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‘I Think You Know This Is The Way This Has To Be!!’ Sunday Brings MAD MEN 3.9!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
It looks like Peggy Olson is getting a shot at Hilton after all!
Last week no Peggy, no Roger Sterling, no Lane Pryce, no Duck Phillips. Pete Campbell cheated on the girl from “Community” with a busty German au pair and Betty seemed to decide she’d rather bone husband Don Draper in Rome than Nelson Rockefeller’s buddy in Ossining. Also, Joan Holloway is working retail!
Tonight’s installment skips from last week’s August-set adventures to Halloween 1963. Dallas’ Texas School Book Depository hired Lee Harvey Oswald two weeks ago.
The 14-story Dallas Hilton was the first new hotel Conrad Hilton ever built and the first to bear his name.
Tonight and beyond:
3.9 "Wee Small Hours"
Don and Sal have trouble giving the clients what they want. Betty hosts a fundraiser.
3.10 "The Color Blue"
The firm celebrates a milestone. Peggy and Paul compete on an account.
3.11 "The Gypsy and the Hobo"
A former client returns; Betty goes on a trip with the kids; and Joan and Greg plan for their future.
3.12 "The Grown-Ups"
Don meets with a candidate; Peggy second guesses her taste in men; Pete makes a big decision.
3.13 "Shut the Door and Have a Seat"
Don has a meeting with Connie; Betty gets some advice; Pete talks to his clients.
10 p.m. Sunday. AMC.
Follow Herc on Twitter!!
Next Month!!
Kubrick’s
Masterpiece!!
$8.99 Blu-ray!!
Don and Sal have trouble giving the clients what they want. Betty hosts a fundraiser.
The firm celebrates a milestone. Peggy and Paul compete on an account.
A former client returns; Betty goes on a trip with the kids; and Joan and Greg plan for their future.
Don meets with a candidate; Peggy second guesses her taste in men; Pete makes a big decision.
Don has a meeting with Connie; Betty gets some advice; Pete talks to his clients.
Next Month!!
Kubrick’s
Masterpiece!!
$8.99 Blu-ray!!
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I love Mad Men!
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Great, great season so far. Does anyone else just grin like an idiot throughout the entire show?
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This has been MAD MEN's most uneven season by far--alternating classics with middling trifles. More good than bad certainly (and some downright great) but a little disappointing nonetheless...
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I think I'm still slightly in shock over the lawn mower incident...
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Hmmm, she won an Emmy for co-writing last season's finale "Meditations in an Emergency" but now Matt Weiner has kicked her to the curb. The only episode she has solo writing credit for is this season's "The Fog", which was another miserable episode. I guess Matt promoted her too quickly (she started as his personal assistant). Hopefully this is a good thing for the show...
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ahhh, last week was good. that scene where they pretended to be strangers was so sad and subtle; they still have no idea who each other really is, or who they themselves are. and have no interest in finding out. or maybe they are just too afraid to. either way great episode, great show, let's hope it finishes strong instead of with betty fucking an actual stranger and then telling don she's pregnant.
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to compare it to Mad Men is bizarre. I can't think of two more different shows, two shows with such different goals. Really, the phrase "apples and oranges" was invented for this. That being said, Mad Men is better ; )
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was she outright fired, or just a victim of cutbacks?
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that AICN will cover this crap (yes, it is crap. I've tried, for three straight years, to understand the hype. I can't. Guys smoke a lot, have a lot of sex, some of it with guys, and then they talk about advertising for about 30 seconds an episode. SHIT.) but refuses to cover amazing genre shows like CHUCK and SUPERNATURAL? AMC's budget must be bigger than I thought.
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That's why you don't understand. Because you see shows only for what they are on the shallowest level. You like Chuck because its about a nerd who gets to be a spy, and you think that is cool, so you watch it. If you've watched episodes of Mad Men, and you are dumb, you might think it is about guys smoking, and having sex, and talking about an ad. Clearly you lack the ability to discern the subtleties and nuances that story and genuine moments of character honesty that makes Mad Men, without question, the best show on television right now. If you think it's because of the budget, you're incredibly silly. But then again, you're one of these people who come on other talkbacks, continuously, to cry about Supernatural, whenever clearly almost everyone has watched at least an episode of that, and realized how fucking crappy it is. Learn to appreciate art as entertainment, instead of entertainment for entertainments sake.
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Well maybe when Don told Peggy that she had just recently been his assistant and to stop asking for things that was meant as a hint for Kater. ;)
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Brabon, I didn't hear of anyone else being let go so I think she just got fired...
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I've watched several episodes, but I fail to see what's so great about it. Other then that knock out red head of course.
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youre wrong mad men is great but its no breaking bad there hasnt been a better anti-hero than walter
white since vic mackey or tony soprano -
Mad Men IS a better show than Supernatural (thanks a lot, Daniel, you're exactly why it's hard to take us fans seriously) but Crow, fuck you and your fat, stupid, puffy red face. How is AICN a center for art over geeky entertainment, you spittle-covered snob? I don't see why it can't cover both.
I do think it's a little interesting that Mad Men's new executive story editor this year, Catherine Humphris, only has one other credit, which is writing for Supernatural. That's more "apples and oranges" than Breaking Bad and Mad Men. I don't follow behind-the-scenes moving and shaking, so I'm not sure how her getting that job was possible. Good for her, though.
Betty in Rome: I still can't figure out how a goofy looking beehive looked so elegant on her. -
...starting from the beginning? It's the kind of show where that is 100% necessary.
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I watch both and like both a hell of a lot. For me SN edges out MAD men but they are both top notch and I thing both are art just diffrent types of art. The other great show nobody watches is Friday Night Lights. AICN SHOULD cover that more considering its filmed in Austin and its an excellent show. One of the few on NBC.
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...are the best parts of the show IMHO. MAD MEN does that stuff better than anything else on television and even in most movies.
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I can do bad all by meself. http://sickpicks.blogspot.com/
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For one point he should be, at a minimum, shouting in the scene. For two he should be red in the face and spitting a little. In actuality, he just sounds a little annoyed and is making the patented Don Draper Constipation Face.
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because to quote the great cross-dressing Christian man "I can do bad all by myself"
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Arent't you the dude who asked me how he could catch up on Supernatural, what eps he could skip, and I laboriously typed out a 4-season arc listing of all the "must-see" eps for you... and now you're telling me you've only watched one? Do I have a right to be pissed or was that someone else I'm thinking of...
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If you compare it to Chuck and Supernatural, fine, its not your cup of tea. But to call it CRAP, is just a sign of ignorance. I actually get more viewing pleasure from Lost, Breaking Bad, Its Always Sunny, to name a few. But I appreciate what Mad Men is accomplishing/has accomplished, and enjoy it for its excellent writing and acting.
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is one of the best shows on tv right now even though this may be
the last season ive enjoyed watch
ing all five saesons -
So don't bemad at me for that. Because I would never ask for that. I did say once I would watch an episode or two, and I did, and...well. That's all. I'm sorry but you are thinking of some other jerk. Sorry if I offended people with my big, red puffy face. My bad.
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"Pete talks to his clients." Shit. I'm on the edge of my seat right now!
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Are what the show is all about. That's the problem. I tried to give this thing a chance I really did - but ultimately when I saw how well directed, lit, and acted it was it just pissed me off even more because I feel it's a buttload of nice art wasted on a damn soap opera. It's like trying to watch certain movies people tell me are "great" - no matter how well they make a movie like "Mean Girls" or "Bring It On" it is fundamentally against my very nature to ever want to sit through something like that.
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Now here's a guy that understands the relative nature of experience and the asshole-like ubiquity of opinions. Well said, old chap.
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People need to stop posting this completely useless comment. There's always at least five, every week. Can we just have a dedicated TB for everyone who feels compelled to tell the world of their valiant failure to enjoy a TV show? Because, guess what, guys? NO-ONE who is a fan of the show gives a flying fig.
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While I generally agree with your thought, the point of a TalkBack is to express your opinion about a TV show, movie, funnybook whatever even if the opinion is redundant and sometimes down right dopey. I'm hoping we get some more Don Vito Cooperleone this week. I'm really enjoying what they are doing with old Bert this season.
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are purposely simple, I think. Most show's descriptions give away too much. When we read the phrase "Pete talks to his clients", we can imply that means, Pete talks to his clients and an unexpected problem arises, or something.
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I need to sit down and re-watch this season while its still on demand. So many moments that I have just loved. It took The Sopranos 3 seasons to really become the show that everyone recognizes, in tone and the way there characters behave in their world. I can see Mad Men hitting that stride right now, it knows what it is and it just keeps on delivering every episode. Its the best show on tv since the The Wire said farewell.
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Different shows are for different tastes and demographics. As to Supernatural, I'd like to quote Elaine and George. "You know, just watching Supernatural doesn't automatically make you a teenage girl." "It doesn't help!"
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Sure but there's really no discussion to be had about people just "not getting it" or whatever. It leads nowhere. It's like watching a basketball game with someone with no interest or understanding of the game.
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"Too slow." "Nothing ever happens." I love that people seem to believe this crap! It gets all the accolades and has a devoted, intelligent viewership. MAD MEN does not suffer fools lightly - go watch FlashForward instead. MAD MEN is only for the cool kids. Deal with it. Rock n' roll.
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I watch it on iTunes without commercials, but each episode I watch actually feels like a complete movie at only 45 minutes. I don't know why that is, but somehow they cram so much into each episode but it never feels cluttered or like there's too much going on.
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I never miss the show when it airs now, but I'm just not feeling it this season. I really enjoyed the first season, and the second season wasn't far behind the first. But this season doesn't seem to have a point.
My main gripe is with Betty as I'm not a fan of January Jones' acting most of the time. She looks perfect for the part but she's very uncharismatic.
Anyway, now that we know who Don is and why he is that person, I don't really find myself caring about him. Actually, I don't find myself caring about any of the characters anymore.
Eh, I'll be watching tonight regardless. But this season has been pretty boring compared to last seasons Breaking Bad. -
I think they should go one step further: "Don smokes. Peter drinks. Betty nags."
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Every Sunday I wait with great anticipation for each new episode. I usually watch it twice, as AMC always airs an encore presentation. I have to admit that the focus on Don's family this season is very different from the first 2, but I also feel that each season takes a unique look at all of the characters lives, how they progress and how society bends that progression. Next season Don and Betty's marriage may be back on the rocks. And it's possible that it might not be Don's fault for once. Don seems to be settling into domestication. He signed a contract with his company, and even appears to be showing some(and I stress SOME) restraint when it comes to his adulterous nature. At the same time, Betty is becoming less dependent on him.
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wheres ur post for the dexter talk
back? ive waited all week for it -
As much as I loved 90% of this show, it is becoming so predictable in terms of plotting that I wonder if its even worth it to keep watching.
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"Show slow. Care-ic-turs bworing. Bright colors! Diffurent time place. Where Jack Bauer?? Where Vic Mackey??? Boom! Bang!! Dull colors mean more real. I Jack Bauer! I Vic Mackey!! I bad-ass!!! Don gay."
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Well maybe some did somewhere but it was very rare for guys and virtually unheard of for women.
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Na, I disagree. This show isn't LOST. The story lines are not that complicated. I'm not saying it's a bad show. I just think it's a bit over rated.
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The teacher character seems pretty hep and up to date with things.
From Wikipedia "University of Oregon track coach Bill Bowerman, after jogging with Lydiard in New Zealand, brought the concept of jogging as exercise to the United States in 1962"
So the timing would be right. -
I enjoy seeing how much the world has changed in 50 years. It is also a good reminder that things usually change for a reason.
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Oct 11, 2009 11:33:31 PM CDT
Yes, Crow3711. I am retarded, in fact.
by danielplainviewonvacationinboston
Which is why I go by the name of a character from There Will Be Blood. Because that was obviously shallow. The show has nuances, yes. It has story, yes. It means NOTHING, though.
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Oct 11, 2009 11:35:28 PM CDT
Did I at some point compare Mad Men
by danielplainviewonvacationinboston
with Supernatural? I must have missed that. I merely pointed out that it is a GENRE show, which is something AICN used to care about. Supernatural is my favorite genre show. . . but it sure as hell isn't "The Wire" or "The Shield." Maybe I'm not the retarded one, here.
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Did anyone else feel really sorry for Sal this week. I think of all that happened in the episode that is what floored me and he is still hiding behind a lie by not telling his wife. Poor Sal, I hope things get better. Also does anyone else think Don or Sterling may get the boot by the time the season ends? That contract he signed has to be coming up in spades pretty soon.
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there were so many flashes of bert's speech to don in don's firing of sal. in spirit at least. hate to say it, but sal looks to be down in the dumps for the rest of the season, possibly decade.
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he can't get a nut off to save his life. Poor blue balled sumbitch cock blocked at every turn. Then he gets pimped by The Draper. Shit does indeed run down hill.
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If you don't see that, the problem is you. End thread.
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MLK Jr's "I have a dream" speech was reported on the radio. He gave the speech on August 23rd. The newspaper Betty was reading mentions Aug. 25 at the start of the article on Rockefeller. We are still in August in this episode.
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Really great stuff by him in this episode. That scene with Sal was devastating.
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I'm wondering if Sal's life is somehow a creative outlet for Matt Weiner, who appears not only to be gay, but possibly (from his Emmy acceptance speeches and Mad Men DVD commentaries)a big ol' queen, yet is married. In this day and age, it seems impossible for a Hollywood homosexual to feel forced to still be in the closet. It seems impossible for someone who is such a talented writer to be so self-unaware? Or maybe there actually ARE effeminate gay men who aren't in denial...ya think?
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1. I seem to recall there being some question as to whether this would go down, but sure enough, Don really Battlestarred her Galactica, if you know what I mean (and I think you do). I now it's silly of me, but I was still (still!) hoping that she'd shut him down, or he'd suddenly, miraculously discover some middle-class moral fiber, but no. Y'know, if he wasn't married, he'd be James Bond, and I'd be all for it. But as it stands, I think this show is going to continuously disappoint me even when I should know better.
2. On that note, kudos to Betty. Her affair seems almost sweet in comparison. And her avoidance of anything tawdry, bless her heart.
3. Speaking of tawdry, it looks like Sal has discovered the downlow. He was probably at a rest stop, but there were enough gay biker stereotypes in the background, it looked like the patio at The Blue Iguana. And on the subject of stereotypes, I thought it was kind of funny that his TV commercial looked like something out of Tom of Finland. In any case, nice to see that Harry's heart is still in the right place, protecting his friend. Guy's a mensch. On the other hand, Don was a real dick. He's really racking up the dick points this season, especially at the expense of his underlings.
4. Conrad Hilton is not a lovable rich eccentric. He is not Scrooge McDuck. Conrad Hilton is an insatiable crank. Don was brought under his wing on a whim, and it seems as if he may be dropped at the same speed.
5. Ironic scene of "enlightened" liberals talking about racial justice with a black serveant in the background: Check!
6. Favorite line of the episode: "Are you pure? Dumb? ...?" -
7. At the end of the episode where Don comes home to a sleeping Betty, I thought he was going to wake her to have a heart to heart talk about what a crappy day he'd had. And then maybe she'd rebuff him. But alas, I was faked out: he only woke her to lie to her.
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No wonder the world is in such a crappy state.
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The episode covered a lot of (chronological) ground, from "I have a dream" to the Birmingham bombings (09/15/63, thanks wikipedia).
It's interesting that just when I think I have this show figured out, it surprises me again. I thought Don had successfully resisted Mademoiselle Teacher's lure; and I thought Betty disliked the kiss she got last episode. Season's end is approaching, and the shit is hitting the fan. Don now being something of a dick has more impact, I think, after the last couple of episodes of Don (or, possibly rather, Dick Whitman) showing us that he can actually be a decent human being.
Did anyone else think at first that "This is the way it has to be" actually meant "Why don't you pay Mr Lucky Strike a visit and make up?".
I also thought Hamm's expression during the MLK speech looked weird. Not disgusted, exactly, but hardly approving either. -
Oct 12, 2009 8:08:43 AM CDT
Is Sal fired from the firm or just the Lucky Strike account?
by goon bighead
Don is starting to shit where he eats, not good. I thought we were gonna see a Betty creampie when she went to that guy's office.
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I was watching with a group of friends, and the issue of Betty came up. A male friend of mine didn't understand why she would be unhappy, since she has everything she could ever want, but some of the rest of us reminded him that, yes, surely some people could be happy in Betty's situation, but that doesn't mean she is. As much as I find Betty to be frustrating to watch, I get it. She has everything and wants none of it - which is evidenced by her comment last week about being able to say that she went to Italy once. She has freedom issues. You see her trying to reach out to Henry, and needing something else, but then recoiling when the reality of it finally hits. It's sort of similar to the guy at the stables, whom she wanted, sort of, but ended up playing with more than anything. Betty's arc over these three seasons has been so full of repressed emotion. She bothers me (especially in her indifference to her children) but I do find her very interesting to watch. Peggy is still my favorite though.
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and got to feel sorry for Sal
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he got canned. Those were the orders given. IIHC, it was noted that Lucky Strike was a $25M account. It is a big sum now, but even bigger back then. The firm isn't going to put that into jeopardy.
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When you are in a gilded cage, outsiders see the gilded aspect but you see the cage. That's Betty's problem.
It's also worth remembering that in the pre-internet, and pre-cheap long distance phone calls (which only became cheap in the 1980s), you pretty much were limited to talking to the people directly around you, on a day to day basis. And if you're stuck in the house and your spouse is secretive and not communicative, that's very very isolating. -
Because as Don looks to be in his mid-30's, Betty looks to be at least 5-10 years younger. If this is the case, she is closer in age to Peggy than Don. And Peggy seems to be living the life that Betty wishes she had chosen. Peggy is riding the beginning wave of the feminist movement, single with a career. While Betty feels trapped in an upper middle class exsistence with her 2.5 children (whom she displays only contempt for, except for the newborn), and the physical comforts of a good income. And I know married couples of that time tended not to divorce "for the sake of the children", living in loveless unions. And this season seem to be about contrasts (last weeks ep. cutting between Don and Pete, the Brits coming in and running things) and this week Don and Betty, and their seperate ways of dealing with an attraction to another person. Their "flirtation" lasted several episodes culminating with Betty's refusal, and Don's submission. And I think that Don did submit to it, the guy can't help it. He's tried to be a better husband and father this season, but he can't deny this other need that he has.
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I'll bet Broadway would welcome a gay man with artistic talents with open arms. Set design perhaps?
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The episode states the date early on via a radio newscast. It is September 1963. The backdrop for the episode is the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, which occurred on September 15, 1963.
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And I didn't even watch it. But Bridgit Regan is gorgeous and just for her alone it gets 4 stars.
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by expanding on the "fund raiser" lie. Much to her dismay.Would love to hear the housekeeeper at home.."I'll tell you honey, those Drapers are crazy people..crazy I tell you."
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I have to give you credit, you are one persistent SOB. And I'd trade you Bridgit Regan for a January Jones or Christina Hendricks any day.
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Maybe it's just me but this is the first episode where I felt this show's vulnerability. It seemed like they could do no wrong but some things about this episode made me doubt. I too thought the Don/schoolteacher thing was a no-go, and thought the Betty/whatsisface thing was kaput too. I was disappointed that I was wrong. The Betty affair, in particular, seems meaningless. The Don affair redundant. Maybe it's because the objects of their respective affection are uninteresting. The dude from the governor's office (why can't I remember anyone's name on this fucking show?) had a great scene with Betty initially, but since then - meh. The schoolteacher seems like a riff on Don's boho girlfriend in season 1. I don't know, it just seems like Don's philandering has already been addressed and come full circle with Betty kicking him out of the house. I'm not saying they should stop having him do these things, but I just don't care that much. I will say that the scene with him going to the teacher's place was well-done. The stuff with Sal was heartbreaking really. That Lucky Strike guy is scum, and it's too bad Don is what he is. You could tell he was angry being put in that position - his own sensitivities made giving Sal the heave-ho a bit of a conflict for him, even though he had no doubts about what needed to be done. And Hilton is just an annoying twat at this point. It was kind of interesting at first, and the pitch scene was well-done, but I'm not that into watching things go round and round with that guy anymore. Anyway I think this show needs a good propulsive episode, and soon.
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When Bertram Cooper forced him to sign his contract, finding out that Hilton is a loon (repeating, "this is a good campaign", to no avail), Roger telling him he's "on notice"...he's losing the control that he held at the office, so to feed his ego, he turns to the arms of another woman, something he knows he can control. Not coincidental that he sleeps with the teacher at the end of this episode.
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Big, BIG mistake by Draper. One that will cause him no end of trouble: not only is she local, in a small town, but she is obviously a very needy and borderline crazy young chick prone to drama. He is gonna regret it big time.
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Did you notice the quizzical look he gave her during the eclipse. Fiester, I think you're right, not Fatal Attraction crazy, but not balanced.
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My lord, this show surpasses all others, with the quality of its acting alone.
This week I was stunned by the scene when Don comes home after the maid catches Betty w Rocky's man. The maid, with her back to us, turns slightly and tells us volumes about the tension in the room. Betty moves fast to successfully disarm it.
This show is filled with little moments like this, where actors communicate a depth of emotions with a subtlety that just doesnt exist on other programs.
Sopranos, Deadwood, all other modern dramas take second to this spectacle of what TV can be at its best. Always a Wow. -
About an intelligent show? I may cry.
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For the upper-middle and upper class, 1963 was a very good year, until Nov. 22nd. After that day, the USA was in mourning until Christmas, and on Dec. 26th Capitol Records releases the first Beatles single to radio stations. Ed Sullivan is Feb. 1964. That summer the LBJ/Goldwater election. By the sunmmer of 1965-Gulf of Tonkin, Voting Rights Act, Great Society. That's 2 years; 24 months.All the progress Don made with Betty died when he gave her that charm for her braclet. Don thinks living in that house in Ossining is the good life. It is, if you were a poor kid from the hillbilly backwoods of the Ohio Valley. To Betty, it's a step down. In her mind, they should be living in Connecticut with a full-time staff of 3.Hilton is a wack-job, who treats everyone like "the hired help." I got a kick of him talking about the notion of the USA: "We are a force of Good." Tell that to your skanky whore of a decendent (yes I said it!)------later-----m
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No way, dude. Behold the pure beauty of Bridget
Regan:
http://tinyurl.com/yl55tdu
As, compared to the above
average looks of:
Christina Hendricks
http://tinyurl.com/cywmb3
And, January Jones:
http://tinyurl.com/yjg5x6p
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ignore the in my tinyurls above.
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http://tinyurl.com/yj9bujf
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You should just ignore me like all the other Mad Mennonites.
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I honestly don't get why Roger put it on Don to "fix" the situation, either. He kind of put the blame for the thing on Don at the end when he put him on notice, even though Don had nothing to do with it. Harry was the one who screwed up by having Sal at the meeting.
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You're correct of course. My intel on this episode was poor. Lee Harvey Oswald was still in New Orleans as Don gave his new teacher friend a ride.
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I cannot believe he fired Sal, or that he said "You people," in disgust. Don has always been more perceptive and empathetic than that. It pisses me off that he would regress to such a bigoted and homophobic state after reacting with such sensitivity and graciousness on the stairwell and the plane immediately after having learned of Sal's homosexuality. I would think that if he were going to regress to that kind of state, he would have done it immediately, rather than months later. Of course, it could just be a bad choice on the part of the writers. The attitude certainly doesn't ring true to me. Shitting on Peggy a few episodes earlier didn't feel right either. Perhaps Don is just falling apart. Perhaps that's why he's regressed into the old pattern of sleeping around. Either way, the writers are going to have to climb out of this hole somehow.
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A few episodes ago, when the Sons started sponsoring the porn studio, in the beginning of the episode they showed a porno shoot set in an office with a 1960s décor. If you noticed the shot of the clap board in that episode, and the title of the porno running on the monitors in the next episode, you'll see that the porno is titled "Meek Men." I think it's hilarious that they show the porno caricature of Don Draper getting an anal rain dance (yeah, I had to look it up on the urban dictionary too).
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I think he's just generally pissed off and unsatisfied. He probably doesn't really want to be there, his trip to California demonstrated that and it's not as if he returned to his life with real enthusiasm. He's been bitchy before, too. I wasn't really sure what to make of his comment to Sal. It's not as if Don hasn't had inappropriate sex, and what he seemed perturbed about was the unrest being caused, not the homosexual aspect of it per se.
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...anymore than you or I are 'good'men or women. He's a man, and he has dimensions. I felt the show even adressed it's lack of absolutes when Hilton gave his little ditty about america being 'good', which I took to be crossing the blurry line between patriotism into arrogance and superiority, while also showing what a shallow man Hilton is. He told Don he's like a son to him. And Don appearedvery touched. Then I don't know what bothered me more about Don, the way he treated Sal ("you people") or they way he responded to Hiltons disappointment in him. Hamm makes it all very watchable, even his short scenes with Jones. Jones is one of the few flat players on this program, a fact that only comes into focus more clearly when you see other characters with lesser screen time share a room with her, such as her father, the housekeeper, even her daughter (who is far from great, but almost always interesting).
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I have seen that little look of crazy before and the teacher has got it in spades.. I hate to say this but I not only think Don's in big trouble but he and his family could even be in for a little danger..Remember she is also Sally's teacher..But I do think she is hot and yeah probably worth the risk..
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I felt put off by the way that Don treated Sal and I think there will be big Karma to pay for that
one indeed...Betty also pissed me off with the "Not ready for civil rights" bullshit...The maid that takes care of that family is a helluva actress by the way and does it all with ease.. -
Thunderbolt Ross: Actually, I think Don was disgusted by the homosexual aspect of it. The "You people," line was in direct response to Sal claiming modesty in turning down the inappropriate offer. The attitude is a reference to the classic bigoted "homosexual slut" stereotype. He's a fag, why should he care who, or how many people, he sleeps with? Worldofwarcraft: I agree, I don't think Don is necessarily a "good" person (Though I do lean that way, I understand it's not an absolute. In drama, I revel in shades of gray). The reason I object to Don's treatment of Sal and Peggy is that in both cases, he's doing so out of a prejudice that I don't think is accurate or justified in his case. The reason Don is such a great (m)ad man is because he's so preturnaturally perceptive to motivations that, for most people, are buried under multiple layers of subconscious. Don's strength as a character, and what makes me find him so sympathetic, is his ability to empathize with a diverse range of people on an incredibly deep level. His regression to a homophobic mindset in his treatment of Sal, and his regression to a misogynistic mindset in his treatment of Peggy shows an insensitivity that is belied by his proven and historical intuitiveness. Again though, perhaps he's just reacting this way callously and without thought (isn't that the very definition of bigotry though?) due to his own personal problems. He simply isn't taking the _time_ to empathize with them because he has bigger, and more personal, issues to deal with. I'm not sure if even that explanation is convincing to me though as he's shown empathy before when under great personal duress. After faking his own death and impersonating an officer (a very serious offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice) to get out of the Army, the first thing he does is he goes to his officer's widow and promises that he'll take care of her if she'd do him the favor of not exposing his charade. That seems like a very charitable (you could argue it's self-interested, although I didn't really get the impression that there was a definitive quid pro quo being offered) and sensitive action on his part. Surely the stress of that time outweighs the stress he's experiencing currently.
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I should have worked in a paragraph break in there somewhere. My apologies.
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American Exceptionalism, or any exceptionalism, is a double-edged sword. On one hand, the idea that your country is uniquely inspired and benevolent can simply be prettied-up jingoism; and worse, depending on you define what's exceptional, it's a rationalization for hegemony and other abuses. (See: Manifest Destiny.)
On the other hand, sometimes countries are exceptional. Sometimes their existence -- overall -- can be correctly identified as a positive force for the development of humankind.Moreover, I think exceptionalism can create a standard of idealism to maintain or aspire to. The standard is subjective, of course; my idea of exceptionalism may not be the same as Connie's Christian-soaked version. But overall, I think it's a noble and worthy sentiment, fueling pride (Barack Obama) or shame (Abu Graib) when appropriate.
So Connie's views on politics is not the crazy. His thoughts on the moon aren't the crazy either. (Eccentric, pie-in-the-sky, maybe, but not crazy.)
The crazy is that he'll never be satisfied with whatever Don comes up with. The crazy is that he takes the time to build an intimate, familial relationship with Don, only to completely shit on that relationship like a child frustrated with a toy. That's a little deranged.
My predictive abilities with this show are *godawful*, but I think that by the end of the season, Hilton will pull their account from Sterling-Cooper. -
His earlier bouts of impatience with Peggy came from him getting sick of her thinking he's some God who will mentor her and help her. But he's got his own problems. His annoyed reaction to Peggy and the young guys' presentations is part of this, too. Though I think Peggy's window concept was about as sucky as Don suggested.As for his treatment of Sal, I think his sensitive treatment of the issue on the plane was his way of figuring Sal would keep it to himself and be discrete about his personal life. Then it spills over to the office, and Don figures Sal's just not keeping things quiet the way Don can get away with things. It's like Don's disgust at Roger. Part of it is the fact that Roger does what he wants and doesn't care about the consequences. Don does what he wants, manages to keep things quiet, then is miserable afterward and filled with guilt. He thinks Sal's doing what he wants without a care in the world like Roger.
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was not uncommon with some of the elitist wealthier northern white folks that didn't really grasp how bad it was for blacks. The reaction that all the violence and upheaval was a sign that it just wasn't time for equal rights wasn't out of the ordinary. Though it was insensitive and close-minded and ignorant. Especially after death of the little girls in what I believe was a church bombing.
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The U.S. has the highest military budget in the world (49% of all military expenditures, we spend nearly as much as every other nation on the planet combined). We have the highest military exports of any nation on the planet (36% of weapon sales worldwide). The US has the highest prison population on the planet (nearly 1% of total population, and that's by a factor of six in the last thirty years, under half a million in the early 80's, now nearly 3 million...our incarceration rate is more than 1% among adults only). The United States has the highest Gini Coefficient amongst first-world industrialized nations. Our nearby competition for our rank in the Gini index are some of the worst hellholes in South America and Africa. We're the last and only first-world industrialized nation to not have some form of universal health care. We have the highest infant mortality rate of any first-world industrialized nation. We're number one, alright. Unfortunately it's in a whole lot of statistics we really shouldn't be proud of. Go USA! I bet we can't go more than five posts without someone accusing me of being an anti-American eurofag who should STFU and GTFO of Amurka if I don't like it.
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Oct 12, 2009 8:16:15 PM CDT
I cannot decide if the last two episodes were boring, or . . .
by royston lodge
. . . if seeing a guy lose his foot to a riding mower in the middle of an advertising agency has unacceptably raised my expectations.
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Where is our Dexter TB? I need to express how fucking awesome it was to see the ridiculously hot reporter in just some skimpy panties!
Loving the humour from Dexters new suburbanite existence too. I think its tougher territory taking the show in this direction rather than just killing off Rita. -
I was at first taken aback by Don's comment to Sal, but my friend Edward pointed out that it was most likely intended differently. When you take into account the lack of sleep Don has endured recently, and the lengths he is going to for Hilton, he is probably referring to the general staff of Sterling Cooper when he says, "You people." As in, "You people don't know what sacrifice and pleasing the customer really means. Why is no one else seeing beyond their own needs for once." Don has beens stretched to the breaking point, and so it fits that he goes after schoolteacher. Similarly to Betty, he seeks out a release of some kind because he has no one to confide in and no one who can understand the trials of man in his singular position.
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Personally, I preferred seeing her (Courtney Ford's) magnificent breasts. Seriously, look at them: http://www.imagefap.com/image.php?id=1475602657&pgid=&gid=1911570&page=0 Beautiful, aren't they? Sorry for the image host. I recommend using Firefox + AdBlock Plus + NoScript unless you enjoy a non-Cameronesque eye fucking.
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Yeah, what's your problem not fucking some random guy!? Why are you being so stuck up about putting out for your job? I mean, I regularly let clients fuck me, and I'd have no problem offering up one of the chicks in the steno-pool, so what's your problem, faggot? I'm sorry, there is NO WAY that "You people," coming at that moment in the conversation and said in that way, was in any way possibly an innocent remark. There's no way you can convince me of that. It was a purely bigoted and homophobic remark.
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Especially what he witness in the hotel? Reverse the situation and ask yourself would you believe Don if he said he wasn't fucking anyone?And why should Don have to be fine with Sal homesexuality? This PC stuff is BS!!!
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By no means are you an anti-American eurofag. At least I don't think so. You're just a talkbacker who decided to address what was clearly an abstract point with select statistics and dispersion equations that back your worldview. Moreover, you were condescendingly sarcastic and preemptively insulting about it. Again, not anti-American eurofaggy. Just impolite and dicky.
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Don: Sal, something must have happened. I can't help you unless you tell me.
Sal: We had a misunderstanding.
Don: Jesus. I'm not going to ask again.
Sal (confidingly): He was drunk. And he cornered me in the editing room.
Don: Cornered you?
Sal: Yes. And I backed him off, I told him I was married and he was embarrassed and he left.
Don (disapprovingly): You must have been really shocked.
Sal: I was. Believe me. (Sal seems relieved here, like he's _expecting_ Don to show the same understanding that he did earlier)
Don (dubiously): But nothing happened. Because nothing could have happened. Because you're married.
Sal: Don, I swear on my mother's life.
Don: You sure you want to do that?
Don (incredulously): Who do you think you're talking to? (We both know you're a whore.)
Sal: I guess I was just supposed to do whatever he wanted? What if it was some girl?
Don: That would depend on what kind of girl it was, and what I knew about her. (He's clearly insinuating that gay people are promiscuous, and since Sal is gay, he must be promiscuous. QED.)
Sal (disapprovingly): You people.
Sal (crushed): I didn't do anything but turn him down.
Sal (indignantly): He's a bully.
Don (candidly): Lucky Strike can shut off our lights. I think you know that this is the way this has to be. (You have to be fired because you resisted an improper sexual advance from a client who pays us a lot of money.)
Don: You'll do fine. (And has the temerity to offer his hand to Sal. Very low blow, Don. Railroad Sal, one of the nicest guys on the show, and then act magnanimous.) I'm sorry. When you watch the entire scene, Don's meaning is clear in context. This is nothing but pure unadulterated homophobic bigotry.
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Do you dispute any of the statistics I cited? Moreover, do you have any statistics of your own that could possibly justify positive claims of American Exceptionalism? I also dispute that I was rude in predicting my denunciation. I've received that very response here before. I might even be able to find it for you. Hollywood: Thanks for setting the human race back a decade.
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Oct 12, 2009 9:27:44 PM CDT
Reading that myself, there's also a bit of misogyny there too.
by rhuragh
Don: That would depend on what kind of girl it was, and what I knew about her. (He's clearly insinuating that gay people are promiscuous, and since Sal is gay, he must be promiscuous. QED.) This comes from the misogynistic attitude that promiscuous girls who get raped are A) just asking for it, and B) aren't even really getting raped since they have sex with many partners anyway. After all, what's one more to add to the list? Absolutely disgusting attitude. The more I think about this, the more I become ashamed for Don.
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As a homosexual male, I am trying to see this show at all its levels, which are many. I believe that the "you people" comment was totally meant to register as homophobic to we, the audience, but my point was to look at Don and the situation a little more closely. Your comment following mine was crass and disgusting Rhuragh, but I was trying to communicate that in Don's mind perhaps he does think that Sal fools around on his wife since everyone male seems to at one time or another in this world, and that rather than taking a "holier than thou" attitude with the client, Sal could have been a bit more tactful. Just like how Harry Crane was less than tactful in his "wish really hard and hope it goes away" attitude. Don's world is crumbling around him, and he probably would think at that moment that Sal could have been more diplomatic in some way rather than jeopardize a $25 million contract. In that moment he may not really have expected Sal to have sex with the guy, but in a moment of pure frustration, I'm sure he would be to bristle at Sal's inability to handle the situation better. My reaction was yours originally, particularly as a gay man, but as I said, my friend suggested a different point of view, which I thought had some merit. The truth might also be a union of the two, maybe I am giving Don too much credit, but I don't think labeling it as pure homophobia is correct. You can choose to agree or disagree, but again, please... you need to calm down and stop attacking people who want to discuss this show and its content in a mature manner.
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If Don holds by his logic, then he wouldn't mind offering Peggy up to clients against her will, after all, she's had a baby without being married, ergo, she's promiscuous, and you can't rape a promiscuous girl. Fortunately, since Don is usually a perceptive and kind person, we know, rather, we hope, he wouldn't have that kind of reaction. So, what's his problem with Sal?
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If bigotry isn't a reasonable justification to get pissed off, what, pray tell, is a reasonable justification?
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I don't think you did. I think you are an egomaniacal blowhard who has no desire to listen to others points of view. And your last post makes no sense in the context of Mad Men, since they portray bigotry all the time for the sake of authenticity. Not that I think Don Draper is a bigot - he's far too complex to be that - but you can actually take a look at what I wrote if you really care.
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I'm sure it wouldn't take too long to find indices that the Gino Coefficient does not take into account, or other metrics that measure standard of living, quality of life, etc. Or I could talk about how even at first blush, the analysis is incredibly reductionist. Then the next thing you know, we're in a tit-for-tat narrow political argument in a forum that was intended for the discussion of a TV show. And that's douchebaggy.
This also puts aside the fact that American Exceptionalism is not predicated on statistical metrics of the moment, or even necessarily statistical metrics at all, but rather on history, culture, and economics, and how, in concert, these elements have produced something unique and net beneficial.
And even that is straying from the (ignored) issue of my initial post, which is that Hilton's politics might not be one's cup of tea, but they're not deviant. Perhaps symbolic of American hubris, sure; maybe misguided within the worldview of the creators of the show, but no more loopy than the patriotism and idealism expressed by any US president.
So no, no political hamster wheel for this talkback, at least from me. But thanks for being "that guy." Again, not the anti-American malcontent, but the guy who can't have a conversation that brushes past politics without taking it as an opportunity to work through his agenda and be a dick about it. -
Don's reaction goes back to that talk on the plane. The you people remark was horrible, but not too much of a shocker. It's homophobia, but also his irritation at the lack of discretion.
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Thanks! That's the kind of reasoned response I was hoping for! Wonderful, you _can_ argue against Gini! (Here's a freebie, Hong Kong ranks near us in the index, but Hong Kong also ranks towards the top of the lists for most disposable income and average standard of living.) Yes, Gini has its problems, but over-all, when it ranks Europe and the rest of the modern world at the top of the list, and then a whole bunch of third-world nations with the US keeping them company, it might just have something useful to say. As far as your latter two paragraphs go, I'll agree with you completely. Yes, Hilton's attitude of American Exceptionalism is (sadly) a mainstream viewpoint in American society. And yes, I can be a dick at times. But so are you. Note that you didn't post this kind of reasoned response first, the first thing YOU did was accuse me of cherry-picking statistics. You can rise above the fray, or you can take pot-shots and then _pretend_ to rise above the fray. You can't do both.
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Thanks for the caricature. I spend _hours_ every day on line reading diverse viewpoints. Hell, I'm fucking talking to you right now. I just don't find your argument to be credible in the slightest. My argument, by the way, isn't that I'm pissed that they're showing bigotry on Mad Men, it's that they're using a character who has proven in the past to not be susceptible to that sort of (lack of) reasoning.
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Oct 12, 2009 10:29:50 PM CDT
Writers wanted to take away the goodwill towards Don
by cylon_conspiracy
Everyone was talking about how easy-going Don was about seeing Sal with that guy in the hotel room "limit your exposure", and in that episode Sal was relieved he still had a job. So in this episode, Sal feels comfortable enough that Don can be trusted so he just assumes Don will take his side. The "you people" line was meant to seriously piss off all the people who were saying "how cool that Don isn't as homophobic as everyone else in the early 60s". They really like messing with your expectations of the characters. Something really crappy is going to happen to Don and we're going to ask ourselves if he deserves it or not.
I'm tired of Betty's character. I like the actress I just don't like where they are taking her. I liked her better when she was the obedient housewife. She smiled all the time and January Jones is even hotter when smiling. But now all she does is sit around and brood all day. Seems that she's unhappy, and that the marriage is ending. I get it already. Now hook her up with Pete to up the drama.
I agree with what has been said about the teacher... it's fatal attraction time. Each affair Don has had he's managed to get away without much damage. They are clean breaks. But this teacher chick, she basically told him how it's going to get messed up. "I was your daughter's teacher, I see your wife in the supermarket"... seems to me she's going to get way too close for comfort in Don's family life and like Glenn Close before her "Will Not Be Ignored". To her credit, she's kept Don at a distance. He basically told her "I don't give a fuck about my family, doesn't that mean anything to someone like you?" If it ends, it's not going to end pretty, or quietly.
But for me the main feeling of this episode is I feel sorry for Sal, and think Don isn't as progressive as they led us to believe. Whoever mentioned that Sal might be successful on Broadway, I agree that there is a big arts community in New York that he could be a major figure in... his story doesn't actually have to end tragically.
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This is me, rising above the fray. Over and out.
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. . . Don would have acted exactly the same way.
Except that he wouldn't have offered a handshake...
And he wouldn't have said, "you'll be fine'...
And he wouldn't have felt bad about it. -
I'm convinced that Sterling Cooper as set up in the show is a firm on the decline. Anybody who gets kicked out is lucky.
As evidence, remember that Duck said that Grey's offices are so shitty that they have to hold meetings in hotel rooms. Grey is a real advertising agency, which today has offices all over the World. In the 60s it was on an upward trajectory, anchored by its biggest client - Proctor & Gamble.
So, the way the staff at Sterling Cooper seem to look down their noses at Grey tells me that Sterling Cooper is going to bleed clients, money and staff for the rest of the series.
Sal will be fine. -
. . . unless "progressive" is a synonym for "hedonistic nihilist".
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Yikes. I'm not sure which scenario is worse.
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After being at the firm for so long, he just automatically gets fired without any chance to defend himself. Don asks him what happened but it didn't matter, he was already going to get fired. Way to stick up for your people Don.
Sal expected Don to freak out when he caught him with the other guy. He didn't seem to care. By the show's standards, that's progressive. -
. . . for the little fact that she has a standing offer at Grey.
If she didn't have Duck trying to recruit her, and she got fired from S-C, there's no way she would get another job in advertising. She would be blackballed. The other agencies would use her as a cautionary example and say things like, "there goes the secretary that Don Draper took a chance on. He was probably fucking her. It's no surprise she went fubar. Better make sure that WE never promote a secretary like that!"
Sal, on the other hand has a positive track record, a portfolio of past work, and now a reel of his commercials. He still has a future in the business. -
He's given several indications of this in the course of the show. His initial (and until recently) treatment of Peggy. Promoting her to Creative. Taking care of her after her pregnancy (done without any outward sign that he was passing judgment of any kind). His discretion and sensitivity displayed to Sal immediately after the fire-escape incident. His relationship with the bohemian woman in the first season (and very accepting and non-confrontational response to the one guy's initial hostility). He was so understanding that when he finally broke things off to salvage his marriage, he ended up giving her a large bonus cheque he'd just earned from Sterling Cooper (a cheque that was, IIRC, equivalent to about a year's salary in the 1960s), even though he didn't owe her a thing. Actually, I just thought of something as I was coming up with examples for labeling Don as progressive. He _has_ shown bigotry in the past. In the first season he showed a very antisemitic attitude towards Rachel Mencken (Maggie Siff's character). It was only after being confronted with his bigotry that he opened his mind to her point of view and eschewed the stereotypes. There _is_ precedent for his behavior in this episode. Hrm.
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who is the victim of sexual harassment. Sal would be able to retire off that incident today.
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I see that as Don not giving a shit about other people do unless it has an effect on his life/career. Freaking out on the business trip wouldn't have provided Don with any benefit. On the contrary, he would have lost a talented, experienced art director.
The second that someone becomes a liability however (for ANY reason, professional or personal), they are eliminated.
That ain't "progressive". It MIGHT qualify as "libertarian", but in Don's case I'll settle for "nihilistic". -
Yeah, it's (relatively) easy to hide the fact that you're gay. Not so easy to hide the fact that you're a woman. Peggy would have been screwed worse. I was really wondering which one was worse for my interpretation of Don's character though. Which attitude would make me dislike him more. Which is worse, homophobia or misogyny? Something else just occurred to me. I'm criticizing Don for having the temerity to suggest that others have sex with clients against their will just to keep the client happy. Oddly enough, he's done pretty much exactly that with Rachel Mencken. There wasn't a specific quid pro quo involved, but he was having sex with a client, and it undoubtedly strengthened the relationship between the two companies while it lasted (though, as I recall, the business relationship ended concomitant with the personal relationship).
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You can at least compare his actions to the scene (can't remember which episode) where the other foreign art guy came out and all the guys were saying really sad things about gays right in front of Sal. I assume the writers deliberately throw in a bit of contrast here and there. At the very least with the episode where he discovered Sal with the other guy, they were trying to get across to the audience that Don is not a bigot. Which is the reason they made that "you people" comment seem so harsh, it was meant to turn that former idea that Don wasn't a bigot, on its head.
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Oct 13, 2009 12:08:54 AM CDT
Rhuragh: I really think you give Draper too much credit.
by royston lodge
Methinks he bought off the bohemian because he wanted to make sure she didn't ring his doorbell one day and start causing trouble.
Methinks he didn't set aside stereotypes with Mencken. He just wanted to fuck her. And since he's a charming muthafucka who happens to working in freakin' advertising, he knew JUST what buttons to push with her to get her in the sack.
Other characters actually talk about these sorts of social/moral issues. They chat about things like the civil rights movement, the South, politics, etc. Those characters qualify as "progressive".
Don's just looking out for number one. Maybe he doesn't care if you're black, white, straight, gay, purple, plaid, whatever, but only for as long as you can provide a benefit, and you never ever become a liability.
If he was "progressive", he would care about people's right to be who they are, and he would back them up when they get pushed into a corner. He doesn't do that. He doesn't care. He's a nihilist. -
Oct 13, 2009 12:12:47 AM CDT
Rhuragh: I don't think he'd have to hide that he's gay...
by royston lodge
...necessarily.
Remember, Sterling Cooper does have an openly gay person on staff, the European artist. Other agencies with a better grasp of the zeitgeist probably would have no problem hiring a gay man.
Sal wasn't fired because he's gay. He was fired because he wouldn't put out for a client. -
... and Sterling doesn't know Sal is gay, as far as we know. He fired Sal because a client wanted it. End of story. Sterling didn't even care why. Sal wasn't fired because he's gay.
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I think you might be right, and the possibility really scares me. That's veering Don into sociopath territory. He's great at discerning what makes people tick, consciously and subconsciously, and excellent at manipulating them because of it. The problem is, he just doesn't give a shit about them, and is only doing it so he can manipulate them for his own advantage. If that's the case, this turns the show upside down. Has Don done anything that's completely selfless? He's taken action to help others before (though in many cases you could argue that he gained valuable information that could be used for blackmail). He's helped others who would be in a position to blackmail him. Looks like I need to start watching the show over again from the beginning, as I can't think of any purely selfless acts on Don's part.
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Sal's just the latest in a line of people who get fucked over because they're no longer seen as an asset.
Freddy was finished because epilepsy would freak out the clients.
Guy was finished because he couldn't play golf with only one foot.
Sal was finished because he wasn't willing to keep the client happy.
Hey, it's nothing personal. It's just business. I'm sure you understand. I'll need your key to the office now. -
...my assumption is that Don could have over-ridden that decision, had he wanted to, given that Sal works for Creative, and Don _IS_ Creative. He chose not to, due to his homophobia, and thus, in my mind, is responsible for firing Sal.
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Oct 13, 2009 12:30:14 AM CDT
I still don't think he's QUITE at the level of psychopathy, yet.
by royston lodge
... Don Draper has been shown making genuine connections with other human beings, letting down his emotional guard, and he's felt like he's been fucked over every time. But he makes these connections with those who superior to him, namely Roger Sterling and Conrad Hilton.
Don seemed to believe that he and Roger had a genuine friendship, so when Roger pulled rank on him it felt like a major betrayal.
Don seemed sincere when he thanked Hilton for saying he was like a son. And then when Hilton shit in Don's cornflakes it felt like a major betrayal.
If Don truly suffered from psychopathy then he would never have allowed Roger or Hilton to get under his skin like that. Rather, he would have been playing them like he plays everybody else.
So no, Don still hasn't descended into psychopathy, yet.
But this latest incident with Hilton might indeed push him over the edge. -
...then Europe-boy would be out on his ass. Don's leitmotif isn't that he's prejudiced. It's that he's indiffert.
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... is the way he reacted when he had to sever the firm's relationship with Mohawk Airlines. He'd built a relationship with Mohawk's president and he thought the firm should have lived up to their commitments and showed their loyalty to a faithful client.
I guess that little incident taught him the lesson about loyalty that the firm needed him to learn, eh?
That, and the incident with his contract. The firm didn't show Don any loyalty.
I guess Don's finally been schooled on how little loyalty is valued at the firm of Sterling Cooper. -
Sociopaths only fake love for other people... they are unable to care for others for real. Don's not that bad. He's a guy with a lot of power, and a lot of baggage. It's just that his power and influence makes his baggage affect a lot of people. So far the worst thing he ever did on the show was disown his brother... but he even tried to fix that (then found out it was too late).
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. . . was wear plaid shorts.
That can never be forgiven. -
. . . the only people who CAN'T get jobs at other agencies are:
- Roger Sterling (cuz he's a partner)
- Burt Cooper (cuz he's a partner)
- Don Draper (cuz even if Cooper didn't rat him out as an imposter, Campbell still could). -
And maybe someday that will come and bite him. I'd like to see how he went from car salesman to ad agency superstar... there's got to be an interesting story there. I'd also like to see some scenes of how bad his childhood was... seems like they are teasing us with that.
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- Impersonating an officer.
- Fraud (As far as I can tell, there were no specific identity theft laws on the books in 1963, so fraud comes closest).
- Driving while intoxicated (illegal in New York since 1910).
- Possession of marijuana.
Am I forgetting any? -
You people are dumb for taking the bait. :)
He was clearly exasperated at how his staff was acting and how it was then reflecting on him.
During the past few episodes they all seem to be failing him in one way or another. Hence why he has been harsh on Peggy and some of the others. They simply arent bringing home the bacon.
Its telling in the line Don gives Peggy about not being able to do it all himself.
YOU PEOPLE are all the people that simply cant perform to the level that Don does.
He expects more from them, and they have been disappointing him.
The last straw was of course Hilton treating him like a son that had disappointed his father.
So of course Don then does the exact same thing to his "children" at the office.
This show is littered with microscopic clues presented by body or facial movements, quick seemingly non-important comments, and even scenery and music.
Failing to pay attention to these things really makes understanding the underbelly of what is really going on.
Don is a man of his age, yes... but he is also a pragmatist to the core.
While he may harbor a tacit personal prejudice against Blacks, Jews, and Gays... its not that big a deal to him.
They are simply "meh" to him.
The only way they could become important was if they somehow became part of his life in a meaningful way.
Sal is just a coworker, finding out he was gay was like finding out he like to snort cocaine or something.
Dons reaction is not of hate nor of appreciation... but of "dude, that shit aint right, but keep it to yourself and we cool".
Don doesnt want to know about it, doesnt want to talk about it, doesnt want to be involved, doesnt care, and certainly doesnt want it interfering with work.
But then it did.
Don sleeps with clients, does his amoral things here and there, does what he needs to do and doesnt get caught because he knows how to keep it all rolling smooth.
And when it doesnt, then that means that its his fault and he has to find a way to not let it affect his work. He fixes it somehow.
Sal did not fix it.
He obviously handled it the wrong way in the eyes of Don... because the client was offended.
And that was a client that you simply could not offend.
And thats why Sal had to go.
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I think Don was disappointed. He thought he'd detected some kind of kinship with Sal: "I have a horrible secret no-one can ever find out, and you have one, too. I'm married, so are you. Still, I like to bang some ladies on the side, and, well, apparently so do you, except with men. Whatever."
So when Sal was all sanctimonious, "of course I didn't sleep with him, I'm married," Don called bullshit. He's not saying all gay people are promiscuous, but he *knows* that Sal's been screwing around (well, he thinks he knows; we know it never got that far, but it would have if not for the fire alarm). He doesn't believe Sal is honest with him. That puts Sal back on the other side, on the side of "those people" who aren't like Don. And remember, Don *has* slept with clients before (or their wives), so maybe he doesn't think it's a big deal. It's just a part of the job, keeping the client happy. (Of course, in those cases, Don was in control, even with Bobbie, who goaded him into it; Sal was being bullied and has a sensitive personality to begin with. So sure, there's a lack of empathy there. But I doubt it had something to do with Sal's homosexuality. Just like that one SNL spot goes, he wants people to "be Don Draper." But they're not.)
And Ruragh, are you sure going to the real Don Draper's widow is the first thing Dick/Don did? As I recall it, she came to *him* after a long time of looking for him, and only then did he try to explain himself. -
she going to be in any more episodes this season?
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Oct 13, 2009 7:54:36 AM CDT
To Think "You People" Wasn't a Homophobic Comment Is Foolish
by crow3711
I'm sorry, but writers write what they put on the page INTENTIONALLY. Every single word. And they know what those words mean. To even suggest that Don, talking down to Sal, with an obvious look of disgust on his face was anything less than a jab at his homosexuality is retarded. The simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Look at how much BS Jardinier and DailySports have to write just to eplain that it WASNT homophobic. Makes no sense. He said that with intent. No, I don't think Don hates gay people or Sal, but I think in that moment, he was tired and annoyed and frustrated, and even though he had been extremely tolerant and understanding up to that point, to have the entire situation thrown in his face and dragged into his business is a totally different situation. "You people" was absolutely a remark about homosexuals. This is the 60's people. Even with Don being a freer and more forward thinking person, there are limits. Just accept the line for what it was. Nothing in a show is written that blatantly and for such intense effect for it to actually refer to his group of employees, and not Sal and other homosexuals. Just listen to what you are saying, it just doesnt make any sense. It was meant to shock us. The writers knew we would all be on here talking about it fervently, but I guarantee you they didn't expect us to take it is anything other that homophobic. It was a powerful moment. By saying it refers to anything else absolutely diminishes its meaning and impact, and what good is that?
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According to IMDB she is set to be seen in next weeks episode, "Wee Small Hours" It doesn't list anything after that, so either they don't know for sure if she is in those episodes, or she simply isnt featured for the rest of the season. She did just get married a few weeks ago, maybe they have her a lighter load and less episodes this season to allow her time to get her wedding in order and handle all that business? I dont know. I just hope Joan and Roger both make triumphant comebacks at some point.
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According to IMDB she is set to be seen in next weeks episode, "Wee Small Hours" It doesn't list anything after that, so either they don't know for sure if she is in those episodes, or she simply isnt featured for the rest of the season. She did just get married a few weeks ago, maybe they have her a lighter load and less episodes this season to allow her time to get her wedding in order and handle all that business? I dont know. I just hope Joan and Roger both make triumphant comebacks at some point.
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by the writers, and I'm sure if that's so, we'll see more of that sort soon. But it's not the only possible interpretation (which, you know, is not dependent on the artists' intentions). It's not like I sat for several hours pulling possible explanations out of my ass just to be contrary, or because I want to like Don, or whatever. What I wrote is what I thought when I watched the episode. That's not any more retarded than saying that Don and Joan must have had an affair previously, judging from their interaction in the hospital (an interpretation that was mentioned on this site, but which I don't agree with). People can see different actions by a character differently, you know. That's one of the reasons the series is art, and not just mindless entertainment.
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It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I thought he went to her in California. I'm rewatching the episode now, and you're right. She tracked Don down. It appears that yes, Don doesn't respond with sensitivity to someone else's view and experiences until he's managed to fuck things up for them himself. He fixes the situations out of guilt and fear of reprisal, not charity. My opinion of Don just sank quite a bit. :/
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But I didn't mean it like "you're retarded for thinking that" I just think that the simplest answer is probably the correct one, and Don, in a moment of frustration and anger, took a cheap shot at Sal because the situation was being rubbed in his face. I just think tolerance and acceptance are also two very different things. Don can tolerate a lot, but I don't think he accepts very many things or people for who they are.
Same goes for the Don and Joan in the hospital. Sure, you could make some vague argument Joan and Don may have shared something in the past, but IMO, its just not there. Filling in blanks that don't exist isn't really interpreting, its just putting yourself into the show and making your own judgements based on very little. I just think Don and Joan have a mutual, unspoken respect for one another. Don doesn't just tolerate Joan, I think he respects her, especially for her incredible restraint and ability to keep secrets. But I don't think that, in any way, does the show actually imply they had something. That's just people making things up, which is, imo, the equivalent of gossip. if they show wants us to know something, it will show us, or at least legitimately hint at it. -
Oct 13, 2009 9:44:15 AM CDT
I think you people just don't want to admit Don's a douche...
by royston lodge
...because you think he's hot.
;-) -
I would like to see Don receiving an anal rain dance.
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that means he would hate obama and his america sucks routine
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just say liberal. dont try to fake it
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Liberal means live and let live. Progressive means fighting for "what's right". One can be liberal without being progressive, and vice-versa.
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Anybody think the Hilton Hissy Fit regarding the moon is significant, considering that Hilton Hotels is featured in 2001: A Space Odyssey, released in 1968?
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particularly in context. But it's not impossible to recognize that the writers understood there are ambiguities even that phrase and they used it with that in mind.
The characters on this show are too complex, the writing too deft, for it to be dropped just like that. We'll see repercussions to that comment before the season is over, or an explanation by Don to Sal that it wasn't about his orientation.
Best episode of the season so far. I thought last week's, with Betty's last line, was fantastic. The lawn-mover episode was above and beyond expectations. But this episode, with so many characters reaching a nadir of self-destruction was just sublime. -
I thought too that it might be Don making a general statement about all the people making trouble in his life, but i don't think so in retrospect. I do think his apparent anger towards Sal is partially because Sal's issue is part of a wave of hassle he's contending with, and I think saying "you people", Don is lashing out a bit. I still disagree that he was condemning man-on-man action per se, but the perceived (perceived, I say!) promiscuity and lack of self control of homosexual activity. Which again I think is a bit of a commentary on his own behavior, and perhaps he even reacted that way because he saw some of his own issues reflected in the situation.
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I'm a conservative (politically). I always took progressive to mean keeping up with how society is changing for the good. To me liberal means something else.
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You see, Don is working on a script for a low-budget 1960s b-movie about an invasion by creatures that are half-human and half-sheep.
The writers could not have made it any clearer. And somehow you get homophobia from that? Sheesh... -
need to take a long look in the mirror. I know you like Don and don't want to think he's a homophobic bigot, but he is. It's the 60's for fuck's sake. EVERYONE was a homophobic bigot.
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He stole the identity of a superior officer.
He disowned his own brother, who seemed like a nice enough guy.
He relentlessly cheats on his smoking hot wife, and has implied that he'd be willing to bail on his family on moment's notice.
He treats EVERYBODY at the office like sun-dried dog shit.
That's not enough to dispell the Don Draper hero worship, but then he goes an says "you people" to Sal and NOW he's a douchebag?!
Seriously, I do not understand Ewe People. -
. . . he frequently drives drunk.
And he wears plaid shorts.
Clearly, he's irredeemable. -
He didn't give much of a shit when he first found out about Sal, if at all. All he did was tell Sal to be discreet. Then the next thing you know, they're on the verge of losing a client because of Sal. Not very discreet. When Don said "you people" I think it's supposed to be open to interpretation, and it certainly can be interpreted as a homophobic STATEMENT. But he's already proven he's not homophobic in practice. At the very least he can appreciate a well-kept secret, but he really hates a poorly kept one.
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Oct 13, 2009 2:08:55 PM CDT
The answer: Because Sal may have just cost them their biggest cl
by royston lodge
If Don didn't know Sal was gay he just would have used some other excuse to insult him, like calling him a wop or something.His mind needed something to blame the fuck-up on because he can never, ever blame the client.
The customer is always right, after all. -
You need to keep things in perspective. Plaid shorts, drunk driving, cheating, homophobia. That's shit EVERY guy, or at least many of them, did in the 60's, so you can't really judge him for that stuff in my mind. Of course by today's standards he'd be jagoff, but this isn't today, it's 1963.
As for the other stuff, you have a better argument. Though Betty may be hot, she's kind of annoying and has the emotional maturity of a schoolgirl. It's easy to see why Don would stray. One could also argue that Don didn't really think he was hurting anyone when he stole the dude's identity. He was young, desperate, and scared to boot. Not that that makes it right, but given Dick's past it was at least easy to sympathize with him.
His brother? You're right on that. That was pure selfishness. He stood to lose everything, and I can understand why he did it, but I got the impression his brother would have played along just to have him back in his life. But Dick probably didn't want to take the risk.
More than anything the likable thing about Don is that he's a MAN. He doesn't back down or let himself get pushed around. He's razor sharp, handsome, confident, self-made, and most of the time, kind. He's what every guy strives to be, minus the glaring faults. -
Sniff sniff. HE'S JUST MISUNDERSTOOD!!!
(Still waiting for some love for my Ewe People joke, btw. That's comedy gold!!!) -
The client dude had his gadar on, but Sal himself didn't do anything that a straight man wouldn't do. He immediately told the guy no, said he was married, then went right back to business. He didn't call Don and file a sexual harassment suit (don't know if those existed back then), Sal didn't DO anything. That's the whole tragedy of this episode. He was truly a victim of being gay. If Don hadn't known Sal was gay, maybe he wouldn't have fired him. At the very least, he would at least have the decency to discuss the matter with the client. The client knew he was wrong that's why he called the chubby guy with glasses.. he knew it was a shady thing to do.
The client may always be right, but it's hard for me to believe that the policy of the agency is to allow all senior employees to harassed and fired on the whim of whichever client happens to be in a bad mood that day. That will erode the moral of the entire company, and soon they will be losing more clients. I've worked in Art Departments most of my adult life, those guys aren't going to be doing their best work now that Sal is gone.
That or the world is truly much different these days. If Conrad Hilton said "That pete campbell guy, rubs me the wrong way. Get rid of him" they would do it? I doubt it. -
Oct 13, 2009 2:35:41 PM CDT
My point being Sal should only have been removed from the ad
by cylon_conspiracy
Not the entire freaking company. They want to make the Lucky Strike gay dude happy, fine, pull Sal off the account. But you can't just FIRE a person for nothing. But maybe you could in 1963.
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About our intense loyalty to Don, our main character, even though if we pulled back from our adoration and saw him more objectively, hes an empty douche, just like Tony Soprano was really a priggish thug, we just didn't really want to see it that way. Weiner was a main writer on the sopranos, and I think this is the same sort of thing they played around with on that show. For some reason, we liked Tony, we defended him, we saw the shit he had to deal with. I think Don is even more complicated because, for one, he is so handsome, so charming, and so smart. Tony didn't always even have those basic things going for him. We WANT to like Don, and want to see him succeed, and it, for lack of a better term, hurts our feelings when he doesn't live up to the things we want to see from him. Seeing him say "you people" is a fucking shock for most of us, because we don't want to like someone who say those things. It's a complicated bit of writing and character development, and it plays on our very nature to like the person the show focuses on. Royston is hitting it pretty dead-on his last few posts.
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If it is what you say it is, I don't think it's a complicated bit of writing and character development, it's just kind of gimmicky. On the other hand, it's not that egregious, he's done far worse things than say "you people" to Sal whose secret he knew and kept and obviously wasn't very bent out of shape about in and of itself.
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Now, send me your money and women.
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Just go to the Mad Men website and check it out after every episode. It's essential. John Slattery said that Don was being judgmental when he said, "you people."
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And give him an offer he can't refuse, and that offer is his fat Italian braciole, and he will then be back on the account. At last I hope so. This can't be the end of this storyline, or can it be? I have no fucking clue.
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as in..."you women with your short skirts and makeup practically begging for sex" When Don said "you people" to Sal, he was basically saying, well, you probably DID do something to provoke it.
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As much as I don't want to lose Sal from the show, I think in some ways it would be a disservice to real gay people who may have suffered similar fates during that time. It makes no real impact if they find a happy convenient way to bring Sal back and we see how things were bad back then, but our characters are different and make the right choice. I think Sal's time may be up at Sterling Cooper for good.
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He couldn't have been referring to gays when he said "you people" because obviously gays aren't really people so Don is still a good guy.
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The man is Don Fucking Draper!
Respect his authoritay, have another Canadian Club on the rocks, and go rustle us up a couple of horny stewardesses! -
That's how it was before 1975. The WW I and WW II Generations could be cold-blooded SOBs. Life was hard in the 1880's-1920's. You lost siblings in childhood to measles, polio, influenza. Parents to childbirth, even scratches that became infected. They lost brothers, sons, and best friends in the wars. No time for sympathy, and compassion was beaten out of them by LifeRoger's line about "Accounts" means he knows how to coddle, conjole, and take the shit from psycho clients. That's also why he is a real SOB to his co-workers and his family, because it's the only time he doesn't have to watch what he says.Don Draper "sold his soul to the Company Store", and with Connie running him ragged, he is turning into Roger Sterling.Oh, Sal will end up working for Duck, so will Joan. Roston you nailed it, Grey is on the way up, and S-C will be a shadow of it's former self by 1970.------later-----m
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Sal didn't actually get fired because of what he did. Roger didn't know what happened. The Lucky Strikes jerk was drunk, and propositioned Sal. He then sobered up and realized he may be in big trouble and could get outed. So he wanted to get rid of Sal and keep his secret life hidden. Harry figured it'd blow over, but fucked up. When the client saw Sal, he freaked out. If he had pulled Sal off of the campaign and he stayed out of the client's way it may have blown over. Plus, as Don suggests, Lucky Strikes is their biggest client.Don is losing patience with everyone, and the irritated, falling apart Don turns cranky. From his perspective, I'd think he sees Sal's gayness (or anyone's) as some dirty vice that he should keep to himself. I mean, remember, it's 1963. You're lucky if people have progressive attitudes about blacks! We still have trouble with gays being accepted. It's virtually unheard of in polite society to even mention it at that time. It wasn't some lifestyle choice. It was a perversion that you kept to yourself.
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Oct 13, 2009 11:40:44 PM CDT
I could give two shits if Don's a homophobe or not.
by dailysportspages
Thats not the point.
The point is that "You People" was clearly demonstrated to be the culmination of Don's frustration with the failures of the people around him.
Yes he lashed out at Sal, but his being gay was not the reason for the lash out... but that his being gay caused a major problem.
Don would have given Peggy the same response if she had offended such a big time client, instead of suavely and discretely worked her way out of the jam.
Obviously whatever Sal did was completely unacceptable to the client.
And in their world, thats all that matters.
Now about the whole "well its the sixties and men like Don would probably be homophobic"... fuck that.
Men have always and will always be homophobic to a certain extent. Not all men mind you, but the large majority of them.
Unless you are a puritan bible thumper or some muslim extremist, then your views on gays are probably going to fall somewhere along the lines.... of "im not a fan of gay guys, but what they do does not affect me, and as long as they dont do it in front of me or my children... then i dont really care what they are".
Thats how most men think today, and how they thought in the 60's.
Don has shown not to be a homophobe, but that doesnt mean he likes the idea of homosexuality or that he wants to be associated with one.
To a lot of modern ears that would still be homophobic of course, but thats mere political correctness.
Im not onionphobic just because i dont like onions in my burger... you can eat all the onions you want in front of me and i have no problems with it, just dont sneak any onions into my burger or im gonna be pissed :)
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Oct 14, 2009 12:50:03 AM CDT
I guess people just like to feel more enlightened than they are
by cylon_conspiracy
The common stereotype of that era was everyone was going to church and hating gays and blacks. If most people back then really were indifferent to homosexuality you're going to have a lot of activists wondering what their life's purpose should be.
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I just got caught up via Netflix, On Demand, AMC.com and itunes, so Sunday night was my first "live" episode. It actually feels really weird to not have a new episode at my fingertips anymore, and I think I may be going through a bit of withdrawal.Anyway, there are some very interesting points of view in here, and the quality of conversation in this talkback is light years ahead of most others on this site. I'll be here bright and early for next week's episode.
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poor Sal, easily one of my favorite characters on the show. But I totally agree with whoever said above that this is the beginning of the end for Sterling Cooper, which seems to have an extremely self destructive environment this season. Not only are they tearing themselves apart from the inside, they now have an extremely disgruntled ex-employee in Duck who I think would stop at nothing to see that firm destroyed.As if that weren't enough, Sterling Cooper is an old fashioned firm run by old fashioned men, and is on the brink of one of the most turbulent and rebellious periods the country has ever seen.Imo, season 4 is going to be a serious downer for the characters tied to Sterling Cooper.
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He cheats on his wife, he bullies his employees, he's a total lush, a self-loathing workaholic, etc. He's not a homophobe to the extent that the revelation about Sal's identity had nothing to do with holding him back in his goals, but the moment it became an issue he didn't even think twice about dumping him from the firm.
He's the protagonist, sure, but only a sado-masochist would actually feel sympathy for him...the fun of the series is watching how this interesting but deeply flawed character presses forward in his ambitions. -
1963...boy, that poor guy's going to have to wait a while before he can finally be open about himself...
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He get's in at 10, leaves at 4, and sleeps on his office sofa in between.
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... they actually started using the slogan "It's Toasted" in 1917.
Mad Men lied to us.
I blame Don Draper. The cad!
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Oct 14, 2009 12:25:14 PM CDT
I think Mad Men fans are like Star Trek fans, in that . . .
by royston lodge
. . . half the fun of watching the show is complaining about it for days after the episode airs. ;-)
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... I was just reminiscing about that Ewe People quip. Gosh, that was funny...
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