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Massawyrm chimes in on the most divisive movie of the season ALICE IN WONDERLAND
Hola all. Massawyrm here.
The key to understanding ALICE’S ADVENTURES IN WONDERLAND in any of its forms is to know that Charles Dodgson, the man the world knows better as Lewis Carroll, was a mathematician by trade. He wasn’t a writer. That was a side gig that ended up making him very rich. His passion in life was mathematics but his obsession was with logic puzzles. He loved them. Most importantly he loved playing with how easily broken logic puzzles could become. Logic is built upon math and is thus an inflexible system capable of turning out wrong answers if given faulty information. Give me a piece of paper and a pencil and I can prove beyond a shadow of logical doubt that God exists. Give me another piece of paper and I will work that proof another way and prove that he can’t (many of you might know of this proof as the long running internet joke The Flying Spaghetti Monster.) The point is, if you understand the math of it you can prove or disprove anything. And Charles Dodgson loved that. He so loved it that he created a series of nonsensical logic puzzles that they still teach today in college level logic courses.
ALICE’S ADVENTURES IN WONDERLAND and THROUGH THE LOOKING-GLASS, AND WHAT ALICE SAW THERE - more commonly known blended together as ALICE IN WONDERLAND - are exercises in being wholly illogical whilst maintaining a rigid adherence to logic. It is a commentary on society, its norms and the people who slavishly and rigidly conform to it. More importantly, it is a diversion for children, playing with the types of word games, riddles and logical inconsistencies that would amuse the children he was writing it for. As it turns out, his wonderfully realized fantastical world coupled with his incredible wordplay and logical gymnastics would prove to create legions of adult fans as well.
And therein lays the first of two major problems with Tim Burton’s ALICE IN WONDERLAND. This film is that it is neither an adaptation of ALICE’S ADVENTURES IN WONDERLAND nor its sequel THROUGH THE LOOKING-GLASS. It is part 3. The sequel to those first two books as if they had occurred as a single experience. And to many, that is as offensive as making a sequel to HAMLET, THE LORD OF THE RINGS or CATCHER IN THE RYE. In fact, if this film shares a pedigree with any other film, it is Steven Spielberg’s misfire HOOK, the sequel to the classic PETER PAN. And while it doesn’t share the sentimental goofiness of HOOK, it does share an awful lot of similar elements – chiefly a hero who doesn’t remember their previous adventures being cast back into a world they have to re-learn in order to fulfill their destiny.
The second problem is that this film was not written by anyone with Carroll’s mindset. Absent is all of the twisted logic, all of the mind-bending puzzles, all of the erratic, disjointed behavior of the inhabitants of Wonderland (here referred to as Underland). In its place is a strict obedience to the behavior laid out in Carroll’s works, eschewing the madness and strange logic and instead simply obeying rules that Burton dare not break, lest he lose the audience that he has asked so much of to begin with. This actually creates a world that FEELS less like Wonderland and more like the Land of Oz. This could just have easily been Dorothy returning to Oz as a young woman and having to do battle against a witch and her beasts rather than Alice returning to Wonderland to bring down an evil queen. I can’t help but think that Tim Burton desperately wanted to make an Oz film, but could only get the rights to ALICE.
To be honest, I think I would have much rather seen American McGee’s ALICE, if only because I like the idea of Wonderland being a reflection of Alice’s psyche and seeing what was already a somewhat disturbing and frightening landscape being transformed into something truly gruesome and fractured. But that’s not what this is. This is the Chronicles of Narnia in the Land of Oz peppered with the window dressing of Wonderland.
So why did I like it? Because despite its intellectual failings, it was still a gloriously surreal trek through a beloved childhood paradise. As a film it is beautifully realized, excellently paced and very well told. Alice is endearing, albeit a tad stereotypical in the way that she comes across as Elizabeth Bennet’s gaunt, withdrawn younger sister – but she’s still very likable, and Mia Wasikowska does a great job carrying on as if she isn’t at almost all times surrounded by CG. She seems completely immersed and thusly so do we.
As a fantasy story it is pretty by the numbers, but hits all the right notes. Burton’s clear love of the canon allows us to spend a little more time with a number of classic characters, that he clearly wants to be more likable than antagonistic – the latter being how many of them come across in the original work. This all comes together in a very enjoyable, very palatable Alice story that has the right mix of humor and adventure to keep you enjoying it throughout. Only one moment falls truly flat – a dance sequence that had some griping for quite some time after the film and proved for many to be either the tipping point or something they simply chose to pretend didn’t exist when gauging their experience as a whole.
So I find myself torn; understanding both sides of what will easily be a very divisive film. Intellectually it is a failure, completely failing to grasp hold of the material it is borrowing substantially from. Going into this with Carroll in your head can only lead to disappointment – and that is not necessarily the fault of those viewers. But as an experience, this is a lot of fun and it is hard to deny the base, fundamental attraction to the material. It is a visual theme park ride, taking you through a new tour of a fantasy land you’ve grown up with in your own imagination. And on that level I really liked it. So it comes down to the classic hamburger/junk-food cinema argument. I know it is not a steak - despite the use of the word sirloin on the menu - but I found it delicious and filling anyway. It’s not flawed enough to be called a guilty pleasure – it really is a well made – but it is also not gourmet.
The kids are gonna love it. Families will love it. And it will make truckloads of money. But the critics who will argue that it isn’t Alice aren’t wrong. It’s not. But it is close enough to find likable. I could have done without that Dance though.
Until next time friends, smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em.
Massawyrm
Got something for the Wyrm? Mail it here.
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on the trailer before Avatar it looked very intense and that fake vertigo feeling. I love that shit.
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Lump of shit once again........
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Bonham Carter. I am officially sick of her in anything Burton puts her in. It's always the same thing: Lets make my girlfriend(wife?) look really weird and beat it to death.
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Divisive? where does Harry get these high school writers?
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Must we?
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But I'm there, dude. I'll check my academia at the door and enjoy the ride.
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The only Burton movie I could do without is Planet of the Apes.
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Mar 04, 2010 2:04:22 PM CST
Would Burton please start fucking Cate Blanchett or Vera Farming
by kentucky colonel
I'm getting really turned off by Helena B. Carter showing up every fucking time. Gimme more Vera anytime!
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just thought i'd throw that out there.
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I fucking hate you. You are such a douchebag and your wikipedia info on Lewis Carroll impresses NO ONE. You knew precisely shit about him before this article. JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP
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Is the Tron Legacy trailer attached?
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Saw this Tuesday night at the Director's Guild of America Theater.
The narrative is awful.
The visuals are amazing.
The 3-D was mediocre. -
sigh...............has there ever been a director more of a disappointment then Burton? I mean he is just going thought the motions now. Whats next Tim Burton's the Hunchback of Notre-Dame or Sleeping Beauty. (Oh wait he is doing that next)
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And you should too. http://www.logicomix.com/en/
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Like a glossy, dark, bad CGI SYFI movie of the week.
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Mar 04, 2010 2:18:19 PM CST
Viewing this as a direct follow up to Carroll's books is bound t
by nickytea
It isn't. Never was meant to be.
It plays just as much on the evolution of the original stories' cultural impact as it does on the source material. It can exist as both follow up and adaptation.
The biggest victory? Alice actually has a narrative. Who'd have thought? God bless Linda Wolverton, who came up with this before Burton was involved. She's done something tremendous. -
Massa, fucking awesome review.That intro bout Lewis Carol was news to me. WHY AREN'T YOU RUNNING SHIT???
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The real Alice's family distanced themselves from him as much as poss'. Just saying. That is all.
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Mar 04, 2010 2:21:27 PM CST
if you understand the math of it you can prove or disprove anyth
by greenleaf1
As an engineering major with a focus in mathematics, I'd really appreciate it if film critics didn't try to talk about math. They usually just end up embarrassing themselves, such as with the statement in my subject line.
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...But now, not so much... TEAM CAPONE!
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CHEWIE, LOCK IN ZE AUXILLIARY POWER!
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well, the passion that Massa mentioned, was the passion that Dodgson had for Alice. Haven't you ever seen Dreamchild?
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And if you think math can prove two contrary things, either your maths is faulty, or you've misunderstood the word proof.
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Edward Scissorhands was good. Ed Wood was good. Big Fish was oookay. Nightmare Before Christmas was good. But then he made Charlie, and Sweeny, and now its just an assembly line.
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that's what this movie should have been called...also, CG midgets. stupid crap. Burton is a hack.
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When i first heard that Burton was doing a return to Wonderland story with an older Alice, that's what I thought we'd be getting. Sadly not though.Wasn't there an AMcG's version greenlit at one point? Sarah Michelle Geller, I believe. Whatever happened to that and can we have it, please?
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4D is the Future of Cinema.
The upcoming 4D re-boot of "Back To The Future" allows you to sit behind your own head in the theatre, as you watched the original "Back To The Future" in 1985. -
From the sound of this, it is all visuals no substance - like Avatar. And we'll all happily pay $15 and this piece of crap will merrily pass the $1bn mark within a month. FUCK 3d.
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...that you're getting a shit review. This is the guy that based a movie review on the politics of animated penguins. What did you expect?
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Im sure everything since has been good but he seems to pick stories that dont interest me at all so i dont watch them.
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And yet another movie I won't go see, or bother with on DVD. Movies these days have absolutely nothing to say about anything. Remakes of remakes of remakes.
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...who do you think you are, Mr. Beaks? Ebert (unintentionally?) nailed Burton's entire schtick in his "Alice" review: "Burton shows us Wonderland as a perturbing place where the inhabitants exist for little apparent reason other than to be peculiar and obnoxious."
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In the original the characters acted the same way. I have found memories of Alice in Wonderland for other reasons, but most of the characters are just outright assholes who have no time for Alice, getting high, trying to kill her or just fucking around with her. If Burton movie is like that then he nailed it. Hope Roger gets better and we get some artificial jaws out for him.
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Mar 04, 2010 2:58:42 PM CST
The most divisive film of the late winter early spring season?
by azultool
Exactly what season are you referring to?
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Where's that brain-dead Solomon Kane reviewer from yesterday?
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Mar 04, 2010 2:59:48 PM CST
regardless of negative attention, this will make $90 million
by idrinkyourmilkshake
opening weekend.Guaranteed
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I've had enough of Tim Burton...
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Anytime someone mentions Alice in Wonderland, another nerd trots this POS out. Seriously, it's been YEARS...let's let it die shall we? It's not gonna happen, because everyone sees it for what it was; Image Comics era crap. Next thing you know you guys will be clamoring for Zanoscope Grimm Faerie Tales comic adaptations to film. Oh wait...it's already happened...
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Aside from ED WOOD, which was a simple enough story, he has yet to make a film beyond something a kid could manage with finger paint and a 2-Liter bottle of Jolt cola.
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Seen all his tricks. Boring now.
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Was by far my favorite tim burton film. I like his style when he does a straight forward film. When he does fantasy with his style, it just winds up being too much for me...
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At least the dude has balls to say what he really thinks instead of falling inline behind the fanboy asshats. I don't always agree with everything he writes or says, but the dude is genuine and knows his shit.
So many critics lose touch of what the general audience thinks because they're caught up in their own intellectualized bullshit. You may shit on a movie like Avatar or Transformers 2, but back in the day, your dad's kid self would be shitting his pants if he saw a movie like that. Massawyrm is just trying to see it from multiple points of view.
If you don't like his reviews, DON'T READ THEM. Go back to reading some shithead crap all over everything so he can find one diamond in his ass. -
You're consistently the one writer I've always agreed with here.
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Was Sheila Kelly's dating video
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Yeah,I'm sorry haters-Massawyrm is bare-none, the best film reviewer here.He's the last vestige of fucking hope on this site! He writes GREAT reviews that really make sense(unlike alot of the buffoon reviwers on this site).He's a king among fools.
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But I ain't happy about it. I'm just so over the Depp/Burton thing. It's the same shit time and again, under a different title.
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depp and burton being weirdos
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Mar 04, 2010 3:29:56 PM CST
So, this is just Charlie and Chocolate factory all over again
by toadkillerdog
All flash, no substance.
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I wonder, Massa, do you feel the animated Alice "failed" in the same way, or do you think that one actually had the twisted logic and "mind-bending puzzles" of the original text?
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Seriously, CAPONE? This is the fucking retard who lauded PARANORMAL ACTIVITY left and right, a "genuine creepfest" (not his words but that was the idea), and then when people bitched at him about how fucking AWFUL it was he told them, quote, they "FELL FOR THE HYPE." No you piece of shit, I didn't fall for HYPE, I read YOUR FUCKING REVIEW and now it's MY fault you fawned over the worst movie of 2009???? The fact he is even allowed to continue to write reviews is an insult to everyone who reads AICN, the man is a complete fucking idiot.
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"Logic is built upon math and is thus an inflexible system capable of turning out wrong answers if given faulty information." That is a silly statement.
"The point is, if you understand the math of it you can prove or disprove anything." That is just not true. Just because it looks like a proof doesn't make it a proof. -
Mar 04, 2010 3:35:44 PM CST
I dont think "the key to understanding Caroll is math", Massa
by d.vader
I think the KEY to understanding Carroll is that he thought the rigid system of teaching children in English schools- have them memorize silly rhymes and songs- was a bad way to teach children, so he turned all of those poems and songs and rhymes on their heads and had them turn out to mean NONSENSE instead. I don't think ANY of that has anything to do with math one bit.
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Just what "rules" should Burton have broken? What "rules" did Carroll set out that Burton is following but refusing to break, which you seem to imply would be in the true spirit of Carroll? Its a tad bit confusing there, Massa. Doesn't shrinking still constitute as being a bit of "madness" and "strange logic"? I just don't quite get what you're going for here.
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"And prove beyond a shadow of logical doubt that its true!" No. No, I don't think you can. That's the kind of nonsense that belongs in Wonderland.
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"... where the inhabitants exist for little apparent reason other than to be peculiar and obnoxious."" That's actually how they exist in the original text, only much of the time their existence is parodying a specific english-school teaching method or rhyme or story or etc.
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"You are fart factory, Slug-slimed, sack-of-rat-guts-in-cat-vomit, cheesy, scab-picked, pimple-squeezing finger bandage. A week old maggot burger with everything on it and flies on the side!"
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"... so he turned all of those poems and songs and rhymes on their heads and had them turn out to mean NONSENSE instead." But since we're discussing the man, it works. The spirit of Carroll is within me!
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I'm not sure it ever got the greenlight per se, but it was being developed by Wes Craven right as the video game was coming out. Natalie Portman was said to star as Alice. Then....nothing. That really sucked because I think that could have been immensely cool.
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I'll agree with those that say Massawyrm is consistently the best reviewer on this site. But I don't think this particular review ranks as 'his finest hour'.
Massa get's bogged down with his wikipedia-styled summation of Carroll and rather silly maths boast of being able to simultaneously prove/disprove the existence of god. He then finishes up talking about steak, and saying that this movie isn't a gourmet meal.
Reading between the lines it screams out the simple phrase '3 stars out of 5'. Couldn't you have just written that dude? -
One of the only filmmakers that I hate as much as I love. I love his style, visually he is one of the best. As a story teller I think he is mediocre at best. I look forward to seeing Alice, you can be sure I will be under the influence of herb.
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because don't you have to start the equation that there's a 50/50 chance that god does exist? The logic is flawed from the start.
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Tim Burton. We get it dude, you like to be gothic and creepy! Must you insist on destroying every last remnant of my youth. Make more stuff like Big Fish you pretentious fuck!
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It wasn't filmed in 3D, but converted after the fact. I wasn't expecting Avatar-style 3D
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You didn't even mention Depp, which is the main reason many people want to see it. Who gives a shit about the Alice mythology?
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For serious.
And Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was horrible. He managed to get every character completely wrong. Grandpa Joe sucked. The original Grandpa Joe was the fuckin' man, the new one had no personality. Charlie was a little bitch. I know, the original Charlie was a little bitch too, but I prefer his "so innocent you want to punch him in the face" to the new kid...the new kid was creepy. Every character is portrayed as a much creepier version of the original. Johnny Depp acts like Michael Jackson, completely ruining Willy Wonka. Gene Wilder was funny in a crazy way, not crazy in a funny way. And the Oompa Loompas...really? You're going to use ONE GUY FOR ALL THE FUCKING OOMPA LOOMPAS? That was the biggest bullshit of the entire movie. You know how many midgets were most likely pumped for the remakes of Wizard of Oz, and Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, because they could be Oompa Loompas and Munchkins? The Wizard of Oz remake that'll likely be made (not that I've heard anything about such a thing) better not have all the munchkins as one god damn person -
yeah, theyLOOK great, and weird, and different, blah blah. But then what? Should I wait another two years to see what Lady Gaga outfit Johnny Depp is wearing next. Actually, to be fair, Lady Gaga usually looks like Johnny Depp in any Tim Burton movie just threw up.
At any rate, his movies have little story. While I liked Pee Wee's Big adventure, and really liked Beetlejuice, my tastes stop there. I was 18 when "Batmania" hit in 1989 and I fell into the hype. Once the hype wore off and I was able to look objectively, I realized "Batman" is a really terrible film. I walked out of "Batman Returns." There was was too much bullshit in it (don't get me started on my rant about that movie). I revisited it later, and have seen it a few times but it still is slightly above Spidey 3 in my eyes. I tolerated Edward Scissorhands but I'm not a chick flick lover. Sigh... I guess after this whole diatribe the moral of my story is I don't like Burton movies and don't plan on seeing this. -
That's the problem I have with Burton. His films look great, though all of a type (which is fine). For me, though, there is always a lack of story and character and, more importantly, direction, in his films. I find the pacing to be almost dreary. That's not to say that slow pacing is bad - I'm a huge fan of David Lynch who manages to balance his visual aesthetic with the demands of the story. The film of Burton's I like the most is Ed Wood because it is about the character, not about the art direction. For all the glorious on screen look, I feel let down by a lack of depth. The most obvious portrayal of this was in Selick's Coraline which was a fantastic story with strong characters and a great story arc that was enhanced by the visuals rather than replaced by them. As good as it looks, I'd rather look at a piece of art by Mark Ryden or Ray Caesar for my sense of the uncanny, rather than Burton's misinterpretation of something that should be a joyously unsettling account of childhood. That said, I haven't seen it yet. I may be surprised.
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Only great movie he made was Edward Scissorhands. Go away you emo gothic turd. You are such a douche. Im glad you didnt get to do Superman. If you want to gain any respect, stop doing remakes and depending on your visuals to bail you out. In addition, why dont you evolve your visuals from the Gothic style. have you ever thought about that? Focus on being a great storyteller too! You killed Planet of the APES my one true sci-fi love....ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I loved Coraline - I might have come across as critical which was the oppsite of what I meant -and I think it did what Burton aims at, without Burton. I do have a fondness for Beetlejuice, however, but they be Winona...
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Was a near masterpiece. Fuck the haters on that one. Aside from that, yes burton is in a rut right now.
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And disappointing.
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D Vader what great movie has he made since Edward Scissorhands? And why does he keep making remakes?! WTF?! Why hasnt his visuals evolved from that gothic brooding look? i can name a so many of his films that utilize this same look. Come on movie lovers, its time to take a stand and not stand for this mediocre re-hased shit, yet I doubt the mindless zomboes who make this a blockbuster. uhhhhhhhhhhh
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Its just hard to take someone (who seems more upset that Planet of the Apes was ruined more than anything else) who calls a director a "douche" (as if he's reading this talkback right now) seriously. That's all =). And I greatly enjoy Ed Wood, Sleepy Hollow, and Sweeney Todd. Big Fish is pretty good too.
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Conversion was performed on scenes OUTSIDE of wonderland. Same technology as what peter Jackson wants to use on lord of the rings.
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Tim Burton movie since 1989. He had the courage to step outside of his box on that one, and I thought it was great. Everything else was shit tho
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But planned it out as a 3D movie. Unlike post-3D-conversions like Clash of the Titans and Robin Hood.
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I could list many: Tim Burton, Roland Emmerich, McG...Come on man, Tim Burton is still stuck in his emo/gothic wonderland (no pun intended).
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and seems to have been in cruise control for years.
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I just don't usually do it very directly like "You are such a douche", as if the man himself wrote the article.
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The only Alice film that could ever shit-me-up was Jan Svenkmajer's. However, this looks fun. Regardless of whether it sticks the the Alice in Wonderland stories (I never read them anyway) I do enjoy Tim Burton's films. Who cares if they're all gothic? It's his thing. Like Steven Spielberg doing big budget epic crap all the time. You either love it or you hate it.
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I love how everyone bitching about Burton and then go on to claim what movie of his is the best only prove what a fucking film maker he is. You dumb cunts mention different movies that are his supposed best in your opinions. Some say they love Big Fish, some say it sucks. You are all naming different movies of his that are the best only solidifying his catalog.
Reminds me of the people talking shit about Chinese Democracy and then say what song they think is best. They always mention a different song only proving what a great album it it. Yea yea go ahead say it sucks. Chinese Democracy Sucks, Avatar sucks, Burton sucks blah blah blah. You dumb cunts are funny. -
Mar 04, 2010 5:50:30 PM CST
"They always mention a different song only proving what a great
by spacezilla
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And is the bad story the fault of the book it's based on? You left that murky. Plus, they already did a sequel to Oz. It was called Return to Oz and was dark and crazy, just as you described.
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Let it go man.
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Alice was always messed up and creepy anyway.
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Awesome read that is spoiler free. Thanks. Just recalling the plot is not a review.
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sounds painfully bad, about the same level as the barely watchable musical sequences from Charlie and Chocolate Factory. Burton really can't tell when he's directing crap anymore can he?
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...Would I still enjoy the movie? Once again, you AICN reviewers prove that you have no idea how to be objective. Shelf the goddamn book when you view a film.
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That's the nature of an adaptation, taking an original story and putting a 'spin' on it. Completely ignoring the original, and what the adaptation did with it, isn't 'objective', it's blind.
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1. Good review Massa. Some folks complain, but at least he's not licking the studio's ass.
2. If Burton wasn't making movies in his signature 'style" how bland would our world be. Michael Bay, Joel Schumacher anyone?
3. Ed Wood
4. Edward Scissorhands
5. Nightmare before Christmas
6. Hang your heads in disgust, for when we do get movies true to the source material, either the public doesn't get it or doesn't care. (See Watchmen, 300, Sin City) -
I'm saying you shouldn't HAVE to read the source material to enjoy any movie. Just look at LOTR.
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And you're right, you shouldn't have to read a book to enjoy the film adaptation. However, the film shouldn't completely rewrite the book either (and if it does it should be noted), which is what I misconstrued your original point as.
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Both stories were horrible. All but one (the Disney animated classic) of the films are horrible.
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Bland, uninspired, boring... just a cash-grab, really. And the 3D looks murky for the most part. A few moments are as good as I hoped the whole thing would be, but 90% of it is totally forgettable.
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You CANT say well it has this realy bad probs and they suks cussssssss and then say BUT IST A GREAT MOVIE its eather bad or good and its sad you guys dont have the balls toy say it just cus ITS OOOO THE GRAET Mr BUTRON and oooo with so many shity moveies in the past the same prob UUUU ITS SUKS CUS BLA BLA BLA but ist from Mr WHAT EVER and he makes allot of money so you have to go see it.
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The story is great for interpretation, the logic, the mathematics, the drugs one would need to take to fucking write something like that in the first place etc. but as pure entertainment it CANNOT be adapted. So, it needs to be shaken up like what Burton has done. His movies are hit and miss, yeah, but I like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory more every time I see it and love Sweeney Todd.
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Inside and out so he makes all of his movies to reflect that. Thank God he never got his grimy hands on Superman....Gives me the dousche chills just thinking about it.
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He does nail some hotties. You gotta admit it.
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I was looking to see if you did a review of Cop Out and came across your SR review. Usually you and I see eye to eye on the best way to run a mariane corp unit but I was shocked to find that you loved SR so much. You still stand by that review or has hindsight given you a new perspective?
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This is a well-written, carefully thought out review for a movie that I didn't like much AT ALL. TEDIOUS is my one word review.
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Mar 04, 2010 7:30:07 PM CST
Massa, you wrote "whilst" in your review, and I like that.
by creasybear
As I read the review, my imagined voice for you instantly changed to Cockney, then back to American for the rest of the review. You should throw other Briticisms that never really crossed the Atlantic into your reviews randomly. Write "innit?" next time after a rhetorical question. All kidding aside, this movie looks too weird. Not a good weird, like Fifth Element, but more like the old Tom Petty "Don't Come Around Here No More" video weird.
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I think that it may just prove how diverse and varied peoples tastes are- but you make a good point. I did enjoy Chinese democracy tho...
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how is divisive being used incorrectly here? the movie is gong to cause a lot of disagreement, the divisiveness. where's the problem?
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Does everyone on here want to jerk off to 3D? I could give a fuck about 3D. I would rather have a good movie.
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If memory serves, Elizabeth Bennett DOES have a gaunt, withdrawn younger sister in Pride and Prejudice...Mary. She also has two OUTGOING younger sisters (Kitty and Lydia)and a withdrawn OLDER sister (Jane). I love me some Jane Austen.
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If you force two people to eat a bucket of shit and one person's favourite nugget was the one with peanut chunks while another person's favourite nugget was the one with bits of corn in it, that doesn't make Chinese Democracy a good album.
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But touche, friend. Touche.
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Massawyrm: you inverted the relationship. Mathematics depends on logic. I agree with you that Dodgson's career as an Don in Mathematics is key to understanding the Alice books and the tight logical constructions built on absurdities. That and the cleverness of language is what made those stories survive their Victorian origins. As to Mr. D.Vader, 2 + 2 = 5 if we define (+) as a function of two values in the set of N, where f(x,y) = successor(x * y) and where successor is the function that maps a Natural number to the next element in N. f(2,2) = successor(2 *2) = 5. That demonstrates Carroll's (Dodgson's) point, change the axioms and change the truth. Change the meaning of (+) and change the result. Dodgson's paradoxes and other results of the day suggested mathematic truth was relative and that caused a large crisis in Mathematics in the 19th Century. While mathematics is still proven via logic, theorems are expressed more carefully as having validity only over a set of values and specific set of axioms.
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Our common love for all things Zooey.
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Anybody tell you otherwise, they lyin'.
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A great sequel to the originals, check it out.I will see this knowing better what to expect. Thanks.
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We can't let Tim Burton get any ideas about doing the Wizard of Oz. I really want another good Oz movie someday, and it seems right up Tim's alley, but if I ever see Johnny Depp dressed up as the Scarecrow I'm gonna fucking lose it. I hold Oz a bit more dear to my heart than Wonderland, for sure.
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and nothing more. It reveals things as clearly as it does because of this. The less need to explain more the better.
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Here's my imitation of every single goddam Danny Elfman film score ever: BUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUPBUP ... Oh Jesus, I hate his music. HATE. MAKE IT STOP.
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I would have said a plant wrote this: "It is a visual theme park ride, taking you through a new tour of a fantasy land you’ve grown up with in your own imagination." That's junk marketing writing and it is indicative of the whole lameness of the review. The Worm has done much better and I am confident will do so again. Not this time though.
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I'm sick to death of this, 'taken on it's own level, merely as an entertainment, it's kind of fun' crap. MAKE A GOOD MOVIE. NOT AN AMUSEMENT PARK RIDE IN 3D.
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He strikes me as the kind of guy that wouldn't - like his quote about not reading comic books.
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Tim Burton can't cast for his life. You need strong likable characters. Charlie & the Chocolate Factory for example. Freddie Highmore was a horrible choice. That actor put me to sleep. I didn't care for his character. He just wasn't memorable. Yeah some of you will say, but it's Burton. It supposed to have a depressing feel to it. Yes it's true that Tim Burton films have a depressing or are weird looking, but there's usually something colorful to play against that, like Pee Wee. In Edward Scissor Hands the colorful people and suburban town. In A Nightmare Before Christmas. It was Halloween sprinkled with Christmas. Lately though, Burton's movies are just gloomy, without anything bright or cheerful to play against that gloom. He's done it again with Alice with Wonderland. Mia Wasikowska is a depressing Alice. You never really see her smile. She seems bored through out the entire movie. She never comes alive. She has little makeup and is not very attractive as well. I would have cast Hayden Panettiere. She's a cutie and her natural beauty and small stature, would have made a nice contrast to the gloomy look of the film.
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I agree with you in a lot of things, and yes I still ejoyed it...
The jabberwocky was a disappointment :(
So fucking love the frogs scene -
And he did it very academically. Kudos to you, Sir NeighborNotInTheBiz!
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That's right you! You just posted here! You little punk!
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I bet there's a few (or more) virgins here, too.To stay on topic, Burton's only decent movie in the last two decades was Big Fish. Yet we all believe his next movie will be awesome. Why would his Charlie and the Chocolate Factory be any less atrocious than his Planet of the Apes? It's not logical, but maybe Massa could prove that it is logical if he uses the right truth tables and a sweet, new protractor.
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I bet there's a few (or more) virgins here, too.To stay on topic, Burton's only decent movie in the last two decades was Big Fish. Yet we all believe his next movie will be awesome. Why would his Charlie and the Chocolate Factory be any less atrocious than his Planet of the Apes? It's not logical, but maybe Massa could prove that it is logical if he uses the right truth tables and a sweet, new protractor.
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The 3D wasn't that memorable, you can tell that it was converted. The story started off ok, then after she left the Eat Me/Drink Me room it spiraled out of control. I swear 2-3 of the action scenes felt like I was watching an poor attempt to do Avatar meets Alice with about 25% of Avatar's 3D effect.
The actress who played Alice was a good choice, she was just directed horribly. Anne Hathaway's character annoyed me after about 3 minutes (she redeems herself in the last few scenes though), and Helena B. Carter was a well played maniacal Queen of Hearts. If only HBC and Alan Rickman would have spoken to the other actors, this film might have been beautifully intriguing AND wonderfully acted. Instead this was just a pretty movie that could have been played with no sound and would have been just as enjoyable as it was WITH sound. -
And by dark, I mean low light. For that reason alone, I dilike TB. Hell it even affected TV shows such as CSI. Any real-life CSIer knows you turn on some freakin lights.
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I dislike TB.
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in any of its forms is to know that Harry Knowles, the man the world knows better as Jabba, was a fat fucker by trade. He wasn’t a writer. That was a side gig that ended up making him very rich."
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Or am I thinking that because Depp was in it? Seriously, he's worse than Speilburg and Dick Dreyfus, Clooney and Soderburgh. Should we be reading more into your fascination, Johnny?
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Just surprised he actually worked it out in my post is all!
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"this was just a pretty movie that could have been played with no sound and would have been just as enjoyable as it was WITH sound." Some say the best movies work that way.
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that film makers nowadays dont use suspense or any real dramatic tools like character building,emotional investment in the future of such characters.Everything seems to be reliant on CG.and box office numbers.So fuck it.
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Loved it when i saw it. loved it on video. loved the DVD release. Love the score (john williams last truely detailed complex music) i never understood the hate.
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I think its John Williams' most magical score, and one of my favorites. ALWAYS makes me feel like a kid. "The Face of Pan" is just EPIC.
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Not sure why Dodgson gets all of the attention. Probably because of Tenniel.
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than mad genius. And you can see that in his Batman movies as it could have been genius but ended up being more black and white glossy crap than anything.
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hahaha! i take my hat off or head off to you, that was funny
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Mar 05, 2010 4:33:24 AM CST
The production design ont his looks like utter garbage
by industrykiller!
I hear the word "weird" get thrown around a lot when it come to Tim Burton, but he hasn't been weird since Mars Attacks. His production designs are predictable (and I don't mean in a Burton way,I mean in a Brett Ratner way) and couldn't be more down the middle and family friendly. The guys visuals fail utterly film after film after film.
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... and the movie wasn't as bad as I expected.
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Nonstop, panty-twisted sniping at Burton, his wife HBC, Massawyrm and (in my favorite fuckwit remark so far) American McGee's ALICE.
Must be that time of the month for you ladies... -
- no, the tron logacy trailer was not in front of it, not in Sweden anyways. Maybe in the US.
- as Sir Neighbor said, it's the other way around. Logic can never be dependent on mathematics. And I would love for you to put pencil to paper and prove that God doesn't exist. In fact, I challenge thee and call you a coward if you do not!
Now where's your honour! :-) -
and no one else, if that didn't come across...
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I NEED AN EDIT BUTTON!
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So it's a failure on par with "Hook" but it'S also an awesome movie, Massa? What a truly useless review!
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attitude. I use to enjoy reading his reviews, but in the last 6 months or so he has become kind of a jerk. He prefaces all his reviews with "don't question or argue with me unless you understand and know everything I do". I remember his Invictus review, where he stated unless you saw all of these movies you were not allowed to voice you opinion on Eastwood's directing capabilities.
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"Let me give you the key to understanding this" ... phooey. No thanks
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The whole idea behind the creator of the FSM was to show why the teaching of Creation in schools is a bad idea. The creator of the FSM used it to suggest that since he "believed" in the FSM, then therefore he had a "right" in the USA that his "religion" should be taught in schools, since it is just as valid and legitimate as Christianity. After all, he argued, there is just as much proof for the existence of the FSM as there is for Jesus returning from the dead. Same with Buddhism or Hindu or (GASP!) Islam. The point the creator of the FSM was trying to make was that the teaching of religion becomes VERY OBVIOUSLY STUPID when you strip away the dumb attachments people have to it and simply change "God" to FSM. It is not an "internet joke." It just got coopted by hipsters. I'm surprised at your level of ignorance on this. Then again, what should I expect? You after all have a penis.
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His rambling bullshit is almost as bad as Harry's. He's had maybe five decent reviews ever. His blathering about mathematics was vomit inducing considering we all know these guys can barely use spell check properly on this fucking site.
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...a good reviewer does not need a thousand words to GET TO THE FUCKING POINT. Let me summarise this review for you: 6 out of 10.
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The only way to make this interesting would be to have Underland ruled by Baron Underbheit. I'll pass.
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Was directed by The Hughes Brothers, not Burton.
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Was like being forced to sort thru Madonna's makeup bag in the eighties. Worse, a tranny impersonating Madonna.
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Did Massa fuck your girlfriends or something? (The two of you who have them.) The guy just wants to be informative! Relax!
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... ever since BIG FISH. If i never watch any of his movies again, i'll not care. And i used to be a fan.
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He actually produced an un-shown pilot for an Oz series. Good godz.
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cause, like, i fucking loved it. buuuut i think it would be best for both their careers if burton and depp started seeing other people. booooRING.
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Burton can suck it, he is the new Paul Verhoven.
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Meant Joel Schumacher, Verhoven isn't a masturbatory hack like Burton and the Mach.
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...i dont think ive ever read review i agree with more.
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Lame
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IS UP with all the dance sequences? They are NEVER well received and they are ALWAYS horrible. WHY ?
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I call mine "Foot". Thank you WPB. Best dissection of god, ever.
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Just like I was lost before reading your dislike of "Firefox." Most people don't give a crap about the books and only remember the characters in the Wonderland stories. I'm even a lover of logic, but I was never a big fan of Carroll's work.
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say 1 + 1 = 1. If you are talking about Boolean Algebra that is.
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Mar 08, 2010 11:11:59 AM CST
If you ever said: "I won't need algebra in my career!"
by darth macchio
Well...I think you know where I'm going with this...
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My momma always said life was like a box of hair. You never know if you gonna get a knot or not. Plus it's dumb to boot.Boots are great! And fun for kicking!
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