On the surface, JENNIFER'S BODY appears to be little more than a snarky hybrid of HEATHERS and BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER - and if that's all you want out of it, I'm fairly certain you'll walk away satisfied. To a certain extent, this is screenwriter Diablo Cody's tribute to the teen-skewing horror-comedies of the 1980s. It's MY BEST FRIEND IS A SUCCUBUS starring the most lusted-after actress on the planet as the titular dude-consuming demon. Pretty straight sell, right? Not exactly. At least, not the way director Karyn Kusama has attacked it. Though the film's intended audience might not initially see it, JENNIFER'S BODY is actually a rather fucked up body horror film about young female sexual dread. It's about the yearning for, and fear of, desirability - as well as a deliciously grotesque warning to teenage boys that they aren't even close to being in the driver's seat when it comes to matters carnal. In other words, it's a reminder of how horror can address difficult issues that might prove silly or off-putting in a straight drama. It's also a major step forward for Kusama, who has survived the tumult of AEON FLUX to deliver a full-fledged genre film that delivers the tawdry goods while reminding us of the smart, gritty promise of her debut feature, GIRLFIGHT. A couple of weeks prior to the Toronto Film Festival (where JENNIFER'S BODY debuted as a "Midnight Madness" selection), I met up with Kusama for coffee to discuss... well, a whole host of topics. In the below interview, we talk about her love of horror, what she learned from working with John Sayles, how she copes with the inevitable compromise that comes with making a studio movie, why Michael Ritchie is one of the most underrated directors of the 1970s, and much, much more (including that scene where Megan Fox and Amanda Seyfried make out). I had a blast chatting with Kusama: she's incredibly candid about her experiences in Hollywood thus far and just flat-out knows her movies. When I started recording, we were discussing the difficulty of previewing movies at Comic Con.

Mr. Beaks: When you're doing a presentation at Comic Con, you're reduced to showing money shots. You're reduced to showing the funniest scene or the scariest scene or the bloodiest scene that's not too far into the third act. You're just showing the most sensational elements of your movie without giving viewers a sense of the tone. I think you can wreck a movie that way.

Karyn Kusama: That's the challenge. For Comic Con, I knew that we had to show something that was long enough to give a real sense of the story, but also the tonal whiplash of the movie. I think if you don't express that, you don't express the movie. So we did our best. I hope that was the right fifteen minutes.

Beaks: That's tough, because what most appealed to me about the film was the tone. Under the surface, it's a really creepy, disturbing film. I mean, it's right there in the title, but this is a body horror film.

Kusama: It is. Thank you. It's what we were going for. Diablo and I talked about this right at the beginning: girls can be terrifying creatures. There's a lot about femininity and femaleness that is just intrinsically scary and potentially traumatic. The idea that Jennifer's seductive, sexual powers are a huge part of her arsenal was interesting. There is certainly a long tradition of horror movies that depend on using a girl's sexuality as way to suggest her vulnerabilities. Whereas with this movie, I think it's a little more complicated: the teeth are out. There were a lot of layers to the ideas in the script that functioned on that level for me. It just felt different. It felt like a really cool reversal.

Beaks: There have been several classic, female-centric body horror films: ROSEMARY'S BABY, THE EXORCIST, CARRIE, and, more recently, Marina de Van's IN MY SKIN. Did you look to those for inspiration?

Kusama: You know, we didn't really need to because those are movie's we're very versed in. For me, I just wanted for people to feel the fun of those movies, so I would occasionally have a movie night at my apartment. One night, it was CARRIE; one night it was HALLOWEEN; one night it was A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET; one night it was SHAUN OF THE DEAD; one night it was EVIL DEAD 2. I was just trying to get everyone together and watch those movies again - and also remind ourselves how much we laugh while watching those movies. That's a component to the story and the horror. In looking at CARRIE again, I forgot how much of a twisted sense of humor De Palma was wielding with the audience, and how that makes you feel uncomfortable for a while about what his relationship, as the filmmaker, is to Carrie. So by the time she's horrific, she's also heroic - and it feels like she's also spat back into the face of the filmmaker. So I feel it was worth it to go back and see how humor can be a destabilizing mechanism even as it's making you feel a little bit lulled and comfortable with what you're watching.

Beaks: That's one of the many things I love about CARRIE, and De Palma movies in general: you don't really trust the filmmaker. And that's what I liked about JENNIFER'S BODY: though I'd read the script before watching the movie, I felt a certain amount of distress as to where you were taking the material. And, honestly, I think this was me responding as a male to something that is foreign to me. The anxiety that accompanies a young woman's sexual awakening is something we're not exactly privy to. So, in a way, this movie could be scarier for guys than it is for girls.

Kusama: That's so interesting. I hope so. I love that idea. I feel like what gets lost in the semi-political conversations that people have about horror movies and gender is that some of the greatest horror movies, whether they're an old school, traditional approach to a ghost story or a nameless, faceless slasher movie... I think we forget how many of those movies have female leads. They are anchored by women. And I think there is something to the idea that boys and girls alike are going to those movies not just to feel scared, but to feel a female experience. I think we forget the power of that. We assume on the surface that we're watching a girl, and it therefore makes us feel more vulnerable because we feel that she's vulnerable and exposed. But it also gives us access to the ability to feel those things, which I really like.

Beaks: I like how explicit [JENNIFER'S BODY] is about this.

Kusama: Yes, this is really explicit. The text is sort of the subtext in this movie. (Laughs)

Beaks: But the idea of Needy being the late bloomer and Jennifer being more sexually advanced, and Needy wanting that while also feeling the need to defend Jennifer's non-existent honor to Adam Brody and his bandmates... there's a sort of schizophrenic push-pull here.

Kusama: (Laughs) That scene in the bar is interesting to me because it's really the only glimpse we get of their relationship that is positive. We get to see that they have this joking rapport and a secret sisters kind of relationship. But we also get to see Jennifer encourage Needy, and we get to see Needy defend Jennifer, and you realize there is this warped sense of ownership they both feel over each other. It's a tricky scene because it's also populated with a lot of jokes and a lot of story. That's also the last time their relationship will ever be normal. We plunge into pretty dark territory after that.

Beaks: I want to get back, though, to Needy defending an idea that doesn't even exist. Is this something young women feel toward friends who have maybe experienced more than they have?

Kusama: I think in the case of this relationship, and certainly in some of the female relationships I've been in or have been witness to, there is a desire to protect the past and sort of enshrine it as something very special - perhaps as a way to protect oneself from the realization that you're moving on, and somehow you're not the same people anymore. I do think girls put each other up on a rapidly shifting set of pedestals and then tear each other down. I think men do that to girls, too, but I think girls do it in a way that is more subtle and cutting because it has more to do with social hierarchies. Maybe this is just my view of the American high school experience. I pray it's different in France, but I doubt it. (Laughs) I just think there's always going to be Queen Bees and Alpha Females and Shrinking Violets. That's another thing I really liked about this script: something about high school and the way we categorize ourselves and label each other was itself sort of horrifying. So it sort of fed into the conceits of the narrative somehow. She sort of targets the big jock, and she targets the goth kid, and she targets the nerd. If you ever felt like you were one of those people, there's something real about that to me.

Beaks: It's a predatory thing. And that actually gets back to why I think this might be scarier for guys - especially for the nerdy guy who's never really been preyed upon but has always fantasized about having that girl. This film is saying... well, obviously, "Be careful what you wish for"--

Kusama: (Laughing) Yes!

Beaks: But in a way the guys are also being punished. They're treating her as a prize. And while she's allowed herself to be objectified, they're still complicit in this objectification.

Kusama: In some ways. But I hope I depicted those characters with enough humanity that you understand while you're watching it that you actually should like all of those guys. They're not bad guys. They're not just cliched, date-raping football players. So in a way, I'm hoping it makes Jennifer's pathology a little more clear - which is that she's losing her humanity over the course of the movie. That's something we're seeing. I know we're talking about what is ultimately a wacky genre picture, but I tried to come at it with that sense of caring about all of the characters. I think if you're affectionate toward your characters, it's both scarier and more effective when something bad happens to them. It sticks with you a little longer. That's the hope, at least.

Beaks: That's what sets it apart from something like HEATHERS. That was very satiric and very arch, and I think [JENNIFER'S BODY] is, in a lot ways, not. And yes we're talking about a wacky genre picture, but horror has always been a wonderful way of addressing what's going on in society.

Kusama: It's so rich. It has so much to say and actually gets to say it. People keep asking me, "Why are you drawn to horror?" It's like, "Well, horror actually delivers." (Laughs) There is something viscerally true about the best horror films. Oftentimes, I think it reveals something ugly about our world that is just too devastating to face in any sort of real way. We need horror to assert that teenagers can basically be incredibly thoughtless and cruel, or sometimes a man's ambition will lead him to do something so horrible that you end up impregnated by Satan himself. (Laughs) There's truth to this. There's a truth that we hook into, and that carries us through the more outrageous aspects of the narrative. But it's that truth that's the horror. And I felt like with this movie, there was something about the cruelty between girls and the cruelty of a society that oftentimes encourages a girl to objectify herself. That's going to lead to something monstrous.

Beaks: It's funny that the two genres in which we can address these things are comedy and horror. You do it in drama, and hardly anyone's interested.

Kusama: I think so much about the things I want to do, and I love it when I can watch an adult movie that has the pleasure of watching adults behave like adults. But the risk you take in getting those movies made - if they ever get made - is how small your audience potentially is. I'm not saying that's a reason not to make those movies, but the good genre movies actually create the dialogue everyone's dying to have about real things. And those are discussions that can't be had if your movie never gets seen or financed. In a funny way, it's that thing of finding your meaning through the backdoor of the plot. Again, if a movie is smart but has a sort of identifiable... I don't want to say genre tag, but I feel like we are working in a time when people want to know, "Okay, what am I making here? Is it an action movie? Is it a horror movie? Is it a thriller? Is it a romantic comedy?" So when you find those movies that seem to exist within those frameworks, it's just thrilling.

Beaks: Someone who did that so well early in his career, and who mentored you as well, is John Sayles.

Kusama: Sure.

Beaks: Did your experience working with John help prepare you for working in genre?

Kusama: Absolutely. I keep forgetting to mention THE HOWLING as an incredibly important movie to me directly in relation to [JENNIFER'S BODY]. It's very funny, it's very smart, and it's really nicely performed. For a story as outrageous as it is, there are really nice touches in the filmmaking. It's just a really smart, entertaining movie that had some commentary on the self-obsessed "Me Generation" Northern California '70s. I loved it at the time, and I love it still.

And John taught me so much about how to balance the urge for seriousness with the desire for pulpy entertainment. While he was making LONE STAR, he was writing a movie for Rob Reiner, APOLLO 13 for Ron Howard, and a movie James Cameron never made called BROTHER TERMITE. So here he was at the time working with the top A-list directors that choose to be in the Hollywood studio system... he was writing for them and making this strange western murder-mystery. I was able to witness him at a moment of all the stars aligning for him creatively. All systems were go. It's such an incredible gift to get to know someone working at that level. At the same time, right after he finished LONE STAR, he started working with Guillermo del Toro on MIMIC. Of course, MIMIC became its own nightmare for Guillermo, but the process of [Sayles] working with someone like Guillermo, who was at the beginning of his career and had just made this interesting vampire movie... it's just interesting to see. There's a lot to learn from people who are devoted to quality genre. And those are the movies that really influenced me as a kid growing up. Movies like THE WIZARD OF OZ, KING KONG, FANTASIA... those movies hit me like a brick. They connected with me. I think that's for a reason. I wasn't watching THE 400 BLOWS when I was six; I was watching KING KONG. (Laughs) I love the art films as well. I need them and derive a lot of sustenance from them, but the urge to entertain is there for me.

Beaks: For many cinephiles, genre films are the building blocks that allow us to appreciate more nuanced or experimental types of movies as we get older. So I guess it makes sense that you go through that process again as a filmmaker.

Kusama: I think you have to walk through the world looking at movies without judgment. You have to know what you like and what you don't like, but understand when things are memorable or an achievement. For example, I may not love a lot of things about very flawed movies, but if there was one thing I loved, I have to acknowledge that something has been achieved; I have to stop and say, "Okay, what was that?" Just today my husband and I were talking about ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK. When I was young, that movie was so important to me - specifically because it's supposed to be a post-apocalyptic New York City and they shot it in my hometown of St. Louis. They were like, "We don't even need to do anything! The set dressing is all here!" (Laughs) I was always so proud. "Home town for hire! Post-apocalyptic city!" But just the choice of an iconic black mesh shirt and an eyepatch: that's, in my opinion, as visually arresting and important as the story itself. That there is attention to detail in even the pulpiest of movies is what allows me to keep an open mind with everything I watch. Particularly now, coming from the filmmaker's side and having been through a studio experience twice, I can say that I can watch movies now with a differently trained eye. I can now see, "Ah, that was the moment where the studio said, 'We can't take it any longer, so you have to cut away!' - even though something really important is now on the cutting room floor." I'm now much more aware that the movies that end up in theaters are co-built by the money and the filmmaking teams. Not always, but oftentimes.

Beaks: Was this the case on JENNIFER'S BODY? Were there any major battles?

Kusama: There were lively discussions. Spirited conversations. But I think the meaning of the movie, and most of the uniqueness of the movie is intact. Luckily in this case, the movie was so strange that they decided to buy it. They knew Diablo was writing it; they knew she was going to be an executive producer. So they sort of signed on. And that really helped the process because they were always behind it in that way. I think some stuff makes them understandably more uncomfortable than other stuff, but it's okay. Having had a different experience with AEON FLUX, which was much more a sad story of mutilation, I can say now that I recognize that when a movie has a sort of craziness when you're watching it, that probably didn't happen by accident. I'm sure you see this all the time now, and are trained yourself to see when a movie has had its insides ripped out.

Beaks: Constantly. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was at The New Beverly watching THE 'BURBS, and--

Kusama: Joe Dante was screening that with SMILE, right?

Beaks: Yes.

Kusama: Had you seen SMILE before?

Beaks: I had, but it had been a while.

Kusama: It's one of my top ten favorite movies. It's so beautiful.

Beaks: It reminds me how great Michael Ritchie was in the 1970s. The final shot is perfection.

Kusama: He's an unsung hero to me. Between PRIME CUT, THE CANDIDATE, DOWNHILL RACER, SMILE, THE BAD NEWS BEARS... and FLETCH!

Beaks: And DIGGSTOWN.

Kusama: Which I've heard is kind of interesting. I must admit I've never seen it.

Beaks: It's so much fun. It's a boxing/con artist film. It's a little like Walter Hill's HARD TIMES.

Kusama: Or even STUDENT BODIES. He didn't take the credit for it, but that's a crazy movie. I love it. But anyway...

Beaks: (Laughs) But watching the ending of THE 'BURBS, I could sense the input of the studio. I know now there was a different ending shot, but it left me wondering wondering if there's a way to incorporate the studios' notes while still maintaining the thematic integrity of the film.

Kusama: And what was the answer in that case?

Beaks: I think Dante actually pulled it off. But that's a rare case. And maybe it was just one or two notes. But when you get buried in notes, and you finally say to yourself while you're making the movie, "I can't possibly make the film I came in here to make", how do you keep showing up to work every day?

Kusama: I think that's why a lot of directors have to walk away from the process of making your own movie. Suddenly, it's not their movie and they know it, and they can't claim it. I understand reaching that point. I used to watch movies with an intellectually open mind, but now I watch with an open heart because I accept that certain things feel like compromises in a film - and oftentimes that's because they probably are. (Laughs) Particularly when there are storylines that just drop off or don't connect, or tonal things that don't make any sense, or a scene that exists only because the actors are naked or there's an action sequence. I pay attention that that now, and look at it with a little more mercy.

Beaks: I do the same as well, especially since I moved to Los Angeles from New York. It's funny: I have my New York way of watching movies, and my L.A. way of watching movies.

Kusama: (Laughing) Me, too! That's really funny. I used to watch with a more critical mind.

Beaks: More deconstructive?

Kusama: Yeah.

Beaks: Like you actually wanted to get in the guts of a movie and pull it apart and figure out what the filmmaker's trying to say?

Kusama: Absolutely. And now you realize the meaning to be derived is sort of miraculous in and of itself - if you can derive any meaning. And some times those meanings are a bit confused.

Beaks: Do you still like movies as much as you did when you started?

Kusama: (Pause) I do. That's a very good question, though. I'm often asked by young, aspiring filmmakers, "What's your advice?" And my advice is always "You have to love the process." Making movies is very difficult, and the final product doesn't always live up to the time and effort and emotional sweat that flies off your body. So you just have to love getting to the finish line - and sometimes what's there at the finish line isn't what you wanted. I do find that I watch movies less now, mostly because I have less time. I have a child, and I find that that's seriously put a dent into my ability to watch movies the way I used to. (Laughs) I really look forward to the time when I can him to the movies and say, "Son, we're going to go see a movie called WALL-E today." Or "We're going to check out THE WIZARD OF OZ!" I'm really looking forward to the moments where I am able to share that experience. Because I know when I started watching movies as a little person, it was like being struck by lightning. It's still a vibrant, meaningful art form to me - and a form of entertainment. What an odd collision. I often complain about there not being enough good movies out there, but LET THE RIGHT ONE IN was recently out. That's an incredible movie. THE HURT LOCKER was incredible. I'm going to see DISTRICT 9 tonight, and I have high hopes for that. There's great stuff out there. It's just, again, being merciful. (Laughs)

Beaks: Or reducing expectations.

Kusama: How about you? As someone who has to watch movies for a living, do you find yourself burned out by it ever?

Beaks: Oh, all the time. But then you stumble across some smart little indie movie or that odd studio film that somehow fell out of the system with something on it's mind, and your faith is somewhat restored. Actually, I'm usually more impressed when it's a studio movie with something subversive smuggled in. There aren't many directors who know how to do that anymore.

Kusama: Growing up, I watched a lot of Don Siegel and Sam Fuller. They were lifers. It was like they signed on for a chain gang, and they occasionally pulled gems out of a burlap sack.

(Brief interruption as our waitress checks in on us.) Beaks: Getting back to JENNIFER'S BODY, one thing that really helped me connect to the film was your visual style. It's not glossy. I think some people might go into this movie expecting something with the sheen of a Joss Whedon show, but this has that... I hate to say "indie film look", but it certainly doesn't feel "studio".

Kusama: It's a taste thing for me, but I just think this is more aesthetically pleasing. People are always asking me, "What do you want to do?" or "What don't you want to do?" And I always say, "I want to do almost everything except romantic comedies." And, in talking with you, I realized the reason for this is that those films are always so boring looking. This script... it was pretty clear to me that there was an opportunity to do something moody and atmospheric and not bright and glossy, or sleek and slick. When I read a script, I immediately go to whatever instinctually comes up for me. And with [JENNIFER'S BODY], it was thinking of Needy in cardigans and being surrounded by macrame blankets. (Laughs) I saw the dualities between Needy and Jennifer: Jennifer could be living in this all pink world, and there could always be this fog hanging on the horizon and this sense of magic to their worlds. Even though they're meant to be unsophisticated girls in an unsophisticated town, I thought that this was an opportunity to do something a little more sophisticated with what we're looking at. So many movies throw away the biggest opportunity they have, which is to tell their story visually. Where else do we get to point a camera and keep using it as a tool for almost two hours? It's an incredible challenge. I mean, I could stare at Mark Rothko paintings for hours on end, so I guess I feel that loving the basic fundamentals of color and texture and tactile material qualities of painting... I just hope I can translate that to film.

Beaks: I was glad that you did a split-diopter shot.

Kusama: We did a couple, yeah. That was my shout-out to De Palma. You know what's really amazing? For some people, it's like, "Ugh! You're doing your shout-out to De Palma," but for others it's like, "What was going on with that shot?" It's not a commonly used feature anymore.

Beaks: Which is a shame. I want to talk about your two leads. Obviously, Amanda Seyfried is a bit glamorous for the role of Needy. Some would say it's the old ugly-ing up the pretty girl syndrome.

Kusama: Which is just a reflection of the twisted world we live in. There was a resistance to casting that actor to be how she was written, which was mousy and a girl you just didn't notice. I mean, if Amanda Seyfried walked in right now, you'd just be like, "Wow!" She's crazy beautiful. But she's beautiful in a different way than Megan is beautiful, so if you wanted to, you could wrap your mind around the idea that Needy has decided that Jennifer's beauty trumps her own; she doesn't see her own reflection because, like the rest of the town, she's too busy looking at Jennifer. It's one of the insane facts of trying to make a movie in Hollywood that it's so important everyone be absurdly attractive. (Laughs)

Beaks: And there's an inescapable contradiction of Megan being an actress who, as an image, is objectified. I don't mean to criticize her too harshly, but she's complicit in this. Watching her at Comic Con during the JONAH HEX panel, she knew exactly what she was doing. No matter how crazy the questions got, she was in complete control of the situation. She invites this lust, but then when some guy gets up to tell her how hot she is, she makes him feel like complete shit about it.

Kusama: Yeah, it's cruel.

Beaks: It's deserved, I guess. But for all of that, she's still perceived as just a hot girl.

Kusama: When I came on to the movie, she was already cast. That was the one role that was locked in, so I just crossed my fingers. (Laughs) I remember we met her at The Cat & Fiddle. I downed a couple of pints of beer, and immediately could tell that she was thoughtful, smart, maybe a little shy, and maybe sort of uncomfortable by the thing that was just starting to happen to her. I immediately had a lot of sympathy for her - which I think is the thing about Jennifer, and her performance of Jennifer, that is really crucial. She can play the alpha female, but there is a moment where we have to see her as more of a girl. I remember when we talked about the moment where she approaches the guys in the band. I said, "I would love it if you could be... not so smooth." And she really understood that; she could really get that. And with the sacrifice scene, I just told her, "Megan, it's really important that you be incredibly frightened for this girl at this moment despite what's going on with the dialogue." And she said, "Oh, it would be irresponsible of me to be anything but terrified and fighting for my life." And I was like, "Ah! You are my kind of girl!" She understands that there is a responsibility in committing to a role and being a role model. I'm sure there is a part of her that doesn't want to do that, but in playing this part, she understood that we can't have a throwaway scene or make a joke out of what has happened to this character. Even if the whole movie is populated with jokes, this isn't funny. And that's a real credit to her intelligence. I was probably really nervous before I met her about whether she could act. I hadn't seen TRANSFORMERS. I had no interest; it just isn't my kind of movie. But as raw as she is, she has a lot of thoughtfulness to the process. She was great. Really great.

Beaks: And then staging the scene.

Kusama: Yes.

Beaks: The kiss.

Kusama: (Laughs) Oh, I thought you were going to say the sacrifice! That's funny.

Beaks: (Laughing) That scene is very impressive, too, but this scene strikes me as very...

Kusama: (Still laughing) No, no. It is a centerpiece.

Beaks: Yes. It's shot in extreme close-up. And I assume that's them kissing in that shot.

Kusama: Oh, yeah. That's them. And I will say that it was a very difficult shot to get because it is such an extreme close-up. It is a real technical achievement! (Laughs)

Beaks: There's something very important happening in that scene thematically, but it is also very titillating and exploitative. In shooting it, how did you capture that heat without compromising the integrity of the scene?

Kusama: That's a good question. Whenever something thematically meaningful is in front of us, we always take a risk that we are exploiting it - because if it's meaningful, it stands to be exploited. We don't want to exploit things that are meaningless. It's not worth our time, I guess. That's why the porn industry is so successful; they exploit this physical act between two people. I knew that this was going to be titilating for some people in the audience perhaps, but I always felt like this scene had to function in two ways: it had to tell us something deeper about the relationship that we hadn't really understood at that point between Needy and Jennifer; we had to understand that there was a romantic, sexual component to that relationship that had a lot of currency for those characters. That was part of the glue that kept them together: this sort of safe, sexualized girlhood relationship. And that's a common thing, whether it's between girls and boys, girls and girls or boys and boys. It happens, and oftentimes just goes unspoken. So what I was hoping with this scene was a moment of, "Oh, this is another component to this totally toxic relationship I'm having." But also I felt that it had to be erotic. I mean, if it wasn't sexy, what's the point? I'm so tired of watching women being forced to play sexy with other women, or play a romantic or sexualized relationship with another woman, and not commit to it. I'm so sick of watching little pecks on the cheek and little nuzzles here and there. I want the same stuff everyone else does. I want to see that there is some exposure and vulnerability. I want fucking tongue! (Laughs) I want to know that this is real! And in talking to the girls about it, I said, "Amanda, Megan, I know this is a big day. And I'm sorry that you might feel uncomfortable about this. But the point of this is that it is sexy. It is real. That's what makes it a little frightening and a little dangerous." And in the context of where this scene is showing up... people can tell me until they're blue in the face that I'm exploiting this moment, but a lot of my female friends watch that scene, and they say, "That's the scariest scene in the movie." Because they don't know what's going to happen. You don't know who's paying who, you don't know when the teeth are going to come out. I feel like I did that scene my way, and I'm happy with it. And if guys come along for the ride and try to trivialize it as something made purely for them, that's the risk I take making movies. But I ultimately feel that that scene has a function in the storytelling and in the tonal weirdness of the movie. It is really sexy, but I also feel like it's anxiety-provoking. I don't watch that scene and get lost in a sort of porno glaze. (Laughs) As titillated as I feel, I'm also on the edge of my seat. But, look, in the process of making this movie, no one on the studio side has ever said to cut a frame from that uncomfortably long scene. (Laughs) Die-hard feminist that I am, I would've been comfortable with that close-up [of the kiss] being the teaser trailer for the movie. I think it's incredibly powerful. I don't think it's being made just for male pleasure; I think it's being made for people's pleasure. I just think it's beautiful to look at. (Laughs) Maybe I'm crazy.

Beaks: No, that's fair. SLUMBER PARTY MASSACRE is a feminist slasher movie, but they sold it with that great shot of the power drill between the legs.

Kusama: Exactly. I think also when you deal with horror, the politics are just necessarily a little more complicated; they inherently hold a lot more gray area. To me, it's a richer conversation that's being had between the audience and the filmmaker. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me and just not like the movie, but that's a different conversation.

Beaks: We're two years removed from JUNO, and Diablo's style has now been mimicked and relentlessly parodied. Are you at all worried that people are going to obsess on this with your film?

Kusama: I knew it was going to be an issue while we were making the movie and while we were cutting it. There are going to be people who hear her name and then decide to attach a very sort of specific label to the style they're perceiving in her writing. But I actually feel this film is quite a bit different from JUNO. It's thematically different, but also gaudier and stylistically out there. The brilliance of what Jason [Reitman] did with JUNO was to play it naturalistically and not really muddy the waters with too much editorial, fancy-pants filmmaking. (Laughs) And I think for me with JENNIFER'S BODY, I knew I had to approach it differently. I couldn't have these characters deliver these lines and experience demonic possession straight, so I had to come at it from my own point of view. There were moments in the editing process where we realized there were certain jokes that were too funny. They almost imbalanced a bigger trajectory that the film was on, so we had to cut jokes that worked the best sometimes. In that regard, I think we had to, in terms of Diablo's voice, make changes that maybe none of us were totally happy with. But I also think that's because her voice is specific and tricky. And I'm sure any filmmaker who is working with a script that has so much linguistic richness is going to have to assess their success or failure in communicating that richness - and maybe I didn't always succeed. So I had to pull back in certain places and give the audience some room. I never really felt like her script was over-stylized. I just felt like it had a craziness that was distinctive and refreshing. I felt like the same person who could say "These things are like smart bombs. Point them in the right direction, and shit gets real", is the same person who can imagine your best friend appearing in your kitchen looking like she's been gang raped, and those two characters having a silent standoff. There's a power in that scene that I'd never really seen before. A weirdness. I feel that there is a weirdness in her dialogue and a weirdness in her storytelling abilities. She's just plain talented. I'm very fascinated by the online internet chatter about Diablo. I'm so disappointed by the complete lack of substantial dialogue about her work.

Beaks: Substantial dialogue is tough to come by on the internet.

Kusama: I know, but it's just fascinating the number of times I've read someone call Diablo a "whore". And you wonder why she writes a script about an attractive woman who eats men for lunch. Makes perfect sense to me.

Beaks: This is true. Write about any attractive woman online, and your comments section will soon be filled with the most disgusting kind of objectification. And they'll make it as freakishly sexual as possible just to elicit a response. I'm quite sure these people are not...

Kusama: Happy people.

Beaks: Or dating much.

Kusama: Dating "much". (Laughs)

Beaks: I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But when I read that stuff, I'm glad Diablo's out there doing what she's doing.

Kusama: I see it with Megan, too. It's as if people who put themselves out there are somehow deserving of this hate thrown at them. It's just odd to me. If you don't want to look, don't look. If you don't want to listen, don't listen. There's no need to create this new dictionary of hatred.

Beaks: I think it bothers a lot of these guys that they own their sexuality. They're not just going to sit there and look pretty.

Kusama: There's a discomfort people feel.

Beaks: And then they have to run them down to feel better.

Kusama: It's so weird.

Beaks: You're obviously hoping JENNIFER'S BODY is a hit, but--

Kusama: Are you kidding? I'm hoping it's a monster hit.

Beaks: But are you hoping it's a hit so you can go off and make something a little more personal, or do you want more freedom to do something bigger within this system?

Kusama: There are movies I want to make that if I could just rustle up $5 million, I would make a very truthful expression of where I'm coming from as an adult in this fucked-up world. And I really want to do that. I really want to make those movies. Honestly, it's as hard - if not harder - to find $5 million for an independent movie than to find $50 million at a studio. So I'm really struggling with it. Sometimes, the movies I want to make are bigger movies: they have more scale or just more necessity for resources. But oftentimes I think movies that have really hit me hard are just great ideas beautifully executed for as little money as possible. I'm happy to make those movies in that way, too. I have an appetite for all kinds of movies; it's just a question of whether this business has an appetite for me. (Laughs) I just have to figure out as I go what the next thing is going to be. I've only read a couple of studio things that I really like, and, ironically, they definitely tended toward horror. And that's just because I think that when a good writer gets their hands on a really cool idea and beautifully executes it on the page, I just see the possibilities. Horror activates that for me - and sci-fi to a degree. But another part of me would love love to make a movie where I could be prepping it in four weeks, shooting it in four weeks, cutting it in twelve, and having another movie under my belt that's a little smaller and a little weirder.

Beaks: When you're dealing with the studios, do you feel like they're bringing certain material to you because you're a woman?

Kusama: I'm not sure if it's because I'm a woman. One thing I'm struck by is that, from GIRLFIGHT to AEON FLUX to JENNIFER'S BODY, people were often saying, "We can't quite figure you out." That's not necessarily a good thing, that there's a sense of "Who are you?" or "What are you trying to do?". I'm like, "Well, these last three movies were attempts at doing something I wanted to do, and the next three or six or ten, I hope, will also be an expression of what I want to do." I'm not looking to tell the same story over and over again. Granted, when I think about a lot of filmmakers, they've made huge careers out of doing that, and some of those careers are more than admirable. It's not that I disagree with that game plan, it's just that I'm looking to challenge myself. For some people, trying out variations on a theme is the challenge; for me, it's re-starting the conversation each time. There's a lot that's been on my mind. I could go into horror again and go into dark territory again and be comfortable. But something I haven't done that could be interesting is something a bit more buoyant or a bit more joyful, something with a little more love of life - because I actually feel that! (Laughs) I've got to figure out what my next move is, but I'm open to figuring it out.

Beaks: It sucks that these things depend on how the last one does.

Kusama: I know, and I think about how some of my favorite filmmakers have had these moments where you don't know what they're going to do next, or you don't know how to completely label them. Whether it's a Peter Weir or a Roman Polanski or a Michael Ritchie or a Kathryn Bigelow, I never know what's going to come next. Sometimes it'll be a hit and sometimes it'll be a miss, but it's most likely going to be very different from the last one. Those kinds of careers really interest me. So maybe that's part of my instinct toward doing something completely different from JENNIFER'S BODY. But I also think a lot of times, when you're looking at scripts from the studio, it's the genre pictures that stand out. Because they occupy a place in our imagination already, so you can already have taken that leap to saying, "Okay, I can imagine people watching this movie." And having certain expectations of them of this movie - whether I foil them or deliver on them, that already creates a relationship with an audience, you know? It's interesting.

Earlier this week, we learned that Kusama is developing - what else? - a body horror movie with Rachel Weisz. Here's hoping she gets to really let it rip this time. JENNIFER'S BODY is currently in theaters nationwide. Faithfully submitted, Mr. Beaks