Ain't It Cool News (

CSI MIAMI Repeat Pushes
JAY LENO To Series Low!!
Surges!! Monday Ratings!!

I am – Hercules!! Monday 18-49 Finals (prior weeks in parentheses): 5.2 (5.5) (5.4) (9.0) (6.6) (5.9) Monday Night Football 3.8 (5.3) (4.8) (4.7) (5.3) (4.7) Big Bang Theory 3.6 (3.6) (3.5) (3.5) (3.7) (4.1) Dancing With The Stars 3.5 (4.8) (4.6) (4.4) (4.8) (4.5) Two and a Half Men 3.1 (3.9) (4.0) (3.9) (4.1) (4.3) CSI: Miami 2.6 (----) (----) (----) (----) (----) So You Think You Can Dance 2.6 (3.4) (3.5) (3.4) (3.6) (3.6) How I Met Your Mother 2.5 (2.4) (2.4) (2.2) (2.2) (2.3) Castle 2.5 (2.5) (2.4) (2.4) (2.5) (2.8) Heroes 2.4 (2.9) (2.8) (3.1) (2.9) (----) Lie To Me 2.1 (3.3) (3.0) (2.8) (3.1) (3.3) Accidentally On Purpose 2.1 (1.6) (1.7) (1.7) (1.7) (2.0) WWE Raw (10pm) 2.0 (1.7) (1.6) (1.6) (1.6) (1.7) WWE Raw (9pm) 1.9 (1.8) (1.8) (1.7) (2.2) (----) Trauma 1.4 (0.8) (1.1) (0.8) (----) (----) Jon & Kate Plus 8 1.3 (1.4) (1.5) (1.5) (1.7) (1.8) The Jay Leno Show 1.3 (1.0) (1.2) (1.1) (1.1) (1.1) One Tree Hill 1.2 (1.1) (1.2) (1.1) (1.2) (1.0) Gossip Girl 1.2 (----) (----) (----) (----) Real Chance of Love 2 1.0 (----) (----) (----) (----) (----) Cake Boss 0.8 (0.7) (----) (----) (----) (----) Little People, Big World 0.8 (----) (----) (----) (----) (----) No Excuses With Master P 0.4 (0.3) (0.3) (0.3) (0.4) (0.4) Greek 0.2 (0.2) (0.2) (0.2) (0.3) (0.3) Lincoln Heights (4.4) (5.0) (5.4) (5.8) (6.7) House Figures in grey represent repeats. * The big news is “Leno” matched its series low in 18-49 against a repeat of “CSI Miami” – this despite lead-in “Trauma” climbing a bit this week. NBC had hoped that “Leno” would improve as its scripted competition went into repeats. The opposite has proven the case. * “One Tree Hill” matched “Leno” in 18-49, hitting a season high. * ABC’s “Castle” also hit its season high, but it’s unclear whether it did because “CSI Miami” was a repeat or because Nathan Fillion dressed up like “Firefly” captain Mal Reynolds for Halloween: Find James Hibberd’s analysis here. Sunday 18-49 Finals: 10.7 (----) (----) (----) (----) Fox Football Overrun 5.9 (7.2) (6.2) (7.4) (6.8) NBC Sunday Night Football 5.2 (----) (----) (----) (----) ALCS Baseball 4.7 (4.6) (4.6) (5.0) (4.7) Desperate Housewives 3.4 (3.3) (3.3) (2.8) (3.4) The Amazing Race 3.3 (3.2) (3.0) (3.2) (3.0) Brothers & Sisters 3.0 (3.0) (3.0) (3.4) (3.1) Extreme Makeover: Home Edition 2.3 (1.9) (2.2) (2.2) (----) America’s Funniest Home Videos 2.1 (3.2) (3.5) (2.2) (3.2) 60 Minutes 1.8 (----) (1.9) (2.2) (2.1) Cold Case 1.7 (1.9) (1.7) (1.9) (----) Three Rivers 1.0 (----) (----) (----) (----) The Next Iron Chef 0.9 (----) (----) (----) (----) My Antonio 0.8 (0.7) (0.5) (0.6) (----) Dexter 0.7 (0.8) (1.2) (----)(----) Girls Next Door 0.6 (0.5) (0.6) (0.7) (0.6) Mad Men 0.4 (0.5) (0.5) (0.7) (0.6) Curb Your Enthusiasm 0.4 (0.3) (0.3) (0.4) (----) Californication 0.3 (0.3) (0.3) (0.5) (----) Bored To Death * “Dexter” has swapped places with E!’s “The Girls Next Door” to become Showtime’s highest-rated show ever.
Follow Herc on Twitter!!

Uncensored!! Unauthorized!! Who Really Created The Simpsons?? And Why Does It Suck Now??

$9: All Hail The King, Baby!!

Readers Talkback
comments powered by Disqus
    + Expand All
  • Oct. 28, 2009, 4:52 a.m. CST

    Ha, Castle!

    by Wandering_Prophet

    That was actually the first episode I've ever watched, a pleasant surprise awaited me. Not the greatest show ever, but casting Nathan Fillion in a crime show that follows the Joss Whedon playbook is as great as casting Bruce Campbell as a connivinng womanizer on a sexy spy show. Yep, I'm that guy. Now the big question is did Joss loan him the costume or does Nathan own it and wear it to bed every night. I'd like to believe the latter. ...Also first

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 4:54 a.m. CST

    Also there was a Buffy reference

    by Wandering_Prophet

    By Fillion, naturally. I didn't think they could go an hour doing a vampire episode without dropping the B-word, and they did it within the first 5 minutes.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 5:01 a.m. CST

    But Leno is changing television...

    by ZooTrain

    How? By making it virtually unwatchable? I've watched some episodes in passing. It's awful.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 5:38 a.m. CST

    Great About Dexter

    by RaRoMo

    This past Sunday's episode had 1.7 million viewers for the initial airing, which is incredible for a Showtime series. Dexter's pulling higher numbers every week (the season debuted with 1.5 million, which at that time was record-breaking.) Now if only Michael C. Hall could finally get the Emmy he deserves (with another Emmy for guest actor John Lithgow.)

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 5:58 a.m. CST

    Good for Castle refrencing that.

    by shutupfanboy

    Heroes is at least steady right now and beat out Lie to Me. NBC is in a weird place where if they start canning shows for ratings and Leno is still on, its going to look bad.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:04 a.m. CST

    Leno must be really cheap to produce

    by The McPoyle Clan

    'cause the ad rates during his show are pretty cheap as well.<br><br>Drunk celebrities and Gervais as host? The Globes are a joke, but on paper, they ought to be more entertaining than the Oscars.<br><br>Lost's Olympic hiatus is a bummer, but Lapidus is gonna be a regular!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:19 a.m. CST

    "Don't you think you should move on?" "I like it!"

    by br1947

    freaking great!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:42 a.m. CST

    Castle is great!

    by masteryoda007

    Funniest detective show around hands down. The mysteries are actually very compelling and no CSI pishy techno scenes. Just good old deduction at play. Touche!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:59 a.m. CST

    I got chills

    by aversiontherapy2

    Lame I know, but it was great to see him as Mal again, even in this context. He's still got it.<br /><br />Dexter's rocking this season, it deserves the boost. It constantly amazes me how the most critical and, at least amongst my crowd, lauded shows have so few viewers. And that includes 30 Rock...

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:15 a.m. CST


    by Bass Ackwards

    That Castle clip was great...though it reminds me how sorely I miss Firefly.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:18 a.m. CST

    Castle is great but

    by j2talk

    I'd till rather sit thru Leno than watch Caruso "act" in CSI:Miami

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:38 a.m. CST

    Still Waiting

    by Aquatarkusman

    For that Venture Brothers/Kevin Conroy talkback. Checked the zone, but that place is even more limited, topic-wise, than Herc's bizarre rotation.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:41 a.m. CST

    Dexter has been GREAT this season.

    by V'Shael

    I just hope they don't drop the ball.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:42 a.m. CST

    Haha 2...

    by Karl Childers

    NBC is going down in ruins. A lot of the network affiliates are bitching because they're losing ratings with their local news that broadcast after Leno.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:55 a.m. CST

    Castle is great Fluff

    by JacksBloatedPayroll

    I love that it doesn't take itself too seriously. And Kate Beckett is smokin hot.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:59 a.m. CST


    by Jamie McBain

    And I missed the episode, too!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:35 a.m. CST

    You can always tell when Heroes holds steady

    by Burgundy82

    because its failure isn't gleefully trumpeted in the headline. I thought it was just experiencing a boost from that lesbian kiss? Also maybe I missed the Castle promos, but surely they didn't they spoil the Mal joke ahead of time. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. Was it publicized?

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:52 a.m. CST

    Heroes was frickin amazing

    by nrn

    For the first time ever we get to see a hero/villan ACTUALLY use their powers. First it was invisigirl from veronica mars, then we got Samuel frickin demolishing a whole police station by moving his hands. After next episode heroes will be changed, FOREVER.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:56 a.m. CST

    Glad to see HEROES hanging in there

    by SpyGuy

    I have to say, Season 4 is becoming my favorite season since the first. Even if HEROES doesn't get renewed for Season 5, at least it's going out on a better note.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:36 a.m. CST

    Heroes will probably get renewed

    by shutupfanboy

    Its one of the few shows that NBC has that gets decent ratings that isn't on Thursdays. SVU is starting to get their audience back. Chuck is coming back early, so I am thinking they are going to move Heroes back to the spring instead of ending in December. Chuck will probably in for Tuesdays or move back to Monday at 8pm while they keep Trauma going.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:50 a.m. CST

    Probably Matt will get deep-sixed by Sylar (YAWNNNNNNNN)

    by PennsyDeux

    When it really should be the other way around.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:50 a.m. CST

    Trauma was picked up for 3 more episodes...

    by PennsyDeux

    So it'll run until at least 11/16 per E! Online.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10 a.m. CST

    CAKE BOSS has better ratings than DOLLHOUSE

    by ROBRAM89

    I'm just gonna throw that out there, America.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:21 a.m. CST

    Heroes has been good lately

    by Alientoast

    I like the Head Sylar/Matt interactions/battle. Dexter has been top notch this season as well. The end of this past episode was a huge surprise.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Heroes is fun to watch again

    by shoe1985

    The stories are pretty good, except Claire's. Everything is moving slowly, but it seems to be working better that way.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:50 a.m. CST


    by Refuge5

    Nathan Fillion still fits into Mal pretty well - it's time for more Firefly!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:09 a.m. CST

    Castle is good fun

    by xsi kal

    Fillion tries to throw in little shout-outs to the fans almost every episode. A few episodes ago, they all wore blue latex gloves at the crime scene, and the threw in a glance at the gloves and double-take. In the Halloween episode, in addition to the Mal costume, you can actually see the catalytic convertor from "Out of Gas" in one scene... apparently Fillion stole it from the set when the show was canceled, and decided to bring it in to the Castle set.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:10 a.m. CST


    by xsi kal

    "the threw in..." should be "he threw in" <p> Someday, we will be able to edit our posts!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:16 a.m. CST

    Burgundy82, I don't remember seeing the Mal joke

    by jim

    in the promo, although they did show the Buffy one.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:16 a.m. CST

    After praising the past few week's Heroes

    by jimbojones123

    I did not dig this weeks. Noah's story was strong as hell. Another plus, Traci is no longer to be randomly called upon by Noah. Claire's Lesbo questions, although hot, seems petty and trying to grab viewers. <p> Matt and Sylar- Matt is still a boring chump. I hate how dumb he is. Impairing himself to gain control??? Fuzzy at best. <p> I missed Pete. He is the moral compass of the show. <p> Nice not to see more stupid carnival folk infighting. <p> The upcoming Hiro episode has me more excited than anything ever in this show. Will Hiro also save Issac Mendez as well , sorry, Mr Ee-Sack? <p> I would give this a solid 5 of 10. Last three 9-7-5. All better than anything the past three seasons. I am enjoying being actively interested for the first time in such a long time.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:24 a.m. CST

    Heroes had some damn interesting stuff this week

    by StarWarsRedux

    Especially the Life/Death kid being murdered in a hate crime. T-Bag is looking more and more like a carnified, earthen version of Magneto-- going to war with the "normals" to protect all the "special" people, no matter the cost. And that's looking much, much cooler than companies going to war with each other, or some very half-baked government conspiracy cooked up by a turncoat hero. The story they're building now makes me wish they'd waited a bit longer to do the "Heroes" version of Guantanamo Bay. For the first time, I've actually felt that "war is coming" vibe is deserved. I just hope they don't kill off the Carny Ringleader like they do so many other interesting characters on the show.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:30 a.m. CST

    i really like castle

    by Ryanbraun14

    castle has been completely reliable for an hour of solid entertainment. Its not genius, but it is consistently fun to watch. I'm waiting until Castle's daughter is kidnapped--not because its a genuis plot idea, but because I want to see castle vulnerable and personally invested and how his character handles those things. Also, unlike mentalist, the girl detective is HOT and doesn't have a mouth that is constantly and upside down smile. The relationship between castle and beckett has been handled wonderfully, and i LOVED the flashback where you saw beckett at a book signing before s he knew castle... and her 'date' actually being reading his book in the bathtub... and this week having beckett knowledgeable about frank miller was a brilliant touch.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:33 a.m. CST

    and speaking about mentalist

    by Ryanbraun14

    first, I really like mentalist too. But this season of Psych has been one of the funniest ever, and i LOVE how they reference mentalist, because the people who created mentalist didn't even try to act like it wasn't ripping off psych. so its a riot when you hear mentalist references in psych, such as when gus and the the blonde dectective were looking at sean's browsing history, and one of the top sites was I loved it.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 12:35 p.m. CST

    "Impairing himself to gain control??? Fuzzy at best."

    by jim

    It was a ridiculous conclusion to leap to. It was obvious that Sylar became impaired thanks to the alcohol but there was no reason for Matt to think that it would be permanent, other than his own stupidity.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 12:42 p.m. CST

    Much of the cast had nods to former roles on Castle

    by Chewtoy

    ...such as Jon Huertas wearing his "Generation Kill" uniform to Castle's party, and Seamus Dever wearing bloody scrubs in a nod to his General Hospital role.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 12:47 p.m. CST

    On Venture Bros...

    by Chewtoy

    I love that show, but I thought that the Kevin Conroy episode taking the way-too-easy joke of the pedophile slant on Batman and Robin as the central premise of the entire episode was pretty lazy. However, the entire action news team being badly disguised superheroes had me busting a gut.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:04 p.m. CST

    I love Castle

    by JacksParasites

    I typically hate these kinds of detective shows but Castle manages to be an hour of solid entertainment with great back and forth between the two leads and actually fun cases. And this season, the cases have been even more fun than last season. The con artist episode from weeks ago was fantastic. It really was, as Castle said, the best case ever.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:06 p.m. CST

    Cap'n Mal wasn't wearing his space suspenders

    by Tall_Boy66

    you know how mal had different suspenders in serenity than firefly, he had the firefly suspenders here. also ''you're my candy beard'' was a great line

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:09 p.m. CST

    Enough with the Heroes.

    by Jayemel

    It has sucked ever since the first episode. No one is ever going to believe it's "getting better" as you brainwashed nuts claim. Go find a message board somewhere to talk about it.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Wow, Castle must be going downhill

    by lockesbrokenleg

    using a tired old Firefly reference to nab ratings?

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:41 p.m. CST

    The saddest thing about the "space cowboy" costume...

    by StarWarsRedux only people who know what "Firefly" is would know what the hell it is. Everyone else would just think it's a regular cowboy costume-- exactly what has anything to do with space in the outfit, exactly? <p>Oh, I know. He isn't wearing a hat. <p>Anyway, this is one of the reasons I could never stand "Firefly". Too much cowboy, not enough space.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:56 p.m. CST

    Holy Crap! "Castle" opening was one long shoutout

    by MGTHEDJ

    Guys, he has the outfit, he comes out of the room in his gunslinger pose, the daughter says what are you, and they play a snippet of "Firefly's" theme! She then busts him saying you wore that 5 years ago, since Firefly was on 5 years ago. Then she points out what lockesbrokenleg said about "no cows in space."<p>You know what, I'm adding "Castle" to the DVR.-----later-----m

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 1:56 p.m. CST


    by Ryanbraun14

    The joke was that he was a space cowboy and his daughter said there is no such thing. then he said how it was his costume five years ago. it was a nod to all firefly fans, whereas everyone else thinks its funny because they are like his daughter and think there is no such thing as a space cowboy, and if there ways, the costume wouldn't be anything like the one he was wearing.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 2:56 p.m. CST

    Harrison Ford s groaning right now.

    by lockesbrokenleg

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 3:33 p.m. CST

    Heroes was ok

    by Toonol

    Not as good as the last couple episodes, but still better than almost anything from last year. Funny that they're making Clair 'indecisive' about that whole lesbian thing. I guess that way it can be strung out over a whole arc. I think it's the Matt-Sylar storyline that's holding it back. Matt's character just seems so stupid.<p> That Firefly callout was pretty nice. Surely, CASTLE's main audience is middle aged women, who probably all stay up late thinking about Fillion, and yet have never heard of Firefly. Good audience for future Firefly DVD sales.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 3:40 p.m. CST



    Probably groaning because Fillion got to play the more compelling space cowboy.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 3:55 p.m. CST

    Ryan, I got the joke. It wasn't funny the first time. Just sad.

    by StarWarsRedux

    And Lightstormer, I'm not a big Han Solo fan, but don't make me laugh. If Fillion's space cowboy was so compelling, the show would still be on the air. In the words of that little-girl in the embed whose name or role in "Castle" I'll never care enough about to actually find out, "Isn't it time to move on?"

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 4:06 p.m. CST


    by lockesbrokenleg

    Oh my fucking GOD, did you actually say that? LMAO!! HAHAH! Good stuff.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 4:37 p.m. CST

    As far as space cowboys go...

    by Jayemel

    Kirk came before Solo and Reynolds, considering that Star Trek was designed as a cross between Wagon Train and Gulliver's Travels in space.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 4:59 p.m. CST

    Jayemel, good point. But...

    by StarWarsRedux

    "Trek" always struck me as less of a Western, more of a naval exploration theme, more "Master & Commander". Remember, Roddenberry pitched the show as a "space-age Horatio Hornblower", as well as "Wagon Train".

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 5:04 p.m. CST

    Furthermore, I've never been crazy about the "Space Western" gen

    by StarWarsRedux

    "Star Trek"-- less cowboy, more Melville. "Star Wars"-- pure, redblooded Space Opera, with a bit of Leone's West. "Firefly" didn't swallow its genre-trappings-- it choked on them.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 5:22 p.m. CST

    Castle's jump in ratings

    by thepoohguy

    was not due to the CSI repeat or the Firefly reference. It was one thing and one thing only...the incredible art of Jason Badower!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 5:40 p.m. CST

    StarWarsRedux, I never said...

    by Jayemel

    Rodenberry achieved the cowboy with Shatner's Kirk. He was too much of a communist to capture the American spirit. Abram was much closer with Pine's Kirk at the beginning of the new movie. Likewise, Lucas failed with Solo because Lucas is a liberal douche. On the other hand, Whedon came closest with Reynolds because Whedon is a libertarian and has the deepest philosophical understanding of what it means to be a cowboy. However, if you're looking for a scifi cowboy, you might want to check out The Middleman and his rugged individualism...

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Woah... Simmer down, Jayemel...

    by StarWarsRedux

    I was just bringing in the naval atmosphere of "Trek", no need to jump down my throat with the anti-left politicking. <p>The political angle is somewhat interesting, I'll grant you. It's yet another reason I'm not "Firefly" fan (I too am a liberal douche, or at least not a libertarian) but it's interesting.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Fucking BRILLIANT!!!

    by TommyGavinsEgo

    The Castle-as-Mal thing. <p> <p>I was in the habit of, er, procuring episodes of Castle down the magic internet tubes during its early season one episodes (it's yet to be shown in the UK) and really enjoyed it. Definitely going to catch up now, somehow. <p> <p> Huge, huge props to Fillion. The guy's a fanboy who knows he's onto the best gig ever. Actuallly happy to see his show is succeeding, he deserves all the expo he gets. And great to see others are enjoying it and recognising that not EVERY show needs to have a five-season plan, constant arcs and reduxes and edginess and flawed, dark characters. Fluff can be fun. <p> <p> In a perfect world, Firefly (oh how I loved thee, let me count the ways) would be coming to a planned, awesome, noble end right about this year, and Fillion would be poised to be the next Harrison Ford. Truly, he's the only pretender to that throne. <p> <p> Brilliant.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:35 p.m. CST


    by TommyGavinsEgo

    That's fucking top. Not to over-egg this, but I think I got a bigger kick seeing Fillion in the Mal get-up than I did when those first shots of Ford on the set of Crystal Skull were released. And the scene itself? Played pitch-perfect. Well done, Mr Fillion and fellow Castle-making people!

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 6:56 p.m. CST

    Whedon fans never fail to amuse me.

    by lockesbrokenleg

    With their fanboy talk, and their overrated praise of a failed TV series that most no one else saw.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:12 p.m. CST

    Well, Locke...


    if you think Han Solo was a better-developed character in the 6 hours of the OT movies than Mal Reynold's character in his 16 hours of existence, then there's nothing I can do to help you. You apparently don't know anything about it. I love the classic Star Wars movies just as much as anyone should, but narrativley complex they were not.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:35 p.m. CST


    by torpor_haze

    Google braintrust saw it...Firefly is about to be immortalized...

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:38 p.m. CST


    by lockesbrokenleg

    Star Wars wasn't meant to be complex.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:42 p.m. CST



    And yet you think it fair to say Han Solo was a better developed character than Mal Reynolds?

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:48 p.m. CST


    by Linguo_IS_Dead

    I'm impressed wrestling is actully beating out some NBC stuff!!! How come their advertisers suck? You'd think they could manage better than non-stop video games and KFC grilled chicken...

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 7:49 p.m. CST


    by lockesbrokenleg

    Yes. Han Solo went from a man with his own rules to someone who cared for his friends and even joined in the galaxy wide battle. Mal, well, he remained alone, and even in Serenity he's fighting with his crew.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:18 p.m. CST



    because Han Solo went from being a callous, shoot-second-and-ask-questions-later kind of guy to being a pussy-whipped, smiling-at-ewoks kind of guy, and Mal Reynolds was always a morally complex character who could kill someone if he had to, but always took care of his crew and protected them at any cost and at every chance, Han was a more compelling character?

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:22 p.m. CST

    PS: Locke...


    Do you actually enjoy Lost or did you pick your handle ironically? I personally think it's an extraordinary show, and very well-written. So if you are a fan, I'm having a hard time reconciling how you can appreciate something so good, yet bag on Whedon's work. I'm guessing it's based mainly on a distaste for the infamous Whedon dialogue.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:45 p.m. CST

    lockes doesn't actually watch ANY shows he posts about

    by chromedome

    (a) his clearly ignorant of actual content posts shout that he doesn't <p>(b)he only posts here to get attention and pseudo-contact with others<p>(c) he is too busy trolling in every single TB here to have time to actually watch anything and have an Informed opinion

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:51 p.m. CST

    Chromedome, Lightstormer et al...

    by TommyGavinsEgo

    ... Thanks for the back-up. <p> <p> Locke, go fuck off.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 8:52 p.m. CST

    Lightst0rmer, Whedon's dialogue...

    by StarWarsRedux

    ...really is enough to put somebody off of his works. Sure, fans are free to enjoy it as snarky humor, but to a lot of people it's incredibly smug, self-conscious and off-putting. I personally can't take anything one of his character says without a grain of salt as antedote to the heavy doses of irony laced in nearly every sentence he and his writers concoct, strewn as they are with overt pop-cultural references and paper-thin posturing. It's a style of writing that can entertain some, but prove incredibly distracting and distasteful to others, and since Whedon's productions offer very little in the way of imagination either in their B-movie storylines (which even fans will admit don't actually go anywhere interesting until a year or two into their runs) and often visually boring direction, there isn't a whole lot for viewers to latch onto if the characters and their dialogue doesn't catch them. Face it-- Whedon is an acquired taste.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:13 p.m. CST

    Whedon's dialogue...

    by TommyGavinsEgo

    Speaking as a big fan here, but I'll hole my hand up to his dialogue sometimes going way overboard, and I can understand how some would find it grating. I got into Whedon's stuff kinda backwards - dipped into Angel here and there, dug it, loved the quick fire dialogue. Then I discovered and was blown away by Firefly. Then went back, devoured Angel, and as a completist started on Buffy, which I'd always dismissed as a teenage girl's Scooby Doo (I was wrong), start to finish. I think that kind of dialogue was far more prevalent in Buffy. And I found myself actually counting some of his self-penned eps (some Angel ones as well) as the weakest, thanks to the constant stream of clever-clever, nudge-nudge banter. The other writers were superb at carrying his "voice" but thankfully dialled it down a notch. It's the same as in his press releases regarding Dollhouse (which I am not giving him a free pass on - it's just so frustratingly, crashingly average) - the snarky pat-self-on-back tone is just irritating, and screams of try-hard. <p> <p> The mighty, mighty Firefly however? The language was one of the richest things about it. I loved that dialogue. And it can't be held accountable for over-using pop culture riffs. Being as there were none, thanks to it being set five hundred years in the future.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:16 p.m. CST


    by lockesbrokenleg

    I've seen ALL of Firefly and Serenity. I know Whedon fans hate to hear someone bashing their show, but it's happened.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:17 p.m. CST

    In particular...

    by TommyGavinsEgo

    Season 5, episode 2 of Angel (I think) was penned by Whedon, if memory serves. The one where Spike comes back. Whatever, awesome ep, but I'm sure it starts with Harmony babbling on in full-on Joss-speak, and it really is a case of "oh just shut the fuck UP - NO ONE speaks like that!"

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:18 p.m. CST


    by lockesbrokenleg

    Han Solo killed people too. He shot Greedo. After Ben was killed, Han started to turn to help his friends. He finally completes his changing journey to return back to the Death Star battle to help the Rebels. You're just a Whedon douche.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:31 p.m. CST

    Heroes can't gain traction

    by Rob0729

    House is off the air this week and HIMYM is in repeats and Heroes doesn't gain a fraction of a point. This season is failing worse than Robert Knepper's some time's Irish, sometimes not accent on the show. I don't get why people are praising the season so much. It has been uneven to me.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:33 p.m. CST

    TGEgo-- Very good, very fair points

    by StarWarsRedux

    On the point of "Firefly", however, I still contend that the dialogue is a big roadblock for me. Granted, he isn't using pop-cultural references, but the self-conscious blend of Civil War-era dialect, costumes and mannerisms felt incredibly forced and strained to me. Stuff like "God won't let us die, we're just too pretty" and "cry baby cry, make your mother sigh" only made me cringe. <p>As for "Dollhouse"-- I find that show incredibly bothersome, especially because of the potential it has if it were only managed well. The premise is original, inventive and intriguing. The dialogue is far more subdued than in his other works, and for the most part the characters are actually rather entertaining, at turns both appalingly amoral and sympathetic (it helps that character actors like Olivia Williams and Harry Lennix fill their shoes). The problem, however, is two-fold-- first, there's the agonizingly slow development of the series' overall arc from Phillip K. Dick-style coroporate sci-fi to post-apocalyptic dystopian wasteland ("Epitaph One" is the probably the best thing Whedon has ever had a hand in) in favor of the increasingly drab and unoriginal "client-of-the-week" storylines. Second, there's the focus on Eliza Dushku and the "character" of Echo-- it's tough to empathize with a blank-slate persona like hers, even with the promise of her slow development into a richer, self-aware human being over the show's promised course. It's a rich challenge that demands a top-tier actress, and unfortunately that's not what we have with Dushku. It's incredibly odd that Whedon wrote this specifically for her without really taking into consideration her limitations as a performer, and to see her shoved in the foreground of the series makes most of it rather unwatchable. Perhaps the show could work now as an ensemble, but even so, her screen-presence (or lack thereof) is a tremendous drag.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:33 p.m. CST

    They thawed out Han in Jedi...

    by TommyGavinsEgo

    ... But his balls stayed frozen. They neutered him. The main crime of Jedi isn't solely cuddly bears, it's the fact that The Coolest Fucking Hero Ever To Grace The Screen does fuck all except run in and out of a shed whilst the others do all the work.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 9:35 p.m. CST

    StarWarsRedux, I was making a point...

    by Jayemel heat at all. As LlGHTST0RMER pointed out, Solo's arc was anti-cowboy, going from individualism to defining himself through others. It's the same story that has been told in American mythology since the early 1900s when thinkers such as Charles Beard introduced it as a way to usher in the New Deal. It's the same thing Scrubs did to Dr. Cox. With Firefly, Whedon subverted this convention. Likewise, shows like House and LOST discuss these philosophical ideas. Conversely, producers like Roddenberry and Lucas never did. They simply accepted the prevailing mode of thought and turned it into moving pictures. Lucas did so more than Roddenberry, who seemed to have more of a methodical agenda. Star Wars is just a mess of rehash of conventional storytelling techniques because, as LlGHTST0RMER pointed out of the triology(ies), "narratively complex they were not." (As for Whedon's dialogue, sometimes you suffer through it to get to the good. I'll often groan or tell the characters to shut up. However, that stylistic choice of his is why I think Firefly, Serenity, and Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog are his best work. They are the most self contained, and their wit feels witty as opposed to forced.)

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:10 p.m. CST

    "He killed Greedo."


    ...and??? Besides, according to the guy who created the movies and retconned Han's personality, he only did it because Greedo shot at him first. I grant you that originally, Han shooting him was a defining moment for his character. In the "official" version, it's what anyone in that situation would've done. <p> Mal, after refusing to complete a job on moral grounds, tried to return his fee to an evil crimelord via the crimelord's #1 guy, a huge hulk of a dude with tattoos on his face. When the guy told Mal he shouldn't bother returning the fee 'cause Mal would be dead soon anyway, Mal kicked the guy into Serenity's engine. That's a badass. Mal was Han, but cooler, and with more opportunities to show his intelligence.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:47 p.m. CST

    Oky Lightstormer, I'm not gonna convince you

    by lockesbrokenleg

    I'd rather blow my brains out than talk Serenity all night. Have fun, duder.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:49 p.m. CST

    Mal and Han Solo are two different people in

    by lockesbrokenleg

    Han was only looking out for himself and Chewie. When he hooked up with Luke and the others he was able to see the bigger picture. Mal grew tired of the bigger picture, and he went back into hiding.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Multiple Points

    by StarWarsRedux

    Jayemel-- Obviously we have a basic philosophical difference, but that's cool. Again, time-stamping the transition from rugged-individualism in westerns to self-sacrificing heroism at the New Deal is an interesting, if not 100 per-cent satisfying idea. We've always had cowboys and heroes in the west, usually the ones who wear masks to protect the innocent in their communities-- the Lone Ranger, circa 1933, is the most famous and fits pretty well into your timeline, but Zorro predates him by almost fifteen years and fits pretty much the same role. I can see the attraction of the lone gunslinger looking out for his own welfare and nobody else's, especially in the harsh realities which faced settlers in the old west, following the war between the states. Still, I prefer my heroes of the selfless type, like Shane or Kane in "High Noon", willing to sacrifice his life to defend a town too full of craven cowards to stand up for the man who's standing up for them. Other than that, I like my rugged individualists as Leone-esque anti-heroes, free from moralism absolutely instead of having to play it both ways. <p>Re: "Lost" and "House"-- haven't their "cowboy" characters been slowly but surely molded into stand-up guys to varying degrees, over the seasons? Sawyer has almost entirely become the Island's Han Solo, changed from an out-for-himself con-man to a man who regularly puts himself in the way of danger for his family of castaways. Even Gregory House has been losing much of his misanthropic character over the years-- besides this season's most overt attempts to tame his wild beast, we've seen him take more and more risks for the sake of his friends and colleagues, often at the cost of his own sanity. I think they're following Lucas' example much more than you think. Lucas himself, I think, did a lot more philosophically than you're giving him credit for (again, from a different point of view), but granted, there's a lot more room to elaborate on these ideas over the course of a television-series (even a short-lived one) than a feature-film. <p>As for the Greedo thing, Lightst0rmer-- I've never seen Lucas' alteration as changing things as much as everyone else does. In the original version, Han wasn't shooting Greedo because he was a cold-blooded killer, but because Greedo was-- when a guy's pointing a gun at you with the intentions of either killing you or handing you over to a crime boss who's put a price on your head, blasting him yourself is self-defence. Lucas' change here is just underlining the fact that it was a justifiable homicide, and not a senseless murder. Granted, it takes some of the Leone-badass flavor out of it, but that's a small price to pay when everybody starts thinking he's Henry Fonda's Frank instead of Eli Wallach's Tuco.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:07 p.m. CST

    Sawyer on Lost is similar to Mal

    by lockesbrokenleg

    But he went from a con artist, to a person generally caring for his plane friends by the fourth season. He does however, still get easily threatened.

  • Oct. 28, 2009, 11:51 p.m. CST

    "Timestamp" and LOST/House

    by Jayemel

    I never said that elements of rugged individualism and the free market didn't remain in American culture following the early 1900s, but that time period is undoubtedly when the shift occurs. I reject this shift, and thus my philosophical beliefs and preferences follow. The idea of the selfless hero is repugnant to me, as I reject (among other things) relativism and social constructionism (which manifests in people such as lockesbrokenleg saying Solo saw "the bigger picture" by no longer looking out for himself and Reynolds didn't see "the bigger picture" by continuing to look out for himself, even though Solo's "bigger picture" was to follow someone else's lead whereas Reynolds' "smaller picture" was to stand up for himself and his beliefs of individualism and the inherent goodness of humanity). As far as LOST goes: The character of Sawyer is certainly influenced by Han Solo (as I'm sure Pine's Kirk in the new ST movie was), but Lindelof and Cuse have yet to make Sawyer selfless. (It's important to note you can still care about others and have a self. If you are selfless, you necessarily don't have a self). I am very interested to see where his story will go in Season 6 for this reason. Likewise, House has been walking a very fine line with the good doctor this season. In previous seasons, the point of the show was always the philosophical contradictions of the arguments being presented to him as to why he should change. This season I am able to give the arc a chance because of the extenuating circumstances involving Amber and Kutner which have been intricately built. Finally, I'd like to note that I never said LOST or House and their writers were uninfluenced by the prevailing accepted culture. I said they had deeper philosophical discussions concerning these issues than most. The basic problem here is the illegitimate battle that has been created between individualism and "the bigger picture" by advocates of the welfare state. However, here is not the space to go into more depth on this topic. Instead, I'll remind you that: Existence exists, A is A, and reason is what makes you human.

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 12:19 a.m. CST

    I wondered when Ayn Rand would enter the picture.

    by StarWarsRedux

    At any rate, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the fundamental perspectives we both endorse. "Firefly" obviously fits your viewpoint, just as "Star Wars" fits mine. I wonder how many fan-differences can be chalked up to political and philosophical debates, such as these.

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 12:33 a.m. CST

    "Agreeing to disgree"

    by Jayemel

    is evasion. And I didn't refer to Ayn Rand. I referred to philosophical premises. (Although, Ayn Rand is extremely relevant when referenced in unison with characters such as Sawyer and Don Draper).

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 12:51 a.m. CST

    Politely respecting a difference of opinion is evasion?

    by StarWarsRedux

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 2:21 a.m. CST

    Ayn Rand was also an insufferable douche

    by lockesbrokenleg

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 4:20 a.m. CST

    I call bullshit on you, lockes.

    by Dingbatty

    It's one thing to have a personal dislike of Firefly or Whedon, or whatever, which I could respect, but you have a senseless vendetta against it. You constantly bring up your ire with it, particularly out of the blue in unrelated threads. The essence of trolling.<p>I happen to enjoy Star Wars, Trek, Firefly, etc. equally, and I accept that they all have their flaws. The best thing about all of these separate fictional universes is how much they differ from one another. It would be dull if there were only one flavor at the ice cream shop.

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 5:25 a.m. CST

    I'd easily agree that Sawyer...

    by LlGHTST0RMER a better-developed character than Han Solo as well, especially given their similar character arcs. They more or less go through the same process (from selfishness to selflessness,) but, as Redux pointed out, there's a lot more time for nuanced changes to a character in a tv series rather than a trilogy of movies. Still, Han seemed to take his steps in considerable leaps - coming back to help Luke at the Death Star, sacrificing himself in Bespin and volunteering to lead the squad on Endor. Captain Mal had more camera time to show his character's progress, and Sawyer is still going through his. They show their character by their actions and their changes in much more gradual steps.

  • Oct. 29, 2009, 5:34 a.m. CST

    There is no need for a "which character is better"

    by Dingbatty

    debate, as well. Whedon stated on the Firefly commentary that Mal (and Firefly/Serenity as a whole) is based upon/is an homage to Han Solo.