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LORD OF THE RINGS casting: Faramir

Hey folks, Harry here. About a week or so ago at an even here in Austin featuring John Waters as the headlining speaker of the evening (at the Gay & Lesbian International Film Festival) I bumped into Ethan Hawke and decided to stop beating around the bush and actually ask him if he was going to be playing Faramir. "Yeah, it's looking like it." We talked back and forth a bit about it. He seemed excited about working with Peter Jackson, but was shocked that I knew as much as I did about it. It seems he hasn't been paying as close attention to how casting has been going as we here on the net have, so I was able to tell him who a couple of his co-stars were. Then I told him of my affinity for the script, and he asked how I managed that... Basically, I just deferred to 'That is kinda what I do.'

Now, I'll tell ya this. I've met Ethan before... He was born here in Austin about a year before me, but I hadn't met him until the premiere of BEFORE SUNRISE back in 1995, when I had short hair and no beard. I had been blown away by Linklater's film (still my favorite of his work) and Ethan was so warm and real in the movie. He struck me as a very cool sort of guy. Then I again ran into him at THE NEWTON BOYS premiere. Believe it or not... he really does come across as a fairly normal kind of guy. BUT... this time.. well he looked more haggard. His cheeks more chiseled, his face... a tad weary. And this was the first time I looked at him and thought of him in context of dealing with an insane father. He had quite a bit of facial hair and his hair has grown a little longer. I know some of you out there really really dislike him as Faramir, but at least on this one night I could really see it as a possibility. I think he can do it, and pull it off beautifully. Now... his statement wasn't definitive, but while he's been up there in Toronto, I got this report...

You may have already heard this, but Ethan Hawke disclosed at the Toronto Film Festival that he will make an appearance in Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings trilogy. According to Mr. Thurman — who was sporting grotty fu manchu maxillofacial hair and a grotesque thrift-bought cowboy shirt — he will play Faramir, younger brother of Boromir, who by your reckoning will played by Sean Bean. Hawke went on to state his lifelong fondness for Tolkien’s work, his reverence for the material, etc. He also said that Tom Bombadil (sp?) will NOT appear in the first film, which you probably already know. Hope this is of use to you.

‘‘Doo-Ron Upchuck’’

So... Go ahead and pen him in. However, there is still no word on the finality of Uma's involvement.

Readers Talkback
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  • Sept. 15, 1999, 4:56 a.m. CST

    well, I'm pleased

    by assmonkey

    I know lots of people on this site hate Ethan Hawke, but I think he's cool and will be well suited to all that rugged yet sensitive stuff that Faramir does in the Two Towers

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 4:58 a.m. CST

    Hawke's In & I am First!

    by Elbereth

    I can't wait!!!!!!!!!

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 4:59 a.m. CST

    Well Almost...

    by Elbereth

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:18 a.m. CST

    Hawke as Faramir

    by celt

    Seems like a good casting - I can't think off-hand, but do you think Ethan and Sean sare any kind of a family resemblance? Hmm, I'm so pleased PJ is going for acting ability rather than audience pulling power. Every new cast member seems to get me more and more excited. Good, good.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:39 a.m. CST

    nice move

    by kev

    good choice i think, still not convinced about uma as galadriel, doesn't quite click for me, d'ya know what i mean?

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:41 a.m. CST

    Uma?

    by thebernards

    Harry, didn't you ask about Uma when you spoke to Ethan? I would think at this point, her involvement as Galadriel is more relevant, considering Faramir doesn't even appear in the first movie. Or perhaps you've assumed it's a both-or-neither thing, meaning if one's in it, the other is.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:43 a.m. CST

    OK.

    by greenleaf

    I've seen him in one film and I hated him. But a single film is hardly a good basis to judge an actor, so I'll shut up right now and leave you to it.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:44 a.m. CST

    Oh, sorry

    by thebernards

    I just read that last line, where you did say something about Uma. So I guess that means it's not necessarily a both-or-neither thing?

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 6:01 a.m. CST

    Hawke will be excellent!!!

    by Glaze

    I've seen several movies over the years with Ethan Hawke and while I haven't liked all he movies, I think he is a great actor with the range to pull off this role. This is not a major role in the sense that Faramir most likely will not be in the first movie, be he has always been one of my favorite characters. Ethan Hawke will do well.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 7:29 a.m. CST

    pray to God

    by Elwe Singollo

    I certainly hope he can act more mature than he really is. C'mon Ethan, suck it up and make this role YOURS!!!!!(Aside to greenleaf: Nice catch on that last talkback)( Aside to Goodgulf:You're right of course, but that's academic)

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 7:39 a.m. CST

    I swear to God, the World is going to End...

    by Paul Puck

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 10:29 a.m. CST

    hawke debut

    by m2298

    Ethan Hawke's first film was Joe Dante's EXPLORERS (1985) co-starring River Phoenix (who also was also making his large screen debut.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 10:55 a.m. CST

    Reality Bites

    by Mr. Loolar

    While I enjoyed Mr. Hawke's work in DEAD POETS' SOCIETY (a pleasantly lyrical sort of piece with a tone moderately compatible with that of LOTR), I found his portrayal in REALITY BITES to so be grating as to undermine the entire dilemma -- "real" artist over corporate dude. His work in GATTACA was competent but uninspiring; Jude Law's performance smoldered far more deeply. GREAT EXPECTATIONS and BEFORE SUNRISE seemed more along the Reality Bites characters -- that cliched "Tom Cruise" cockiness being the sole definer of character. I don't think this is an utter wash, particularly if he imbues Faramir with the earnestness and internal conflict he played so eloquently in Dead Poets, but if we get another brash and cocky leading man out of him, the part will be compromised -- that simply isn't Faramir. It's Boromir. ************ As for Uma, I just don't think she has the chops. She typically plays high concept as meaning her delivery should become more airy and breathless (like Aphrodite in BARON MUNCHAUSEN, or her GATTACA player). Galadriel has an otherworldliness that can't simply be captured with vacuous stares and belaboured line readings, a la THE AVENGERS, BATMAN AND ROBIN or the above mentioned pictures. And while her *looks* might be otherworldly, I think they fall more into the camp of *odd*. *********** Of course, PJ seems to think that Liv Tyler can capture Arwen as the most beautiful woman of the age; so maybe the females are going to be painted with rather broad brushes. For Arwen I'd like to see Catherine Zeta Jones type beauty -- a super model would be fine, since Arwen isn't supposed to say much. And for Galadriel, someone classy and timeless. Michelle Pfeiffer could do it, but I'd much prefer Cate Blanchett's cold and aloof beauty and timeless charm. ************ But Eowyn? THERE'S the real woman of the trilogy. Who will she be? Someone tough, passionate, driven, fierce, emotional, tender and deadly capable. If Minnie Driver were a bit prettier... otherwise, this is a place for PJ to make another bold move toward a fiery unknown. Cheers, Mr. Loolar.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:06 a.m. CST

    Elrond Hubbard

    by NowhereMan

    What? Still no rumors on casting for Elrond? My vote goes to Ed Asner!

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Uma & Ethan

    by tclouie

    In my opinion, Uma would be perfect as Eowyn. She looks too frail for Galadriel, but she would be great as a wistful tomboy, you know? Also, GATTACA was a great movie, but vastly underrated.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:33 a.m. CST

    Hawks and Woods??? Is this a teeny-bopper movie? Oh well, I stil

    by hanoverfyst

    nt

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Uma & Ethan

    by TorinC

    I agree with the above poster. Uma would be a great Eowyn. Why is everybody assuming that she will be Galadriel? Uma is a good actress with a strong but vulnerable personality. To me she fits the Eowyn role much better than the Galadriel part. And since Faramir and Eowyn end up as a couple having Ethan and Uma play these roles would be nice. I think Ethan fits the Faramir part well because Faramir is the unappreciated younger brother who doesn't have the superficial hero persona of Boromir, but beneath the surface has a lot more character. And, I want to put in a vote for Loreena McKeenitt to do some of the music for the LOTR movies. I think her music, as on The Book of Secrets, captures the mood and feeling of Tolkien's world beautifully.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Sarin Rufus must adore Punishment

    by The Jawa Jedi

    ....Because he has gone to every talkback on LOTR movie and ranted about how much it will suck. Give it a break! Maybe you should just write a big ass article on it and see if Harry will post it. Maybe then it will be out of your system. By the way, I really haven't seen many movies with Hawke in them, or at least that I have recognized him in. He seems a little young, but I am willing to wait and see how he handles the character.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:48 a.m. CST

    dol merry dol

    by greenleaf

    I saw dead poets society but tis a very long time ago; didn't know Hawke by then. The thing I saw Hawke-awaredly (WHAT?) was something called MYSTERY DATE. ho-hum... I was totally out and it was about 3 o'clock in the morning, but still... I do not like being remembered of Keanu Reeves in Dracula, so here you go. I have a very strong case against Hawke, do I? O, while I am still counscious, why o why is this Uma rumor about Galadriel? Eowyn, my friends, Eowyn. Now that I could see........ perhaps...

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:57 a.m. CST

    Meet Sarin Rufus, AICN's resident bitter-boy

    by Bregalad_

    He can always be relied upon to be pissy, venemous, short-visioned and long-winded all at once. *Yawn*... Never a gracious smile to be seen, never a glimmer of humanity. Wanting to be a self-styled "Great Nay-Sayer," he is but a walking shadow, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. Ultimately his light goes out, leaving nothing behind but a legacy of pointless, angry posts. Ah, cruel fate. ANYWAY, as far as casting Ethan Hawke-- I think he'll be splendid, especially if his deranged father Denethor is portrayed by a character actor who can really command "madness" and "grief" at the same time. Imagine Pete Postlethwaite with that burning Irish fire in his eyes, the agony of the Palantir consuming him. Contrast that performance with Ethan Hawke's gentle resignation as Faramir (which he can do, if you've seen the wonderful Before Sunrise) and you've got a winning combo. Indeed, Uma is NEVER given enough credit around here! Watch her in Baron Munchausen again, Jennifer 8, even Pulp Fiction, and tell me she doesn't have the chops! SHE CAN ACT CIRCLES AROUND THAT MANNEQUIN LIV TYLER ANYDAY.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 11:57 a.m. CST

    My dad knows someone who has met Ethan Hawke

    by gingeracrockford

    My dad is a commercial lawyer and one of his mates once almost did some work for Ethan Hawke and met him.WOW.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, noon CST

    Denethor was not insane

    by greenleaf

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 12:02 p.m. CST

    casting

    by Jedi Quinner

    i think ethan hawke should have been cast as an ent since he acts like a piece of wood

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 12:54 p.m. CST

    Epic?

    by Kjotvi

    Sarin Rufus wrote:"what has JACKSON done so far that you could describe as 'EPIC' in any way,shape or form..." Please clarify for me, do you mean EPIC in the "Dune" sense or in the "Heaven's Gate" sense? Personally I prefer the depth and thoughtfulness I am seeing in the production art for this film far more than the empty spectacle so often referred to with the term "Epic". As for the "country bumpkins", I suspect the New Zealanders have more reason to care about doing well on this project than some jaded camera jocky from LA.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 1:11 p.m. CST

    My 2 cents and an Arwen hypothesis

    by gnosis

    Can't take it anymore - who the heck do I KNOW that I can talk about this stuff with. I expect most of the problems people have with Liv and Ethan is that we have only see them act 'contemporary'. In my opinion, Hawke has shown the ability to be Faramir already (other than a whiff of Numenor)in his gallant, defeated, world-weary too early roles. Liv is another matter - it's fair to say she has no track record for anything like this. It's true that the best word to describe both is as 'wan'. XXXXX Grrenleaf, my friend, if you jump into a blazing pile of wood - you are officially mad. However, if you are suggesting that Boromir was not 'raised' by a madman - that Denethor's madness was essentially the last 48 hour sof his life or so - well, OK. XXXXX have any of you ever read the cast page at the ONERING, where they have what appear to be the actual casting requests for the film? Fascinating descriptions of characters. Anyway. Arwen is in all three films and must be able to ride a horse and use a sword. Here is my hypothesis for Peter's compromise: Arwen is going to replace Elladan and Elrohir - joining Aragorn in Rohan (maybe they will move that up too to pre-Helm's Deep). Then she will adventure withhim right to the Black Gate. live Tyler with a sword - not the most physical of actresses but you go, girl. So anyone who still thinks that the Arwen role is nothing - think again - the female romantic lead!

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 1:28 p.m. CST

    sarin rufus is right about one thing: SERGIO LEONE RULES!!!

    by Dodge Manhunter

    On this you have to agree with him. SERGIO LEONE was an incredible filmmaker! It sucked that the guy couldn't get a movie made in more than a decade! He was as great a technical director as STANLEY KUBRICK, but with more poetry in it. P.S. ETHAN HAWKE is cool, not an outstanding actor, but competent.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 1:45 p.m. CST

    Ready for Denethor and insanity

    by greenleaf

    I'm sorry Tim but if I did not explain, but I was at the end of the line. I've just 'refreshed' myself to respond to you. You owe me 3 bucks. OK I'll muster what I can here. This is (kind of) what I meant: Denethor is not mad in the sense that he has not lost his mind. Of course it would seem so for Pippin, who can't really understand what's going on or why it is happening. Denethor has lost hope. He does not see hope for Minas Tirith nor for himself and his son. The coming of Elendil's heir, and the lead of Mithrandir in the war are a great blow to this old man's pride. And besides Sauron has shown him the Black Fleet coming up the Anduin. It's not so surprising he reacted that way. He despaired. What's the madness in that? Had I been in his stead I cannot guess what I would have done. Of course, the Palant

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Faramir's a bit part ...

    by Dane

    Ethan Hawke's got the acting chops, but why is he being cast in what should be such a small role. Faramir is upright and conscious in about three scenes in the book ... I respect artistic license, but this makes me a tad nervous that PJ is aiming for a substantial rewrite. (A concern not allayed by hiring a fairly major name like Liv Tyler for what should be nearly a nonspeaking role as Arwen). As to Uma, sure, she's a total hottie and I dug her as Mia and Venus and even the vapid chick in the movie with Janeane, but she's way wrong for either Galadriel or Eowyn. Galadriel should be someone more timeless and classically beautiful, colder and more aloof, more like Michelle Pfeiffer. And Uma's just too big and girly for Eowyn. I see Eowyn more as Maria Bello from ER and Payback, or someone more of that Nordic ilk.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Denethor

    by Alessan

    Well said, Greenleaf. Denethor was by no means mad, only desperate. This was a strong willed, extremely competant man who bore the weight of his entire nation upon his shoulders - alone - and he was losing. He had been losing all his life, inch by inch, despite his valiant efforts, and in the end he lost his sons. Who wouldn't give up after that? After being shown that ever his finalrfforts would fail? You may say that others, such as Aragorn and Gandalf, had faced similar adversary and prevailed; but they had won some victories along the way, and they were never alone, and they hadn't lost a son. Under those circumstances, his behaviour was understandable, if not forgiveable. Now, I'm sorry if I sound like an apologist for the lord of Gondor, but previous commentors have referred to him (as they do to Boromir) as a villain. I see him as more of a tragic hero, and believe that he deserves that much respect.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 3:05 p.m. CST

    Denethor and more things to be scared of

    by gnosis

    Greenleaf and TB and the rest: People hvae a reason to be mad - whether inherently bad brain chemistry or extenuating circumstances - and Denethor had understandable circumstances! - it does not make them less mad at the end. But if you prefer the PC world of emotionally disturbed - it's OK with me. JRRT needed somebody to kill off and he fit the bill. I fear the debate may go over to definitions of being 'mad'. He immolated himself - the man had issues. But I will vote for sane until the very last night (post-Faramir's 'black breath' episode). Then - yikes! ***** Anyway, if the One Ring casting page really contains the casting note releases from Ms. Burrows prepare to be more depressed. How do you like these descriptions of Legolas: "Legolas sees Gimli as a dour, work-obsessed and humorless curmudgeon. It's the dynamic of the "odd couple": two opposites constantly bickering and bantering, each making jokes at the other's expense. But beneath the veneer of ironic humor Legolas cares very much for those he has pledged to protect and ultimately he and Gimli become fast friends" and Gimli: (hold on!): "Gimli is a boisterous spirit who enjoys poking fun at the Elves, in particular Legolas. Gimli loves wine and women and song and has a hearty sense of humor. Whilst hardly refined, he is capable of appreciating beauty, especially the beauty of well-hewn rock of the mines and tunnels made by his forebears" XXXXXX Gimli loves wine and women and song!!! well, he may have loved all three but I hope not in the context that implies. Dwarf-women being as we all know a pretty close-to-the-vest- affair! SOrry for the long post

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Arwen again - TB jam those fingers in deeper

    by gnosis

    Honest to God, this is the Arwen description on that page (http://www.theonering.com/html/casting.htm): ARWEN. Elf. 18 - 30, female. Slender, graceful, fine-featured. WILL HAVE TO RIDE A HORSE AND WIELD A SWORD. The Elven princess of Rivendell, Arwen's beauty is legendary. An Elf, Arwen is, by virtue of birth, immortal. Everything about Arwen is "Quick" - her fleetness, her smile, her temper, her understanding. She seems to enjoy playing against pre-conceptions of the classical serene Elven maiden. She dresses in armor, rides hell-for-leather and she gives her heart to a mortal man. Arwen's love for Aragorn is deep and abiding. She is prepared to give up her immortality and embrace death for him. But she also loves her father, the Lord Elrond, and it costs her greatly to defy him. Arwen's journey is towards a deeper understanding of the darkness and evil that exists in the world and a true understanding of what it means to be mortal... ARWEN IS THE FEMALE ROMANTIC LEAD. APPEARS IN PARTS ONE, TWO AND THREE. ACCENT: BRITISH. PLEASE SUBMIT STAR NAMES.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Loreena McKennet Music in LOTR!

    by Mirror White

    I can just here Loreena singing a mournfull rendition of Galadriel's lament: "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. Beyond the Sun, byeond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion. There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years, While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears. O L

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 4:40 p.m. CST

    Ethan Hawke in EXPLORERS

    by EdwardM

    I, for one, feel no need to excuse my regard for Joe Dante's work. When he is good, he is very very good ... and EXPLORERS is occasionally very very good, the kind of fun and witty and not just a little anarchic boys' adventure that there simply have never been enough of. As for young Mr. Hawke's work in that film (12 or 13 at the time would be my guess) it's fresh-faced, wide-eyed and entirely competent. If you don't like him in it, you just don't like kids. In a list of 20 or 30 "favorite" films from the 1980s, I would probably include EXPLORERS. Notice I said "favorite" as opposed to "best". It is indeed a b-movie, but full of just enough skeptical, tongue-in-cheek Dante-isms to rate as one of his best and most coherent ... even if it does sort of fall apart at the end.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:21 p.m. CST

    Dwarf-women, Ethan Hawke, etc.

    by 374774

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:24 p.m. CST

    Sergio Leone

    by dellajo

    Sarin Rufus has a bug up his ass about these movies, but he did nail the right director. Sergio Leone would have been perfect. Anyone who has any doubts should rent his masterpiece "The Good, the Bad & the Ugly" to see what the man was capable of doing with much weaker material. I'm hopeful for Peter Jackson, but there's nothing in his career yet which shows he's capable of handling these movies. Of course, David Lean and Sergio Leone and George Lucas all had to start somewhere, so let's just hope this will be PJ's moment. I'm excited at the possibility.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Dwarf-women, Ethan Hawke, etc . . .

    by 374774

    In response to Tim Benzedrine, in Appendix A, under the title "Durin's Folk" (pg 411 in my book), it says that "it was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk aboard except at great need. They are in voice and apperance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.' " Guess that means they have beards. Scary, hunh? ********** As for Faramir, I think that Ethan is a good choice. Don't know about Uma, though. I am also anxious to find out who will play Denethor. Keep talking!

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:34 p.m. CST

    Denethor - Just Rash?

    by Goodgulf

    Hmmm...Denethor, mad or sane. In despair, yes. Out of control? Yes. Has his only son thrown on a bed of sticks to be burned along with himself? Yes. Does he run through the ramparts declaring that he's Napoleon? No. But still there could be an argument made that anyone who tries to kill their children is suffering from at least temporary insanity or in dire need of counselling. So he's too proud to admit his own folly, and that makes suicide and murder a viable alternative...yeah, sure.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 5:35 p.m. CST

    Eowyn

    by BlueHarlequin

    I don't mind Hawke as Faramir, but please do not cast Uma as either Galadriel or Eowyn. She just doesn't have the presence for either. And who was it that suggested Pete Postlewaithe for Denethor? That's fucking brilliant.

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 7:46 p.m. CST

    Theme music for LOTR

    by Abu Ben-Shalom

    Thank You Mirror-White, for noticing that Ms. MCkennitt's The Mummer's Dance has an identical cadence to Galadriel's Song. It matches others of Prof. Tolkien's poems too!

  • Sept. 15, 1999, 10:43 p.m. CST

    Mike DeLuca's email address

    by DarthJoe

    Hello. I heard that Mike DeLuca of Newline gave his email address to this site so that people could personally ask him about LOTR. I would like to get in touch with Mr. DeLuca, so I would appreciate someone telling me the address. :-)

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 12:15 a.m. CST

    The Arwen/Eowyn Thing

    by Jean Lannes

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, so hear me now and believe me later....If Jackson, et al combine the characters of Arwen and Eowyn (i.e. the sword swinging Arwen noted in the casting description) it is going to SUCK! And furthermore, if Uma Thurman gets ANYWHERE near the character of Galadriel, then THAT will suck even more!

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 12:16 a.m. CST

    Check your watches

    by Tir Na Nog

    If gnosis lives up to his/her name we are in deep shite. When does this movie open? 2001? We have approximately two years to FORCE everyone we know and/or love to read the books before...Sorry, just a moment of panic! OK, OK, calming down...It's going to be interesting, that's all I can say at this point. But seriously, I've renewed my campaign of trying to get friends to READ THE BOOKS! I have a couple friends who claim to be fantasy fans who have never read Tolkien. Sword of Shannara, my ass! Confidential to those of you who have joined in supporting our petition for inclusion of the character "fox": thank you. And I agree with the suggestions some of you have sent for expansion of the character. Perhaps he will "find out more about it". Perhaps he'll ride a horse and wield a sword. Peter?

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 12:51 a.m. CST

    Congratulations,Mr. and Mrs. Hawke

    by morpheus

    I think they're going to do great!

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 12:52 a.m. CST

    Oh God!

    by Tir Na Nog

    I just thought of something. If they do combine Eowyn and Arwen, they can have one of those clever love triangles Hollywood adores so between her, Faramir, and Aragorn. What do you think? Do I have shark's blood running through my veins?

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 2:01 a.m. CST

    Loreeeeeeeeeeeeeena! (and other stuff)

    by Katerina

    I'm almost as big a Loreena McKennett fan as I am a Tolkien Fan. I would give my right udder to have Loreena be Galadriel's voice. . .for really, to me, there is no other singer on earth that can do it. But I have my suspicions that Galadriel's songs will be passed over and not even included in the film; and that is a tragedy. Ethan Hawke as Faramir: yeah, sure fine whatever. I can live with it. Having heard of Ethan's personal passion for Tolkien has earned him much respect in my view. . .and I am thrilled for him that he has been given the opportunity to be in the film. Can you imagine it? I'd soil myself with glee if I were an actor and in that film. Uma as Galadriel: the world will split in twain and the heavens rain down chicken gizzards and the earth will yield only peas as consumable food (I DETEST PEAS) if she gets anywhere near this film. Someone suggested Michelle Pfeiffer. Worser and worser! Ack hiss no, my precious! I'll hop on the pyre with Denethor and sing the-world's-coming-to-an-end blues with him if she get's cast. I'd rather they go with an unknown or with someone like Emma Thompson (not pretty enough you say. . .bah, she could pull it off and she has the dignity and the depth to play her), but that's just my own opinion. . .and no one ever listens to a thing I say! (shut up, don't look at me that way!). Anyhoo, nuff damn said.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 2:01 a.m. CST

    RE: eTeRnAl

    by greenleaf

    It's like this. We have an opinion, you know... Then Eternal comes in. He reads our posts. Then he *chooses* his opinion. Well... It's not really a matter of choice, really, because all he's looking for is a diametral opinion, you know... The exact opposite, yes, that's it. Then, he tries ?[really] hard to find some arguments to support it. This leaves me wondering. Is he trying to persuade us that he believes in his arguments, or is he really such a fool and is sincerely believing in this shit?

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 2:35 a.m. CST

    RE: Loreena

    by SirReal

    I am as big a fan of Loreena McKennit as anyone. Still I think it would be utterly wrong to use her music as soundtrack(s) in the Trilogy. IMHO vocal music can never be as epic as orchestrated music. It can easily become tacky (like the soudtrack for the cool flick Ladyhawke). I've heard lots of suggestions of who should score the music; James Horner, John Williams etc. In my opinion none of these should do it either. It's like with the actors: Someone unknown should write the music. Let's face it; James Horner is James Horner, John Williams is Star Wars and Indy and ET. The movies need music NOONE has heard before. If I could choose composer, and it had to be someone I knew of, I would hav gone for either Carl Orff (The dead guy who made Carmina Burana) or movie-composer Zbigniev Preisner who have made music for all(?) of the late Kieslowski's movies (Three colours: Blue, White, Red and The two lives of Veronica). These are my two cents. (Please bear over with my English writing. I'm merely a humble Norwegian). PS: To those of you who want Sting as Elrond (or any other elf): Have you seen him in "Lock, Stock and two smoking barrels"? He's NOT the slender Feyd(?) from Dune anymore. He's more of a middle-aged-losing-his-hair-chubby-dad-kinda-guy. I don't want him as Elrond.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 2:40 a.m. CST

    Great Caesar's Ghost!

    by Pipe Smoke

    Ok I don't know why that is my topic, but I just wanted to say... I am really ticked at all the people who are like "If Ethan Hawke is Faramir, I will cut off my left arm... if Uma Thurman is Galadriel, I will kill myself" DAMN YOU! they are both PERFECT choices for the roles, curse you all! see, DeLuca... and probably PJ, read these... and you are actively working toward trying to destroy casting I want soooooo badly to happen, it really ticks me off. I will forever be somewhat disappointed if these two are not in these roles. People are on cocaine in relation to their opinions on Uma especially, she is the best person for Galadriel in the universe, the only other good suggestion has been Gwyneth Paltrow but she's still not nearly as good as Uma Thurman. Pleaaaaaaaase let this happen.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 2:54 a.m. CST

    John Williams as Galadriel's Voice??

    by Katerina

    Now that is a-something I wouldn't have thought of. And there is a big difference between using previously heard tracks by Loreena and using her voice and musical talents to compose music that is PART the story. . .not as soundtrack. But the whole debate is pretty much pointless. . .I've not much hope that Galadiel's songs will be included. And to think of Loreena's voice coming out of Uma's mouth. . .great oogalee googalee. I'd have to be sedated.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 3:21 a.m. CST

    Casting: LOTR - Boromir

    by Geordiebert

    There was a story in the UK press last week (and confirmed) that Sean Bean (Sgt/Lt/Capt/Major/Col Sharpe, Janus in the Bond movie amongst other roles) has been cast in the role of Boromir, and that shooting on the first movie starts in October.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 5:04 a.m. CST

    oh sure

    by greenleaf

    You're right, Eternal, I do have mistaken a non-fan for a fool. I admit it. But your BIG FUCKING RANT is back, and I never

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 6:12 a.m. CST

    Re: Denethor

    by number6

    Tim Benzedrine said: "Denethor was deceived, and he did despair. That doesn't make him a villain, but he did fall into folly, his wisdom failed. He was over matched and was too proud to admit it and support Gandalf in his own stead. Was that madness ? You tell me.TB}->***************** Suicidal depression is insanity, even in today's "enlightened" times. The idea that you have to be 'a villain' to be mentally ill is, well, a little odd. Saruman used a palantir and became insane under Sauron's will, but also twisted to evil due to his own character flaw--overweening pride and ambition. On the other hand, Denethor met Sauron via palantir and simply became a broken, desperate man. Nothing evil there, since his only real "character flaw," if it is one, was the overwhelming pressure and sense of duty he carried. But he was every bit as mad as Saruman.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 6:30 a.m. CST

    Making The Movie Different Than The Book

    by Goodgulf

    So, Eternal, are you saying that you cna't re-read the LOTR because all the "surprise" is gone? There are a few films that stick pretty close to the book. The Andromeda Strain was almost verbatum the book, but when I went to see it, I still enjoyed it. Cujo was fairly close but they changed the ending. In the book the little boy dies. Hollywod wanted a happier ending, but it destroyed the story. So changing the story isn't always a good idea. The LOTR is one of those books that can stand to be left alone (as much as possible) and still delight those who have read the book when they see the film. If I wanted to see a different story or the story changed, I'd go rent Willow.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 6:59 a.m. CST

    To Eternal

    by SirReal

    The fact that you use of your time to read these postings, reply to them and involve yourself in LotR makes you in my eyes very much a fanboy. Unless of course you merely hang out here to provoke and be childish, as other posters have insinuated.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 8:22 a.m. CST

    5ft warriors

    by Brian D.

    Hooray!! another casting coup!! this time we get a 5 ft. 6 inch, 150 pound warrior to represent a race that is far taller than average men--ya, that makes sense!!! he'll be real believable onscreen... and sorry, but if arwen is portrayed as in the casting note description from gnosis, i will vomit right there in the theater--"she enjoys playing against pre-conceptions of the typical elven maiden?...rides hell bent for leather and wears armor?"...oh my god! the first feminist, ya, thats true to the spirit of the books!!! (note to potential flames-- i said spirit, not letter of the books)... not...this is distressing

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 9:12 a.m. CST

    various and sundry

    by gnosis

    I believe most of the posters can live with some changes - the main concern can be boiled down to something straightforward. Will the spirit of the work be maintained or sacrificed for Hollywood formula? The money men want some guarantees and go with track records, but I would say to the money guys that literature fires the imagination and the soul because of whatever individual qualities it has - sacrifice them and you run a greater risk. XXXXXXX Having said that, most of us know it will be a balancing act to retain the spirit and keep a 1990's movie audience interested. I am actually amazingly undisturbed by the expansion of Arwen's role - it is natural and necessary and Tolkien was both nonexplicit and the whole character and her role were very last minute. And, if he chooses he can bring a bit of Luthien to life in Arwen - Luthien was a pretty go for it elf-lass - she didn't let Beren do it himself!. However, I, like everyone else, do not want to lose Eowyn in the event. XXXXX More disturbing to me are the hints in the casting requests of 'Arwen rebelling against Elrond' (clearly teen Hollywood formula - although Luthien did... hmmm), taking the Tolkien Legolas/Elrond odd couple to a Neil Simon extreme - these kind of formulaic things are unneeded. The choice of Rhys-Davies along with the 'wine women & song' thing is well... scary. XXXXX Note to Eternal - I always read your opinions until I get to about the third f-word. Although Deluca told me he loves the anarchy...XXXXX Post is over long, but if you want new things there are plenty of unexplored or underexplored events that PJ can give us, and excitingly, apparently will from what we have read: Gandalf and Saruman the first time around, his first encounter with Shadowfax with Eowyn's help (good idea - could have happened!), seeing the Isildur/Elendil/Sauron battle, more from the Paths of the Dead in real time. Who needs more?

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 9:31 a.m. CST

    Patrick Stewart as Denethor

    by gingeracrockford

    This would be cool, dont you think.Not only would he pass for Bean and Hawkes dad but he will have great chemistry with McKellen having just starred with him in X men.Pete Postlethwaite would be better as Theoden though I favour Nicol Williamson for that role because he is a Tolkien fan

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 10:12 a.m. CST

    talk with a limp

    by avo

    Denethor? mad as a bottle of chips mate, bitch, you aint no ninja!! over and out of it yer bastards..

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 10:33 a.m. CST

    more musings

    by gnosis

    The fight for a reduced Arwen is over - there is no going back. Liv Tyler was not hired for 10 minutes of screen time. you can bet there will be more Faramir too if Hawke is in the role. Let us pray that Elves remain Elves in a Tolkiensque sense though - not a Hollywood idea. XXXXXX Reminds me of something I have wanted to say for a long time. Many of you have suggested that they are going to 'age' Suart Townsend to fit perhaps the one thing we all agree on - Aragorn does not look like a man in his twenties. Guess what folks - they did not hire Townsend to age him (outside of the Prancing Pony at best). They want a new heartthrob to do it with Liv! XXXXX Aside to the always interesting TB and all you 'it is not a trilogy' folks. I think we all pretty much know that JRRT thought of it as a single book - HATED the three part division -thought the six books were the 'natural divison' and gave them names (as part of an argument to his publisher - The Ring Goes South, The war of The Ring, The Return of the Shadow, etc.). As the three published novels are not individually complete (part of the definition of trilogy) you can quibble on that point as well (and neither are the six books complete). NEVERTHELESS for convenience, as in most published forms you will find three valid LOC titles, it is convenient to call them a trilogy. Not true, not intended, but there it is - this falls under the 'details as hoborcs' category to me. You'll note that PJ will call it a trilogy (to call it a serial would be BO death!)XXXXXX I am incapable of writing a short post. Embarrassing...

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Res

    by greenleaf

    I'd be glad to see Nicol Williamson involved. Tim Bendedrine, I'm suprised you're still asking that question about Denethor. Denethor's downfall clearly begins when he looks in the Palant

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Denethor

    by gnosis

    One quick response as I have been rereading the history of Middle-Earth. Denethor and the Palantir went threw a few permutations before reaching the final point. I think the conclusion from the character as written is that Denethor was ripe for a fall by disposition. And as written, Denethor was unsure of his strength and avoided using the palantir for some time and then gave in as things heated up - the time frame is inexact ('wrestle with the Dark lor in his tower'). My guess is perhaps he had been doing it for a couple of years. But Greenelaf is right - the moment he started, he was too strong to made a thrall, but ripe for being misled by Sauron - he saw what the Dark Lord wanted him to see and had not the strength (as Aragorn) to wrest the globe to his own use. XXXXXX By the way, an early draft of the chapter has JRRT suggesting that only the kings could get away with it - but that makes little sense with 7 stones lying around... still too long a post!

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 3:08 p.m. CST

    Book or Movie?

    by Garabaldi

    I have never once read Tolkien's trilogy... chalk it up to me being the kind of person who'd rather see the film than read the book... I've always been that way.******* So could someone tell me (without causing a firestorm) would a person like myself even enjoy this trilogy without fore-knowledge of what happens when I finally show up in the theater to watch it - OR would it be TOO COMPLEX to follow without first having read the books? I am a big fan of the fantasy genre, but I'm skeptical I'd understand it very well without delving into the books... ******** One last question - does anyone know if there are Cliff Notes available for Tolkien's trilogy? ;-)

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 3:56 p.m. CST

    Book or Movie?

    by Katerina

    Book Book Book! At least give it a try. I do not know how on earth a movie can do justice to Tolkien's words. How will they ever match Tolkien's description of Frodo viewing Lothlorien for the first time from Cerin Amroth? They can't. Oh, we can quibble and we can moan. We can squabble over who should play whom and what parts to cut and what parts to leave. But I think most can agree that the movie is not expected to replace the novel in any way, shape, or form. Will the movie be hard to follow for those who choose not to read the novel before buying his/her popcorn? I hope so, but who knows for sure until we see it? I remember when the first movie version came out. Many of my non-Tolkien-literate friends were confused and and bored. Of course even having read Tolkien did not help that ghastly mess of a movie. HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE. Let us pray that PJ does a better job of it. And yes, there are cliff notes available for the novel. Check out your local bookstore. I've seen them, so I know they are out there. But don't buy them, please. Read the novel. . .try. It might not be your cup-o-tea, but it is a wonderful book. I read it when I was 11. I'm now 35. I majored in English Lit. It is still my all time favorite. Mine. And how I envy you. . .for you can read it for the first time. You lucky lucky pup.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 6 p.m. CST

    Knowing one's place

    by Elwe Singollo

    (Cough)(Splutter)(Cough)Thanks Hashberry!Was that the Speshul?(Cough)O.K., where was I? Ah yes, Denethor. Poor Denethor. Proud Denethor. Whence came this pride? He was proud from birth. When did it show its ugly chops? Look to Return Of The King, Appendix A, The Stewards. Now, more speshul,please.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 6:06 p.m. CST

    Arwen the Valkyrie

    by Elwe Singollo

    I see Melkor and Ungoliant have found Peter Jackson.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 7:18 p.m. CST

    AEPD (Aragorn/Eternal/Pfeiffer/Dufusyte)

    by Dan42

    After weeks of absence, I'm finally back. I'm sure everyone missed my toughtful posts and insightful comments... NOT !!! :-) ***** Anyway, I was thinking about how strange it is that almost *everyone* imagines Aragorn as a 45-year-old character. I always imagined him that way myself but let's do the math: he lived to be 210, thrice the age of common man (that's in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen). So since he was 98 at the time of LotR, he should look like he's 32 or 33. Of course, you only come to that conclusion *after* you do the math. Tolkien portrayed him as a grim, very mature character but one can be grim and mature at the age of 33. So why does everyone think of him as a man in his forties? Any thoughts? ***** What a shock! Eternal (in his own very vulgar way) has written a post that I completely agree with! I'm not sure if I'll be able to recover from this one! But it *would* be nice if we were even just a little surprised by the story. [to Eternal: you want to know why you're not taken seriously? It's because you're vulgar and have no manners. Opinions are judged based as much on form as on content. That's just the kind of world we live in. Get used to it if (and only if) you want to be taken seriously.] ***** To whoever said they would die if Michelle Pfeiffer was cast as Galadriel: hop on the pyre with Denethor (not *my* words!) She would be *perfect*. Not only is she a good actress but her beauty has an ethereal quality that I haven't been able to find in any other actress. But since there's only a one-in-a-gazillion chance that she'll be cast in the movies... it kinda makes the point moot. ***** Great post, Dufusyte! It sums up what I've always believed: Adding to the story and cutting from the story are ok if done properly. But modifying the story (like replacing Elladan and Elrohir by Arwen) would only anger the fans. Are you listening, PJ? We're all going to go see those movies at least once, but the fidelity to Tolkien's story will determine HOW MANY times we'll go see them :-) Anyway, PJ has already stated that any cuts will be "clean lifts", so I'm not too worried on that side. As for adding to the story, Dufusyte suggested an *excellent* rule of thumb, i.e. the new Arwen/Aragorn material should be woven into the film in such a way that it "really could have happened" but was simply omitted from LotR. ***** Namarie, folks.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 7:44 p.m. CST

    ETERNAL!!!!!!!, sorry, damn caps lock.

    by aule

    I know..... what say we lock Sarin Rufus and Eternal in a box together for a day or so. Someone can then scrape the remains off the walls. P.S. Where is MorGoth??? Where is Vanyar??? Where is Stosslova ???? Come back guys, all is forgiven! I might start writing again if you people return!!!!!!

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Interesting point . . .

    by 374774

    One of the earlier posts brought up an interesting point (I'm not sure which one - there are too many :)). If they cut out Tom Bombadil from the movie (which I can actually live with - if scenes NEED to be cut that should definitely go), how are they going to explain how Merry obtains the Westerneese Sword? Its really critical to the story - with its power he is able to defeat the Witch King of Agmar (which by the way is one of my favorite scenes in the book.) I'm not sure how that will work out. ******** Dufusyte hit the nail on the head regarding how they should protray Arwen. Having her wield a sword and all that is totally contradictory to her character. That's Eowyn's job. Arwen can be a significant character, by the script simply putting more emphasis on her romance with Aragron and undying faith. ***************** To Garabaldi: READ THE BOOKS!!! I can't stress that enough. I still remeber reading them for the first time in seventh grade. It took me awhile to get into the story, but by the second book I was hooked. It's cool, because you can take LOtR on many different levels, and discover something new each time you read it. They go way beyond what ANY movie could ever protray, but PJ is giving it a shot and I'm sure the flims will at least be enjoyable. I commend him on that! But seriously, read the books. Don't sell your self short and get the Uncle Cliff's version.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 8:37 p.m. CST

    clearing up some things

    by gnosis

    First of all - I hope you don't all think the Arwen expansion is like my pet project or anything. Heck, I would like to see Tolkien's vision as much as possible. Dufusyte, I agree with you... but it ain't gonna be tht way. Also, the Arwen replacing Elladan and Elrohir is just my personal pro-gnosis (but from what I am reading I think it is a good prediction). Anyway, this speculation arises from way too much time inhabiting all sites on the net and that disturbing casting page on THEONERING.net you folks should go read that and see what you think. It is an odd mix of some dead on portrayals and some wierd add ons (did you know Gandalf had aching knees? And that he will look 70ish as G the Grey and 50ish as G the White?)XXXXXXX Anyway, I have said I can live with the Arwen character change primarily because JRRT had no clear idea of her either and she was a late graft on the whole thing (he WAS going to have Eowyh and Aragorn fall in love, debated over the death of Eowyn, and finally - as he says in his letters, the story finally revealed itself to him and there was Arwen, and he went back adding things - heck, the standard was made by Finduilas for a while). So Dufusyte - Arwen is so nebulous she can be anything. Anyway, I don't mind if they change her character AS LONG AS IT MATCHES A TOLKIENESQUE vision (such as Luthien) and NOT A HOLLYWOOD REBELLIOUS TEEN. But that is what we will get I fear. XXXXXX I guess you guys have already heard of the scene at Weatherrtop with Arwen and Aragorn. When she (gulp) sneaks up on the greatest hunter in the world! Well, I guess Luthien could sneak up on Beren too.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 8:55 p.m. CST

    one more thing.... or four

    by gnosis

    Oh yeah, why are you all so upset about the Arwen expansion but have nothing to say about Gimli and Legolas becoming The Odd Couple - those are fully formed characters we have come to know and love - I think a relatively accurate rendering of Legolas (indeed even an expansion to incorporate all the Elvish elements we will miss) is critical. I realize I am just going by that casting page - I need to calm down - breathe into a paper bag...XXXXXX On TBs comments and length and TV - you are right, in actuality the whole thing would be great with a few years of hour long episodes; middle-Earth masterpiece theatre. But I do not want to see this thing in ANYTHING BUT WIDE-SCREEN. If it ain't 9x5, ferget it.XXXXX Dan42 -I did not say I thought Aragorn looked 45, I said he did not look in this twenties. having said that, your chronological analysis may be accurate, but you have chosen a model for aging something like dog years and perhaps just as bona fide. His travels and authority call for someone at least late 30s in my book - not to mention the descriptions as we have them. At least he did not fall from his high seat 'witless and unmanned'...XXXXXXX Garabaldi - you will love it or you will hate it - but READ IT, for heaven's sake. I suggest waiting another month or so, it is best read in the fall and early winter. And one more thing - if it seems odd at first, attempt to stick with it to the end of Book I at least and halfway through Book II would be better. Many are thrown off by the initial chapters, when Tolkien was still a little bit in the realm of The Hobbit. If you find Tom Bombadil ridiculous - it is soon over, soon you will meet Aragorn and all will be well...

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 9:19 p.m. CST

    Lord of the Rings Casting

    by Snoady

    Hi, I think the cast being assembled is outstanding. Just two questions - has there been a conscious departure from using unknown NZ actors? (as indicated in Peter's first interview with Harry) or has the quality of NZ actors just not been up to the standard required? Any light shed on the above would be most appreciated.

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 9:28 p.m. CST

    Looks like I got back none too soon...

    by Palintiri

    I really can't believe the drivel the crops up from time to time. Dufusyte, with all do respect... you're nuts! You should really hear yourself talk. Hearing you describe what a woman should be is like hearing a white person describing what a black person should be or something similar. (I'm assuming you're not a woman. If you are then you have more problems than I know how to deal with!) As to Oddyseus & Penelope... maybe you should think about who wrote the Oddysey and when. Penelope WAS NOT a great woman. Arwen stands out as one of the truly undefined & underdeveloped characters of all time--upgrading her won't take away from any of the other characters and can only help the story. As for Elrond trying to set her up with a nice Elf... that is really stupid. That completely undermines the depth of character and insight of Elrond. As for her wielding a sword while I'm not opposed to that she could be capable of so much more... remember her lineage... if Glorfindel could intimidate the Nazgul then Arwen would be even more of a power... remember her lineage... she is a descendant of all of the royal houses of the Eldar & the Edain as well as from Melian the Maia... think of all the lineage of Elrond combined with being the Grandaughter of Galadriel--Tolkien has said that Galadriel & Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor. And it should be pointed out that Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Goldur three days after the destruction of the One Ring--after the power of the three rings had failed... Arwen could easily be more like Luthien than just walking in her image... [Is that Militant enough for you Celt?] [By-the-way... Where are you Celt?] Gnosis, I am in agreement with you about Legolas & Gimli... but I think that casting sheet may have been more the product of a casting director and not necessarily exactly what Peter Jackson had in mind. But, we'll see. Vanyar, I'm consulting with the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien & with my favorite Tolkien scholar (Mirror White... who says hi by the way) on the subject of Telerin hair color. Though need I remind you that Galadriel's hair was radient gold which was touched with starlike silver of her mother's kin. Her mother was a Telerin elf... more specifically the dauther of King Olwe. iblis technobabble... you had better be kidding about our man Ethan!

  • Sept. 16, 1999, 10:02 p.m. CST

    Arwen Again - No Character Is Quite Like Her!

    by Goodgulf

    At last, others who recognize that Arwen isn't just underdeveloped, she's not not developed at all. How many times have I seen the phrase "it would be out of character" for Arwen to do such and such. And my stock response has been - What Character? In the whole book Arwen is seen twice and speaks once (to Frodo). Tell me please, what here character is? Tell me what she looked like based on quotes from the book. I'll bet you don't extract enough information to make a bad wanted poster. Was her nose straight, acquiline, Roman, button? Was her face roundish or longish, how tall was she? What color were her eyes? Etc., etc. I don't want your opinion, I want quotes. The last time I did this, no one responded....they couldn't.

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 1:51 a.m. CST

    Structural Integrity

    by Elwe Singollo

    Hey I know....How about replacing the whole Bombadil sequence with Arwen? And how about a catfight between Eowyn and Arwen? Oh, I hope there is a semi-nude scene with Aragorn and Arwen. Maybe we can get a glimpse of Aragorn's butt a la NYPD Blue. That way the girls will come to see this thing too. Let's just give the ring to Arwen, she could wear it on her thumb. Or maybe her navel. Or maybe her........C'mon people, Arwen is a behind the scenes player. Hollywood resembles an agent of Melkor more and more everyday. Take it and Twist it. Merchandising is the bottom line. These flicks can have all the hocus pocus you want ( dude, the Balrog scene was eeeexcelllllent), but it's still the same old tired crap that Hollywood keeps dishing out. Where is Akira Kurosawa when you need him?...... Arwen? Legolas & Gimli? Gandalf Creakyknees? I nominate Alicia Silverstone as Eowyn.. And Tony Randall as Denethor.. and Peter Jackson as Saruman!!!!

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 1:54 a.m. CST

    P.S. I'm glad they are screwing this up...

    by Elwe Singollo

    now I can ignore it and get back to raising my kids......

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 1:57 a.m. CST

    P.P.S. This website is for morons!!!!!

    by Elwe Singollo

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 1:59 a.m. CST

    P.P.P.S. This website was created by the Spiders of Mirkwood

    by Elwe Singollo

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 4:31 a.m. CST

    A load of nonsense... :)

    by Halcyon Flay

    In response to the (much) earlier posts regarding dwarven women - I've always subscribed to the opinion that they are bearded. What REALLY scares me, though, is the thought that they might be hairy ALL OVER. Erk. Yuk. :( Sort of Yeti-like, perhaps. Heh heh heh. To Tim Benzedrine - when you mentioned Faramir probing Frodo I hope you were referring to the scene where he questions him - or is there now going to be some bizarre 90s same-sex inter-species luv action taking place. Help. And finally, to Elu Thingol - the Spiders of Mirkwood are all big belly. So there. :)

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 7:42 a.m. CST

    Everything is just so crazy...

    by Mandos

    I think I'm going to throw up.

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 9:32 a.m. CST

    Continuing my previous post...

    by Halcyon Flay

    Or should that be "all big body"? Honestly, my memory - tut tut... :)

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 10:02 a.m. CST

    Speaking shit

    by greenleaf

    So everything crumbles to dust because of these malenky bits on some stupid casting sheet. I may cringe at the mention of Arwen the Warrior-Princess or Gandalf Creakyknees, but I don't see why I should start vomiting all over PJ who's embarked on this huge project with the best of intentions. It won't help the movies. It won't help PJ. He may use our counselling, but he also needs the faith of the fandom. He's really in deep shit right now, and he's gonna have to patch things up when the next 20 Questions come his way. If they ever do. But for chrissakes, until we hear from him, please cool down folks. The shooting has only begun.

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 12:20 p.m. CST

    PJ and LOTR

    by gnosis

    As this thread dies out, and I find I have been the rabble rouser - let me say that although Greenleaf is right - there is no use getting too worked up about it, STILL... I can only say what I have said before publicly and privately. Deluca at least reads these stupid talkbacks and it behooves us to discuss our feelings about things. I thought it was a useful discussion, on the Arwen issue we had the usual 'don't change anything' folks and we had some discussion about if you MUST change... ranging from my heretical 'let her be Luthien' to Dufusyte's 'don't change her character' (though I have no clue what that is!). If I was a sciptwriter I might go back and see if I had made Arwen a bit too much like Rose in Titanic (to stick to the analogy of the moment) and not enough like an elf Queen. XXXXX That's my hope, and I know some disagree. As i once told Goodgulf remember they run focus groups anyway - made up of non-Tolkien lovers off the street. SO it is all well and good to leave PJ to his vision but a part of his vision is a bunch of idiots in suits, bean counters, and whatever the Saturday crowd in Hoboken happened to be. XXXXXXX The Tolkien crowd is important and this is one of the places where we discuss our concerns. XXXXX I know enough of the cast to be overall pretty pleased and enough of the script to be doubtful. Now I just want to know what scenes are left in and left out and then I can leave it alone for a while - but if they are not going to Cerin Amroth and I don't get to see if Stuart Townsend can act like somebody who will never come there again as living man - I want the chance to start making waves before that second unit is sent to the North Island! XXXX Which brings a fun new thread idea: if you could make PJ keepone scene EXACTLY as Tolkien wrote it, what would it be? My vote would be for Merry, Eowyn, and The Witch King all the way down to the sword of Westernesse.XXXXx Another overlong post (sigh)

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 1:05 p.m. CST

    Thought I'd join in

    by The Red Avenger

    After being amused by the little skirmishes a bit further down I'd thought I'd throw my two cents in. First, Arwen is not a major character - she only appears in about two chapters all three books - she doesn't even speak 'til she sits on the throne of Gondor (sorry but spoilers here, there be many - as if nobody here actually knows the story or can guess how it's going to end from reading the books or just going on the good v bad thing) anyway I can't really see PJ expanding the character and besides Eowyn is the true heroine of the story so Farimir, who has a bigger part than you think, will take the romantic lead in the third film. As for surprises well there is an awful lot of scope - as somebody mentioned there are a series of books that expand beyond the three books and these include such gems as the Battle of the fords of Isen (Where Erkenbrand drives back Saruman's army (this whilst Helm's Deep is happening - had he failed HD would have crumbled.) There is also the crushing of Isengard by the Ents told only in flashback by Pippin and Merry. There's the Silent terror of the black riders as they set out from Mordor looking for the Shire and Gollum's capture at Barad Dur and subsequent torture, release and recapture by Aragorn (As Gandalf tells Frodo in SHADOWS OF THE PAST. We may almost get a fairly good telling of Isidur's battle with Sauron near the beginning of the trilogy and his losing of the ring - there will be many surprises. How Wormtongue became Saruman's sneak and I could go on forever...the point is the story can be expanded by tapping into the other books. The main characters are strong anyway so we should never have to worry about that side. The one character I am worried about, and it could really all fall down on this is Gollum - his voice and appearence must be right. I thought the cartoon did a perfect job on him - mainly because the visual was right and the voice was spot on because they used a guy called Peter Woodthorpe who had voiced him in the BBC radio series which is the most acurate telling of the books outside of any film or TV series. The guy IS Gollum. Since the character is going to be a totally CGI creation that voice can be used by anyone and that voice has to be PW. If PJ has somebody lined up who is half as good then I think he'll win. Anyway keep the arguments coming. :)

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 2:33 p.m. CST

    Book/Movie

    by Stainles Steel

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 3:03 p.m. CST

    awww crap

    by gorlab

    ethan hawke as faramir....no...ralph fiennes is who i always imagined playing that role...oh and garabaldi, you are a retard...along with about 90% of the rest of the people who post crap on the message boards on this site...so many of you really need to take some english lessons

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 3:07 p.m. CST

    the Moriarty script teaser about Arwen

    by gnosis

    Just so you guys don't think this springs from MY fevered brain, this was the post of Moriarty to the OneRing last Aug. 11: EXT. TROLLSHAW FOREST - NIGHT ANGLE ON: STRIDER hurries through the DARK FOREST, collecting FIREWOOD. SUDDENLY! STRIDER FREEZES as a SWORD BLADE touches his neck! A WHITE HORSE steps into FG. ARWEN (o.s.) What's this? A Ranger caught off-guard? STRIDER slowly looks up. His eyes widen with RECOGNITION."

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 5:56 p.m. CST

    To gnosis or not to gnosis

    by Mandos

    Is this some weird paranoid nightmare? If I'm Aragorn, I say, " What the hell are you doing here? You're not Arwen, you are a demon sent by the Enemy to trap me!!" And then I start hacking with the hilt-shard of Narsil(Anduril). Then I start going after the director of this idiotic farce. Then I take the fucking ring from Frodo and start terrorizing those Hollywood geeks who think box office is art...Beware New Line Cinema et al, if your vision is corrupted, you will come to me soon to ponder your moronic mediocre imaginings forever.

  • Sept. 17, 1999, 8:32 p.m. CST

    Dufusyte and Arwen

    by Goodgulf

    Duf's argument for what is known of Arwen's character is the best attempt yet at trying to flesh out the mysterious princess. And I applaud his efforts while not being entirley convinced. Sewing a banner and giving a "favor" in some contexts could bolster the argument that Arwen was compassionate and kind hearted. But when she's dispensing gifts as a Queen to a national hero, it can be construed as a duty of the office, telling us nothing really about the character of the person doing the giving. Princess Diana certainly had many of those duties, but did we know the heartbreak behind the smiles? The public persona is not necessarily the private one. Making a banner only tells us that she was in love with Aragorn, something we already knew. Sewing is not a character trait. I've been to Rahway State Prison (took some teens there for the Scared Straight Program a number of years ago. Many of the inmates had hobbies, sewing being one. The only prisoners I met and spoke with were in for no less than double or triple life for murder. Now I'm not saying that Arwen wasn't all that Dufusyte has claimed. I'm pointing out that there are other plausible interpretations. But mostly I'm saying (still) that there isn't enough information about Arwen to make more than a wishful guess about what we think she should be like. I too doubt that Arwen would wield a sword. She wouldn't need one. But I dare say she could hold her own in a face to face confrontation with a Nazgul, and make him blink first. Her power like many of the Elves of high lineage was not in martial warfare, though considering what happened to her mother, Elrond might have considered giving some bow and arrow training. And Dufusyte forgot to mention that she enjoyed travelling - at least to Lorien.

  • Sept. 18, 1999, 6:07 a.m. CST

    Undomiel

    by Mandos

    Arwen is a symbol of her people. At least as far as the tale of the ring is concerned. Remember, the Firstborn are diminishing, the time of man has come. But most importantly, she and Aragorn represent the third and final coupling of Eldar and Edain. Through their mingled bloodlines, the restored kingdom regains its richness and nobility. Her role, therefore, is to symbolize beauty and love. She is nurturing. She is as far from swords and fighting as a wedding day from war. Structurally, she plays a quiet yet large part in the final return of the King to his rightful place. He's got the bloodline, he's proven himself to his people as a healer and a leader, and he has the most beautiful of the Firstborn as his bride. But she is far more than an adornment. No longer will the night be fearful, because her being inspires those around her to see and feel its beauty. Remember Byron's poem She Walks In Beauty? It does a far cry better than I'm doing....... Forget the f#$%&^* swords you morons, the nightingale sings. You would be changing the very nature of the story were you to change Arwen Undomiel, the Evenstar of her people, into Arwen the hot chick, kick ass woman who the popcorn brains could devour.

  • Sept. 18, 1999, 6:24 a.m. CST

    Evenstar

    by Goodgulf

    Using the term Evenstar as a metaphor for dispelling fear of the night is very lovely, but not accurate. Arwen was the Evenstar of "her" people, the Elves, whose time in Middle-Earth was drawing to a close. In other words, their day was drawing to a close and the new dawn would belong to Man. That Arwen marries a Man and become mortal herself symbolizes the transition. Here's a question for you. Why did Tolkien refer to the Elves as "embalmers". Some of you who have followed the posts on the White Council will know what I'm referring to.

  • Sept. 18, 1999, 8 a.m. CST

    Good grief Goodgulf

    by Mandos

    Refer to the exchange between Arwen and Frodo in The Return Of The King. I am afraid I didn't express myself clearly, but I was having to supress a very strong urge to launch into an expletive deleted type rant. Eloquence escaped me and the editor in me could not function well enough to remove any pitfalls exposing me to the pedants in the crowd...........So, enlighten me. Why were the elves referred to as "emalmers"?

  • Sept. 18, 1999, 8:06 a.m. CST

    Mandos is right

    by Elwe Singollo

    I find the posts by Mandos to be the most enlightening in this talkback.

  • Sept. 18, 1999, 8:27 p.m. CST

    Arwen's Choices

    by Goodgulf

    Hey guys, I'm not trying to make Arwen into a shield maiden, I'm just saying that it's not possible to ascertain her full character in two short scenes in the book. The first time we see her she says nothing. We learn she had recently (9 years before actually) returned to Imladris and that Frodo was amazed by her beauty. The second time we see her she speaks to Frodo and gives him a gift. After the fact we read the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendix, where Tolkien fleshes out their relationship a little more, but not every one who reads the book reads the Appendices. But putting aside any differences of opinion let me change the subject a bit. (I'll get to the "embalming" question in a separate post.) We all talk about Arwen's unswerving love and devotion to Aragorn. But we never think about the consequences of Aragorn failing. If Aragorn does not become king of both kingdoms Arwen will not marry him. What kind of true love is that? Does Arwen even have a choice in the matter, after all it's her father who is calling the shots. It was mentioned that Arwen was being a good and faithful daughter by not eloping with Aragorn, but would she still marry Aragorn against her father's wishes had Aragorn not been king? Or would Arwen say, "I'll love you with all my heart dear, but only if you're the king." We seem to overlook the politics here. There's no doubt that Arwen loved Aragorn, but she also had a duty to and a love of her people. Which love was greater?

  • Sept. 18, 1999, 11:34 p.m. CST

    She

    by morpheus

    Well since we're discussing Arwen.Arwen in LOTr ,as dufusyte has pointed out,shows a more 'Tolkien contemporary' lady's side to her.But is this her only facet of her character?We all have our own afcets and levels of characters .Maybe when it comes to wielding a sword she would kick ass,...She is supposed to be Luthien,beauty herself incarnated.And beauty is grace.Grace in the face of your(and your race's) impending doom.Grace amidst the strife in your mind.Grace aginst your pop's objections,Why grace even when in the soiling act of slaughter and butchery.The stay at home Arwen and the spunky princess warrior of PJ would be only fleeting glimpses of two facets of a woman that transcends both(remember Sam's description of Galadriel) .BTW I've always pictured the elves involving in the War of The Rings on the less tangible level.As Galadriel has pointed out LothLorien is defended not only by arrows and swords as she has the ability to look into thwe enemy's heart.....

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 12:21 a.m. CST

    Re;goodgulf

    by morpheus

    Well i could say that Arwen,like the rest of her race,has fore thought.I could wonder why an Elf would marry an uncouth human ape.I could then say that she would maybe recognise in this pertikler human a 'seed' of elven greatness.the glitter beneath the grime.She would then out of love prod this man into years of trial by fire by 'demanding' an ultimatum(become a king or i won't marry you).Maybe she was taking into consideration the brewing war of the rings.Maybe she had other plans.THese are only my opinions, which are bound to change.....

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 3:14 a.m. CST

    Morgoth - Good Point

    by Goodgulf

    Tolkien refers to the Elves as "embalmers" in one of his letters. I was going to copy and paste the quote, but I can't do a copy from the page it's on. Basically you were correct in assuming that the rings played a part. As long as the One Ring was lost, the Elves were free to use their rings to more or less stop time and maintain a bit of the bliss of Aman. The rings prevented "decay" or change and Tolkien describes them as embalmers. He says they wanted their cake and eat it too, to remain immortal in mortal lands, but at the same time time keeping it like their home across the sea. Tolkien also attributes them with feeling a bit superior ("superior caste"). So what the Elves have been doing for years is holding back progress in Middle-Earth for their own ends. We all know that once the One Ring was found that the Elves knew it was bad news for them which ever way the war went. For many of us, who looked at the Elves as beig pretty much wise and good, this might be "news". But once again Tolkien shows his sophistication in the details. We all know the story is more complex than a simple fairy tale. But every time I read some of Tolkien's comments I find out how much more complex it really is.XXXXXXXXX As for Arwen and others in the story. Some of course are more complete than others. But I can defend and demonstrate how Tolkien shows us the character of the primary players. He does it in the natural way all of us get to know each other, by spending time with each other. Instead of giving a page of information about what the character thinks or what their motivations are, we get to know these things by "living" with the character and watching their actions and listening to what they say. Of course LOTR is long enough to allow this to work. By the time the story is over you feel like you know the characters as well as your own family. We don't live with Arwen every day like we do the other characters, so we don't get to know her as well. I don't mind the general characterizations about women and indeed there is nothing in the book to indicate that Arwen was involved in any heroic activities. I think what I object to are posts that ascribe attitudes and feelings to her that also aren't in the book as though they were facts. My first response is to jump in your face and say, "hey wait a minute, we don't even know this lady, so how do YOU know what she would think or do?!" When the answer is "because that's the way all Elvish women acted" my little ears perk up again, because I'm thinking that this is beginning to sound like stereotyping. Not only that, but I had read a very interesting post elsewhere pointing out all the "exceptions" to the passive female and pointed out that Tolkien's use of female characters argues against the common notion that they were inactive. So, how do I personally feel about how Arwen should be portrayed? Just the way she is in the book. And I agree that if her scenes are expanded then they should be dramatic confrontations about her giving up immortality and the great sadness this is causing all concerned. Although some Elvish women were very active, and perhaps Arwen was too, they weren't active in the martial sense, swinging braod swords and such. Belive me, the script calling for Aragorn to be surprised by Arwen holding a sword to him had me worried. I pray they have changed that - hell I don't mean change - I mean I hope they cut that scene out completely. But if not, I refuse to let one character make or break the entire film. I'll wait and see how the whole thing turns out.

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 6:08 a.m. CST

    love and war

    by Elwe Singollo

    If you people are going to debate the matter of Arwen and Aragorn you had better brush up on the matter. Read Appendix A, part 5, Here Follows A Part Of The Tale Of Aragorn And Arwen. And try not to be too academic and pedantic, Goodgulf.

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 6:21 a.m. CST

    Elven eyes

    by Elwe Singollo

    " Then Aragorn wondered, for she had seemed of no greater age than he, who had lived yet no more than a score of years in Middle- earth. But Arwen looked in his eyes and said: " Do not wonder! For the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar." " Then Aragorn was abashed, for he saw the elven- light in her eyes and the wisdom of many days; yet from that hour he loved Arwen Undomiel daughter of Elrond." What? Shouldn't it have said " then Aragorn was abashed, for he saw the elven- light in her eyes AND her pointy ears" ?

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 7:53 a.m. CST

    Ask Tolkien

    by Goodgulf

    Tolkien said that Elves have pointed ears, not us. As for your question, you should ask him, he wrote it. But he also painted a picture of Bilbo laying next to an eagle wearing boots, though he never mentions them in the Hobbit. But he did write in a letter that Bilbo did indeed pick up a pair of boots in Rivendell and it should have been included in he book. Since Elves are never mentioned having pointed ears in the book itself I can understand why so many are hesitant to believe it. As I've said many times, it makes no difference to me which way Elves are shown. With or without pointed ears. BTW, Hobbits had pointy ears too. At least we should be thankful that it isn't a question about circumcision.

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Yet another fucked up cast job

    by Space Midget

    Just when I thought that PJ couldn't fuck this project up anymore he somehow manages to out do himself. What was he thinking when he cast Ethan Hawke? But the most unbelievable thing is that you people actually think this and every other cast job to date is great. The only person on this entire fucking website that knows what he's talking about is sarin rufus. He knows a bullshit cast job when he sees it, why can't you people see it. Anyone who thinks that Elijah Wood, Sean Austin, or Ethan Hawke are good actors and great cast jobs, has got some serious fucking problems. Jeez, the only thing this movie needs is the Baldwin brothers, Richard Gere, and Charlie Sheen and then it would officially be the most fucked up movie in history. But then again, if those people were cast you guys would probably praise PJ even more, so I guess there's just no hope for you. P.S. sarin rufus keep up the good work. P.P.S. If Dead Can Dance were still together they should do the music so the movie's not a total waste.

  • Sept. 19, 1999, 7:33 p.m. CST

    i understand Goodgulf's angle

    by morpheus

    He's being neither pedantic nor academic.He's just practising right discrimination insofar as LOT is concerned.Which requires total focus which is whgy one should fogive him if he seems like the abovementioned......Thee are many examples of the kind of peril we readers bring salong to the fairy land of LOTR.Preconceived notions....one example is the pointy eas issue.we refuse to accept the fact that Tolkien had written elves as pinty eared(if they are) cos we've first seen them in run of the mill ADND stories and refused to equate Tolien superior work with ADND.It would be diffeent if we had seen pointy eared elves in LOTR before the ADND hack.We would accept as natural Tolkien's elves as precursor to ADND's... It has nothing to do with whether elves has pointy ears or not....It has everything to do with our awe of LOTR and the linear thinking of Edwd De Bono;p

  • Sept. 20, 1999, 4:15 a.m. CST

    My ideal cast [or whats left of it]

    by gingeracrockford

    Theoden MAX VON SYDOW.Denethor PATRICK STEWART.Treebeard BRIAN BLESSED.Elrond SAM NEILL.Galadriel UMA THURMAN.Celeborn RICHARD GERE [OK I know I m going to get yelled at for this one but Celeborn is a very small role and Gere does have grey hair without looking too old]Eowyn MILLA JOVOVICH.Wormtongue JEFFREY COMBS.Eomer YOUNG UNKNOWN GERMANIC BLOND PERSON.Butterbur RICHARD GRIFFITHS.Gaffer PETER SALLIS.Mouth of Sauron HUGO WEAVING.Lobelia PENELOPE WILTON [Ian Holms wife]Radagast PETER O'TOOLE [in a neat cameo,and he does look a bit like a foolish version of Lee or McKellen]

  • Sept. 20, 1999, 7:59 a.m. CST

    a final note?

    by gnosis

    I am not suggesting that we should continue this conversation any further - the horse is gristle and bone. XXXXXX But gnosis, the silly poster, started this whole affair so gnosis the silly poster should end it as well.XXXXXXX As Inigo Montoya might have said, " I don't think you understand..." the real problem with Moriarty's teaser. It's a clumsy script. How do you feel about a script writer that has ANYBODY sneaking up on ARAGORN (the greatest huntsman and warrior of the age)ON A DAMN HORSE!!! geez, it ain't even Shadowfax... Unless Luthien is singing me to sleep I doubt I anyone could sneak up on ME on a horse. (I'm thinking with nazgula round, that Aragorn may have been well... alert). This, then, is the source of my fear. His reply had better be, 'Arwen, my love, I heard you coming when you were half a league away!' XXXXXXX I'll judge it after I see it too, my friends, but I'll comment on it, positive and negative, every step of the way. Maybe I will go torment the White Council for a while.

  • Sept. 20, 1999, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Unions of Elves and Men

    by Vanyar

    How many unions of elves and men were there? Up until about 10 minutes ago I always responded with a resounding "THREE!" Now, I discover that it was probably four (possibly more). WHAAAAAT!!?? you say. Yup. What started me searching on this topic is the reference in LOTR where Legolas meets Prince Imrahil and notes that Imrahil obviously has elven blood. That puzzled me for years. I mean, I knew it had to have something to do with Amroth, Nimrodel and their people, but didn't didn't know what the connection was...until now. Don't get me wrong, Prof. Tolkien made it clear there were only three unions of elves and men. And that is true...from a certain perspective. It would be more precise to say there were only three unions of Eldar (High Elves) and men. In Unfinished Tales, Chris Tolkien mentions some writings by his dad regarding the ancestry of Imrahil. In "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" he writes that JRRT wrote that Angelimar, Imrahil's grandfather, was the 20th prince of Dol Amroth in unbroken procession. He was descended from "Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth ... Galador was the son of Imrazor the Numenorean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas, She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil [the Balrog] arose in Moria ... Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)..." So it appears that mystery is solved. Ah, the amazing depth and richness of Master T's world. Namarie.

  • Sept. 21, 1999, 5:31 a.m. CST

    Ants In My Pedants

    by Goodgulf

    I am aware that my writing comes across as pedantic sometimes. This is not intentional, but a lifelong "bad" habit in my skill was a writer. But you'd have to know me personally to realize that. When I know the answer to a question, like having a direct quote from Tolkien on what the Elves' ears looked like, it isn't being pedantic or academic to mention it, especially when the question is being debated. Nor is it being overly academic to point out that Arwen has basically two appearances in the book, and yet there seems to be no end of posts describing various facets of her character. At no time have I ever said that these character traits were wrong, impossible or implausible. All I've said is that there is scant evidence to support exactly what kind of character she had, so there seems to be room for expanding her character in any number of ways, from extremely passive to conservatively active. I don't see Arwen as a major role player in the story, except as Aragorn's main motivation to achieve success. If Arwen had never been inserted into the story or were removed in the film, it would do less damage than removing Bombadil. Unfortunately Jqackson has decided that Arwen's role will be expanded, and we all want that expansion (if it must be), to be in accord with what Tolkien wrote. Since Tolkien didn't write very much about Arwen, then we hope that her character falls in line our notions of what she might be like. When we see Arwen in the flesh on screen, and she does some little thing, some nuance, some of us are going to say, YES, that's just how I pictured her acting. While others of us are going to moan and say, Arwen would NEVER do that, in just the same way we ALL yelled NO! when we read that scene where Arwen sneaks up on Aragorn. No WAY! The bozo who wrote that hasn't even read the LOTR as far as I'm concerned. But in the end, don't take anything I write too seriously. After all the film isn't being made by me, and the book is already written. I debate some issues out of fun. I don't call any one a moron for having a different opinion, but I enjoy the debate and will debate an issue so long as I have any ammunition or am proven wrong. And I have been corrected on several occaisions. I've learned more about the book lately than I have for many years. I've been battling with myself over whether or not it is proper to include information published in Tolkien's letters or interviews, like the pointed ear stuff. It isn't in the book, so are we obligated to include every new bit of information we come across? After all, where would it all end? Maybe someday Christopher Tolkien will edit an annotated edition of LOTR with footnotes giving all these little details that weren't included, but in the meantime most of us only have the book to go by. And for most of us, that's good enough.

  • Sept. 21, 1999, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Just to clarify. . .

    by Space Midget

    My full handle is "The Ass-Eating Palestinian Space Midget from Mars", but it wouldn't fit in the User ID box so I had to shorten it down a little. But anyways, I was thinking about this movie the other night and I think I may have come up with an even worst cast than PJ has assembled, if that's even possible. OK, check this out, Frodo and Sam could be played by the Olsen twins. Jim Carrey could be Aragorn, Peter Fonda could be Gandalf, Alec Baldwin could be Boromir, Danny Devito could be Gimli, and Keannu Reeves could be Legolas. What do you think? Pretty shitty, huh? Now I know what you're thinking, "Yeah Space Midget that's a pretty shitty list, but it's not nearly as shitty as what PJ already has". Well maybe your right, but at least I tried.

  • Sept. 22, 1999, 12:24 p.m. CST

    Space Midget is a troll

    by Dan42

    but a funny one!

  • Sept. 24, 1999, 4:54 a.m. CST

    Hey! Where is everybody?

    by Vanyar

    Man, I go away for a couple days and everybody disappears! Celt? Mirror White? Goodgulf? Greenleaf? ElanorSam? Dufusyte? Morpheus? Hellooooooooo? At least I know where morGoth is. That lucky sod is "working" -- yeah right -- in Florida for the week. OK, so somebody post a topic or something. I miss the discussions. Namarie.

  • Sept. 24, 1999, 12:21 p.m. CST

    Ethan & Uma & Stamp are all confirmed!!!

    by Mirror White

    TheOneRing.net has just confirmed Ethan, Uma, & Terrance Stamp! They are suggesting that Stamp plays one of the nastier roles.... can anyone say Grima? I tried emailing Harry but his mailbox seems to be full. Harry are you out there??? Oh and hi Vanyar! Thanks for looking up the Imrahil factor... (I hope that he will have a part in the movie!)

  • Sept. 24, 1999, 1:32 p.m. CST

    More on Ethan & Uma...

    by Mirror White

    They are also stating that the two will be introduced at the end of the first movie.

  • Sept. 24, 1999, 1:43 p.m. CST

    More on Ethan & Uma...

    by Mirror White

    They are also stating that the two will be introduced at the end of the first movie and will become leads in the second two films. Does this mean that Uma will play Eowyn instead of Galadriel??? Or will Galadriel's part be upgraded? In the Two Towers & Appendix B in Return of the King they talk about Galadriel sending Gwaihir Windlord to look for Gandalf and bear him to Lothlorien just after the fellowship leaves. "Three times times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himslef.. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed." It should be noted that Galadriel began the destruction of Dol Guldur began on March 28th... 3 days after the One Ring was destroyed and the power of her own ring failed. Just driving home a point to all the Galadriel nay-sayers out there! :)

  • Sept. 24, 1999, 8:41 p.m. CST

    A Nasty Rumor!

    by Goodgulf

    This is still just a rumor, and I hope it doesn't become true, but word is out that Gary Gygax of D&D fame has been hired as a consultant for LOTR movie. I am dismayed to say the least if this is true. But until confirmed I will merely voice my opinion that it's a bad move by New Line and Jackson and there are other Tolkien "experts" who would be better for the job.

  • Sept. 25, 1999, 8:18 a.m. CST

    Imrahil= Numenorean descent

    by Elwe Singollo

    Three. Count'em, One(Tuor & Idril), Two ( Beren & Luthien), Three ( Aragorn & The-Chick- Who-Rides-HellBent-For-Leather). Imrahil did have Elvish ancestors through his Numenorean descent. Perhaps that was the refrence JRRT was making. More likely foreshadowing Legolas and his first meeting with the sea as well as hilighting the effects of living by the sea ( Hilights those already grey eyes, etc...)

  • Sept. 25, 1999, 9:07 a.m. CST

    Blue Wizard you should think (or at least read) before you post!

    by Mirror White

    Sorry, but it ticks me off when people disregard well researched posts (like Vanyar's above) and makes a dumb, uninformed one. Imrahil was indeed of Numenorean descent though not of the line of Elendil. As Vanyar has stated, Tolkien wrote that at one point during the third age, there was an exodus from Lorien to the havens at Belfalas and one of Imrahil's ancestors married one of the Sylvan Elves fleeing there... bringing a new elvish strain... (it is not (to my knowledge) stated if the resulting offspring were ever offered the choice to choose which kindrid they belonged to.) Only the Elves who went to Valinor during the time of the two trees are known as Eldar, though they are often all referred to by that name. Further, it is also possible that Tolkien changed his mind as is witness when you read the 1st edition of the hobbit or any of the earlier versions of his storys.

  • Sept. 25, 1999, 11:52 p.m. CST

    Retraction - Elves Did Not Have Pointy Ears!

    by Goodgulf

    After a long discussion with some one with a much greater knowledge than I about Tolkienia, I have decided to once again change my position on the Elvish ear question. Elves did not have pointy ears. The Hobbits in The Hobbit had pointed ears, but whether Tolkien changed his mind, or just ignored the issue, he never again mentions their ears. As for the film, I'm willing to accept whichever way they decide to go on the issue. Gary Gygax was the co-creator of Dungeons And Dragons. He's no longer associated with D&D (so I hear). There is a fear that Gygax will push for a medieval look to the sets and costumes, which is not be the way Tolkien describes things.

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 5:25 a.m. CST

    Calm before the storm?

    by greenleaf

    Is it just me or the news are a bit slow these days? Not even a single announcement on September 22. Considering the HUGE attention this project gets, this kinda sucks. Methinks New Line has bribed all of our informers so that they shut off the news supply before the great casting announcement, scheduled for the end of semptember. If PJ 'forgets', I shall roast him.

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 12:48 p.m. CST

    Mirror Black and The Lidless Eye

    by Elwe Singollo

    Ah phooey. Legolas meant that as a compliment. The Elvish came from the Numenorean bloodline and shone more distinctly because of Dol Amroth's proximity to the sea. The whole thing is geared toward Legolas' first experience with the ocean. Unless of course Tolkien failed to state that besides the three unions of Elf and Man there were some minor couplings here and there. Obviously this is a line Tolkien decided not to pursue but failed to rectify with the rest of the history. Freaking bean counters...sheesh!!!! This is much in the same line as the pointy ears issue; the story grew in the telling and wasn't always consistent. Of course, that leaves a certain amount of subjective leeway in terms of interpreting the nicities of Tolkien Lore. Having been sequestered now for millenia east of what was once the Sea of Rhun ( Redding, CA), I can confidently say that my interpretaion is without a doubt the clearest, most concise, and closest to the mind of Tolkien. If JRRT were alive, I'd be his teacher's pet. So there, NYAHH!!!

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 1:02 p.m. CST

    Unfinished Tales

    by Elwe Singollo

    JRRT was wrong in his development of Imrahil's ancestry, since the history before it was already set in stone as it were. That's the main reason it went unfinished. If you disagree, refer to Christopher Tolkien. If you agree, then I commend you upon a singularly brilliant choice.

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 1:04 p.m. CST

    morGoth I think you misunderstood me...

    by Mirror White

    Amroth was an elf so of course he and any other elf can set sale for Valinor... i was only questioning if the 1st generation offspring of Imrahil's ancesters (elf & man) were given the choice that Earendil, Elwing, and the other halfelven were given.

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 1:12 p.m. CST

    You really are a moron...

    by Palintiri

    blue wizard stop making stupid posts when its obvious you don't know what the !@#@ you're talking about. Why don't you go inflict your stupid opinions someplace else... someplace comensurate with your level of intelligence... say in an America Online chat room?

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Hi everyone!

    by Palintiri

    Hey morGoth, Goodgulf, Vanyar, Celt, et. al. Where are you guys? Did everyone hear the news about Uma, Ethan & Terrance Stamp? Maybe Harry could post the news so everyone would come back and start a spirited discussion. Well almost everyone. :) Talk with you all soon...

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 1:16 p.m. CST

    Where is Creamy Goodness?

    by Palintiri

    Where are you Creamy??? It has been dull around here without you!

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 1:47 p.m. CST

    The Latest from TheOneRingNet!!!

    by Palintiri

    9/26/99 Latest News -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uma as Eowyn? Blanchett as Galadriel?! Xoanon @ 10:27 am CST Rumor has it that Uma is being looked over for Eowyn and not Galadriel as everyone thought. A ringer spy sent me this email correspondence he had with Michael Deluca, read on: Dear Mr. DeLuca, I know how busy you are, and how you've probably already gotten many e-mails on this subject but if you have even a second to send me any kind of response it would be infinately appreciated :) As the subject says, I am e-mailing you about Uma for Galadriel and Ethan for Faramir. Thanks for the support. We're actually considering Uma for Eowyn, not Galadriel, but we don't know if she'll do it yet. We're trying to get Cate Blanchett for Galadriel. The Emailiac strikes again! Could this news be true? We shall see... more news to come!

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Which was the biggest fool, Alatar or Pallando? 'Blue Wizard' is

    by greenleaf

    Actually, the news come from Imladris. Xoanon is just too preocupied with the promotion of his (great) site to provide a link or at least give credit to his source. *** '...not Galadriel as everyone thought.' Not everyone. *** I'd also go for a bit of creamy goddess, uh, I mean goodness just about right now.

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 4:45 p.m. CST

    Ringbearer.org has the Blanchett/Thurman info with a GREAT photo

    by Mirror White

    Check out http://www.ringbearer.org/tolkienpage.html#s00398!!! Haven't I been saying all along that Cate Blanchett would be SUPERB in Lord of the Rings... I had thought she would make a great Eowyn but she could definitely bring Galadrial to life!!! Now if we could only get Loreena McKennit to sing Galadrial's lament for the movie... :) And greanleaf & Palintiri were right... where is Creamy Goodness???

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 4:46 p.m. CST

    Ringbearer.org has the Blanchett/Thurman info with a GREAT photo

    by Mirror White

    Check out http://www.ringbearer.org/tolkienpage.html#s00398!!! Haven't I been saying all along that Cate Blanchett would be SUPERB in Lord of the Rings... I had thought she would make a great Eowyn but she could definitely bring Galadrial to life!!! Now if we could only get Loreena McKennit to sing Galadrial's lament for the movie... :) And greanleaf & Palintiri were right... where is Creamy Goodness???

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 5:58 p.m. CST

    Ringbearer.org has the Blanchett/Thurman info with a GREAT photo

    by Mirror White

    Check out http://www.ringbearer.org/tolkienpage.html#s00398!!! Haven't I been saying all along that Cate Blanchett would be SUPERB in Lord of the Rings... I had thought she would make a great Eowyn but she could definitely bring Galadrial to life!!! Now if we could only get Loreena McKennit to sing Galadrial's lament for the movie... :) And greanleaf & Palintiri were right... where is Creamy Goodness???

  • Sept. 26, 1999, 10:42 p.m. CST

    Twisted Panties

    by Elwe Singollo

    L..........O.............L

  • Sept. 27, 1999, 12:18 a.m. CST

    Don't wet your pants Mirror black

    by Elwe Singollo

    You've got Creamy Goodness all over your face.

  • Sept. 6, 2006, 9:44 p.m. CST

    Thank you for informing us about lack of text.

    by Wolfpack