Cool News
A New Trailer For Michael Moore's CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY Is Now Online...
Merrick here...
Michael Moore's CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY hits on October 2, and a new trailer for it has been made available via the film's official site.
You can view the trailer via the embed below...
...which originates HERE.
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Oh boy this looks like a film Dems and Rep can get behind.
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whatever
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I dare you to prove me wrong.
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I havent slept for days. Suck my fat tits you german cock dancers.
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You know MM stands up against everything FOX News and it's talking heads hate. He fights for the little guy and you and me, the idiots at FOX don't give a crap about America.
Check out the Daily Show with Jon Steward (only of the latest shows) he has Fox spewing about how unpatriotic it is to protest and complain about the President in 2007 now they are calling protesters with guns patriots and sticking the knife in Obama every change the get. That is why MM rules and Fox (and the right )sucks.
I say this an I am a Conservative!!! Dump the GOP they have sold the country out to BIG OIL and BIG Business!
The DEMs are weak but the GOP are evil! -
Aug 21, 2009 11:19:16 AM CDT
Seems like something the left and the right can get behind imo
by polyh3dron
Only problem is that this was shot before the Obama Admin started bailing out the car companies.
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fight about on this topic. This talkback will just be autopilot personal insults toward Moore and Obama.
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This is going to devolve quickly into left vs. right psychobabble. If you hate Michael Moore, don't go see the movie. I would argue that his movie "Sicko" jump-started the health care reform debate in this country, but at the end of the day he just makes movies. If we can have intelligent debate, fine, but I foresee it just collapsing into rants and name-calling.
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I expect the freepers to resort to such intellectual arguments such as "he sucks" why? "cause he sucks cock, haha"
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This looks goood.
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This flick looks more politically even than F/911. More like Sicko, his past work. Conservatives don't mind watching Mike's films, but have some problems with a scene or three, and hate just shouting back at a screen.
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Get down!
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can be a real douche, completely unable to see past his own blinders on some issues. That said, based on this trailer, I'd have to say this appears interesting. A lot of conservatives wanted nothing to do with bailing out banks and insurance companies. Capitalism is still the best system, to bad the US stopped practicing it.
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heh.
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It's that time again. Time for all of you right-wing assholes and ignoramuses to provide proof of ONE, just one, Michael Moore lie from any of his films.
Hint: There isn't any. -
You mean other than the first post, dumbshit?
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Lemme grab some popcorn and watch the tin hat brigade duke this one out.
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No, the first post is just the stupid reactionary ten yr old who has nothing to say. Your post is the first inflammatory one. Crawl back under you bridge and maybe we can ignore it.
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Why oh why do they still put MIA's Paper Planes in trailers?! There should be a law that bans a song from appearing in more than one trailer. He could've at least used The Clash for once.
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Sigh.
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I've always said, even if the guy is overly theatrical and bias, if even 5% of the theories he throws out in any one of his films is genuinely true, just 5%, then things are more evil than I can even imagine. And, for me personally, it's hard to believe that everything he says is a complete and total overblown lie. It's just not realistic. Things are bad, and this guy makes compelling arguments every time. Liberal and or Conservative, shit. is. fucked. up. And he presents in the most compelling ways possible.
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Especially that now he's a millionaire, I do love the idea of him sticking it to these fucking crooks. Stick it to 'em good, Mike.
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Just mentioning his name makes everyone want to kill each other lol.
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Other than you own in which you call the man a douche. Fuck you.
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Aug 21, 2009 11:46:03 AM CDT
He must realize he's given people all the ammo they need...
by juansanchez
to call him a communist? I mean - he hates our system of health care, our system of commerce, are gun-loving culture... it's no longer a stretch to say he hates America. Let me be clear - I'M not saying he hates America, but if someone said he does you can no longer just write them off.
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Aug 21, 2009 11:47:31 AM CDT
There's A Difference Between being a Documentary Millionaire
by crow3711
Of which there is probably...literally...two in the world. Herzog (and hes not all docs) and Michael Moore, and being one of the tens of thousands white collar crooks and ceos and billionaires who get their money by stealing and fucking people over thorugh their companies. You're right, capitalism sure has worked well for Michael Moore, because he makes a product through hard work and on his own sweat, and releases a product that people pay to see. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not hypocrisy if hes attacking people who cling to capitalism but don't actually practice it, and still reap the benefits.
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You forgot our political system as well.
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He largely stepped out of the way of the lens in Sicko, and gave the stunts a rest, and the film was all the better for it. Sucks to see him leaning back on all his old, tired tricks.
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The last section (the stunt where he goes to Gitmo) made what would have been a great documentary an okay one. Moore's methods sometimes get in the way of his message.
All that aside, Roger and Me is one of the most gut-wrenching things I've ever seen. THAT is a great movie. -
Do you have a purpose for being here or are you just trying to pathetically pick a fight with an anonymous poster. I for one and tryign to brign the truth to light. And the truth is that 1) there are no lies or untruths in any MM film despite what a lot of people here believe, and 2) you're a giant, gaping, whining pussy.
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His docu-entertainment style is still fun to watch. I like seeing people squirm and be publicly humiliated for their shenanigans. Notice, you wouldn't see MM do a Food, Inc. documentary because he's a fat fuck, but still, he's entertaining and that counts for something.
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bring faceless corporate & government bureaucrats face to face with the people who are affected by their policies. I agree that some of his stunts make it easier for people who disagree with him to dismiss everything he says. But without them he'd be Frontline with ambush interviews.
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I watched the trailer and thought "Wow, a Moore film both Reps and Dems will get behind!" Then I looked at the title. What did the bail outs, Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac, propping up GM, etc. have to do with free market Capitalism? That's all closer to Socialism! Leave it to a leftist propogandist to point at socialism run amuck and call it Capitalism.
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was meant to keep as many average people as possible from being swallowed up by a collapse of quasi-criminal collusion amongst the biggest names in banking. That environment wasn't free market capitalism either.
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attack Moore but don't attack his message, how brave they are. Ignore him and his tactics and look further than you nose.
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Aug 21, 2009 12:14:36 PM CDT
I tell ya, even when I agree with Moore I find it hard to like h
by juansanchez
He just comes off like a douche. Can no one properly lampoon this guy? Was Zucker even trying with An American Carol?
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...and I like watching people who hate him go into apoplectic fits of rage when watching his films...because they can't beat him at his own game. He's a smug bastard, but he's a funny smug bastard.
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You don't even know what socialism is, go read a book first then come back and point out the critiques of socialism. You forget the GW Bush asked Congress to do the first bail out, according to you Bush was/is a socialist.
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And truths and half-truths. And I'd say the same thing is true about 90% of documentaries, to one degree or another.While I don't think the problem is free market captalism--I think it's big business/big government collusion that, if anything, is more pronounced now than it was under Bush--the trailer looks to be one for a well-made movie. Michael Moore seems right back in Roger and Me form. Might have even been working out a little.
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to support this anti-capitalism ideas, we must support capitalism by going out and spending our hard earned dollars to see this movie. Makes about as much sense as Moore using capitalism to make an anti-capitalism movie.
Wait, what? -
Into the pockets of the banks and Wallstreet elites that just torpedoed our retirement. It had nothing to do, and has done nothing for, the average joe, the little people, or you and me. Unless you happen to be the executive chef for one of those big banks who got all our tax dollars to prop up their failing business models, poor management, and lavish lifestyles.
If you think the bailout was about helping you--unless you're a multi-millionaire Wall Street CEO--I'm afraid you are mistaken. -
Name one. Accept the challenge.
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And, clearly, didn't do a damn thing to help anybody except Ben Bernanke's friends.And now? Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
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Instead of saying it was wrong what would you have done? I think it was wrong and the likes of Bear Sterns should have been let fail, but I am not an economist so I don't know what the fallout would have been so perhaps the bail-out was a bitter pill.
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The kind reserved for only the elites, as the kind of healthcare everybody gets in Cuba. Cuz it's such an awesome place.However, that's not the point. This looks pretty good. I bet it will do a lot better than Sicko.
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MM is for the people. I look forward to seeing this movie!
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i like to make money.
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The movie Manufacturing Dissent, created by Michael Moore fans and people sympathetic to his socialist leanings - who through the course of making the documentary became strong critics of his methods - is definitely worth a watch. Especially for Michael More fans.
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as much as it's anti greed. There's a difference between capitalism and avarice.
By the way, there's plenty of blame on both sides of the aisle on this issue to go around. The accountability on this one doesn't lie with the red or blue, it's on the green. -
Well said, the root of all evil.
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That have managed themselves into complete failure that would, supposedly, collapse without your tax money seems like an effort to perpetuate the failing system and bad decisions that led to this mess in the first place.We let Enron collapse. And guess what? We still get electricity. We still get natural gas. Maybe not from Enron . . . and if the bailout was about making good, at 10 cents on the dollar or 50 cents on the dollar, certain toxic assets in order that people depending on moneys invested with a bank might keep going, okay, maybe. But just writing them a blank check to lend, or not to lend, or to pay out their bonuses, or pretend not to but do it anyway, while retaining the same management teams that clearly had some responsibility in the failure of their companies . . . it essentially rewards and perpetuates a complete lack of risk management, if nothing else. The alternative? Doing nothing would be better. That way, everybody learns a lesson, and maybe it'll be another 50 years before we do the same stupid stuff again. This way, we just end up doing the same stupid stuff, rightn now.And, GDP is down, unemployment is up, retail sales are down . . . all after two stimulus packages. Are we still thinking the bailouts were a good idea? Aren't we getting something very close to what we were told we'd suffer, if we didn't send all our tax money and mortgage our children's futures so that poorly managed companies would not be held accountable, or asked to substantially change, their bad behavior and poor management?
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Aug 21, 2009 12:29:47 PM CDT
So what would have happened if there hadn't been a bailout?
by margot_tenenbaum
Wouldn't there have been a further cascade of bank & business failures without real capital in the system instead of the fake derivatives and such? Have I been sold a bill of goods?
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And I don't think Moore is "for the people" so much . . . but, if Moore is going to torpedo people, I can't think of anybody who deserve it more richly than these overblown douche bags.
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Apparently not, or not so much, as most of the banks have hoarded the cash, put it on reserve, and so on. But if that's the concern, why not try and protect or bailout the businesses and banks that would fail, thanks to the idiotically managed big banks, rather than give the people who couldn't manage the billions they were getting in the first place? And that doesn't even touch on all the stimulus and bailout money that has gone in completely different directions than we were told it would. Always a risk when the government opens to doors to the coffers wide.But the proof is in the pudding, and the economy looks pretty bad right now, at least from my perspective.
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Oh please. He didn't portray healthcare in Cuba as anything other than a system where almost anyone can go visit a doctor or obtain inexpensive pharmaceuticals. He acknowledged in the film that their healthcare was ranked below ours--barely. The point for anyone who actually watched the film was to point out the flaws in our system (where not even 9-11 fucking heroes can get proper healthcare or affordable access to drugs), not to extole the virtues of Cuba's.
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Your financial futures are screwed. North America is screwed. Your kids all have no futures. All this is true (unless you're rich white collar). This world is headed for an unrecoverable financial meltdown, my friends. The US is carrying a debt it can NEVER pay back, and if the Chinese et al decide to cash in those trillions in bonds etc. they've been hoarding in US$, it's a collapse that is absolutely unfathomable. Most of you will never retire btw.
Check out the national debt clock to see some numbers that will never - I repeat never flatline...
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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Michael Moore never lies. Indeed, he's possibly the world's most perfect human being. There ya go. Discussion over.
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I truly don't get it. The guy's entertaining, intelligent, creative, and mainstreams issues instead of escaping from them. Do you like to live in your bubble that much? You're running out of air.
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don't blame me if you can't back up your rhetoric.
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You're just spoiling for a fight, aren't ya?
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No one cares about this movie, moving on.
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HE has no regard for human life, not even of his own. For this reason men, I want to impress upon you the need for extreme watchfulness. The enemy may come individually, or in strength. He may even appear in the form of our own troops. But however we must stop him. We must not allow him to gain entrance to this base. Now, I'm going to give you THREE SIMPLE rules: First, trust NO one, whatever his uniform or rank, unless he is known to you personally; Second, anyone or anything that approaches within 200 yards of the perimeter is to be FIRED UPON; Third, if in doubt, shoot first then ask questions later. I would sooner accept a few casualties through accidents rather losing the entire base and its personnel through carelessness. Any variation of these rules must come from me personally. Any variation on these rules must come from me personally. Now, men, in conclusion, I would like to say that, in the two years it has been my privilege to be your commanding officer, I have always expected the best from you, and you have never given me anything less than that. Today, the nation is counting on us. We're not going to let them down. Good luck to you all.
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Hitchens has a great writeup about his so-called "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11. http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
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Yeah. There wasn't a hint of irony in that post was there.
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Bad link posted, try this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
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'cause they're so close. Are you an idiot? Scratch that - you are. Goebbels declared war on ethnic and national minorities - Moore's going after the big guys and helping the minorities. Asshat.
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It's really quite simple actually. Let the fukking companies go bankrupt and hold the people who made this happen accountable and make them pay back the money they made profiting from their illegal deals.
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I've read that Slate article by Hitchens several times and have yet to find one moment in it's rambling incoherency where he proves one lie Moore has told in Fahrenheit 9-11. If you can find one by all means post it here.
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AND HERE'S WHY SOCIALISM FAILS: HUMAN NATURE. Conservatives don't want big government because they don't trust people with power and fear corruption. But, yet they trust the free market wholeheartedly when there are people with money who are greedy and corrupt and abuse the system for the sake of profit. The free market needs to be regulated. The reason the economy is in the mess it is is because of lax regulation that allowed greedy rich people to take abuse the system to become richer.
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It'll be interesting to see what Hitchens (a former socialist) thinks about Moore's new movie.
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Gee, how about the accusation that Bush personally ferried out bin Laden family members while all flights were grounded in the US? Like Hitch said, picking it apart one lie at a time would take more than one column, and would be a waste of time since its been done so many times before.
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And, yeah, free markets gotta be regulated. Would we have this problem now if banks and credit companies had been, by law, required to keep 20% in cash of what they loaned out? Probably not. Clean and simple. Can't let the biggest companies in the world run check kiting schemes that are, for the most part, perfectly legal, yet insanely stupid.
Folks like Madoff are another bucket of fish. What he was doing was already actually illegal. I suppose that's why he didn't get a bailout. -
It goes with the territory. Tossing around Goebbels and Hitler comparisons, however, makes you sound like a leftist, so you better watch out.
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The most amusing inconsistency about Michael Moore is that he said that bin Laden is "innocent until proven guilty" and that the invasion of Afghanistan was nothing but a false flag operation for the construction of a Unocal pipeline, but at the same time said that the war in Iraq was a dangerous distraction from the war Afghanistan. He doesn't operate by the same rules of credibility that the rest of humanity does; clearly he doesn't have any at all.
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the big banks and such being stable in order to do just normal transactions. If you let all of those institutions implode -- and by extension the local grocery store and gas station -- isn't that worse? I think its awful that a lot of the people in the bailed out companies personally profited but I don't know what the alternative would have been.
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The sad fact is that we don't have capitalism and haven't had it in 100 years. We have had, as Ayn Rand put it, a mixed economy of some capitalism and an ever-growing socialism (see Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal for detail). The government has been heavily involved in all areas of commerce; most eggregiously the financial, transportation and health care industries. "Stabby" is right here: the government should not have bailed out AIG. But, then, the only system under which people have the freedom to succeed or fail by their own hand is...capitalism.
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So they stole, sorry, accepted a few hundred Billions after gross incompetence. Who hasn't ? You can't make an omlette without bankrupting America.
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Does anyone really find Moore's little stunts humerous or interesting anymore? It was kind of a lark 20 years ago but now it just seems forced and lame. Other than that this is just more of Mikey raging against the machine even as he profits big from it.
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I agree with you. Every time some libtard talking head says that "the free market is what got us into this mess", I want to punch the TV. Anybody that thinks the banking or mortgage industry or even the economy as a whole are were "pure free market capitalism" is a fool.
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and child labor. I don't know about you but I don't wish to return to that. I have no problem with free market capitalism as long as you have strong unions to balance things out and create a strong middle class. Without that you're looking at slave labor.
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..when MM had questioned him about why he owns guns, "Uncle Moses" had hinted about a certain ethicity/Minoritiy. (hmmmm, who could he be refering to?).Civil Rights advocate?Uh, Yes however that was then.Decades later, the fucker turned out to be a batshit wingnut to the end.
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I assume you're speaking of this excerpt:
"In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights. And Richard Clarke, Bush's former chief of counterterrorism, has come forward to say that he, and he alone, took the responsibility for authorizing those Saudi departures."
Clarke took responsibility for authorizing them. That doesn't mean he wasn't ordered to do it. And show me the the scene in Fahrenheit 9-11 where Moore claims Bush personally had them escorted out. He doesn't. He said the WHITE HOUSE did and that was a conclusion based on the evidence at the time. That evidence you ask? It was CLARKE himself:
“I was making or coordinating a lot of decisions on 9/11 and the days immediately after. And I would love to be able to tell you who did it, WHO BROUGHT THIS PROPOSAL TO ME, but I don't know. Since you pressed me, the two possibilities that are most likely are either the DEPARTMENT OF STATE, or the WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF'S OFFICE. But I don't know.” --Testimony of Richard A. Clarke before the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, March 24, 2004. -
I am not a huge fan of Mikey Moore, so you will not get an impassioned defense of him from me - sorry Node, but I will say that using Christopher Hitchens in almost any capacity other than comic relief is absurd. Hitchens is an intellectual flame-thrower. A 'look at me' contrarian, who uses his intellect and writing to frame any argument or issue to suit his purpose. never mind if it is the truth, but he does usually stick the the facts. However, there is a huge difference between a fact and the truth.
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...have nothing because they are either too lazy to get something, or not skilled/talented enough to get something. History's pages are filled with people who overcame insurmountable odds to achieve fantastic success. The hell we should be carrying dead weight on our backs just because "life is tough" on them. Boo hoo. Give away your fortune to the leeches who want a free ride, Michael Moore -- only then will anyone take your slanted message seriously.
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The people benefitting from a socialist system which benefits the rich got us into this mess because of their greed. The deck is seriously rigged in certain peoples favor. To name just one thing: allowing corporations to declare themselves single entities with all the rights of a human being.
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Michael Moore finally has a President in office that is putting his ideas to work, and its so refreshing to see Obama and those policies fail so fast and so completely. Even people who voted for him are realizing that he has no clue what he's doing. I don't see why this should come as a surprise; Obama has really never done anything in his life that would give him knowledge about any important issue. He's never had a real job, run a business, had to make a payroll, made a quarterly number, sold a product (other than himself), or done anything of merit, other than be a politician (OK, he was President of the Harvard Law Review; who cares?). His wife is just as bad; she had a no show job at a Chicago hospital where they paid her a $300K salary. Even when she was doing actual work it turns out that her specialty was concocting patient dumping schemes. To all of you who voted for him, I forgive you. Just admit what you did and move on, and of course, promise never to do something so stupid again.
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...but there is also truth in the old poker saying "All you need is a chip and a chair".
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Thanks for making my point. Clarke says he doesn't know who ordered it, therefore there's no evidence that Bush, or the "White House" made the request. You've also ignored the fact that the family members were escorted out AFTER the national flight grounding had stopped; Moore is still a liar, even if Bush DID make the request. It's a stupid point to make anyway; Clarke was a harsh critic of the White House, so the accusation that he was part of the conspiracy is idiotic.
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he hates Corporatism which is what we have now. Ayn Rand was a nut. A little socialism is actually good for entrepreneurial capitalism.
There are a lot of people that would like to start there own businesses but, are afraid to because they would lose their health insurance for their children.
We have an education system that instead of preparing children to be good capitalists, trains them to be obedient factory workers and cubicle drones.
When this country was founded most Americans dreamed of one day owning their own farm or business. Corporatism tells you that you should aspire to work for big corporation that the Big Corporation will take care of you. Just like Communists say "Be a good worker and the State will care for you." Corporatism says "Be a good worker and the corporation will take care of you."
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If you knew anything about Moore other than right-wing propaganda spoon fed to you, you'd know that Moore is not to thrilled with Obama right now. He was against the bailout. And what Obama policies have "failed so fast and completely" pray tell? It's been 7 months.
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I agree. The powerful use the government to enrich themselves. The unconstitutional size and scope of the federal government is what allows them to do it. Without Washington rigging the deck, the playing field would be much more even.
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Worshipping? No. I do find him unique and interesting. Funny that you posted that, as I was going to recognize that both are propagandists, though I'd say Moore is more a sensationalist. I'm incensed at your out-of-left-field (ironically) comment comparing him to Goebbel. Well, there's Stalin, Hitler, Moussolini... Hell why not use any other leader that used propaganda and fear to gain power (while exterminating humans)? There is just NO comparison between the two. BTW - I'm an athiest Canadian with no party affiliation. I await your Pinko Commie comments based on that ;-)
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I know plenty about Michael Moore, including this tidbit from a Q&A with him that I read at the Hollywood Reporter: "I'm still in a stupor of stunned ecstasy that Obama won. And I approve of most everything he's done, from apologizing to the Iranians for America overthrowing their democratically elected president in 1953 to appointing Kumar (actor Kal Penn of the "Harold and Kumar" movies) to a White House position. He is doing the best he can with the mess he inherited, and I and millions of others are counting on him never to forget that he came from the working class and that his people need him now more than ever. As for the congressional Democrats, what a bunch of losers -- weak, scared, stupid. They had better get a clue pretty quick or the Dark Forces will return."
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Goebbels and Hitler were both leftists, as was their National Socialist Party. Darth Bandon: you're no conservative. Jon Stewart's show is good for laughs but not intended to be taken at face value ("We're selling snakeoil here", I belive he said on his own show), the Fox News clips were edited for comedic effect, O'Reilly showed the clips in their entirety last night (yes, it could be argued, especially by my wife, that O'Reilly is for laughs as well.). You seem to be throwing this "I'm a conservative" thing around to gain some measure of legitimacy for your arguement. Like the guy that cracks a racial joke, but then adds, "I've got a lot of black friends."
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The problem is that some people are born with all the chips. Look, I agree with you on that, but I do think that we should do our best to at least offer every citizen a decent education so that they can take advantage of the gifts God gave them. If they squander it then I'm with you, that's on them.
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I've seen a lot of people online make the assertion that The Nazis were leftists, but I have yet to read any credible source as to how that works. My understanding is that the Nazis hated the Communists almost as much as they hated Jews.
How do you make that correlation? -
I agree on the education part. As for all the chips; those who have all of them without merit will inevitably lose them. The moment one of the legs is taken away that has been propping them up, they fall. This is why Richard Branson will be around and making billions until the end of time, while trust fund babies reach the top and plummet to the bottom a hundred times over.
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the politics of the issue aside, this website seems to have a decidedly left bent. I search in vain for similar treatment for Ben Stein's doc Expelled, while wading through a mire of Religulous reviews and the latest Moore Snoore-fest.
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Saying "read a book" and "Bush started it!" is no kind of rebutal. What Obama and the current Dem congress is doing was indeed started by Bush and supported by McCain, but that doesn't make it any less socialist. George W. Bush was NOT a fiscal conservative. He and the previous congress spent money like mad and that's why the GOP was voted out. Now it's even worse and Michael Moore is saying Capitalism is to blame.
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Are you trying to be thick? Moore made an allegation based on the evidence at hand which was testimony by the former Head of Counterterrorism saying the order came from either the State Department or the White House. If it did come from those sources it came as a deliberate action from the Bush administration at the request of the Saudi royal family. There is NO LIE.
And I hate to break it to you but even though there is evidence at least one private plane with Saudi nationAls took off before the grounding had ceased, MOORE NEVER EVEN MAKES THAT CLAIM. He said in the film, “At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.” Tell me where he says they were flown out before grounding had ceased. You simply have wrong information.
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Of course moore is happy with Obama's election hopefully stoppign the bleeding. Doesn't mean he agrees wit heverything he does or says. There is evidence to the contrary.
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Cash For Clunkers - a Gov't run program that lasted what? 2-3 weeks? And all I'm hearing about is how dealerships have yet to be paid for taking part in that program. If the Gov't can't even run a $3 billion program for more than a month, how in the holy fuck are they supposed successfully run a multi-trillion dollar health care plan? I would like to hear at least a couple of 'gov't run' success stories before giving them health care. And please, don't bother with the failed Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security abomonations.
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is for HoboCode, NOT GunRunner haha
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Yes he does; he makes the claim that they were flown out during the flight grounding. He also states that they weren't interviewed by the FBI, another falsehood; lie #3 on just one claim.
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And what is your logic on Moore's claim that the Afghanistan war was a shell game for Unocal and that bin Laden was "innocent until proven guilty", but at the same time the Iraq war distracted us from the war in Afghanistan? Which is it?
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Jesus. NO HE DOESN'T. Did you even read my post? He never claims any such thing. He says they were flown out after Sept. 13 which was AFTER the grounding. Good lord.
And he also never states the FBI never interviewed the Saudis. Where do you get this stuff from? He says in the movie quite clearly, that the FBI conducted “a little interview, check[ed] the passport.” Yeah the FBI interviewed them all right. The y interviewed 30 out of 142 of them for about 2 minutes at the airport right before they got on their planes or were on the planes or tarmac. That's real exhaustive.
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So here's the Fahrenheit 9/11 script:
"The FAA has taken the action to close all of the airports in the United States.
Even grounding the president's father, former President Bush...
...on a flight forced to land in Milwaukee.
Thousands of travelers were stranded, among them Ricky Martin...
...due to appear at tonight's
Latin Grammy Awards.
Not even Ricky Martin could fly.
But really, who wanted to fly?
No one, except the bin Ladens.
We had airplanes pick up...
...Osama bin Laden's family
and other Saudis...
...and transport them out
of the U.S.
The White House approved planes...
... to pick up the bin Ladens
and numerous other Saudis.
At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes...
... carried the Saudis
and bin Ladens...
... out of the U.S. After September 13th.
In all, 142 Saudis, including 24
members of the bin Laden family...
... were allowed to leave the country."
So how exactly is this NOT insinuating they were flown out of the country during the grounding of all air traffic? -
it's getting good. Let 'em solve it schoolyard style.
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Simian Jones had a good recommendation regarding Michael Moore and his enemies. The film, for the record is made by a Canadian leftist. Her film documents the inaccuracies made in Moore's films, along with more than a few artistic liberties stretching back to Roger and Me. She also goes about the not so subtle business of making Moore look like a hypocrite who has pretty much cashed in from "fighting for the little guy". This film can be watched for free on You Tube and is important viewing, regardless of what you may think about Michael Moore.
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Clarke also can't get his shit straight. The order either originated with him or it didn't.
Clarke: "I take responsibility for it. I don't think it was a mistake, and I'd do it again." "It didn't get any higher than me. On 9-11, 9-12 and 9-13, many things didn't get any higher than me. I decided it in consultation with the FBI." The fact that Moore even makes this an issue (and getting the facts wrong) shows him as disingenuous. Please tell me why it even matters to the discussion. -
Well the Taliban met with Unocal executives in Texas while W was governor of the state and were put up in five star hotels (shown how they could live) to discuss building a pipeline in their controlled territory. I can only assume that Bush decided to take the land instead, but that's admittedly a leap.
And there still hasn't been an exhaustive investigation of bin Laden's realtionship to 9-11. He simply took credit for it. I'm not aware of any actual proof he did it. Though if you ask me he did, and yes the war in Iraq has distracted us from tracking down a known terrorist, one which we had cornered in the Bora Bora before we decided to invade another country based on lies and smoking gun paranoia. -
Why people don't understand that is beyond me. He fights for real American values and loves this country more than so-called conservatives who would sell their own children for the right price and do. Capitalism is an economic system that we have let permeate every aspect of American society in the name of "freedom." Well, that's not what the founding fathers had in mind. People are way to greedy for us to let capitalism run rampant.
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Because he gives the date they left, that's how. He segued talking about how thousands were stranded by canceled flights, even celebrities, with the fact that the bin Ladens were able to fly a mere two days after the biggest terrorist attack in the history of the country.
I don't even give a shit. They're most likely innocent. i mena the bin laden family is motherfuckign huge. It's likely the majority if all were innocent. But moore didn't lie. He was just showing what a close relationship the Saudis have to this country but showing us that even after Saudi nationals blew up the twin towers and the Pentagon, Saudi nationals were still able to leave the country two days after the attacks with little or no questioning of them. Liberal or conservative, that is outrageous. -
Capitalism is an economic system that we have let permeate every aspect of American society in the name of "freedom." Well, that's not what the founding fathers had in mind. People are way to greedy for us to let capitalism run rampant. I would go even further and say it is the #1 religion in America!
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gavdiggity says:
"I've seen a lot of people online make the assertion that The Nazis were leftists, but I have yet to read any credible source as to how that works. My understanding is that the Nazis hated the Communists almost as much as they hated Jews.
How do you make that correlation?
"
As many have pointed out, Nazi is short for the German words for "National Socialist Party." The central issue regarding government is statism versus individual rights--is the role of government to dictate peoples' lives (at least in part), or is its role restricted to protecting their freedom and the rest is hands off? In this regard, fascists like the Nazis and Mussolini's Italy are in complete lockstep with socialists.
The only difference is that fascism retains an illusion of private ownership, while the government tells everyone what to do with their property. This is the particular form of statism that America seems to be heading toward.
As to Nazis hating Communists, at first they did not. The two groups worked together because of similar goals. Hitler ultimately decided that he'd prefer to conquer the USSR than ally with them, which is when that hatred really started. But it's the hatred of rival gangs, rather than of radically different governments. -
So your strategic assessment of the war in Afghanistan was that it was Bush "taking the land" for his buddies in Unocal. You Truther types can convince yourselves of anything. I'll bet you're an armchair engineer who likes to talk about controlled demolitions and the footprint of 757s. And do you mean to tell me that the governor of a huge energy state met with oil executives, and that these executives stayed in FIVE STAR HOTELS?!! It's a conspiracy! I was under the impression that oil executives usually stayed at the Motel 6.
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If you have a problem with the bin Laden family being flown out of the country, you should talk to Richard Clarke. He takes responsibility for it and said it was his call alone. Secondly, if you don't believe that Moore was being INTENTIONALLY misleading in the script sequence that I posted, then you share Michael Moore's ethics (or lack thereof).
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My point was that the TALIBAN was set up in five star hotels, not just the executives. And yes, that is my strategic assessment of the war in Afghanistan.
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So Bush met with Taliban Unocal executives while he was governor, and used the 9/11 attacks (or planned them) so could then attack that country, overthrow the government that he had been negotiating with, but didn't end up building the pipeline at all? And then you're against the war in Iraq because it took resources away from this war in Afghanistan? Brilliant logic. You and Moore make perfect sense.
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as told by Michael Moore: the communist.
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thanks for your response.
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Come on dude. Clarke merely means it was his call to GO THROUGH with the flights, not that he ordered them personally. He received the order from elsewhere. He ADMITTED THAT. You're the one misleading and twisting the truth.
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make you an American hero?
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Don't mistake me for a 9-11 truther fanatic. I have not once insinuated that the Bush administration planned or let the attacks happen. But the Taliban giving housing to Bin Laden, who again is perceived as responsible for the attacks but hasn't been proven guilty but merley taken credit for the attacks, was obviously a convenient excuse to go ahead with pre-existing plans to invade Afghanistan.
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I asked you to explain how the script clip I posted was not misleading. Anyone with two eyes and a brain can tell that Moore was trying to make the audience think that the bin Laden family was shepherded out on the personal authorization of Bush during the grounding of all national flights. These are unfounded lies.
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In a word: No. First up, Hitler's Germany, and Stalin's Soviet Union, were the epitome of Totalitarian states. The were dictatorships. Stalin's Soviet was a series of never ending 'revolutions' and five year plans that kept the populace moving towards a goal that was always just beyond reach - because Stalin kept pushing it beyond their reach. Hitler by contrast, pushed German racial superiority and lebansraun - or living space. Meaning: Expansion. Hitler hijacked the german workers party in the 1920's in order to have a party platform to work with -he hated Communists with a visceral passion because he believed they were in part the reason for the loss of WWI and thus German prestige. His party platform was virulent anti-Jew and anti-marxist from the very beginning. When he came to power as a legally elected chancellor, he framed the communists by burning down the parliament building, then called for new elections. Communists were arrested, and all parties were dissolved - except for Nazism. Hitler hated the Communists. As for the term Socialist in NAZI, terms evolve over time, what they mean now is not what was meant 80 years ago, even still Hitler and his germany was never a socialist state.
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I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already. It's you that are making that leap based on your ideology and perception of Moore. Moore is not making that leap, he's presenting facts and evidence.
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thank you for YOUR response, too.
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Good, I'm glad you're not a Truther. However, this Unocal conspiracy stuff is what started the whole Truther movement long before anyone started talking about controlled demolitions and seismic records. It's amazing to me that someone would still believe this gibberish nearly 8 years after its been debunked: http://www.slate.com/id/2059487/pagenum/all/
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Unocal pipeline debunking :
http://tinyurl.com/kncac6 -
Hitler hated Marxists because he believed they and Jews had sabotaged Germany during WWI. Also, while he developed his German racial superiority theory, he believed that Slavic peoples (Russians, etc.) were an inferior race. Communism is an extreme form of leftism - but in fact Soviet Union was run by Stalinism -which was a marxist/totalitarian hybrid. Germany, was pure Totalitarian. 100% dictatorship.
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Truth and facts indeed.
59 Deceits of Fahrenheit 9/11: http://tinyurl.com/6nd5h The funniest thing about Fahrenheit 9/11 is that people so easily saw it for what it was, and probably helped Bush win again in 2004. -
Was also a pure dictatorship, but he had to go through more motions than Hitler did because of the party apparatus - and thus good ol 'Joe Stalin' could be seen as an allie. But make no mistake, it was a dictatorship. A very brutal one. Stalin eliminated most of his rivals, and those who were not, were smart enough to keep quiet.
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I was pretty pissed to find out that other so many countries had better results for less money than here in the US. I always knew we had great doctors and medical scientists, but fuck I had no idea how screwed we were all getting from the private insurance industry. I work for a small software company and I have to pay more for my insurance than my rent and I still have to fight with the insurance to pay claims. That's fucking bullshit. I am ready to switch to a public health insurance just like my retired parents are on. They love having medicare. I know that half this country wets themselves at the thought of public insurance(even though half of them are on medicare) but the other half wants it. I don't think anyone should be forced to be on public health insurance. I also don't thnk that anyone should be able to prevent those who want public health insurance from getting it. Everyone should have a choice. And arguing that the poor private health insurance companies will go broke is bullshit. Other countries with public health insurance also have private health insurance that is doing just fine. These fucking companies will cry like pussies if anyone offers them any fucking competition. Fuck them. I shouldn't be prevented from a consumer choice because some fuckwad ceo won't be a pulling in millions per year. Government shouldn't force public health insurance but I and half the country think it should offer it to those who want it.
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There are many points that can be made in favor of public health insurance. However, we still have a Constitution. Which section and/or clause of the Constitution gives the federal government the authority to manage health care and insurance?
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Hope it made some sense. Far too often people confuse the terms of what fascism, nazism, communism and socialism mean. The truth is sometimes hard to come by as peoples shifting political views tend to obscure that truth, or in fact co-opt it for their own reasons. It has become fashionable to push nazism into the left wing and socialism - it is wrong. But all extremist have more in commons than one might think. Extreme right wing and left wing do cross paths. What set me off with rvtger is his assertion that the United States is on that socalist path. Just plain garbage. Like that woman screaming at Barney Frank with the nazi picture. Just stupid.
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still trying to defend the miserable egotistical imcompetent policies and ideologies of the deep right and George W. Bush that, thanks to them, have sunk the whole world into the darkest global economic crisis since 1929. I specially love to see the W's groupies shouting vituperations at the left-wingers. It's comical beyond belief.
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which is why I wasn't sure about the whole Nazis = Socialist thing. I mean, I remembered the National Socialist name being shortened (essentially) to Nazi, and recalled that there were some aspects from both sides of the political spectrum involved in this form of "socialism". Thanks for the refresher, citizens.
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Of hearing that song that samples "Straight To Hell" by the Clash, every trailer/commercial that uses it tricks me into thinking they made a classy song-choice, and then sure enough whatshervoicebox starts in with all the shotguns and nonsense.
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isn't Wikipedia GREAT?
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How about trying to get your point across in a single post?
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...but Moore.Capitalism, the scourge that has been a pox upon us all, has been very very good to Michael Moore.
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A . . . I dont think anyone would actually respond (youre the first in almost two years)
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B . . . I sont know how to paragraph break yet.
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The only way to change a law is to work within it.
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Aug 21, 2009 5:41:36 PM CDT
Moore - the embodiment of the three worst American traits.
by biggusdickus
Obese, opinionated and wears a baseball cap.The bloke's a knob.
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I always think of this site to be a fan boy, action, superhero, fantasy, scifi news blog. Why do Left politics always sneak in? To me posting this trailer is like posting a trailer for Confessions of a Shopoholic. I'm really only hear for the fun stuff.
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'cause when you post like that, you sound like a lunatic.
For a paragraph break, type without a space between the and the P.
And I'm glad to hear your kid is okay. -
>, that is
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I know I spelt hear wrong, sorry. I'm really only here for the fun stuff.
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free market vs. public intrest I havent heard anything but opinion . . . mostly bad. I have actual 'rubber meeting the road' experience with this. How would my son have faired under a pure Randian style healthcare system?
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Or, say, posting a trailer for something retarded like Post Grad?
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Lets see how this works. Did it work?
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that makes people in this country stop giving a fuck about politics. That's a seriously ignorant fucking thing to say, Fareal. AS ignorant as the right wingers who say Obama wants to kill their grandma. Idiocy like that just hurts the debate.
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Well said.
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This guy is full of shit - he should have left it at Columbine - that was reportive.. since then his ego has taken over
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But I do kind of agree.
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Hyperbole used for political effect.
Good luck sorting all this out, folks. I'm off to go see Moon with my girlfriend. -
Now that was fucking funny.
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there are people who believe that what I/We the people did was essentially theft. That government (again, our social contract) should have no right to levy taxes. That taxes are a form of stealing, a means of redistributing "money from people who worked to earn it to people who didnt" (from BullShit a few weeks ago).I dont know what that means exactly. Did I/you steal from you/me when we drove to work today? Like I said above I service pools . . . so I guess I steal quite bit more from you then me . . . in a sense you could say you have been unfairly taxed . . . without representation.Or would we more benefit if the roads we each took to work were not built and maintained from stolen gains but by private individuals/business interests? And not just those roads, but ALL roads?Is that what that means?It's kinda hard to maintain a coherent train of thought when the comment window is so small.
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I don't agree with everything Moore has to say, and I think he skews information as much as any news source (but at least he doesn't claim to be unbiased like they do), BUT I think this is a case of "he's just saying what we're all thinking". Where the hell is our money in the wake of all this? And I agree with the guy in the clip about the possibility of a clash between haves and have-nots. Of course that won't happen until they take away what most people seem to view as the REALLY important freedoms and rights: cable, the internet, reality tv and video games. Only then will people get up off the couch and realize they are totally justified in being righteously pissed off at the morally bankrupt group of so-called leaders that the average American citizen assumed would do right by them.
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correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the tax on gasoline is apportioned for maintenance of roadways. My info could be off so let's both double-check that before getting into an argument, though.
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is that when people actually do confront their elected representatives, they get painted in the media as being reactionary survivalist anti-government wackos living in shacks and jerking off to Bill O'Reily. Who wants to be impugned on news networks, by the president, and by congressmen?It's not all apathy.
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I made a blanket statement, and you caught it, thank you for pointing that out. And actually the net has been a useful tool in helping organize pprotests, just seems like so many of the folks I come in contact with are only concerned with those things.
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...people across the spectrum of politics are wondering "where the hell the money went." I know I am and I'm a pretty conservative fellow.
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Fact.
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Seems a bit lackluster. You could tell from their trailers that Roger & Me, Bowling, and F9/11 had some serious juice. Even Sicko had its moments. This just seems to lay there like a virgin on her wedding night. Moore needs controversial subject matter to remain vital.
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QUOTING: "I've seen a lot of people online make the assertion that The Nazis were leftists, but I have yet to read any credible source as to how that works. My understanding is that the Nazis hated the Communists almost as much as they hated Jews.
How do you make that correlation?"
Nazis were Socialists, hence the National Socialist Party where Nazi derives its name from (National Socialist German Workers' Party). And yes, they did hate communism, because a socialist and a communist are two different things. Pretty much the only thing Hitler disagreed with in socialism was racial equality. Communism and Socialism are both leftist ideas. -
In a word: No.
You can read what I posted up above, or just read this: Communism promoted equality of all peoples and races. Nazism promoted the superiority of one race - Germans. And in fact only a small sub-set of that - Aryans. It is only revisionist thinking and political posturing that tries to place Nazism in the leftist camp. Most credible scholars, when forced to choose say it is more of a right wing ideology. However, the true thinking is that it can not be categorized as in either camp. But what pushes it closer it to right wing as opposed to left wing ideology is simple: Leftwing Communism embraces all races and promotes equality (even though communism is total bullshit and would never work.) Rightwing governments promote ethnic and nationalistic homogeneity - uh, like Nazism. Get it? Or how about just a right wing group like Aryan nation? -
herbsherman is correct. Roads are essentially paid for by gasoline taxes. Schools, fire dept, etc are paid for by other taxes, such as property taxes. Your INCOME tax pays for the INTEREST on the national debt, which has EXPLODED in the last 8 yrs. Notice I said interest. It does not, nor ever can, feasibly pay the principal on the debt. This is why many people have a problem paying income taxes. INCOME tax is also used for NATIONAL DEFENSE.
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You'd have to be a complete and total idiot to believe everything in a Moore film but you'd be an even bigger idiot to believe nothing from this films. Every time Moore releases a film it is one of the best films, not just documentary/docutainment but film, of the year. You can't help but be happy and sad and angry and confused and in the end a little smarter for having watched one of his films. While I certainly am not dumb enough to believe everything in his films I wouldn't miss one because there are few filmmakers out there like Moore that can both entertain and educate at the same time.
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You are concentrating on the racial equality part, which is exactly as I said in my post. It is the main area where Socialism and the Nazis differed. Socialists believe in a large government that controls almost every aspect of a person's life (which itself is also similar to communism, hence a lot of the confusion.) In essence, the common man cannot take care of himself so it is the government's job to do so. The Nazis simply took this to the extreme and excluded everyone EXCEPT who they believed to be the master race. Yes there are similarities to right wing as well. Unfortunately the Nazis didn't strictly fit into either left or right category because, as fascists, they embodied traits of both.
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I was simply trying to explain why many people call the Nazis leftists to Turingstee. Common Nazi/Leftist ideas: gun control, limiting or taking away religious freedoms. Nazi/Right wing ideas- support one race over another (or group of peoples), death penalties, and strong criminal sentences
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can't believe he passed this up
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Yes, I know. That is why I commented. Your post said nazism was a leftist ideology, my response was to point out that most respectable scholars say it is not, and when forced to choose, put it into the right wing because of it's ethnic component, and the fact that Hitler was a vehement anti-marxist. However, Nazism and Stalinism were in fact dictatorships - totalitarian.
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I definitely get your point. I should have clarified. In either case, far left and far right are extremists ideas, and serve only to benefit a minority of people, not the majority, which is essentially in the center of the political spectrum.
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He provides discussion on serious issues while making entertaining films. And he has a 'fuck the big fat cat' mentality, which I totally understand. What more can you ask for?
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And in fact, if the further out they are the closer they actually become. They start sharing beliefs and practices. Extremism in any form is dangerous.
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I think a lot of people's irony detectors are broken.
I am pretty sure Moore doesn't want to get rid of Capitalism, but get rid of Corporatism. -
False Dilemma or False Equivalency is the new "Centrism" and it stinks to high heaven. Take a fucking stand.
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Only if you believe in a left-center-right axis. Check this out for something more befitting, y'know, reality.
http://tinyurl.com/clwl88
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Your point being what? I looked at the graph.
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You say I need to get with reality, then you post a meaningless graph with no context. Someone just put dots on a graph and put the names of what I assume where the presidential contenders, and this is your point? Do not parachute into a TB - posting some lame ass shit and insults (as you did to punisher - who was being very civil), and not have anything more to contribute that sophistry of the weakest sort. At least read the entire TB before you spout off and you will realize that the central argument I made is that extremism is circular -that is the furthest points always meet somewhere.
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Since when? I'm a conservative, and I'm not of the opinion that whites are naturally superior to other races. Conservatism deals solely with economic and political ideology, not racial equality. Conservatism in fact favors equality because it says, "Hey, let's get the government out of everybody's lives and let everybody have a bite of the apple!" That's free market capitalism and limited government, a decentralized form of governance. The Statist is the one that relies on government to provide health care and jobs and unemployment and food and cars and everything else. Big government is the province of left wing mentality.
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...violently.
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Aug 22, 2009 1:13:36 AM CDT
ACLU, Gitmo lawyers exposed CIA agent identities to terrorists
by doctorwho?
Wasn't this called treason by the lefty motards a while back?
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There is a difference between being conservative and far right extreme. Being conservative does not mean you are racist. Many at the far right ARE racist, and that was the point being made. They are not conservative. They are extremists.
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I have taken a stand. I am a centrist conservative. I believe in freedom of speech, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe every individual DOES NOT deserve equality if they are not willing to work for it (ie: I don't believe in hadouts for the sake of handouts.) I believe in Free markets with some (minimal) government oversight and regulations. I believe no matter what an individual does they should give their best.
Just because I am not at the extreme left ot right does not mean I don't or haven't taken a stand. -
the right wing I was referring to was the far right extremists, not simply those to the right of center. Both sides (left and right wing) have their dirty fringes. That was the point being made. Unfortunately, racists organizations (neo-nazis, etc) tend to be far right, not far left.
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Don't be fooled by the ACLU. They have an ulterior motive. The first director stated that he wanted the organization to move the country toward socialism, with the ultimate goal being communism. It is an organization that uses the guise of "Liberties" to take them away. His ideals are clearly laid out in his book "Liberty Under the Soviets" from 1928.
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It always pisses me off when you see those sad fucks protesting at meetings of the G8. They really don't have a fucking clue. There is no other economic system, none, that generates the revenue stream, raises the average standard of living and gives a greater Tax income for governments to spend on social programs like heath-care, housing, emergency services and Policing, all the things a nations population has a basic right to if they pay their taxes, than Capitalism does. You ask these dingbats what they would replace it with and they're stumped. HOWEVER..... Capitalism also means that the few gain a huge amount of power and as all geeks know, with great power comes great responsibility. And from what I've seen and read about the movie that's the angle I think Moore is going for, the lack of responsibility. There are people who have royally fucked up. Have done things that us mere mortals would get fired for. And their STILL in charge and with over a TRILLION of all OUR money from both sides of the Atlantic to bail the fucker's out!! That's over 1,000,000,000,000. That's the reason people are going to see this movie, so they can see the people who did this, so should they meet them in the street they'll know who to punch in the face.
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You are absolutely correct. That is why there HAS to be some level of government regulation involved for Capitalism to work (the true Capitalists HATE this idea and use the term socialism to get people upset about it). Unfortunately, the same government that was supposed to regulate the market to make sure it did not take advantage of the common citizen is the government that was in the pocket of these banks and corporations. Instead of regulating in favor of the citizen, they regulated in favor of the corporations and banks.
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There is much that Socialism and Conservatism share in term's of values and goals, and speaking as a citizen of the country that pretty well invented and defined both of them over the last few hundred years, the only real difference between them now is how they go about achieving those goals and values. This huge media induced divide between the two of them is simply to get people worked up in a frenzy because an angry, unfocused electorate is easier to control and bend to your will than a calm and focused one. A trick the Nazi's used very well. The last thing some of these pricks who have screwed up want is a progressive forward thinking electorate, working together with common purpose. How they going make money from that? So they get their billionaire media mogul friends (I'm looking at you Murdoch, you twat!!) to whip up the populace and preventing them from thinking.
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...or the International Monetary Fund or the Summit of the Americas Seattle, London Quebec etc
These anti-globalization activists from the left fly in and trash the place. They throw bricks through McDonald’s. They smash up Starbucks.
But these "hard core" leftists enjoy the very fruits of such globalization. They can bitch all they want about this pernicious system but in reakity they would choose it everyday of the week. -
How about Jonathan Klein telling CNN producers that they can’t have talk radio show hosts anymore. “Complex issues require world class reporting.” He added that talk radio hosts too often 'add the noise'.
Regardless of your thoughts on talk radio this is just stupid. They're just discriminating against an entire demographic and shooting themselves in the foot. Take the good talk show hosts and get them on, and leave out the crap. -
the movie, or the left/right freak out.
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The corporate thieves can't be looking forward to this film, so I am.
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...every time someone questions it they get called a Communist and told to shut up. I guess for the rich know how to divide and conquer. They sit back while we argue amongst ourselves about the motives of the man telling the truth so much, we forget about the truth.
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Thanks for recommending that movie, it gave me a lot of food for thought. It took a long time for them to get to a decent point, but the last half raises quite a few problems I had not been aware of.
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Aug 22, 2009 7:03:17 AM CDT
While the trailer seems pretty politically neutral, it obvisouly
by natecore
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure he didn't talk to the likes of Lew Rockwell, Thomas Woods, Ron Paul, Peter Schiff or Judge Andrew Napolitano.
Capitalism and a free market don't exist when any sort of gov't subsidy, stimulus or bail-out props up a failed company and prevents the proper bankruptcy/liquidation process to rid the market of the failed business and allow the prosperous ones to grow. These stimulus/bail-outs destroy the market and we've got both parties selling Americans for a buck and a retained congressional seat.
I like watching Moore's films, but I already know he won't stick it to both parties, so while he deservedly takes the GOP to the ringer this'll only allow the DNC to position themselves squarely behind us and jam their false utopia up our asses. -
Aug 22, 2009 8:22:42 AM CDT
DOCWHO - HOW DO YOU COMPARE SMASHING A MCDONALD'S STOREFRONT
by bringingsexyback
to the systematic ravaging, and sometime murder, of peoples and environments by corporations?
Do you think corporations are acting gracefully when they hire mercenaries and poison land and water systems?
Jesus. -
Like him or not he's no Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Hannity, Ann Coulter, or Bill O Riley. Now those are people who really distort the facts.
Quick little fact about Manufacturing Dissent
The people behind it were invited on FoxNews more than once but during their interview they wouldn't just talk about Michael Moore (originally their documentary was supposed to be a bio on Moore and they were huge fans) also directed their criticism towards George Bush. FoxNews didn't like that and quickly cut their interview because they didn't bow down to George Bush.
Funny how things change. In the 8 years under Bush, Republicans were telling us you HAVE to support Bush or you are anti-American. Now that Obama's in there it's somehow ok for them to compare him to Hitler, bash him for even the smallest things (Michelle Obama was attacked on FoxNews for wearing SHORTS as she walked off AirForceOne). So how come if you don't support Bush you hate this country but if you don't support Obama it is different? Funny how things work with the right. -
I find it ironic that Michael Moore has made enough money by putting down his own country that he now has more than enough money to move the fuck out of it, yet he stays here and puts it down some more. And to the guy who said there wasn't one lie to be found in any Michael Moore film, I have some investments you might be interested in.
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and you eliminate 90% of the governments problem. As someone above mentioned, the idea that a corporation should be labeled as a single entity, with all the rights of a human, is about as good an idea as the Community Reinvestment Act.
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She's just like Eva Braun!!!!!
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There goes the remaining 10 percent of our problems.
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Aug 22, 2009 10:09:43 AM CDT
Actually Fox is the only one thats not distorting the facts.
by paburrows
Thats all that the other news media does and its been proven.
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Thankfully your form of retardation is voluntarily and curable. Good luck with that.
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But Communism lost first, so I guess that means Capitalism wins the FAILOLYMPICS?
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fox is the lone news source on the face of the earth that doesn't distort facts. It's only been proven to your chimp brain paburrows
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Approximately eighty years ago, more or less. Since the first few decades of the twentieth century we have existed in a mixed economy that uses capitalism and socialism. Pure capitalism cannot exist. If it wasn't for government intervention animating the corpse of capitalism then it would have to be abandoned completely.
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The scenes show Nancy Pelosi as often as they show Bush. I don't expect unbiased opinions from Moore, but this doesn't seem to be an anti-Republican movie. It's anti-bailout. Unfortunately, the title suggests he's blaming capitalism, which arguably, all this bailing out has nothing to do with.
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People protesting Bush were justified cuz he was fucking everything up? Now, people protesting Obama's policies are party stooges and racists?FYI: Both parties suck equally.
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There are MORE people interested in a Michael Moore movie than they are Twilight.
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Bc, STFU, you suggest that no one here likes Michael Moore, when in reality, there are a large number of film geeks that are entertained by his films. Also, I have one other point to offer you: Oscar winner.
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The has never been a more biased, bigoted, agenda-driven fatass fuck of a film-maker in history. Read up on this guy's personal holdings and what he did in his own community if you want to know what he's really all about.
Fuck him for pretending to care about the little guy. -
Fox news is the least fair and balanced out there. It's awful. Reprehensible. Not only that, it's fucking annoying. All they do two-boxes of people arguing with each other. It's editorial, not news.
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Just sayin'. I like that show, too. Just a 'little' ironic considering what you're arguing.
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We've agreed on points before in the past, as recently as the past month I believe. No need to viciously attack me for that. And with unfounded "evidence". "Ass-kissing"? You don't know me at all. I call out the editors for their bullshit and factual errors every chance I get because I'm disappointed in this site's loss of quality over the past 13 years. So, why don't I take a page out of your book, and tell you to SHUT THE FUCK UP since you obviously have no fucking clue about what you're talking about. I must conclude you're either a moron, or you really have me confused with someone else.
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You compare the posting of this trailer to the posting of a trailer for a rom-com or Hannah Montana movie, something this site has NEVER done. I compared the interest levels to a Michael Moore film as being superior, here on AICN at least, to those of the Twilight series, something AICN DOES cover, much to the consternation and complaints of the talkbackers. You claim AICN only posts this for talkback hits because no one could possibly be interested in this film OTHER than to argue. An insipid point to be sure. I pointed out that there are TONS of film geeks that are entertained by Moore's films. Film geeks aren't generally interested in Twilight or rom-coms or other "tween" type shit. But Moore's films are entertaining. And he is an Oscar-winner, so that does put him a step above other such examples that you and I have pointed out, and thus it makes his inclusion on a film site run by film geeks much more believable. And in conclusion- I think you need to drink a beer and chill the fuck out before that vein in your forehead explodes.
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holy shit...and I'm surprised asimov was able to write a post without referencing J.J. Abrams or Star Trek...our little boy is growing up!
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It is pretty brilliant at pointing out how hypocritical Fox News can be.
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That's how I knew he was aping it. Just saying that it's kind of ironic using the EDITED "Daily Show" montage to point out how another network is manipulating the facts. Daily Show has a very easy job doing what they do. Their game is pointing out contradiction. They don't really report any news, per se. Not that I'm saying I don't like it.
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Every American here should be getting the news from TWO sources, whether you prefer Fox, CNN, MSN, whatever.
In my humble opinion at least one of those sources should be BBC America. -
I don't know why I'm continuing to discuss something with someone who jumps to conclusions as easily as you do and tosses around unwarranted insults (which makes you a grade A jackass in my book), but here goes. Again, I shouldn't have to point it out to you, it SHOULD be obvious, but MANY MANY MAN Film geeks are interested in Michael Moore's films. Therefore, he gets attention at movie geek websites. It doesn't matter if its sci fi or fantasy or what have you- AICN has also covered many dramas and comedies and documentaries by other filmmakers that the film community is interested in. By your logic, we should NEVER see coverage of the next documentary by Herzog, should we? Or we should conclude that AICN only posts a story about Sam Mendes' next drama because they want the attention and debate the talkbacks will bring up? Give me a fucking break man. Covering Michael Moore is in NO way comparable to covering Hannah Montana. And your "evidence" was a good start, but ultimately fallible.
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But at least it's for the correct side.
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So what you're saying is the WTO and other international trade groups have as their aim and goal to murder people and destroy the environment?
And being the absolute MASTER of the non sequitur that you are then ask me if I "... think corporations are acting gracefully when they hire mercenaries and poison land and water systems?"...because I rip on your loser lefty commrades?
Quite the leap.
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I was civil. You were not. You acted like a jackass. I responded in kind.
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You're in a bad mood this morning. Sometimes I misread a lot of comments on here too when I'm in such a mood. No problem; water under the bridge.
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That most of the crap that was going on in the Bush years which had you in such a hysterical tizzy are still going on in your beloved Obama admin right? Hmmm.... strangely silent. C'mon, let's see some of those daily posts in ALL CAPS demanding Hope and Change(TM)
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I ate too much at dinner and didn't have room for more than 4 beers. No effect at all.
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Aug 22, 2009 2:52:54 PM CDT
neocons scream: MICHAEL MOORE RAPED MY JESUS LOVING ASS!!!
by asimovlives
OHHH, GOOD FOR YOU!!!
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Does anyone really think that any president in modern history has not been, to a large degree, beholden to the very large special interests? Obama marketed his campaign to us as VERY liberal.Marketed to us. There was a 'market' for a president that wasnt going to represent those that have increasingly accrued exorbitant power and wealth over us in the course of modern history, whos machinations have led us into this backasswards world of huge privatized gains but equally huge socialized losses, but represent US. Thats what we wanted, thats why he was elected.I think we got NEW COKE instead. Something that makes us pine for the original back. A product with the purpose of failing. Thats what I think Obama is.
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Modern leftists (I don't use liberal because they are not liberals in the classic sense) believe that society GAINS with constant government action and involvement. A mistaken view of what the Founders meant by equality leads them to believe in a culture of conformity and dependency. The individual takes on dronelike qualities and is deterred from independent thought. HOPEAND CHANGEHOPEANDCHANGE (nodding hypnotically)
The irony is found in the way the left slavishly follows emotion and is never circumspect of their own shortcomings. Contrast that with conservatives who frequently eat their own and see the GOP for the joke that it is... as evidenced by many voting for Obama or not at all. -
Aug 22, 2009 4:24:42 PM CDT
I COULD NEVER BE CIVIL WITH SOMEONE WHO CALLS ME A JIZZ MOP
by bringingsexyback
I just couldn't.
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He can't get to everything!!! He hasn't even taken a vacation yet. By this time in Bush's 1st term he was on his 6th trip to Crawford!!!!
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Aug 22, 2009 4:29:55 PM CDT
I HOPE OBAMA NOW REALIZES THAT BIPARTISANSHIP WITH THE GOP
by bringingsexyback
is not in the realm of possibility. Better the Dems just work amongst themselves and some shit done.
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The fact that some can make capitalism work for them and some cannot does not make it unfair. Natural selection is fair, but does that mean the dinosaurs deserved to die out and that smaller animals deserve to be eaten? Unfair is everyone having essentially the same amount of money and power, albeit usually very little when spread so thin, no matter how much education they have, how hard they work or what they contribute to society - all in the name of the sort of "economic equality" that has never truly worked for a country the size of the United States and certainly not without a massively corrupt central government that has to be dictatorial just to keep another party from coming in and messing everything up. That's an oversimplification of the situation, but not compared to some theory that says, "Capitalism is wrong because the rich get richer while the poor stay poor." When you get down to it, the justification for doing away with capitalism is as rooted in greed and an obsession with money as any justification for capitalism ever was or will be. In short, it's people that want more than they deserve or are willing to work for - period - believing they're entitled to at least have the same amount as their neighbor because... what? They exist? Actually, I'm glad there's another Moore movie coming out that is likely to be prominent. I don't even remember Sicko being released, but I remember Fahrenheit 9/11 getting a lot of press in 2004 before Bush won that election and did so with numbers that couldn't be questioned. Moore is good for the Republican party because however embarrassing Bush or Palin was / are, Moore is an even more embarrassing, low class, untrustworthy and intolerably tongue-in-cheek representative of anyone even remotely left of center, not to mention the so-called working class of America that he tries so hard to look like. God knows the Republicans need something to make them look halfway decent right now. I don't know why respectable Democrats (and I believe there are many) don't just tell Moore to shut-up already.
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Wingnuts make for great entertainment don't they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVS4Zgjm8HE -
Aug 22, 2009 4:36:19 PM CDT
AT LEAST "LEFTISTS" DIDN'T BRING ASSAULT RIFLES TO BUSH EVENTS
by bringingsexyback
Those who disrupt G8 summits are at least motivated by real injustices done to indigenous peoples across the world.
What motivation does a wingnut have in bringing heat to Obama's town hall? -
That's not capitalism that's highway robbery!!!!! Shame of you!!!!!!
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You really have no fucking idea what you're talking about do you? Tell me, which one are you channeling today? Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity? You don't sound quite bat-shit crazy for it to be Glenn Beck, not quite dumb enough for it to be Sarah Palin, and not quite self conratulatory for it to be Rush Limbaugh. My money's on O'Reilly.
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until the fat man sings.
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most of these people who have supposedly been seen in the neighborhood of presidential events carrying guns are doing so perfectly lawfully. You might say that it’s not the greatest idea in the world to take a gun along to a presidential town hall, but in fact under the laws of these states, there’s nothing illegal about it.
"motivated by real injustices done to indigenous peoples"...maybe some. Your quaint and noble characterization belies your own lefty kookiness. MOST are anti capitalist, Communist groups well organized and super funded. Mass amounts are people looking for kicks.
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any pictures of him clearing brush lately?
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The idea that somehow these raucous town halls are preventing us having the “serious public policy debate” as they just said. We would not have had any public policy debate if Obama had got his way. His intention was to get this thing passed by August, a 1,200 page bill passed unseen, unread and rammed through by August, and after it had been passed into law, then he would have been happy to sit and chit-chat, and have a public policy debate.
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Aug 22, 2009 4:55:30 PM CDT
DOCWHO - PLEASE CITE ME A SOURCE FOR YOUR PROTESTOR BREAKDOWN
by bringingsexyback
Yes, it is legal in some states to carry a firearm, but your defense of these people who show up at a Presidential event with assault rifles clearly demonstrates your kookiness. Not the greatest idea in the world? No shit. Shame of you!!!!
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G8 protesters throwing bricks and trash cans thru shop windows is supported by BSB..."Speaking truth to power" " Youthful idealism" YAAA!
And now the idea that suddenly someone asking a question of Senator Specter in a loud voice is the return of the mob is completely insane. -
Look at those assholes who try and stand between the bitch and the Israeli, posing with their arms crossed like the Jew is the bad guy here. They say "We're with you" to her. Shame on them too. Assholes.
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to an Israeli at a town hall. Face it, Doc. You're defending the wrong people.
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Aug 22, 2009 4:59:12 PM CDT
Do people that bash capitalism even know how market economics wo
by natecore
I even question if the people that support market economics know how it works b/c if they did there would be more people outraged by what both parties do to distort the free market. Nothing like ruining the exchange of goods and services and then asking (and getting) more power to "regulate" the market.
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Aug 22, 2009 4:59:57 PM CDT
VADER - NOT TO MENTION THAT MOCK CRYING GESTURE SHE MADE
by bringingsexyback
That's some serious karma she's got coming because you KNOW she's going to end up losing her trailer next time she gets a hospital bill.
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You know that. What I said was it pales in comparison to the destruction done by corporations worldwide. Seriously, you're better than that. Have you been drinking?
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Aug 22, 2009 5:05:49 PM CDT
THESE SAME IDIOTS THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO SPEND
by bringingsexyback
$1 trillion on war but not a cent on healthcare reform for our own country.
Geniuses. God I feel like smacking a bitch right now. -
You really have no fucking idea what you're talking about do you? What a load of malarky. Tell me, which one are you channelling today? Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity? You don't sound quite bat-shit crazy enough for it to be Glenn Beck, not quite dumb enough for it to be Sarah Palin, not quite psychotically vicious enough for it to be Dick Cheny, not quite smarmy enough for it to be Carl Rove, and not quite self congratulatory enough for it to be Rush Limbaugh. My money's on O'Reilly. Are all neocons as gullible and naive as you are? No wonder you clowns are going have your asses handed to you for the forseeable future. You fucks had your chance and look where it landed us. Fuck bipartisanship. You knuckle dragging fucksticks haven't a clue what the word even means. So you can just bend over bitches, we're gonna wreck your rectums. Now shut the fuck up, and sit the fuck down.
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What's funny about the lefty hysteria about heated town meetings is the complete amnesia about their own reckless public discourse.
Films were praised imagining the assassination of the president. Michael Moore, courted by the Democratic elite, lamented that bin Laden on 9/11 had hit a blue state — and once compared the killers of Americans in Iraq to Minutemen.
Al Gore customarily used excessive language like "brown shirts." Senators Durbin, Kennedy, and others compared soldiers to Saddamites, Pol Pot’s killers, and Nazis. Ward Churchill compared the victims in the Twin Tower to “little Eichmanns.” Sen. Robert Byrd likened Pres. George W. Bush’s policies to what transpired in Nazi Germany.
Need I continue? Because there is a LOT more. In your leftist thinking BSB...all acceptable means to the noble end of discrediting anything close to centrist thinking. -
In comparison to all I listed above, the outrage of a few private citizens — none of them in the government or prominent in the arts, or political commentators — seems rather mild. In truth, the 2000s marked the liberal reversion to the hateful speech of the 1950s extreme Right.
At least in the 1950s, there were liberal humanists who rose up to deplore the cheap slurs of Joe McCarthy & Co. By 2001, there were none to object to the above sort of speech.
You are a leftist. Not a liberal. -
Claimed that the reason 911 happened was because of all the gays in America. Yadda yadda yadda, both sides are filled with nutsos. The problem is, at the moment, the right refuses to admit that any of their protestors have behaved badly.
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There are anti semetic leftys on this site who claim it was Mossad and all of the Jews stayed home from work that day. There's also people who think it has connections to an alien conspiracy too. Your point is...?
Behaving badly? This is a townhall meeting. THEY WORK FOR US! Sorry if you think they should politely ask questions and not rock the boat as congress try to ram through health care legislation they don't even understand.
Most recently, the theme had been that the protesters were the upper privileged classes, who selfishly did not wish to imperil their own singular healthcare. Now apparently, they have morphed into something like gun clingers, with Nazi-like, mob-like, and un-American-like tendencies. -
your arguement for capitalism is indeed sound, but it doesnt factor in the wealthy and powerful actively trying to exploit the lower classes or at least try to stack the deck against them. Everyone is entitled or should be, to have a government that looks out for them, not just those a loot.
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The kooks have lost control of the narrative. They can’t hold town hall meetings now. One of these guys held his town hall meeting in a children’s hospital. In effect, the children are acting as human shields to prevent the citizens expressing their anger toward him.
But the idea that this is some neo-Nazi movement that is objecting to health care is preposterous! Nancy Pelosi has flown the coop if she seriously thinks that. And in fact, if we’re going to bandy around totalitarian shots, then I’m far more disturbed about this administration’s demand that people report names of persons sending e-mails or just engaging in casual conversation objecting to health care. Classic! The fact is the opposition to this is genuine, and growing, and it’s going to continue to grow when people understand what’s at stake. -
doesnt mean you should. Its pretty absurd. Are they trying to show that obama ain't the boss of them or something? Its all retarded any ways since this healthcare bill is a collassal sham that actually do anything. Much ado about nothing.
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I have no desire to get into such a debate with you. I'm pretty moderate and I can see that there is idiocy on both sides. What makes me angry currently is as I said- that the right refuses to accept and admit that a. there are people acting like absolutely ignorant assholes at these meetings and that b. many of them are getting riled up by misinformation campaigns. But hey, fuck off if you're not going to argue any of my points but instead try to twist things around to imply I said things I didn't
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some men just want to see the world burn
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"BEHAVING BADLY? This is a town hall meeting" Wait, are you EXCUSING bad behavior simply bc its a "town hall meeting"? What idiocy is that?
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by white trash rednecks does seem to imply racism to me. And most hicks are a couple steps (or whiskey shots) away from being Nazis anyways in my experience.
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Just like the commentators at Fox News have done, perpetuating the misinformation campaign. First, no one EVER "demanded" as you say, the name's of people "engaging in casual conversation" about Health Care. They *asked* pple to report any emails that seemed like a suspicious part of the very real misinformation that is floating around out there. Not the smartest idea, I admit, and a bit scary, but certainly its NOT at the extreme level you have made it out to be. Secondly, no one has ever called the protestors "nazis" that I have heard. What they have said is that people are coming with signs bearing swastikas, something that Hannity and Glenn Beck have just REFUSED to admit has happened. They do this so that they can twist the facts and paint Pelosi as some nutjob who has insulted every "hard-working American" who shows up to these meetings as a "nazi". Which is bullshit, bc the truth is, there ARE swastikas out there, and even one congressman had his door defiled by having a large swastika graffitied onto it. But will they admit this? No. Will they admit Pelosi was RIGHT when she said these things are showing up at meetings? No. Will they instead twist the facts and say that she called everyone a nazi? Yes. Its all just baloney.
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While I thought "Sicko" was genious and very powerful.... this one seems to lack any real substance as far as I could tell in this trailer. It was just him wondering around asking obvious questions.
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I was arguing your points...bringing up the 5 people who thought 9/11 was about "all gays in America" was neither here nor there. Your point...not mine.
If you want to be dick, fine. Should I now list all of the things I think window smashing war protestors should apologize for? Apologies are what you're looking for? What would be the point? -
...are you talking about?
There's not even an INFORMATION campaign out there -
DoctorWho, you seem like a good guy based on other TBs we've engaged in. But what I said first and initially was fairly moderate and then you jumped all over me for it for reasons I don't understand.
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Otherwise, how else do you explain all the people that believe there will literally be "death panels" and that this idea is tantamount to Nazi policies? Really, do these same people believe the rest of the world, that Canada and the UK, are run by Nazis? Then why is it okay for them to imply those things about the current administration? Its ludicrous.
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With circles and line through them..
But let me understand...you say there is proof of neo-nazi groups showing up to protest...Health Care Reform????
I didn't know they were such a civic minded bunch. Who knew? -
Do you really want to argue with me on that point?
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...and honestly, I wasn't jumping all over you. Text format is not an easy way reveal how someone is conveying ideas without body language etc. I'm actually typing quite relaxed and at ease lol.
As far as "death panels" go...Sarah Palin said it...so expect it to be magnified ad infinitum. Charles Krauthammer admonished her for such a term but clearly points out there IS a section of the bill deemphasizing patients who are just going to cost too much. ""It's not an outrage. It's surely not a death panel. But it is subtle pressure applied by society through your doctor. And when you include it in a health-care reform whose major objective is to bend the cost curve downward, you have to be a fool or a knave to deny that it's intended to gently point the patient in a certain direction..."
Frankly, there are FAR more bigger concerns for me at this moment about this whole debacle. -
That's a given isn't it?
My point is this...Political opposition is a fact of free societies. And if you can’t deal with it, as this cheapjack Chicago machine can’t seem to deal with it, then frankly, six months into a presidency, you’re not going to be able to take the heat of the next three and a half years. If you propose radical policies, it’s entirely legitimate to expect that other people out there in the country are going to have different views on it.
The kooks on this site aren't used to articulating a defense of their view...just attacking the other. -
Re: toadkillerdog: Your "point" about extremes "bending" around and meeting again assumes a 2D view of politics. MY points is that your view of politics has no bearing in reality. I got your point just fine. I don't need to read the entire fucking talkback to understand your grasp of politics is pedestrian and on a sophomore high school level. There is more than one axis in political thought - the graph I posted was an illustration of that. That you couldn't understand the graph says more about you than the graph. Nothing "bends around and meets in the middle." In that chart extreme Stalinism would be the upper left corner and extreme Fascism would be the extreme upper right corner. They don't "meet" except that they are extreme Authoritarian views. Marxism or the end-game of Communism as envisioned by Marx would be somewhere in the extreme bottom left corner. Take the most extreme Libertarian view you can (Objectivism maybe?) and it would be in the bottom right corner.
re: punisher5150: Everything you describe is a Conservative-Libertarian view (perhaps you would enjoy some Rand), not Centrist. Just because you aren't foaming at the mouth does not mean you are a "Centrist." I have known reasonable Conservatives, Liberals, Centrists, Libertarians, Communists, et al. Being calm and collected does not make one a Centrist, who is someone who has a balance of Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian, and Authoritarian views. -
Re: DoctorWho?: Who is to say the Administration isn't "dealing" with it? You should wait and see come Sept./Oct. and the shape of the final health bill and passage before you pronounce this President "DOA." You could look very foolish or very prescient. Even a bill without a Public Option would still have plenty of beneficial reforms, ie: the end of "preexisting conditions", insurance coopts, and other things. One bill, no matter how well crafted, cannot fix the entire system. Subsequent bills over the coming years will be needed (and we can argue over those too, I guess).
Re: Anyone who uses the phrase "idiocy on both sides": What does this even mean? It is a "false dilemma" or false equivalency. We are all susceptible to it, to some degree, but when people do it in politics it riles me up. A lot of times it's some kind of justification for being a fence sitter, or for not taking a strong stand on issues, or for throwing one's hands up and walking away from the discussion, or as some kind of justification for their own radical POV, or a way to artificially gain some bullshit "moral high ground", or just general anger at "th3 gubmint." As a Liberal I don't see Libertarians and Republicans as "two sides of the same coin," yet this is a continual charge by Libertarians against Democrats and Republicans. It smacks of two-dimensional thinking as much as only believing in the Left-Right paradigm smacks of 2D thinking. I recognize that there are many similar aspects to the way both the Republicans and Democrats govern. However, to me, it is because the "centrist" bloc of Dems is what drives their party right, and then the actual Right takes advantage of this. Also, when one gets into power, the status quo is so strong that even if the Libertarian Party gained a plurality in Congress most things would not change drastically.
Whatever party is in power, it will take The People to stand up and demand change before anything actually happens. We see this time and again throughout our history. Women's suffrage; Civil Rights; The right to health care benefits; The 40 hour work week. Gay Rights - all citizen-lead or organized initiatives over the past 100 years that shaped our country as it is today by forcing government's hand to act. Unfortunately we have (well-meaning) libertarians, notso well-meaning libertarians, Objectivists, the Republican party's religio-crazy base, False-equivalency "centrists" who would rather beat up Libruls and call Progressives "socialists" instead of stand together up against the Man and demand positive change (like the medicare for all, and other things).
I personally have a well-thought out agenda that takes into account many many ideas from the Progressive end and the Libertarian end to fix our government and our country. Funny thing about it is, every Libertarian I reveal it to loves it as long as I stick to the libertarian bullet points, but as soon as I start getting into Progressive items, suddenly compromise is off the table. The "taxes are evil" mantra raises its ugly head time after time and I'm called a Socialist. Boohoo. I hope ur happy with the status quo, because nothing is gonna change unless libertarian minded people and and liberal minded people knock heads together and come up with a plan to take our country back permanently from the Rightist-corporatist goons that have hijacked it little-by-little since the end of WW2.
Smugly spouting, "Well both sides are crazy!!!11" does nothing to change the status quo. This whole notion that "both sides are batshit insane" or "both sides are equally bad" is bullshit when you look at the 2000 election. Does anyone here truly truly believe that Al Gore would have been as "equally bad" as George W. Bush? Does anyone really believe we would have attacked Iraq in 2003 with an Albert Gore Administration in power? Was Al Gore as "equally insane" as George Dubya and Darth Cheney? Fuck. No. For fuck sake: No.
tl;dr: Stop using that phrase. It's not "morally astute" and it doesn't shore up your views one bit. Just because there are two people yelling at each other does not mean one person does not have the preponderance of evidence in their favor. -
I don't think that has to be explained...
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"Frankly, there are FAR more bigger concerns for me at this moment about this whole debacle." True that.
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Aug 22, 2009 9:02:31 PM CDT
those greenwald and krugman articles were interesting
by martinlutherkrangjr
pretty much summing up how i feel about obama these days. i still have "hope" but its that he's not a complete corporate schill.
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AND HE CAN EAT SPICY FOOD AND LIKE 8 LARGE PIZZAS AND TALK ABOUT HOW IT ALL MADE HIM POOP THE NEXT DAY. I'D WATCH IT.
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If it's wrong for one person or group, then it's wrong for another person or group. Sorry to blow your minds but it seems like some of us don't grasp this truth.And some other words of wisdom:If you think that 'people' are too greedy and too easily corrupted to let capitalism run rampant, then 'people' are too greedy and too easily corrupted to let government run rampant. Which one is worse when allowed to roll unabated? IMO, I think there's an easy answer (historically proven, too).BUT we also need to discuss the huge problems that arise when they become intertwined (you may agree that we're dealing with a similar situation now). We're all fucked then.
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Aug 22, 2009 9:40:57 PM CDT
Socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried. Thats a better
by couchtrip105
When will someone make a movie about the horrors of Socialism? That actually makes some sense.
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i have nothin against fat men or fat men with egos believe me. i just hate seein idiots like michael moore who obviously have a past history of bullying from schoolmates etc.
then in his adult years he makes a documentary, people start sayin ooh that was good. his ego gets inflated. getting worse with everything he commits to film.
until his ego starts showin through in his work taking away from any story or concept that tha film was meant to portray and becoming a documentary about michael moore than about anything else.
so as i said before ive got nothing against fat people with egos jus fat men who let their egos take over the creative process and forcefeed us drivel with only minor connection the main story and major connection with michael moores fat head being all over the screen -
... he lives in a free society. Delusional much Doc?
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Yeah, tell that to Western Europe...
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lol a free society. a "free" society that promotes freedom through methods of control
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I don't know what your point is. It is absolutely crazy to think you can paint a picture of someone from the 3 or 4 political ideals out of hundreds (literally) and deduce that I am Conservative-Libertarian. I have seen those 4-paneled charts numerous times. I have studied politics and American foreign and domestic policy, so I do understand that politics is much more complicated than left or right, and that there are Authoritarian-Libertarian views as well which 100% overlap the Conservative-Liberal arena. I've taken dozens of those 4-paneled "tests" and no matter what questions are asked I always end up near the very center, sometimes a tad below the line in the Liberatarian (I, for one, do not believe in 100% free markets as Libertarians due, as I said in my posts there HAS to be some government regulation and control of the markets or the greedy at the top eat the common man alive), but when I say a tad it still considered center. And yes, I do like some of what Rand says. However, I do not agree with her completely.
As for foaming at the mouth, a Talkback on a site that promotes movies is not exactly the place where I will let someone "text" me into a frenzy:) -
Aug 23, 2009 12:04:15 AM CDT
DOCWHO, I USED TO THINK YOU WERE A REASONABLE PERSON
by bringingsexyback
but your performance in this talkback proved me wrong.
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It's clear to me that DocWho doesn't even have the faintest clue what Obama's proposed healthcare reform entails.
None.
He's just taking pleasure in seeing a lefty President being thwarted by ignorant, armed, Hitler heiling loons. -
I like these movies more than movies like Bruno. Though I dont always agree with everything, its always interesting to see someones take on something, done so passionately. Its a good watch.
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So I guess you went to nothing but private schools. Take your helicopter from place to place to avoid driving on the roads and highways. Have your own private security force. Your own private military. Your own private fire dept. Never played in a public park. Don't have parents or grandparents who are on Medicare or collect a social security check.
Yes, that socialism fails terribly. -
Too bad the U.S. has never been a pure capitalist country. But even with the modicum of capitalism we have used, we became the greatest country (financial and otherwise) on earth in just 200 short years. If you say capitalism has failed, you are a complete moron.
Socialism on the other hand has NEVER worked, yet the idiots in control continue to use it. Gee, I wonder why? It can't be because the want even MORE power is it? Nah, that's silly talk. They truly want what's best for us peasants. -
Too bad pure socialism has never been tried either. 100 years (probably more like 50) from now we will have single payer healthcare and people will wonder why these zealous idealogues opposed it.
Although personally, I wouldn't mind if we had stiffer regulations on private healthcare (you cannot kick anyone off if they become sick, you cannot refuse to insure previously existing conditions, etc.), a strong public option is the only way to go. Healthcare cannot be run on a for-profit model. It leads to decisions to minimize pay-outs to maximize profits, leaving the insured to bear the risk. This religious belief that people have in every man for himself capitalism ignores the fact that we live in a society and your neighbor's health, education, etc. do affect you. Another area where pure capitalism does not work is environmentalism. There is no short-term economic incentive not to pollute or overconsume resources. -
capitalism are wrong, and economists largly accept this. three that spring some that spring to mind immediately are: we don't have asymmetric infomation, people will act in a rational self interested fashion, there are externalities, there is little to no agency problem.to reorganise the words of Churchill: it aint a perfect system but it is the best we have.
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Who knows, we'll see.
Let's hope to Jeebus -
Virtually no one, left or right, possesses any substantial knowledge of politics or economics other than rote talking points. However, EVERYONE is qualified to call the other guy a douche, asshole, gaping cunt, etc. Me? I piss my pants at whole spectacle every time.
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... you're a douche.
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There's still too many people who ate the whole George W. Bush retard shit twice around here.
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I was hoping Michael Moore was leaving together with Bush. Yet he's still bitching about that guy.
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Aug 23, 2009 8:44:19 AM CDT
WHO COULD WATCH A WOMAN SCREAMING "HEIL HITLER!" AT AN ISRAELI
by bringingsexyback
and people screaming death to a black President, and claim they're not Neo-Nazis?
DocWho, along with assorted other fucktards. -
Aug 23, 2009 8:52:28 AM CDT
DOCWHO'S HEROINES ARE BETSY MCCAUGHEY, THE HEIL HITLER WOMAN
by bringingsexyback
and Sarah Palin.
Smart, attractive women need not apply. -
Well said Punisher. eXie - to not understand that life and ideals involve gradations - that people in one camp can and do borrow from others, that they can and do share views and values with others, even when they would seemingly disagree about most everything else, means you are a narrow minded tongue cleaner who knows very little about real world politics.
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He's in it for the money and the ho's
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Am I the first? I love insulting those who's opinions I disagree with by pointing out their failures in their appearance.
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Whatever they are, I'll bet they're all fat.
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Didn't you know? Spread it around.
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why would anyone take your challenge? you make it constantly, get good answers then ignore them.
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Have to say I was a big MM fan after watching his tv series and Bowling for Columbine initially, also read his books and went to see him live in Glasgow. That started my dislike for the guy based on his ability to not answer questions from level headed left wing persons asking reasonable questions, but giving drink stoners all the time in the world to talk their shit. The problem is that he is a political comedian that had the worst thing happen, he became relevent with Bowling and had the youth of the world hanging on his every word, and instead of then following it up with trying to be honest he continued with his own agenda skewing the truth and belittling people for his own amusement. I should have guessed he would do this after the abomonation that was the Charlton Heston interview in Bowling, it was such a hack job and attack on a grumpy senile old man, which sadly took away from the interesting fact his film made, that it wasnt gun control or the evil NRA, it was the culture of fear created by the government and media that has allowed violent crime to increase exponentially over the decades, the Heston interview just smacked of pettiness and distracted from the real message in the film.
Then Faranheight 9/11 took things way too far, I know his hatred of Bush, and I share it, but any facts where drowned out just like in Dude, Where's my Country, by retoric and misdirection. Bush was a fuckin idiot yes, but responsible no, I dont think you could ever call the man responsible for anything. I gave up on MM after that as even though I agreed mostly with everything he was saying I couldnt stomach his right bashing anymore everyone who disagreed with him was painted as a holywood villain, the only thing missing was an English Accent.
That said I havent seen sicko, but this one looks as if he's back on Topic now and back doing what he's good at, well he doesnt have a republican govt to rail against anymore, so I'm hopeful that he's back and being relevant again, I might even check out Sicko now.
Just my 2 cents -
Because people are involved. We may reach a point in our society where we have machines perform the multitude of tasks we do now. We're getting there, right? And as we become less and less attached to actual labor, we will find ourselves becoming more detached from what our ancestors would deem "reality" or the human condition... until a disaster arrives, like a hurricane or something. Maybe we haven't evolved enough to survive our own technology. Maybe we need to return to a pre-industrial state. Biologically we have trouble with the foods we've created (refined sugar, trans fats are killing more people than anything else). And emotionally, we're delving into widespread depression. Perhaps man is going to cave in on itself. What was capitalism in Adam Smith's time doesn't seem to be the state of the system today. And socialism is equally suspect.
Personally, I think this country is too big. too many people, too much noise, no coherent leadership, etc. In a few centuries, if there are people left, they will look back and marvel at our society because never before has there been so much information made available to a people and despite this, we will be seen as painfully ignorant and close-minded. Sad but true, my friends. I need a cigarette... -
Even a gay Jew like Barney Frank. P.S. If you want to read an interesting thread on Health Care go over to rogerebert.com He's written two blogs on it and received responses from people from Canada, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, The U.K. and many other countries with "socialist" health care explaining and defending how their programs work. Very informative stuff.
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Moore's movies are a blend of fact and fiction. What they have done, very effectively might I add, is to get people talking about the topics he presents. Like him or hate him, he has done a good thing by illuminating the fallacies of our government and getting the controversy turned up.
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"and people screaming death to a black President". LOL... First of all...prove that!
Secondly, your righteous indignation is hilarious! My point is this: You claim to be appalled when this happens yet you are the same type of yahoo taking glee in the endless 'death to Bush' stuff that occurred for years.
I know, I know...defending Bush against death threats makes me a right wing fanatic. Ha!
Don't you see? This shows you to be cut from the same cloth as the people you despise.
I'll leave you to ponder that for a while. -
I would like to reply to something you wrote but reading back on your post...there ain't much there bro :S
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I know you will laughingly think me a neo con for writing the following so I will preface it by saying...
A) Blow me.
And B) I'm more centrist than you'll ever be...it just seems extreme when you view it from your fringe, Marxist, tin foil hat wearing, tree house where you and McGoo have sleepovers and run around in your Obama Underoos.
Do you two share a sleeping bag?
But I digress. Remember the days of people marching every week through American cities with signs saying kill Bush, explicit threats to kill Bush, pictures of Bush with a red blood bullet hole through the center of his forehead? None of these guys were ever prosecuted.
When you show me mass marches like that for Obama...then maybe you'll have a leg to stand on. Please. -
eventhough he is full of shit. i like to see movies where idiots fuck with people.
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Also, we are a center left nation rgardless of what Fox and others would have you think. This is the result of a simple-minded interpretation that because more people identify as conservative than liberal we must be a center-right nation. However, if you poll people on all the issues, people poll liberal:conservative roughly 2:1 pretty consistently, which suggests that many of the "moderates" are actually liberals.
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http://belowthebeltway.com/2009/08/13/outside-a-town-hall-in-maryland-death-to-obamaand-his-kids/
It hasn't escaped us that you also dodged addressing the Heil Hitler woman. Which is why everyone is calling you out here. Your blatant defense of NeoNazis by invoking war protesters of the past is ... no defense. -
defending anyone lobbing death threats against Bush, or his children for that matter.
But you're doing exactly that for the Obama's self-proclaimed enemies. -
Aug 24, 2009 8:06:45 AM CDT
I ALSO WOULDN'T DEFEND ANYONE BRINGING AN ASSAULT RIFLE
by bringingsexyback
to a Bush town hall. Legal or not, the intent is to threaten and intimidate. Such a fucker needs to be jailed. Anyone who had done that to Bush would've been arrested and beaten.
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Those are some of the most brilliant posts I've ever read!!! Does BarackWOW come with a free Awesome Auger, for digging the GOP's grave? If so I'l take 10 please!!!!!!
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I'm forwarding your post to everyone in my address book, just so you know. Pure genius. The Right could never come up with anything this funny and intelligent. All they can manage is bringing firearms to town halls and Seig Heiling Israeli- Americans.
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Obama is the good kind. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the NeoCons ... Bad!
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The bailouts themselves were what a capitalist system would prevent, survival of the fittest, remember that?
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"You would address me if you had the balls,"...
LOL right. Because there was so much potential in that conversation right?? Like the part where you said I was raped by uncle or my dad? Or maybe the part wher you said I was a stankewhore- something or other.
McGoo: You were rapred by your dad as a child
DocWho?: No you were
McGoo: No YOU were
DocWho?: No YOU were!
Grow the fuck up you mental midget. The day you post something indicating you have half an IQ point is the day I acknowledge you by slapping you in the face with my dick. -
Corporatism and the corporate mystique is what git us into this mess. The government has been hobbled by years of terrible Republican policies. The elite being benefitted are not politicians, they are CEO's, executives and behind the scenes investors.
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"Which is why everyone is calling you out here. "...By "EVERYONE" you mean you an Mcgoo?
"Your blatant defense of NeoNazis " LOL really? Now you sound like CTM... did I lynch black people in the 60's too? LOL
"Such a fucker needs to be jailed." Yes sir
"Anyone who had done that to Bush would've been arrested and beaten." Yes sir. ANYONE doing this to ANY president desrves to get their clock cleaned. BUT NO...not in YOUR eyes. With Bush it was 'speaking truth to power'...if it happens to Obama it's a hatred indicative of EVERYONE who did not vote for him.
Is your bigotry not on full display?
BTW your bringing up some kook bitch who said Heil Hitler is a nice diversion but it won't work.
I weary of having to explain the obvious but...I bring up you war protestor buddies in light of you being so SHOCKED that someone would wish death upon a president...when in fact you took great glee at all of the Kill Bush, burning effigy's etc. If someone carried a picture of Obama with a bullet in his head...HOLY SHIT could you imagine the firestorm?
Please explain your double standard...
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...know JACK SHIT about the health care field. Don't even go there.
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The website Zombietime is just collated dozens and dozens of these pictures from marches of ordinary Americans demanding the execution of their president that were going on 2003 right up to the end of Bush’s term.
Which one was yours?
Twat. -
My healthcare cost to my insurers is almost nil because I eat a raw plant-based diet and I exercise.
Meanwhile, your insurer's much-higher costs to compensate for your love of Burger King, Taco Bell, McDonald's and KFC is causing my rates to go up, when they should be going down.
Why should I or my company have to pay because fatties like you can't eat a salad instead of a fucking Double Angus with Bacon and Cheddar?
That's why I hope reform passes so the fatties will be sent to the death panel and I'll save money on my premiums. -
so effectively. Notice how earlier he DEFENDED THE RIGHTS OF THE ARMED PROTESTER WHO BROUGHT AN ASSAULT RIFLE TO OBAMA'S TOWNHALL, but now ... conveniently ... agrees that he should be jailed?
LOL!! I hope he never becomes a defense attorney. -
Aug 24, 2009 3:42:06 PM CDT
WHAT KIND OF "CONSERVATIVE CENTRIST" VISITS THE ZOMBIELAND SITE?
by bringingsexyback
LOL again!!!
I'm Liberal to the core but even I don't go to Moveon.org. Doc, I suggest you quit while you're, well, you're really far behind but I suggest you at least make an attempt to save face and bail. -
and fresh!
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If you believe that politicians haven't benefited from the policies that they put in place, then you're a fool. There are so many examples I don't know where to begin, but the point is that the more control government has, the more corporations are able to manipulate policy. Corruption will always exist, but when the government has so many hands into so many aspects of your life, that corruption is going to seep into your life as well.Here's just one example:http://tinyurl.com/d6x9zt
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You don't have the brains to Google 1 of a billion examples of this shit? Okay junior here your go...
www.zombieland.com/zom blog/?p=621
Now here's a little game...switch all references of Bush to Obama and watch your erection disappear.
Your simple dude. You think your endless bloviating works but it doesn't.
How does it feel to work so hard at 19 paragraph treatises only to be blown away by one or two sentences on my part. Hell I'm at work with one hand tied behind my back...LOL When I get home I'll be able to engae in a more proper, surgical like evisceration.
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You and BSB just emabarassed the the hell out of yourselves with that hapless health care song and dance.
Face it...your a conformist. A tool. A mindless automaton with not one hint of an original thought in your head.
Sucks to be you. -
THAT was the first time you've seen those pics? May I ask exactly what rock you were living under for 8 years? This proves how woefully uninformed and willfully ignorant you truly are.
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Looks like DocWho's been photochopping again!
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Youporn is a much more entertaining site.
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armed men threatening the Commander-in-Chief.
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The internet is my playground.
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You're a Daily Kos Kid all the way!
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I always hate myself later when I comment on these things, but sometimes you have to point out the insanity. One political party is not better than the other. Never in recorded history has one party been better than the other. Read it and understand it: Both political parties are evil.
Is it not kind of funny how when Republicans have some questionable characters with questionable motives in office (Cheney and his oil interests for one) that most of you Dems are all up in arms about corruption? Bush lied about taking us to war! The Bush admin isn’t telling the whole truth! Now we have Obama and his criminal cronies who are every bit as criminal as the ones who just left. They lie about what they said five minutes ago! They ignore the will of the people they represent. We go from an administration that will go all crazy and commit some questionable acts to protect what they think of as good America – right to an administration that goes all crazy and commits some questionable acts to destroy what they think of as bad America. We go from being kept in the dark about the war to being kept in the dark about healthcare. We go from America can do no wrong to America can do no right. We go from maybe torturing terror suspects to releasing killers to go free. Which is the worst crime? How can you decide? We barely survived Bush only to have Obama come in and probably take us the rest of the way to hell.
You hyper-partisans are just as bad as and maybe worse than the politicians. You are so blinded by one side or the other that truth and right no longer have any meaning at all. You all live in a fabricated world in your own mind where your views are automatically right and anything from the other side is blatantly wrong. Hyper-partisanship should be classified as a mental disorder…probably some form of dementia. It needs to be treated. Republicans and Democrats will destroy America and the only way to make things better is to disband both parties and have no more parties at all. The wrong people are in power. Quit enabling their corruption and evil by supporting a broken party system. The founding fathers really wanted nothing to do with political parties. That should tell you something right there. -
...based on that title but you make some cool observations. The Founders had it down. They understood human nature as well as nascent versions of democracy from ancient Greece. What we have today is basically a dumpster fire.
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See how persuasive repetition can be when Caps Lock is on?
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...just breeding more far left idiots.
All you "Aint It Cool" fans need to have wireless access. It's the only way you'll have time to access the site, while you're waiting in line for health care, weekly food allotments, etc.
Come to think of it, the new regime might not allow such free speech on these forums, anyway. -
...is the Ron Jeremy of Liberal Porn.
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Their commentary on most things is like listening to 1980s heel announcers on wrestling. They'll say blatantly obviously wrong shit just to get a rise out of the straight man. Look, the bailouts were started by Bush, continued by Obama, and will continue under whoever is next. Grow the fuck up. It couldn't be 'free money' forever for the top couple percent without SOME kind of repercussion.My advice is to save some coin, get yourself a house. Or, continue working at your non-manufacturing job, patting the sweat from your brow, because most likely your job's not going anywhere. Except to the foreign lesbian abortionists from Mexico who TOOK UR JARBS!But I kid the Right Wingers. Can't we just go back to hating just Muslims again like we did on 9/12. Glenn Beck seems to think this will work, and he's a paragon of stability.
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who wants to ensure that he is treated fairly and properly by his health insurer.
Fucking putz. -
YOU DON'T QUESTION IT.
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but if one side lets down, the other will win. Fuck that shit!
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Someone please put Apple Octopus before the Retard Panel.
I'll bet he registers 10 on the Fucktard meter. -
Aug 25, 2009 9:08:31 AM CDT
MICHAEL JACKSON WOULD STILL BE ALIVE IF HEALTHCARE WAS FIXED
by bringingsexyback
We still miss you Michael!!!!!!
Damn you Conrad Murray you piece of shit!!!!! -
If they want to get raped by Cigna, be my guest.
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instead of bailing those fukkers out. Then capitalism would be truly dying and all these a-holes would have to deal with real socialism. Instead we have socialist welfare for the rich. I don't hear you a-holes bitching about that.
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because they can't call him a fascist because as Fareal metiones the dictionary definition of fascism is corporate capitalist control of the government which is pretty close to what we have in America today.
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You right wing a-holes are supposedly pro-small business. How do you reconcile that?
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Stabby do you or anyone else here even know what the public option is? You clueless little fucks. So health care is a clusterfuck and you good little drones think the government is the answer??? Brainwashed zombies.
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I don't care if it would help small business (unlikely), it doesn't matter. The government has no Constitutional authority to run a health care plan.
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Aug 25, 2009 12:05:36 PM CDT
THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO CONSTITUIONAL AUTHORITY TO RUN SOCIAL SECU
by bringingsexyback
or Medicare. I expect GunRunner to opt out of any payments he may be due.
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Especially coming from you. Or do you think "food allotments" are on Obama's agenda?
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You need to shut up. I'm telling you as someone who can't stand watching you make a fool of yourself.
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Aug 25, 2009 12:08:45 PM CDT
DON'T WORRY APPLE YOUR FOOD RATION COUPONS FOR BIG MACS
by bringingsexyback
will still be there, you fat slut.
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dams? No? Let's dismantle the Hoover then.
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fire departments? No? Let GunRunner's house burn then.
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So what is the answer?
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Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional, and if I could opt out of them, I would. They should be dismantled, and anyone in the 18-35 age group with any brains knows that there will not be anything left in either program by the time we're eligible.The Hoover Damn was built by a compact made up of several states in the Colorado River area, so it was not unconstitutional. Fire departments are run by local governments. You're just one big fail.
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your fire department? What state do you live in?
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Once again, fire departments are local government, not federal or state government. In Texas, our Constitution even has a statute exempting fire engines and fire equipment owned by counties from being taxed and seized by the state government.Read up on the 10th Amendment. If you want Nationalized Health Care, the US Constitution has an amendment process. Even the Anti-Saloon League and the Temperance Union were able to pass the 18th Amendment banning alcohol. You should have an easy time getting a Health Care Amendment though if its as popular as you make it out to be. Better get to it.
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I'm ashamed that you are a fellow Whovian. A public option is a healthcare program provided by the Government as an alternative option to For Profit Healthcare plans. It is a compromise by the democrats in leu of a single payer government run healthcare for all. The basic fact is that you conservatives don't have a say in the debate and that the dems will soon tire of the Repugs obstructionism and just cut them out of the equation like Bush did to the Dems when he had the House and Senate.
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Its the Dems who are holding this up, moron. The Democrats have the votes to pass something through, but they still haven't. It has nothing to do with "Repugs obstructionism", the Democrats have a filibuster proof majority. The problem is that even your own party doesn't trust this President.
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Okay, but your fire dept. is a municipal organization (in your case) backed by tax dollars. It doesn't gain income from competing with other fire agencies. The point is, if you live more than ten miles from a large metropolitan center, you do benefit from Rural Electrification, a socialist policy to run electricity out to people, to make sure we had an infrastructure.Taxes aren't bad, they're required to pay for programs or services that we the people mandate as useful or necessary.I put it to you that being against taxation puts you in a large group of people who pay taxes, or feel they pay too much. You know who likes Social Security and Medicare? My grandmother, who, along with her well-earned pension, is able to live with her payments from these socialist programs.Not all socialism is evil, and not all capitalism is good.We should all stop screaming and acting like ten gallon asshats long enough to see that we should all agree: Michael Moore is fat. End of story.
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Rural Electrification is the example Al Franken used in his Rush Limbaugh book as an example of a government program that worked, so I suspect that's where you came up with it. I always thought it was sad that he had to reach so far back to an archaic New Deal program to dig up a federal program that worked, and I think its irrelavent because I don't think anyone can make the case that rural America would still be without electricity if it hadn't been for a government program; it obviously would not be. I credit Nicolai Tesla much more than FDR for rural electrification. But leaving that aside, I wasn't talking about taxes or socialism vs. Capitalism. I was talking specifically about the Constitution. I didn't say I was against taxes, in fact the 16th Amendment codifies the fedgov's ability to collect income tax. The fact that your grandmother likes Social Security and Medicare is really irrelevant. I don't see Constitutional authority for the federal government to run a compulsory nationwide retirement or health care program. If you disagree, please point me to where it does.
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As for Rural Electrification as an example...it was more an example in the book of Republicans coming up with that example when he posed as a Conservative to them. But it's such an obvious example of 'socialism' working, that it bears repeating. He said 'Name one successful government program' to them under the auspices that liberals don't love America..My point is, that RE is a socialist program that worked. I don't give a shit if you give credit to FDR for that or not, the facts state that the New Deal brought about rural electrification. And the people who live in my community had power because of it! Hooray for toasters.As to the Constitution providing health care insurance and Social Security: Pretty much decided by the Supreme Court, you Madisonian Consructionist, you, though if you think the laws of your community are based on just what the Constitution says, you're far off from the reality. Nowhere in the Constitution does it state how many times I can say fuck on the radio. Constitution doesn't provide for the FCC either, but has been upheld as Constitutional:) Here's the quote: Justice Cardozo wrote the opinions in Helvering vs. Davis and Steward Machine. After giving the 1788 dictionary the consideration he thought it deserved, he made clear the Court's view on the scope of the government's spending authority: "There have been statesman in our history who have stood for other views. . .We will not resurrect the contest. It is now settled by decision. The conception of the spending power advocated by Hamilton . . .has prevailed over that of Madison. . ." Arguing that the unemployment compensation program provided for the general welfare, Cardozo observed: ". . .there is need to remind ourselves of facts as to the problem of unemployment that are now matters of common knowledge. . .the roll of the unemployed, itself formidable enough, was only a partial roll of the destitute or needy. The fact developed quickly that the states were unable to give the requisite relief. The problem had become national in area and dimensions. There was need of help from the nation if the people were not to starve. It is too late today for the argument to be heard with tolerance that in a crisis so extreme the use of the moneys of the nation to relieve the unemployed and their dependents is a use for any purpose [other] than the promotion of the general welfare."
And finally, he extended the reasoning to the old-age insurance program: "The purge of nation-wide calamity that began in 1929 has taught us many lessons. . . Spreading from state to state, unemployment is an ill not particular but general, which may be checked, if Congress so determines, by the resources of the nation. . . But the ill is all one or at least not greatly different whether men are thrown out of work because there is no longer work to do or because the disabilities of age make them incapable of doing it. Rescue becomes necessary irrespective of the cause. The hope behind this statute is to save men and women from the rigors of the poor house as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them when journey's end is near."
With these cases decided, Justice Stone could then dispose of the third case in short order. "Together the two statutes now before us embody a cooperative legislative effort by state and national governments, for carrying out a public purpose common to both, which neither could fully achieve without the cooperation of the other. The Constitution does not prohibit such cooperation." 6That Act, was added to the lawbooks. So, while not in the Constitution, is a law that has proven to be Constitutional. If you don't like the law, you should bring it before the government, find out who your representative is, and have them run on the 'END SOCIAL SECURITY' platform. I'm sure he'll get the elderly vote. ;) -
...was not socialism. The government did not own the means of production or industry, and government workers were not the ones building the power stations and installing the power lines. The program was simply a series of loans the federal government made to local governments and co-ops. It was private industries that did all the work. Was it Constitutional? Probably not, but like the space program, there's 100,000 other government programs ahead of it that I'd rather cut. Rural electrification would have happened anyway, since the profitability of providing electrical power to non-urban areas had been proven years earlier.What's ironic is that you, along with Al Franken, chose this one tiny New Deal plan as your major argument-ending example of a government program that "works", while obviously leaving out the failures of gargantuan bureaucracy in everything from the War on Poverty to the War on Drugs. I see nowhere in Cardozo's quote where he mentions anything about health care, and while I'm an admirer of his, the issue of unemployment compensation belongs with the states, as it is not a Constitutional function of the fedgov. If he could have looked into the future and seen the entitlement mentality and government dependence that the welfare state has created, I'm sure he would've decided differently.The Constitution is a very easy to read document; it was not written for lawyers or judges, but "for the people." It's obvious that no Founding Father envisioned Washington as a provider insurance or retirement funds.Liberals have a keen propensity to look at the Constitution and see things that aren't there, like the "right" to health care or the right to an abortion. But take something that IS in the Constitution like the 2nd or 10th Amendment, and all of a sudden they're claiming they don't exist, or that they don't mean what they say.The Constitution is a limit on government, not a list of entitlements for you and your grandmother, and relying on the courts to protect your liberties is a sure way to lose them. You have to stop this crap before the politicians ram it down your throat, which hopefully it looks like we'll be able to do with ObamaCare.
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..I would dismantle that as well. The public airwaves don't need a policeman. With new information sources more prevalent, the FCC is frantically looking for ways to still be relevant, and I'll bet they're eyeing the Internet and social media as their next regulation playground. Dismantle it and let consumers make the decision.
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...
Love story?
Ridiculous. -
Keep in mind, it is the government's constitutional authority to protect the people of the United States. That is why those agencies have no competition. In U.S. Free Markets, government's role is to regulate as little as possible, but when it does the regulation HAS to be to protect the common person from big companies taking advantage of them, like preventing monopolies, etc. Unfortunately, the our representatives in U.S. government lost sight of this and passed laws and regulations that ALLOWED the companies to take advantage of the common person. This is why the financial crisis occurred, and is not the fault of Capitalism as it was designed to work in the U.S.
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