, he's great...but if you really look at these numbers--". Shut the fuck up! You're fooling no-one. I'm never watching that motherfucker again. I hated him before just for his weak comedy and kneejerk politics, but now I can hate him for his complete and utter lack of integrity. Fuck that freak.
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Do you have to be to find Leno funny? That and the early-bird special at Denny's are really the tell-tale signs of Alzheimers. Either that or it's a pretty reliable sign that you're a Palin-loving Bush-apologist ignorant teabagging birther Republican.
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If Leno is "only" matching Conan's 18-49, but pulling in more overall viewers, then it's clearly an improvement, right?
I had to go off-site to find out that, yes, this clearly seems to be the case. Thanks for omitting key data once again in your rush to wail over your beloved Coco. -
Get some, Herc.
Yes, AICN's prestige in journalism isn't exactly fabulous, but every journalist should have integrity, regardless of who he writes for.
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Incompetence should never be rewarded.
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Apparently his musical guest tonight was fucking CREED playing WITH ARMS WIDE OPEN.
How can that much suck be contained in one mere studio? holy fuck. -
The front row of the Leno audience.
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Because what you're describing doesn't have much to back it up there. Conan doesn't plummet below Dave... Dave suddenly rockets up above Conan ( almost certainly coinciding with the blackmail scheme against him). Then, as time passes (and the Jay Leno show decimates the nightly line up) Conan falls off. As for the importance of the lead in, it's called audience retention and it's very important in network scheduling. A larger percentage of NBCs audience in this core demographic is watching NBC right up until the Jay Leno Tonight show comes on, and then bailing. If you have a much larger crowd gathered around the stage than did your opening act, and yet the difference evaporates as soon as they see its you up there, then you're not really any improvement at all, if not actively worse.
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It's been explained to the Leno supporters over and over again why ratings are tallied in this one demographic, or the delivered audience vs. retention rates of the shows, and now there is straight out raw data in the form of a chart that they could look at. Yet they'll always say that there is no way to interpret this as bad for Leno.One final analogy in honor of Jay: NBC' had a car that was getting pretty old, still it was reliable so they budgeted and planned to replace it with a new model a few years down the road. That time came, and the old car was still just as reliable, but they got the new car to replace it anyway. The new car had some quirks to work out to get it running perfectly (it had taken a couple of years to get the old car to the top of it's performance as well). However, suddenly NBC hit the worst weather conditions it had ever seen, and the new car was definitely not performing as well as the old car did in better weather. So NBC decided to abandon the new car at a loss, and pay an obscene amount of money to get their old car back, even though nobody else was looking to pick it up. The weather changed back to more favorable conditions, yet the old car wasn't running any better now than the new car had been during the worst of it. Now NBC was right back to where they started (worse, in fact), and would likely need another new car soon... Except they paid out a ton of money, and really can't afford to replace it for long, long time. Still, NBC convinces itself this is okay, because all of the folks at the retirement home where NBC's parents live think the old car is the bee's knees.
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18-49 doesn't matter as you well know, although you constantly try to make us think that it does, and your comparisons are incomplete and ludicrous at best. I know you want people to think that Leno is doing far worse than Conan but actually the opposite is true. The numbers are here www.tinyurl.cdgfr9io.
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How is the 11:30 janitor supposed to empty the trash if the 10:00 guy already did? You think middle America is watching any of these guys for their unique, intrinsic properties? Once they got their late night fix at 10, they were off to bed.
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Apr 24, 2010 9:55:32 AM CDT
You keep actin like viewers over 50 count for nothing at all
by coughlins laws
It's true, advertisers wieght viewers 18-49 more than any other demographic. But they don't just dismiss total viewers. If that were the case, how is it that Leno's Tonight Show has made Hundreds of Millions of dollars for the Network every single year? Plus, don't you think it's stupid to say that Conan was doing better when he got less viewers than Letterman and Leno gets 2 million more than Letterman? Your circular logic makes no sense. Usually people on this site don't care what evil corporations do or what numbers they look at. You think they're inherently evil. Now all of a sudden you think they have a right to just dismiss every human being over the age of 49 as irrelevant?
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Apr 24, 2010 10:03:35 AM CDT
That's another good point. I thought Conan was supposed
by coughlins laws
to be "the voice of the young people", and the voice of his generation. Yet he couldn't get better ratings than Leno, who supposedly only appeals to Old Farts? If anything, Herc, this article makes Conan look really bad, NOT Leno. If what you crybabies have been saying the last 6 months has been true, you'd think that Conan would have destroyed Leno's numbers in the 18-49 Demo. Well, he hasn't. At best he tied Leno, and was actually a couple points lower. And you also mean to tell me that Conan supporters are SOOOO STUPID they can't figure how to change the channel in a half hour after CSI ends to find what channel Conan is on? This article of yours, Herc, makes Conan fans seem pretty dumb to me...
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But I have to laugh at how this topic brings certain Talkbackers out of the woodwork to go on and on about their chosen hero, Jay Leno. It's fucking weird.
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He'll get a 200 million dollar bonus, because he ok's the 100 million dollar bonuses for the people that ok his 200 million dollar bonus
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Executives no longer get fired for ruining companies
They get huge bonuses and taxpayers bail the companies out because the tax base can't afford to have the companies fail and all those people out of work, not paying taxes
This is now considered a winning business strategy
Success through extortion -
Apr 24, 2010 10:34:41 AM CDT
Mr. Nice Gaius, it has nothing to do with loving Leno (I don't)
by coughlins laws
It has to do with the stupidity and hypocrisy of the very vocal and nasty minority who bitch and cry constantly about Conan's alleged misjustice, when in reality if they actually watched the guy, he never would've been canceled in the first place. Conan O'Brien is an above average comedy writer, but a horrible stand-up and below-average interviewer, yet alot of people here act like he's Johnny Carson, Larry David, and Merv Griffen all rolled into one. The guy could barely beat Craig Ferguson...
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Apr 24, 2010 10:43:20 AM CDT
Oh, and BTW Mr. Nice Gaius, I've probably posted more on this
by coughlins laws
site in the last 5 years than you have...
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Cant be said enough, you are the reason we cant have nice things. May God have mercy on your souls. And Michael Bay's.
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Younger people skew to the internet, if you dont think people watched clips your a bigger dumbass than we all think.
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Leno sucks. Letterman sucks. Conan was better than both. But, like it or not, the decision has been made and Herc's weird obssession with spinning Leno's ratings isn't going to bring CoCo back or convince anyone at NBC they made the mistake they did.
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You have the shittiest taste in comedy EVER if you like this pathetic waste of air. You also contain sub-standard intelligence.
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http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/3vk5
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Twas amazing. Never realized the full extent of his showmanship until yesterday.
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You're overthinking the scenario waaaay to much. It's very simple, and it has nothing to do with numbers, and everything to do with class, professionalism and respect. The bottom line is, it's a mega-douchebag move to hand over the reigns of your show to it's natural successor because you're retiring, then decide not to retire and torpedo his show by putting your own version of the same show on before his, then actually taking your original show back.It's unquestionably a douchebag move. Conan refused to take his old slot back because *that* would have been a douchebag move on Fallon. Anyone with the slighest shred of moral decency can tell it's a douchebag move. But then I'm pretty sure you're a republican, so moral highground may not really be your strong suit, or like many republicans, you're simply arguing something for the sake of arguing, because someone else being right about something is worse than death for you folks.So the bottom line is, regardless of ratings, Jay Leno made a sleazy choice to do a sleazy thing, and he's probably going to get shit for it for the rest of his life, and that's the bed he's made for himself.
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It is 'fucking weird' that there are people who vocally support Jay Leno. It's like 'vocally supporting' Funniest Home Videos circa Dave Coulier or the Police Chase videos they show on Fox. Sure I can understand if you watch it sometimes when it's on because there is nothing else on, or you are just in the mood to veg out and stare at the tv while you slip off to sleep, but the idea of someone standing up on a box and proclaiming their love of these things to the world, is at best bizarre, and at worst, disturbing.
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Quote: "I've probably posted more on this site in the last 5 years than you have..."You mean on this topic? Or on the site in general? Because if it's the former, you're probably right and that really says a lot about what you find interesting here. But if it's the latter, then you're talking out of your ass again as my overall participation on this site is easily more widespread than yours...and I don't even post like I used to back in the day.As for whether or not this "has nothing to do with loving Leno", I'd say that it has a bit more to do with what you prefer in terms of cultural conservatism. Every time you've commented on this "issue", you've seized it as an opportunity to knock Letterman and Conan for a perceived "liberalness" and defend Leno as some sort of bastion of "good comedy taste" who reflects the good, wholesome conservative audience you so clearly identify with.Sound about right? Thought so.
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I watched his show in the 90s when it was still fresh, but in the past decade have really only caught about a dozen full episodes. But I have enough taste to recognize things that are excruciatingly bland. My parents (in their 60s) love watching Jay Leno. You know what else they LOVE watching? Comedies where they make it look like live animals are talking.
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Agreed, sir.
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Your folks and my folks should get together sometime.
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They left Tonight Show in droves after conan took over, and started watching elsewhere. It will take Leno time to recoup what conan lost.
I personally like Conan more than Leno but not as much as Letterman. Conan is too nerdy for mainstream america. -
everyone killed Conan for putting up the same numbers that Leno is doing right now.
The best part is that Conan's numbers obviously would have grown cause he's younger and a billion times funnier than Jay. -
TBS will have me as a solid viewer for Conan!
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Apr 24, 2010 3:02:35 PM CDT
Leno is for old folks who also love Americas Funniest Home Video
by hb_dad
'nuff said
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The home of Tyler Perry and George "overrated" Lopez.
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Chewtoy, when I talk about Conan plummeting in the ratings and getting his ass kicked by Letterman, I'm referring to viewership. The chart is only comparing how the two fared in the 18-49 demo. This is why the media pounded NBC last summer over the move, since Conan was rapidly losing the Tonight Show's audience while Dave was suddenly #1 in late night for the first time in over a decade. It's also why NBC desperately tried to get everyone to focus SOLELY on the 18-49 demo, where the race was at least competitive. Yes, I realize the demo is the key number in terms of advertising. But when you're bleeding viewers and can't reach #1, a minor victory in the demo suddenly becomes less appealing. As I said, I love Conan but moving him to 11:30 in 2009 was never a good idea.
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can eat a big bag of dicks. I'm flabbergasted anyone can enjoy Leno's brand of paint-drying comedy. Or sit through his utterly bland and pathetic interviews, where Leno is forever desperate to get on his knees and suck A-list cock. Fuck this big-chin douche.
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GOOD!
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CONAN is nerdy? you sayin' jay is hip? seriously? ha ha ha ha ha
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Of course Herc is manipulating numbers. Are you new to this site???
When it comes to the Leno-Conan debate, Herc has about as much journalistic integrity as Pol Pot.
He whips out numbers which show that Leno is doing just about as well as Conan was doing in a key demographic that Conan was supposed to have been dominating, and one which Jay was supposed to have lost after the whole fiasco, and somehow that gets painted into a negative for Jay.
***Forget the fact that Jay has been beating Letterman in every other demographic consistently and comprehensively. Something that Conan was only able to do for a couple of weeks after he took over. Forget that Herc, that's not important*****
And then he goes on to mention that Conan never lost the 18-49 until Jay took over the 10pm spot in the Fall - as if Jay ever lost the demo when he was in the Late night spot for most of the 17 years that he's been beating Letterman(Forget also to mention the fact that by this time Conan had already managed to lose not just the number one spot in all night and had lost all the other demographics, but had dropped the show all the way to THIRD place in Late night ratings all on his own, with no Jay to blame. Forget that). So basically saying that Conan had managed not to trip over himself in that key demo despite losing everything else. So what? Are we supposed to give him a cookie for that? A gold star?
This is Herc's M.O.. He presents data only when and how it supports his not only stupid theories but also his childish hatred for Jay Leno. So for him not to present the true picture and then present what he does as if it's a negative for Jay Leno - even though objectively it's not - is not really a big surprise.
It's a good thing that several Talkbackers have already called him out for this shit on this board so far, because usually these Jay-Conan talkbacks tend to be mutual circle-jerk by Jay-bashers and Herc's little minions and butt-boys here. -
I'm not a Leno zealot. Conan never should've been given such a sweet deal. The suits who thought O'brien would usher in a 'new era of late night television' ultimately overestimated his broad appeal. I'm sure NBC expected a dropoff in audience after the host swtich but Ratings PLUMMETED and audience retention was in the toilet. Leno's show was doing horribly in it's slot and cancellation was imminent. The affiliates were going NUTS, many even threatening to break away and replace with their own programming. At some point NBC had to pull the plug on the endeavors, take it's losses and press on. How many programs are cancelled after 1 or 2 episodes? It's a simple business decision. Conan got paid. Leno got paid. NBC and the affiliates are at ease. Whats the problem?
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And FALLON STILL LIVES AHHAHAAH!
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The ratings chart the link goes to says 1.5 for Leno and 1.0 for Conan. Doesn't that translate to 50% higher ratings for Leno?
I'll watch either one. What is for certain is that this will go down as NBC committing one of the all time bad management moves in human history. -
Apr 25, 2010 9:52:43 AM CDT
Speaking of Talkbackers crawling out of the woodwork...
by mr. nice gaius
...Kai_Mah'gra...where ya been? Aside from your Marvel TB appearance, we thought you'd run off again after the bitch-slapping we gave you in that CAPRICA thread a few weeks back. Well, I guess if trolling Herc is all ya got...
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Apr 25, 2010 12:13:18 PM CDT
Mr. Nice Gaius, you insinuated that I've "come out of the woodwo
by coughlins laws
with the sole purpose of discussing this topic and that simply isn't true...
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Leno appeals to old people who like, safe, pedestrian comedy that expires as soon as the show goes off the air. Has no teeth, no legs, no movement, no forethought, no relevancy no nothing.
Conan appeals to us nerds who like something edgy, satiracal, biting, cheeky, bawdy and yes, memorable. I can name countless funny moments in Conan's past from his Late Night days and NONE on Leno---ever. The difference between the two is that Conan makes funny happen, and Leno's best bits, if you can call them that, have NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. Why would anyone support a hack like that? I know, retards without a sense of humor. I'd hate to see Leno supporters DVD collections, I suspect there would be a lot of "Home Improvement" box sets, "Are We there Yet?" and Paul Riser stand-up routines. -
... or more accurately, an embryo. Like other lower lifeforms, Jay reproduces by budding.
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Well, then let me amend that by also insinuating that you come out of the woodwork for the occassional LOST TB and anything involving Sarah Palin.
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......Herc's butt-boys, or should I say Lemmings. Flip the switch like a trigger and they automatically and spasmodically begin attacking Leno like they're on some kind of high - with others desperate for attention and a response.
Oh, and the hilarity of watching someone bash another talkbacker for not spending all his waking moments posting on Talkbacks in an nondescript film site or responding to his almost clingy attention-seeking taunts - while at the same time boasting to yet another talkbacker about being some kind of a posting champion on these boards while bigging up the fact that he seems to have no life outside posting here - whereas the rest of us, actually, you know, live our lives. But I supposed one would actually have to have a life first, to actually live it.
It's oddly embarrassing yet still fascinating and amusing at the same time to watch them go -
rest of show = crap. the least sincere interviewer ever. johnny carson could run circles around him from the grave.
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I thought it appropriate to get a laugh in a way that aintitcoolers would understand
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People who still try to use that "But I have a life!" defense on AICN. It's almost as sad as watching someone troll Herc (the site's easiest target)...or claiming that THE DARK KNIGHT would have a poor opening weekend.The combination of hathos and pathos is quite fascinating.
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