Cool News
Judge Bender Studies Denzel Washington In The Hughes Brothers' THE BOOK OF ELI!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Beaks here...
The Hughes Brothers are undeniably talented filmmakers. MENACE II SOCIETY still stands as the best of the early 1990s 'hood movies, while DEAD PRESIDENTS flirts with greatness before losing its way about halfway through (though it's still worth watching for Chris Tucker's incredible performance). But FROM HELL was a gorgeously-designed botch, and, for whatever reason, this put the Hughes' career on hold for close to a decade.
Now they're back with THE BOOK OF ELI, which, judging from the trailer, appears to be a post-apocalyptic riff on any number of Japanese swordsman tales. The good news: it's surely going to be better than Albert Pyun's OMEGA DOOM. The bad news: if Judge Bender's assessment is spot-on, maybe not by much.
It's important to note that Bender viewed an unfinished version of the film. There is still plenty of time to tighten the film up - and perhaps sneak in some reshoots - before its January 15, 2010 release. I should also say that I elided a paragraph from this review because I don't want to spoil the film's big third-act twist. Bender thinks they should jettison this reveal completely, but it sounds like the entire screenplay is building to this moment.
Take it away, Judge...
The wife and I were able to catch a private screening of the Hughes Brothers "The Book of Eli" in Dallas a couple of weeks ago. I have been dying for the opportunity to write a review for AICN now for almost a decade but the opportunity had never presented itself to me....until this particular event.
We went to a private screening of the new Hughes Brothers directed "The Book of Eli". According to the lady who spoke in front of about a 350 or so theater attendee's, this was the first time EVER anyone had seen this version of the movie. She mentioned the "color" is not fully adjusted and special effects not complete and music is temporary. I am sad to say that while the movie appeared completely done (other than the music and some effects shotes) it didn't seem like anything would be able to save this heep.
"The Book of Eli" is apacolyptic in it's tone and allegorical in it's message. You get the idea from the trailer posted on the internet currently. What the trailer fails to indicate is what a mess this story really ends up being.
Bascially the end of the world as we know it has occured due to the ravages of a nuclear holocaust 30 years previous. The reasons for the holocaust were religious differences between the countries in control (that could be a reference to any number of potential nuclear war potentials). In many ways the story makes sense. I mean, religious turmoil has been around since the beginning of time and who knows when the button could be pushed by some rogue crazy fuck country. The problem with this particular story is : the dialogue, the acting AND the broad strokes the directors seem to want to take WITH the story. There are no real distinct details to make the story more believeable. Basically, Eli has the only bible left on the planet and with it comes the power to re-evolve the "masses" and put back civilzation on the correct path of redemption. This is the reason, too, that Gary Oldman's character wants the bible. His desire for control is more deviant and repressive. A strange detail to this movie is that it appears that Gary Oldman and Denzel are two of the only people still living that remember what the "book" or bible really is. Kind of hard to believe when you think about it.
First off let me say that I love Denzel. I also love Mila. I must say too that I have a bunch of respect for Gary Oldman. These are all "veterans" of the acting genre. When I was watching this movie the only thing I could think about was that this must be either a "joke" reel or they are going to have to go back to have massive re-shoots to cover up some of these scenes. Mila comes across as completely one dimensional as with no real purpose to the story.
Spoiler Free Synopsis of the movie: The planet is devastated and inhabitated by a bunch of Road Warrior wannabe's after some type of religion-fueled nuclear war 30 years previous. A man named Eli (Denzel) was given a "message" years previous to deliver a book (the bible) somehere to the WEST for the sake of of a religious "re-birth" and evolution to occur for society. The message "Eli" received was pretty vague and there are underlying challenges he faces to this journey. More cahllenges than actually meet the "eye", so to speak. It will spoil the plot to say anything else but let me tell you this... The only good thing about this movie is Denzel. There is also a MAJOR plot twist that occurs at the end of the movie to indicate to the audience the challenge and sacrifice the journey must have been for "Eli". All I could think when this "twist" occurs was "there is no fucking way that could actually be the case". The Hughes brothers must have thought about the cheapest trick in the book to put over on the audience and then EXPECT them to believe it. And there in lies another problem with the movie. It feels almost as if it is some low budget movie of the week. The pacing and delivery in the current version is also just way too slow.
The good:
Denzel is GREAT. None of his previous characters come close to what he delivers from a bad-ass perspective. Both gentle at times and lethal at others. I mean really LETHAL. The movie is at its best when the few (too few in my opinion) action sequences occur. Denzel is in a class by himself but the end result is he should've done something with the script/cast before accepting this role.
Jennifer Beals plays the she-servant to Gary Oldman's bad guy. She is also the mother of Mila's character. It is too bad that Jennifer is somewhat underused and really the only other positive igredient to the entire cast.
The good ends with that.
The bad:
Gary Oldman- in his typical "waiting to explode with over-acting" bad guy routine. He plays the only other character who realizes the value of the bible. How are he and Denzel the only two people on the planet who know the value of the bible? Just doesn't make sense.
Mila Kunis- whom I love- is completely out of place and serves NO purpose in this movie and her acting is about as cardboard as you can get in this movie- but I still love her.
The countless dispensable bad-guy goons- the only purpose of these guys is to show the efficiency of Denzel with a blade.
The cinematography- looked like a made for t.v. movie. The colorization was awful as well. They said it wasn't completely "colorized" but I can't see how ANY color could help this movie. The best looking part of this movie has been the trailer. Boy does the trailer mispresent this stinker.
The whole movie just seemed bland. The ending is what it is. There IS a message to why Eli (Denzel) is delivering the "book" and what it hopes to do for the world. There are really just too many questions at the end of the movie and really not enough to close all of the gaping holes of questions that are never answered.
Don't get me wrong. I am all for a great message that will help people realize the benefits of a belief system..blah blah blah...but the movie itself is unbelieveable and therein lies the problem. You just don't suspend belief enough to believe this could happen.
If you use this just call me Judge Bender
Thanks for the review, man. Here's hoping I completely disagree with you.
We went to a private screening of the new Hughes Brothers directed "The Book of Eli". According to the lady who spoke in front of about a 350 or so theater attendee's, this was the first time EVER anyone had seen this version of the movie. She mentioned the "color" is not fully adjusted and special effects not complete and music is temporary. I am sad to say that while the movie appeared completely done (other than the music and some effects shotes) it didn't seem like anything would be able to save this heep.
"The Book of Eli" is apacolyptic in it's tone and allegorical in it's message. You get the idea from the trailer posted on the internet currently. What the trailer fails to indicate is what a mess this story really ends up being.
Bascially the end of the world as we know it has occured due to the ravages of a nuclear holocaust 30 years previous. The reasons for the holocaust were religious differences between the countries in control (that could be a reference to any number of potential nuclear war potentials). In many ways the story makes sense. I mean, religious turmoil has been around since the beginning of time and who knows when the button could be pushed by some rogue crazy fuck country. The problem with this particular story is : the dialogue, the acting AND the broad strokes the directors seem to want to take WITH the story. There are no real distinct details to make the story more believeable. Basically, Eli has the only bible left on the planet and with it comes the power to re-evolve the "masses" and put back civilzation on the correct path of redemption. This is the reason, too, that Gary Oldman's character wants the bible. His desire for control is more deviant and repressive. A strange detail to this movie is that it appears that Gary Oldman and Denzel are two of the only people still living that remember what the "book" or bible really is. Kind of hard to believe when you think about it.
First off let me say that I love Denzel. I also love Mila. I must say too that I have a bunch of respect for Gary Oldman. These are all "veterans" of the acting genre. When I was watching this movie the only thing I could think about was that this must be either a "joke" reel or they are going to have to go back to have massive re-shoots to cover up some of these scenes. Mila comes across as completely one dimensional as with no real purpose to the story.
Spoiler Free Synopsis of the movie: The planet is devastated and inhabitated by a bunch of Road Warrior wannabe's after some type of religion-fueled nuclear war 30 years previous. A man named Eli (Denzel) was given a "message" years previous to deliver a book (the bible) somehere to the WEST for the sake of of a religious "re-birth" and evolution to occur for society. The message "Eli" received was pretty vague and there are underlying challenges he faces to this journey. More cahllenges than actually meet the "eye", so to speak. It will spoil the plot to say anything else but let me tell you this... The only good thing about this movie is Denzel. There is also a MAJOR plot twist that occurs at the end of the movie to indicate to the audience the challenge and sacrifice the journey must have been for "Eli". All I could think when this "twist" occurs was "there is no fucking way that could actually be the case". The Hughes brothers must have thought about the cheapest trick in the book to put over on the audience and then EXPECT them to believe it. And there in lies another problem with the movie. It feels almost as if it is some low budget movie of the week. The pacing and delivery in the current version is also just way too slow.
The good:
Denzel is GREAT. None of his previous characters come close to what he delivers from a bad-ass perspective. Both gentle at times and lethal at others. I mean really LETHAL. The movie is at its best when the few (too few in my opinion) action sequences occur. Denzel is in a class by himself but the end result is he should've done something with the script/cast before accepting this role.
Jennifer Beals plays the she-servant to Gary Oldman's bad guy. She is also the mother of Mila's character. It is too bad that Jennifer is somewhat underused and really the only other positive igredient to the entire cast.
The good ends with that.
The bad:
Gary Oldman- in his typical "waiting to explode with over-acting" bad guy routine. He plays the only other character who realizes the value of the bible. How are he and Denzel the only two people on the planet who know the value of the bible? Just doesn't make sense.
Mila Kunis- whom I love- is completely out of place and serves NO purpose in this movie and her acting is about as cardboard as you can get in this movie- but I still love her.
The countless dispensable bad-guy goons- the only purpose of these guys is to show the efficiency of Denzel with a blade.
The cinematography- looked like a made for t.v. movie. The colorization was awful as well. They said it wasn't completely "colorized" but I can't see how ANY color could help this movie. The best looking part of this movie has been the trailer. Boy does the trailer mispresent this stinker.
The whole movie just seemed bland. The ending is what it is. There IS a message to why Eli (Denzel) is delivering the "book" and what it hopes to do for the world. There are really just too many questions at the end of the movie and really not enough to close all of the gaping holes of questions that are never answered.
Don't get me wrong. I am all for a great message that will help people realize the benefits of a belief system..blah blah blah...but the movie itself is unbelieveable and therein lies the problem. You just don't suspend belief enough to believe this could happen.
If you use this just call me Judge Bender
-
+ Expand All
-
I am really looking forward to this movie. Judge just shat a turn in my punchbowl.
-
Judge said that it is too slow. Isn't that indicative of a need for editing?
If this is the first showing I am sure they will tighten it up. -
I'm always a tad skeptical of these early year releases. A drama released in January is trying to make a fresh point in voters' minds during the Oscar rush, but an action film just flirts with thoughts of "not good enough for holiday or summer seasons."
-
... as the best of the early 1990s 'hood movies" WOW, that says so much about their talent. That's like being declared the BEST kind of cancer.
-
And it sounds pretty reputable, in fact. I'll see it because Denzel is a great actor and that's enough in my book.
-
but why would it be a good idea to spread the bible around again if religious problems were what caused the apocalypse in the first place? Couldn't they build up a society NOT based on religious dogma? And after 30 years no one even knows there's such a thing as a bible? Uh...anyone ever heard of an oral history? Not one single person would pass on the oral history of Judaism and/or Christianity?
-
That comment could make someone laugh away their cancer. ;)
-
They're all crap upon revisitation.
-
Oct 08, 2009 12:47:32 PM CDT
Isn't it convenient that Denzel's plays "Eli" a biblical name?
by yackbacker
Imagine if it was THE BOOK OF BOB or THE BOOK OF BRUCE. Those names don't work as well!
-
The trailer looked pretty good IMO. Hopefully they can do something with it between now and release.
-
My worry is there are too many coming out too close together, and audiences won't show up. Which would suck because I LOVE post apocalyptic movies!
-
http://tinyurl.com/ydjlcdy
It will be called Rise of the Lich King and will tell,well,the rise of the Lich King,Arthas from a golden boy turned into an evil badass.
finger crossed they will cast someone suitable.... -
Without all that bullshit that people use to justify violence and oppression.
-
CHRISTIAN FUCKING BALE.
-
Why not inviso-text the twist and let us decide whether to read it or not?
-
Would have been better.
-
Makes perfect sense...the world was destroyed due to religion, so let's get religion going again (lol). What a terrible, terrible joke - and a really terrible moral. The world would be a better place without religion and here's a stupid movie telling us that religion will save the world (even though it's already destroyed it in the movie). Typical Hollywood logic.
-
the flick AMERICAN PIMP??? That movie was absolutely nuts!!
-
The bible is a cobbled together mess of storybooks from various eras. Then there's the King James version, where they decided to edit it all yet again. The bible is so filled with contradiction, discrepancies, and outright nonsense...and this is supposed to be the work of a divine, omnipotent being (lol). People are just too gullible!
-
Oct 08, 2009 1:05:04 PM CDT
This review isn't very coherent...doesn't mean it's wrong...
by flickapoo
...but I'll reserve judgment for now. I didn't know the plot was about delivering a bible for the good of humanity though...the world is over and the first thing we do in re-invent Sunday school? Lets focus on getting a really good deli up and running again, okay?
-
Very original film. Naturally no one likes it.
-
DRAINAGE, ELI.
-
Very different from the graphic novel... but a fine film in its own right.
-
and i dont think that will look good with blond hair either
-
...a really good deli, the kind with good bread and huge subs for no more than six bucks. A good hole in the wall used book store, with a good and idiosyncratic hardcover art book section. A gym with some decent free-weights. No girly machines necessary.Someplace to get good coffee, preferably my house.New York City. I like New York.An X-Box...preferably powered by a hot chick riding a stationary bike/generator machine.I'm sure there's a lot more...it'll come to me....
-
I almost made another post immediately after mine along the lines of "I mean, an "edited Bible"? What a joke!", but I figured I'd let it lie until someone else picked up the baton.
-
How about we put the hot chick powering the X-Box on an elliptical instead? That way we get to see her funbags go a-bouncy-bouncy.
-
Oct 08, 2009 1:14:53 PM CDT
This is all assuming they already re-invented sex, right?...
by flickapoo
...I mean that's first. And second.
-
...done.
-
Interesting that is singled out, as this film was shot with the RED camera. Judge Bender, if you're out there, can you chime in on whether it was the composition or the actual look that turned you off? You mentioned made-for-TV -- too many tight shots, indicating a lack of budget, or the look of a hastily shot low-budget film? There's a lot of talk about the RED and the early adopters will defend it to their dying days but it's going to be interesting to see what people think as the cameras start delivering images to the multiplexes.
-
I'm sick to fucking death with vampire storys
Vampires can suck my fucking dick, and not you fang face, fuck off or I'll pour salt on you or something
So your the star of the vampires aprentice.
Could be worse you could be the star of the tooth fairy -
who is this chucklefuck?
-
Bullshit. I'm pretty sure that after a nuclear holocaust, the only two things left will be cockroaches and Bibles. Those Gideons didn't do all that hard work for nothing, you know.
-
Hey, explain about the red cameras...what's special about 'em? (just curious)
-
Wasn't too bad when I saw it, but after you read the source material you realize that they really fucked up a great opportunity
-
then i hope the heores fail miserably and the bible gets lost for good, and only get rediscovered again 3000 years into the future. And then those future people will take it as seriously as today we take the religious myths of the ancient egypcians.I hope the quest fucking fails miserably, both for the hero and the villain.
-
Coming out so soon? Why does hollywood always do this?
-
and I knew there was no way they could transfer that to film without major changes, so I wasn't surprised. They kept the atmosphere of it. The story was very different, but it worked for film, imo.
-
Obviously, you never read the comic form which From Hell is baded on. Let me say, the movie is like a version of the comic FOR THE RETARDS. And all that parapsycological powers bulslhit is just shit made for the movie, there is absolutly nothing of that in the comic. The comic is a serious, adult interpretation of the motivations behind Jaxck The Ripper. The movie is a clown act trying to portait the ripper Murders as a fancy clone of Seven with sueprnatural percepttion. Bullshit. Besdie,s the real problem with thye movie From Hell is that it lacks originality in the shit it created to substitute the adult stuff from the comic. From Hell the movie is a joke. Brillant set design, though.
-
Counting the days for The Road?
-
....is to stand there and look hot so AICN fanboys will flock to this movie like they do with Megan Fox.Too bad about the review, this movie would have been cool to have a unofficial FALLOUT movie. And Gary Oldman "waiting to explode with his overacting" is NEVER a negative quality for a movie to have. Sounds like a DVD rental to me.How were the hand-to-hand combat sequences? In the trailer the fights look fake and slow moving.
-
Oct 08, 2009 1:31:33 PM CDT
I think an "acting genre" movie is any film not starring...
by flickapoo
...Toby Maguire.
-
She is not under my desk right now.
-
It was a good movie, but I haven't read the graphic novel, which I'm sure is better...but I'm also sure that if those that read the graphic novel and were able to divorce themselves from it and just watch the movie as just a Jack The Ripper tale, it would go up a few notches in their rating. The only thing that bugged me was casting Johnny Depp and Heather Graham, too pretty for their roles. The rest of the cast was great. Nice production design, too.
-
This is written by Gary Whitta, the same guy who did the screenplay for the failed Akira adaptation. He was editor in chief of PC Gamer magazine for a little while. Why am I posting this?
-
She's pretty..but sorry folks, she cant fucking act. At all. Great tits do not make a good actress. Anyone seen American Psycho 2? She's horrid.
-
...it looked, and felt, horrible and uninspired??? No one in the theater was impressed--there was just a stunned silence throughout the theater!!!
-
I find it impossible to want the main character to succeed. Just burn the fucker and get rid of christianity forever after all it seems to be at least 50% responsible for the state of the world the character is living in.
-
and gary oldman wants to wipe everyone else out? I don't trust this reviewer, some of the article was literally incoherent.
-
Not sure. The release date seems to be up in the air again. I've seen it listed as both October 16th and November 25th. Either way, I'm counting down.
-
doesn't stand for The Book Of rELIgion.
-
And the best idea people have is to reinvent the one thing that destroyed humanity. Am I to believe that absolutely no one involved in the production of this film thought that to be a huge fucking problem? The trailer was interesting enough, although what they showed of the fight scenes seemed stiff and unconvincing. If those are the highlights, I think I'll pass.
-
So i take it you don't read many reviews from the big guy then cause god knows only about one in three paragraphs is written in anything that could be described as english.
-
...the chance to wipe out 98% of the world population if it meant that all other religions were exterminated and the survivors (conveniently in America) would have one bible (King James translation of course) to start over with. jump at the fucking chance.
-
If that accurately describes his role in "The Professional" as well, then this movie will have my butt in the seat. "EEEVVVERRRRYYYY-ONNNNNNEE!!!!"
-
I like the site, but I never read any articles written by Harry.
-
Now I'd pay 14 bucks to go see that at the arclight. What happened to the Hughes Brothers making good old fashion Lorenz Tate movies... sigh.
-
Anyone who criticses his acting in that film just loses the point entirely.
-
I don't care about this movie, but this review seems bogus. I just can't believe that Denzel & Gordon would be in a movie where everybody forgot about religion within 30 years of a wipeout. That's just too dumb.
-
though for me i stopped paying attention to his reviews after his superman returns review. Clearly he saw a completely different film to the one i saw. Still occasionally read some of his stuff but his reviews are never the ones i pay attention to as to whether i should see a film or not.
-
HE WAS IN THE ROOM THE WHOLE TIME.
-
...basically the world keeps going through the cycle from from the most primitive survivors to an advanced technological society, to inevitable nuclear armageddon.Each time an incomplete and mutated version of Christianity survives and re-emerges to rekindle civilization...complete with clergy and monasticism...but getting less and less recognizable with each cycle.One of the main characters is a monk in the American desert who finds some diagrams in cave/bunker and turns them into a beautiful illuminated manuscript...the manuscript becomes an object of veneration, one thing leads to another and well, you know...
-
Denzel Washington is really dead. And yet, also a figment of Gary Oldman's imagination.
-
... is a hit-or-miss thing. Gangbusters in "Leon," not so much in that fucking horrible "Fifth Element." Then again, almost every actor went haywire in that film, thank you very much, Luc Besson.
-
Does Denzel find out he's Jesus and Oldman is actually Satan?
-
the twist is pretty obvious, both from the trailer and this review.
read the line about the challenges Eli faces, what's in quotations?
And SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER - Eli's wearing sunglasses the entire time.
Get it? Get it? -
—Maybe "Book of Eli" will use the format to it's advantage like Blomkamp and Co. have done.
-
I watcheed the movie From Hell befroe i read the comic. And even then the movie was too silly and fillef with too much paranormal PSI bullshit, which for a Jack The Ripper movie is quite in poor taste. And then i read the comic and the movie looked even worst.
-
Man, what's with the ever changing dates for The Road's release? It's despairing!
-
I wanted to like Fifth Element more then i actually do. I really wanted to love that movie.
-
You actually know and read A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ? Wow! I though i was the only one around here! Good to know somebody else who knows the classic SF masterpiece.
-
Totally agree. There's so much great visual stuff going on in there, and some of Besson's work is a ton of fun. But FE just never came together for me. Chris Tucker's "performance" along made me want to shove power drills into my ears.
-
Obviously, you never read Harry Knowles' "i cried when i watched it" Armaggedon review, haven't you? Or his most infamous of all, his Blade 2 review. I would challenged you to do that archeological digging... if you dare!
-
ermph...
-
I thought the pacing, acting (for the most part), direction and cinematography were great. Everything to do with the actual filmmaking was very well done. The problem was with certain aspects of the story and the twist at the end which i don't think can be fixed. Most people looking for post apocalyptic action will be turned off by the religion and the people wanting the religion will hate the gore and language.
-
Oct 08, 2009 2:44:20 PM CDT
Guh, the ideal alone that the Bible is key to civilization is of
by wintocha67
Religion is nothing but a tool of tyranny. One we'd all do well to grow up and leave behind. There's nothing in the Bible but propaganda and ignorant, hateful tribalism.
-
Oct 08, 2009 2:44:28 PM CDT
Wait a second: Religion was what destroyed that world...
by gettingbannedisfun
...so the best thing you can do there to "save it" is to bring religion back? WTF?
-
Oct 08, 2009 2:45:22 PM CDT
And why the bible and not any other religious book?
by gettingbannedisfun
I smell christian propaganda!
-
Oh God, Chris Tucker!!! Beleive it or not,t hat was the first movie ie ver saw Chris Tucker in. And it made me wish it was the last. What the hell is with that guy?But you are right, so much good stuff going on in Fifth Element, and in the end, it's all "meh"! A crime, considering that previously he mad made Leon (aka, The Professional), which in fact was made during a lul in the pre-production of Fifth Element. The "quickie movie made while i'm waiting" proved to be the most superior work. How about that?
-
Absolutely ripped off Murder by Decree...its the exact same story but without Sherlock Holmes.
-
Now, there's a piece of Leon trivia of which I was not aware. Go fuckin' figure... Yeah, maybe that's Luc's problem: give him too much time to overthink something and he loses it.
-
He has the King James version of the bible.
-
Oct 08, 2009 2:49:53 PM CDT
I agree with the people complaining about the movie's logic
by asimovlives
Religion helped made people destroy the world, and now some fools want to bring religion back on? Where's the fucking logic in that?So, basicallyl, what we have in here is a movie where the hero is a fundamentalist who still believes the nonsensical unprovved myths that created the end of the world, and the villain an tele-evangelist type opportunist. Really, who am i supposed to root for, anyway? I might evne root for the villain, at least he knows the bigle is bullshit, and he uses it for gain and profit, knowing fully well it's just a bunch of nonsense writen in book form. The hero, the supposed hero, he's a fundie! Fucking hell, man! No, literally, fucking hell!
-
...I don't usually read a lot of SF, I like good writing first and usually avoid hard tech stuff. It was the monastic and semi medieval angle that first attracted me to LEIBOWITZ. Great book.Any recommendations? I've already read and love all of Ursula LeGuin.
-
By that logic, if i ever get bitten by a venenous snake, don't take the antidote, just get another bite from the same snake, that will do it.
-
Since you mentioned Ursula L. LeGuinn, i ask you if you ever read her book "The Word For World Is Forest"?
-
Oct 08, 2009 2:52:55 PM CDT
The vitriol towards a belief in God around here is ridiculous!
by andy_dufresne
I mean I am all for the lefty, moral relativism, vibe on aintitcool but give it a rest. Free people can believe whatever they want and you guys with your superiority complex get old on here. Many of you complain saying that those with a belief in God are intolerant a-holes but the mere fact that you are intolerant of their beliefs just proves that fact that you are huge hypocrites. Live and let live. If you want to believe in a giant dragon overlord who controls the universe, go ahead. If someone else wants to believe in an omnipotent God then let them believe it. Enough is enough with the intolerance towards theists.
-
I really love Leon, great small movie that surpasses the big action ones in their owen game, while still delibering proper drama. I don't evne know what i love more aobut Leon, the drama or the action. Can't say the same about most action movies, can we?You might be into something about Luc Besson over-thinking things. He first came up with the idea for Fifth Element when he was in collegue. The movie was his adolescence dream came true. Take from that what you will.
-
YOU MAY KNEEL BEFORE ME WHILST I UNZIP.
-
Early high school, he was like 14 or 16 when he first came up with the story that eventually became Fifth Element.
-
SHUT THE FUCK UP
-
Only if you tell us what you think of Spock's Fascinating Automatic Moving Chair Of Doom.
-
...I believe so, but between the novels and short stories I'm embarrassed to say I'm not completely sure...the Ekumen stories in particular start to overlap and bleed together after a while. I have been thinking it's time to just re-read everything.
-
It's not vitrol, it's common sense. Religion had it's expiring date since the end of WWI. After that, it's all bullshit based on cultural sturboness and brain-washing.
-
So sayeth me.
-
I really love "The Word For World Is Forest", and i don't even share LeGuinn's ecological ideals. That's how good that book is, that can make me, who doesn't share her beliefs, love it too.I can't recomend Philip K. Dick enough. I know it's now a cliché to hail PKD as a great Sf author nowdays, but bear with me, i discovered the man in thelate 80s when it was not yet fashionable to love the man's work. My favorite book of his is A Scanner Darkly, which was later adapted into a satisfactory movie, but it can't compare to the the book, i'm affraid.If you want a completle bonkers, spaced out, crazy and magnificent Sf book full of invention and idea,s i cna't recomend high enough Jeff Noon's Vurt. That book is just brillant... and mental!
-
Frederick Pohl's Gateway and The Space Merchants are also brillant books as well.
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:06:56 PM CDT
There's nothing wrong with using religion to "save the world"
by d.vader
It just seems in today's times that religion has caused a lot of problems. But it CAN do a lot of good.
-
I remember how awesome that stuff was when i first read it. The pure joy of discovering great awesome SF which can match any other literature in any genre.
-
... doesn't deserve to be saved.
-
...thanks. Like a lot of people I dabbled in Dick in college (um...). Never tried SCANNER DARKLY...really should just for the title alone.
-
My Father Antonio is the man who introduced me to all my fave books & films man - With out the Catholic missionary in my village I would never have heared of Batman , Dick Tracy, Dr Who's, Dan Shanks, Red Sonia, Jesus, Candyman. He loves God - even though he is no longer in the church. They had no place for a priest with new ideas for helping the poor and loney in my village. Fuck you Ass-imov God and Moses would kill you and fuck you for breakfast.
-
...post of the day. Maybe the week.
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:16:56 PM CDT
I agree Vader. Religion can be a powerful force for good
by toadkillerdog
I am an unapologetic Roman Catholic, and I know some of the history of the church. I know that any organization run by man can be perverted to any cause that weak willed men and women choose to pursue. But that does not mean that belief itself is a bad thing. It means that we must always be vigilant and not allow ourselves to be led around like mindless sheep, but belonging to a community of believers - in just about anything - religious or otherwise, is a wonderful thing to be a part of. And the core of most religions is peace and understanding. That message is all to easily ignored though.
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:17:44 PM CDT
And the Twist is that the Bible turns out to be...
by gettingbannedisfun
...a copy of "Battlefield Earth".
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:17:55 PM CDT
...of course the fact that he's not with the church anymore...
by flickapoo
...should maybe tell you something...
-
name drop every good old science fiction book i've every read.
I just can't bring myself to do it...
Without wanting to shoot myself in the fucking face! -
Oct 08, 2009 3:19:51 PM CDT
And come on, doesn't matter how religious you are...
by gettingbannedisfun
...don't you agree that the premise of the movie (bring back what caused all the trouble in the first place, only that it's now a good thing) is kinda ridiculous?
-
You have no reason to apologise for being a Roman Catholic my friend - unless you are like my friend Father De Lucio who was arrested in Villa De Portio in the next district last year. We apologise for his bad ways and have given fruit and cheese to the boys family
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:20:30 PM CDT
...I don't think people are anti-christianity necessarily...
by flickapoo
...but after a religion fueled apocalypse, maybe it's time to give isms and anities a rest for a while.
-
...well done.
-
I will share what I heard from a reliable source (Bender) that he apologizes if the review was a little vague but it was written intentionally broad because certain details would give away too much of the story. A story which was boring and awfully acted. P.S. Take my word for it. There is nothing that can save this train-wreck unless they elimate Mila and 3/4 of the rest of the bad acting.
-
I don't think this reviewer has any idea what he's talking about.
-
Are you spanish? And still, what does that got to do that you once know a cool nice padre? I have known cool nice padres too. And that doesn't stop religion from being wrong and based on lies and myths without any base on reality.
-
A good padre is just that, a good person, not a justification for a religion.
-
Can you hnadle the truth?
-
I speak Spanish but am not from Spain - And what part of the Holy Bible is based on myths - C'mon guys lets not let this fool try to put the worlds best religions in his arsehole
-
The reviewer's review was edited to avoid spoilers. Maybe that's why his review reads a bit badly, and full of non sequiturs, i guess.
-
What part of the Bible? well, how about THE WHOLE OF IT? You can start with the part in the Bible where it says, BLACK ON WHITE, that the value of PI is 3.
-
Way past it's use since the industrial revolution.
-
What is a pi? You mean Pie - so thats a lie to you - OK Mr Asimov no pies really exist (can you believe this guy!)
-
he's saying they ARE Myths
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:37:54 PM CDT
...in all fairness, the spcifically godless isms of the 20th...
by flickapoo
...were as bad or worse than anything religion has cooked up (or boiled in oil, or drawn and quartered) in history...and without the charity, good works, leper colonies, and Mother Teresas. People can be fundamentalist about anything. I think the "I can't eat any wheat product" fundamentalists piss me off the most.
-
Anything can be a power tool for good. Deopsn't have to be religion. In fact, history tells us that religion has been used mostly for control, to justify the elite's abuse of the people and to manipulate people and countires into unjust wars then anything else. The good stuff out of religion reads more like side effects caused by some nice naive people who didn't go along with the program.Religion is a bunch of outr-dated myths which serves no real porpose in today's time. Good people who are religious are just good people whoa re good by their own nature, it's not religion that makes them good, they are good by their own nature. Religion can both justify a good person and a bad person to comit their heinous acts. If religion waas good, only good things would came out of it, which is not the case.Today's religions like Christianity make as much sense as the religion of the ancient egypcians. and look how much credit people give them today.
-
The funny thing is, the so called "godless" isms of the 20th century were acted and beleived as if they were religion itself. Capitalism and communist were beleived with blind faith by people, as if it were religion. In fact,t hey were trusted upon the people and forced to accept as if religion. It was just another religion. You can't have a "godless" true conviction and yet act it out like you are in a mass and in crowds shouting the same. That's not a godless conviction, that's religion under another guise.
-
Maybe if you go to Sunday school you learn how to spell - ancient "Egyptians" you Cuntalla
-
Are you tell me you don't know what PI is? I had heard once that people with absolutly no inclination for mathematics were easy to convert into religious mysticism ideas, and i had never sen that in my life before until you showed up.And yes, the Bible is a myth. You know from whom I first heard that from? A PRIEST!
-
I also learned that people who use grammar as an excuse to attack others are people without a single idea of their own and use grammar as a diguise for their absolute lack of convictions and ideas to defend their convictions. Are you one of those?
-
when you call out their fake god.
what up with that? -
All myths. And just myths.
-
Dude, it's like when you say to a child that Santa Claus doesn't exist. They will cry about it all night long!
-
This movie makes not a lick of sense.
-
Oct 08, 2009 3:48:09 PM CDT
...I think we're saying the same thing. Call it whatever...
by flickapoo
...you want, but there is a fanatical "KILL THE PIG!!" urge in some or all people that consistently causes grief.And you have to admit that those people who smell wheat and have to take to their beds for three days are fucking annoying. And they're always trying to get you to cut wheat from your diet too. Leave me the fuck alone.
-
'I had never sen that' man you should pray to God that one day you will learn to write properly! You may write like a fool - and you may speak like a fool - but I won't let that fool me! You are a fool!. Wankero.
-
Was that Bruce Willis was dead the whole time or, Denzel was the 2nd coming of Jesus?
-
Spoken like a true believer of things that do not exist.
-
Denzel IS Jesus, and that Jesus was a black man, after all.
-
BE HONEST. YOUR FAVOURITE PRIEST ENDED UP BUGGERING YOU, DIDN'T HE?
-
It's not like kids go to Santa church every week, plus wed. And pray to him before every meal, and at night. And base decisions (major ones) in their lives, depending on what Santa told them that day.
I think, to a believer, the Santa analogy isn't gonna do anything but piss them off. They're not going to make the same connection we do because, get this, they actually believe god exists, so.
But if you just want to get them worked up, then Santa away. -
...post insane, vaguely middle easternish, Ahmadinejad style rants a while back...then you are a genius.If not, then the rain in Spain falls mainly on the insane.
-
I believe that you have fixed your spell checker eh? Sphinctolo
-
than he was in Training Day. Granted, he didn't have a sword, but still.
-
I'M LIKING YOU MORE AND MORE YOU TWAT.
-
I HAVE AN ITCH AND YOU'RE JUST THE GIRL TO SCRATCH IT!
-
Why not Chicken Soup for the Soul to restart humanity?Or, The Catcher in the Rye?
-
I tell you about my Padre - he was the sweetest guy in the town and all my uncles and pappas used to tease him and call him 'Contero' because he was a priest. My Uncle Javier used to say 'he's got one cock in his ass, the other in the ground' no one knew what this means. But we all end up laughing at Javier when he find Padre in his bed with his wife! My uncle tried shooting him - but God stepped in and crack my uncles heart in two!
-
...the three lit matches on the piles o' gunpowder that are AICN talkbacks. I love this place, for realz...
-
Oct 08, 2009 4:08:27 PM CDT
THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND HIS NAME IS THE WORDS
by total fucking destruction
and the words are TOTAL FUCKING DESTRUCTION.
-
Name one adaptation that lives up to its source material. They did a very good job with From Hell. If you view it totally independent from the Graphic Novel, it's an absolutely gorgeous film.
-
Yes I agree the origional with Michael Kane was great - I loved that kooky way he killed everyone. I hope they make another From Hell with Michael Kane
-
THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL STORY AND YOU WILL BE PLEASED TO KNOW THAT I MASTURBATED TWICE WHILST READING IT OVER AND OVER.
-
...you will get NO MORE GRAPES. NONE.
-
well then they should have just made a "jack the ripper" movie and wrote an og story instead of called the film an adaption when it bares so little resemblance to the source material. How you feel about the film is your own subjective business, but it's the worst adaption (not counting League of extraordinary gentlemen..which is sooo bad, it almost doesn't exist.
-
Just for the sake of argument, let's say that 5 major religions comprise the world's population.
And then let's say, again just for the sake of argument, that ONE of those 5 religions is "right".
That means 4/5 of the world's population believes the "wrong" thing. -
I can't really take that review seriously. Any potentially valid points are eclipsed by the inept writing.
-
religion has done both great and horrible things for the world. Anyone who says it's one or the other is a total moron.
-
lack all credibility
-
Judge Bender you have been judged.
You are a bender. -
Is he the villain?
-
Different faiths hold up different books. 'Mine is the one truth' thay all cry.
If the faithful all dropped their books and looked around at one another they would know - all men of faith are one and the same.
The meaning of life exists within this dojo. -
At least Keanu is kinda mixed like me, I can't relate to an old black guy pushing 60. When I watch I am legend it's only to see the mustang or The Dark Knight trailer. Unless there's a camaro in this fliq or a trailer for Dark Knight II/Batman III I don't care.
-
....he comes across Eric Bana who is trying to save a copy of the Dead Sea scrolls, and they battle to the death.
-
And 'eli' isn't his name it's a description of his lying ass, I.e. "HE LIE!" not eli. This is all a big guess btw. And personally I like From Hell; Johnny Depp + darkness= my ass watching it.
-
who gives a fuck.
Screw it, let's all write in Esperanto. -
...the book is Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard...and that it's true. After the credits there's a public service announcement from John Travolta.
-
When the Earth actually goes through an end of the world event, I hope The only literature left to be found is my comic book/graphic novel collection. Then there will be a world filled with sheep who believe Superman, Batman, Wolverine and Green Lantern were Gods from another age.
Hey, it's not that far off from Jesus' fish and wine trick or Moses' Water seperating trick. :P -
And worship Heath Ledger. ;)
-
We totally fucking missed you.
-
....the book is the Koran. That's why he's wearing sunglasses! He's a black Muslim. I was going to make a joke about it, then I realized, holy shit, that's what it actually is. So he takes off his trenchcoat at the end and he's wearing a suit and a bowtie.
-
Most everyone on here wants to know the twist. Personally, I'm not going to see the movie, but I am curious to know the twist. What ever happened to the invisio-text? Let US decide if we want to hear the twist or not...I'm getting REALLY sick of AintItCool reviewers deciding to nanny us by not giving us all the details. Yes, by all means don't just hang it out there so people could read it by accident, but at least give us the choice...this is a site for movie enthusiasts, not the general public. GET A LIFE GUYS AND GET BACK TO HOW THINGS USED TO BE DONE!
-
Listen closely. Especially the retards that have a problem with the verbiage and Bender's writing. He wrote it out simply so even the dimited could follow along. For instance, he left out the rampage of cannabalism going through the survivors due to lack of food. The fact that cannibalisms gives humans the "shakes" plays some importance is spotting the perpertrators of cannabalism. OH, and Eli isn't using a sword. It is a fucking modified machete. Answer me this too...how does a blind man shoot a bow and arrow?? Anyone? Anyone? You tell me now...does the story sound any better with specifics??
-
...turns out to be a single piece of paper containing Judge Bender's review for the movie, and the characters take turns reading it trying to figure out how the fucking thing ends.
-
I'm guessing that's the twist. and the Lord has been guiding him the entire time.
-
...you needn't bee so angry. You got a nice long talkback...it would have been worse to be ignored. What did you expect? Everyone to cup your balls gently and sing your praises with Gregorian chants? The nutsack is generally treated roughly around here.
-
you are one funny motherfucker
-
You're all gonna end up on an express train to hell for the comments in this talkback. You know that, right????
-
Your probably right.
Then we can piss people off telling them Batman doesn't exist. And then someone will find an old publicity photo of Micheal Keaton and it's end up being like the shroud of Turin.
That way both Atheist/agnostics and Batman fans can all face palm it up. -
And next year I'm going to the North pole to visit Santa Clause for my summer vacation. :P
-
...if there is a god I don't think he holds talkback against you...he knows we're all full of shit.He better, I'm pretty sure The AllMighty used to post here himself under the name DANNYGLOVERS_DICKBLOOD. That guy had infinite time on his hands.
-
FAGu FUGU...SURE you are? ;) :P
Don't worry about it. It's just my wierd name from the SIMPSONS. -
LMFAO
-
There's only 1 bible left IN THE ENTIRE WORLD?!?!?!?!? Bullshit! That means every church, library and hotel room on the planet got wiped out in the war.
-
Oct 08, 2009 7:32:58 PM CDT
"undeniably talented filmmakers"
by the_ad_wizard_who_came_up_with_this_one
...who made exactly one half watchable movie. Fuck you, Beaks, you're an imbecile.
-
The Bible, briefly summarized:
Old Testament: "If they're not Jewish, to hell with 'em." (Later amended to exclude Christians and Muslims from the hit list)
New Testament:
Gospels: "Why don't we all be nice to each other for a change?"
Acts, Letters, Epistles: "Remember Jesus? Okay, I'm *pretty* sure this is what he meant..."
Revelation: "Remember Jesus? Well, never mind his teachings...just be on the winning side when the action goes down!"
Unless you have a learned rabbi, priest or scholar handy, I don't recommend this book without supervision...not exactly a recipe for a balanced, post-apocalyptic comeback for humanity, especially if the nuclear war was caused by "religous differences"... -
Dudes, Judge B. is a genius. He calls them like he sees them. This movie is a total waste of celluloid or RED FILM or whatever. Trust in his Catholic honest ways! ha.
-
Fuck this religion causing nukes shit. The reasons leading to nuclear warfare in the retro-50s Fallout-universe would have been SO much better and make a helluva more sense. And the book of Eli should have been the 'Big Book of Science' instead so people could actually build stuff, perhaps?
Meh. Despite the negative review, I'll still catch it somehow. I liked From Hell and I love post-NUCLEAR apocalyptic stuff as well. Hopefully they'll add 'Love that Bomb' by Dr Strangelove and the Fallouts for the soundtrack at least for the prologue music. Make it so. -
If you like good writing first, might I suggest you check out some Gene Wolfe or M. John Harrison. The Book of the New Sun is probably the most wonderfully engaging science fiction book I've ever read due to its use of the unreliable narrator. Gene Wolfe is like the Faulkner of sci-fi. On the other hand, M. John Harrison's Light and its sequel, Nova Swing, are very lyrical science fiction, and his use of the language is masterful. I hate typical sci-fi/fantasy where the writing is pedestrian and is just a vehicle for a plot.
-
Dan Simmons's Hyperion books are masterfully written. The first one reads like the Canterbury Tales if every pilgrim had used a different genre to tell their tale.
I always check books out on amazon first where I can read the first few pages and decide whether I like the style. A book could have the most clever and hair-raising plot ever, but if I don't like the writer's style, I never make it through. -
are the masters for me
-
Great great scene. But after watching Don't Be A Menace it's almost impossible to watch without laughing through the entire film. http://sickpicks.blogspot.com/
-
You can choose to believe or not believe what you wish. I pass no judgment on peoples belief systems as long as they do not cause harm to others or themselves. Certainly all throughout history all belief systems - religious or otherwise such as: secular or humanist, atheist, scientific, agnostic, etc., have been prone to abuse, and misuse. As I said in the earlier post, religion is no different in that at times, weak willed men and women have corrupted and co-opted the basic message of good that most religions preach. But the basic core belief of goodness and community that is at the heart, is not affected. Religion is not needed to find that fellowship and promote goodness towards all - there are countless organizations that do the same. Being religious does not make you any better - or worse than anyone else. You either are a good person or you are not. But religions help people to aspire to goodness, makes it easier to try and pursue that path. No religion is perfect - nor will it ever be, so it can not always be good - because no person is perfect and religions are run by imperfect men and women. As for being outdated, that is your belief system and you are welcome to it. I will never try to convert anyone. Not my thing. But I believe what I choose to, and I am very happy with that.
-
so all his amazingly dumb fuck opinions are slathered in goat shit, the natural fragrance of Portugal.
-
Oct 08, 2009 9:26:54 PM CDT
Will he repeat "My man" about 40 times in the movie?
by takingscorpioscalls
-
drunk drunk drunk. But still, Hughes brothers fucking rule. Here's hoping this thing's better than this guy says. I don't care if it makes sense, which seems to be his main complaint. Just give me something weird and cool.
-
Jesus.
-
It would be great if people could just worship in private, meditatively explore their faith, or even particpate in organized religion to a charitable end ... instead of propping up charlatans and fanatics. That goes for every religion.
-
How the fuck do only 2 people know about the bible in this movie? That's just stupid storytelling. Fuck... now I don't want to see this anymore.
-
...thanks. "pedestrian writing just a vehicle for a plot" My main complaint with most SF. I'm off to the library.
-
The problem is when the filmmakers try to be too "deep". What is "deep" to one person can be -- and often is -- very shallow to the next person.
-
Judging by the trailer, I agree with the reviewer that the cinematography is weak. I'd also say that the art direction, set and costume design don't work very well, either.
-
He's a laugh riot!!!
Oh, and BringingSexyBack, a machete is not a sword because it has no hilt. A machete is a cleaver with a long blade.
This movie looks like crap. -
I did read the graphic novel, actually. I love Alan Moore. I also liked the movie, even though it's vastly different. There were certain visual moments that were nice homages to the graphic novel, like the civilians gathering around the victim as dawn approaches.
-
Oct 09, 2009 12:37:03 AM CDT
Wouldn't you be safer to believe in God, Heaven, Hell & The Bibl
by themovielover
So let's say there isn't a Heaven or a Hell, no God, the Bible is all BS, let's say that's all correct thinking. Well if it is? Fine. I'm wrong. nothing happens. But what if there IS a Heaven, a Hell, a God, the Bible IS true, and all you people are the ones who wrong. Who stands with the more to lose if the other is wrong.
If I'm wrong: nothing happens. you die. the end.
If you're wrong: you die unsaved. eternal damnation and suffering.
Some of you are pretty arrogant in your certainty if all us Bible-thumpers are right.
Also, I'd like to note that im against religion as a concept anyways. It's not about religion, it's about our individual relationships with God. Many many MANY people have distorted that thinking.
I'm just saying... -
and if you die and nothing happens and you realize that you wasted all your life believing in a fucking myth? come on man
-
and i know shit about chinese.
-
That sounds like ass. Especially when the premise of the movie is a nuclear war that resulted from religious disputes.All this religious bullshit sucks monkey balls. Welcome to the 21st century, folks.
-
The problem is not if a movie is religious. Two of my fave movies are Jesus movies, The Last Temptation Of Christ and Pasolini's The Gospel According To Mathew. Whatmakes me love those two religious movies is their sincerity and willingness to push notions of faith and religion. While the litle fact both were made by very talented directors helps.The problem of a movie like The Book Of Eli, so it seems, is that the basic premise makes absolutly no bloody sense. World is destroyed because of religious minded people, and then the movie is a quest of two guys who want to bring religion back to the world. Makes absolutly no fucking sense!And let me just finnaly coment on the funny irony that the bringer of religion ack to the world, Denzel's Eli, does so by kicking ass. I'm not sure that was Jesus' own idea when he set himself to preach the gospel, to spread the word through ass kicking. Am I alone in noticing the irony of that?
-
That's the oldest christianity appologism you got there. It even has a naem, it's called The Pascal Wager. And it's intellectual cowardice. Basically, by thatnotion, you are a believer for convinience, a just in cas escenario. Well, allow meto throw the ball to your camp now: if God does indeed exits and is the all knowing guy he's claime dto be, you think you can fool him with such tecnicalities? You think he will not know that you claim belief not because you really do but just because you want to be on th safe side? You think he will be impressed?Pascal's Wager type of faith is a type of false faith. It's skimmingon tecnicalities, but the problem is that you are dealing with a judge that cannot be fooled. Basically, you are fucked.In fact, the very best thing that could happen for a Pascal's Wager supporter is that god doesn't indeed exists, or elsethey are royally fucked. Somethign tellsme that if god really existed, he would rather like better an honest atheist then a religious faker and coward who speaks about and practices such intellectual cowardices as The Pascal Wager.
-
You read the comic after or before you watched the movie? And my problem is not so much that they deviated from the comic, but that they dumbed it down, and worst, replaced much of what was in the comic for dumb sily stuff. Of thewors,t the stupidity of the paranormal capabilities of the Alberdine's character. Which, in fact, was a real man who actually existed, and unlike the movie, after the Jack The Ripper case, he emigrated to USA, worked for the Pinkerton Agency, and finally set himself a private detective business and died a respected man of natural causes at old age. And he was never a drug addicted. Also, he was short and fat.
-
People who explore their faith in private... it's called schizophrenics. Admit it, religion is always bad, be it externalized or internalized.
-
Religion is no better at making people aspire to "do" goodness then anything else. It's only conscience that drives people to do goodness, and you don't need religion to have one. That's religion's oldest excuse for existing, and it's a bust as argumentation goes.And i have no beliefs. That's the point. I have convictions. Two different things. The first neeeds faith,the second demands reason. I side with reason, as i should.
-
Oct 09, 2009 2:43:31 AM CDT
Religion: a colectionof bronze age myths and rules of conduct
by asimovlives
that makes absolutly no sense in today's world.
-
We have Loonie Bin Laden and Georgie Dumb Bush Jr as just two of proof of that.
-
stops just short of acknowledging an actual divinity to the universe.
-
I'm guessing that Denzel's blind Eli is the *actual* blind Eli from the Bible and that the events of the film (and the preceding nuclear war that wiped out civilization) all take place thousands of years ago, in the year something-or-other B.C. The whole film acts as a warning to the 2009 audience that we're fast approaching another religious-fueled armageddon thanks to Denzel rescuing his holy book thousands of years ago, the stupid prick.
-
'Till now the only country that pushed that button was the US.
And oh yeah the bible will really save us all. Why does that sound so american. I'm so not gonna see this film. -
It's not hard to get its spelling right!
-
If any book going to survive a nuclear holocaust by virtue of sheer quantity, it'll be The Bible and maybe the works of Shakespeare.
-
Try it, you'll like it.
-
I'm inclined to agree with you on many points, but not to such an absolute. To each his own, live and let live is my motto.
-
...Denzel lost his eyesight by staring at a pair of tits too long because the Bible says that's a sin. So to pay for his sin he agrees to save the last Bible, and in the end God restores his eyesight and allows him to stare at Mila Kunis's titties.
-
Garth Ennis should sue a bitch!!
-
People who would commit evil ANYWAY use religion as the justification for their evil. Banning religion to stop humanity from doing terrible things to itself makes as much sense as banning football to stop humanity doing terrible things to itself.
We have enough evil in human nature itself for it not to need an origin. Ban religion, ban football, ban branding and alcohol and tobacco and nudity and Child's Play movies - ban fucking everything! In th4e end, people will still be doing evil things to one another. It's what we do.
It's not ALL we do, thank God (or insert whatever gets you through the night HERE), but it's a major part of what we do, and are.
And Andy_Dufresne's right. All you anti-theists are just congratulating yourselves on being smart enough not to fall for the con like all these dumb theists. That's what you think. And I hope you're all wrong, if only for your insufferably smug hypocrisy... -
Where's your only fall back postion of homophobia? Which is strange since you enjoy raping male goats.
-
That, or HARRY POTTER AND THE DEATHLY HALLOWS...
-
You know, absolutism like the sort you seem to thrive under. I mean: "Admit it, religion is always bad, be it externalized or internalized."
So, the forming of the Red Cross was a bad thing? Or of Christian Aid? The Samaritan's Purse Shoebox Appeal? All of which were created by people inspired by their faith in their religion.
Religion inspires more people to do GOOD, than it does to do evil. All the quoting of two twats who DO use it for evil is not going to change this. Religion is just a tool; it's HUMAN NATURE than causes us to do good or evil, and decrying religion will NOT change that. -
Oct 09, 2009 8:17:25 AM CDT
...I'm still laughing over the "bringing cheese and fruit...
by flickapoo
...to the boys in the village..." bit...
-
is that it states explicitly in the bible that raping goats is prohibited by god.
-
on the basis that Portuguese women look like fatter, hairier wookies I can see why he chooses to park his junk in the rectum of whichever animal isn't quick enough to escape.
-
buy up whatever stock you can in Duct Tape manufacturers. It's been leaked that assholelives has taken to taping his goat's back legs together to stop them kicking him. On the basis that he gets through about 200 goats per week, and needs 2 rolls of tape per goat, there's going to be a big quarterly profit to be made there.
-
And it looks like Segal style spead up camera to make Denzel look like he can fight.
-
Or not over there yet?
-
Wrong Talkback.
-
—but, the simplistic binary 'good/bad' dichotomy, lacks the intellectual and moral dimension the argument demands. It's way too easy to divide the concept of religion into a winner/loser comparison, especially the number of religions that encompass the 6000 plus cultures around the planet.Do you ever notice how someone like Dawkins never seems to deconstruct how religious ideas and traditions have worked with science to give possible solutions to societal ills? He only attacks mainstream institutions and uses the 'straw man' argument to knock them down. Bravo for him when he challenges those stodgy old crones, but for non-mainstream religion, it's too shallow, lacking the breadth of experience needed to honestly asses the results of certain religious practices. Superstition does have a value, especially when dealing with abstract concepts like mortality.
-
The RED camera is a digital cinema camera -- it shoots 4K resolution RAW files, so in some ways it's like a still camera but it's designed for motion. The company that makes them (RED) is owned by the guy behind Oakley sunglasses, who apparently has had a long-standing desire to design a camera. Peter Jackson was on-board early with the technology and Steven Soddenburg shot RED for Che.It's a very interesting company and philosophy and they tend to inspire a lot of passion among the film-making/camera industry, both good and bad. We've worked with the RED on a job here in the DC area and while the images are stunning it's a PIG to use hand-held!Some other interesting RED features are the ability to change almost anything that was done in the field in post -- filters, white balance, frame rate, all are electronic file attached to the RAW files, giving the ability of complete control throughout the production process. As long as the image is exposed, they can change the image at any point.RED is changing the way that we look at cameras, with Sony and Panasonic really now behind the curve-ball with their professional series cameras (excluding cameras like Genesis and the F35) as RED is offering the brains of the RED for under $20,000 and that gives you a full frame sensor and incredible quality -- the two big companies for cameras are still charging $30,000+ for most of their HD cameras that have a sensor size that's a fraction of the size. It's a very fascinating time for camera technology: they're very much computers with lenses nowadays and the world is shifting at that speed. Fun, but painful for those of us who work in the industry! You can check out RED's site at www.red.com and see a comparison of sensor sizes at the following: http://bit.ly/z7dSs.
-
But, I met quite a few. They are quite voluptuous and beautifully charming.If you're attacking AsimovLives, I think using 'ugly' Portuguese women as a tactic fails miserably.
-
with the RED. Did the production you worked on have any issues? If so, was it firmware based, or was it workflow based?
-
Though I agree with just about all your views on religion and religious institutions Asimov I can't help but chuckle at the irony of all this. What you have done here is preach at people, telling them just how absurd their beliefs really are (and make no mistake you are preaching). While I agree with that the fact that you have taken such a black and white, I'm right and you're wrong, stance on the subject shows just how narrow minded you are in your non-belief. In essence you have condemned, damned if you will, people of faith for believing in something you don't.
All that's left is for you to gather the rest of us non-believers and kill off the heretics. Of course there will be the inevitable dissention among us, leading to splintered groups with different views of the same basic thing. We'll probably get into some fights over that ... wiat isn't this an episode of South Park? -
Apart from the camera overheating (we were on a tar roof in the height of summer in the DC area) and it being a bear to work with hand-held we didn't have any issues. As for post-production, the joy of being the guys providing the crew and gear is that we just make sure the data is copied from the CF cards, hand the drive to the client and say farewell at the end of the day -- the spot looked good, that's all I know!
-
In fact, give it a shot to avoid nuclear holocaust to begin with. Makes sense to me.
-
Watch the trailer. The title is as subtle as the sunglasses. Denzel is blind and he has memorized the bible. He is the book himself. Get it? Book of Eli?
-
And the movie sounds like shit. If there was only one bible left on the planet, the only sane thing to do would be to burn it... Would solve a lot of problems that way :P
-
Well said.
-
How you explain humanism is very strong among atheists?
-
For those of you criticizing AsimovLives for his "narrow mindedness", I should point out that religion SHOULD be driven back into the closet because it is a concept that is unambiguously against personal freedom. In fact, religion and freedom are mutually exclusive concepts. Things we hold sacred (like the Constitution, unalienable rights, the rights of the individual over the majority, etc.) are incompatible with religion. According to religion, all ideas and man-made laws protecting freedom and individuality are secondary to the supposed desires of their mythical god. This is dangerous in the extreme and should be stamped out wherever and whenever it raises its head. And since religion must be interpreted by religious leaders (since god doesn't seem to be talking openly with mankind), then their beliefs are also subject to corruption (IN ADDITION to be based on a faulty, irrational premise in the first place). Having said that, people are fine to believe whatever they want SO LONG AS they don't try to force that belief on anyone else (especially in terms of government or laws). Secularism should be the ONLY basis for government. If the Jerry Fallwell's and Pat Robertson's of the world ran the country, we'd have every bit as repressive of a society as the Taliban countries.
-
and sure, there are a handful of Portuguese women that don't look like a car crash. Just most of them look worse than 2 day old vomit.
-
I'm criticising him for being a complete and utter cunt. Not the same thing
-
Sald,y religion does provide evildoaers with a great justification for wrong doing that you cannot get without it. The "God Wills It" is good enough to denounce the existence of religion, because it provides a justification that there wouldn't be if there if religion didn't existed. Yes, religion has been deturped by wrong-odoers to justify their insanity and destruction, but that's the thing, with no religion, there wouldn't be that justification, they would be on their own, and all responsability would fall square on their shoulders. and many wrong doers are too cowardly to act on merely their own motivation and devices, they need "justification". Religion provides that.And wors,t religion provides heaven as reward. People who do wrong and use religon as their excuse they COMPLETLY BELIEVE they will go to Heaven for their actions. they believe they will be rewarded the ultimate reward. Without religion, there would not be that certainty for them, that garantee they would get away scott free and even with the biggest paycheck in the universe. they would only had themselves and the earthly consequences of their acts, and most evildoers are too coward to face that.I'm sorry, for i cnanot se any good thing about relgion anymore. Not today, not in this age. It's a cultural cancer that still endures because of blind conservatism and the oportunism of too many to still stand to gain a lot from it. George W. Bush presidency is a clear proof of that.
-
Do people who don't believe in religion also believe we don't have a soul? a life-force? an essence?
My point is even if all the 'books' of religion are wrong - perhaps the underlying 'idea' beneath them all could be right. -
ps. Jarv is that your LIFEFORCE review over at MM - if so, I LIKE it!
-
I read the graphic novel first (and again since). There's really nothing like it. I agree the movie is very different and screws up all the characters. However, it still worked for me as a movie, judged in its own right. Even Alan Moore's version is based on one of the more outlandish Jack the Ripper conspiracy theories, so it's not like he was being true to history. He even throws in the "Mary lived" theory. I agree that the book is FAR superior to the movie, but I still think it's a cool movie and I enjoy watching it. I love the cinematography, and I like Depp's character, even though it's bizarre they took a real life historical figure and totally changed him.
-
Oct 09, 2009 12:56:11 PM CDT
"Religion inspires more people to do GOOD, than it does to do ev
by mattmanreturns
Religion has been one of the most destructive forces in the history of humanity.
-
What on earth makes you think that if religion had never existed people would not find another excuse for being evil shits. Mao, for example, loathed religion. You really are a complete cunt.
-
And can easily be refuted. Were the Soviets under Stalin religious? No. Did Stalin have millions of Armenians killed and persecuted any and all believers in religion? Perhaps 5 million. Justification for evil has never been the sole province of the religious minded. What you fail to account for - and what Spud and I have said repeatedly, is that religion is run by flawed men and women, just as any and all organizations, governments, institutions etc. are. A belief in God or a supernatural being is not contingent on belonging to a particular religion. No organization or institution, secular, scientific or religious is perfect. And never will be. I have no problem with your lack of belief. But when you strive so mightily to show your disdain for religion by ignoring simple facts such as: throughout human history atrocities have been committed by not only the non-religious but the vehemently anti-religious, then you do nothing but make a fool of yourself.
-
Please re-read the post I made earlier and get off your high religious horses. Religion does very little good in the world and instead causes a great deal of harm. Its belief system is irrational and encourages irrationality. It is incompatible with freedom and its primary purpose is to convert others to its belief system. People can believe anything they want, but religion tends to force others to their way of thinking...which is an unprovable, irrational position to begin with. While religion is not the sole source of harm or evil in the world, it is one of the largest. Religion has no supporting characteristics. It's unneeded. It's not needed for morals and it's not needed for peace or for people to do good in the world. What good is it? It has no purpose other than to force conformity with an imaginary all-powerful, all-encompassing imaginary being (and belief system) that trumps any type of personal sovereignty or freedom. Anything which so doggedly works against freedom and liberty is worthless at best and harmful at worst, and so should be discarded. Mankind will not move forward until it leaves its belief in the irrational behind.
-
The belief in a soul, any type of god or all-powerful supernatural being, or an afterlife are all storybook ideas...and nonsense! None of you believe in Santa Claus, but you do profess to believe in some divine being? How the hell do you reconcile those two ridiculous positions? You can be absolutely sure there's no Santa Claus (making you a Santa Claus atheist), but you're sure that there's at least a chance of there being a god (making you at least a god agnostic)? These are illogical positions! Faith is innately illogical and defies description. It's nonsense. It's an excuse to buy into bullshit and have it justified (lol).
-
SPOILERS!!!!!!
I'm not going to say the big twist, but there is one thing I want to know. In the Script Gary Oldman's character Carnagie doesn't die and isn't even hurt. However, a few things have changed in the film as seen on the trailer. In the script Gary Oldman is not present in the last attack on Denzel, but in the trailer he is. So my question is, does he die in the film? Sure, it would change things a bit, but it could still happen.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -
Good observation. Scratchmonkey yours kinda makes sense too. This movie doesn't attraqt me too much so I'd rather just know the twist. AICN SHOULD HAVE JUST PUT THE SPOILERS IN INVISITEXT AND LET US DECIDE IF WE WANT TO KNOW OR NOT.
-
Nazism. Stalinism. Soviet Union. Maoism. Papa Doc & Baby Doc Duvalier. Idi Amin Dada. Kim Il Sung. Genghis Khan. Khmer Rouge. Robert Mugabe. I will let you figure out what that list of men and movements meant. But here's a hint: They were not religious and all committed some of the greatest atrocities in the history of mankind. Religion is not needed for people to be good, and it certainly is not needed for people to commit evil. What it does provide, beyond a sense of fellowship and community and a belief in forces greater than ourselves, is a sense of hope. And for many people, that is all they have - hope. But that hope can bring them through dark times. You do not need to be religious to have hope, but being religious is all about hope and faith. Belief is about faith. Faith can not be proven. It can be shaken, it can be lost, it can be denounced, but it can not be proven. And that is why it is called faith, because you believe in something without having tangible 'proof', but having hope. I am a Giants fan. I had faith and hope that the Giants would knock off the Patriots in the Superbowl two years ago. The undefeated patriots. The highest scoring team in league history. The two touchdown favorite Patriots. Yeah, that is how hope and faith works. And even if my Giants had lost (which they most certainly did not), I still would not have lost my love for them - but I probably would have wished they had a better coach! You can not lay all the worlds problems at the feet of religion, when in the absence of such, the world has shown it can be a truly horrendous place.
-
...all the survivors are illiterate. This is followed by a public service announcement from Judd Hirsch encouraging you to teach your children to read.
-
I am not religious at all. But to say that religion does very little good in the world, I think, is to be too extreme and let your dislike for religion cloud your judgment. Just like everything else in the world that is a belief system, there is good and bad to it, abused like any other belief/ideas/system, etc. by those who look to justify their inexcusable actions with religion, etc.I absolutely agree with your previous post that religion as no part in the governing of a country, however, and that religion should not be "force-fed" down the mouths of others. But I can say that has never happened to me. And its' "primary purpose is to convert others to its belief system"...that sounds like what our two party system tries to do!
-
Damn, if Eli is compared to anything Pyun has done,(with the noted exception of sword and the sorcerer) then this movie is in serious trouble.Not even denzel's star power and acting chops will be able to save this from being a major epic flop.
-
..From Hell? it was a good effort from directors who were mostly known for gansta films like M2S.wether it was a commericial flop or Moore didn't approve of it..(then again, he's real anal about any movie based on his works.)they deserve props for braching out and not being pigeonholed as hood filmmakers.
-
just for a little factoid there.
-
And they have no hope at all - as long as the corpse of Al Davis is running the show!
-
I still love the trailer for this film- it really makes me hungry for a Fallout film (though if i eat it, it'll give me RADS... now THAT was a geeky joke!)
-
That was so incoherent I thought for a minute Harry had written it.
-
He doesn't realize that before any movie is color-timed (not colorized) it looks terrible. Plus this thing is rife with errors and lazy grammar. He's been waiting adecade to submit a review and this is what he came up with? Nice going, douchetard.
-
We're not babies...someone give up the twist so we can avoid seeing this piss-poor religion apologist movie.
-
You obviously didn't read my post. I specifically agreed that religion is not the cause of all evil in the world. However, you wrote: "You can not lay all the worlds problems at the feet of religion, when in the absence of such, the world has shown it can be a truly horrendous place." This is a completely false statement. Nowhere in history will you be able to point to anything that happened and say that religion would have prevented it from happening. Religion no more guarantees goodness than a lack of religion guarantees evil. Religion does NOTHING positive. Faith (belief without proof) is another definition for insanity and hope can be generated without faith. Faith is merely a crutch for the weak minded. Get some balls and get on with your life! Belief in an invisible man in the sky won't protect you from anything and it won't prevent bad things from happening. People should have faith in themselves, not imaginary beings.
-
I just joined this forum and I was wonering if there is a way of contacting other members? I've read the script, before the rewrties and wanted to know if the fate of Gary Oldman character has changed. I just want to contact a member who knows, but I don't know how. Any help would be appreciated.
-
The twist is everyone in the movie is actually just wandering around a nuclear test site in Nevada, hallucinating from the radiation. They wake up from the dream when a group of UFO tourists drive by in a minivan asking for directions to Area 51.
-
You and Asi suffer from the same problem: You both egregiously exaggerate and make such sweeping and patently and false statements - such easliy refuted false statements, that you undermine any legitimate arguments you might have made. To say that Religion does nothing positive, and to capitalize the 'nothing', well attempting to debate a point with someone who makes such a stupid statement is a total waste of time. Peace be with you.
-
Well, all those who have been helped by Christian Aid, the Samaritan's Purse Shoebox Appeal and countless other faith-led charity movements may have something to say about that. My local church sponsors and nurtures an orphanage in Eldoret, Kenya, in conjunction with the Good News Crusade. I've been privileged enough to be involved in their fund-raising efforts. And I can tell you, unequivocally, that they are doing what they do BECAUSE OF their faith. You want to argue that maybe they'd be just as decent human beings WITHOUT the concept of religion - maybe you're right, maybe you aren't. But the one thing we CAN say for certain - because those charity workers would tell you this themselves - is that they do what they do to help keep the orphanage in funds and equipment, because they are Christians and they're doing what they believe Christ would WANT them to do. So, they are doing something positive because of their religion.
You can sit splitting hairs on this all night long. But good does come from religion, like it or not. -
Might actually surprise some of you atheists - although I nominally call myself a Christian, I don't actually pray FOR help that much (my prayers, when I actually say any, tend to be the thank you for this, that and the other variety) and my attitude towards God tends to be: we have everything we need down here, we are everything we need for one another, and if you (God) have any sway over us AT ALL, please make us all understand that!
ninpobugei, I understand your point of view - yes, we need to believe in ourselves. But there is also an irrational need to thank something - or someONE - for all that is glorious and good and fun and beautiful in the world. Sometimes, you just want to say thanks, from the bottom of your heart, to the universe. There's no rational reason for this. But faith gives a lot of folks a place to direct that gratitude, when folks like yourself are just giving yourself hard-ass pep talks all the time.
Does it REALLY offend you so much that some people talk to an imaginary friend to make their burdens seem less heavy? I think this says more about your view on the world than it does about any argument on theism vs atheism... -
Oct 09, 2009 6:22:40 PM CDT
And "primary purpose is to convert others to its belief system".
by spud mcspud
FFS - Simon Cowell does that ALL THE TIME! Vote THIS person, vote THAT person... So do every director, every PR company, every ad exec, every billboard you see, every trailer, every TV advert, every radio jingle...
EVERYTHING that assaults our sense in one way or another through any branch of the media is trying to influence us to see things from their point of view. By influencing us to NOT be converted to a religious belief system, you yourself are trying to convert US to YOUR belief system - which is that religion does nothing positive! EVERYTHING we see and hear is trying to influence us! You CANNOT live without ANY external influence at all - not without being blind, deaf AND dumb... -
Most people wallow in their faith and their personal weakness. My problem is not in the belief, it's in the result of that belief...the initiative to force that belief on others and the fact that the belief renders humans less than they are. Everything attributed to god or divine intervention makes humans and their achievements less. It also gives people a reason to be weak..."I couldn't have done this without god's help". Total b.s. Finally, my biggest gripe is that I don't want religious people forcing their nonsense on me via government intervention. Religion never takes the "live and let live" approach. Religious people are THE most intolerant pieces of shit in the world. As for religion doing good, what good little you can attribute to religion can not make up for the centuries of evil done in the name of religion. Case in point, the Dark Ages was a time period that set humanity back more than 1000 years. Just think where we might be today had science not been vilified for all that time...and all that was lost during that time. It's unforgivable. Defend religion any way you want, but it's not needed and it does far more harm than good.
-
Once again, well said. We share a similar way of following our faith as well: Giving thanks rather than asking for.
-
Are still virgins. If you busted a nut in a bitch you wouldn't give a fuq whether or not the next person prayed. Yeah a lot of bad stuff happens, but that's cuz those evil folks are just looking to justify their evil ways. Most bad folks don't stroke their mustaches going muhahahahah im evil. If you want to blame evil on religion, fine, I'll blame the internet for your lack of real life socializing.
-
That, I just don't understand. It's like the idea of love. Love can't be measured; it can't be scientifically quantified, it can't be held, weighed, put in a pertid dish and viewed... The only way we can experience love is subjectively. We CAN measure its effects (what someone would do for love - and Meatloaf won't do THAT), we can examine the physiological responses when a person sees their partner, we can measure what happens to our bodies or minds on a date... But can we prove that love exists??
Scientifically? NO FUCKING WAY.
So, does that mean - according to your rigid objective scientific mindset - that love doesn't exist??
And as for "Religious people are THE most intolerant pieces of shit in the world" - aren't YOU being intolerant by not just allowing people to believe what they want to believe, but by trying to coerce them into realising that what they're doing is false - in short, you are trying to force them into seeing things YOUR way - which is EXACTLY what you're accusing religious people of doing!
YOUR ATHEISM IS YOUR RELIGION!!! -
I'm all for that, ninpo - on that we DO agree. Only a completely impartial government (in a religious sense) would be able to let rival religions flourish under the same country. I completely disagree with the idea of a theocracy - ESPECIALLY in the West. It don't seem to have worked out all that well in the Middle East...
-
There are more moderate Muslims than extremists. There are fewer charismatic evangelical post-millennial Rapturist fanatics than there are moderate Christians. There are fewer lunatic Scandinavian church-burning Satanist psychopaths than moderate Satanists.
The evil-doers are vastly, massively outnumbered in the world's religions by the folks who only want to make the world a little better for them having been in it, and their faith - whatever it may be - helps them to accomplish that aim. Why is that so wrong?
If the fanatics and lunatics DID outnumber the moderate faithful - trust me, the world would be a VERY different - and much more horrifying - place to be... -
It's strange - though I'm basically a Christian, I find myself follwing as many tenets of Buddhism as I do Christianity, because in the idea of being altruistic, both religions have much to offer advice-wise. I believe it was a Buddhist who once said "Be the change you want to see in the world", and that's a major thing I try to live up to - not just saying we need to change this or this, but to actually BE that change...
Nice to hear we follow the same path in how we live our faiths. ninpobugei makes a lot of sense in his points, and I DO agree that we need to rely on ourselves a lot more and stop hoping that God - or aliens, or our ancestors, or angels, or Superman - will come and save us from ourselves. But his world-view just seems so kind of nihilistic - the idea that we are all there is...
I like the idea that there's an intelligence, a will, behind Creation. (Nobody panic - I'm an evolutionist, honestly!!). And if nothing else, the way Jesus lived his life is more than enough inspiration for how I want to live mine - minus the Jew-baiting and eventual death at the hands of the authorities, of course... -
A good wank can release more than just tension. I firmly believe that if the G8 summits were crawling with hot sexy chicks willing to give it up to some dusty old politicos, the world may have a shot at peace after all. MAKE LUUUUUUUUURVE, NOT WAR!
In a very real sense, Megan Fox could help to save the world... -
There you go. An entire continent being ruined because of a stupid belief system. There isn't a point in trusting in a magic man in the sky. Charity doesn't have to be tied to false beliefs. Good actions don't have to be tied to false beliefs. Living a good life doesn't have to be tied to false beliefs. It is just stupid logic from people who believe in the illogical.
-
I am a Roman Catholic, but not since childhood have I reflexively followed every tenet. But I have never stopped believing. What I have never believed is in a vengeful or wrathful God. Just goes against all I have been taught and have observed. Faith is not always an easy thing. I had a high school friend who became a Christian Brother and he had a major crisis of faith several years ago. But ultimately, he found his faith again, and became stronger for the crisis. True faith can never be shaken by a non-believers words, but only by oneself.
-
I know I'm a little behind here, but it should be pointed out that Pascal assumes belief is a binary, zero-sum game. That's not true, though, since there are a multitude of religions and different levels of investment therein. So it actually fails to be a logical solution (even more than it did already) because by believing in one religion, you risk god's wrath if you picked the wrong one. So, even by it's own flawed logic, it fails.
-
You keep asking the same questions..."why is this so wrong?" All you have to do is actually READ my posts. Like a lawyer, you keep trying to reword the question seeking a different answer. I've given you NUMEROUS reasons why faith and religion are "wrong", as have several others on this board. You simply want to believe one thing (that religion is just fine and dandy). The truth (and historical facts) are that religion has done far more harm than good. So saying that faith is good for people or that religion in a few instances has some positive outcomes in NO WAY diminishes the negative aspects of religion...they are simply too numerous, too widespread, and too historically evident to be pushed aside.
-
Atheism isn't a religion. It's a lack of religion; a lack of belief in the myths of a divine being (ANY divine being). Religious people like to try to call it a religion so they can seem superior in some way, but it is religious people making the assertions who bear the brunt of proof. It's not up to me to prove YOUR assertions as false. YOU are saying the absurd with only faith to back you up, therefore the burden of proof is on you. Atheism is merely saying, "Sorry, I'm not buying it".
-
The point of Pascal's Wager that was brought up is that a religious person was saying that you should have some sort of faith in an afterlife just in case you're wrong about atheism. The point is, however, that this is a b.s. cover-your-ass position to take. If there was an omnipotent god, he/she/it would certainly understand that your "faith" or "belief" was a technicality and you'd be even worse off for trying to put one over on the almighty (lol).
-
You said, "What I have never believed is in a vengeful or wrathful God. Just goes against all I have been taught and have observed." I find this pretty humorous since the bible shows god to be a violent, short-tempered, vindictive fuck. Even Jesus is quoted as saying pretty much that his father was loving, but wrathful. Yeah, that's the kind of being I'm going to bow down to and worship (lol). And while we're on the subject of Jesus, I have to raise some eyebrows here and note that, historically speaking, there is no proof for the existence of Jesus outside the bible. Out of 40 philosophers and writers of the time, not 1 wrote a first-hand account of him. No historical Roman documents cover the supposed crucifixion, either. Josephus and Tacitus mention Christians in their writings, but they were third-person accounts. So NOT 1 single writer/philosopher documents the historical Jesus, nor do official government documents. So all of Christianity is completely bogus! Watch the documentary, The God Who Wasn't There for all the details...all the crucifixion/resurrection details were completely borrowed from legends from a few centuries earlier. Very interesting stuff, whether you have "faith" or not. http://www.thegodmovie.com/
-
Your quote, "Be the change you want to see in the world" is attributed to Gandhi (a Hindu)...who also, funny enough, said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-
I mean, it just has this vibe that says WATERWORLD all over again. BTW: I liked WATERWORLD-one of the few.
-
Spent an inordinate amount of time today trying to remember that one and who it was. Kept getting stuck on Dirac for some reason, thinking it was one of them early quantum guys.
-
...Denzel tells people that women were created from a man's rib, that an old man puts two of each animal on a big boat, that a magician used to turn water into wine, and that in the greatest magic trick of all time he comes back from the dead after 3 days? And this saves humanity and the world becomes a utopia? It's idiotic. People are free to believe in religion but it's ridiculous to believe that humanity needs ancient religions to survive.
-
From hell was, is and always will be a great underrated movie, ten times better than the crappy Burton-Depp piece of shit.
-
We're doing the same thing then - because you're refusing to see the central point that I keep trying to make:
RELIGION DOES NOT MAKE PEOPLE EVIL - RELIGION GIVES PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY EVIL JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
And if you banned religion, they'd torture and kill each other over football. Ban football - they'd fight over sneakers. Over skin colour. Over where they live. Over what TV programmes they watch.
Human nature is intrinsically good AND evil. Suggesting that religion is the root of all that is absolutely ridiculous. And as for the "more evil is done than good in the name of religion" argument, think on this - in the case of people such as Bush and Bin Laden, are they committing evil because they truly believe their god says so - or are they using the religion angle to justify military actions carried out for GEOPOLITICAL reasons, not religious ones?
More often than not, religion is used as a reasoning for evil people to do evil - those committing the most evil acts in the name of religion aren't ALL religious. That must be self-evident.
And as for the Gandhi vibe... I'm a Christian, but don't EVER lump me in with a backward redneck like Bush Jr, who is about as far from Christ as you can get. That's a dumb assertion for someone as supposedly smart as Gandhi was, because he's assuming all Christians are alike in what they believe, how they act and how they live their faith. Are YOU suggesting, by quoting this, that all Christians are the same? Because a progressive Christian who believes that the Apocalypse in Revelation is a metaphorical story stemming from an ecstatic vision is a very different creature from the illiterate witless cro-magnons that believe the Apocalypse is something we should start ASAP by turning the Middle East into a cinder. There ARE opposing factions in every religion, ninpobugei - that Gandhi quote suggests you don't agree, which (if that's true) shows you know less about organised religion than you think you do, or you are purposely ignoring the huge variance in behaviour between fundamentalism and moderation in world religions in order to bolster your own argument - itself a very unscientific thing to do.
Religion doesn't cause evil to be committed any more than football does. It just gives evil people a moral justification for their actions. Surely this is obvious by now?? -
And all those other sensationlist progs that decry religion (more specifically, Christianity) because of a lack of evidence:
You really believe the mighty Roman Empire was eventually Christianised by a few lying shephereds and fishermen, who eventually managed to con enough people into believing a myth about a Jesus Christ that they actually caused the largest empire on Earth at that time to change its state religion??
Hey, I got a bridge here for sale... -
I notice you didn't come back on that point - because the existence of love is the perfect example of something you cannot argue with the existence of, but that you cannot empircially and scientifically prove the existence of, either.
And, interestingly - according to Christianity - God is Love. Hmm... ;D -
Atheism is not a religion, and that's the very point of it. Failing to understand that, it's not the atheist fault, it's the person who cannot understand atheism and see it with their religion tinted glasses. It's a failure of the imagination.
-
The roman empire didn't turned christian overnight, it took CENTURIES.
-
Oct 10, 2009 8:19:56 AM CDT
Belief, aka, faith in something that cannot be proved is a weakn
by asimovlives
Worst, it's a folly. That way lies madness.
-
"That way lies madness" Well, some think your obsession with JJ has already led you to madness!
-
Always has been. I'm still shocked at the hate and contempt that Jesus Christ and God get on this site. I mean, seriously! And I'm just a regular dude that believes.
-
No, what drived me UPSET is the love for that horrible piece of shit hack and his latest movie. The madness lies with the idiots who mistake that fucking horrid piece of shit movie, and the hack who made it, as anything good. It's SANE to be upset by that shit.
-
Fuck god. How's that for you?
-
between disrespecting them and disrespecting religion. And the people who cannot see the difference are fools.
-
then you are an empty shell of a man without anything. Without anything!
-
Mankind deserves better.
-
One simple reason: Intolerance. Yes, I said it. Christianity spread across Europe due to its absolute intolerance of all other religions. It was the first religion of its day to do so. Every other religion was fairly tolerant of other religions and other gods. Christianity came along and said all other gods are false gods and if you don't believe in our god - the one true god - then you'll burn in eternal agony in hell. Christianity also had a good selling point - there was very little one needed to do to be a christian. Be baptized and "believe". No fancy pagan rituals to do or ceremonies to adhere to. Just believe and you, too, can go to eternal happiness in Heaven. Don't believe, and you burn. Simple as that. They also made it a point of their religion to convert others. So to be a good Christian, you had to convert others. The Pope stole a great deal of power, converted a few kings who in turn converted their entire country at the point of their sword. THAT is how Christianity spread...not because it really had anything to offer, but rather because it was horrifically intolerant and actually had LESS to offer (lol). It was simple osmosis.
-
Religion is for the weak. Those with the strength of mind to live their own life and have "faith" (confidence) in themselves don't need religion. Those that need a crutch to get through their day "need" religion to hold their hand. It's pathetic and I have no respect for anyone dumb enough to claim they are Christian (or Jew (other than by birth), Muslim, etc). As for the Christ hate, it's not hate I hold for the mythical figure, but derision. As for Gandhi, he was calling it like he saw it. As for lumping all Christians together, I do. Regardless of what they say and what specifics they adhere to, there is little difference between the Evangelicals and the more liberal/moderate Christians. Give them an inch and they all start wallowing in their nonsensical faith. Moderates tend to stay moderate only when times are good. Set them on hard times, however, and they tend to move more toward the dark side. It's just more proof that religion as a whole is a HUGE negative for mankind. The sooner we leave behind the belief in imaginary beings, the better off we'll all be. Again, as I noted earlier, religion is absolutely incompatible with freedom. There is nothing you can say against this because it's the absolute truth. Religious people place their god and their religious laws above all others, including the freedoms of their fellow man (see the religious right striving hard for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage...those intolerant FUCKS!). For that reason alone, it should be shunned.
-
Wow! You are incredibly disrespectful. I was just making a point. I feel sorry for you, and those that care about you.
-
And in many of your postings you bitch about religious intolerance. Look in the mirror, Chief.
-
Atheists aren't the intolerant ones. They're just finally standing up and saying, "Enough is enough". We've been silent and accepting for FAR too long while the religious ran roughshod over everyone's rights. You don't see atheists trying to create laws to spite the rights and freedoms of their fellow man (no gambling, no drugs, no prostitution, no pornography, no alcohol, etc., etc. ad nauseum). Think about it - atheists are for individual freedom while Christians are for repressiveness, persecution, intolerance, bigotry, conformity, etc. Yes, maybe not ALL Christians, but certainly most of them. Even the moderate Catholics want a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. Atheists aren't trying to convert others to their way of thinking so much as trying to UN-CONVERT the ignorant...or at the very least get them to stay the hell out of our lives!
-
So you were there? I mean, actually THERE, way back when religions were first forming? That's the only way you can truthfully assert that you know - for a FACT - that Christianity is the FIRST religion to have ever been intolerant. It also means that you believe that every relgion BEFORE Christianity was all "live and let live, maaaaaan" and that Christianity was the first religion to actively preach intolerance. You were actually THERE??
Because if you WEREN'T around back then - which you weren't - HOW exactly do you know this for a fact?
This sounds suspiciously like a sweeping generalisation (and a critically UNscientific one at that) to me...
My take on this is that somewhere in your life, you associated something negative with Christianity. I have no idea what it was or is. But it has turned you against Christianity and, by extension, all Christians. Which is fair enough - you're entitled to live how you want.
But...
You're telling Christians that THEY'RE stupid to believe what they believe, that they are idiots who preach intolerance and cruelty, that they are weak and unintelligent to have to "rely" in your words (actually, having a faith-based life enriches more than it supports, but that's a whole other thing) on a god that you state unequivocally does not exist...
In short, the most intolerant person on this TB is YOU.
Why? Because although the majority of Christians (yep, this is me generalising, based on my own experiences) are very prepared to NOT try to influence others into their way of thinking, that most Christians, after asking a non-religious friend to go to church with them (for example) would say "Fine, no problem, the invite's always there if you ever want it", people like YOU - intolerant hateful people like you - will always be there, to lay down THEIR way of seeing things, to try to not just influence but actually outright BAN people like me from being allowed our views...
You just don't see it, do you? You're more bigoted and intolerant than any Christian I've ever met - and you actually think that your self-proclaimed atheism means that it's fine ofr YOU to be intolerant, but not for anyone religious!
You're damned smart, and it's a pleasure debating with you - it's a shame I don't get conversations like this in RL very often. But you have to see yourself as you ARE - and you can't go calling a bunch of people intolerant, when you yourself are being intolerant of their beliefs and lifestyle!
There's a thing in the Bible about that - don't try to remove the speck from your friend's eye until you have reomved the log from your own... -
"Religious people place their god and their religious laws above all others, including the freedoms of their fellow man (see the religious right striving hard for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage...those intolerant FUCKS!)" - Again with the sweeping generalisations. By definition, the Christian section of Americans can't ALL be bigots and hatemongers, or else why isn't America riven with civil wars over stuff like gay marriage? You would find - if you actually talked to some Christians about how they feel, on some kind of large scale - that there are way more moderates who are happy for people to live how they want to, than fundamentalists who want everyone to do as they say! I'm one of those moderates myself - I believe that God loves us all, gays and straights alike, and if God creates us all equal, it's not up to us to be telling someone that they're wrong for not being straight. That said, I'm also a Christian who sees the Bible for what it REALLY is - a fallible history book, written over hundreds of years, that is an account of the birth of TWO religions - Judaism AND Christianity - and that it requires years (if not decades) to understand, and requires study, interpretation, an overview of the historical and socio-political background of the day. This ias why I vehemently disagree with these fucking lunatics who believe the Bible is the unexpurgated word of God (God didn't write it - there's the first clue that that idea is wrong) - and that creating a life around the Bible as an infallible guide to right and wrong just isn't practical. What the Bible IS, is a very good guide to living your life in a way that is respectful of and to others - and before you throw all the Old Testament fire-and-brimstone theology at me, even that serves as a great example of how NOT to live your life - and it needs to be interpreted on a person-by-person basis.
You really have to chill out, and let other people do their thing. I've been on other forums talking to some fucking lunatic Wiccans who truly believe that NASA have descrated their sacred Mother, the Moon, by hitting it with a big-ass rocket. That is truly the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard - that a lump of dull grey rock has a fucking SOUL - yet, as much as I want to spend days on end explaining to them why their beliefs are basically no different to a Cro-Magnon throwing bones at the moon trying to make it go away, they should be allowed to have their beliefs, and live by them if they wish to. Should they want a debate on the subject, I'm the man to give it to them - but I'd NEVER insist that they do NOT have a right to believe the moon is sentient and holy.
As stupid as that is.
Let the hatred go. It'll end up eating you up, in the end. -
And read about the fact that love CANNOT be proven to exist - even though it is arguably the most important emotion a human being can feel. You claim that if something cannot be scientifically proven, it does not exist? So, love does not exist in your dojo??
Why are you atheists such hateful, intolerant bigoted fundamentalists? For Dawkins' sake, man! Get a fucking grip!! -
This film sounds shit-tastic. Won't be getting my dollar, that is for sure...
-
Too bad it's brainwashed. I do, however, love your logic. You don't like what I have to say - which is historically accurate if you actually did some research - so I MUST be wrong and you MUST be right. Good Christian logic (lo). You can't see the forest for the trees...Christians and other religious fools spend their valuable time in life trying to get the government to do their dirty work for them...forcing rules and laws and ways of living on other people. These INCLUDE your "moderate" Christians. YOU are (maybe) the exception to the rule (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), but the FACTS are that religion has been - and continues to be evil. It needs to be left behind. There is no defending it because it is against human freedom. Period. End of story.
-
...long-time reader, first-time poster and all that, but I couldn't let this talkback slide without saying something.
AsimovLives, DrDirtyD...it's really cliche` to tell you both to get a clue, but, you know. For all your arguments with the posters who have been eloquent and clever with debunking your stance on the issue of religion, you've still proven yourselves to be on the wrong side of the duscussion.
DrDirtyD, you think it's funny to see people when their beliefs are attacked, but I've found that people like you have very little of import to stand on in their own lives, so yeah, you have my sympathies.
AsimovLives, you've already had your ass handed back to you many times over the course of this talkback, so I'll just add that it's almost a real shame you're not more openminded. I personally have seen God move my life in a positive direction over this past week. The problem with people like you is that you think you're too smart to believe in something bigger and smarter than yourselves, when you're asked, through religion, to understand that you were created by someone or something who deems you fit to be loved. -
What is it with the tired and old "religion is the root of all evil" garbage still being thrown as if there's even the slightest truth to an idea that backwards? Look, naysayers and nonbelievers...it's your right to believe such tripe, but how many times does it have to be said that people are responsible for the things they do? How can you still not see that, and that sometimes their deeds are merely dressed in the religion of their choosing? I have yet to come across anything in any house, tome, or person of true faith that would sign on for the acts of evil we've seen that God was supposed to have a hand in.
-
And before any of you open your flap pro or con on your beliefs, do a little research into the origins of your 'Holy' books and sacred myths. I have. Alot. One thing I know in my heart of hearts-because of the EVIDENCE, not what I was told as a child, is that
-
no supernatural being cam down and wrote squat. Nada. Zip. It was the byproduct of...MEN, nothing more, nothing less. Big supernatural events witnessed by hundreds DO NOT OCCUR. They did not occur 2,000 years ago (why did all this stuff only happen then??) and they do not occur now. If science cannot explain it now, it will soon. Want to know some real 'mystic' stuff? Look into some of the current theories on Quantum Physics. 'God' is alot more interesting and complex than illiterate farmers could have dreamed 2,000 year ago.
-
He is not 'smart' he is actually quite the opposite. That assessment has nothing to do with his hatred of religion, but rather with his inability to see beyond that hatred. A few days ago I posted this: "Nazism. Stalinism. Soviet Union. Maoism. Papa Doc & Baby Doc Duvalier. Idi Amin Dada. Kim Il Sung. Genghis Khan. Khmer Rouge. Robert Mugabe.
I will let you figure out what that list of men and movements meant. But here's a hint: They were not religious and all committed some of the greatest atrocities in the history of mankind." He never had a comeback. Because he can not refute that throughout history, in some of the most anti-religious environments known to man, the worlds greatest atrocities occurred. No one disputes that religion has been and can be perverted to do evil. But what also can not be disputed, is that in the absence of religion - as he is advocating (and as those above examples show), man has been even more inhumane. -
This movie is so pathetic in it's delivery and message. It does NOT deserve this kind of attention or opinions on the history, foundation or perpetuation of religious beliefs. Everyones opinions are valid in their own realities. However, one this is definitive in life and history.
Only the weak will follow and only the strong will endure.
The Hughes Brothers should be embarassed for this entire movie and its "wanting to deliver a message".
A good story teller only needs to tell a story. They have done nothing to deliver anything but a piece of worthless film that is hoping to ride on the coattails of Denzel's reputation. PERIOD. -
....those simpletons would have thought he was the Messiah, and there'd be an entire religion based on him today. They'd be called Blainians. and they'd go to Church once a week to listen to the preacher recite passages from the Book of Blaine. There'd be stained glass windows in that Church depicting Blaine levitating or removing a gold coin from behind a child's ear. And all those who refuse to believe in David Blaine would be told that their souls would burn in the hellfires for all eternity.
-
What makes you think that magicians and illusionists did not exist back then? Guess what? They did, and they actually existed thousands of years earlier. Charlatans and magicians can fool people for a while, but for 2000 years? Kinda blows up that theory of yers.
-
That Dark ages comment of yours made me laugh. You are very guilty of only seeing the world through the eyes of the west. Even if I believed that religion caused the dark ages - and I do not, that would still only be in Western Europe. The world was a big place even back then. You totally disregard the Eastern half of the world, let alone the Middle Eastern. Bit myopic there pally.
-
Fair enough - we'll agree to disagree, 'cos this one could run and run.
That said...
"You don't like what I have to say - which is historically accurate if you actually did some research - so I MUST be wrong and you MUST be right. Good Christian logic (lo)." - Well, since we know you can't actually 100% guarantee that Christianity was the first religion to be intolerant and to preach intolerance (in fairness, I think many of the pre-Christian Egyptian religions were fairly harsh against anyone who insulted their god-Pharoahs, for example), that's at least one example where you aren't categorically right. In fact, this certainty that you're right and I'm wrong - it's almost... I dunno... FANATICAL? Almost fundamentalist, which is the point at which your atheism begins to act like your own version of religion - along with the need to evangelise to all of us who disagree with you that you are right and we are wrong. The message may be different - but your way of delivering it? Exactly the same.
Oh, and then--
"the FACTS are that religion has been - and continues to be evil. It needs to be left behind. There is no defending it because it is against human freedom". Nope - the FACTS are htat HUMAN NATURE is essentially good AND evil, and both sides of human nature will continue to be perpetrated, supported by whatever justification the perpetrator deems fit to use to support their actions. In this case, religion is NOT the cause of evil - it is the justification evil men use to justify their evil deeds. This is not hard to understand - you're just refusing to see it because it then does NOT justify your obvious hatred of religion in general. You're picking points to support YOUR stance on religion - and ignoring equally valid points of view if they disagree with yours. Much like a fundamentalist, in fact...
ToadKillerDog made a good point with the list he gave earlier --
A few days ago I posted this: "Nazism. Stalinism. Soviet Union. Maoism. Papa Doc & Baby Doc Duvalier. Idi Amin Dada. Kim Il Sung. Genghis Khan. Khmer Rouge. Robert Mugabe.
I will let you figure out what that list of men and movements meant. But here's a hint: They were not religious and all committed some of the greatest atrocities in the history of mankind."
And then --
"No one disputes that religion has been and can be perverted to do evil. But what also can not be disputed, is that in the absence of religion - as he is advocating (and as those above examples show), man has been even more inhumane".
Sorry, but the TKD is right. If you eradicate religion, do you REALLY think it will eradicate evil? That's just dumb, friend. But if you DID eradicate religion, an awful lot of good works being done in its name even now are also gone. All to justify your hatred of an institution greater than you or myself.
-
Good point. The fact that we had the Dark Ages here in the West didn't exactly hamper the East, especially when you look at how advanced Chinese medicine was 5000 years ago. The evils perpetrated by the Catholics in the Middle Ages (I'm assuming by Dark Ages ninpobugei was mainly referring to stuff like the Inquisition, amongst other things) really only affected very specific areas of the Middle East and most of Europe, with the effects on America coming in later than the Middle Ages. There was plenty of evil before religion - over land, over tribal identity, over skin colour - and there'll be plenty after. Ninpo's argument just doesn't hold water - obliterating religion would NOT obliterate man's capacity for evil - and I think this says more about his personal rejection of religion as a whole, more than his argument about religion in general - which doesn't work, despite his repeated assertions to the contrary.
-
"There is no defending it because it is against human freedom. Period. End of story" - The only thing that seems to be against human freedom on here is you - and your intrinsic belief that you have the right to tell others that they are worng and that they shouldn't practice any form of religion. I'm not tryig to evangelise you here, or save your soul - but what you're doing, in telling me how wrong I am and how much religion has destroyed the world, is EXACTLY that - you're evangelising me on your beliefs, which are that religion is evil (amongst other things).
You're against human freedom, because you seek to impose your beliefs on others by denying them the right to have religion. You're as fundamentalist in your position as the psychos you're denigrating because they wage war in the name of religion. I'm the one saying I think everyone should be free to believe what they want to believe - YOU'RE the one talking about the eradication of an entire belief system for the good of humanity. You're WAY more against human freedom than I am.
Go in peace, and let go of your hate. It's just going to eat you up in the end - and why ruin your own life by hating something for all the wrong reasons anyway?? -
Here in the UK, Derren Brown - an avowed atheist became an illusionist when he saw through the stage-trickery of evangelists when he was younger, and still an evangelical Christian - has managed to piss off the entire UK TV watching population by using SFX for an illusion instead of old-fashioned sleight of hand. I'd agree with him - split-screen trickery isn't Derren Brown being smart, it's a parlour trick a smart 12 year old with a camcorder and decent PC editing software could do, and he's now looking a bit foolish because of it. So the thing about a magician fooling us for 2000+ years is a good point - that's a LONG time for so many smart politicians to be fooled by a bunch of poor shephereds and fishermen, and a disappearing body.
Plus, I'm not sure Chakraborty remembers the story of Moses vs the Egyptian court magician. Though Moses technically won, the Egymptian mage did manage to turn a staff into a snake - which Moses staff-turned-snake then ate, winning Moses the competition. Doesn't alter the fact - both men supposedly turned their staffs into snakes! Fantastic stuff - but if it WERE true, then the fundamentals of magick as we know it are older than religion itself... -
Do you jknow what "hypocrisy" means? At least i'm not the one who says that my imaginary friend is the only true imaginary friend, and that my imaginary friend is better then yours.
-
Love cannot be proved to exist?? WHAT KIND OF FUCKING NONSENSE IS THAT?? You got to be fucking kidding with me, dude!
-
Are you trying to tell me there has been elloquence in people trying to sell the idea of the existence of a non-existing deity without offering any real proof to support their claims? Are you kidding me? Maybe you are mistaking rethoric tricks with delivering real points about what really is and isn't.
-
No, of course it's not. christianity is not the first religion to be intolerant toward other religions.Christianity is not even the first religion to proclaim that only his was the right one and everything else is totalyl wrong, that would be Judaism.But Christianity was the first religion to ever gone to war against other religions to try to totally supress the ones that were native to a particular place and eradicated it completly.The religions of the past were henotheistics, in that it understood they there the true religion but acknowldege that others existed as well and that in their own land it was their god that ruled the land. Basically, religion operated in the place where it was worshipped and no place else. It put frontier. Christianity believed there was no frontiers and that it's the true religion EVERYWHERE. and that the foreign places need to be rescued of false beliefs by imposing christianity's followship where once was none, by force is necessary.So, yreah, there's pretty good reasons to be critical of the way christianity spread around the eorld and how disrespectful it is, IN NATURE, toward other relgions. In true, and in it's own nature, it's the most disrespectful religion there ever was. At least Islam acknowledges, IN WRITING, that the other religons of the book, Judaism, Christianism and Mandaeism, are also true religions (though imperfect in message, which was perfected through Islam, so they believe).
-
is when they try to prove the existence of their religion or their prefered god using the "personal experience". It's always good for a laugh when used as an argument.
-
He does tend to generalize, doesn't he?
-
Yeah, he does that a lot. He also just ignores questions he can't answer - see the answer above about love. I ask ninpobugei and AsimovLives to give me irrefutable scientific proof that love exists, and I get zero in return. That's because, like God, you can't scientifically prove that love DOES exist - there are countless ways to quantify the effects of love - if I jump in front of my fiancee to take a bullet, I do it because I love her and don't want her hurt - but to actually MEASURE it, to take some love and bottle it or examine it under a microscope - CANNOT BE DONE.
It'll be fun to watch ninpo and Asi twist and wriggle and try every semantic trick in the book to get round this inescapable truth, but they can't. LOVE CANNOT BE MEASURED SCIENTIFICALLY. But no-one would deny it exists, would they? We can all see the effects of it, can't we?
Ah, the mystery of faith... -
Here's another rebuttal:
"But Christianity was the first religion to ever gone to war against other religions to try to totally supress the ones that were native to a particular place and eradicated it completly" - You need to remember the same caveat I keep reminding ninpobugei of when he keeps on mentioning this:
"But Christianity was the first religion to ever gone to war against other religions to try to totally supress the ones that were native to a particular place and eradicated it completly THAT WE KNOW OF".
We only have recorded history to go on - and that is mostly Western from our perspective. If I can discount the idea that you are actually immortal and have lived since the beginning of time, how do you KNOW Christianity is the first religion to actively eradicate other religions? And that's IGNORING the fact that the expansion of Christianity was more political in nature than anything else - a country decides to take mover another country because they want more land, they want its supplies and food and minerals and whatever else is there. Taking their religion with them is just an added bonus - they really just wanted the land, in the same way that the coalition can go on about going after al-Quada as the reason we're at war in Iraq and Afghanistan, when the REAL reason is actually keeping and expanding Western oil interest.
So... HOW do you scientifically prove that love exists, again??
-
Wow, like a typical Christian you keep trying to turn everything back on me. You have no real argument to support anything you say. So let's go point by point: First off, some other poster on here tried to suggest that the LACK of religion has caused more harm than religion (naming off tyrants like Hitler to defend this position). To prove this position, you would need to point not to just secular villains, but to tyrants that were somehow made better due to religion. It's nearly impossible to do. By a WIDE margin, religion has caused far more harm and more people have been killed in the name of religion than all other secular wars combined. Sorry, but this is the truth and has been well documented. I don't care that most religions preach peace and they are twisted by evil people for their own ends. The actual, practical results of religion have been death, bigotry, intolerance, persecution, and genocide. It is little reassurance to people that have lost loved ones or been persecuted in the name of religion that the underlying message didn't support this. Ask most Muslims if they agree with the Jihadists and they will say they don't; that Islam is a religion of peace. But this matters very little when the practical result of the religion has been death and destruction on a truly massive scale, measure both in terms of lives and time. The practical results are what matter...and religion has proven itself to be the bane of humanity down through history. It controls and directs thought and action toward bigotry, hatred and intolerance for those not sharing their OPINION. Next point: Christianity DID spread due to its absolute intolerance of all other gods and religions. This is a historical fact. I also hold that it was one of the very first to do this on a wide scale within the west. I haven't studied all the prehistorical religions of Asia, Mesopotamia, etc., so certainly there were likely other intolerant religions down through prehistory. Let's not get held up on the minutia. The ORIGINAL POINT was that Christianity did not spread because there was something special about the religion or its message (it wasn't at all unique at the time PLUS the story of Jesus' death and resurrection were very clearly borrowed from other legends from a few centuries prior...to such an extent that it simply couldn't be coincidence). Christianity was the leading religion in its day that was intolerant of all others. There are numerous books that detail this heavily, both historically and even in fictional works, so prevalent was Christian intolerance. As kings were converted they then forced their people to share in the religion and often outlawed any other religion or religious practice. This is why Christianity spread across Europe so quickly. Next point: my supposed intolerance. I've got nothing on religious folk. However, to address the issue, I've said numerous times in earlier posts that I do not begrudge people their beliefs (people can believe whatever they want...I just don't respect those that feel they need the crutch of religion), but I absolutely draw the line at those same people feeling the need to force their OPINIONS and beliefs on others by way of government and laws. This is where religion is completely against personal freedom. Religion is a tool of control. Plain and simple. Religion was never created to allow people to simply live their lives. Instead, religion is all about control and conformity to a belief system that absolutely runs people's lives. This is incompatible with freedom. Next point: the scientific proof for the existence of love. Again, this is a completely preposterous argument. Various biological and biochemical brain activity associated with emotions (yes, love is an emotion) have been very clearly laid out in scientific texts. That's like asking how can you prove sadness or jealousy. You show a complete ignorance of science and psychological theory but making such a suggestion. But I won't hold that against you since, on the surface, it sounds like a fully valid argument (despite being wrong). And while we're on the subject, "faith" has also been shown via similar psychological theory, neurological & endocrinology-related studies. In fact, it's most often related to a type of psychosis. Faith is defined as belief without proof, which is another definition of insanity! So don't even begin down this path, since it's patently wrong and without a stronger foundation of science, you won't be able to speak intelligently on the subject (and I am not as fully versed on the subject as I would like to be...I'm simply pointing out that it's an invalid argument and don't fault you for not being aware of the scientific basis). I think that's all my points. If you feel there are other points I'm "ducking", feel free to let fly. I can keep this up for weeks.
-
Sorry I can't divide the long paragraph into smaller, easier to read portions. Does the AintItCool site take html?
-
The real enemy is what I call the "Utopian Impulse". This is the notion that because my belief system (religious, political or otherwise) will make the world better for all, and as these ends justify the means, whatever actions I take are acceptable, no matter how heinous. Catholics and Muslims have done this, but so have Nazis and Marxists. Even the US pursued such a course in Vietnam, in its frontier "Indian Wars" and (arguably) in Iraq.
Speaking strictly in a religious context, the actual "enemy" is fundamentalism. -
Type after every paragraph, with the spaces I inserted before and after the "p" eliminated.
-
that whole ends justifying the means thing is so retarded. i remember a quote once that said it's not what you're after but how you get there or something which made total sense.
-
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C.S. Lewis
"Absolute power corrupts even when exercised for humane purposes. The benevolent despot who sees himself as a shepherd of the people still demands from others the submissiveness of sheep." ~ Eric Hoffer -
"But Christianity was the first religion to ever gone to war against other religions to try to totally supress the ones that were native to a particular place and eradicated it completly." Complete and utter garbage.
-
And the final irony is... You just quoted C S Lewis - a man famed for his Christian theological treatises almost as much as for his Narnia books.
Have you ever read THE ABOLITION OF MAN, THE FOUR LOVES, A GRIEF OBSERVED, MERE CHRISTIANITY, SURPRISED BY JOY or THE PROBLEM OF PAIN? In fairness, as an atheist, you probably haven't oer ever will - but C S Lewis was an atheist until the age of 33, when he converted to Christianity and spent most of the rest of his life writing on or about faith. He argues for Christianity far more eloquently than I ever could, and speaks a great deal of common sense: take your first quote above, for example. A lot of intelligence for a Christian! -
You bastard! You've managed to put in two paragraphs what I've spent most of this TB trying to explain - that religion doesn't cause evil, fundamentalism does - and fundamentalism does - and atheism has as many lunatic fundamentalists as any religion.
Succinctly put. I salute you, sir! -
I hear that a lot, about Christianity being the first truly intolerant religion. Lately, I've heard it from several pagans, who not only seem to think their faith has been around the longest (so how do they know that??) but seem to think they were the first pacifists. How do we know there weren't bands of Danny Dyer-like thug druids running round doing people in??
Christianity is a relatively new religion in comparison - there must have been expansionist religious lunatics around before 33AD. How else did the Egyptian empire get so big?...
I still think something bad related to religion (or specifically Christianity) has happened to ninpobugei - and he's going to spend the rest of his life denouncing Christianity because of it... -
hehehehehe
-
Now that you've completely lost the debate (I've covered all of your arguments point by point), you are no longer able to intelligently speak against them and are now grasping for any way out, no matter how pathetic (such as shifting the whole discussion toward whether religion has harmed me personally in some way (lol)). Keep searching, man. Someday you'll realize the truth - that you've bet on the wrong horse. Your religion promotes human grief and suffering and no amount of finger pointing, justification, or blame passing matters one iota.It's rather typical that you're reduced to "Well, yeah, my religion has been a horror and terror throughout history, but gee whiz, there has to have been someone worse so I can feel better about myself."This is what normally happens when I debate religious people - there is no justification for the position they've taken so they fall back on tired platitudes, pat sayings, and finger pointing. Having said that, however, I do give you large props for even bothering to debate - most Christians and Jews can't and won't because they've never in their whole lives stopped to ponder and consider what it is they believe...they just swallow what's been handed to them their whole lives by family and clergy. Beyond that, their position is an embarrassment because historically the religion which they so vehemently support HAS been terribly harmful to humanity. As for the Dark Ages, you have only to read Carl Sagan to learn how much advancement religion cost us.
-
I went to Catholic school for 12 years. In the fifth grade you get trained as an alter boy (you "volunteer"). I was never specifically harmed by my school or religion (in the sense of being molested by a priest or something), I just woke up to the fact that it was all a made-up story - just like Santa Claus - and resented the fact that you were never allowed to question "faith". Faith just was and that's all there was to it. When I began questioning obvious untruths and contradictions in the bible - and had the audacity to proclaim it was all made up - boy, were my teachers shitty about it! God forbid (sic) I actually have an independent thought! There's those tolerant Christians again!As a kid, the fact that all this was a fairy tale was obvious. Today, it's even more obvious and I'm always shocked and pained speaking to grown adults who profess to believe in what is so obviously myths and stories. How do you even begin to reconcile all the contradictions and untruths making up the bible? Or the fact that there's no proof for this Jesus person outside of the Bible? That the stories of his supposed birth, miracles, and resurrection were all liberally borrowed from earlier legends attributed to a different god? How can the same people that are so sure there's no Santa Claus say with a straight face that they believe in an invisible man in the sky (and don't tell me you see god working in your daily life - that's pure wish fulfillment and wishful thinking).Basically, to remain a Christian, two things need to happen: you need to simply pass off all the inconsistencies, untruths, and lack of historical evidence and then you need to do as most Christians do and cherry-pick what you do and don't believe - with zero basis for that belief other than you just "think" this is the way things are supposed to be. I find that pathetic. No such ridiculous logic would ever be applied to any other situation in life. Oh, but the "mystery of faith" is allowed to be played fast and loose...simply for the sake of your delicate psychosis.
-
Oh, yeah, there are atheist fundamentalists running around in government making sure to take away your rights...just watch out, they're everywhere!Please, get rid of your martyr complex. Atheists merely want religious people to play in their own back yards and stay out of theirs. But religious people can't have that - they must convert everyone to their way of thinking by force of arms (just as it's been down through history). You have only to look at laws in the U.S. to see all the religious-related law we've had forced upon us by the moral busybodies (people you wouldn't even necessarily say are fundamentalists).Fundamentalism wouldn't be an issue if the ridiculous and intolerant belief system weren't there in the first place. I'm sorry, but religion is to blame. Fundamentalism is merely what religion already spouts taken to the literal limit. It isn't inseparable from religion, like some type of aberration, it's simply religion fully realized. Fundamentalism is the end-product of starting down this road. There's no avoiding it. One might suggest that fundamentalists are merely religious alcoholics, but I submit instead that religion promotes fanaticism because there is zero dissent allowed. It makes outrageous proclamations and then we wonder why people take it to the extreme. To take the alcoholic analogy further, it would be the same if every bar insisted that you drink and keep drinking. That's religion. Force enough people to keep drinking and you end up with alcoholics. Even Christianity can't get its shit together - look at the numerous splinter groups...dozens of religions all proclaiming essentially the same thing but nipping at each other over the minutia (usually in order to make money...which is why the gospel of St. Thomas was deliberately omitted from the bible). And this is the nonsense you people choose to follow.
-
You called AsimovLives' quote "complete and utter garbage". Well, you're wrong. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue. The quote is correct. I recently finished a number of history books, including one by, of all people, Isaac Asimov ("Asimov's Chronology of the World"). It's not in any way slanted for or against religion, it's merely a history of the world from billions of years ago to WWII. Very interesting (but long). One consistency is the war that spread across Europe and England over Christianity. It's very nearly all-consuming. Christianity survived and flourished because it was completely and utterly intolerant of all other religions. This later lead into the horror of the inquisition. Even the Arthurian legends are positively rife with the intolerance of Christianity over paganism. So to deny this FACT is to deny history itself.
-
The ironic thing is that you've completely missed how I personally feel about church and state. I completely DISAGREE with any government that seeks to govern via religious rules - such as making it illegal for gay people to marriage on a Biblical basis, for example, or saying that it is illegal to break one of the Ten Commandments.
As for MY martyr complex... the way you're speaking about religion, it's as if you think the world in run by religious governments! WHERE do you LIVE?? It can't be America - where church and state ARE separate, despite the Republican and the religious Right's efforts to the contrary - or the UK, where our so-called government is too tragic to have any coherent policies about anything. But as far as I'm aware, it's not a legal requirement in the West to be religious... so where's the government interference you're kind of alluding to? We live in countries where church and state are completely separate, so - where do you get thisw "Church = persecution" idea?
Oh, wait. You went to Catholic school.
I know all about the Magdalene Sisters. I know all about the kind of things that happened - and still happen, in some cases - to people in Catholic orphanages, and schools. I know that the current Pope had sympathies with the Nazis - and all those stories of the Vatican helping to move Nazi gold after the war. Yada yada yada. What you DON'T understand - and semeingly never will - is that just because some people in a religion use it for evil purposes, it DOESN'T make the religion itself evil.
My brother was mugged by three black guys back in the 1990s. Do I infer from that that all black men are muggers? That's exactly the same kind of thinking as you are applying to religion - and it's just as bigoted, hateful and unintelligent.
So you went to school surrounded by intolerant twats who completely, intentionally ignored what the Bible says in order to just use bits to support their twisted agenda - yeah, like you've NEVER seen an atheist take a decent institution and twist it for their own ends. Fucking hell...
Ninpobugei, your hatred of Christianity stems from the time you spent with a bunch of intolerant arseholes. You're too narrow-minded to understand that you can't judge an entire people, movement or religion by the behaviour of a few (as demonstrated by my example) so you assume ALL Christians, and by extension ALL religious people, behave like those few arseholes you encountered in the formative years of your life. This became a crusade, in which you have to convince EVERYONE that religion is completely wrong - because you encountered some arseholes who were ignoring what "their" religion says in order to have a place to practice their cruelties and perversions.
This is like saying the guys who blew up the Twin Towers were REAL Muslims. It's stupid, it's dangerous, and what's worse - YOU KNOW you're wrong to tar everyone with the same brush, but your resentment against those people who taught you all those years ago is so great, so deep, that you'll press on regardless KNOWING that you're wrong.
And as for "Fundamentalism is merely what religion already spouts taken to the literal limit. It isn't inseparable from religion, like some type of aberration, it's simply religion fully realized" - I'd point you back to ToadKillerDog's list of non-religious psychopaths and say hey - even the atheists have psychos, and they are completely fundamentalist in their desire to carry out their ruthless agendas to the end of the last dissident. Pretending otherwise is just you cherry-picking bits of what's actualy going on to support your argument - which, ironically, is EXACTLY what you're accusing me - and all religious people - of doing. That's hypocrisy, however you look at it.
I've never insisted that my religion be forced on others. I've never met a Christian who DOES want to force their religion on others. Most of the churches I've ever attended tend to be of the opinion that they are an open house - if they help someone out, and the person ask them why they'd do that, the church would reply that it is because they are Christians and that's part of their religion. They will then ask the person if they can talk to them about their religion - and if the person isn't interested, they're free to leave and NOT listen to what the Christian has to say.
What's repressive and evil about that? How is that in any way oppressing that person's personal freedom??
As for "I submit instead that religion promotes fanaticism because there is zero dissent allowed" - well, there is plenty of healthy discussion at the churches I used to attend on various parts of the Bible. People have differeing ideas on what a passge from the bible means, and they get together to discuss what they think and where they are coming from. Doesn't sound like "zero dissent" to me.
And of course to have "zero dissent" you have to have a cast-iron manifesto that is CANNOT be misunderstood, and that everyone in that movement agrees on and is in no doubt as to what it means. Which means that when you say "look at the numerous splinter groups...dozens of religions all proclaiming essentially the same thing but nipping at each other over the minutiae" you yourself are allowing that there is NO "zero dissent" - because these splinter groups" you speak of ARE dissenting with each other!
So you don't actually know what you really feel about religion, because everything you see comes from the shit experience you had at Catholic school. Which, as I explained, is as uninformed, as unintelligent and as bigoted as saying that if my brother's first experience of being mugged is by three black guys, then ALL muggers must be black. Stupid, and dangerous, way to think... -
As an atheist, where do you stanbd on stuff like astral travel, Out Of Body Experiences (OOBEs), near-death experiences etc? Because if you come down on the Dr-Susan-Blackmore-it's-all-in-the-mind-there's-no-afterlife side of the argument, you REALLY need to read THE SCHOLE EXPERIMENT, and many other books I could recommend that would provide weeks of stuff for you to debunk.
A great man once said, "there are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy"...
Readers Talkback
User Login
Top Talkbacks
- SPACE 2099!! -- 98 total posts 98 posts
- OK. So Harrison Ford Isn't In Talks For The New BLADE RUNNER. But... -- 138 total posts 94 posts
- Check out Colin Farrell in these new pics from SEVEN PSYCHOPATHS -- 91 total posts 91 posts
- Nice And Splattery MACHETE KILLS Promo Art!! -- 87 total posts 85 posts
- Thursday Is Sweeps Day Eight!! Yack Here About OFFICE, ROCK, UP, WIPEOUT, PERSON, FINDER, MENTALIST, IDOL, BANG, ROB, ANATOMY, JERSEY & More!! -- 113 total posts 81 posts
- Kurtzman And Boborci Producing An Adaptation Of Anne Rice's Lestat Novel TALE OF THE BODY THIEF?? -- 338 total posts 74 posts
- In That New 300 Movie Spin-Off Thingy, Xerxes And Artemisia Will Be Played By... -- 77 total posts 66 posts
- Quint travels to Barsoom and visits the John Carter set!!! -- 65 total posts 65 posts
- WETTER HOTTER AMERICAN SUMMER? -- 61 total posts 59 posts
- Crom! Grant The Behind the Scenes Pics of the Day revenge! And if you do not listen, den to Hell witchu! -- 55 total posts 55 posts