Cool News
THE HOBBIT can now officially move forward!
Hey folks, Harry here... and as Harlan Ellison calls em, Those Furry Footed Fuckers, have been unleashed again. As we know, the Tolkien estate has really wanted to get the profits owed to them for the moderately successful LORD OF THE RINGS films - and it looks like they'll be dividing up around $220 million, at least, to the Tolkiens and HarperCollins. What this means is that there will not be an injunction or any other legal document that will render the one true ring, just a hunk of jewelry not fit for our Silver Screens. Nope. We're gonna get our two HOBBIT films by Guillermo Del Toro, whose feet I don't remember being furry... but he does match the description of a Dwarvish lady on an occassion here or there. Lest you think the Tolkien family are going to turn those hundreds of millions into a hollowed out mountain of gold to swim in... you'd be wrong. They apparently do a ton of heavy duty charity work that well, this settlement doesn't only get us our future HOBBIT films, doesn't just make the Tolkien family deservedly richer... but more than a 100 great charities will be able to do great work. This was always going to be the end of this particular snag, it was more about finding that number that all parties could live with.
Readers Talkback
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just wanted to get that out there
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Sept. 8, 2009, 2:58 p.m. CST
Was it a settlement or a court ruling that finalized this?
by YackBacker
Harry, do you have a link to your source?
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For the release of Watchmen? Will Fox will fuck over WB?
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I love your site and I think you do a lot for the geek/genre movie crowd, but your articles can be unreadable. This was the worst one yet. I had to re-read several sentences and I still couldn't figure out what you're saying.
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Really it is sad that such a great works like "The Hobbit" and "LOTR" go through so much of a legal wrangling. It really is all about the money.
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Wouldnt we all rather see GDT do Hellboy 3? Or a Lovecraft movie? Or anything that didnt involve a poorly written story about little people running around through the woods for two pictures? Fuck the Hobbit,Fuck the Ringworm books/movies....the only cool part about the Hobbit is that big red Dragon...maybe if they get Ron Perlman to play the Dragon and they change the story and have him kill and eat Dildo Baggins...maybe then I'll see it...if I can pirate it off the net for free. Fucking Hobbits....
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. . . thought Bilbo had been cast for sure.
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I am over these fucking Hobbits. I want devil worshiping Elves and black swords that drink souls.
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or Shadow of the Torturer even.
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Ruining the excitement for everyone with their negativity.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 3:16 p.m. CST
Not only can THE HOBBIT now officially move forward...
by Mr. Nice Gaius
...but so can the HOBBIT Talkback Insanity!<P>Glorious days they will be.
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can now be successfully placed into the 12-17yr old group. Dildo Baggins? Ringworm? The rest of this joke should play itself out...
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I am right there with you! I've wanted an elric movie since I picked those books up way back in 8th grade! But I believe this is one of two stories that will never be told on the big screen Elric Saga, and Redwall. Too bad...
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If you don't care then why bother posting? Just to be first? Just to be a dick? Fucking pathetic. Get a life asswipe. <p> Thanks for the news Harry. Now full steam ahead Guillermo & Co. Chop chop!
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what, you think artists and their families shouldn't get paid? the artists should spend years creating this stuff and the suits get all the money? fuck that. this is the real world. if you do work, then you get paid.
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See Gamer this weekend? Or Carriers? Not a single review, don't tell me Capone went out and got a life this weekend.
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I remember a movie had been optioned, but then nothing came of it. Hunting around just now produced this thread: http://tinyurl.com/npergu The first post (by Moorcock himself): "I haven't heard any recent news and am beginning to think Universal will drop the deal next year. This might be to the good in the long run. We'll see."
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The Tolkien estate wins, Del Toro wins, moviegoers win, and so do a lot of needy people. This is a real life fairy tale, and it has warmed this cranky old talkbacker's heart. Thanks for sharing, Harry.
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This is why: Everything I like gets made, I have amazing taste in this stuff (as do many of us). No matter how obscure, it will be done. Perfect example: "Don't be afftraid of the Dark" a made for TV movie from 1976. I love this film, i have a beta copy and thats it because it is way the fuck outta print. No body knows about that shit man. Or at least I thought, Del Toro is producing a remake!!! The fuck??? Yea. So keep hope alive, and make your preyers to Arioch be heard!!
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I wanted to start everything off on a sour note. That is how weary I am of hearing about Tolkein horseshit. Carry on with your dork orgy.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 3:32 p.m. CST
cyberskunk: I remember that, I think the producers of
by the Green Gargantua
American Beauty were involved, they snoozed they lose. That taste we got of Elric in Hellboy 2 was spot on, would it be cheesy to cast that guy in an Elric film? Looked perfect if you ask me.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 3:33 p.m. CST
Oh, that's nice then. Can't wait for the real movie news...
by FlickaPoo
...to start for this one. Can't wait.
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You couldn't figure out what he was saying? Harry's for sure a rather poor writer, but give me a break. If you couldn't understand what he wrote here, then the problem is with your reading comprehension, not Harry's writing.
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...I was hoping that between the high fantasy success of LOTR, and the decidedly low fantasy and craptastic success of 300 we would get a new wave of fantasy movies...everything from high end literary adaptations to daring B-movie sword and sorcery type stuff. Instead we seem to have gotten one safe kiddie adaptation after another. A kick ass ELRIC would be a good place to start...
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That was the worst post you've ever written. Do you even read what you write? Horrible!
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maybe that will help?
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Looking forward to casting news.
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they can make four movies.
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I DO sound like a juvenile douchebag....theres something about the works of Tolkein that brings that out in me. I've read all his fucking Hobbit books...I was forced to sit through the animated films when my school teachers wanted a day off...hell,I was even dragged to the recent movies thanks to a now ex-girlfriend. I've really tried to meet you Hobbit-fuckers half way but I HATE J.R.R. TOLKEIN!!!! He's the Michael Bay of literature. And god help you if you're an across theboard nerd who happens to not love the Hobbits...I also dont play D&D so maybe that has something to do with it. Anyway,I will forever love Kevin Smith for the anti-Hobbit tirade he had spew out of Randal Graves mouth in CLERKS 2-finally,someone gave voice to my pain. Still,you guys are happy,and I have no right to take that from you. Enjoy your thinly-veiled midget porno guys...I'm sure whatever GDT does with it,it'll be great(and who knows? I may even go see it if a chick I'm trying to bang is into it)
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Sept. 8, 2009, 3:57 p.m. CST
JuanSanchez - They didn't get their money in the first
by AlienDragQueen
place because the producers, the studios, did not want to pay them. Sadly, Hollywood is a crooked industry. They have a long history of using "creative" accounting techniques to demonstrate in financial statements that no profits were earned, only losses. I think one of the worst cases of this was COMING TO AMERICA, where the producers were able to make it look on paper that the movie lost money, even though the movie pulled in 100's of millions.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 4 p.m. CST
Regarding the Lord of the Rings, I think the studio tried to
by AlienDragQueen
pull the same scam on Peter Jackson and wingnut films, in that he was owed a percentage of the profits, but the studios misrepresented the financials in order to steal every last cent they could.
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He-Man has swords and naked guys and magic and elves and shit(well..it has Orko,he's kind of a magic elf). When are we gonna get a live-action He-Man movie?? Now THAT would be cool...but dont make it like that 80's He-Man movie. It took place on Earth and it also had a fucking Hobbit in it. FUCK YOU Gwildor...I dont care if you were played by the late great Billy Barty,you SUCKED!! You know what? Maybe I DONT hate Hobbits,maybe I just hate hairy midgets...although I love Ewoks.
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With Elric fans like your illiterate ass, I'd rather not stand in line with your kind. Although an Elric film based off of Song of the Black Sword would be great.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 4:05 p.m. CST
The D&D book Deities and Demigods= bad fucking ass
by the Green Gargantua
I used to use it as a real black magic book in my teens to invoke entities of fiction that I found within its pages. This while listening to proto 70's metal high as giraffe pussy. Wait, how the fuck was I able to do that???
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I understand what he is saying overall obviously. It's the meandering run-on sentences that don't make sense. I'm not an english teacher or anything, but SOME structure would be nice. I'm just glad Harry hasn't written any screenplays that have been greenlit.
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Man are you thick. You think "dork orgy" is an insult? Could you possibly be stupid enough to not realize that that's exactly what AICN is, and was always meant to be? <p> Dude, you are the worst sort of troll out there: Fucking morons with an ipse dixit belief in their own tastes, and an uncontrollable urge to shit on things they don't like in order to stroke their egos in a futile attempt to feel better about their pathetic lives. Next!
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He's just one of those online shits, that loves to see his name everywhere.
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Quote: "He's just one of those online shits, that loves to see his name everywhere."<P>Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...lockesbrokenleg.<P>(Sorry, but that was too easy to pass up.)
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I was pretty fucking literate on your mother's vag when I was hate fucking her last night in hell, bitch. I got six things going on at once, u get my short hand on this board, u wanna spell check and edit your meaningless thoughts here, be my guest Ass slam on Lando. haha Your name from this day forward will make everyone who reads this think about ass slaming Billy D, congratulations.
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thats one of the worst kept secrets in hollywood...jackson will direct a bridge movie
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Along with W., Harry is one of the most successful mildly retarded on the planet - for that I applaud him. The fact that he cannot produce a coherent sentence is unremarkable. The fact that his writing never improves, however, is a stunning achievement. It is all he does (aside from eating) and he simply never gets any better at it. Oh, also - fantasy is sci fi for girls.
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the now defunct-except-as-a-brand-of-WB New Line Studios. Who by all accounts deserve what they got. I'm sorry to say that about the studio that gave us LOTR, Pump Up The Volume and Fire Walk With Me, but to quote Mr. Vega, "You play with matches, you get burned".
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Love him, most of his work, Clerks 2 and I even found the Hobbit rant hilarious. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't matter much to me. LOTR vs. Star Wars vs. Star Trek...who needs these bullshit artificial divisions? I don't. Nor do I take any of it seriously enough to twist my panties. Unless I'm having a really bad day. Or one of you clueless chuckleheads says something that REALLY pisses me off. :)
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... but that's not what you said in your post. And Harry is self-aware enough to hire a ghost-writer/editor (as he did with his book), should the need arise.
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Fincher for Elric movie. Now please movie gods!
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u do greight job!
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first off I agree with tensticks that the divisions are stupid, I actually like LOTR, Star Wars and Star Trek. That my sound like sacrilege but who cares I like them. Anyways, I cannot wait for the Hobbit movie and would love to see a Silmarillion movie, or at least parts of it made into movies.
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It needs to be done... by the right bunch of people who won't "happy" or "teen" it to death. "Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!" Get chills thinkin' about it!
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of hobbits, the design work he put together for Hellboy II proves it.
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Dork Orgy, excellent! I laughed out loud when I read that, anyway, everythings coming together then, this is being made and haven't The Beatles reformed or something?
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Cool. I totally respect you not digging anything. That's your right. There are TONS of supposedly brilliant writers whose work I've not found loved. But your description of Tolkien as being "the Michael Bay of literature" is ridiculous. His work is multi-layered and complicated. He invented entire languages along with much of what is considered modern fantasy. If you read the books then you know the Hobbit is a kids book, LOTR is not, and Silmarillion is a history. Again, respect your right to not like 'em. But I think you're going just a WEEEEE bit far with your hatred there. lol
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Sept. 8, 2009, 5:04 p.m. CST
"Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
by the Green Gargantua
YESSSSSS. Great words indeed. That climax would be incredible to see realized in film, I always imagined it looking like a Hermonious Bosch painting. And even though that quote is the sum of her words in the entire series, I would love to see Stormbringer given a personality, she is one of the best characters in the books..
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Sept. 8, 2009, 5:07 p.m. CST
AlienDragQueen - so it was a pretend there's no profits deal
by JuanSanchez
Didn't they even get in trouble with Jackson over that?
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I totally agree, it should be the darkest most fucked up fantasy themed allegory for heroin ever created. BUT after my girlfriend made me watch that Twilight turd, i dunno. That Jackson Rathbone could probably pull off Elric. I mean he is Playing Varg Vikernes next, in Lords Of Chaos movie about murderous Black Metal in Norway. What is Elric Saga ruled by? Lords Of Chaos! and what is the Stormbringer made of? BLACK METAL! So there it is. Fincher maybe or Aronofsky!
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Jackson & Co. sued, and won.
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It is crap genre fiction for pale fancy lads like yourselves. Enjoy it - you live in your mom's basement and kids picked on you in school so you need/deserve outlets to vent your frustration and alleviate your loneliness. Fine. Please don't kid yourselves into imagining that it is art, however. There isn't anything "multi-layered and complicated" about elves and dragons and magical bullshit...unless, of course, you're stoned.
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Del Toro doing the Albino Prince of Melnibone! G-damn! Perfect. I would freakin' kill to see an Elric movie (done right, of course).
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That retarded halfwit trolls (with silly stereotypical taunts) still exist... despite some of them turning to stone on the road to the Misty Mountain.<p>Hey, BoE, you still lick your dog's asshole with that mouth?
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(besides gawking at hot bodied 20 year old boys all day), I'd hold up PJ for $50M per film for this thing.
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Don't you even give a fuck? <P> "They apparently do a ton of heavy duty charity work that well, this settlement doesn't only get us our future HOBBIT films, doesn't just make the Tolkien family deservedly richer... but more than a 100 great charities will be able to do great work" <P> It's *writing*, Harry. It's *all you do*. A little effort won't kill you.
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Those are some of the most retarded fucking claims I've ever read. "Tolkien isn't literature." GTFO of here.
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Shit, really, this wasn't already resolved, really, we need ANOTHER reminder this is coming in the oh so distant future, really? Stop the fucking teasing, Movie-Industry, and just start making this fucker before it becomes the next great disappointment internet bitchingmoaning bitches fest.
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If you don't think Tolkien is literature, you are in fact a colossal fucking moron.
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I said he wasnt GOOD literature. Hell,those chic tracts I find in the bathrooms are literature....I just wouldnt waste 200 million dollars making them into a movie.
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Several years ago, I was reading a real-time conversation a few people were having. One person said how he did not like reading Tolkien/found the work inaccessible or something similar and someone else replied, "Tolkien was not a writer by any means." I didn't want to argue about it, but I thought: "So, how well would someone have to write to graduate from 'not a writer by any means' to being a 'bad writer'?" Full disclosure: I like LotR and found the expressed sentiment intolerably snooty.
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You are right, it isn't just your opinion. It is the opinion of all of the virginal fancy lads out there in the sad kingdom of masterbatia.
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Fritz Leiber wiped the floor with J.R.R. as a fantasist and a prose writer.
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I found it exciting that Del Toro said he would kill for a chance to direct a Fafhrd & Gray Mouser movie.
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Or just the two hobbitses flick(w/ some Bridge stuff added into the second) or what?
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... you're not troll you're a flaming cliché factory! <p> Little boy, if you must shit, at least make an attempt at originality. <p> In the mean-time do me a solid and Google "Tom Shippey". Oh but, snap! You're far more discerning, and knowledgeable, about what qualifies as literature, what doesn't, and why than any damn Oxford Phd aren't you? What was I thinking? <p> I'd admonish you to actually read the book before you vomit an ipse dixit diatribe on a subject you know next to nothing about, but it would quite obviously go right over your head given the painfully limited reading comprehension skills you've demonstrated on AICN talkbacks. Never mind.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 6:12 p.m. CST
Tolkein is literature, maybe not great literature, but entertain
by toadkillerdog
And it meets the criterial definition - which in itself is actually subjective. <p> Tolkein was not a 'great writer', you can not argue he was in the realm of Voltaire or Dostoevsky or Nabokov or Mailer, or even Sci fi genre writer such as Alfred Bester. But Tolkein was imaginative and a fine craftsman at building a world. The proof is that we are arguing about it all these years later and his family is laughing it's way to great wealth. <p> There is no doubt in my mind that he created literature.
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George Lucas was consequential to film. Both men have left a lasting mark on their mediums. No one would accuse either of being "one of the greats" in the canonical sense. They've showcased their talent and imaginations, and they've scored millions of fans.
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From what I've read, it's two films with a little bridging done in the second flick.
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The Hobbit has been moving forward . . . I never realized there was a chance of production halting.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 6:38 p.m. CST
They should cast you as cameo as a Dwarf Harry
by AllPowerfulWizardOfOz
You would be perfect.
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the man himself is a complete prick. I had heard this sentiment for years on the convention circuit (used to go to about 10 a year), but never saw it myself - until catching him at both Dragoncon and World Fantasy Con. He was rude/obstinate to fans and berated his fellow fantasy authors for not being as wonderful as him. Kinda sad, really.
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We All know what happens, and the characters like Gollum and Gandalf have been played to death. And on top of everything Dragons have been done to death on film so I don't think they can pull any tricks out of their hat with that one. I think adapting the Similaran would be far better film experiences.
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A nice tip of the cap to Harry would be in order by brother Guillermo.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 6:58 p.m. CST
Moorcock, Yea but he wrote awesome Hawkwind lyrics too.
by the Green Gargantua
And was writing about the Multiverse before anyone had heard of such a concept, if he is a jerk that just makes him funny. I'd be kinda cranky too if I had a name like that..
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Sept. 8, 2009, 7:05 p.m. CST
BOE what with all your mentions of "virgins" and "masterbatia"
by TakingScorpiosCalls
do you have something to tell us?
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has to cover the "Bilbo Baggins" song. What goes around...
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Sept. 8, 2009, 7:13 p.m. CST
Will the movie have 2 hours of Bilbo serving tea to Gandalf?
by JKrow21
God that book was boring.
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Well, well, what have we here? Full-blown literary snobbery on the AICN talkback. I thought I'd never see the day. Actually I thought this was a special prerogative of the French -- but you pontifical bastards are not bad, not bad at all. Of course one might argue, if one were to possess the slightest knowledge of, say, Voltaire's output, that he was not so much a writer as he was a thinker; one could even suggest, if one wished, that he was not so much a literary figure as he was a philosophical one. One could mention in passing that Voltaire had a dog called Pierrette, that he was 5 feet and 10 inches tall, weighed a little over a hundred and sixty pounds, and frequently played croquet on his estate at Cirey. All of this, of course, has little to do with Tolkien's literary merits, but I thought I'd share it with you. Also, I believe Tchaikovsky was a better composer than Elton John because although they were both homosexuals, the former usually composed with additional string parts. (My 2 cents.)
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Credibility, meet toilet.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 7:21 p.m. CST
Candide is one of the great works in all of literature
by toadkillerdog
Volume of output is meaningless. <p>Quality is the issue. <p> Tolkein created literature by most criterial standards. Highly entertaining literature at that. Only the most stubbornly snobbish would dispute that- and even they must admit that their objection is subjective. <p>But only the most obtuse would equate Tolkein with Voltaire - by any standard.
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"are making millions, but they are giving a lot to charity, so it's ok to like them." - The collectivist left
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ever read him?
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Sept. 8, 2009, 7:31 p.m. CST
...I bet people will be reading Tolkien longer than most...
by FlickaPoo
...other 20th century authors considered more literary. Tolkien was deliberately writing an old fashioned "romance", not a novel in the modern sense...a lot of his detractors simply can't get past that distinction.
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...who don't know: As a literary genre of high culture, romance or chivalric romance is a style of heroic prose and verse narrative that was popular in the aristocratic circles of High Medieval and Early Modern Europe. They were fantastic stories about the marvelous adventures of a chivalrous, heroic knight errant, often of super-human ability, who often goes on a quest. Popular literature also drew on themes of romance, but with ironic, satiric or burlesque intent. Romances reworked legends, fairy tales, and history to suit tastes, but by c.1600 they were out of fashion and Miguel de Cervantes famously satirised them in his novel Don Quixote. Originally, romance literature was written in Old French, Anglo-Norman and Occitan, later, in English and German. During the early 13th century romances were increasingly written as prose. In later romances, particularly those of French origin, there is a marked tendency to emphasize themes of courtly love, such as faithfulness in adversity. From ca. 1800 the connotations of "romance" moved from the magical and fantastic to somewhat eerie "Gothic" adventure narratives.
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...excellent, now let's get on with casting announcements. Now, one of the greatest stories ever told will have its necessary prequel. Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie!
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Book of the New Sun is one of my favorite series. "I am not a good man. I am a bad man trying to be a good one."
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...wear the kind of sequined outfits that Elton John STILL wears? Hah, betcha didn't think of that did you greenleaf? Also, Liberaces sequins were bigger and more colorful so, therefore and dipstick fixwitch, he was a better musician than Elton John AND Tchaikovsky combined. Hey, that makes sense somewhere...I just can't think of where. All of this, of course, adds up to Tolkien being a wonderful story teller...it's the Music of the Ainur...where it all comes from.<p> Y'see folks, it's the story itself, Silmarillion+Hobbit+Lord of the Rings that puts Tolkien up there with the greats. Not my fault if you don't like it...go to another TB or as Ruby Rod might say, "BZZZTTTT! BZZZTTTT!!"
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In addition to playing Gwildor,Billy Barty ALSO did the voice for Bilbo in some 70's animated Hobbit thing. Which brings me to anohter grip I have about these new Hobbit movies-what the fuck is up with using CGI to midgetize normal sized actors? That shit is digital blackface!! Whatever happened to all the great midget actors of the 80's? Did Lucas get them all killed? Cause I know a lot of his movies are non-union gigs,and if anyone could get away with a mass midget genocide in the deserts of Tunisia,it would be the bearded one. Where's the next Billy Barty? Or Warwick Davis? Or Kenny Baker? And what about that Seinfeld midget? I know he was in WATCHMEN,but that guy is great and should be in EVERYTHING! Seinfeld midget gotta eat,GDT...thats all I'm sayin...
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...felt a little adolescent to me (but not the old pulpy sort of adolescent like ELRIC or CONAN that can get away with that sort of thing)...worth a second try?
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...I thought they were just being money grubbers at first then I found out otherwise.<p>So charitable giving is now considered "leftist"? With that sort of thinking, no wonder the right is so despised in this country now...they've thoroughly earned it.
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Well, maybe community college - I wouldn't know. In my case, they had us read the Hobbit in junior high (along with other bad works of non-literature like The Outsiders) in an obvious ploy to get the boys interested in reading. JKrow21 is right - it was a tedious and aggressively unfunny read. By the time I got to college, all but the nerdiest of the nerdly nerds had put the goblins and talking trees behind them and moved on to more mature interests like girls and pot. Some guys never escape their fascination with magical bullshit - I don't mind as long as they keep it in perspective (and to themselves). Patton Oswalt still talks fluent geek, but he has a sense of humor about it and he knows real adult writing when he reads it (he has a nice eulogy for David Foster Wallace up on his blog you may want to check out). In conclusion: Tolkein is yesterday's Rowling - if you want to call it literature for children or literature for the learning impaired, fine, otherwise you have my pity. Enjoy polishing your wands. ;)
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...the faux midget outrage was so Lord of the Rings. Can't you lot come up with something new for the Hobbit? Hint: The focus will be on Dwarves this time...yep, get your bag of Dwarf tossing/oil wrestling jokes ready cause there's going to be thirteen of those hairy bastards this time around!
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Couldn't get in BoE?
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Except don't go the True Blood route and deviate wildly from the source material.
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...like Moaters said above, you've covered about every Tolkien cliche I've heard in the past fifty odd years...yawn. Just so you'll know, your cliche ridden ilk have been around ever since LoTR was first published making the same tired (fill-in-the-blank but lets use the ever popular "nerd") jokes. Get over it, millions of people love it and there will be millions more fans once the Hobbit movies have been shown. Ha-ha, too bad for you...maybe a 90210 move will come out pretty soon to make you happy, happy and you'll forget about all that Tolkien stuff you just hate to talk about (but you sure seem to spend enough time doing it).
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I liked it, but if you found yourself not liking the books, then maybe you wouldn't like them this time. Maybe you'd enjoy reading _Journey to the West_ instead? The edition I have is edited by Anthony C. Yu, four books. That way you can read a national classic and a fantastical story at the same time. I'm not sure whether you'd enjoy them or not, though. Those are another favorite of mine.
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... he squealed, barely able to contain his delight, well met! You always could crack me up, without so much as a drop of sweat or hint of grimace. Slim pickings in this TB I'm afraid. Now if you'll excuse me: Larf larf larf! Chortle chortle chortle...
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In a composition class (when I used to be in high school), we were supposed to do some book report or analysis and someone asked the teacher about Tolkien and she said, "I will not take Tolkien for anything." I heard a few groans.
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Just make a movie worth my time and money.
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...though difficult at the first read (Only the Ainulindalie, though.), I love it for what it is. The Tale of Beren and Luthien alone (Oh no, here he goes again!) would make an absolutely killer movie.<p>Moaters, stop that larfing at once...chortling will always be OK though. Just so you'll know...wait a minute, I have to go create a hot link.
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...try plowing through Christopher's "History of Middle-earth" all twelve (or thirteen?) of 'em. That's where you learn about making lembas...I shit you not. Man, keep a box of toothpicks ready to prop open the eylids. I still love it, however, even "Unfinished Tales." I do think the Akallabeth parts get a bit dull what with all those freakin' names...good heavens! Did Ar-pharazon really begat Tevildo? Maybe greenleaf knows...or Moaters. Yeah, what do you guys think?
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...the Silmarillion are GREAT! Shiny also...
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Sept. 8, 2009, 8:55 p.m. CST
Does anyone know anyone who's benefited from a Charity?
by ganymede3010
Charities are the biggest fucking rip offs known to mankind. So it's depressing that the Toilkens would throw their money at charities that steal 90% of the donations.
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52 years he was with Variety, now gone: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118008272.html?categoryid=13&cs=1
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Tolkien's gift and skill with composition and language puts him up there with the all time great English language writers, e.g.: <P> "And in that very moment, away behind in some far corner of the city, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed reckoning nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn. <P> And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's side they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North, wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last." <P> He's in the same league as Shakespeare, Dickens, but even more appealing to the modern ear. <P> I've not read another modern english author that approaches Tolkien's skill with words (JK Rowling isn't close to the same league). <P> If you have, please let me know.
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Yea I would suggest a re-reading of The Book of the New Sun as a whole. it was actually written to be read and re -read over and over with increasing satisfaction.
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would suck because they would cheap out on the effects budget. I want to see the blade drag the soul from the body in a trail of black light with every killing slash. Ugh, True Blood is a gay soap, Mary Heartman with fangs.
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And I thought it was a far better read than the Hobbit or LOTR trilogy. Besides tt has all the elements of a kickass film if it is adapted right, just as LOTR was.
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Tolkien may have not been the most gripping writer, but it was his imagination, his creation of a complete self contained world that readers could explore that made his worls great. You always have to sacrifice pacing for content and vice versa. Tolkien can be a hard read because he packs so much info into is writing that pacing has to be ignored. Dean Koontz is a master of pacing but well you get the idea....
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Tailenders: Without the douchebags, I am nothing. toadkillerdog (not a douchebag): Candide is a scathing indictment of 18th Century Europe. War, politics, social hierarchy, morality, religion, blah blah blah. As such, it is a brilliant satire, full of wit, its main purpose being to shock, and amuse. Which it did, in its time. While it has achieved considerable fame and status, and is probably Voltaire's masterpiece in that it is the most widely successful of his (numerous) works, it is not, nor was it intended to be "serious" literature by any means. For all its wackiness, the story of Candide is sketchy at best. So are the characters. If anything, Candide is proof that "great literature" can also be simple, straightforward, and entertaining. Candide can be read by anyone. People who are not familiar with the source of Pangloss' metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology, of with any of the masterpieces in Lord Pococurante's sumptuous collection, will still find both men ridiculous. And thus, with the varnish of time and history, through the prestige of 18th Century France and the intellectual stature of Voltaire, a rather silly piece of lampooning has become one of the greatest works of literature of all time. In other words: bad example. It is very well possible that, in a couple hundred years, when those movies are long forgotten, The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit will still be read. They will have become, in effect, literary classics, if they have not already done so. So time will tell. At this point, definitive judgments as can be read on this moronic page are just silly.
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Great - well put. The funny/sad thing is, we all have a nerdy fascination with something - nothing wrong with that. I think PK Dick is brilliant. I think Bukowski was a genius. I don't think either of them deserves a Nobel prize. I don't talk about them in the same breath with, say, Joyce (Shakespeare is sooooooo beyond absurd I'm still not sure if the guy was joking). Sadly, all too often, Tolkein nerds wallow in the delusion that their particular obsession is deserving of special consideration. The Martian Manhunter line was excellent, btw.
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and then look around puzzled wondering where they went to.
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Holy Shit! Never thought I would see an Elric reference paired with Mary Hartman. Thanks dude, that was the funniest thing I read all night. Well, that, and Kobe's full screen name. That made me spew through my nose.
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Sept. 8, 2009, 9:44 p.m. CST
...ah, BoE, if you only knew how well Tolkien and girls and pot.
by FlickaPoo
...go together...oh well, your loss. But believe me...they go together VERY well...
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...you know how it is though...it's too soon to re-read Tolkien and other things seem...thin and cartoony by comparison...it's hard to get the itch scratched...
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Jobacca you're okay in my book.
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... whatever your handle is, you demonstrably missed the central narrative of the Silmarillion ENTIRELY. It is the story of "the long defeat". Of the marring of arda, of the pride of Feanor bringing woe and ruin to all the peoples of Middle Earth and Valinor. Tolkien hated allegory but there is a great deal of applicability to the history of the real world christian west and the mythology of the bible. The battle between "good" and "evil", the NATURE of good and evil","the fall of man", and the terrible price of hubris. And all you saw was Lembas baking and family trees(?) What can I say? "The Silmarillion" would seem to be beyond your ken. Best stick to Rowlings, or Moorecock, or Pratchet, or whatever.
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I started off by affirming my belief that Tolkein did indeed produce entertaining literature. It is the quality of that literature that can be questioned. Whether or not it ranks in the upper echelon of classic literature is the question - which to me has a definitive answer: A resounding no. That is no knock against Tolkein. He did not set out to produce great literature, and he succeeded in that. He did set out to produce a great and rousing entertainment. And he succeeded in that. <p> Voltaire was a genius. You are correct that his tract was meant as a lampoon - and it succeeded brilliantly. So brilliantly in fact that the quality of the writing surpassed the intent of the writer's message and thus passed into history as a truly great piece of literature. Yes, I chose it for that very reason. It is a great choice because it shows that the quality of the writing can trump the message. You can enjoy Candide today with absolutely no knowledge of the context in which it was written. <p> It is not the genre that determines the greatness of a work, it is the quality of the work itself. And the imprimatur of time that bestows that honor. <p>
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is a tad easy. As in: cheap rhetorical device. Not all those who read Tolkien are nerds, and while Tolkien's immense popularity is harmful to his reputation in higher circles, and is often used to demean him and his work, there are other things to consider, all too easily overlooked by the intellectually dishonest (and the uneducated retards). * *Huh...Hmm would you pinch me, I dreamt I was back in Paris and arguing with the common intellectual.
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You can have my Martin when you pry it from my cold dead fingersessss yessss my preciousssss....
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... I wouldn't recommend any more Voltaire references, comparisons, whatever, because Greenleaf will simply hand you your ass on a platter without breaking a sweat...
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... I wouldn't recommend any more Voltaire references, comparisons, whatever, because Greenleaf will simply hand you your ass on a platter without breaking a sweat...
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RIP Army.
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...good lord control yourself. And anyone using a tired and recently overused ad nauseum cliche like "drinking the kool-Aid" has officially declared themselves unfit for a discussion about books. Any books. Not Tolkien, not Hemingway, not The Little Engine That Could.
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I misjudged you mellon, you are one FUUNNNY motherfucker! I read EVERYTHING you simpering git. Just because "The Silmarillion" is over your pointy little head is no reason to get a case of the ass when you're overmatched. <p> Just for the record, JRRT is not my favorite author, but unlike you, I do recognize genius when I see it, literary accolades or no. <p>. Do you have [a] favorite author(s)? I'll kick your ass in a discussion of whomever you name.
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No, hating those who make more money than you and don't do what you tell them to with it is leftist. The left only gives other people's money away.
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Whatever Greenie and I have (and Eru knows "I" have no idea), since 1999(?) is none of your ass picking business. {;-0
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Well put. Tolkien did set out to produce something that would "merely" bring "delight" to the reader, and sometimes "profoundly move" him, in which he succeeded; he did not have, by his own admission, the slightest ambition of becoming "a great author", or in "furthering the art" like other modern writers. But sometimes, a great work is produced that surpasses the intentions, or ambition, of its author. Indeed Tolkien became engulfed by his own creation, it submerged him, and he could not manage to finish it himself while he was still alive. It was a staggering achievement, which had a tremendous impact, and The Lord of the Rings is only the tip of the iceberg, deservedly his most popular and most accessible work: it was his Candide. (On a sidenote: I disagree that the quality of the writing is what makes the greatness of Candide. Voltaire had of course a great command of French, but I find his language pretty standard. Some of the English translations I have read in part, and did not find the impact of the original significantly diminished. This satirical mode was pretty common at the time. If Voltaire had not been so forward-looking, his tract, however well-written, would be forgotten.)
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You are recapitulating some of the points I made, which shows that we are not really far apart. Perhaps the main bone of contention is that we disagree over the quality of Tolkeins achievement vs. say Rowling and of course Voltaire.<p> I do not see Tolkein as any better than middling when it comes to fantasy authors in this or any other century. That is not to denigrate the man or his works, because I love his vision. But, popularity does not mean literary greatness, nor dies obscurity equate to a lack therof. Rowling? Extremely popular, and she does have talent and immense creativity. Will she be hailed as a classic author? I doubt it. A command of language can be a blessing or it can simply be a flourish. I have not read Voltaire in French, so I can only attest to the translations, but a well turned phrase or two does not equate to a great book. Simple but effective (and by no means do I think Voltaire was simple - lampooning takes talent) beats someone who opens a dictionary and throws around a polysyllabic word or three. <p> Construction and execution. beat flash
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In that case we are saying the same thing, except that in your view, Tolkien does not achieve greatness. (Let's not) define greatness. As for Rowling, her books have been in existence a few decades less than Tolkien's, so the call is even more difficult to make; however I tend to agree with you.
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I have to take the dog out for his last pee of the night - yeah too much info. I am out as well. <p>Greenleaf, it was nice chatting with you. I look forward to more such debate.
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"I" have inflated sense of my self?! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! *wipes tears from his eyes* <p> "Hello Pot? This is kettle. You're black" <p> Cherryh, good writer, somewhat obscure, from my home town, been aware of her since the late 70ies. Pretentious name, obviously heavily influenced by Faulkner in terms of style. Rather derivitive of Heinlein, Bradbury and PK Dick, but not quite up to their level. Decent, but kind of a perpetual wannabe IMO. On Tolkiens level in any way? Absolutely not.
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Tolkein does achieve a greatness, I just do not equate him to great literature as say David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest, or as good as a work of contemporary fantasy such as George R.R. Martin.<p> It is subjective of course. And really I am in no way bashing Tolkein - I love most of his books, and have been a huge fan since childhood. But I separate my affection for his works and the impact they have made to my appreciation of what I consider far greater literary achievements - such as that of Voltaire.
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Russell Hoban? Total crap, right? (please say yes, then I'll have proof positive that you are indeed a shallow vapid dumbass)
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Russell Hoban? Total crap, right? (please say yes, then I'll have proof positive that you are indeed a shallow vapid dumbass)
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Stephanie Meyer anyone? I think we have some closet Twilight fans on here! Get back Devils!!! Popularity does not a good writer make.
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I love LOTR. I know plenty of people who do and some who don't. I don't know about anybody else on here but I'm excited to see two new Hobbit movies. Anyone? Anyone? Oh, you're still arguing about who knows more about literature... nevermind... sigh...
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... sincerley. Effing smart phone...
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... it just occurred to me - I'm starting to forget things in my avanced state of decrepitude. I actually met C.J. Cherryh once in 1981 or 82, I think, at a reading/signing/"event" for "Downbelow Station" held at Washington University in St. Louis. Have to admit, I was quite star-struck at the time.
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but i can see how it might be too much for some people. i have friends that love tolkien but just can't get into the silmarillion due to all the bible-esque info that is in it. <P> it is not boring though by any means. its my favorite of all tolkiens writings that i have read, turin turambar being my favorite story. its definitely nerds-only regarding that book but it has some of the coolest shit in it. i love the fall of numenor parts as well. <p> an elric movie would kick total ass. i don't think it will ever be made but hey if they made a solomon kane movie (which i guess actually did happen though i have heard fuck all about it since harry reviewed it) and a john carter movie perhaps that bodes well for other hidden fantasy gems.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 12:11 a.m. CST
sorry, also regarding george rr martin and gene wolf
by martinlutherkrangjr
i really enjoy a song of fire and ice. its actually what got me to read fantasy again after writing off the genre due to Robert Jordan. i don't think i can say if it will be up there with tolkien until i see if a) martin actually finishes the goddamn thing and b) if he does actually finish it will it be any good. <P> now gene wolf, i only read one of his books and that would be Shadow and Claw or claw of the conciliator but i don't think i will ever go back for more. it was just kinda ok. not very entertaining and really thats all i want from the fantasy genre. the world seemed really cool, and i got a nice visual of what it looked like but the characters were not very memorable and the story was boring. thats just my opinion
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Sept. 9, 2009, 12:13 a.m. CST
the lies of locke lamorra was a pretty fun read though
by martinlutherkrangjr
the second book not as good, but the first one was a fun read with some cool characters. anyone else read that one?
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We differed a bit on freedom of religion, but it was a reliable car.
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storm constantine, the gorhmengast trilogy and the series that has dragons in the napoleonic war, i don't remember what its called.
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But had incredible imaginative ideas. Ideas and concepts that needed to be turned into readable/ watchable content like Hampton Fancher did. I put Tolkien in that same category. Not the greatest writer but had such wonderful ideas and such.
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was his ability to convey his immense paranoia. makes me feel like i am hanging out with a bunch of really noided out 60 yr acid freaks, in a good way.
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uhh no dude, thats just a distant porchlight.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 12:42 a.m. CST
JACKSON SHOULD HAVE DONE THE HOBBIT INSTEAD OF KONG!!!FACT!!!
by CarlThorMark1978
Gee, make a classic book into a film for the first time or do a fucking remake of a movie from 1933 that has already been remade. Fucking knob.
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http://www.plan9movie.com/trailer.html
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My father studied Tolkien as part of his Masters at university (English Lit major). So I'll take what he said over some talkback troll any day. Tolkien's Middle-Earth saga is widely regarded as one of the greatest works of English literature - yes, it is included amongst Shakespeare and Dickens. Not only that, Tolkien succeeded in providing England with the mythology he felt they lacked - one of the main reasons he wrote the books. Almost every aspect of the fantasy genre has since been influenced by Tolkien's work.<p> Funnily enough, RandySavage, that quote you gave is one of my father's favourites.
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Watching the Lord of the Rings for the first time in four years, they really aren't as good as I remember. In fact some of it is completely laughable and cringeworthy - that line, "They run as if the whips of their very masters were behind them" nearly made me choke on a fruit pastille. Still, the Aragorn/Rohan storyline remains compelling, even if everything else is mind-rottingly dull.
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Tolkien was a professor of English Lit (at Oxford, no less) himself. If anyone knew outstanding literature (and how to write it) it was him.
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Now I'm wondering what is the status of the Voltron movie.
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These will be a spectacle worth watching. And will give us at least 37 new middle earth video games!
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Anthony Burgess is about the best wordsmith in my humble opinion. A true master of the vast english language, a worthy rival of Shakespeare. He considered Clocwork Orange to be one of his lesser works...
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Actually, I had to study some of Tolkien's essays at university. Especially that fucking boring one about old English and Beowulf. Tolkien is arguably one of the most important academics of the 20th Century<P>However, and it's a big however, he was not a novelist. LOTR was intended as principally an academic study. The man himself despised people who liked it for the romance aspects of it. <P>So before you get into "intended to write entertainment", bear in mind that a) he didn't and b)this is the Intentional Fallacy at work, so it doesn't matter what he intended. <P>Whoever compared Tolkien to Shakespeare, by the way, is hereby banished to the corner and forced to wear the conical hat with a D on the front. <P>Finally, lets not forget that he was a dreadful racist.
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I need to see something new and fresh. When is Spiderman 4 out?
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There are two illiterate half-wits here who seem to think their opinion is worth a damn, but Tolkien's writing speaks for itself. His prose is downright poetic, and he created an entire universe. Yes, his stories are very leisurely paced, but so is Homer, and many of the greats. LOTR has withstood the test of time and transcended mere popularity.
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and more bollocks being talked. <P>The only name remotely comparable to Shakespeare is Chaucer. <P>Burgess, while a fine writer/ wordsmith is not in the same league. But virtually no English language writer is. <P>he did consider Clockwork Orange to be a lesser work for 3 reasons: <P> He despised the bastardised American edition- and resented the mentality that cut the last chapter and inflicted a fucking glossary on it. <P>Because Kubrick was a hermetic recluse he had to spend a lot of time defending it. So grew to loathe it. <P>He thought it was too didactic and morally cowardly.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 3:18 a.m. CST
"despised people who liked it for the romance aspects"
by MattmanReturns
Back that statement up with evidence please. Find a quote where he says that. Tolkien steadfastly opposed the notion that his stories were allegory for present times. However, his portrayal of hobbits, elves, and Gondor is nothing if not romantic.
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I like LOTR and The Hobbit. Just clarifying a few things.
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Give me a second and I'll link to it, I'll just have to find it online, give me about an hour (if work doesn't interfere). <P>The legend of the man has overtaken the novel- and you're all displaying it. <P>For the record- again- I like it and think it was an epic novel, just not what he intended. <P>Although, admittedly, I do blame him entirely for having a semester of Old English inflicted on me.
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I'm not saying that LOTR was allegorical, as I knew that already.
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Comparing Chaucer to Shakespeare, that is Bollocks indeed. Burgess could write circles around Chaucer, both as a storyteller and as linguist.
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Apples and oranges. One is not better than the other. Some people simply prefer apples. However, if you tell an English lit professor that "Tolkien isn't literature," as BoE claims, he simply won't take you seriously from that point on.
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"Lest you think the Tolkien family are going to turn those hundreds of millions into a hollowed out mountain of gold to swim in... you'd be wrong." <p>How can (and why would) one possibly swim in a mountain of gold?
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fucker thought he could tiptoe back in when everyone left.
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Rumor has it that the Tolkien family have recently devolved into Graboids.
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I mean, one thing the HARRY POTTER things did right was not to have Americans putting on silly posh English accents. They also had a British producer - and (brilliant as Cuaron's film is) the moment they got British directors on board I felt the human (rather than magical) side of Rowling was much better understood. As it is, I can already hear those stupid fucking Oirish pipes in my ears... what the hell did that have to do with The Shire? A little less James Horner in TITANIC mode, please, and a bit more Vaughn Frikkin Williams.
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I thought it was pretty good for a fan made film. The guy playing Aragorn looked like the lovechild between Viggo Mortensen and Jesus. I actually thought the fight choreography was better than LOTR. At least the guy didn't hit the slo mo edit function every five seconds like Jackson. I'm pretty sure it takes place after the Hobbit but before LOTR. Anybody else's thoughts? Btw, you can see it for free at www.huntforgollum.com
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Lot of dick waving over books in this talkback. I'm not smart like y'all but isn't pulling Chaucer out in any argument worthy of imediate dismissal? We all know that anyone who namedrops Shakespear is being a cunt but Chaucer? WTF?!?!?
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OK Jarv, please explain how Tolkien himself was a dreadful racist.<p>Was he a product of the times he lived in?...absolutely. Did he own slaves?...nah. Did he refuse Joseph Goebbels offer to write for the Nazi's?...yes. Were the Black Numenoreans actually black skinned?...nah. Did he ever utter the "n" word in his lifetime?...probably did right along with the rest of us.<p>Some people like to throw the racist word around but it's been my observation that people set a very low threshold for the definition...one that the vast majority of people would meet.<p>But please, let's do run through the whole gamut again from Jewish Dwarves to Swertings. Maybe elfkiller will show up again to convince us all that liking Tolkien is tantamount to having supported apartheid and personally organizing lynchings. Anybody remember the "Italians = orcs" and "Matthew Sheppard was killed because Hobbits made him gay" routine?
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That's not an insult by any means. Just something different about your writing. You write like a smart girl and that. Say "ipse dixit" again.
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Chaucer is arguably the father of modern English. <p>Burgess, while a fine writer and one of my favourites isn't on the same level. <P>I'm not saying that Tolkien isn't literature, I like it and think it is. <P>PS- no-one had to die to make me The Jarv. But thank you very much- I've never been a "The" before.
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I thought it was a piece of shit compared to Jackson's work. But yeah it's an ok fan film I guess.
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If EVER there was a fantasy property that begs for a movie series, ELRIC is it! I'd probably openly weep upon seeing a title with the wwords "Stormbringer" flash across the screen.
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may as well do it properly. Really, though, nobody compares to Shakespeare, and any comparison drawn to him is utter crap- whether influence or whatever.<P>I fucked that last post up as I was rushing, sorry. <P>All my old professors would be aghast to discover that some people didn't think Tolkien was literature.
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God, it's been YEARS since I read the Elrics. I vaguely remember enjoying them, and I even have a badly painted box set of the Citadel Miniatures. My Jerry Cornelius actually looks like the lead singer of Def Leppard...<P> How has a series of books, most of which feature an albino swordsman who owns a Chaos sword that drinks the souls of anyone it slays, NOT yet have been made?? It's practically ALREADY a movie - just point the cameras and go!<P> and don't even get me started on why David Gemmell hasn't got up on the silver screen yet. Can you imagine a LEGEND movie? Or THE SIPSTRASSI CHRONICLES?...
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A bunch of indigenous people (Furry Footed Fuckers) who don't want anyone of a different race (Elves, Dwarves, Orcs etc) living in their little utopia (The Shire) and who are forced to come out of their self-imposed exile to save the world from the ultimate non-indigenous invader (Sauron etc) from taking over their world.<P> The Daily Mail would have a fucking field day. And the Nazgul are the chieftain leaders of the Taliban...
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Sept. 9, 2009, 6:46 a.m. CST
'The only name remotely comparable to Shakespeare is Chaucer'
by Mr Gorilla
Really? According to who? Your cat Billy? Well tell your furry friend to read Paradise Lost.
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Just charge double, for Christ sake.
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Only the Wombles could win this one.
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We are going to get two so-so movies instead of one great one.
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I stand corrected. <P>The point was, if you're going to make silly fucking literary comparisons (it isn't a league table anyway), you may as well make them properly.
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That's not an insult by any means. Just something different about your writing. You write like a smart girl and that. Say "ipse dixit" again
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You are a dog right? That's not an insult by any means. Just something different about your writing. You write like a smart dog and that. Say "grr rowf" again.
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Girls in an AICN talkback. Tberwnn you nut...
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I know you geeks like hopelessly inadequate protagonists to identify with (see Harry Potter) but give me a fucking break. Dont tell me you didnt laugh when you saw those hobbits in lotro draw that little shinig blue sword and tried to look menacing.
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Really? According to who? Your dog Milly? Well tell your furry friend to read The Da Vinci Code.
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No, mea culpa, I was just being an arsehole. Actually, though, I just read a Ted Hughes article about Shakespeare, and he points out how S had to write in a way that would appeal to both the masses and the intellectuals - and that S managed it. So when people write about blockbusters that they are 'not Shakespeare', I always want to say that they SHOULD be: quality films that nevertheless have mass appeal. 'Check your brain in at the box office' is for losers!
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I'm wondering if one of you could give us the clinical term for a pathetic asshat who thinks even one person on the entire fucking planet gives a flying fuck about what they, with their infinite wisdom and impeccable taste, don't like? FACT - even your mother doesn't give a shit; go ahead, go upstairs and ask her!
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All she would need would be a bald wig, and to NOT wear make up.
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....Ian McKellen confirmed it a couple weeks ago. He's not spilling the beans though. FUCKKKK. I'm guessing they'll announce it near December?
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fucking pussy Mark Hammill. That guy whined so much in Star Wars.
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Seriously. GDT is a retarded director. I'm pissed he's making this. His english-language films are mind-numbingly stupid with some of the worst dialogue. Thank God other people are writing the Hobbit script, if it was given solely to him it would be a complete mess. GDT is overrated on this site. Much like Abrams.
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all of his films are story-less creature features.
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Its so epic that it distills the battles in LOTR down to a paragraph or half a page, while their own battles last entire chapters. Like I said, EPIC.
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The Beatles remasters!!!! Who here heard the rumor that Paul and John approached Stanley Kubrick once to make a Lord of the Rings movie and Kubrick laughed it off. It would have had them in it... yikes!
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2001: A Space Odyssey (April 1968) One the major events of 1968 was the release of Stanley Kubrick's monumental film. It opened in London on April 11 at the Casino theater. In Manhattan the film had a run of over a year at one theater. Lennon wasn't the only fan: An actual "2001 Fan Club" has developed, with Mike Nichols, Mick Jagger, John Lennon ("I see it every week"), Franco Zeffirelli, Roman Polanski, Richard Lester, et cetera, represented. Where Did It Go Right, Chicago Daily News, ???1968, cited in The Making Of Kubrick's 2001, Jerome Agel, 1970 John was so impressed that he considered having Kubrick direct the next Beatle movie, but the meeting went badly: John - whose favorite movie at the time was 2001: A Space Odyssey - went so far as to meet with Stanley Kubrick to interest him in the possibility of directing the Tolkien film [Lord of the Rings]. The interview, however, went poorly, and John came away wondering about how the man who'd directed 2001 could be so nowhere.
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It looks like the Beatles toyed with the idea of bringing J.R.R. Tolkein's LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy to the big screen in the early 1970s, with Paul McCartney in the role of Frodo Baggins. According to Denis O'Dell, the film producer for the Beatles back then, John Lennon would have played Gandalf. O'Dell added David Lean (LAWRENCE OF ARABIA) was interested, but was working on RYAN'S DAUGHTER, and was unable to break away. They also attempted to get Stanley Kubrick to try, but he deemed the books, like many other directors before the age of CGI, unfilmable.
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This guy is garbage. People like to pretend they're movie-buffs by talking about how much of a "visionary" he is because of the randomness of the creatures in his movies. <p><p>Unfortunately, that's all it is. Randomness. It's multiple ideas and physical traits/abilities hashed together to form oddly-shaped, oddly-behaving monsters that some people somehow interpret as being "mindblowingly original". Sorry. Not buying it. You don't get a pass just because you can have your art department cook up some creatures based on a few ideas you threw at them. It doesn't mean he's "imaginative"; there's not a single creature I've seen in any one of his movies that you can't easily look at and see his Rolodex-like thought process that went into creating it. Pan was good, but ultimately forgettable. Keep him (and his name for that matter) far, far away from this project. At least until he gets some real directing and story-telling skills.
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At least in the geek community. Pan's Labyrinth is pretty brilliant, and I haven't seen Devil's Backbone yet, but his other more mainstream films like Blade II and the Hellboy flicks are good, not great. Actually, I still haven't seen pt II. I have friends who say its terrible.
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Well done. You've unequivically established that you like Cherryh. I've only read a few of her things back in the early to mid 80ies, and sadly, *sniff* I completely overlooked your reference to Union Alliance. I thought you just threw her name out there, confident that I wouldn't know who she is. Damn it all! What a discussion we might have had!! Given her "world building" prowess one might argue that she owes somewhat to JRRT eh what? I wonder what 'she' thinks of "The Silmarillion". <p> "Everything" and "kick your ass" were hyperbolic, over the top, in the heat of the moment, and ill-advised. I get carried away sometimes. And to be truthfull, I don't remember much about the Union Alliance. So, you win! Yaaaay. And you're right, I'm a complete loser asswipe, and mentally unstable to boot(!) {:-) You probably ought to stay away from Hoban though; not nearly as brilliant as Cherryh, and quite beneath someone with your immaculate taste in reading material. You rule dude! <p> But, you know, in the end, aren't we both just a couple of opinionated jagoffs spewing useless self affirming bullshit, pontificating 'til the cows come home, on a badly executed fanboy movie web site message board? <p> Now kindly go shove a copy of "The Silmarillion" up your ass, and have nice day.
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and once Batman 3 is finally finished production. N. Korea will nuke us all!
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"Laberynth"
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"Pan's Labyrinth" is a, what did you call them? "Storyless creature feature"? Creatures yes, but storyless? Seriously?
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Sept. 9, 2009, 11:01 a.m. CST
The Silmarillion gets a bit too "This elf tribe begat that elf t
by ZombieHeathLedger
and my eyese start to glaze...
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...that he brings his A-game to his smaller, Spanish films and then goes all scrubs on his more mainstream Hollywood fare.<P>Why can't he always bring his A-game? It's this tendency that worries me most about his directing of THE HOBBIT...although, I'm very curious about Jackson's overall involvement.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 11:14 a.m. CST
THE SILMARILLION is like the Bible or any number of...
by Mr. Nice Gaius
...ancient mythology texts. Since it is literally a telling of over 10,000 years of history (from the creation of Middle Earth to the end of the Third Age), it naturally reads like an archane history book told in a old-school grand "high-style".<P>While I admit that it's a rather difficult read, the tales become more engrossing as they move closer to the events of LOTR. Considering the scale and the complexity of the world Tolkien created, I find it to be a staggering accomplishment.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 11:30 a.m. CST
I loved the story of Melkor/Ungoliant/Silmarils story
by ZombieHeathLedger
that would be awesome to see filmed
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The silmarillion was one of the most staggeringly boring and tepid pieces of work I have ever read. It was not just hard to read, it was damn near impossible unless you truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, truly love LOTR and forgive all that is Tolkein. I likened it to reading Gravity’s Rainbow - without the humor. Which itself was a towering achievement in art of being impenetrable. That book is literary birth control. I defy anyone other than Pynchon to explain it. And I am not joking. It is truly a monument to one man’s writing solely and exclusively for himself, and to hell with the audience. <p>Silmarillion was that exact same type. Tolkein wrote for himself, dude must have had insomnia.
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That's cool. But as someone who has always enjoyed mythology (Greek, Norse, etc.), I had/have no problem reading THE SILMARILLION. And I don't think one has to "forgive all that is Tolkien" to enjoy it.<P>Much to Tolkien's credit, he was not very keen on publishing THE SILMARILLION or any of the more in-depth history of LOTR. He did not think it would appeal to the average reader and (perhaps most importantly to him) he thought it would destroy the magic. In other words, once you go back and explain everything, you take away the mystic from the primary tale (LOTR).
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... of the ass. Every accusation 100% accurate. Completely pathetic. You handed me my ass yesireebob. I suck donkey balls (as often as I can get them anyway). So, why are you still strutting around crowing? I already admitted to hubris and stupidity (my most prevalent personality traits BTW.) What do you want? What need are you trying fill? You already won dude! That not enough for you? Do I to suck your cock and tell you how brilliant I think you are? What does it feel like being smarter than everyone else? Must be awesome. Me? I have no life and way too much time on my hands. And I get carried away sometimes. <p> You're vicious man, just plain hostile.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 12:05 p.m. CST
Let me get the lotion so i can beat off to this glorious news
by Disney_Retcond_my_STD
who cares? Star Wars all day! Rings sucks kizock
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The story was secondary, it's as if he just threw it in at the last minute to supplement the creatures. Like he always does. And this is all the more apparent to us when we watch his hollywood films aswell. I only have faith in this film because the original team is reining him in.
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"....about the man who'd directed 2001 could be so nowhere."<P>........"Nowhere man........"
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Sept. 9, 2009, 1:15 p.m. CST
Elric Saga is to Black Sabbath as LOTR/Hobbit is to Lead Zeppeli
by the Green Gargantua
I prefer Sabbath. Make those fucking movies please. Not all of us relate to Hobbits.
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... the ass taster. Humiliated by a skirmish with an opinionated asshole in an AICN tb? You must be crazy.
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If you can honestly claim that Pan's Labyrinth isn't a story driven film, you're simply ignoring the facts. Pan's Layrinth was brimming with story. It resembled the classic fairy tales, which were nothing if not story driven. Aside from the main plot, there were tons of tiny subplots, and every character felt like they had a history, from major characters like the villain and Mercedes, to smaller ones like the doctor. And as for those creatures you mention, each of them was well thought out as well.
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Someone else posted way up there what I also thought would happen but didn't... a fantasy/sci-fi boom based on the success of LOTR, in which we would finally get us some Elric or even some Lankhmar. Can't believe those properties are rotting away like that. I dunno if the general movie-going public would embrace a dour, tragic, operatic, mind-bending epic in the form of the Elric Saga but I sure as hell would!
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... for setting me straight. I would have sworn Pan's Labyrinth was a story about the brutality that unchecked power inevitably leads to, the evils of totalitarianism, the power of imagination, the inherent innocence of childrens' perceptions, and justice winning out in the end; all set against the backdrop of the Spanish civil war. But as kobe will gleefully tell you: I'm an idiot, so I'll just genuflect to your amazingly insightful mind and shut the hell up.
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Yeah. I thought "Pan's Labyrinth" was chock full of story AND allegory and so was "The Devil's Backbone" for that matter.
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Besides, Emmanual Lewis and Gary Coleman need the work.
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On a Moorcock message board, there was some info about how the failure of The Golden Compass had some people worried about doing an Elric movie.
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This is one of the worst written articles I've ever read here. WTF were you high as you typed? BUT if i understood it well enough then i think it means that the hobbit is all clear, green across the board and ready to be made. this gives joy to my heart!
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Why? because folks can't swallow the many worlds model of the universe? Other than that I don't see how the two are related, well maybe the paganism. Everyone who hated watching Hobbits staring into each other's tearful eyes for a million hours needs the Elric Saga to be filmed. What I see in my head is glorious, and would alienate the crap outta rings fans like a Tori Amos fan at a Gorgoroth performance. BLOOD AND SOULS FOR MY LORD ARIOCH!!!!
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And his tall pointy hat, son!
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I have read her stuff for years. Cyteen is a huge favorite of mine. I love the Chanur series as well. Pyanfar forever!
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Well, Elric isn't really comparable to the golden compass seriously. And the heart of the tale is taking from Finnish mythology. Tolkien also had a similar story about a blood drinking cursed blade in the Silm. called Gurthang and I think at the end of both JRR's and MM's stories Stormbring and Gurthang actually talk. I know at the end Stormbringer after it takes Elric's life at last after killing all his friends it say's "Farewell My Friend, I was a thousand times more evil than though..." or some such thing. In the silm - after Turin finds out he has been frakking his little sister and the sword also has killed all his friends the sword says "Yes, I will drink thy blood gladly and slay you swiftly" or some such thing. Both Moorecock and Tolkien probably took this story from that Finnish epic that I can never remember the name too.. or some anglo saxon myth. Anyway, I would love to see Elric on the big screen... but I would also love to see something from the Annuls of the Black Company by Gene Wolf. I loved those books. As for the rest of you picking at whatever author and saying "they aren't that great" et et. Really - who the hell are you? You are do-nothings and know-nothings incapable of creating your own art, and when you through wasting oxygen on this planet and you are dead and buried... no one will ever have an idea of who you are, or what you ever thought. So your opinions are ultimately void of any weight or credibility whatsoever. If I were you I'd figure out something else to do with my life other than pick at the bones of the gods and giants of literature.
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The Witcher novels by Sapkowski?
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But I think Gene Wolfe is among the greatest living writers of fiction today. The Book Of the New Sun is my fucking Bible, is Black Company within that continuity? As far as the critics on this board, i am unaffected by people getting it or not getting it. Everyone I have given that series to becomes a devotee or cunt get thru the first 100 pages. Reading those books with the companions that others have written is a trip.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 3:28 p.m. CST
I need find out about the Finnish origins of these stories.
by the Green Gargantua
Like now!!
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nice deconstruction of Pan's Labyrinth you guys have. Honestly though the story felt like an afterthought when I watched it, the only things I would agree with would be child's innocence (done better in Tideland, too bad Tideland was just a hard movie to get through) and the power of imagination. Everything else was just tossed in and didn't have any message at all. The first half hour or so of the film was good. But then it turned into a GDT Creature Feature, wow omg so deep he's using spanish civil war. He could have tossed in any backdrop in this film and it would have been the same. The worst victim of this, however, is Hellboy 2. Where scenes would just randomly come up just to show off a new shitty looking GDT monster.
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just a mish-mash of cool ideas. This guy isn't a director. He belongs at WETA or ILM or something.
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I just really dislike him and think he's overrated. As for the Hobbit, I mentioned Bilbo has been cast. Now who would it be? Sir Ian McKellen said that people would be pleased. And it's been confirmed by Tennant that it's not him....:/ Maybe James McAvoy? I hope its Martin Freeman.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 4:42 p.m. CST
The Finnish story that inspired Tolkien and Moorcock
by the Green Gargantua
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo
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But I'm not so sure about Tolkien being Mr. Racist. Really?! you'd prob. know more about that as you're there first-hand in England, his backyard etc-I just never quite picked that up. <p> He did have 'that Northern Thing' going, certainly-Rohan etc Teutonic Lords/Vikings vs. those Swert Easterlings(Huns?) and Haradrim(Black people? Moslems?)-it's hard to say for sure. <p> I always found Minas Tirith=Constantinople in the early Middle Ages, esp. during the times of Heraclius and Leo III, holding off the Moslem hordes while the rest of Europe was doing the 'fuck your donkey and marry his owner' routine out Rhine way. But I degress. <p> What exactly WAS the reason Tolkien wrote in that part about the Giant Robots though? Didn't seem to fit-
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You know it's true. Search your feelings.
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Search your Feelings. You know it's true.
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Wayy up there. Got it!
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The Elric series was optioned by Universal, to be produced by the Weitz's. But the Weitz's tanked with the Golden Compass, so Universal lost it's nerve to do another epic fantasy (should've done Elric first; enough of this kiddie bullshit fantasy fare).
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As much as I love Del Toro's other stuff.. I did think Hellboy 1 and 2 were weak in parts (I love the comics) and.. they shoulda gone full CG on him IMO. I missed seeing his craggy face and tiny hooved feets.
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I'll give my response in the form of a headline: "Area nobody with zero film experience gives career advice to world renowned director Guillermo Del Toro. World laughs, feels pity." I especially like how you say his creatures are poorly thought out, just a mish mash of cool ideas. That's what creature design is.
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But there was Much more flash and bang, if you like, esp. in the second, than storyline or whatever. GDT does GREAT set-pieces and characters set-ups, the Goldbug Army, the Plant God-but what did it add up to?? You got me.
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...to get a response.<p> Tolkien was no more of a racist than most people of his day. I've found that most people who levy that charge against him are either 1.) Smelly-assed trollers or 2.) Smelly-assed ignorant trollers. Funny...there is no in-between.<p>Screw it, I have some Tolkien minutia that needs wallowing around in.
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You got it right there. I do just a moderate amount of art and publication stuff and I get nitpicked to death all the time by idiots who don't even understand the very basics of what I am doing. I cannot imagine actually being a talent on the level of GDT and having to listen to this drivel. Most people here aren't even worthy enough to suck his toe lint and they are bashing him. It's utterly ridiculous. I won't even go into the Tolkien, but as far as the "racist" comments? In your book every successful white guy in this world is ultimately a racist unless he admits he is and prostrates himself on the ground and whimpers about what his great great great grandaddy might have done to some other guys' great great grandaddy. And after all it's very worthwhile to sit around and conjecture that Tolkien created goblins not based on ancient nordic mythology but on his gut hatred of Arabs. As far all this stuff about Shakespeare and Chaucer and all that? Where do people come up with this stuff? That's not from the heart. Who here really loves to read Chaucer and Shakespeare on a regular basis? I won't deny it's not great literature... but I am sorry - I can name half a dozen authors from the last two centuries alone that I think were that brilliant... Tolkien would be one of them, but who can read Great Expectations by Dickens and NOT think that's at least as good as Shakespeare? Who can read any of the best works of Truman Capote and not just be rocked by the brilliant writing. Or say... East of Eden by Steinbeck, or Treasure of the Sierra Madre by B. Traven my god, there are sooo many great works of literature that give ANYONE a run for their money, that regulating any of them as "inferior" to Shakespeare or Chaucer or whatever... is just silly.
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Sept. 9, 2009, 8:47 p.m. CST
The issue about Tolkein being high literature is about validati
by toadkillerdog
Having our views, our thoughts our beliefs validated by others. The reason why so many care that Tolkein is considered literature and high literature at that, is because they want validation from the mainstream that their entertainments are more than just a niche enjoyment, but should be recognized for the greatness it is. Two digressions are needed here. A few years ago, Time magazine had a year long feature to determine who the most important people of the 20th century were. It was a voting feature open to the world. Guess who received the most votes? Ataturk. If some do not know who he is - that is understandable, he is the father of modern day Turkey. A genuine hero to the Turks. But almost completely unknown outside of musty history books. The Turks wanted to change that. They wanted validation that their reverence for Ataturk, the man who created their country- a secular Islamic powerhouse of a country that straddles the east and west, deserves to be recognized for his greatness. It was funny and touching and a bit pathetic all at once. You can not force the world to accept your hero -even if you truly believe his exploits deserve such. <p> My second digression is about comic books. I loved them growing up and still retain a deep affection for them. As a teen I was convinced that Iron Man 128 (the Demon in a Bottle story) was literary greatness in comic form. In my twenties I thought even more of Cerebus the Aardvark - and I still believe that for a span of four years Dave Sim created the greatest and most literate comic that has ever been made - it was indeed literature. But even then, I never believed it was high literature. <p> It does not diminish my love of Cerebus because it is not embraced by the world, or hell even the comic book community as the greatest and most literate comic ever. But I do understand the desire for validation.<p> Tolkein should not be denigrated because he created popular fantasy. But perspective should be exercised when comparing authors. It is always subjective. As a five year old Dr Seuss was my favorite author, and if I had known the concept, I would say he created the highest literature in the world. But Hell I was five, and was more concerned about not missing Lancelot Link secret chimp than whether or not Seuss was the equal of Dostoevsky if I had even known who Dostoeevky was - and I didn't. He could still be my favorite (he is not btw), but if I were to suggest he was the equal of Dostoevsky now, then my perspective could justifiably be called into question. But not my love. So who really cares about validation from others. If you feel Tolkein is high literature, then for you he is.
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The subject should have read
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Lost Jarv says "Actually, I had to study some of Tolkien's essays at university. Especially that fucking boring one about old English and Beowulf. Tolkien is arguably one of the most important academics of the 20th Century" Sigh. Looks like some Lady TATOW is in order. Best pay attention now, as you obviously were not while at University....You say: "However, and it's a big however, he was not a novelist". Um, so what? Irrelevant and not entirely true anyway, although I agree LOTR is not what I'd call a novel....You say "LOTR was intended as principally an academic study." Wrong. Untrue. Way off. He wrote it because his publisher asked for "more Hobbits" and he began to develop a part of the "history" of the Elves he had created decades before. He wrote it in a style that pleased him, that recaptured what he longed for and felt was missing in the writing of his day. That style included ideas of chivalry, chaste romance, and moral absolutism. You say "The man himself despised people who liked it for the romance aspects of it." Wrong, utterly untrue. Where did you get such an idea? It is so wrong, I can't help but be curious as to how such an idea got into your head. And of course I will probably be sorry for asking. (!) You say " So before you get into "intended to write entertainment", bear in mind that a) he didn't and b)this is the Intentional Fallacy at work, so it doesn't matter what he intended." Sigh again. A. He did. He did indeed intend to write entertainment, as well as to move his audience (as someone already mentioned, greenleaf I think). B. Many brighter minds than yours would argue that it does indeed matter what an author has intended but I will leave that alone since it doesn't figure into my reason for responding to your amusingly ignorant post. You say "Whoever compared Tolkien to Shakespeare, by the way, is hereby banished to the corner and forced to wear the conical hat with a D on the front." Ahh, that's telling them. Frankly, I despise arguments in which comparisons are drawn between creative individuals so I will cease on this point. You say "Finally, lets not forget that he was a dreadful racist." I see we have reached the troll portion of your post. You are wrong again, most exceedingly, but my dear friend morGoth has answered this mistake of yours already..... Cheers, mellyn! Nothing like a bit of actual GOOD hobbit news, to draw certain lurkers out, eh? So glad that New Line has had their greedy faces rubbed in it again.
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not gene wolf. Black company would be kickass on the big screen. <p> if the golden compass is why we won't get an elric movie then that just compounds my hatred of that shit movie.
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And it indeed would be a kick ass movie that will never be made. <p> Glen Cook can really write.
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-made for great times on the Road w/ the Archies, the Brady Kids, the Osmonds, Spatula Logic and the Patridge Family. Even Mickey Dolenz could't top that bill.
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Amen
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Fred is once again in awe of your intellect and ability to communicate. Fred wishes he could write like that, but alas Fred is just a humble wart on the broad back of humanity.
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Hey buddy! It has been a while. I have missed that 'humble wart' line! Are you ready for some football? The Steelers are loaded again. I am sure everyone in the Burgh is fired up for the game tomorrow.
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Fred always wanted to shout that in a Hobbit TB - Hee hee. <p> Yes, the burgh s fired up. It is Black and Gold day tomorrow like it everyday before a game. Then the G20 is coming, Fred gets to work from home when all those world leaders are here because the streets will be shut down. <p>Oh, Fred should say something Hobbitses related - got it. Fred wonders if the will have CGI feet this time. <p> C'ya Toadkillerdog.
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Anyone who has read his letters knows this. It's a silly accusation; one that's often made through the prism of modern sensibilities.
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I'll definitely second that one.
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The Steelers know no boundaries!<p> Stillerz! That's how we pronounce it in the Burgh!
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Steelers are great -my second favorite team. But Gotta pull for Big Blue! The Jints!
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I'm sick of the horned toads and lumpy dinosaurs that pass for dragons in movies today. Smaug better be done right. Anyone seen the new dragon Disney built for the Fantasmic show in Disneyland? THAT kinda right.
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There is so much negativity on this site. Can't we just let the movie happen? You don't have to like or love it, but it's going to happen anyway. I want to take my niece to this (she's already seen the Rankin-Bass version). C'mon guys, lay off!
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Cause he sure fucking did a great Kong AM I RIGHT!!!
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actually, I was paying attention at university. My point was that Tolkien was an academic first (and a very fucking important one) and a writer second. He wasn't someone like, say, Proust. <P>I keep saying that I think Tolkien/ LOTR etc was literature. Fuck's sake, do try to keep up. <p>I own up to trolling with the racism comment. <P>Seeing as you didn't read my next post I will reiterate it: Comparisons between Shakespeare and anyone else are fallacious horseshit. Shakespeare was prolific without equal, and with consistently outstanding quality. His work is still performed, adapted, and his influence on modern English is unrivaled. Any comparison to Shakespeare is spurious horseshit. That was my point, and that is why anyone that makes that comparison is to sit in the corner with the Dunces cap. Not to mention the fact that it isn't a fucking competition. Which is pretty much exactly what I said below.<P>Re- The intentional fallacy. Seeing as you obviously weren't paying attention in college let me lay it out for you using the example used by the original authors: Tolstoy's The Idiot. <P>The argument is that in literary criticism (which is what we're engaged in) the work itself is what should be judged and criticised. Tolstoy wrote the idiot intending utterly to produce something else. Does this devalue it as literature? does this devalue it as art? or, perhaps, the internal content of the work can speak for itself. So why you would want to give further weight to a work such as LOTR (Which is rich and deep enough in its own right) is beyond me. Are you insecure about Tolkien? I agree that the current rape of his unpublished work is not doing his legacy any favours, but surely what was produced in his lifetime should be enough? <P>Nice try, though. <P>Finally, < p > without spaces makes life much easier.
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never mind. For some reason your username slipped over my head. <P>There's no point being reasonable with you.
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never mind. For some reason your username slipped over my head. <P>There's no point with this as you are never going to read any criticism of your beloved Tolkien.
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Doh! You are right, Wolfe did Shadow of the Torturer or whatever that book was that I just didn't get. I actually am not a big fan of Wolfe I don't know why I mixed him up Mr. Cooke. I think the Annuls would be awesome for the big screen. They are very episodic and easily split into multiple movies. I imagine though that someone will take a crack at Wheel of Time or Thomas Covenant before either Elric or Croaker see the light of day. I don't know whether to dread or look forward to Wheel of Time... how do you make a fantasy epic based on a crazy guy and 10 women standing around bitching at him and "looking petulant" ?
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When someone quotes another TB'er to validate a point, realises that they don't actually have anything even remotely resembling an argument, then retreat from said point by attempting to be above addressing it. <p>For Lost Jarv <p> by elanor Sep 9th, 2009 08:51:16 PM <p>"You say "Whoever compared Tolkien to Shakespeare, by the way, is hereby banished to the corner and forced to wear the conical hat with a D on the front." Ahh, that's telling them. Frankly, I despise arguments in which comparisons are drawn between creative individuals so I will cease on this point." <P>I also despise when someone states that another TB'er is incorrect in their opinion without offering any differing judgement on their part. <p>"You say "The man himself despised people who liked it for the romance aspects of it." Wrong, utterly untrue. Where did you get such an idea? It is so wrong, I can't help but be curious as to how such an idea got into your head. And of course I will probably be sorry for asking. (!)"
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was only the inspiration of Turin Turambar I believe. The actual work that inspired Tolkien was the great Finnish poem The Kalevala. It also influenced Gary Gygax and D&D.
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Search your feelings. You know it's true.
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But his work is definitely enjoyed by racist. It is on the the must read list of the Aryan Brotherhood prison gang, along with Mein Kampf, Neitzche, Machiavelli, Sun Tzu. <p> Excluding the drivel of Hitler's Mein Kampf, I have to admire their reading selection. One gang member read about a 400-year old secret writing method devised by Sir Francis Bacon. It took the FBI's cryptography department to finally figure out how they were passing messages. <P> Oh you whacky AB.
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Del Toro isn't a good director just a special effects guy? Pan's Labyrinth's story felt like an afterthought? You are officially the 5th dentist. You clearly are a contrarian who likes to bag on anything successful.
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I don’t want to be negative for no reason but I just didn’t care for Pan’s Labyrinth all that much. I like the basic idea of mixing the two worlds but the execution was so lackluster. The movie actually spends very little time in the fantasy world which ultimately leaves a somewhat unoriginal movie about the horrors of war.
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I haven’t studied English Literature in at university but do read a lot of books. In general I don’t like sci-fi or fantasy because they are so poorly written. I was pleasantly surprised when reading The Hobbit because that actually had real literary value. But comparing him with Shakespeare? Get real!
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as Vermithrax Pejorative from the 1981 movie Dragonslayer. In my eyes, that's the best dragon ever conceived on film.
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Sept. 10, 2009, 9:21 a.m. CST
Del Toro's favorite Dragons are Maleficent and Vermithrax
by Ringwearer9
He actually said that. Disney's Maleficent dragon, from "Sleeping Beauty" and the Vermithrax dragon from "Dragonslayer".
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This<p> is <p> just <p> a<p> test
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Is that what someone up there said? The movie with those weird little dudes who live in the fireplace? That movie scared that shit out of me when I was eight. Everyone says that little kids shouldn't be allowed to watch scary movies, and that's all wrong - even a really bad and poorly produced TV movie can be really, really fucking scary if you're only eight or nine and it has the right "hook". Little dudes who come out of the fireplace is a great hook when you're eight. As are pod people and It's Alive! babies.
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I would rather see GDT make his own decisions about what the fuck he wants to make and I (since I don't get in the habit of speaking for others) would like to see you free yourself of your hobbity prejudices and fears. I mean, what the hell dude did a hobbit rape your mom or something? All that angst can't be good for your digestive system, go grab some Pepto.
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If you don't care what the fuck are you posting for? Talkbacks are for people who inherently care - they have some kind of feeling on the subject. If you didn't care, you would have seen the title of the article and skipped merrily on by and read something else. Which means, you DO care, and I'm so glad you care enough to drop on by and insult people who don't agree with you. After all, that's how you earn respect in this world, hurling insults, right? I mean, to hell with all that "being nice" and "the golden rule" crap. I think you should put yourself on imdb and insult people to watch your popularity go up.
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Assuming Ian Holme won't be reprising, please make this happen.
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Well not really. But honestly man, if you weren't a fellow geek you wouldn't have a clue about Hobbits. You wouldn't even know they exist. You're just mad somebody came up with the idea before you did.
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He is a hobbit. Ok he's probably not. He is very hobbit - y though.
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Damn I'm so torn!
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Dear Lost Jarv,<p> Thanks for your response, impolite though it was.<p> I do applaud you for two things, the welcome paragraph-creating instruction and for owning up to trolling with the racist comments. <p> You say: "Actually, I was paying attention at university. My point was that Tolkien was an academic first (and a very fucking important one) and a writer second." <p> Thanks for that clarification. It comes off far differently than your original statement that "...Tolkien is arguably one of the most important academics of the 20th Century. However, and it's a big however, he was not a novelist".<p> It now appears that you merely meant he started out an academic, and made a considerable contribution as one, before he became a writer. And it's true that it wasn't completely good for his academic reputaion that he became so well known as a writer of popular literature.<p> You say " I keep saying that I think Tolkien/ LOTR etc was literature. Fuck's sake, do try to keep up." Well, for fuck's sake, I never said you didn't. So keep up yourself, for fuck's sake. <p> You say "The argument is that in literary criticism (which is what we're engaged in) the work itself is what should be judged and criticised." You may feel you are engaged in literary criticism but I am not. I am engaged in criticizing inaccuracies I found in your posts about Tolkien's history and writing. Are you calling your TB posts "literature"? LOL<p>You say "Tolstoy wrote the idiot intending utterly to produce something else. Does this devalue it as literature? does this devalue it as art? or, perhaps, the internal content of the work can speak for itself. So why you would want to give further weight to a work such as LOTR (Which is rich and deep enough in its own right) is beyond me." It's beyond me, too, Lost Jarv. In which of my sentences did I "give further weight" to LOTR?<p>You ask "Are you insecure about Tolkien?" Me? No.<p>You say "I agree that the current rape of his unpublished work is not doing his legacy any favours, but surely what was produced in his lifetime should be enough?" I guess you are referring to Christopher's output? I have not read a lot of that, but what I have read I have enjoyed. Not meant for mass consumption of course. Fairly tedious stuff but sprinkled with gems. And I would assume the author's son has a right to do what he wishes. I agree that Tolkien has perhaps lost some fans who dove into "The Children of Hurin" (for example) expecting "more Hobbits" but I don't fear for his legacy.<p>And now I wonder if you would answer a question posed by Mattman Returns in which he asked for evidence to back up your statement that "the man himself despised people who liked it for the romance aspects of it.". You replied "...Give me a second and I'll link to it, I'll just have to find it online, give me about an hour (if work doesn't interfere)."<p> Have you had a chance to find support for or explain that one?<p>And finally, you say "The legend of the man has overtaken the novel- and you're all displaying it." Rather than assume I know what you are talking about with this one, I would ask you to clarify.<p> Thanks in advance
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I'm still a LOTR fanboy, I think TDK is one of the best, if not the best, comic book movies ever. I'm actually genuinely excited for Avatar...etc. Douche. I knew it would be tough to defend my argument against Del Toro here. It's full of people who worship Pan's Labyrinth. The spanish civil war setting was just thrown in to try to give us a message of the horrors of war, but it felt like a quickly written afterthought with no strong meaning at all really. And I still think he's only a glorified creature-feature director.
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much better choice than James McAvoy I think.
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No- my initial statement was entirely accurate. Tolkien was an academic, that happened to be a novelist. He was not primarily a novelist. I do understand how you misconstrued my original statement. Hence the clarification. <P>Secondly, you are being deliberately obtuse. You clearly had never heard of the intentional fallacy. My post is not literature. Of course it isn't, and frankly that remark of yours is bordering on obnoxious. Discussing the novels written by Tolkien, his intentions in writing the novels, and making vacuous comparisons to Shakespeare is arguably literary criticism. I fail to understand why you dismiss the point I made. Perhaps because you were ignorant of the theory? or perhaps because you were looking to score a cheap point? <P>RE weight: This was also in response to your palpable insecurity regarding giving critical weight to the intentions of the author and was in response to your clear ignorance of the point before. <P>Christopher Tolkien can do what he likes with his father's writing. That is his right. But he is, even by your own admission, doing the legacy no favours. <P>To be honest with you- work did interfere and I completely forgot. I'll go and get it now. <P>The legend of the man comment was about the telepathic sages above canonising the man and his work, rather than just the work. I probably curtailed the sentence too much- so mea culpa.
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I never read it. But I'd imagine it wouldn't have been as...well written as J.R.R.'s work seeing as he was also an academic.
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.. has forced me to dig out my old Daw PBs for a re-read. Man, those Whelan covers were so sweet! Remember back in olden times when guys like Frazetta, Bama and Whelan would mesmerize you into buying a fantasy/adventure/sci-fi book 'no questions asked'? Alas.. art is dead.
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Not one fucking dragon can compare, how fucking crazy is that? Reign of Turd tried and failed to copy her design.
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....Del Toro's favourite dragon designs are indeed the ones from Sleeping Beauty and Dragonslayer.<P>I wouldn't like to see Martin Freeman cast as a younger Ian Holm though. That would be as laughable in all the wrong ways.
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Will be Bilbo Baggins. BET. Why do you find it laughable Cervantes? He does in fact resemble a younger Ian Holm, more so than the other contenders.
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I do admit this is getting tedious instead of enlightening.<p> Dear Lost Jar,<p> You say "No- my initial statement was entirely accurate. Tolkien was an academic, that happened to be a novelist. He was not primarily a novelist. I do understand how you misconstrued my original statement. Hence the clarification."<p> Hmm, I agree he was not primarily a novelist. But I still do not agree that your initial statement was "entirely accurate" (although it was generally accurate) because Tolkien was both an academic and a writer. Has he has not earned the right (in your eyes) to be called a writer? If not, then we simply disagree about this. I would not call him a novelist, because I don't think the majority of his written work fits the description of "novel".<p> As for "intentional fallacy", would someone please step up and engage Lost Jarv in a debate on the merits of intentional fallacy, because I have no interest in doing so. I don't care if you think me ignorant or insecure. I do not seek your approval. If I want to engage in literary criticism of LOTR (or other Tolkien works) on this board, I will criticize the work itself.<p> You say "My post is not literature. Of course it isn't, and frankly that remark of yours is bordering on obnoxious." Remember the LOL at the end of that sentence? That was meant to be a joke.<p> You say "Discussing the novels written by Tolkien, his intentions in writing the novels, and making vacuous comparisons to Shakespeare is arguably literary criticism." Sigh again. I do not consider his work to be novels, nor was I discussing them with you. Others were. I was not. I did offer instruction to you regarding Tolkien's known intentions for writing LOTR. I made no comparisons to other writers, vacuous or otherwise. I have not yet engaged in literary criticism with you or anyone on this TB<p> You say "I fail to understand why you dismiss the point I made. Perhaps because you were ignorant of the theory? or perhaps because you were looking to score a cheap point?" Like I said, suggesting that you might be calling your posts literature was a joke.<p> You say "RE weight: This was also in response to your palpable insecurity regarding giving critical weight to the intentions of the author and was in response to your clear ignorance of the point before." Once again, my post was not a criticism of Tolkien's work. Sorry if you took it that way. I corrected your statement that "LOTR was intended as principally an academic study." I'm sorry, but you are wrong about this. If you want to try to offer evidence in support of your statement, be my guest.<p> You say "Christopher Tolkien...is...by your own admission, doing the legacy no favours." Nope. I wrote "I don't fear for his legacy." But perhaps we differ in what constitutes his legacy.
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Sept. 10, 2009, 9:20 p.m. CST
Will Gollum match the look of the Gollum in the LOTR films?
by Orionsangels
You know how computer graphics get advance every year. They can make Gollum look even more realistic in the Hobbit. The question is, will they go all out or will they hold back to match the LOTR films. The same way Toy Story 2 held back in 99 to match the 95 film.
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I really hope Bilbo is not yet cast. Iam Holm *is* Bilbo. He's a hobbit. The age factor will fit perfectly. He can be made to look younger. We already HAD a young hero in Frodo. We're supposed to have an older hero in The Hobbit anyway. <BR><BR> I don't know why I care...splitting it into 2 movies is such a silly idea. There's a chance it can be pulled off, but pretty unlikely. It's just not that good of a story compared to the rest. It's extremely straight forward and simple.
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an after effect of the Weta mates spending all that time tinkering on Avatar with James Cameron. I expect to see some advances in the movements and physicality at least. But they are probably pooling all their excitement on The Mirkwood Spiders, Beorn, and of course Smaug himself.
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He's far to old to play Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit". The dear man is 78 for pity's sake. Bilbo is 50 when the story opens which is still young in Hobbit terms, as they don't "come of age" (comparable to 21 for modern humans) until 33. Plus it's quite a physical role - fighting spiders, climbing trees, running from goblins, 'barrel riding', etc. etc. Sure they could use a double but why, except for dangerous stunts? <p> Besides, I think they've already stated that he won't be returning in "the main Bilbo role", which leaves room for him to reprise as 100+ year old Bilbo somewhere in the bridge movie.
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He's far to old to play Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit". The dear man is 78 for pity's sake. Bilbo is 50 when the story opens which is still young in Hobbit terms, as they don't "come of age" (comparable to 21 for modern humans) until 33. Plus it's quite a physical role - fighting spiders, climbing trees, running from goblins, 'barrel riding', etc. etc. Sure they could use a double but why, except for dangerous stunts? <p> Besides, I think they've already stated that he won't be returning in "the main Bilbo role", which leaves room for him to reprise as 100+ year old Bilbo somewhere in the bridge movie.
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Didn't Dostoyevsky write The Idiot, and not Tolstoy? <p>Ian Holm IS too old. Bilbo is supposed to be 50 at the time of the story. Therefore, casting a good-looking eighteen year old will be perfectly suitable...
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Dostoevsky wrote the Idiot. Not one of my favorite Dostoevsky books - I prefer the Gambler, Crime & Punishment and Notes from the Underground. <P> But it does provide a good lesson - us TBers really don't know shit about what we talk about.
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Fuck, I can't even comment on the stupidity of us Tbers without making a stupid typo to prove my point.
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Herb Trimped over himself while drawing Killraven. The end.
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Someone's bound to take that good looking 18 year old crack seriously, but lol anyway. <p> You of all people know that there's plenty of folx in here that wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it walked up and offered to shine their feet. <p> You also know that a thirty-something modern human correlates nicely with a 50ish Hobbit. And Ian Holm IS too old to play Bilbo in The Hobbit time frame for a number of reasons, and you know that all-too-well as well. <p> Trubba Not
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And his feared sword: Seersucker II<p> Lets make it happen!
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I will be very dissapionted if Martin Freeman isn't cast as Bilbo. There is not a better fit for the character around. Period.
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Boy, I say boy wearing the bunny suit, fetch me my sword so I can smite you!
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pulled an Avatar and made Ian Holm mo-cap Bilbo and make him look younger in the film.
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I just popped LOTR in urban dictionary and was BEFUDDLED by some of the terms "a poo punching, fudge packing professional" WOW!
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... standing on 'the hipness scale', but what the heck is an anal ring?
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I'm skeptical of two films, if it's breaking the book in half. Seems like it will feel weird. And if the rumors about the 2nd film being in between The Hobbit and LoR, that also makes me skeptical. You want a series to go out with a bang, not with an unnecessary interstitial story.
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My understanding is that there will be a third film with all the supplemental stuff. I could be wrong though. I love Del Toro too; but I would personally rather see Jackson do all of these for the sake of continuity. Del Toro needs to focus his attentions on the Lovecraft film he's talked about.. for like a decade! At this rate I'll be a drooling old codger in a man-diaper by the time that thing hits the theatre.
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'The Hobbit' is a difficult book to adapt and GDT and Jackson have been clear about wanting two films to do it, along with Gandalf's stuff. Its TWO MOVIES of the Hobbit. NO THIRD film has been announced. Most of us knew this, right?
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and... http://tinyurl.com/lfwzyc
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I thought it was called an *anus* or, a *sphincter*... hey, if the shoe fits...
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Does that mean the Tolkiens themselves are going out and physically helping people with their money? Or just donating it to a bunch of stupid charities? Unless they're doing it themselves its not noteworthy...at all.
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...yes, that's 70 + 8 = 78. Far too tender an age to be mucking around New Zealand for, what is it, 370 straight days of shooting? Lumme but I wish he could play Bilbo again but it's just not realistic to pretend he can. Hope he at least gets to play the older Bilbo for a few scenes anyhoo...that can all be filmed elswhere.
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Does that mean the Tolkiens themselves are going out and physically helping people with their money? Or just donating it to a bunch of stupid charities? Unless they're doing it themselves its not noteworthy...at all. except for the hobbit moving forward, that's cool
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...Christopher Tolkien digging taters for charity.<p> When speaking of very large sums of money, it's not easy to dirctly supervise where/how all of your donated moolah gets spent. So, is it better to just hold on to the money or try to do some good with it in this world. Honestly, some people are utterly incapable of recognizing good works unless it fits their personal perception of how it should be done.
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... is really kind of beside the point anyway. New Line OWED them the money and tried to weasled out of paying up. They pulled the same bullshit on PJ & Co. who sued for breach of contract and won their case.
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New Line, to whom I still give credit for making the then risky decision to let PJ shoot 3 movies, has had at least three lawsuits filed against them for stingy accounting after their enormous financial success with LOTR; PJ, a bunch of New Zealand LOTR actors, and the Tolkien trust.<p> Each settled for an "undisclosed amount" before getting to court. The PJ lawsuit became the most acrimonious, with Shaye and Lynne swearing their relationship with him was over.<p> All hail to Harry Sloan of MGM for mitigating that feud so that pre-production could start on The Hobbit.<p> This is my take on the current state of script-plan for The Hobbit. I am totally speculating, based on various pieces of news I've read. Feel free to correct me. (like I need to encourage anyone!!!)<p> The way I understand it, the early thought was just to do The Hobbit as we know it from the book.<p> In discussing those logistics, they considered the difference in tone between the lighter Hobbit and the darker LOTR. If LOTR did not exist as a recent movie entity, I think they would just have made The Hobbit. But since LOTR existed, and using McKellen and perhaps other LOTR actors as the same characters was a tempting option, they had to keep in mind some sort of need to reconcile certain aspects of Middle Earth. Also, they were interested in using the material from the LOTR appendix, to which they have the rights.<p> So then the thought was to do The Hobbit, and follow it with "a bridge movie". But once they began to get these story elements in script form, or at least outline form, they found a way to incorporate or weave the darker LOTR-related events into the time frame of The Hobbit story, but the result was too long for one movie.<p> So then the idea evolved to making two movies, with the Hobbit story the main narrative, but incorporating various other related events in concurrent Middle Earth history, so that at the end of the second Hobbit movie, we are brought up to date (as far as need be) for the events in "Fellowship".
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Let me add to the clamor for an Elric project. Hell, it'd make a kick ass setting for a MMO as well. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser also would be a great fantasy buddy picture.
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Sept. 13, 2009, 4:20 p.m. CST
A little bit off the reservation (I hope this doesn't kill the t
by The_Countess
Does Harry have kin in Norway. Mars Ambassador and I have to know. See below. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/11/julius-andreas-gimli-arn_n_284276.html
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Sept. 13, 2009, 4:25 p.m. CST
Elric is bad ass, but his other incarnation, Corum is
by the Green Gargantua
Pretty fucking amazing too in concept. District 9 had me reflecting on that series due to the alien hand he had for most the film.
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The Lord of the Rings was one giant action scene that missed ALL nuances of the novels. This will be similar, having no soul or sense of wonder that the book had. I would rather they not make it.
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I think you are totally wrong. I thought they did a great job... except for the dreadfulness of a few major mistakes like Aragorn falling off the cliff, or Frodo repeatedly holding out the ring in the palm of his hand and crying.
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Sept. 13, 2009, 10:15 p.m. CST
Bring on the mythical midgets... I never read any of the books,
by ChuckImania
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Harry had written them off too, not reading a single page of the Harry potter books. I don't know for sure but who wants to read kids' fantasy and pagan too using witchcraft, when in Lion Witch and the wardrobe and all the other kids' book, witchcraft is evil. I didn't read them because I know it was ripped off of the "Books of Magic" and LOTR. The only thing that keeps me seeing the movie is the production value and the direction when I prefer seeing HP6 over TF2 and GIJOE which unlike most hypocrites who gave TF2 400+ million domestic to see MFox's legs, I did not see either. Didn't even dl them.
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First of, they made dumbledore in the the last HP6 act just like McKelleans Gandalf. The expressions were exactly the same. How can anyone say Tolkien isn't literature. There's a Cliff notes on LOTR in bookstores. LOTR pretty much started the fantasy aisle in bookstores. Hobbit is a kid's book for kids in the 1950's. There is a scene where Thorin is trying to shoot a deer down with bow and arrow for food. While is "survivor", the guy gets dissed and screamed at for knifing a wild pig. Tolkien was a professor of linguistics, knew several scandinavian languages. The movies touched many of the themes and nuances in the books I couldn't believe they did so much. And it didn't fail while doing so like Watchmen. Those who still put down Tolkien and LOTR in these boards are sore losers because they were rooting for the Matrix movies or some other franchise back in 2001-2003. They were proven wrong. The LOTR films are forever film classics. And so are the books.
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but Kayne West hogged up all the copies
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dead! Har, de har, har... He was racist, where are the black hobbits?
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due to gentrification. I think Gollum was supposed to be a black hobbit though.
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Give me Conan, Kull, Solomon Kane, etc.
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I like Bran Mak Morn, he summoned the old ones. That is an awesome thing to do.
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...will there be a narrator like in the book?
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Orcus finished the 3 volume Conan reissue and it was a blast from Orcus' childhood. Orcus also has the Solomon Kane and Brak Mak (sp?) volumes lined up
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...WILL BE AS INSUFFERABLY DULL AS THOSE FUCKING HORRID RINGS MOVIES? MY GOD.
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I read this *weeks* ago elsewhere.
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Yes, the Harry Potter books are much less about fantasy, more about the three kids growing up. But those films are WAY better than the books, and if the creative team behind them had made the Lord of the Rings movies, maybe we wouldn't have had Legolas skateboarding down a staircase on a shield - and then doing the same thing in the third film because in the words of P Jackson 'it got such a great response'. And yes, the Golden Compass film stank, and was for kids, but the books really are a good read for adults too.
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I guess that makes me a dumbass. Found the Rings books AND movies long and boring. But The Hobbit I'm really looking forward to. Hurry up down there!
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................ <p> ............................<p>...................
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How anyone could consider them better than the books is a clear sign that they probably never really read the books or liked anything outside of the main story. Potter books thrived on the sub-plots in my opinion. The movies omitted those small plots, thus extinguishing the 'universe' presented in those children's fantasy books.<p> Just like with Potter, Tolkien's works will always be more whole in written form. Maybe people are more entertained with the movie versions. It happens...usually when someone hasn't read the written material. I however, having read the books, am never entertained as much by the movies. They miss the small nuances I enjoy. I can certainly enjoy them, in the case of LOTR, but when it comes to Potter, they've only gotten progressively worse, to the point of unwatchable (4+ were just crap).
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LOTR and Potter are both lengthy series with tons of nuance and sub-plot that is inevitably gonna fall by the wayside when people make films of them. Hell, that goes for ALL books unless the source is a short story that somebody actually has to expand on. People are gonna get disappointed. Some of my favorite bits were left out those movies and I guess I understand that most people aren't even willing to sit through a movie that's 2 hours long much less the epic that would be required to get everything in there. That being said, it drives me crazy when directors/writers complain and apologize because they have to omit certain things and then they turn around and make up their OWN junk to put in there. But.. everyone has an ego to feed, I guess. It's always been that way and always will be. Given the current art-by-committee and focus group system in place today, I think both of those franchises did a surprisingly good job putting that stuff on the screen. The books will always be there. The only thing I would add is... somebody make some kick-ass Elric and Lankhmar movies!
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Is what kills the Potter stuff for me, but I will give it a major fuck yea for pissing off fanatical Christian turd fuckers! Here's to you Harry Potter!
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It is infact a single novel divided into three parts, largely due to publishing concerns. Each of the three volumes was additionally divided into six books in a kind of serial novel arrangement similar to the way much of Charles Dicken's work was originally published in periodicals. Each of the six books in each of the three volumes had individual titles which were dropped prior to LOTR reaching it's final publication form. Once again: LOTR is not a "series" or a "trilogy", it is a single novel published in three parts.
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Sooo sloppy. Blech.
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Why all the fawning of Tolkien, its not like he was the first to write fantasy fiction, just the first to become popular. Where's Eddisons work on film? After all his work did inspire Tolkien, with his novels having the two towers, an all seeing eye, witch king, riders of the marches and an elf princess in love with a mortal man etc. But published decades before Tolkien.
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I have great respect for E.R. Eddison and think that his work as a novelist was ground-breaking. But, for whatever reason, he is not widely remembered. Tolkien is. Tolkien sited Eddison as a significcant influence and highly praised his work.
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Sept. 22, 2009, 2:37 p.m. CST
I just came in to say Harry Potter films are pure trash...
by TheWaqman
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