Greetings! ScoreKeeper here scaring up some Halloween spirit with my first ever tandem interview featuring both a director and composer. I couldn’t be more excited to be featuring this two-headed monster who was instrumental in concocting a film worthy of passage into the pantheon of fun seasonal scare-flicks embraced during Halloween. I first saw TRICK ‘R TREAT (2009) two years ago and ever since I’ve been dying to share it with those who have yet to unearth this decidedly undead film. With several false starts, the film has finally hit shelves on DVD and Blu-ray and the score CD was recently released by La-La Land Records. Now, as a special Halloween treat (or is it a trick?) from yours truly, I bring you my interview with TRICK ‘R TREAT writer and director Michael Dougherty and composer Douglas Pipes. Trick or treat. Smell my ear. Give me something good to hear…



ScoreKeeper: The delayed release of TRICK ‘R TREAT was an awkwardly unique experience for me as an audience member. I first saw the film two years ago and ever since I’ve been wanting to see it again and enjoy the great score accompanying it as well. Michael, I’d like to start with you. Can you go back and briefly detail the history behind getting your ideas for TRICK ‘R TREAT out of your head and onto the screen. Michael Dougherty: It first started in 1996. [Laughs] It was a three minute animated short about a trick or treater wandering around after midnight. It was called SEASON’S GREETINGS (1996), which is on the DVD and Blu-ray for people to watch. I first introduced the character (Sam) there. That character kept popping up into a lot of my artwork like my personal stuff, greeting cards, sketches, and doodles. There came a point in 2001 when I wanted to make the transition to screenwriting and so TRICK ‘R TREAT became my spec script. A spec script is that initial screenplay that all writers do just to prove that they can write something and so I purposefully set out to create what I would call “a companion piece” to Carpenter’s movie. I’m a Carpenter fanboy. I love HALLOWEEN (1978)! When Christmas rolls around you have your options of Christmas movies to watch. You have IT’S A WONDERFUL LIFE (1946), A CHRISTMAS STORY (1983), you have A CHARLIE BROWN CHRISTMAS (1965)…Well, for Halloween we have NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS (1993) and HALLOWEEN and horror movies in general and that’s about it. I wanted to create just a Halloween horror movie. A horror movie that you would pull off the shelf every October and just watch it all month long. It took a really long time to get there. The first draft was written in 2001. The first producer who picked it up and said, “I really like this, let’s get it made,” was Stan Winston. As a first time writer that was a big deal because I had been a loyal disciple of Stan Winston’s. He was like an idol of mine. He tried his hardest to set it up. It came close to getting made quite a few times but just never happened. Finally in 2005, I was working with Bryan Singer on SUPERMAN RETURNS (2006) and he had read TRICK ‘R TREAT back in 2002. That was when we said, “Do you want to write X-MEN 2?” He read TRICK ‘R TREAT as a writing sample and which got me the job on X-MEN 2 (2002). He had known about the trouble of getting the movie made. So finally when we were wrapping up SUPERMAN, he said, “Listen, you should direct this. It should be you,” which I was flattered by. He brought it to Legendary Pictures and Warner Brothers and helped get it set up. It was an uphill battle. We got it made and finally finished it and it was like having the rug yanked out from under us because they said “Sorry, no theatrical….We will figure out a release before 2008, hold tight.” 2008 went by and nothing ever happened. So it’s been a very long, a really long road, and it just feels great to close this chapter of my life [Laughs].

SK: I can definitely imagine…You have lived with this movie in your head for so long and then, even after you got the green light to make it, you were probably thinking a lot about music. At what point did you finally choose Douglas Pipes and get him involved? MD: Well, I’m obsessive about collecting soundtracks. I remember as a kid my dad gave me the LP of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (1980) and it was amazing! I would put it on my little kid stereo system and play it. It was like reliving the movie again. This was before we had home video, so that was the best you could do…to play the score. That began may obsession with collecting scores. They play a really different part in my writing, or drawing, or anything, if I’m just trying to get into the creative mood. Depending on what it is I want to write, I’ll put on a play list which captures the right feel. With TRICK ‘R TREAT I had a lot of different horror movie scores cobbled together that I would play for writing sessions. When it came time to pick a composer it was a challenge because we didn’t have a lot of money. The budget for the entire movie was 12 million bucks and there was even a point when one of the producers said, “Listen, we are not going to be able to afford an orchestral score. We are going to have to go synth,” and that was gut wrenching. That’s the last thing on Earth you would ever want to hear. I definitely had a full orchestral score in my mind for the movie. I came across Douglas after seeing MONSTER HOUSE (2006), which I think is an amazing film unto itself. The score is really fantastic too! It captured the fun and mischief but also this kind of suspense and foreboding terror that you don’t hear too much anymore. The most important thing that he did, that made me dead set on hiring him, was he actually used themes. He used melody. It’s sad that that’s become a rarity. There are a lot of composers out there right now who I think are very talented, but they have their hands tied by directors, producers, or studios, because they are being told, “We just want some tonal moody stuff.” There’s nothing recognizable especially in the horror genre. Soundtracks to a lot of horror movies now are just blow and I knew that Douglas was up to the task, because of what he did on MONSTER HOUSE. It’s just beautiful!

SK: I couldn’t agree with you more, especially when you talk about the horror genre. I think horror is a microcosm of what’s going on in the film music universe as a whole. I don’t want to disparage any particular horror scores out there but I think you and I are on the same page that they on are the bland side. They aren’t living up to the traditions and passion behind horror films of the past. But I’m actually hopeful because I believe it’s the horror genre that is going to help lead the way back to this great film music renaissance. It’s amazing how many scores this year are among my favorites that are horror scores. TRICK ‘R TREAT is one of them…then there’s DRAG ME TO HELL (2009). Douglas, let’s get you in on this conversation…First of all, how did this project come to you? What was the first thing about TRICK ‘R TREAT that made you say, “I’ve got to do this!”? Douglas Pipes: First, I got the script and read it. The fact that you knew from reading the script that the intention here was for the movie to be fun and not some over-the-top, “take yourself too serioiusly,” painful movie going experience. It was actually going to be a blast to see. You could tell that all from the script. The clincher was after that dreaded first call from the director when you’re wondering if they are going to want something that you just don’t…that doesn’t come out of you organically, you know? That was the fear. As soon as we started talking about music, a weight was lifted off my shoulders because we were on the same page in ten seconds. He told me what he wanted out of this movie and what he wanted it to do. My eyes are just lighting up. I’ve been so fortunate to work with two directors that have that same kind of love for what film music can do, not afraid to go bold with letting the music do what music can do. It was that initial conversation that just got me insanely pumped up.

SK: How long was the scoring process for you from that moment you said, “Yes, I want to do this film,” until you finished it? DP: It wasn’t super long. Again, this is a little while ago, so it’s hard to totally remember, but something like March to the end of June I think we started scoring and probably started getting the bulk of the film done sometime in May. I would say the first scene I got was the scene of Stephen and Billy. You watch this and think, “Okay, funny. The tone is great. This is going to be a total blast.” It certainly wasn’t a super long time.

SK: Michael has been very vocal about his love of film music and I think that shows a great deal in his filmmaking. Was he a good collaborator? How did his relationahip with film music influence you and affect the output of the score? DP: When the bar is raised as high as it is, that’s a dream come true. The challenge is to try to meet Michael’s expectations. Sometimes I will find something that works and sometimes something that doesn’t work, but those times when you play something that you know clicks…that fuels you! You don’t need coffee. You don’t need anything. You can just go for days on that stuff. When I was playing music where he would react emotionally to and I positively knew he was into it, it’s just heaven. Then you want the next one to top that reaction.

SK: What makes a good Halloween film score? DP: That’s a real tough question. First of all, I’m a big fan of HALLOWEEN and the old scores from the seventies and eighties because they used analog synths and technologies that were available at the time. But I think for me it’s the film scores that somehow transcend time. I think you have to take the technology of the day out if you want to do that. It just so happens that orchestral scores give you the opportunity. I’m not going to say that every score has to be this big massive orchestra, but if you use your technology of the day wisely so that someone tens years from now doesn’t say, “This sounds like Halloween from this year or that year,” then maybe you can get that Halloween for any year.

SK: …and that’s what Michael said he set out to make – the every-year Halloween film. This is the movie I want to watch every year at Halloween. I listen to the music and it just feels like that time of year. I’m amazed how both of you fulfilled your goals of creating a film which evokes that classic Halloween spirit. MD: That was the goal at every level, from the visuals to its tone to music to sound. It was a great team effort to capture the essence of the holiday and put it on the screen. Some people might think, “It’s not scary enough,” but the point of Halloween as a holiday is not to be too scary. Halloween is a very friendly/scary time of year. It’s cute and it’s creepy. It’s scary and it’s funny. It’s about exposing yourself to scary things, but having a good time. You can’t make an all out brutal splatter fest Halloween film, because I don’t think that truly captures the spirit of the holiday.

SK: Yeah, it’s the trick and the treat. MD: It has to be a little kid friendly…kid friendly to your own inner child. I think Douglas’s score really captures that really well. DP: I was going to say, my favorite description of capturing that mood is I’ve seen some reviewers call his film, “A love letter to Halloween,” and I think that’s pretty spot on. That’s what it’s about. It’s not about killing someone at any given point; it’s about all of the things that are Halloween.

SK: Yes, I totally agree. Douglas, can you comment upon your approach to scoring this particular film. Because of the multiple narratives, or vignette aspect of the film, are you treating each vignette as it’s own entity? How do you bind them all under the same tent? DP: The easy answer is you know they are all different stories. They all have the common thread of, “it’s Halloween night,” and then they also have the common thread of, “there’s this character that’s representing Halloween,” who tends to appear in all of those stories. So the thematic use of the “Trick ‘r Treat” taunt that the theme is based on, appears in all kinds of mutations throughout the film. So that’s the common thread from a scoring standpoint. You don’t have separate stories with separate tones on each one. Each character has its own tone like the characters that are protecting Halloween or doing something wrong. Again, the “Trick ‘r Treat” theme that runs through the whole thing tells us “Yeah, this is of one common thread.” MD: That was the clincher for me – when Douglas came up with that theme for the film and the theme for Sam, our mascot character. That was when it really came together for me as a director, because at that point in time we were just kind of playing with a temp score in the editing room and it’s not that it was horrible, but it didn’t have the cohesion that you are looking for. Douglas did the simplest thing. He called up and said, “Here’s the theme for Sam.” All he did was he played a few notes on the piano [hums, “Trick ‘r treat, smell my feet…”]. It made me think, “Why didn’t I think of this before?” He took that really basic melody, which to me is just as iconic as “Jingle Bells” and he did all of these variations on it and scattered them throughout the movie. That made the whole thing come together and even give Sam this presence throughout the movie. Even if he wasn’t on screen, you felt his presence. It was funny how this simple little thing, this melody that we all sang as kids, instantly elevated the film and the score. DP: It’s actually never played straight on. It’s never played exactly as you would sing it as a kid. It helps give it that eeriness and creepiness and the, “around your back shoulder,” feel. The goal was to make it present both rhythmically and harmonically so it wouldn’t be in our faces so much. We checked around and to our knowledge no one has ever used it in a movie. No one used that simple basic melody yet. It was waiting for us. MD: Hopefully, if you are somewhere and you hear this music and the movie is playing in the other room, you know what movie is playing.

SK: I do love the melodic development in this film, Douglas. We have talked a little bit about the themes and melody, but honestly, one of the things that I’m really taken by in this score is your use of harmony. You have a very prolific harmonic vocabulary and its expressed well in this score. It’s always appropriate. The colors that you conjure up are extraordinary. I hear the oranges, browns, blacks, and reds all associated with Halloween. In the brief time that we have left, can you talk a little bit about how you utilized harmony in this score? DP: Yeah, that’s a very tall question, isn’t it? There’s something about Autumn and the colors of the leaves and the sounds you hear. I would have totally regretted not taking advantage of music to augment all of the beauty that is in this film. From a harmonic stand point, I’m a big fan of – when it’s appropriate – harmony that’s a little dense. Whether you want to call them polychords or not, I see music in 3D and I hear music in 3D. Likewise, I see a film in 3D and see all of this depth of sound and picture and the way that everything is set up. I want the music to also capture that essence. I hope I’m not speaking too technically, but the orchestra allows you to – kind of the same way there might be a door creaking way off in the left of the sound field – the orchestra gets to create a lot of that depth. Things were happening in space and in a film about Autumnal aspects and Halloween, there’s a lot of those things like winds and lot’s of… MD: We would talk about wind chimes a lot. DP: If you listen…There’s a great wind chime company in Texas and they make these world class wind chimes. You hit them and they ring forever and they are perfectly in tune. They call themselves, “The Stradivarius of Wind Chimes.” I ordered these and use them in different ways. I have wind chimes set to have the “Trick ‘r Treat” melody played and in a couple of places, you will hear the wind chimes played in the wind. MD: That was a part of my childhood. Since I was a kid we would always have this set of wind chimes out and it just felt like once October rolled into town. I grew up in Columbus Ohio, which was a great place to experience Halloween because October hits and it’s just like this cold wind comes in and everything changes. The light changes. The trees change. It just felt like with those wind chimes came this constant melody that you would hear walking around your neighborhood as a kid.

SK: Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I think that’s what evokes those images that are so strong in my mind when I hear that music. It’s October. It’s autumn with that crisp air. You can almost smell the food and everything that goes on at Halloween time. I think the solo piano, that sparse, distant, crisp, solo piano way up high that you use definitely lends itself to that as well. DP: It’s gives you a little bit of the chill factor…a little cold.

SK: Well, we’re about out of time. I feel like I just barely scratched the surface. I could go on and on but I’ll let you two continue your day and hopefully we’ll get a chance to reconnect again in the future. It’s been a pleasure talking with you both and I want to thank you for making a truly great film which I will indeed be pulling off the shelf every October. DM: Thanks! It was my pleasure. DP: Thank you so much.



I was intrigued by the way Douglas was able to communicate the inner workings of his music to me. Not every composer I talk to is able to do this effectively. I’m a music theory and analysis junkie so after our conversation, I emailed Douglas some more specific questions about “what’s under the hood” of his score for TRICK ‘R TREAT. I told him not to hold back or worry about getting too technical. He responded with a nugget of pure analytical gold.

Sam's theme is a mutation of the children's “Trick or Treat” taunt with a stuttered rhythm (extending the first note of each short phrase to double the length of what would be considered the "normal" interpretation) and harmonized in various ways, often with an Eb in the bass when the melody would imply a C major tonality (G-G-E, G-G-E, G-G-E-A-G-G-E). There often is a rising counter figure of a tritone hitting the 3rd and 7th of the implied tonality of the melody in the original instance to give a sense of a C triad built over an Eb triad helping bring out the major/minor aspect of the E natural vs. Eb. This is transposed and re-harmonized as well, shifting the melody to the minor third and root of a minor chord (D-D-B etc. over a Bm harmony), in so keeping the interval of the melody intact. The goal of this was to make the taunt more dark, creepy, sinister... The Major third accompaniment in the left hand of Sam's theme (when played on piano) is the same as the left hand accompaniment for Rhonda's theme, to tie the two protectors of Halloween tradition together ever so subtly in the music, and to bring their spirit together when their paths do cross.

On behalf of Ain’t It Cool News, I’d like to extend a chilly October thanks to Michael Dougherty and Douglas Pipes for taking the time out of their busy schedule to chat with me. It was a blast! If you haven’t already, check out TRICK ‘R TREAT and it’s Halloween infused score. Happy Halloween!!!!!

ScoreKeeper!!!