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‘I Have What Is Rather Disappointing News!!’ Sunday Evening Brings The Almost-Last MAD MEN Of 2009!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Last week Betty confronted Don with the Dick Draper Drawer and Suzanne began her long walk home.
As the Draper kids were trick or treating, Lee Harvey Oswald was about to begin his third week at the Texas Schoolbook Depository.
The Beatles arrived at JFK Feb. 7, 1964.
“What am I supposed to do, Don?? Am I supposed to keep it from them??”
“I have to ask this, but did you lose your temper??”
“Come on, creative!! Be creative!!”
“Everything you do is for her!!”
“If they wanted to fire you they’d have fired you!!”
“What are you doing here??”
“Bert Cooper still has a say around here!!”
Tonight and next week:
3.12 "The Grown-Ups"
Don meets with a candidate; Peggy second guesses her taste in men; Pete makes a big decision.
3.13 "Shut the Door and Have a Seat"
Don has a meeting with Connie; Betty gets some advice; Pete talks to his clients.
10 p.m. Sunday. AMC.
Follow Herc on Twitter!!
$127.25 Blu-ray Players!!
$9: 1,088 Pages Of The King, Baby!!
Don meets with a candidate; Peggy second guesses her taste in men; Pete makes a big decision.
Don has a meeting with Connie; Betty gets some advice; Pete talks to his clients.
$127.25 Blu-ray Players!!
$9: 1,088 Pages Of The King, Baby!!
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Who is Don really? Does he even know himself? Is that why he is constantly engaging in meaningless affairs, in an attempt to find out who is by gazing into someone else's eyes? Or is he just a cynical horndog? Are we supposed to pity him or despise him, or gods forbid, admire and attempt to imulate him?
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Don' watch it!
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Roger might not even have a problem with that, as long as he keeps away from the cigarettes dude.
'course, the problem in this case is likely not the hiring of an arts department leader, it's any additional expense. Depending on how far along the Londoners are in trying the sell the company, they'll want the balance sheets to be as overflowing with profit as humanly possible. -
I think my personal view of the man would be that he's thoroughly ashamed of most of the things he has done, but also finds most of them necessary or enjoyable, and is in many respects simply constantly running away from taking responsibility. I feel like it really came out last week, with all the guilt. The man literally fell apart when confronted with his past. When he dropped that cigarette I almost shit in my pants. He has no ability to cope with owning up to the things he's done. I don't know if anyone else has this opinion. Certainly with a show as complex as this many interpretations are valid.
By the by JohnnyA, weren't you the guy ragging on Mad Men talkbacks in the ratings TB? Indeed you were. And now you come in here to pose a genuinely interesting question with the hope of intelligent conversation I would guess. I'm pretty sure this is the only place on AICN that could happen. Thanks for proving it. -
And this doesn't include JFK.
I'm talking regular character. Is it Joan's husband next season? Duck in some alcoholic fit this season? Sal offing himself? Burt Cooper of old age?
It's gotta happen soon right? Has anybody else been feeling like something big like that is meant to happen before the end of the season? We've only gotten a foot so far! -
"Write all!! His MAD MEN quotes!! Like this!!"
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but then I direct you to maxcadyuk's cryptic post. Is he directing us to not watch Mad Men out of some deep animosity for the show or is confessing that he personally doesn't watch it but feels compelled to log on to the Mad Men talkback in order to tell everyone?
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I'd vote Joan's husband off the island. I'd like to see that saucy redhead in play again. Of course that could happen even if her husband doesn't die.
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The same Jay Leno who years ago viciously raped Hercules. That's why he has such a boner for him now. Plus I'm pretty sure Leno hired some Earl writers who once ran a train on Herc's mommmy.
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I think he does most of the things he does because his outlook was he was living on borrowed time. Now that he's been revealed to his wife, maybe he'll be able to bring himself to not indulge his every whim as if the world was ending tomorrow.
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Hopefully Alison Brie will show up. One of the best of Mad Men's stable of hot actresses.
Mr Nightengale - I think there's a 50% chance Sal will off himself, considering he's been fired from Sterling Cooper and at his age (he looks like 50) would have a very hard time restarting. Or was he only fired from that one account?
I hope Joan's husband dies though simply because the actor playing him is the worst actor on the show. -
I thought episode 11 would be the JFK episode, because November is the 11th month. But episode 11 took place at Halloween instead.
Still, if tonight is the big night, that means I was pretty close! -
That's gotta be more entertaining than anything else Leno's done.
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Remember, Sal himself said that his services as an artist were in less demand because clients want photographs instead of illustrations. That's why he was trying to reinvent himself as a commercial director. The firm could save a lot of money by hiring someone to simply do page layout and typesetting, and then contracting out for photography or the rare illustration. No need to keep an illustrator on staff full-time.
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Nov 01, 2009 2:26:44 PM CST
That being said, Sal could continue to do work for S-C...
by royston lodge
...on a contract basis. They don't really need a full-time commercial director. He should hang his own shingle and sell his services to all the firms on Madison Ave.
"Romano Productions"? A little too conventional.
How about "Film Roman". Gosh, that has a certain ring to it, doesn't it? -
are there no more dexter talkbacks on the site?
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I think he will go to work for a competing firm that is a bit more ahead of the social curve. Others on this TB have suggested as much.
Remember, JFK's death kicks off some dramatic social changes (not the cause thereof, but a bookend of sorts for the 60s)...I bet we all identify with Don to some degree. Trying to be something or someone we aren't. Not a complex observation on my part, but this theme runs pretty deep on Mad Men. It resonates with me.
BTW - Casual rape humor, really funny stuff. -
Herc doesn't love us no more:(
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Nov 01, 2009 3:59:29 PM CST
Sal WILL be fine, but he shouldn't tie himself to one ad firm.
by royston lodge
Setting aside the immense social change of the 1960s for a moment, the period from 1963 to 1973 will be seriously game-changing for Madison Avenue, and corporate America in general.The way Sal's been written, as an art director/illustrator who has begun to make a name for himself as a commercial director, provides him with a unique opportunity to capitalize on the changes that are happening all around him, as long as he's able to recognize them.
Consider:
1) Broadcast quality videotape was introduced commercially by Ampex in 1956. By 1959, live drama was virtually dead. By 1964, videotape had replaced kinescope for the purpose of timeshifting shows shot on the east coast for viewers on the west coast. The use of videotape for distributing prerecorded shows to local affiliates, and the launch of the first television satellite in 1962, has just ushered in the era of syndication. This means producers are much less required to tie themselves down to one of the big three networks.
Similarly, videotape and satellite broadcasting are beginning to allow advertisers to distribute their commercials independently of the big three networks. The cost savings provided by videotape and satellite allow smaller outfits to get into the game of commercial and industrial production. This reduces the need for ad agencies to maintain their own in-house production facilities.
2) The Baby Boomers are just on the verge of hitting their teenage years. Madison Avenue made its money from 1945 to the early 60s by selling to young parents. The show is just about to hit that period where the focus shifts to their children, as the kids start to get jobs and assert their independence. This provides opportunities for folk in the ad game who might have their toes dipped into the burgeoning countercultures (What grade is Sally in? She serves as the show's resident Baby Boomer. She's really the barometer for cultural change on the show.)
3) The 60s is a period of consolidation in the ad industry, and also a paradigm shift in the strategies and tactics used by advertisers. Sterling-Cooper as written is firmly old school, both in its structure and its approach. Structurally, it's a traditional partnership that is having great difficulty adapting to its new reality of being a part of a larger corporation. Creatively, the characters are frequently shown scoffing at their competitors' ads that take the new approach (ie, the famous Volkswagen ads), and shitting on new ideas about psychology and demographics (ie, the shrink's analysis of tobacco advertising, and Pete's analysis of the value of African-American markets). Furthermore, the characters are all overly invested in the idea that S-C is everlasting, and that they'll have a "job for life". But this is not the model for their industry in the coming decades, as freelancing and contract work become the new norm.
So, Sal is in a unique position because:
- He cut his teeth in the "old school" but was smart enough to see that he needed to reinvent himself. So he's proven he has the foresight that the other old-schoolers lack, but he's also got the experience and corporate memory that the new kids out of college don't have yet.
- By getting in on commercial production at this particular moment in time, he's already branded himself as a leader right when this brand-new industry - independent commercial/industrial media production - is on the cusp of experiencing decades of explosive growth.
- Thanks to his, um, "unique" personal life, he's dipping his toes into the 1960s counterculture which can give him an insight into younger consumers that the other old dogs don't enjoy.
As long as Sal can break free of the desperate need for stability that comes from being part of an old-school firm, and is able to capture some entrepreneurial spirit, he could be a heavyweight in his own right within a couple of years.
...at which point he'll run headfirst into a little virus that gets brought to US shores from the Congo around 1969 or so... -
even more than Dexter. Oh Herc why have you forsaken us?
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Nov 01, 2009 4:27:15 PM CST
Glad to see that Pete may be a large part of the end of the seas
by danielkurland
I've missed him!
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You know, you're probably right when you say Sal may be better off as a freelancer (if he manages to use the opportunity in his favour, and doesn't just kill himself). I was commenting on the clip Herc posted: Don wouldn't have that problem if he had tried a little harder to fight for Sal a few episodes back.
Hm, maybe that's why he seems so upset about not getting the budget for a new art director. He knows he screwed up and wants to fix it, just like he always does (and expects the other characters to). -
Looks like Jay Leno will make an
appearence this season as a fast food chain spokesman..sorry that I didn't tiny url but heres a shot from episode.
http://www.tbonerun.com/Assets/T-Bone/images/macTonight2.gif -
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RGX2lgFSrdM/Sjap7mmMXII/AAAAAAAACJw/CTghkAN77dc/s400/mac-tonight.jpg
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oh well ... I guess that is why tiny url is there..
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You must mean something else.
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Should never say that Salvatore WILL be fine. He has no clue what is in store for any of the characters. It's not like anyone in this talkback knows what is going on with the last two episodes at all, security on the set is tight as can be. Not a peep usually gets out. Matt Weiner is very good about keeping things under wraps.My hope is that Salvatore commits suicide at the end of this season.
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I would imagine that that was more thorough than most White House briefings.
The problem is that although Sal is in a good place *historically*, he's in a bad spot *dramatically*, in the sense that I think that the writers are not going to give him an easy time of it.
That said, he was such an integral part of the show and what the writers are trying to say about the era, I don't think he's offstage Freddy Rumson-style, or even Duck Phillips-style; I think they'll find a way to bring him back more fully into the narrative fold. I think he'll come back to S-C somehow.
But my track record for trying to predict this show is completely awful, so on second thought, maybe I should get on board with the "Sal is going to find success outside S-C and perphaps pop up ala Duck to let us know what happened to him" train.
Meanwhile, where did you get to know so much about 60s media and advertising? -
Very deep analysis on Salvatore..I thought at the close of the episode,just at the last scene if I remember correctly..Sal was in the park at what looked for sure like a gay pick up spot calling his wife..I thought that we would see the last of him..I thought he would be found dead ethier by his own hand or by someone else.. I don't think we have seen him from that scene on and for some strange reason I still think he may be gone. It was just something about that scene that had me thinking he was in even more trouble than we were led to believe..
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next year for sure i mean not one of her male relationships works out
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...equals a pretty brilliant sequence. I love how it all starts on the television in the background while Peter and Crane dick around about their jobs.
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...that was one of the best episodes yet. You could just see everyone...Pete, Peggy, Betty, Roger, Jane...wanting so bad to burst out of their shells. Great character stuff from the ensemble!
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Nov 01, 2009 10:09:08 PM CST
"For a moment, I thought things were going to change"
by kingninereturns
Tough not to see the Obama resemblance.
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Seriously? It's tough not to see something if you force yourself to see it in everything. Take that shit elsewhere.
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The slight Betty smile when she realized that Henry's "date" was actually his daughter was one of those little gem moments that I love about this show. Oh, and also Carla and Betty on the couch together crying about JFK. And the way Mona looked up at Roger when he was toasting her.
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hell I remember sitting around on the couch with my folks for the week as everybody tried to take in all of what was happening..I was a little older than Sally and this episode sure brought back the memories..pretty acurate I must say..By the way no sign of Salvatore gives me a bad feeling he might have gone down..
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...Betty is definitely the villain of the series; You can try to give her the whole "She's a fustrated oppressed housewife" excuse, but, she's clearly just a rotten person. She only wanted Don because he, as she put in her own words, was a "big highschool football star" i.e. the tall, dark, handsome and successful man women dream about. When she finds out he's poor, that's when she loses it. Then this other tall, dark, handsome and successful politician enters the picture, and she "falls" for him. There really is nothing more to her. You can try to make Don the villain just because he lies, but, if you really look closely, Don's the only real person on the show; He isn't trying for this whole ideal, Norman Rockwell family, like Betty wants. Unlike Betty, HE'S actually in love with her. Its not just because of the way she looks. He's not trying to be the alpha-male popular boss and buisnessman Pete is trying to be. He actually respects his job and the influence it has on people. He's trying to get a real loving relationship, that's why he looks down on Roger's divorce and new marriage, he sees it as false. He's not trying to be rich and socially influential like Joan. He's just wants to be accepted. And he's not trying to prove anything like Peggy. Everyone else on the show is trying to be like or be with another character while Don is the only one searching for something that exists away from the other characters. Betty is just a spoiled person trying to stay a spoiled person.
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As soon as the divorce is finalized. Looks like he'll get his dream girl afterall.
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1. Sal was indeed FIRED!2. Pete is now considering working for Duck!3. Speaking of which, Duck is balling Peggy on a regular bases...and she actually likes it!4. Betty is falling for the Senator wannabe lines and saying shit that she doesn't seemed convinced.5. Don made us believe he actually loves his Betty!Now matter what this episode was amazing! Loved it!
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He deserves a break... Betty is bad news..I think she is headed toward a bad situation anyway with the politico. I think Pete will come away from this episode a totally different person..
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thats how this episode made me feel
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In the episode description it said that Don meets with a politician. Did I miss something? I don't remember him meeting with a politician.
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Nov 01, 2009 10:48:52 PM CST
Two great episodes building to likely great final episode.
by snakecharmer
The poster for the season forcast the shit hitting the fan bigtime and they've delivered. Great. Can't wait for next week.
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Boy, the shit's really gonna hit the fan now.
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but they didn't meet... maybe the episode guide was based on something that wound up edited out of the episode..I prefered the scene as shot with the look on each of there faces with no words exchanged it was perfect
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....standing there totally oblivious to his wife making with the googly eyes at the senator as he eyeballs her. I actually felt sorry for Don.
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It has consistently made some great musical choices for it soundtrack.. Tonights Skeeter Davis "end of the world" was perfect as was the use a season ago of a great exotica version of "miserlou" when Don Draper was in Cali. I really gott tip the hat to all the talent on this show its just bursting professionalism
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We see Pete Campbell's petulance reach new extremes as he finds that his clients wouldn't follow him to another office let alone a new firm.
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That scenario reminds me a lot of Jerry Macguire.
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The main difference between Pete and Jerry Maguire is that Jerry wasn't a total douche like Pete. He is such a weasel.
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Nov 01, 2009 11:47:59 PM CST
I get not liking Betty, but I don't get sympathizing with Don
by chaplinatemyshoe
Betty is cold, immature and often hateful, but Don's a philandering, two-faced alcoholic who has twice almost left his family. He's mostly treated his co-workers like crap this season. Even the mistress he picked this season reflects his slip in overall sobriety. I mean, the school teacher is nice and all, but she's clearly not as bright as his previous mistresses and there was nothing about her seduction that was difficult for Don. She lives right down the block even. I don't know. I don't really feel very sorry for Don. He's made his bed.
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I know he has made his bed and all, but he has never done anything with the sole purpose of hurting Betty. Betty seems to have gotten involved with her gentleman to get back at Don. And after finding the Dick Whitman box she seems to genuinely despise Don. That look of contempt she gave him when he got up to give his speech two weeks ago said it all.
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Oh, and that teacher was hot.
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It seems like the kids are the only ones that will truly suffer. Don wants to be with the teacher, and Betty seems to want to be with the politician-wannabe. Those poor kids will grow up miserable. Especially the newborn.
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I think Sally would take the biggest hit if the family fell apart.. She's timed just right to fall into the drug culture of the 70's and crash and burn as she already exhibits a few signs of being in trouble. By the way..
She looks amazingly like Anissa Jones who played Buffy on "Family Affair" and that child star take a quick downhill slide to oblivion by overdosing -
The finale is going to be amazing. This whole season has been note perfect. I'm still waiting for Betty to realize that a future with Henry Francis isn't going to resemble the future she has laid in front of her with Don. Maybe that happens in the finale, but I sensed a lot tonight that Don is a good father and if Betty goes through with what she's thinking of, she may lose her kids. I almost wonder if Betty is about to get punished big time by losing her children and then realizing once she's free to be with Henry, he's a poor slob and not what she's been imagining. Frankly, there was a small exchange between Betty and Henry in the car where he didn't even know what her favorite movie was. That's how little they know one another and destroying your marriage and family for someone you barely know never seems to work out for the best. I tend to think that Betty is about to learn something about Henry as she walks along the edge of the knife that will scare her straight back to Don...but their relationship is over. If they do stay married it will be an awful compromise between the two of them. I don't know where the show is heading but tonight was just tough. The death of Camelot (JFK) being paralleled with the death of the Draper family/marriage, the death of Pete's dreams to be the top guy, etc...brilliant stuff.
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...didn't seem to show any NEW clips. Unless I missed some. It looked like a montage of scenes from all the season's episodes leading up to the finale. Also interesting that one of the clips showed Sal's outburst in the editing room when he threw some film cannisters on the floor. Maybe that hints that we'll find out his fate in the finale??
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I have to say, the fact that Pete's gun is still in his office makes me uneasy. Having the preview consist of old clips has me imagining all sorts of crazy crap raining down and really setting up next season.
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what gives?
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Nov 02, 2009 3:12:07 AM CST
Could it be possible that they are setting up Pete...
by dailysportspages
As a the hero of the whole thing?
Watching him lately he has been giving me this vibe that there is a small sliver of a chance that Pete may actually turn the corner completely.
That he may get to be "Don", get to be all that he wanted to be while at the same time actually becoming a better man?
(funny coincidence the star is named don when the creators previous show was about a mafia don)
Could it be possible that at the end of it all Don is still the same old Dick he has always been... while Pete actually has the epiphany that allows him to become a man who can more readily adapt to the new social changes going on in the country?
Pete's reaction to the Kennedy assassination was probably the one that seemed the strongest to me.
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Wait right here...I'll go get him.
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When Don woke up the next morning after Betty said she didn't love him, and was standing detached at the kitchen door, looking in as Betty served the kids breakfast, he was staring sort of longingly, probably knowing that he was about to lose this lovely domestic scene for good, and then...there was the subtle, faintest sound of wind blowing. I had to rewind to make sure I heard it, and I think it is supposed to be so subtle you almost don't hear it, just to emphasize the idea that his life is about to blow away like the dust in the wind...but damn, it hit me hard. It shows his face, and just this blowing wind rushing past him as his life leaves for good. Did anyone else hear/notice this? I rewound my DVR twice and turned the volume up...it definitely wasnt a draft in my apartment or something, its in the sound for the show.
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...with a DVD of 'Prison Break' under a box propped up on a stick. Everybody be reeally quiet and I'll pull the string as soon as he's under the box. Sshhhh!
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I hope the people who say that were watching last night. And watching next week. Start making room in the Mad Men office for Emmy #3...
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And then a bat flew through the open window, giving Don a new direction in life.
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You don't have to be a dick, it wasn't as melodramatic as all that. It was extremely subtle, and I wanted to know if anyone else noticed it. So sue me.
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that Betty's favourite film is SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, the most over-rated of the classic musicals. I know that the Hollywood types love this movie and regularly place it among the best ever; of course they love it, it's about *them*.
How very typical of her, too, to blame Don for everything ("[I hate you] for ruining all this"); sure, Don has at times behaved like an arse, but it takes two to fix a marriage, and last week and this, Don seemed to be willing to do his part.
Was I the only one who was reminded of Sally when Betty stood in front of the TV crying "What is happening?" Certainly a child's reaction (and fitting, given Mrs Draper's, uh, problems with maturity), but I thought I also detected a faint echo of a Sally tantrum in there.
Crow, I noticed it, too. I'm not sure it qualifies as subtle, though: the music stops, the floorboard creaks, and immediately the cooing/wind sound starts up, persisting while Betty refuses to look at Don. -
I was thinking the same thing about Pete. As much of a prick as he has been, it seems like there's a slight chance he'll turn over a new leaf at some point. I think the black turtleneck he wore at the end is a clear indicator that at least he's fashion-forward ...
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For failure to display a sense of humor.
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my comment about Betty's reaction to the Oswald shooting. She's not the only one who asked that question in yesterday's episode, either explicitly or implicitly. Her phrasing of it, and the way she stood there, just had an air of childishness to it, the way I saw it. There's probably a bit of that old "Betty Draper *really* doesn't want to deal with death" problem in the performance, too. At least she "manned up" later in the episode and declared her marriage dead (hence why Don had no desire to watch Kennedy's funeral), so I guess that's progress.
I also wonder if we should read anything into the television clip in the background while Pete and his wife are debating whether to go to the wedding. Weiner could have used anything; why show part of the international reaction, and why that one? The speaker in that scene was Willy Brandt, then mayor of West Berlin, soon to be the first left-wing Chancellor of the Federal Republic. Brandt signifies a new kind of politics for West Germany, more socially progressive and less antagonistic (vs. the Commies) than his conservative predecessors. Pete has often been spoken of as someone who's more open-minded than many of his colleagues, something that could serve him well in the future. But I don't really see the connection between an up-and-comer sending condolences to the American people, and a "down-and-leaver" *not* doing the politically sensible thing of giving congratulations to his boss's daughter... -
I think he's gonna snap at some point and I hope that cheesy politician ends up his first victim. It reminds me of the Hubert Selby Jr book 'The Demon', where a successful man goes about relentlessly trying to feed the hole inside himself, starting out on petty theft, increasingly dangerous womanizing and eventually leading to murder. If it goes that way, boy will Dexter look like a joke in retrospect.
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..."The Grown-Ups", i don't think that its any coincidence that we start the episode with Pete curled up and pouting like a 5-year old on his couch, Roger's daughter throwing a temper-tantrum about her wedding, Jane locking herself in the bathroom like an angsty teen-ager, and later saw Betty whimpering in a scared childlike state.
Then, as everyone reflects on the assassination, you can almost literally see all those people grow up by episode's end. -
This episode was about deaths. The death of Don's marriage and the death of Pete's rise to the top at Sterling Cooper. Now it's a question of how these men deal with these losses. I think Weiner takes every chance he gets to slap Campbell around and make him look foolish. Not going to the wedding when the other key Sterling Cooper people went will be a problem for him. I also think he's going to try to take his clients like Jerry Maguire to Duck's agency and find out none of them give a shit about him. I don't think he's going to be the hero. As for Betty's immaturity, I couldn't agree more. What she's proposing to do with Henry Francis is complete little girl fantasy. She'd leave her marriage for an instant marriage to a man she knows less about than Don now. I don't think Henry Francis is what she thinks he is and I think that's the punishment her character is going to have to take. Last week, she finally got to know her husband -- the real man inside of him which is something she'd been longing for since the series started and she can't handle that. She wants the fantasy of this other man right now and that won't turn out the way she thinks it would.
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I don't think Betty's actions are about her chasing a fantasy as much as they are about her needing to get some space from Don. I didn't get the sense that she was in love with Henry, as much as he's giving her an easy alternative to staying with Don, who she is seriously needing to reevaluate.
Don did the same exact thing when he disappeared off to California last season, and no one accused him of being immature and chasing a fantasy. He just didn't know if he really wanted to keep trying with Betty, and needed some space and some convincing.
Don't get me wrong, i think betty has a lot of 'fragile-Barbie' in her, but I don't think she's as delusional and naive as some of you are making her out to be. She's just trying to find a way to be strong and independent in whatever limited way her social context will allow. -
That whole episode left Don, Pete, and the audience twisting in the wind, Crow, and I don't doubt that the desolate sound of that wind was anything but a signifier of things to come. It was sad, harsh, and bleak and that really seems to be where the show is headed as we move into the later 60s.
I agree that Betty is walking a knife edge and I can see a couple of things happening with her. Either she consummates her affair with Henry and he does something immediately after that shocks her, or she divorces Don and then realizes how big a mistake it was. In neither of those cases do I see it being about her realizing she loves Don but more a study on how the whole country is about to go to hell ("What is going on?!") and knowing that having a safe harbor with Don is her best option. I don't see her as a villain, though I like her character less and less for her ignorance of self and lack of compassion. She cares only about HER world and in that she mirrors the emerging Nixonian class that will hate anyone or anything that takes away from the illusory 'happiness' they feel they are owed and that others keep from them.
Don and Pete are headed in opposite directions right now. That's fitting because they've always been the sides of one person: both people-persons with strong wills and convictions, a sense of their own decency that doesn't jive with their actual behavior. Pete is ascending as he is reacting to the changing times and growing angrier at those who won't see the essential wrongness of trying to behave as they have in the past (from the JFK reaction, to the idea that you "can't" market to minorities, to his own guilt over the affair with the nanny) and that arc sets him up perfectly for the next season. Don, on the other hand, is clinging to a way of being that is rooted in a false past; one created by his own lies and the lies of the society he aspires to belong to. His world is the 60s and his personal collapse is reflective of the collapse that society is about to undergo. Yet, unlike Betty, we've really begun to see that he understands this has always been inevitable. Part of our sympathy with him is not for his actions but the knowledge that we want something that can never be, and never really was except through our own deceptions.
Peggy, conscious of her role as a pioneer but unconscious of any desire to BE a pioneer (she just wants to work), is a terrific counterpoint to them. She and Sal are the colliding particles in the whole accelerator that the next 5 years will be for these characters.
Can't wait for the finale...and I can't wait for Season 4!
Early prediction is that they skip ahead to late 65. Post-LBJ election, as Vietnam is beginning to dominate, and as the era of terror and riots 67-68 loom on the horizon. -
Henry, that is.
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...surely has to admit that this season is the weakest of the three. I found last week's episode a welcome reminder of what this show is capable of, but this week - while good - was...well, predictable. As soon as we saw the date on the wedding invitations, we knew what was coming, this was a foreshadowing - and they duly used the JFK assassination as a touchstone for everyone's situation; the "official" ending of an era, individually and collectively. Which it was, of course, like Altamont symbolically signified the end of the Sixties. But I was disappointed in the by-the-numbers rote way in which it was handled. It seemed an excuse to reiterate rather than progress some themes and allow people to take stock of where they are - Pete's stasis, the disintegration of Don and Betty, Roger's longing for Joan, Peggy's liberation through work (and Duck). And, incidentally, I hope there are no sudden deaths, shocks, revelations, outbursts because that would be the equivalent of a gratuitous Sopranos or Shield-style "whacking" or the advent of an evil twin in a shitty soap, and this show is above that sort of thing. It's invested in the characters, even if the writers did an unusually underwhelming job last night. Or maybe I do them a disservice: maybe the Dallas moment, while offstage was almost too dominant, too big - and they realized it, and therefore consciously allowed it to mute everything and everybody...Wish we'd seen the Brits and Bert's reaction, and the poor bloody teacher, and Sal's...but then it'd be a 2 hour show. Still, Connie Hilton's back next week to fill the father void in Don's life. No pressure there, then.
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Is a concept I don't think applies to anybody on the show. I think mostly they are just people trying to get through life. Occassionally the characters might do something considered to be good or heroic but those are subjective terms in my opinion. They are just people and people can reach heights unimaginable and sink to depth unfathomable. Mostly its just somewhere inbetwen the two.With that being said, the characters that might have the chance for a some sort of "heroic" redemption could possibly be Peggy and Pete.
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Great episode. Really conjured feelings of 9-11 for the latest generation. I especially loved Betty's shock and disgust after witnessing Ruby's killing of Oswald. Just a great moment of frustration as the world seems to break down around her. I think that was the catalyst for her finally deciding that life was too short not to tell don how she really felt.
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I'd have to disagree with you there. While I've loved every moment of this show I can honestly say that this new season has been much better for me that the last. I've found myself talking about this season more than any other in terms of the greatness of each episdoe week after week.
And I don't think JFK's assasination was supposed to be a surprise at all. They've been telegraphing that all season with little hints here and there of the timeline. Some not even hints like the Halloween episode last week. Anybody paying remotely attention to the details knew what was looming on the horizon. -
Boxcutter: I won't say you're along, but you're definitely in the minority if you think last night was a weak episode.
Chewbacca Khan: Yes, Don is the main character, therefore even when he plays bad, we still kind of root for him. But I'm getting a little tired of painting Betty in such a horrible light when she does a lot of the same exact stuff Don does. She feels empty, and she's trying to feel the void. Why does that make her ignorant, Nixonian, and self-centered? -
Both have hot blonde wives who can be a pain.
Both have three children including one new born.
Both are pretending to be someone they are not.
The last one being one of the defining attributes of their respective shows. -
I don't think I can fairly say that her reaction was childish there, for someone living at the time. First they're all shocked to learn about Kennedy, and then days later (I forget how long after) the mysterious guy who supposedly killed him is murdered on live television. I can't imagine how you couldn't feel the world is out of control.By the way, does anyone else find Francis to be really creepy with the way he acts toward Betty? His, slow, calm way of talking and little smile just bugs me.
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I'm really enjoying the analysis. There's nothing really to add here except that I agree with most of the posts, and its refreshing to read. Certainly reflects well on the show as well.
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Of course trying to discern who the non-evil from the evil copywriters might be the hook to the hook.
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Nov 02, 2009 12:40:39 PM CST
Betty's disbelief to Oswald's shooting typical of most who saw i
by growltiger
I remember seeing it and it shocked me to hell and back. And I was just a child. When I told my parents they were stunned, too. Disbelief on top of tragedy does not begin to describe those days.
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It was two days after the Kennedy assassination that Oswald was shot.
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I don't think that those actions of Betty's which are the same as Don's (e.g. the philandering) make her ignorant or Nixonian. And I'm not the one who said childish.
The actions I was discussing are those that I feel reveal an attitude of entitlement toward happiness on her part, even as she doesn't know what would make her happy. That I call ignorance of self. Examples: Don takes her to Italy and when she gets back she dismisses it with that damning last line as if she wants to escape. And yet, she is angry at Don for hesitating to sign a 3-year contract. "Don't you know where you're going to be in 3 years?" She can't decide where she wants to be, or who she wants to be, and that break I find self-ignorance.
At the same time she resents those she sees as preventing her from reaching that happiness. She's never shown to have anything but barely restrained (at best) resentment toward her children for the responsibility they impose on her. She resents Don for when he tries to make her happy, she resents the world when it can't just go along with her conceptions (What is going on?), etc.
While I think that Don shows some of the same behaviors and attitudes I don't think his and Betty's are based on the same motivations and desires. Don resents a world that he knows can't last because he wants it to last; Betty resents a world that can't last because she CAN resent it, her only identity at this point is defined by what she doesn't have: happiness and self-knowledge. -
Starting out the episode freezing, then too warm...there are factors outside of anyones control that affect their comfort zone. Like how it was referred to in the third person, "the building".
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Barbie and political Ken. Don't half the politicians in America have pretty manikin wives just like Betty? She'll stand in her cloth coat and smile and wave, and keep a bottle of scotch hidden just out of sight.
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And then stand by their man with a look of grim determination, when the pol announces he had sex with a Haitian poolboy while snorting coke off a donkeys ass.
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He's happy now.
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The way he talks up his political career to Betty, it seems that he's merely trying to impress her, and doesn't have as much political power as he implies. Betty will fall for this, but when she realizes that he isn't who he said he was (much like Don) she will leave him to and try to get back with Don. I hope that's where it goes anyways, since we haven't ever seen Betty be the one coming back to the marriage with hat in hand yet, unlike Don which we've seen a few times.
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HERC: What will be the date on Don Draper’s desk calendar when season three begins? Will we miss seeing Peggy’s reaction to the Kennedy assassination or The Beatles’ arrival in New York ?
MATTHEW WEINER: I’m going to say that I don’t know, because it’s really true. And I love that they’re excited about another season because I don’t even know what it is yet. But I know one thing, which is that I think everybody’s seen enough of the Kennedy assassination. I know I have. It’s certainly going to affect the show and their lives and I guess we’ll see their reaction. But I definitely don’t want to go through that dramatically. It’s probably the most dramatized event that I’ve experienced in my life, at least for my age. It’s something I’ve seen over and over and over and over again. As I writer, I don’t really know what I could add to it. But it will affect these people’s lives; you know I’m going to take it seriously. I just don’t really see us coming up on that. -
...will not compare to Don's, me thinks.
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Well he didn't lie. We saw their reactions to it and it will assuredly affect their lives significantly but this episode will probably be the last we'll hear of it directly or thematically.
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To me there's really very little difference in quality between the seasons. I think the second has been the best so far probably, but it's really slight edges here and there. I don't find any of them to be particularly lacking. I suppose you could say this season was the weakest because there was one episode that underwhelmed me and that didn't happen in the other seasons that I can remember. I don't think there's anything weak about it as a whole though
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If you don't mind me taking this deep discussion to the shallow end of the pool, can I just say that Henry's daughter was freaking hot? If I've read the info right, she's the model Veronica Taylor (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1814480/). That's not the first time this show has zinged me with a stunning minor character actress, let alone the gorgeous regular cast. Remember Laura Ramsey as Joy?
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I already said this already. He works in the Governor's office, he's not an elected official.Anyway to BizarroJerry's point he is a little creepy. It's interesting that Betty is attracted to fantasy - Henry is not "real" to her yet, and Don is all-too-real. The dashing Don of her dreams is gone, replaced by a gypsy or hobo, and now the fantasy of Henry Francis is irresistible to her in all his unknown charm. How about when he talks about taking her to the movies ... He says think about that - and a big smile suddenly breaks out on her face (great moment, btw) ... She is so taken with this dream he's given her. It's certainly a dangerous situation. When she finally meets Dick Whitman, she wants to run into the arms of another mystery.
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I noted that sound effect myself and also took note when the boy said, "It's cold outside." I thought it (literally) was the late autumn / early winter winds outside the house and (symbolically) was the chill between Don and Betty. In any case, notice our boy Don said, "I'll be okay." He is a survivor.
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I'm hoping that next season dawns with the irrecovaable end of the Draper marriage. That relationship is a corpse and has been for a while - indeed, it's already starting to stink. Betty may be somewhat sexy, but she's her father's daughter (and what an a-hole he was!) and that makes her bad news for any man that gets involved with her except, perhaps, for those guys who are really, really into the whole Stepford Wife thing. I definitely want Joan back in play and her bland, spineless husband permanently out of the picture. I'm still hoping for an eventual suicide for the sociopathic Peggy; that "thousand yard stare" of hers, coupled with her naked ambition and Jekyll-Hyde moral sense, really puts the chill in me. And Don? Man, that guy is still a complete mystery to me. Give me a guy like Roger Sterling any day. Yes, he's a selfish, hedonistic bastard (I felt so sorry for Mona when he was giving his toast at the wedding - she's still in love with him!), but by God he actually ENJOYS his women and his booze. Contrast that with Don's obsessive womanizing; sure, Draper gets more female ass than a toilet seat in a ladies room, but the sex - and the women from whom he gets it - doesn't seem to fulfill him in any way. What the hell is he actually hungering for? That schoolteacher he was seeing was, understandably, just a bit of ass-wipe to use once or twice and then throw away. But if that department store heiress he was seeing in the first season - a woman of genuine intelligence and substance - couldn't fulfill him, then Don is a lost cause. I can't wait to see what the late 1960s and early 1970s does to these characters What a terrific show this is!
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I thought you'd be excited to see her again as Peggy's apparently morally vacant roommate? I did a double take when she asked Peggy why she was with Duck if he wasn't married. WTF?
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and accidentally caught a piece of metal on there which slingshot right into the motorcade.
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I believe its the first time a motion picture director has helmed an episode.
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Nov 02, 2009 3:31:21 PM CST
Sorry, I didn't recognise Carla Gallo with her clothes on.
by cookylamoo
But yeah, I'm a fan, obviously.
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Wife leaves drunken philandering husband a takes up with man who COULD have political aspirations. Sounds like a happy ending to me. And fuck the kids, they'll grow up to found Enron.
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He directed Rivers Edge.
and there needs to be a hero AND a villain on this show why? -
...she's a terrible person, not a victim. You keep giving her the whole "She's an oppressed housewife" excuse. We've seen that all she was before she met Don was a model. And that she enjoyed being a model, it wasn't as if she was some kind of tortured good-looking woman who wanted to be considered for more then her looks. She had every opportunity a person could have ...and she became a model. She never loved Don. This season, I think, more then any other proves it. Don was just a character in her imaginary play. He played the tall, dark, handsome and successful former "highschool football star". She resented him lying to her about things, like anyone would. But, it wasn't out of love. It was from the threat of her "play" stopping. She just wants to live the life of the glamorous wife, with the glamorous husband, who have the glamorous family. Their trip to the Hilton hotel earlier this season shows it; Like a child who's very sweet and happy when they're getting what they want, Betty was content there more then anywhere else. She turns down those other men at the cafe because they don't fit the part of the successful buisness man Don does. When she found out where Don really comes from and who he really is, it ruined everything for her. When she keeps saying he's ruined everything she really means he's made them go home from the hotel in Paris, and she has to deal with reality. The guy who works in government is just Don's replacement. A recasting of actors for her fantasy. That's why I say everyone else on the show are the ones who are really like what our first impressions of Don are: They want something or want to be something based solely on fantasy. Based solely on ...advertisements. Don's the only one who wants things that are genuine. He's the only one who sees the falsehood of everything the other characters want. That's why he's so good at his job.
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...she'll probably sleep with Henry and then realize how small and unimportant he is. Here's what I picked up about him last night. In one breath he was willing to "leave the campaign" and throw his career away for Betty. That doesn't sound like he's a very important cog in the system. I also got the feeling that he wants to get in her pants and then he's going to be done with her. Don't ask me why, but to a lot of men women like her are conquests. Henry's already divorced with his own children. Perhaps he has a string of Betty's he's done this to over the years. I just don't think his attraction to her is based on anything more than her looks. He knows nothing about her. I think she's a notch in the bedpost to him. I also don't think he's rich. He might have been but perhaps his divorce took it all away. She's only seen his office (which wasn't anything incredible) and his car. She has no idea what he has. I think once she learns who the real Henry Francis is, she'll be longing for Don. Someone said earlier in this thread that we've seen Don stray and come back to family. I think we're about to see Betty do that. I just wonder if Don will take her if he learns about her infidelity.
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I don't really want to take up the mantle because my understanding of the character's actions this episode makes it hard (see my comment above). However, I could easily imagine a credible defense of her behavior, along the lines of similar defenses of her earlier behavior. I think TopHat's ideas are well-reasoned even if there is actually little textual support for them than I'd like.
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It would be un-Mad Men like for Henry to turn out to just be using Betty and drop her just like that. We've all seen that movie a million times - I'd be surprised if they went that route
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Say what you want about Don Draper, but if he decides he wants to nail someone besides his wife, he doesn't make a huge deal about it or burden anyone else with his reasons or attractions. Betty can't take a shit without making everyone else smell it.
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A behind the scene type and more then likely a Bagman. In other words he's even scumier then the politician he works for.
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This show will be interesting down the road.
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A divorced woman with kids in that era is damaged goods. Very damaged goods. While it seems a little soapy to think Henry could just want to nail her and be done with her, it was just as soapy to have Peggy have Pete's baby. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen. I have no clue. But I don't Henry Francis is who Betty thinks he is and it'll be interesting to see what the red flag is with him. I think it has to be something, otherwise the show is going to have Betty leave Don for him and live happily ever after which I don't think they will do. Betty is a principal cast member and a focal point. Her leaving Don and disappearing doesn't add up to me. They can't play out a long separation since they've done that with them already. I just don't see them writing Betty out of Don's house. Something, I think, is going to make her come back.
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with Don walking out of a screening of "2001: A Space Odyssey"..drives to the airport..buys a plane ticket for Bali...gets on the plane...fade to black...end of the series.
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...is fascinating! Considering everything we know about her character and the social conditions of that time (conditions that *produced* her character), is it really that difficult to muster up any sympathy or understanding?
I'm not saying she's not a very flawed human being, but is it really that egregious compared to, oh, anybody else on the show? -
I think that Henry is not who Betty thinks he is is almost a given. I just don't think he'll turn out to be your typical predatory jerk. More likely he is a foil for Betty's fantasy jones. She'll find out more about herself than about him, is my guess.
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There was no audio on the copy of last night's episode which I purchased offa iTunes!
Now I have to deal with Apple's customer service before I get to see the episode!
Which means I hae to avoid reading this talkback until then!!!
Which means you won't benefit from my sage insights!
Really, it's you guys that I feel for the most... -
I'm not saying Don is model human, but he doesn't burden other people with his flaws. And he hasn't confused I don't want to sleep with you right now with I don't love you.
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Holy shit, what a knee-jerk, misogynistic appraisal.
The broad just found out that everything she knew about Don's past was a lie, which means, ergo, everything she thinks she knows about Don's PRESENT is a lie, too. What she's come to realize is that with such a person, you have no baseline, no sense of consistency or predictability. He's like a junkie or a chronic gambler. ANYTHING is possible...like the guy screwing the kids teacher, f'rinstance. Little wonder she wants to jump ship.
He got caught, and now it's all falling apart, plain and simple. The larger question is how Don learns to rein in this self-destructive streak that caused this...even Betty was surprised he would be keeping the records of his former life around the house. Ever heard of a safety deposit box? -
I wonder if it could grab an emmy for all five seasons. That would be unprecedented.
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I think the principal reason Don kept all that info close by and in a drawer with a a whole lot of cash is quite simple. Don's entire life is based on running and he wanted that info on hand if he had to get in the wind fast. I will not be surprised if in future episodes we find out that Don has a history of running away as child.Look at it from Don's point of view. He's a trick baby, that we've learned in flashbacks, wasn't all that loved or even liked by the people who took him in. In the episode where he got drugged and robbed, his memory of his adapted father was one of him making fun of Don and how Don lives. Don did not want a contract because that is a tie that binds. Don likes the idea of a family or of individual loved ones(or slam pieces) yet as soon as the fantasy of that situation wears off he gets annoyed and is ready to run.I think Don's life can be summed by the opening words of the Allman Brothers song Midnight Rider "I've got run to keep from hiding"
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I'm not happy for Mr. Draper but I am happy for myself that I don't have to watch this slow scab peeling any longer. Betty IS the villain of the show, Don Draper has been completely emasculated.... time for Story "B".
Let's get Pete, Duck, Peggy, Joan, everyone else that is not a part of the Draper marriage back in focus and have Don hook up with teacher girl or have another lost weekend.
If the new season continues to be about Don and Betty, I'm going to have to fast forward to the other characters I haven't grown to hate. -
There's a long history of horrible wedding moments, drunk speeches that go wrong, but this episode had to have had the most painfully awkward wedding ever conceived and put on a screen.
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that's how I watch the show too... sorry your audio got messed up.
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If a divorce from Betty is to be anything, I think it will be a reaffirmation for Don that abandoning the cowardly or weak aspects of his character was the right move.
Dick is not imitating the real Don Draper. Don Draper is just the name he gave to the idealized version of himself.
In the previous episode, when Betty asked him who he really was, and he replied 'Don Draper', he was speaking the truth. There is very little Dick Whitman left anymore, because he has become comfortable and confident as the Don Draper he created. He lives what he dreamed.
Dexter Morgan is living a double life, because he's always aware and reminded that he has to be two different people. The idealized Don Draper has all but buried Dick Whitman.
I'm not even certain that he actually loves Betty either. He loves his kids and the idea of a strong family, but I don't think he's committed to it. He is very much the apologist and bridge-mender when it comes to Betty, but it looks like it's a balancing act to maintain status quo as opposed to genuine remorse or confliction.
Betty is the perfect wife for Don Draper. The school teacher is the perfect wife for Dick Whitman. I think maybe his ideal match would have been Rachel Menken. Hopefully they'll bring her back into play. -
Oh just stop it
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Actually, I can totally buy into your analysis of Don, which is what's so amazing about this show...that it can present both sides of a situation and the disastrous misunderstandings that can take place in the communication gap.
Betty isn't a villainess...she's actually pretty normal. She wants stability, and Don isn't programmed for that outcome...his life is the result of a chain of ugly circumstances he's been forced to bury. On the other hand, his reflexive deceit perfectly suits him for his career as a professional liar...an ad man. -
The contradictions of the society and culture these characters come from is what this show is exploring. There are no heros no villains just flawed people. Betty is a product of her society, the first season when she discusses her mother with the shrink she tells how her mother wanted her to be good looking so she could get a good man but she didnt like when she became a model because it was acting like a prostitute. All these people have been brought up and taught to fill certain roles in society, be a good mother, be a good husband, but they have natural desires that conflict with those roles. Betty did what her mother wanted and got a man with her good looks but once she had him she didnt know what to do with herself except smoke and watch the children. They all want something more but dont know how to get it without breaking the rules of society, it's no surprise that now that society has started to crack so do some of those roles.
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just people with flaws trying to live thier life. or as its commonly known, Humanity.
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Nov 03, 2009 12:54:17 PM CST
divorcing because "not in love" is unrealistic in the 60s
by takingscorpioscalls
That bullshit about Betty being "not in love anymore" as a pretext for divorce in the 60s is fantasy, no one did that back then, if you didn't like your partner you just sucked it up. But of course what do you expect when most of the show's writers are women.
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Nov 03, 2009 1:26:52 PM CST
Betty is the most unlikeable--that makes her the villain
by cylon_conspiracy
Just like Baltar in the last BSG, he wasn't inherently evil but he was cast as the villain if there were one. That's what they're doing to Betty. Only difference is it's impossible to find her sympathetic.
Do you guys actually consider what's being said or do you just like to put down other talkbackers? -
but he's not too bad now. There is no one definite villain.
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Pete was the villain previously. Now it's Betty. Hopefully next season it's someone else because I am sick of watching their marriage fall apart. Seems like the writers agree and are speeding up the inevitable.
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...Don cheats, so, obviously, he's the big bad man. Betty is pretty and a 1960s housewife, therefore, she's just misunderstood. Don is not an "anti-hero" like Tony Soprano. He's searching for reality, a geniune life. He gets sidetracked like all of us by marketing. Betty, and the other characters, are looking for fantasy. They buy into the marketing. Don, in part, from what he's been through, doesn't. Saying that thinking Betty is the villain of the show is misogynistic is exactly the reason why she's the villain to begin with; In shows/movies that take place during this time the women are usually portrayed as just victims. They're a product of their time. This show, and I think its quite obvious, enjoys turning archetypes around. So, in the case of Betty, they've given her all the cliches of being the oppressed housewife, but, gave her dimension to show how terible a person she really is. In shows/movies dealing with this time, they always make female characters like Betty the unsung heros. In MAD MEN they've flipped it. They've made her the unsung villain.
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To anyone who watches this show and sees Betty as "the villain," I am curious as to what the appeal of this show is for you, as apparently it's NOT the opportunity to gain some historical perspective.
Betty is a housewife. Her parents are dead, her bro's a dick. Her previous job was modeling, work that depends on superficial considerations and comes with an expiration date. She was raised to be a proper object and she did everything she could to fill that role to perfection, yet her efforts offer her zero protection. Her other job opportunities consist of being a secretary or working at a department store. Don has lied to her from the start, disappeared/reappeared, carried on affairs behind her back. Even the legal bonds of her marriage are in question because Dick Whitman is not actually Don Draper. Yet she's the villain, because her attitude gets on your nerves?
Reading comments like that, along with the "Peggy's a sociopath" comment, are just a reminder of how little certain underlying attitudes have changed. -
I tell you, some of the "Captain Save-a-Ho" mentality a FEW of the responses display are a little disturbing. I don't care what era it is... women have always had the ability to cuckold their husbands and become the dominant one. This "women are the victim" shit is not true in EVERY ASPECT. Just because she is a housewife does not mean she is some powerless angel. At ANY TIME she could have found a more powerful, more successful husband and completely RUINED Don's life, taking his children, his home... and guess what? That's what she's doing with the politician dude. She's going to ruin Don's stability at least and probably his relationship with his children, and when the dust settles, she'll be the one with all the power.
Stop making this adolescent delusion that women are precious little flowers that must be protected by a caring, compassionate man who has a striking resemblance to yourself. -
Personal flaws do not invalidate claims of unjustified oppression, anymore than being oppressed confers saintliness.
I don't see where the writers have "flipped" anything. I appreciate the fact that they create nuanced, multi-dimensional characters, as opposed to heroes and villains. It's not an either/or proposition. -
You need to realize that all sorts of opinions can be held while appreciating things in a broader context. The point of the show is not lost on me, the struggles the characters are going through is not lost on me, nor is the intention that the writers may have to portray Betty as a sympathetic character, lost on me.
I just happen to feel that her character is deliberately not as cut and dry as you want it to be, and I feel the writers are adding complexity to her character and allowing this "weak, fragile victim of her era"woman to actually have some balls and is actually a much more strong, and empowered woman then YOU are able to comprehend.
Once you get past your own false notions that women are EVER truly helpless or weak, you'll see just how much power Betty really has and how she is calling all the shots.
Finally, I would suggest that you step outside this notion that if someone doesn't see things your way, that they are somehow dense or unable to see what is "really going on". Respectfully, I think you are actually the one who isn't picking up the real thrust of Betty's character.
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Your level of assumption is staggering. I certainly do NOT believe women are "EVER truly helpless or weak." But look at the power you offer...just find another man! fulfill the misogynist ideal and show your true colors as sexually manipulative! I do not believe that female strength begins and ends with the vagina. That is your hangup.
And regarding your praise of TopHat...No, it's the lack of ethical reasoning, the short-sighted beliefs regarding "power," the brutal misanthropy, and tenuous grasp of logic that are disturbing. -
Seems to me we are all drawn to what we "learned" growing up. My dad worked in auto parts, and everytime I take my car to the shop it's as if I know those people from childhood. But I wanted better for myself, so I walked away from that. I have family that didn't.
Don in describing Dick's upbringing last week told Betty about his Mom, his family upbringing, etc. The teacher seems to me to come from the same type of upbringing. That's why I think Don is so drawn to her. "What is it about you?" he kept asking. What it is is he knew her before they ever met.
Betty, on the other hand, was brought up "wanting" the fantasy...thinking that was what was supposed to be. Someone else above said this same thing. She was willing to ride it out as long as Don fit the bill, but he doesn't anymore. The shine is gone, and it's not because of his falandering. It's the lies. She found a way to pay him back last season for the screwing around. Don's not the real deal anymore, and Betty wants out.
So I agree with whoever previously said they all have flaws and are doing their best to survive their flaws and the flaws of the people around them.
Just life. -
I see I hit a nerve. I think it was a respectful post to you, maybe someday you can have a courteous discourse as well.
To be frank, I think you are the one proclaiming the mysoginistic viewpoint. I say that because YOU are the one who is choosing to see her as a victim of her times, you're pointing out all the little things she has to overcome, yet you don't see that she is a truly powerful woman who is 100% in charge of the situation.
I am the one seeing the "real woman" of this fictional character. You are the one who is awash in stereotypes, and seeing her as weak. If you think women are weak, that's sexism my friend. Although I know it's probably unintentional. -
At least good villains, they are always doing what they do for the right reasons, at least in their minds.
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usually the good guy from the other side. Betty is a villain from my point of view because she's a shitty mother and prefers manipulation to sex. I tend to like Don more because even though he nails everything that moves, he doesn't make a huge show of it. But people who value the concept of honesty over its function will probably see things from Betty's point of view.
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That's true as well. Although he is not a faithful husband and it really is inexcusable, the last thing he wants to do is hurt Betty or say anything cruel to her. Whereas Betty takes a certain pride in the ways she can insult Don and just make him feel like an ass. Like most strong women who know they are in charge of their husbands.
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I'm reminded during a funny review of a shitty movie by filthycritic how he said the villain sucked because he wanted "to be bad" which was bullshit. This is also a reason why i'm not so into the Joker hype from Batman, causing chaos for the sake of chaos is retarded.
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It's not about "victims" and I never said that Betty is weak. But the place she occupies in the society at that time is a weaker position. Don can run off and get a job and everything's peachy for Don. He has options that are afforded him owing to his gender. Much in the same way that he took someone else's identity in order to have access to the advantages that wouldn't have been afforded to him as Dick Whitman, owing to his class. Or the same way that Don & Betty can hire a black woman to watch their kids owing to the advantages afforded them on account of being both white and financially secure.
Are you seriously implying that social structure has no impact on people and the options realistically available to them? The only power you've implied that Betty has access to is via her sexuality and her ability to lure/keep a man. Can you not see how that would be severely limiting?
That's an amazingly illogical point of view, though a popular one these days. That only a misogynist can point out misogyny. That you'd have to be racist in order to notice racism, as if it would magically cease to exist if only people would stop pointing it out. -
"Capt save-a-ho" is not a phrase that screams "courteous discourse."
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for someone with that name you seem to have a very fuzzy grasp of who the villain in BSG was. Baltar? Really? Cavil, Zarek or even Tory don't strike you as filling that job title a little better? Baltar was a coward for much of the series, but he was clearly portrayed as a very flawed human being, not the bad guy (not that there weren't nuances to Zarek or Cavil, but they were drawn with somewhat broader strokes). Steps in that direction were occasionally taken with the character, but they were never really explored. Until the last episode, Baltar remained a coward with the great fortune that people, especially women, kept imagining seeing in him leadership qualities he never possessed. He's a fairly passive character, which is not exactly indicative of a villain.
Also, I don't really get the equivalence you draw between "unlikeable" and "villain." If that were the case, the villain in the current season of Dexter would be Rita (the annoying wife), not Trinity (the evil serial killer) or Dexter's Dark Passenger (the "good" serial killer). But she isn't, and neither was Baltar, in any traditional sense. -
This show is not about villains and heroes. The word just doesn't make sense in the context of Mad Men. The fact that you're doing verbal contortions to redefine what a villain is so it fits in a Mad Men discussion is proof you're barking up the wrong tree. Just use a different term or series of terms. It literally sounds a little insane to me to defend Don Draper and castigate Betty Draper in the context of their marriage. Don created the entire situation from which sprung all other eventualities. I'm not defending Betty's reaction 100% but I really am curious how you think she should respond to her lying, cheating husband so as not to be a "villain". If you've ever known any married women who are cheated on, you know they don't take it very well. Usually men don't either. Again I don't want to defend Betty per se because I think the character has an unhealthy relationship with reality and that has informed the way things have played out, but even if that weren't the case, a similar reaction would be understandable.
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(unless the "bad guy" is the clear protagonist, like Dr Horrible); they need protagonists – heroes in the most general of senses – to play off of. There need to be sides between which people can choose, and in these cases, it's possible for villains to cross lines and switch sides, to join the good guys (and vice versa). Heroes is such a show, BSG and Lost mostly are/were, and basically all procedurals fall into this category. Black and white, heroes and villains, with some greyscale thrown in to make things interesting.
However, on an Altman-esque show like Mad Men, with so many flawed protagonists and so many different imagined lines, there's not much point in upholding the dualism.
Sure, you could describe Pete as Don's primary antagonist in season 1, and Duck as his primary antagonist in season 2. But their relationships were more complex than that, and the *characters* were more complex than that. Pete was a dick for revealing Don's secret, but Don wasn't exactly treating him very well in season 1. Duck had his own demons (which, by the way, I find interesting that we haven't seen much of this season), and his reasons for acting like he did.
But there are more characters in Mad Men than just Don, all with their own "enemies," and none of these antagonistic relationships can be summarily put in between the two big pots of "good" and "evil." How many battlefields would you have to draw if you counted every "side" the show has to offer? Without *one* clear enemy for *most* of the protagonists, there are no clear heroes (and hence, no clear villains).
Now, season 3 *has* shaken things up a little bit. The only villains who readily come to mind in Mad Men are the Brits (Lane Pryce excluded, because he is awesome). They've behaved like soulless corporate arseholes basically without exception. They are the only "enemy" against which all of the primary protagonists at Sterling Cooper (including Pryce) could rally. Now *there* you have two clear sides.
Betty? Betty is annoyingly immature at times, and I'm afraid she'll do some very shitty things before the season's out, but that doesn't make her the villain or the bad guy/gal. -
I said that Baltar was not inherently evil but he was fulfilling the role of the villain, since in the original series he WAS the villain. He was always the one everyone was suspicious of, even if he didn't do anything wrong, even if he was actually trying to help, most people just assumed he was a bad guy. So, nothing fuzzy there. Being "cast" as the villain doesn't actually mean the character IS a villain... it means they are fulfilling the role of antagonist in the show. In Baltar's example, sometimes the antagonist, who wasn't really an antagonist.
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You're entitle to your opinion, which is wrong by the way. Please stop expressing it and please accept my opinion as the truth it is. Please, please stop having an opinion that is clearly wrong.
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Words have meanings. It's not an opinion, that's why there are dictionaries and whatnot. You either misunderstand or misuse the word villain as it pertains to fictional narrative.
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Well said
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menstrual_blitz
Sure she's in a weaker position in the MIND'S of some people... what I'm saying is those are illusions. Those barriers are not there. She clearly demonstrates that she always has the upper hand in the relationship with Don. So, from my perspective, she is fully empowered. This episode with the politician and her telling Don (and making him feel like an idiot, like the bitch she can be) is her finally acknowledging that all along, SHE has been the one with the most options. Those with the most options, have the most power. No matter the decade.
Social structures can TRICK people into thinking that they have limitations. All it takes is someone to step outside of those structures, and hey where did all those structures go? They vanish.
Women RUN the world. They control the men. And in this show, even if it may seem that the men are in charge, it's always the women who have the last word.
You are the one who keeps talking about her sexuality as if it were something to be ashamed of or is some type of fallibility. A woman's sex appeal is not to be played down or dismissed. That is TRUE, genuine power women have, not only because of their sexuality, but because they have the BRAINS to use it. Women know how to use their "assets" in such a way that they can get what they want. That is just stating the obvious. And I don't think there's any reason to suggest a woman should feel somehow ashamed for claiming that power.
I'm saying you are being misogynist because you keep pointing out how BAD it is to acknowledge that women have a sexual power, and that demonstrates that you aren't totally kosher with women just being who they are, and expressing their sexuality and using their sexuality for personal advantage, which they have every right to.
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You need to expand your understanding of what fictional narrative and realize that good fiction often plays with traditional archetypes. Being a villain is not black or white. It's simply being an antagonist.
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You are talking out your ass.
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I watch the episodes of this show multiple times. I love this show--I can't believe you guys are so quick to just dismiss fellow fans of shows because they don't enjoy it in the same way you do and then you second guess if they really understand what they're watching. I think you guys may take this way too seriously. Genre nerds aren't known for having a lot of friends... might help to cut back on the anti-social, closed off attitudes towards others.
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So do you just wholesale exempt women from ethical behavior? Or do you consider predatory behavior to be an ethical ideal? Are women and men doomed to be locked in combat, fundamentally at odds?
I have no problem with female expressions of sexuality, but I do have a problem with the 'as long as I've got mine, fuck you' type of mindset. You would have women's real sexual power usurped by turning it into a crude tool for surviving (again, surviving at the whim of whatever man they're with), just another role to play. Nothing free or genuine about that. You are mandating that women use their sexuality as a weapon to control men and to accrue wealth. You say I have a problem with women "just being who they are"? Hilarious. Yet you assume who "they" are is a homogeneous mass that thoroughly enjoys sexual manipulation as a means of getting by in the world. Seriously?
The notion that, to you, it all comes down to the psychology of the individual, that even objective economic barriers in a capitalist society are somehow "just in the mind" and can vanish if individuals would just think them away, is a thoroughly bourgeois fantasy. And yet you still diss Betty! Perhaps you two have some things in common. It's kind of funny when you think about it.
I really don't see us coming to any agreement on this. Keep in mind, I never questioned whether you understand the show. I don't think there's a single way to interpret it. I just wondered what kept your interest, since you've clearly stated that you consider social structure to be an illusion. Have at your opinion, by all means. And I'll have at disagreeing with you as I see fit. I enjoy a spirited argument every now and again. -
This is kind of stupid, it's a t.v. show, one of my favorite shows, but I don't like the assumption that somehow my worldview is a deterrent to me understanding good drama. That's an elitist attitude, I don't want any part of it. If I participated in that, I apologize.
I don't think shows that fans like should devolve into these discussions.... we're not discussing the show anymore, we're just accusing each other of having personality defects. Kind of childish, and I shouldn't have gotten involved in it.
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I can see how all points of view would appreciate the show. It's like BSG in that way, all sides of an issue are explored then you get to choose which interpretation is more favorable... that's a sign of good writing. But yeah, I'm done with the "I'm a more authentic fan of the show than you--you are not a real human" thing.
Peace -
Who is a more authentic fan, to my mind, never entered into it. Just conflicting points of view centered around a really good tv show, that's all.
Cheers. -
He's the only one with real mustache-twirling intent to upset the equilibrium. Mofo's so cold he threw his beloved dog out on to the mean streets.
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Was the most f'd up scene in the entire series, as far as I can remember. I wanted to throw up when he did that. But, I almost forgot about that. Now I have to remember to dislike his character more.
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They're two different terms, one for structural description (a character's relation to the protagonist(s)), one for moral evaluation. Baltar not being evil kinda makes it impossible for him to be the villain. Antagonist, yes, but even that wasn't true for most of the series.
If you want to redefine those terms for your own use, that's fine; in fact, I'm a big proponent of interpretational relativity. But keep in mind that if you want to relay your interpretations to others, communications will eventually break down if there's no terminological agreement between the participants. -
Sir I want to hire you as my spokesperson
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Thanks for giving me the permission to redefine those terms for my own use. I was going to ask your permission but I didn't want to bug you. Now that you tell me it's fine to think of things in my own way, and to express myself however I see fit, I feel much relieved. And, gratified that I chose you as my personal mentor on what is ok to say and what is not, ok to say online.
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It appears Jardinier has hired you as his personal butt-kisser. You're on his payroll, not the other way around.
A butt-kisser is someone who kisses the anus of another person with the intent to relax the person who's butt is being kissed, and to also gain favor with them in the future.
Just to be crystal clear on my definitions.
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Wow, you're trolling a comment I made to someone else? That's a new low. First, you whine and cry that your feelings are hurt when people disagree with you, or when the dictionary disagrees with you. Then after requesting "courteous discourse", you come out with this, your piece du resistance wherein you go into a jealous rage because someone compliments someone else on their ability to clearly communicate, an ability thrown into sharp relief by your own stumbling, fumbling attempts to express yourself. To top it off, your "crystal clear" definition of butt-kisser is dead wrong. No-one wants to deal with someone who doesn't know what a butt-kisser is, even if you do like to throw around fancy words like "anus" and "relax". For all anyone knows, to you "anus" means "automobile" and "relax" means "earn money". Keep us posted, pal.
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I really hope the hero defeats the villain in the season finale!
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I thought "ass" was a language you understood.
Thanks for being more clear. People can't talk about a fucking t.v. show without defining their terms beforehand, because this shit is uber important.
And honestly, if you thought I was stumbling and bumbling, you wouldn't use gay expressions like "piece du resistance" and "thrown into sharp relief" if you didn't think I would understand what you were saying.
In conclusion, don't tell people what they can and can't say in regards to a tv show. That way you can avoid being called names. -
No one can just say "here's what I think" without a bunch of people who have nothing better to do explaining to them that they just don't "get it". You guys grew up being picked on in high school and now you're doing the exact same elitist, everyone else is stupid but me attitude you were crying over. I'm glad I never go to ComicCon because I can imagine the bloodbath and physical violence that goes down over who understood the true emotional complexity of how Sam Worthington was looking at his Avatar in the glass case, and how it was a reflection on some lame ass metaphor that was never intended.
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and no-one here is denying you that right. You don't need my or anyone's permission to voice your opinion. For all I care, you can speak in tongues, spell words backwards, or redefine "gay" to mean "educated." But don't throw a fit if people call you out on the fact that your semantic rearrangements don't jibe with the consensus other speakers of the language have reached.
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I said "gay" just to piss him off.
The whole point is you guys think that you are more educated and more in touch with a show than I am, just because I see a show in different terms than I do. The underlying idea is "there is only one way to look at the show, my way, and anyone else is stupid."
Does it ever occur to you that talented writers get together in the hope of engendering these exact types of discussions in the first place? If everyone saw things the same way, wouldn't it be a little boring?
You guys didn't get what I was saying because you take everything too literally. Which means you're closed-off to new possibilities. All that equals, boring.
I can't believe that you really think that there was no intention on the part of the writers, in any of the episodes, to suggest that just possibly Betty MAY have been playing the role of "villain" or "antagonist" or "person who stirs shit up" or any other term that you think, is mutually exclusive, that all mean the same thing "bad guy."
Who cares if the consensus disagrees with me? Might makes right? Majority rules? Have you ever heard the term "think outside the box."
I'll say shit about you, but one thing I won't say is that you are stupid, or that you don't have a grasp of the English language, or don't know how to communicate. -
since you persist in putting words into my mouth I have never said nor intended. Chill, man, I have nothing against you. If you re-read this talkback with a less defensive attitude, you might find that we don't all have it out for you. But the truth is, you have some weird opinions, and you'll have to live with the fact that they'll be challenged.
And no, might does not make right, and living languages are very, very open to all kinds of variations. Dictionaries aren't authoritative. But they *are* guidelines: they present a consensus that most speakers (of English, in this case) can agree on. You can still disagree, that's your right as an individual. But communication depends on the assumption that specific words have at least approximately the same meanings for everyone involved in the conversation. And the consensus does not agree that "antagonist" and "villain" and "bad guy" and "person who stirs shit up" are completely synonymous. They are to you, obviously, which makes any debate about this between you and me (or Thunderbolt) moot.
Coming back to the topic at hand, Mad Men, I can see how one could call Betty something of a trouble-maker for Don (though I don't necessarily agree with that notion; her struggles, at least until two weeks ago, have been very internal, and expressly focused *away* from Don). I just think it's not particularly helpful to conflate that term with the many others you've mentioned, in particular "villain," which I consider to be very loaded. After all, there's a reason these are all different words; if they all have the same connotation, where's the nuance? -
That is all I am talking about. See, you can see where I'm coming from even though you disagree. The thing that is bothering me is some comments that since I have a different point of view, then clearly I don't understand the intention of the writers. I can completely understand WHY you guys are thinking of these characters, in the way that you are. But when I hear comments like "well, you obviously don't get what the show is about" that bothers me. It's an elitist attitude and I hope I'm not the only here who thinks elitism is extremely douchey.
No one is going to be harmed because I choose to speculate on what these terms mean. I'm not putting a gun to your head, and my even misinterpreting these words (in your mind) is not going to harm the show or affect your ability to enjoy it or discuss it.
So, to make this extremely clear... tell me you disagree. Just don't tell me I am missing some bigger picture. -
I'll concede that to you, we can debate what a character is all day. That is not the part that is bugging me. All that is bugging me is the assumption that I am somehow incapable of appreciating the show from your perspective. Most of the comments I read about the show, I can say "yes, I see where you could draw that conclusion."
So I'm not pissed-off that you guys are necessarily questioning how I am using these terms. Just the notion that I don't get the show on different levels.
If we can at least agree on that point, then the animosity on my end is over.
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because she has a vagina.
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I loved they way they showed people reacting to the news coverage. We've all seen those clips a thousand times in our lives, but it's different to see how people reacted viscerally to the events. Particularly Betty's reaction to Oswald's murder.
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Smitten!
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I wanted to avoid it but I can't help it. She's just as hot and cool in that show too.
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Didn't expect him to react like that over JFK.
Say, to the people who were alive at the time, is it true that people in 1963 thought of LBJ as a "more-of-the-same", establishment-pig, type of politician? Did people immediately believe that he'd undo JFK's work? That's the impression that you get from the way Pete reacts. -
...from NBC and ABC, rather than CBS. I mean, we've all seen the famous Walter Cronkite footage a million times.As the date of the episode became clear, I was really afraid that the show would rely too much on the Cronkite footage to tap into the shared media experience of the audience. So I was really impressed when a character switched from Cronkite to another channel. It was nice to see how the other network was covering the event, and nice to know that not everybody in America was glued to Cronkite on that day.
And then the show ruined if by going back to Cronkite, especially for the famous "big moment" where he takes off his glasses and momentarily loses his composure.Ok, I recognize that it's a seminal moment in television history, and also a genuinely powerful scene to watch one of the greatest newsmen of all time lose his composure, but I've seen that clip so many times! Using that clip seemed like a too-easy choice for exploiting the emotion of the moment.
I really wanted to see the report confirming that the President was dead come from NBC or ABC. I think that would have been way more dramatic, because the audience EXPECTS to see the Cronkite clip. To then NOT show the Cronkite clip would cause all sorts of dissonance in the brain of the viewer, and the Interwebs would have been buzzing with geeks debating why they didn't use the Cronkite clip.
Could it possibly be that NBC and ABC didn't save that moment on videotape or kinescope? That would be hard to believe. I know they reused videotape a lot in those days to save money, but surely they wouldn't have discarded sure a seminal moment in history! -
There are younger viewers who may not have seen that footage. Probably trying to tap into what is perceived as "the essence" of the coverage, which is probably best represented by Cronkite crying.
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...how many younger viewers (or older viewers who do not have a pretty firm grasp of history) are regular Mad Men watchers.
It doesn't seem like the kind of show that would attract much of a younger audience (or older people who have lived under a rock for the past 46 years). -
Nov 06, 2009 1:19:27 PM CST
I also expected Duck and Peggy to miss the big moment completely
by royston lodge
I think it would have been way better if they'd been fucking away and not found out about the President until they got back to the office.
That would probably have scarred Peggy emotionally! She would have immediately channelled her uber-Catholic mother's voice saying, "you're the reason he's dead!" -
How broad or how focused a show gets based on who they think is watching, holding onto the core audience while not alienating new viewers....I'm 32. I have a larger sense of history but my own personal memories don't really go anywhere before 1980 and I don't think I was really aware of the wider world around me until the whole Reagan/Soviet Union thing. And the only reason I was even aware of that was because all villains in the movies from those days were Communist thugs from Russia.
So I am not really a younger viewer but the times they are showing in Mad Men aren't times I've personally experienced.
My dad on the other hand, gets so much more on that level because he was my age right when this show would take place. So he can tell me things about that time I never would have got from just the show.
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It's an election year!
The famous "Daisy" ad, created by DDB, which happens to be the same firm that made the Volkswagen ads that Sterling-Cooper made fun of.
It's also the year of "The Pepsi Generation" and "Please Don't Squeeze The Charmin". Those campaigns may not get as big a mention on the show . . . heh heh heh... -
Nov 06, 2009 1:33:13 PM CST
I'm 34. Virtually every documentary on JFK or the 60s...
by royston lodge
...uses that Cronkite clip. I'd be very surprised if anybody with an average level of education has never seen it.
Sure, I can see how lots of kids may never have seen it, considering the reduced focus on teaching history these days.
But the Cronkite clip is like the moon landing, or the challenger explosion. You gotta try really hard to find a person who hasn't seen those clips. -
It's an effective way to convey emotion in a short amount of time. One of the most famous broadcasters tries to not tear up while reporting JFK's death. It gets the message across in a few moments. I don't think they are trying to appeal to JFK enthusiasts.
If you look at the link Hercules provided above, Weiner says that he is personally not that interested in retelling the JFK story, because he thinks people have seen enough. That's probably a good an explanation as any of why they didn't really worry about the particular coverage being shown. -
through the character's eyes. It's not the first time you've seen the footage, but it is the first time the Drapers have. So the contrast between your "I've seen this so many times before" and Betty Draper just being in shock watching the exact same thing is interesting.
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That was the clip where Lee Harvey Oswald was murdered by Jack Ruby on live television. Seeing Betty's reaction to that was really, really effective and totally belonged in the episode.
I just thought the Cronkite clip was a wee bit clichéd, especially the way Duck turned on the tv after fucking Peggy JUST in time to see Cronkite make the famous announcement.
It reinforces the quasi-myth that everybody in America was watching Walter Cronkite at precisely that moment, when obviously that can't possibly be true.
Like, I thought it was a nice touch that Roger was giving his toast his his daughter's wedding at the same moment that Cronkite was making the announcement, so everybody who showed up for the wedding and actually stayed at the reception missed the big news.
I guess I just think it would have been more dramatic to have a few more characters miss the big moment, and have their reaction later when they find out they were doing something else (like fucking in a hotel room) during this huge moment in American history, or to have characters watching NBC instead of CBS to illustrate how millions of people DIDN'T share in the collective memory of Cronkite's announcement.
It's like, so much of the show is about breaking down myths, but with this episode they reinforced the myth of the "Cronkite moment".
It's not like I think it was a huge failing of the episode. I really only intended it as a little throwaway critique. -
Nov 06, 2009 2:37:37 PM CST
In other words, it would have illistrated the contrast between..
by royston lodge
...television in 1963 and the 24-hour news reality of today.
On 9-11, if you didn't see the destruction of the twin towers on live tv it's not like to missed the event, since it was replayed ad nauseum immediately by every network.
In 1963, if you weren't in front of the TV at that moment, and you didn't have your TV tuned to CBS, you missed it, man. Your experience of the day will be completely different than the narrative that gets repeated over and over again for the next 50 years.
I just think it would have been a neat dramatic opportunity to explore characters who don't fit into that sort of "official narrative" of how that day went down. -
I laughed out loud at that, and then I felt a wee bit of shame for laughing at it. Great little moment.
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The Aqua Net story boards had to be replaced because they resembled too closely the film of President Kennedy being shot.
The thing is, Kennedy's murder wasn't shown on live television. The iconic footage comes from the Zapruder Film, an 8mm film shot by an amateur. That footage wasn't screened in public until the trial of Clay Shaw in 1969.
Still, I enjoyed the scene. -
In about every MM tb prior to season 3 i was pretty much harping on wanting to see this year, mainly because it's the first "official" year of counterculture and their fashion styles will have THE most abrupt change, more than anything seen from the previous seasons. I mean way more colorful if they want to get it right.
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in my opinion. I think we're just so media drenched today that we don't appreciate how it had more impact back then. You're right, I was thinking of the Oswald scene with Betty, but you get my overall point.
I think the most effective way to show how people were feeling was the wedding scenes. That said way more to me than watching anyone's reaction to the tv coverage. I mean, that had to have been the most awkward and anti-climatic weddings I have ever seen. -
Totally turn their backs on the profession, move to northern california, the whole thing.
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He is the most disillusioned with the industry. He wants to be successful but he is realizing that he has put so much time and energy into something that has no meaning. He seems aware that there is more to life and I think he's finally realizing that his job is not it.
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Nov 06, 2009 7:36:12 PM CST
Pete won't become a hippy, but he might get a better job.
by royston lodge
Reading some articles on www.adage.com on the history of advertising (top 100 ad campaigns, top 100 people in advertising, etc). They sometimes refer to 1961 as the "creative revolution" where strategies and tactics in advertising were changed forever. The people involved weren't hippies. Instead, they were using new research into persuasion and decision-making. Pete seems to represent a character who is trying to embrace the new order in the ad biz, while Sterling-Cooper is firmly old school.
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He might have some great awakening. His whole life has been built on doing the right thing, trying to get other's acceptance, and he would fuck with anyone in order to be successful, to get that acceptance. Perfect character to one day say "Fuck this" then move away and grow his hair and beard out and in a few years look like George Harrison.
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Nov 07, 2009 7:31:39 AM CST
Wouldn't Mr Bohemia, Kinsey, be the perfect candidate for that?
by jardinier
Maybe a little too obvious. And honestly, I've thought for a while that his open-mindedness is more of an act, an attempt to distinguish himself from his surroundings. Plus, he's bourgeois; he doesn't strike me as the revolutionary or back-to-nature type, so I wouldn't expect him to do anything *too* radical.
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if he's already smoking pot, playing the guitar in 63 and this is someone who works in a NY ad firm, by 69 he's going to out-Timothy Leary Timothy LEary!
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He accepts that he has to go part time with his real ambitions to be a famous or influential artist/writer to work for the "man", so he doesn't have this overwhelming need to break out of his lifestyle. Seems to me like Pete is having a sort of an identity crisis and those are the type that would most likely go as far as they can in the other direction, because they live in a world of extremes.
That's what I want to see though, Pete turn his back. Maybe get involved in the music industry or something like that." -
Damn mad men must be getting the ratings. Betty will have scenes where she smiles and laughs again, via sketches where she is actually not Betty but a different character.
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