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A Culture Committee' Do we really need this'
We have covered this debate for a while now. Sometimes it is given form within the MPAA... Sometimes upon news shows like 60 MINUTES.... and today it is in the United States Senate. This time the fearless fighter for innocence and goodness is one Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kansas).
The Committee, a Special Committee On American Culture, would be created for the express purpose of examining the impact of pop culture by exploring the alleged links between violent entertainment and crime as well as studying the issues of family and investigating possible connections between explicit sexual material and teenage sexual activity.
Folks, when FIGHT CLUB comes out, expect this issue to explode. There will be politicians crying for Fox's blood on that film. They will be completely unattentive to what is actually going on in the film, but that won't stop them from doing their best imitation of Joseph McCarthy. It's an easy target.
What interests me is the claim that the 'Committee' would study the current state of the American Family. But do you really think that they are going to come out of the study, recommending that two parent working family is a major problem. That one parent should be an at-home parent. That the economy would need a major shift in terms of medical, real estate, renting rates and every financial reason why both parents need to work thus keeping them from being there for their children...
I mean... Really, that's a huge part of the issue. It's tough. It's a big balls issue. It's a problem that needs to be addressed, but fingerpointing at Hollywood and saying that they are killing our children is the most knee-jerk reactionary concept around town. What about the millions of kids that see all this 'violence and sex' and grow up to be perfectly normal.
It seems that from time to time, from generation to generation, we have to watch the U.S. Government attempting to rack up points against Hollywood, the comic's industry, paperback dimestore mysteries, MAD MAGAZINE, Playboy, etc... They point and they scream. And still it is always about avoiding the problem that simply... the cost of living has risen to the point that both parents have to work. As a result a child begins to feel a bit distanced from his/her parents. The parents are too tired from working to spend the real necessary amount of time with the kid.
I saw it happened here at my home when I became too busy to listen to my own sister's problems in High School. I got caught up in building something that I loved and could possibly take care of my needs... but it was selfish. And after my sister went down a pretty serious path, I had to make the time to get her back where she needed to be.
The same can be said with all of her friends. They were good kids, left to their own devices... not by evil bad parents... but by parents that simply worked too hard.
This is... at it's root a financial and social issue that is based on the parents not being able to be there for their children due to financial and career needs.
Senseless Violence is a problem today. The apartment complex that used to reside across the street from my house was burnt to the ground killing a baby and it's mother and severly burning the father, by a Crack head who felt someone in the complex owed him $8 dollars (which had been paid him) so he surrounded the place in kerosene and fired a flare gun into it.
Right now, Hollywood is looking at the issues. Go this weekend and take a look at AMERICAN BEAUTY. Tell me that you can't begin to see the problem clearer. Here in Texas we had a gang of pep squad girls pulling gas station robberies armed. Concurrent to the crimes, and unknown to Hollywood, there was a film being shot called SUGAR AND SPICE that has some startling similarities. But these girls didn't copy the movie... and the film didn't even copy the girls. I wear a black leather overcoat. Have for the last 3 years. It's not for any other reason than I think it looks cool... even on a guy my size.
When I bought the coat, MATRIX wasn't even a script yet. But overcoats and violence go back a ways. In the Old West Jesse James and his gang wore big ol Dusters. They didn't see that in a movie. Ultimately these violent youths are a product of feeling alone and unrecognized. Nothing they do gets the attention of their parents. The become disenfranchised. They try to create their own unique vision of a style in school. Other kids picked on them brutally. It happens. Always has. The Popular kids make fun of the less popular kids.
My advice? Don't begin tearing down artist's rights. Instead beginning in Elementary begin teaching Media classes. Classes that's sole purpose is to teach children to interpret what they are watching. To understand stories and films and the news. Don't hide it from them. Teach them what it means. Teach them how to make films, how they are made. Video Production classes. Focus the interests... which will always be there... into learning how to deal with it. In addition to ENGLISH classes which focus on the literary. Have media classes beginning as early as 2nd Grade. Teaching the history of film, entertainment, television, programs and news... Teach them about these things, don't lock them in the closet. Don't bury them in the back yard. Curiousity killed the cat.... Not knowledge.
Of course... that's just my take on the matter.
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The government's "Tax and Spend" mentality is what has made the single-income family virtually extinct today.
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just what we need...a bunch of fucknuts deciding shit for the good of the nation. fuck that shit.
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Has anyone noticed how violent all those Japanese samurai films are? How come their crime statistics don't match ours? Our business world is a place where the morality of your actions isn't considered, people work in that environment of "kill the competition," they work in that mind set, then they're gonna come home and teach morality to their children? This country was completely born in violence, our language, our sports, our treatment of woman and children is violent. Religion has fallen from people's live's and kids don't sense anything is sacred anymore. Choose any/all of these theories. But when a government wants to control it's populace, they take away their art and education.
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#1 it isn't just the government that caused this problem. Corporatoin are not getting anywhere near there share of the blame. We live in a society that demand a return in months, and even days. We don't ever seem to be able to take a long term view on anything. I mean, if you start now in class rooms when kids are still in elementary school, you wouldn't get a return for 20 years at soonest. And it is corporations that have caused that mentality.
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#2 This has buzzword written all over it.
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#3 The whole idea of a 2 parent family IS DEAD! GET THE FUCK OVER IT! and mind you this is coming from somebody whose parents have been married for 30 years. the problem is we don't have time to watch our kids, and school don't want to deal with helping our kids. Monitoring every child to make certain that harrassment isn't going on is not done on any level, and is no where near being stop which would help. - - - - - - - -- -- - - - - - -- -
#4 It is a lot like the crime problem. In michigan, when crime went up, we built a number of prisons to house the criminals. The problem is, we are now runing out of space. And offical crime statistics haven't gone down. It isn't very popular to try and improve prison rehiblitation programs. - - - - - - - - - -- - ----- - -
#5 Other things need to get attention besides sports. How about this for an idea. No organized high school sports for at least one year! -
Sen. Brownback is from the great state of Kansas. A handful of Christian Fundamentalists recently gained majority vote on the Kansas State Board of Education and removed the theory of evolution from standardized tests statewide. Since students won't be tested on the subject at any grade level, teachers don't have to teach it. Even if a teacher wants to teach it, they'll have to justify spending classtime on a subject their students don't have to know. It's all perfectly legal and pretty damn clever. If you don't believe me, go to TIME.COM or SALON.COM and enter KANSAS into their search engine. You'll get plenty of proof. There's something weird going down in the heartland. Pay attention.
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the khumer rouge embraced the ideas of jean paul sartre and used them to justify genocide. but ideas, in our culture, are always defended no matter what the idea is. all men are created equal... true; all ideas are created equal... not true. And hollywood does not discern. It packages ideas that are distributed and consumed by the population at large, not to edify, but to profit. of course you'll say, 'it's up to the consumer to discern.' and i agree... but at some point, hollywood and the media at large will have to accept some of the blame for the pervading sense of meaninglessness that has crept into our culture.
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First the School Board Evolution debacle, now this. The fact that I'm currently attending college in Missouri is no excuse. What can I say, I'm sorry- I'll do whatever I can to lead the fight for artists' rights.
The most disturbing thing is, full-blown censorship may be getting some support. There are people who feel that since movies and TV are mere entertainment, they're not as worthy as political speech and therefore undeserving of the same protection. Take a look, the WEEKLY STANDARD had an article called "The Case for Censorship", and I've seen editorials and letters calling for the same.
Let's fight- our rallying cry, "You can have my copy of THE MATRIX when you pry it from my cold dead hands." -
Government CAN help the national culture, really. I honestly and truly believe that if the Senate and House and President got together to POSITIVELY affect culture, why not? What does positive mean? It means improved arts-in-education towards a moral, open society. It means talking about arts in a realistic manner, not censoring them. It means looking at the history of American art with a critical eye.
Do Brownback/Bennet/Lieberman have a point? Absolutely. Does the ACLU? YES! They're not mutually exclusive. Fund positive arts, like Ballet, Opera, Theatre, arts that have historical and community value. Talk and think crictically about the commercial arts, like film and television.
It's not wrong to continually questioning the direction of your culture.
I'm actually more concerned that we no longer have one, apart from commerce and a bunch of nerds arguing the cultural impact of Boba Fett. Yeah, that means you. -
Without prejudice or anger, it seems that even the most left-wing zealot and right-wing nut can agree: the answer to the problem is a two-parent family, with one parent at home. If it's that clear, then why can't we expend any energy in the direction of making that happen?
Harry decries the high price of real estate as an obstacle, and Proph JE just asks us to accept it as axiomatic - the two-parent family is dead. Jann Wenner, in a Rolling Stone editorial after Columbine, acknowledged that an at-home parent would have made a difference, but he and Proph JE were drinking from the same well. "Sorry, but this is the 90's," he said. "Mommy and Daddy work." Why can't anyone challenge this basic assumption?
My wife is a physical therapist, and for a year after our first child was born, I was a stay-at-home dad. With our second child here now, she's said, in effect, "now it's my turn." She is now a full-time mom, grateful for the opportunity. I make a decent wage working at a PR firm, but we're not, by anyone's standard, living in luxury. We decided that our family came first, and the rewards of knowing and raising our two girls far outweigh the benefits of living in a bigger house or going out to dinner more often.
Certainly creating a two-parent environment in a home is easier than changing the entire culture from the top down. Parents interested in their children will also take an active interest in what they do, watch, and think - and if that happened, you'd see a lot of the wretched excesses of our culture dry up for lack of demand.
If we know what the solution is, why can't we achieve it?
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Contact the Kansas Rep on the web! Someone out there should be able to find his e-mail address.
Harry your intentions are very good but for God's sake do something about it besides bitching all the time. We should be bombarding the MPAA and the rest of the culture nazi's with e-mail, snail mail, and phone calls. THAT is how you start to change things. THAT is how these loud mouth irresponsible parents who want to put their kids through college by winning a frivolous lawsuit are doing it!!! -
A Culture COmmittee. Hmmm. . . great idea. Oh wait. ANyway, the poster who mentioned the leveel of crime in Japan made a great point. Does no one find it unusual that this is really only a serious problem in the US? Doesn't anyone think that it's because we as a society are doing something wrong. I mean, they're watching the same goddamn movies in England, in Japan, in Australia, in Mongolia, for fuck's sake. It's not the media, stupid. It's us. It's parents, teachers, students, corporations, religions, it's everything. Our overall approach is fucked up. We're scared to educate our kids too much. We don't want to teach them sex ed, because we don't want them to have sex. Result: They have unsafe sex. We don't want to talk rationally about drugs, because we don't want them to take drugs. Result: They make poor decisions about drugs. We don't want to examine our surroundings to find out why kids are flipping out, because we're scared that it may be our fault. Result: ban all the fucking movies you want, but the problem is still this: We're paying attention to movies, but not to our kids. THEY should be the things they're focusing on, not fucking Keanu Reeves. We ned to teach kids the difference between right ore wrong. And I don't want to hear any shit about single parents and stay-at-home parents. My parents BOTH worked their asses off, were NOT home every minute because they couldn't afford it. I watched violent movies since I was 9. I went to public school. Result: A reasonably smart, college-educated guy with a good job. Of course I'm not a great sample size, but the pooint is this- statistically speaking, it's like 1 out of millions who are cracking up. Don't you think there's something to examine there? If the media were at fault, wouldn't we *all* be cracking up? No, it's problems with THAT kid, with the environment he's been in. But we're only interested in short term solutions to long term problems. Let's start burning fucking books, see where that gets us. Banning films, and turning down arts grants because we find exhibits offensive. Land of the free. Yup, that's what it's all about, right? right? I guess not anymore. MadBoy - angry and outta here.
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Why is the US Government investigating the effects of violence on youth? That's a psycological/sociological issue, to be investigated by members of these professions, not lawyers and politicians.
There are already ratings systems in place in the US. If they want to alter these, it's not great, but that really isn't their business either. However, this sounds like a move to censor material. As you learn in any basic psychology course, there is never just one thing that effects the overall behavior of an individual, and I get a sinking feeling that's what the government's aiming for here... -
compare their suicide rate with that of other countries.
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On the one hand, overseeing culture is not something that the *government* should be doing. This "culture committee" is just another manifestation of our Puritan prediliction to get paranoid and go hunting for witches, communists, political incorrectness, etc. However, I also cannot feel righteously indignant on behalf of the filmmakers, because, for every movie that uses violence or nudity for authentically artistic reasons, there are about 400 that use them for pure titilation, or out of simple laziness and uncreativeness. I don't believe there would be this kind of uproar if such elements were used in moderation, and where they really *meant* something. So, Hollywood has made this problem for themselves. It is stomach-churning to hear directors and studios complaining that the NC-17 rating limits them b/c they can't be true to their "visions" and still make a profit. If these directors the sensitive, dedicated artists that they claim to be, they would accept lower profits for the sake of being true to their vision. That said, a congressional committee on culture is NOT the answer. In fact, it isn't even addressing the real problem. I agree with Harry that economic and social concerns are much more responsible for our current societal problems than are our entertainment products. Many of these problems can & should be addressed by the government. There are also many, many things we can do as individuals, apart from the gov't, to alleviate them, at least to some degree, within our own lives. Certainly the cost of living has increased, but many things that consume our paychecks (and hence, the time we spend earning them) are not necessary. We don't NEED cable TV, home entertainment centers, the lastest computers, new cars, etc. etc. etc. Not that these things are bad, but they command far too much of our time and personal resources. So, basically, I guess I agree with Harry, but I would add that the studios (and most directors and other creative types) are not oppressed artists here, and the causes of the problems being addressed here run deeper than either the entertainment industry or government policy. Indeed, the example given above, of taking time off from personal priorities (presumably this very site) in order to help a family member, is exactly the type of thing that we should be doing more often.
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Sep 24, 1999 7:41:10 AM CDT
Hollywood Is Not, And Never Will Be, Responsible For Violence
by mrbeaks
Do they give morally suspect and/or crazy folk ideas? Sure. Is that Hollywood's fault? No. No sane person will ever be driven to commit violence by being fed a steady diet of violent, or prurient, images. Of course, it might give them a nudge in said violent direction, but, if such a senseless action is already an option, I submit that that person has already edged over the precipice of desperation and descended into the wonderful abyss of amorality (both of these wonderful locales may be easily plotted on a standard Rand McNally. Hint: try Kansas.) But really..... who's to say that viewing a typical episode of Touched By An Angel won't be enough to send one of these unhinged individuals running for Grandpa's conveniently unlocked gun cabinet (where all firearms are fully loaded, of course.) After all, it only took the Beatles' distortion-fueled, but lyrically benign, "Helter Skelter" to rile Charles Manson into a murderous tizzy. In all seriousness, though, every single Hollywood (and Independent) film, no matter how awful, performs that simple function as suggested by Shakespeare: they hold the mirror up to nature. By seeking to shatter that mirror, our consistently misguided elected officials are only finding yet another way to ignore the more pertinent issues facing this country.
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Of course it's easy for the senate to point fingers at the madie for all the problems in society. They feel that they have to stir up controversy so they can get re-elected. Didn't anyone else notice that we're coming up on an election year? But I do like the idea of teaching classes on the evolution of films, especially while they're young. This would show them to differentiate between fact and fiction at an early age. I don't think it's fair for senators to decide what we can or cannot see. This is going to be worse than McCarthyism. This is going to be a witchhunt, pure and simple. I grew up watching horror movies, and violent action films, and I have no intention of killing anybody. The kids don't learn violent behavior from films, they learn it from watching the world around them. They're learning it from their neighbors, or their friends.
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Sep 24, 1999 8:54:16 AM CDT
How about a committee to investigate the causes of violence?
by shadyone
That actually makes sense, but it will never happen. The Republicans will never let such a study occur because it opens up the issues of gun control, public housing, job providing, etc. I'm getting really sick of their posing while they sweep the real issues under the rug to avoid upsetting their political agenda. Despite all their moral posturing I consider Republicans to be extremely immoral in their lack of human compassion and willingness to except corporate dollars and use political maneuvering over the good of the country. Don't get me wrong, Democrats aren't much better, but I can't remember the last time I let out a string of profanities over something a democrat has done.
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...you've comitted THOUGHTCRIME!
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This is not only a good idea, but a long overdue one. The US is the only first world country that doesn't have required classes on media studies and manipulation, and also the only first world nation that does not include empathy training as a required course of study. The reason we don't have media studies is because the media and government don't want you to have it. The more the public understands how the media works and how it manipulates them the less likely the media will be able to do just that. And we can't have that now, can we. It would make it much more difficult to sell us stuff, and for the government to dick us around. Why no empathy training? My theory is that we simply are not a tolerant or empathetic society. We view the world as dog eat dog, and their's no use fot the kindness of others in that world view.
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Sorry about the previous post. Instead of bitching and spitting venom here in Talkback we should go to the source. Everyone go to www.senate.gov and e-mail Sen. Brownose..I mean Brownback. Tell your friends!! Post this on Slashdot.org!! Link to this article!! Do what it takes!! I hope that by the end of the day the mailboxes of Sen. Brownback and Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.) crash from all the mail. Be sure to act civil in your e-mail. And ask for a reply, it might increase your chances of them reading it. Fight the power!!
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Sep 24, 1999 9:25:37 AM CDT
Blame viloence on movies and videogames. Afterall, didn't Hitle
by brendan3
And Bonnie and Clyde must have watched Natural Born Killers too many times. You know, it's funny, but I looked in my History books and it seems violence and antisocial behavior have been around for a long time....even before movies. How about that? I learn something new every day.
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Immediately after the shootings at Columbine all the "experts" started pointing fingers at the movies, games, and music as the problem. They all talked about looking for the warning signs, meaning the music, games, movies, etc. They all seem to have disregarded the fact that these kids were picked on and harassed every day of high school. Everyone at the school, even the staff. agreed these kids were constantly picked on. Yet it must be the movies, music, or video games. You couldn't have had clearer warning signs. "gee, we fucked with them every day for the last three years and one day they blew up...maybe it was the music." People have to stop using the entertainment industry as a scapegoat. Though I do agree it has become a shit factory, but that doesn't make it responsible. You have to look at what's happening in kids' lives to see the problems.
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WTF did The Matrix have to do with the colorado killings, anyway? It was just another R rated film with gun-toating action. Did it have any involvement with schools? No! Did it suggest anything about the colorado killings? Well, if you are silly enough to actually think too hard, then maybe. But god, Matrix has violence. So fucking what?! There's lots of violent films on rental as well! If Hollywood wants to enforce the R rating business a little more, think again. Kids have access to R rated videos in REEL, Blockbuster, etc., so there is still a "problem". But the hell with this! Films and video games have nothing to do with these colorado killings! Maybe it's just that parents can't raise their kids well enough. I mean, we live in a society that is violent as it is. At least one person dies every day. Tell me, why the hell didn't the government do this enforcing on films a long time ago?! I mean, there were children killing children/adults/etc. way even before those colorado deaths! Talk about a lazy government we have. If the China government were in our situation, they'd be brutal.
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My best friend works in the criminal justice system. Recently, she attended a seminar here in L.A. that included a workshop on mass shootings. She learned an interesting fact about Columbine. Before the shootings, the good voters of Colorado voted down a bond measure for their schools, which prompted the high schools (including Columbine) to lay off their school psychologists. However, these same good voters passed a bond initiative for a sports stadium. Now, there's a smart set of priorities.
I think we get the children we deserve when we pass selfish, short-sighted, NIMBY-style initiatives like my own state's notorious Proposition 13. Our schools were in fairly decent shape until 1978, when that tax reform initiative was passed. Now California has bottom-of-the-barrel math and reading scores, and we can't fix 'em because our brilliant school districts are too busy buying up property contaminated with toxic waste.
Thanks to Prop 13 and even earlier efforts by Mr. Reagan when he was our governor, we have laughable state programs for the mentally ill. When a schizophrenic like the man who shot up the Capitol Building or the Nazi who gunned down people at the Jewish Community Center near my home becomes the focus of debate, just how useful is it to attack the artistic culture as opposed to shoring up our mental health system?
Rather than reform the school districts or insist on better programs for the mentally ill or get off our own asses to vote and make significant change, many Americans are content to sit back and let a clutch of culturally ignorant yahoos debate what we should see, read, or hear. (Remember how one Republican coma case referred to "Trainspotting" and "Pulp Fiction" as films that glamorized drugs?)
And if these elected yahoos really want to improve the cultural climate in this country, how come they've cut all the arts programs in our schools, dismissing them as "frills"?
Oh, that's right. We don't have time for the arts. We're too busy trying to get Creationism taught in science classes. The doorway straight to hell is on the right, ladies and gentlemen. -
Sep 24, 1999 11:17:27 AM CDT
thoughts from a memeber of the Kansas Republican party
by everett robert
ok the subject title should tell you about me and I hope that you dn't blow me off because of that subject but I wanted to get it out in the open. First of all about me, I'm 22 years old, born and raised in Kansas attented "fundamentalist" church, studied political science in college, have an Associates of applied science in radio and Televsion broadcasting and am currently studing drama at Emporia State University in Kansas. I have written for newspapers both columns on movies and politics and culture. I think that should qualify me as an expert of sorts, given my background in theatre, televison, and politics, and not just some net idiot blow smoke out of my butt and yes the name at the top is my real name.--Now concerning Sen. Brownbacks idea for a cultrual committe to study how cultrue affects family lives. I'm glad to see that Harry belives that a 2-parent household with one parent staying at home is a good idea, where were you when (then) VP Dan Quayle made those same remarks about Murphy Brown(in a speech that was more about family and less of an attack on the TV show) You were probably laughing just as hard as everyone else when those comments were made but were appluding when Bill Clinton and al Gore echoed those same remarks. But this has nothing to do with the subject at hand I'm sorry I got off track there for a minute. The question at hand is: Do We need a cultrual committe to study the effects of culture on today's youth. NO! Does that surprise you, I hope so. I agree with a lot of talkbackers who say that this is just kneejerk politicans who are looking for attention in all the wrong places. The blame for violence today does not land SOLELY on Hollywoodland but it doesn't EXCUSE Hollywood for their actions. Listen I love movies just as much as the next person. I have hundreds of movies on VHS and hope one day to be working in movies either as a director or and actor. A large majority of blame rests on those people who ignore the social outcasts, to the parents who "just don't understand" The problem isn't in California, the problem with today's youth lies in the fact that parents and kids aren't talking. When I watched the Dirty Harry movies with my father, he always told me that this is just fantasy not reality, he taught me how to properly use a weapon, and he taught me right from wrong. We have to admit that EVERYONE has a moral compess inside of them. We may say that right from wrong is subjective but when given certain situations I think we'll find that a compess that tells us right from wrong exists in each of us. Blaming the media doesn't solve the issue of where these kids went wrong and politicans need to realize that. However this doesn't exclude Hollywood fromt he equation Hollywood needs to show us the consquences of the actions taken. I can think of maybe a handful of films in the last couple of years that actually show the consquences of ones actions(The Apostle immeditly springs to mind, as does surprisingly maybe Pushing Tin with John Cusack and Billy Bob Thorton, Cusak did things that were fundamentally wrong as did Thorton and Cusak had to face those problems) The Problem I relize with showing the consquences of ones actions as it threatens on the border of melodrama, but even in the world of movie fantasy needs to be rooted in a touch of reality(unless of course you're dealing with something off the wall fantasy such as LOTR or STAR WARS)--Maybe my words are falling on deaf ears I don't know all I know is that something has to be done, both at home, in school, and in the media. We need to get centered. We don't a cultural Commitee Sen. Brownback what we need is a reevaulation of our morals as a nation. We need to get back to, not the 50s, but to the basics of life. We need to look toward religion, and I'm not just saying Judeo-Christian, but anytype of religon that preaches that violence in ANY form is wrong. We need to get back to parents showing children that actions have consquences and that one needs to follow his moral compess, when sometihng feels wrong it probably is, I can't see anyone justifing blowing up a building or killing classmates or anything like that unless he is CERTIFABLY insane and in that case media isn't to blame, society isn't to blame, it's just something went wrong upstairs and that person needs to be treated, helped and punished all at the same time. My thoughts kep drifting back to Stephen King's book "RAGE" where a young man, holds his class hostage. what happens at the end? he is locked up and sent away. You see his actions had consquences, we need to remember that in everything we do, weather it be writting a talkback fromt he safty zone of net anominity, or ,in the case of celebrities, giving an interview, what you say DOES matter, or if you're a kid looking for attention and revenge, what you do does have consquences, you have to remember that you just can't get away with it, no matter WHAT you do--bottom line is we don't need politicans telling us what we can and can't make as artists, we don't need a "cultral committe" peering down on art, literature, music, and film like an Orwellian Big Brother, we don't need senseless, no consquential violence on TV and film. What we need is to look to ourselves, to our moral compess, what we need is people who aren't afraid to stand up and say NO! WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS CRAP ANYMORE to anyone who infringes on our freedom of speech, we need people who aren't afraid to tell children that there is a difference between reality and TV/Movies. And we need to punish those who decide to infringe on our rights by taking a gun to school or to church or whatever and starts to kill people.--sorry this is so long and long winded thanks for reading--Everett Robert
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I can't believe this. If this plan goes through, there isn't going to be any good art anywhere. And both liberal and conservative would fuck it up royally. You really think either party is really sincere about protecting anybody? The only reason Sen Brownback is giving us this shite is to win conservative votes. There are probably a lot of liberals who want to do the same thing, only spin it so as to pander to liberal voters.
And about the two-parent family thing--you can't just leave the kids unguided. There has to be a parent there at all times. I have never been rich by any stretch of the imagination. But I went through a lot of shit in High school, and I thank God that my parents had their priorities straight.
By the way, I like that rallying cry--"You can have my copy of the Matrix when you pry it from my cold dead hands."
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Technology is great. I think it's wonderful that children are being taught about it at an early age. Unfortunately, they understand how to use it, but do not understand the cultural changes that come with it. Media and culture studies are needed to help them understand what is going on in their world. I hear too many stories of children getting ulcers and stressing out because of all the pressures these new changes put on them. It's too fast and they aren't given a chance to be kids anymore. Technology and media should be an education and entertainment enhancer and not the main focus of a child's first years.***I applaud the person above who successfully manages to have one stay-at-home parent, but you must understand that in many cases its not possible because the family wouldn't just be scrimping and pinching to make ends meet, they would be scrimping and pinching to make ends closer to meeting. There are more poor paying jobs out there than good ones and instead of worrying how some movies are affecting our kids, we need to think how WE are affecting our kids. We need to slow down, we need to take time off, we need to look at other cultures and try some new approaches to how we handle sex education, technology, the workplace/coporate environment, and our own government. We need to stop worrying about how one religion, one race, one sex or one group of people looks at things and see there are many other points of view in our nation that need to be listened to. That's my rant, I could have gone on, but y'all seem to be taking care of other points I wanted to make.
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Go ahead, point fingers at Hollywood. They deserve it. Anyone remember a little film called THE PROGRAM? They had to cut the scene where the kids lay down on a yellow line dividing a highway after some real kids got killed pulling the same stunt. How about BASKETBALL DIARIES, cited by 4 out of 5 school shooters as their motivation? Ok, I'm exaggerating that last statistic, but a couple of those kids did say the movie gave them the idea. And there's the problem. Movies do give some people ideas, so Hollywood cannot be absolved of its responsibility. Neither can the parents who don't know that their kids are making bombs in the garage. Neither can the kids themselves who, in their shortsighted immaturity, think that emulating what they see in the movies will make them happier, level the playing field, or send some sort of a "message" to America. Everyone and everything around us in some way contributes to the problems we have today. We live in a hypersensitive mediasaturated society in which any viewpoint, no matter how extreme, can find reinforcement with the push of a button. Does this mean we should censor movies? No more than it means we should remove all hate sites from the 'Net. These are things that come with an open society. But there's something else that must come with an open society: personal responsibility, and that's the one thing that this nation is severly lacking. Take Columbine, for example. The tragic events that unfolded at that school formed the climax of years of neglect, abuse, and violent stimulation directed at Harris and Klebold. Their parents are guilty, the school system's guilty, the makers of Doom are guilty, the kids who taunted them are guilty. Most of all, the killers themselves are guilty for taking such horrific action. But who created the environment that allowed them to make that decision? Everyone around them. If their parole officers had taken a little more interest in them, maybe it wouldn't have happened. If their parents occasionally visited the garage, it wouldn't have happened. Ultimately, everyone needs to take a good hard look at how their actions affect those around them. This includes Hollywood, where producers and studios spend millions on research to find out what pushes people's buttons. Try and use some judgement with that information. There's a single choice we all must make: To point fingers or to watch out for each other. If you spend all your time pointing fingers, don't be surprised when a gun-toting maniac starts firing at you, because you haven't done a thing to fix the problem.
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A lot of Americans are blame-throwing for this recent rash of teen violence. Hollywood, Mom (no one really expects Dad to stay home), School, the Internet. Apparently they're all at fault.
Has it never occured to any of you that your teenagers are violent because your culture is built around guns?
Sorry, but duh! -
I got a nasty e-mail from someone who called my observation about the need for two-parent families, with one stay-at-home parent, "clueless." Based on this discussion, I keep hearing that the world is unfair, and that not everyone can stay home, etc. Well, of course the world is unfair. Of course not everyone can stay home. However, it's not the government's responsibility to fix it - it's YOURS. If you don't want the government to regulate and control what you watch or think - which, I gather from the tenor of this discussion, is a pretty universal attitude among talk-backers - then why do you want the government to be the big nanny that tucks you in at night? Everyone admits that two-parent families are the ideal, but since the government can't legislate a return to the ideal, no matter how hard they try, everyone says nothing can be done! What a load of crap! Take responsibility, folks, and do it! It CAN be done! If you want the government to butt out of your lives in what your children watch, read, and think, then assume responsibility and quit whining about how tough it is. If you can't put your kids first in your life, then DON'T HAVE KIDS!
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First, to whomever stated that America is the only first world country that doesn't have mandatory media training or empathy training, well, don't get carried away. Canada doesn't either. But oddly, we don't go around blowing each other away nearly as often... I read a stat today that there were more murders in New York last year than ALL of Canada...Odd, we have far more restrictive gun laws too.... but hey, guns don't kill people, bullets do. Guns just make the bullets move very very fast.
Columbine was the most recent in a train of high school shootings, and mark my words, it will NOT be the last...
Why not? Because your government's solution was to try and pass another weak-assed gun law which prevents buying guns from a flea-market on a sunday if you're over the age of 80, or somesuch similar nonsense... The problem has not been identified, or solved... so, get ready for the next one... Of course, it won't make the news unless the death toll is over 20...
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Talking to a politician about sociology is like talking to an eight-year-old about sex. They know all the words but they don't have a clue!
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I can say Sam needs to stop waxing censorship and start kicking ass for a tax cut, so married people don't have to work 2 jobs to support their family and pay taxes. I'm sure as hell glad my mom was able to stay home with me when I was little. My folks took the time to explain right and wrong to me, and tried to keep me from "bad" material until I was mature enough not to be a little monkey. That's all parents have to do to raise well-adjusted, pacifist, violent movie loving kids.
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is this country. We're animals. It happens. I'm not saying that nothing can be done, but it happens. At least 10% of all creatures are just plain nuts. It's the case with almost every type of creature, including humans. Something that makes the majority of people able to survive and balance themselves while doing a minimal amount of violence to those around them is lacking in these folks. These people are just plain crazy. Fueled by T.V. violence and enabled by the easily accessible weapons of destruction, they kill and they kill. Everyone of us has the capacity to kill, but most of us are able to quell that urge. It's pretty frickin hard though, in a country that has more acts of violence per capita than many countries that are "at war" (ex, ireland and lebanon, two countries who experienced "civil war" have smaller murder rates than the US). So, yeah I agree there's a lot of things to blame. So, take a good look at yourself and say, "am I one of those crazy mofos?" if so, do us all a favor and off yourself. ;-) hehe, I don't know what this has to do with the whole discussion, but fuck it.
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Sep 24, 1999 1:18:10 PM CDT
Just because some people choose to use their freedom to do bad t
by paragonian
Who are these morons in Congress. Thank god I'm gonna be old enough to vote in the next election. By the way Republicans and Democrats as soon as a good independent candidate for president comes along (No Perot, Buchanan, Ventura) I'm gonna vote for em. I vote for Bill O'Reily.
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My friend Craig and I are sitting here reading the News, and we've come to the conclusion that we need to move.
This state sucks. We are now the laughingstock of the country. Never mind that we have numerous universities, colleges, and actually have some intelligent people.
But no- the idiots at the state board of education have determined that macroevolution is merely a "theory" and therefore does not *have* to be thought. The sad part is, this may be carried over to Physics. I shit you not. they actually say that you can't "prove" gravity. (I actually tend to agree with this, using the theory from Bruce Bethke's "Headcrash" that it's merely the Great Earth Goddess sucking for all she's worth).
And now this... well, lovely. My main issue with this Comittee on Culture is that they're merely focussing on one side of the issue. For a study to have any validity, it has to be able to be traced throughout history... and there haven't been any studies in the past on this- so what are they comparing it to?
Violence has escalated since the appearance of movies in the early popular culture of the 1900s. Yes, but so has the population.
And also, a study needs to focus on both sides of the issue. Else, your results are skewed.
So, yep- this state is a big fat place of idiots. The conservatives are slowly choking the life from the intellectuals and people with any sort of education. I have the great pleasure of living in a college town, where there is actually a market for an independant movie theatre, "real" theatre, a live music scene, and the like.
But not everyone else has this advantage, and I'm worried for the kids in the small towns who might never get to see Dogma or hear the Dead Kennedys on the radio.
My $0.02,
SkaJester -
I fully agree with your points. I believe (and have for several years) that PC will be the death of us all. If ever comes the day a politician decides it's up to *him* and the U.S. Congress to decide what I can watch and what I can read, I'm going to jump on the first Concorde over to England, patiently dig up the skull of George Orwell, and look him straight in the eye-socket while I tell him: "You were right, George, you were right."
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What you all need to do is voice your opinions in a thoughtful and intelligent manner to the man himself! Below you will find Sam Brownback's email address... Whether or not he actually reads his mail or not, I urge you all to WRITE him and express how you feel! ------------------------------------------------
http://www.senate.gov/~brownback/email.html -
Know what really bugs me about the coverage of Columbine... they kept on saying the freeks got their bad influences from playing Doom. DOOM???? Doom was around before these kids even entered high school. Heck, Doom2 was dated by then! Isn't it possible these kids played Quake... or even Quake2? I mean, this was a rich, white, suburban school... dind't they have access to current games, and Pentium class computers? Who the hell plays Doom these days?
If the media was going apeshit over the violent images in Doom, imagine if they looked at Kingpin! -
....yeah, you shouldn't have kids if you're not going to put them first in your life, but what about those who have already had kids and find that it just doesn't work or the father gets laid off because the corporation sold its factory in the area and mom and dad have to go out and each find low-paying jobs? I don't think the person above meant these people, so don't take offence if that is the case. Also, there is more opportunity now to stay at home and work a schedule that fits your family's needs, although most of those jobs are still up there on the success ladder. I don't blame government, I don't blame the people who have to take two jobs, I don't know who to blame...maybe that's the problem...we're too busy laying blame to sit down and figure out what's really going on and try to fix it as best as possible.
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Believe me I'm 16! I was just having a conversation about this WITH my parents, i might be one of those kids that will go places with my parents and i like to. I want to think that movies are not the cause for everything that falls apart in society. Dude, i went to Stigmata and what-not with my dad, so fucking what! it was pretty good honestly! But really folks, what we need to do is pass around a paper, or e-mail to everyone here and everyone we know and then take it to the President (and shuv it up his ass) and say
"We the people of the UNITED states in order to for a more perfect here by declair the policies of the government and President can NO LONGER blame Hollywood in feal good legislation. We are not to be your play toys any longer if you want to lie and blame someone besides yourself it is time to yeep the world wind people what comes around goes around" And have everyones of us sign this. -
Could the makers of THE PROGRAM honestly have predicted that people would be so harebrained as to try that? No. Could the Beatles have predicted Charles Manson would use "Helter Skelter" to justify his actions? Could J. D. Salinger... you get the idea. Artists should not take responsibility for the actions of idiots. Anyone who tries lying down in the middle of traffic is just proving Darwin's theory of natural selection.
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I have spent most of my life living in Kansas and I have to tell you that in over 25 years this is the first time in my life I want to leave. But I cant do that. I have to stay and try to vote that moron Brownback out of office. I
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I bet most people dont realize that the murder rate this year is the LOWEST it has been in the past 20 years. this is statistical fact. Its numbers. The massacre at Columbine was horrendous, but it is not an enigma by any means. There have been such instances like this in the past, and when they occured ppl had the same reaction. It is always more of an impact when large numbers are killed at the same time. I dont see the country being any more violent now then it was in the past. Just look to the facts, not the hype. As far as does media contribute to an association of violence? Of course it does, but to what extent is this association. We are a nation grown up on gi joe for boys and barbie for girls, you dont think this influences our development? Especially before the age of 5. Its basic developmental psychology. We are influenced and shaped by our surroundings. If our surroundings are hyper violent, this will show. Now are Movies and Music violent enough to the point wherein we should censor them? Of course not. This is the job of the parent. For all the time energy money and resources spent on the focus being the fault of the media, much better use could be put to the issues which really matter. We need to focus on improving our educational system, and the increasing dispersion of the ever dwindling middle class. The focus is not where it should be now, but at the same time, its ignorant for people to think that TV doesnt influence behaviour, its a stimuli, like any other one, and its one that people spend massive amounts of time exposed to. Does this country really need guns for instance? The right to bear arms is a complete anachronism, it existed ONLY because there was no established militia to defend the ppl. Our military was the Minutemen, everyday folk whom had their guns in their homes on standby. We now have a strong militia, the law is outdated and only still exists due to the tremendous lobbying power of the NRA.
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More idiocy from the "think of the children" brigade. It's obviously an election year coming up; the only thing missing is Bob "Nightmare of Depravity" Dole. Let's blame the movie, that's much easier. Or the current whipping boy, computer games. It's so easy; after all, computer games can't vote, so how can you offend them? It's easy to hate something you know nothing about; let's just ban it and all our problems will be solved. What will the committee recommend? More 'Andy Hardy' movies? Pat Boone records? Here in Canada, a lobby group is proposing a tax (minimum 1%) on all sales of violent video games, violent videos, and tickets to violent movies. Why? To raise money for victim's rights groups, of course. Indeed a noble cause, but isn't there a better way to go about this? I'm just hoping no strapped-for-ideas and desperate for re-election congressman isn't reading this.
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What's great about the government forcibly repressing (or for some, brainwashing) the people back to perverted 1950 style values, is that there will undeniably be another huge backlash, like in the 60's. Something like that would mean lots of anti-establishment style entertainment for all, and possibly another psychedelic boom. Let the pressure mount! These kids today need some opinions! Attica! Keep the people on their toes.
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Isn't the right to bear arms great! Now that these burglars have learned that their intended victims are packing heat, they will now go out and legally purchase a gun or obtain a stolen gun (... stolen from someone who had bought it legally!!)for their next job. They probably won't give their victims a chance either, less the victim has time to run to the rifle cabinet. You better hope that they don't plan on revisiting grandpa, a little more prepared.
While I agree that guns don't kill people, people kill people, you all must admit this one thing. I would prefer that my child encounter the psycho teenager with a knife, rather than a fully loaded semi-automatic pointed 10' from his face. I think it's much more feasible to disarm the population first, then begin psychological overhaul of the masses, not the other way around.
hjackson -
I have never used talk balk, but I have read them from time to time. I love this issue that Harry has brought up. People are activly discussing their opinions in open forum and I like it. I was strongly compelled to use this topic as a spring board for some of my opinions regarding the state of "American Culture", which they actually think they need to form a committee over to decide what needs to be done to fix the problems with said "Culture". Well, HELLO SEN. BROWNBACK!, and everyone else for that matter, YOU are a part of this, of OUR, "American Culture" as well, so maybe you should waste my tax dollars on studying yourself, your way of life, what you watch and read and see and do, too. I remember a famous quote my father taught me a few year's back, from the comic strip, POGO, which read as Pogo stood infront of a mirror, somewhat surprised, "We have seen the enemy, and it is us..."
Men of sound mind are murdering their families, are murdering strangers. Children of sound mind and great intelligence are murdering their peers and killing themselves. Men and women across the supposedly greatest nation in the world are destroying themselves with addictions and depression. Good people are giving in to the daily stuggle to walk a straight and narrow path to, for most, an unforseen goal, an unknown destination. Nothing, not even life itself, seems to matter anymore. Why? I don't know.
I hate Columbine. I hate the school, I hate the disaster that happened there, I hate the principals, the teachers, the students, the building, everything. I live thousands of miles away from that wretched place and I hate it everyday since I saw armored police surrounding it on the news. It finally struck me that the children of the older generation are living in a world of utter disorder. I always think the words "I told you so" when I think of Columbine. It seems that time has come to its final wall and it finally tore it down, to me. People, generation after generation, have been fighting to tear down everything in their path, every ruler, every rule, every code, every idea, every standard, everything! We have torn it all down, destroyed everything that represents one human trying some way of loving (in the Agape since, not romance, but real sacrificial love) another human to the point that so many children cannot even love themselves. So, I think to my self and fight back the dread, that we've torn it all down and now there is nothing left that means anything, because, somehow, there is a problem with every THING, every IDEA, every PERSON, every POSSIBILITY, every JOY, every ENTERTAINMENT, every DISCUSSION, every CONCLUSION, that we can only destroy ourselves. Those two kids were left to destroy themselves and every student who survived. Nobody taught them LOVE. Even that idea has no tolerance in this "American Culture". Nobody taught their abusers real LOVE. I hate Columbine because it, and the shootings before it and the shootings after it, especially in this decade, represent the complete loss of LOVE that has festered in our country.
People only seem to love themselves, if even that lasts. People are so bent on protecting theirselves and their lives and their MONEY that nothing else has anymore importance. The fact that GROWN ADULTS would allow their children to BELIEVE that they are better than another is disgusting to me. The fact that GROWN ADULTS would allow their own children to BELIEVE that their are no consequences for any decision is too much for me to comprehend. The fact that GROWN ADULTS BELIEVE that "Somebody else will somehow take care of it" is the worst possible precept in the universe.
WE must look at ourselves. Not our Art, not our Movies, not our peers, not our governments. They are all full of corruption in one form or another, and are only reflections or refelctions of oursleves. We must look directly, eye to eye. What happened to loving the INDIVIDUAL. I'm young and if I didn't experience otherwise so far in my life, I'd actually believe it NEVER existed. What ever happened to understanding each other? Why do people lock themselves away in their homes and complain about the neighbor's problems when they fail to look at their own? Why do we expect committees to solve our problems, politicians to solve our problems? Why can't we solve ourselves? You know, a movie is just that, a movie. Celluloid or whatever the heck they make the film out of. Light. Your neighbor is flesh and blood like you. Not a thing that vanishes and disappears when you shut it off or leave the room. Maybe we should start being better towards each other and not be so afraid of the world that there is no hope.
I thought movies were supposed to be about hope, in the end, no matter what it is about. A hope for a better world, a better outcome, a better entertainment, a better conclusion, a better joy, a better feeling and something to ponder or excite for hope for greater things to come. Whether is sets out to titilate or provoke or inspire or simply get butts in seats, it still remains the hope of a better picture. I hope things will get better. I have no answers, I have no basic logical plan, no simple solution. But I hope we will look to ourselves to see our own sins for what they've destroyed, and stop believing that an elected government will take care of it for us. It's beyond obvious why kids are not shooting each other because of a game or a movie or a song or a superstar. Yes, image leads to thought leads to desire lead to impulse leads to action leads to repetition leads to habit leads to addiction leads to destruction, BUT I KNOW THAT somehow if we cared enough about ourselves we'd care enough to step in and stop it. By ourselves. To say without saying it that we need each other to survive. You don't have to do it on a global scale or even a local scale. It begins in your immediate self. Then you move outward as far as you are able to go, to care about others. To decide that you're life is so important that you don't have to or need to, while still your choice, is a foolish one, I believe, because then you throw out the idea that your happiness ultimately depends on the strangers surrounding you. You can help them by not assuming someone else will. By not assuming a poorly funded or highly funded school will teach your children how to live their lives. And don't assume that by letting them find out on their own that they'll be better off that that is a good decision either. All real lessons are learned through pain and loss. PLEASE let it be your own sacrifice they learn from, not theirs. You say, "well everybody goes through this, or everybody goes through that" WELL, HELLO! Maybe you could warn them first and tell them how the heck you got through it. Teach your children. Don't let some mind numbing TV do it, and don't let some greedy politician have to stoop so low as to regulate how your TV does it. The movies are not to blame, its always the people who allow, ignorantly or purposely, the youth to see them that are to be accused, not because they should have stopped them, but because they should have let them know what they're getting into.
And all of this is made so much sadder by the fact it revolves around economic factors. Money. Money is only money, and no committee is going to change that. People want it more than life itself. That is too sad. Life comes before money. Too bad money rules life thereafter. Don't forget to remember your children. It's nice to have it all, but it is way more important to be nice. Give a little. Respect a little. You don't have to be your parents to be a parent to your child. You can teach and not rule. You can guide and not push. You can befriend and not care about what the world thinks.
It is very good to believe "nobody tells you what to do". I do. But you tell yourself. Listen to you heart before you listen to your mind or your wallet or your crotch or your hatred. Not only will you know what right and wrong is, you'll know why.
So, anyway, sorry I sound so preachy. I have seen the enemy, and it is me, too. But I have hope. By the way, I'm under twenty years old. So, you must assume, YOU MUST judge that my words are trite and meaningless. It is your job to believe it, because you've been doing it all along and so have I. Youth have nothing to say, right? Bob Dole does, though, for the right price. George W. Bush does. Al Gore does, right? If they pay for your attention. Money: Destroying hope one dollar at a time. -
No, the government shouldn't censor art, but I think every artist should ask themselves whether they can stand behind the messages conveyed in their work. I'm not talking about the stray screwballs in the audience who are so warped that they think "Helter Skelter" is telling them to slaughter people. Just in general, is your movie or TV show or song sending out a message to the public which you could defend rationally?
In the new Premiere, Spike Lee and Martin Scorsese, those two noted advocates of censorship, have a very well-balanced discussion of all the influences that everyone has been discussing in these TalkBacks, but I found this one passage particularly interesting:
Scorsese: But don't you think too that, on the other hand, a certain kind of stylized violence is something we have to look at?
Lee: Audiences think it's fun.
Scorsese: They think it's fun. But you desensitize. When you show violence, let's say, in a "Taxi Driver", it's not funny - it's ugly. In "Summer of Sam", the violence was extremely upsetting.
Lee: I think that's a good point. I still think that filmmakers have to be responsible. They have to know that a film still has a very powerful impact, and you can't mess with that. -
I don't know, frankly, if there is a way to stop this problem, but I am positive that the media did not start it. I am truly convinced of that. Life is a long, frustrating ordeal. It always has been. it always will be. It is our job as human beings to deal with that. Take responsibility for your own actions and expect people to take the responsibility for theirs. Violence is not the answer, nor is drinking, nor is drugs. Therapy might be, but who can afford that? So what is left? Talking. Isn't that what therapy is anyway? Got a problem? Tell your friends. Got no friends? Tell a bartender. That's what they are there for. Having a few emotional problems? There are public counseling centers set up to help you through that sort of thing. There are suicide hotlines. If you feel homicidal rather than suicidal, then I'm sure they can talk you through that as well. As human beings we need to forget about all of our own pety needs and learn to help those we love and care about, and even those who we don't even know who we feel may be having a hard time. Movies do not cause the violence in society, but if someone who is in the wrong frame of mind hears the wrong song or watches the wrong movie at the wrong time, it could contribute to a certain mood they are in and cause some not good things to happen. Now, I am not saying that the rest of us so-called normal people should be punished for what some sad individuals might do. I'm just saying that there should be more places for people with these problems to go. More places to help. There should also be a way to help parents spend the time they need to with their kids. It's far too easy to be a lazy parent today. Perhaps it shouldn't be. Most of the people who commit these heinous crimes aren't monsters. They are people who are frustrated, they are confused by the things of life. If they get some help, someone to reach out to them, a better job for God's sake, then maybe things would be better. I don't have all the answers and I'm not saying that I do. I'm just spitballing, throwing these ideas out there... into a message board where they probably won't even be read, but oh well. Thank you for your time, and, no, I am not running for office.
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Why do we have to start blaming things? Everyone asks, "What did those Columbine kids listen to, what movies did they watch?" Why can't they just be crazy? It was a horrible tragedy and I mean no disrespect to the victims but those kids were fuckin' nuts and the movies should not be blamed because some kids feel the need to shoot their classmates, whether it was inspired by Matrix or Basketball Diaries or Marilyn Manson. As The line says in Kevin Williamson's Scream script, "Movies don't create psychos, movies make psychos more creative!"
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I'm conservative by nature. I don't believe in hand outs, I don't believe in relying on anyone for anything that you can't do yourself. Including the government. But, when I see whacko zealots from what I consider to be my party attacking Hollywood (just because their liberal) and saying that somehow what is put in a theater actually is the catalyst for atrocities it makes me, well, angry. I don't need the government doing my movie watching for me either. And guess what? I don't feel like blowing anything up. Why? Because I'm WELL ADJUSTED. I came from a divorced home, but it was always instilled in me that that was not the way it was supposed to be. In addition I always knew that if I were to have kids (which I do) I would have to have them with a woman who like me, viewed them, not her career as THE priority (which I did). So, I have worked hard to be able to do that. I support the temporal needs of my family as well as always being there for my wife and daughter. My wife in turn raises our child acording t our bleifs and she supports me when I need it. I'm middle class America and proud of it. I OWE THIS ALL TO MY MOM AND DAD. Yes they were divorced, but they both let it be known that you were supposed to stay together and that they had failed (notice the lack of BS No "we grew apart" there). So yes Harry I agree. A parent needs to stay home and take care of the kid.
*Note: This is not be construed as a criticism of good women who were left by scum men. A man who walks away from his responsibility is just a deplorable as a woman who has the option to put her child first and does not.
Finally. I disagree with the idea that the schools should teach media studies in second grade. I don't want some harry armpitted bra burner teaching my child "how to interpret" the world. I think that this is a great idea for Jr. High and High School, when the parents have lived up to their responsibility and taught the child their way. That way the child has another point of view against which to balance what he/she is being taught. Thanks for reading if you got this far. If you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear it.
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I'm not a Libertarian (at least I don't think I am, I may have to look more closely at their platform), but I do appreciate one insight they made: the first and second amendments depend on each other for survival. If we start looking for loopholes in one, it opens up the door to look for loopholes in the other- it might possibly apply to the entire Bill of Rights, come to think of it. So although I personally dislike guns and don't plan on owning one, for now I'll be fine with making sure the existing gun laws are properly enforced. Let's see what effect that has before going further.
Spike Lee may not be a censorship advocate, but he sure enjoys condemning other people's work. I think "glamorized" violence, such as that in James Bond films and space operas, etc., becomes almost mythic, emblematic. I don't view it as reality any more than I confuse the gritty violence of DAWN OF THE DEAD with reality. Sure, gratuitous violence should be avoided just as anything gratuitous should be avoided, but I don't trust many people to make that decision. There are people who thought the sex in CRASH was gratuitous when it was the main theme of the film; people who thought the violence and brutality in THE LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT was gratuitous when it was a vital part of the film's effect (which ironically was to resensitize people to violence by bringing it close to home.)
And one absolution for THE MATRIX, to be used whenever it needs defending; when Neo and Trinity go on their major offensive in the film's third act, they do it with a purpose; to save Morpheus. Every thing they do is geared towards that act. The killers at Columbine, however, had no goal. They killed for the sake of killing, not discriminating between Jews, blacks, or white Christians. They declared war on the entire human race. In a game of DOOM, they'd be the demons. And if anyone there had the opportunity, there would have been no crime in taking them out. -
Ok, there are many obvious errors posted in this forum. To assume that 2 parent families "just are" is terribly naive. The cause of this dilema is groups like Planned Parenthood. With radical feminist agendas put forth in the 60's, they made women think they wanted to work all the time, just like their husbands. So, what happened? They did, and families had more money. So what happended? Inflation. So what happened? Infalation rose to the point that both parents "had" to work. (though I think this is not true if you can live with fewer "things") So, most of you are putting things backwards. Women started working, and then women "had" to work. We can solve this by saying "no more". It will be tough, but have 1 parent stay at home. If enough people do this, we can stop the damage done to our society by Planned Parenthood. Look at the facts, and the historical charts of when things started to go bad, and you'll see I'm 100% right.
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1st ammedment: freedom to be brainwashed by corporate america. 2nd ammendment: freedom to live in fear and stroke your gun while you compensate for an undersized penis. isnt america wonderful?
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I was always of the opinion that if television and film always had such influence on how people think and interact, then seeing one of those very special "Family Matters" (or every other show in existence) with Urkel (or whatever appropriate character there is in the show in question) turning in guns or telling the class bully to be kinder to the gay, handicapped kid would be enough to wipe crime and prejudice out of the world's collective psyche.
But it doesn't, huh? -
I totally disagree with what that poster said about teaching Creationism and and about the goals of the republicans. The Christian "theory of Creation is not a scientific theory, it is 3000 year old rhetoric with no basis in reality. No one has ever found a piece of information in support of Creationism, and evolution is a fully credited theory held to be true by the scientific community, who should really be in charge of the science curriculms at school. You don't hear people in Europe and Asia bitching about evolution; even the pope has acknowledged it's importance. We here in America are cursed with just a bunch of backward thinking morons that would send us back to the 1600's. Also, The Republicans don't stand for freedom of religion; they stand for freedom of orthodox christian religion. And I am betting that the Kansas schools aren't teaching the Hindu, or shinto views of creation, are they!
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sorry.. just to tie two thoughts together..
so.. Columbine.
and two parent families.
at least one of those kids came from a home where one parent stayed home.
and they still had "issues"
nothing is a perfect fix -
For someone who fires ammo like "mindless conservative" you sure tout the Left party line pretty well. Just because some suggest the offensive notion that a woman's child should be more important that her career does not make her husband a wife beater. Honestly, talk about alarmist. In fact a husband willing to sacrifice the extra income that his wife could bring in so that she can stay home is probably a guy worth keeping around. I don't think anyone here is saying women should be subservient to men. If a woman wants to have a career, then have a career. And be damn good at it. But if she wants to have a kid, that should be the priority, not her ego. Many women feel that this is unfair. Their probably right, but it is more unfair to have a baby and then pretend that every thing goes back to normal after the baby is born. Secondly, you need to crack open a book before you hurl baseless "facts". The rich got richer and so did the poor (don't trust 20/20, do the reading yourself). Two income families exist to support their "stuff", not their families (most of the time) and while your attacking the rich you may want to take a look at those who pay no taxes. Who are they? Nearly 45% of America. The very poor. NOTE: I never called you fuckface or an asshole to make any of my points.
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Sep 26, 1999 1:17:29 AM CDT
To Stallion Cornell, Everett Roberts, Smoov Gruion/PaddyO'Furnat
by proph je
Before I start, I wanna apoligies for doing a post for no reason. Hit the return button to early. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - THe reason the 2 parent family is dead is because of a number of things. 1. THe cost of living has increased dramatically. 2. To potentially get the money, you have to work your arse off until you reach promotion. 3. Benefits are gone. My family has gone through some seriously hard times, and the only way we made it was due to my grandparents intervention. People who want the government to do less should live through what I lived. In all reality it wasn't that hard for yours truely, but I saw my dad, and my mom worry like there was no tomorrow. And I know it took its toll. My mom got fucking breast cancer, and stress almost always increase your cancer risk. - - - -- - - - - - -- to ER. I agree we need to teach our children non-violence, alhtough religion isn't the only method. And I agree about consequences. However, the other thing we do need is more monitorying in school. WE HAVE TO PREVENT SIMPLE TEASING. Going all the way back to kindergarden, and until Senior year of high school. - - - -- - - - - - -
To Smoov Gruion/Paddy O'Furnature, have either of you had experince with Anti-depressents? I can claim first hand knowledge. This whole idea about poping a pill and you will feel bliss is bullshit (at least for me, and for what I am taking) I currently am on a regiment of Adderal (for ADD) and Wellburtrian. What the Wellburtrian does for me is make my emotions more stable, not instant bliss. I agree happiness takes a lifetime to achieve, but when your emotions go from instant highs to instant lows for no reason, believe me that will cause almost anyone problems. - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -
And Finally, I know I am going to take a lot of crap for this, and I do feel sorry for the kids who got shot at Columbine, but to a large degree, THEY GOT WHAT THEY FUCKING DESERVED. And I can't hold the 2 boys who did the shooting responsible, because I spent a number of years taking shit and crap from people, and I almost commited sucide because of it. So for those of you who are all mad at the shooters, and say they need to take responsiblity, well, consequences go both ways. What if the bullies at Columbine had been nice to those boys? Do you think they still would have commited mass murder? -
Do you know what this contry really needs to become great again? What we need is another Hitler. I say this some what in jest, but there is some truth here. The USA has always been a nation about competition. From the Revolutionary War to about the end of the Spanish American War, it wsa about survival. Between that period until the Great Depression, it was a very turbulant time, and people really weren't sure as to where they wanted to go. The politics flip flopped so fast it was increadible. During the Great Depression and WW2 it was again about survival. From the end of WW2 until recent is was against the Soviet Union. Now, again, we have no competition. (Note an appoarching joke) SO IF YOU WANT AMERICA TO BE GREAT AGAIN, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS BECOME A DICTATOR AND KILL A LOT OF PEOPLE, AND TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD. That was a joke. This is not. We are at our best when we have a defined enemy. Well, instead of being on the defensive for survival, lets go on the offensive. We need to go attack something. What we can attack is a frontier, and settle it. And th most obvious frontier is space. I encourage everyone to read Encountering Space by Bob Zubrin. He says it so much better than me. In fact, if No one minds, I think I will quote him (and if you do mind, well, life is tough all arond) "Humanity does not need war, death, disease, decay, superstition, national or racial cults, archaic belief structures or despotisms, or any number of other residues of our primitive past agianst which many noble pepole have struggled through the ages. But Humaity does need a challenge. A Humanity without challenge would be a humanity without change, without innovation, which fundamentally means a humanity without meaningful freedom. A humanity without challenge would be humanity without humanity." - Thank you Bob. My point ultimately, if you haven't yet got it? Very simple. If the USA takes up a challenge, we will be able to take action against these issues, and we probably won't even realize, and they won't be problems.
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Though I agree that teasing is a horrible thing, and that kids can be cruel, I cannot agree that the victims of Columbine deserved their fate in any way. The punishment does not fit the crime- teasing someone is not nearly as bad as shooting them. I took some low blows in school as well, but I would never even contemplate what Harris and Klebold did. If they couldn't stand it, they should have gone to their parents and asked to change schools.
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Maybe I was being somewhat mean, and in truth many of them probably didn't deserve it, however,when the amount of teasing, when it makes your life a living hell, the only logical thing to do is lash out. Changing schools is perseved as runing away, and then you only feel lower about yourself. And that might not have been an option to be able to change schools. And another reason that wasn't an option was due to the fact that they didn't have (at least it seems to me) a very good relationship with their parents. Ultimatly, my point is that the boys are not to blame.
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What these people cannot and are afraid to concede is the fact that both civilization and culture change. The idea of family--as we know is a new one, it was a Victorian invention, and one established to keep women in the home (for that matter.) Before that, children were not treated as children--they went out into the workplace; families were not the units that these religious and conservative groups expect them to be.
Moralities change, cultures change and it is idiocy to think that we are meant to keep things the same. Perhaps the family as these minority groups view it has come to the end of its viability, perhaps its definition needs to be restructured. I doubt a group like this one would come this type of conclusion--however.
We are definitely in a period of restructuring, with the internet, with increasing population and lessening possibilities of acheiving the "American dream." I'm sorry to all those who believe that just because something worked when they were children that it is just and should be imposed on others, but it just ain't true. What about all the evils that come out of the family unit. Do we ignore those so that a small group can feel better about their world view?
Of course we do, and we legislate a culture and morality that no longer fits into the world as it is becoming. Listen to the rhetoric of every politician, they will tell you how your morality is under fire, how your culture, safety and familiy must be preserved in the face of some liberal menace--well perhaps that menace is time, change or evolution--of course, we all know what they think of evolution;) -
I noticed you said that violence in ANY form is wrong....if so, what are your thoughts on war? The notion that there's such a thing as a war hero? A good war? A necessary war? Pacifism? It's ironic that in this day and age the person who pushed the most for living out Jesus' sermon on the mount was not a christian speaker, but Gandhi...most Christians I know say the sermon sounds great but when Jesus said if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek, he didn't really mean it. Yes, if it's a light slap. But if it's hard....or if twice...beat the fuck out of the guy. Gandhi believed if you lay down your defenses and are still repeatedly beaten (mentally, physically, figuratively, whatever)it is the violent attacker who will look like the idiot asshole....it's sad that most people believe the opposite.
p.s. to whoever says, "yeah, well look where non-violence got Gandhi...dead!" I say, "you're part of the reason he's dead." -
Well, obviously I can't speak for the person you asked specifically form, however, you did make it a general request, so here are my thoughts. Until very recently, I was an admited pacificst. And
I think much conflict can be prevented by people in general taking a more active role in the world. I believe this on both a personal level (ie it is everybodies job to help each other) and on a national level (ie, US needs to have a much more active foreign policy). That said, I was recently forced to re-evalute my position. The first was a quote I heard (I think it is from Mao Zedoung), which was "All power ultimately flows from the barrel of a gun" This, plus our war in Kosovo has forced me to become much more of a pragmatist. The act of non-volents and turning the other cheek requires a higher power, either physically (as in the case of India adn Gandhi vs Britian, the higher power was the rest of the civiliazed world), or spirituality (ie God for Jesus and his disciples). However, problems arise through 1. There is no higher power (what happened in Germany prior to the start of WW2), or 2. The higher power must take a violent role in stoping it (ie what did happen in WW2 ) And the honest truth is that this has made me something of a hypicrite, which is one of the things I dispise most. This is because I honestly do not think I could bring myself to kill someone. So I do believe much violence can be prevented, but I do not think we are anywhere close to being a non-voilent society. And the Unfortant truth is, if I may quote the TV show babylon 5, "People like seeing big things blow up" or in a humans case, get beat up and hurt really bad. Why do you think the popularity of wrestling has sored? -
Sep 27, 1999 4:33:47 PM CDT
well, i have issues with the christians in kansas, but what i RE
by the devil
i got a student of the month award for strangling a kid who came to school in a trenchcoat after the colombine incident.
it was really *fun* being in high school after that whole mess. all of us were treated like potential criminals. glad i am out. -
Sad but true to think of it as winning and loosing. Eventually everything will be censored (Demolition man style fruit-opia) and there will be no violence to be seen in entertainment. No one will own a gun and swearing will be out of the question. Then someone will snap, go nuts with a board with a nail in it. What then?? Who to blame?? I welcome anyone to e-mail me and discuss this further if you are interested. Smart discussion only. Flames will not be tolerated (punishable by personal violence.)
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You've trusted committees to provide you with entertainment for years now. A committee writes the script, a committee shoots the movie, a committee screens it for another committee to see what the committee would really like for the movie to be about, then the committee tells another committee what changes should be made before handing it over to the marketing committee to shove down the throats of a gullible public. What's one more committee to tell us what to think?
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