Cool News
Dreamy Docs Claire Saunders & Bennett Halverson Return Friday For The Beginning Of The End Of Joss Whedon’s DOLLHOUSE!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Thought Joss Whedon said Amy Acker would only be in three episodes this season? If Fox is to believed, we’ve got her for three more!
Tonight:
GETTING CLOSER
Written and directed by “Angel”/“Firefly” vet Tim Minear.
Topher races to reconstruct Echo's original personality and memories when Adelle realizes they are the key to adverting a devastating future. Meanwhile, Echo and Bennett's shared past and the identity of the Rossum's Corpration's mysterious leader are revealed. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline Costley/November; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Philip Casnoff as Clive Ambrose; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Rick Otto as Gabe; Jay Malone as Young Man.
Next Friday:
THE HOLLOW MEN
Written by Michele Fazekas & Tara Butters (creators of “Reaper”) & Tracy Bellomo (“The Left Hand”).
Sacrifices are made when Echo leads her crew to Arizona to dismantle the Rossum Corporation's mainframe. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline Costley/November; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic.
The Jan. 22 series finale:
EPITAPH TWO: RETURN
Written by Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon (“Epitaph One,” “Meet Jane Doe,” “The Attic”) & Andrew Chambliss (“Meet Jane Doe,” “Stop Loss”).
Picking up from the events depicted in "Epitaph 1," the "lost" episode of DOLLHOUSE, and set in the year 2020, Echo and her surviving Dollhouse crew attempt to restore order to a devastating future world before mankind is eliminated. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline Costley/November; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Alan Tudyk as Alpha; Adair Tishler as Caroline; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo; Felicia Day as Mag; Zack Ward as Zone; Nate Dushku as Clive; Noah Harpster as Matthew; Christian Monzon as Romeo; Brandon Dieter as T.
9 p.m. Friday. Fox.
Follow Herc on Twitter!!
New From Darth Vader’s Daddy!!
Cousin? Business Is A-Boomin' Jan. 12!!
Written and directed by “Angel”/“Firefly” vet Tim Minear.
Topher races to reconstruct Echo's original personality and memories when Adelle realizes they are the key to adverting a devastating future. Meanwhile, Echo and Bennett's shared past and the identity of the Rossum's Corpration's mysterious leader are revealed. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline Costley/November; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Philip Casnoff as Clive Ambrose; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Rick Otto as Gabe; Jay Malone as Young Man.
Written by Michele Fazekas & Tara Butters (creators of “Reaper”) & Tracy Bellomo (“The Left Hand”).
Sacrifices are made when Echo leads her crew to Arizona to dismantle the Rossum Corporation's mainframe. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline Costley/November; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic.
Written by Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon (“Epitaph One,” “Meet Jane Doe,” “The Attic”) & Andrew Chambliss (“Meet Jane Doe,” “Stop Loss”).
Picking up from the events depicted in "Epitaph 1," the "lost" episode of DOLLHOUSE, and set in the year 2020, Echo and her surviving Dollhouse crew attempt to restore order to a devastating future world before mankind is eliminated. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline Costley/November; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Alan Tudyk as Alpha; Adair Tishler as Caroline; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo; Felicia Day as Mag; Zack Ward as Zone; Nate Dushku as Clive; Noah Harpster as Matthew; Christian Monzon as Romeo; Brandon Dieter as T.
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So I will continue to not watch it right until the end.
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Not that Whedon is bad like Dollhouse. That show is bad on its own. Whedon is quite good. But Dollhouse is not the best example of that. Do I make myself clear? Good!
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but it's developed into a fine TV show. Now I'm sad to see it go, and that's a sentiment I couldn't have expressed for the first quarter of the show's run.
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At the end of Season 1 I wasn't sad at the rumors of cancelation. Then I saw Epitaph One and that all changed. Then Season 2 started out with a thud and I almost stopped watching... I am glad I hung in there though, as the last 8 episodes have been mostly fantastic. Can't wait to see where it is heading, and I am now pretty bummed it is almost over.
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It was way ahead of its time, for television. While plots about the manipulation of identity, questions of the soul, etc.. are not new to sci-fi fiction, on television it was practically ground breaking.
(I think Babylon 5 did it briefly when it came to mind-wipes and Andrea Thompsons sleeper personality Talia Winters)
Maybe when the concept has moved more into the public understanding, a show that deals with it will be more likely to succeed. -
The good qualities of Firefly were apparent from the get go. FOX had a heavy hand in f'ing it up. This time Whedon had a great fanboy cast, good budget, interesting story, and it missed on nearly every level. The pilot felt like the 4th season premiere. I blame Lost and all it's silliness.
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..Think it was actually mentioned before S2 aired that the survivors in Epitaph One would feature in the Season 2 Pilot, but they didn't. I thought from this erronious information that Season 2 episodes would switch between present day and the Epitaph future, much like Lost switches between flashbacks and present day. It would have been groovy, linking events in the present with the future effects of these events in realtime. The future should have become the focus of the show, intercut with the present day goings on at the Doll House
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Jan 08, 2010 3:35:11 AM CST
Did Alexis Densioff get much screen time?
by rickety_crickets_bionic_legs
I know he was supposed to be in a few episodes this season. On a sidenote, what the hell happened to this guy? He kicked ass on Angel and then vanished.
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Just asking.
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Aside from boning his wife to pregnancy and back, he guest starred on How I Met Your Mother. Haven't seen him in anything else.
He was in a couple of Dollhouse episodes, but only one where he was a prominant character. -
...when Echo starts "adverting" a devastating future. Man, I hate adverts.
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Great Typo.
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Is it confirmed that this won't be returning for S3?
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Going back to watch the show again, I realize how they fucked up Paul beyond belief at times. Guy has two dolls sent after him to fuck not only his FBI job, but his personal life as well then he helps Alpha kidnap by accident. Paul also got shot and the shit kicked out of him. While this season he has taken a backseat, last season, he was wrecked. I am glad Joss is going to wrap this up, but he pulls an Angel, I'll be pissed.
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In the next 3 eps I reckon we'll be seeing the horrific death of Ivy (you know it to be true), a heroic death for Boyd, funny Topher lines, Amy Acker being hot/creepy at the SAME TIME!, the reveal of the head of Rossum being Keith Carradine, some last minute redemption for Adelle and a bleak and yet oddly uplifting final scene of the series (like Epitaph 0ne did).
There. Fuck you Fox. Best premise of the last few years, fucked over by a network. Again. -
preferably where she gets naked
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I liked it from the word go- intersting premise, but man there too many "quantum leap with hookers" episodes. If they had been as focused and tight as they are now, it doubt it would have been cancelled because some of the season 1 and 2 stand alone episodes were just dull and not needed.
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For a clown. Exactly how many approaches do you have to being a troll? Have you used them all up, or can we look forward to a few more? Oh no! Your troll worked! I spent 18 seconds of my valuable time responding to you.
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once the entire series hits DVD. If the one thing the "double Dollhouse" burn-off taught us, it's that the episodes compliment each other very well when run together.
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Well, this is Fox, so I guess I really shouldn't be all that surprised...
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IT'S A TRAP!!!
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wha....?
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Good one, mate :)
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Hasn't been picked up yet though.
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I'd still hit it like the fist of an angry god.
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Subject matter and a lack of understanding concerning the human mind and personality doomed this show. The moral void was also a problem, since we were asked to root for the slave (Echo) and the slavers (The Dollhouse) at the same time. Difficult leap there, Joss. Anyway, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind handeled this topic much better than Dollhouse, and I'm glad to see it go.
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Fuck you Joss Whedon for wasting the two hottest skinny kick ass brunette scifi babes on such a shitty show. What chance will we have to see them together again. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And you blew it.
Of course you did introduce them in the first place. -
as completely ripped off from whedonesque[dot]com: As of now, whose mind has the greater claim to Caroline's body - Caroline or Echo's?
I chose Caroline. -
You've got to hit the ground running. You can't fiddle-fart around until the second season to start hitting on all cylinders. Also, intelligent sci-fi does not work on the major networks. The audience is small for intelligent sci-fi so it needs to be on a smaller cable network. In an America where TV shows about fat people losing weight are popular there is no hope for anything that takes patience or intelligence, at least on the major networks where the lowest common denominator rules.
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Well, possession is 9 tenths of the law, as they say.
But I think the poll misses the point of the show by asking that question. It's irrelevant. Because bodies are now as interchangeable as clothes.
The only thing that would actually matter, is whose mind is free and whose mind is static, locked up on a hard drive somewhere. -
The show has always been solid, but the network model of forcing writers to drag shit out to an endless, ongoing series is stifling and an utter failure. It makes for mediocre television, low ratings, and an antagonized viewers.
Only when Dollhouse got cancelled and they had an END DATE did it really start hitting on all cylinders. ABC was smart enough to negotiae an end date for LOST and it saved that show from becoming a disasterous joke. You can't tell a satisfying story by dragging it out without a clear end. -
I've just started watching Firefly, and for a self-proclaimed feminist Whedon seems to have an unhealthy fixation on prostitution.
I love the way he makes up these respectable names like 'companions' and 'dolls'.
Dude has blatantly had some seedy back alley blow jobs. -
Get the season one DVD and watch the original pilot. It did a very good job of setting up the Dollhouse, its rules, why it works the way it does etc etc. It also did a better job of showing WHY Echo and the others were starting to get their memories back (the whole concept of 'pro-bono' missions). While still setting the stage for a lot of mysteries the pilot did not leave one utterly confused at the end.
Whereas the Fox mandates for the second pilot seemed to have been 'vague things up' and 'make it more like Lost'. In other words, all mystery, no set up. That can work when you've got characters to cover for a vague plot, but Dollhouse deliberately did NOT have characters well established early on. It needed a solid world/plot to build around them from the beginning. -
Ackbar, it's a TRAP, instant mental picture, good on you sir.
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The irony is that by making a show less serialised and more network friendly you lose the audience. Its like what happened to BSG in season 3. Networks may like self-contained stories where the characters get reset at the end of the hour (ironic that this is what Dollhouse was criticised for) but audiences wnat serialisation. They want each episode to have a dramatic weight and consequence.
The most annoying thing is that I bet Dollhouse makes a killing on DVD, and then the show will prove itself as profitable, just not enough for advertisers. The whole system is fucked up and backwards. -
Right. Self-contained episdoes are fine, but there has to be a light at the ned of the tunnel, especially with the Gen ADHD. If they don't like what they see instantly they fuck off. If there is the slightest hint that it might get canceled they fuck off. No one wants to get invested in a show only to have it get canceled with no ending. It's a smack in the face to viewers and creators alike. People want to know that regardless of the ratings they are going to get a complete story. that's why ratings are down. People figure, well if it lasts then I'll catch in on DVD and spare myslef the pain of getting invested in something they may drop off the earth without a resolution or, hell, even an extended season. If people knew what they were getting into they might stick it out.
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Not one of you bitches or bastards even asked about me? "Is the Messiah, alright?"..."Where is he?"..."Did he have a good Christmas, or a Happy New Year, or what?"..."We miss him and can't live without him...often crying ourselves to sleep, thinking about him" I mean, I could have been dead, or something--where is the love people? Anyway, I'm back to remind you, that party don't start until the Messiah has arrived!!! And now that I am here, always fashionably late, of course, let the party begin!!! So let it be written, so let it be done!!! Damn, I'm bad!!!
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I don't know if it was intentional on Akkosa's part or not, but he/she was on to something there. I simply picked up the ball and ran with it.
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Global TV in Canada re-worked the schedule a bit and kept it in the earlier slot. I had to push up my dinner reservations & everything! Hoping to be nice and lubricated while I race home in the car...
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If so, you're cool in my book!!! Lubricated??? Oh, my, that sounds naughty somehow??? Haha!!!! Anyway...don't race home, and take your time--no need to take unnecessary risks for a TV show!
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damn canadians in the wrong time zone. :P
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Wolverine, James Cameron, William Shatner...and my Grandmother, all Canucks!!!
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So is this Caroline? Oh, a terrorist. Nice.
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"Kill you with my brain"
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course when I lose something, I actually look for it in other places, not just where I think it should be.
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Bennett is tres creepy.
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whatsoever.
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with the hair "treatment". Also Bennett & Topher were sweet & nerdy. Also creepy.
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Boyd's "Watcher-like"speech.
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the episodes "clock" starts. Loving Adelle tonight too: Her description of Bennett & her double take.
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Not true!
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"That wasn't a reference." Hee!
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this is a E1 scene. huh.
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So CREEPY! Cute but still. At least it matches their strange score.
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NO FUCKING WAY.
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Goddammit.
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Jan 08, 2010 8:37:34 PM CST
Uggh, Even Summer Glau couldn't get me to watch all of it
by mistergreen
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And that's why I keep coming back.
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Whedonesque just exploded.
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Boyd is the Big Bad. I am stunned.
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Weird.
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"Although they seem happy to work for humans, that changes and leads to the end of the human race due to a hostile robot rebellion."
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He was the only one that made sense. But they did a good job of misdirection. And am I wrong in assuming the other guy was basically Topher?
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And now that I'm seeing that Joss might have ended each season with an Epitaph (makes sense now that I think about it) I am even more disappointed at its cancellation. This could have been great.
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Nice one, Herc.
http://tinyurl.com/ysdzqy -
But noooooo, it was more important to have Echo being chased through the woods or do a version of STAR TREK's "The Naked Time." Well, at least it's ending strong.
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I mean Wow, I'm speacheless
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...And shockin... good to see interracial love also wit the real life black bf cameo and Amy Acker goin back to the brothers lol... but damn Boyd! damn!
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oh ...spoiler warning in case anyone hasnt seen it yet so yeah.............anyway on to my point, i noticed that summer glau was shot on the edge of her head, not a direct between the eyes shot. i know there's only like 2 or 3 episodes left but i can see them using that as an excuse as to why she can be saved somehow.
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She's dead. Her up & coming credits are either a mis-direct or flashback.
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make me feel like I have to go back to the beginning and watch every episode over again. I'm still kinda mind-fucked.
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Only one to catch this?
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buffywrestling I so agree....
I hated this show with a passion , it was so cheesy and generic (thanks Fox you bastards) ,and after my beloved TSCC was cancelled to make way for it , but I would tell anyone who hated it like me to watch the whole thing again , especially this season , because it simple shows what Joss Whedon could have done from the start...Amazing! -
I made waves way back when on this site, when I posted an early review of Serenity stating that I was a disgruntled browncoat.
Even before this episode, but now definitely so after, all is forgiven, Mr. Whedon.
I get it now.
Would "Dollhouse" not already have been so dismissed, this would go down as one of the most shocking, amazing, cool episodes of TV ever. In fact, I think Joss had this card in the deck all along but was hoping to hold onto it for 2-3 more years. Regardless, bravo sir.
And as far as Serenity, I get it now. I really do. Except for Sean Maher whose character portrayal I still feel was too far from the series to ever believe and credit for hurting the film for me.
All that said, I tonight will mourn "Dollhouse" as well as Whedon for once again losing out on one of TV's most brilliant, original, shocking, and wholly entertaining shows, and thank him for continuing to try new things.
Thank you Joss, and please keep doing what you do. I'll take 1-2 seasons of a Serenity or Dollhouse over 99% over the other TV and cable offerings.
May your next home be HBO or Showtime, where execs seem to somehow understand the need for the creative process to grow and build instead of the old formulaic approach of having a clear series direction by the conclusion of S01E01. -
@AnneRiceAuthor : Jan 4th, 5th & 7th
"Have any of you watched the series Dollhouse? I'm deep into it now, and marveling at the ingenuity of the plots and the high production values. Please don't tell me what happens! Just whether you thought it was good."
"Many of you complained about the cancellation of Dollhouse. I am with you on the frustrations of cancellations. I seldom watch any new show on network or cable because once I get into it, it may be cancelled. I go for the DVD packages so I know what I'm getting. Do the mega powers defeat themselves in cancelling as they do?"
"Finished watching the first season of Dollhouse and truly enjoyed it, principally because of the highly imaginative plots, and the complex characters. Then moved on to Firefly."
And thus, another Whedonite was born :) -
All the way down.
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Boyd was an ex-cop, wasn't he? And Caroline was an animal rights nut, wasn't she? Been loving the last few months of DH but COME ON with the recons....
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After all we've seen, why would you still hold on to the idea that those back stories are true?
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Do you really think reveals as crazy as this weren't planned from the beginning. This show has been one big mind fuck from beginning to end. And I'm so tired of reading poster after poster about how Fox fucked the show up, or Joss fucked the show up. Stop complaining about 'why the show failed' and enjoy these amazing episodes we're getting. I literally gasped and jumped out of my seat at this episode. Fucking brilliant. Can't wait to watch the entire show all over again.
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Nothing is as it seems. Damn straight.
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I'm glad I'm alone in the house on Fri nights cuz my reaction to that reveal was not quiet! WHOA! I have so many questions now, mainly about Boyd and Claire...since he's the head honcho, has he just used her, or does he care? Does she know who he really is and joined his side of her free will, or is this all just sleeper programming now? And what's his endgame with Caroline, even if it won't actually lead to what he envisioned? I can't wait for more!!!! Gah, awesome. Poor dead Bennett. She and Topher were really cute in their weird genius damaged love. Ouch for Echo on losing her connection with Paul. He's back to focused on Mellie. Can't wait to see how Caroline and Echo meet up in the same brain.
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Best show he's been a part of.
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Thanks for the *Spoiler* alert...!!
I guess I was seduced by reading all the other talkbacks since I found this site, where people had the sense to warn for a spoileriffic comment , or the tact to be vague ....MEEEEH!!!!(my bad for being here):(
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I'm kind of glad they canceled the show , only because it's made everything go up a gear, and cut out the crap...They pimp
show's for waaaay to long . BSG should have been 3 seasons , and David Tennant should have buggered off a year before he did as Doctor Who ....Why the fuck do we need's 8 shit seasons of rehashed 24 shite anyway ?
Lost is another good example , I love it, but they stretched it to long and "lost"(sorry) most of the audience in the process ... -
fucking fox
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I can't believe how much they moved the plot forward in just an hour. Tight, taut and shocking as all hell.
Bennet getting a bullet was, I thought, untoppable in it's shock value. But Boyd stepping out of the dark topped it.
Fucking amazing. Maybe my favourite episode of the show so far. -
In the case for Caroline, she was a animal rights groupie in college but the discovery of what she found lead to going to Tucson meeting and befriending Bennett.
As for Boyd you got me. I feel I just got the rug pulled from me. And the explanation with the drowsiness and Claire then the end. The only way I could explain that in cannon is that is that he was recommended by top brass. Given they get folk from NSA and FBI then just a cop?
Awesome ep. -
The "sudden death" thing is getting a little old. It was a genuine surprise on Buffy, sort of annoying in Serenity, and just ridiculous in Dr. Horrible. I wonder if Joss Whedon saw To Live and Die in L.A. at an impressionable time in his life. And they better do a really good explanation for Boyd in the next two episodes, or it'll seem like a kid rushing to finish the last five pages of his term paper in an hour (which, arguably, is what they're doing.)
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but I think that was the point. This episode was fucking crazy. But in a good way.
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in the shootout scene. Which makes the Epitaph 1 scene (which was a cool insert BTW) a bit more sinister. Thinking about what his motives could be makes my head hurt. Who'd have thought Dollhouse would become one of the most complex shows on TV?
The only bit that was a bit daft about this one was Mr Dominic showing up in the stairwell. Er what?! I didn't think the Attic was even the same building?! So he walkedc through LA dressed like that...only to collapse when he saw Echo? That was a bit naff...but I'll forgive it because they only have like 2 eps left to get the story done.
I also realise I've used quite a few question marks in this post but...well, someone has to keep the quota up if Sir Bullshitsalot isn't making an appearance. Right????? -
...crush on you, even when I thought you were a dude!!!Great writing on that episode. A lot of skilled clean-up on, and for, past episodes that were void of smart writing and good character set-up, of course, I am talking about the first of last night's episodes which I just saw on Hulu. I haven't seen the second yet, as they haven't uploaded it? Nice work, and many great twists, however, Summer Glau's character's demise was wholly unnecessary, as her issues with Echo were never fully resolved. I think they should have made them lovers. It was implied that there was an interest, so I think they should have followed it through to completion instead of pulling their punches. Killing-off Glau's character strikes me as a shock value moment, one that was, again, unnecessary, I mean, why not kill-off Topher too, unless, they, the villains, have plans for him, or maybe he is in with the bad guys? Nice twist on Boyd though, I didn't see that one coming, or the fact that even Caroline is a doll, but you see how better this show plays by establishing protagonists, and antagonists, as I had suggested? It just pops better, and makes the show thrilling, something that was just not there when that dynamic was absent.
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With all due respect to Joss- I love virtually all his work and he is head and shoulders above most other TV directors/creators- he really needs to NOT FUCKING ROLL OVER every time the network says "Boo" to him. Fox fucked with the continuity of Firefly, and did it again with Dollhouse. In the latter case, it really wrecked the show during the critical time it needed to gather a significant following. Joss has no one to blame but himself this time. Next time grow a pair and sign with a network which will allow you your vision. They do exist.
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there was only one episode last night. Caroline is not a doll. Topher can't be killed because he's in Epitaph 1. As the tipping point for Topher's breakdown, I thought killing of Summer Glau was perfect.
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Although there was that strange - but awesome- cut during the shoot out to Adelle looking all, "My word, that's interesting." I just assumed one of Ambrose's guards shot him but...what if someone else shot him before he even went into Adelle's office? I mean, because of the lack of establishing shots, time frames on this show are meaningless.
As for Dominic, I would assume that because Echo & the others somewhat mastered the Attic (which why would you think is in another building and not just below where all the other stuff is?), I would think that they put a loophole in for Dominic to pass on information that they needed or for him to escape if needed. My impression was that he escaped to tell them Clyde was dead but because he had been in there so long his body was not adjusting well to being outside of it. Hence why Adelle sent him back. -
that completely sums up my feelings on these last two remaining episodes that I wanted to share:
"In full disclosure, I'm fully prepared for next week's explaination to be logical but not plausible based on what we've seen. Whedon had a series planned for 5 years condensed into 26 episodes so stuff that may have come off smooth may lead to a giant, "Damn that's coincidental." "
That really is the best way to put things at this point. I have no doubt that things will be overlooked - they are already being overshadowed. Last night, Echo & Ballard finally got every doll released and back out into the world but instead of it being the big emotional send off it should have been, it was just, "Bye Rick Fox!!" -
it just wasn't. it was obvious one of the main characters would end up being the head honcho and it made sense for it to be him so i wasn't at all suprised. Summer's death was a nice shock though, so now she's been cancelled by Fox 3 times, 4 if you count being killed. she must love them ever so much. :P
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he can't be a doll. Because the mind-wipe gizmo didn't work on him AND he went all crazy in that drugs-on-campus episode in season one. So presumably that means he's been lying from the very beginning...so I just don't see how they'll make it work. But I'm sure they will.
As for shooting himself, they seemed to make a point of showing that neither of the guards managed to pull their guns before getting shot. And it did provide him with a great cover story. I get what you're saying Buffywrestling, about the fast-forwarded plot causing things to be glossed over, but I prefer it this way (at least we get a proper resolution) than the season just ending on a cliffhanger. Oh yeah, did I mention that Dollhouse is awesome? -
is: just how evil is Boyd? I'm leaning towards Saunders not being a sleeper at all but Boyd using her for his bigger purpose - which we haven't seen yet - and Prime!Caroline being in cahoots with him. Boyd being head of a the Rossum Corproration doesn't necessairly mean the tech that they developed hasn't gotten away from him and he's not trying to subvert it. Course I like Boyd, so I don't want him to turn into a mustasche twirling charicture.
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Dolls become Cylons? Makes more sense than the last ep of BSG :-)
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However, Boyd did use the control phrase when he approuched Caroline and touched her face in the last seen. Thanks for clearing-up my confusion about Topher, but still, I think Eliza and Summer Glau's characters should have been lovers, I think it would have added an extra dimension of depth to the reason behind Glau's anger. I also think they should have written in a story point that their relationship lasted for some months, or longer, in order to make things more weighty when Glau finds out that Caroline has been using her. All in all, that was the greatest episode since "Man On The Street"
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I hope you're right. I don't want to see him turned into a stereotypical villain either. I'd also like an interview with Whedon stating whether he REALLY had this twist planned from the beginning.
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It could have been a phony squib--fixed with a rubber bladder, one filled with fake blood, that he triggered to go off on cue, giving him the excuse to leave and be elsewhere, where he needed to be.
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that was pretty much on the surface. I do like how just a few lines a moment later changed the tenor of that flashback where Caroline "abandons" Bennett. That despite the arm thing, she was trying to save her. And yeah, I gasped when the trigger was pulled. Looking back on it, it was like a Joss joke. Topher actually discovered love and Saunders acknowledged it. So of course, Bennett must DIE. And I'm so curious about what the endgame with Boyd and Saunders is. It can't just be that Boyd is a big bad. Want last two episodes NOW.
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goodbye dollhouse.
firefly it aint. time wont be kind to dollhouse, it will be forgotten. -
"summer and eliza should have been lovers" comments like that are prime examples of the stupidity on AICN. and then trying to justify the lesbian fantasy in your mind u try to make it sound logical, like it would have helped the plot, when actually it was only helping u jack ur 2incher. back on subject i gotta try to find epitaph 1 online somewhere or i think the last episode will be confusing to me...also the killing of bennett, and the reveal of boyd as a rossum "partner" were absolute surprises. anyone that says theyre not are trying too hard to seem smarter than everyone else...guess what ?? your not losers
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youre not smarter, losers.
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Then it wouldn't have sucked so much.
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avatar didnt suck, it just wasnt an original story.
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i think boyd faked the wound since he knew the guys were there and they didnt draw their guns. also doubt claire a sleeper, just prob still crazy mad at topher... and i knew we couldnt trust boyd after he played such a douche in matrix..but he is the 1st badass big bad guy in whedonverse (of course willow was the 1st badass big bad girl). im just thinkin he will be a justified baddie since tech caroline was the 1 breakin into building, destroy thier stuff, and for givin that guard blue balls lol. damn ill miss topher, adelle, and boyd...and victors actin... and amy acker lookin crazy sexy... and the dialogue... damn just the show entirely
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They really ought to air Epilogue 1 before they air Epilogue 2. BTW, although I had suspicions about Boyd for sometime and The Attic really confirmed them...and this episode just kept pointing that way until the reveal, I wasn't disappointed with the reveal at all. Very good ep all around.
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so, does it look like they are going to be able to tie up loose ends? if not, i'm not going to watch it to save myself the anger that alot of you (rightfully so, it seems) have for not getting to see how it all pans out.At risk of starting a heated arguement, i want to ask if the group of you guys who are angry that T:SCC was cancelled in favor of dollhouse--is that still the case? T:SCC had such an incredible ending and it still stings not knowing what they were going to do with it... terminator, as it exists today, is interesting to me because of the mythology--the show had tons of that and the movie had so little of it, which was a giant disappointment.
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i went back to my bookshelf and started to re-read 'The Writer's Journey.' Its a more writer-centered take on campbell's 'hero with a thousand faces / the power of myth.' I know you're not a big reader, but if you're an aspiring screenwriter, it is seriously right up your ally.
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You know, I was a big time supporter of the series, but about the time of Shirly Manson's introduction, I began to drift away. I watched the ending episode only and it was intriguing, and perhaps, I will go back and fill in the gaps. Sadly, I had zero interest in the film, it looked shite from the get go, and occasionally, I do listen to my intuition and it's on the money- occasionally. From the fact that they marketed a fricking toy line to kids, PG13-ed it(I don't give a rats ass if there is a R-rated version available, durh, fuck that stunt shit- there, now I'm R-rated too!) and had Mc G as the artistic head all were clear warning signs to me that they had a wrong-headed approach on the series. Despite its faults, The Sarah Connor Chronicles was a far smarter take on the material, and you know how that fares with FOX...
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Jimmy Carter says Joss is racist for having a black man as the Big Bad.
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Okay, I'll admit it, even though I am highly aware of Occam's Razor, especially when it comes to television writing, or hell, any medium really, if you have a small pool of characters, and no one new has been significantly introduced, then the hidden big bad has to be one of the principals. Claire's actions didn't surprise me as much as the Boyd reveal... Though, will someone chime in, was there other tech mentioned,beyond "being a doll", that allowed for transference of personality? I vaguely recall something, but I'm not sure...
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I really should read more, but it seems like I have very little time, but I will do that, it can only serve to improve me.
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Fox never paid for the rights to broadcast Epitaph One. And one reference to other tech was when Adelle said how a senior Rossum guy would never limit himself to one body. Though this is just one of the many ways the doll tech can be used.
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Jan 09, 2010 5:08:05 PM CST
Slkboxrman: They Strongly Implied That They Were Both Would-Be..
by media messiah
...lesbians, and both characters flirted rather openly. Summer's character wanted a relationship, and Eliza said, more, or less, that--as for herself, that she is a bi-sexual. I wasn't looking for a lesbian fantasy, because I am tired of the over use of it...lesbianism, in popular media these days, as just about every woman is claiming, or hinting, that she is gay or bi-sexual, and that is boring when played as a gimmick, or to just get attention. But, that said, if the characters are gay or bi-sexual, and gay and bi-sexual people do exist in the real world, mind you, then it should have been played out, not for the lesbian issue, but for the human issue of romantic relationships and falling in love, which would have added to the drama in regard to what makes a person do, when they feel they have been betrayed by a lover. It can make you temporarily insane, or close to it! That is what I meant by it adding a weighty dynamic, or dimension, to the characters and the story--if played out on screen. It would have given Glau's character more reason to be at odds with Caroline. The way things were left, there was no real justification for her wanting to kill Caroline...or wanting to see her suffer, as Caroline explained her own actions away by basically saying she was leaving her friend so she, Glau could get needed medical help, and Caroline knew that she would ultimately get caught for the break-in, and take the blame away from Glau's shared culpablity.Now, if you are in the shoe's of Summer's character, and you have that knowledge, you surely wouldn't want to kill or punish your best and only friend, who through an act of personal self sacrifice, was trying to save you--now would you? They should have introduced a third character who Caroline explains her actions to, leaving Glau's character ignorant of the facts as to why she left her. Add to that, a love relationship dynamic, and you would fully understand her hate for Caroline. This is why it is a shame that they killed off Glau's character...for shock value, before the two characters could share more screen-time, and we could delve deeper into their story arc. It was a perfect waste of a good character! Every time they introduce lesbian lovers in a series or a movie, one of them has to die, as if to show that that they are sinners and one, or both, of them...have to pay for it.
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As far as her character's motivation goes for hating Caroline, it does seem contrary to logic, unless there is some more to it that has yet to be revealed...
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http://tinyurl.com/yzsbhcf
Going to read; brb -
given her background. Nerdy reclusive types who throw themselves into deep research and lack the social skills that others take for granted, can swing to extremes when it comes to inter-personal relationships. It wouldn't be surprising if Bennet wasn't gay, but would have been willing to sleep with Caroline just to keep her friendship. She was needy to the extreme. And people like that don't deal with rejection very well. Think normal teenage girl throwing herself on the bed screming "I HATE HIM!". Of course, normally girls outgrow that sort of thing. Bennet very likely didn't.
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There are specific personality disorders, such as borderline, which exhibit those same traits. Dang, I can't wait the next shows, and even though I'm liking it, it seems a little rushed. But seriously, Joss needs to either go in with new partners, backers that understand him, or seriously plan on only having one season shows(2nd season DH is a wonder at all)!!!
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So far, it's good! I wondered myself why they felt they HAD to dump Caroline in her old body.
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deals with a lot of those pesky "Boyd, NO!" questions...
http://tinyurl.com/yfb8h99 -
I got a bit side tracked - per usual - but I did notice that it is 82 pages long. Which means if the one page = one minute formula still works, is that *A LOT* of stuff got cut for broadcast.
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And even though Bennet was clearly a high achieving genius, she was still prey to this emotional/personality disorder and failed to recognise it in herself.
I wasn't surprised that her memory of the betrayal didn't reflect what actually happened. People like that are quite capable of selectively filtering the way they see the world. (A less serious, but hilarious example was in SouthPark's episode where Cartman becomes increasingly convinced he wrote the gay fish joke.)
Of course the show feels rushed now. So did Babylon 5 season 4 when they thought that was going to be the final year. -
are talking about someone else...put I can't put my finger on who??
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I'm in the camp that she was either a sleeper or in collusion with Boyd, because she shot Bennett only after asking how likely it was that she could fix Caroline's wedge. Seems to me Claire was trying to protect Boyd's cover, either consciously or because of programming. "I used to be number one" or whatever she said indicated she did this to please Boyd. p.s. @slkboxrman: Epitath One *is* online, at iTunes for $2.
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that's just the way it's formatted on the website. It's 49 pages.
So far, (I'm about half way through) only lines have been cut. Or changed. And some of the lines are better in the script. Like the goodbye for Victor/Sierra. I wonder if they were changed for a future plotting reason, or just a matter of taste? I guess we may find out in 2 weeks. -
No scenes were dropped. I will say this... I always thought Adelle was a bad-ass and a hell of a strategist, but she is so much better on the page. That's a not a comment on Olivia's performance. Rather, most of Adelle's best moments don't make the screen.
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The Boyd reveal could make or break this show. I really hope they don't throw it all way by making him an unconvincing or even worse a cliched villain.
Looking back on the previous eps, other than that bit in the Attic, there is absolutely no clue that he could be the bad guy. I hope they have some mind-blowing explanation planned. -
...not the other way around.
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...shared flirting between, Bennett and Caroline, Bennett still, was the one who put it out there in the first place, and often looked at Caroline with sexually adoring glances. She was never in the place of being the one who was receiving sexual advances, she, however, was the one who was issuing them.
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...duration to read, so for an hour long TV series, a script would be between 43 and 45 pages, which would translate to 43 to 45 minutes of actual air time, and the rest of the hour running time, the 15 to 17 minute remainder, goes to commercial time.
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...so they probably condensed the script via the final edit of the video master.
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dudes, splurge on the $1.99 already and buy it from iTunes. Sheesh.
@ Media Messiah- I think you are projecting your fantasies... you know, the way pedos always think that 5 year old is trying to seduce them. I saw no overt flirtation between Caroline and Bennett- other than that which girls always do with each other. -
I thought they were leading up to airing the Epitaph 1 But now I don't know what is going on.
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When Caroline finds the scalped active, one of them sings Verdi's "Rigoletto" where a father, due to his machinations, gets his daughter killed after he gets her to go undercover for him. http://tinyurl.com/da5uhg
One of the other active speaks a german phrase which I babelfished and it brought me to this page:
http://tinyurl.com/yl5njhg
Check the name. I almost died :P -
...but they were heavily flirting, alright. Hell, if one of them was a guy, they would have been having sex already!!!
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...consummating the relationship was the infamous "Lesbian Bed Death" that seems to always haunt women (meaning, talking too much, and not putting words into action)...and the writers of the show not having any courage or backbone other than to kill one of them off, of course???!!! Why is violence so greatly tolerated over sex in this society???? They have it all backwards? A real crying shame!
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...for some unexplained reason?
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Jan 09, 2010 10:47:54 PM CST
So, um, I re-watched this again~nice catches Buffywrestling!
by tomonicker
And I distinctly count three shots, and I see that none of the dudes had time to pop Boyd, so where did this magic bullet come from and why didn't Adelle notice? Also, since I watched it on the DVR instead of Hulu, I caught the promo, I saw Echo fighting some chick who sorta resembles Bennett but even in freeze frame, I couldn't tell... Whiskey? Durh.
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it seems nobody is going to dignify your post about the should-have-been lesbians. Your argument was that you think you saw the potential for a lesbian romance. ok, that's how you see it, that's our analysis. but then in the next paragraph, you make a critique--which is that there should have been a third character to work the lesibian relationship into the show. that's not a critique of the show, its an analysis and a supporting analysis, both existing only in your mind?
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I buy V'Shael's argument about Bennett far more... People with boundary issues will be more likely open to inappropriate sexual conduct if they think it will please the one they are fixated on, but they are also more childlike and volatile in rejection.
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The women Echo is facing off with in the promo is Claire. Amazing episode, but sadly disappointed this is the last season. Didn't care much for the 'prostitution' aspect...to many episodes spent focusing on the abusive use of the tech opposed to exploring the mystery of Rossum. Sure, many of those personalities would ultimately become echo, but did we really need the back-up singer epi or the blind girl story...first season could have been tighter.
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It seems the nature of the beast of television writing, and the big hurdle that shows of this type run into again and again; how much to water down the koolaide so we can keep it going at pace to prolong the mystery and milk the success, if there is some to be had. And, yeah, Occam's Razor, it has to be Whiskey... heh, heh. I am curious to who the whole Alpha business fits in, and this whole Boyd angle opens up more cans of worms as well! What's left, just two episodes? Sheesh!
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His docile partner isn't so docile anymore (or maybe just going ahead and not caring about the inevidable zombieland future, Boyd become an obstacle) and he's trying to stop him. So he's just a little bit evil at this point, trying to stop Rossum. Of course, I don't see how Boyd could just drop into the role of handler in that case, so I'm probably totally wrong. Maybe he just somehow knew that Echo would be his grand experiment and he wanted to handle her personally (no pun intended).
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if he is somehow responsible for Carolines weird brain which can fight the wipes and retain imprints.
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from the script: "Boyd takes in a ragged breath. BLOOD is BLOOMING on his
side, through his shirt. One of the bad guys got one off
before getting it." It's possible that the way it plays on screen is a mis-direct but it's more likely to be a playback error.
I think Boyd's first attempt at composition was probably Alpha because he joined the Dollhouse right after that experiment failed. Making Echo is his second attempt.
I also note about that "Special Relativity" page I linked to refers to two different timelines, E1 & E2. A little more googling found me at the phrase regarding Special Relativity "where one observer may observe an event to precede another, while another observer may observe a different order of the events." That fits in nicely with the intercut E1 scene in this episode. -
...that aforementioned information via a voice over narration, as opposed to adding a third party to the action, to convey said information (to), but no matter the circumstance, it should have been said in some way, so that we, the audience, knew why she, Caroline, was doing what she did, and Bennett did not know, as it is the only thing--the not knowing, that is, in respect to the truth of Caroline's motivations for leaving her, the only thing that could justify Bennett's anger against Caroline. And yes, there was a strong lesbianism flirtation shared by Bennett and Caroline. The last time I saw such a thing, on Whedon series, and spoke about it, people also said that I was just seeing things, and that was when I was watching "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer", that is, when I mentioned to folks--on the net BTW, that I was more than certain that Tera was flirting with Willow, and Willow was flirting back. Well, I had to wait for months, until the next season of Buffy, but I was ultimately proven correct. Here, maybe that will happen, a big reveal of some sort in that respect, coming in the last remaining two episodes of Dollhouse, or maybe it won't, but I am more than certain that Joss Whedon will be asked about Bennett and Caroline in interviews, and he will confirm the lesbian flirtation between the two.
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I am guessing, as I have said all along, that the Dollhouse emerged from story threads that Joss wanted to explore with, and in, Firefly/Serenity but could not due to the cancellation of the series, and the failure of Universal to green-light a sequel to Serenity. Re-purposed and repackaged as Dollhouse, the story threads and character arcs work as so: Caroline/Echo is following the path of River Tam, or what we would have seen her experience in some regard, and Boyd is following the path of Book, who would have been revealed to be an Operative, or as a big player in the Blue Sun Corporation. Anyway, it would be fun for all the fans, if they ended the show by revealing that the Rossum Corporation ultimately becomes the Blue Sun Corporation, in the future...and some how, that Bennett is related to River Tam. That would be the ultimate gift to fans, and the biggest twist they could deliver with the show ending, exactly where Serenity begins, in a Dollhouse, but in the far off future, as River's brother rescues her.
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For one thing her name was Tara not Tera.
For another thing her first appearance was in Hush (S4E10), the exact same episode it was made BLINDINGLY FUCKING OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WITH EYES that they would be developing a full relationshop together, which was then confirmed several episodes after that in the same season. You didn't wait "months" until the "next season" to be proven right, and you were in no fucking way ahead of the game or seeing things other people weren't.
FOR FUCK'S SAKE WILL YOU JUST STOP TALKING SHIT! -
...sorry for the misspelling, but it happens, regardless, you and I both know which character that I am talking about, so the point is mute there. Secondly, Joss Whedon was not so certain if Tara and Willow were gay or not, nor was he sure if he was going to go there, or if the network would allow it, in fact, all he said was, is that the fans, me being one of them, were noticing things that were perhaps there, but not necessarily there, in regard to lesbian nuances being reflected by the characters, so Joss wasn't even sure, at the time--what was going to be. Joss said this in an interview, so I was months ahead of the game...because that interview popped-up before the end of the season, and before the start of the new one. You are just upset that I said I called it. I did, just like many other fans did, whom I was unaware of, until I read the interview that Joss gave, and I think a few internet musings by other fans, just prior to said interview. This didn't happen in a vacuum, and if I gave that impression, sorry again, but Joss said that he, and his staff, had not been seeing the same things the fans had, in terms of the characters, and that things sort of just went that way, or seemed to? Whether he was telling the truth or misleading the reporter, who knows? Might point is, however, that the foreshadowing was there, as it is/was...with Bennett and Caroline. Why they pulled their punches, who knows, or perhaps there is something yet to be revealed?
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Look at the way Tara is looking at her in her very first scene! The evident sexual energy that is there when they join hands to move the vending machine! Consider the fact that wicca is so stronly linked in people's minds (rightly or wrongly) to lesbianism and female power! The fact that Joss had a backdoor to get out of it if the network weren't willing to go along with it does not mean this wasn't intended and not foreshadowed.
The relationship became sexual in "The I In Team" (S4E13), three weeks after they met! You're still talking about "months" that you knew before the rest of us did! Go back and fucking watch it properly. And anyone advocating that Caroline / Bennett should have been a sexual relationship for anything other than masturbatory reasons is a knob -end and certainly not someone who should regularly go on about how much they know about storytelling. -
I love cursing, especially hearing, or reading, others curse; the F- Word being my favorite. It can be so...animalistic!!! But when you think about it, it is the silliest of curse words, as it only means, Fornication. Under. Crown. Of King. So please continue your curse filled attacks against me--I don't mind playing the martyr. And BTW, "Shit" means...bowel movement, or the resulting aftermath, there of. The action of the word...being a verb, of course, and the noun...being the manifestation of said act. As you can see, it is very boring when you breakdown the structural true meaning of said words, but don't let me interrupt you--please, continue. BTW, I learned my Verbs and Nouns from Schoolhouse Rock! It comes in handy, in dealing with nitwits, such as yourself, as you can see? FYI, dyslexics, although very bad spellers, are also known to be geniuses. You don't want to Fornication Under Crown of King... with us, or you might just get your bowel movement handed to you. Good night, now! Smile.
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FUCK doesn't mean Fornication Under Consent of the King, or command of the King, or Crown of the King. It doesn't come from the german plane the Fokker,or the German "fikken" or the Dutch "fokken"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck#False_etymologies
Mind you, spreading falsehoods is something of a hobby for some people.
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Now that I've pointed out that you're full of FUCKING SHIT.
Dyslexics are geniuses are they? Where's the proof? What a retarded thing to say. Right now you're giving me some compelling evidence says they are most certainly not. -
Media Messiah can give you a list of famous people who were dyslexics and successful, as long as your arm. Same for college drop outs. He mistakes correlation for causation and wonders why he isn't successful yet, when clearly he's an unsung genius.
You can make your point to him, and he'll ignore it. If you swear, he'll happily pounce on it and claim moral and intellectual superiority, while still ignoring your point. If pushed, he'll claim he's being attacked and give plenty of reasons why he's being attacked. None of them will be based in reality or anywhere close to it.
Whether he's deliberately trolling or not is irrelevant at this point. His behaviour is definitely trollish, and it's best not to engage if you're just likely to burst a blood vessel when dealing with that level of idiocy. -
I know :) sometimes it's just kinda fun to give someone who deserves it a torrent of abuse and I come on here occasionally and he's...well he's just kind of asking for it!
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I've never believed it is a sign of a smaller intellect, in my case, when I'm swearing it just tends to mean I'm feeling passionate about something. Swearing is fucking awesome! Amy Acker, it has been said on many occasions, has got "a mouth like a sailor" - this fact has never led me to believe she's less intelligent in my estimation, but it certainly does manage to make her even sexier.
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I say this cos I had an idea that Echo is meant to be the cure for the imprints in the same way that Biocyte (sic?) created Chimera so that when they brought out the cure, Belleraphon, they would make trillions.
Boyd says to Caroline at the end that she will never be like the "others". Also he has always shown distaste towards the dolls, as they are only the disease (allbeit a profitable one) that they are making the cure for.
It worries me that the other partner acted like Topher and was only a doll. Could Topher be the other partner and if so did Rossum start out as bad as they became?
In the end will Echo's homecoming to the hq of Rossum be like Neo's return as the one in Matrix Revolutions?
Just my thoughts. Another one of my thoughts - was it just me or did Adele look really hot with long hair and that coat in the flashback with Caroline?
F -
but from what we've seen so far, I don't think money is Boyd's motivation considering the capital they make from 23 Dollhouses all over the world. I kinda think Boyd's trying to pull a "Valkyrie" type mission. I don't think he found the dolls distastful or a disease, considering what he profits from them but he has shown at least a disgust about how the actives are used on engagements (or at least, how Echo has been used on engagements). When thinking about the Boyd reveal, I'm also trying to keep it in the back of my mind that he saved Sierra from her rapist Handler, which if he was completely evil, he really didn't need to do.
During the first season and even part of the second, Topher was considered to be amoral while Boyd was the moral center of the show. It's quite surprising to me how they seemed to have switched roles completely. I don't think Boyd or Topher are dolls,imprints or anything else. I believe Senator Perrin is going to be the last reveal we have of that kind. -
really *was* a trap :P
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Almost as good as 'the point is moo' - what a cow would say. Can't remember where that was from. Further evidence that MM is an idiot. The point is MOOT. Not only was Tara obviously into Willow from the beginning, but we even see her as a background extra BEFORE Hush, putting up a Gay/Lesbian group banner or something like that in the dorm lounge. Joss and Co may not have known how far they'd take it, but they certainly knew they were teasing it. And also typical of MM, that he wants something better hinted at and make it glaringly obvious and cliche. Cause, you know, that's 'Writing 101.' Not one for the subtle, MM.
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"I'm reminded of the people who said, early on, that Dollhouse's biggest weakness was its characters. There was nobody to root for, nobody to care about, and no relationships to get sucked into. You definitely would not say that about Dollhouse now." Damn skippy.
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"this is one of those shows that will become legendary once the whole thing is out on DVD and you can watch all 26 episodes in a week or two. The half a dozen really bad episodes are going to fall into proportion, as part of a greater overall design."
take that, palewook. -
I think that for the most part, what you're quoting is correct. After 2 seasons of Dollhouse where we've seen the end result and final design that Joss really intended, everything makes sense.
That being said, I still think Joss could have dispensed with the earlier episodes where Eliza was running around, caught in situations where missions went wrong. Like the pop singer episode. Or the crazy mountain hunter episode. I don't believe that anyone could look at me straight in the face and tell me that those episodes were good, or necessary. Anything that those episodes contributed to the Dollhouse mythos had already been established by the hostage negotiation episode, and the blind zealot episode.
That being said, I've come to really like Dollhouse. Once the crappy episodes got out of the way (i.e. most of S1), things got pretty awesome pretty fast. I'm glad I stuck it out this long. -
that comes from Friends....its how Joey said it and that was his reasoning. lol
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Whether he reveals that it was indeed a obvious lesbian flirtation, or not?
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Jan 10, 2010 5:45:18 PM CST
Oisin5199: I Have Been The Most Vocal About The Characters...
by media messiah
...and the lack of anyone to root for on the show, as a hero/heroes, and a villian, or villains, you just love to hate, and yes, I am glad that they finally came around to fixing that. What we have now, is the show that Dollhouse should have been, from the beginning, something that I always pointed out--you need the classic hero/villain conflict to fuel a story arc. I just don't get why people like Buffywrestling hate me for pointing out this fact, when I did it for the betterment of the show?The original pilot, not shown on TV, was better than the one we saw, as aired by the network, I give it to Joss, and Ep 2 of Season One, was even better. Then we had to wait to get to "Man On The Street" which is the best of the series. I think after that, there were only 3 other good Season One Episodes, and "Epitaph One", which didn't air, was one of them. The first two episodes of Season 2...were lacking and slow, and did nothing to advance the characters, or reach out to explain the show to its audience, or to better attract a larger audience, a tremendous lost opportunity??? Then we got smatterings of good, and then greatness, from following episodes, and also some dumb stuff that just didn't work, like the latter, concerning the "Universal Soldier" riff...and the two Tophers, but the wealth of ths season has been far superior to last season, in terms of creating drama and internal/external conflict which serve to engage the audience, emotionally inthe onscreen drama. I'd say if we could cut-out the fat of this series, and ran it as a mini series using all the best episodes, you'd have about 8 strong shows that people would swear...amount to a truly great series. That is 8, out of 26 episode run...I think it is, refering to the latter number? Now, if they had fixed the problems early on it the series run...by making Caroline/Echo a self aware, self realized human being, by the end of episode one, and working to bring the Dollhouse down, as a mature adult mind,...with a continuing personality during and between missions, and an ongoing protagonist/antagonist conflict, this show would have been a huge hit.
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I was worried the new year would bring a renewed commitment to using his meds. Glad to see the insanity is still florid.
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Man that blows away the one that Joss went with in its place. Also its a testament to Enver's acting that I totally forgot that he was the guy who Ballard was leaning on for information about the dollhouse in the opening episode. In the back of my mind I remembered it as some russian dude lol. I am going to miss this show though I must admit watching Boyd in older episodes makes the latest turn of events real hard to swallow.
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...and still telling the truth, unlike you!!! My comments have always been consistent on the show, and have never waivered, however, all you do...is see the show without flaw, and your only opinion is on me? Hell, even Joss Whedon has said the show is flawed, and most of the fans, so if you are calling me insane, then you must think that of all of us are? Thank you for scoring another win for me. You are your own worst witness, and enemy. Cross-examination of the witness, over. I rest my case! Time for you to go to the prison of your own mind.
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I'd love for novels to be commissioned with Joss' approval to fill in what we won't get to see. sigh.... Yes, Echo is fighting Claire in the promo. Claire's holding a gun. According to the Angel cast, Amy easily fits in as one of the guys and definitely surprises people with swearing like a sailor cuz she looks so sweet. Amber Benson is like that, too. Optimus, I read the script for the original pilot months before the show premiered, and I really liked it a lot. I hope Joss has learned not to let FOX convince him they know best for his shows, and that he tries *any* other network if he ever does TV again. (I'm looking forward to the Dr. Horrible sequel)
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I know, I know....! Will make a point to get to it before E2 airs!
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Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not know what you type? One week you're extremely critical, saying that it's the worst show ever that Joss made every mistake possible. The next week you're saying it's the most excellent thing ever. If anything, you switch between your multiple personalities every week. And stop saying 'Joss says the show is flawed.' He did NOT say that. He said there was some problems communicating with the network and getting the balance right between standalones and arc episodes. But he did not say the show was 'flawed.'
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MM, i've thought long and hard about this, and have taken into account that there are some things you will never acknowledge, but i know your problem: You're too insecure. You try and try and try, so hard, to be validated, vindicated and respected. You care too much about 'calling it' or by saying things such as your 'challenges' to people to write better a synopsis or treatment or what have you ...Talkbacks are not a competition. its like trying to get non-athletes to play basketball with you one on one, and when nobody who wants to play, you use that as proof that you should have made the varsity team, instead of getting cut at try outs.
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Whedon pretty much said for this one, no movies, no comics, no more story. What we see is all that we get.
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of course, MM may have rubbed off on me a little, as what i said in my above post could very likely have been said by others on these talkbacks before, and my analysis had been pointed out months ago.I feel compelled to deny this or just ignore it all together, and shift to a new point by making a vague connection to warrior angels (because i'm anticipating LEGION but don't realize that's why i'm thinking about warrior angels)?
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Her acting was spot on in the unaired pilot. Seriously the unaired pilot blows away what they ended up going with to start the show off. Very stupid of Joss to let that happen without more of a fight.
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german phrase & opera singing:
"That version of the script is a bit different from what we did in that I changed the German to something, um, else. Other changes, like, "you wanna blow up a building?," I added on the set. And yeah -- opera singing/German speaking guy is Olivia's husband."
Tim Minear | January 10, 21:18 CET
So yeah, just a weird conincedance. Still freaked me out though :)
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I review the show for its consistency, or lack there of; and the show is largely inconsistent-- with varying degrees of quality, from episode to episode, and sometimes, from moment, to moment, in a single episode, something that I have always said. I review each episode fairly, and separately, and I also review tha series, overall, as a whole, as I did, for example, in my comments above. As I said, out of about 26 episodes, there are only 8 that I would say are good, or great, and 2 of them didn't even air on TV.
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Your analysis of me is fair, and spot on, but, that doesn't mean I was wrong, or am wrong. And yes, perhaps I am insecure, as most people are, in fact, I am, but that said, as an artist, I tend to always debate everything with others in the arts community, from art to religion, politics and sex, etc., even Angels, because when you do that, you learn where you are right, and where you are wrong, and sometimes, you just learn, and you find yourself in a state of being where there is no right or wrong--but certainly, it helps one to grow through the debate, whether you win or lose, or somewhere in between.
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Didn't freak out or tell anybody about Echo using past identities. Bad episode, but there was a needed nugget there.
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he's right here.
There was a definite lesbian vibe between Caroline and Bennett. Do I think it should have been consummated? No, but it was played that way to explain Bennett's motivations.
This show very well may be the unproduced Blue Sun plot from Firefly/Serenity. I actually have the beginnings of that same thought after watching this episode and reading the start of this talkback. Especially consider the opening scene in Serenity where Simon rescues River. Does that lab not have a Dollhouse feel to you?
Granted, these similarities could just be parallels between works between the same author, but it's an interesting thought none-the-less. -
I'm guessing I'm gonna have to rewatch this show sometime to develop a true appreciation of it. I just haven't been watching it deeply enough for that scene to have the impact it should have had. There seems to be a lot of good in these final episodes, but it's all to condensed to savor.
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A quick word about what you think of as the "lesbian" vibe between the two characters.
1) Caroline had a boyfriend in the past. (Let's not get into the whole "maybe she's bisexual" thing okay?)
2) We see Bennet act way more flirtatiously with Topher. And exploit him as a result.
3) As such, I think it makes far more sense that Bennet is simply socially awkward and fixated on the first person to ever take an interest in her.
I think most people would share that opinion.
And I think the ones who see lesbianism there, are also possibly not good at picking up the nuances of interpersonal relationships. (Just my two cents.)
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This show has been gripping since it was announced that it was being cancelled. How sad. Too bad it didn't start like this even though I was a loyal viewer. Can't wait to buy the dvd. Btw, the actor who plays Boyd needs to be on a new television series stat. That guy has real gravitas. 24?
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and it always had a hint that it was building to something but it was really tough to hold on for that first season. The cop on the outside bit never really worked, the hooker of the week storylines were generally poor.
I think there mistake was to try and tell a show that would run for multiple seasons. Tell a good story right from day one and forget about planning out multi season arcs. -
He was a human rights advocate who was was forced undercover in prison to nab a phone from suspected terrorists...from memory it was something like that!
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I've just rewatched S1 for the first time since it was on, on my shiny new Blu-Ray and have enjoyed it more than I thought I would, the second half of the season is superb, and the first half is better than I remember. HOWEVER I am really confused about some of the plotting and if anyone can help me get my head around it I would appreciate it. OK we know Dominic was sending Ballard information through Echo to help his own NSA-related mission (don't know what that end game would have been but we can leave that tied up in a little bow). We also know that Alpha was sending Ballard clues in envelopes leading him to Caroline and The Dollhouse - for whatever reason, he wanted Ballard to get him in (not totally sure why he couldn't do it alone though...but this is not what confuses me) and indeed Ballard comes to Alpha and helps him break in. Fine. But it wasn't Alpha that led Ballard to Alpha in the end was it? Ballard shadowed Mellie after she was picked up by a black van, rode around in their elevators etc and deduced it must be underground. From there he investigated money trails and closed environments, which led him to Steven Kepler. This doesn't make sense!? Was it a complete coincidence that Mellie happened to lead Ballard to Alpha at the same time Alpha was awaiting Ballard to come find him so they could break in together? Why didn't Alpha lead Ballard to Kepler in the first place? In fact, why had Alpha even substituted himself for Kepler? How did he know Ballard would follow Mellie which would in turn lead him to Kepler? I'm so confused. But all is forgiven when I hear "They're carrots...Medicinal carrots! Personal use medicinal carrots that were here when I moved in and I'm holding it for a friend!"
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We don't know that the message Echo gives Ballard in 'Man on the Street' was from Dominic, for all we know it could have been from Boyd(!). As for all the Alpha stuff, yes its a bit convoluted and probably doesn't make sense if examined too closely...maybe Alpha had hacked the Dollhouse computer system and through the CCTV in Ballard's apartment, knew when Ballard was getting close, and thats when he assumed Kepler's identity. I don't know. We'll probably never know.
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Thanks, just didn't know if I'd missed some line of dialogue or something...and you're right about the message too, I'd better undo that little bow!
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The entire point is that Bennett's awkwardness and issues led to a "lesbian" vibe between the two. Bennett was way too attached to Caroline. Come on, she wanted to be used by her. Their connection was extremely close and intimate, even moreso for Bennett.
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Completely agree. I assumed Bennett was a social outcast all her life and Caroline was the only person to acknowledge her as a person/friend. As for the unconnected dots, and unresolved plot holes, I hope Joss does a Daniel Knauf and provides the fans with an outline of how the story would have unfolded if it were not canceled.
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I think we ARE getting how the story would have unfolded. I can't imagine that if a season 3 were happening we would be getting the Boyd story now. Looking back on the last 6 episodes, I think basically since the '3 month jump' in episode 8 (?) Whedon and Co have been looking to complete the story by showing us what would have happened in seasons 3,4,5. Imagine how great the Victor military arc would have been if stretched over 4-5 episodes as a B-story (like the Ballard one last year). They didn't get the official nod they were cancelled until ep 11 but the writing must have been on the wall since the ratings came in (if not before). This way, sometimes it feels a bit rushed but I'd rather get to see the whole story on fast forward than just the next bit and then get extras from interviews, etc.
On a seperate point, how great would a 3rd season of Carnivale been?! I read it was gonna start with Jonesy pitching in a Major League game. -
...saw the Blue Sun Corporation connection. It is really nice to see River's story arc being played out by Caroline, if that is the case here...and Boyd, as Book?As per the lesbianism on Dollhouse, it was clearly talked about by Bennett and Caroline, and I don't understand why others are willfully denying it?
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that the fanfiction that they write in their heads is canon? kaithxbai.
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Are you high? Citation or quote please, or failing that, the new dictionary definiton of "Clearly".
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that they don't all lez out, right? :)
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but we do wash each others hair. Sometimes that gets a bit sexy. It's quite embarrassing when it happens at the salon though.
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That's all I'm saying!
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the one from Echo & the one from November/Mellie - to set up Ballard as his patsy to get him into the Dollhouse. I don't think Dominic sent any messages to Ballard at all.
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http://tinyurl.com/yde7jks
So they broke Boyd as half of Rossum going into the second season. Also, "And I shot Bennett in the head because it's funny." heh, classic :) -
calling of your bullshit. Quotes or new definition of "clearly".
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...I can probably buy that. If Alpha somehow put that bug thing in Topher's equipment (which would have required breaking in...wouldn't it? So why break in and put in place a way to allow yourself to break in?) then...and I'm trying to remember A Spy In The House Of Love specifics here...I don't think Dominic admitted the tech was his? There was no proof of that. So Topher found the bug which indirectly led to the discovery of Dominic as an NSA spy despite it being nothing to do with him? I'd still like to know how the thing got there. Fuck for all I know this is all explained on Friday, maybe Boyd has been in with Alpha from the start, I don't have any idea where this shit is gonna go! I don't want to overthink this but I hope it makes sense in the end! Detailed plots were never Whedon's strong point but there were scant times I thought his shows didn't make any sense within their own logic. And now I'm thinking of the intricately plotted Astonishing X-Men I'm wondering what I'm talking about. We shall see!
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only having been broke going into season 2. Still, BSG made the whole thing up as they went, as long as it kindah makes sense I'll roll with it.
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MAYBE (and its a big all in capitals MAYBE) there's a romantic interest with Bennett, but thats pushing it, but there is absolutely NOTHING on the part of Caroline to suggest a lesbian romance AT ALL. V'shael is right it was infatuation because she was ignored. Media Messiah is projecting his own version of Dollhouse onto the programme...again.
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BB - I'll have to go back & check (time frames on this show are hard to place at times) but I thought Dominic was responsible for the chip in the chair that was gathering intell but it was kind of a mis-direct because they didn't want the audience to know yet that Alpha had remote tech.
Goldie - No matter even if they started breaking the Boyd stuff after season 1, there are still going to be things that will have greater resonance because of the reveal. A lot of times writers will craft things that will lead to happy coincidences they never intended on. -
each others GPS chips: THAT was intentionally smexy. Two girls bonding over haircolor was not & completely misses the point of the scene.
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When I project something in regard to the story of Dollhouse, and what I think it should be, I say so, and very clearly, however, Bennett and Caroline were flirting with each other, and you can rewatch the episode on HULU for clarification--it will prove that I am correct. Gays and lesbians, as well as bi-sexuals have a right to be just that. I don't know why this is such a big deal to some? It is like some people here are hurt and upset to find-out that these two characters are gay or bi-sexual? You know, I am upset that there is in Santa Claus, but I'm dealing with it...and I don't fight the fact that Santa isn't real. I also know that some priests are liars, and some teachers sleep with their students, most couples cheat, etc. These are the realities of life, some bad, some good, and some indifferent. Now, as a member of the audience, I dislike when writers, or producers, of a show...introduce a plot point, and then drop it, which was my concern about the lesbian theme. Why bring it up, if you aren't going to complete the circle? That said, we have two episodes to go, and thus we really don't know yet if there will be further insight into the lesbian flirtation that was shown on the show? BTW, in a world where things aren't always what they seem, it is good to know that the Great Pumpkin does exist! (many tears of joy, falling down my rosy cheeks)
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When I project something in regard to the story of Dollhouse, and what I think it should be, I say so, and very clearly, however, Bennett and Caroline were flirting with each other, and you can rewatch the episode on HULU for clarification--it will prove that I am correct. Gays and lesbians, as well as bi-sexuals have a right to be just that. I don't know why this is such a big deal to some? It is like some people here are hurt and upset to find-out that these two characters are gay or bi-sexual? You know, I am upset that there really is no Santa Claus, but I'm dealing with it, as best I can, and I don't fight the fact that Santa isn't real. I also know that some priests are liars, and some teachers sleep with their students, some doctors are not very good, some middle-class parents smoke weed, most couples cheat, so-called straight laced people can like porn, and some porn stars hate porn, etc. These are the realities of life, some bad, some good, and some indifferent.
Now, as a member of the audience, I dislike when writers, or producers, of a show...introduce a plot point, and then drop it, which was my concern about the lesbian theme. Why bring it up, if you aren't going to complete the circle? That said, we have two episodes to go, and thus we really don't know yet if there will be further insight into the lesbian flirtation that was shown on the show? BTW, in a world where things aren't always what they seem, it is good to know that the Great Pumpkin really does exist! (many tears of joy, falling down my rosy cheeks) -
OK, if you want another POV, my wife and I thought there seemed like there was at least flirting/unrequited interest going on, but really, there are bigger things left dangling from that story that I believe people would like to see full disclosure/reveal on. They gave you enough information to take Bennett's support of Caroline's radical ways plausible. Personally, I'm a little more preoccupied with the need for them to explain Boyd. That could make or break the whole concept for me. They are trying to cram 3 years of plot development into 3 episodes, after all. Something has to go. Honestly, I suspect a lot of the Victor/Sierra relationship ended up in the trashbin as a result of the premature end of the series, and that's too bad since I think we as viewers generally had more invested in that. But, if at the end of the day, I can look back at the series and the biggest plot point I felt failed to be "brought full circle" was the ambiguity in the Bennett-Caroline relationship, I'll be pretty happy. If the show fails to address your need for closure, though, I suggest you go to ComicCon or the like and ask Joss yourself.
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...but I am pointing to Bennett's motives for wanting to torture and kill Caroline. So far, her motive isn't good enough. Once Caroline explained that she was leaving Bennett in order to sacrifice herself in order to save her (again, Bennett), that completely absolved Caroline from being the bad guy, in fact, it should have made Bennett love and respect her all the more, not wish to kill her? This is the reason why I felt it was important to open-up the relationship to show a deeper nature to it, as spurned lovers tend to have a motive to wish revenge against those who have hurt them. We needed to see that, and we needed Bennett in a place where she did not know Caroline's true motives for leaving her. In that way, Bennett would have had reason to hate her, although it would have been mistaken reason, thus, this is why Bennett should have survived...to play this out with Caroline, in order to discover her, the latter's self sacrifice, completing the circle of this story point. They could have killed Bennett after that point was made, and she knew...once and for all, that Caroline left her out of love, and that she has now moved on with her handler, hence allowing Bennett to move on with Topher. If she was killed then, if would have made more sense, and filled in a hole in the story that needn't be there.
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I take it you're not a fan of tragedy, then? :-) Plenty people (with more emotional stability than Bennett seemed to have) misinterpret good intentions all the time. IMHO, it's not a stretch to accept that without having it all spelled out so explicitly. Two things seemed obvious: Bennett was fixated on Caroline (in whatever way) and Bennett wanted to be needed by Caroline, even at her own peril. It seemed clear that Bennett didn't want to be disposed of. She wanted to stand with Caroline in solidarity. Caroline walked away, rejecting this loyalty, and Bennett resented that. I don't think there was a misunderstanding. I don't think she failed to hear Caroline's reasoning. I think Caroline failed to hear hers. Bennett didn't want to be abandoned by Caroline. End of story. They didn't need to be lovers for this to play out as it did. But for argument's sake, let's just say she *was* involved with Caroline: resolving her "romantic arc" simultaneously (even though it was in flashbacks) with showing the blossoming romance with Topher would've been somewhat muddled. You got her forgiving Caroline, her having to resolve her feelings for Caroline in light of her feelings for Topher. Having Topher come to terms with it, too, perhaps. Again, under the circumstances of having to do 3 years in 3 hours, I can see why Whedon put a bullet in it (literally). But even at that the best of times... having a couple live to discover peace and closure? It ain't the Whedon way. What was that Whedon quote? Something like, "people like a happy ending. So, every day I try to show that I don't like people."
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...not all of them, mind you, hell, like Whedon, I find most people to be unlikeable, with good reason, but there are some special people who deserve to be liked/loved. And no, I'm not a fan of tragedy, as there is just too much of it, in the real world, and in fiction.
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and yes, most real life is tragic also. But The Wire has its roots in Greek Tragedy and is all the better for it. I love the harsh, almost nihilistic streak to Whedon's work. Wash dying in Serenity was brutal. But in a good way.
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...shoots one's wad before it should, or needs to be, shot.
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Haven't they previously made suggestions that human cloning exists in the Dollhouse world? If so, they could just grab a spare and imprint a backup.
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cloning exists.
They've also given us no indication that Bennett ever took a personal backup.
I will grant you though, that if I was working with tech like that, I'd be taking (and overwriting) daily backups so that any fatal accidents would result in at most one day of lost consciousness. -
Two reasons. One, they have not indicated she ever made a backup copy of herself (combined with the time & effort it would take to write that into the storyline and actually do it). Two, it would make the death less meaningful. At this stage in the game, I think artistically speaking it's more important to have the finality of death be very stark for the sake of that being how life works, and to push Topher to grow as a character. It was a very gutting scene and Fran Kranz seems to really be a very good actor so giving him that kind of life-shattering, heart-wrenching scenario to deal with as Topher makes for some situations that really stay with the audience. That said, if they find some way to bring Bennett back within the show it would not be totally out of the realm of the show's lore (or whatever), and as a fan of the show and somebody impressed with the direction part of me longs for the characters' happiness and the happily (albeit cliche) ever after. The denial of that kind of makes for more powerful television, does it not? I think Topher will ultimately find solace in his parter Ivy, but who knows.
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I don't think they were lesbians Not that I much care either way. For them to actually be lovers they'd have to do more than wash each others' hair. You know, like kiss, hold hands, stare longingly into each others' eyes, etc. I can see how people might get a "vibe" but really, that happens in real life among friends when there is nothing there. I've flirted with girls or hung out and whatnot without us being lovers. So even if there was interest unless we did more than hang out we weren't actually lovers, were we?Granted I'm not gay or lesbian but I doubt that changes the rules much.-Cheers
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