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Herc Says Tonight’s DOLLHOUSE Is The Best Season-Two Installment So Far!! Learn What’s Ahead!! (Hint: Oswalt!!)
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Two long months ago Fox sent AICN the first of tonight’s two hours of "Dollhouse," the one titled “The Public Eye.”
Featuring Summer Glau as the D.C. version of Topher, “Eye” is the best episode of “Dollhouse” I’ve seen this season.
Prepare to see tonight and in coming weeks the introduction of:
* Ray Wise (“Twin Peaks”) as Adelle’s D.C. counterpart,
* Glenn Morshower (“24”) as “Sheriff Rand” and
* series writer Maurissa Tancharoen as the Los Angeles active Kilo.
Brace also for the return of:
* Alexis Denisof as the inquisitive U.S. senator Daniel Perrin,
* Miracle Laurie as former L.A. active Mad “November” Costley,
* Liza Lapira as Dollhouse lab girl Ivy,
* Keith Carradine as Dollhouse overlord Matthew Harding,
* Reed Diamond as former Dollhouse security chief Laurence Dominic,
* Alan Tudyk as broken active Alpha,
* Adair Tishler as Kid Caroline,
* Felicia Day as future warrior Mag, and
* Patton Oswalt as Internet mogul Joel Mynor.
Ahead:
Dec. 4: "The Public Eye"/"The Left Hand"
Echo is sent to stop Senator Daniel Perrin (guest star Alexis Denisof) before he can expose the Dollhouse’s secrets, and Adelle and Topher travel to the Washington, D.C. Dollhouse where they meet its genius programmer, Bennett Halverson (guest star Glau), a woman with a mysterious past connection to Echo. Then, in the second hour, Echo and Bennett have a shocking meeting as Adelle goes head-to-head with the ruthless head of the Washington, D.C. Dollhouse (guest star Ray Wise). Meanwhile, Topher sees double when he involves Victor in his espionage, and Perrin finds a surprising witness to testify against the Rossum Corporation.
Cast: Eliza Dushku as Echo; Tahmoh Penikett as Paul Ballard; Olivia Williams as Adelle DeWitt; Harry Lennix as Boyd Langton; Fran Kranz as Topher Brink; Enver Gjokaj as Victor; Dichen Lachman as Sierra.
Guest Cast: Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Ray Wise as Stewart Lipman; Miracle Laurie as Madeline/November; Keith Carradine as Matthew Harding; Alexis Denisof as Senator Daniel Perrin; Stacey Scowley as Cindy Perrin; Nelson Franklin as Burt Styne; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo.
Dec. 11: "Meet Jane Doe"/"A Love Supreme"
In the aftermath of her entanglements at the D.C. Dollhouse, Echo finds herself out in the world struggling to keep her multiple personalities under control. Adelle finds her grip on the house challenged by Harding, and Boyd receives a mysterious phone call. Meanwhile, when Echo’s past romantic engagements are murdered, suspicion falls on Alpha, whose return leaves one member of the house permanently mind-wiped.
Guest Cast: Keith Carradine as Matthew Harding; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Philip Casnoff as Clive Ambrose; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo; Glenn Morshower as Sheriff Rand; Ana Claudia Talancon as Galena; Jonathan Del Arco as Mr. Caviezel; Kevin Linehan as Deputy Merrick; Alan Tudyk as Alpha; Patton Oswalt as Joel Mynor; Brett Claywell as Matt; David Lee Smith as Clay Corman.
Dec. 18: "Stop-Loss"/"The Attic"
As his contract with the Dollhouse expires, Victor is released back into the world, where his military past threatens his future with Sierra. Meanwhile, Echo is deemed too dangerous and is sent into her worst nightmare.
Guest Cast: Liza Lapira as Ivy; Michael Kin as Hagan; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Vincent Ventresca as Nolan Kinnard; Adam Godley as Clyde Randolph; Tzi Ma as Matsu; Keir Thirus as Myers.
Mo Ryan at the Chicago Tribune summarizes what we know about the final three episodes of the series:
"Dollhouse" returns Jan. 8. Amy Acker guests in the Jan. 8 and Jan. 15 episodes.
On Jan. 22, "Dollhouse" airs its series finale, "Epitaph Two: Return," which was written by Maurissa Tancharoen, Jed Whedon and Andrew Chambliss. Felicia Day and Adair Tishler return as guest stars, as the show revisits the apocalyptic scenario glimpsed in "Epitaph One."
Find fascinating clips from tonight’s episodes as well as a transcript of Ryan’s lengthy and excellent Dec. 2 interview with Whedon here.
8 p.m. Friday. Fox.
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Shipping NOW!!
Cousin? Business Is A-Boomin' Dec. 15!!
Echo is sent to stop Senator Daniel Perrin (guest star Alexis Denisof) before he can expose the Dollhouse’s secrets, and Adelle and Topher travel to the Washington, D.C. Dollhouse where they meet its genius programmer, Bennett Halverson (guest star Glau), a woman with a mysterious past connection to Echo. Then, in the second hour, Echo and Bennett have a shocking meeting as Adelle goes head-to-head with the ruthless head of the Washington, D.C. Dollhouse (guest star Ray Wise). Meanwhile, Topher sees double when he involves Victor in his espionage, and Perrin finds a surprising witness to testify against the Rossum Corporation.
Cast: Eliza Dushku as Echo; Tahmoh Penikett as Paul Ballard; Olivia Williams as Adelle DeWitt; Harry Lennix as Boyd Langton; Fran Kranz as Topher Brink; Enver Gjokaj as Victor; Dichen Lachman as Sierra.
Guest Cast: Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Ray Wise as Stewart Lipman; Miracle Laurie as Madeline/November; Keith Carradine as Matthew Harding; Alexis Denisof as Senator Daniel Perrin; Stacey Scowley as Cindy Perrin; Nelson Franklin as Burt Styne; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo.
In the aftermath of her entanglements at the D.C. Dollhouse, Echo finds herself out in the world struggling to keep her multiple personalities under control. Adelle finds her grip on the house challenged by Harding, and Boyd receives a mysterious phone call. Meanwhile, when Echo’s past romantic engagements are murdered, suspicion falls on Alpha, whose return leaves one member of the house permanently mind-wiped.
Guest Cast: Keith Carradine as Matthew Harding; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Philip Casnoff as Clive Ambrose; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo; Glenn Morshower as Sheriff Rand; Ana Claudia Talancon as Galena; Jonathan Del Arco as Mr. Caviezel; Kevin Linehan as Deputy Merrick; Alan Tudyk as Alpha; Patton Oswalt as Joel Mynor; Brett Claywell as Matt; David Lee Smith as Clay Corman.
As his contract with the Dollhouse expires, Victor is released back into the world, where his military past threatens his future with Sierra. Meanwhile, Echo is deemed too dangerous and is sent into her worst nightmare.
Guest Cast: Liza Lapira as Ivy; Michael Kin as Hagan; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Vincent Ventresca as Nolan Kinnard; Adam Godley as Clyde Randolph; Tzi Ma as Matsu; Keir Thirus as Myers.
On Jan. 22, "Dollhouse" airs its series finale, "Epitaph Two: Return," which was written by Maurissa Tancharoen, Jed Whedon and Andrew Chambliss. Felicia Day and Adair Tishler return as guest stars, as the show revisits the apocalyptic scenario glimpsed in "Epitaph One."
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Lots of Cancelled in that Cast right there. Not a good idea, however good actors they may be.
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Lots of Canceled in that cast right there. Not a good idea for the show, however good the actors may be.
Its like taunting the universe to cancel you. -
and I'm looking forward to checking out S2 when it hits DVD. Bummed that this will be the end though.
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Okay...you all know that Whedon supposedly was making some abstract statement on Hollywood and actresses in regard to Dollhouse, right? Well, his statement isn't abstract at all, it is actually a pointed in your face insult to, and about, Fox as a company. Dollhouse is strongly implying that the folks at Fox are happily using the good old fashioned casting couch for certain choice actresses and actors. Even the name Echo (meaning reflection...in this case) is a dig...as if to say, "Hey, this hits close to home, doesn't it?" The Dollhouse represents Fox, various other studios, production companies, and agencies, as an analogous for the veiled prostitution of women and men...aka, actresses and actors...who are quite literally being pimped-out for sex in exchange for jobs. That is the reason why this show has no heroes or villains on it, and everything is a gray area?I thought Whedon had lost it by not follow standard writing rules in respect to this show regarding establishing a clear protagonist and antagonist, but now I understand, this series was launched as protest against Fox, and the industry as a whole, using their own money (the irony of it all), and right under their noses. So yes, the show is actually about rape, and rich white men buying women so they can exploit them as sexual objects to be used, abused, raped, controlled, and thrown away when they are done. That is the reason why the Dolls have no real voice on the show--no say so, etc., as they are exactly what they were planned to be by Joss Whedon...for his hidden in plain sight protest. I always knew Joss Whedon was deep, but I never knew he was this fucking deep? You are one bad ass Mutha Fucka...Joss Whedon!!! Congratulations, and keep on fighting the good fight Dude!!!!!
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The episode Frakes directed.
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it's November, right?
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So it's half as good as the worst episode of Lost? Awesome. Wasn't this show cancelled?
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Joss Whedon and Brian Fuller? Both have an interesting, unique body of work and a track record of "cancellage."
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When is comic artist John Cassaday's directing debut on DOLLHOUSE going to make it to TV? Or has it already played?
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Plot threads are never going to be resolved, the characters are unlikable and dull.
Has this officially been cancelled? I do hope so, because its such a waste of money! -
That was my one big hope for the season, even if it's hard to summon up much enthusiasm for the show now that it's cancelled.
Now if only they'd release a straight-to-dvd movie in a year or two, "Epitaph Three" and finish off the whole shebang. -
You finally worked out *ONE* level that the show works on, out of its many levels.
If you'd bothered to read posts from people you insisted were insulting you, then you'd know that many Dollhouse fans beat you to this particular insight, oh, I dunno, around a year ago?
As I say, it's just one particular thematic level that the show works on. Please do us a favour, and when you have an insight into one of these other levels which blows your mind, don't react like someone who has discovered the Big Mac in 2009 and wants to tell the world all about it. -
And I'm glad you finally found something you like about Dollhouse Media Messiah. But please, stop insisting the show is all about rape. Its about control.
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Okay...you all know that Mcdonalds supposedly was making some abstract statement on Burger King and hamburgers in regard to the Big Mac, right? Well, their statement isn't abstract at all, it is actually a pointed in your face insult to, and about, Burger King as a company. The Big Mac is strongly implying that the folks at Burger King are happily using the good old fashioned grill for certain choice cuts of beef. Even the name Big Mac (meaning a mac that is large...in this case) is a dig...as if to say, "Hey, this hits close to home, doesn't it?" The Big Mac represents Burger King, various other hamburger joints, diners, drive-ins and dives as an analogous for the veiled prostitution of cows...aka, hamburgers and cheeseburgers...who are quite literally being pimped-out for money in exchange for being eaten. That is the reason why this burger has no peppers or onions on it, and everything is a gray area?
I thought McDonalds had lost it by not follow standard burger-making rules in respect to this burger regarding establishing a clear all beef pattie and special sauce, but now I understand, this burger was launched as protest against Burger King, and the industry as a whole, using their own money (the irony of it all), and right under their noses.
So yes, the burger is actually about rape, and rich white men buying burgers so they can exploit them as sexual objects to be used, abused, raped, controlled, and thrown away when they are done. That is the reason why the burgers have no real voice at the restaurant--no say so, etc., as they are exactly what they were planned to be by Ronald McDonald...for his hidden in plain sight protest.
I always knew the clown was deep, but I never knew he was this fucking deep? You are one bad ass Mutha Fucka...Ronald!!! Congratulations, and keep on fighting the good fight Dude!!!!! -
If they are treating this as a "26 hour mini-series", I think that there will be more closure here than anything else Mutant Enemy has done. And what a great interview by Mo Ryan. I like the fact that she doesn't just blurb him but posts the transcript as well. And congrats to MM for picking up on something that Whedon said the show was about before it was even aired.
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Go full on sci fi porn
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...the programmable American public, already bought and sold, totally unaware of it, whoring themselves willingly to vast corporations who gaze down loftily from their penthouse suites. After all...look at the usernames of the haters...they've transformed themselves into advertisements for their favorite entertainment, and I'll bet they don't get a single penny for it. So they're WORSE then whores...they're actually FREE WHORES..whoresbrokenleg..SithWhore...
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The pair of Epitaph episodes are probably going to be what the show "should" have been to be a success.
As far as success goes, now knowing that it is cancelled with a half Season 2, wouldn't it have been far better to condense season one in a two are intro and then ramp up to Epitaph One through the season. ALL of season two could cover whatever Epitaph Two will cover.
Just sayin. -
"two are" should be "two hour". Way to completely deflate my point, self. lol.
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Or a professional golfer.
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If you look closely at my name, it is an anagram of "Mr_Mojo Risin'"
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alleged dolls who got deals from the Fox casting couch? Allegedly?
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These final episdoes are going to kick ass!
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Dude, you are making me hungry
Dollhouse is pretty. I've enjoyed on Hulu. Had to delayed TiVo my Stargate Universe to give Dollhouse the 9pm Tivo love, but now that it's cancelled DH is strictly Hulu bait, and I can watch SGU live.
Big Macs. Awe yeah. -
cool
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Anyone else not getting the pic? If you get it, can you explain it to me?
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It's a Maltronic 3D keyboard, designed to avoid Repetitive Strain Injury.
Funnily though, google refers to it as a "Special Needs" keyboard. -
its all about the graft.
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its all about, the graft?
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however small the audience may be, i hope they realize many viewers have not only never seen Epitaph One but have no clue it even exists. so let's hope they take that into consideration unless they figured its only fans left watching so fuck it.
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Keyboard. It's Summer's Keyboard! See I knew it was something related to the Summer eps - Herc's cool :)
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I mean its only the highest rated friday night sci fi comic book superman tv show on the wb in tv history!
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I'm really sad to see this show go, especially after reading the descriptions of the upcoming episodes. No stand-alones, apparently a lot of stuff leading directly into the "Epitaph" events, and a whole bunch of really awesome guest stars. At least they seem to be going out with a bang, I guess?
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he exceeds it. So now, this show that he's been bashing since before the first episode even aired, he's suddenly deciding to praise, because *he* finally got it? And I'm one of the people that have been pointing out the meta aspects of the show from the beginning. I really think schizophrenia isn't just a joke here. There are some really serious medical issues involved with MM. Anyway, can't wait for more Dollhouse. I love Maureen Ryan's interviews, especially of Joss. And I like that for this project, once Epitaph Two airs, that's it. No movie, no comic book, no webisode. I'm already eager for Joss' next project. Dr. Horrible II will be great, but I'm especially looking forward to a new web creation. Maybe, as he hints, someday a new show on cable.
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Do I have to get Obsessive Compulsive on your ass?!!!
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Yeesh, this hyperbole makes me want to blow a big wet rubbery one. Anyway, that is a neat interview with Whedon, even though it's terribly long and he mentions that he wanted more perverted sex in it. Which I think is a dead end because, basically, it's a broadcast show and you'll never see and fucking tits whatsoever so fuck sexy situations on there because it'd all be a big tease anyway.
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oisin5199, i've said it plenty of times before, but i'm schizophrenic and it honest to god frustrates me that i can't get through to media messiah. Its not just because i'm schizophrenic and want to get someone to realize they are textbook. I get frustrated because it feels like my current self trying to get my former self to realize what i now know. By that, I mean that I was here, on the aicn talkbacks (particularily the Battlestar Galactica talkbacks, with the username wixmmm) saying crazy things that make media messiah look like an accomplished psychologist. I was POSITIVE that I could get a job on the BSG writerts staff by posting here. And believe it or not, Media Messiah reads like the second coming of Dickens compared to what I wrote... to say my writing and ideas were cryptic would be an understatement. Red Hot Chili Peppers lyrics read like narrative prose compared to my posts.
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To say that Whedon is full of himself is beating a dead horse. He's so completely in love with himself he doesn't realize his own writing flaws. when he states in the interview that TV is meant to give you the same thing every week and he's not good at that, I almost narfed on the computer screen. He does EXACTLY the same thing every week, and more importantly, every show. All his shows detail female empowerment, or disempowerment, as the case may be. Moreover, the rhythm and tone of the shows varied little. Unresovled plot threads? Check. Transformations that in the end meant nothing? Check. (As examples, I'll point to Oz wolfing out and Fred becoming a Smurfette - or, as I liked to call it, a blue vamp.) Ominous foreshadowing? Yup. Overpowered females everywhere? Oh fuck yes. So enough with Whedon. I'm glad he's off the TV.
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but I don't think 45 minutes will be enough to properly finish the story we've seen in epitaph one. I'd be happy to see a finishing movie some time in the future. Much like how Serenity finished Firefly.
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I think I heard somewhere that the future timeline starts coming into play around ep 11. I'm not even sure what that means though: If they just start giving nods to the future or if the are going to switch back and forth between timelines.
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as structuring your episodes the same every week. What Whedon's talking about is formulaic procedural tv, where the episodes end neatly and tied up in a bow. He often turns conventions on their head and a scene or an episode goes in a completely different direction than is usual for tv - at least it was in the late 90s. But even on Firefly, a "big heroic scene" would often get undercut by a completely different element introduced. The problem is that his innovation has become expected, so now we expect it. And how could you possibly think that Oz becoming a werewolf or Fred becoming Illyria meant nothing. Are you kidding? The werewolf defined Oz's character and every direction he took afterwards, including his effect on Willow. Fred becoming Illyria was the beginning of the end for Angel's crew, where both Gunn (especially with his guilt) and Wesley checked out, and Angel began to make ever more desperate moves. No character development is meaningless on a Whedon show - you just have to follow the arc. Granted, there are a few exceptions of threads that just can't be picked up - with so many juicy characters, it's understandable. But on the whole, almost every move pays off.
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Dec 04, 2009 5:11:46 PM CST
dumped the eps on dvr, stopped recording: will get the dvds
by chromedome
Screw Fox for screwing another series over. Screw the advertiser who buy time on Fox-Screwed series.
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I don't see how Fred's transformation "became nothing". It impacted every character of Angel, especially Wesley & Gunn. And Oz'z wolfy-ness definitly affected Willow's character.
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Screw Fox,, for screwing another, series over. Screw the advertisers???, who buy time on Fox-Screwed, series.,,,,,,,,,,,??????,,,,,,,,,,,,!!!
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while I was typing :)
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Listen to Yoda, he should....
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should definitely be a Spike/Faith project. I mean, he already has Eliza, and I'm sure James Marsters will be happy to return to a steady paycheck (see: Dragonball). Slap on a quirky new supporting cast, a layer of grindhouse-esque grit to differentiate it from BTVS/Angel, and boom, you've gota great show with a pre-established fanbase. Faith and Spike have great chemistry, that one scene with them in Buffy's basement having a cigarette break showed more sparks than Buffy and Spike EVER had. I think it's about time to revisit the Buffyverse, in some form.
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Can you explain why this show has no protagonists or antagonists? That is the prime and central rule of writing, especially in drama, period!!! Joss Whedon is smart, you would agree, right? So why is it that he is not following basic and central writing rules with Dollhouse? He has an agenda here, and that can be the only explanation. Whedon has a certain point of view to express with this series, obviously, well...to anyone with true intellect, but what is it? The show hasn't overtly given us a reason for its being, its existence--and neither has Whedon...and yet, he is putting his all into the show? Again, he has a motive...and it is beyond just a paycheck, since, clearly...he can make deals pretty much anywhere. No, as with most true artists, when they do something, they always have a point of view to express, a message in their work to impart, and for genre writers...it is mostly hidden--something that is known by studied writers, historians and elite members of the media. As I always say, when highly educated people do curious things, and those curious things appear to be the biggest and most odd, and clumsy mistakes, and yet, no one seems to notice the elephant in a room full of smart people--then trust me, there is an agenda afoot, and the odd and clumsy mistakes that have appeared, are not odd or clumsy mistakes at all, but are intentionally placed secret agendas--and you, the onlooker, just have to be smart enough to figure it out, and I have.
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Actually, Oz didn't really chage all that much. He was still mellow until it served Whedon's purpose to not be mellow. Fred's Illyria transformation was great, but there was little to no payoff. In other words, the chages stopped feeling organic a long time ago. As it is, Echo chages every week with little carryover unless it serves the message Whedon is trying to convey. Yes, Fred's chage was the beginning of the downfall of AI, but if she was truly written as this superpowered demon chick, she would have stopped time, dusted Angel and Spike, killed everyone else, and that would be end of the show. Whether she's uber or she's not, she was never shown as stupid. Really it's just Whedon fucking with his audience. I get the impression he kind of makes it up as he goes along and retro-fits the facts to suit his needs. He admits as much on the second season Buffy DVD. Specifically he uses Jenny Calendar's lack of a backstory to fit the gypsies who cursed Angelus. Also, the season 8 comic admits much the same thing when talking about the "thrice-wise" who curses Dawn with these idiotic transformations (there we go again!) that added up to exactly zilch. Moreover, this new creature was basically made up to allow them to make Dawn incredibly large, a centuar, and I forget whatelse. I don't know if they did all this to avoid explaining Dawn has no real place in the Buffyverse or they were attempting to make the character interesting, but either way they failed. They (the writers) didn't even envision what this thing would look like! That's just lazy and talking down to your audience. My main complaint is that Whedon really doesn't know how to end a story. *SPOILER* Dawn and Xander kiss in a recent issue. Now we finally get an interesting plot point, and what happened? Fucking nothing. It's isn't even discussed by the two kissers! So while it was a good moment, Buffy is mopey (again...) about it, but otherwise almost nothing is said. Ergo it has added up to exactly nothing. *Spoiler ENDED*
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just a season and a half too late and a dollar short. Can you even read? Opps, that's right; forgot about your wonking eye & dylexia.
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"The changes stopped feeling organic long ago"? Pick up that line from your creative writing class? Look, I think I get what you are trying to say, that you thought the tranformations the characters went through affected more of the people around them than the character's arcs themselves, but I think you need to do this to push forward your plot. Fred turning into Ilyria set up Angel into wiping out the Circle of the Black Thorn. Oz's transformation set up Willow into tapping into her strong witch-fu. Those payoffs don't add up to nothing.
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Creative writing class? LOL! Nope, never took one. I wish I had; I'd be explaining my points better. Instead, I'll reference Drew McWeeny and his review of Serenity on this site. Essentially, Whedon is giving us soap operas, NOT sci-fi or westerns or horror or fantasy. There are elements of these genres for each of his properties, but after the 3rd season of Buffy, each work became more melodrama and deus ex machina than the genre dramadies they were alleged to be. I liked the first three seasons of Buffy because they were hemmed in by the structre of the school year. After that, the show became much more free form, and the arcs suffered. Whedon discussed this in the S4 DVD when he detailed he critisms of the season. He (begrudgingly) admitted it was uneven, but said it contained some of the show's best work. At this point I'm tired of his endless misdirection and inability to simply finsih one story and begin another. Some of this negativity is a direct result of S6 of Buffy, and his constant infliction of pain on the characters and viewers left a bitter taste in my mouth. He gives us some good "Holy Shit!" moments such as Agel watching Connor and Cordi boinking while hellfire and brimstone rained down on LA, but I've had enough of the melodrama. I also cannot stand the intimation that were supposed to be rooting for the slave (Echo) and the slavers (the Dollhouse) at the same time. After a while the show made me ill.
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My "N" key seems to sticking...
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...so, you can save the insults. Ironic, you didn't even spell dyslexia right, and you are attacking me about one's ability to read...and I am the one who is damn near blind...and dyslexic here? Ironic indeed? Anyway, my last post was to the other buffoons that normally attack me here, not you. "You're so vain...I bet you think this...???" Well, you know the song.
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the "closure" is usually not so much closure as it's like he's done talking about it and you have to fanwank your own ending. King does that a lot in his books. I kinda like those endings though, personally. They seem to resonate with me more than a cut & dried "All is well" (JK Rowling, I'm looking at you.
Buffy S6 alienated a lot of fans. I thought it was heavy handed - most peole blamed Noxon - but it doesn't seem as bad on the dvds, where it flowed a little better than the live viewing. I can't say anything to counter you though if you don't like soapyness or melodrama. That is your personal preference.
As for Dollhouse, I don't think I'm going to make a real judgement until I see all the episodes. Because of the nature TV, I think a few well turned episodes can actually save a series from mediocrity (but not from being canceled). -
Making fun of my spelling is lower than the direction that your wonky eye looks in.
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Dec 04, 2009 6:41:30 PM CST
Serenity & Astonishing X-Men & Dr. Horrible had good endings
by tall_boy66
Haven't seen Buffy or Angel but he's batting pretty high for a satisfying ending so far. Yes, Horrible was a curveball but it actually makes sense because operas always end in tragedies anyway. And it's a great song to close the movie too.
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In fact, one of the worst endings of all time. And don't blame the director, Whedon's script ALWAYS had the Newborn at the end. Yeesh. Bad idea from the start.
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I agree with the King reference, but I always got an idea of a logical progression in the loose ends. Randall Flagg recruiting a new army at the end of the Stand made sense, for example. You may not hear that part of the story, but I bought the premise. I lost that after S3 of Buffy. My main problem with S6 was the artificiality of the premise. Magic was used by more than a few characters, and NEVER was these an implication that one could be "addicted" to magic until it suited the melodrama Whedon wanted to invoke, and the process of addiction Willow underwent was complete bullshit as well. I say this as someone in recovery for 17 plus years. Her getting "sober" was a crock as well. I guess I'm just sick of Whedon breaking his own rules and not expecting us to catch it. Soaps do just that, and if Whedon called his shows soap operas I would not be able to carp. I would alos have never watched them in the first place. This is why I no longer consider them genre shows. The comic confirmed this a few issues ago when someone wrote about how using a dead character is his present form violated the rules of the Buffyverse. The response was that to raise the drama level, Whedon knowingly ignored his own rules. As per the response, the fans care much more about that than Whedon does. If he doesn't care why should I?
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I thought Whedon's script ended things on Earth?
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Be warned & be afraid
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The Newborn is a shit concept. Besides, in the script the Newborn is like a vampire (oh, joy, more vampires) and they fight on Earth in, like, an open field. Still has the shit ending of making the Newborn which is a terrible concept which is shit and a shit ending to a movie I actually quite like up to that point.
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"malfeasance". November's statement to the press also confirms that Dollhouse was not selling potential actives the whole truth.
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Have a soft spot for those being used? Only for those that are being used agianst her.
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did we ever find out who programmed November to help Paul last season?
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I have a feeling Washington, DC's Dollhouse has something to do with Sen. Perrin's wife. SUMMER!!
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I just assumed it was Alpha because November's message was the same as Echo's.
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Basically the whole thing was a feint to get Ballard into the Dollhouse and bring Alpha along. Why he needed Ballard to break in and couldn't do it himself? Ain't got no clue.
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Hah, girl falls down stairs.
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Just answered my own question there but I think Alpha's particular brand of crazy couldn't get him in the front door so he had to tag along with Ballard.
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Alpha brought Ballard along as a distraction.
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that Perrin & his wife's "White knoght" banter are triggers of some sort.
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Alpha was setting up Ballard as a patsy.
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You dumbass!! Yeah, just fucking GRAB the tramatized girl why don't you.
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The Senator???
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between Dollhouses. Oh shit...Perrin's glitching.
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Ballard's flip roll to get his cuffs in front of him :)
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like a bottle of Tylenol. Shit, imagine just getting an "adjustment" of ambition.
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Whedon must be dying on the inside right now. This episode has had so many moments that were surely major turning points in his five year plan.
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and they all think you're a bitch."
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and six of them are runny and one is solid. That makes the solid shit the best shit of the week right?
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It's like you never took a shit before.
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She's actually *using* the same keyboard. You are "easter-egg"ing the talkback :D
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as cute as can be.
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and you've heartily offended her". Bennett is just a River Tam away from ripping off labels on tin cans.
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even more terrible than usual
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The Handler wife screws the active; the active screw clients...which ones were supposed to be judgemental against again?
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I love your ginormous forehead.
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Envor is AMAZING.
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is amazing.
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but fuck! I was so excited. He had the *tenor* of his voice spot on.
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ball-crushing effective.
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smells a girl's hair, then tries to tazer her. Still working on that moral thing.
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Awesome.
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why crazy, hot chicks are CRAZY AND DANGEROUS!!!I wouldn't fucked that crazy bitch if she was covered in mud and calling me sexy!Bitch would probably cut your dick off or something!
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Flashback!
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For a show about sexual fantasies, that was the hottest thing they have shot!
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...and is also wrong. This show has a myriad of protagonists: the LA Dollhouse. Who is good and who is bad changes based on the situation. The problem is, this story is intended as an intense philosophical discussion, but Whedon may be in over his head. The early episodes suffered from being too subtle, trying to bury the philosophy deep in the Engagement of the Week format in order to prolong the series. Now that Fox forced his hand, the real questions are being asked and the characters are making overt philosophical statements.
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they start the tech downfall. It's not Alpha's cellphone remote wipes. Topher introduced it in "Belonging". He really did start it...
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I would love it if the remaining episodes were just about Summer Glau's batshit crazy computer nerd.
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Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed!
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Seems to be more complicated than Topher adjusting certain aspects... Hmmm.
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This is what happens when you let tech nerds get out of control and why jocks beat you up.
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Echo better regain her asskicking self!
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Revenge tried to tell us this years ago but we didn't want to see it!NNNNEEEEERRRRRDDDDDSSSSS!!!!!
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They knew each other at university?
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Win!!
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You're the only ones watching.
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hee!
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Topher makes me laugh.
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Dec 04, 2009 8:50:20 PM CST
I feel sorry for the employees who comes to work the next day...
by hollywoodhellraiser
and see the mess they have to cleanup!Or the owner who starts crying when looking at all the damage! LOL
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Your master let you out of the ropes tonight? Did he use the tortise shell design on you or just strap you to the wall?
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twisted, twisted game. Not Hungry, Hungry, Hippos.
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at the end.
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Dec 04, 2009 9:00:17 PM CST
Wow, Herc was right! The episodes were very good!
by hollywoodhellraiser
I enjoy the performances by Alexis and Summer!
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Aces.
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He's taking this show in the direction he never got to take Firefly due to its cancellation (which is also what what Serenity so good, it didn't go in that direction). Rossum = Blue Sun. The evil corporation runs the government. Whedon is such a good writer, but his philosophy is a bit lacking. He blames the institutions, not the humans. Still, there is hope for this show yet, as the idea of the individualism and free will of the human mind being the ultimate power seems like it may be the main philosophic thrust of the narrative.
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I'm thinking, there's gotta be more then one house.
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First, I wanted to tell you that I agree with your statement about the sped up plot. But it's probably a good thing for the 3 of us regular viewers. The faster they can try & tie things together will make it seem more like that mini-series they had to aim for.
But I think that he is not focusing on the institutions but the individuals that make up those institutions. We saw tonight with Bennett's character how they will adjust things to their own needs. I don't think he is "blaming" anyone so much as holding a mirror up to the people in charge. They surprisingly look like everyone else & their motives are just the same. What if the tech that modifies people started out, not as the big business venture Dollhouse stands for now, but as a truly altruistic purpose? If it started out as a good deed, when it gets corrupted, wouldn't they always have that original altruistic motivation to fall back on as an excuse?
I love your "individualism" slant and I do think it ties into everything. -
sent the cast "Thank you" cakes during the shoot of ep 12 tonight.
http://twitpic.com/s6vjk
This is why we are Mighty. -
There are 20 Dollhouses.
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Do they say that in this episode? Or did I miss that from a previous episode?
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Guess I missed that. I like this show, too bad. I bet everyone on it fucking hates Eliza for running the show into the ground with her bad acting. I'm sorry I didn't want to say it, but she's the reason the show failed. The solo episodes with her were just so bad. She's only good in small doses.
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Hard not to build a show around her in that case. Although they tried. I think she is getting better. Her strong points are still when she accesses Faith-mode though.
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"Can you explain why this show has no protagonists or antagonists? That is the prime and central rule of writing"I think you're mistaking protagonists and antagonists for CONFLICT. Good writing needs theme, conflict, suspense, characterization and other things. Does 'Catcher in the Rye' have an antagonist? it must be bad writing, because an antagonist would have made that book readable, because right now its garbage. (read: sarcasm--catcher in the rye is my favorite book.)
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And without here their would have been no show. But man those awful couple of episodes at the start of both seasons just sealed the deal on canceling this show. But anyone that says its worse then the Terminator show is a fucking moron. That show had 1 good episode. Nothing about that show was fun. There were no jokes, no one smiled it was just such a downer and Sarah Conner was such a pissy pissed off bitch. I'm glad that show got canned. The one episode I'm talking about, is the Terminators through time one, where the Terminator (the guy from the riches) ended up being some Oil/land baron or something, then built himself into a wall and waited for that EXACT moment to come out. At least that episode was odd and fun.
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if you actually had taken even the most basic, introductory writing class, you would know that good writing needs CONFLICT. Not protagonist and antagonist--that iS ONE way to create conflict in a plot, but (now i feel like a highschool english teacher as this knowledge is truly elementary) there are several other ways to create conflict without a bad guy: Man Vs. Man (hero/villain) Man Vs. Self, Man Vs. Nature and Man Vs. Society. Media Messiah: You call yourself a writer yet have no grasp of these relationships? I, have taken, classes? read, books about, writing?...................
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i forgot-- there is also Man Vs. MachineI was sooooo tempted to amend my post, except i wanted to make a point i left out clear, instead of making talkbackers compare and contrast posts to see what was left out, which (i'm sure i'm not alone here) is something i never do with MM's posts
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I quoted this: "Can you explain why this show has no protagonists or antagonists? That is the prime and central rule of writing"But cut out the end of the quote:especially in drama, period!!!
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frustration for me. And if that has been that way for me as a viewer, I can't imagine what it has been like for cast & crew. It feels like they are trying to tell me something important but it is a bad connection. I'm not sure if that's because of the parameters they have to work in or if they just can't articulate it enough but still....frustrating.
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Every time he's on screen, I'm impressed at how good of an actor he truly is and how much he makes Eliza Dushku look like a two-by-four by comparison.
Oh, and were any of my fellow old school TWIN PEAKS freaks reminded of Dale Cooper/Killer Bob smashing his head into the mirror when Bennett plowed her face into the monitor. Maybe just seeing the always-awesome Ray Wise made me think of that...
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Loved how they describe Perrin as a washed-up party boy well into his 30's but he had the right pedigree to be elected. Hmmm I wonder who this sounds like?
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Also liked how they kind of eliminated Adele, Ballard and Topher as possible Dolls when Topher used the disruptor when they were all present. After watching tonights 2 eps it is really disheartening that this show is leaving so soon.
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Why does Eliza Dushku have a production deal? By far she was the weakest link tonight. So so wooden.
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I think the sped up plot is much better. That's why I wonder if Whedon learns from Dollhouse. His two previous best works (Serenity and Dr. Horrible) were quick plotted stories. Serenity, like Dollhouse, was his hand being forced to tell the most important arc as quickly as possible (River Tam and the Reavers). If he really wants to go to cable, maybe he thinks the 13 episode seasons are better. Shows like Mad Men and True Blood seem to prove so.
Altruism makes something good? Sorry, I disagree completely. Altruism makes something bad. That is the reason I was really liking where this episode was going. With two competing Dollhouse (one good and one bad), it could be shown how the issue is the people, not the Tech or the House. As it stands, the show seems to be heading towards "Evil Corp creates evil Tech that destroys civilization." That's a rather simple point to a philosophically complex premise. (In contrast, a simple premise like Firefly had an extremely philosophically complex payoff.) -
On the subject of this abomination, wasn't that chick who played Cameron on T:SCC supposed to join the cast? Whatever happened with that?
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"Topher" is a gay ass name by the way! Fuck this show!
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when Fox shit cans this dung heap. in keeping with the festive holiday season, MM how you doing you conspritard fruit cake? Get on the heavy psych meds yet that you so desperately need yet?
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Thank goodness they were going in the direction that I felt the series should have gone from the debut episode of Dollhouse...onward, but unfortunately, the execution was shoddy and not well thought-out. "Caroline hurt my feelings because she abandoned me and left me to die, so I am going to try to kill her even though I will just be killing her body and not her mind, which is stored somewhere in the L.A. Dollhouse?" What a silly motive for a villain, and one where there would be no real pay-off for her revenge? And the two Tophers silliness...just got in the way of real character development or plot advancement; it wasn't funny, it was just stupid.
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The only thing wrong with my eyes is they distort my vision, like how I once viewed you as a kind and worthy person.
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These eps should've been earlier this season, though. There's a saying among novelists: "Start the scene/plot as late as possible and get out as soon as you can." Too much back story or non-essential details slow down the pace and might even bore the reader. These two eps were VERY entertaining TV and should've been right out there after the premiere reminded people of where we left off. Fair chance it would'nt be canceled quite yet.
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...in regard to dramatic writing and the need to emphasize antagonists and protagonists at the core of great drama...more than any other genre, albeit, let's be clear, this rule does extend to other genres like comedies, conversational films, family films, etc., however...in drama oriented writing...it is a must, unlike other genres; something my instructors always reminded us about, and people like the legendary writer Joseph Campbell insist...that by applying this rule, it always helps make stories stronger.
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just another quotable line from Dollhouse. I also love - "I think your guys are badder than our bad guys." So many things to love: Wesley and Faith together again, escaping something and choking something. Adele's crotch grabbing Leland, I mean Satan, I mean Ray Wise, Topher and Bennett's geek love then confrontation, Summer Glau's performance overall, still her signature creepy, but with new layers, the two Tophers (can Enver Gokaj or however you spell his name be any more versatile? The Topher imitation couldn't have been more spot on). Loved the Perrin reveal as well. I'm also really into the notion of Echo becoming more and more of a person as the direction for that character(s), instead of what we expect - Caroline getting her memories back. And next week: Alan Tudyk back in a crazy suit. It just gets better and better.
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I have never read it. Maybe someday, though? My favorite book, however, is Jonathan Livingston Seagull. That is a lovely book, and the conflict is a inner-personal one, but there are protagonists and antagonists along the way. The latter group are those who reject or fear Jonathan...so the antagonist is there. Benjamin Button...seemingly doesn't have an antagonist, and the same with Forest Gump...but they are there. Button's antagonist is death, time, and irony, and the antagonist for Gump is his disability versus the ignorance of those who would mock him unfairly...and or simply dismiss him as being a fool or a shell of a person. Yes, it is all done largely in metaphor, but the point is made, however Dollhouse has been all over the place in trying to explain its metaphorical antagonist...and that is what has killed the show.
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Sorry, dude, but if you've read the entire Buffy comic, including the letter column (!!), you don't get to say 'I'm done with Whedon.' There's no escape at this point! Besides, serial writers often say that they strike a balance between planned payoffs and neat things they throw in there that they make up reasons for being there later. It's a comic book. Why not have Dawn as a giant or a centaur? They were for visual gags. They made up what 'thricewise' meant later. So what? And yeah, they screwed up the whole Warren thing. I'll give Whedon a pass for a few things here and there. But I don't buy the whole 'soap opera' angle. Why can't genre television have characters with depth, and indeed, relationships with depth that shift and change in the same way relationships do? Plus, those relationships serve the plot. Besides, just because he doesn't call his shows soap operas, doesn't mean he's denied the soapy elements. He doesn't. You say 'suiting the melodrama Whedon wanted to evoke' - I say developing a character in interesting ways that make sense in the broader context of that character's development over a span of 6 years. I don't have experience with addiction, but I do understand a bit about magical practice in the real world, and yeah, addiction is kind of a bogus idea in that world, but really that was just the trappings - it was really about power and its abuse. But enough of that. Two Tophers!
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I think Herc is relating to the linear storytelling in tonight's episode as being the best of Season 2, and I agree in respect to story structure, but the episode was undermined by all the clumsy comedy parts that were 50 percent of the episode. A little comedy goes a long way, but there was much too much in this episode, something that hurt the drama elements. That said, Jonathan Frakes had the best episode this season, and the number 2 best of the entire series run.
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http://twitpic.com/s71uk
Give love to get love :) -
The show is schizophrenic in nature. You can't just have protagonists and antagonists inconsistently each week...just popping-up, changing colors from good guys (we think), to bad guys (we think), to indifferent (we are told), and then back again...or versions of all three, to being mind wiped and given a new mental imprint...and thus personality--and having all that came-out before...not count? That is Dollhouse from week to week, and sometimes four and five times in an episode?Look, we are in a channel surfing society now...and creators of shows have to be conscious of that fact and write in a way that the viewers can quickly jump back into the story if they miss 30 seconds or 2 or 5 minutes of the onscreen goings on. The problem with Dollhouse is, if you briefly switch channels and come back, go to the bathroom, quickly answer a phone call, or look away to answer a question from a family member, you will miss all sorts of exposition, suddenly twisting story arcs, plot points, and drastic character alterations on the show. The confusion is so high, and fast, you just want to give-up. That is schizophrenic writing, and it turned-off meanstream viewers and even most of Whedon's core group of fans.
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What I mean is, you have to have a consistent, and easily identifiable protagonist and antagonist in any story...who have consistent agendas and purpose for being. If you don't have that dynamic, the conflict doesn't work. How can you get into who hates who, or who loves who, and who is seeking revenge or why, or who is trying to restore their honor...and that of others, who's trying to save whom, who needs to be saved...and why, and finally...what cause needs to be fought for the greater good of all...thus establishing a theme of heroism for audiences to root for, if it, that's all or most of the details of the plot and characterizations...keep changing? Answer--you can't.
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You lost me on the "best work was Serenity and Dr. Horrible" part. I loved them both but Buffy is iconic. For a reason. Not disagreeing with you though on the short seasons ala British TV. Film them all, make it "event" TV & sell the fuck out of the DVDS.
But I think you misunderstood my point about the altruistic nature of the Dollhouse. I meant that they could have started out with good intentions; then they could use that original "good" intention to justify the bad things that they are doing now. Like a PR fallback position.
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was here to save us from ourselves. God bless him & his wonky eye.
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"The show is schizophrenic in nature."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0m9qbS8KTg&feature=relatedHope this takes you all places magical.Cut and paste the address above in your net navigators, but take- out any space or spaces that may appear in the address before you hit the enter button on your computer keyboards.
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accidental bold & shit. Have you've seen this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPQmzCgb1gI -
http://tinyurl.com/yjcujc5
http://tinyurl.com/n8abhq -
Why can't life be like that all the time?
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Thanks for the Dr. Horrible Emmy night videos. The Emmy was a long time coming for Joss and it is much deserved. He should have had it two times before, one for "The Body" and the other for "Once More With Feeling"...but he also deserved it for Horrible, so it was worth the wait. Here is that interview with Joss...and his promise of a Dr. Horrible sequel."Joss Whedon Comes Clean About Why Dollhouse Failed"
As we ready ourselves for the final episodes of Fox's Dollhouse, starting tomorrow, the Chicago Tribune's excellent TV columnist Maureen Ryan has scored a long interview with creator Joss Whedon, in which he is surprisingly candid about how Fox undercut the show and offers up a bit about the upcoming Dr. Horrible sequel.
Among other things, we learn that the series finale will be called "Epitaph Two: Return," that production begins soon and that it will air on Jan. 22, 2010. "Epitaph One," as we know, was the unaired extra episode from season one that looked into the Dollhouse universe's dystopian future.
Here are some excerpts from Ryan's Whedon Q&A:
"The problems that the show encountered weren't standalone versus mythology [episodes]," Whedon said. "Basically, the show didn't really get off the ground because the network pretty much wanted to back away from the concept five minutes after they bought it. And then ultimately, the show itself is also kind of odd and difficult to market. I actually think they did a good job, but it's just not a slam-dunk concept."
...
Joss Whedon
"We got the espionage that the network wants, but it's the questions about identity that we want," he noted. "There are other things about the show that never came back, and I didn't really realize it until the second season—[there were] things that we were ultimately sort of dancing around. ... We always found ourselves sort of moving away from what had been part of the original spark of the show and that ultimately just makes it really hard to write these stories."
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"People responded to ['Dollhouse' by saying], 'This is trafficking. This is sex for money.' It wasn't just sex," Whedon said. Part of the problem was "the other implications of what was originally supposed to be somewhat more of a fantasy. The real-world version of [this kind of activity] was I think what made the network really twitchy and I can't really fault them for that. I just thought when I went in and pitched it ...you know, it frightened me too [but I thought] we all got that that was what we were doing."
...
Once he's done making "Dollhouse," he'll continue to work with Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon on a "Dr. Horrible" sequel, the title of which Whedon declined to reveal. He will say that he expects to corral star Neil Patrick Harris and "the rest of the gang" from the first "Dr. Horrible" for the second installment of the Internet musical.
"What we need to do is get enough time to really solidify what we've got, really get the [script] in shape, and then it all becomes about Neil and his availability. We've been basically telling him, 'Do whatever you want,' which he clearly took to mean, 'Do everything there is,'" Whedon said with a laugh. "But we were like, until we have a script, we can't really think of a schedule or a venue or how we're going to do this and what size it will be, if we're going to get any kind of any kind of backing from a studio or an independent."
You can read the entire interview here. Dollhouse returns tomorrow at 8 p.m. ET/PT on Fox. Check back tomorrow for our preview of the final episodes.
What do you think of Whedon's comments? Why do you think Dollhouse failed to find an audience?
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In my opinion, the best broadcast episode of the show so far.
A couple of really good things : We found out that Adelle and others are definitely not dolls.
The show has now confirmed (through the senator) that the tech can be used to alter people, not just create them out of whole-cloth. This was something I had talked about in previous talkbacks, specifically with regard to promising immortality to CEOs, politicians, royalty and what not. Then once they're in the chair, BAMMO, you make them an altered version of themselves, where their ultimate loyalty is to you.
That there should be conflict within the dollhouses makes perfect sense. All it takes is one rogue element in one of the houses, to realise that the only people who can stop him are the other houses with the same tech. The only logical conclusion is to bring them under his control as well.
I can't say for sure, but I think this show must have been written / tweaked when they knew the show was likely to be cancelled. Because it really looks like they are ramping up to a definite ending, instead of drawing out these revelations over the course of their season.
If they had started Season 2 with something this strong, maybe it would have survived. But I tend to doubt it.
It looks like the majority of the American viewing audience isn't ready for a show that asks such fundamental questions about identity and how technology could (in the near future) impact on it. Which is a shame, because in the realm of written SciFi, this has been a well trodden theme for decades. And Scifi on TV hasn't had a new theme to explore since... gosh, I can't remember when. -
has in his column by Mo Ryan. Sy-fy is all blurbs, while Mo has the entire transcript - they are just copy & pasting from her original interview.
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Was kinda pissed off that they didn't play any eps for Sweeps but I think for us few; this format of 2 eps per Friday is going to work out better. Amazing stuff in the second hour that played off the first.
The "tech marriage" thing is kinda astounding to me. The modifications that you can create: Ambition? How abstract is that? To download a personal drive? Seemingly concrete, yet intangiable.
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A two hour episode.
And yes, subtle personality modification makes sense given the tech we've seen utilised.
Notice how they also introduced the idea of remote upload of new personalities? To go along with the remote wipe we'd seen in previous episodes?
The only limitation now, is that the person must have Dollhouse architecture (ie. they must have been in the chair to receive at least one treatment)
We are WELL along the path to armageddon now. That's cool.
I think the guy playing Victor has been the shows biggest revelation. He's a fucking chameleon. If the show was resting on his acting chops to carry it week after week, there'd be no problems. The difference in his acting ability, and say Eliza's, is fucking huge.
On a final note, I'd have finished Summer Glau's scene differently. And I hope, more disturbingly. Since we saw that she got a copy of Caroline's pattern, just as Topher got the Senators, I'd have finished the show with Summer torturing the Caroline personality. Either in Novembers body, or just electronically in the system. For me, either would be deeply disturbing. -
Bennet's motives for killing Echo remained a little murky. I don't think revenge on Caroline was the only factor. You're discounting the scene where she nearly pleads with Topher to realize what a wolf in sheep's clothing the Caroline/Echo shell really is. There's the possibility of two other motivations: She may have felt she was doing the world a public service by eliminating her, and she may be jealous of how easily people like Topher, buy into her act. Even long after Caroline has been wiped away and shelved, Echo still finds ways of hurting Bennet. In this case by leading her schoolyard crush, Topher, to punch her lights out.
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Because:
1. Fred / Illiryia storyline played out FULLY. After The Fall, Fred and Illiryia started becoming one in the same until Illiriya couldn't take it anymore and was healed by Gunn to Full GOD FORM power. It was then she started to tear down reality because she hated existing the way that she did. Finally a big telekenitic fish Helped by channeling all of the team's thoughts of fred into the 50 story tall Illirya monster, that caused her to collapase. Which then led to Angel letting Gunn turn him back into a vampire, and cut off his head. LA then reverted to the way that it was before Wolfram & Hart raised hell, and because of the "costly expedenture" Wolfram & Hart LA went out of business. However even though they reset time, all of LA still remembered their time in hell, and Angel. At the end of Angel After the Fall he couldn't walk down the street without being thanked. And we all learn the truth -- Angel will Shanshu, but while he still may be Angel with a soul he Shanshu'd with more evil and malice then Angelus ever would have, taking the worlds population with him. -
MM said: "What I mean is, you have to have a consistent, and easily identifiable protagonist and antagonist in any story...who have consistent agendas and purpose for being. If you don't have that dynamic, the conflict doesn't work."You're an idiot. CONFLICT DOES NOT, EVER, *NEED* AN ANTAGONIST! Again, conflict comes from Man vs. Man, Man vs. Self, Man vs. Society, Man vs. Nature, Man vs Machine. Conflict comes from one of those. You're only making a fool of yourself if you keep insisting a story needs an antagonist. Man vs. Man is ONE dynamic. The other dynamics create conflict just as well as an antagonist does. And you are also speaking nonsense if you believe drama ESPECIALLY needs an antagonist. Seriously, MM, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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MM said: "How can you get into who hates who, or who loves who, and who is seeking revenge or why, or who is trying to restore their honor...and that of others, who's trying to save whom, who needs to be saved..."Because: characters may not hate other characters, love other characters, seeking revenge, restore honor, need to be saved, or need to save others. There are MILLIONS of other kinds of conflict a story can be based upon.For the record, all this stuff i'm posting is NOT meant to apply to dollhouse specifically. Media Messiah was speaking broadly about how its a basic and requried rule of writing to have a clear antagonist. that is just untrue and proves MM doesn't know shit about writing.
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I finally watched Dollhouse for the first time and it was only because of my love for Summer Glau. She was great fun to watch but Dollhouse is one of the dumbest shows I ever saw.
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The misdirection leading to the reveal of Perrin as a doll was incredibly well-done; I absolutely did not see that coming. And Victor as Topher-Twofer was fucking gold.
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Just remember who you're talking to here. It's pointless...
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These episodes were just crazy good. Yes the plotting was fast, and it felt a bit like they crammed half a season in 2 42min chunks, but it worked. So much to love. Alexis Denisof sells the horror of being a doll. Echo evolves. 2 frikkin Tophers! Ray Wise! Summer Glau being a torturer! "It wouldn't be the first time." The many and subtle links to Epitaph 1. I loved it.
If they maintain this quality from here on out we're in for something special.
And Ryan, you are wasting your metaphorical internet breath. Talking to MM is like talking to a post-wipe Doll -
its not that i keep trying to explain to Media Messiah how conflict works in different ways as if its personal and i will not rest until i win the 'argument.' Its that I really enjoy reading MM's attempts to justify his point--which are funny posts to read.
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I enjoyed Buffy, but the writing on it is nowhere near equal to Serenity, Dr. Horrible, or, even Angel (which I am currently watching S5 for the first time). The first 3 seasons were good, S4 was great, and the show recovered in S7 a bit, but S5 was hampered majorly by the awful actress who played Glory and the "let's make Buffy even more annoyingly angsty by having her doubt she can defeat a God" storyline, and S6 was barely watchable due to the destruction of everything good on the show (ie: Xander & Anya, Buffy now doesn't even want to save the world) and unintelligent writing (ie: Giles returns at the end and uses good magic, which no one even mentioned seeking out all season). In contrast, Serenity and Dr. Horrible were tight stories with well developed premises that were engaging and inviting. The whole Reaver explantion in Serenity and the inversion of the Nice Guy/Asshole dichotomy in Dr. Horrible were brilliant.
I agree about your "good" idea. That discussion is why I like what they're doing with Adele. At the beginning she was the evil head of the Dollhouse that used the Dolls. Now we see her as a deeply measured woman who cares immensely for herself and other people, especially the Dolls, and respects the Tech and understands its use has consequences beyond the immediate. I just worry Whedon will jump to the extreme where all business is bad because businessmen are evil and only want to run the world, when, in reality, running the world is bad business (and also impossible). -
Congrats Dollhouse fans, that's no easy feat!
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gives me a impending sense of doom. Adele's devolvement is great, she was the most evil character in the show and it turns out she is the most kind member of the Rossum corporation.
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did a smallville rerun actually beat dollhouse? Man that would be awesome if its true... a RERUN of a show on a FRIDAY night, beating a MAJOR NETWORK show on a channel with FAR LESS viewership that herc reported was going to be CANCELLED would be a riot. But when I think about it, a smallville rerun beating dollhouse would actually make sense when you take into account two thing: 1) we've all seen the ratings of smallville (on friday) go up steadily week after week which means people jumped back on the smallville bandwagon as they tuned in several weeks into this season and 2) when tuning in, they realize this season has been the best yet, which would make them want to see episodes they had missed in the beginning of the season which they didn't watch because they (rightfully so) bailed on the show because it wasn't going anywhere for seven seasons, and was aweful from about season 4 all the way through season 7.
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I will read it right away!!!
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Wasn't that a rerun?
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It is just that "I think" a would-be villain should always be presented with a stronger motive, and then...writers can backtrack on things like whether their motives are justified. A stronger motive makes for a stronger villain, and that creates a stronger threat for the hero, hence realizing a stronger hero, and an overall stronger story. I think many times, what has happened with Dollhouse is that they hold their best cards for later, instead of front loading them, and then hitting people hard and fast with their best material and later going back to reveal the finer nuances like inner-personal issues.These are fine writer and creators, some of the best on TV--it is just that I think they didn't have the proper time to develop the show in advance. This happens to every writer. You have a great concept, but...bam, if you have the connections to run with it right away, it usually isn't as good as it could be if you are forced to wait and personally review and edit it for another several months, and sometimes years, of course, these things can work in reverse and your best work might show when you get to move fast and not think it over too much? I think it is a fine line between the two extremes, but I do remember Joss saying, just recently, that the green-light for the show happened so fast that he didn't have the lead time to develop it the way he would have liked.I am just finally glad that we have a feeling and thinking Echo out there...making her moves. They have finally given us a voice for the show--a hero to propel it, and its story arc. Last night was uneven, but there was a lot more good to celebrate, than bad.
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All the stongest material (scripts/movies) in film history...have two things in common, great antagonists and protagonists. That is just a fact. If you can point-out 5 films that don't...I can point-out dozen...and hundreds, that do. The late and legendary writer Joseph Campbell is a proponent of everything that I have said...and is widely quoted in writing circles. His work specifically breaks down the basics of all writing at the level of archetypes....from Greek Mythology, to Shakespear, to Star Wars, to everything in between and onward to show writers how to properly write, and what are the proper and basic components in all great writing, or at least, the richest works of them all. I am directly quoting his views, and for you to say that I am wrong, is to say that he was/is...wrong? I'd like to see you take his works on in a room full of writing legends, and experts...some one in the same, as well as the literary and film media, who...would promptly...disagree with you.
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Media Messiah quoted these lyrics in response to Buffywrestling: "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't You? 'This coming from a guy who thinks some of us are writers ('plants' to use his term) this coming from a guy who thinks writers were fired ('pink slips, anyone???') because they didn't take his advice about how to make dollhouse better. this coming from the guy who thinks he could do dollhouse better. -
Remember, that was just a psy-op.
Clearly, all those years studying groups like Carlyle or Bilderberg have taught him a thing or two about psyops, right? Why, he's probably got a history of knowing people in the CIA, that would like BLOW ALL OF OUR MINDS, but he can't tell us because secret agents based in David Bowies house would steal his tinfoil hat. -
we are ALL merely figments of Media Messiah's imagination.
Anyway...about Dollhouse, so what do we think about the link between Caroline and Bennett? A piece missing from Caroline's backstory or is there something else going on?
Oh and Locke...hah can't bothered. Just fuck off you trolling cunt. -
Yeah, that puts a deeper meaning on his words all the way around. Clearly, as so many Whedon fans have said...Dollhouse should have aired on Showtime...or HBO, so Joss could have delved head first...and waist deep into themes of sexuality...including graphic sex scenes, vulgar speech, and erotic tone...however, since that did not happen, we probably only got one 8th of the show that it could have been. Dollhouse could have, and should have, been Joss Whedon's best series to date, and hopefully he will take his next venture to a premium cable channel and even one to the BBC so that he can explore more rowdy and less PC adult themes. I find it interesting that Joss mentioned Fox' reputation for allowing rowdy content on the air, as well as a trend of other networks doing so, but if you notice, it tends to always be veiled under comedy--and often times, the actions are only talked about, but not shown. I think clearly the networks, and their censors, feel that they can laugh about and mock sexual taboo, but when you show it in a serious manner, if not talked about on a talk show, for instance, under a medical context...ala Oprah, it is a complete no go? Same themes, same import, even more graphic content, but unless it is shown in the form of comedy...or talk show medical guise, they won't allow it? Joss said that the networks aren't re-running series much anymore and thus the royalties are pennies for talent--must be the reason, I assume, that so many behind the scenes personnel in Hollywood are now begging for work in the porn industry--BTW, that is no joke. I think it is time for artists to join together and form their own artist owned networks, cable channels, and DVD and eletronic distribution. Why they don't, save for fear of certain mafia elements in the entertainment industry, truly boggles the mind? Hey, Oprah wised-up...and is now doing it with her O.W.N. channel set to debut on cable in 2011, or so, so why are no other top tier people in this industry aggressively doing the same? You have to become an exec to make the big money. Start a company and then go public on the stockmarket...and it should be a win, win--you just have to keep the budgets down...and the quality high for the product. Create, own and control the product...and you control the masters, the sych licensing, the rights to sign product tie-in deals, etc. That is a whole fortune, from video games, to toys, and so forth...all for the taking. My second move would be to try to buy a company like AT & T, or Comcast, as that is how you announce that you are serious and in the game...but you need the most respected folks in Hollywood to pull such a move off. People like David Geffen for instance, Michael Eisner, Spielberg, Lucas, Oprah, James Cameron...so on, and so forth. Anyway, it is either that, or artist will lose their place in Film and TV as musicians are in music. Thankfully, Trent Reznor and Prince have found a workable business model to vector their works, largely stimulated by touring and independent distributor deals. Like wise, Hollywood artists need to do the same. They need to launch their own studios to compete with the established studios or they will lose big time. It is about ownerships, not remaining an employee of someone else who can choose to rip you off...as they do, or lay you off, or under pay you!!! Any choice under those circumstances...isn't a real choice, it is financial suicide.
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My theory is that Bennett worked for Rossum, and was involved in the development of the Dollhouse tech. Caroline was someone who knew her in her personal life.
Caroline learned about what Bennetts work was about, and foresaw the potential for apocalyptic disaster, and convinced her to turn against the company.
In their attempts to destroy the prototype tech, Caroline escaped and left Bennett behind. Bennett is exonerated by Rossum, on the condition she helps to rebuild the tech that she and Caroline destroyed (though probably Rossum doesn't know who was behind the destruction, just that Bennett was injured in the attack).
Since then, Bennett has had an interest in what is special about Carolines brain. What makes her able to draw people to her, almost to the point where they are bent to her will. Is there some sort of latent psychic thing, or something else?
I don't think Bennett knew Caroline had been made into a doll. But I do think Rossum knew exactly who Caroline was, when they brought her in and made her a doll.
Think about it like this. They forceably take her to a Dollhouse, and imprint her with an edited version of the Caroline personality. One which was depressed and wanted to sign away a few years as a doll. Then they let her go, and she finds her way to the LA Dollhouse. Adelle and co recruit her, not knowing that her recruitment is not actually her own free will.
What do you think? -
...but one thing is for sure, you certainly have a set agenda against me, and that is so obviously clear, as you can't stop talking about me.
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I'll come right out and say it: I love the dollhouse talkbacks because you are so damn entertaining. I never know what you're going to say / think / predict / theorize / 'inform'/ 'teach us about the 'business' / accuse us of etc. I also love how you consistently push the boundaries of sanity and play it fast and loose with commas and question marks????????????So yes, you are the reason i come to these talkbacks. One thing, though, is i do not bash dollhouse. I'll respond in varying degrees of anger or frustration with herc's biased nature, or the way herc interprets the ratings, or something like herc reporting smallville is most likely going to be cancelled... but i am totally over the 'supernatural' issue (thanks to the ratings talkbacks, which i always give herc credit for) and the only real semi-recent problem i had with herc was related to smallville because herc would downplay smallville's steadily increasing ratings while spinning the dollhouse decrease in ratings.But I am NOT like Lockesbfokenleg, who (as far as i can tell) jumps into every talkback to talk shit and bash everything, alot of the time clearly showing he is not watching these shows. To be honest, my little secret is that I have not watched dollhouse. ALthough, on topic, i do come here to see if Dollhouse is going to be able to close out the storylines. If that happens, i will take great joy in watching all the episodes knowing I will get the full story, as opposed to investing in the show early only to be disappointed by a show that has promise (in my opinion, if whedon is attached, it has a decent amount of promise based on whedon alone) but leaves me hanging... i expected cancellation, so as much as i would love to give whedon's new show a shot, i know that he has a track record of awesomeness killed before its prime. (personally, i HATED the end of Angel. alot of people say it was a great ending but I wanted to see a giant apocalypse and hell on earth and learn the real details about wolfram and hart's apocalypse, as opposed to the other apocalypses
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I can't imagine how much it sucked to see all the episodes of firefly, which was a truly exceptional and special show, and having it end on just another episode (a great episode, but still, just a regular episode--no tying of loose ends) so, right when i had bumped to the top of my list of favorite shows ever, it just ends, with no series ending. However, I was incredibly lucky because when i discovered firefly, and watched that final episode, and was bummed that that was it, i learned that serenity was hitting theaters the very next week.
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Artistic self-ownership are very true up to a certain point, most artist's are pretty poor to begin with otherwise they self-ownership angle would be universally accepted. It's hard to be entrepenuer if you can't afford to even turn the lights on. But ultimately, that is the way to go, despite the risks. For example, the artsy-club district here abouts has fallen on hard times, some due to the economy, cocooning suburbia, and entertainment choices. But one of the main threats, was that the developers who owned big chunks of the area have an long term agenda to flip it for more bucolic, profitable to them, fair. So, not only are they fighting to survive, the very foundations of their neighborhoods are being cut away. Ownership might not have solved their eventual plight, but it would have given them a better position to fight from.
Now, there was one point in the episodes, where I maybe got confused, right after Echo beats up Perrin's handler and they escape, she stops them on a street with the "disruptor" thing... I thought she had handed that thing off to be packed, and how in the heck did she get in front of them??? d'oh. -
The wife is talking to Ballard (who's tied up) and she picks up the disrupter.
She tells the guard to pack it in her luggage.
Once Bree and Daniel stop the car, and get out on foot, that gives the wife time to get back on their trail. (They were still GPS implanted at that stage.)
She took her own car, and presumably her own luggage (with disrupter) was in the car.
They have their big fight scene, and Bree and Daniel drive off. The wife/handler presumably wakes up, still uses the GPS tracker and drives to a point ahead of them in order to use the disrupter.
While it's not specifically said in the episode that this is what happens, I think it's a plausible explanation. And in a set of episodes this dense with events, I'd rather they left a few blanks like that, without wasting time to explain every detail. -
I was being distracted by some rowdies and didn't bother to backtrack it... ;-) It just seemed awefully convenient, no biggie.
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In the music industry, they only give the artist 8 percent of the profit, that is industry standard. You get 50k upfront, but that is an advance on your assumed future royalties, and you have to pay back all of your cost, from promotion, including music video budgets, all phone calls, air travel, hotels and other lodging, as well as meals, and other expense on your, the artist's behalf. Then there is manufacturing, packaging, distribution, publicity, costs of masters, tour support, and production money for the actual music recording sessions. And guess what, after you, the artist, pay for it in the form of a loan--cause that is what it actually is...a loan, thanks to the cost being charged back to you--no matter...even after you pay it back, you are still forced to be in business with the record company for life, and even after death. They own your masters, which you paid for, and they only afford you an 8 percent profit...8 points out of 100, with no possibility of you owning your masters, ever? They contol the mechanical royals, and everything, and you better hold on to your publishing or you are dead. Unfortunately, record companies are strting to force what are called "360 Deals" on their artist. With a 360 Deal, they, the greedy record companies, can own a part of your touring money, your marketing deals, any profits you might make if you were to do some acting ala LL Cool J, David Bowie, or Beyonce, and if you do a reality show, well, they own a piece of that too. It is with these side deals that artist, previously...would make their real money, but now with the record companies demanding a piece of the action, that profit stream of money for the artist is fastly diminishing. Prince and Trent Reznor found that by cutting out the middle man, which is the record companies, if they sell a CD or album download at the cost of 10 dollars each, and if they only sell as low as 100 thousand copies or downloads of said albums, they make 1 million dollars. Sell a half a million...and that is 5 million, and sell one million...and you have made 10 million dollars. Your only cost is your splits with I-Tunes, CD Baby, or other online venders, or store retailers like Best Buy. You don't need the big record companies anymore, and this same business model can be applied to Audio/Visual content. I suspect the reason why Whedon went with the format of a musical for Dr. Horrible was that he knew that he could collect money on two plateaus, as standard DVD visual content...and as audio content ala a regular music CD, post internet release. You'll also note that Dr. Horrible has a 45 minute running time, or something of that import, perfect for TV sales in post, if need be--it was all factored in from the beginning. I would suggest that the next Dr. Horrible be feature length and made to not only fit internet sensibilities, but made for pay-per-view, cable premium channel formats, DVD, and for broadcast and basic cable commercial television aftermarkets...much like any other film. That way, it will be easier to market after its initial net release, and will have a wider shelf life.
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...the boundaries of sanity, that is how you innovate...while other mimic. They called the Wright Brothers crazy, and also Richard Pryor, Galileo, Tesla, and Vincent Van Gogh...were all called nuts, and now they are called visionaries. Call me a nut all you want, please!!!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwICut and paste the address above into your net navigator, and remove any space or spaces that appear in the address before you hit the enter button on your computer keyboards, or you will receive an error message and be routed to the wrong address.
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and cut off your ear?
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...and yet, now...they call him a genius? As far as myself, I have innovated, in my view. You however don't know my work...and I am not going to forward you to it either. I have given you guys my writing samples in the past, and although some of you had claimed that you would post your writing in challenge to mine, you reneged. I will not repeat that experience with you, ever again!
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...not innovating--cutting off one's ear, that is.
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I'm actually getting tired of responding to you, but you still can't understand. Protagonist/antagonist is ONE way to create conflict. Movies without a good guy/bad guy:Man Vs. Society: The great debators, remember the titansMan Vs. Self: Manic, Memento, Man Vs. Nature: the happening, jaws, the ghost and the darkness, deep blue sea, lake placid, jurassic park, twisterMan Vs. Machine: terminator, iRobotThe point, MM, is that there may be good guy/bad guy in these, but the foundation of conflict in a movie (even moreso in books) comes NOT from good guy/bad guy, but also, Man Vs. Self, Man Vs. Society, Man Vs. Nature and Man Vs. Machines. I'm too tired to list more, but there are infinite examples of movies with no antagonist where the conflict is drawn from other ways of crafting a story with a central idea setting up the conflict.
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since the chip is in the back of their neck and pretty high up, why did either of em have to remove their shirts? is this just a Fox rule about showing skin?
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...and Jaws had various protagonists and a antagonist (that would be the shark)...and was based on Moby Dick--which clearly had both. I-Robot, sucked. The Ghost and The Darkness sucked, Deep Blue Sea sucked, The Terminator had a protagonist and antagonist, I don't know Manic, Jurassic Park sucked, Twister sucked...although the antagonist is the Twister, Remember The Titans...I didn't see...but I assume the antagonist is the struggle to win, and The Great Debators, if that is the movie about racism (?), then racism is the antagonist. As far as Lake Placid...I recall the name, but not the movie? Here is a list of Great Movies with protagonists and antagonists. Close Encounters of The Third Kind, To Kill A Mocking Bird, The Ten Commandments, The Searchers, Lawrence of Arabia, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Somewhere In Time, Dances With Wolves, Braveheart, Dark City, North By North West, Planet of The Apes, The Godfather, Godfather II, Scarface, Superman, The Rocketeer, The Wizard of Oz, Fight Club, Apocolypse Now, Good Fellas, The Untouchables, Serenity, E.T., Raider Of The Lost Ark, The Professional, Halloween, No Return, Somewhere In Time, Duel, Observe and Report, Taps, 3 O'Clock High, and The Bourne Identity. I can go on...if you wish.
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along with being totally out of your gourd and a conspiritard cocksucker.
I would throw in liar but I don't think you understand what Ryanbraun14 is saying. Way to not understand a movie like Jaws. I have to alert the mental health authorities in your area they need to hook you up to a double drip of psych drugs plus push oral meds. Maybe, just maybe, they will push through your massive wall of crazy and stupid. -
...don't understand Jaws. Jaws was based on "Moby Dick" and the dynamic between Captain Ahab...and the Whale that he became obsessed with...the way you have become obsessed with me. As far as Spielberg's involvement in the movie, the studio heads at Universal saw Spielberg's tele-film "Duel". They hired him and specifically told him that they wanted him to "Make Jaws into Duel on the sea.", that is a direct quote. And that is also an historical fact...and well documented.
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...the whale survived.
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i dont remember what the currency was in.
im just saying. -
One?
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Dec 06, 2009 6:20:31 AM CST
Don't worry about. It's not like any expects factual accuracy
by v'shael
from you.
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Dec 06, 2009 6:21:33 AM CST
AMENDED : Don't worry about it. It's not like anyone expects fac
by v'shael
from you.
Gosh, isn't that "Amended" thing totally annoying? :) -
Because:
1. Fred / Illiryia storyline played out FULLY. After The Fall, Fred and Illiryia started becoming one in the same until Illiriya couldn't take it anymore and was healed by Gunn to Full GOD FORM power. It was then she started to tear down reality because she hated existing the way that she did. Finally a big telekenitic fish Helped by channeling all of the team's thoughts of fred into the 50 story tall Illirya monster, that caused her to collapase. Which then led to Angel letting Gunn turn him back into a vampire, and cut off his head. LA then reverted to the way that it was before Wolfram & Hart raised hell, and because of the "costly expedenture" Wolfram & Hart LA went out of business. However even though they reset time, all of LA still remembered their time in hell, and Angel. At the end of Angel After the Fall he couldn't walk down the street without being thanked. And we all learn the truth -- Angel will Shanshu, but while he still may be Angel with a soul he Shanshu'd with more evil and malice then Angelus ever would have, taking the worlds population with him. -
I think you're talking about the comic series, "After the Fall".
In which case, yes, I'd say most of the viewing audience of Angel didn't bother to pick it up. -
or whatever it was he said. Anything after that would just dilute the power of that ending. The fact they make one last stand, and most likely all died (especially Gunn, who's pretty much dead already)gives the ending a pathos and poignancy that picking up from there in comic book form ("oh look its Angel riding a Dragon" ...please) would only rob it of its impact. Thats my thoughts on the matter anywho.
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My bad. The Comic series was gerat theGoldBerg. It wrapped up the wolfram and hart storyline plus much much more, in a way the show NEVER did.
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But other than quickly flipping through them, I've not had the impulse to really dive in. The last comic I really sorta wanted to buy was John Bolton(?)'s rework of EVIL DEAD, but being a broke ass bum I had to pass on that too. Dr. Horrible was pretty cool, despite being a musical which is sometimes a grating concept. It is kind of odd that Joss hasn't learned his FOX lesson yet, but perhaps they are simply the only ones willing to pony up the dollars.
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Or one trailer of this *televised drama*
This is what you get for watching broadcast television-didn't you get the memo? They all suck. -
SpyGuy you are totally right about this actor, he's head and shoulders above the rest
I guess it must be hard for Dushku not only being that wooden but also being up against this guy
Remember the 'serial killer' episode where the killer was some stereotypical Southern nancy boy? And when he was 'in' Victor, the actor (Dichen Lachman, is that the guy?) played him exactly the same - a Southern nancy boy, right?
But Christ, when it was Dushku's turn she was awful - when she said "Do you think I'm stoopid?" I felt bad for her whole family -
HERCULES, I MISS YOU!!!!
From, Jones -
For me, Angel: After the Fall was hit or miss - some good stuff (mostly the Gunn material and the Spike scenes), but hampered by weak art. After After the Fall had some godawful shit with Kate and the Electro-girl and some shapeshifting panther. Things have been improving lately with the funny, episode-worthy sci-fi convention storyline (bringing back the Janus spell from the Buffy Halloween ep), and now Bill Willingham from Fables is signed on as the new head writer. So interesting things ahead. Buffy has been more consistent with some interesting developments and storylines with broad implications. But again, I'm just not a fan of the art. Georges Jeanty's stuff is just too cartoony for my taste. Some people like him, but not me. I wish the inside art was done by the usual cover artist (Jo Chen?) - now that would be gorgeous.
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