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‘Very Good!! Happy Christmas!!’ Sunday Brings The Third MAD MEN Season Finale!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
“I don’t love you!!”
“I’m deeply disappointed, Don!!”
“Daddy!!”
“Sterling Cooper is for sale!!”
“What if this is my time??”
“You are in over your head!!”
“Everything’s going to be fine!!”
“How do you know that??”
From Variety, Oct. 22, 2008:
HERC: What will be the date on Don Draper’s desk calendar when season three begins? Will we miss seeing Peggy’s reaction to the Kennedy assassination or The Beatles’ arrival in New York?
"MAD MEN" MASTERMIND MATTHEW WEINER: I’m going to say that I don’t know, because it’s really true. And I love that they’re excited about another season because I don’t even know what it is yet. But I know one thing, which is that I think everybody’s seen enough of the Kennedy assassination. I know I have. It’s certainly going to affect the show and their lives and I guess we’ll see their reaction. But I definitely don’t want to go through that dramatically. It’s probably the most dramatized event that I’ve experienced in my life, at least for my age. It’s something I’ve seen over and over and over and over again. As I writer, I don’t really know what I could add to it. But it will affect these people’s lives; you know I’m going to take it seriously. I just don’t really see us coming up on that.
Turns out Weiner had something to add to the volumes already written about the Kennedy assassination after all! Some people, we’re reminded, must have rented churches and ministers the weekend of Nov. 22, 1963.
And the event reminded that the future is a slippery thing. Elizabeth Hofstadt Draper decided to follow her bliss with a Rockefeller aide. And Roger Sterling pushed his new young wife’s arm away to have a conversation with married ex-girlfriend Joan Holloway.
Tonight:
3.13 "Shut the Door and Have a Seat"
Don has a meeting with Connie; Betty gets some advice; Pete talks to his clients.
To anticipate the question, Emmy-magnet “Mad Men” has been renewed for a fourth season.
10 p.m. Sunday. AMC.
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"MAD MEN" MASTERMIND MATTHEW WEINER: I’m going to say that I don’t know, because it’s really true. And I love that they’re excited about another season because I don’t even know what it is yet. But I know one thing, which is that I think everybody’s seen enough of the Kennedy assassination. I know I have. It’s certainly going to affect the show and their lives and I guess we’ll see their reaction. But I definitely don’t want to go through that dramatically. It’s probably the most dramatized event that I’ve experienced in my life, at least for my age. It’s something I’ve seen over and over and over and over again. As I writer, I don’t really know what I could add to it. But it will affect these people’s lives; you know I’m going to take it seriously. I just don’t really see us coming up on that.
Don has a meeting with Connie; Betty gets some advice; Pete talks to his clients.
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And all of you naysayers who cannot sit through intelligent television for 46 minutes at a stretch can just STFU!
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Mrs. Farrell is the bomb! MORE FARRELL in 2010!
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have convinced me to give this show a try. Though I suspect I will be disappointed by the lack of cleavage shown by Miss Jones.
And of course it's not HBO, so any nudity by Jones will have to be in a film or in my bedroom. Or a film made in my bedroom. -
is gonna be intense!
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The Kennedy reactions and the Dick Whitman Drawer conversation were intense as all hell. Great season... Really hope Lost season 6 can take next years Emmy though. It deserves series bookend Emmy's.
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The Dick Whitman Drawer revelation was SO powerful. And the Kennedy stuff woven throughout the episode through the different characters is very well done. But I still miss Sal.
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I am also assuming that tonight will be incredible, but at least we can all look forward to some more Mad Men material next Saturday, just in a skewed light. Clearly the writers at SNL have a real affection for the show (and Elisabeth Moss is engaged, after all, to Fred Armisen). I am also curious to see January Jones take on comedy.
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why can't this be on Showtime? lol!
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Jesus, we get it. He told you the Kennedy assassination has been overplayed and then devotes an entire episode to it. There was really no way around it, it was the biggest thing that happened that decade. And "The Grownups" didn't feel like a rehash of anything we've seen before, so I don't know why you're gloating.
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Betty is not a villain. She is a long suffering wife who has put up with neglect, cheating and lying for years and years and has finally, FINALLY, decided she has had enough. She has given Don every chance to turn this around, but his bad behavior just cannot be contained. Some viewers accuse her of being a cold bitch as if that were a surprise given what she's lived with for the last three or fours years (that we know about). The miracle is that she's not a lot meaner and colder. It would certainly be justified.
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Please don't bring up the villain debate again. It is a rabbit shithole. I happen to agree with you for the most part but no-one's talking about it right now so let sleeping dogs lie, dawg
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and its a shame that to succeed in the new capitalist world, one must become a don draper
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Nov 08, 2009 11:46:21 AM CST
Yo Herc, Sunday also brings Dexter & Curb Your Enthusiasm
by cornontheblob
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meme that started appearing a year or so ago. Despite the fact that he is often likable, I would probably avoid doing most of what Don Draper does. He is kind of a sad person, and there are several moments where his cool veneer is revealed to be an obvious front. Of course, that's also what makes him a great character. If he was always in control then the show just wouldn't be nearly as interesting.
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He would save the ad campaign. the cooly drink an old fashion and bag another broad. Not necessarily
in that order. -
Before I get sucked into any substantive discussion, I'd like to go on record for praising AMC not just for airing MAD MEN, but for airing MAD MEN nonstop for the past 12 weeks. No breaks. No holiday delays. Just the whole season, every Sunday, one week after the next. Honestly, I can't think of another instance in commerical tv where a season has been run uninterrupted like this. As a fan of the show, it's made watching it and enjoying truly "appontment television."
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I agree with you on praising AMC, they do an excellent job and I too love that they have the wits to air the show uninterrupted, but...just wanted to point to point it out...Lost season 5 was aired as a continuous 17 episodes..and it was glorious. It doesn't happen often enough, but ABC takes lost pretty seriously, and thats commendable. Anyway, pointless post, just saying it has happened. Season 4 may have been also, and season 6 was supposed to be if not for the god forsaken winter olympics.
On another note, I can't wait for tonights episode, but I will also be very sad to be without new Mad Men for so many months. This show isn't long enough for how fucking great it is. This must be close to how it felt for the 13 people who watched The Wire while it was actually being broadcast. -
can't wait for curb, bored to death, and most of all DEXTER
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Dexter has been terrible this season. If you knew why Mad Men was good, you would know why Dexter has been incredibly sub-par this season,as well as incredibly repetitive. Just because a show has an awesome premise doesn't mean its always going to be good. Your post shows me that you are not very critical of the shows you watch. Oh, and don't come on here acting like you are better, yawning at mad men and pathetically self-promote yourself and the shows you do like. No one cares, you look like a douche.
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i mean mad men is pretty good but i never really got into it, Dexter is better then ever this season and seems to be slightly more in line with the book (at least in tone) and bored to death and curb your enthusiasm continue to amuse me
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I'd rather stare at Trudy for 45 minutes than stare at Betty.
I'm just sayin'... -
I was not busting his balls; if he changed his mind or found inspiration subsequent, I think he had and has every right to.
I'm just fascinated by the creative process, and thought readers might find interesting what he said a year ago.
When I asked the question I was guessing season three would start in 1964 and we'd miss the assination completely. One of the reasons this series might get on my best 10 of the decade list is how dang unpredictable it is. -
Mad men is more about actual life. Different tone, and I don't think Showtime, or however it happens in the industry, doesn't keep its writing on a high level. Like in Weeds something really cool is set up and then nothing, they just jump ahead 6 months. I guess they lack artistic discipline or something. There's cool shit in Dexter but I'd like if they tried harder to write themselves out of holes instead of just changing shit.
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Trudy is strangely very hot. I don't think I have the chops to take her dancing though. I'm only a man for God's sake...
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Gawsh, I love playground humour.
That could only be funnier if someone wrote "doody". -
They couldnt of raised the price after this?
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Since he said every one would be every 2 years, so now the question is will season 4 be 64 or will it be 65?
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Nov 08, 2009 4:06:25 PM CST
I don't think he ever said it would skip a year every season
by hercules
Many just assumed this because season one was 1960 and season two was 1962.
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Sounds riveting! Love the Spartan show descriptions...
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They used Camelot and the demise as the backdrop for this season, I would hate to think they'd just jump past the significance of the following year (Beatles, beginning of the British invasion, etc) as the background for next season.
It's going to be a long wait regardless. -
How can you have a show about advertising in the early 1960s and then NOT explore the 1964 presidential election, Rockefeller and Goldwater battling for the nomination, the "Daisy" ad, the Beatles in America, the launch of the Ford Mustang, the New York World's Fair, the first anti-vietnam student march, the Vatican condemning the birth control pill (hello, Peggy story-line!), race riots in Harlem, dead civil rights workers in Mississippi, the Gulf of Tonkin, etc?
I mean, Rockefeller vs. Goldwater alone pretty much clinches that we should really get to see how 1964 unfolds.
By contrast, while 1965 had lots of upheaval and violence and uncertainty, it didn't really have any seminal historical media moments for the show to capitalize on. Possible exceptions: Cigarette advertising was banned on british tv in 1965, and the Pillsbury Doughboy makes his debut. -
while they do have some marital issues (the kid thing) they are basically the most non dysfunctional couple on the show
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She plays Annie on Community every Thursday. Another reason to watch that show.
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Holy Shit.
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. . . it's the CHARACTER if Trudy that makes her so damned sexy.
That, and the fashions.
Guess I'll just have to download vintage stag films from archive.org... -
And the Packers suck. If two retards slap each other with fish sometimes one knocks the other down.
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They keep giving incredible, subtle, nuanced performances but keep losing out on Emmys and Golden Globes to actors who give showier, more melodramatic or scenery-chewing turns. It sucks.
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Because it was the year of the first large scale deployment of American combat units in the RSVN. Prior to the landing and deployment of the 5,000 man strong 9th Marine Expedtionary Brigrade, all that were in Vietnam were some helo units(mainly testing the viability of the Huey and Chinook helicopters in combat), Special Forces and other Military advisors.Very quickly after deploying the 9th MEB they were vastly augmented and soon became the 38,000 stong Marine Amphibious Force III. Match meet gas that lit the fire of the anti-war movement which is what defines the entire decade of the 1960.
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Important history is not the same as memorable history. 1964 has way more big media-friendly historical events than 1965. A steady military build-up over time doesn't really offer a lot of meaty story-lines for a show about a New York advertising agency.
I think they should do 1964 (for the reasons already cited), skip 1965, and then do 1966.
1966 has:
- New York City transit strike
- The Beach Boys release Pet Sounds
- The National Organization for Women is founded
- Charles Whitman (Whitman, eh?) kills 13 people from the tower at the University of Texas
- First episode of Star Trek
- The Doors release their first album
- Bob Dylan releases Blonde on Blonde
- Ronald Reagan is elected governor of California
I just think these sorts of milestones are friendlier to the structure of Mad Men than the Vietnam story, which is more long-term and hangs in the background.
To be fair, I did find one other big event for 1965 that would fit well into Mad Men - that's the year Ralph Nader published Unsafe At Any Speed. The car companies needed to go into spin-control mode! -
Nov 08, 2009 6:36:48 PM CST
On the other hand, they might be wise to quit after 1964...
by royston lodge
...starting with 1965, fashion really started to go downhill. The women on Mad Men won't be nearly as fetching once they all start to look like extras from an Austin Powers movie.
http://tinyurl.com/y8mgsy8 -
I think Trudy would look absolutly shaggable in the mod looks of that era..But I agree whole heartedly on your choices for media friendly milestones..There the ones I remember best also..especially Dylan and what he meant to the east coast and later to the west.
Beach boys and Southern California
that was boss.. -
Lost Season 5 was not uninterrupted. It had not one but two single week breaks... which were horseshit considering thats why ABC withholds it... to NOT have that happen. I think Barack Obama was the reason for both breaks, but I could be mistaken. Secondly, since the Olympics air on NBC and the Winter ones aren't exactly appointment viewing for the American public (cause you guys really aren't that good at them)I don't see why Lost wouldn't air continuously. I assume it still will. Especially during sweeps month, why pull an 18-49 magnet?
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It's over and done with. ABC simply doesn't want to compete with the Olympics at all, so expect a two week break, whether you like it or not.
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its what lights the fire of the hippie movement and all the changes that those dipsticks wrought. The "60's" and all that it entails really begun in 1965 and the protestation of the build up in Vietnam.
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...about Don being too "old school" for the ad industry in the 1960s.
McCann Erickson is a real agency, one of the biggest. In 1963, it was the cornerstone of the Interpublic Group of Companies (IPG). IPG was created in 1960 as the first marketing services management services conglomerate - advertising, public relations, strategic consulting, public opinion/marketing research, production facilities, etc, etc. It's the way of the future for Madison Ave in December 1963.
If Don was smart, he'd embrace the opportunity. Yes, working within a conglomerate means more internal competition. He'd no longer be the big swinging dick of the firm. He'd have to watch his back as the young turks have their knifes ready for him.
On the other hand, as part of IPG he'd have access to their resources - research, technology, etc.
His stubborn attachment to S-C as an independent firm shows how much he's stuck in the old way of doing things, both creatively and business-wise.
On the other hand, and to be fair to Don, with all those accountants and human resources people, the odds that his true identity would be discovered increase dramatically.
Roger and Bert can jump in to this new adventure because they already really have more money than they know what to do with. Running a firm is virtually a hobby for them. If this new firm goes into the toilet, it's not like they end up living on the street.Don has much more to lose, and aside from how much I think he's stubborn to not want to work for a conglomerate, it also seems foolish for him to stake his life savings with Roger (already had at least one heart attack, maybe two?), and Bert (how old IS bert, anyway?). -
It provides an opening for Sal and Joan to come back with the new firm.
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I think its hilarious how they show all those old-school Canada Dry commercials, then the stupid new one with the bouncy fucking cartoon 2-liter. Way to juxtapose yourself into highlighting a stupid fucking add campaign.
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Nov 08, 2009 9:46:42 PM CST
"I've been hard on you, but only because I see you as an extensi
by mansuper
I've heard a discussion about Peggy being sort of a female Don Draper before, that quote basically confirms it. I find that rather interesting.
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being a little gimmicky? Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying it, but the plot just seem a little too convenient to be considered realistic.
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I suppose Weiner & Co. COULD be trying to pattern this new agency very loosely on DDB (the creator of the Volkswagen and and "Daisy" ads). DDB virtually invented the "Creative Revolution" in advertising in the 1960s. The founders left Grey to form their own agency, and it remained an independent firm until the late 80s (proving that you didn't HAVE to be part of a conglomerate to survive in the 1960s).
How's that for a complete one-eighty? -
that nothing was happening this season. But that finale just felt like the end of one 13 hour episode of Mad Men. The level of continuity in this show is astounding to me. It's going to be a long wait until season 4.
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This is the best show on television. Superb and unexpected finale. Season 4 can't come soon enough.
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Loved it. Anyone catch if Sal was in the room at the end?
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the last scene with the entire SCDP staff gathered in the room devilishly satisfying
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Of all the people in that hotel room at the end, they had two accounts men (Roger & Pete), two copy writers (Don & Peggy), a media buyer (Harry Crane), the elder statesman (bert), and an office manager (Joan). That leaves art & design as a huge gap in their talent pool.
The obvious and most-likely solution is to bring Sal back in to the fold, which would reinforce the "old school" theory - loyalty, experience, stability, etc.It would also mean the new firm is definitely NOT following the DDB model. DDB pioneered the model of art/copy creative teams - one copywriter partnered with one art director (like the gay european guy and his buddy).
The "old way", which Don seems to favour, has the copy writer come up with the idea and write all the copy, then hand it off to the art director to fill in the gaps. The copy writer sorta outranks the art director.
If this new firm is going to compete in the new world with Sal as the art director, it would mean Sal and Peggy would have to work more closely as a team. But I've never seen them in the past as creative partners. They work well enough together, sure, but they aren't THAT close. -
Words cannot appropriately phrase my love for this show. Best show since the Wire, hands down.
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I don't think Sal was in the room because they would have made a bigger deal of it than just being oh look, he's in the background. I think he may be there at the start of season 4 then about midway through we'll learn his story.
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"I'm not really sick."
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I love how Pete still has that account.
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She actually fell for the "come with me baby, I'll take care of you" line.
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if Roger's tobacco account fires its gay son. Something for season four.
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Nov 08, 2009 10:11:46 PM CST
heres my dumb Question...Ok if its 1965 next season..
by chocolatejesusman
is anyone wondering if Don Draper is too old to be Drafted into Vietnam
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Nov 08, 2009 10:12:03 PM CST
Sterling Cooper Drapher & Price kinda has a nice ring to it
by redjester
And seeing Peter with that hunting rifle, protecting the documents as they exited the building was hilarious.
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... but its popularity peaks in 1975, at which point it starts to decline as other forms of gambling become more socially acceptable and casino gambling expands beyond Vegas and Atlantic City.
Where would I be without Wikipedia? -
FUCK YOU! God I have hated this character from the go get, and I hope this is it for her. She's pointless, has always been pointless, and this is it. Don is not a saint, but he's always been a better person. So fuck Betty! LONG LIVE STERLING, COOPER, DRAPER, AND PRICE!
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bitches can suck it. Mad Men is pure unadulterated genius. I haven't loved a show this much since The Sopranos aired Whitecaps. It's going to be a long year but at least we have BB and Lost to look forward to.
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What a great way to end the season. Don is better off without that crazy spoiled brat, even if she is a hot crazy, spoiled brat. Why do I have a suspicion that he will end up with Peggy? Less crazy (mental breakdown not withstanding), much more self-confident, and she's already been with her stand-in for Don (Duck). Hopefully January Jones won't be leaving the show. Betty may be bat-shit crazy, sure, but still hot.
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I know a lot of people look at Betty as a villain, but I still think she's a tragic hero. Don has treated her far worse than she's treated him, and all she gets for her trouble is being called a whore, and inacting a clumsy (and probably futile) attempt at finding happiness.
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Don is too old to be drafted. He is 38 now, I believe.
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EVERYTHING has change and..wow the characters interactions, the dialouge, the tensions, EVERYTHING was fucking fantastic!I thought for sure Don wasn't going to hear about Francis but I forgot Mad Man don't play games! Mad Man kcik the shit to your face and just keeps going!Man, I cannot wait for season 4!
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Wholly satisfying. I gotta go to sleep
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I dunno exactly how old Don is supposed to be, but let's assume he was around 22 or 23 when the Korean war "ended" in 1953. That would make him around 32 or 33 in 1963. He seems more mature than that but, ya know, he's a "man's man", right?
So, seeing as he's in his 30s, he has three children, and he's an executive with a New York City advertising agency, it's highly unlikely he'd actually be drafted.
However, that doesn't mean that "Don Draper" doesn't still have a draft card. This is long before the age of electronic records, after all. As a formality, the local draft board might be interested in meeting with "Don Draper" to verify his current status. Of course, I really have no idea exactly how that worked in 1964.
If Uncle Sam does require that "Don Draper" check in with the draft board, even if it's just a formality, that could certainly put Dick Whitman in a sticky situation. -
"No."
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If you're into to this show, Season 3 let happy but wanting more. Awesome. Betty is gonna be in a lot of pain next season. The politician is not going to work out.
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Nov 08, 2009 10:30:06 PM CST
Dukeroberts: You're right. Don wouldn't even have to register.
by royston lodge
Once again, Wikipedia comes to my rescue.
The World War II era Selective Training and Service Act required all men from 18 to 65 to register with those aged 18 to 45 being immediately liable for induction. Don would have been required to register under that legislation.
However, it was replaced in 1948 by the Selective Service Act, which only required men aged 18 to 26 to register, except for doctors who could be drafted if they were older.
So, unless "Don Draper" was a doctor, Don has nothing to worry about. -
...Suzanne, Don's teacher friend? She was fantastic, and with useless Bets now out of the picture the two of them can get it on in the daylight. Hope she comes back. Also, does this now mean that Kinsey and Cosgrove are off the show?
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I seem to remember that Don said he was 36 in either season 2 or 3. That would make him between 37 to 39, all too old to drafted. Dick Whitman on the other hand, hmmmmm.....
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18 to 26. Thanks, Royston!
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at least not next season anyway.
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Nelson Rockefeller's campaign for the Republican nomination in 1964 went off the rails IN PART because he married a divorcee who already had four children. His own child with his new wife was born during the California primary. This didn't sit well with conservative voters, particularly women.
Betty and her new friend, if they're recurring characters next season, will likely be a narrative analog for Rockefeller's campaign and the start of the Red State/Blue State culture wars that really start with the 1964 campaign. -
- he agrees to fuck tobacco-boy; or if
- tobacco boy dies of lung cancer. Heh heh heh... -
...American Tobacco Company takes its business to a different firm anyways.
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and I can't wait! ...but I am going to have to. Poor Betty. I am one of those who, as much as I find her frustrating, I can't help but feel bad for her. I think the relationship between her and Don will continue to be complicated and interesting into future seasons as they navigate divorced life. And yes, I assume that life with Henry won't be all it's cracked up to be. The great part is, I have total confidence in this show to handle it well.
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Apparently it was revealed in season 2 that he was born in 1925.
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So, that's the end of that.
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Layne Price finally exacting his revenge! Roger Sterling just being Roger Sterling! Don and Better Draper fighting! Sal is nowhere to be seen! Pete Campbell will always be loyal to Don Draper! Sterling/Cooper/Draper/Price Forever!!!!!!!!!!!
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Much more involving than season 1 and 2. Roger had some good lines. Alison Brie was cute as hell.
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Well, the guy that Don is loosely based on was Draper Daniels, whose second wife was a VP at his firm when they married. So who knows?
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ok its 1965..does anyone think at some point Don Draper is gonna catch "jungle fever" & get down with the chocolate swirl ???
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I'll admit that I was slightly skeptical through parts of this season. I always enjoyed it but wasn't sure where exactly it was heading. I found the early episodes to be very good but then there were a few episodes that left me engaged but still withholding judgement. Now that the past four episodes have happened and I see what it was building towards, I'm in heaven. The closing act of this season has been absolutely incredible television and this episode seals the deal for me. Scene after scene of the episode made me just so happy. I loved the drama between Don and Betty ("You're a whore!"). I loved Pete finally getting his due ("I want to hear it from HIM!"). I loved his confession/apology to Peggy. All of the pieces finally came together and seeing Don's smile at the end of the episode was fantastic. The show has found a way to go into new directions and keep things alive without getting bogged down in a routine and having the same dramatic twists happen again. We're no longer going to be hearing about Don's affairs since he is single now. Roger and Don seemed to finally make peace with each other. I'm just so happy right now about all of it and I can't wait to see the fourth season. Give them the fucking Emmy now.
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hence the "come with me baby, i can take care of you" line is probably not smoke & mirrors. you dont' get to be Rockefeller's campaign adviser w/o goin to the best prep schools and Yale and all whatnot. He's definitely "Good enough" for Little Miss BlueBlood Snob.
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It was brilliant.
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I wonder if anymore of them will get hired on at the new firm.
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There's no guarantee the new firm will be a success, and McCann Erickson (the company that's buying the old firm) has a long life ahead of it.
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Anybody else notice when Don called Betty "mainline"? As far as I can tell, that's the first time in the series that Don ever vocalized how he felt about their different upbringings.
http://tinyurl.com/yg7o8sw -
Cuz otherwise, what's the point of the show? :)
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The next season could easily be about:
- The struggle to build the new firm into a thriving, creative, independent advertising agency where they make oodles of money and never have to compromise their principles, ever. Sha la la la. Sit ubu sit, good dog. (ie, not bloody likely.)
- The struggle to build the new firm, only to have them fail, thus ending the series at four seasons. (Maybe. Could be the best artistic option, but I think AMC would like to make money for another few years.)
- The struggle to build the new firm, winning prestige and acclaim, but not making money. The new firm merges with a bigger company, but this time they know better than to sell out to just anybody. The series continues with the new firm as a subsidiary of a bigger company, but a bigger company with a forward-thinking vision.
- In media res, they've already established the firm and everything is running relatively smoothly. Weiner & Co. just sort of decide to skip over the rough patch and get back to the business of advertising.
(Personally, I'm interested in seeing the struggle to rebuild. I don't really care if they succeed or fail. Either outcome would make for some damned good television.) -
...This show should be required watching for the current crop of douchebag screenwriters taking our moviegoing money and shitting on the silver screen. THAT'S how you write, motherfuckers.
So many good moments...Sterling, Cooper, Draper and Lane (Lane!) huddling up like a group of samurai generals in a Kurosawa flick, plotting their battle-plan...Draper breaking off Betty (and Betty holding her own...tough little minx)...Peggy standing up for herself...Pete's come-from-behind victory...the return of Big Red...and the big Fuck You to PPL...
Man, just imagine if BSG had had a SERIES finale as good as that. I'm still reeling. -
Nov 09, 2009 12:17:38 AM CST
ChocolateJesusMan: I think Don will become a workaholic.
by royston lodge
He's pushing 40. His closest drinking buddy (Roger) is quasi-happily married now, and has a bad heart, so he's not going to be pushing Don into misbehaving like he did in season two (Roger was really a bad influence).
I think Don's new mistress will be the new firm. He's not a lecher like Roger, in that he doesn't go around chasing skirt. He "has affairs" instead. But the new firm won't give him much time for that sort of extra-curricular activity.
It's another reason I'm warming up to the possibility that he might end up with Peggy. If not Peggy, then another female advertising professional who he sees as an equal - the opposite of Betty.
He might try to hook up again with the department store heiress, but their religious differences would probably rule out marriage. -
Don made 500,000 from the original sale of Sterling Cooper. I seriously doubt he'll be hurt financially from the new firm's failure. They didn't invest in anything except a hotel room and some phone lines and they have over 30 million dollars in clients already. So he's not out of pocket anything even if they do go tits up. Now he may not have medical coverage...
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This was like an action movie only much, much better. Also, the pacing was brilliant.
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awesome.
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At the end, they said S4 was going to be next summer, so that could be as soon as 7 months from now.
The one thing I didn't quite get was why they chose Pete over Cosgrove. It seemed like Cosgrove was much better at his job and less bitter. -
Pete did have a knack for sensing trends.
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I can see season 4 obviously focusing on their struggle to build the new firm. But I think it would be great if after that (assuming they manage some level of success), season 5 jumps ahead a few years to show them really prospering in the late 60s. So far each season has progressed only 1-2 years at a time, so it would be quite interesting to get a huge jump all of a sudden, of say 4-5 years later.
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Hope. Everything in Don Draper's life fell apart at the same time, yet in the end, with the new ramshackle operation, the danger, and the vitality that comes from it...sure, there was a little bit of Mickey Rooney/Judy Garland "Hey let's get the gang together and put on a show" cornball optimism...but still, felt like a rebirth. Felt like hope.
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"I want the Cadillac."Awesome. I miss the Sterling/Draper relationship.
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I really wouldn't mind seeing Rachel Menken come back. I think she was married last we saw her, but she was perfect for Don and what he wants to be. However, I think the teacher is perfect for Dick. I have a feeling neither of them will be regulars on the show again though.
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"Very good. Happy Christmas!" I'm giggling like a school girl and grinning like an idiot. If I didn't still have Dexter to watch, I'd watch this episode again. In fact, once I've finished Dexter, I'll probably do that anyway! I only have a few things to say about plot lines though. I really hope they bring Sal back. As is said above, they have NO art people. Bringing Sal back is an obvious choice, particularly since he can direct commercials too. That would save them from having to hire an art department AND commercial directors. I'm really surprised they didn't hire the young kids (the gay european guy and his buddy, as named by Royston above), and that they didn't try to bring Ken Cosgrove and his accounts along with too. And what about Kinsey? I really hope they don't skip over the development of the company. I'd love for most of the next season to be set in a small office as they get the company up to speed. Ok, no more talking, must go watch Dexter and Mad Men again now.
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about the divorce was heartbreaking, I was seriously getting a little teary eyed.
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make me really thirsty for Canada Dry in a glass bottle. I wish all sodas were still available in glass bottles but all I can ever find is Coke. And sometimes Pepsi in the 12 oz. "fat" bottles.
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pleasepleasepleaseplease
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When Don was paying him that compliment. Vincent Kartheiser deserves some serious Emmy consideration for his work this season. He is both scathing and amazing. While next year is going to be fun, the scene with Bobby really made me realize (and I guess hope) that the kids become fairly prominent (a la the Sopranos) because they'll have a lot to say about the time period and their relationship with Don will be really interesting (will Eugene even think of Don as 'dad'?). What a great finale, no real monologue like the last two (although Don's plea to Peggy kinda counts), it was pure fun. Roger, Joan, Don, Bert, Lane, Pete and Peggy are going to all be IN THE SAME ROOM starting next season. Can't fucking wait. Simple as that.
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Did you not hear Don's speech to Pete? And his one to Peggy? Ken might be better at the job but this was before JFK got shot. The world changes after that and Pete is a forward thinking kind of guy, which Ken does not do (he's too focused on charming the clients). Pete figured out that teenagers and blacks were ignored markets (I think there was one more) and I bet he'll be the source of more to come. And hiring Sal is an obvious move, at least for the TV side of things (maybe he just doesn't do Lucky Strikes or whatever that guy who hit on him owned).
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When someone complained they couldn't locate all the files, asking if someone knew where they all were, and Roger says "Let me make a phone call" and knowing he was calling our Joan...I actually yelped "YES!!!" out loud to the TV.
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Remember, "Dick Whitman" died in Korea, KIA. "Don Draper" was honorably discharged with injuries in the explosion.
What I'm unsure of is whether Don would be on a list of soldiers who would be recalled when the conflict escalates.
The question then becomes "What would Don do?" The instinct for him would be to run, but if anything, what the finale showed us is that Don is actually ready to settle. -
I thought one of the more subtle reasons they went to Pete was because Roger and Don knew he was prepping to leave. Roger asks him point blank what he has ready to go, as if he knew he was shopping around.
But the part of Pete being forward thinking on ahead of the curve was what clinched the offer. In hindsight, to survive the mega-merger, they needed Pete more than Kenny. -
That mean old dyke.
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It was a no brainer to not bring the art department. Remember, their capital is minimal at this point, and SCDP saw (rightfully) that it was more important to bring in the people directly dealing with clients.
The TBer who suggested Kirby isn't far off. There will be plenty of artists out there that will work a lot cheaper than the folks already @SC -
Great finale, bring on the blu ray!
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Marvel Comics would fail, there would be no Spider-Man 3 and Disney would have to buy DC Comics.
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Have the new Sterling Cooper agency hire Jack Kirby as Art Director!
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I am behind on this show. The DVR started up when I had the TV while I was doing some cleaning and before I could mute it I found out that either the company's been shut down or everyones been fired. Talk about spoilers. Need to have me a mini marathon this week.
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But, what you do isn't very nice.
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His wife HATES New York, and he burned his bridges with London without even pausing for a moment to even think about maybe consulting with her. Oops.
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I didn't see him in the hotel room...
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...is the fact that he's married. He needs to succeed more than Ken does. Ken can fuck off at a moment's notice and go backpacking around Europe if he wants to.
That, and the new firm can really use Trudy's family connections.
That, and Ken's a douche. -
Lying to her daughter that she didn't kick Don out. Betty is going to find out quick enough how bland her new love interest is, and while I don't expect her to run back to Don, I do see a bad end for her relationship with Henry. Poor January Jones. I think she's an amazing actress, and I don't usually have a hard time separating an actor from their character, but even I found myself seething at her the last few weeks.
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Don fucked around on her how many times?! Hellooooo...
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They had to keep the cabal small, to limit during the insurrection to limit the chance word would leak out. Once they got Pete's clients, they had enough $$ to be viable, so they stopped there....FOR NOW. Kenny & others will probby/surely be approached later on when the dust settles.
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Was clearly left out by a jolly Lane Pryce. He knew that the toady wasn't loyal to him, but rather the larger company, OR realized the toady would have ratted him out for a promotion.
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...and get myself a Canada Dry.
"That advertisement had NO effect on me WHATSOEVER..." -
...because she doesn't seem to have an ounce of empathy in her body. Everything is about her feelings, and she never acknowledges the emotional needs of others. Note the way she treats her children, or her response when Don finally unloaded decades of baggage and sobbed like a little boy talking about his dead brother. I think she patted him on the head. Yeah, Don fucked around on her a million times, but we always felt that on some level he did care about his wife and kids. With Betty, you never felt that. Not saying anyone's right or wrong, just explaining why people dislike her so much.
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He was either being sold off in New York or packed off to India. Then again, that Bastard never treated "The Nanny" very well either.
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The initial response ("What did we do now?"), to the seating arrangement, and trying to soften the blow as much as possible. I was a teenager when my parents made the same announcement, and the little details were very precise.I know this show doesn't deal in easy ironies and typical plot twists, but what if Henry Francis turns out to be impotent..Betty would have a loving, attentive husband, but would be unfulfilled sexually. haHaaa...And does anyone else find Henry Francis creepy for promising to marry and take care of Betty after so few encounters..?And, I think the episode's theme, as trite as it may be, is family. That shot of them all in the hotel room almost felt like a family portrait. And as Don's home life is crumblimg, despite his trying to be a good father & husband this season (well, as good as that 'ol stud can be)his professional family is as strong as ever. And to echo the above...best season yet.
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Michael Scott Paper Company during this episode?
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I think "family" was one half of it. "Loyalty"might have been the other part.
You can see why they used 11/22 as the pentultimate episode now. Camelot, as it were, died that day, but the sense of family and the ideals behind it were still alive and even stonger, through RFK and later through Teddy.
That being said, there's no way this show has a happy ending when all is said and done, is there? -
Is when Betty realizes she's married a gay man and Don laughs his fucking ass off.
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Her front is where all the happy is ;-)
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...is just as lovely as her front. Fer serious.
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The show had a great finish, but the beginning of the season dragged.
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Yes but I think it was The Office who copied Mad Men. The Office also "coincidentally" has a co-manager arc going on now, as did Mad Men this season. The Office was in decline and their writers and actors have talked about how they have become friends with people who work on Mad Men so it seems obvious to me they heard in advance about storylines and ripped MM off.
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I think the difference between Don and Betty is that Don truly loves her, but Betty only loves the idea of what she thought Don was. Once that died, her true intentions came out. So which is worse, loving someone but having affairs, or pretending to love someone to use them for what they can give you? I'm in Don's corner on this one, because even after he discovered Betty's flaws you could see that he still loved her. Oh and Don doesn't despise his two oldest children Like Betty does.
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... as the show moves forward. I could very well be Don's son Bobby. I watched my dad in the mid and late 60's struggle with what was happening.
Does anyone really see Don letting his hair go, growing sideburns, and embracing what happened between '66 and '69?
It will take some masterful writing to navigate these people through the few years to come. They masterfully captured the Camelot Era. But it's all about to come crashing down and I fear that the producers, etc., won't be able to make the transition.
Don is a product of the 50's. His peak comes in the early 60's. It will be sad to watch the fall as the decade winds down. -
No, not like that...
1) I want to be Roger sterling when I grow up, and 2) the mention of Henry Francis' daughter (we saw her at the wedding) made me tingly all over. -
I think Don and Betty were both attracted to each other for what they represented. Then Betty finds out Don't not what she thought and maybe Don figures out what Betty represents is not what he truly wants.Speaking of family, how about Henry and Betty on the plane with lil' Gene - the baby Betty was pregnant with when she and Henry first met and he asked if he could touch her belly.
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about including the JFK assassination:
http://tinyurl.com/y9vedgx -
This show has the potential to radically change in tone the next couple of seasons- it almost has to.
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1964? boring..so big 'meh' to that. The overall story Arc would fit better with S.4/1965. As mentioned above skip over the Betty and the Wonk romance on the Rockefeller campaign trail and SCDP Start-up trials. Drop the audience into the whirlwind (literally as you'll see) of 1965.
Ponder ye some of the potential goodness...
*Betty and the Wonk. sitting alone. in a new home. in a new life. lips pursed. watching the Tele (in color) as Wonk endures the sack pain of watching Lyndon Baines Johnson delivering the "Great Society" speech or being sworn in as President. The grass is not greener on the other side of the Social Registry. / Jan '65.
*Lane and the London fog. sitting alone. still in an American Home. same life. stiff upper British lips. watching on the Tele (in color) a state funeral of Sir Winston Churchill taking place with the largest assembly of statesmen in the world. / Jan '65
*The above is juxtaposed with Pete the Fad-King jaunting into his posher digs, proudly displaying to Trudy a l'Unifolié ..the Maple Leaf Flag. Trudy shoots him a quizzical 'i don't get it look' and Campbell explains Canada is looking for an Agency to help with their new image.. As they just determined to drop the Union Jack as their National Flag. Trudy shoots him a quizzical 'i don't get it look'. Pete Sighs. No more Empire. and Africa will explode./ Feb 65
*Pipe-smoking Paul Kinsey. dressed all in black. Lenin Goatee. moving on from politically liberal views to toes in the water Radicalism, returns from an SDS meeting. Fires up a spliff. Turns on his radio to WWRL but instead of soul soothing sweet Soul music has his calm harshed by Frankie Crocker informing him Malcolm X has been assassinated. Goes out to buy a Bus ticket to Selma, AL / Feb '65
*Dandy Don Draper no more with the Dapper Dan pomade in hair..more casual. more healthy. Sits happily with kids on Palm Sunday. taking joy in a Toddler's curiosity with a Time magazine that has Charlie Brown and Peanuts on the cover..they watch Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color...on NBC. Later on the news he will learn 51 tornadoes hit in 6 Midwestern states killing near 300 people and injuring some 1,500 more. / Apr '65
Reap the Whirlwind. 1965 is the year I tells ya. Martin Luther King and the marches from Selma to Montgomery each one bigger than the last. Space as a the new frontier. Gemini 3 and Intelsat I and Pete and North American and the Command Service Module and Mariner 4 flies by Mars returning the 1st images from the Red Planet.. Flushing's World Fair and Houston's Astrodome. Teach-ins and Draft card burnings and the first skateboard championship. As Lyndon fights his 'War on Poverty' with Medicare and Medicaid creation, he jumps Vietnam, Republic of. troop levels from 60k to 125k and doubles the draft intake...in a few months he will announce the in country troop level will need to go to 400k. In July '65 the 101st arrives. August brings the Watts riots and Operation Starlight and the Beatles first show at Shea...while the Pope will go to Yankee stadium and Bob Dylan rolls like a stone...with electricity. A different Hurricane Betsy hits in September...as Tom & Jerry and The Thunderbirds and Days of Our Lives go to air...and NBC commits to an all Color primetime line up in the fall of 1965. Just to sell the RCA Porta-color.
And Conrad Hilton is passing the torch, in a year Barron Hilton (38) will be the Pres of Hilton Hotels ..and on btw his Los Angeles Chargers are about to beat the Boston Patriots in the 1963 AFL Championship 51–10. ...before losing the next two ...to the Buffalo Bills. Jai Lai my muscular ass.
Here endeth the verbose bloviation. ..I am warming up for the last batch of LOST talkbacks. -
Man I'm gonna miss it!
I guess January Jones got the SNL gig for her looks (Thanks Lorne!), because its not cause she's a great comedic actress, or even one that can emote something beyond boredom. Why people don't see her as the series' villain is beyond me. -
She can do comedy okay. The first thing I remember seeing her in was American Wedding, and while it's no masterpiece, I couldn't take my eyes off of her. Of course, that may not have been for her acting. She's so pretty.......
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While I think that Betty does not really love Don, just the idea of Don, I'm not so sure that Don is in love with Betty either. I think he does love what she stands for, and he needs her, but is he in love with her? I'm not so sure. He loves those kids though, which is more than I can say for Betty. Was that her flying to Reno with Henry and the baby, leaving her two oldest with Carla? If they weren't flying to Reno, where the heck were they going? And sweet justice would be that the slimy wonk Henry Francis is cursed by the soggy pickle in his pants syndrome. "I'll take care of you" doesn't necessarily mean he will take care of her "needs".
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I'm with you, and a few others here are too. Personally, the family stuff with Don and Betty was well made, but I just kept hoping it would end and that Don would be rid of that supercilious bitch. The SCDP stuff was pure elation, however.
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Don Draper has the nine lives of a feral cat.
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Even in this day and age, one of the finest ad agencies on the planet happens to be an indie: Weiden & Kennedy. (And it's international.)
Not everyone has to be a sellout. (Although if you're in advertising, you kind of already are.)
To quote the immortal Bill Hicks: "If any of you here tonight are in advertising or marketing, do us all a favor... kill yourselves."
Pardon me while I load this shotgun. -
I just said the same thing more or less. (Not about slimy, soggy stuff; the other stuff)
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See, in Betty's mind, Don is a terrible husband and father because he slept around and isn't around all the time for the kids. Meanwhile, in Betty's mind, it's perfectly acceptable for her to leave the kids to be raised by the maid. See, rich people don't raise their own children, they have staff for that. Leaving the older children with the maid is an obvious example foremost in everyone's minds, but there was also a scene a few episodes ago where Betty was sitting in the kitchen when the baby starts crying off camera. Betty sat completely unconcerned and unmoving for several seconds until the maid said that she'd go take care of the baby. Betty continued ignoring both of them.
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This show is amazing. We cut back and forth between some of the most fun (and funniest) scenes on the series with the Sterling Cooper gang and the heartbreaking train wreck of the Draper family.Incidentally, no matter what Betty's done, the perpetually unfaithful Don calling Betty a "whore" made me cringe. The pot calling the kettle black. Of course, that also comes from a double-standard that was ten fold back in the 60s. Don screws around all he wants. Betty finds one nice (if creepy) guy and doesn't even sleep with him and she's a whore. Again, this seems similar to Don's attitude towards Roger, I think. Don does what he does but then feels guilty about it. Roger and Betty both move on without remorse and Don hates them for it.
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Can PPL go after the Sterling folks? Prosecute them for stealing, etc? I don't see how they can legally do what they did. Taking their personal stuff is one thing, but they left with file cabinets full of someone else's property.
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How can they just clean out the offices and leave without legal action being taken? The only thing I can think of is that they were all the files for the accounts that went with them, and since the business was technically not sold until New Year's day they could take what was rightfully theirs.
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She's far from a perfect little angel, but there is some serious mysogeny going on if you guys really feel that much hatred against her.
She was raised by her parents to be a mindless Barbie doll, and now that she's finally grown a backbone, all her attempts at gaining some kind of personal freedom are awkward and will probably lead to more misery. She's not a cold heartless bitch, she's a fucking deer in the headlights! -
How about the flashback with Dick's dad and the other farmers? It's not until that last shot of SCDP in the hotel room that it hits you that from that one moment decades earlier, there was no way that DickDon would ever abandon his partners.
AND... then, just as subtly, the mystery of Don's jumbo cash stash is revealed. This is a kid that learned early on that the worst thing that can happen is to not have money on hand when you need it. -
Not because he thinks she's screwing around, but because she is lining up a new meal ticket. And he's right. Betty would never leave Don for someone of a lower class, even if she loved that person, so her decision is primarily based on security and status. I mean, Henry Francis is no Don in any way, shape or form. He's a weasel.
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than a season ender? there was lots of closure to this epi, including the acknowledgment that women are important to a biz
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for it could be said that 64 marks the very beginning of the youth culture with the brit invasion...rock and roll stopped being a fad when the beatles came across the pond
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AMC pressure and Weiner's own creative desires will make him do every year from 1961 up 1972.
The big problem will be that Jones and Hamm are probably real movie stars and are going to be chomping at the bit to do big screen features.
However, with a cast this good you could focus on any of the supporting characters and still have a great show.
Henry Francis will probably turn out to be a wife beater or worse. He doesn't want Betty to ask for any money in the divorce so he can have complete control over her. For all of Don's bad behavior he never hit her. -
Biggest laugh I've had the entire series. It was much broader comedy than what they usually have in the show, but what a home run. My wife and I almost fell off the couch laughing.
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Not with today's audiences anyway. He is clean cut and conventionally handsome and would have made an absolute killing in the 50s and 60s. But these days, it's all about Clooney and Pitt. Now, if they were to relaunch Superman with Hamm as the lead...
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If he could do an English accent he'd be a perfect James Bond.
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English, Irish, Scottish, Australian, yes -- but there would be a big backlash from the International audience (where Bond is most popular) if they were ever to cast an American in the role. Besides, Hamm would be so much better suited to the Superman role.
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After watching the show a 2nd time, all I can think of is the massive lawsuit that would have occurred had this happened in real life: theft, breach of fiduciary duty.
Did they not have those types of lawsuits in the 60s? -
Nope! Look at the way divorce was too. Basically, the good ole US of A had not become such a "sue" nation yet :) No precedents had been set!
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****
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That episode was the single most satisfying 47 minutes of television I have seen in a long, long time.
Satisfying. That's the only word I can think of. -
That is a bizarre thought.
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I'm surprised actors still think movies are where it's at. Maybe paycheck-wise but I think the best filmed fiction these days is just as often on TV. I mean, they won't be moving up artistically if they move on from Mad Men, that's for sure. Not much would equal the prestige of being part of this show.
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I cannot bear to imagine Don Draper with a receding hairline, sitting grumpily on the couch, yelling at Sally, Bobby, and Gene as they smoke weed in the basement with their idiot friends talking about seeing JAWS for the 34th time.
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What do you think of the prophesies? Who do you think will be the new Seeker?
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I didn't see it but wasn't Charisma Carpenter in that episode? How's she holdin' up?
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We're talking about grown up television here. At least go piss on a Flashforward thread or something.
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Actually, she's holdin' up pretty well, but the actress who played her rival among the Mord Sith was hotter. ( This was the one who gave her the lesbian kiss, which I feel Charisma could have played up a little more to my liking.) I felt that kind of defeated the purpose of having her as a special guest star. Also, I believe her character was dead by the end of the episode although that has never prevented a character from returning on this show so far.
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I see how it is.
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I doubt it would run much more than the traditional seven seasons, but with the limited run seasons and shooting schedules, I'm sure the leads could stick around and do feature films. This is assuming the quality of Mad Men holds- that is going to be tough.
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With the final season taking place in 1969.
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They'll never do it but I'd love to see this run into the mid-80s. I'm not sure why.
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Honestly, for some reason I'd like to see it run that far, too. It's just tough to navigate how the series will pace itself; it seems so established in the early 60's. But as everyone has been saying, they're about to hit some game changing years. I hate to admit it, but the fashion does seem like the first casualty- it could be pretty wild.
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69 or 70 would be the traditional year to end it all in. Hopefully we have a lot of seasons left before that happens, though.
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The employee turnover at Sterling-Cooper between 1960 and 1963 has been remarkably low. To keep the same characters working together until 1970 would stretch credibility to the breaking point. But the show would lose a huge amount of its appeal if they lost the chemistry of the people who have been there since season 1.
This really and truly is one of those shows that should follow the UK model, and quit when they are at the top of their game rather than letting the show outstay its welcome.
Weiner has said he hasn't thought much about how (or when) he'll end the show. I think he should start thinking about it.
Once the show gets past 1966, it'll be getting dangerously close to The Wonder Years territory, thematically.
They'll also start to hit practical questions regarding casting. Will the girl who plays Sally stick around? Is she a good enough actress to play a teenager? If not, will they write her out of the show, or replace her with a different actress, or what?
I really think that going much longer past 1964 involves too many risks of being forced to make lame decisions.
It is a shame, because the late-60s storylines and fashions are no less important or valid than the early-60s. But I think the late-60s would simply be too cringe-inducing for the audience to stick with the show.
After all, the counter-culture of the late 60s was rebelling against how lame America was becoming. How many people are going to want to tune in every Sunday to drink in "Lame America"? -
I don't think there will be any issue in sustaining characters. If there's a story to tell, there's a story to tell. And who gives a fuck if the show overlaps the same period as the wonder years? If they can keep finding a story to tell it will keep being good.
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Betty is just a bitch. While Don may have been incorrect calling her a whore for suspecting her of sleeping with Henry "the weasel" Francis, she has, in fact, slept around (not that I support calling women whores simply for sleeping with multiple partners). Unless you've forgotten her anonymous bar fuck in the season two finale. Betty and Don were reconciled over his adultery in the season two finale, and they were fine for probably at least six months until Don gave her that cheap gift-shop kitsch as a gift thinking she'd like it. See, she's an old money blue blood and when she wants to remember what it's like to go to Rome, she doesn't look at a cheap piece of plastic on her wrist, SHE FUCKING FLIES TO ROME and leaves the kids (including her newborn baby) with the maid. Only _proles_ buy cheap plastic souvenirs. No, she was reconciled with him until she learned about his family history. Saying she's leaving because of Don's adultery is just cover so she doesn't look like a stuck up bitch. Sorry Betty, it's too late for that.
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From a cultural standpoint they ended that day in Dallas in 1963.
I would make the argument that the 60s really didn't end until Nixon resigned or that last helicopter took off from the American Embassy in Saigon.
If this season of Mad Men had one overall point to make it is that "The old rules no longer apply."
After Kennedy was shot everybody basically said "Fuck it, following the rules gets you no where." That's why the sixties were so chaotic. -
Oh, btw, regarding divorce in New York...that's not just the way divorce was in the '60s in New York, the Mad Men Monday thread on Feministing informed me that it's STILL that way today. That's right. To this day, No-Fault divorce does not exist in New York.
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Put me squarely in the camp of pro-Betty.
The way I see it, Betty Draper was a nice woman who found herself in a shit marriage. Don was a shitty husband. We don't know what the marriage was like at the beginning, but when the story began, Don was already emotionally starving her: He was never there; when he was there, he was patronizing and dismissive. And like with most cases of starvation, it affects the person being starved. Misery crept in. Bitterness.
But through it all, Betty was loyal -- putting his house together, raising their kids, giving the International Heineken dinner for all it was worth, even giving him the kindest of breaks when Don came up impotent: all she really wanted was the intimacy anyway. In short, Betty tried to be the perfect 1950s wife, the wife that Don signed on for.
And, of course, in return, Don fucked anything that moved. What's more, he actively entertained the idea of splitting, and even tried to talk his girlfriend into it.
(In fact, you want to slam Betty for making a liferaft, Don? FUCK YOU! What the hell was that money in drawer you fucking hypocrite!)
To repeat, he fucked anything that moved. And when Betty finally found out about it, what was her reaction? She got physically ill. Sure, Don may have been emotionally checked out 99% of the time, but she still believed in him, believed in their marriage, and never thought he'd dump such a profound act of betrayal and disrespect in her lap. (It's a good thing she never really learned the full scale of Don's philandering.)
THAT'S when she should have left him. But, of course, that's easier said than done when your a housewife with two kids and one on the way in early 60s America. So after one pathetic revenge fuck she was so emotionally removed from she seemed like a zombie, she swallowed her pride and took Don back.
Took him back so he could CONTINUE to fuck around on her with stewardesses and his daughter's teacher and whatnot.
Rhuragh, if you're reading, as far as the trinket from Rome scene goes, my reading was totally different than yours. Betty didn't reject the trinket because it was too low class, she rejected the trinket because she was trying -- in vain -- to explain to her husband how deeply miserable she was, and how their trip to Rome put that misery in greater relief, and his answer was to say "Here, take this little tchotchke and suck it up." Again, fuck off, Don Draper.
Of course, the coup de grace was to find out that he wasn't even Don Draper. That she'd lived with the son of a bitch for years, slept in the same bed with him, and in none of that time he felt it necessary to come clean with her on who he really was. And you can't expect me to believe that she made it hard for him; indeed, for the amount of stretching she did to try to reach out to him over these past seasons of the show, for him hold back from her, again, shows SUCH a deep and profound disrespect for her, I'm not sure I'd blame her if she shot him.
So, to sum up: Betty is not a bitch or a villain, she is a emotionally starved woman, warped by her complete dick of a husband. -
I'd agree with that analysis completely.
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If I had to take a side, it would be Don's only because when he wanted to mess around he didn't see the need to make his children suffer. When Betty wants to sleep with someone else it becomes every one else's burden. And it wasn't disrespect, he was afraid if he told her she wouldn't love him. And he was right. Also, I think Betty's upbringing works against her. Don has seen real problems and doesn't feel the need to manufacture them. Betty, if you'll remember back in season 1, is a big believer in making drama.
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It was nice to see Don stand up to that psycho Betty and drop his balls for a minute. Too little, too late I'm afraid.
"I hope you get what you always wanted." "You'll always be their father." No shit, and you have blonde hair. Way to return a "well-wishing".
I really liked seeing all the characters sort of get clear on how they felt about each other. I may have to re-watch some episodes but I don't see why Don and Roger had such a falling out, it always bothered me that they couldn't seem to patch things up.
LOVED seeing Don have to basically beg Pete to join the new firm... clear flashback to when Pete tried (clumsily) to blackmail him and all he really wanted was for Don to accept him. Seems like he got it and they might put that shit behind them too.
And then what's his face got Head of Media, so he was wrong when he said he was going to die in his office unnoticed.
Joan finds a life purpose again, I hope she is actually going to be a part of the new firm and is not just helping in the transition.
Peggy--I don't really care for her character anymore. They sort of let it slide so maybe next season they'll give her some more meat in her episodes. Now when I see her all I think of is Fred Armisen.
Just have to wait several months now to see what is next. -
Classic episode. Even better than the Kennedy episode. (which was also awesome!) One of the best season finale's for a TV show. Ever. Brilliant! Loved it! Looking forward to 1964 so much...
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It's a bunch of feminist writers saying look how much men suck and how bad things were when men were in charge. I want none of it.
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Don's messing around DID have an impact on his kids -- a large one, I'd imagine. To wit: He wasn't a regular Dad, he was Guest Star Dad.
You know, it's easy to look like a swell dad when you only have to say hello to your kids for a few minutes in the morning, grabbing breakfast on the way to work, or coming home right at dinnertime -- that is, when you could make it home in time for dinner when you're not "working late" (Translation: "Nailing your kid's teacher"). And on the few occasions when you do spend some emotional capital on your kids, it's remarkably easy too: Just be wonderfully sympathetic and fun, and don't forget to undermine the authority of mean old mom. You remember mom, right? The one who actually has the day-to-day responsibility of raising the goddamned kids?
And to the degree you might say "The housekeeper was actually raising the kids," my answer to that would be that Betty sure as hell needed some kind of co-parent because it was ridiculously obvious that Guest Star Dad was pretty checked-out. Betty took up Don's slack, and the housekeeper took up Betty's.
So Betty makes a judgment call to fly out to Reno to get a divorce from her lying, philandering, quite possibly (from her perspective) sociopathic husband, and out of a toxic marriage. I can't blame her for biting the bullet.
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I somewhat agree with your points about Don/Betty's marriage. Don't agree that Don screwed EVERYTHING that moved. Jane had clearly gave him the signal, but he wisely shot her down. Smart enough to refrain from dipping in the secretary pool.
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Not buying it. Toxic marriage. I suppose you are referring to the times he hit her. Oh wait that never happened. Or you mean the time that he took the kids to their eclipse thingie while Betty went to make eyes at Henry Francis? Pretty Toxic. When he stood up to Betty's brother so Betty could have her father live with them like she wanted even though Don hated his guts? You're right he was a terrible husband. What a dick. And explain to me why she went back to him when he admitted to the cheating but not when he admitted to being born poor? Emotionally starved, what a bunch of horseshit.
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I don't even know what to say. Mad Men may be rivaling The Wire for best show ever made.
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Heh heh heh...
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. . . he's bigger than me and he'd probably kick my ass.
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January Jones is a beautiful woman, but that's no reason to assume the character she plays on tv is always an angel. Don did cheat on her, several time, there is no denying that. So their marriage wasn't good.
I thought Don was a good Dad, Betty is a pretty shitty mother though. She is an ice princess with those kids. Don seems to really enjoy being a Dad though and is way more affectionate. All Betty wants to do is yell at them, or yell at Don for not beating them or being as mean as she is.
I'm GLAD that marriage is over. It will be interesting to see how these two characters will interact now that their living circumstances have changed so much.
and the opposite of misogyny is misandry. -
Nov 11, 2009 2:06:24 PM CST
Guy Walks Into An Advertising Agency is still the best ep of the
by royston lodge
Not even Lee Harvey Oswald can push John Deere from the commanding heights of Season Three.
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made me yell "Holy shit!" at the TV. Love when that happens. Not often enough, if you ask me.
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What some of you call Betty being an "ice princess" to her kids is called PARENTING. It's called not letting your kids run amok, or wear the pants in the family. It's called saying "No." to your kids once in a while. Newer generations have no concept of this notion and thus the majority of our kids are spoiled little fucking brats. Could Betty be warmer? Perhaps, but she plays a role, and that role, especially in the 50's, is to rear her husband's children into productive members of society, not be their friend.
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the idea that across the street from Sterling-Cooper, a newspaper publisher is screaming "Parrr-kerrr!" makes me smile.
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You sound like a really loving parent.
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were born at a time when children "should be seen and not heard". But as the sixties proved the "young generation" had a lot to say. The US invasion of The Beatles began in February of 1964, which changed the fashion, buying habits, and brought about a teen revolution that shook up the decade. Those same kids ended the decade burning their draft cards, dropping LSD, and protesting LOUDLY. And if the Draper children remain with Betty (have we EVER seen her warm and loving towards them?), there's gonna be some fucked up kids by the '70s. As Don said, "And I'm taking the kids, God knows they'll be better off with me.." At least he shows them some physical attention and compassion.
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Key-rist!! Its one thing to be a parent that disciplines their children, but this was a woman who locked her young daughter in a closet for some reason..I forget. She broke a vase?
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It's fine to discipline children but I don't recall her ever playing with them, or laughing with them... and it seemed like Don loved to do that stuff. He would always scoop them up and hug them and all that good stuff... whereas Betty would just sit there, watch them eat and criticize or yell at them.
Seriously, even when she's holding the baby... how often does she smile at it? The only scene I can remember offhand that showed she cared was when she bought that Barbie doll for Sally, in order to get her to accept her new baby brother. Other than that, nothing registers in my memory.
They are probably just making an observation on the strict parenting style of the day, and how those kids always grew up thinking they were never loved by their parents.
When Don tells her "And I'm going to take the kids, god knows they'll be better off" he's not kidding. There's a reason he said that. That wasn't a heat of the moment thing to say, he's saying "you do not love these kids--I do."
Betty is incapable of genuine love... she probably tries, but she's damaged goods. She does her best, but it is just not enough.
Don never knew his real mother, he lost his biological father early on, was raised by two people who did not love him.... When he lays down next to Sally after having that flashback of his "father" getting kicked in the face by a horse, he knows exactly what it's like to lose a parent so early on and he is heartbroken that his daughter may be at least feeling those same emotions, even though he tried his best to convince her he'll always be there for her.
Don was not a loyal husband... so he is a bad husband, but a GREAT father. Betty was a loyal wife, so in that sense she was a good wife, but a HORRIBLE mother.
That's why the show is so good, playing these characteristics off of each other in the way they do. -
Her father sure didn't seem blue-blooded to me.
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...one of her mother's cigarettes.
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I don't have a kids, nor will I, becasue a.) I'm not a selfish, egotistical asshole who needs a little version of themselves running around in order to deal with my own mortality and b.) I know what a responsibility it is and choose not to accept it because I know I don't have what it takes to raise another human being.
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You have the same attitude towards children: they are a nuisance.
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The fact that he lost both his real parents, and that his adopted parents didn't love him, makes him extremely conscious of how he is influencing his kid's lives. When he told Betty that he didn't want to discipline them because his "father" used to beat him, right there he is showing how much he loves those kids. He does not want history to repeat itself, that's why he wanted to maintain the marriage... for the children.
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As Clint Eastwood once squinted into the sunlight and said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
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...seemed to care very much for him, even though he wasn't her biological child. As the hobo guy pointed out in 1x08 (coincidentally titled The Hobo Code), that while Don's father was a total jerk, Don should "best keep [his] mind on [his] mother, she'll probably look after you." Other than that, I agree. Don's mission has been to make sure that his children grow up in a safe, stable, and loving home so that they won't have to experience the hardship he faced as a child. Again, I do take issue though with the assertion that Betty has been a good wife. Her stated reason for leaving Don is his infidelity. Do not forget that she has not been faithful herself. She's carrying on a relationship with Henry Francis, and has come close to having sex with him. The only reason she didn't have sex with him is because she didn't want to feel "tawdry" by having sex with him in his office or in a hotel room. Unfortunately for her, she's actually done that. In the second season finale she fucked an anonymous bar patron in bar's office. This was _clearly_ a grudge fuck due to just having learned she was pregnant with Don's baby (while Don was still absent on sabbatical in California). Betty is clearly not a "good" wife by any means, and certainly not on the criteria on which she's judging Don to be a bad spouse.
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I don't recall the line but when he told that lady who ran the department store his past, he says something to the effect of "I was raised by those two miserable people", something like that. To me it seems she was just raising him out of some obligation to God. She was going to suffer for the Lord and raise the child but probably didn't care too much about him.
That's how I see Don's opinion of her, anyway. -
I guess I only said that because you have to be vary careful on insulting Betty Draper to some of these talkbackers, they are very protective of her and everything to them that is critical of a woman is misogyny.
The best thing I can think her is that she didn't cheat first. -
Betty is most certainly VERY upper middle class, if not upper class. I believe it was hinted that her father wasn't upper class originally, that he had to work to get on top, but Betty herself was most certainly raised as part of the aristocracy. In the late 40s/early 50s, she was able to go to Bryn Mawr College (one of the most prestigious women's colleges in the U.S.) to major in Anthropology (going to College as a MAN wasn't a common thing in the 50s, but as a woman? that alone qualifies her as upper class). After graduating, she modeled in Italy and Manhattan. I think that pretty much solidifies her as SOLIDLY upper class.
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I didn't say I liked Betty per se, but I certainly understand where she is coming from unlike the majority here. Obviously having a child feeling unloved, or locking a child in a closet, is beyond stupid, but people also didn't know any better back then so you can't really judge her for it. To her she probably thought she was doing what was best. And I also understand her resentment toward Don. Not only did he fuck around with everything that moved, HE LIED ABOUT WHO HE WAS. How could she ever trust him again? All I'm saying is thta both are at fault, and I don't think Don gets a pass because he's a "good father." One could argue that having your child mix your drinks isn't exactly solid parenting after all.
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She's a product of her past, like everyone else. All the experiences she had in her life led up to the person she is today (the today of the 60s at least). And, people can change if they want to. Sometimes people have an awakening later in life.. but I think she's still very immature and something like that is a way off.
Understanding something doesn't mean you condone it. And, I already said that Don cheated and that made him a bad husband, so I'm pointing out both side's bad points.
But after all that, I think Don is the most mature. He's faced way more hardship and suffering in his life than she could ever dream of, and I think it gives him a better perspective of things than she has.
I thought the majority here thought Betty was the victim, I've been called a misogynist several times already. I'm in the majority?
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So that sort of equlizes Don teaching his kids a valuable skill of bartending.
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Yeah that's not a blue blood though. I don't think it's splitting hairs either; having a working-class parent or parents who "made it" is not the same as being the latest in a line of generations of privilege.
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Anyway it's two different things, being a parent and a wife. It seems like when someone says that Don is a bad husband, the reply is that Betty is a bad mom, as if those two things equate. It's this whole pro-, con- thing that's sort of ridiculous anyway. Neither of these characters are "good" or "bad", they're both pretty flawed people. I also think some people are underselling the romantic component of Betty's attraction to Henry. Saying she's somehow mercenary and laying the groundwork with him to fly the coop seems completely off-base to me. Her relationship with Don was a bit of a fantasy; the fantasy was shattered; she's looking elsewhere for her fairy tale now.
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Mowing the lawn and taking out the trash is the added bonus.
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Yeah, they do equate. Don was right in that argument. Betty is acting like she has done absolutely nothing wrong, and laying all of the blame for the end of their marriage on Don, while she has committed the same sin he has. The worst part is that Don's infidelity isn't the real reason she's ending the marriage. She's really ending the marriage because she finally learned the details of Don's past. She finally learned exactly how poor his family was, and it pisses her off that she didn't marry into privilege and power the way she had hoped. And that's exactly why she's with Henry Francis now. I don't know how many other ways I can state the same fucking thing, so I hope this spells it out enough for you. I understand your point of view. I understand why people think Betty is justified. I just think you're all completely fucking wrong.
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Lol. Women marry up, and then they re-marry up. Love is just the fun stuff that is nice to have AFTER the woman has her security taken care of. She didn't feel secure with Don's past, she's living with a wanted fugitive (or at least, I suspect if they knew, they would come after him), her livelihood has been threatened.
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...nor is it her cheating, or her questionable mothering skills. Indeed, Don pretty much seemed to like that she was somewhat superficial cause he could buy her a life and he at least thought she was a good enough mom. The major problem between Betty and Don is that she was not there emotionally for him whenever he needed her. I think her biggest faults that were shown were those instances when Don called her after Roger's heartattack and she could only talk about her petty problems and spare a word or two for him. Also when he made partner and he was obviously proud and she simply smiled and said "that's nice". It also explains why Don ALWAYS had affairs with more emotionally compelling women who he felt he could open to and they would at least respond in kind and give him the emotional supprt he was looking for. THat's why he always had these women as his "medicine" both for when things went wrong (went to the Jewess after Roger's heart attack) and when things were good (went to take his first girl away to paris after he got a bonus). Betty just wasn't the right woman for him emotionally and he knew it (hence why he cheated) but refused to recognize it and just valued her for her wifely/motherly skills (hence why he's mad at her for breaking up the fam). On Betty's end, knowing that she was not valued for who she was but only for her role was what made her feel so alone and empty and distant. They just weren't right for each other, and in the 1950s-60s, the fallout from realizing that after you get married will be tough for everyone involved.
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Oh please. Quit projecting stuff onto the show. Betty didn't leave Don becasue of the details of his past (i.e. he was poor). There is zero evidence of that. She left him because he LIED to her over and over again and trust is a fundamental need in a marriage. I don't think Betty gives a shit about money, privlege and power. Her family already had that. She using Francis to get out of the marriage.
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You got peanut butter in my chocolate. YOU got chocolate in my peanut butter! Hobo and Rhuragh, I think you're both right. Betty had said in so many words that if Don's entire life as she knows it is a lie, what can she believe. AND that she is tired of the surburban existence she feels trapped in. The trip to Rome helped light that fire.
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Your last assessment was dead on. That was the same conclusion I came to.
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It does seem that every time Don needed someone to be there for him, Betty was emotionally unavailable. I remember when Roger had his heart attack and he called her and all she did was bitch about her future mother in law.
And all the women he was involved with, they were all passionate people... Betty just the ice princess. None of them were society types either... Don does not discriminate by class.
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No. Parent and spouse are two different roles. It's ludicrous to say otherwise.
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There is this contingent that really wants to demonize Betty, textual evidence aside. I don't think discussion of this particular topic is very fruitful as a result.
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I think the reason it gets so heated is someone like me can make a huge post about all the different characters, and one small mention of Betty, and another poster will totally ignore the other parts and only focus on the comment about Betty (and get protective of her.)
So I think it's really a demonizing of the people who dare to criticize Betty, that is the main issue here.
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I don't demonize anyone and I recognize the (fairly obvious, btw) flaws of the character. Still I see a large-ish minority view of Betty that is a bit strange.
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