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STAR WARS EPISODE TWO: Location Scouting In Italy
SPOILER ALERT !!
IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT STAR WARS EPISODE II, THEN GO AWAY. THE LOCATIONS MAY GIVE YOU CLUES TO THINGS YOU MIGHT PREFER NEVER TO OF HEARD. SPOILERS...
Hey folks, Hollywood Reporter is reporting on some location scouting that is allegedly going on in Italy at the moment. It seems that the Caserta Royal Palace that was used in Episode One would again be used in the second chapter. There is also mention that McCallum has been checking out a Franciscan Convent near Assisi that may serve as a temple for Siths. Yes, that is plural. And also it seems that McCallum has been visiting Mt Vesuvius.. for a possible dueling location. In addition they claim a love scene may very well be shot at the Caserta Palace's Italianate Gardens. So... Take it as you will, the Hollywood Reporter is generally rock solid... But with all things Lucasfilm, you must leave room for uncertainty. He changes his mind... often.
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There was a lot of talk about Yoda showing us his Jedi skills in the next film. Well, I've recieved information about the whereabouts and the method. Seemingly it's going to take place in the palace of the Siths and Obi Wan is going to pick him (Yoda) up and swing him like a cricket bat. His razor sharp Jedi ears will spin off (seemingly they're grow back ones...) like Ninja stars, except they'll glow in the dark, and kill many an evil Sith. There's already been some controverse about the merchandising. Seemingly the States want to ban the "Yoda 'glow in the dark' ears of death"...because the sharp points could knock out a kids eye.
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er i know we've all been making jokes about yoda jicking ass , but i'd like to know when in ep 1 yoda says there are always 2 sith and lucas said one of the main reasons for killing darth maul was to highlight sidious' problem of finding training and keeping apprentices, why everyone seems to think there will be lots of sith to fight?
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I mean what kind of spoliers is it to say there are going to be impressive looking buildings in E2?? The only thing that could be considered a spoiler was the fact of the siths plural thing. After all we all thought that Anakin was probably the next Sith Apprentice, and I thought there could only be two at a time? Interesting! As for the volcano duel, I've seen that mentioned before ... *** POTENTIAL SPOILERS ***
I heard that OB1 and Anakin end up having a duel in the middle of a volcano. It would be a great epic battle at the end of the film and OB1 would eventually cause Anakin the damage that leads to the Vader suit and Helmet. Presumably he chucks him in the lava or something!
***SPOILERS END***
As for the yoda kicking ass thing, I think the only way to not make it a comedy piece is to have him using his jedi powers to move a lightsaber or 'push' people away. -
Okay, so at least some of the film will be on Naboo. As for Mt Vesuvius? Hey, I thought the volcano duel would be in Episode III. Well, McCallum may just be thinking ahead. As for a temple for the Sith - well, a monastery sounds just about right. **** www.homestead.com/vertigofilms/
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OK, this whole thing about there only being two Sith. That's not what Yoda actually said.
"Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" (or something along those lines).
That doesn't mean the same as "There can only ever be two Sith at any one time". Think about it.
What it could mean is "There was one Sith, so there has to be another, because they always come in pairs, a master and an apprentice". There can be as many Sith as Lucas wants, as long as they're paired up. -
...PLEASE chuck Jar
Jar into that
goddamned volcano,
and film it! So we
can all watch him die
horribly. Thank you. -
I'm back, anyway enough of your pleasentries.
I have no comments on Ep 2 because I am suffering some burnout. I just hope Lucas works on the script and editing, let us get more involved.
The editing in TPM wasn't great.
We were not allowed to get a feel of the landscapes, everything was too short, with the exception of the Pod Race.
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I gotta admit, I loved Ep 1. I did, it made me feel like a kid again. Yeah, Jar JAr was annoying, but for me, no more than the damn ewoks. A necessary evil if you're gonna make a kids movie. I'm excited about EP 2. I can see why other people disliked it, but the level of negativity continues to amaze me. I wonder if people just aren't letting themselves go enough, or if expectations were simply too high. Who knows. Nor do I think that Lucas is the money hungry capitalist wealth-monger he's being made out to be. I think he was rusty, and has a bit of a power trip. But so do many directors - Hell, Cameron has an ego with no bounds, and I thought Titanic was pretty goofy. It comes down to "will he correct his mistakes". If so, great. If not, well I'll probably still like it. Well, I guess I'll just hope for the best for the next round.
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Sure George says he won't do a sequel trilogy because he'll be too old and he wouldn't allow anybody else to do it. But he'll be dead someday, and his heirs (children) will probably commission, and maybe oversee production of, a sequel Trilogy done by other filmmakers. Otherwise, if his heirs don't exercise their rights to use the Star Wars trademarks and copyrights, they can fall into the public domain after the copyright expires. Now George could do something really crazy: Require his lawyers to destroy every negative print of all 6 Star Wars upon his death, but the way digital technology with filmmaking is headed, that probably wouldn't matter either. I predict, in due time when the technology becomes affordable, online fans will simply organize together on the Net (or Internet2?) to write, produce and animate their own Star Wars tales, either by incorporating some live action footage or doing it all comletely in utterly convincing CG. If this sounds outrageous, consider the quality of those South Park Episode I trailer parodies: I believe if (or when) South Park gets cancelled, online fans of the show could get together, write new episodes and animate them themselves with as good, if not better, a quality as the original. And let's not forget the amazing Troops parody, too. Yeah, George, we won't need you someday, and he knows it and that's what scares him. Someday we'll be able to delete out BOTH Jar Jar and the Ewoks and instantly redistribute the new versions. Imagine "Return of the Jedi: The AICN Edition." Yeah, the future looks great.
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i did not mind jar jar binks one bit. now do not post colourful yet crude ways that i should suffer and die.when i first saw him at 12 midnight i didnt mind him at all. then everyone started their kill fest for the gungan and when i saw tpm again i saw some of the faults that, for me, would of remained unnoticed. so instead i am going to my original unpopular opinion that their aint nothin wrong with jar jar binks...and where did that talkbacker go that used to talk like jar jar? did one of u star wars sickos actually do good on one of your threats?? yikes! baff...nono wait!! i just read over my post and before you move on let me just say this: i do not think he is beneficial for the movie, not from the point of view of the audience that im in, but the only crime he commited to me was just being a waste of space since he had no purpose in the movie. baff.
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I don't think it's much of a stretch to have many Sith. Vader, Sidious and Maul are/were Lords of the Sith. It's make sense that there were other Sith they were lords over, wouldn't it? Sith assasins, Sith bookies, Sith pimps, Sith politicians, Sith boxing promoters.... These are not nice people we're talking about! Seriously, it's entirely conceivable that there are many levels/classes or Sith operatives, but only two Sith LORDS. :-)
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Sep 24, 1999 7:20:26 AM CDT
Dicks (Who won't read my post because it's too long to appeal to
by unclesam
I've been sitting at the side, watching all sorts of people seethe about their disappointment with The Phantom Menace. Now, I saw the movie fives times. The first time, yeah, I was disappointed. But I got to thinking about it, and I realized that it was my problem, and not something that was wrong with the film.
You know, you all need to give it a rest. There is no difference between the content or mood or marketing of any of the Star Wars films. Primarily, the films are nothing more than an SF spin on the old, serialized action films of the first few decades of moviemaking. The plots are simple, and they are directed not primarily at adults, but at everyone. A New Hope had all sorts of stuff in it about an Emperial Senate and the Old Republic, but most of us were little kids back then. How many four year olds give a fuck about the Emperial Senate? It's good guys against bad guys, not politics. Star Wars characters don't have complicated motives behind their actions: they're either good, or evil, and that's all that's needed to understand what is going on. George Lucas constructed his stories around the most basic aspects of mythology; things that could be followed by cavemen.
But, like Darth Vader, wide-eyed little kids have grown up to be assholes. Why should George Lucas change everything about his movies? In an argument above, some clown states that Lucas should be mindful of his fans, and then goes on to accuse the guy of being a money-minded capitalist. Gee, guy, that's a sensible argument. A true filmmaker is an artist, and a true artist works from his own visions, not from their fans. An artist produces things for himself. Lucas has been fortunate to make money, but only because he constructed a solid piece of entertainment that has appealed to CHILDREN and adults for 22 years. Yes, the commercialism of anything is related to capitalism, but is that Lucas' fault? He got lucky, dude.
Anyway, what were people expecting from Jar-Jar Binks? Nothing in the promotion of the film was designed to lead anywhere from his true nature. If you can't laugh at him, then you should leave. He's a simple comedic device, just like the droid torture chamber in Jabba'a palace. Everything he did had the same exaggerated way about it as did the actions of silent-era comedians, just as Lucas has explained. He's a cartoon; he's a goofy guy, and little kids laughed at him. He IS just like Roger Rabbit, and for a reason. Maybe people were expecting something like Adam Sandler in a frog suit. Who knows?
If people, for the length of a film, cannot drop their cynicism and self-absorption, and everything else that the -
I think what is really needed to give star wars a good kick up the arse is to hand over the directing reigns to somebody else. Lucas could still keep a close eye on proceedings (of course), any suggestions for the next director?
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get of the leo thing sszero :) he is WAY TOO small for anakin.and harry is stupid he wouldn't be ripping off the matrix, he'd be expanding on the scene from blade where wesley snipes tries to shoot stephen dorff.....same thing.just expanded and with added vapour trails.....
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. . . for being the new offensive prick on the talkback. Everyone else was being relatively polite, so I guess you had to fill in the void. Freedom of opinion, knucklehead. And did I miss a fucking meeting? When did using "communist" as an insult come back into style? Jesus, what a lame-ass post that was. Devoid of any sort of constructive criticism, good grammar, direction or, really, point. I'm trying to stay away from being an attacker on the talkback, but when people use this forum as an excuse to vomit up their undeveloped and pointlessy angry opinions, it really gets my goat, whatever that means. . .
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Ok, rather than pander to the petty arguing let me put in my 2 cents. Based on the information at hand (including the facts, script treatments I have read and my fairly reliable gossip rescources) I put forth thr following Hypothesis. There is in existence a religious order of priests devoted to the sith which are not talented in the force but rather study and keep records and what have you of sith teachings and are subservient to Sidious. It is these sith "preists/monks" which retrieve Anakin's body from the lava and equip him with his suit which turns him into Darth Vader. Hence, the use of a Sith monastery where there may be many Siths who are entirely subservient to the Sith Lords. I do not think Lucas will go so far as introduce numerous Sith LORDS but certainly their followers. Remember the creepy dudes talking to the emperor in ROTJ when Vader enters? Or perhaps these guys became the royal guards in the red suits, in which though not talented in the ways of the force they could certainly be a force to be reconed with, esp with a lord to back them up. Yet another possiblility in which Yoda and the other Jedi whip up on Sith Lords is a flashback which would explain how Sidious slipped through the cracks. Despite Lucas's spurious dialogue, he was better at story detail in EP1 than anyone gives him credit for. Well those are my thoughts, tak'em or leav'em.
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now yes, it's possible that to become a sith lord you have to defeat all the other potential sith lords in combat,it would explain how darth maul got to be such a good fighter, but lucas is quite specific about the two sith at a time thing.....and let's face it even with the jedi gone the emperor and vader would surely have been recruiting lots of "sith" in the original trilogy if there were supposed to be more than just two.remember luke had to kill vader to become a sith lord and vader wanted him to kill the emperor so they could be the "2".........
now you jar jar hating guys should go to the library and look up the reviews for the original trilogy.apart from the swearing they are exactly the same as what you're saying now. it's hillarious..replace the words jar jar with "ewoks" ,"yoda", "c3po", "r2d2" and you've got the reviews.... the media/adults hated them the comic relief characters .they though they were just there to sell toys., and complained that they turned the films into kids movies..... it shows what the problem is jar jar isn't the problem you're the problem he eminds you you've made a series of films aimed at children one of your favourite things in the world, and you don't like it..... my niece loves jar jar.you couldn't get her to say anything other than "HOW RUDE" for weeks. i don't mind him at all . some of my mates can't stand him, but humour is like that, you find it funny or you don't... -
Granted, Phantom Menace was no Empire, but it was still a decently enjoyable yarn that fulfilled its purpose of (a) introducing the characters (b) setting up Palpatine's rise and Anakin's fall and (c) being a happy-go-lucky space opera, just as Lucas promised. If I were making the movie, I probably wouldn't have put Jar Jar in it, but as someone previously noted, I wouldn't have put the Ewoks in ROTJ either. Yes, Jar Jar's ex-squeeze me was anachronistic, but so was Chewbacca yodeling the Tarzan cry in ROTJ. My point is, TPM was no worse than ROTJ, and I'm sure half the people loathing Lucas right now liked the hell out of ROTJ when it came out. Besides, you can't deny TPM its fun moments - the saber duel, the Senate chamber, the Jedi buddy movie intro.
Let's all just take a deep breath, and see what Lucas does with Ep. 2. Until we see the line he's trying to draw, it's rather unfair to lambast him for much of anything...including having a tin ear. The subject matter for the next one is richer, and I for one think the naysayers will return in droves and want to speculate wildly about Ep. 3...well, at least I hope so. -
CALM DOWN eternal. we aint saying everybody should like tpm, and it's the people who treat star wars as a religion that don't like tpm. what we're responding to is the specific criticisms of people on the talkbacks, who seem to forget that the movies are made for kids....if you say you don't like jar jar because he is like a kids movie character then you're missing the point. he is a kids movie character.however if you just don't like the film that's fine. i know people who don't like the matrix and i know people who love it they all have reasons....but if people start complaining that they don't like it because it has violence you have to call them on it and say well its a mature film....all my friends over 15 prefer antz to a bugs life because there is more in it for them, all my relatives and friends under 9 prefer a bugs life because it's simpler and funnier for them. i'm not gonna sceam and swear at disney for not puttting enough adult stuff in a little kids movie . ...............and think on this. if lucas had had confidence when he made star wars that he would get to do the sequals. chewie wouldn't have been in it....would we then all be complaining about the ,cute furry ,merchandise friendly , giant teddy bears called wookies who turn up half way through rotj and ruin the film???????? it could've been that way and i bet you would've hated that too!
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Montag606, don't give yourself too much fucking credit. We've had assholes on this site for quite some time, it's not like you're blazing a new trail here. At least guys like Sarin Rufus have the occasional interesting point, whereas you have nothing but the pathetic ravings of an attention-craving six-year-old who can't color inside the lines. You want to be insulting and irritating, that's fine by me. But I'll warn you now. . . after about two or three more posts, you'll be doomed to the same fate that so many other weak-ass naysayers have been doomed to: to be completely ignored as the idiotic, pointless baby you appear to be. Throw some good points in there, have something useful to say, or at *least* make your commentary interesting. 'cuz you know what? It's already boring the shit out of me.
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I read through all the posts on this page. When did this degenerate into another pointless "TPM SUCKS" battle. If you didn't like it, fine, I dont care, I liked it. So what? Sure, Jar Jar was annoying, but little kids love him, so thats okay. The lightsaber fights kicked ass. Ian McDiarmid ruled. But people who liked it shouldn't get mad at those who didn't and say that they're wrong. I for one, hated the Matrix. I loved Alien 3. I think Sam Raimi is the greatest director. Do these things mean I'm stupid? FUCK NO. I got 1350 on my SAT's, I've tested to a 156 IQ. I just have particular tastes. Thats all it boils down to, a matter of taste. TPM is done, lets move on. ------Anyway, back to this article. I really hope that it is true. Whoever (i forgot) said that the Sith Monestary would have followers not strong in the Force, thats a good idea. Mt. Vesuvius would be a great place to film a battle. I think many would agree that the lightsaber battle at the end of TPM is the greatest in all the movies, so think about what GL has in store for the "epic" battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Also, remember in ROTJ that Obi-Wan says that Anakin became Darth Vader when he turned to the Dark Side. I for one think that we'll see "Darth Vader" before we ever see him in his armor. Oh well.
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I think what says it all is the way the critics expressed their disapproval of the movie. Their crude, crass comments convey their mentality level, so it's impossible for me to take anything they say seriously. Don't get me wrong, I can curse a blue streak, but time and circumstances warrant it, and this is not one of those places.
*stepping off soap box*
Now, to the subject at hand:
I just finished the novelization of TPM, and it explains the sith "only two" philosophy, and I have the feeling that it will be explained more when Sidious is recruiting Anakin. When the council explains that the sith order was eradicated, they didn't know that one lord, Darth Bane, survived the purge, and came up with a new philosophy. The dark side is inherently greedy, and there was a constant power struggle among members, and that led to their last downfall. Therefore, if you keep the numbers down, there will be less of a chance for infighting or getting noticed. So, the idea that has kept the sith around for the last 1000 or so years, is to have only two, and when the time is right, they will try to overthrow everything, and take over. Now with palpatine (sidous) in control of the government, the time is right to move on taking over. Who the apprentice is might not matter so much, but the prophets forsaw one who would bring balance to the force. They never said which side might need balancing.
The book also gave an insight to how powerful Maul really was, and when McCallum says "Siths" he might just mean two. We might even see sidious do some fighting in the next movie. Or, knowing that the Clone Wars are coming up, there could be jedi clones that don't work out as planned. -
In SW:EI-TPM, I laughed at the planetary blockade aliens with their Asian accents (and round eyes within which are slanted amphibian ones...oh yeah, and when they speak English, their mouth movements don't match the sounds - just like those poorly dubbed Hong Kong kung fu films). I even get only a little crazy at the Jar Jar Tongue Candy (basically, you have a plastic Jar Jar and depressing a switch on the candy causes his mouth to open and a lollipop-esqe treat - IN THE SHAPE OF HIS TONGUE
- to protrude slightly, so you in essence have to french kiss Jar Jar to eat the candy). And the Japanese started marketing Star Wars curry, and I don't even want to know what goes into that.
With some measure of difficulty, I can overlook the whole "chosen one"/Christ theme of Anakin's miracle birth. I am intrigued by Amidala/Padme's surrogate mother role with Anakin, knowing that they will eventually become lovers (older woman/younger man action). I chortled with glee to see Senator Palpatine manipulating the bureaucracy to get himself in position to one day become the
Emperor, and his statement that he will keep a close watch on young Anakin's progress. One big thing did bother me: the blood sample test to determine your Force Factor? Little single-celled symbiotes in cellular matter as a link to the Force? That was pretty gawdawful. Why ruin the mystery? Why does everything need to be explained, through countless crappy knockoff novels, comic books, video games, etc.? Why not take Anakin, stick him in a big centrifuge, suck out his meta-whatevertheywerecalled,
and inject yourself with pure Force cells, sort of like blood doping? And how, thinking back to Yoda's instuctions on Dagobah, does this bond Luke to a rock,
an inorganic substance which I can't see these little one-celled creatures living in? This business with explaining the Force? Disappointment sets in.
Oh well, I look forward to seeing the seduction of cute Anakin (and I hope Leo DiCaprio doesn't get the part) by the Dark Side and his transformation in Darth Vader. When he tells Qui-Gon that he's going to visit all the planets out in space, little does he realize that he will do so...just as the iron fist of the Empire. -
has everyone forgotten that lucas gave the sequals to other directors, why is the idea of someone else directing ep2 and ep3 being touted like it's some kind of revelation. luca isn't a bad director when it comes to actors he is just different and old fashioned. he makes old fashioned movies.indiana jones and star wars, and he likes his actors to act in an old fashioned way, it works, some ppeople don't like it but the amount of money the films have made suggest it works. as far as i know in july of this year lucas hadn't written a script, for eps 2+3 or even a treatment so ii don't know what people think leo has read....he has the story of course but that's a long way from a working script.....and as the movies are being shot back to back, i think it will be hard to tell which rumours will fit which film....
and for all those people who'll find it neccessary to swear at me. i don't think george lucas is god and neither does he. he isn't a good screenplay writer and he knows it. read and interview with him...he gave the story of the sequals to star was to other to write the screenplayS, AND ALL THE INDIAN JONES FILMS HAD OTHER PEOPLE WRITE THE SCREENPLAYS...he wanted kasdan to write the screenplay for tpm, but he couldn't so he did it himself. . if lucas listened to fans yoda would not be in any films c3po would be dead/destroyed and we'd have to have an explaination of how exactly you can fly from one side of the galaxy to the other in a couple of hours at what appears to be the speed of light.(in the films guys not the geeks 'r' us technical manuals e.t.c -
I just wanted to add a little clarification to the beginning of my last post
If you didn't like it, that is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I have no problem with that. I personally enjoyed it, I thought it was great. I went in taking Jar-Jar with a grain of salt, knowing he was for kids.
If it was so bad in your opinion, why are you bothering to post about it? You're not going to be able to change it, chances are your insightful comments won't reach Lucas, and if they did, I doubt he would even shed a single tear. The bottom line is: If you didn't like it...let it go. -
It's not that he was one of my favorite characters, but I don't think it was intended for adults. Remember this movie was targeted at all ages, and I think little kids would get bored with all the dialogue and Senate conferences so you need something to keep them entertained. The character Jar Jar was for kids and for the older people it was Darth Maul. True that Maul wasn't in the movie much, but remember Star Wars is for kids too, most of us experienced Star Wars at a young age.
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the way i rember it in lucas's story the wookies were on endor but he never thought he'd get that far so he put chewie in star wars , and by that meant it wouldn't really have worked having a planet full of wookies because we'd allready seen they were technologically advanced......see mt earlier post dude...
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Wow, that's a lot of crap for location scouting. I can't wait for real news to see what you people can come up with. My 2bits on PM, while I liked the film I felt it did lack an overall style and coolness...oh well, there's still LOTR!
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Sep 24, 1999 9:28:20 AM CDT
another episode of SW to put another episode of the Matrix to sh
by adnt13!
Man, this is great, we got the fans and the anti-fans. The true fans are the ones that remember all the silly shit like Han talking to Leia in that cool 70's slang ("Look sister,...), empire? as dark as that movie was, you still had the shit for the kids, you had the Luke/Leia kiss that wasnt "adult" but silly ass kid shit followed up with the "Laugh it up fuzzball" and other classic adult words like "scruffy looking nerfhearder", then ofcourse Return of the Jedi, that was real adult wasnt it? Man, you guys need to really wake the fuck up. all those movies were made mainly for kids who would understand that ageless theme of right and wrong. No matter how much you want to believe different. Uncle Sam has the point, we (including all you jaded Matrix lovers) were just lil kids back then, watch those movies again like you had never seen them before and you'll still find the cheezy-ness! It hasnt changed except for the fact that your older now and you require different things for your entertainment. Shit, look at how many of you hated TPM and loved that Trenchcoat mafia movie (Matrix)! That movie ate cold dog dick yet you all loved it! It was stupid, cheezy, underacted, underdesigned, etc etc...but you loved it nonetheless, now you come in here and criticize SW just because you personaly expected something else. Fuck that, its exactly the same as the rest! As for Lucas losing his strength, thats just a bunch of bullshit. Atleast he doesnt jack his ideas from gap commercials nor does he pick his soundtracks from the wackest MTV (eMpty Vision) trends! Talk about an artist in the true sense of the word. It scares me to see that so many people are clueless as to what integrity means...maybe thats why this culture is stinking so bad, it can only criticize and respond to what the most popular trends dictate. You are a great audience. Marketing groups love this generation! (your children will eat you)
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Ok...I hope we can put this subject to rest soon...it's been discussed enough...Jar Jar was put in their to solidify the movie's appeal to ALL ages, not just to the ego-centric whinings of other gen-xers. The movies are for everyone, not people like us between the ages of 18-35. Sometimes things need to be addressed at a larger target. I mean, seriously, did he really screw up the plot? It's not like he put a purple dinosaur in it or anything. If he did any more to cater to the male 18-35 range, he would have had topless dancers and Darth Chanler, Lady Monica, and Obi-Wan Ka-Joey, and his side kick, the young padawan Ross...come one...thing outside your spectrum
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"If this was a talkback about the stupid Matrix (the Gap Movie) sequels, none of you stupid ass Limp Bizqit (or whatever) morons would be mentioning anything about the W. Brothers being "Money Grubbing Capitalist Scum". You know why? Because your'e all a bunch of cockliking coward hippocrites!! Wow!! how brave of you to always attack a EP2 talkback but never point the finger at the GAP movie sequels. I can't wait for the next Gap movie talkback so that while you're all masturbating to the news about Keanu and his stupid leather trenchcoat I'll turn the talkback section into a fucking horror show. That's a promise for all you spoiled armchair communist brats."
OK, that's your original post, Montag606. First, if you look at MY original post, you'll see that I LIKED the Phantom Menace. Second, my problem with the above is that you suffer from the same problem other posters suffer from - you're incapable of making a point w/o calling everyone (and I quote) "cockliking coward hippocrites", "armchair communist brats". etc. It's constructive, it's destructive, derivative, and not to mention pointless. Third, you ARE trying to be offensive: "I promise I will do my damnest to offend the hell out of anyone who cares enough to get offended. Freedom of opinion is great but it is not the same as freedom from having to justify your rationale, fuckface. " OK? I'm sorry for pissing everyone off, but I'm tired of seeing these posts degenerate into idiotfests, where we do nothing but bitch at each other, and taking it to personal levels. You can criticize people's ideas without criticizing the person. It's called RESPECT. It's something that Montag606 is displaying a serious LACK of. In your last post you finally made some good points about TPM, points which I agreed to. I just don't see why it has to involve being such a jerk to everyone who disagrees with you. Believe me, when I started posting here (only about a month ago), I did the same thing, I was acting like a fucking junior high school kid and insulting everyone I could find. And I regret it now, because this is a forum on ideas and thoughts, and I inadvertantly turned it into a brawl. It was a waste of my and everyone else's time. Which, ironically, this is too. Whoops, guess I did it again. Anyway, my point is made. Whether it's agreed to or not, well, whatever. I'm sorry for this being so long, and for bothering anyone who was bothered.
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thanks for the support montag, ...i said in another post that luc besson doesn't do director for hire...but he does love star wars..and i think he's free. it'd be cool........and for those who need futher proof of the old fashioned directing style thing, look at all the wipes and iris type thing in all four movies.straight out of the early years of hollywood..
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I goofed a line there - it should say "it's NOT constructive". And I also want to say - that *is* an interesting point about old-fashioned directing. And as for the Jar JAr thing, I agree with those who say it's a generational thing - the kids loved it, hell, my girlfriend loved him, though I am a bit disappointed in her for it ;-) Anyway, Jar-JAr was sort of a necessary evil. Yeah, he was annoying, but I thought it was nice to put something in for the kiddies. It's akin to animated movies which have references that only adults would get. It's to make the movie more accessible.
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I would just like to point out to all of you folks whining about Lucas never going to get around to episodes 7, 8 and 9 and how he's ignoring his fans, etc. etc... THERE NEVER WAS ANY EPISODES 7-9. This rumour has just taken on a life of its own over the years. Basically, after Jedi, folks kept asking about more movies, and Lucas said something to the effect of "yeah, I've got the whole back story fleshed out, and I could do ep. 1-3" but the media kept bugging him, asking But what about SEQUELS? and eventually Lucas just said something like, "yeah, I guess I could do a third trilogy eventually." All this nonsense about how the story was originally 9 parts is just that, nonsense. It was pretty clear back in '83 and the whole thing was reiterated in that Vanity Fair interview a year and half ago. And another thing- to everybody whining about the Christ theme of Anakin having no father. It's NOT A CHRISTIAN THING! Star Wars has always drawn on themes from mythology across cultures and time, and the idea of immaculate conception is widespread.
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All us good Matrix and Star Wars fans in a circle jerk.
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Who says Yoda can't kick some butt? My guess is that he's like the Tonberrys in Final Fantasy. He just stands there, letting everyone whack the crap out of him and taking it like it's nothing, then walks up to them and sticks a knife in their guts. Make that a lightknife. One-hit kills and a lot of patience. That's Yoda's bag.
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For all you fans of Star Wars Pt. 4 (it is the fourth, dammit, even though people now refer to it as the "first" -- very clever how Lucas avoided the whole "Police Academy Part 15" trap), I would suggest a little experiment. Sit down with #2 (ESB), some paper and a pen and make a little log of your reactions during the movie. Note how you felt when the AT-ATs first appeared out of the snowstorm. Describe your reaction to that glimpse of Vader without his helmet, the Falcon's escape from the "tunnel," Luke's discussions with Yoda, and, finally, the fight between Luke & Darth, with the bombshell at the end. Now do the same with TPM. Does ANYTHING in TPM make you feel EVEN REMOTELY like you felt watching ESB? My guess is, when you compare the films head to head, the difference will be startlingly clear.
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Sep 24, 1999 10:25:31 AM CDT
I enjoyed TPM, AND I though Jar Jar was the worst character I've
by insectopia
Just because someone doesn't like Jar Jar doesn't mean they can't like the movie, or didn't "get it." I saw the movie three times, and every time i came out saying "wow, that was star wars, awesome!" At the same time, however, I hated Jar Jar each time. His voice was demeaning, he wasn't funny AT ALL, and he surved no purpose to the plot. I'm not saying that star wars movies shouldn't appeal to kids (they should appeal to everyone, that's what makes the originals so great). If Jar Jar had been done better, I wouldn't have had a problem with him. But I personally think Jar Jar is the worst character in any movie I have ever seen. Just because something is made for kids, doesn't mean it has to suck. People who liked Jar Jar, I don't know what you saw, but if you enjoyed him that's great for you. But don't say that if people hated him, they didn't get the point of the movie.
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ok is it fair to compare tpm with with one of the finest films ever made......try the same test with rotj. now i've done the test and i did it when i watched my nieces reation.she has grown up in an enviroment where her mum and grandmother hate sci fi. and are allways having a go( in a fun way) at her grandad for watching startrek e.t.c so she didn'y think she liked sci-fi..i tell you she was transfixed .....she found some of the talking a bit much , especially the subtitled stuff. but she loved it....so hear is the answer to your test..
the arrival at gungan city the lightsabre through the blastshield(you know you loved it) the podracers and the race, the battledroids attacking the gungans, the 3way lightsabre duel, possibly the finest sequence in movie history( thrill action wise)especially when you trow in the duel of the fates ......qui-gons's samurai twirl as he puts his lightsabre in it's niche as he turns it off...darth maul attacking qui-gon from his cycle(i hope we get the uncut version of that in the d.v.d)and the "bigger fish"...empire is still the best but tpm was a good movie and more people liked than not....for those that didn't fair enough, but was it truly so bad you wanted your money back..was it batman and robin?????? -
Sep 24, 1999 10:50:33 AM CDT
The Matrix was great, but it was an entirely different type of f
by unclesam
I've been sitting at the side, watching all sorts of people seethe about their disappointment with The Phantom Menace. Now, I saw the movie fives times. The first time, yeah, I was disappointed. But I got to thinking about it, and I realized that it was my problem, and not something that was wrong with the film. You know, you all need to give it a rest. There is no difference between the content or mood or marketing of any of the Star Wars films. Primarily, the films are nothing more than an SF spin on the old, serialized action films of the first few decades of moviemaking. The plots are simple, and they are directed not primarily at adults, but at everyone. A New Hope had all sorts of stuff in it about an Emperial Senate and the Old Republic, but most of us were little kids back then. How many four year olds give a fuck about the Emperial Senate? It's good guys against bad guys, not politics. Star Wars characters don't have complicated motives behind their actions: they're either good, or evil, and that's all that's needed to understand what is going on. George Lucas constructed his stories around the most basic aspects of mythology; things that could be followed by cavemen. But, like Darth Vader, wide-eyed little kids have grown up to be assholes. Why should George Lucas change everything about his movies? In an argument above, some clown states that Lucas should be mindful of his fans, and then goes on to accuse the guy of being a money-minded capitalist. Gee, guy, that's a sensible argument. A true filmmaker is an artist, and a true artist works from his own visions, not from their fans. An artist produces things for himself. Lucas has been fortunate to make money, but only because he constructed a solid piece of entertainment that has appealed to CHILDREN and adults for 22 years. Yes, the commercialism of anything is related to capitalism, but is that Lucas' fault? He got lucky, dude. Anyway, what were people expecting from Jar-Jar Binks? Nothing in the promotion of the film was designed to lead anywhere from his true nature. If you can't laugh at him, then you should leave. He's a simple comedic device, just like the droid torture chamber in Jabba'a palace. Everything he did had the same exaggerated way about it as did the actions of silent-era comedians, just as Lucas has explained. He's a cartoon; he's a goofy guy, and little kids laughed at him. He IS just like Roger Rabbit, and for a reason. Maybe people were expecting something like Adam Sandler in a frog suit. Who knows? If people, for the length of a film, cannot drop their cynicism and self-absorption, and everything else that the
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"NO PLOT, NO PURPOSE, AND NO FUCKING REASON TO EXIST AS A MOVIE " oh please. this is doo doo. All criticism and personal opinions aside, that is such a false statement. Most people who hate it for other than jar jar purposes talked about how it had too much plot and purpose! How can you say that when this movie was such a building block for all future episodes? TPM was ALL STORY! ALL INFORMATION! And this goes to the ESB comparison, when I sat in that theater watching PM I totally felt the same awe in so much of that movie, theres a lot of the star wars universe that we all know mostly via being geeks, all the side info that we are aware of from non-movie refernces, etc..There was so much detail and information in that movie! I've only seen it 3 times and I feel like everytime I see it I see new details and things that I hadnt seen before! Lucas is so subtle that a lot of it goes over peoples heads! I think thats the case in point, you can diss this movie all you want on Jar Jar, and the whole christianity thang whatever, but if you're gonna dis it make some valid points!
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Sep 24, 1999 11:06:59 AM CDT
The Matrix was great, but it was an entirely different type of f
by kahn
this is the part of the talkback I love best. The one where i can state my OPINION. Now, Ive been sitting on the sidelines and have watched all of this babble over TPM and yea, I thought most of the anti SW shit was all Whiny "Waaa! jar jar! Waaa! too kiddie! Waaa! I need something to bitch about!" damn. I know, I know, thats your opinion, I know that already, but seriously..now debate involving the Matrix? How could anyone compare the 2? Its like comparing oranges to putrid rotten bananas! Montag and Adnt hit it on the freakin head with "The gap movie" and "The Trenchcoat mafia movie"! Now theres a movie that truly sucks(ed)! Im no "George can do no wrong" guy,(Lord, look at willow) but I dont get this whole SW sucks attitude from the same people who loved the gap movie, it immediately disqualifies any validity to your opinion. Sorry, you lose! SW:ep1.TPM=1 Matrix=0
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Another thing I don't understand is why people say that if you criticize TPM, you're not a "real fan." Trekkies HATED the first Star Trek movie when it came out, because it sucked. They loved the second one ("Khaaaaaaaann!)" because it was true to the Star Trek spirit. No one claims that to be a real "trekkie," you have to love all the Star Trek movies. I would think that the real SW fans are among those most bitterly upset about TPM. While I didn't like TPM, it didn't ruin my summer. I just made sure not to see it again so Lucas wouldn't get more of my $$$.
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"OVER-FED MONEY-POWER MAD CAPITALIST" Im sorry, when I saw this talkback I glanced over things and saw shit like that sticking out so obviously I thought it was mostly about the "whatchamacallit brothers" and that doo doo film for mtv suburbanites and the plans to make it into a "trilogy"! Im sorry if I confused you, it was also that whole SW vs Matrix thing, I just feel like most of the people dissing it are probably Matrix fans. Is it true?! I'd like to know, consider it a little experiment...
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In the novelization of TPM, it goes into how the Siths were a bunch of power-hungry backstabers (not unlike talkbalk posters) who pretty much killed themselves off fighting with each other over who would be Sith ruler. The last Sith decided to keep that from ever happening again he would only train one apprentice and then when he died the apprentice would become the master and take his own apprentice. So, in the book anyway, there are never more than two.
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In an earlier post, Xenocide wrote:
"Remember the creepy dudes talking to the emperor in ROTJ when Vader enters? "
I watched ROTJ the other day and those guys with the Emperor were wearing the same clothes (crazy hats and all) that the Numiedians (Trade Federation dudes, however you spell it)wore!!! I wonder if they are supposed to be the same guys? Maybe Lucas didn't have the technology back in '82 to make them look as stupid enough so he went back and redid them. -
WOW! if the whole Sith temple thing is true and it does get shot in that monestary that would rule! Ive been to that monestary near Asisi and it is very impressive, total SW!, I havent been to vesuvious but I have been to Naples and Pompei and I love the idea that Lucas would use such culturaly important places! I think that shows more of his bad ass vision! Those are places angrained in our human experience, it sounds like he intends to hit us in those hidden spots that we probably arent even aware of!...again, like he did back in 77, 80, 83 and 99! Fuck you all! Lucas is doing a damn fine job! Its his story, its his deal, he can do whatever the fuck he wants!
(as long as it doesnt involve any combination of keanu or MTV cockrock: crackerrapperkidrock, limpbiscuit, korn, etc...) -
Sarin, you keep talking about making some "intelligent comment" yet you yourself have yet to make anything other than smart ass whitty remarks. I think your confusing "Intelligence" with "Smart-assnes". The comments that have been made at you since your original point (which was quickly flattened and disproved) were pretty clear in their points where you on the other hand have said nothing of any real value..."Just like everything you've just said is fucking pointless" exactly
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If you haven't done it yet, you should go to theforce.net and download Kevin Rubio's latest film, "Bobba Fett: Bounty Trail. It's absolutely amazing, and I think you people who slag TPM (I loved it) would adore it so much you would keep it under your pillow. And stop whining about Leo getting cast for Anakin, it would never happen. By the way, I read in Rolling Stone that Michael Jackson lobbied extensively to get the part of Jar Jar. How annoying would THAT have been?
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. . . 'cuz we're headed for a fuckin' holy war with this shit. WOOO-HA!! Seriously, though. I liked BOTH TPM and the MAtrix (although "the Gap Movie" -- That's pretty fuckin' funny). While I don't really understand why we're comparing the two, I will say this. They were both entertaining. Sure, TPM wasn't as impressive as the other 3, but it was still a hell of a lot of fun for me. FOR ME. I don't particularly care if other people liked it. And the Matrix was a goddamn blast. Neither changed the world nor was particularly thought-provoking (except to those TPM-is-a--racist-movie morons), but they were both fun. Which is what the original 3 were. OK, so you folks don't all agree with me. That's fine. I'm just amazed at the amount of venom being spat out here. Of course, it's the usual suspects involved in it, and I won't exclude myself. But I will say this to Sarin Rufus: In the immortal words of Peter Venkman - "I'm gonna take back some of the things I've said about you". You are one funny fucker. If only Pisso the Clown were here for some serious fuckin' comic relief. Fuck-fuck-fuck-spew-gorge-hurl-BLAAAAHHH-and I'm through. Thank you all for making my day at work a little more interesting.
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Went to go see TPM at the Ziegfeld in NYC 2 weeks ago, thinking it couldn't have been as bad as my first impression of it on opening night. I was right. It's worse. Forget years of mythology built by fandom and three pretty darn good films. Taken on it's own the film reads cheap and cynical. The CGI effects were completely overwrought. All those generated characters played for camera, while the actors, particularly Liam, seemed pissed off. Like George kept telling them, "Don't worry it'll be great". And they obliged despite their better instincts. HOW WUDE!
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Think of it like this ******, starts walking menacingly among the bodies, slicing at them occasionally with his kickass light saber. He gets closer to the end of the hall. A huge set of doors awaits, one slightly ajar. He pushes it open, we see the Jedi council room from TPM. A lone figure, Yoda, is hobbled over, leaning on his cane, looking at the ground. At the entrance of the intruder, he turns his head toward the camera and his eyes open wider, a sly smile appears on his face. Our badass Sith Darth 's eyes go wide in fear, he turns and flees.>*******
Now how's THAT for Yoda kicking ass?
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Sarin, you need your own comic book or talkshow or something...you remind me of Jenny Jones or Ricky Lake trying to be serious, mature, respectable, and intelligent...it just doesnt come off as believable, just laughable you know? Its like the whole "Kettle calling the pot black" thing...I must say, these talkbacks are pretty entertaining. I think you guys should strip to your underwear and battle gladiator style over a webcam! Now that would be....pretty lame but Id still laugh my ass off! Im taking bets now for anyone interested! my money is on Kahn!
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Eternal, you are correct in that if this movie had not been SW it wouldn't have been nearly as good as it was at least in my mind. I got a great deal of enjoyment out of this move solely because i had seen ep's 4-6. I mean when i thought about those i wondered, what was life like before this civil war, before the empire etc. And in this we get to see that! It was like a history lesson; this is what the republic was like, this is what the jedi were like, this is how Darth Vader was as a kid, this event triggered the start of what was to become the greatest conflict this galaxy had recorded! And damnit, i loved it every minute of it! =) Including jar jar...dear god....
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Why? Let me say first, I enjoyed both films though they are entirely different. The only reason to compare them is the timing of their release dates. Star Wars is a fantasy story: swords, beautiful princesses, evil wizards, wise wizards, young men leaving home to find adventure, even comic-relief sidekicks have a place in classic fantasy. By contrast, Matrix is a classic science-fiction movie, ordinary everyman thrust into extrordinary circumstances, the wonders of technology, the evils of technology. But what really made these movies for me is: they are beautiful. Visually stunning. The Renaissance had the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, we've got Theed, Trade Federation tanks hovering over green hills, and the startling style of the Matrix. Are you really sorry these films were ever made? They've got redeeming features to spare!
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1. RE: Jar Jar's being "Something
for the Kids" and the notion that that somehow makes him forgivable. Remember The first and second movies, when R2-D2 was cute enough to fill kid-friendly sidekick role? Then Jedi came along and suddenly R2 wasn't enough anymore, so we had to grit our teeth through the Ewoks. We hated those damned Ewoks. George knew it. So the Phantom Menace finally arrives and what does George do? He gives us wet Ewoks! Fuck the Gungans.
2. ADNT13!, are you STILL ranting about The Matrix? That movie and Star Wars can't even begin to be compared. I don't know why you fuckers insist on acting like there's some kind of Blur vs. Oasis thing going on between the two. Get over it.
3. What George needs for Episode 2 is someone on-set whose sole responsibility is to sit in a chair and occasionally say "Hey George! Don't do that! It's fucking stupid!". Someone without his dick permanently lodged in their throat, if such a person can be found. Lucas obviously needs to be saved from himself. -
Good God, people. In the months leading up th TPM, I followed all the fan pages, read all the forums and Talk Backs, and was generally a Star Wars information sponge. All was good. Then the movie came out and vitriol exploded all over the Net, and you were automtically a TPM supporter or a TPM basher. Always the same threads, with the same old redundant topics and rhetoric. I have this vision that this whole controversy is being perpetrated by 2 cranky old life-hating bastards, posting under a host of different pseudonyms, trying to spoil everything for everyone.
Well, I liked TPM OK, but I'm not playing this game for Ep. 2. A pox on both your houses.
I'm out. -
Sep 24, 1999 1:21:53 PM CDT
TPM wasn't that bad, it just didn't seem like a Star Wars movie
by superman#1
Okay I'm not the biggest SW fan, I'll admit it. I mean I saw all 3 movies before, maybe a few times each. I saw the TPM too and you know what it wasn't the greatest movie ever, but it wasn't the worst either. I didn't go in with the expectation as this film being the greatest. I knew practically nothing about TPM except the red faced guy people were so excited about. Well after seeing it I thought it was an all right movie, but a couple of scenes made me think "hey that doesn't really seem like Star Wars". One thing that stands out is Darth Maul, not the character, but the fact he used martial arts. Now I thought the duel was great, but it seemed out of place having the whole martial arts scenes because it seemed out of place, but I still liked it. You know what I realized, the times have changed. 20 years ago what made this movie so great was that people weren't expecting this type of movie at all. They had no internet, no full media coverage, it just came out and surprised everyone. These days its the opposite and people set themselves up for certain expectations, but are ultimately let down. I think some of you people need to take it easy, and not dig in so deep to every single detail, and start enjoying movies again. These days with the internet, full media coverage, press and advance screenings, etc... you really have lost the ability to be suprised by movies again, and you've lost the ability to enjoy them. That's why I think 20 years ago Star Wars was so great to people.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you. You said it much better than I could. We have lost the wide-eyed innocence that we had when we first saw the first 3. If you ask anyone who is at the age we were when we saw the originals, they would have had the same reaction we did back then. We didn't have to dissect the movie then, why do we have to now? I think that half of the critics now are trying to impress everyone with their faux-sophistication, and the other half are just too cynical. I didn't go to see it to write a critical paper for my film school dissertation. I leave stuff like that to all the aspiring Quintin Terintino's of the world. I went in with the "willing suspension of disbelief" that I learned about when I was trying to fool everyone with opinions like that. If you went back and watched the first movies with such a critical eye, they would be horrible. Harrison Ford couldn't act his way out of a box, Mark Hamill looked confused the entire movie, and Carrie Fisher was bored. Alec Guiness looked like he knew he was one step away from flipping burgers, his carrer was in the crapper. But when you are five, you don't notice that stuff. As far as the matrix goes, I never saw it, because it looked like "Bill and Ted's Excellent Violent Internet Adventure" because Keanu doesn't know any other role. I can't figure out how that made it into a SW discussion, it must be the short attention span some of the people posting have. I know this post will get no response, because I'm not calling anyone a fuckface, dicklicker, or communist. If anyone knows of a discussion site that doesn't have all of this "I'm so sophisticated, fuck off" crap, post it so those who just want to talk about the movie without having to put up with those people can go there. If it sucked so bad, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!!! GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE!! That is your choice...
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The martial arts threw me off, but I liked it too. It was neat to get an idea that all jedi were different. I wish there was some way of re-doing the fight scenes in Empire and Return, because if you compared the fighting styles, let's face it, Luke would have gotten whooped on. he wouldn't have lasted two seconds. It was excuseable in SW, the Vader and Obi-Wan fight, they were old men...but Luke was a little punk. Maul would have kicked his ass. The main reason I liked the naboo fight was the pace. It was so quick. the other fights in the originals were so grandiose and slow.
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You make good points, and if your looking for a place to post without the insults I think Cinescape has what you might be looking for.
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Sep 24, 1999 2:00:32 PM CDT
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait a minute here. So many talk backs! I thou
by herman snerd
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what are you talking about..the comic sidekicks are'nt to keep the kids happy! the whole movie/s are for the kids r2 3po yoda(before we KNOW he's yoda the ewoks they are there to be comic sidekicks..do you think the monkey iin alladdin is for the kids.or any of the other disney sidekicks? of course not..the whole of the film is for kids.TIMON and PUMBA are'nt there to entertain kids in an adult movie..and neither are the star wars sidekicks.......THESE ARE KIDS FILMS deal with it or move on. but please leave the ep2 talk backs to people who want to see it.....and it's lucas' story he writes/ in fact has written it for better or worse, if shakespeare came back to life and co-wrote with dickens and cameron, it wouldn't be star wars...........let's leave the phantom stuff behind us . those that liked it see you in the que for ep2 .those that didn't may still be there.....those that hated it.well i gues you'll all be waiting for something else.i doubt you'll like it anyway as it's a love story...we'll see how unpopular it is when it goes on sale...i'll bet it's the 2nd best selling live action vid of all time.......
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I don't why, but something really gets to me when people say that the Star Wars movies are only kids movies, that we've all lost that wide-eyed innocence, and that if you didn't like TPM it's a wonder you like the other SW movies. First, I guess the kids movies comment bugs me because of the general connotation of an unsophisticated, commercialized, dumbed-down piece of crap and that is DEFINITELY not what the SW movies are. (Ok, you should know I'm one of the only people in the world to have yet seen TPM, but I just never got around to it because I was busy this summer, but, don't worry, I won't comment on a movie I haven't seen.) Second, when I watch movies...some of that wide-eyed innocence that got buried under all that stuff we call reality comes out of its hiding space and keeps me riveted to the screen even if I don't like the movie. Sometimes I'm riveted because it's so terrible, but that's another subject. I think for many people who really love movies, the innocence comes back in a way that is not the same, but sometimes even better because it gets mixed in with your adult critical thinking. Third, I think that's pretty damn arrogant to wonder about someone liking three movies which may end up being very different in style and approach than TPM. Who says Lucas has to do the same thing every time he makes a movie? Damn...all this SW talk makes me want to go watch the original three tonight. May the force be with you...sorry, had to say it.
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Alright this is one of those facts (Anakin turned into Darth vader because he fell into a volcano). That I know that I've known for years. I remember knowing it even when Jedi (and I think even Empire for that matter) came out. What I CAN'T remember is where the hell did I get this info come from??
Was it the storybook, the novel, Bantha Tracks, or from Lucasfilms themselves. Anyone know??? -
Sep 24, 1999 6:23:03 PM CDT
: ) kkrankk says: Don't forget to watch John Kricfalusi's first
by kkrankk
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Fro: Splinter of the Minds Eye by Allan Dean Foster.
I think there's been a bit of confusion between appealing to children and appealing to ones inner child. I remember growing up on SW and to be honest the first two movies never seemed as though they were directed towards children, Jedi, however, took the first, and I fear not the last, step down the path towards the dark side of direct marketing and tie ins designed for children. SW and TESB were both good science fiction films about people rising out of situations that were greater than them. While these films were made for adults children could enjoy them nonetheless. Perhaps Mr. Lucas is just a bit rusty after not helming a film for...20 some years now. Perhaps the interplay and drama that a more adult film would entail were a bit daunting to him. Perhaps he found it easier to reach up on the nostalgia shelf, dust off something familiar, slap a few new characters in it and remake SW. Familiar themes make for a comfortable work environment. Who knows? I just hope that for the next two films he has the time to take a look at some classic science fiction (Silent Running, Blade Runner) re read his Joseph Cambell and write a movie that truly touches the child in us, and not the child in our pocket books. That's my soap box and I'm standing on it. Cheers, ??Pseudo?? -
Look. Any Star Wars movie is better than no Star Wars movie, so shut the fuck up! To convince yourself that TPM was not a disaster, just compare it to ROTJ!
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The main difference between EP4 and EP1 is this..................
you ready.
EP4 had a story line before it had a toy line whereas EP1 had a toy line that needed a story line.
when George Lucas got in to the toy biz the story went strait to HELL!!!!
We all know that the first three started to show signs of this with ROTJ/EP6 and we all feel betrayed with EP1. Yes, even you Die Hards out there. just face up to it!!
I've read more Original Ideas in these postings in the last few months than we've seen comming out of Lucas Films since ESB/EP5.
George Lucas is the one you should be all upset with for bringing to the screen the best two hour toy commercial I've ever had the privlilege of paying $8.50 to see. Aall that was need was Manakin Skywalker eating a bowl of Life cereal while waiting for his POP Tarts to pop. Commercialization of films is a good thing and help many films get made that otherwise wouldn't.
But,EP1 is a perfect example of how it can seriously harm or destroy a film. If this had been any other film or a real Episode one of a new Franchise we all would be Buying it from the previously viewed bin at our local video store for $5.99.
Hopefully George Lucas has learned from this experience....or has he been turned toward the dark side of the force.........................
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A lot of people look at TPM on it's own, not realizing that many elements that "annoyed" people will be important to the rest of the Arc.
For instance
the midiclorians supply a way for the layman (non force user) to identify someone strong in the force. Which will be helpful when the empire has the jedi hunted down.
Jar Jar is supposed to be innocent and harmless, thus it will make his death have more meaning, and will be ultimately more tragic. In fact, I believe in the 3rd movie we will see Anakin kill Jar Jar.
I also suspect that we will learn of a Sith Cult on Naboo, with some non force using Sith cultists, We will somehow see the Jedi discredited, perhaps with those mad jedi clones in the clone wars, and we will probably at some point see Alderan. Oh, and Kikster, anakin's buddy, will become Boba Fett! That's all for now! -
OK. Here's what I thought of Phantom Menace. And no, I am not an anti-Star Wars person, I am a huge fan of the trilogy. I am not bashing TPM just to get my pathetic jollies, I criticize it because I am a student of cinema and film interests me enough that I believe it should be done right. Now, I did enjoy the film. I saw it 3 times, and found it to be reasonably diverting. Now here is what was wrong with it: 1) Not enough was done with the characters. For example, Darth Maul. It's not enough for him to just stand around looking like a badass and basically saying, "Look at me! From my fearsome appearance you must assume that I am evil!" He should have done some really fucking evil things. With Vader, one of the first things you saw in ANH was him picking up some dude by the throat. OB1 was also criminally underused, and Qui-Gon did little more than spout platitudes. 2) Jake Lloyd is a horrible actor. I mean, he should never be allowed to act again. Ever. And I'm tired of having this argument with people and them saying, "He's just a kid! C'mon, give him a break!" Fuck that. There are talented child actors. Look at the kid in Sixth Sense. No matter what you think of the movie, you have to admit that Haley Joel Osment is more talented than some adult actors who are pulling down millions of dollars worth of salary. Or look at the kid from The Shining. He was only 5 years old, for crying out loud! If they make Ender's Game starring Jake Lloyd, it will suck the dick of a pack animal. 3) I have absolutely no problem with cute sidekicks, as long as they don't pander to the audience. By writing Jar Jar the way he did, Lucas was trying way too hard to appeal to the undiscriminating tastes of children. Fart jokes should definitely not be part of Star Wars. Leave that kind of humor to the Farelly brothers. Any Star Wars film should NOT just be a kids film, it should be a family film. Yes, it should keep kids happy, but not at the expense of the adult audience. That's the short list of the flaws of TPM.
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Are we talking romance, or...ahem...consummation, which I probably spelled incorrectly.
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Fat Bastard, you are a fool. Do you really believe that we're criticizing TPM because we're jealous of Lucas' wealth? Fat chance. Duh, could it be because some of us love movies and believe that films can be art? Could it be because some of us love the spirit of the original trilogy--that is, a family entertainment with dozens of thrills and well-rounded characters? Oh, and some things I forgot to put on my short list. 4) The midichlorian thing just plain sucked. The point of the force is that it is mysterious and spiritual. Think about it, those of you who keep harping about how TPM is "for kids". Doesn't the mysterious, unexplained force of the original trilogy better capture a child's way of looking at the world? The view of someone who does not quite fully understand the workings of the world around them? 5) Lucas' direction is sluggish and unimaginative. The camera conveys no sense of excitement about the events of the film, if that makes sense. The lightsaber battle was one of the coolest, most well-choreographed fights I've ever seen in a film, but the camerawork was frighteningly dull. Plus, Lucas' "signature" wipes are lifted straight out of the films of Akira Kurosawa. Once upon a time, Lucas COULD direct! Witness American Graffiti. I think he's just a little rusty, is all. Plus, the Jar Jar tongue candy is just a really fucked up idea.
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Big marketing tie in going on with Mcdonalds and the next Star Wars flick.
I guess McDonalds is so jazzed that they are renaming some of there food items to tie in with the next Star Wars movie, check out this:
For the opening week of the movie McDonalds will be renamed to Darth Mauldalds
and one item on the menu is Sith Nuggets!
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Sep 24, 1999 10:35:43 PM CDT
kkrankk says: Damn good ideas, JAWA JEDI. Lucas could use your h
by kkrankk
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If GL ws really a money grubing bastard why didn't just do like Paramount and release a half assed Star Trek movie every 2.5 years. I think when he set out to make the prequeals his next pay check was the last thing on his mind
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Sep 24, 1999 11:14:56 PM CDT
Director of Episode II - Ron Howard - Here's the evidence...
by monstervision
Ron Howard. He is a solid director when it comes to actors, he's worked with Lucas before, he's big enough to direct a film of this size but not too big to overshadow Lucas. He was on the set often during filming for Episode 1 (learning new directing techniques?). Ron Howard can be seen in the background of the 60 minutes story on TPM. Howard is a regular at the ranch and a Lucas confidant for years.
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Lets be completely honest about the whole thing. The Matrix would have been better than TPM if:
1. Keanu reeves hadn't been in it. 2. Keanu reeves had died a death worse than crappy acting in it.
3. The story line had been different.
4. if Lucas had listened to his fans instead of to himself.
I was going to think of 43 other reasons, but I need to go and do some drugs -
Sep 24, 1999 11:24:52 PM CDT
EP.2: Yoda fights, many Sith, a changed Jar Jar ?, and SW humor.
by frank rizzo
Yoda fighting? This could be incredibly silly (if he uses a lightsaber), but I doubt that is what happens. After all, he doesn't seem to think much of physical weapons in ESB. Imagine this: Sith invade Jedi temple, and kick butt until they get to a cornered Yoda. The camera cuts away to the doorway outside. The non-SW fan audience expects to hear the hacking of lightsabers but instead sees Sith being violently thrown around and running off. Cool! As far as the "multiple Sith" rumor--Yoda is wise, but he has been wrong before. He did not want to train Luke, and he did not think Luke would resist the dark side. Maybe we will all be surprised in Ep. II when we discover that for the first time in SW history, a Sith leader has been incredibly powerful enough to train many, many followers AND keep them under his control. And Jar Jar--well, he was clumsy and had a grating voice. Therefore, it is possible that he was an adolescent Gungan. Maybe in the 10 years between episodes he grows up, gets more coordinated, and gets a deeper voice. Well, we can always hope. As far as humor in SW goes--Lucas should take a tip from Airplane and Naked Gun. (To an extent!) That is--leave dry/intellectual/adult/ DIALOG-driven humor in the foreground, and leave 3-stooges/ physical/kids humor sort of in the BACKGROUND. That way, it doesn't insult the audience's intelligence. ANH and ESB did this well (much of Han Solo's dialog); ROTJ and TPM did not. Not that there is anything wrong with physical humor; but when a no-brainer joke is jammed in the foreground it's like saying "OK you are too stupid to catch the joke, so here it is REAL BIG. Now laugh on cue, HA HA." If you watch movies that imitate the Airplane/ Naked Gun style, this is why they are not nearly as funny--they rely too much on retard humor shoved in your face, rather than a more subtle style.
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Lucas didn't write Episode One without going over Episodes 4-6 a zillion times. Remember, those 3 films he wrote/co-wrote? Sure the midicloreans stuff in Ep1 left a few people in shock or confusion, but I think my pal Lucas has a plan. Starwars mixes science with religion. It always has. A scientific explaination of the force in Episode 1, will be followed by more issues about the force in Ep2 & 3. And we know how it ends. Yoda puts the final perspective on the Force in Ep5, a much less scientific approach.
The Force itself will be one of the running plots during the saga.
More & more Man tries to explain the unknown, more through science than religion, & perhaps eventually we will go back to the more spiritual views. It only makes sense that the same thing would happen in the Starwars universe. -
had to smuggle this out right under Lucas's nose, the only part I can post is the one line: AMIDALA: (groaning under ANAKIN) OH, ANAKIN! USE THE FORCE!!!! More info later, on the QT.
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oh well, at least some people may have gotten the joke if they checked out all the way at the bottom. Jesus, these are alot of posts. . .
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Gunray, in your last posting, you claimed ROTJ as proof that TPM sucked. Have you watched ROTJ lately? It's terrible! The Ewoks is the smallest problem it has. A small list of ROTJ's sins:
1. Former motormouth Leia sits quietly chained to Jabba. It is out of character beyond all proportions.
2. In virtually all interviews by anyone associated with this, there is a peculiar absence of praise for the film. everyone just says that Lucas wanted to finish the story and keep the action going at the same time.
3. There is an unrivalled lack of substance in this film. It feels like everyone is running around posing with their lasers instead.
4. We finally get to see Jabba. He is an unconvincing giant slug. We finally meet the Emperor. He is a sniggering idiot, and about as frightening as an incontinent, senile old uncle. (Well, actually, McDiarmid is good, but given very little to work with.)
5. Every villain in the whole galaxy is killed off in a matter of days, and most of them by mere chance. The film comes across like a big giant sign saying: "They won. Everyone else is dead. There won't be any more movies, or tie-ins. Go home, fans."
6. We don't get to see anything new. Tatooine: Been there. Ewoks: Midget wookies. There even is a new Death Star.
7. Who would have thought that Vader was really Humpty Dumpty, with cracked egghead and all? Sebastian Shaw was an odd choice to play Anakin, and it was a mean thing to do to Dave Prowse, who wore that clammy helmet in three movies.
8. It is the best argument for anyone who claims that Star Wars is juvenile and moronic.
I could go on, but I think I made my point. Er.. Wasn't this supposed to be a talkback about location scouting in Italy? -
Seems I was a bit too hasty. After scanning the talkback again, it appears GunRay (Or no-one else) claimed ROTJ as proof that TPM sucked. I stand by my criticism of ROTJ, though.
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Oh wait, are we not referring to the scene where George Lucas takes my $8 and makes the public watch Jar Jar?.. mmmkay..
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I was listening to the TPM soundtrack the other day while doing some work and found that I was profoundly sad that I couldn't just ride over to the local theater and see it. Now that it's gone, I miss it. I can't wait until it's out on video or DVD so I can watch it again. It seems to be taking it's place as a very fond Star Wars memory. It was neat being able to enjoy this one from a different perspective. I was able to take all my nephews to it and watch them become drop-jaw amazed with it (well, I was too, but it was wonderful being able to share it with them too). I can't wait for the next two films!
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Ahhh.....the beautiful Natalie Portman. Dont expect any kind of remotely graphic love scene or that much kissing for that matter. Natalie has already said she isnt ready for it and i totally respect her for it. She is a rare beauty and knows her limitations. She'll definitly last in the business, if she chooses of course.
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This is kind of off the main thread, but did anyone else think the ship designs and other sets were kind of bland? (With the exception of the city of Theed which I feel he blatantly ripped off from James Gurney's DINOTOPIA. Now there's a movie that shoud be made!) None of the ships had that awe-inspiring feel too them, and if anything looked like they flew out of any run of the mill Japanese anime. Even the big Federation cruiser left me cold (But wanting a donut!)
I mean was there anything like those opening scenes of Huge Imperial Cruisers rumbling over our heads? Just a thought. -
Annette, Yea, I agree, But I think you forgot to mention one more thing. The matrix wouldve been a better movie than TPM only if TPM had never ever been made. Even then, I think TPM mightve still been better! Stanley Kubricks AI is a better movie than the trenchcoat, oops, I mean Matrix! New Zeeland? What type of drugs? Hey! dont do it if you cant share with the class OK!? I think if I wouldve been on more drugs I maybe mightve enjoyed the matrix a little bit more rather than just have laughed my ass off throughout the whole thing...
Jimmy! I have to say, Im in your camp! I wouldnt mention the matrix if it werent for the fact that everytime I discuss TPM with someone it always comes down to the same shit. The ones who hated TPM are usually the ones that loved That other crappy use of film and plagerized (Jacked, crept, stolen, theived, etc..)scenes..thats what get my goat, that and the fact that it mostly was pretty much along the lines as the original trilogy and still wants to run along those same lines.
gunray=right fucking on!
as for the other star wars supporters who realize that they arent 4 years old anymore and can still look at this movie with awe, you rock! you dont get "blown away" with content-less effects movies...Bully for ya'll! that shows who knows what! As for you guys who keep dissing SW, heres a guy making movies based on so many influences that none of you can even see cause you dont know enough about movies. Sure, the matrix was cool to look at, but thats it! That doesnt make it a good movie! Stealing Phillip Dick ideas and mixing them with gibson and the greatest hong kong fight scenes are not cool! Learn where these people took their movie from and then judge it again, you'll see what I mean. -
1st: China isn't communist. The word communism refers to an economic system (unlike a star system) where the producer has control over production and distribution. In china The government (not the producing classes) have control over that production.....2nd: Lucas has complete control over star wars. The production and the distribution. therefor he is communism in persona....3rd: The jedi counsil are communists and the Siths are capatalists. (which is why they are the bad guys, except to ayn rand fanatics who really were pissed off with Vader when he chucked the emperor down the chute).....4th: well there was a fourth, but with all my ranting I seem to have forgotten what the purpose of this post was?????
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so there are bad connotations, but most people know what i mean.....GEORGE LUCAS himself says, and has ALWAYS said the star wars films are aimed at childre between 8 and 14 (roughly) read his most recent interview in empire magazine if you disbelieve me. and his interviews from the early 80's..... next while the ewoks( i like them less now i'm an adult) may partialy have been made so cute for commercial reasons, any fan worth their salt knows they are there because he couldn't use wookies anymore. as he had originally planned.
this goes to what a lot of the problems with rotj are.i t is a good movie but compared to empire it is just a popcorn movie. because a lot of the best bits were thrown into star wars because lucas was afraid he'd never get to make the other films.. death star wookie planet
etc. and leo is too short for vadre/anakin, i'm not saying he won't get it, but he is too short, hight wise it needs to be someone like ben affleck or ed burns...it won't be and i won't complain, i trust lucas to do a good job, but thats all. i have no problem with leo at all( i have a problem with his paycheck on the back of cameron's work. i don't see them throwing $20mil at kate winslett ( a better actor) , but that's not his fault.. -
ewan and boyle have been best mates for years they have made 3 films together shallow grave, followed by trainspotting and a life less ordinary..... and yes ewann is upset he isn't in the beach. but they are still mates..if you haven't seen shallow grave you should it's class...
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Is The Matrix schlocky and derivative? Sure. But so is The Phantom Menace. I wouldn't argue that The Matrix is a superior film, but if I were to do so, I'd do it on these grounds: TPM is the
fourth installment in a legendary,
universally-beloved series of movies. People waited twenty years for it to be made. George "Reclusive Genius" Lucas had twenty years and all the money and talent in the world to do something great with it. What he delivered was a lot more hollow and messy than it should have
been under the circumstances. The Matrix, on the other hand, is a goofy cyberpunk flick directed by a couple of comic book dorks and starring fucking Keanu Reeves that came out of nowhere and turned out to be a lot cooler than anyone expected. With these movies you have to consider What They Had Going For Them vs. What They Turned Out to Be. I expected great things from TPM, and saw it three times to try to convince myself it was the movie I'd hoped for. It's not. I saw The Matrix once, expecting it to blow, and was pleasantly surprised by it. It's not great, but it's a pretty damn cool B-Movie. The two movies were completely different, and wanted different things from their respective audiences. As I've said before, comparing them is sort of ridiculous. As for complaints that The Matrix is derivative of Star Wars- you think
Star Wars wasn't derivative? George just took Joseph Campbell's book "Hero With 1000 Faces" and ran the thing play by play. The whole Hero on a Journey, Wise Mentor, Evil Villain thing is a blueprint for pretty much every adventure story out there. Look at the Arthur legend, for fucks sake.
And TPM was so derivative, it even
ripped off another Star Wars movie. Its whole climactic arc was a carbon copy of Return of the Jedi's. You've got a land battle with wacky primitives vs. technologically superior bad guys,
a dogfight with the good guys trying to take out an evil space station, and a lightsaber duel all going on simultaneously. Except in TPM, the good guy ground forces are counting on the good guy space forces for their success, instead of vice-versa. And it all gets wrapped up with a hellish mix of the Star Wars medal ceremony finale, the Darth Vader funeral pyre, and the Ewok dance. It was pretty disgusting, really. -
This is a comment on The Vanishers comments to Starwars, I also heard that George Lucas was handing over the rights to someone. I heard that the person was going to be Steven Spielberg. I heard this from a very reliable resource. I will comment on more of this at a later time.
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I dont want to piss you off or anything, and i mean no disrespect. It just seems to me that the reason the ending of TPM and the ending of ROTJ were so similar is to make the 6 movies end into a circle, kinda like some big philosophical circle of life thing. You do have a point about Lucas having the time to make a great picture, but whether he succeeded or not is simply a matter of opinion, and no ones is wrong (even though those "he's only in it for the money" retards don't seem entirely convincing). I for one, think TPM was a success. Lucas made part one of a 3-part story. Since he knew beforehand that he would definately make these 3 prequels, he could engineer them so they worked as a trilogy and not seperately because they didn't need to. ANH seems complete (except that Vader lives) because Lucas wasn't sure if he would be able to finish his story. I'm positive that if before ANH came out, Lucas knew he would make all 3 or all 6, that ANH wouldn't be able to stand on its own as a movie. It too would seem incomplete. Think of all the things Lucas will do (he has to) to make everything make sense. Jar Jar will die, something will happen to Naboo, the droids will have their memories erased. Everything will be explained. I'm sure that half the people who don't like TPM will like it more when they see the other two. In fundamental film production (a course I'm currently enrolled in) we learn that all stories begin with an exposition. This gives the who, the where, and the when. Occasionally the what and how. The why is never fully understood until the resolution (in this case, ROTJ). Which reminds me, could someone please explain to me why - save for the ewoks - ROTJ was "so bad"? I grew up with ROTJ, and I disliked the Ewoks when I was a kid! But I loved Jabba's palace, still do. Now that I'm older, my favorite scenes are with Palpatine. Why do the Ewoks make the movie bad? Just ignore them. There's got to be someone who agrees with me....I hope.
Anyway, TPM was good because it was the exposition. It wasn't as good as ESB, but I'll bet the 6-12 year olds liked it better. It is a kids movie, but I know many adults who love it too. Its not neccessarily about finding the kid in yourself again or whatever. Its just trying to have fun with an entertaining movie. I think people enjoyed the Matrix because it fit in with our world; increasing technology, dark, not pleasant. But several people (some of my Matrix-loving friends) don't want to enter a bright, happy, fantasy world like TPM. They'd rather stay in the depressing, gloomy reccesses of the Matrix and the Crow. That's fine. But several of them turn around and attack the tastes of those of us who can enjoy a kid-friendly fantasy movie. No ones wrong with their opinion, its just when they try to demean others. That originates things like negative talkbackcs (which grow less and less entertaining with each one). I know this is really long, but I've been needing to express these things to someone. I could sit here and type "TPM FUCKIN RULES, MATRIX LOVERS CAN GO SUCK A FAT DICK", but it only makes me look like an idiot. Now, let me say right here that I am a very liberal person when it comes to movies; movie violence, gore, and language is great - I love Fargo and Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. But there is a time and place for that, I just don't think that Star Wars talkbacks are the right place. Do you realize how hard it has been for GL to make a mainstream, successful, PG-rated movie that everyone can enjoy if they try? He is a genious in the truest sense of the word. People, whether they like him or not, should at least respect him. I personally hate James Cameron; he's an eggotistical power-freak with a bad attitude. But I liked the Terminator movies, and Aliens. I didn't care for Titanic (too much of a sappy chick flick for my tastes). I respect him as a filmmaker but hate him for being a sell-out. Did you know he dropped out of Spider-Man because he was high on his ego trip from Titanic? He could have done so much with Spider-Man. I'm almost done ranting. I just want to say a few final things. Firstly, don't criticize the filmmaking proccess unless you have experience in it yourself. I always hate it when people who don't know what they're talking about rant about the horrid directing of a movie. Finally, if you hated TPM, I don't mind, I don't hate you. Just please don't insist on making those of us who did like it feel wrong or stupid. I'm done. The hate mail can begin.... -
Being very familiar with all Star Wars lore, including having read most of the books, many of the comics, including the 107 issue Marvel comics run, and having read a large percentage of George Lucas interviews, I just feel I have to point out a few things here. (One quick sidenote on the whole, TPM sucked/was wonderful debate: Comparing Phantom to the original's is silly as they are all intended to be chapters in a single 12 hour story. When you read a book, do you complain that chapter 2 sucked in copmparison to chapter 8?)
Lucas is of course interested in making money, because he wants to be able to feed his kids (he has three). He doesn't need to make any more movies to do this. He makes them becuase it is what he loves to do. And he makes them for us. He switched to film in college from Anthropology because he enjoyed it and because of the cultural impact it has.
Star Wars is a morality tale. It's about good and evil and how and why people pick one side over the other, or even how they mix together.
Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker, not Luke, Leia, and Han. It's about how Anakin, a good, innocent boy, chooses the dark side and why he does so, in an attempt to examine, by proxy why anyone does so. It is also about, with parts 4-6, how a return to the light side is possible.
There are many other themes underlying the film (it is one long film, 1/3rd of which we have yet to see). But this is the one that seems the most relevent to the discussions here.
Also, specific story items, the ROTJ novel reveals that Obi and Vader fight and Vader "fell into a molten pit." (I have the book right here.) The book also reveals that Obi sent Luke to Tatooine "to live with my brother Owen," as Ben tells Luke. Yes, Owen is Obi's brother. Should be interesting to see if this fact remains true in the coming episodes.
Lucas has stated, prior to writing the script so events may be falling a bit different, that 2 will be very much a romance film, and 3 will be the darkest one of them all. He's said the marriage will come in 2 and the fall will come in 3. If the volcano is being scouted for 2, then it could be the fight happens at the end. Vader/Anakin undergoing to conversion to machine would match up with the end of Empire and Han's conversion to a living machine of a sort. Of course, the original plans for the Emperor's throne room at the end of ROTJ had him in the belly of a volcano so it may be that we won't see the fight yet, but that we will see some sort of chamber there.
Lucas and Mccallum both have stated that there will be a new Sith apprentice in 2, who is not Anakin or Maul. I think it could be Aurra Sing, the ex-jedi student/bounty hunter who had a one shot cameo in TPM and is now in severl comics and who will supposedly have a bigger part in 2(not too hard to be bigger than 1 shot!).
Lucas has said, several times, that he will be directing both 2 and 3.
The only two Sith at a time does come from TPM novel and has been reiterated by Lucas in interviews.
The idea of midi-chlorians are based on mitochondria, which are small organ type entities (organelles) in our cells with their own DNA seperate from ours, implying that they may have been seperate creatures living in our cells once long ago. The interpretation I've heard which sounds the best is not that they create the Force, or are the Force, but that they are a doorway, or connection to it.
Much of the elements in TPM are repeats of elements from the otjher sections, but in story order, that makes them foreshadowing here. Also, they are motifs, which repeat, a common storytelling technique, which provides a dramatic unity to the tale (one motif being falling into a pit, seen in all the episodes to date).
This is one thing that really saves TPM and makes it so incoherent at times. Every path the story takes is set up here. Want to know what will happen in 2 or 3? Read through the elements in TPM. (exp. Yoda summarizes Anakin's fall from 1-3 when he says he sense much fear and then, Fear(1) leads to Anger(2), Anger leads to Hate(3), Hate leads to Suffering(3-4 and maybe even 5).
Well, this is much longer than I intended. I welcome comments, try to keep it civil though. -
Listen to the people who have grown too big for their britches. You have just reached the point in your lives that all Star Wars fans dread. Admit it, you are too OLD for Star Wars. Granted you may claim to have been a fan in the past, but how many people liked such music stars as Guns and Roses? Almost everyone did. And soon after, they realized that they were too old to listen to that and so they never gave subsequent albums a chance. Regardless of whether certain albums sucked, you have to admire what they do and that they are more talented than you could ever be. The same goes with TPM. Think about what George had to go through to make his movies what they are. Think about the time and effort put in. Did it not take him 16 years to put together a movie which in fact did not even need to be made?? We understood just fine with ANH, TESB, and ROTJ, that there was the Empire, and the Rebels defeated them to regain control of the galaxy. What happens is you become more and more skeptical about movies in your old age. You look too deeply in what characters are used, how much dialogue is involved, and whether Lucas is looking to make money or a movie. The reason that so many people did not like TPM, is because they had too many preconceived notions about it. Maybe Lucas made a mistake in doing the first three after the last three. You know what is going to happen before it happens. In TPM, there are no storm troopers, no R2D2, no Luke, no Leia, and no Han. There are no Star Destroyers, there is no Emperor, hell there isn't even an empire! You need to get off your high horses and realize that this is what happened before anything you know. It is the same as trying to read a book backwards. Where is the suspense? The thing about Star Wars that still makes it interesting, is that you always wonder how it happens, and when it does, you are left amazed. George Lucas wrote a space opera to tell a story that he wanted to be told. This is HIS story. Not anyone else's, and if you can't agree, then you belong in an old age home because you are TOO DAMN OLD!!! As far as episodes 7, 8, and 9... why? George doesn't want to make any more because his story ends with ROTJ. Is that too difficult to understand? If someone else wants to do it, great! I'd love to watch new Star Wars movies for the rest of my life, but let's cut Lucas some slack. After all, it was he who led us into this epic saga to begin with. Where would we be without it?
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I'm still so pissed off at Episode 1. The 'trailers' promised a sort of 'moody' adventure. A very serious plot but nooooo.... I'm not at all excited about what Lucas has to offer nowadays. His separation from that whore ex wife of his must have really kicked the shit out of him. I wish Lucas would show at least a little anger in his upcoming Eps.
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i finally saw the matrix last night. THIS is what supposedly represented the future of scifi?!?
i'm just amzed that its biggest flaws are exactly the same things that the phantom menace gets slammed for. no depth to the characters(the girl suddenly declares her love foe keanu based on the, oh 2 , lines of dialogue that they had throughout the movie?) bad pacing and forced storytelling (it goes on for nearly 2 hours setting everything up and then it conveniently wraps it all up with...a shoot-out. how creative!) i thought i would like this movie, because of the directors(i loved bound), but found it to be an overhyped letdown. -
Ok first of all forgive me for bein a right british nit picker but if people depsise george lucas and TPM why do they feel compelled to make those who like it miserable huh, i don;t mind if you don't like it, geez one of my best mates (and major star wars fan to boot) didn't like TPM, but thats his and your decisions. Personally i loved the movie, i loved the dry irony in many of the scenes ("we shall watch your future with great interest" and "i hope you bring stability back to the senate), although io agree with whoever said the editing sucked, basicly it was the podrace, it may have had 2 of the funniest moments in years (aka the tusken snipers and the jawas) but when they have the 'i don;t acre where your form thats gotta hurt', it just didn;t feel right, but that is just the main example i can think of. and i - even htough i saw it 6 times - still feel the pain when qui gon is cut down by maul.
As for the matrix..what can i say, callin it the gapp advert aint fair, what about the perrier advert or the lottery advert? but seriously that aint the problem with it. The problem with the matrix is that it uses flo-mo the same wy these adverst use it - just to show off technology. i can't think of any flo mo shot that looked great (after the first viewing), they were all there for show and nothin more, they all looked wrong and didn;t fit in with what they are supposed to represent. and as for the plot well, i admit despite its pot holes i liked it. But as for sequels? the matrix leaves itself very sequel 'unfriednly' when agent smith says that they have had other matrix's. all that SHOULD happen is that they will shut down the matrix while neo is inside and bang, problem solved, and i agree with (meg or summin ) that the whole love aspect was crap, its the 90's and she falls in love woth a guy cos of looks, geez hats moral high ground for you. and the flimsy excuse for massacuring innocent poeple 'if they aint on our side there against us'. But the matrix was still a great movie.
And as for Yoda battlin sith? i am truly excited, if you think about it practicly, not childishly, think of manga or anyhting fantasy for that matter. star wars is a fantasy as well as sci-fi, bilbo baggins wasn't 8 ft tall be he still had magic and stuff. So think relaisticly, yoda with the force ala palpatine in rotj, throwin people about and stuff.
and one final thought whatever george lucas did for ep1 it woulda made money, if it was shot in black and white and done using cheesy special effects, people woulda still paid to se eit many times. and george lucas said the only reason he is directin all 3 is because he would spend so much time on set that he might as well be directin anyway -
I'm sure this talkback is pretty much dead by now, but I thought I'd throw in a Jar Jar comment for the hell of it. When the original SW came out I was 15 - not a 7 to 10 year old, the market many think the films are aimed at. I loved the film, almost absolutely. It was a swashbuckler and I was a sucker for any film about charming rogues, princesses, evil empires, uncertain parentage, swordfights etcetera. The one part of the film that rankled me was C3PO - bumbling, slapstick, an annoying voice and annoying mannerisms. Now who does that sound like?? Nonetheless the younger kids who sat next to me loved him. Now I'm guessing some of the talkbackers here were the age of those young kids when they first saw the film too. It might explain why few have ever suggested that C3P0 is as equally annoying as Jar Jar Binks. They've seen one through a child's perspective and have grown up with that perception intact, and the other with an adult and more cynical perspective. For me, they are pretty much similar characters - all JJ needs is a cuter, but more sensible sidekick and the process will be complete. And I still think that TPM lacked the slightly cheesy charm and vigour of the first flick or the exotic and darker tone of the second film of the original trilogy. I'm not sure what TPM was aiming at - franchise excuse, Big Themed Drama, a purposely thematic re-hash of the arc of SW1's plot (hello Mr Hero of a Thousand Faces) - but it needed, I'll say it again, CHARM. And that ain't something that can just be achieved with a few cute looking characters and children.
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NOTE: Apologies if I have posted this twice!..........
I'm sure this talkback is pretty much dead by now, but I thought I'd throw in a Jar Jar comment for the hell of it. When the original SW came out I was 15 - not a 7 to 10 year old, the market many think the films are aimed at. I loved the film, almost absolutely. It was a swashbuckler and I was a sucker for any film about charming rogues, princesses, evil empires, uncertain parentage, swordfights etcetera. The one part of the film that rankled me was C3PO - bumbling, slapstick, an annoying voice and annoying mannerisms. Now who does that sound like?? Nonetheless the younger kids who sat next to me loved him. Now I'm guessing some of the talkbackers here were the age of those young kids when they first saw the film too. It might explain why few have ever suggested that C3P0 is as equally annoying as Jar Jar Binks. They've seen one through a child's perspective and have grown up with that perception intact, and the other with an adult and more cynical perspective. For me, they are pretty much similar characters - all JJ needs is a cuter, but more sensible sidekick and the process will be complete. And I still think that TPM lacked the slightly cheesy charm and vigour of the first flick or the exotic and darker tone of the second film of the original trilogy. I'm not sure what TPM was aiming at - franchise excuse, Big Themed Drama, a purposely thematic re-hash of the arc of SW1's plot (hello Mr Hero of a Thousand Faces) - but it needed, I'll say it again, CHARM. And that ain't something that can just be achieved with a few cute looking characters and children. -
Good god Michelle! The Matrix isn't a 'Chick Flick' . I loved the movie. It isn't for sensitive girls like you. Go see 'Shakespeare in Love' or something. That was also a good flick.......Oh I forgot this TalkBack is about Star Wars...um.....nothing to really look forward to if Lucas writes it, and pretty much a waste of time if that God damn Jar fuckin Jar is in it too.
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I reckon the best thing from Ep 1 (which I cant be bothered slagging or praising here) was the ambassador's ship that Qui-gon and Obi arrive at the blockade on. The passing shot of the ship with the huge Falcon-like engine sounds was way cool. Yeah, Jar Jar sucked. Cheers.
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Must be possible to have more than two Sith Lords. Otherwise what happens if at the End of Jedi, they DO turn Luke to the dark side?
A. Emperor caps Vader, replaces him with the less competent, albeit younger Luke - or
B. The emperor retires, kicks back in the retirement home for geriatric Sith, and lets Vader and Luke do their thing - or
C. Vader slices and dices his way to the throne.
I think we should read Yoda's comment as AT least two... -
A Love story? I wonder if Lucas can really do it. I won't bash him anymore. I'm sure he'll base it on his own experiance. Anakin (George) so in love with The Young Queen (Ex wife Marcia).They have a couple of kids (Maybe not by choice) and everything goes to hell. Amidala(Marcia) leaves him for (whatever reason maybe an affair with Obi Wan?) Anakin could take this emotional upheavel in two ways: He could just accept it and move on (which is what George did)...or take it out on the rest of the World(Universe). Dammit George! Hire a good writer this time! Sorry didn't mean to bash.
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Yoda meant that if there was one Sith (maul), then someone had to train him, making two. That doesn't mean there aren't lots more Sith lords with apprentices out there. I'd like to see a Dark Jedi training session in the next movie, with dozens of students powered by the dark side.
I always thought that the title TPM meant the attack on Naboo had an alterior motive. The queen used a decoy -or was it a clone?- Sidious wanted to Invade Naboo, and get the cloning technology to build an army of Dark Jedi. Makes sense to me. -
Ok...Im a bit confused...I thought the Volcano scene was going to be in the 3rd movie??...That's what I read a couple years ago in a star wars magazine anyways...Does this mean that this is the movie where Anakin becomes Vader???
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Just because a woman(though Michelle is also a man's name) posted a negative review of Matrix, you tell her it's not a Chick Flick? That's pretty ridiculous, seeing as she/he posted intelligent comments that weren't aimed at any one person.
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This post shares a tenuous link to the topic, at best. But then, that's why it should fit right in. Check out this site and find out what happened to one guy who let his co-workers use him to "test" their digital cameras. Don't say you weren't warned!http://users2.50megs.com/joshuamiron/
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2 cents from Holland,
"Always two there are... A master and apprentice...", "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to Epsisode IV, V, possibly VI" ;)
Some people in this disscussion thread mentioned what Yoda's words could mean. I think, as someone suggested also, that Maul was the apprentice, Palpetine (the cloaked version if Im not utterly mistaken) was the master. As of yet there are no other Sith. What perhaps will happen in Ep2 is a love-triangle between Anakin, the Queen and Obi... "fear grows to anger for Anakin" - there is a fight between Obi and him and Anakin falls in the pit - his body is retrieved by the Sith Order (as seen in Rotj, the red guards and purple priests)- (Ep3:) Anakins special blood-type (with those cells witch give him plenty of force powers) is cloned/used and Palpetine through the use of Anakin gains his one force powers (and with palpetine perhaps other sith are created?). Palpetine uses the anger turned to hate of the young, Anakin (now 'Darth' Vader) to his advantage and destroys the opposition of the Jedi Council. (off course the pregnant Queen escapes and hides. It will be interesting to see how this is writtne into the story. Will the Queen and Anakin 'consumate'their love in in ep2 and will the events in Ep2/3 span a timeframe of 9 months..., will we only see a hint of the Queens pregnancy or will she give birth and will Ep3 end with a high note of a twin being born into the turmoil that is the Empire rising to power??! ...and whoever said they didnt like TMP..you do care dont ye, no mather how bad Lucas's crap stinks...you will wait in line for Ep2/3...Yes the force is Strong with this one!
this is off course speculation, but what do you think?
thank you kindly,
Azrharn
Holland -
To ALL THUMBS. HEY Lighten up! Don't take my past comment not directed towards YOU, so freaking seriously. I swear to God, women like you are so God damn sensitive about everything even when in 'jest'.
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I think that leo is an ok actor, but one of the draw backs I've read about him is his lack of physical stature. He's kinda short and waify, an even if he bulked up, I think that he would still be a little short. Another possibility that I've heard about it James Van Der Beek...I don't know if I spelled his name right. I've never seen his show, in fact the only place I've seen him act is on Saturday Night Live, but he seemed like he would do well, and he has the size. As for the Sith discussion, I'll post what I did before. In the novel, which was written with GL looking over the shoulder the whole time, it tells why there are only two sith. There used to be alot of sith, but they got killed off in a big war about 1000 years before TPM. One survived (Darth Bane), and he decided that in order for the sith to survive detection and infighting that naturally comes with a bunch of evil, greedy bastards, if the teachings are passed down from a master to an apprentice, and only two existing at a time, the sith could perservere until the time was right for revenge and conquest (like, for example, when one of them is Chancellor of the Senate). I can't wait for EP2, because the rumors sound really exciting. Yoda opening up on an army sounds pretty cool, and I heard that Mace Windu is set to do some damage also...possibly with a double sided lightsaber.
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I think that leo is an ok actor, but one of the draw backs I've read about him is his lack of physical stature. He's kinda short and waify, an even if he bulked up, I think that he would still be a little short. Another possibility that I've heard about it James Van Der Beek...I don't know if I spelled his name right. I've never seen his show, in fact the only place I've seen him act is on Saturday Night Live, but he seemed like he would do well, and he has the size. As for the Sith discussion, I'll post what I did before. In the novel, which was written with GL looking over the shoulder the whole time, it tells why there are only two sith. There used to be alot of sith, but they got killed off in a big war about 1000 years before TPM. One survived (Darth Bane), and he decided that in order for the sith to survive detection and infighting that naturally comes with a bunch of evil, greedy bastards, if the teachings are passed down from a master to an apprentice, and only two existing at a time, the sith could persevere until the time was right for revenge and conquest (like, for example, when one of them is Chancellor of the Senate). I can't wait for EP2, because the rumors sound really exciting. Yoda opening up on an army sounds pretty cool, and I heard that Mace Windu is set to do some damage also...possibly with a double sided lightsaber.
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go back to woodstock you wanna-be hippie, 30 some years too late for woodstock hethen. Go "find" yourself with the rest of the unoriginal "need to rehash the past cause we cant come up with our own thing" group of people, go riot over $4 pretzels and water, YEA! fight the power! You want to go around using "Jew" as an insult? Fuck you bitch! Making money from art is bad yet making money from suckers like you is good? (Well, maybe from suckers like you..) How about that corporate event? Soul-less remarketed pre-packaged revolution, go back to raveworld and glow stick the night away Nazi-boy. Ps, people like you prove why the Matrix appeals to such a bunch of stupid fucks.
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Sep 27, 1999 9:31:15 AM CDT
michelle21 (THIS is what supposedly represented the future of sc
by rachelreplicant
Thank god! Ive been waiting and wondering if this whole talkback is just a bunch of cocks (boys)! Then Michelle 21 steps in and says my lines. Fuck the matrix! That was the most laughable peice of shit pseudo sci-fi movie I have ever seen! Talk about un-original, under developed, mal-nutritioned shit! I really hope this isnt what were supposed to expect for the future of sci fi! what garbage! Nothing but testosterone! Everything but the effects sucked, its no wonder its a big hit with all the sorry boys that live around here, nothing but a bunch of suburbanite white mtv boys. Can we say "trendy"? I dont mean to come off as a snob or anything, but cant you guys just try a little to get some cultural education? This movie sucked and it scares me to see so many people respond with such enthusiasm to such a pathetic movie. Someone said that "George just took Joseph Campbell's book "Hero With 1000 Faces" and ran the thing play by play. The whole Hero on a Journey, Wise Mentor, Evil Villain thing is a blueprint for pretty much every adventure story out there" right, almost all movies are based on certain motifs, but George does it with stlye, he tells you his story with an ancient outline, the matrix just delivered a sloppy badly copied cut and paste story and instead of an ancient outline, it used recent (far back enough to were the "trend" kids couldnt reach) movies to steal scene for scene from and tried to tie it all up together with a simple "one fight fix" solution...give me a break! If all you boys nuts were cut off you might be able to see that that movie was crap and it only appealed to you because of the boyness of guns, crappy rock (limpbizkit, korn, etc..)and leather trench coats! (I love whoever started calling it the Gap/trenchcoat mafia movie. Smooches to ya). That brings up another thing, all of the schoolyard killings have been made by boys! Not one girl, make the connections and you might begin to understand why that movie appealed to a mostly male crowd, I beleive probably in their teens. I love John Woo, I love "Good" action flicks, (Chow woon fat is dreamy) but The Matrix has to go! Cmon you guys make a girl happy and show me some brains and good taste, oooh, that would really turn us on. (then again maybe not so dont get your hopes up)
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The last Star Wars book vision of the future eludes to the clone wars and the downfall of the jedi. Read it. As far as Lucas let his fans dictate the story. We do no not want to see cute stuff or Jar Jar stinks characters. Make it dark make it adult. Face it the kids will not propel you to Titanic #'s
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You know, this whole thing has been really silly, but I have to put my 2 cents in, TPM while it wasnt the greatest atleast tried to do something good with its content and story telling. The Matrix on the other hand well, I dont want to get into all the bashing going on here but....that thing had so many logic holes, it just wasnt believable! Sure, a bunch of people running around space with an animated sidekick may not be logical, but I felt it was more believable and worthy of my time than a bunch of sunglasses with attitudes and guns running around. Even then, it couldve been handles with a lot more attention. "bad pacing and forced storytelling (it goes on for nearly 2 hours setting everything up and then it conveniently wraps it all up with...a shoot-out. how creative!"
exactly my point. I took my kids to see both and I can tell you my they were more motivated and inspired by SW than the matrix. As far as IM concerned Im more trusting of what can stir young minds into thinking about the struggles of their future than what stirs young minds to buy soundtracks and attitudes. -
rachelreplicant- Nice job asserting the superiority of your
sex. I love "Chow woon Fat", too.
It could easily be argued that the Matrix follows the exact same archetypal "Hero With 1000 Faces"
blueprint George employed when making Star Wars. Hell, it could even be argued that The Matrix has
an extremely sophisticated Lacanian subtext, but I'll spare you that. I agree it's mostly a shallow triumph of style over substance, but I'm not sure it aspired to much more than that. It seemed to me like the Wachowskis were going for Live-Action Anime, and that's exactly what they put on screen. The akward, nonsensical dialogue, the plot holes and the wooden acting- for me, all of that just contributed to the film's Anime feel. It was just schlocky fun, but a lot of it. And if you're out to demonstrate that girls are more refined and culturally enlightened than boys, I'd steer clear of speculations as to how we might behave if our "nuts were cut off" and invitations to turn you on. Thanks, but I'd rather not, you goofball. -
Sep 27, 1999 12:07:54 PM CDT
George Lucas, love story, Jar Jar and things I don't understand
by natalie
I guess I'm too late for this talkback (how could I miss it?!)Anyway, having read all the posts I feel like I want to say something myself. Warning: this comes from a 19-year-old female who was born on the very year ESB was released, not American (not even an English-speaking), who saw the original trilogy only on DVD Special Edition last year and ultimately loved it! And I liked TPM too, though maybe it's so great. But, people, stop saying "it sucks". Don't you know other words to express your opinion in more intelligent way? Yeah, TPM has its faults, yeah, editing wasn't great, I wish I saw more of the cities, I wish there were less of Jar Jar and more of Darth Maul since he's the main villain here. And the script could be better. That's why I'm thinking Lucas should concentrate on the story and find someone else, more professional, to direct and write the scripts at least. I agree with other posters who say if you, being SW fan, don't like TPM you are just too grown up for it. I mean, you've become too cynical. You say Matrix rules, but how can you just compare it to TPM? It's two completely different movies - in ideas, tone, everything. Yes, Eternal and others, you must admit at once, kids have always been a great part of SW audience, because Lucas stated it himself: "I made this movie for kids and for those who want to have fun". *I* had fun. If you didn't, it's your problem, not Lucas's. Yes, it's a movie for kids. That's why there're no four letter words there which you're so fond of, no "inapropriate scenes" instead of few kisses - and i imagine, how pissed off you'd be if there were any. You would have said Lucas betrayed you. Maybe in the original trilogy this appeal to kids wasn't so clear, but still, it's obvious that people who hate Jar Jar didn't like Youda, Chewbacca and Ewoks - it means they simply don't like all non-human characters that just a bit funny. I haven't heard any complaints about Jabba so far. Yes, TPM can't stand on its own, but it's true for other SW movies too. Of them only ANH can be considered as a seperate film, others are just chapters of one sage - even your favorite ESB (really, I don't understand this preferance - is it only because it's so "dark"? Personally I can't choose my fave here). Still, IMHO TPM is great as a part of the whole - we should know the history, shouldn't we? Finally, how can you say Lucas is sell-out? Yes, this franchise must be profitable, 20 century fox should get its money. But if Lucas cares only for money, as you think, then why the hell did he wait for so many years to make a new installment? He could have done it long ago, and make his millions. He's rich, guys, he doesn't need this money. SW is the greatest and longest work of his life, it's his creation. _GunRay, i totally agree with you, your post is the greatest here, i can't say better so I better close this topic.~~~Sorry, it was too long and not very coherent. But I'm really pissed-off by such posters as Eternal. Anyway, back to EP2. Why are you all afraid of this love story prospect? I also doubt that Lucas can make it convincing, but I guess it won't be too long: Anakin will ask Amidala to marry him (or she'll do it herselt, she's Queen anyway), they'll kiss once and nothing more (Lucas is such a puritan :)) It was all right in ESB, anyway. Maybe here it's a bit different, Anakin is not Hat Solo, and the difference in age (8 years?), not to mention social gap - he's a former slave and she's a queen, the highest level of society. But, anyway, this love story must take place, because Luke and Leia will be born, won't they? If Anaking himself didn't have a father, Luke and Leia definetely had one. Things I don't understand:1)Mt.Vesuvius: I thought the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan will happen in Ep.3. Are they preparing for it beforehand or what? 2)Yoda's phrase "only two there are..." IMO means that every Sith master had an aprentice, not that there were only 2 sith lord in all time. I guess the copied the Jedi system of training: remember, Qui Gon was told he couldn't tak another apprentice because he already had one. My question is: in Jedi Council there were quite a lot of Jedi Knights, and they were only the mightiest, so it means there were pretty many Jedi before the Empire, so what happened to them? Why Yoda and Obi Wan are the only survivors? In eps 4-6 we knew about only 2 sith lords - Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. How can 2 of them slay hundreds of Jedi? I think there were more Sith. But then what happened to them when the Empire was destroyed? A good base for new sequels btw, I think there would be next episodes somewhen, this project can't be abandoned. It's too commercial successful - a sin the eyes of many of you. 3) Clone Wars - does it mean every character would have its clone and they will fight with each other? :) Why there were now clones in the original trilogy? They prohibited this technology? It can be quite dangerous I guess: you can kill the Emperor and place a clone instead and nobody will know it. Somebody said Sidious wanted to conquer Naboo to learn the clone technology. I myself thought all this fuss about this little planet happened because Palpatine used Amidala to become the head of the Senate. But it's a good point. 4)family matters: how come Darth Vader knew he had a son, but didn't know he also had a daughter when they were twins? Does it mean he'll be already on the dark side when they are born? I always wondered why the hell Darth Vader waited so long to begin to seach for his son, when Luke live on his own planet under his own name. Then, who was Uncle Owen? If he was Obi-Wan's brother then why did he call his brother "a mad man"? To prevent Luke from going to him? I hope all this will be explained in the next 2 episodes... Cheers, it was a girl from the former communist country :)
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Im sorry if I came off as generalizing, that wasnt my intent. Every guy I know who loved that movie just also happens to love the soundtrack too, they also happen to be mtv kids. All their modern culture is derivitive of television. That is my experience, you cant argue it, you cant disprove it, its my reality so fuck you for telling me Im assuming or making everyone guilty, IM not. go shoot up a school or something! As usual you are all too busy flexing your muscles to read sarcasm..der...I wasnt out to say everyboy who likes "A" automaticaly likes "B" the whole point of it all was that in MY experience, it is the same boys who love Korn and that other group who love the matrix, it was also boys who loved guns and violence who also shot up a bunchof other kids. The connection isnt "Every boy is evil" or that "Everybody who loves korn is evil" either, thats like saying "Every boy is capable of rape, therefore everyboy is a rapist" I dont subscribe to that point of view. However, you cant deny that the appeal of that movie was just the guns, violence, and testosterone level. Are you going to argue that? What, was it a modern romance? A love story? A thinking movie? No, it was a bad action flick in disguise as a bad sci-fi flick. Now, I hate cheezy romance, and I hate that it has to find its way into EVERY movie, even then it could be handled a lot smoother and not be forced into the story. Have you ever seen BladeRunner? Notice all the violence? All the cool sci fi elements, and still the love story and it doesnt detract from any of the testosterone flying around! My point is that it is a thinking movie at the same time as an action sci fi movie. It looks good, it reads good and more importantly it MAKES SENSE! It didnt center on guns or cheezy commercial effects, or cheezy music! It wasnt out to sell a soundtrack or to inspire a bunch of people to dress a certain way. (The Gap: Everybody in Leather!) (I didnt make that up, that is an actual ad currently running) It didnt cater to the perfect marketing crowd! Someone made reference to live action anime, even then, it (Matrix) wouldve been bad as anime (which I could totally get into because atlease anime takes more intelligence into account and relies on the story or art to perpetuate ideas and storytelling rather than rely on the biggest selling trends which in MY OPINIOn are crap!) What was so cool about that movie? Can anyone tell me seriously?
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To 60091: Thank you for your concern, but I'll assure you I'm quite light-hearted and was only commenting on a generalization that did not appear to be in jest in its original form. In the future it may help if you not make a personal, sexist, derogatory comment to a person you're trying to calm down. Also, it is best not to use caps(known as shouting). In my response to your comments made on a public board, I never used any phrase that began with "I swear to God, men like you..." so I would expect the same respect in kind. And actually, when you think about it, labeling me as one of those "sensitive women" would qualify the original message as pertaining to someone like me. Thank you.
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rachelreplicant- Okay, so you obviously have an enormous hard-on (pardon the expression) for Bladerunner. Nothing wrong with that, it's one of my favorites as well. What baffles me is your complaint that the love story in the Matrix is somehow less realistic or more incongruous than the one in Bladerunner. Deckard and your namesake fall in love after, what, three scenes together? All of them rather hostile? At least there was some off-screen time in the Matrix during which we can assume Keanu and Carrie Ann did a little talking. Furthermore, I think it's a mistake to term Bladrunner an action movie. Frankly, no, I didn't notice all the violence or "testosterone flying around". Bladerunner is a sci-fi/action film in the same way Apocalypse Now is a Viet Nam movie. You're right when you say guns and special effects are the heart of the Matrix's appeal, but so what?
Can you claim that spaceships and lightsabers weren't at least three-fourths of what made Star Wars cool? And, incidentally, whatever point you were attempting to make re: the integrity of Anime
was totally lost on me. Presumably because you had no idea what you were talking about. -
dont like the matrix? Fuck you dumb hos!
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"whatever point you were attempting to make re: the integrity of Anime was totally lost on me. Presumably because you had no idea what you were talking about."
the anime point was lost by you mostly because you're ...never mind. Read the post, its pretty clear.
"Someone made reference to live action anime, atleast anime takes more intelligence into account and relies on the story or art to perpetuate ideas and storytelling rather than rely on the biggest selling trends which in MY OPINIOn are crap!)" hmmm, I wonder what she means by that? ....der.....I wonder....
"What was so cool about that movie? Can anyone tell me seriously? " as of yet no one has been able to answer this question. -
"whatever point you were attempting to make re: the integrity of Anime was totally lost on me. Presumably because you had no idea what you were talking about."
the anime point was lost by you mostly because you're ...never mind. Read the post, its pretty clear.
"Someone made reference to live action anime, atleast anime takes more intelligence into account and relies on the story or art to perpetuate ideas and storytelling rather than rely on the biggest selling trends which in MY OPINIOn are crap!)" hmmm, I wonder what she means by that? ....der.....I wonder....
"What was so cool about that movie? Can anyone tell me seriously? " as of yet no one has been able to answer this question. -
I got this email a few months ago. I'll warn you now, it goes a little deeper than "Matrix sux" or "George Lucas is a bad man", but it gets the ol' brain (remember that?) going. "Saw the Matrix again. #1 I picked up on things like how the agents are
agents, not in the sense of secret agents, but in the sense of software
agents. #2 was when I caught things like the illuminati referring to
Keanu as "coppertop". #3 is when I noticed the character whose real name
was Reagan talking about how "I want to be someone important... like an
actor" alongside "I don't want to remember _anything_, you understand me?
_Nothing_." #4 is when I noticed quite how intensely theological the
movie is.
The trick is, it's largely not your run of the mill Biblical bits, it's
Gnosticism. The Prime AI is obviously the Demiurge; it literally created
the world -- and the world is an illusion. Not to mention he is
mentioned
to have been the single intelligence that created the AI race (God split
himself into many parts that he might have friends). The agents are
obviously the Archons; Morpheus says as much when he goes on about how
"they guard all the doors, they hold all the keys". The first matrix,
the "perfect world", is the Garden of Eden, which we were kicked out of
because of knowledge -- the knowledge that it wasn't real, specifically.
The One is described as a man born inside who could change things how he
wanted, who freed the first ones; Jesus much? And of course Keanu is the
second coming of the messiah, who will deliver his people from bondage.
"You're my savior, man; my own personal Jesus Christ." Who died and
returned. Good thing it didn't take three flippin' days. One will note
he was also tempted and gave the predictable modern "retro me satanas",
and had his Judas. (What were they doing immediately before the trip
inside where the betrayal occurred? Why, eating, of course.)
You know that the name Lucifer is from a mistranslation in the book of
Isaiah of the King of Babylon's title Star of the Morning, right? Well,
they were talking about a specific King of Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar. The
name of the ship. Lucifer, Prometheus, the light-bringer who rebelled
against the Demiurge to free men.
Hell, not to show how much of my gnosticism comes via Phil Dick, but the
goddamned storage towers were black iron.
I am so utterly contemptuous of the people who came out of it saying
"nice eye-candy". This movie is an IQ test. It's exactly as intelligent
as its viewer." -
Jeez! I swear to God! ALLTHUMBS just won't shut up about this. They always have to have the 'last word' now don't they.
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First of all, thanks Claimjumper for breaking down some of the Matrix's cool subtext. You're exactly right- if you're willing to pay attention, there's plenty of deeper meaning to be found. I don't think I even need to point out the movie's "Brains in Vats" Cartesian underpinnings. If you want it to be a thoughtful movie, there's plenty there to work with.
rachelreplicant, I was the one who mentioned live-action Anime, which is what I think the Matrix is an impressive realization of. And I'm not sure "perpetuate" is quite what you meant. Actually, I have no idea what you meant. Your grammar is pretty atrocious. Contrary to what you seem to be claiming, Anime is usually every bit as trendy and violent as the Matrix. Look at Pokemon- it's just one big trend. And razor-sharp storytelling certainly isn't its strong suit. As often as not, the plot in Anime is built around panty-shots. Wait a minute... why am I still bothering to respond to you? -
Sorry to redirect the conversation from this fascinating Matrix/Anime discussion, but something about the Star Wars trilogy just occurred to me. At the end of ANH, Vader's plans to crush the rebellion fail when Luke blows up the Death Star (and don't try to tell me that was Tarkin's plan-- Vader was clearly an underling). Anyway, failure is apparently not well tolerated in Imperial circles. Witness countless chokings by Vader himself. There are also references in some of the novels to Stormtroopers being executed when they fail in their duties.
Yet in ESB, Vader seems to be in charge of everything, second only to the Emperor. He even has the most kick-ass of all Star Destroyers. Did he deserve this?
I guess we can assume that when his TIE fighter gained composure, he flew back to the Emperor with some cock-and-bull tale: "Yeah, Palpy. That Tarkin sure had a boneheaded idea when we let the stolen data tapes escape. Good thing I was conveniently out of harms way when the bantha fodder hit the fan."
This has always kind of bugged me. Many of the flaws with the original trilogy and the new movie are that Lucas is making this up as he goes. This resulted in the worst gaffe in the trilogy, the Luke/Leia siblings thing. I know people have talked about ad naseum, but forget all the "He's kissing his sister" snickering. The worst thing about it is that Leia was on the Death Star and had lengthy conversation/torture sessions with Vader, yet Vader never felt a tremor in the force that said, "Hey. I'm feeling something familiar here. Could she somehow be related...Nah, she has a different last name than me. No way." Very weak. There was no reason for Luke and Leia to be siblings.
My point is: while I love all of the Star Wars movies, there are worse mistakes than Jar Jar in the original trilogy.
Now, you may resume your rantings about The Matrix and Ghost the Shell or whatever... -
Although this thread is as good as dead, 2 more cents.
The Matrix is not cool because of the obvious subtext. (why not mention 'Alice in wonderland, yatayata...). So don't be smug! Intelligence is not the same as education... having had education doenst make one 'intelligent'. Enjoying movies has nothing to do with I.Q. but everything with fantasy. Sitting in a dark room and being swept away by compelling visuals...its about catarsis...
What is interesting about the matrix (what is unique and not something already seen time and again in many a 'dark techno-sf film) is for me one thing: its visuals: 'flo-motion' is the key word here! This film vibrates with a special slo-mo Anime-effect that brings film, historically, full circle. From the old Max fleischer animations to Jurassic Park, cinema has been about light and motion. With the digital revolution brought about by ILM (industrial light and magic) and others what is real and not real on screen can no longer be determined with the naked eye. Cinema always was devided in 'life-action' AND 'traditional animation, stop motion, etc... (Roger Rabbit succesfully combined the 2). Jurassic Park and earlier films like Tron made that distinction irrelevant.
The Warchowski brothers for the first time (to my knowledge) made life action into 'Anime'. Thats what makes the Matrix cool!! Not the 'lacanian subtext' or the nice references to Plato's Cave anyone could easily see. With The Matrix life action knows no 'bounds'.
"what is real?" Morpheus asks? and the answer is (for cinema) whatever you want...whatever you want.
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o, and blade runner is tech-noir. Ridley scott based it upon the genre of film-noir...its a detective movie.. its got a famme fatale, etc...). please do your homework).
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Azrharn -
but I imagine how much excited about that fact were those who saw the original release. But you're right, in the original trilogy there're a lot of details that don't match each other. And I guess there won't be such things in ep2 and ep3 because we already know who is who. When people are bitching about the shit plot of TPM they're forgetting those "I'm your father Luke" and "You're my sister Leia" things which make ESB and ROTJ look like a soap opera. But it's the thing that drives the narration there anyway.
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