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Doctor Dan And His Fellow Britishers Drink In DOCTOR WHO: THE WATERS OF MARS!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Another “Doctor Who” special just hit the BBC!!
“Doctor Dan” says:
DOCTOR WHO: The Waters Of Mars
[SPOILERS] It's the beginning of the end for this incarnation of Doctor Who, as the final three episodes spearheaded by Russell T. Davies and starring David Tennant are unwrapped for winter. "The Waters Of Mars" was a fairly rudimentary episode, bolstered by some excellent villains and a final act that squeezed every last drop from the moral quandary The Doctor (Tennant) found himself caught in...
Arriving on Mars circa 2059, The Doctor is excited to see evidence of human colonisation, but upon entering "Bowie Base One" he suddenly realizes that he's stumbled into a terrible event "fixed in time" that he's forbidden to alter. Unfortunately, the inhabitants of the base, led by Adelaide Brooke (Lindsay Duncan), are infamous victims of an unexplained explosion that took their lives but helped shape the future of mankind -- primarily by inspiring Adelaide's granddaughter to become the first person to travel faster-than-light.
As it usual for The Doctor, his arrival coincided with the outbreak of an alien virus that has infected the water supply and started turning the crew into soaking wet zombies with mouths like cracked mosaic tiles, who are able to project water from their mouths and arms to infect anyone who comes into contact with the slightest drop.
The first half of "The Waters Of Mars" was breezy, formulaic stuff for Doctor Who, reminding us of various other episodes in the show's recent history – most obviously "The Impossible Planet". There was another melange of actors doing unconvincing accents, a "funny robot" called Gadget as a concession to the kids, countless foot pursuits up corridors, encounters with the enemy behind portholes, and more evidence of Russell T. Davies' fascination with segways (as the aforementioned robot is turned into a makeshift version thanks to the multipurpose sonic screwdriver.)
But, it was still a very engaging first half, primarily because "The Flood" enemy were genuinely creepy and horrifying creations. A few sequences of people quivering as they were enveloped in water were very effectively shot and unnerving for a show skewed towards families with young kids. But the real success behind "The Waters Of Mars" came in the second half, when The Doctor decided to leave everyone behind to meet their tragedy and ensure the timeline is maintained... only to have second thoughts when it dawns on him that, as the last of the governing Time Lords, it's really up to him how things pan out.
Interestingly, this was the first time I can remember when it felt wrong to see The Doctor trying valiantly to save the day (despite the heroic poses the camera afforded him when he returned), and there were some beautifully played moments in the denouement when The Doctor suspected he'd gone too far in altering time and saving everyone's lives. The Doctor now thinks of himself as a "winner" of the infamous Time War, not a "survivor", and surely has too much power at his disposal if he's refusing to obey established laws of time. After all, even a Dalek (seen in a flashback to "The Stolen Earth") knew it was in everyone's best interest to let Adelaide live as a young girl. You have to take a good hard look at yourself if the Daleks have the moral high ground, don't you?
Overall, "The Waters Of Mars" was fast and furious fun, but it wasn't until the final twenty minutes that it really started to give us something new and interesting to chew on. Everything before was perfectly entertaining stuff, but too reminiscent of past glories. It's perhaps a wise move of Russell T. Davies to move on from the show now, if stories are starting to remind you of other episodes, only with different people being imperilled by villains with different quirks.
Rating: 4/5
The Good
David Tennant, of course. It almost goes without saying. He's always a joy to watch on-screen, but he proved to be absolutely riveting in the dramatic moments that took over the second half. His speech to Adelaide about her death being a necessity for the greater good of mankind was particularly excellent, as was the denouement when we saw a darker side of The Doctor's character come through.
Lindsay Duncan. She wasn't really involved in a story that could showcase her acting that well, but her quieter moments towards the end were nicely handled and Adelaide's final scene with The Doctor was very touching.
The Flood. Some excellent make-up design and performances, ensuring these villains stand a good chance of giving a few young kids some nightmares. Bath time's certainly going to be fun for many families this week.
The special effects. Sure, the odd greenscreen was noticeable, but this was generally a high benchmark for Doctor Who. The Mars base and the climactic explosion were convincing, and the set design and location shooting worked very well to bring Mars to life on a BBC budget. I'm sure it's helped that BBC Wales have had much longer to fine-tune things with these intermittent specials in 2009.
The last act was particularly great -- big emotions, a few surprises, a fascinating look at The Doctor facing his own demons and fears of mortality. And I'm sure there are people who will be more excited about the preview for "The End Of Time" than anything in this episode itself.
The Bad
The annoying robot Gadget (with its incessant "gadget, gadget!" catchphrase) was incredibly irritating, and having it be instrumental in saving the day was obvious from the moment it appeared.
The first 30-minutes weren't "bad", but the story was so similarly constructed to previous episodes of nu-Who, that it was certainly tarnished by a mild sense of déjà vu.
The way The Doctor "flashed" on memories of reading obituaries/news reports about the crew felt like silly and lazy writing. You could have cut them out and just let David Tennant's expressions tell you all you needed to know.
Why didn't the infected woman being detained escape much earlier, if it was so easy?
The Geeky
This episode was dedicated to the 1970s-era producer Barry Letts, who died a month ago.
Actor Chook Sibtain previously played Mark Grantham in The Sarah Jane Adventures' episode "Warriors Of Kudlak"
Bowie Base One is an allusion to singer-songwriter David Bowie, who had a famous hit 1973 single Life On Mars.
The Doctor is seen wearing a modified version of the spacesuit from The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit.
The last time The Doctor was on Mars was for 1975's The Pyramids Of Mars.
Reference is made to The Ice Warriors, a Martian species who appeared in "The Ice Warriros", "The Seeds Of Death", "The Curse Of Peladon" and "The Monster Of Peladon".
The Doctor likened this temporal situation to the one he encountered at Pompeii, in the episode "The Fires Of Pompeii"
The final scene included the sound of a cloister bell, which has been used since 1980's "Logpolis" to signal a time of great catastrophe of impending danger on the show. The sound has also been used in "Castrovalva", "Resurrection Of The Daleks", "The Sound Of Drums" and "Turn Left"
Doctor Dan
“JADSTERSDAD” says:
I've attempted reviews of quite a few Tennant Whos. None has been more difficult than this. As usual, attemptedly spoiler-free. Exposition I'll leave to others.
This episode was co-written by Davies and Phil Ford, who did such a good job on many of Gerry Anderson's revived Captain Scarlet episodes (sadly underrated). How much that accounts for my reaction I don't know.
For me, this episode crystallised all that is good and bad about new Who. All that is best and worst. I had such mixed feelings throughout that I felt like I was on a kind of rollercoaster. There are many, many 'quiet' moments of dialogue between characters and David Tennant himself has an unusual amount of scenes where he is literally.... quiet. Observing. Thinking. These work well. Also his exchanges with guest star Lindsay Duncan ring very true. Chiefly because she is a great actress and great in this role. But the writer (?) must take credit also.
Then, though, there are..... the gratuitous gay reference. Now I've never minded these or commented on them before. But here, in a sea of such gravitas, it really stands out. If it came organically, then fine. This is the most clumsy shoe-horn ever. Next we have the running. Lots of scenes of running. And the pounding soundtrack. The first of these is a complete red herring and totally unnecessary. There's no real urgency. I think two characters were just summoned back to control or something. See, I can't even remember. But the music blares... the actors run....etc. Later, David Tennant gets to blare himself in familiar Tennant-Doc style. And run. God, even an annoying robot runs (in a badly misjudged scene). The robot is another generally bad thing, I think. Standing out like a sore metal thumb amidst the heavy atmosphere.
Lets get to the monsters. I think most people have seen the trailers. Their makeup is fine and pretty unpleasant. The idea of water being so threatening is a good one and does play out well. As the Doctor says.. water is 'persistent'. But when it shoots out of the monster's sleeve, well that's clumsily done and spoils the carefully crafted illusion. That's my overriding impression here. Quality, quality work (special effects, set design, acting, writing etc.) let down by silly or cut-price moments.
But I'm carping. The spine of the show, which is a meditation on time and interference on time-lines, takes a surprising turn. The finale is genuinely moving and we get to see a side of this Doctor we haven't seen before. Perhaps one we haven't seen in any Doctor before. And it's very compelling. This show's place in the final three episodes of Tennant's Doctor career is what makes it special. By the end, you just want to damn well see the other two! Although the return (inevitably) of past characters will divide people. Donna (my head droops); The Master (thank god); Bernard Cribbins (whoopee!). The set up here is great for going into the next and final story. I just hope they don't fluff it like they did the final part of series three.
Oh.. and there are nice throwaway references to things that will delight series devotees.
Still a difficult call, but I'd give this one 8/10 (which is fine if I get my 9/10 and 10/10 for the next two, in that order).
A final, final thought. I found myself wondering that, after JJ's Star Trek, the way they have reinvented Who now feels slightly wanting. Maybe that's just me. I'm not biased, though. I grew up loving Trek and Who equally.
Like pretty much everyone else, I'm now very eager for the cast and crew change next year. But let's enjoy this - guilty pleasures and all - while we can. We don't know what's in the future........
“Amiga Power” says:
Having just watched the waters of Mars on a cold Rainy Sunday night in Britain I have to say I feel wiped out. Awash with emotion and riding a wave of excitement. (yes, I'll stop, sorry)
The cast is Excellent headed up by Lindsay Duncan playing Adelaide who, as far as I can tell, is Ripley's Mum. The monsters are typically scary and at some points a little disturbing. The plot runs along nicely without giving you too long to pick it apart before things start going pear shaped.
The story opens With the Doctor visiting Mars unaware of the significant event about to occur. The key point of the story is that this is one of those “Fixed points in time” you know the Doctor's mentioned those before, like those tricky deadlock seals that were invented to stop the Doctor being too powerful. Any who the event cannot be changed and the Doctor must not interfere hmm I wonder what he is thinking about doing. The plot is well constructed and feels like a classic story with standard Doctor who moments of capture, escape, rescue. Like every good story this creates the conflict and by far the best moments of tension in the episode are played out between the Doctor and Adelaide. By the end of the episode you'll have been impressed by the visuals believe you're on Mars, been embarrassed by the robot, wondered when the Doctor was going to turn around.
Deciding who lives and who dies has often been a staple of Doctor who wondering who will be alive at the end of the episode is a great game to play. Although this episode get gradually darker and by the end you'll be surprised if anyone is left standing.
Tennant gets some more moments to push his acting (shouting) to the limit, the second twist of the episode (which you can just see coming) is darker than I thought the show would ever go. I won't spoil it but I really don't think the ending is appropriate for what many think of as a children's show. And quite the reason for it I'm not convinced of.
The good – Setting and effects make this special look like a proper blockbuster and why not.
- New improved darker doctor goes where no doctor has been before.
Excellent monsters that scared the water out of me
The bad – The robot – Doctor who doesn't have a great record on robots and really they haven't improved Imagine Wall – E built out of Lego with a flat battery. K9's starting to look quite hi tech.
- the whole plot hinges on the idea that you can't change time.... oh but guess what happens
Many of the problems with Current Doctor who are here nonsensical plot, pointless running down corridors, meaningless deaths. Coupled with the good bits great actors, acting, great effects and classic sci fi plots. We will have to see which of these elements win out in the final airing before Mr Tennant kicks the bucket.
(Oh should that last bit have been a spoiler)
“The Geekest Link” says:
It’s the beginning of the end for the Doctor in this special episode of arrogance and regret on the red planet. Waters of Mars lays down the gauntlet for what’s to come and it’s clear the writers are intent on making David Tennant’s exit from the show as emotive as possible.
While the actual meat of the episode was somewhat lacklustre, with 28 Days Later-esque zombies running about spewing water from their mouths, it’s the unexpected twists and turns of the latter half that knocks this episode out of the ball park.
The Doctor arrives on Mars to find a group of human researchers have set up a base atop a glacier. There, something alien has worked its way into the water supply and is slowly taking over the crew – transforming them into something... terrible.
As soon as the Doctor realises where he is, and that the happenings on Mars must occur if Earth is going to take to the stars, he is understandably anxious to leave the colony to its fate. This is a fixed moment in history, something the Doctor knows he cannot change. Everyone must die if the deaths are to inspire Captain Adelaide’s ( Lindsay Duncan) grandchildren to play a major part in the development of Earth’s interstellar travel.
The strength of this episode is not in the weak storyline, but in the Doctor himself. Impotent to save the colony, he comes to a realization: the Time Lords are gone and there is no one left to govern the Laws of Time. He is alone and Time is his alone to shape.
With no one to stop him, the Doctor returns to the colony to rescue the final three members of the crew. He is defiant that even Time cannot hinder him in his quest to change a fixed moment in history, and it’s his anger and passion and energy that makes this episode so very special.
But there’s an even bigger twist to come, when the Doctor, filled with all the arrogance and knowledge of the universe, declares himself the Time Lord Victorious; it’s a breath-taking moment as you realise the Doctor can do anything. Unfettered by his people, he is free to do as he sees fit, to rearrange history with impunity. He is practically a god.
Yet it doesn’t last. The final unexpected twist brings the Doctor crashing to his senses when he realises that his death is imminent. But he isn’t going to go out without a fight. The end is coming...
Overall, Waters of Mars was far from the ‘scariest episode’ that was so freely bandied about by the BBC. But what this episode does show the Doctor (and Tenant) in all his glory and majesty. It shows his remorse, his regret, his arrogance and, for the first time, his genuine fear of death. It reveals just how great an actor David Tenant is and how wonderful his portrayal of the Doctor has been.
With just two episodes to go, this glorious insight into the Time Lord psyche will only make the inevitable ending that much more bitter-sweet.
“Gabba UK” says:
Hi Herc,
Well, I pulled myself away from Modern Warfare 2 long enough to watch The Waters Of Mars and before I settle down to watch the return of Top Gear I thought I'd spin you a couple of lines about it.
November 21st 2059.
The colonist's of the first base on Mars are about to receive a visiter. But he shouldn't be there. It's a fixed point in time, It can't be altered and as we all know, he can't leave well alone if humans are in danger.
This is of course, the penultimate outing for Tennet as the good Doctor and as a result it has the feel of a set-up story for the big Christmas special. That in no way detracted from the fact that its was a cracking bit of Sunday night entertainment. RTD co-wrote it so the usual problems crop up but his usual excess's seemed to have reigned in by the other writer, Phil Ford.
This episode brings a whole new meaning to the phrase 'something in the water'. Something that was pretty frightening actually. An infection leads to one of the colonists getting chapped lips and the kind of sweat problem that even the best antiperspirant is going to have problems coping with.
The problem for The Doctor is that all the colonist's die, they are meant to die and it's important to the future of the human race that Captain Adelaide Brook dies with them. This is not really a spoiler as its apparent to the viewer that this is the case within a couple of minutes. This story is all about the Doctor coming to terms with the fact that he is not just the last of the Timelords, he IS a Timelord and he has been forgetting that recently. There is nothing he can't do, he controls time and the Universe had better start getting used to it.
This gets us back to what Donna told him that he needs someone with him, to keep him in check and stop him doing just that and when he starts to rail against time itself shout to all that he's in charge, he begins to sound like he's channeling The Master.......
Whats good? Well, the production, save for one tragic mis-step (those who've seen it will know that I'm talking about) is top notch. They went all out on this one. The special effects of the Mars base are pretty special to be honest, with a very convincing CGI explosion. Lyndsey Duncan, as always, gives a great performance as the doomed Captain Brook. The make-up was good and there were a few good lines of dialogue, "Water is patient, water always wins."
Whats bad? The tragic mis-step I mentioned earlier, which is really so tragic I don't want to mention it.
The teaser at the end tells us Christmas 2009, The End Of Time
Flashes of The Docter Running, Bernard Cribbins (Yeaaaaahhh), Catherine Tate (Noooooo), the Ood saying they have bad dreams, 'He will knock four times', a voice warning us of a darkness and the end of time (sounding a lot like Brian Cox), "They call me... The Master." "I'm going to die...."
Can't Wait.
“The Handsome 12th Doctor” says:
Eek, that was a bit grim wasn't it. In the best possible way that is.
As we head towards Ten's end things are turning darker. This was scary-Who at its coolest. I think the BBC missed a trick by not sticking this episode on at Halloween.
From the very outset it was like a sci-fi zombie tale. You may argue that *real* zombies can't run like that. And you may be right. But what I mean is it played out under the rules of a zombie film.
There was the infected. And if you're attacked by one then you became one of them, and then you have the urge to go attack the other 'living' folk. And it built up to the scenario where a group of survivors got trapped by the aliens/zombies.
I'd say this was a nicely scary set-up for the 7pm family slot. Pushed to the limit by the extra creepy make-up on the aliens/zombies.
Then came the water feature. This infection came out of the water(s of Mars). If you got just one drop of it on you then you became infected. And these were extremely leaky zombies. Water spurting out all over the place.
I liked how the director used a good mix of CGI and practical techniques for this. The choice each time seemed the right one.
A story such as this is always helped by having first-rate actors to keep it grounded. One name jumps out tonight. Lindsay Servilia of the Duncan.
Since coming back this show has attracted a shiny smorgasbord of talent, and I'd now place Lindsay Duncan at the head of the list. She gave a classy authoritative performance that benefited the action well. While David Tennant reigned himself in (mostly). I think he's much better when he's like this, rather than that "Alons-y" buggering about foppishly style he's been known to do. And I was even more impressed by the twist in his attitude when the Doc decided what being last of the Timelords meant. That was some quite ballsy writing at the end from RTD.
Praise also goes to the production crew for the design of Bowie Base. Yes, it really was called that. But that's perfectly credible. Scientists in real life do have a corny sense of humour.
So yeah, the sets looked great. They made me think of a modernized take on 'Silent Running'. They even had a funny robot.Something that will likely be the common target of hate here. Those who didn't like the flying bus the last time are probably not going to be too keen on a roadrunner robot.
Me? I liked the robot. I didn't like the altered theme tune though. They keep messing about with it, and it keeps getting worse each time. Another thing I didn't care for was the Star Trek Russian bloke. In fact the whole Trek league of nations thing. It's been done so often it's beyond a cliche now.
But those are little negatives I can easily ignore. Because the rest was all good to me. Capped off by a trailer that made me wish it was Christmas now.
“SPUD MCSPUD” says:
Hey Herc,
Here's a review of tonight's DR WHO - THE WATERS OF MARS, which is Tennant's second-to-last episode as The Doctor. If you use this, call me SPUD MCSPUD...
So - RTD's only got two episodes left to dispatch Tennant's Doctor with after this episode, so he's going to need lots of foreshadowing, and a sense of impending doom. He's teased us with glimpses of a claustrophobic, frightening siege drama set in the first Earth colony on Mars. Does he pull it off?
Hmm. YES and NO.
The plot overview: It's Nov 21st 2059, and the first Earth colony on Mars has been established for a third of its way through a planned five-year mission. The Doctor, travelling sans companion, is just passing through, and lands on Mars. He decides to go and have a look at the colony (which looks great by the way) and ends up meeting the Martian pioneers... who are supposed to have something very bad happen to them. A lot is made out of the idea of the Doctor being in the wrong place at the wrong time - apparently this situation is one of those fixed points in time he cannot change, no matter what. He should just leave.
Does he just leave? HELL no!
As is plain from the trailer, the colonists find themselves getting possessed, one by one, by water-based life-forms that exist only to possess others, and to get to Earth. Where there is A LOT of water. Which apparently they need to survive. What ensues is an hour of running (there's a nice joke about "Why didn't you bring bikes?" "A pound in weight costs three tonnes of fuel." "Still, though... no bikes?!"), people turning round quickly and snarling as they turn into H2O zombies, and every possible Carpenter rip off that RTD and writing partner Phil Ford could ram in there. Spurting jets of water possessing humans? That's PRINCE OF DARKNESS. Siege horror set in a claustrophobic environment it's near impossible to escape? That'd be THE THING, then. Lots of info relayed through comm screens and radios? The Snake Plissken movies (okay, I'm belabouring the point). But it does feel more a Carpenter script than a RTD one.
How about how it feels as a DR WHO episode? Well, this is the problem: it DOESN'T. It's the only Who episode I can think of where the Doctor literally does nothing to change the situation until the very, very end - and even then, it REALLY doesn't go well. There's an innocuous reference to "he will knock four times" - well, the spoilers are all over the net as to who THAT means and why - and it isn't paid off. There's much pomp and bluster from the Doctor as to who he is and what his "last of the Time Lords" status should mean, and gives us an out-of-character scene where the Doctor gets to be insufferably arrogant and smug - which will presumably lead to his doom in the last two episodes. The whole tone to begin with is of existential despair, of an oncoming apocalypse that the characters just have to come to terms with, not to change or escape from. In short, it sounds like RTD took his own script from TORCHWOOD - CHILDREN OF EARTH or THE SECOND COMING, tried to clean it up for family consumption, and and just shoehorned the Doctor in there. It feels like an end-of-the-world adventure by way of Nigel Kneale / John Carpenter / late-night RTD, but turned into a DR WHO adventure.
Is it good, though? For RTD's stuff, YES - it's frightening where it should be, has a nice air of hopelessness to it, the background details of the colonists and what their mission means for the spacefaring future of humankind is well done, beautifully put across in some very economical scenes, well written and tight as a drum. For others, NO - I'd have loved to see Paul Cornell, Stephen Moffat or even Gareth Roberts give this a go. It's a bit shitty having the Doctor observe for 50 out of 55 minutes, then decide to alter the unalterable outcome out of some misplaced arrogance that comes out of nowhere, simply because the script demands it. Why bother with the whole episode, if the Doctor does virtually nothing? It just seems pointless. The Doctor needed to be much more pro-active. And there's a vision at the end that makes no sense whatsoever. Yes, I know it's foreshadowed by an early episode in Season 4, but why would the Doctor see what he sees? Absolutely stupid moment...
All in all? Undemanding, nice sense of menace and foreboding, but almost no involvement from the Doctor - which renders the whole thing a bit unnecessary. Tennant is better than he's been in a while, but Lindsay Duncan walks away with the acting plaudits here. She's great in a very sketchy role, and brings more heart than this material deserves.
The less said about the concluding two-parter to Tennant's reign, the better. Suffice to say, the Flash Gordon rip-off scene at the end of LAST OF THE TIME LORDS is paying off in the finale. I'm breaking out the RTD BINGO CARD to see if I can finally fill it in the last Tennant episodes:
“DrSamBeckett” says:
Well. We all know this is the third last outing for David Tennant’s brilliant tenth Doctor, and this episode is probably the least child friendly episode ever made. And while that is by no means a bad thing for us adults watching, but young children might want to give this one a miss.
Story wise, this is deliberately basic. We never find out the precise nature of the watery menace that terrify the Doctor and the small group of humans exploring Mars from Bowie Base. There are a few nice notions back to the old series, the Ice Warriors are mentioned more than once. The group of humans are the usual collection of mixed races that the ever politically correct Doctor Who likes to offer. And to be honest, at no real point do we care about any of them, mainly because there is no time for real character development, with the notable exception of Adelade Brooke, the base’s brash captain.
She is instantly distrustful of the Doctor, as they always are, but she soon realises he isn’t going to harm them. We learn from the Doctor, that history records the base was destroyed, and all he wants to do is leave, because this is a fixed point in time that even he cannot alter. For Adelade’s granddaughter is a pioneer of light speed space travel, spurred on by her grandmother’s death on Mars. The Doctor knows all this from the beginning, he knows these people are destined to die and even he can’t change that. It is a fixed point in time.
However....
The Doctor does something very naughty, and he saves three of the crew, including Adelade. To this act, the consequences will be undeniably severe.
There is some action in this episode, and some great special effects.
All through this episode, we are privy to a mass sense of foreboding, the Doctor is going to die and he knows it. And after his actions at the episodes conclusion, his scary speech to Adelade, we begin to see a different person in the Doctor. This is a worrying character development, I saw less of the Doctor there, and more of The Master. The look in David Tennant’s eyes is one of raw power, we always were aware of the power of a time lord, but now we see that in an intimidating way. Even the Doctor realises he has gone too far.
But it is way too late for that, the damage is done. Just see the trailer at the end.
The End Of Time, is coming.
“Joedini” says:
Thought i would weigh in with my thoughts on Waters Of Mars, the latest Doctor Who special.
I went into this with my fingers crossed after being beyond disappointed with Planet Of The Dead, and luckily this more than made up for that.
I'm not the hugest fan of episodes penned by Russel T Davies but i'm starting to warm to him after this and Children Of Earth. With WOM he has knocked one out the park, just brilliant. If I come out of an episode and my only complaint is the over use of internet clippings (which was smacking the audience in the face with an already easy enough to grasp concept) then I know I've watched a winner.
This is a very diffrent Doctor Who. Sure it starts with an air of familiarity, base in toruble, group of people in danger, long corridor chases, all akin to tales such as '42' and 'The Impossible Planet' but around the halfway mark the story changes. The tone gets dark, very dark. RTD writes a number of emotional scenes that are written and played pitch perfect and the panic that is shown on screen tanslates well.
We also see a different doctor, a darker arrogant Doctor, something far removed froma way we have seen the character before, it's a joy to watch as much as it is unsettling.
This maybe the first Who story that might not be suitable for children, sure there has been scares before; 'Blink' terrifies me even on a rewatch. But this is different. A scene at the end depicts something that is very uncommon in the BBC's early schedule. But all of this only helps to boost the story and make it possibly one of the best New Who's we have seen.
We also did get a trailer for 'The End Of Time' at the end which makes the wait even more unbearable.
Roll on Christmas, roll on New year. David Tennant will be sorely missed but if this episode is any indication, he really is going out with a bang.
“Palimpsest” says:
Hi Herc
A quick heads-up on the second of 2009's four episodes of WHO, which has just premiered in the UK.
It's 2059 and a companion-less Doctor lands on Mars, where the first Earth manned mission has been on the Martian surface for 17 months. The Doctor pops in to say hello, largely to meet space legend and pioneer Adelaide Brooke (a guesting Lindsay Duncan). However, he's turned up on exactly the wrong day...
Cue plenty of running down corridors, jokes about running down corridors, a comedy robot, some very effective practical make-up courtesy of Neill Gorton's crew, and some less-convincing CG thanks to The Mill.
However, as is usual with WHO, spectacle comes a distant second to fascinating moral quandaries, as The Doctor is tempted to step way over the rules the Time Lords set in place...
Nods to at least three John Carpenter movies (PRINCE OF DARKNESS, THE THING and GHOSTS OF MARS) will please/infuriate the geeks, but the best thing about the episode is the darker tone throughout, the decent scares, and The Doctor's growing realisation that his time may be up.
The now-traditional teaser trailer for the nest episode promises the return of The Master (John Simm in nifty cowl and bleach white cropped hair). That ep, THE END OF TIME should premiere in the UK on Christmas Day, with one more to follow, probably screening on Jan 1st 2010.
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[SPOILERS] It's the beginning of the end for this incarnation of Doctor Who, as the final three episodes spearheaded by Russell T. Davies and starring David Tennant are unwrapped for winter. "The Waters Of Mars" was a fairly rudimentary episode, bolstered by some excellent villains and a final act that squeezed every last drop from the moral quandary The Doctor (Tennant) found himself caught in...
Arriving on Mars circa 2059, The Doctor is excited to see evidence of human colonisation, but upon entering "Bowie Base One" he suddenly realizes that he's stumbled into a terrible event "fixed in time" that he's forbidden to alter. Unfortunately, the inhabitants of the base, led by Adelaide Brooke (Lindsay Duncan), are infamous victims of an unexplained explosion that took their lives but helped shape the future of mankind -- primarily by inspiring Adelaide's granddaughter to become the first person to travel faster-than-light.
As it usual for The Doctor, his arrival coincided with the outbreak of an alien virus that has infected the water supply and started turning the crew into soaking wet zombies with mouths like cracked mosaic tiles, who are able to project water from their mouths and arms to infect anyone who comes into contact with the slightest drop.
The first half of "The Waters Of Mars" was breezy, formulaic stuff for Doctor Who, reminding us of various other episodes in the show's recent history – most obviously "The Impossible Planet". There was another melange of actors doing unconvincing accents, a "funny robot" called Gadget as a concession to the kids, countless foot pursuits up corridors, encounters with the enemy behind portholes, and more evidence of Russell T. Davies' fascination with segways (as the aforementioned robot is turned into a makeshift version thanks to the multipurpose sonic screwdriver.)
But, it was still a very engaging first half, primarily because "The Flood" enemy were genuinely creepy and horrifying creations. A few sequences of people quivering as they were enveloped in water were very effectively shot and unnerving for a show skewed towards families with young kids. But the real success behind "The Waters Of Mars" came in the second half, when The Doctor decided to leave everyone behind to meet their tragedy and ensure the timeline is maintained... only to have second thoughts when it dawns on him that, as the last of the governing Time Lords, it's really up to him how things pan out.
Interestingly, this was the first time I can remember when it felt wrong to see The Doctor trying valiantly to save the day (despite the heroic poses the camera afforded him when he returned), and there were some beautifully played moments in the denouement when The Doctor suspected he'd gone too far in altering time and saving everyone's lives. The Doctor now thinks of himself as a "winner" of the infamous Time War, not a "survivor", and surely has too much power at his disposal if he's refusing to obey established laws of time. After all, even a Dalek (seen in a flashback to "The Stolen Earth") knew it was in everyone's best interest to let Adelaide live as a young girl. You have to take a good hard look at yourself if the Daleks have the moral high ground, don't you?
Overall, "The Waters Of Mars" was fast and furious fun, but it wasn't until the final twenty minutes that it really started to give us something new and interesting to chew on. Everything before was perfectly entertaining stuff, but too reminiscent of past glories. It's perhaps a wise move of Russell T. Davies to move on from the show now, if stories are starting to remind you of other episodes, only with different people being imperilled by villains with different quirks.
Rating: 4/5
The Good
David Tennant, of course. It almost goes without saying. He's always a joy to watch on-screen, but he proved to be absolutely riveting in the dramatic moments that took over the second half. His speech to Adelaide about her death being a necessity for the greater good of mankind was particularly excellent, as was the denouement when we saw a darker side of The Doctor's character come through.
Lindsay Duncan. She wasn't really involved in a story that could showcase her acting that well, but her quieter moments towards the end were nicely handled and Adelaide's final scene with The Doctor was very touching.
The Flood. Some excellent make-up design and performances, ensuring these villains stand a good chance of giving a few young kids some nightmares. Bath time's certainly going to be fun for many families this week.
The special effects. Sure, the odd greenscreen was noticeable, but this was generally a high benchmark for Doctor Who. The Mars base and the climactic explosion were convincing, and the set design and location shooting worked very well to bring Mars to life on a BBC budget. I'm sure it's helped that BBC Wales have had much longer to fine-tune things with these intermittent specials in 2009.
The last act was particularly great -- big emotions, a few surprises, a fascinating look at The Doctor facing his own demons and fears of mortality. And I'm sure there are people who will be more excited about the preview for "The End Of Time" than anything in this episode itself.
The Bad
The annoying robot Gadget (with its incessant "gadget, gadget!" catchphrase) was incredibly irritating, and having it be instrumental in saving the day was obvious from the moment it appeared.
The first 30-minutes weren't "bad", but the story was so similarly constructed to previous episodes of nu-Who, that it was certainly tarnished by a mild sense of déjà vu.
The way The Doctor "flashed" on memories of reading obituaries/news reports about the crew felt like silly and lazy writing. You could have cut them out and just let David Tennant's expressions tell you all you needed to know.
Why didn't the infected woman being detained escape much earlier, if it was so easy?
The Geeky
This episode was dedicated to the 1970s-era producer Barry Letts, who died a month ago.
Actor Chook Sibtain previously played Mark Grantham in The Sarah Jane Adventures' episode "Warriors Of Kudlak"
Bowie Base One is an allusion to singer-songwriter David Bowie, who had a famous hit 1973 single Life On Mars.
The Doctor is seen wearing a modified version of the spacesuit from The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit.
The last time The Doctor was on Mars was for 1975's The Pyramids Of Mars.
Reference is made to The Ice Warriors, a Martian species who appeared in "The Ice Warriros", "The Seeds Of Death", "The Curse Of Peladon" and "The Monster Of Peladon".
The Doctor likened this temporal situation to the one he encountered at Pompeii, in the episode "The Fires Of Pompeii"
The final scene included the sound of a cloister bell, which has been used since 1980's "Logpolis" to signal a time of great catastrophe of impending danger on the show. The sound has also been used in "Castrovalva", "Resurrection Of The Daleks", "The Sound Of Drums" and "Turn Left"
Doctor Dan
This episode was co-written by Davies and Phil Ford, who did such a good job on many of Gerry Anderson's revived Captain Scarlet episodes (sadly underrated). How much that accounts for my reaction I don't know.
For me, this episode crystallised all that is good and bad about new Who. All that is best and worst. I had such mixed feelings throughout that I felt like I was on a kind of rollercoaster. There are many, many 'quiet' moments of dialogue between characters and David Tennant himself has an unusual amount of scenes where he is literally.... quiet. Observing. Thinking. These work well. Also his exchanges with guest star Lindsay Duncan ring very true. Chiefly because she is a great actress and great in this role. But the writer (?) must take credit also.
Then, though, there are..... the gratuitous gay reference. Now I've never minded these or commented on them before. But here, in a sea of such gravitas, it really stands out. If it came organically, then fine. This is the most clumsy shoe-horn ever. Next we have the running. Lots of scenes of running. And the pounding soundtrack. The first of these is a complete red herring and totally unnecessary. There's no real urgency. I think two characters were just summoned back to control or something. See, I can't even remember. But the music blares... the actors run....etc. Later, David Tennant gets to blare himself in familiar Tennant-Doc style. And run. God, even an annoying robot runs (in a badly misjudged scene). The robot is another generally bad thing, I think. Standing out like a sore metal thumb amidst the heavy atmosphere.
Lets get to the monsters. I think most people have seen the trailers. Their makeup is fine and pretty unpleasant. The idea of water being so threatening is a good one and does play out well. As the Doctor says.. water is 'persistent'. But when it shoots out of the monster's sleeve, well that's clumsily done and spoils the carefully crafted illusion. That's my overriding impression here. Quality, quality work (special effects, set design, acting, writing etc.) let down by silly or cut-price moments.
But I'm carping. The spine of the show, which is a meditation on time and interference on time-lines, takes a surprising turn. The finale is genuinely moving and we get to see a side of this Doctor we haven't seen before. Perhaps one we haven't seen in any Doctor before. And it's very compelling. This show's place in the final three episodes of Tennant's Doctor career is what makes it special. By the end, you just want to damn well see the other two! Although the return (inevitably) of past characters will divide people. Donna (my head droops); The Master (thank god); Bernard Cribbins (whoopee!). The set up here is great for going into the next and final story. I just hope they don't fluff it like they did the final part of series three.
Oh.. and there are nice throwaway references to things that will delight series devotees.
Still a difficult call, but I'd give this one 8/10 (which is fine if I get my 9/10 and 10/10 for the next two, in that order).
A final, final thought. I found myself wondering that, after JJ's Star Trek, the way they have reinvented Who now feels slightly wanting. Maybe that's just me. I'm not biased, though. I grew up loving Trek and Who equally.
Like pretty much everyone else, I'm now very eager for the cast and crew change next year. But let's enjoy this - guilty pleasures and all - while we can. We don't know what's in the future........
The cast is Excellent headed up by Lindsay Duncan playing Adelaide who, as far as I can tell, is Ripley's Mum. The monsters are typically scary and at some points a little disturbing. The plot runs along nicely without giving you too long to pick it apart before things start going pear shaped.
The story opens With the Doctor visiting Mars unaware of the significant event about to occur. The key point of the story is that this is one of those “Fixed points in time” you know the Doctor's mentioned those before, like those tricky deadlock seals that were invented to stop the Doctor being too powerful. Any who the event cannot be changed and the Doctor must not interfere hmm I wonder what he is thinking about doing. The plot is well constructed and feels like a classic story with standard Doctor who moments of capture, escape, rescue. Like every good story this creates the conflict and by far the best moments of tension in the episode are played out between the Doctor and Adelaide. By the end of the episode you'll have been impressed by the visuals believe you're on Mars, been embarrassed by the robot, wondered when the Doctor was going to turn around.
Deciding who lives and who dies has often been a staple of Doctor who wondering who will be alive at the end of the episode is a great game to play. Although this episode get gradually darker and by the end you'll be surprised if anyone is left standing.
Tennant gets some more moments to push his acting (shouting) to the limit, the second twist of the episode (which you can just see coming) is darker than I thought the show would ever go. I won't spoil it but I really don't think the ending is appropriate for what many think of as a children's show. And quite the reason for it I'm not convinced of.
The good – Setting and effects make this special look like a proper blockbuster and why not.
- New improved darker doctor goes where no doctor has been before.
Excellent monsters that scared the water out of me
The bad – The robot – Doctor who doesn't have a great record on robots and really they haven't improved Imagine Wall – E built out of Lego with a flat battery. K9's starting to look quite hi tech.
- the whole plot hinges on the idea that you can't change time.... oh but guess what happens
Many of the problems with Current Doctor who are here nonsensical plot, pointless running down corridors, meaningless deaths. Coupled with the good bits great actors, acting, great effects and classic sci fi plots. We will have to see which of these elements win out in the final airing before Mr Tennant kicks the bucket.
(Oh should that last bit have been a spoiler)
While the actual meat of the episode was somewhat lacklustre, with 28 Days Later-esque zombies running about spewing water from their mouths, it’s the unexpected twists and turns of the latter half that knocks this episode out of the ball park.
The Doctor arrives on Mars to find a group of human researchers have set up a base atop a glacier. There, something alien has worked its way into the water supply and is slowly taking over the crew – transforming them into something... terrible.
As soon as the Doctor realises where he is, and that the happenings on Mars must occur if Earth is going to take to the stars, he is understandably anxious to leave the colony to its fate. This is a fixed moment in history, something the Doctor knows he cannot change. Everyone must die if the deaths are to inspire Captain Adelaide’s ( Lindsay Duncan) grandchildren to play a major part in the development of Earth’s interstellar travel.
The strength of this episode is not in the weak storyline, but in the Doctor himself. Impotent to save the colony, he comes to a realization: the Time Lords are gone and there is no one left to govern the Laws of Time. He is alone and Time is his alone to shape.
With no one to stop him, the Doctor returns to the colony to rescue the final three members of the crew. He is defiant that even Time cannot hinder him in his quest to change a fixed moment in history, and it’s his anger and passion and energy that makes this episode so very special.
But there’s an even bigger twist to come, when the Doctor, filled with all the arrogance and knowledge of the universe, declares himself the Time Lord Victorious; it’s a breath-taking moment as you realise the Doctor can do anything. Unfettered by his people, he is free to do as he sees fit, to rearrange history with impunity. He is practically a god.
Yet it doesn’t last. The final unexpected twist brings the Doctor crashing to his senses when he realises that his death is imminent. But he isn’t going to go out without a fight. The end is coming...
Overall, Waters of Mars was far from the ‘scariest episode’ that was so freely bandied about by the BBC. But what this episode does show the Doctor (and Tenant) in all his glory and majesty. It shows his remorse, his regret, his arrogance and, for the first time, his genuine fear of death. It reveals just how great an actor David Tenant is and how wonderful his portrayal of the Doctor has been.
With just two episodes to go, this glorious insight into the Time Lord psyche will only make the inevitable ending that much more bitter-sweet.
Well, I pulled myself away from Modern Warfare 2 long enough to watch The Waters Of Mars and before I settle down to watch the return of Top Gear I thought I'd spin you a couple of lines about it.
November 21st 2059.
The colonist's of the first base on Mars are about to receive a visiter. But he shouldn't be there. It's a fixed point in time, It can't be altered and as we all know, he can't leave well alone if humans are in danger.
This is of course, the penultimate outing for Tennet as the good Doctor and as a result it has the feel of a set-up story for the big Christmas special. That in no way detracted from the fact that its was a cracking bit of Sunday night entertainment. RTD co-wrote it so the usual problems crop up but his usual excess's seemed to have reigned in by the other writer, Phil Ford.
This episode brings a whole new meaning to the phrase 'something in the water'. Something that was pretty frightening actually. An infection leads to one of the colonists getting chapped lips and the kind of sweat problem that even the best antiperspirant is going to have problems coping with.
The problem for The Doctor is that all the colonist's die, they are meant to die and it's important to the future of the human race that Captain Adelaide Brook dies with them. This is not really a spoiler as its apparent to the viewer that this is the case within a couple of minutes. This story is all about the Doctor coming to terms with the fact that he is not just the last of the Timelords, he IS a Timelord and he has been forgetting that recently. There is nothing he can't do, he controls time and the Universe had better start getting used to it.
This gets us back to what Donna told him that he needs someone with him, to keep him in check and stop him doing just that and when he starts to rail against time itself shout to all that he's in charge, he begins to sound like he's channeling The Master.......
Whats good? Well, the production, save for one tragic mis-step (those who've seen it will know that I'm talking about) is top notch. They went all out on this one. The special effects of the Mars base are pretty special to be honest, with a very convincing CGI explosion. Lyndsey Duncan, as always, gives a great performance as the doomed Captain Brook. The make-up was good and there were a few good lines of dialogue, "Water is patient, water always wins."
Whats bad? The tragic mis-step I mentioned earlier, which is really so tragic I don't want to mention it.
The teaser at the end tells us Christmas 2009, The End Of Time
Flashes of The Docter Running, Bernard Cribbins (Yeaaaaahhh), Catherine Tate (Noooooo), the Ood saying they have bad dreams, 'He will knock four times', a voice warning us of a darkness and the end of time (sounding a lot like Brian Cox), "They call me... The Master." "I'm going to die...."
Can't Wait.
As we head towards Ten's end things are turning darker. This was scary-Who at its coolest. I think the BBC missed a trick by not sticking this episode on at Halloween.
From the very outset it was like a sci-fi zombie tale. You may argue that *real* zombies can't run like that. And you may be right. But what I mean is it played out under the rules of a zombie film.
There was the infected. And if you're attacked by one then you became one of them, and then you have the urge to go attack the other 'living' folk. And it built up to the scenario where a group of survivors got trapped by the aliens/zombies.
I'd say this was a nicely scary set-up for the 7pm family slot. Pushed to the limit by the extra creepy make-up on the aliens/zombies.
Then came the water feature. This infection came out of the water(s of Mars). If you got just one drop of it on you then you became infected. And these were extremely leaky zombies. Water spurting out all over the place.
I liked how the director used a good mix of CGI and practical techniques for this. The choice each time seemed the right one.
A story such as this is always helped by having first-rate actors to keep it grounded. One name jumps out tonight. Lindsay Servilia of the Duncan.
Since coming back this show has attracted a shiny smorgasbord of talent, and I'd now place Lindsay Duncan at the head of the list. She gave a classy authoritative performance that benefited the action well. While David Tennant reigned himself in (mostly). I think he's much better when he's like this, rather than that "Alons-y" buggering about foppishly style he's been known to do. And I was even more impressed by the twist in his attitude when the Doc decided what being last of the Timelords meant. That was some quite ballsy writing at the end from RTD.
Praise also goes to the production crew for the design of Bowie Base. Yes, it really was called that. But that's perfectly credible. Scientists in real life do have a corny sense of humour.
So yeah, the sets looked great. They made me think of a modernized take on 'Silent Running'. They even had a funny robot.Something that will likely be the common target of hate here. Those who didn't like the flying bus the last time are probably not going to be too keen on a roadrunner robot.
Me? I liked the robot. I didn't like the altered theme tune though. They keep messing about with it, and it keeps getting worse each time. Another thing I didn't care for was the Star Trek Russian bloke. In fact the whole Trek league of nations thing. It's been done so often it's beyond a cliche now.
But those are little negatives I can easily ignore. Because the rest was all good to me. Capped off by a trailer that made me wish it was Christmas now.
Here's a review of tonight's DR WHO - THE WATERS OF MARS, which is Tennant's second-to-last episode as The Doctor. If you use this, call me SPUD MCSPUD...
So - RTD's only got two episodes left to dispatch Tennant's Doctor with after this episode, so he's going to need lots of foreshadowing, and a sense of impending doom. He's teased us with glimpses of a claustrophobic, frightening siege drama set in the first Earth colony on Mars. Does he pull it off?
Hmm. YES and NO.
The plot overview: It's Nov 21st 2059, and the first Earth colony on Mars has been established for a third of its way through a planned five-year mission. The Doctor, travelling sans companion, is just passing through, and lands on Mars. He decides to go and have a look at the colony (which looks great by the way) and ends up meeting the Martian pioneers... who are supposed to have something very bad happen to them. A lot is made out of the idea of the Doctor being in the wrong place at the wrong time - apparently this situation is one of those fixed points in time he cannot change, no matter what. He should just leave.
Does he just leave? HELL no!
As is plain from the trailer, the colonists find themselves getting possessed, one by one, by water-based life-forms that exist only to possess others, and to get to Earth. Where there is A LOT of water. Which apparently they need to survive. What ensues is an hour of running (there's a nice joke about "Why didn't you bring bikes?" "A pound in weight costs three tonnes of fuel." "Still, though... no bikes?!"), people turning round quickly and snarling as they turn into H2O zombies, and every possible Carpenter rip off that RTD and writing partner Phil Ford could ram in there. Spurting jets of water possessing humans? That's PRINCE OF DARKNESS. Siege horror set in a claustrophobic environment it's near impossible to escape? That'd be THE THING, then. Lots of info relayed through comm screens and radios? The Snake Plissken movies (okay, I'm belabouring the point). But it does feel more a Carpenter script than a RTD one.
How about how it feels as a DR WHO episode? Well, this is the problem: it DOESN'T. It's the only Who episode I can think of where the Doctor literally does nothing to change the situation until the very, very end - and even then, it REALLY doesn't go well. There's an innocuous reference to "he will knock four times" - well, the spoilers are all over the net as to who THAT means and why - and it isn't paid off. There's much pomp and bluster from the Doctor as to who he is and what his "last of the Time Lords" status should mean, and gives us an out-of-character scene where the Doctor gets to be insufferably arrogant and smug - which will presumably lead to his doom in the last two episodes. The whole tone to begin with is of existential despair, of an oncoming apocalypse that the characters just have to come to terms with, not to change or escape from. In short, it sounds like RTD took his own script from TORCHWOOD - CHILDREN OF EARTH or THE SECOND COMING, tried to clean it up for family consumption, and and just shoehorned the Doctor in there. It feels like an end-of-the-world adventure by way of Nigel Kneale / John Carpenter / late-night RTD, but turned into a DR WHO adventure.
Is it good, though? For RTD's stuff, YES - it's frightening where it should be, has a nice air of hopelessness to it, the background details of the colonists and what their mission means for the spacefaring future of humankind is well done, beautifully put across in some very economical scenes, well written and tight as a drum. For others, NO - I'd have loved to see Paul Cornell, Stephen Moffat or even Gareth Roberts give this a go. It's a bit shitty having the Doctor observe for 50 out of 55 minutes, then decide to alter the unalterable outcome out of some misplaced arrogance that comes out of nowhere, simply because the script demands it. Why bother with the whole episode, if the Doctor does virtually nothing? It just seems pointless. The Doctor needed to be much more pro-active. And there's a vision at the end that makes no sense whatsoever. Yes, I know it's foreshadowed by an early episode in Season 4, but why would the Doctor see what he sees? Absolutely stupid moment...
All in all? Undemanding, nice sense of menace and foreboding, but almost no involvement from the Doctor - which renders the whole thing a bit unnecessary. Tennant is better than he's been in a while, but Lindsay Duncan walks away with the acting plaudits here. She's great in a very sketchy role, and brings more heart than this material deserves.
The less said about the concluding two-parter to Tennant's reign, the better. Suffice to say, the Flash Gordon rip-off scene at the end of LAST OF THE TIME LORDS is paying off in the finale. I'm breaking out the RTD BINGO CARD to see if I can finally fill it in the last Tennant episodes:
Story wise, this is deliberately basic. We never find out the precise nature of the watery menace that terrify the Doctor and the small group of humans exploring Mars from Bowie Base. There are a few nice notions back to the old series, the Ice Warriors are mentioned more than once. The group of humans are the usual collection of mixed races that the ever politically correct Doctor Who likes to offer. And to be honest, at no real point do we care about any of them, mainly because there is no time for real character development, with the notable exception of Adelade Brooke, the base’s brash captain.
She is instantly distrustful of the Doctor, as they always are, but she soon realises he isn’t going to harm them. We learn from the Doctor, that history records the base was destroyed, and all he wants to do is leave, because this is a fixed point in time that even he cannot alter. For Adelade’s granddaughter is a pioneer of light speed space travel, spurred on by her grandmother’s death on Mars. The Doctor knows all this from the beginning, he knows these people are destined to die and even he can’t change that. It is a fixed point in time.
However....
The Doctor does something very naughty, and he saves three of the crew, including Adelade. To this act, the consequences will be undeniably severe.
There is some action in this episode, and some great special effects.
All through this episode, we are privy to a mass sense of foreboding, the Doctor is going to die and he knows it. And after his actions at the episodes conclusion, his scary speech to Adelade, we begin to see a different person in the Doctor. This is a worrying character development, I saw less of the Doctor there, and more of The Master. The look in David Tennant’s eyes is one of raw power, we always were aware of the power of a time lord, but now we see that in an intimidating way. Even the Doctor realises he has gone too far.
But it is way too late for that, the damage is done. Just see the trailer at the end.
The End Of Time, is coming.
I went into this with my fingers crossed after being beyond disappointed with Planet Of The Dead, and luckily this more than made up for that.
I'm not the hugest fan of episodes penned by Russel T Davies but i'm starting to warm to him after this and Children Of Earth. With WOM he has knocked one out the park, just brilliant. If I come out of an episode and my only complaint is the over use of internet clippings (which was smacking the audience in the face with an already easy enough to grasp concept) then I know I've watched a winner.
This is a very diffrent Doctor Who. Sure it starts with an air of familiarity, base in toruble, group of people in danger, long corridor chases, all akin to tales such as '42' and 'The Impossible Planet' but around the halfway mark the story changes. The tone gets dark, very dark. RTD writes a number of emotional scenes that are written and played pitch perfect and the panic that is shown on screen tanslates well.
We also see a different doctor, a darker arrogant Doctor, something far removed froma way we have seen the character before, it's a joy to watch as much as it is unsettling.
This maybe the first Who story that might not be suitable for children, sure there has been scares before; 'Blink' terrifies me even on a rewatch. But this is different. A scene at the end depicts something that is very uncommon in the BBC's early schedule. But all of this only helps to boost the story and make it possibly one of the best New Who's we have seen.
We also did get a trailer for 'The End Of Time' at the end which makes the wait even more unbearable.
Roll on Christmas, roll on New year. David Tennant will be sorely missed but if this episode is any indication, he really is going out with a bang.
A quick heads-up on the second of 2009's four episodes of WHO, which has just premiered in the UK.
It's 2059 and a companion-less Doctor lands on Mars, where the first Earth manned mission has been on the Martian surface for 17 months. The Doctor pops in to say hello, largely to meet space legend and pioneer Adelaide Brooke (a guesting Lindsay Duncan). However, he's turned up on exactly the wrong day...
Cue plenty of running down corridors, jokes about running down corridors, a comedy robot, some very effective practical make-up courtesy of Neill Gorton's crew, and some less-convincing CG thanks to The Mill.
However, as is usual with WHO, spectacle comes a distant second to fascinating moral quandaries, as The Doctor is tempted to step way over the rules the Time Lords set in place...
Nods to at least three John Carpenter movies (PRINCE OF DARKNESS, THE THING and GHOSTS OF MARS) will please/infuriate the geeks, but the best thing about the episode is the darker tone throughout, the decent scares, and The Doctor's growing realisation that his time may be up.
The now-traditional teaser trailer for the nest episode promises the return of The Master (John Simm in nifty cowl and bleach white cropped hair). That ep, THE END OF TIME should premiere in the UK on Christmas Day, with one more to follow, probably screening on Jan 1st 2010.
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and slag the episode, as you always so tiresomely do.
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Lol. I have not seen it yet, loved all the dr who produced under RTD. I am anxious to see what moffat does with the character, but hesitant at the same time.
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Still looking forward to the next one.
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...was better, IMHO.
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is going to air this during the dr who marathon coming up soon?
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December 19th.
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Just watched it with some friends here in Canada and we all were fairly impressed. Great makeup... and a VERY dark Doctor near the end. I can't wait for Christmas!
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Really really long.
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why didnt the doc just drop them off on earth a century earlier and tell them to stay out of trouble, like i expected him to?
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Just finished watching it - one of Tennant's finest episodes, absolutely breathtaking in places and kept me glued to the screen throughout. And to see The Doctor almost succumb to the same 'madness for power' as The Master was just...really creepy! Excellent Who and excellent television. Also loved the lighting used inside The Doctor's space helmet to make his face look almost skull-like. Nice touch. Roll on Christmas...
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...who will criticise the episode for the way The Doctor is portrayed, I have only this to say: this is a powerful story of a man with god-like influence, who has become drunk on his own power. This is NOT the Doctor of old. He's suffered survivors guilt since the death of his own people, which was partially his doing. He has had to watch so many friends die, had to follow the rules and not always interfere with events. And finally we see him snap and say 'Fuck the rules'. The Waters of Mars is an examination of the power and choices afforded The Doctor and how he chooses to wield them. Tennant totally convinces with his performance that enough is enough and he CAN do something to stop it this time. As a result, he acts out - becoming self absorbed and believing in the idea of being a Lord of Time for the first time really - and almost loses it all in the process. Powerful stuff in my opinion.
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Come on, RTD, do a reset, bring back Gallifrey, bring back the Time Lords, reset everything.
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It's fascinating how much of the episode is spent with the Doctor as a passive observer, just watching the zombie mini-apocalypse unfold, meditating on what restrictions on his meddling in time are really laws of the nature and which are just self-imposed rules of conduct that could be dismissed if the whim strikes him. I like the way you can see all the strengths and weaknesses of his whole culture come through him in this episode - from the aloof passiveness of the time lords of old through to the meglomania of the Master.
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from your closets and mindlessly praise the episode, as you always so tiresomely do.
Is this one of those forums that dissenters are boiled in e-oil for not sharing the mind hive? Talk about tiresome... -
show was fantastic!
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Yay, I wasn't expecting a new Doctor Who episode today and it was almost like Christmas came a little bit early! and speaking of Christmas...
SPOILERISH if you haven't seen the preview for the upcoming Christmas episode...
Donna Noble, my favorite companion from the new Doctor Who, is coming back!! Don't laugh, I HATED "The Runaway Bride" special like most everyone, and dreaded the news when I first heard that Donna would be the companion for Series Four. The writers of this series really surprised me, though, and made her into an enjoyable, integral part of the Doctor's travels. It'll be good to see her one last time! -
That show really needs to get its $#!+ together.
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...because it is vaguely mentioned that someone is gay. How dare their existence be acknowledged for half a second in a hour long show. Seriously, the reviewer acted like it was non-stop gay porn when all that happened was a passing reference to a character's brother being married to a guy. Episode was fine but this bullshit really pisses me off...
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Quit acting like some homophobic rant was dished out about this ep. The issue isn't whether or not someone was gay, it's the predictability of RTD's references like this. After a while they start standing out like a sore thumb and actually end up counter-productive by the way they call attention to themselves. This isn't about sexuality, it's about writing.
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And one of the best Who episodes that RTD has had his name on. So the cynic in me has to wonder how much influence he had.
I mean, I could assume he wrote in the gay reference, and the robot.
But it was really good.
Tennant reminded me of Doctor 4 at the end of the Key to Time, when he started going on about how he was going to break the laws of Time. -
...The Doctor had seemed to be helping until half-way through. The twist would be that he would be hastening 'Action 5' himself because of the Time Lord Prime Directive. That seemingly evil position could then be contrasted with a worse one by the end.
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The original designs for Gadget were a COMPLETE rip off of Wall-E.
And while RTD is saying loudly "IT'S BRILLIANT, I LOVE IT" I think you can see other people just going along with it, rather than saying "Er, won't we be sued?"
If I'm reading it correctly (and I could be wrong) it's indicative of how RTD's personality as show runner overwhelms the good people working with him. -
Good episode really enjoyed it, and any weak points were totally eclipsed by the stone cold fox Gemma Chan (Mia Bennett). Bet Tennant was up that like a ferret down a funnel.
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The Timelord Victorious should have been carried over to the next special. He should have been unaware that Adelaide topped herself. This would make a mouthwatering setup for the other specials. Alas, no he realises he's gone too far. Pish.
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The show that never ends.
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of 'The Timelord Victorious' scooting around time and rescuing the famous doomed... Robert Falcon Scott, Amelia Earhart, etc... only for it to lead to some almighty near-universe-destroying fuck-up. That would've been good.
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All the reviewers seemed to like it (mostly). RTD must have done something right this time.And to Mediagold, it's fine if you don't like it. Even the biggest fans among us here attack the show when it goes wrong. As long as you have something more constructive to say than "Dr Who gives a shit"
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Interesting that someone mentioned JJ' Trek, as it too was idiotic and badly shot. RTD is almost gone though, so there's only two more derivative, badly written, moronic episodes to go before Stephen Moffat takes control and we get some decent sci-fi instead of pop culture references and unecessary gay jokes.
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...Nov 13th, 2009
08:56:39 PM - "GI JOE was pretty decent. It had surprisingly good character development." This man is in no position to comment on the quality of anything. Ever. -
But i wanted to add, similar to Fortunesfool comment, it will be nice to see the constant homesexual references go!
I have no real problem with RTD putting in gay subtext to things, he's gay, so he's gonna do it. But I hate having to explain to my younger brothers about all the gay references.
As my review said, loved this episode, but the Doctor has gone too far and the time lords will not be happy!!! -
It's not the fact RTD puts in the gay references, it's the fact he puts them in EVERY time. It's just lazy writing. The gay movement has made great strides and with a large number of openly gay celebs and public figures. But every time RTD crowbars in a 'it's great to be gay' referance it grates because your waiting for it. It's just counter productive. Yes, we know gay people are just people. Yes, we know it's ok to be gay. Yes, we know that roughly 10% of the population is gay. But guess what, the tolerant, centre political, educated, census aware majority already knew all that long before RTD created Queer as Folk. My co-reviewer is right with the RTD bingo card. His Who writing is too often a paint by numbers affair and while I'll always be grateful for his making Who relevent and hip again, I'm pleased he knew it was time to depart the stage and leave it to someone who can take it further and better.
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Unless their job is to beat the snot out of other Robots like on 'Robot Wars', the BBC should be banned from putting them in drama series.
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to hear the Inspector Gadget on Doctor Who Confidential! But the robot was in there for the kids, take it out, and what is in there for young kids to enjoy?!
Remember Doctor Who is meant to be for everyone of all ages. -
There's no point wearing out your Caps Lock saying there's a gay reference "EVERY time" when that is patently untrue. What's the problem? Yes, there's is clearly a statement about the integration of same sex relationships in several RTD episodes. End of. In the '60s some folks would probably be watching Star Trek saying: "Yes, I get there will be black people in space in the future but does Uhuru have to be in EVERY episode?". Quote from your review: "This is of course, the penultimate outing for Tennet". Nope. And Nope.
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Forgotten it already. And the christmas trailer was crap. A 10 year old could have cut together a better trailer. The comic-con one was 1000 times better.
Still at least Timothy Dalton's in it. Cool. -
Sorry but you are very wrong. If you care to go back through RTD episodes, and that is a hell of a lot, there is a Homosexual reference in each and everyone of them. But it is never done is subtle way, there is nothing wrong with the intergration of same sex relationships into Doctor Who, but it is the ham fisted way in which it is done that annoys people, not the content itself.
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"Our colonial masters" is far more accurate!
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Your RTD griping is old hat and very boring. How do you know the Ood appearance was "absolutely stupid" until you see what caused it/how it plays out in the final two episodes? Just take any old opportunity to jump down RTD's throat.
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GINGER!
And yes, RTD made great strides for the red-headed community, so long mocked in the British Isles, by casting Catherine Tate as a sympathetic ginger companion.
But can you imagine how annoying (and how completely unrelated to the plot) it would be, if every episode in Seasons 1-3, had some character somewhere mention that they knew a ginger, or their brother was a ginger?
"Yes, Doctor, red-heads are people too. But what does that have to do with repelling the Sontaran invasion at the moment???"
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They said in the episode of Dr. Who Confidential, that the Doctor is being summoned by the Ood. That's what the vision was about.
So I don't think it was stupid, exactly, so much as unexplained. And you were supposed to be intrigued by it, not pissed off by it. -
I too thought they looked dead similar, V'Shael. However, don't you think that's probably the reason *why* the final robot looked different. They didn;t go with it in the end. The tone meeting being filmed took place a good while ago as this ep was only shot at the beginning of 2009. Maybe it was pre-Summer '08 and only later, when they copped a look at Wall-E, did they realise they would have to change it.
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in the grander scheme of the next two episodes, and I wouldnt count on them being friendly to the doctor. The one with glowing red eye appears after the Doctor checks in on Rose!
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-the entire Dalek Martian incursion was stymied on the fourth floor landing. Very very sad--
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Drsambeckett1984 said "fisted" *snigger*
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As I treat the Lord of the Rings films as one movie split into three parts, I also think of two parters as one story. Hence my description as this being his penultimate outing before the two part Christmas special. Also my use of capitals is meant to signify an exaggeration. It's not everytime but he does it enough to make it feel like it.
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This was probably one of the first Dr. Who specials that didn't make me want to fast forward through some of it. I enjoyed every second and that who last ten minutes was totally worth the ride.
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Glad you're so easily amused.
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I can't remember it but wasn't there an Ood warning in song of the ood stuff that his days were numbered? And Someone said your song is coming to an end? No prob Gabba! Maybe we can agree on pre-penultimate : )
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When the Doctor and Donna went to the Ood-sphere.
They replayed the clip during Confidential. -
And given that, Waters of Mars was really very good. Ropey SFX kept to an absolute minimum (what we saw was good, I thought). Acting was fine. Tennant fantastic. Very little technobabble... although we do get the Magic Sonic Screwdriver that can do anything. I let that slide on the basis that Gallifreyan Science is Sufficiently Advanced Technology. We don't really find out too much about the Alien Menace and we don't need to. Ten's conflict was well portrayed and when he changes his mind it feels genuinely significant. The Doctor we see at the end is real Valeyard territory. Whoever said they wished the Time Lord Victorious carried on into the next episode - with the gunshot happening after he closed the TARDIS door - I absolutely agree. That would have felt like a huge gamechanger. Still, looking forward to The End of Time. And it will be sad to see Tennant go. He really is very, very good.
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Nov 16, 2009 5:49:55 AM CST
It was OK. But yeah, the homo reference was shoed-in as usual
by col. tigh-fighter
Hated the fucking Robot, and ywah the monster sure made light work of getting out of te isolation chamber -when she finally gt round to noticing it. Actually it was rather Meh now that I think about it.
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Was so scary for the character, and although he may have had a shock from the Ood appearing, he might still keep some off the disturbing confidence for the next episode.
It is blatantly obvious the time lords will come back and punish the doctor for what he has done. After breaking the rules of time, the time locks on the time war and gallifrey will have broken down, remember " It is returning through the darknes".... -
I liked it. The reviews complaining that the Doctor doesn't do anything seem to be missing the whole point that the Doctor says over and over again. I wonder how the astronauts explain how they ended up on Earth. I didn't pause the screen to see if the "news article" explained it.
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New direction of the Doctor - good. They mentioned in dialogue earlier that having a companion grounded him and kept him human. No companion and the fates of his previous companions = good grounding for his arrogance.
However it still felt like 45minutes of one guy then the switch was instant into moody territory. As jccalhoun said it's not important but small plot gaps like how the Astronaughts would explain an immediate return to Earth detracted but not greatly.
I think all TB's can fairly agree that David Tennant has brought his all his tenure but (and even considering the 'it's a 'family show' argument) it needs to follow up on some of it's teasing story wise - to which a change in management may bring with Moffat (even though a few good episodes does make him the saviour).
As one TB'er said, if they'd had the Doctor leave the episode with this new found sense of authority then I would be a hell of a lot more hyped for the Xmas specials - which I feel will be emotional for the loss of Tennant but will only be on par story and dialogue wise as the Stolen Earth et al Xmas shows (bombastic soundtrack, stupid moments and no motivations bar what the script dictates and - beyond the Regeneration - a deus ex machina ending).
I hope RTD proves us all wrong and leaves his era with the hope and grace he has hinted at. I loved his Ecclestone series. -
there is a sub-story about the myth of the Doctor, so clearly that's how the survivors explained it.
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his new found authority, I think he may end up doing some more time line damaging things before he is done, like going back in time and visiting all his previous companinons... Sure he shouldnt really be doing that!
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in the new Time Lord Victorious mind set. What makes you think he hasn't?
By which, I mean, he's obviously shaken by Adelaide's suicide, but I didn't see that he was returning to his old law-obeying self. If anything, I took the "No!" at the end, to mean he was going to keep on breaking rules. -
That was my conclusion also.
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When he said "I've gone too far" I thought that signified him realising his mistake.
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Why would THIS particular event be the one that tips him over the edge into "I can make the Laws of Time bend to me!" territiory? So far, he's seen a whole load of Ood go into a black hole, the subjugation of Earth (and deaths of 6 million people) by the Master's Toclafane, he's seen wholesale slaughter by Daleks, Cybermen, even tens of thousands destroyed in Pompeii - but four people in a base that was already fated to explode? FOUR PEOPLE dying would tip him, but all the other stuff wouldn't??
Lazy writing, folks.
What's also lazy are the steals from John Carpenter (squirting liquid possessing people? PRINCE OF DARKNESS. GHOSTS OF MARS - the entire premise. Claustrophobic siege horror? THE THING), the entirely ripped-off WALL-E designed robot (which in true LOST IN SPACE remake fashion was entirely fucking pointless), the way a passive Doctor suddenly becomes an arrogant bastard at the click of a finger because the SCRIPT DEMANDS IT, NOT because of careful character development throughout the episode, which Tennant is more than capable of...
Tennant is brilliant. RTD is barely above mundane. This is the problem - had Moffat gotten Tennant for an entire season, we'd have seen the very best Tennant could give. As it is, he'll be going out in the limpest, most ridiculous finale EVER. The Master hiding in a sink estate masquerading as a chav... And what's the betting he's doing that to get to Rose's family?
FUCKING LAME, RTD. Don't let the door hit your lazy ass on the way out. -
Lately, the SARAH JANE ADVENTURES are pissing all over DR WHO and TORCHWOOD combined. Great writing, decent acting, some interesting concepts, and no tiresome RTD and his usual agendas (the gay agenda, the atheist agenda, the apocalypse endings etc etc) to slow things down. The Doctor ep was good... but what about that haunted house one!!!
THE SARAH JANE ADVENTURES are the REAL deal for Who fans... check them out. -
Yep, I noticed, 15-20 mins in, Yuri's brother Mikhail HAD to have a husband...
It's NOT the fact that there ARE gay characters - 1 in 10 people are not hetero - but the way they're introduced. The only other person whose sexuality was discussed per se was Adelaide, and then only the fact that she had children and grandchildren, NOT that she was straight or gay/bi. So the ONE reference to a crew member's sexuality explicitly on this show was entirely to point out that there is a gay person peripherally attached to a character.
So, you supporter's of RTD's risible shoehorning in of the gay agenda, tell me this:
(1) Did this revelation advance the plot?
(2) Did it add to the characterisation of the character who said it?
(3) Did it advance the plot / action forward?
(4) Did that detail come into use propelling the narrative forward later on in the episode?
No, no, no and NO. RTD has an agenda - to point out gay characters in EVERY episode, to annoy the ming-mongs, as he calls us. The irony is, it only serves to illustrate what a fucking limited, unimaginative, soap-box mounting, box-ticking Beeb sycophant he is. -
(1) Why does the Doctor suddenly decide that THIS is the astraw that broke the camel's back? After all the apocalypses he's dealt with, FOUR PEOPLE dying makes him upset? Why that situation, and not, say, Pompeii?
(2) What's the point of the fucking robot? Other than that shitty, where-did-the-flame-exhaust-come-from interlude.
(3) Last time the Doctor was in a situation where someone who should have died lived, the Reapers came in through the hole in the universe and "sterilised the wound", killing the Ninth Doctor for a while. Where were the Reapers when the two surviving crew members walked off, then?
(4) How the hell can the Ood's telepathic field reach across time AND space? They CAN'T be that powerful...
(5) How does the Master coming back through the ring (yep the one in the Flash Gordon rip-off ending to LAST OF THE TIME LORDS) work then? Chameleon arch? Bit lazy, there, if he does. Because we never saw him regenerate - OR become human in order to place his essence (oo-er missus!) in the ring (fnar fnar!). And if RTD says it all took place offscreen, well, it just adds to the argument that he's a fucking awful writer.
(6) Why would the Dalek leave the girl? Daleks don't show mercy. And it's been explicitly stated that only two Daleks have EVER seen into the Time Continuum: the Emperor Dalek, who escaped the Time War, and Dalek Caan, who went insane through it. So why didn't the Dalek shoot her? Daleks don't get to CHOOSE who they kill - if their orders are to kill, they kill. Except where RTD needs them to act completely opposite to how they normally do, because he can't be arsed to structure his plot properly...
It wasn't complete dreck (I think RTD hit his nadir with LAST OF THE TIME LORDS and VOYAGE OF THE DAMNED) but it was as pointless as the last special, PLANET OF THE DEAD, and just goes to show - RTD can only write gay drama or apocalyptic Nigel Kneale rip-offs. He's fucking useless at anything else... -
I found it on the internets, I copied it, then I sent it to Herc with te review. And it works bloody well, too. I predict the Christmas and New Year specials will complete it twice over...
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I think you're taking the Last Timelord thing the wrong way. It wasn't that 4 people made him change his mind, when all the other things hadn't. It was a constant erosion of his willingness to follow the laws.
Going back to Season 1, "Fathers Day", we've seen the Doctors willingness to bend the laws of Time in small ways.
So yea, he wasn't tipped over the edge by the Ood, or Pompeii, or whatever. But I think all of those were cumulative. And the Bowie Base crowd just kind of pushed him over the edge.
I'm as far from an RTD apologist as you can get, (years of ripping the piss out of his episodes on this site can attest to that.) But I think that change was telegraphed well, (most clearly, in the epilogue to that piece of shit "The Christmas Bride") and made a scary kind of sense. -
But why is it the only time someone mentions marriage, or sexuality is HAS to be someone who is gay? What???? Why??? spud mcspud is spot on on this point and so won't bother to elaborate. Other than that the episode was mostly excellent.
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(1) As said above, it's cumulative.
(2) Merchandising.
But even leaving that cynical motive aside, having a tele-sense controlled robot on Mars makes sense, because work being done outside the Dome requires EVA with a time constraint on the amount of air you can bring with you. Robots don't have that. Plus, they can be physically stronger (which was mentioned in a throwaway line).
(3) Different case. That happened because the Doctors personal time lines crossed. When the later versions ran past the earlier versions, they were changing their own history. This caused the world we saw (where Pete survived) to be a branched off time-line, which was then being consumed by the reavers (similar to Stephen Kings Langoliers story).
(4) Well, they may be that powerful. We just don't know. If it wasn't just Ood Sigman, if it was the entire Ood-sphere, then maybe. Besides, we have the same questions when River Song somehow sent a message to the psychic paper in the Tardis. What the hell was that about?
(5) I can't say, cause I have no idea how they're going to play it.
(6) I'll grant you, that was dumb, and badly explained. I'd have preferred if the Doctor gave some other explanation than let the whole "It somehow knew..." thing slide.
But again, to play devil's advocate, several people in that shitty episode told the Daleks "We surrender!" and shit, and suddenly the Daleks take prisoners.
So I think you could argue that they hadn't been given blanket instructions to wipe out the entire population. And children would be the least threatening to leave alive, if you were just decimating the population.
And I don't think RTD has hit his nadir yet. I won't feel safe saying that until his tenure is over. Though I can't see how ANYTHING will be dumber than having the Tardis tow the entire planet Earth at trans-light velocities. -
Good simile, though. Notice how bad RTD is at writing for OTHER minorities - like Martha's family, for example, whose brother is in some trouble with the police (in THE SOUND OF DRUMS), whose father just wants to score with a young sexy white girl, and whose mother is a domineering career-obssessed harpy. Not stereotypical at all, then. I suppose we should be thankful they weren't all eating fried chicken and watermelon round the family dinner table.
Then there's THE SECOND COMING, where RTD neatly (and blatantly) ignores the fact that Steve (Eccleston)'s best friend is a Muslim, and would therefore question Steve's authority, as Muslims believe that Jesus was a minor prophet sent to prepare the way for The Prophet, PBUH, much as John the Baptist was sent to herald Jesus for we Christians. Nope, a potentially interesting discussion is neatly sidelined by RTD's need to have a skinhead burst in the pub, stride up to Steve as if asking for a fight, only to rip open his coat to show a T-shirt which has a pro-gay slogan on it, and yell at him, "So watcha think of this, then?". Steve then meekly replies, "Fine with me, mate", and that's it - confrontation over. I don't need to mention that RTD makes no attempt to explain how any other minority would feel, only the gay community, in a drama which needed far more answers than it gave. And yet another RTD reset button, deus ex mahcina (literally) cop-out ending, too.
As Kanye West never said, "Russell Davies only cares about gay people". -
Well, yeah, but the design for Wall-E was made available online since Comic-Con 2007.
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Mind you, I generally love the new Dr. Who, but this reminded me of "children of earth" in the sense that NONE of the characters reactions seem to make any logical sense. The Dr. pops up at random in a place where no one is supposed to be, deaths start happening at random, and a scene or two later the captain is running down corridors ALONE with the Dr? Suddenly the prospect of altering the timeline is a great dilemma for the Dr; why? He does it in every episode. The captain offs herself in the end to make a future happen that she has no personal knowledge of? What about the other 2 survivors, or the fact that she would be found dead in her living room? I would think that would be a bit of a life-alterer for her kids. The whole episode just seemed badly written.
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I'll cop to the cumulative effect thing - I don't think it's been telegraphed well enough at all, and I've seen Tennant do subtle brilliantly in other stuff (most notably SECRET SMILE) so I know he's capable of making it more seamless given the material. I think RTD's writing let him down.
As for the robot... Not REMOTELY designed for any kind of work outside the dome, but as you saw in CONFIDENTIAL, it's RTD's magpie fetish for stealing others' work and passing it off as being a brilliant reference to something real, rather than a cynical rip-off because he has precious few original ideas of his own.
Timelines - But isn't the entire Time Continuum the Doctor's own timeline? He's been to both ends of it, so technically - especially as a Time Lord - it's ALL his timeline, isn't it??
The Ood - Telepathy has long been reduced to "wibbly wobbly timey-wimey stuff" status on new WHO, so no prizes for guessing why it's not explained. LAZY WRITING.
As for the Master coming back... **shudders** Just... DON'T.
Three words: DALEK EX MACHINA. Two more words: LAZY WRITING.
Agreed on the TARDIS towing Earth - and it only causing a few light breezes, enough to make plates fall off shelves, but NOT enough to make buildings fall down, cars skidding around the Earth, etc... Yep, LAZY WRITING.
There's a recurring theme going on here, don't you think? Though I think you're right - RTD's nadir is yet to come. It'll be Christmas Day and New Year's Day this year... -
Dr Who is SHIT. Unbelievably bad SHIT. Am I wrong? NO.
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Oh indeed. It would just seem odd (given the fact that they obviously changed the design in the end so they MUST have htought "Ooh err, gonna look too much like Wall-E") for them all to be sat in that meeting *planning* to do a Wall-E rip off. More likely they were just planning to rip off Johnny Five! ;-)
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Seriously, it's showing all over the place.
Though yeah, towing the Earth was shit. -
No, when it comes to the Doctor (or any time lord) crossing his own timeline, then its different. It's been that way since the original series.
Like when Adric died, there was a big shouting match between the Doctor and Tegan and Nyssa. The Doctor knew he couldn't just travel back and get Adric. -
"The Dr. pops up at random in a place where no one is supposed to be, deaths start happening at random, and a scene or two later the captain is running down corridors ALONE with the Dr?"
Have you ever watched the show before? This is pretty much standard.
The Doctor arrives somewhere, is usually placed under arrest before the end of the first act (or episode) and then before you know it, he's running the joint.
Steven Moffat made a good stab at explaining how the Doctor does this in his short story "Continuity Errors" in Decalog 3. -
We have no idea how powerful the Ood actually are, we havent seen enough of them to make a judgement. If they knew the Doctor was going to die, then maybe they are telepathically linked to the flow of time itself?
The Dalek left her alone 1 because it knew she was going to die in the future, 2 because, it along with all the other daleks, was called back to the crucible to stop the doctor and donna!
Having the master back will be amazing, John Simm's fantastic Master was a highlight in an otherwise dull third seaon. So what if he uses the ring in the same way the doctor used the fobwatch, its not lazy plotting. It is simply television storytelling.
I'm the biggest fan of RTD, I think he can be a bit of a hack at times, but the man brought back Doctor Who from the brink of oblivilion and made it relevant again.
Anyone who thinks the next season will be better is going to be in for a massive shock, from the storylines, the actors, the leaked videos and photos, it looks awful!!! As far as I'm concerned Doctor Who ends on New Years Day! -
I want to be as UNLIKE RTD as possible as a writer. You see, I like to do stuff like research, even on other minorities. Martha's family wouldn't have been thinly veiled stereotypes if I'd written them. I also actualy bother to read books on screenwriting, attend seminars and workshops on screenwriting, and understand the underlying principles of screenwriting - all stuff that seems to elude RTD, who manages to recycle the same old bollocks time after time, and explains any gaping plot holes (of which there are usually loads in his work) with badly written techoshite or just completely ignores them.
And before anyone tries the whole "If RTD were as shit as you say he wouldn't get his shows on TV" - 14 million people - HALF THE VIEWING POPULATION OF THE UK - watched THE X FACTOR on Saturday. A talent show where all the talent has been voted off, and the remaining shows are basically a cross between a circus, a pantomime and a great big shit I took this morning. And yet, half this chav-thick country are ENJOYING it.
Just because lots of people like something, does NOT mean that the something is any good. Lots of people enjoyed the Kool-Aid at Jonestown - for a few minutes, anyway. It's amazing how fucking dumb humans can get when influenced by that infamous "herd mentality"... -
The Ood weren't powerful enough to break free of the Beast's psychic power or the mind-numbing field in PLANET OF THE OOD, so they can't be THAT powerful. You have a point about the Dalek - it COULD have been recalled to the Dalek Crucible. Bit lazy though - the doctor seems to think it knew she wasn't meant to die, even though surely the Doctor would have known Daleks can't read time like Time Lords can!
As for what you say about Season 3... the Shakespeare Code was DULL? BLINK and HUMAN NATURE / FAMILY OF BLOOD were DULL? As opposed to Dobby the Time Elf and the amazing psychic field that turns Time Lords into GODS??
That three-part finale was far and away the worst part of ANY of the new Who seasons so far. And as for what Moffat is doing... Imagine the old Who series were beautifully detailed oil paintings. RTD took new Who, blew off the dust, and reproduced the shows in primary colours - some in felt tips, most in Crayola. Some of the more talented writers painted the new shows in detailed acrylic - some even apporaching oil standard. Moffat has taken the old-school approach - using a new medium to paint old pictures. His Doctor will be more like the Doctors of old, but retaining the production values and new vitality that new Who has, and will bring the two together better than RTD ever could. Prepare to see DR WHO done as it SHOULD be done - BRILLIANTLY. -
Nov 16, 2009 8:34:47 AM CST
"The Doctor, Doctor and...er....fun."
by isleptwithkathybatesandallthatigotwasthi
This episode was fantastic! I'll be picking up the DVD!!!!
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"'The Dr. pops up at random in a place where no one is supposed to be, deaths start happening at random, and a scene or two later the captain is running down corridors ALONE with the Dr?'
Have you ever watched the show before? This is pretty much standard."
I will concede that that is to some degree or another a standard plot element (and necessary to avoid much needless 'negotiating' as a part of every episode), but here it just seemed glaring, and usually there is -some- attempt to explain himself. The setting in this episode precluded the usual sort of "I'm just travelling through" explanation, and it bugs me that otherwise rational characters just shrug it off. -
Nov 16, 2009 8:37:25 AM CST
This is why the Time Lord Society Needs to Come back
by darfurontherocks2
The Doctor was always more interesting, when like Superman, he was not near-omnipotent. RTD wrote himself into a corner when he did away with Galifrey and I hope that he can undo the damage that he started and have Galifrey's destruction be undone via some machination.... (My personal fav would be the Key of Time)
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Nov 16, 2009 8:39:14 AM CST
I am Guessing that the Ood are a Manifestation of the Time Lords
by darfurontherocks2
That particular Ood knows way too much and is obviously something else altogether...
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I agree about Blink and the Shakespeare Code, but I personally am not a fan of the Human Nature storyline. I know a shit load of people love it, but for me, it does nothing.
And yeah maybe the mini doctor goblin was a step too far, but otherwise i loved the madness of those 3 final eps in season 3.
As for the Ood, they were trying to escape from THE DEVIl.
And as for the new season, you talk of vitality and new ideas, explain to me how using Daleks (again) in a WW2 setting (again) is in anyway an original idea???!!!??? -
I am not bashing the Doctor here.... but does anyone feel that his actions against the Clone Doctor a la last season who he banished to be with Rose (some banishment, I'll take that punishment any day of the week!) In is momentary madness the Doctor is claiming to be Time Lord Victorious.... Why? In my opinion the Time Lords lost the war because the Daleks came back numerous times and all the representation that the TLs get is the Doc and Master.... Anyways... the Doctor 2.0 seems to have acted just like the original did in this story....
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that otherwise sane characters brush off. Like why the Doctor doesn't seem to change his clothes much. Or how they seem to speak English everywhere.
The new who series made a stab at some explainations, like the psychic paper, to explain how the Doctor can get around to all those places he shouldn't.
But I actually preferred it when such things were only hinted at.
For example, Sarah Jane (who we all know now because of her resurgence in the new show) back in the old days, "Masque of Mandragora" was once hypnotised by the bad guy in the show. While under the influence, one of the characters spoke Latin, and she remarked she didn't speak Latin. Then said "I don't speak Italian either, but I can understand you." Or something to that effect.
And that was what clued the Doctor in that something was amiss. She'd never commented on it before.
In the novelisations and other add-ons to canon, it is explained by the Tardis's telepathic circuits, auto-translating for any companion to the Doctor. But the slight-of-hand/slight-of-mind trick, where they never seem to think about it.. that's only ever vaguely been hinted at, that it's the Doctor subtly influencing their minds.
Anyway, my point was just that rational characters often shrug stuff off in the show, and as a long term fan I've gotten used to it, and no small amount of fan-wanking ret-conning explanations have been tendered over the years. -
Eccelstons Asain friend is a Christian. They do mention it ( I own the DVD, and actually fucking love that film!). Also I didnt mind the gay explosion in it, as it was a few years ago in my RTD watching life. Its been the constant shoe-ins in every episode of anything he's ever done SINCE then that I object to.
And Im a dirty great faggot anyways! You'd think I'd be up for youth been corrupted by our dirty, immoral ways lol -
Or gratuitous? I await enlightenment...People used to react in the same way to women and black people on TV, humanity has a long way to go eh.TWOM was an exciting and entertaining episode.
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But then, the Doctor is someone who walks that fine line between genius and madness.
Way back in Face of Evil, he was responsible for creating the mad A.I. Xonanon, just because he was a bit loopy during a regeneration.
And during his 5th regeneration (from Davison to Colin Baker) he tried to kill his companion because he thought she was an evil pixie.
And let's not even mention The Valeyard. -
The Doctor going slightly mad with power echoed the Valeyard, there weren't any references to Billie anywhere and the story had a greater significance than the deceptive base under siege premise suggested. All in all, I rather enjoyed it. Was that Ood perhaps meant to be a Watcher?
The gadget robot looked cheap and nasty as did some of the sets, but I imagine they were designed to be survive being doused in lots of water rather than to look flashy. Roll on Christmas! -
The Captains was a major story point so to the people saying the only sexuality mentioned was gay are wrong, what they mean is the only sexuality the picked up on was the one they unsurprisingly have issues with, 5 years no awareness, almost seems like they don't want to better themselves.
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in my post above. I think it explains it well enough.
If you think you might find it funny, check out on youtube Doug Stanhopes clip about "The Jews". It's a similar theme, in that they both have terms like homophobic or anti-semite, used to paint broad strokes on anyone they don't like.
And that some people always take their Jewishness into *every* conversation "Well, because I'm a jew, blah blah blah blah.."
The point he ultimately makes, is that if you define yourself so completely by one thing like that? It makes you out to be pretty fucking shallow. -
Straight men define us as gay to the core, were not cheapening ourselves by mentioning who we are, we are liberating ourselves, if you say it makes us shallow then what does that say of the people who jump all over every gay mention? RTD is gay, write what you know is a given, the rest immaterial as its always done in a light and kind way, we exist and now we are mentioned in certain TV shows, deal.
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Easily the best of all the new episodes.
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I'm sorry, but there isnt a difference between intergrating homosexuality into a story, and doing it just because RTD can. He does it in such an unsubtle way that it always jars the viewer, if it were simply part of the story then no one would care.
Captain jack is clearly a gay character, and a much loved one amongst all fans straight or gay, why? Because it isnt forced, it is simply a part of fluid storytelling.
Its not the homosexual content people are complaining about, far from it, i think you will find most peoples attitude on here is very accepting of other people sexuality, but we are complaining about RTD ridiculous attempts to incorparate gay characters into a story! Yes they have a place, but only when it justifies or is justified by the story. Not just for the sake of it! -
For 5 years now I have attempted to offer a counter point to one type of views, for 5 years no headway has been made, Smashing can take a hint (eventually) Can't we stick to talking about the show and not minor content issues? and lets be fair for a gay man RTD has not at all been OTT with it, he could have done a lot more, If mentioning homosexuality is annoying and off putting to certain people then why do they keep bringing it up everytime a new episode is on? it's starting to depress me, I know I cannot go to a Who talkback without being mortally offended or upset, tired of it now.
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I couldn't give a flying monkey fuck if you're gay or straight. If I met you face to face, the only thing I'd care about is whether you were an asshole.
If every single conversation we ever had was started by you going "Well, as a gay man,.." I'd think you were an asshole.
"Where do you want to go watch the game?""
"Well, as a gay man, I think this pub is better."
"Are you going to watch 2012?"
"Well, as a gay man, I think those movies are mindless."
Ad-nauseum. -
People have gay families, one character, one, mentioned his gay brother, once, that was it, if that to you is unsubtle then your literally missing the point, gay people are a part of society and RTD is mentioning us as he is one, it's hardly unexpected and no matter how he does it people cry foul, no matter how.... Ood e?
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was built into the story naturally?
I'd cite the father in Season 1's "Doctor Dances" episode. It didn't matter that he was gay. He could easily have been straight and been blackmailed over having an affair. But he was having an affair with the butcher, a man. A big deal in WW2 and something he'd want to keep secret.
That's an example of where it was worked in to the story, and not shoe-horned in.
In an off-topic example... Look at how something like Heroes made a BIG BIG deal out of the cheerleader getting a lesbian kiss on the lips (no tongue) which lasted a second or so. And compare that with the way we saw Tara and Willow kiss for the first time in Buffy.
One is crassly shoe-horned into the story. One evolves naturally from the characters. And you know what? I complained about the Heroes lesbian dumb shit, and didn't complain about the Buffy stuff. And it's not because I love lesbians and hate gay men.
Captain Jack is also a great character, and it's not like I find him "tolerable" because he'll also sleep with women. It makes sense that by the 51st century gender/species won't matter a whole hell of a lot when it comes to sex. -
You say you don't care but you obviously do, your analogy is not a good example of the situation either.
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He has children and had a grand kid remember.
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sad days, the equalizer has gone....
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RTD does make it a point to include a gay character in most of his shows, nothing wrong with that. I just don't like how it is hammered over the head all the time. For example, Captain Jack is a rather complex character and has some great moments. However, We must always know he is bisexual and likes men and women constantly. Straight or gay people do not constantly discuss their sexuality all of the time. It does nothing to progress the story. I do have a problem with Ionto. Does one just "become" gay? Seems to trivialize people that are gay in my opinion. As far as plot, I hated the Ionto Jones character anyway. He does nothing. He's like a whiny Alfred. The only difference is that Alfred has significance to the story of Batman. Ionto acts as a makeshift boyfriend for Captain Jack, nothing more.
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So you think RTD inclusion of gay characters is subtle and always well judged and contributes to the story?
I have zero problems with Doctor WHo having gay characters, Captain Jack is one of the best characters the sereis has ever, and i have met John Barrowman, he is awesome.
Im complaininig about is RTD terrible way of including it in his stories, -
Re Uhuru yeah, some people are black, but do we have to see one shoe-horned in to every episode of the show? Every week there's something about people getting along without discrimination. We get the message Gene, I'm sick of this constant treating-people-as-human-beings agenda.
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I really don't care. In fact, this is the first time I've ever gotten involved in the RTD-gay aspect of a talkback, despite the fact that I've been in every single Dr Who talkback on AICN.
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He makes a point to spotlight that aspect of them and not other qualities: bravery, friendship, selflessness. Those are after we find out they are gay. Besides, if he has to mention it almost with a compulsory attitude, then has acceptance actually taken place? In order to be fully accepted the issue shouldn't be brought up with such ferocity.
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Absolutely correct sir.
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That's exactly what I have been trying to say, no one here has a problem with gay characters, but having them forced into a story in such ways as RTD does, is surely a counterproductive idea.
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Don't know why I keep giving this show a chance. Watched it last night via BBC iPlayer and was again unsurprised to find it was utter cack. Tennant is fucking awful. Losing Ecclestone an having that hack fucking writer has really made this show nothing more than a joke.
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I agree with everything you say. All hail the Grand Moff!
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The Unquiet Dead, Father's Day, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Tooth and Claw, The Girl in the Fireplace, The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, Human Nature/The Family of Blood, Blink, Utopia, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead and Midnight.
Anybody yet to check out the new Who should watch this list of episodes, great stuff. -
Every time someone points out a glaringly placed, nothing-to-do-with-the-narrative gay reference as the obviously soapbox-bashing it so obviously is, you pop up and give us this "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" spiel. We get it. There's nothing wrong with being gay. The irony is, I hardly ever hear anyone on here ever saying it IS wrong to be gay. Like me, they all have the same gripe -
RTD DOESN'T USE IT AS PART OF THE PLOT - IT'S UNSUBTLE, AMATEURISH, AND SOAPBOX-BASHING PC BOX-TICKING SOCIAL CONDITIONING!!
If there was a Companion in Doctor Who who insisted on praying in EVERY episode, who insisted on mentioning "what would Jesus do?" in EVERY episode, you'd very soon have a new WHO TB full of talkbackers bitching about the overt Christian agenda being dragged into DR WHO. ANY AGENDA PUSHING IS WRONG!! That's how good writing is - it introduces every detail into the narrative as one of three things: (1) a way to move the plot forwards, (2) a way to deepen the character in ways that will pay off later on, and (3) a way to set something up in the narrative that will happen or pay off later. Can you give me any reason why us knowing that Yuri's brother Mikhail is gay did any of those three things?
Nope. Because it's RTD standing on his well-worn-out soapbox, throwing in a gay reference in every one of his episodes of DR WHO, simply to prove that he's unafraid to do so, but in a way that belies his obviously hopeless grasp of the mechanics of storytelling. His lack of said skills also explains the massive lack of logic he has in his shows, the lack of intelligent rationality for why certain things happen the way they do, and the way characters will do a 180-degree turn and act completely opposite to how their characters would act, with no internal or external impetus to do so whatsoever, EXCEPT TO FIT A PLOT POINT - also awful writing.
The gay agenda is RTD trying to still be controversial, and failing, as he constantly highlights how shit his writing really is.
Oh, and if 1 in 10 people is gay/bi in real life, then if RTD is being proportionally representative of the gay/bi minority, there should be 1 gay reference for every 9 straight references, shouldn't there? Or is this a case of "positive" discrimination against the straight characters in the series?
Fuck the PC politics... Just give me some decent stories already!!! -
Also he created the Captain Jack character not RTD, so much in-correctness, when I was young nerds cared about facts. People can hold any opinion they like but as usual the justification for the anger is out of whack with the alleged crime committed, I call bigots and as such won't waste any more time on it, well until Xmas and the hate starts again.
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Never gave a shite about the new Dr. Who and still don't.R.I.P., Callan. You shall be missed.
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Didnt Steven Moffat write almost every one of those episodes?
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You said what I've been trying to say for several years now in one succinct post. I bow to your superior concise-ness.
Mad vocab skills, yo... -
Justify your hate all you like, gussy it up all pretty like, put make up on it and a beautiful dress and fuck it in the town square in front of your adoring public for all I care, your still fucking a dodgy, hate ridden old carcass, and it stinks.
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And i wont be watching when Moffat takes over, and before you go all super crazy, it has nothing to do with him being gay.
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Bringing high camp to the Tharks.
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There's no bigots on here, just people sick of hearing the same old thing being bashed over our heads repeatedly. Yes, we get it - RTD is gay, you're gay, Moffat's gay, Col Tigh-Fighter the fucking PROFESSIONAL is gay! Great! None of us have a problem with any of that. We DO have a problem with how glaringly out of sync with every one of his episodes RTD's gay references are. You know what we're getting at, you're smart enough to understand, but as a committed heterophobe you're just causing trouble for the sake of it.
One very important point that has been brought up several times over here - In Moffat's episodes THE EMPTY CHILD and THE DOCTOR DANCES, Captain Jack's sexuality is a part of the NARRATIVE - it explains why he cracks onto Rose AND the Doctor, and it sets up his character as a guy who leads with his dick, not his brain, and that has gotten him in trouble time after time. Contrast this with the two-dimensional portrayal of Captain Jack RTD always writes - whose sexuality is his one truly defining characteristic - and you'll see the difference between great writing that uses sexuality as a character trait (Moffat's) with writing that uses sexuality as an issue-of-the-day which will be preached at you regardless of the narrative and as such drag you out of the episode while RTD continually throws his "Ooh, controversial, a GAY character in a mainstream programme!" card at you over and over again. Boring and predictable as fuck.
Smashing, tell me you see the difference?... -
He has a wife. What are you basing the "Moffat is gay" on?
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I should try to be above it but hey...
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But if it was it wouldnt make any fucking difference, because all we care about is the quality of the shows writing!!!
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Just local posters with local opinions mistakenly thinking the vocal majority is the real one.
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And you know my mind so much better than I do myself, then tell me this...
Why did I enjoy BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN? Or the Willow-Tara relationship in BUFFY? Or the Moffay two-parter THE EMPTY CHILD and THE DOCTOR DANCES?
Oh, that's right. I must be lying to myself...
There's only one hatemonger on here, Smashing, and it's YOU. The rest of us just want our stories told to us by someone who DOESN'T have an axe to grind and is prepared to fuck up every story he tells by putting his personal politics above the narrative. -
At no point has Spud been hatefilled or bigoted. In fact the only hate-filled rant was from you just then. Way to lose an argument and (perceived) high moral ground. Fucking tool!
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So I don't know if you're just troll baiting, or trying to see if people suddenly turn on him, or what.
It's sad that you're so focused on something so utterly trivial. -
Don't bother trying - Smashing is so fixated on how much he thinks EVERY heterosexual hates anyone who isn't homosexual (despite glaring evidence to the contrary)that he just doesn't get what you're saying. He's smart, he understands, but it doesn't jibe with his worldview so you're wrong and he's right. He's a fundamentalist heterophobe who just won't listen to what anyone else has to say. There are none so blind as those who will not see...
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We were all discussing somehting, in a pleasant and non homophobic way, and then Smashing barged in and turned his own prejudices onto us!
Serious tool. We all tried to have a civilised conversation with the guy, but, you just cant talk to biggots. -
Moffat wrote those episodes, but I was under the impression that RTD specifically created the character and asked for Jack to be written in there - sexuality and all. And as RTD has final script approval on ALL new WHO eps, that's probably how it went down.
And as RTD is a confirmed concept thief, I don't think the name Captain Jack - chosen when PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN mania was at its height - was a coincidence either... -
reference to a characters orientation. But I'm sure there was at least one where it was subtle and was plot related.
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I've had some very intelligent, interesting, civilised debates about this subject over and over again in new WHO TBs past. For some reason today he seems to be on a short fuse. Time of the month or something...
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to be honest i have spent all afternoon trying to think of an unsubtle gay reference, and im coming up blank.
Any that are in there were written by someone else. -
Stuff to do, people to see. Worlds to save...
Have fun, play nice, and don't be too rough on Smashing - usually he's okay, today he seems to be a bit more touchy than usual...
WTF am I saying?? This is AICNNNNNNNNNN!! Have it it, guys!! -
Stuff to do, people to see. Worlds to save...
Have fun, play nice, and don't be too rough on Smashing - usually he's okay, today he seems to be a bit more touchy than usual...
WTF am I saying?? This is AICNNNNNNNNNN!! Have at it, guys!! -
I believe we all just want good genre fiction. Am I right? The best themes and ideas of social issues come subtlety from plot points not from being preachy. Why would we all rather watch fiction or read it instead of listening to a sermon or lecture? I know I love my morals in stories. Seems to have worked throughout history so why change it.
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...was the worst part of the series. Simm's Master was a let down - totally overwritten bonkers psycho (Tennant was more The Master for 10 minutes during WOM than the Simm characterisation).
That said, Utopia was EXCELLENT. If you didn't get chills when Jacobi finally opened the pocket watch then I feel sorry for you. -
I don't think so, I don't agree with a word you wrote about me so the need isn't there, try and paint me as something I'm not if you have to but addressing the points I made above might be wiser.
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I can't see why people think it was odd for the Doctor to flip like that, it's pretty clearly been building up for a while.
While sometime's RTD's gay references are squeezed in, I don't see why this one was an issue. For RTD making the brother gay is as arbitrary as making him a brother rather than a sister.
One of the reviews mentioned the needless death of characters. I always have more problem with the needless survival of characters. These are supposed to be life and death situations, people should die dammit!
And the systematic killing of the crew was very much the catalyst for the Doctor's breakdown. -
I think all your points were addressed, but i dont really want to have an argument with anyone, you think one thing, and we think another.
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When we look back on Classic Trek, for example... which of these do we remember as furthering race relations?
1) Having a black female officer on the bridge
2) The first televised inter-racial kiss?
3) That ridiculous episode where a guy whose face was black on the left and white on the right, HATED this other guy whose face was white on the left, and black on the right.
Even in the 60's, there was such a thing as unsubtle shitty story telling. -
maybe you missed the unsubtle ones? ;-)
Just teasing!
I thought the one in Midnight was pretty subtle. Consisted of the word "she" once and that was it. -
I truly hope he will be brilliant (though casting an 11 year old as The Doctor hasn't exactly gotten my hopes up), but I think a lot of RTD-bashers on here are looking at Moff and assuming he will solve all their gripes at one fell swoop. Don't be too gutted if you don't get what you want overnight.
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Please succinctly summarise them for me again (ideally with numberical or bullet points) so I can come back and knock them down again with my customary breeziness, and - dare I say it? - SPECTACULAR grasp of mass debating.
You never made any points! And if you DID - then WHERE?? -
not one of them questioned the sidearm carried by the very annoying captain. was it there to keep her crew in order? i'm really surprised why she was armed wasn't brought up. to my knowledge neil armstrong wasn't armed when he went to the moon.
in many ways this seemed like filler, lazily written and the 'monsters' - why do most of the monsters end up being zombie like with less stage prescense than tor johnson - made no sense physically. they spew water yet they have dry cracked skin.
the robot was unwelcome the moment it started talking (gadget, gadget? somebody just watched phantom menace i think). the endless running was tiresome, and the over the top performance by lindsay duncan made me hope she'd be the first to die.
as for the ending, with the captain returning to earth and presumably blowing her head off in the living room, how is that supposed to inspire the granddaughter to follow in her footsteps?
in all i wish this episode had been one where the doctor meets river song again and maybe even gets a glimpse of is future self, thus making the inevitable death more meaningful.
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I think the Moff will reboot this programme with a more old-School WHO feel, but unlike a lot of fans I think he'll hit the ground running. You have to admit, THE EMPTY CHILD, BLINK, THE GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE and SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY have ALL been awesome (especially the whole River Song thing! I hope that gets more explanation) so I have faith in the Grand Moff. And if it starts slowly... well, give the man time. RTD did a good job rebooting with ROSE, I think Moff will do just fine. And he has Karen Gillan - and she's a GREAT actress...
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I knew that. : ) By now who on Earth wouldn't?
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I'm back later. Have fun, Whoobies!!
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Go read mine and discover them yourself.
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Yeah, but i dont exactly consider that one to be subtle, what purpose does it serve to the story, and they way it goes all quiet and empasisies that she said 'She'.
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Between you falsely claiming I give a fuck as to your orientation, and then falsely claiming that Steven Moffat was gay, I guess I just missed them.
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I haven't watched it for a while, but I don't remember thinking it was emphasized myself. Just because it didn't drive the story forward doesn't make it unsubtle. And how would her saying "he" made any difference. Like I said, to RTD sexuality is just another random character choice, like gender, hair colour etc
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Its not uncommon but I can give you several plausible reasons.
1) Humanity, at that stage, will have known for years about aliens. So why not have arms on the mission?
2) Any time there's the potential for the leader to make decisions which can impact the lives of those under his/her command, it makes sense to carry a side-arm. It's been that way ever since World War 1.
Suppose she has to decide to leave someone behind, or decided to cut off someone who was in a punctured part of the base, etc... Having the side-arm makes sure that unpopular orders still get followed. -
Seriously, if people think that's better, they're nuts!
It's nice enough, for the nippers, and the ending of the Doctor appearance was darker than I expected, but that's about it! -
You took my anger at the gay baiting and turned it right back on me to denigrate and demean me and my points, super clever dude, totally like high school and awesomely effective in ignoring points you have no answers for.Plus for someone who repeatedly claims not to give a fuck you sure do act like someone who does.
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For the only reason in that it serves no purpose to the narrative. That makes it bad story-telling. At first it did serve a purpose: To remind us that we do live in a culturally and philosophically diverse universe. However, RTD failed to understand that we got the point years ago. As such I believe that RTD's portrayal of homosexuality is hopelessly one dimensional. It is akin to seeing 90210 present sexuality.... Over-simplistic and ultimately stereotypical...
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It's SO FUCKING TRUE!!!
I'm really looking forward to Grand Moffat taking over. -
Nov 16, 2009 10:50:39 AM CST
The gay stuff never bothered me. What bothers me the most....
by royston lodge
...is The Doctor falling in love with his companions. Again and again.
It's just wrong.
Wrong wrong wrong! -
And as I mentioned before (and really, once should be enough), this is the first time I've ever bothered getting into the whole gay / Dr Who aspect of a talkback. And it was in response to your posted question of just 2 hours ago.
So if disagreeing with you over the space of 2 hours is enough to somehow make me a homophobe, or a hater of gays, then you've got some weird definition of the term. -
My vote is for the Daleks....
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I totally accept that sometime the sexuality is bad ly done (first season of Torchwood for example, gay or straight, sex was handle so badly) but what was one dimensional about the use last night? The sexuality was irrelevant and would have been irrelevant if the brother was straight. It was a moment about the character on the base.
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Oh yeah, that was excellent! I shall be playing on the final two!
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...all the standard RTD character mix was there eg. people from any time period talking and acting like they are from the late 20th/early 21st century. The big 'Doctor Victorious' ending was ruined by the suicide, and then the Ood showing up-one of the most boring alien races we've seen! God, even the trailer for the next episode looked lazy, do we REALLY have to go back to Donna? WHO CARES? Roll on Steven and Matt!!!!
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The Doctor only fell in love with Rose, and maybe Madam De pompadour.
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Nov 16, 2009 10:56:22 AM CST
I heard that the Black and White Guardians are Lovers....
by darfurontherocks2
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...wear under his clothes? A leotardus. Actual joke, told to me by my eleven year old daughter this weekend. Hoping it's her mom's side.
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If we are to look at the whole RTD series however it does seem out of place.... The main problem that I have with the gay portrayal is the requisite flamboyance that we get with RTD's portrayal. My question is why cannot a gay character have a serious conversation? The straight characters seem to talk to their family like normal people do. Why is the gay conversation about presents and buying crap on credit yadda yadda yadda...? Also, where is the Lesbian representation?
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Fair point, tho I think that it was more just about being a funny story, but yeah, i guess it was another flamboyant gay thing going on there.
Midnight had a lesbian, that's been about it! Did Torchwood have some girl on girl in the first season? (I have blocked most of it out of my mind) -
though it was subtle, it didn't have anything to do with the plot or anything.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/oct/20/bbc.television
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This is the dark who I've been waiting for, I hope the next two episodes expand on him going further down the tunnel. I like RTD and Moffat's writing both, but I'm not sure I like the NuNuNuWho's casting direction nor costume design.
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Nov 16, 2009 11:24:58 AM CST
can't believe that no one pointed out the doctors space suit li
by notspock2
making him look more and more skeletal/death like as he walked away from the mars base...
That image really sold me on the doctor going back and was particularly good direction...
Next stop Adric? or does taste play a part in who he saves and who he let's die?
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but you KNOW RTD will Deus ex machina them out for the final shot - I'd bet money on it. And that sums up his dramatic flaw up in a nutshell: he can write a good tease and build up when needed but nothing that is ultimately satisfying nor have the balls to follow through.
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The little thrown-in bits they have characters saying such as "His husband etc etc..." were cool in the beginning, but now it's a little bit like, Okay, okay we get it. Maybe some time needs to pass before it stops feeling like a deliberate effort to draw attention to it. I'm sure it's not a deliberate part of any "gay agenda" but it has that feeeel, you know? Gay marriage needs to get a little more overt in our society at this point so it doesn't feel like a scripted "gotcha!" moment.
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I agree that his endings can be dissapointing (see season 3, yes the Master was a bit OTT but the build up was good, last episode baaaad) but I think it is less about having the balls and more that he is just weak on the sci fi element. My main bug bear about the show since the relaunch.
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...that "guy" with the painted face was Frank "fuckin' Emmy winner" Gorshin. Riddle my ass. As far as the gay themes in Who and Torchwood, they don't bother me, but a lot of them come off as a bit precious, and their protrayal as immature. Contrast some of Captain Jack's dimpled winks to the camera with the moment in The Wire where you found out Omar was gay, for just one example. And I know, comparing anything else to The Wire is unfair. One facet of his life is that he's gay, and since he is gay he is sort of used to being gay. And just by the way, Omar the gay guy is the coolest badass in Baltimore. With a lot of RTD's things (and way too much of Captain Jack's) you get more..."I'm going to turn this, access that, save the world...and I'm gay!"
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I'm surprised that RTD didn't copy the robot design from Bender... (see what I did there?)
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yep to the lack of a sci fi element or indeed something greater than visual elements. A lot of people say it's too much to expect from a mere kids-family adventure show like Who, but seriously what else do we have over here to compare it to?
Sure proportionately theres so much crap but US networks have big dramas and flagship shows - what do we have? On Freeview 95% of it are repeats from the main stations and endless music stations, on the main stations we get sodding bland soaps like Coronation Street.
The sci fi element to me are the ideas it pitches to kids and the audience. We don't NEED another monster of the week adventure show - they only go so far. That's why ep's like Family of Blood and Blink work so well - they aren't about the enemy themselves, more over the threat they pose (or with FOB their ultimate fates, like the twitch in the back of a mirror for the girl) and how the audience can interpersonalise them (I know that kids responded insanely well to Blink as much as the adults since they can use their IMAGINATION to ponder on how it could be true to life...he heh)
In terms of directly the Sci-fi element I'd love to see a series of DW take place mainly OFF modern day Earth. The makers may argue you need to ground it in reality to gain the audience but you don't - you can still have perfectly good dramatic conflict without the Doctor continually bumping into humans in the middle of sodding London -
this was one of RTD's better episodes i thought, emotion wasnt overdone like in the olympics one or the season 4 finale. as for the gay references, the one in this episode was ok but most of the time it is just pointless. if their sexuality mattered as part of the plot, fine, but it never does, so why mention it in such an offhand way? also worried about the return of catherine tate who is just awful! Hopefully moffat will improve the show. oh and not that it matters but whoever said above that hes gay is wrong, hes married to one of the producers!
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Absolutely, although I think it was deliberate to make moderm day centric when relaunching to establish the show, and it is less so now, but I'd like to see that decrease even more.
I think that's partly cost though. Off world episodes just cost more to do well. And if there is one thing this talk back proves, the expectation level is insanely high, certainly among the geek community who look back at the old series with rediculously rose tinted glasses. I have alot of the old series on DVD and video, and I love 'em, but they aren't everything peope say they are sometimes! -
waters of mars was good in that the focus wasn't the monsters of the week, but the breaking of the Doctors resolve to play by the rules. I enjoyed this idea and hope it isn't swept away in the next ep.
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Moffat is married to a TV producer, but not one of the producers on Who.
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See, you are saying homosexuality should only be there as a plot element, but that's just not how life is. Gay characters should be sprinkled in fiction randomly cos that's how it is in life.
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The old series would probably have teens running for the hills, and christ I was born in 82 so Mccoy was my Doc :) RTD addressed their faults quite directly in interview - the inclusion of things like the 'one fix for all' sonic screwdriver was to resolve plot humps that got previous incarnations stumped for 45min. Fine, although RTD went too far the other way in it's overuse taking away it's impact.
I'm only 27 but one thing I feel is sad with a show like Doctor Who is you don't need bombastic CGI landscapes or hollywood style drama pacing. Want to set it off world? If the drama and script is good, get a cardboard box and put eyes on it for your alien - hell it worked in the 60's :) -
Nov 16, 2009 12:10:22 PM CST
Maybe the gayness seems out of place precisely because...
by royston lodge
... nobody ever seems to have a problem with it.
It's always presented so "matter-of-factly", which may feel quite opposite from real life. Nobody ever turns their nose up at Captain Jack, or turns around and says, "ew, gross!" when he says sumthin' gay.
This trend was especially on display during the WWII episode of Torchwood. It's no "matter-of-fact" that it breaks suspension of disbelief. -
Why is it that a token gay character is okay but a character being gay being held at the same level of importance as his hair colour is wrong? It wasn't overblown, it was one fucking word but people still sulked about it and made the usual snide references
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Oh believe me, i wish it were true. But I think the McCoy years (I'm 1980, so I remember McCoy clearest too) showed that bad budgets kill science fiction. Rewatching them there are some great ideas, some great scripts, but it's killed by the budget!
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I'll give you that with the WW2 stuff, but in the modern day, most peopel wouldn't say anything obvious or public most of the time (maybe behind their hand to their mates).
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"I'll give you" I mean I thought exactly the same thing!
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Loved the episode, DT was amazing, you can tell he's just going for it big style.
His hair is getting a bit crazy though.
Roll on Xmas.
And RIP Edward Woodward - British acting LEGEND.
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...I think it's a very RARE straight person who has ZERO reaction when a gay friend does something really gay in front of them. No matter how used to it one might be, there's almost always some little voice in the back of their head going, "uh, that's a wee bit strange, innit?"
The way RTD consistently denies any of the characters any license to express that little voice, made it seem unreal.
Caveat: I didn't watch a lot of Torchwood, so I fully admit there may have been more of this sorta stuff in the episodes I never saw. -
I can't say I react beyond a possible "get a room" which would do gay or straight. I suppose it depends how much time you spend around open homosexuals. But to go into that would certainly be detremental to moving the plot forward (and would definately get RTD slammed for banging on about being gay).
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... like, the way Robert Downey Jr. is obviously bothered on some level by Val Kilmer, but he doesn't dare say so because Kilmer's the badass between the two of them.
If RTD had directed Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, then there would have been one reference to Kilmer's sexual orientation early in the movie, it never would have been mentioned again, no other character would ever be allowed to express ANY feelings about it, and then Kilmer would have made out with some dude in the final act for no apparent reason. It's like the audience is told in no uncertain terms, "you are not allowed to have an opinion on this." It doesn't ring true. -
But it seems that, in RTD-Land, you aren't even allowed to react on that level.
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that it isn't what the story is about. In other works RTD has more thoroughly examined people's attitudes when it comes to sexual orientation.
I think you are building up a level of conspiracy that doesn't exist. -
Unfortunately, that depends where you live and who you hang out with. Many places in the UK (including the last two places I've worked), you are badly out of place if you are not brutally homophobic and horrifically racist. There's no behind their hand to their mates about it; it's just normal.
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Well yeah, that's true. I live in nice middle class Winchester, where the people are no less bigotted I find, just farrrr too polite to be bigoted out loud. That would just be so common!
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...about the gay thing, why does it matter to you so much? Big deal. Homophobes always make the most noise over this stuff under the banner 'commonsense'. No one really minds/cares unless it rankles with them on a personal level. And anyway, the most important thing about the episode was...would it have killed you to have shown us a few old-style Ice Warriors?!? Or are they still to come??
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I mind/care not because it rankles with me on a personal level, but because it's just plain BAD WRITING. It's like those ads for schools and organizations where they have obviously gone out of their way to include every ethnic minority possible smiling and laughing together (and one of them is in a wheelchair--bonus points if it's not the white male). It's forced and uncomfortable and takes you out of the moment, which is something that RTD does not only with his sexuality references but also some of his dialogue and expository devices (e.g. the "newsflash"). It's just bad writing, and that's what disappoints me, because I actually love about 90% of what RTD does with Who, but that remaining 10% takes me out of the moment and leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
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Yeah, I'm tired of doom and gloom. Yeah, that's the state of the world.
Yeah, I still HATE it.
And now we've even lost Breaker Morant...again. -
Nov 16, 2009 2:11:17 PM CST
Yeah, it's not the choice of subject matter, it's the delivery.
by royston lodge
It's hard to put a finger on it, but the way he writes it into the scripts doesn't seem at all natural. It's like he says out loud, "it's not what it's about, and if you think that's what it's about then you're wrong," which is precisely why it becomes what it's about. It's so obviously hidden in plain sight. There are many other movies and shows that deal with the same stuff without taking the viewer "out of the moment".
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On some occasions I'd agree with you. But sometimes it seems like people have made up their mind about RTD and they are just looking for it, there was nothing unnatural about the scene in last night's and it certainly didn't take me out of it.
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The actual "sci-fi"content of the new Doctor Who has been very patchy indeed. Hence Moffat's "Blink" episode becoming the fan favourite - not necessarily because of the frightening 'monster of the week' (more or less Russell T. Davies' only formula), but because of the clever device of the 'recordings the Doctor sends back in time': a true science fiction concept.
Readers of a certain age will remember the genuinely disturbing ideas in otherwise cheap TV shows of the seventies such as "Sapphire & Steel" and "The Stone Tapes" and "Children of the Stones" etc etc. This is the sort of thing people are looking for now. Not some daft pantomime, and nor do "Doctor Who" audiences want slick American creations like "Fringe" either. All the slick American studio shows fail to achieve "disturbing". By their nature they are too slick and thus too fake.
Russell T Davies made the fundamental mistake of latching onto the "man in a monster suit" component of classic Doctor Who, while Stephen Moffat has clearly shown a much more sophisticated understanding of what it takes to really satisfy those "What If?" questions that hard core science fiction fans love. -
I totally agree, all his episodes hae been great so far. I really hope series 5 (I can't be arsed to start with another series 1) is great. But I'm not going to assume that just cos it's the Moff it will be ace. I'd rather it was brilliant and I was pleased than I got my hopes up and it was naff (and again, the 11 year old Doctor has me very worried).
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Matt Smith is going to be fine as the new Doctor. The new series' success will almost totally depend on the storylines, and if the storylines are clever and creepy enough, everyone will soon warm to Smith's version of the character.
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this. i could be wrong but wasnt this first dr who to be broadcast on a sunday.
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ok gadget was irritating, some of the characters were a bit unbelievable, but it was all about tennant- he had no companion so they could focus on the dr loosing and i think that was done quite well.
And once again rampant fear of catching gay stomps all over aicn talkbacks- there was 1 tiny reference to a gay couple. You lot are acting like you were just forced to watch 2 guys and 1 cup.
If you lot werent actually homophobes a single 30 second gay reference in a 1hr tv show wouldnt get you rushing out of your trailers,firing up your crosses and gatherin the locals at the lynchin tree.
bunch of backward, immature, insecure, uneducated bigots.
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You hated the flying bus!!!!!!!!!!!! My favorite part of that special!!!!!!
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Hi my names Lockesbrokenleg! I don't like anything! I moan about everything! Nothing that i say is of any importance!I open my mouth and all people hear is: "Wa wa wa wa wa".
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This was the first non-Christmas-day episode to be shown on a Sunday.
But Christmas has fallen on different days in the last few years (as it does), and so 'The Christmas Invasion' went out on a Sunday. -
RTD gay references are like watching any version of Star Wars, at some point someone is going to say "I have a bad feeling about this.", and BAM I'm taken out of the scene for a brief second.
Or ANY time that goddam Wilhelm scream happens in anything, it pulls me out of the scene because the sound guy decided to be clever. -
I don't know what that has to do with anything, but it's true. I liked the new Episode, but I think it's Graeme Harpers' direction, he seems to know how to make an story exciting.
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And yet, strangely you didn't have a gay/bi character in EVERY single episode of the Sylvester McCoy years. In fact, you hardly had people mention sex and sexuality AT ALL, since they actually remembered they were on a fucking sci-fi show and not a public service announcement on behalf of the militant fundamentalist heterophobes of the UK.
Bottom line, heterophobes - we don't like the gay references because they're fucking DISTRAAAAAACTIIIING, and NOT because they're about being gay. And I know none of you believe me, but I genuinely couldn't give less of a shit. All I know is, it's the gay agenda defenders who are coming across as the fundamentlist lunatics on THIS talkback, because the rest of us know that what we hate is SHIT WRITING, not the idea of homosexuality. -
It's not just the bus- it's the fact that (a) nothing exciting happened, and (b) all the cool bits of POTD were rip-offs of other stuff like DUNE (desert planet), flying bus (HARRY POTTER), enigmatic aristocratic female thief (LARA CROFT) and very derivative monsters (PITCH BLACK). It's more the fact that RTD has made a patchwork episode comprised of OTHER PEOPLE'S coolest ideas that really rankles with me, not just the ideas themselves.
And it was boring....
But really, axcel1 - hope you enjoy the last Tennant specials - I know I probably won't, but fuck it, I'll give 'em a go!!!!! -
It's one reference in EVERY RTD EPISODE EVER. And it's NOT the fact it's about homosexuality - as V'Shael put so well a few posts ago, if you had references to a character being ginger in every RTD episode for the past four seasons, you'd start to wonder why the hell RTD thinks gingers are so important that they have to be mentioned in every episode he writes. Then you'd start to think it's stupid that his fixation with mentioning gingers every episode seems to have no relation to the plot or characters, just gets randomly mentioned every so often - much like Hairy Nutsack posited, in the way "I have a bad feeling about this" got thrown in the prequels in entirely the wrong places - and eventually you'd just assume that he thinks it's more important that you are aware of the existence of gingers in every episode than he is of writing a coherent, intelligent, logical story.
It's BAD WRITING. Plain and simple. Though, like Smashing, I suspect you already understand this, and are just trying to piss we supposed homophobes off. How spectacularly mature of you... -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/medi a/2007/oct/20/bbc.television
Oh, this is priceless. This is the RTD the heterophobes are deifying so much:
"Russell T Davies was at a wedding recently when a guest complained about what he'd done to Doctor Who, an otherwise wholesome family drama. "She told me she was shocked because Captain Jack is bisexual and wouldn't let her children watch it," says Davies. "I had such a go at her. I said: 'You're an unfit mother. You're ignorant. Your children are cleverer than you.' Then her husband came up and I thought there was going to be a fight, but they left."
Davies takes a drag on his cigarette, exhales and gives me a self-satirising glance: "I can be very bolshie, you know." Then the man the Guardian reckons is Britain's 15th most powerful media player, the writer who made it not only safe but near-obligatory to watch Saturday night TV again, all 6ft 6in of him, leans over, squeezes my arm and giggles maniacally. He does that a lot during the interview. Not that I'm complaining.
"I didn't make Captain Jack bisexual from any principle, but because I thought it would be more interesting for a narrative point of view. But, having created him, I'll defend him to the hilt." "
Okay. So from "not that I'm complaining" we know the interviewer is a simpering sycophant (suffering succotash!) who will not ask RTD ANY of the difficult questions. Ho hum, how very predictable. So, onto:
""I didn't make Captain Jack bisexual from any principle, but because I thought it would be more interesting for a narrative point of view. But, having created him, I'll defend him to the hilt." Absolutely, obviously bollocks.
Then:
"Russell T Davies was at a wedding recently when a guest complained about what he'd done to Doctor Who, an otherwise wholesome family drama. "She told me she was shocked because Captain Jack is bisexual and wouldn't let her children watch it," says Davies. "I had such a go at her. I said: 'You're an unfit mother. You're ignorant. Your children are cleverer than you." . Niiiiiice. Not only is RTD too immature to engage this obviously sheltered and prejudiced woman in an intelligent discussion on why she felt she couldn't show her children Dr Who since Capt Jack is bisexual (and maybe her problem is that she felt her kids were too young to have ANY discussion about sex AT ALL - and why should RTD or the BBC make that decision for her, by introducing sex into DR WHO in the first place?), but he then harangues and verbally abuses her into a position where her husband has to defend her and eventually leave the party.
Call me inexperienced in all this, but I thought the reason the gay community wanted to be accepted as equals in every way into mainstream society is becuase they feel they are being singled out, harassed, verbally abused and treated as being less than equal by said society. So RTD's way of getting this across to people who do NOT understand that gay/bi people are equal and normal and so on is to do EXACTLY WHAT HE'S ACCUSING THE HOMOPHOBES OF DOING - bullying, insulting, harassing, basically intimidating anyone who doesn't agree with him. And at 6' 6" tall, who IS going to argue forcefully with him?
No matter what shit he's been through, no matter how painful it was for him growing up closeted and gay, and no matter how bad things got for him when he came out - NOTHING GIVES RTD THE RIGHT TO TREAT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THIS. And if you think it does - you're a fundamentalist heterophobe lunatic cunt with no intention of wanting to be equal in every way with others in society. but every intention of using intimidation, force and brutality to get EVERYONE to see EVERYTHING YOUR WAY - which is EXACTLY what homophobes have been doing for decades.
Problem is, two wrongs do NOT make a right - they make more wrongs. And if this is how RTD thinks equality will be achieved in mainstream society between homo and hetero sexuals, he could not be more misguided. He's an infantile, immature, bullying cunt, and THAT is why I hate his writing - because it reflects the way he is as a person - unwilling to engage in polite discussion or discourse, but just to intimidate his detractors into backing down by bullying them. It bleeds into his writing - which is why we get these infantile, unrelated gay references in every episode - and shows him up for what he is - a true heterophobe. And no matter what side of the fence you're on, no matter how righteous your anger, HATE IS STILL HATE. And true equality will NOT be reached through HATE - only through understanding, tolerance and enlightenment. Three things RTD could not be less known for... -
The Daleks are time travellers too. They'd know how integral Adelaide would be to the time line. The Doctor says as much anyway.
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OMG!!1 I just realized, every episode ever also had a heterosexual man and woman in it! He's pushing heterosexuality in our faces! He's forcing our kids to watch people being hetero!
Really folks, was a 2 second reference to "his husband" such a big deal? Do you count all the references to "wife" and "girlfriend" also? I'm sure the hetero references vastly outnumber the homo ones. The point of casually putting both of them into episodes is to illustrate the tolerance that LGBT folks will (hopefully) have in the future. -
Oops! wrong show. I obviously got confused with overacting and the...ummm...hair.
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I hope you, and, everyone else, enjoys the next 2 (the last 2 David Tennant) Doctor Who Specials, coming Xmas day & New Year's Day, I already know I will.
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You knew that was coming, didn't you?
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Bill, the fact that so many people don't know anyone who's gay or bi or lesbian (I certainly don't, except for a few people I knew in local amateur dramatics) shows that the 1 in 10 people being non-hetero is probably about right, but that a lot of that 10% are still closeted. This may be why you don't get shitloads of gay characters in stuff like CORONATION STREET in the UK - you tend to only get one or two at a time, as it tends to be in most workplaces I've worked in - not that many LGBT are actually out in the workplace. But if, in CORONATION STREET, every time Anthony Cotton's character shrieked with delight, someone went "Ooh, you're so gay, d'you know that?", by the twentieth time of hearing it, you'd wonder why they're making so much out of him being gay, and the character having no other discernible character traits than being gay. It would look stupid - badly written - tokenism, even. And THAT is what's wrong with RTD's writing - not the fact that he has gay references in there, but the WAY he writes them in - shoehorned in, not a vital part of the narrative, not a part of the characters that influences their decisions or emotions on the show, not as anything but tokenism. I suspect you understand this, but you're just railing at all we supposed homophobes.
Go watch how SOUTH PARK handles the tokenisation of black people in the media by how they write Token the black kid - THAT is how RTD writes gay people in new WHO. Except SOUTH PARK do it knowingly, lampooning the very prejudice they're against, whereas RTD actually thinks he's doing the LGBT community a favour with this heavy-handed prosetylising bollocks... -
The Dalek DIDN'T know Adelaide was integral to the plot - as another poster said above, most likely it was recalled to the Dalek Crucible when the Doctor and Donna appeared. The only Daleks who can see into the Time Continuum are (or were) the Emperor Dalek, and insane Dalek Caan. It was just duff writing on RTD's part.
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I genuinely hope you DO enjoy the last two Tennant specials - and that you have a Merry Christmas, and a very Happy New Year!!
It's impossible to have any problems with anyone as happy as you, you ray of sunshine, you.... ;D -
I'M GONNA RIP YOUR EYES OUT, AND PISS IN YOUR DEAD SKULL!! YOU FUCKED WITH THE WRONG TALKBACKER!!!
Sorry, my standard reaction to any mention of THE SHIT FACTOR. Do youself a favour, and next Saturday - go to the pub. Meet some people. Live a life. And forget that Simon cowell rules the dumbass masses of the UK. He's the Antichrist of popular music, and he wants your soul. DON'T DO IT, EYESTOTHESKY! DON'T GIVE HIM YOUR SOOOOOOOOOUUULLL!!!!!! -
The only hetero references - if you could call them that - were about Adelaide having a daughter and a grand-daughter. We never find out if she's only hetero or has any LGBT tendencies.
Yeah, I was checking.... >:D -
Yes, I enjoyed watching "The Waters of Mars". Ooooooooooooo, big surprise!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought it was different.
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http://greem.co.uk/pics/daily_mail_ted.jpg
http://anacarlo.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/father-ted-careful-now.jpg
and spud oh my GOD rtd DEFENDED his RIGHT to have a BISEXUAL character IN the show HE wrote,
and I hate to BREAK it to you BUT every POINT rtd made against this WOMAN was RIGHTt she was ignorant and a CRAP parent
id say the fundamentalist lunatic isnt the one who slots a single
my wife didnt even notice the gay thing till she asked me what i was typing on here, she just said oh yeah i didnt realise, she(like me) just accepted that the guys brother had a husband and let her self carry on enjoying the show
if you werent a homophobe you might do the same -
gay ref into his tv show its the ranting guy thats in no way homophobic but gets so upset by this <30 seconds of screen time it ruins the rest of the show for him and forces him to start ranting on here
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Please tell me I'm not the only one that hides behind the sofa when Murray Gold's God awful 'music' kicks in?
Each time we get are treated to his children's ITV bombastic craptastic scores it takes me straight out of the show and I start wishing for a comeback of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop...
Truly the WORST TV score in the world - maybe the laws of 'TV Soundtracks' dictate that if you have the BEST theme in the galaxy (ahem) you have to balance it out with shit incidental music.
Oh Lord..if only it was INCIDENTAL! -
And enough with the shit. YES - it's annoying. YES - it's in every RTD episode. YES - it's over in 2 more episodes...unless the Moff throws us a knowing wink and makes the new assistant a Scottish, redhaired, lesbian tease pot...
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..in the above talkback.
Nit. -
I thought the "husband" thing was silly but no sillier than water spewing fission(?)powered zombies? Come on! How about that stupid freaking robot? I mean we got dancing, near fuckable robots in Japan these days and all they have in 2059 is a Wall-E'tard who lays down strips of fire and still needs to be remotely operated? Really, the thing that's most irksome is the Doctor waiting till almost everyone is dead to come up with his solution of the Tardis... and the fact that he doesn't just dump these chumps past their big timeline "fix" point. Durh. There still could have been repercussions, etc. Tennant is really good with what he's got to work with, but as said earlier, "FUCKING LAME, RTD. Don't let the door hit your lazy ass on the way out." That Bingo Card is Funny as hell!
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I kept wondering if maybe I had a 5.1 sound set up, it would be less annoying? Like the music is piped to different channels than the speech, and I could dial them down? But on stereo tv they drown out what the actors are saying. Anyone know if that's the case?
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Wow. Way to get everyone Doc.
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Clearly... but it wasn't a paedo Dalek though...
Anyway - enjoyable up to a point but not the sort of episode that would get many a repeat viewing... And the trailer for the Christmas 2 parter was particularly underwhelming... -
Julie Gardner is saying "Oh here's the bit where so and so is being transformed on screen" and RTD laughs and says "Yes, but I think she's being upstaged by the gay man on the computer screen!" Then laughs his ass off.
Make of that what you will. -
Nov 16, 2009 11:33:43 PM CST
Finally saw the episode and YES, the gay stuff sucked!
by theghostwholurks
Completely unnecessary, annoying, distracting and pointless to the story. If nothing else, hopefully, RTD's leaving will put an end to Dr. Who fans having to Davies personal sex life shoehorned into every other episode.Other than that, I liked "The Waters of Mars." Creepy villains, loved The Doctor punch-drunk on his own power at the end and how it disgusted the people he had just saved. I'd give it a 7 out of 10.
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It was one fucking word, for fuck's sake!
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And Murray Gold is SHIT.
His music, like the Wilhelm scream, the gay stuff (usually) and "I have a bad feeling about this" are ALL things that pull me right out of the moment and it totally sucks. -
http://tinyurl.com/yho8f74
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But I am kind of looking forward to a not gay producer. I will be the first one since Graham Williams. At least the new companion is hot.
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Of course they do, and i imagine they punish the doctor for breaking the laws of time, possibly killing him as a punishment, " It is returning through the darkness" Gallifrey. " He will knock four times" The Master.
But considering alot of the focus in these last two episodes is all about nightmares and the doctors fears, he has to save a few old companions on the way.
I wouldnt be surprised if the Master isnt just in the doctors head. -
I found this info, that was supposedly leaked from member of Dr Who crew on IMDB. And... just see it for yourself but beware of GIGANTIC spoilers for the next specials, and the new series if it's true (and looks VERY believable).
Since syphoning off his regeneration, the next Doctor that was being 'born' remains inside much like the Master's identity within Yana in Utopia. The new Doctor begins to manifest after the Doctor is wounded, resulting in a somewhat schizophrenic change over that lasts almost all the second part of The End Of Time and a final regeneration "like a steam pipe with enough pressure to rewrite the DNA of everything for fifty yards". This causes a mad dash for a 'death' alone in The Tardis. The outfit is wrecked, so is the interior of the Tardis, resulting in a redesign. David and Matt share screentime with some spooky sfx throughout the episode. Four times. The knocking is not literal and is not The Master, that was a deliberate metaphor which combined with the presence of the Master is known to serve a big red herring. The new Doctor knocks four times.
The something coming back through the dark is also the same reason why Dalek's are in the next season despite the genocide in Journey's End; the planet Gallifrey is coming back into existance as time rewrites itself now that the time lock has been broken on The Time War by Dalek Caan, and further interferance has taken place. This saves the Dalek's and The Time Lords, and creates a 'cold war' of time that will see other races brought in on both sides. The new Doctor is considered a fugitive, as the killer of his own kind. In many ways the next season resembles Firefly, in the space wide rebellion/politics way of things. -
A lot of that sounds quite believable, as i said in my post above about Gallifrey, it comes back because there have been loads of set pics of time lords, one played by Timothy Dalton.
However, it is the Doctor who broke the time locks by altering a serious point in history, and the time lords punish him for doing that.
When we see Matt Smith as the Doctor, his suit is torn and bloodied.
It would be a nice piece of misdirection if the knocking didnt refer to the master, espicially as they havent managed to keep his return a secret.
Well, its only a month until we find out. -
Just it would seem well obvious for it to be The Master. I'm hoping for some kind of subversion of expectation on that one.
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I could defo live with that, if it's thew new Doctor that knocks. Much better than it just being The Master.
That said, I hope Gallifrey DOESN'T come back. I know a lot of Old Who fans would disgaree but I think the best thing the other Time Lords have done is get killed off. They've been dull as arses since The Deadly Assassin. -
Well, Gallifrey is definitely coming back, it is a fact.
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I mean the whole idea of killing Time Lords was stupid. How could you kill an all-powerfull race that travels in time ? And time-locks ? That IS lazy writing. How is this thing supposed to work ? Are Time Lords locked in time ? You can't like, pop back to 1978 near Gallifrey because it is time-locked, but you can go to earth in 1978 ? And how come nobody except the Doctor himself and Daleks knows who Time Lords are anymore. Everybody just says "i thought they were just a myth". Everybody just forgotten who Time Lords were ? Or they were erased ? It's like "One More Day" on universal scale ? Because if that's the point, it's even more stupid. Timeline should been destroyed hundred times over without the Time Lords fixing things.
So is somebody could explain to me what exactly this time war did to the Time Lords ? Or still nobody knows ? Are we just guessing ? Did RTD knows ? I think not. Does he care ? I think not. So i think going 'back to basics" and giving The Doctor his renegade Time Lord status back will be great. Of course this whole "Gallifrey is coming back into existance" idea is stupid, but i will suffer through this if it fix things that RTD did wrong. -
It gave the Doctor a backstory, it gave him a past that he was running from, it made him a broken man.
I always thought it was The Doctor himself who pushed the button that destroyed the daleks and gallifrey, after all, he was the only survivior. -
...the one heard in the pods. Pip! Briiiing! Pip! Briiing!
Watch it again. It's cool - it's the actual sound effect, not a sound-a-like.
Anybody else think it was really not credible to have a nuclear weapon attached to the base like that? Or indeed an Ezy-D-Struct Gadget in the space ship?
Was any of the base design remotely realistic? -
You can argue if killing off the Time Lords was stupid or not. I'm sure it was done to make Doctor...yeah what ? Broken ? He spends lots of time running around in sneakers, screaming "ALLONZY!",and grinning like an idiot, for a BROKEN MAN that he supposedly is. Or maybe he was supposed to get more edgy ? Well, after 4 years of death, destruction, gigantic death toll Doctor finally flips over. After for friggin' years. Sure there were episodes of angry behavior (like in Human Nature/Family of the Blood) but for the most of time he stays in his old cheery mode.
Don't get me wrong i love David Tennant's Doctor with all his quirks. Doctor always have been eccentric. Im jus trying to say that aside from few bombastic speeches, and very few behavioral changes, destruction of Gallifrey resulted only in convulting plot.
And RTD could make an effort to explain it better.
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Well it wasn't really introduced in the original series properly until after 6 years... Having the end of the Time Lords somewhat unexplained has meant that they could be introduced at anytime or always was RTD's Deus Ex Machina... I'm now intrigued by how this is going to end - if RTD's past history is to be repeated he's take us somewhere exciting then preposterous and then wrap it up with some totally unsatisfactory cluster fuck... We'll know by Jan 1st 2010 !
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was one of the working titles for the two christmas specials, it might still be. With Donna coming back and being in serious danger, The Master back as well, not everything we see on the trailer is actually real. A lot of it is going on in the Doctor's head, these are his nightmares.
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I fight you all! I fight you!
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The original title for the show was "Red Christmas", and they cover all the minor changes that were made to the script to remove the references to Christmas, since this episode was supposed to be the Christmas one (when first conceived.)
The second thing, was the snowy London at the end. The Doctor says (again) how much he likes snow. There was a deleted line from the male survivor, where he said "What are you talking about? This is the carbon wash, it happens every day at this time. You're really not from around here, if you don't know that." I thought it was a shame that line was cut. -
If Omega manages to survive in some dimension due to sheer will, and Rasallon still manages to be the most powerful Time Lord and possesses secrets even the Doctor does not know..... How in the heck do the Time Lords get caned? It was silly and cheap writing in order to make the Doctor a brooding figure which was cool for the first couple of seasons but got tired soon thereafter.
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I am sorry, the Daleks have come back a couple of times.... The Daleks broke a "Time-Lock"..... The Cybermen survived..... and yet the Time Lords get whipped?
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Gonna go way into geek territory here. Allow for the fact that RTD has been very quiet on specifics, and MAY reveal something completely different in the finale, these are just my thoughts.
The Doctor has said many times that no one won the Time War.
We've seen entire planets trapped in time loops in the classic series (chronic hysteresis curves)
We know that the Daleks and the Time Lords were both trying to interfere in each others pasts, as far back as the Genesis of the Daleks serial, but the Time Lords past is/was heavily protected.
The celestial intervention agency (yeah, the CIA) was a branch of the Time Lords that didn't hold with the policy of non-intervention. It's quite possible that the bulk of Time Lord society didn't even know that they were in a time war with the Daleks, which was started by the c.i.a. in Genesis of the Daleks.
After all, we've seen the High Council take actions (like moving Earth and killing everyone living on it) to cover up their own mistakes. (Trial of a Timelord)
So, putting it all together: I think the Time War could have damaged lots of the smaller worlds, just in terms of ships, never mind broken/altered timelines.
The Doctor could have sacrificed his own people/planet in an attempt to stop the Daleks. We've seen before (in Invasion of Time) where he forced the Transduction barriers to come down, leaving Gallifrey defenseless, for a greater good at the time.
He could have made Gallifrey defenseless in someway, drawing the entire Dalek armada to the location of the planet. Then cause the local star to suddenly go nova, (possibly using the Hand of Omega, which was a remote stellar manipulator, as you'll recall) wiping out all the Dalek ships.
He might have had a plan to save Gallifrey from the destruction as well, but it didn't work. Or maybe he thought the Time Lords and their war with the Daleks had destroyed too much of the universe and it would be a better cosmos if both species were wiped out. Maybe he never intended to survive. At the moment, we just don't know.
What we do know, based on past serials... The Doctor is one of a handful of renegades who've left Gallifrey. All the Time Lords would plausibly have been on homeworld for a final battle.
We know the Doctor described all the Dalek ships being on fire, and claimed to have made it happen.
We know that in that final devastation, a rift through time opened up and at least one dalek fell through it.
We know that the Doctor has rendered Gallifrey defenseless in the past, when he thought it was necessary.
Put them all together, and I don't think it's impossible to wipe out the Time Lords.
The Daleks who came back, for the most part, weren't involved in the war. Like the cult of Skaro (in the Void) or the one who fell to Earth 2012, or the Emperor.
The Cybermen we've seen are from the alternate dimension where Rose is now living. -
Exactly. But is Doctor really brooding ? Sure, he feels responsible for what happend, he talks about it a lot,but soon it's all back to the old routine with him. Running around with his earth gal-pals, battling monsters and rescuing pepole. So what exactly RTD changed in Doctor by killing Time Lords ? I could get along with the destruction of Gallifrey if it had 1) sense 2) some interesting impact on Doctor's universe, aside from occasional brooding. In many ways i feel that ending of WOM was really the fallout of time war. I mean he destroyed his own race, when something like that happens you can either go nuts with UNLIMITED POWER, or kill yourself. While watching new Who i often thought that RTD was to affraid to further change the personality of Doctor, like he wanted to stay true to the old Doctor loved by the masses, and bring something that would be appealing to the new crowd. And it's cool that he tried to do something new, but his ideas are lacking in the consistency and common sense departaments.
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In 'Dalek' the ninth doctor says he destroyed the dalak race, that " i watched it happen, i made it happen"
The Doctor most likely did something that destroyed the daleks and time lords at the same time, and he being the one that did it, survived. -
"We know the Doctor described all the Dalek ships being on fire, and claimed to have made it happen."
I was guessing at the specific nova thing, but yeah, I did mention that bit from Dalek. -
the gay community. verbally bollocked, battered and pilloried davies over ianto jones demise.
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Maybe more will be revealed in the christmas episodes and we can put all this conjecture to bed, but knowing RTD, i doubt it!
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The Time Lords are not Omnipotent. One of the things however that RTD has done is to make the Doctor appear so. And there in lies the problem. In the old series there was the Society to reign him back. No one can argue that the Doctor is on a rampage because the Society of gone. However, we know of the Guardians that served as a higher power to that of the Time Lords in affairs of the universe. Mysteriously RTD omits them.... and thus makes the Doctor all-powerful. On a different but perhaps related note: Wasn't anyone else supremely disappointed with what the Shadow Proclamation turned out to be....? I say that because RTD has introduced a ton of potential cool things like "I saw the Cruxiform burn et al..." I am afraid that it will be revealed to be a fountain in a middle of a plaza....
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Nov 17, 2009 9:33:05 AM CST
typical luke-warm Davis with force gay references
by chronicallydepressedlemming
I almost laughed when it happened...almost.
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I was very disappointed with the Shadow Proclamation. For one thing, a Proclamation is like a decree. So when originally cited in "Rose" I thought it was some sort of treaty between the surviving lesser races who were on the sidelines of the timewar.
The Cruxiform, the fall of Arcadia, and other great phrases... we'll probably never see the meat that fits on those bones.
"I was there at the fall of Arcadia. Someday I might even come to terms with that" Great line, but we'll never know what went down at Arcadia. -
You're right about them making the doctor seem omnipotent, but that fits his character arc doesnt it, as he has finally reached a point now where he thinks he can do and survive anything.
But that will be the tenth doctors undoing.
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how tv works. he has been involved in tv for 25 years. he understands that at the end of the day he has knock out an hour of tv every week. he works in a medium of massive time constraints and limited budgets. so almost half the ideas he would want to use he cant. The kind of pressure he is under means that scripts change from minute to minute. which is probably why the two parters look dreadul.
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Straight after the Doctor saved three astronauts that were meant to die, weren't giant prehistoric pterodactyl like things meant to appear and eat them to make the change to the timeline disappear. There was a whole episode about it and how they appeared and did this job because the Time Lords were no longer around. Right?
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Since the Dalek plan was to destroy the entirity of existence with the Reality Bomb in 2009 (Earth Time), were they really going to care about something someone was going (would have been going?) to do in 2059?
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Surprised that no-one has mentioned the whole "what are your future descendants going to do?" core of this episode was done in the original Star Trek at great length in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".
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But to repeat, in brief :
Reapers were there in "Fathers Day" because the Doctor crossed his own timeline. The dalek left the girl in the attic because it had been summoned back to the Crucible, to deal with the Doctor/Donna situation. -
Nov 17, 2009 10:50:44 AM CST
"Tomorrow is Yesterday" : Well, it's not like trek did it first
by v'shael
But if that's your frame of reference, sure, it'll look like Doctor Who copied the theme from Trek.
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Nov 17, 2009 11:07:03 AM CST
Killing the Time Lords gave the Doctor his MYSTERY back
by steve rogers
It was, in my view, a stroke of brilliance. They were boring anyway. Continual delving into Time Lord lore had robbed the Doctor of a lot of the mystery he had - hence the whole 'Cartmel masterplan'. Bring back the Time Lords and the Doctor is just another member of a super-powerful alien race. YAWN.
And is it a FACE that Gallifrey is coming back? The rumours are running that way but I'll cheerfully live in denial until it happens onscreen! :-) -
Apols!
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Timothy Dalton plays a time lord.
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Sorry i'm late to this discussion, been busy with real life. One question to those who have an issues with the gay reference in this episode: If the guy had said "my SISTER'S husband" and then told the exact same story, would you be focusing in on that scene so very much?
I mean, it was a throw-away story to both connect us to the crew-man telling the story (people with families are more real) and to ramp up the tension while the person behind him turned into a zombie. If he'd told the same story, but it was about his straight sister and her husband, instead of his brother and his husband, would you be on here going "why does the straight agenda have to always be mentioned!?" would you have even noticed that bit of dialogue? Would it enter into your commentary at all? I'm curious to hear your answers. -
You're just curious to know? When it should be obvious from even the most slightly involved reading of the talkback, what the answer would be?
I'm not getting involved in this ridiculous baiting exercise a second time. -
seriously, i'm curious. I only got through the first half of the talkback, and that question popped up in my head. I'm all for good story telling, and not crow-baring things in, and i'm frequently upset by anyone's politcal agenda getting in the way of my story. But this reference totally passed me by until i came on the internets and saw everyone talking about it. For the record, i'm straight, but my mom is gay and i was raised around lots of homosexual relationships. I didn't notice it as weird 'cause it was a crew-member telling a silly story about his family... i was paying attention to the zombie in the background. So, seriously, if it'd be a straight person in the story, would it have even registered?
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Upon a slighty more invovled reading all i see is that talkback degenerating into a bunch of people yelling and not listening. so my question still stands. If he's said "sister" instead of "brother" would you care?
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A lot of interesting conjecture has been raised here regarding the Time War/Timelords. I'm hoping we get some good unexpected answers to all this in the last two specials.I'm not expecting everything to be answered deftly. And that's as close to being cynical as I'll get. Because I bloody love Who, and as long as I get real enjoyment out of it I don't care about any little flaws. Or if some character mentions that they know a gay person.
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what was under the ice? what caused the infection in the water?
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sentenced Doctor for death in recent issues of Doctor Who monthly comics book series from IDW. And yes, he was on trial for altering the timeline, by saving one person in 1920. Steve Rogers - how exatcly killing his entire race gave Dotcor his mystery back ? We know why it happened. We just didn't see it. Where is mystery in that ? Isn't knowing the opposite of mystery ?
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The way my brain processed it, it looked like you wrote that the Doctor had been sentenced to death for killing Steve Rogers in 1920.
That would be one wacky crossover! -
I would pay money to read that one ;D Maybe Doctor will have a guest apperance in last issue of "Reborn" ?
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I doubt we would have even blinked if he said sister, but this is entirely besides the point, because no one is annoyed by an occassional mention of sexuality, it the constant mentioning of such that drives us batty.
The reason people react so strongly to this is because Davies does it to forward his agenda period. He finds a way to crowbar it in in every episode he was directly responsible for, and don't even get me started on Torchwood. It's not the inclusion that causes a reaction, it's the obvious act of going out of his way to feature it that annoys the hell out of people. Just like the aforementioned "I have a bad feeling..." and the Wilhelm scream. It's like seeing a tiny sliver of an overhead mike hovering at the edge of a shot, it's amatuerish at best, and it pulls you out of the scene and you can't focus on anything else.
And another thing, remember way back when Rose and Mickey were gonna run off and shag when Rose came back to Earth the first time? JUST as inappropriate for a kids show. -
is right what does it matter if its sister or husband? i think rtd only slips this in to rile the homophobes hes probably sitting reading these talkbacks pissing himself
imho the bigottry displayed here shows exactly why homosexuality should be on more kids tv shows, hopefully the next generation will be able to see a gay reference on tv without being so outraged they start ranting on the internet
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That's the problem with Davies Who - its 99% emo and 1% scifi (and bad scifi at that)
And since I'm not emo, I think its fairly boring. -
Whether it's important she dies in the future or not. If the Dalek's have that kind of advanced knowledge and compassion, why would they even attempt the S4 finale? Clearly they don't win. Such horrible writing. Daleks have no regard for the laws of time, period, that bitch should have been worm food.
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I deal with this issue regularly within my own family. Last Thanksgiving my sister-in-law came out by bringing her girlfriend with her to dinner. No big deal, it was no real surprise and was expected to happen sooner or later. But this put us in the interesting position of having to explain to my 7yo son about how some people prefer the same sex and yadda yadda... His only response was "That's weird.", and then he greeted both his Aunt and her girlfriend with open arms when they arrived.
He took it just fine and we've had no issues, and I feel like that family setting was absolutely appropriate for his introduction to her alternate sexuality. But I do not believe Doctor Who is the correct place for children to get this information from, especially from an agenda driven madman like Davies.
FFS, these issues are complex enough without some asshole lobbing constant references into a kiddie show. I really like Captain Jack's character, but is the super promiscuous will literally fuck anything DW version of Jack appropriate content for children? If you say yes then you are a fucktard supreme. -
There was no bigotry. The only irrational part of the convo, was when someone started firing off accusations of homophobia, and irrationally claiming that some straight people were gay.
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Yeah I know Dalton appears as a Time Lord, but that doesn't mean we're definitely getting the return of the entire race. People are seeing it as "oh they must be coming back for good", but it could equally be that they appear in these shows but, to save the timelines/universe/whatever they have to return to extinction. It's just a case of what status quo we'll be left with at the end of the episode(s) - Old Who or New Who.
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Someone further up the TB put it brilliantly when they said "instead of gay references, what if it were a ginger reference?"
It's not that it's a gay reference, it's the WAY he inserts the reference into the script - it's OBVIOUS he's doing it to rile people up, NOT to further understanding between straight people and LGBT people. Read the interview in the Guardian also quoted above - RTD's idea of promoting tolerance and understanding isn't to have a discussion with the woman who disapproved of the Capt Jack bi references, but to verbally abuse and bully her until she leaves the party, then cackles about it to the interviewer. I'm all for gay references being on TV - provided they're an integral part of the plot, and provide one of the three things ANY line of dialogue should do in a show:
(1) Does it advance the plot?
(2) Does it advance our understanding of the character, in a way that propels the narrative?
(3) Does it set up a situation that is later paid off in the narrative?
If the answer is NO - and it frequently is with RTD's gay references - then he's doing it NOT to further understanding, but as a televisual version of trolling - he WANTS to upset homophobes. There are plenty of examples of how to do this RIGHT - the way writers in CORONATION STREET treat gay people for example, or ANYTHING Joss Whedon writes involving non-heteros, or the writers of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN... I use these examples because in them, sexuality isn't just mentioned to get a cheap rise out of the homophobes - it's there as part of the character, it advances the plot (there's more to BROKEBACK than just "oh, Ennis didn't realise he could be gay" if you watch it) and it's a part of how the narrative unfolds itself.
Example: in GRIDLOCK, the old ladies who mention they're married. Does it advance the plot? Nope. Does our knowledge of their sexuality advance our knowledge of the characters in a way that advances their place in the narrative, eg does it make us feel bad for them, or happy for them, or afraid for them? Nope. Does it pay off at the end to know this? Nope. So it's just there to wind up the homophobes. And HOW is this supposed to promote tolerance and understanding of non-heteros by heteros? Got me there. RTD is just being his usual crass, ignorant, downright hateful self, who thinks that because he had some grief about being gay from some hateful homophobes back in the day, he has the right to take that out on everyone else by inserting these references solely to cause conflict, NOT to introduce us to characters that are gay AND three-dimensionally written. Can you give us a good example of a well-written character solely written in WHO by RTD (Capt Jack wasn't just written by RTD - his initial character was established by Stephen Moffat, while RTD's sole input was probably, "And make him GAY!").
We're not falling for this shit. Wars are ended by people talking like civilised human beings - they are caused by immature bullies whose sole agenda is to cause conflict. And as you'll see from this TB, the supposed homophobes REALLY only have a problem with the WRITING of gay characters, NOT the characters themselves - the way they are introduced solely to push the buttons of anyone who still has a problem with a gay character. THAT'S NOT MATURE, AND IT ISN'T GOOD WRITING. It's the pro-heterophobic lobby on here, who HATE the idea of actually sitting down with a homophobe to find out WHY they have any kind of reaction to the idea of LGBT relationships, that are causing the conflict. Which is fucking hilarious when you think about it, because if it weren't for straight people having straight sex without any medical assistance, almost all of them wouldn't exist in the first place... -
One word for you guys: FLASHBACKS.
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We get it, you think RTD is a shit writer and don't like the gay references. You don't need to bang out the same screenwriting thesis on development of blah-blah and advancement of whatever. We get how you feel, trust me. Your piece is well and truly said.
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You might get it. HE don't get it!! HE DON'T FUCKING GET IT!!! (Points at Shane Hurlbut) :D
I know, I know. It's all been said, and you get it. Well, I think so (I don't mind the gay references at all, provided they serve the plot or the character) - but unfortunately the gay militant heterophobe community don't, and until they start acting like civilised fucking human beings and trying being REASONABLE for a change, this argument will never end. Well, not until RTD has fucked off, and DR WHO starts valuing story over ticking PC boxes on the BBC's Political Correctness Diktat. We hope this will be in Moffat's reign... -
there is no need to shout, you come across as trying to abuse and bully people until they leave the talkback, you are reading way too much into that guardian article like its rtds own declaration of war against the straights! hes just putting a not very nice woman in her place. You are making sweeping assumptions based on your obviously biased (you hate the man) interpretaion of that article.
And the point you miss is that rtd is trying to show us that in the future a more enlightened humanity will see same sex marriages as nothing to be upset with OR START WAILING ON TALKBACKS THAT RTD IS TRYING TO SHOVE GAYNESS IN YOUR FACE. Thats why its good for kids to see normally unrepresented gay characters on TV, i mean what kid is gonna watch corronation street or brokeback? you dont object to having mickey or martha in the show because they is black, their race does nothing to further the plot, i love the way you sum up your argument by saying that gayness is wrong because it doesnt produce babies, i think we are seeing your true side here. -
The thing about gayness not producing babies has fuck-all to do with how I feel - and every bit to have to do with how it seems the heterophobes on this TB feel. Hey, no more straight people would = the end of the last generation of human beings, so those militant heterophobes like RTD ought to really be careful what they wish for.
The Guardian article isn't the only article I've read where RTD makes an arse of himself like that. There's loads - I could point them all out, but what's the point? You're obviously a complete heterophobe yourself, or a self-loathing straight, so why bother explaining myself? Whatever I say, you won't get it, because it'll just get twisted round and used to accuse me of homophobia. Yawn.
How does having random characters basically come in and just say (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Hi! I'm a lesbian!" and walking off again help society to accept the LGBT lifestyle as normal? It actually makes it look more abnormal, because if DR WHO is the only frame of reference kids have for the LGBT lifestyle, then all LGBT people walk around announcing that they are lesbian/gay/bi/trans without it having anything to do with the conversation! Imagine the scene - you walk up to a kiosk:
"Hi, I'd like a coffee, please. No sugar."
"One-seventy-five, please. Oh, and I'm a lesbian."
That is the level on which RTD introduces LGBT people into his plots. And that would make anyone who is of the LG BT community look very fucking strange indeed - and isn't that the complete OPPOSITE of what RTD is SUPPOSEDLY trying to say??
As for Rose and Mickey - I believe a few of us have made noise on many occasions that DR WHO isn't meant to be HOLLYOAKS, so less innuendo and more SF might be a better way to take the show - and the kind-of hetero blow-job joke in LOVE AND MONSTERS was completely unnecessary in a kids' programme. Unless, of course, you think explaining what a blow-job is to a 6-year old is the right way to bring up kids.
It's not the gayness, it's the shit writing. I cannot put it any more simply. If it were ginger references, we'd all be moaning about RTD's ginger fetish - God knows, we all moan about his "Everyone fancies the Doctor" and "Deus Ex Machina shitty reset endings" and everything-else-on-the-RTD-bingo-card fetishes enough. It's NOT the gayness - it's the way it's written that is so fucking pathetic.
AND THE CAPITALS ARE FOR EMPHASIS! I CAN'T BE SHOUTING, I'M TYPING THESE WORDS WITH MY FINGERS! I'M NOT EVEN SPEAKING!!! -
That facile and pathetically dumb argument that a white person can't be racist, because white people started slavery and therefore white people can NEVER be right in an argument with a black person. Hence, why black people can call each other the N word as a term of endearment, but from a white person it is an insult. And that a black person calling a white person "you white bastard" isn't racist, because they are black .THAT'S the kind of insidious oppression being created by that most fucking hateful and insidious threat to peace between different races, sexes, orientations and religions ever created: the absolute fucking blight of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
God, it must really hurt having to run EVERYTHING you think through the PC filter before you allow everyone else to tell you what you SHOULD think, rather than what you DO think. Is it just easier to hide behind someone else's idea of morality? Is it the abrogation of responsibility that appeals so much? Or is it dumb-ass ignorance, masquerading as politically correct crusading on behalf of every so-called "minority" you can find, that makes you feel so good about yourself?
At least I'm not a hypocrite, and can lucidly articulate what I believe and think. God knows what it must be like to be you... -
pretty good actually, i can sit back and enjoy an episode of dr who for what it is, an entertaining bit of sci-fi fun.
The question is whats it like to be you?- by the time you are halfway through the daily mail each morning your blood must be boiling at all that political correctness gone mad the terrible decay of society and your constant fear that rtd's insidious homosexuality is spreading like communism in 50s america or witchcraft in dark ages germany.
oh and Im sorry im not as erudite and supremely literate as you struggling to make such verbose sentences, I really look up to someone of superior intellect, you must be very important, maybe one day ill be able to hold a conversation on your level, until then ill just keep bumbling along in my own deluded world, HAPPY and with a simple smile on my simple face
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"That facile and pathetically dumb argument that a white person can't be racist, because white people started slavery"I'm guessing you meant to say "that a black person can't be racist" then. Otherwise that's confusing.I never get involved in these gay/homo-hetero-phobe arguments that happen here after EVERY episode because it never gets resolved in any way. Both sides make their same points, and neither ever backs down. And when the next Who episode comes along the big reset button is hit and the whole thing starts anew. I can tolerate (or ignore) it for now, but if this is still going on when Moffat takes over I might go a bit nuts.
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You're right - I meant "black" rather than "white". Too much time reading the Mail must be messing with my eyesight. :D
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EH? You realise this just makes YOU sound mental, right? Like dragging out a 2 year old Guardian article as evidence the man is supremely evil.
I would've thought the gay references being so matter-of-fact would make them easier to swallow or ignore. Just like "Hey, won't it be great in the future if being gay is absolutely not a show-stopping point and in fact not worth debating?". If RTD stopped the plot every time they cam eup to go THIS IS SIGNIFICANT IDIOTS then I'd be more annoyed. -
Nov 18, 2009 10:21:57 AM CST
I hope Moffat's first story is called THE BIG GAY REFERENCE
by steve rogers
and contains 45 non-stop minutes of pointless gayness.
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Maybe if we had a showrunner who understood that plot was the most important thing, and not imposing his heterophobe agenda on his entire audience, then maybe I'd enjoy an episode. I stopped going to church because I didn't enjoy being preached at and told what to think - and I like my entertainment like I like my religion - freethinking and intelligent, and not subject to having to agree to some lunatic's agenda before I can get on with enjoying an episode for the STORY.
In the 50s (or more likely, decades before), a bunch of bigots got together and decided to persecute homosexuals through the legal system. They abused them and their rights through the media, the legal system and social engineering. It was wrong.
It's 2009, and a bunch of bigots have gotten together and decided to persecute all non-heterophobes through political correctness. They abuse them (by verbally abusing them rather than engaging them in discussion and trying to understand and somehow overcome their prejudices) and their rights through the media, the legal system and social engineering. It IS wrong.
Two wrongs don't make a right - they just make more wrongs. Turning the tables and persecuting a bunch of people because you feel they represent the persecutors is NOT the answer. You want to end a conflict, you TALK to your opponents. It's how every conflict ends - it's the only way this one CAN end. But as long as there are pro-heterophobic bigots such as yourself and RTD out there, looking for payback rather than acceptance and equality, it'll never happen. Because you don't WANT it to happen - how can you get your fix of righteously indignant hate-filled bigotry if it does?
Hate is still hate, whichever side you're on. And you STILL don't get that, do you?? -
"If RTD stopped the plot every time they came up to go THIS IS SIGNIFICANT IDIOTS then I'd be more annoyed."
By the way he's writing them in, he IS doing that! That's the point. But you don't want to see the point, because then this would be a discussion, not the usual argument of "Let's accuse Spud of leading the anti-gay fascist army".
Oh, and in one of those aforementioned ways, every line of dialogue should in someway BE significant. That's the point of economically using dialogue. The only exception to this rule, who uses dialogue purely to create mood or tone - as does it BRILLIANTLY - is Quentin Tarantino. -
"I hope Moffat's first story is called THE BIG GAY REFERENCE and contains 45 non-stop minutes of pointless gayness."
You know, even I might actually find that funny... >:D -
im kinda worried about you seeing conspiracies everywhere, i have this mental image of you like mel gibson in that pants film, is your house wired up to blow in case the gay mafia of heterophobes ever discover your lair and try and force their homosexualness down your throat?
maybe i am heterophobic- i dont see how i could be i mean i like pussy as much as the next guy.
What you cant see is that you are a homophobe the entire point of that guy talking about his brother was so we could be creeped out by the juxtaposition of some banal chat about family back home while in the background there was a person turned into a water zombie, whether he said wife or husband is totally irrelevant, only someone who has anti gay issues would take it as anything worthy of notice, my gf commented that it didnt really register with her, it did with me because i immediately thought wow thatll upset the talkbackers so maybe that makes me a heterophobe, what i know for certain is that the bitter passion you have displayed for that one word and the rants youve posted here make it clear that you are a homophobe(it was 1 word!!), the first step for you is to admit that you have a problem, your arrogance undoubtedly blinds you to this but in all honestly i think you should take a good look at yourself and why you really got so upset at one word -
It's one word in THAT episode - it's an out-of-place, badly written gay reference in EVERY episode RTD writes. You don't hear ANYONE (including me) moaning about how Capt Jack was written in THE EMPTY CHILD - because Moffat writes gay/bi people as if they are three-dimensional characters. RTD writes them like he sees them in DR WHO - an obvious reference to show you that he thinks you should see LGBT characters EVERY TIME in WHO. Which seems disproportionate, if the 1-in-10-is-LGBT is true, and also seems silly, since RTD had no problem whatsoever writing three-dimensional characters in QUEER AS FOLK.
He's doing it DELIBERATELY. He thinks it's doing the LGBT community a favour. It's not. It makes him look like a lunatic heterophobe with an agenda.
But you already understand EXACTLY what I'm saying - you're just trolling to try to make me look stupid. Won't work. -
RTD's WHO LGBT characters are cyphers - indicators to let the viewers know where his sensibilities lie. People get annoyed because he doesn't make them fit into the plot, narrative or anything else - they're two-dimensional button-pushing PC placeholders.
RTD's LGBT characters in his dramas such as QUEER AS FOLK are real people, three-dimensional characters who act realistically because he places them in situations he understands and recognises.
Is it too much to ask that he does the latter in the former? Do you have a particularly compelling reason as to why he doesn't?? -
That's why RTD does it. Because he's an immature twat who enjoys trolling in a televisual sense to rile the online community. That's why he calls WHO online fanboys "ming-mongs" and titled the chapter in his DR WHO - THE WRITER'S TALE autobiography on the online fans "BASTARDS". Because he's childish, petty, vindictive, and couldn't accept valid criticism to save his empty, pointless life.
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Do me a favour - just pop up to the reviews part of Herc's post. Read mine again. And then point out the bit where I rant and rave, in that review, about that gay reference.
Didn't mention it. Not ONCE.
It's something RTD does in his WHO eps, like the Michael Bay signature shot - where he moves a low-angled camera in a circular motion around the heroes, shot glistening with sweat against a colour-saturated clear azure sky - or the John Landis "See You Next Wednesday" reference he does in every movie. It's just that RTD does it for another reason - if you're not constantly going on about how great it is to be gay (or LGBT), then you are a piece of homophobic shit and he hates you. The references are his way of figuring out who to hate - basically, anyone who notices him doing it.
Ironically, it doesn't help to bolster his argument one bit - it just shows how amateur and badly structured his writing really is. It's like the difference between RAIDERS and CRYSTAL SKULL - one is written for the scree, by people unafraid to deliver thrills, fun and supernatural chills; the other is an old fart with a checklist, lazily throwing in the elements with no regard to logic, pacing, narrative, tone, characterisation, or originality.
Bad writing is bad writing, even if the writer does think he has a legitimate axe to grind. -
Nov 18, 2009 2:09:46 PM CST
you're just trolling to try to make me look stupid. Won't work.
by kimbers
wont work eh........
http://tiny.cc/pkPpw -
I think it serves a purpose to show how more accepting people are for gay lifestyles in 50 years in the future. They chat about a brother's husband like the most natural thing in the world. Check out South Park's Big Gay Al episode from ten years ago. It was counted as edgy. A SUPER GAY CHARACTER! Since then we had all kinds of gay characters and TV shows, Doogie Howser came out etc. Now it's pale. Yes, I believe in the future not only they'll have robots and mars colonies and shit, but being a Vaseline Knight will be a lot less big deal. That scene reminded us of being in 2054 or what. I don't get all the craziness in the talkback.
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You bastard, you made tea come out of my nose.... >:D
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I disagree with you Spud that RTD *is* saying "THIS IS SIGNIFICANT" - they just whip past like throwaway lines to me. Characters are matter-of-factly gay. Whatever.
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You know all my reasons for thinking RTD is sensationalising and awkwardly shoehorning the references in - no need to rehash them, just reread my previous posts - without ignoring the bits you don't want to answer when you reply.
Points why I (and many others on this TB) do NOT have a problem with non-RTD gay references in WHO:
** They tend to be well-written, three-dimensional characters, with more to do in the plot than have someone say "I'm gay!" and exit stage left.
** Most of us have seen LGBT stuff handled well in other SF shows (BUFFY and DS9 spring to mind, though there are others), and want that same depth of characterisation for LGBT characters in new WHO
** Most of us have seen LGBT characters in non-SF stuff, handled like real people (the best example I keep going back to being BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, an incredible movie), and have even seen RTD do it properly in stuff like QUEER AS FOLK - so WHY not do it properly in WHO?
REASONS WHY WE HATE RTD'S GAY REFERENCES IN WHO:
** Just reread many of the points above.
You're ignoring the fact that many of us have said it's NOT the one word in WOM that has us annoyed - it's the way RTD writes a gay ref in EVERY RTD Who ep, and how he manages to make the person who is being referred to as gay (doesn't tend to be any LBT, just the G, except for the L ref in MIDNIGHT) be a two-dimensional placeholding cypher of a person, with no relevance to plot, narrative flow or characterisation in relation to other characters except for their being gay. Such as, say, Yuri's brother Mikhail (original Russian names there - what, no Boris??) who we conveniently don't see. Ditto the nice old lady lesbians, the girlfriend mentioned in MIDNIGHT - all one-dimensional characters at best, portrayed with no other traits than their sexuality. Contrast this with the butcher in Moffat's THE EMPTY CHILD, who at least has a reason to hide his homosexuality - that time period being a bad time to be out and proud (and that being a rare example of prejudice in certain time periods being handled RIGHT - same with Martha in Paul Cornell's HUMAN NATURE, back when casual racism WOULD have been the norm. Points deducted for Gareth Roberts' THE SHAKESPEARE CODE, where we get round the idea of a black woman wandering round in Middle Ages England by saying "Just walk round like you own the place". One is realistic and doesn't treat the audience as fucking idiots; the other is an average-to-shit writer who can't get out of the corner he's painted himself into by placing a black character into a time period where being black would have had negative repercussions. Hey, I guess it's better we pretend it never happened and treat viewers as though they're thick thoufgh, eh??). For that matter, how many LGBT people do YOU know IRL who just base their entire personality on their sexuality? Who have NO other personality traits, interests, roles, jobs, positions of authority or anything else, bar the fact that they are gay? Not many - and anyone who DOES solely define themselves by their sexual preference tends to either be an attention seeking freak (welcome the hetero example of this person, RUSSELL BRAND) or the dullest person on Earth. Do you REALLY think that changing the way mainstream TV portrays gay characters on TV is either as being commitment-phobic, massively promiscuous sex-obsessed vanity-riddled personality vacuums (well done on that RTD, you pioneered this stereotype in QUEER AS FOLK), or as a camp-as-Christmas screaming queen who only socialises with women - never with other gay men! - and spends his time uttering such banalities as the modern equivalent as "Ooh Betty!!". Is THAT how you think LGBT people should be portrayed on TV? Is THAT how you think we'll conquer homophobia, non-acceptance, ignorance, and abuse?
If so, I guess we'd better agree to disagree, because going by how RTD treats the LGBT character issue on WHO, the mainstream will just have their stereotypical prejudices reinforced times a thousand. Peter Tatchell is going to need much better representation for the LGBT community on TV than RTD, because he's doing WAY more harm than good.
I just want new WHO to be intelligent, non-patronising, treat its viewers as people with fully-functioning brains of their own and the ability to discern right from wrong by themselves without the showrunner writing a sermon on his version of how life SHOULD be into every fucking episode he writes. I'm hoping Stephen Moffat will be that man... -
Fingers crossed for loads of gay Oods in The End of Time and a scene where Timothy Dalton propositions Bernard Cribbins. ;-)
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I'll happily (gayly) stop the episode, toss the video file in my computer's trash and eagerly await Moffat's first episode.
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...Like EVERYTHING RTD teases us with - the fake regen in THE STOLEN EARTH, the equally fake DOCTOR'S DAUGHTER (who turned out to be a clone...), the great big reset button in LAST OF THE TIME LORDS - it's all a great big tease that ultimately RTD never pays off. So if anyone out there has dreams of a time-unlocked Time War, the return of Gallifrey, the return of a mighty Dalek Empire, or the End of Time... Do NOT hold your breaths. My bet is that the Master and the Time Lords are either flashbacks or hallucinations. And it wil end either with a great big reset button, or the shittiest Deus ex Machina that the RTD has yet (half) conceived...
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Get back under your bridge and keep a watchful eye out for the three billy goats gruff, you big gay TROLL!!!
Actually, gay Oods could be REALLY fucking funny... ;D -
...really WERE pretty funny. I think I've mentioned this before, but you guys MUST remember the Gay Daleks? YouTube it if you don't believe me! And BOY do I wish the Key To Time Boxset was available. What's the damn deal with that anyway?
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Spud, I expect it will end with a big reset button. So as to give Moffat and the new crew free reign to continue however they see fit.You seem to suggest that a reset is a bad thing. It isn't always bad, is it?Anyway, I'll be back here on New Year's Day to see what we all thought of it.
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In the hands of a decent writer a reset button can be the perfect thing to giving a new season a clean slate - so yeah, it's not always bad.
But it's in the hands of RTD, which means this will be apocryphal, end-of-the-world level bad...
See you at New Year's!! -
Insane Dalek Caan in the last ep of Season 4 seemed a bit too flamboyant to be straight to me. "I flew, through the wild and fire!!"
Probably just me. I'll get me coat...
**Heads to YouTube to find the Gay Daleks thing**
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