Cool News
‘그의 한국어 우수합니다!!’ Wednesday Brings LOST’s Two-Hour Fifth-Season Finale!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Check out the preteen cast for tonight’s episode:
* Emily Rae Argenti as young Kate
* Rylee Fansler as young Juliet
* Keegan Boos as young Sawyer
* Tanner Maguire as young Tom
Young Tom!
I loved Hurley’s bluff last week when Dr. Chang asked if he served in the Korean War. I love that Hurley, since returning to the island, is no longer being portrayed as a tragic figure.
If the Island and Jacob haven’t been talking to Ben, how did he know how to find and work the Frozen Donkey Wheel?
Who is Jacob? Why is John Locke determined to see him die?
What was Daniel Faraday really up to between 1974 and 1977?
And if ABC’s remake of “V” goes to series (as it’s expected to), how will Elizabeth Mitchell star in it and “Lost” at the same time?
If all the time travel is about to stop, as co-showrunner Carlton Cuse claims, how will Sawyer and Kate become Adam and Eve?
ABC says of tonight’s two-hour fifth-season finale, titled “The Incident”:
Jack's decision to put a plan in action in order to set things right on the island is met with some strong resistance by those close to him, and Locke assigns Ben a difficult task. Guest starring are L. Scott Caldwell as Rose, Sam Anderson as Bernard, John Terry as Christian Shephard, Nestor Carbonell as Richard Alpert, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, Francois Chau as Dr. Pierre Chang, Patrick Fischler as Phil, Eric Lange as Radzinsky, Zuleikha Robinson as Ilana, Brad William Henke as Bram, Jon Gries as Roger Linus, Alice Evans as younger Eloise Hawking, Andrea Gabriel as Noor "Nadia" Abed Jaseem, Kevin Chapman as Mitch, Mark Pellegrino as man #1, Titus Welliver as man #2, Emily Rae Argenti as young Kate, Tanner Maguire as young Tom, George Gerdes as Mr. Springer, Agnes Kwak as Aunt Soo, Amy Stewart as mother, Rylee Fansler as young Juliet, Savannah Lathem as young Rachel, William Makozak as Captain Bird, Daniel James Kunkel as anesthesiologist, Sonya Masinovsky as Russian nurse, Keegan Boos as young Sawyer, Colby French as Uncle Doug, John Pete as prison clerk, Michael Trisler as father, Sally Davis as woman and Adam Bazzi as cab driver. Written by Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse and directed by Jack Bender.
9 p.m. Wednesday. ABC.
Follow Herc on Twitter!
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Lost 5.x (Blu-ray)
Lost: The Complete Fifth Season Dharma Initiation Kit
Lost: The Complete Fifth Season Dharma Initiation Kit (Blu-ray)
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Lost 1.x-5.x (Blu-ray)
$18.99 Complete Animated Trek!!
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Lost 5.x
Lost 5.x (Blu-ray)
Lost: The Complete Fifth Season Dharma Initiation Kit
Lost: The Complete Fifth Season Dharma Initiation Kit (Blu-ray)
Lost 1.x-5.x
Lost 1.x-5.x (Blu-ray)
$18.99 Complete Animated Trek!!
DS9, Voyager & Enterprise: $37.99 Or Less!!
SALE TREK!!
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+ Expand All
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dammit
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Can't wait for tonight. Bring it on, Darlton.
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I hope this talkback lasts until next season's premiere.
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yiou
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come on over!!!
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this forthcoming episode makes me want to murder children because i want to see it so bad. and dexter's wife's ex-husband is a creepy prick.
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Best Lost line ever... And Sayid better not die tonight...
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Here’s hoping the Island goes all Alderaan tonight.
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You'll see.
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SHIT YEAH! Season finale week is always the most bitter sweet time of the year. Your favorite shows are ending but they're usually going to do some crazy ass shit before saying goodbye for the summer, or even for the entire year.
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http://bit.ly/2LZHIT
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Finale night. Lost bitches!
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is soooo Jacob.
Man #2 is young Paolo. -
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!
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This episode is gonna buttfuck me and never call back.
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I try to not notice them but Herc just lays them all out in his red text!
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Be ready BIATCHES.
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that guy used to ruin everything for me. i miss that cocksucker.
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I like it. Could use curtains.
;-> -
As the writers mentioned a few weeks ago that they were inspired by "The Prisoner" I reckon that Jacob will turn out to be John Locke. Also didn't Jack's grandfather who was featured for about a minute in an episode a few weeks back call Kate "Freckles". Could Sawyer be Jack's grandfather?
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jack is his own father.
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is his own mother. Hes a hemmy
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...I ran out to get someo ribs and now look at me....im nothing...well except a man with ribs to eat.
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Finally we get to see what happened to them!
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ew dot com has an interesting idea for why locke wants to kill jacob: out of mercy. jacob is an old man trapped alpert-style in existence and needs locke to put him out of his misery, hence his "help me" comment in the shack from a couple seasons ago. sounds plausible, right?
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"Also didn't Jack's grandfather who was featured for about a minute in an episode a few weeks back call Kate "Freckles". Could Sawyer be Jack's grandfather?" Let's just say I appreciate your "outside-the-box" thinking. Even if you seem to have left the box on the side of the highway, and flown to China with this one.
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is a REAL man!
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As in 'Hermaphrodite, a 'Hemi' is something ENTIRELY different.
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it's that gentleman in the cabin!
psych!
by the way what's that fat tub of lard doing in his animation in the upper left hand website corner? i don't get the reference. it's just a waddling fat man in a cave to me. -
Of Deadwood and many many other TV shows...I could be wrong but is he the 3rd Deadwood actor to appear on the show? Also I'm guessing that he has a big role in Lost next season. He's not a huge actor, but he's also not the kind of actor you just get for some random role that could be played by an extra
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Ever notice that the name "Jack" is derived from the name "John."
In Hebrew, "Jacob" means "Supplanter." So perhaps, John Locke and Jack Shephard have a relationship they don't know about. Also, Jacob and the Island are too separate entities - with Jacob using the Island's power to stay alive. The Island has sent Locke to kill Jacob. -
...of a milkshake having man...I learns from the best
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The spoiler is that halfway through the finale, LOST becomes animated.And, with joke by Seth mcFarlane.However, the real twist is that they are only airing commericals for KFC and Mexican coke. prepare for the mindfuck fellas!
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Go there.
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raise the stakes. kill the fatman. where's stargate guy? THATS who i miss. remember his quote "you all like lost because you all love garbage and now nothing will taste as bittersweet to you as garbage. you love garbage because you see yourselves in it. garbage." tell me thats not the funniest thing ever. come on out, stargate guy! it's lost night!
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i am fighting back tears my man.the "gato malo" is pleased with your compliment.
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...just ends up being a really large bottle of mexican coke with a wig on
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Purple Rose of Cairo? It does look like he's walking off-screen...
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i don't buy it.I expect deaths, but I figured it'd be the new huys-like MILES,CHANG and JULIET,maybe even an old favorite or two.And,lindeloff has been saying that tonight will "end" the time-traveling , so THAT makes me excited.that, and knowing that I can march into KFC and order a "kernel reese" make me happy.
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except for the lesbians. terrible movie. now flame me for bringing down your precious david lynch down a peg.
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or is Locke looking old as fuck? i mean, he was a fit older guy when the show started...now he's falling apart.he's got HUGE man-titties, and like a double chin.Terry is a great actor-but it's been bugging me the last 2 seasons
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...whose been sitting around eating ribs and watching lost.
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Is that I will finally have heard the end of the Jack is Jacob, Locke is Jacob theories.
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Happy Lost Day, y'all. Just duckin' in to say 'howdy' as I wanna' be fresh as a daisy spoiler-wise for the craziness tonight.
And yes, Mr. O'Quinn's looking a liittle rough. But John Locke could still kick all of our asses at once. -
And I still have 7 hours til it comes on
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have to wait until Sunday...
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So for the thousandth time, everyone, in unison...
if you show a gun in act 1.... -
eats ribs with his Emmy as a fork, and dips his K.F.C. in....oh yeah...you guessed it...MEXICAN FUCKING COCA-COLA!
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Mark my words
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EYEBALLS TOO
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I checked. Couldn't resist. Will we actually make it to the episode this year without having it spoiled?
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The first hour is very slow and randomly sets up tons of different characters because it was supposed to be a pilot episode for a new "Twin Peaks" type show. The studio didn't pick it up, and then it was sloppily turned into a two-hour movie. Having watched it a few times, I think I get it, and I certainly love the hot lesbian action, but it does fail as a movie. Gia however features even more hot lesbian sex with Juliet, and is a good movie.
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..i dont think i saw you even once in last weeks talkback. I was waiting for you to douse us in your wisdom.
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Maybe the H Bomb goes off in the Hatch area, but is stuck in a 108 minute time loop of detonation, which would make the H Bomb become The Incident.
Rather than the previous setup of The Incident being the "exotic material" purging energy? -
a Rose-Bernard hybrid monster. I shit you not!
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harry knowles. he saw wolverine and is trapped in a hellish dimension of mediocrity that exists between time and space. locke is going to mercy kill him.
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It's what lies in the shadow of the statue.
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Will there be a Lost Talk back up for when people come in to work tomorrow with their minds blown and we can chat about it?
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Welliver is way past the third Deadwood cast member to show up on Lost. William Sanderson, Kim Dickens, Robin Weigert, Paula Malcolmson, and Zack Ward have all popped up, and I believe at least two of the writers are the same.
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that locke goes on to write a book about his experiences and it is turned into the movie. thinking he's dead, locke doesn't invite harry to screen the movie. harry's eyes open and he swears petty revenge upon locke by not reviewing his film. slam cut to black. LOST.
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Jacob did say "help me". I think Locke is putting him out of his misery. I also think that Jacob is a figure head. Since the leader has to take orders from Jacob, whoever controls Jacob is really in charge, and I think that person is one Richard Alpert. I wonder if it goes something like this. Richard was on the Black Rock when it crashed, but he wasn't the captain. Jacob was. Richard imprisoned Jacob and took control of the island.The only thing I don't get, is if the island wants Jacob dead, then why is the island keeping Richard young and healthy? And why is Jacob hardly there? Couldn't the island just let him die?And my money is on Sayid dying. I think his story is over. I think Locke, Kate, Sawyer, Jack and Hurley all have to live to the series finale. I think Jin and Sun are only still around to be reunited. I think Sayid and Juliet are both expendable at this point. I also think it will make for good drama if Juliet dies not knowing or believing if Sawyer loved her, and the awkward situation that would ensue with a now single Kate and Sawyer.
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Because a bunch of us we were posting up all kinds of theories about the connection between the Swan station and the H-Bomb after the episode Jughead. Whether it is a part of the incident or not after tonight, it's good to know that it wasn't a dropped plotline. 3 HOURS OF LOST TONIGHT (first a recap ep). Be sure to wear a condom before you lock eyes with your TV from across the room.
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Fuck you spoilers. Fuck you.
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thanks for re-posting my comment for whatever reason...
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It is a code for the chemical formula for Red Matter. Red Matter made the Cloverfield monster. Rumbaldi had the huge ball of it. And since a tiny drop of it created this singularity that sent Spock 130 years in the past, the huge ball of Red Matter going up at the end of Star Trek creates a singularity going back to 1977. That singularity creates the incident, and is also responsible for Elvis going into the future with aliens in 1977. Search your feelings Skywalker, you know it to be true.
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and then turns into Locke, and then Kate goes back in time to become Rose's(Jack's) mother. Whooosh. LOST.
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Keri Russell. Greg Gunberg shows up as zombie pilot, and kills her.
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say that young tom (GAY TOM!)is kate's old doctor/boyfriend-whome she kissed!!if this is true...it better be good.Cuz,frankly-i'm not a bit tom fan.He's a crappy character.
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The incident is an EMP as far as we know. EMPs are also side-effects of nukes. But I can't imagine them really explaining a nuke going off. And wouldn't that kill all the Others? I really am curious how they plan to resolve this nuke issue. I also assume by the end of the finale that the 1977 and 2007 crews are back together. My guess is the X-factor is Desmond coming back to the island.
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He leaves the light on in the hatch.
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Twitter? I don't think so. I could care less what Aston Kutcher is doing in the bathroom. And exactly how does it enhance my life if I read Oprah's twitter comment before she says it on the air?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhnJ2-u3WtY&feature=related
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the nuke goes off....but in 1407.thats the twist.the bomb blasts the black freighter out of the ocean and onto the island.A young Richard Alpert (along with captain Horatio Magellan Crunch!) are the first inhabitants of the island.
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... to own a "hemi". But Jettas are probably more their style.
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should we prepare for yet another round of "Who Will Kate Make Out With This Week?"
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I once gave a hummer to a hermy in a hemi. Or not.
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Cause then they couldnt do the Hurley and Miles spinoff show where they talk about time travel, talking to dead guys, and the Empire Strikes Back script...
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She only seems to do it as a distraction. I never really get the impression that she has a meaningful emotional connection with anyone.
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Rosencrantz and Gildersten are dead applied to Empire Strikes Back with Miles and Hurley as time traveling dead guys in a galaxy far, far away.
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May 13, 2009 1:41:13 PM CDT
Kate had a meaningful emotional connection with her dad
by idrinkyourmexicancoke
you might say it was a passionately burning emotional relationship.
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To go off around 9:58 CST? That would sooo blow.
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I want it so badly I can taste it...even Star Trek! But I'd be fine if Cloverfield, Alias, Lost and Fringe were all connected.
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(damn return button) is one year away. You know half will think its the greatest thing since cheese kurds while the other half will feel like they've just wasted 6 years of their lives.
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Is that the bomb did already go off within the existing timeline of the show in a manner that was shown to us previously, except we didn't realize it, such as the sky turning purple. The bomb goes off, and in the very instant that it begins to chip away at the island, it creates an "incident" type of uncontrolled release of the energy below the island. Said incident moves the remainder of the nuclear blast to another time and place.
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What if there's a force on the island that is powerful enough to negate the radiation of an h-bomb, while still causing the electromagnetic damage?
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I'm from London I'll get up in the morning and watch finale. Fuck Sky.
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Happy Happy Lost Lost!!!! Happy Happy Lost Lost!!!! lostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlostlost :):):):):)!!!!!! see you after the show, my fellow Losties! It's gonna be a fun ride!
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May 13, 2009 1:47:24 PM CDT
The statue was built so that people could find the island
by dapper swindler
It was later torn down by the Others for the opposite reason - so people wouldn't come to the island.
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what if the bomb is sent back in time?
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represents how OLD the island is.
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....and sleep for exactly 6 hours. Here we GO...OUCH!!! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
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They are all interconnected via Red Matter. Remember the red ball in Alias? It is also responsible for the Cloverfield monster showing up.
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...I totally think that too. The buildup will be huge and right as its about to explode the bomb will get sent back in time destroying a bunch of stuff mainly the statue.
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The 4-toed statue is Milo Rambaldi.
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Lost in HD is much better than Lost on a computer screen with shitty resolution and the volume turned up so loud as to drown out the humming of my processor. But anyway, enjoy the finale you lucky yank bastards.
Still think Hurley's gonna die. And whatever is in Ilana's carate will be something small. You watch. -
there are "ruins"...becuase the bomb "ruined" them.
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You wrote: "Jacob will turn out to be John Locke."
That would seem unlikely, given that the casting of a new actor for Jacob was widely publicized a couple of months ago. -
...that Smokie is like Hal 9000 in that jacob tried to shut him down at some point and out of self preservation he banished Jacob to some strange time space...well time not space...I mean space time....actually I have no idea.
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WHY the Island started skipping in the 1st place? Thats what I want to know.
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Say that Jacob was someone we'd never met before?
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That would explain what happened to them. Also, it would explain why there aren't more ruins. I always thought it was strange that they could build a statue so big but have so few ruins on the island.
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...because it was trying to lose some weight...ZINGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!
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your very cool,BUT they widely panned the idea that SMOKIE is a cloud of 'nanobots"...which i think si a cool idea
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I like your idea of Juliet dieing without knowing if Sawyer really loved her. But how about this...Kate is nearly killed and Sawyer saves her at the last possible second. Kate hugs Sawyer and tries to kiss him in thanks when Juliet comes around the corner and sees them. Then Juliet is shot and killed before anyone can explain. boom - LOST.
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No, they never said that. Not the same guy.
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And not Hurley.
This is the last season finale, after that there´s no more.
Tonight will be full of revelations and etc, i would be pissed off if theres more twists and what not. -
...but using the same motivation that HAL had when someone tried to "kill it"
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Most links I check for come in HD quality. I can't avoid the internet for three more days. Lost is the only show I have to see as soon as it's on. I need my fix.
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kudos for 2001 reference-my fave fucking film
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I really like that. Especially if Jack is somehow inadvertently responsible, causing a big cluster-fuck. There is a setup we've had this season with very little follow-up.There is a group that knows about the island. They got back to the island. And they are hostile. They are in 2007 and haven't been touched upon in several episodes. Who says they don't bring Sun, Ben, Locke, etc. back to 1977 to stop the H-bomb?
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Tom was MC Gainey's character, if I remember correctly. He was shot by Sawyer in the season three finale. But he later appeared in Michael's season four flashback, which was cool. I liked how they implied he was gay, through the body language he had with his male friend during his scene with Michael.
MC Gainey? Gay? Who would've thought? He's the type of guy you imagine as the guest star of the "Deliverance" remake, which we must now all pray never happens.
"Okay, Mr. Gainey, I'll squeal! Just let me keep my pants up!" -
And does it smell like carrots?
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Cuz I want any fluff buildup that has to be done out of the way ASAP, stat! Seriously, leave the fluff to the first hour, then blow us the fuck away in the second hour. WE NEED ANSWERS, PEOPLE. Not everything, but something amazing had best be explained tonight. As much as I want an answer a week next season, I still want some major payoff tonight. Two hours of amazing Lost. Please. And thank you.
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Locke does not become Jacob. He becomes Mr. Clean.In all seriousness, Locke hasn't been seen on screen at the same time as smokezilla, and suddenly Locke just "knows" things. Is he smokezilla now, or is that a red herring?
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A bad case of dharma food poisoning.
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The TOM they are referring to is Kate's childhood boyfriend, not the bearded guy. two different characters.
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she has to be back tonight.
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Other than, to cause "The Incident"...I feel like that would be a real cop-out even though I think that's what is going to happen
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I agree and hope they show more of the Ajira - 'What lies in the shadow of the statue?' people.But since the producers have said no more time travel after tonight I'm thinking everyone is going to go to 2007 (or maybe 2009) - unless of course they die.I think someone else mentioned this in last weeks talkback... that when Richard said he saw the 1977 losties die he might have just thought they died. In that when the incident occurs they all disappear and Richard assumes they've all been killed - vaporized.
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What are they, humans trying to jeopardize the mission?
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When did I repost your comment? *MINDS*
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is why did is why did sky one and rte 2 have to put lost on the same day at the same time.sunday. 24 season 7 is monday night at 12pm. ridiculous.
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I've thought about this, and while it doesn't quite sit right, a possible explanation is that since being returned to the island as a corpse, the smoke monster has been manifesting itself as John Locke. Running with this even further, we can maybe say that Christian Shepherd is smokie, Libby may have been smokie, and could even be Claire. We know the smoke monster can do things like this, because we've seen it be Eko's brother, and Ben's daughter Alex. But this all still seems a little too... easy? Maybe I just want Locke to be really resurrected from the dead.
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...Aaron until proven wrong. sorry to be the English major dork but really how cool (with admitted flaws) when viewing the series as a whole
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Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve. WHOA! Just blew my own mind...
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he put on Horace's jumper.
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May 13, 2009 2:21:09 PM CDT
Speaking of food... what is your Lost season finale meal?
by turketron_2
Fellow Lost finale viewers, what will be your Lost Meal tonight?
Mine will be quite sad... a simple Tony's Supreme pizza, dressed up with crushed red pepper and Tabasco sauce, and a Cheerwine soda to wash it down... and maybe a few beers. -
There will be ample shots of her bending over in that loose fitting "Red" shirt. If she "dies" tonight, I will be sad. But then again, there is always Gia. *Spoiler guess* Ben stabs Locke.
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have we SEEN a Shepard descendant in the cabin yet (other than the obvious visitors). Eye color be damned, I'm gonna push this one...
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little ceasars' 5 dollar large pepperoni... and crazy bread, FTW.
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I thought Dalrton said on the podcast that we say Smokie several times in season 1 without knowing we were looking at season 1. I also though the Eko death scene, and this season's scene with Ben made it perfectly clear that Smokie likes to appear as dead people, specifically dead relatives. I think Christian Shephard is certainly Smokie. I'm not sure about Locke.
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And aside from learning that apparently some of the 815 survivors joined up with it in the 70's, did we learn ANYTHING of importance about the Dharma Initiative and what they were up to that we didn't know before this season?
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I haven't had Chinese in a while, and I am really in the mood for some good beef lo mein.
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May 13, 2009 2:25:24 PM CDT
OMG, this is just a tv show, why do I feel like it is Christmas
by stankratz
The end is near, in a matter of hours we'll all know the outcome of season 5 and will be in off-season limbo. I've got the habitual 'Lost Reefer' pre-rolled and stashed just incase the nightmare scenario of me running out of the good stuff before the episode airs comes to pass. Personally I don't think we'll be even nearly content with the content of tonight's finale, as there is still a full season left for the writers to reveal their hand and you know that there's gonna be at least, without exaggeration, 15 brazillion new mysteries posed tonight, but I am counting on seeing both the elusive Jacob McGhosty and Anubis O' Statuesy in the episodes (I don't read spoilers by the way). As I am the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean it will be at least 3.30am my time before I see it, so I will be avoiding this place like a weekend in a mexican abbatoir until then. Enjoy and see you on the otherside!
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May 13, 2009 2:27:14 PM CDT
..and I am a 6 year old? (full title of my previous subject)
by stankratz
Holy shite i'm posting on an AICN talkbalk, Goddamn you Lost!
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We learned that most of them are clueless stiffs working jobs, but Chang is aware of some massive power source that he is trying tap into, and that for some reason they think the Swan is so valuable, they'd risk violating the treaty for it.
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still think Ben had the fear of (god, smokey, whatever)put in him by his daughter, unless I'm wrong, Ben's gonna be a good boy until a very, very pivotal moment (probably not season 5(
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Locke has been acting odd since he returned. he's some reasons he may fall into one of these categories...Dead: Because Bean said Dead is Dead. He was in a funeral home with no family members, so they probably embalmed him.Alive: The island did heal John three times before - 1) after crashing on the island 2) After Locke allowed Boone to die he regained the use of his legs and 3) After Ben shot him in the chest and left him for dead in the Dharma pit. If the island resurrected him it may have given him additional knowledge as well.Something Else: Locke could be Smokey or some another island incarnation. This kinda makes sense since he seems to know much more about everything now.Thoughts?
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i'm guessing ben wanted locke to make him the one that kills jacob for some reason, and that locke just got conned AGAIN.
also, you can't change the past, even though faraday said you theoretically could. this is proved by faraday's death at his mother's hands, which was always what would've happened. that means the detonation of the nuke was the "incident" all along, not an accidental tapping of the energy pocket blahdeeblah.
or i don't know, some shit like that. -
...what the "mission" is who knows. Maybe Smokie felt that Jacob no longer had the islands best interest in mind so he trapped him. Obviously he felt other people, most recently locke, clearly has the islands best interests in mind.
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The end of the universe tonight.
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YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
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May 13, 2009 2:40:08 PM CDT
Because Christmas has been De-Mystified. LOST hasn't
by darthmrbelvedere
Amazing that we have this, if you ask me
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You guys all need to watch season 1 during LOST's hiatus to catch up. They knocked it out of the park
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Here's hoping Sayid snaps his neck like a twig...
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Chicken tacos al pastor washed down with a Modello especial.
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I am gonna get rocked tonight at the meetup. So, dunno if I will be on here till the weekend pals!
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Pass the Dharma ranch...
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I watched the first five episodes, which were decent, but a bit predictable. I also really didn't care for Anna Torv, or any of the characters. But the concept of primetime sci-fi in the vein of X-Files really appeals to me. I'm going to give that show another shot.
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yeah, you like that? 'the lost supper'? i made it up just now.
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Smokey and Sawyer go on a cross country race.
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Now Phil, on the other hand, is a dead man. Goddamn you Jimmy Barret. You woman hitting douchebag.
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He has to shoot himself in the head in the hatch in a few years.
Having met Radzinsky I'm starting to wonder 2 things
1.) What was he doing living in the hatch with Kelvin? Why was he drawing a map on the door when he was such an important part of Dharma
2.) How did Kevlin not kill Radzinsky himself, because the guy is such an insufferable douchebag? -
...I'm going to see Trek again tonight. Guess I'll have to watch LOST tomorrow night.
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They ought to kill off Ilana and Bram the way they did Artz. "Sorry guys, you take yourselves way too seriously and the Island only cares about Skate. What was that about a statue?"
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Jack walks through a door into a blinding white light, laid out before him is a desert. The apothesis of ALL deserts. After adjusting the worn sandalwood grips of his 'big guns'...he heads off on the trail of the man in black.
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...i mean they never actually showed us that he killed himself. That might have been a bowl of spaghetti O's that Kelvin was eating and he got scared and threw them up into the air.
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It was fucking awesome, people. I'm deeming this "JJ Day" for me. I watched Fringe at midnight, watched Star Trek this afternoon, and season finale tonight! Best. Day. Ever. Even though I know JJ isn't so invovled in LOST anymore, its still his baby, so its still JJ Day. Happy Season Finale Day Everyone!
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Eyeliner man said himself...
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to detonate the bomb.
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Nice Dark Tower reference!I hope Lost doesn't return to the beginning in the series finale.
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And Phil...they're the douchiest characters in the history of the show and definitely up there with other notable TV douchebags. I actually hate that actor who plays Phil, he always plays a sniveling, douchy, red tape-loving bureaucrat.
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It's always been my theory that Kelvin is probably the one that painted the ceiling with Radzinky's brain matter, he just never told the story that way.
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Cause that never happened before, right???
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A BOWL(yeah...you know it baby)...and a nice iced coffee.and KUDOS to whomeversaid 'tacos al pastor", cuz that makes you a cool motherfucker!
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It would appeal more to non star trek fans I think...
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...please let it be what I hope it is...green and fluffy with the sweet smell of THC...
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was pretty kickass-very very fun movie.Everything was done very weel, from the badguy's huiances ( he wasnt lame o over the top, and was very polite-which i loved), the casting-(this is WHERE they shine-the casting was dead-on)..and th story just keeps moving, with hardly a break or a boring patch.JJ outdid himself
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He's second in command douchebag...
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Kate won't die because they still have the whole issue of why babies can't be born on the island to deal with.Since we know shes knocked up with Jacks baby.
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with him magni-glass frying ants and pulling the wings off flies?Question. I never watched Alias. Was JJ as obsessed with time-travel-parallel-worlds in that show as he is with Lost, Fringe and Star Trek??
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you got it friendo!and I MEANT bowl(s)-as in plural,as in multiple bowlage going down!
and sorry for my last post-HOBOCODE would have a heart attack is he was here! -
Cap"n Jack who would be the man in black?Ben or Locke?
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BRAVO TO YOU SIR!
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I don't think anyone on this show has forgotten the face of their father... and all the best cowboys have daddy issues.
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but the story was dumb.
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I watched the first 3 and half seasons. I don't believe they did time travel or parallel worlds, but there was definitely a supernatural vibe to what was otherwise Mission Impossible. From what I understand, ABC fought him on the supernatural angles the whole way.
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I'd rather the show end starting over then have the hand of god come in and set jughead off.
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we've never seen radzinsky inside the hatch with Kelvin. so supposed a different person had taken radzinsky's name and was punching the numbers etc until they blew their head off year's later. crazy enough that that person was Hurley? Might explain his fear of the numbers etc etc...that is, if he doesn't die tonight...
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...is clearly Vincent.
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But I agree that Star Trek probably appealed more to non-fans, because I have never been into Star Trek, and I really loved it. Also, I just want to throw in that I fucking hate Transformers for how unbelievably stupid it is, and as its written by the same guys, I feel impressed that the story was, for the most part, very smart and very, very on-top of itself and what it was doing. It had the perfect tone, and the casting...my goodness, those people are fun. Uhura..my god. And Chris Pine was excellent. I thought the story was an incredibly fun sci-fi narrative, that allowed them to break rules and start a new franchise without pissing off super-nerd fanboys in probably the smartest way I've ever seen done. Nero was just an excellent plot device, no argument. I just think its THE perfect example of a what great summer flick should be, as compared to what I consider the worst example, Transformers. Its actually ironic theyre written by the same duo.
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May 13, 2009 3:12:26 PM CDT
I heard something cool. Alpert and Jacob are brothers
by lockesbrokenleg
what do you think?
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He´s linked to the island, the island will not let that happen.
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His behavior in the preview for tonight looked pretty wild, to say the least. Trying not to spoil anything but those who have seen it know what I'm talking about. Could have been taken out of context, like they always do with the trailers though.
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I think they both come from the Black Rock. I think when Alpert starts to age eventually, he will become the most interesting man alive. Stay thirsty my friends.
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Just wanted to stop by and say I am more excited to watch Lost than to get married on Saturday. Maybe, not sure actually. In the event that my stupid commitment tonight doesn't allow me to get home by 8, can anyone direct me to umm, somewhere other than ABC.com to watch it?
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I don't know about that. I would just say what would possibly lead to that assumption? There definitely having been hintings or anything. I really, truly feel like I have no idea what is going to happen tonight. We still don't know if they are breaking the timeline or creating it at this point, and I think tonight will help decide that. The big question is can they change things? Since we still don't really know the answer one or another yet, there is really no way to know what the fuck is going to happen. I love it.
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I like your theory only because I want to see someone off Radzinsky NOW! Don't want Hurley to die though.
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adults stopped watching after it stopped making any sense and not in a good way, more like "we dont know what we are doing" way.
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would be even better if he could create one where freckles bauer, juliet, kate and anna torv all had their clothes ripped off and taken by the Cloverfield monster.
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I couldnt agree more...Never been TOO into star trek but really dug the movie...(not to say im completely opposed to any trek pre-abrams)...and as for the Transformers, I didnt like the first movie, but I have to admit that the trailer that played before Trek for Transformers 2 looked pretty good. Popcorn Good, but watchable.
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I was a little disappointed that when he was writing Empire Strikes Back, he didn't know what a bowcaster was.
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May 13, 2009 3:20:12 PM CDT
somehow, Charlotte made it onto Maxim's "Hot 100 Girls" list
by turketron_2
I wouldn't call her unattractive, but SERIOUSLY? That's a mystery bigger than anything on LOST.
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And this is something I learned from the radio...
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Lost is the most complex and intelligent show I've ever seen on TV. You're either an idiot or a troll. Either way, your opinions are irrelevant.
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Hurley didnt know how to spell it, not what it was!
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are you depressed? u must be coz u are watchin lost like a loser. stargate is for the Y generation, the generation that understands the world better.
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Really? Her? wow...I always thought she looked like the little boy that Aragorn teaches how to use a sword in Helms Deep in The Two Towers.
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so I'll be checking back in later.
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Was expecting at least ONE inviso-text spoiler!
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Jacob is Nanny.
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I did a quick google pic search to see if I had missed some great pics of her and no there was nothing but a couple of airbrushed pics that looked even remotely worthy of that listing
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The submarine is sinking, and they need to get back to the island. Juliet says "if only I had a motor-boat!"Sawyer says, "well, if you insist!"
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I finally got around to watching Rescue Dawn last week (which has two Losties in it) and Faraday was insanely skinny in that movie. He was Machinist skinny. He made Kate Moss look fat.
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I can't believe it either and I'll have to check it out for myself when I get home (supposedly it's on their webpage). Apparently Charlotte is there, but none of the other Lost girls. Not sure what her rank is. Those lists are bogus anyway, but still... the fact that Charlotte is on there at all puzzles me, even though I find her somewhat attractive (hell, it's hard for me to find just about any girl who isn't morbidly obese or extremely old not somewhat attractive).
Whatever. -
That we finally get the shower scene with Kate and her speeders, Juliet with her sloppers and Sun with her tweeners all sudsy????
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...stuck around and saw that it did make sense, and that haters like you weren't worthy of the show in the first place.
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That would make tonight's episode the finale, of the *penultimate* season.
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So great job with that swipe about generation gaps.
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http://www.visualhollywood.com/movies/rescue-dawn/pics/Slide8.JPG
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A message from the future, check this out:
http://www.chumpscore.com/blog/2009/5/13/bucket-brigade-lost-finale-tonight.html -
Just go to www.chumpscore.com
The fate of Darlton is revealed... -
Tru, Im 21 and I think lost is about the best thing on T.V. Stargate can gargle my balls.
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*True
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First, Jack will be successful in detonating a bomb that changes the timeline, promising that Vulcan will in fact explode, killing all 6 billion inhabitants.
Second, has anyone ever noticed that the word SLOT is an anagram for LOST? Also, using basic numerology, the letter L = 12, the letter O = 15, S = 19, and T = 20. And everyone knows was 12 + 15 + 19 + 20 is, right> Yup, 66. 6 + 6 = 12, and 1 + 2 = 3. That means that we should all just shut up and stop masturbating at work to Lost TB postings. -
shouldnt you be like having sex with Harry?
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Or MILF Eloise Hawking to be found. The pic of Rebecca that Maxim has on their webpage for her is kind of hot though... But how can you overlook Juliette!? Bad Maxim... BAD!
Oh yeah, don't feed the dickholdertroll... -
alex told ben to do two things... A) stop fucking killing locke... and B) do everything locke says...
now, if locke orders ben to kill jacob, and jacob is actually locke, then the paradox that ensues will rip a hole in the time-space continuum that sucks everybody in the present back to 1977, just in time for jack to blow every fucking person on the island into at least 700 billion trillion pieces, except for ben, who uses the frozen donkey wheel to teleport himself into outer space just in the nick of time.
however, the unforeseen result of the explosion is that the entire planet collapses in on itself, creating a black hole into which the u.s.s. enterprise is sucked, and when they come out of it 129 years in the future, ben manages to get himself aboard, kills kirk, takes control of the ship, and goes on an interstellar hunt for widmore, who by that time owns and controls approximately 45% of space and matter in the universe. i haven't breathed in the last twelve minutes. -
I love LOST... can't wait for the finale. Whats with all the Mexican Coke references?
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...would make an awesome jesus
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The Ajira people shooting at Sawyer and everybody while they are in the canoe?
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Just watch and see. I promise you.
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nah, thats Thursdays.
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when Danielle's crew shipwrecked on the island, they were listening to the numbers being continually broadcast over the radio, and they were in Hurley's voice (check it yourself if you don't believe me). Also, when Ajira 316 set down there, the numbers were coming over the plane's radio. Considering that transmission was supposed to have been turned off by Rouseau, it appears that Jack's plan may actualy work in some way, and that Lapidus, Sun, et.al. are already living in an altered version of 2007, though certainly not the happy reset world that Jack's hoping for.
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dioxholster is a giant tool.
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Emerson said that, not me...
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Did they ever explain this???
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Sayid's girl?
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Isn't that the dude's name that spoiled the last two finales on Darkufo's site? Was he a casualty of the economy and got fired or did he get caught last year and get fired?
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Quick bookmark it before some asshole changes the pull quote.
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fuck spoilers - see you after the show, Lost talkback...
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Yes. You are correct sir.
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So what is everyone snacking on tonight?
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BBQ wings with Richardsons Ultimate BBQ sauce. It's da'shit yo!
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She's the baddest bitch on Lost right now...
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Everybody's ready?
First round of mexican coke is on me. -
Who would you do?
Me - Naomi (chick who got recruited the Freighters). -
Did we saw him between 1954 and 1977?
I can't recall, we just saw Richie take young Ben in the temple and assume smokie healed him, but didn't see him. So I wonder if it has been created by the incident. -
May 13, 2009 4:16:28 PM CDT
Hurley is expendable, but he's the only comedic relief
by mel_gibsons_nazi_dad
I did read an iteresting theory that said Locke wearing Christian's shoes and Hurley carrying Charlie's guitar case are for the same reason. Read into to that what you want.
I vote everyone dies and we see the time loop play itself again just all in one season. This time the right changes are made to make whatever needs to happen, happen. -
Last year was tough.I wonder when Dexter season 3 comes out?
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I feel so LOST.
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Tom shared some with Arturo, who shared some with Caesar, who shared some with us.
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Have you guys ever tried Mexican Coca Cola? That shit is delicious. Mexican Sprite is better too!
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I know Lindelof worked on it, but did Cuse work on it as well?And what ever happened to edshrinker?
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Walter Bishop and William Bell manipulating Red Matter on the Lost island as part of the Dharma Initiative alternate reality. They created the Cloverfield monster and sent it into yet another alternate reality to cause chaos as the "Observer" observed from the Starship Enterprise while having a mai tai with Scotty's little-green-gear-head-alien-midget with the signature Rambaldi tattoo on his hand...per wikipedia....
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...or a lack of Mexican coke I should have said.
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To try and recreate Flight 815 as much as possible. Charlie's guitar case, a prisoner in hand cuffs, a stiff in a coffin wearing the shoes, etc. I wonder if Kate was pregnant to mirror Claire.
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I've never seen it in Nebraska and as a coke lover, I really want to find me some.
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If anyone goes back in time to become Adam and Eve, it is Bernard and Rose.
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At least they make damn fine coffee.
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Dude... I live in South Texas... have family in Mexico. I highly recommend it. It'll ruin regular Coca Cola for you.
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is really Adam & Eve. LOST Island = Garden of Eden.
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Christopher Lloyd shows up and tells Jack he has to go back. Jack says, "Doc, we can't go back to the past." Lloyd responds, "NO, Jack, we have to go back to the future. It's your kids. They never know each other and make 'Two Girls and a Cup in 3-D'!"
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After reading the many post involving tonight's dining, I, too, became convinced to partake in said menu. Purple Kush for the Island's Purple Sky, and a little hybrid of Afghan (for Sayid - yeah I know he's not not Afghani, but roll with it) and Maui Wowie (Obvious reasons). Let the appetizers begin!!!
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Doesn't mean he doesn't already exist though. Richard says to the Dharma people that the fence can keep other things out, but not him (was he referring to smokie as the "other things"?). Also, there's the inscription in the underground ruins that shows what looks like Smokie facing off against Anubis... but for all we know that could have been drawn at practically any time.
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But where can we find 1.21 giggawatts?
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For what? For the Mexican Coke. That's what.
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But it's actually 2girls1cup in Smellovision.
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...can i come "watch" lost with you?
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Lost ends with the Black Pearl landing on the shore. ABC/Disney rakes in the millions in the ensuing movie franchise.
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They smell like Juliet.
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...the door's unlocked. Just stop at the store and get some DORITOS!!! And some more papers -- I'm almost out.
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THAT SHIT IS DELICIOUS.... Fuck, I think I'm gonna stop at the nearby Latin grocery store and pick up a 20oz to go with my Lost meal. IT'S A CELEBRATION, BITCHES!
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Don't hate on me.
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all that money on a sonic fence probably means Smokie does exist before the incident. And there's also Ben seeing his mom in the jungle, although actually this happened afterward the Incident I guess. I don't know. Has anyone watched the Ben episode from S3 since this whole Dharma stuff began? Does it match up? Because I can't imagine they had all this story about the losties going back to the 70s worked out during season 3.
Didn't Horace have a different wife in that episode? -
Star Trek, imho, was not smart, at all. It was exciting and I was never bored but I didn't once consider it smart. There were far too many holes and silly inconsistencies.
Maybe it is a fan, non-fan thing. I love Trek, otherwise. -
Kate can die... Hurley should stay.
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Can someone explain this Mexiican Coke injoke to me?
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the thought had occured to me. I'll never again ask the question, "How can two girls together be anything but sexy?"
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...and take Juliette and Kate BOTH. It IS the 70's! And they BOTH have different attributes that make them the perfect compliment for each other. If Seth Brundle were on the Island, he could combine them into one for Sawyer.
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I'm pretty sure it has something to do with drugs, or a drink (that used to be a drug).
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About the fact that time travel is supposed to come to an end this season and we still have more to explore with the DHARMA Initiative? I mean, what's the deal with nice guy Horace? What about Dr. Chang? What were there goals?
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Mexican Coke usies real sugar. I haven't tried it, but it is said to taste a LOT better. This is why Pepsi just released their "Throwback" Pepsi with real sugar.
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...real sugar instead of here in america where it's made with artificial sweetners. As far as a joke it just took off after idrinkyourmilkshake brought it up i think and everyone just kept talking about it and weird little places to find it.
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I am going to eat Sun.
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Are you saying US Coke doesn't have sugar in it? In the UK it still has a shit load of sugar piled into every can. Small consolation over the next 4 days but at least I get to drink real coke whilst waiting for Sunday.
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Sweetened with corn syrup these days, rather than good old fashioned granulated sugar as it was in days of old...
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If you seat Sun, you'll be hungry again an hour later. What then? Jin? Miles? Dr. Chang? WHERE DOES IT END, MAN!!??!! WHERE DOES IT END!
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If you EAT...love my own typos!!!
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you almost here?? I'm getting hungry, man!!
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"PREVIOUSLY, ON LOST..."
We shall hear them in 3 hours my friends! -
..i'd be on my way with loads of Doritos...
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The one in the weird blue can with the trippy commercial? Coke > Pepsi though, so maybe it brings it up to the level of Coke... or at least RC ;)
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Only some sort of electromagnetic incident could generate that sort of power, and you never know when one of those are going to happen!We do now, Doc! We do now!
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no thank you, turkish.
i'm sweet enough. -
It wouldn't be a LOST talkback without our boy Walt.
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We saw Young Kirk and Young Spock...now it's happening on Lost! What's up with these guys and liking to show people as kids?
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May 13, 2009 5:16:52 PM CDT
If I saw the cave drawings on the Ben episode correclty....
by pissed off and bitter
It looks as though a god that looks somehow Egyptian sent the Smoke creature or Cerberus (that's what I heard talkbackers call it) to the island as some kind of guardian. I think that fits with the fact that the statue Sawyer, Locke, and the others saw in the distance while Locke was trying to get into the well to stop them from travelling time, looked like the cave drawing.
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May 13, 2009 5:20:36 PM CDT
Waaaaaaaaaaaaallllllttttt should be like 8 foot tall by now...
by mrhazard
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I guess this TB is our new home for the next 8 months. Just stopping by to say hello! I don't want to chance getting spoiled yet ... though Doc Jensen posted a really good theory earlier today on EW.com that I think makes a lot of sense, and just thinking about it I feel spoiled already! See ya'll at 11pm!
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mark my words!
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So says every Lost fan theory
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Yesterday was the actors 17th birthday
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I haven't heard from you since the end of the "We Have To Go Back!" Talkback.
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I just realized that Bernard was Mr. Gorpley from Perfect Strangers. How did I not see that all these years?!
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Because Christian came along and usurped him and is keeping him at bay while he fulfills his own secret agenda.
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on Angel. Lorne is Jacob!
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trapped in between time. He can see the past AND THE FUTURE! And that's Jacob.
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i tink jughead will go off the radiation being a reason that babies cant be born on the island anymore makes alot of sense in my head. and the hurley is gonna program the swan computer and radsinsky is gonna lock himself in the swan at some point b4 the bomb goes off.
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King to queens pawn!
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In his pants.
And Kate has to sit on it. -
This... is... going... to... be... awesome...
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...but didn't fucking swine flu start there? fuck that.
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Cerberus is the name given for the smoke monster on Radzinsky's map in the hatch.
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got me arrested one night in new york. i don't know about the use of real sugar but at 45 dollars a gram that shit wasn't so hot. i'd take peruvian coke any day. also, sawyers got aids.
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He said Ben never SAW Jacob, he's definitely talked to him.
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May 13, 2009 6:16:43 PM CDT
More throw shit to the wall and see what sticks seasonal plottin
by evilwizardglick
Too damned bad LOST managed to implode plot wise since season one. It's like each season a group of monkeys are brought in to spin the plot wheel, followed by teen writers who have attempt to patch together a coherent season.
Sure it still fun to watch, mainly because LOST has become a dumbassed caricature of what it once was.
I hope to hell they end it soon, next season right, because having no plothas become meaningless.
I remember hanging on every single second of season one. Watching the show in slow motion ( Heroe's too) just in the vain hopes of picking out a new clue. Then season two rolled around and the crackhead writers had no focus. Sure they tossed out some new characters. They all FUCKING DIED!
Same with the next seasons.
Now it is cover your ass storytelling in the vague hope someone can write and ending before the money dries up. -
Take a trip down memory lane to seasons past. Let us recall that there was a vaccine which allowed Aaron to be born. The same vaccine Desmond had to inject once a day. Dead French woman suggested that her people went into the jungle and came back differently. OVER TIME. Like a DISEASE. A DISEASE the vaccine would stop. I even remember vague hunts to the same explanation.
NO FUCKING RADIATION! -
Never been explained, just like all the other loose threads. Plane from Nigeria for example.
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Strangely I do not remember this...
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obviously you didnt pay attention enough because they showed that the Disease was more than likely just a lie when Desmond saw that Kelvin was going out of the hatch with a whole in his hazmat suit.
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It wasn't vaccine
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obviously you didnt pay attention enough because they showed that the Disease was more than likely just a lie when Desmond saw that Kelvin was going out of the hatch with a whole in his hazmat suit.
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obviously you didnt pay attention enough because they showed that the Disease was more than likely just a lie when Desmond saw that Kelvin was going out of the hatch with a whole in his hazmat suit.
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obviously you didnt pay attention enough because they showed that the Disease was more than likely just a lie when Desmond saw that Kelvin was going out of the hatch with a whole in his hazmat suit.
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plane was explained in season two.Eko's brother was flying drugs in statues.Oh and g4 is having a interview right now by the main dudes of lost!
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Dropped in to say what's up but i gotta get outta here fast. I've managed to avoid spoilers the last two weeks but only by avoiding talkbacks too. I'll drop back in to find a comfortable chair for the next eight months after the show. Til then, I will bathe in the unbridled happy wet jolly goodness that is a solid three hours of Lost. Just think, in a few days Dick Holder will be gone for eight months.
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May 13, 2009 6:43:06 PM CDT
Yes, Ben has definitly talked to Jacob, the question is...
by gordon bombay
whether or not he has actually seen him.
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Yeah, I'm back up in this Mama Jama. Wow LOST is better than ever. Hope you've been working on those cartoons? I saw an image from the LOST game, I think it was a conceptual drawing of the Sawn hatch. It was gigantic and awesome! Like out of Star Wars or somehting. You should incorporate that into your Toons
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The Others most likely played dress up to keep the 815ers (and who knows who else) under the impression that they were uncivilized and didn't live in Pleasantville. Why would they want the survivors to get any ideas? As for the Nigerian plane, what more do you want explained? There are certain issues that you can take Lost to task for (i.e. Libby) but everything you mentioned is bullshit. If you haven't been watching, shut the fuck up, and if you are watching, why don't you just stop since you obviously hate it so goddamned much.
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We all know Mexico is only good for Tequila and discount Hookers with tattoo's and C-section scars
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In an alternate universe I could be first
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...is anyone else having this problem!!?
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LOST needs BONER...
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FRINGE is off the chizz-AIN! Seriously, I was cool with it, but nuthin special after the first few episodes. But by the end of this season I thought it was the second best show on TV right now, after boom-LOST of course.
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I CAN'T WAIT. The world better not end or something before then. Seriously, the apocalypse needs to wait until at least June 2010. I need to see how boom-LOST plays out.
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The island, once not far off the coast of Africa, had been subjugated by the Egyptian types who learned the secrets of its power. The island appeared under the Black Rock after the Egyptians moved it. Richard, captain of the Black Rock, lead his crew against the Egyptians and wiped them out. The island rewarded Richard with eternal life and the ability take on many forms, turning him into Smokie.
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I think he was a sleazy DJ? Damn, I loved that show when i was a kid. Whatever happened to Herb Tarlick?
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That is all.
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"KRAP ... we play the most crap on your radio dial!"
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I think they had to start it as a boring procedural to snare the "Get-er-Done" audience. But as we progress, it'll be more Jules Verne
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They arent going to go the Alternate Reality are they, Season 4, had them going back, Losties, seperated by location, Season 5 by time, Season 6 by dimension ???
Hopefully not a)its being covered in Fringe and b)think they want to simplify it after this season. -
Is the same as the island healing Locke and Rose.
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He knows the island can provide eternal life
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So did Widmore while on the island. Who else?
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There was a merchant in Baghdad who sent his servant to market to buy provisions and in a little while the servant came back, white and trembling, and said, “Master, just now when I was in the market-place I was jostled by a woman in the crowd and when I turned I saw it was really Death that jostled me. She looked at me and made a threatening gesture; now, lend me your horse, and I will ride away from this city and avoid my fate. I will go to Samarra and there Death will not find me.” The merchant lent him his horse, and the servant mounted it, and he dug his spurs in its flanks and as fast as the horse could gallop he went. Then the merchant went down to the marketplace and he saw Death standing in the crowd and he came to Death and said, “Why did you make a threatening gesture to my servant when you saw him this morning?” “That was not a threatening gesture,” Death said, “it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra."
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The island accelerated the descendents of Vincent to be human (sorry Red Dwarf). Don't be suprised if Jacob likes catching frisbees and sniffing butts.
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The island hasn't healed every injury. It picks people to heal. It is the same power that stops Richard from aging.
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Ben served the island, or so it appears, for many years. The island would have hooked him up with the no-aging deal if he was the leader and main protector of the island. People that have been healed still age. Richard is different. He's Smokie.
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.. then the island should have de-aged him back to his prime. Why keep him old?
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Who says Ben served the island? Supposedly the will of the island was for Alex to die and Ben disobeyed. And even if you don't believe Widmore, Smokey sure seemed pissed at Ben for disobeying the will of the island. I don't think aging is part of the package for everyone. I think Alpert is so closely tied to the island that it affects him more than others.
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It is actually made of magic (sentient) smoke, which was thought up by the writers during a late night brainstorming session involving a bong.Writer #1--"Dude, I got it. Smoking lets us think up weird ideas, right? So, what if there was smoke that thought up its own ideas. Huh!Writer #2--"You just blew my mind. Lets do it."Writer #3--"What?"
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So Lost
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Hell yes. SO excited. :P
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I see your point. Perhaps Ben's gift was having no sickness, which is why he was shocked when Juliet diagnosed him with the tumor. He posibbly his time was almost up as leader, that might've been the sign.
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Where?
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isn't this the series finale? I thought they had decided to end it, and there were a bunch of interviews and stuff.. did they decide to keep milking it? that sounds exciting.
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1) Sun's horribly delivered comment about Jacob from last week.
2) Daniel's astoundingly long death speech, given with his incredibly full last breath.
Just 3 minutes left! -
Line
breaks
in
my
comments
Also, did they ever explain what made Change finally believe that Daniel was from the future? -
...'twitchy' and 'your mother is an other'?
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I meant Chang. Chang I can believe in.
I'll shut for at least the next hour now. -
just jizzed my pants
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...of the show, wow!
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Japanese for see you on Sunday TB, after I get a chance to watch the show, and do my best to avoid reading...hell anything on the internet.
To everyone who is watching it today, have a fantastic couple of hours, and have some beers and mexican coke for me. -
Chang - yes, he can!
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did not see that coming
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Awesome beginning. This show just got even bigger.
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See above
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It really is the season finale.
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Esau? I though he would be hairier.
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Whoa
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Can someone quickly sum up the opening scene? I missed everything but Jacob's last line
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JACOB LIES IN THE SHADOW OF THE STATUE
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Nice.
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and will this be the end of Jacob?
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...in EVERY Kate flashback?
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May 13, 2009 8:07:26 PM CDT
That opening already cements this as BEST SEASON FINALE EVER!!!
by hollywoodhellraiser
Nuff fucking said!!!
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this is going to be a wild ride tonight
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Whoa, and, um, whoa.
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just...wow
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Kate and Jacob meeting, can I say wow a few more times, lol!
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yikes.
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Alpert is the guy that was with Jacob in the beginning. don't ask me how he looks different, but...
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in a passive-aggressive sense.
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I just thought some of y'all might want to know ;)
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yep, I second (or third by now)....bomb in the crate.
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Guess not.
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Can't get mouthwash on a plane but can get a nuke? Actually that's probably about right.
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you die, Jacob brings you back...you get the urge to slaughter all non-essential (read non-Others) peeps on the island.
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jacob got rid of the dude in black, replaced him with richard.
i have no idea what im talking about. damn smoke monster -
...take care of the other passengers - hmmmm. I bet you Ben ends up killing Locke for good.
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May 13, 2009 8:19:16 PM CDT
I bet Jacob runs into everyone at some point in their lives
by memento108
And we see all of them in flashbacks tonight.
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...Aaron? Why would he care about these random people?
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They dont have the balls to let Jack blow himself up or to let little Ben die.
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pleeeeeeeease
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Holy shiiiii....you might be on to somethin'.
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dancetothebeatofthelivingdead just inadvertently revealed the name of JJ Abrams secret crossover project. UNBRIDLED HAPPY WET JOLLY GOODNESS was recently greenlit by Showtime to replace THE L WORD. It features actresses from all of JJ's projects in hot girl on girl action as requested by AICN talkbackers.Keri Russell & Evangeline Lilly & Jennifer Garner & Yunjin Kim & Zoe Saldana & Elizabeth Mitchell & Anna Torv & Michelle Rodriguez & Emilie de Ravin & Lizzy Caplan & Rebecca Mader & Cynthia Watros have all signed up for JJ's "tasteful" erotic anthology to be filmed during the summer hiatus.
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Kinda makes up for the elusive Richard episode
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My stupid DVR isn't recording and I missed the first 10 mins! All I saw was a drill and then Thirty Years Later...so fucking pissed. Please fill me in!
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This show is definitely hitting each of the pre-commercial beats HARD!
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It really doesn't take off until about the 7th episode in.. then the 10th episode.. total 180 degree turn into awesomenees.. by the time the finale hits--wow! Give it another shot at least past episode 10 and see if you're still curious dude. I promise you'll be rewarded
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Nero's drilling to the center of the island and is gonna use the red matter to blow the thing up.
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I think it's lame to keep introducing new characters.
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rat bastard.
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Cause a singularity that implodes the island.
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You're gonna have to watch the beginning online. Perhaps one of Lost's best opening scenes ever.
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Shes gonna be angry, biatchh
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Looks like Jacob meets with everyone, and possibly caused some of the grief of the LOSTIES. Maybe trying to do something to the time line?
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What new characters?!
Damn 30 minutes and like 100 commercials down already. So glad it's "2 hours". -
Horace isn't Horace... the van man is a lostie?
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Woulda been a nice piece of synergy, ya know?
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Of course this means war!!
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in swedish chef language.
bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork bork
****** end spoilers******* -
Don't want him going out like that.
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...The Observer. That woulda blown people's minds.
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Richard Alpert sledge-hammers a hole in an ancient temple's wall and it leads to a basement rec room in Dharmatown?
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going out like boba fett. weak.
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hahaha loved Jack´s smile when Hurley/Jin driving the van came around.
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like a dream indeed
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May 13, 2009 8:38:59 PM CDT
Damn... So it was Sayid's remains in the Dharma van all along...
by mrhazard
I'll miss you Sayid... You were my favorite Iraqi torturer...
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...one can only hope.
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My rec room is like that, except instead of an ancient temple there's a nest of possums on the other side of the wall. But they're from the future!
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galavanting around with that core in his damn backpack would kill Sayid anyway.
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I came in just as she was dying. What happened to her?
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May 13, 2009 8:40:29 PM CDT
jack will die and make a return in season six as...
by supercowbell4therequestformorecowbell
half man, half robot. and this time...its personal
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vincent?
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RULES
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Miles, im sorry!
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Hahaha. Just what I was thinking.
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That's pretty wacky.
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Why couldn't Miles talk with dead Faraday?
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Fuck!
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because were retired, best rose line yet
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Why do I worry that's what we'll ALL be saying at the end of this episode? ;^)
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Oh this shit is great!!!!!!!!!!
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Something i always thought
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...wouldn't be a modern fable without a Magical Negro granting a life lesson to the angry, violent white youngsters.
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dying and just wanting to be together pretty much solidifies that those skeletons are them.
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do i detect a death flag?
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It must be jelly cuz jam don't shake like that...
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. . . Bernard. That woulda been so awesome.
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But I love it!
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Asking Ilana for help?
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I bet it's Marcellus Wallace's soul.
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I don't get it, they seem to be suggesting that something has changed, maybe in the past?
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COMMERCIAL-centric episode. God.
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As for Sayid's girl, as she and Sayid were crossing street, Jacob stops Sayid to ask for directions and she keeps walking then turns around in middle of street to look back and gets struck by car.
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And that was pretty nifty.
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Or at least the same actor. Woulda been super-duper.
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Nice seeing you but you can be killed off now!I'm a bastard!
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That's my prediction.
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The Lone Gunman chick that just burned down Jacob's shack.
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Jacob and ilana were speaking?
Oh, and this show fucking rocks the house. -
I see conspiracy everywhere.
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Now that would be some scary shit.
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So am I! I hope he's not lying about that,at least.
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to make five word sentences sound like fucking accomplished monologues.
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Why the hell wouldnt you want to kill Jacob.....classic
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Pisces are psychically tuned and sensitive. Ben is certainly lacking in those areas, what with the vaunted title of ONLY FUCKING PERSON ON THIS ISLAND WHO HASN'T SEEN A GHOST
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...and The Monster's the one that keeps bringing people to the island, because it can't kill Jacob for some reason, but it thinks somebody eventually will be able to.
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You win a No-Prize for that quip. I am in awe.
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Man, he get's around.
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So is yours...
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Jacob is everywhere
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I sweeten it with some brown sugar I found inside these Virgin Mary statues...
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Maybe he sells Hurley the lottery ticket!
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ok so here it is, at the beginning of the episode we meet jacob( god ) and the devil, there is some insuation about bringing people there more than once, but it always ends bad (because mortals suck), so now we see jacob (god), interjecting himself into the chosen lostie's lives, as if he is hand picking his apostles.... john locke = john the baptist? anyone care to toss this one around?
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fucking things up for her own benefit
Just like she has her entire life
steals, kills over and over.
Kate is a sociopath -
Rowr!
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He's either a patient or visitor at the mental hospital a la Abbaddon, or he's a cashier at KFC. Either way, someone Hurley would instinctively trust.
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and in front of the bus JUST IN TIME?
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Not even close....Lost knocks it out the ball park again
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or Claire? Claire makes my webbed toes tingle and even though Charlie's death was great, they should have brought his ass back more than once.
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....have we had in the last few finales? Nice shot there of the foot.
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streaming link its down!
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Okaaaaaay!
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I remember years ago, hearing this horrific story of a spinal surgery gone wrong, and it made me queasy. Fucked up of them to remind me.
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jacob = john madden and the other group is carrying a huge crate of tough acting tinactin
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That was the greatest opening to Lost ever. Black Rock, Jacob, Statue. Now let's see where they go with it.
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Naaaaah...
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I wonder if he's 'marking' them somehow.
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He's a chocolate pusher!!!
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I was beginning to think Jack was operating on him, or he was one of the surgeons.
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...here's a theory going in my head atm - Richard is trying to beat/kill/take-the-place-of/destroy Jacob and he can't find out how to do it himself so he keeps recruiting "leaders" hoping one of them can do the job or show him how to... so is Locke the one?!
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Jacob lives in the cabin 8 months a year. The Giant Foot is his summer beach house.
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And that is the ultimate bomb, ending Jacob's years of itchy torture. Whoah, FIGHT!!!
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Did you miss the obvious clue?
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'Bout time.
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LOL.
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We're having bad weather here....what did Juliet say before the break?
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brought to the statue and blow up all of it but the foot?
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*grabs brains*
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What does this show have to do with anything?
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..must be some sweet thang for sawyer to hang with that!
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She said she changed her mind,then broke the fourth wall and told us to watch V next season.
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May 13, 2009 9:15:52 PM CDT
Sayid is bleeding to death and Jack agrees to a 5-min talk
by brokenheath
...talk about a malpractice suit.
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that's what I'm thinking as well.
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I want her.
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One arm tied behind his back, gutshot and running a fever...
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Rackage.
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May 13, 2009 9:18:23 PM CDT
we're losing precious time on this stupid sawyer/juliet storylin
by axel fff
let's move on...
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I was gonna switch to chat, cuz it seems better than liveblogging the talkbacks. But there ain't nobody there, and Lost is a verboten subject in the #aintitcool.com chat room. Hrm...
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if I ever bought Suliet in the first place.
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Yes, and he's pissed someone destroyed what was attached to the rest of his summer foot-house, do they know how long it took him to add those extra rooms? I'd be pissed too!;)
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Frig Juliette, eat something wouldja?
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dont trust her Jack
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Titus is 4 I think. Kim Dickens, Paula Malcomson, and Robin Weigert have all shown up.
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But all will be forgiven if Kate dies.
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Who do you "Jack" to more often?
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looks funny.
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May 13, 2009 9:24:37 PM CDT
Manny Ramirez should give Juliet some of his hormone shots
by brokenheath
...I changed my mind, heh. If the bomb goes off and all this never happens then you won't break my heart.
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a watch.
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so many commercials, its driving me nuts
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her shirt in this episode. And I agree about Goode family, looks like it might work.
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lets go!
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May 13, 2009 9:26:08 PM CDT
So, Jacob meets Hurley after his meltdown in the convenience sto
by royston lodge
I'm confused as to when this scene is taking place.
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with Hurley leaving prison
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And it looks like the guitar case wasn't Charlie's afterall.
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their first trip to the island and others after (such as Hurley). Hmmm...
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Good choice.
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Nice.
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... so when it comes to Hurley he just says, "fuck it," and decides to take the direct approach. That's kinda funny.
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Best tits on the island! But my wife still thinks he is hot. :(
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That would prove they had this in mind all along...
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...Mel Brooks, and the foot is the final remains of the Mega Maid from Spaceballs!
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It doesn't matter. All that matters is the overall story. Not everything had to be a carefully plotted piece of the puzzle. I think it far more creative to be able to adapt and make a better story than stick to something just because it was the original idea.
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Jack Busters!
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... not have a plan. Whoa, I think I just fried my own mind.
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literal Deus Ex Machina, I'm gonna destroy something.
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he took Locke's torch, knowing Locke wouldn't need it.
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a) he's REALLY tempting Linus to kill him.
b) He must have something clever in mind, I doubt he wants Linus to kill Jacob. -
... his massive porn collection, which he keeps in the foot.
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You gave Ben Linus a knife and you went in first? A little too cocky maybe?
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BRILLIANT.
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to kill you a knife? Then walk in front of him? Down a dark corridor? Hello, Deathwish!
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I'm going with Esau.
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I beg to disagree
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Oh,I agree! But Darlton said they took Walt's growth spurt into account in their planning, so I keep wondering if they filmed any secret Walt scenes in advance? That would be amazing!
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May 13, 2009 9:36:37 PM CDT
The man talking to Jacob in the beginning of hour one?
by spifftacular squirrel girl
My money is that was Smokey.
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...then turn your back on him. Not the brightest of moves.
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guarantee his name is Esau. Study yo bible.
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His agent. That's why we haven't seen Jacob till now.
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Sort of reminds me of a kinder, softer Chuck Norris. Also he can occasionally be a rampaging douche (see also Sayid's wife), just like Norris.
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. . . go all religious in the final season, with Jacob and "the other guy" being God & the Devil, or something retarded like that. They might as well put Sawyer on waterskis and have a shark swimming just off the beach.
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Now she knows it's love.
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Logic is Lost on those folks, Miles (pun intended).
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I'm just sayin...
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... or maybe paisley.
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I missed that part...
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kates pussy slime got to it
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I was wondering about that
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disable it? On purpose?
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Blondie - not much of one admittedly but it's something.
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fuck you phil!!!
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The writers really don't like blondes.
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Would have been a great response.
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Wow.
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I was wondering about that
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I really didn't like her.
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Juliet is Boba Fett.
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no shit. that was great
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And yet Kate continues to draw breath.
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The EM force was so strong that either a) the explosion got pulled back in on itself, or b) it compressed the core before it went off, creating a black hole.
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because of Sawyer´s man cry, that anguish when sobbing
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Damn you, Jack! Damn you to hell!
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I will miss Juliet!
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...wanna fuck?"
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Or what?
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I doubt any relationships will be that interesting next year.
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that WOULD be awesome!
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Now I feel the opposite... Well, hopefully Sawyer will go back to being an asshole again... Juliet was making him soft anyway...
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How many answers can they cram in to 10 minutes?
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That's kinda cheesy.
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I hate who ever decided to kill off Juliet!!!!
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Seriously, what the fuck did richard just say?
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C'mon she useless!
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I JUST SHIT MYSELF.
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i fucking knew it was john mother fuckin locke!
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!!!!!!!!!!!
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Guess we were on to something for once.
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that is awesome
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calling it right now
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*screams like a girl*
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Not thats a fucking head trip
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Now thats a fucking head trip
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They're totally setting up Jacob as God and "Esau" as the deceiver/Satan. I'm not lookin' forward to the last season if that's how this plays out.
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whoa
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anyone speak latin?
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May 13, 2009 9:55:03 PM CDT
i love that Milkshake brought attention to John Locke's HUGE man
by gooberngrape
three cheers for LOST night!
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Alex didnt know it wasnt the real locke..
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Go, Ben!!!
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Yeah, it had a lot of cool stuff, particularly the Jacob stuff, but the past few weeks were much better, and this episode feared how it would, with something big happening, but not knowing what has happened until next season.
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Jacob and the other one are angels. The Island is eden and they were its guardians.
One wants out tne other is doing his job.
blah, blah, blah -
just wow
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seriously.
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What the crap. Best show ever.
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That ending is weak. Not just the enormous kaboom, but all the biblical stuff as well. It seems pretty obvious now that the island is Eden. Weak.
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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bullshit!
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that was amazing.
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wowwwwwwww
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DAMMIT I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL 2010 TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS! TOO MANY QUESTIONS! WHAT THE FUCK!
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I didn't know Juliet would say it too! ;^)
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Aziz Ansari. Just me? Underwhelming finale.
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Locke deadWho the fuck else isn't dead-dead?I need time to digest this.
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Not that I didnt like the episode but now I gotta wait until next year to find out what the hell is going on!!! Goddamnit...
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locke would have to be adam, not the devil
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I cant fuckin believe we´ll have to wait 2010, i thought last season was gonna start yet this fuckin year FUCK
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2010 DAMMIT DAMMIT FUCK AATGHGHAGKADL;NDSKL;NSDA;KLA;
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That this whole time, post Locke's death, Locke has in fact been dead, and it's just been the Smoke Monster (or something?) posing as him on the Island, that wanted Jacob dead? Is that right? Because if that's the case...that's pretty cool. Still not a GREAT finale though.
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"ille qui nos omnes servabit"
I think it roughly means: The way to our salvation. -
anyone who says this was an average episode or underwhelming finale is way off the mark. we got more answers to some of the most important questions, than any other episode, seriously just look at all we learned about jacob, the island, the third group, richard, the statue, etc... what will it take to make you people happy?
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is both jacob and the other guy at different times. each manuliptating events their way
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Since I don't read I only remember the TV movie with Sean Bean and Matthew Modine. I thought they were brothers and Jacob stole his inheritance? When did they become angels or demons or whatever?
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Hmmmm....so this is going to be my new home for the next 8 months? Sweet.
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She should've been dead and if not she certainly should've been paralyze!The only misstep to an otherwise great season finale!
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...but I think it was the guy we saw in the beginning talking to jacob who said he wanted to kill him.
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Ok - so it can't top season 3. What can? But, if that was Jacob in the shadow of the statue, who was in his cabin? And what was the significance of the ashes? Someone let Jacob out?
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Remember Bugs in the bomb factory? Mallet whack on the bomb to set it off. Was that Enubis that took over Locke? How the Hell are they going to pick this up next season?
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..or Twitter. Christ, it didn't take them long to come out.
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Does this mean that John Locke as we know him is really dead and gone and will stay that way? So does that mean OQuinn gets to play "devil" Locke all through next season?
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...and not going to be happy if everything turns out to be basic god/devil conflict or angels in Eden or whatever. My wife has been swearing that that is how it will turn out, and I have sworn to leave her if that's how the show ends up. Seriously, Lost, my marriage is on the line here. Don't fuck it up.
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The reveal of it being a flash forward is one of the few genuine moments I've been surprised/shocked by TV.
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...seemed to imply that Locke was something else, masqaurading as Locke. Went through a lot of trouble to look like Locke, or be reborn in his image?
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The reason I screamed when I saw Locke in the box *giggle* is because I assumed it was Smokey. And all this time I believed he was really John Locke. Now we're talking Bible stuff, which I've never been good at. I've always just skipped to the end so *shrug*
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I get "he who we all being saved" when I run it through an on-line translator.
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with his appearance in all of their lives pre-island, i guess they truly were meant to get there. so since this was apparently the end of time travel, do we get a poor Juliet? because if time travel is out, either the bomb went off and she's vaporized or she survived the flash and is stuck down there dying.
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Literally: "That one who will save us all."
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just happened?
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May 13, 2009 10:08:14 PM CDT
Ok next season better be Walt doing some magic shit!
by hollywoodhellraiser
And whoever stated this episode was weak or boring is FULL OF PIG SHIT!
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What did he mean by "You got your loophole?"
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Wow. Just. Wow. Fringe had an awesome finale, and LOST's finale was flat out !@#$ fantastic. TOTALLY didn't see the twist with Locke coming!!! And the white freeze frame at the end, good God, Team Darlton is EVIL. CANT WAIT UNTIL 2010!!!
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jacob lived in the statue, esau lived in the cabin (not jacob), the ashes kept esau locked away, until he was set free from his prison, the real jacob had to recruit these "losties" for some reason we dont know yet
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What happened to him being the great new leader of the Others? His big destiny was just to push that button for awhile, then wander around confused in the jungle during season 3 wondering what he's supposed to do, then when everyone leaves he has to go and get strangled by ben to bring them back. And that's it. Big fucking deal. I got excited when this new Locke was walking around knowing what to do and leading and shit. Fucking finally, I thought. Now I'm actually kind of hoping Jack's plan works. Even though that would basically render this past five years we've watched "noncanon" or whatever. Kind of a lame season ender anyway though, but I wasn't real excited about this season anyway.
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one is Longinus and the other the Wandering Jew
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...Think Jacob said to the dude dressed in black something about him trying to find a loophole...
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That was awesome, and we have not a fucking clue at what is coming next. Cliffhanger isn't who shot JR or who's a fucking Cylon, but what will existence be? Don't know who is alive or dead, what year it is, anything really. Love it.
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It means something like that who will save everyone. BUT, who is the who in that statement!! Hmm LOST speak up fucker, you are half a year away. Cocksmoker.
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I'm pretty sure what he said was "the man who will save us (or me)"
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He who saves us all.
I think it's in one of the psalms. -
Truly, one of the best finales of Lost, I believe. It offered the perfect amount of answers and titillating questions (Jacob visiting Losties, Locke as probable Smokie, Illana and crew's allegiances).... I was legitimately talking to the television as the episode progressed. Have I gone crazy, or was this episode just that good?
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So the guy inhabiting Locke's "resurection" body is obviously that guy who was on the beach at the beginning of the episode who said he wanted to kill him. Clearly, some rule is in place where he couldn't,and now hes found the "loophole" or something, and got Ben to his dirty work. I wonder who he is, and I hope Jacob doesn't die, cause I obviously want to know more about him
Also, who the hell is that guy on the beach anyway? I can't believe we have to wait 8 months to find out anything new.
Overall, awesome, awesome stuff. Whoever said that last scene was lame is an idiot in my opinion. It was perfect, and it made me sad. I screamed out loud when it ended, so frustrating! I'll miss Juliet. I'd rather Kate died.
Finally, Jin, buddy...you had to write that down? It was one sentence. -
in another chat I asked if that other guy in the very beginning was Esau but that was just a guess. Is Smokey/Locke that guy too? Was Smokey in the cabin before the ask got moved? Was that guy wearing black because he's Smokey?
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But come on, that was like a regular random episode, not a finale. And the Juliet thing was too predictable. If they are going to focus on Jacob so much this episode they should have given us more answers about him. And we all figured the bomb was going to blow since it was introduced in Jughead, so not showing any repercussions from it made it feel a bit pointless. Juliet in the shirt in the jungle almost made up for it but not quite.
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That's the point. Locke was never special. It's really depressing, but all he ended up being was a vessel for this guy I like to call "esau"
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yeahh, guess you guys beat me to it, haha
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BECOMES the Smoke Monster. :^)
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someone let the other guy out
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May 13, 2009 10:11:12 PM CDT
Karatemedia is your wife hot? I don't want to jump the gun..
by hollywoodhellraiser
but if Lost kills your marriage I'll sub for you, buddy!I want less biblical stuff but good writing is good writing.
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Kinda like, oh, just off the top of my head, JESUS!
Weak. -
did anyone else get teary eyed when sun found charlies ring? i think what makes this episode stand out are all the little moments like that. made me miss poor charlie. and fuck the haters. that ep was the shit. and the prospect of jacob = god figure vs esau = satan figure, im all for it. its called allegory people, good vs evil, doesnt mean that jacob is literally God and thats where theyre going with it. jeesums.
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Just seems too obvious (i.e. In the 1st scene, Jacob dressing in WHITE and the opposing character dressing in BLACK...)
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So the man in the cabin who Locke saw wasn't Jacob after all... it was Esau?
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Isn't (dead)Locke where the shadow of the statue should be? So, maybe we will get some Locke vs. Locke action...I'd say that the flash-forward of season 3 was the first major WTF of finales, but this has one has got me wondering what in the hell is going to happen next season.Please, don't dissapoint.
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..we have an unambigiously Evil character. The way the episode started, it was set up as if this "Esau" chappy and Jacob were indeed a pair, if not necassarily kin..
That's the impression I got, anyway.
Oh, and rest in peace, dear John Locke. I wonder if his visage will be the one that Esau will continue to wear for next season. It seemed to me something he took great pains to get... -
But I'm pretty sure 'ille qui nos omnes servabit' translates as "That (man) who will have saved us all."
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Esau is not the devil, he was jacobs brother, who loved hunting and the outdoors. He traded his birthright to 'Jacob' for some pottage. So they are not setting up for a god -vs- devil smackdown..They are just connecting Jacob and Locke together using a old hebrew story.
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And we knew something was off about Locke.Poor, poor naive Locke thinking he was the one!Walt told you Locke and you ignored him!See NEVER, EVER ignore the weird kid with powers!
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jeebus, the typing
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All we know is that the current Locke is actually the dude from the beginning of the episode.
My take: Jacob is the island caretaker. He's in control. He allows people who find the island to make choices about what to do there. It inevitably leads to utopia, then dystopia, chaos, fighting, and death. His pal at the beginning (Esau) is tired of this cycle and wants it to end. He finally gets his way by killing Jacob through deceit.
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Quitcher bitchin. If you want to write a better script change your profession. This was a really great episode. Yeah, I've read the stuff about the actress playing Juliet leaving for "V". Still...that scene ROCKED. And I too like the idea that we have NO idea what next season will bring. Disappointed in this episode? What other show leaves you know know what in the hell comes next? Huh? Tell me, I'd like to know....
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I was wondering, since they're going with the Egyptian motif, if these aren't Egyptian "gods", like Seth and Osiris. (I know Seth didn't need a loophole.)
So many answers that leave so many questions. Can't wait to watch it again. -
Now, I know they can bring anyone back, but, the dude was stabbed, then kicked in the fire. Ok, unless he's Jesus or Aslan, he is dead as a doornail! (I know no one is ever really dead on this show, except Locke? Maybe?)
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I mean, seriously, what's going to happen next season? If the 815 crash timeline is deleted, what's going to happen?
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and his "life" on the island. Was that another incarnation the thing that is posing as Locke?
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That guy somehow took posession of Locke back in the cabin.
He was the one who said, "Help Me". -
I am certainly starting to think that the first inference of Jacob in the cabin should be noted as a landmark. whether or not it is esau remains to be seen, but I think that one can at the very least say that Locke is the new evil on the island... or so it would seem.
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at the begining of the ep, the full statue had a croc-a-gator face
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...theyre coming. Who did he mean. The people that the statue was based on.
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... in the episode. We're just using that name out of convenience.
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Guy sees a zombie doppleganger and all he can say is, 'terrific'...
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May 13, 2009 10:19:10 PM CDT
Darlton told the truth, they didnt pull a Sopranos fade2black
by d.vader
The pulled a Fade to White!
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if what they are doing is actually changing something, or if they are just causing the incident they were trying to prevent. I personally think they are just causing the incident unfortunately, which is less interesting, but makes more sense. I don't know what that means for our heroes, but I doubt its going to do what they hoped for.
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I sure as hell didn't see that coming.
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When Ben tells him what the smoke monster/Alex told him about following Locke's orders, Locke acted as if it were all new information. He even asked what she had said. I could see if he were merely surprised that Ben would obey, but all of it seemed a surprise.
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Ben is Job?
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this is just a complete guess on my part but....after he said they're coming, we cut to Jack and friends. so i'm thinking he meant they were returning to the present with the explosion or whatever happens after Juliet set off the bomb. i'm probably wrong but yeah. lol
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The anti-Jacob, Jacob's brother, the Devil. Henceforth known as Bocaj.
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been focusing on her and James trying to save Juliette butt DAMN! That's why Jack and James were beating the shit out of each other. Must have that ass. Incredible episode. Poor John Locke that's fucked up.
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They have been tricked the whole time. The guy in the cabin in season 3 was never Jacob. It was the bad guy we shall call Esau for now. Esau has been trying to trick Locke this whole time to use him to kill Jacob.
The last thing Jacob said is that their coming. I will state now he is referring to the people in the past coming back to 2007/2008 with Jacob somehow helping them since i have a feeling jacob cant really die. -
If the only "loophole" he needed was a dead body he could have killed Jacob in Season One. Something else is going on...
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Jack, in 1977, is trying to set off a bomb that destroys the future button-pushing Dharma station, leading to O 815 never crashing, and none of this every happening. He is, again, trying this in 1977.
Locke is living in 2007, on the island. His version of 2007 has a photograph of Jack on the island with the Dharma people in 1977. That means that everything Jack is going to do is ALREADY INCLUDED IN Locke's past.
Because Locke, Sun, Ben, Lapidus, etc. all exist in 2007, and all remember O-815 crashing, that means Jack's plan didn't work. If it had worked, then there could never have been a version of 2007 with Locke on the island, but which ALSO included Jack back in 1977.
Now, from our point of view, WE just witnessed the bomb explode. But from Locke's point of view, that is 30 years in the past, and it was 30 years in the past already when Ajira 316 crashed. There is no sense in which the 1977 timeline and the 2007 timeline are unfolding in parallel, except that that's how they're being presented to us. Locke's 2007 always included this explosion as part of the past, so there's no logical reason that that can all of a sudden be changed now. -
Not half as exciting as past season finales. Oh well, at least we will finally start getting answers next season. Or will we?
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Gen. 27:41
And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. -
this is another take on fantasy island. jacob is mr rourk and the other guy is tattoo
tattoo hates his job -
and jacob appears in one episode and gets killed by ben.
LOCKE DEAD = LOST DEAD -
May 13, 2009 10:22:12 PM CDT
Say, haven't folk said how much Lost resembles The Stand?
by royston lodge
With this whole Jesus/Jacob vs. Satan/Esau thing, it sure does look like that's how it's playing out.
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talking about Jack. or Walt
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Nothing changed... Right???
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"How's Claire?"
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DAAAAAAARRRRRLLLLLTOOONNNN!!!!!
Why do I feel like Captain Kirk in Wrath of Kahn!?
Dammit. Part of me wants to say fuck this, and not think about this show until next year. I'm exhausted. No idea what's coming next. Awesome job you evil bastards. -
Adam & Eve
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that the dude's name is Esau. Somebody should call Darlton in case they don't know.
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I think the major reveal/setup for next season is the fact that Locke is not exactly himself. The carcass of his former self seemed to seal that deal, and although people can speculate on what exactly happened when Juliet slammed on Jughead's core, I think that the reveal of Locke's true self is one of the only concrete pieces of the puzzle we'll be able to go on for the next several months.
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As much as I dislike Kate lately, she just looks amazing in those jeans. I would do some incredibly inappropriate things to Miss Austen.
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he meant the people with loches body, that will expose anti-locke
Ben is going to be big time pissed.
I wouldn't want to be anti-locke -
The "blast to white" is feeling a little weak - largely because it leaves me with the feeling of "they don't know what they're doing, so they just wrote themselves a big out before the final season."
I really wanted to see one final shot, like Jack falling out of the sky in Ancient Egypt, Ash-style, in his Ghostbusters uniform, aiming his boomstick at an attacking Smokey.
Or something. Anything to actually set up the final season, instead of what feels like kind of a cop out. -
I'm with ya, bud. I actually think I'm gonna take a quick break and rewatch that episode because I'm still having trouble processing. Thank god for DVR is all I'm saying.
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As much as I dislike Kate lately, she just looks amazing in those jeans. I would do some incredibly inappropriate things to Miss Austen.
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That's what we're looking at here. And as soon as I pick my brains up off the floor I'll start being able to try to figure everything out how the pieces fit.. But in the meantime...anyone else see shades of Milton?
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they were interviewd on Attack of the Show and referred to that wheel as the donkey wheel. now i'm not so obsessed i remember all the details of this show but was it ever referenced as such? because i've always figured this was a term created on this talkback. so if they do read...maybe Esau will become official cannon. :p
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May 13, 2009 10:25:50 PM CDT
The Statue Is Taweret, Protector of Pregnant Women
by tina_turners_vicodin
Check it out:
http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2009/04/the-statue-tawaret-this-is-the-theory-of-doninhu/ -
could not disagree with you more.
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Amen, brother. Like I said when Kate was in disguise in seasons of old, I'd recognize that ass anywhere; it's been firmly imprinted in my mind. I think I could watch an entire episode from an angle shot just behind Kate.
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noises of collapsing crane/chains = smoke monster noises
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Maybe these are the rules they set up, or the rules of Jacob's world. In order for him to have real influence, he has to be real flesh and blood human, and so does the devil. Not sure if Jacob's spirit can be killed, but killing his human form may take him off of the playing field long enough for Locke to have the edge he needs. I agree that theLOSTIES might be Jacob's warriors, or human angels recruited to fight for good.
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Well, I was rooting for the nuke to re-set the timeline - I hope that's what we're dealing with. I was crushed to see that Locke was dead - I want him back in the alternate timeline. Jack's had become a pansy, unless he's killing people left & right, and Sawyer was Juliet's lap dog. These characters need fixing.
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and we know Mr.Stephen King is a big fan of the show and has talked with Cuse & Co. a few times as well in magazines/interviews etc.
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The power in my entire neighborhood went out for the last 30 minutes!!! Where can I find this online tonight?!?!?!?!?
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oh, I hope so :P
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wasnt the bomb going off it was them going back to their place in time....maybe......fuck i have no clue
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May 13, 2009 10:28:59 PM CDT
They're coming = Fine-ass Ilana and her 'good guys' crew...
by mrhazard
That was easy to figure out... NEXT... Cant wait to see how Zombie Locke explains Corpse Locke to the Losties...
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Jacob will inhabit his body / reanimate him.
Jacob goaded Ben into killing him. He will now be surrounded by believers and Esau / Locke will be in a small confined area with a upset Ben with a knife -
The loophole, I think, is something that Richard said about only a leader could visit Jacob? He stops Locke as he tries to bring Ben into the statue, saying that only the leader can visit Jacob, IIRC.
So, if Esau took over Christian's body, he still couldn't visit Jacob, because he wasn't the leader of the Others? -
I'm just glad that those foilers about the castaways appearing as older versions of themselves didn't come true. I half-expected it near the end, but was glad they didn't come near to the truth at the final minutes. i honestly don't know where they're going from here. No idea.
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that's awful, dude. Keep checking EZTV to see if they post a torrent.
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widmore fit into all of this? and wheres desmond.... see you in another life brother
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could not agree with you more.
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Desmond again. :( I can't see a reason why we would and there is that lawsuit. I knew that bit with him and Penny looked too much like an ending.
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That was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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This end was FUCKING AWESOME? You know what's fucking weak? Season 1's finale where it ends with them looking down the hatch hole. that's it. after a season of buildup, we see nothing but a ladder going into black. THAT's weak. This episode gave us Jacob, Locke's true nature, how/why all the losties actually got to the island (jacob brought them) and an overarching narrative for WHY these things are happening. In the first 2 minutes!!! Relax people. this was 5. fucking. stars.
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May 13, 2009 10:33:09 PM CDT
The actress that plays Kate needs to be WonderWoman!
by hollywoodhellraiser
Beef her up and she good to go!
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at this rate, this TB will reach 10,000 posts by Sunday.
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heard all this shit at catholic school. and it was fucking boring then.
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Think about it.
The episode starts sometime in the distant past. He's luring travelers there. In that case, it was a centuries old sail ship. The assumption is that he's testing these people.
It's the old Q "humanity on trial" test. In this case, Jacob & the other guy are testing changes in human behavior.
I think that they want to see if either:
A) Humanity is evolved enough yet to take care of the island and take their place
OR
B) If this is indeed the Garden of Eden, the test may be to see if humanity has evolved enough to deserve paradise.
Obviously, those two guys have been testing people for centuries. I'm guessing that the closest they ever got to perfection was Richard himself.
I'm also betting that Richard was on that ship at the very beginning. Count on it.
Jacob & "Esau" continue to test people. As Jacob insists, they get closer to what they're looking for with each test.
This is why the Oceanic survivors will fail. They're guilty of all of the barbarism that caused the other "applicants" to fail the test.
I think that, by the end of the show, most of the cast will be obliviously returned to their old lives.... EXCEPT for Jack & Ben. I think those two will end up replacing Jacob & Esau.
Jacob can't possibly be dead. The guy obviously made Richard immortal. He himself has been around for centuries. A stupid knife and some fire is not going to kill him. It's all part of the test on humanity.
Esau couldn't kill Jacob because it would be a conflict of interest. It's impossible to conduct the test if the tester is whispering the answers in your ear.
It's the Prime Directive. Neither Jacob nor Esau can take direct action. However, they can nudge people into action.
Esau's "loophole" was to manipulate the circumstances. If these guys are betting on whether humanity will fail or succeed it pays if somebody is stacking the deck.
Jacob would rather let things play out and let humanity's spirit either triumph or fail on its own merits. Esau CLEARLY wants to stack the deck and play dirty pool.
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think that the loophole was necessarily about direct interference. The loophole probably had to do with them being able to leave the island.
If they're basically non-corporeal beings, like the smoke monster, the only way they could leave is if they inhabited the body of actual people. Possession. Esau's loophole was to body hop, leave the island and THEN stack the deck in his favor by manipulating everybody over the course of the past 30+ years.
Dharma. The Others. The Oceanic survivors. ALL OF THEM. Manipulated by a Esau, who used body hopping to act outside of the island.
That would also explain how Jack's father, who was dead, has appeared on the island from time to time.
Jack was delivering the body of his dead father via plane in the 1st episode. Esau, or whatever his name is, has used that body to manipulate people like Locke.
Hurley is NOT crazy. Technically, he is seeing dead people. However, it is Esau using their bodies and maybe channeling his power (whatever) through them.
That would also explain why Miles can only hear dead people. -
And why couldn't have MacLachlan been Jacob? Yes, there are shades of Twin Peaks, The Stand, and many other great texts.
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"He who will save us all." THIS IS GREAT!!!!
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And I think that wil be one of the most debated things about the finale for the next few months - so maybe it was a really smart idea.
Still, it doesn't give me the greatest confidence that they know where they're going post-explosion. Simplest explanation is that the '77 Losties end up back in '07, which would be a boring way to end this finale, so no reason to reveal it now.
Still, I was hoping for a batshit crazy ending for the '77 troops. -
theories is on the show is that the science of time travel touches on what some might call the spiritual realm. You could even argue that they are extremely advanced beings fighting a struggle. Science at a God-like level maybe?
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I truly hope this is not the last we see of him. Pellegrino, for the short time he was onscreen, I must say did an outstanding job of filling the shoes of a character fans have had an image of in their mind since S3. I hope his burning carcass is not the last we shall see of him. Although, listening to the finale podcast it would seem that the creators had some idea of of his fate.......referring to him as a 60 ft. pillar of flame. While not that tall, he certainly is a burn victim.......
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Tell me i'm not the only one that was screaming,,, Wesly Snipes did that in Demolition Man,, Man kill this guy
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I haven't posted in Lost talkbacks before, but have watched every episode, if only out of sheer curiosity and the fact that it is generally well-played and one of the more interesting shows on network TV. Personally, I think this series has been copping out since the beginning of season 3. It should have only been a 3 season show to really work effectively as a series. I'll follow it through, but if this season is any indication of how the final season will play out, even with an Abrams directed series finale, count me disappointed.
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May 13, 2009 10:36:51 PM CDT
There's a reason the show leave us with a "What the hell" feelin
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
They take it off in a completely different direction every season, often to the detriment of the show I think. They make you think the show is going to be about one thing, but it ends up being a big nothing. That's not neccesarily a bad thing, a lot of time it works on the show for the small things, but the big things like THE OVERALL DIRECTION AND POINT to the show, it doesn't work so much for that. It's been like the this for the Hatch (ending up not meaning a whole lot), then the Others (almost as complete a mystery to us now as when they were first revealed), then Widmore (we know now he's just some former leader wanting to get back, wouldn't be suprised if we never see him again), then the Oceanic Six plotline (s3 ending makes it seem like a big deal, s4 spends the whole time just gettng it started, then it's resolved in no time in s5). The FINAL SEASON in this 6 year long serial show is going to start next year and either it will undo everything we've seen so far (unlikely, but maybe) OR it's going to be about character and elements just introduced to us or are completely unknown to us. It's fucked up. It doesn't make for very enjoyable viewing in my opinion, all this setup for nothing. I brought up Locke earlier because his character is kind of a microcosm of the entire show. Walkabout was the episode that got me hooked. He saw the monster and lived to talk about it, he was crippled before the crash etc. He was built up to be this chosen one type guy to lead the others for years now, but actually he just gets strangled during the halfassed oceanic 6 storyline and that's it, some dude is using his body now. All this talk of destiny but nobody has really ever DONE anything. One season left and we've no idea what the purpose of anything actually is. That's not how I'd write a serial show. I actually think these shortened seasons have hurt the show. It's all so rushed now the weaknesses in their plotting have become more apparent. Somebody just watching the final season without having any idea of what the show is about would have almost as much information as I do.
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I'm surprised James didn't try to cop a feel of that ass even while trying to save Juliette. Like an idiot I turned to the show at the end of Jacob's conversation with the guy on the beach. What was his name and what did they talk about? All I saw was "Always nice talking to you Jacob."
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with 30 years older makeup wearing Jin walking out of the Temple to meet Sun, the way some of the spoilers had led us to believe. And how can Richard tell Sun he "saw them die" when Hurley was in that picture and he wasn't anywhere near that nuke? Hmmmm...
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...a white smoke monster and a black smoke monster. Im guessing the white smoke monster is jacob and the black one is esau and those bodies that we saw them in were just their current vessels.
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I've heard that there are similarities between LOST and THE STAND? And Damon is apparently a King fan. As a die hard LOST junkie, is THE STAND overrated drivel or something totally worth checking out?
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liked the season a whole, but what a whimper of an ending, despite the nuke going off
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I always saw Locke as a Christ-like figure, in that he was going to have to sacrafice himself.A few episodes back I started to think that Locke was the man-in-the-box (cue Alice in Chains), so I wasn't really all that surprised by it.My thinking is that now we (as I said above) will get a Locke vs. Locke moment... mainly since Terry (also a name that has something to do with God (I think)) O'Quinn was the only person specifically chosen to play his role.Goddamnit, I hope we don't get a the-end-is-the-begining-is-the-end finish (ala Dark Tower).
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The anti-Jacob, Jacob's brother, the Devil. Henceforth known as Bocaj.
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May 13, 2009 10:40:05 PM CDT
We need for that statue to come alive and go apeshit..
by hollywoodhellraiser
on everybody! Cloverfield my ass!
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Didn't he say that he saw the Oceanic 6 die in the 1970s? Have we forgotten about that now?
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Poor Magnus...he has no idea what's in store for him.
Welp...I called the quadrangle going back to a love triangle...and I called Juliet's demise.
I called Pierre losing that left arm.
I called a stone back door on Anubis. Must be a bitch to close behind you when you go out for groceries though!
Wow. Answers galore. But even more questions. Anyone wanna take a crack at these?
1. What's in Hugo's guitar case? Whatever it was, it obviously wasn't needed for 'the incident'.
2. Why is Richard so clueless? How can he NOT KNOW a. That it's not the real Locke? b. That he's never seen a person be 'brought back to life' by the island. c. Doesn't he seem more & more 'out of the loop' and less & less 'magical'?
3. What was up with Rose & Bernard? Where were they in relation to the island? Some place that Juliet, Sawyer & Kate had never SEEN before? I thought the Losties had been all OVER that island. Is it now just matter of time before B n R turn out to be A n E in the caves?
4. So Jacob and his buddy at the beginning implied that people had been coming and going from the island for centuries as they stared at the Black Rock about to come ashore. They talked about history repeating itself over and over again....the fighting...the killing...(Hmmmm...B n R sounded the same way, huh?). Questions are...WHO ARE THESE TWO...HOW LONG HAVE THEY BEEN WATCHIN THIS HAPPEN...and WHY DID THE DUDE WANNA KILL JACOB?
5. So...Did Jack/Faraday's plan "fix" the future...or did they just create the REASON a button had to be pushed every 108 minutes? I'm wondering if 'the plan' didn't work, how ANY of them survived being so close to a thermo nuclear explosion?
6. Where's my Claire Bear?
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then Richard '07 might not be so far off base. It's what he saw, but it may not be 100% what happened. The bomb probably shunted them.
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You're saying Locke the way he was on the island recently is like bad Dale?
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Please give Josh Holloway an Emmy!
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the reveal that Locke is in fact dead??? Would that have been better than the 'fade-to-white'??? Might've been repetitive since that was the reveal at the end of last year's finale... Still that was a lot more shocking than the bomb going off... Regardless, I still liked the fade-to-white...
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I would rather hypothesize on well scripted mysteries in LOST as opposed to have fully understandable trash thrown in my face every week (I'm looking at you, HEROES).
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Oh, I totally get where you're coming from. But I wouldn't trade the feeling I had when the ending title came up for anything against that white backdrop for anything. Because at this moment I cannot even begin to guess where they're driving this ship.
And there has to be something to that: the colors of the title were inverted. It's always been white lettering on black, now it's black lettering on white. I'm sure they're trying to tell us something about what's happening even if it's just a signal of control of the island transferring from Jacob's hands to Esau's and all that that implies. I just don't know.
I will say though that there is definitely a part of me that wishes I had the remote from Click right now just so I can see the first episode of next season RIGHT. NOW. -
Anyone want to know about that Greek that Jacob was weaving in the beginning?
The words are ancient Greek--Homeric Greek, in fact. They say:
θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς. (Hope this Greek display works).
It's from the Odyssey, Book 6, line 180. It means "May the gods give you everything that you desire in your heart." They are the words Odysseus says to the princess Nausicaa when he washes up on her island while he's trying to get home to Penelope--Penelope who is, by the way, weaving and unweaving a tapestry back at home even as he's doing this.
Now go back up and read my damn time travel theory! -
Well, really thought this was going to be explained. My 8 month guess is that it's full of double-fat mayonnaise and ho-ho's.
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My favorite part of the whole evening was that really brief scene with Rose and Bernard. Seriously, I almost cried when he said, "So we die. All that matters is that we're together." Call me a pussy. I don't care. Fuck you.
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Juliet fell! He was only saying those things to Juliet because he was feeling guilty! LOLNaw, I'm kidding! Although Kate is the kind of woman who looks good dirty and clean!That bastard from LOTR is a dumbass for letting that piece of ass go!
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seems like no matter what, everything is happening as it did anyway. they should have done nothing.
was dr chang's injury really bad enough to lose his lower arm- like in the films? looked like just his hand to me. maybe he loses all muscle control in that arm, and it's not fake like we thought. well, they still have to explain the dates and the periods of having the dead arm and not having it in the films. -
I'm still on board. I cam back on board when they announced an end date for the series, and I don't feel like I've been completely disappointed yet. I'm torn on the fade-to-white, but think the Locke twist is interesting.
They stumbled in the middle of the series, IMHO, but even D&C said they originally envisioned this as running approx. 100 episodes. They claim they always knew the beginning and the end, so I'm willing to trust them on that.
This is just one of those shows where I can't profess my love or hat for it until the final episode. It's like trying to form an opinion on The Usual Suspects w/out seeing the end. -
I'm not the best authority on the Bible, but didn't Jacob wrestle an angel and win. Perhaps God imprisoned the Angel after he lost to Jacob, and when Jacob eventually died as an old man, instead of going to Heaven, his soul was banished to the Island with the Angel. Somehow, they are both doomed to repeat events for eternity as penance for their fight.
Of course it is probably Esau. They didn't say his name for a reason, but his hair was a "smoky" color. -
You know it!
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I'm on board with your theory, but I think everyone pretty much is. The only people that don't believe the "what happened, happened" hypothesis are the losties themselves. We all know you can't change the past or else suffer a universe-ending paradox in the time/space continuum.
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Worth a read, regardless of the possible influence on Lost. The only thing I found was that Mother Abigail is 108 years old... although that hardly constitutes a legitimate connection...or does it?
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Definitely on the same wavelength there. I think the first two seasons were just phenomenal, but the show ended up being such an unexpected hit that the writers/producers found themselves scrambling for a means to keep the series going, and we've since had what feels like rather contrived plot points the rest of the way. All hope for a killer final season lies in the fact the producers did decide to end the show in the sixth season. That and hopefully the writers have been developing all these plot points toward an already determined endpoint for it all.
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I wonder what the relationship between Smokey and the Walking Dead are. I always thought it strange that Smokey disappeared before Alex showed up before Ben, ie, we never actually *saw* Smokey turn into Alex- she just sorta appeared. And she was under the control of Bocaj, setting up the pieces, making sure Ben would do whatever Lock told him to do, so that Ben would kill Jacob. This means that Smokey might just be unaffiliated. However, it suggests entirely that Bocaj has been in control of Christian and has set up the entire plot to get Locke off-Island, get Locke dead, get Locke brought back, so that he can manipulate Ben.
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It was Bocaj's shack. Illana said "he hasn't been here for a very long time," and said that someone else had been living there instead. Who? Christian. Saying he was speaking on behalf of Jacob. But he wasn't- he was working with Bocaj.
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but the twist ending is what makes The Usual Suspects. I don't think your analogy holds. At least in my opinion, I don't think the ALMIGHTY FINAL ANSWER is the most important thing. It's the experience of pursuing that, of discourses like this, of being left wondering what the fuck would happen next. Honestly, I already think I'm going to be let down by THE answer (how could I not be after spending so much time thinking about it), but that won't ruin my ultimate enjoyment of the show.
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That would have been a much better ending, and would have left us all speculating about what it meant. It would have left us itching for the next season premiere to explain it. The way they actually ended it, I don't really care about the next season premiere.
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yeah whats in the guitar case and is desmond no longer in the arc
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I believe you are correct, but that's based entirely on my listening to U2 in the '80s.
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...werent there two smokies...the white one and the black one...to me that would make it obvious which one is which and what their motivations would be.
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...will have 27,000 comments by mid-morning tomorrow. That's all I got.
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the writers have said they were influenced by it... for those that are too young or dont' remember...
You are dropped on a mysterious island with strange landmarks and riddles. You discover there are TWO BROTHERS chasing each other through time a la Cain and ABLE. If I remember right one is crazy and evil the other is good. Apply that to this series and tonight's episode and there you have it.
THEY ARE COMING.... -
...why they rip off Iron Maiden songs. "Powerslave", anyone?
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. so why did they have to ruin it by having her be alive and able to detonate? she was at the bottom of a pile of stuff that would have been crushing her- plus the magnetic force of it all. AND stuff fell in before her yet she was at the 'bottom' of it all. uh-huh.
now, if she had had the strength to just look over at the bomb, and brush her hand over it or push something inside and it went off as she died- that would have been cool. but screaming and pounding away- unrealistic to the max. -
We get MORE questions instead! Who is Bocaj? Is Jacob dead? Locke is REALLY dead? (NOOOOOOO!!!!) Who broke the ashe? Who are the Ajiras? Did they change the past? Is Juliet and Sayid dead?
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Well, rather that wait till next year, let's try and sort through some things while they are fresh in our minds.
- I'm thinking the guy at the beginning of the show who was talking to Jacob is evil. As in ULTIMATE evil. He was dressed in Black. And Jacob, dressed in white, is Good.
- While the bad guy spent his entire existence looking for the "loophole", Jacob spent his life making sure that the castaways did exactly what they were supposed to, to make it to the island. Jacob was acting as an insurance policy to make sure "Whatever happened-happened".
-If you translate Alpert's Spanish, "He who will save us all" lies within the shadow of the statue.
-I'm thinking dead Locke in the Box, laying dead within the shadow of the statue is what Richard meant.
-Speaking of Richard, or Ricardo as Elana called him, I believe he arrived on that ship at the beginning of the show. After all, he doesn't age right? (a gift from Jacob? Eternal Youth?)
- The other LOCKE has to be the guy from the beginning, taking a human form, as we've seen him do many time over the years. As Ecko's brother, Jack's dad too maybe.
-I also think the evil guys true form is that of the smoke monster. Remeber the painting on the wall of the Statue (representing Jacob) battling with the smoke monster (representing the evil man).
-Whoever this evil guy is, it appears he used Locke to get what he wants, manipulate people, especially Ben, into killing Jacob. Is that how he found the Loophole?
-It appears Richard and Eliana are truly "The Good Guys", battling with Jacob against this man. It also appears the castaways, and even Ben Linus got stuck in the middle.
-There will probably be a ton of Jacob flash back's next year. How long has he been on the island? Why is he fighting this evil man?
-In closing, I don't think Jack's bomb prevented a thing. I thing it actually caused all the events to happen.
- Next season will most likely begin right where it all began, with the plane crashing on that island, only instead of waiting six seasons for answers, we'll only have to wait for one.
As I said yesterday, see you in January.
They are coming.
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That's what Locke said he saw in Season 1. But since then, all he and we have seen is the black smoke. I really don't think its evil or in Bocaj's control.
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Because in the recap show, when they showed Sayid shoot him, Damon and Carlton commented "you could conclude that that's where he lost his ability to trust people".
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But I think that Lost's ending could be the same in that it should frame all of the preceding events in some way. It may not be a huge twist, but it should allow you to go back and watch the series and say, "A-ha! I get it now, this is where it was all leading."
I don't need some crazy twist, but I do desire some general satisfaction out of some of the answers to this years-long mystery. If it's just God v. Satan, then I'm going to be pretty disappointed in the series in general. -
Choose the Red book...the blue book....the red book.....the blue book... if I recall, you pick the white book and win the game? All I remember is laughing my ass off at those brothers' voices.
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with claire?
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Getting a Terry Pratchet vibe in this episode...
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A paradox is only ONE potential issue with or outcome of time travel. You've also got....
- The idea that 2 bodies can't occupy the same space. However, unless you actually teleport INTO your past or future self, you're not really occupying the same space. No real paradox there. Even if you did manage to have the 2 bodies overlap, the human body is 99% empty space. The odds of an actual paradox are super slim thanks to the uncertainty principle.
- There's also the Multiple Worlds theory. Of course you can change the past. However, the moment you do, you automatically create a splinter reality. That's the Back to the Future version of time travel. So, in essence, you DID change the past, but now it's impossible to return to your future unless you go back before the change and leave from there.
Personally, I have a hard time in believing that the Grandfather Paradox prevents changes to the past. That almost assumes predestination, at least to the extent that past events cannot be changed - from the perspective of a future time traveler. In that case.... Time travel sucks. Why go into the past if all you can do is watch. For that, you may as watch home movies on IMax. -
Yes. I'm of the exact same feeling as you are. Not completely disappointed in the series as a whole, and will reserve final judgment until the series finale. I just have this bad feeling, ya know? That's gonna be a feat of writing to pull of a satisfactory ending. Here's hoping for the best.
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In season 1, Walt had a vision of Locke with one white eye and one black. Widmore said that there was a war coming and Locke had to be there to make sure the right side won. I think Jacob is gone from that body after Ben's attack and he will now possess the body of Locke that was brought in by his shadow of the statue followers. So, next year there will be two Lockes possessed by the two angels/demons/gods. Since episode 4, The Walkabout, in season one I have been so impressed with Locke's character that I renamed him The Man and he was the main reason I have loved this show so much for 5 years. Unfortunately, The Man is dead and even though the actor will probably be playing 2 roles next year, it is not what I wanted for that character and I am extremely dissapointed.
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Good episode, started strong stayed that way. Still, I'm pretty fucking sick of that whole "the person you had a brush with in the past is a Significant Person" that the writers keep trotting out. If this show went for 10 more seasons, literally everyone Jack ever encountered would have some mystical significance.
Jack: I'd like an ice cream cone please!
Anubis: Here you go son.
Jack: Now I want to ride the rollercoaster!
Megatron: Sorry son, you must be this tall to ride. -
..they were fucking hard as shit.
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God I really hope not.
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May 13, 2009 11:01:04 PM CDT
Thanks, Zom-bot.com that killed the Juliet scene for me as well!
by hollywoodhellraiser
They had one of the best emotional scene in the finale and they kinda blew it!
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or can he? i mean, locke does go away when sun and the pilot are in the room with Christian when he tells them that their in 1977....so who knows
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He doesn't remember it happening, but I bet subconsciously, that's where his trust issues start.
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definitely seemed to be about good and evil. But it's been so long ago and the show's been so scientific that I forgot about all the black and white stuff and thinking Aaron was the anti-Christ, etc. If they're making mirror seasons and season 6 is supposed to be like season 1 it makes sense that it will be about good and evil again. And Claire is supposed to be coming back right? Hmm...
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My answer: To find out if history was recorded correctly. Sure, you can't change the past, but what if you find out that the past didn't actually happen the way history records it. You could profit from that knowledge, even if you cannot change the history books.
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Does that mean some of the cast NEVER go back to 2007? Were Hurley and Sayid still on the Beach when the nuke went off or were they in the van? I can't remember?
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He seemed to act like Locke... knowing who everyone was, having Locke's memories... Do we think he's like a Cylon? He thinks he's Locke but he's really possessed?
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certain that the white light was actually the bomb going off, and not just the energy under the Swan being released?
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I googled Ille qui nos omnes servabit and a latin scholar insists it’s “He who will save all of us," adding that "Nos omnes is objective, servabit is third person singular.” As for Locke: I always wondered if or when that actor would be able to return to his “The Stepfather 1, 2 and 3” villain roots that I remember him most by, so now he'll have the chance. As for the “loophole”: I always thought that anyone working for the island was not able to do anything unless so ordered by someone else. Ben could not kill Charles Widmore. Richard seemingly is everyone’s gopher bitch on command. If they’re asked they do it and if they want it to happen well tough shit. One more thought: if dead is dead, then every person we’ve seen on this island who is dead has been this Faux Locke guy. The guy trying to get Hurley to kill himself, Eko’s brother who seemed friendly then basically told Eko to F.O.; Faux Locke telling Richard to tell Real Locke he must die, Faux (!) Christian Shepherd telling Real Locke again, yep, he has to die, and so on. Yikes! That’s what I get out of it anyway. Everything else is just conjecture. For one thing: maybe this is where Desmond is needed by the island again, where they did indeed do something to the timeline though Desmond, who is "special" according to Dan Faraday, is probably is the only person who realizes something’s fracked up. That’s theory #1. Theory number two is that “they are coming” means that Jack Kate Sayid Miles Hurley and the gang are coming back to the present though not as you once knew them. Maybe they turn into green giants when pissed or something though they just got zapped with radiation and in any comic book story if you survive radiation you’re a total bad ass. Third thing: I am soooo glad that the alternate faux spoiler I read was bullocks; you know, the one where a "stage hand" insisted they saw Locke beat up someone to become leader and out came 70 year old Kate, Jack, Jin, etc. Oddly enough; yes, that would’ve sucked worse than a nuclear bomb detonation. Oh and I think it’s pretty official that Rose and Bernard are the two “Adam and Eve” bodies in the cave because everybody else was at the hatch area. That's it for me until I rest and let it all sink in.
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I think it's pretty obvious that he's "The Deceiver".
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are people who are deserving of Paradise. The Island is Paradise. Everyone else is still being tested, including Ben.
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That arrogant fuckhead. Though I was glad to see Phil get the fucking life stabbed outta him.
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Yeah, you're right. But I don't think they would make it that simple anyway. I'm just at a point, like the characters, where I take so many properties of the island for granted that I'm not even particularly interested anymore in where those properties derive from. And I'm pretty sure Darlton know where they're heading. I just think they got tripped up in the middle (see: nikki and paolo)
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...logical character motivation goes out the window?
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no, we're not. but then again, I'm not sure who I am anymore.
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Ranging from "WHAT?!?!" to "WHAT THE FUCK?!?!" and "OH SHIT!" Yeah, I was thinking all that at the same time. And then I got a very horrible feeling of dread.
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Locke v. Locke would be so very awesome.
I've really enjoyed the past season and which they had gotten here sooner, and saved the filler for now - then the next season could have been Jack kicking ass in Ancient Egypt and Locke battling himself, and just more creatively insane fun for a season, before reigning it back in for the final season. Tailies were boring, time jumping insanity was fun while it lasted.
If they could have gotten the version of Grant Morrison who wrote All Star Superman (who might also be the same version that wrote Animal Man) to write the next season of Lost, I would have given them that extra season of insanity, just so they could have fun with all of this. -
Thanks for the Greek lesson. But I disagree w/ you about your "view" on the time-travel thing. The show is obviously in the producers/creators hands. I think there is a good chance Jack and Company change stuff (who knows how much). The best clues for this is the "white light" and how Richard said he saw them die and from what we saw Richard was no where near them at the time of the "incident". We'll see. But the producers/creators can show us whatever and whenever so you can't really discuss time-travel theories based on what they "show us".
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http://i40.tinypic.com/2md52ef.jpg I don't know who did it. But it amused and confused me in such a strange way. LOL
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Right? Am I right? No, wait, purgatory. Definitely purgatory.
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WHICH would have been nice if I hadn't made so many typos tonight. Sausage fingers.
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the story of Jacob and Esau.
and it is excellent. -
would, without a doubt, be jumping the shark. or should i say, nuke the fridge.
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So Jacob is a Christ like figure?
Is the other with him, who ened up being a fake Locke Legion?
Was the ship they were looking at the Black whatchyamacallit (I want to say Pearl but that's not it)
Why did the statue look Eygptian?
Vincent is still alive?
I have to wait till next Jan to find out my answers???!
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So Jacob is a Christ like figure?
Is the other with him, who ened up being a fake Locke Legion?
Was the ship they were looking at the Black whatchyamacallit (I want to say Pearl but that's not it)
Why did the statue look Eygptian?
Vincent is still alive?
I have to wait till next Jan to find out my answers???!
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May 13, 2009 11:12:37 PM CDT
One white stone, one black stone. Jacob wears white, Bocaj black
by d.vader
Previous seasons, LOST ends with "LOST" written in white on a black background. Now it ends with "LOST" written in black on white background. The tide has turned, the balance of power has shifted. Jacob is dead.
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C'mon there has to be a reason for that. Hell Walt should've met Jacob before anyone!
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Sorry folks, nothing to see here but a very dead, very bald corpse.
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And next season we start over. Everyone who dies is alive but Esau must find another way to destroy Jacob where the game doesn't get reset.
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to explain Jacob and Esau. Saying they're angels and demons, good vs. evil, smoke monsters, etc, isn't grounded on science - which the producers have state that EVERYTHING can be explained with science.
God forbid they pull a Battlestar Galactica on us. -
but what the CAUSE of the time travel still eludes us.
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I love you, LOST.
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"Faux Locke telling Richard to tell Real Locke he must die". Oh man. I could not figure that out after last episode. That scene was bugging the hell out of me. Wow. That just messes everything up doesn't it? Holy moley. How long has Faux Locke been at work? We're probably gonna have to rewatch all the episodes looking for Faux Locke.
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I want good Locke back, ready to lead everyone to salvation! Damn you Ben!
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WOOO BOY, if you're expecting a scientific explanation out of this, well, good luck to ya.
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well...maybe not so crudely, but although it seemed she was doomed from the start with her V pilot, I had this lingering feeling Hurley was the death (the only other red shirt). Oh well. Perhaps the ghostly knockers of Juliet will dissolve into next season.
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you would of had a fucking blast at catholic school.
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The term is now "Nuke the Swan."
Locke v. Locke isn't as good an idea for the final season, butany other time, I would enjoy it very much, for at least 3-6 episodes. -
No FUCKING way can Desmond be gone! If so, I'm crying foul. They've been setting him up since he was introduced as the lynchpin to this whole affair. HE'S the special one, remember? I think he has to return. Penny? Not so sure. Didn't I see her as a character in the ad for one of those new fall shows? Anyhoo..
While I'm on the subject, I agree with whomever said
a- Jacob is NOT dead (com'on, the guy is ageless, can resurect people and speaks any language he pleases, but a knife and a little fire kill him? Nope, don't buy it.
b- We will get Locke v Locke action next year. Somehow Jabob will either revive the real Locke, or he'll transfer into Lockes carcuss. Didn't you see how freaked Evil Locke was when Jacob said "They're coming"? I think he was refering to "the good guys". Which means (da da da DA) that if THEY'RE good, so is Charles Widmore??? Shit, I need a valium. -
Not an evil vessel!
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and i think that'll solve the jack/locke dilemma.
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But regardless, next season starts it all over again with Esau trying to find a way to break out of the time loop and kill Jacob once and for all. The bomb triggered the event and reset the events of Lost.
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So the loophole is that Esau couldn't kill Jacob directly had to get a normal to do it. And because Jacob didn't put up a fight was because he couldn't or wouldn't put up a fight. But then if we assume Esau and Jacob are the same type of being, then couldn't the Losties just kill Esau/Locke without him fighting back?
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..his return to the island. Ilana said that they found his body in the cargo hold of the plane. And Claires message of Dont you dare bring him back here refering to Locke just really fucking confuses me.
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May 13, 2009 11:19:57 PM CDT
And please, get off the "Everything explained by science" kick
by d.vader
Let. It. GO.
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but it's entertaining as FUCK.
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May 13, 2009 11:20:32 PM CDT
@Phil Connors...very poor understanding..of the big picture.
by macfaux
"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
There is a common mis-understanding that the notion of God is only about churches and spaghetti monsters.
God is Science and Science is God. Albert Einstein and the guy at LAX in the sheet with the flowers who smelled of bean curd...said so. -
that explains why she was hanging out in the cabin.
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and Smokey can only appear as one person at a time... Then the Claire in Jacob's cabin with Christian... is still alive.
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my hair is curly.
replace the c with an h.
hurley.
suck it. -
WHO GIVES A FUCK IF IT CAN'T BE EXPLAINED BY "SCIENCE"??? It's a great show. If they bring in a little celestial stuff just fucking enjoy it and quit triping! ABC isn't questioning your agnostic beliefs but making God and Satan characters in a friggin TV show. (IF that is indeed who they are!)
My gracious, haters.PLEASE get over yourselves!
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"You were back at on the Island on a beach. And all these people were standing around you. They wanted to hurt you, John." Is this what happens next? When he steps out of the statue's foot?
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"They" are the other aliens!
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desmond was special, locke was special. and no fucking payoffs? this is bullshit.
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to "what lies under the shadow of the statue"?.... because i think it might be a clue as to what the Others believe that Locke really is.
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They are something else. The Walking Dead as manipulated by Bocaj. That's why we NEVER saw Smokey turn into Alex. Seriously, why the fuck would Smokey go back into his hole, only to just magically "teleport" and reappear behind him as Alex? We've NEVER seen Smokey just disappear or teleport before. So its my belief that the Manipulated dead are NOT Smokey.
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So Bocaj/Esau finally killed jacob, but Juliet setting off the nuke negates his death? Were the "it's a time loop" people right? Did Jacob know this was going to happen and it was his failsafe?
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but Jimmy said he didn't watch the episode yet. I was hoping he'd watched it so he could ask decent questions.
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Up until now, everything has been scientific. But in the final season, after the Bizarro "Lost" logo that closes out this episode, the show turns a corner and goes all religulous on us.
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at this point, i dont want everything to be explained easily by science, i want the final season to go bat shit insane and go out in epic or even biblical proportions if need be, thats the only thing that will be satisfying...god/devil, jacob/esau, 2 gay aliens having a lovers quarrel, i dont care just make it crazy
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I don't have any problems with Juliet at the end - The bomb always went off in '77, and the island healed her enough for that to happen.
I wonder who the 'principal cast' will be for S6 - Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Sun, Jin, 'Locke', Claire, Ben, Miles are assumed (right?). I can't help but wonder just how much screen time Claire, Des, the 3 Widmores, Frank, Richard, Ilana, and the chronic masturbator from Choke will have, considering there will be no S7 to fall back on... -
can anyone transpose the begininig dialogue between jacob and the other dude and POST IT HERE?
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retarded
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That's a resolution I would prefer to this whole The Stand rip-off.
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Obviously the producers can show us whatever they want, and they can tell their stories any way they want, even if it doesn't make sense to me or I don't agree with their logic.
But my point is this: Locke and Richard in 2007 are living 30 years in the future from Jack and Sawyer. Richard Alpert remembers being there with them, there's photos of them--this future that we're watching is THE FUTURE of the 1977 we're witnessing alongside the 2007 scenes. Because none of the characters are traveling through time anymore, nothing that Jack can do can alter the version of the 2007 future that we're watching.
If we weren't also watching the Locke 2007 scenes, I wouldn't have this argument. There's nothing from Jack's point of view that makes his plan impossible (except for the fact that it would create a grandfather paradox style problem, but that's a whole different story, and not what I'm trying to argue now).
The reason that we're tricked into believing that Jack might be able to change the future--which would somehow magically make Locke and Sun and everybody disappear--is because the episodes are being presented with the 2007 timeline intercut with the 1977 timeline. That causes us to interpret these storylines as somehow happening at the same time--as if they were in different places instead of different times. We imagine that, from Sun's point of view, Jin is stuck in 1977 "right now", for example. But there's no logical reason to view the mechanics of it that way. All this Jack/Sawyer/Kate/bomb stuff *is* the past that leads to the 2007 we've been seeing. If it weren't, this 2007 with Locke back on the island (and with Jack in the historical record as having been there in 1977) would never have existed. -
"POOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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I was just thinking about that first dialogue (or argument, rather) between Jacob and Esau. They weren't just talking about the people that come to the island. They were talking about humanity in general. Esau sees humanity as repeating an endless cycle of bloodshed (see: end of episode) while Jacob recognizes the progress we make towards becoming a better people after every major conflict. I think Esau drew up all the lists of the righteous so that he can cleanse the world of evil while Jacob respects our right to choose. So it's not really as cut-and-dry as good vs. evil. It's what to do with a world filled with sin and pain and death and fear and corruption, etc., etc.
However, we see throughout the episode Jacob putting his pieces into place. I think he anticipated his own demise, but he compensated for that. The rest of Lost will find the losties and others banding together to overthrow Esau. -
May 13, 2009 11:27:17 PM CDT
And the irony of the God storyline haters...hmmph. Too funny.
by macfaux
Seems someone thought of that way back when:
Malachi 1 - A Message. God's Word to Israel through Malachi:God said, "I love you." You replied, "Really? How have you loved us?" "Look at history" (this is God's answer). "Look at how differently I've treated you, Jacob, from Esau: I loved Jacob and hated Esau. I reduced pretentious Esau to a molehill, turned his whole country into a ghost town."
"Why doesn't one of you just shut the Temple doors and lock them? Then none of you can get in and play at religion with this silly, empty-headed worship. I am not pleased. The God-of-the-Angel-Armies is not pleased. And I don't want any more of this so-called worship!
Instead of honoring me, you profane me. You profane me when you say, 'Worship is not important, and what we bring to worship is of no account,' and when you say, 'I'm bored—this doesn't do anything for me.' You act so superior, sticking your noses in the air—act superior to me, God-of-the-Angel-Armies! And when you do offer something to me, it's a hand-me-down, or broken, or useless. Do you think I'm going to accept it? This is DARLTON speaking to you!
I may have misremembered that last part... -
that is all.
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May 13, 2009 11:27:38 PM CDT
I'm telling you the story starts right back over again.
by castlemonster
That's why Jacob wasn't worried about being killed. He set it up so that the others would bring the bomb to the drill site and reset the game with the detonation.
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Someone has to have mentioned this before, but could Lost be a modern retelling of Milton's Paradise Lost? If the whole thing is a pseudo Biblical allegory, then the island would be the garden of Eden, the smoke monster is the serpent and Bocaj isn't Bocaj, he's Esau (Brother of Jacob) and/or Lucifer. A theory I've had for several seasons is that Richard is the wandering Jew from European folklore. He was a man who taunted Christ on the way to the cross until Jesus turned around and said "All right, I'll hurry up, but you'll still be here when I return." This would explain Richard's immortality. Most events on the show have no one to one coorelation with Biblcal myth, but the basic themes of familial good vs. evil are certainly present, and after tonights episode, I am convinced that Abrams (a shortening of Abraham's - hint hint) has something more literary in mind than a simple sci-fi fable.
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The statue was holding an ankh in each hand, which was the Egyptian symbol for Eternal Life.
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So when the producers say every mystery can be explained with science, and then comes around at the end saying God IS science, that somehow is acceptable to you?
Don't get me wrong, I know what you're talking about, it's just that the producers DID say they can explain everything, including the smoke monster, with science.
If they're coming at me with the yin and the Yang, the I Ching, God and the Devil, yada yada as their version of science, rest assured there will be A LOT of disappointed people. -
Lock is probably just dead. Even Richard said that he went back to the main land three seperate times to "interview" Locke and never found anything special about him. His corpse was found in the coffin on the plane where it was all along. When Bocaj/Esau/Faux Locke was in the statue of Tawaret at the end of the episode, Jacob seemed to know that it was not John Locke standing there (refering to ther opening scene comments), thus, John Locke is dead.
Also, alot of these theorys that are being posted are great reads, but one key character in the LOST story is being left out and is bound to make an impact next season, Aaron. Based on what we know fron the psychic in season 1, Aaron could end up being someone/something to be feard.
How do you think Aaron will fit in and change the story next season? -
YES!
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...to keep us wasting time for the summer? That's too bad.
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May 13, 2009 11:30:43 PM CDT
that probably could have been more eloquent (read: coherent)
by manicfanatic
but I'm drunk. So deal with it.
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Or was this allllllll setup because there was no other time in which Christian could visit Locke? If Christian was Bocaj, why tell Locke to move the Island? Why not tell him to kill Jacob?
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The new Star Trek was made by the same creative team. That story allowed that people can alter future events via time travel to the past. Look no further than that. Things will change for the losties come next season. Writers generally stick to the same concepts in their writing. Peace.
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My take is the loophole is moving the island. Esau masquerading as Christian in season 4 told John to move the island. That set off a series of events that led to Jacob's death including:
1.) Ben being banished from the island. I am guessing that Ben being the banished leader returning was the only one who could kill Jacob.
2.) Esau masquerading as John tricked Richard into telling John that he had to bring everyone back including Ben and that he had to die to get them back (allowing Esau to pretend to be John on their return). Also, this trick made Richard trust John enough to bring John to Jacob and make Ben hate Jacob for not being the chosen one. -
Aaron turns out to be the reincarnation of someone important, like Jacob, or maybe Neo!
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Yay! In that case, Greatest show ever in the fucking world!
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I hope you're joking.
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Two Sides..One Light. One Dark.
A certain sly nod in Jacob offering Esau some fish. Ans Esau answering he already ate...as the last time Jacob offered Esau some food...it didn't work out to well for Esau. -
Let's hope Ms. Mitchell's pilot gets picked up, because that what she was hoping all the way down.
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well, the biblical Aaron was a descendant of Jacob. Maybe he's the heir apparent. But then what does that imply about the family Shepherd?
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WHERE THE FUCK IS WALT?
Seriously, I used to think he was the key to this whole thing.
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I really did. Nice to see that Rose and Bernard (and Vincent) had a three year happy ending while everyone else was thrashing about.
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SO, he leaves the island and involves himself in small moments in the lives of the people on the island, but he TELLS Hurley which plane to get one. Or, with Locke, a big moment. WHY? I didn't see a lot of point to that shit given that these folks didn't seem to have any real bearing on Locke and Ben going to the foot. Who the fuck lives in a foot?
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I was wondering why the whole dead/alive Locke thing seemed familiar. Lost made "Esau" The First Evil from Buffy. Both could only seemingly take the form of dead people or some demonic thing, smoke monster in the case of Lost.
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May 13, 2009 11:38:37 PM CDT
Jacob is the middle name of Jeffrey Jacob Abrams (J.J. Abrams).
by el borak
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Fucking SUCKS by the way.
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According to the Jewish teachings in the Midrash, the ladder signified the exiles which the Jewish people would suffer before the coming of the Messiah. The top step on the ladder is supposedly guarded by a vision of Esau and represents Edom which God assures Jacob will be brought down at the End of Days.
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Think about it- the bomb going off is what stops all the electromagnetic discharge. Its what allows DHARMA to regain control and institute the button pushing. Radzinsky, you're a douche.
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Star trek was written by the writers of the shitty Transformers movie, and directed by JJ Abrams, who has nothing to do with Lost other than directing the pilot and coming up with an initial, vague, "scripted survivor" outline for the series concept. I don't know why people keep bringing up his name with Lost.
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Because he can obviously use it in the Pearl Station video (which describes the Swan and was thus a new video made after the Incident).
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May 13, 2009 11:42:32 PM CDT
Ben, Give yourself to the Dark Side!!! And know the full power..
by macfaux
Of this fully operational battle island!
You have to love the whole empire strikes back vibe that has been going on...Ben folded. Gave into the hate which of course leads to the Dark Side. Sad. Become the Dark Apprentice. Bery Bery niiiice.
When this show ends...it will POOM! to three writers getting tossed off Skywalker Ranch in the 90's, giving George Lucas the finger as the yell:
"Midichlorians? Really? Mother Frakkin midi...you frakkin crate of generic douche! You and your Jar Jar can kiss my Rebel Ass!" -
On watching the ending again, I'm getting the horrifying impression that there is seemingly no hint whatsoever of what's to come next season. I think that these debates are going to give one another headaches, and without some proper casting news/general info on season 6 this is going to be the longest, most arduous wait in the history of the show.
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Was that this was a remake of one of my favorite episodes.In Expose they had minor characters we hardly knew who hadn't been in the first season original cast and retold multiple scenes from their point of view, showing how they had witnessed or taken part in all sorts of important momentsm while persuing their own agenda. and then they died.And in "The Incident" they had a minor character we'd barely ever seen and who hadn't been part of the original first season cast, retold several key events which he had seen or participated in while pursuing his own agenda, and then killed him.In other words, Darlton took one of their most hated episodes, the one everyone decried as "filler" and recycled it for the season finale, to prove that it works. JACOB is the New Nikki and Paulo!
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Any thoughts on what Jacob meant when he said that to Ben? Why did he think Ben was so unworthy? And had any "leader" ever seen Jacob before? Or were they just getting notes from Richard?
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But almost as funny is that mexican Coke has crept into this TB after bubbling up in the previous week. anyone in the US who hasn't tried a coca-cola produced in Mexico needs to try one, Stat!
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I thought for sure we'd see. a. Charlie tell Hurley to come back to the Island and to bring a guitar and b. Claire in Jacob/Bocaj's shack. Or something. And Desmond- the Island isn't through with you. So how on earth will you come back now? Why would you come back now?
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...in the bible jacobs last son was named Benjamin and the mother died. Coincidence?
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that they answered the question of who dies with Juliet and Sayid (probably) and Locke (all along) and, oh yeah, everyone else on the island when the bomb went off. But we know that Chang, Radzinsky and Richard Alpert survived, so maybe some of the other characters did too?
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true! except those two hadn't been built up for two seasons before they got their 15 minutes and burial in the sand.
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jump on the Esau bandwagon. Everyone else is doing it!
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I wonder is anyone will come up with any sort of accurate guess as to how the sixth season begins?
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Because "Coke adds Life" was translated as "Coke brings you back to life" and people were pouring it on the graves of their relatives.
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Its just weird that Bocaj would need a dead body on the Island in order to... pretend to be that person? He's not inhabiting Locke's body, he just looks like Locke. That's a bit confusing. But I hope we get the real Locke back in S6. Or a Jacob controlled one.
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Coincidence? In Lost?!
C'mon, we're 5 seasons in. You can't seriously be asking that. -
....
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You know when that person was all wrapped up in the hospital room? Well only one eye was sticking out and I thought it was going to be Mikhail. bummer.
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if I've learned anything from Lost it's that there's no such thing.
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that jacob brought locke to life after being thrown out of the window? he appears lifeless until literally jacob touches him.
is it possible he could revive locke one more time? -
Was that his name back in Season 1?
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So the Black Rock was an earlier version of 815? Jacob got all that crew on the boat, got it to land on the island, and attempted to prove that free will does not always lead to total destruction. That experiment with Black Rock failed, so he is trying again with 815. Awesome that next season will be hopefully a lot about the island mythology and the game these two are playing.
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Remember the heiroglyphics in Ben's judgment episode where he confronts smoky, theres an image depicting tawaret(the same deity of the statue) battling a serpent.
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If Locke is Esau, and he's at war with Jacob, then who the hell is Enkidu and Gilgamesh?? Don't forget that crossword shit!
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Who were the people shooting at Sawyer, Locke, Juliet, and the freighter dudes when they were in the rafts? Hope to know in 9 months.
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I prefer Bocaj! But I'll prob go with Esau eventually. I just don't think Esau was ever supposed to be Jacob's evil opposite like Bocaj seems to be.
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Man, I love the AICN talkback loonies. with an hour recap handing out hard knowledge and filling in gaps in the story in neat chronological order, then two hours of total mind twisting awesomeness, and everyone wants to talk about some character who had a couple minutes of screen time, referring to him by a name that some talkbacker made up for him? Five years in and suddenly the whole flippen show is all about Seesaw? Really? No one wants to talk about Lost or the episode we just saw, they all want to get in on some gang fan fic in which the show turns out to be a chess game between a spiritual entity and his antagonist?Hey, whatever. Have fun. Seems odd to me that you wouldn't want to discuss Lost instead.
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Four years ago I said they'd institute time travel as it would be the only way to solve all the continuity errors their half assed storytelling had created. Tonight it was blatantly obvious Juliet was going to die so that there could be a triangle between sawyer kate and jack for the final season. Now we're having yet again apocryphal characters introduced at the last minute who interject themselves in profound ways in everyone's life - cause that's the only way they can reasonably explain all this interconectedness. I guarantee you that the "angels are amongst us" ending of BSG is going to make Lost's "it's all supernatural mysticism and you have to embrace it" inevitable ending look like the ending to a Touched by an Angel episode. This show has become a convoluted clusterfuck of staggering proportions where everything is telegraphed only to the needs of writing as opposed to anything organic or honest to the characters. Jack wants to nuke an entire island because he missed out on Kate? Juliet wants to help then not help but then help cause Sawyer obviously wants to shove manjuice in Kate's nostrils? Everyone thinks they need to stop the incident by sitting around a van until Miles says they maybe are the incident and then they help? WTF? Lazy, sloppy, unimaginative. I still think season one and two of this show were tremendous, but this is just garbage. And the ending... Oh please. Not one single mystery has been solved. This show has turned into soap operatics with tons of gun cocking and "we don't have time for that now" and a completely ridiculous amount of overplotting.
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the only thing I can think of is the guy jack's wife was "cheating" with from her school. I might be forgetting, but I'm pretty sure that guy played no further role in the series, if we even found out who he was. And by now we know HE isn't Jacob. I think...
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That was not Tawaret fighting a serpent. It was Anubis (seemingly) calling forth Smokey. To judge the souls of the dead, I'm guessing. Which is what Anubis did.
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Who said that? No, seriously..Am I already pissed after one drink
(yeah, how would that happen)..or did not some scientist of recent passing mention that?
My obtuse and verbose point..on the fringe of science...the undiscovered country...for the passionate explorerAlll Science ventures past the edge of reason, beyond the point on the map where it says 'here be monsters' into faith...Ask the folks who are way out there on the raggedy edge studying the quantum...the string...the nature of the human perceived universe.
We had folk POOM (sidebar- POOM is going to make into the lexicon and dictionary, I swear it) back to 1977. Outside of notions of character mental illness and such...it is unexplainable Science.
And I don't mind one bit if TPTB conjure up the nature of fools to believe what they are told. Lie. If it means the Prestige is an Elephant magically appearing across the room.
POOM! -
I'll check back tomorrow to see how the discussion is going...
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That link was frickin' hilarious.
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Lots of gun cocking, even more cocking of guns, spinal surgeons acting like SAS commandos, characters cocking guns at each other, ridiculously ominous vague statements that imply no definitive meaning with spooky music undertones, hiking through the jungle, and tons of "we don't have time for that now". And I fucking guarantee that you will never be told why the island has electromagnetic properties, why Walt had powers, what the numbers meant, why Aaron must not be raised by another, who recorded the numbers, what the sickness was, etc. There's fifteen episodes left and there's just far too much love triangle and gun cocking and ridiculous good vs evil as represented by c list actors who exude the strength and charisma of investment bankers. I mean seriously, your Egyptian god is a dude who looks like he belongs in a Michelob Light commercial?
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That original cliffhanger had us waiting "all summer" to find out what happened to him. Then we didn't see him again until the very end of the season. And then we didn't see him again for a quick second in the window. Then we thought he'd come back when he told Locke he had work to do. And then we saw the tiny conversations he had with Locke and Hurley. They sure know how to build something up and then drop it like it's hot. I actually thought early on with the whole black and white thing, and stealing babies thing, that Walt and Claire's baby would fight the good vs. evil battle for the island. Ha. I totally forgot that. Thanks for reminding me.
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How quickly we have forgotten. He's in on this shit, too. Desmond...is the constant!
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I have none. It's like quantum theory at this point, plotting out the various points where each plot point can end up. Does Jacob live, is Locke truly evil, is the past changed (negating this all), does Deadwood fellow return, do they get back on the plane, does the island exist anymore? Much like Jacob's tapestry, there are simply too many things to go on in order to formulate any kind of theory for next season.
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After being shot and strangled by him, I KNEW that there was no way JOHN LOCKE would hand Benjamin Linus a knife and then turn his back on him... and it turned out, Locke didn't.
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When people leave the island through the well, they wound up in the middle east.
Adam & Eve cast out of eden and they wound up in the middle east. -
we're speculating on what happens next, which is at least 50% of the fun of watching lost
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Ben lost his patience, lost his faith. And his lack of faith is what killed Jacob. Didn't Nietzsche says God is Dead?
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oh god...let it be so
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... that other guy that everyone is calling Esau could be Aaron. He may very well be the one that was in communication with Christian and Claire in the cabin and this would also explain why Claire told Kate not to bring him back to the island. But who really knows at this point. What an amazing show! Also, in the young Juliet scene, there is a book on the table titled "Mysteries of Ancient America." That might be a clue!?!
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That's right. I was thinking young Tom meant young Mr. Friendly. poop.
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Really? 4 years later? hmmph? howse that taste? Is it like MRE's..always better with some Tabasco?
Whingee wee fella..is the Science not hmm..hard enough for you? I guess it can't be understood as your are to 'un-smart' to stop eating at the first moment you realized you were eating..well...as you type. Bullshit.
"The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks...Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down..."
"Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame; you will be destroyed forever..."
"The house of Jacob will be a fire and the house of Joseph a flame; the house of Esau will be stubble, and they will set it on fire and consume it. There will be no survivors from the house of Esau."
You are so consumed with self and fear of ..well...never mind..you miss the sublime beauty of the simple consideration that Bilbity stuff is some of the best Literature ever put forward...silly and sad.
Steam punk my ass...where do you think every great writer pirated their tale. It has all been told afore. I suggest you start with some Joseph John Campbell as the original texts seem beyond yee.
Touched by an angel indeed! Did ya not notice..and for you expected but surprisingly not mentioned. Yet. Jacob made of point of laying hands on everyone of the...hmmm, Chosen ones?..cept Juliet. -
As I mentioned about, we know that Richard Alpert, Radzinsky and Pierre Chang all survived the Incident. Which suggest the possibility that some of the other people present on the island in 1977 when the Incident occurred may have also survived.
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FUCK MY LIFE.
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I was surprised when that bit of casting popped up. Excited, but surprised.
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... That we weren't speculating about a few weeks ago. Its like Season 1- what's in the Hatch? Oh well, you won't know until Season 2. Here its, what happens after the Incident? Ah well, you won't know until 2010... Though I do know this- it will be white.
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I want this show more than ever.
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special thanx to Herc for burdening the folks who'll be retuning to this talkback for the next eight months with a string of indecipherable hieroglyphics for a title. I'm glad I bookmarked "the talk back formerly known as 'Good for Jack'" while I had the chance.Personally, I would have gone with "It's a very nice foot, Richard..."
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I mean, out of everything to choose from, he picks some fucking Korean text which probably didn't appear anywhere in the show? WTF, Herc?
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C'mon, someone on this talkback can read korean.
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It says: "His Korean is excellent."
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Wow, are you a sad, angry little man. The typical archetype of someone who claims to hate something yet continues to watch it simply so he can bitch about it. If you don't like the show or where it's gone, don't fucking watch it and then act all high and mighty and go on diatribes how much better you consider yourself than the show. That's really all you're doing.
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Too beat to go into detail. Maybe later. :-D
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considering the purge happened in 1992? and dharmaville appeared fully populated, and all the bodies in the grave
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Jacob is finally introduced and apparently killed in one episode. Can a knife kill someone with as many undefined supernatural qualities as Jacob? His story was interesting, but left us with too many questions that have little to no context to even consider them. The bomb going off with no aftermath shown whatsoever was a replay of the first season's hatch non-reveal. That particular plotline did continue spectacularly, so hopefully this one will as well. It was still better than most television, but as a Lost episode, it was pretty unsatisfying, leaving us with no context to even guess what will happen. The one small parallell is between the smoke monster setting up the circumstances under which Jacob could be killed (?) and the guy at the beginning saying he would find a loophole. It might be a little late in the series to be setting up another epic battle other than the one between Ben and Widmore, but my faith in the series has been rewarded before. We're just left in an awkward place at the moment.
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Very emotional. It was heartbreaking to see her fall down that well after all the yelling and the screaming and the holding on and the "I love you"s. Sniff.
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About how Jacob touched everyone but Li'l Juliet. And, as mentioned above, he conned or manipulated everyone but Hurley. Also, he exacted promises from Li'l Katie and Li'l James - both of which they broke. And he told John Locke that he would be all right when, in fact, Locke wound up crippled. Also, his visit with Ilyana was different than any of the others, being a flashback reference to something we had no fame of reference to. So I'll say this about Jacob, he was unpredictable. After the first couple (Katie and James) I thought they were going to be formulaic, and they turned out to be anything but that.Though a flashback to "the time Jack almost didn't get his candy bar" - WTF?
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Well, if the incident were in actuality the detonation of a hydrogen bomb, then the blast radius would be enough to destroy the island, much less kill everyone on it...seriously, what was Jack thinking?
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woops.
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May 14, 2009 12:31:09 AM CDT
I guarantee that we're not the only ones calling him Esau.
by royston lodge
I bet you dollars-to-donuts that every other chatroom and message board on the Internet is also calling him Esau. It's too obvious a reference to ignore, what with the other old testament hebrew names that are used on the show.
Then again, the religious names (Jacob, Benjamin, Abaddon, Sayid,) are few when compared to the names that are based on Enlightenment and post-enlightenment theorists (Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Burke, Bakunin, Faraday, Carlyle, Rutherford).
Unless I'm missing some other religious names from the show... -
because it's impossible to even guess when or where the season premiere could start. It could start in LA in 2004. It could start in Eden whenever the hell Eden started. It could start with baby Richard. It could start with Jack waking up in the jungle again. Who the hell knows anymore? I mean we can try to figure out what we've watched already, but guessing where they're going? Fuggedaboutit.
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que Rose and Bernard.
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Well said and almost certainly true.
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But I think I'm gonna pass out before then.
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Darlton did say (in a tease to Jeff Jensen) that it would be a very "touching" episode. They did go to a closeup shot of Jacob touching Jack during the candy bar handoff. What promise did Sawyer make and break? There was no promise to Jacob. Jacob gave him a pencil, that's all. Its Sawyer's relative that made him promise not to finish the letter.
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I thought Daniel/Jack wanted to destroy the island in 1977. If there was no island after that then there would be no Desmond on that island to bring the flight down in 2004. If you don't destroy the island I don't see how you can guarantee that the Incident wouldn't still be a fixable incident. What they did would have a more unpredictable outcome right?
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Because in the past we've had more to go on. "Ooooh, the Others are going to do tests on Jack, Kate, and Sawyer!!" Or "Ooooh, they all got off the Island! Now we're going to see how!" "Ah! Now we're gonna see how Ben and Jack are going to get everyone to go BACK to the Island!" Now its "Uhhh, I guess they go back to 2007?" Its the same speculation as last week. The *real* speculation comes from what happens next to Faux-Locke.
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"You had your chance at 3 years of DharmaBliss, now don't Boone, Shannon, Libby, AnaLucia, Michael, Mr Eko, Charlie and Claire deserve their second chance?"...That would have ended it right there.
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I'm not myself religious. And I agree that plotting needs to be organic. But how in the blue hell are any of you fucking whiners whining when that was balls-out amazing? How? How is that possible? I don't have a cogent point at the moment. Sorry. That was fucking amazing and you are a bunch of assholes.
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I forgot it already... but I remember it being quite popular. Not quite "The Da Vinci Code" popular, but you know what I mean.
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to me locke appears "dead" of lifeless after being thrown from the window by his father. immediately upon being touched by jacob he awakens and appears very alert. to me this seems like the most significant encounter jacob had during any flashback.
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Please, guys. Let's focus on the show, not his rants.
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is all im saying, or hoping i guess...
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I guess that'll be the big showdown arena for S6.
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"In the third year...a message came to Daniel..and it was explained in a vision. The message was about a horrible war, and it was true...For three weeks I was in sorrow...Then, on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, I was standing on the banks of a River, when I looked up and saw someone dressed in linen and wearing a solid gold belt ...His body was like a precious stone,...his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming fires, his arms and legs like polished bronze, and his voice like the roar of a crowd."
(Ya see...Hellllllooooo, IRONMAN!..or Jack or Sawyer)
"Although the people who were with me did not see the vision, they became so frightened that they scattered and hid. Only I saw this great vision. I became weak and pale.. stand up and pay close attention... I stood trembling, and it said: Daniel, don't be afraid! ******* has watched you since the first day you humbly asked for understanding, and he has sent me here. Michael, who is one of the strongest came to rescue me...
I have come here to give you another vision about what will happen to your people in the future....
I said, " Sir, this vision has brought me great pain and has drained my strength....do you understand why I have come? Soon I must leave to fight against the...
I will tell you what is written in The Book of Truth. (Faraday's Journal) But first, you must realize that no one except Michael...is on my side." -
Just as he healed Rachel (Juliet's sister) and Young Ben... from the Temple? Hmm. I wonder why Richard didn't just take him to the Foot.
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ok, first of all someone on this talkback called it with MYST....
consequently, very impressed by how the writers distracted us for 5 seasons with character developments and scientific hoopla to divert us from inevitable supernatural elements.
given all the literary tie-ins, hard to believe, even though by no means disappointed by it, that the PREMISE of this show is influenced by a video game series!!
the first 3 to 4 minutes of this episode give it way: two co-creators or brothers (one wearing white and the other the polar opposite black to signify there stance) who are gifted and immortal, shown by how they cannot kill each other by their own hand. Apparently they created or guard this "island world", and are at odds with one another with their ambitions and control of the island.
the so called "loophole' that the evil person/brother finds is most probably the ability to time travel, which gives him the time and patience to guide and manipulate certain mortals to eventually find and kill jacob, which he cannot. In the meantime, since he is superpowerful, this being can "appear' as figures that have already died on the island. (has he been manipulating certain other people like ben and richard? maybe. and is he also personified as the smoke monster? maybe, especially yes if u figure that the smoke monster didn't kill Locke when it faced him bc it might have figured that it needed him to eventually kill jacob.)
So this can in some way seem like it's always been the island and it's apparitions, backed by this evil person, manipulating the oceanic survivors to fight jacob. where does christian stand in this? he might have been controlled by either this evil person or jacob or both for their own means. ultimately, though, jacob might still come out winning as was shown in this episode that he might also travel through time for his own reasons, touching these oceanic individuals so that he might be saved by one of them.
can't explain the specifics of the story, but this could be the supernatural premise, as the supernatural USES science, time travel, as a way to their own devices.
finally, don't think they are using literal religious symbols for this, i.e. biblical, thus the game MYST as a blueprint for an ancient advanced civilization that created the 'island'. -
I was refering to the post at 11:59:29 PM.
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damn good casting. looked JUST like her, freckles and all.
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That adds another biblical name to the soup, since Rachel was the name of Jacob's wife.
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I was just saying that the blast from a WWII hydrogen bomb wouldn't destroy the island. That's all. But if it fucked with the electromagnetism (which I'm sure is the implication), well then all bets are off.
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Everything That Rises Must Converge
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it didn't fucking suck. Honestly, Abrams did a lot of good, then he made Lost.
Thankfully he redeemed himself with the new Trek movie. -
Okay, now that I've calmed down... I know that the more science-fiction leaning folks have been nervous about a "Quantum Leap" effect. That is to say, a great science-fiction show ruined by a left-field supernatural/religious explanation. The thing is, you have no room to complain about Lost doing the same. While Lost has utilized science-fiction tropes and explanations, it has equally relied on mythology and the supernatural. Judeo-Christian myth is woven into nearly all Western storytelling. I'm not religious myself but I can appreciate and enjoy the mythology. In the end, an engaging story is an engaging story. So if Lost IS headed down that path (and it certainly seems to be the case) then what are you complaining about? It's always been a possibility AND it's part of Western culture. And it's not like Darlton are trying to convert you. In summary: get over it.
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May 14, 2009 12:50:09 AM CDT
In Myst you win by choosing neither brother
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
Desmond had it right.
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Famous author. That's what I was thinking.
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Flannery O'Connor's (Mary Flannery O'Connor)...collection of short stories "Everything That Rises Must Converge" ..note 'Revelation' (not what you think)
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get the fuck out of our clubhouse! Nyah!
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What if detonating the bomb is what triggered the event? The energy under the island is released and Desmond ultimately causes the Oceanic to crash all over again. Esau has to break this loop and kill Jacomb before the other aliens arrive. Jacob and Esau are essentially trapped in the same continuum as everyone else but the other aliens aren't, so Esau's time is running out even though the game is starting over again.
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What if Esau has been Christian Shepard all this time, manipulating things he saw fit to get this "loophole" to work?
Holy fuck I think my mind just exploded. -
i mean it fell down the tunnel and didnt explode? no debris falling down the hole sets it off? juliet bashes it with a rock multiple times but does not set it off...until maybe the 3rd of 4th time? i dont buy it, if anything i think the incident sends all the losties who dont belong in 1977 back to the current timeline in which they are sposed to be. the white light has been used all season to represent jumps through time, i think that is significant in interpretation of ending.
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he was Alex.
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May 14, 2009 12:58:50 AM CDT
I don't think it's the use of the supernatural that bugs me.
by royston lodge
I think what bugs me is that for the past five seasons the common theme for the show has been the struggle and tension between faith and reason. From the overt debates on destiny vs. free will between Jack and Locke to the more sublime references like the biblical names vs. the Enlightenment (or "Age of Reason") names.
With this season's finale, the writers have really tipped the balance of power over to the supernatural side, and I think that's what bugs me. This episode threw away all the delicious ambiguity that makes Lost so damned addictive. -
I've had enough of Kate fucking about with Jack and Sawyer. Juliet was a FAR better choice for Sawyer. And Jack, well, he just needs to get over that shit. She's a train-wreck, buddy. Much as I love Evangeline Lilly in the part, I'm tired of her relationship drama. That said, I'll take Lost's soap opera dramatics over those on Grey's Anatomy or Ugly Betty or whatever other soap show you name. (except Desperate Housewives, which is awesome, even if Herc is a douche about it)
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that ending is bulllll shiiiittttt! thanks for not giving us something to hang our hat on for next season. assholes!
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that ending is bulllll shiiiittttt! thanks for not giving us something to hang our hat on for next season. assholes!
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Still can't shake off the Book of Job vibes from the opening, which would presumably put Jacob in the role of Satan ("the adversary") for the cosmic wager (since he basically wants to test humanity and interfere with their lives). The "Philosophical Approach" section of the Job wiki brings up some interesting threads I'll probably be weaving and unweaving in my mind up until 2010: http://tinyurl.com/ogt2oh
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that kicked ass. better than season 1 and 4 finale.
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Your described problem with time travel doesn't hold much water, in my opinion. It hinges on the assumption that both set of events are somehow happening in parallel. While I suppose that's possible, it seems highly unlikely. A mechanic where time travel means things truly happening in parallel is a very specific, concrete, counter-intuitive interpretation of how time travel would work. If they were doing something that unusual and non-standard, they'd have to provide some clues that it was occurring that way, for example, someone special, like Jacob or Christian, in the future time saying that one of the time travelers is currently doing x in the past. It's much more likely they're just interleaving the two stories, just like they always do with flashbacks. If so, your problem really just becomes the basic time paradox issue.
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As much as Jacob seemed to intervene in the LOSTies lives, he still made sure they knew they all had a choice: Hurley could "do whatever" he wanted to do. Ben still had a choice when holding the knife. He could do what Faux-Locke wants, or he could leave. The producers still seem to imply that there is a destiny, that fate does prod the characters along- but they still have a choice as to what to do, which path to take.
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so I could cum inside my own mouth! HUZZAH!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jughead, A two stage thermonuclear bomb, would have destroyed the Island...COMPLETELY. 20 megaton H-bomb. Nuclear Fusion.
The staged fuel, the trigger..the primary..an A-bomb. Nuclear Fission. What Sayid took out, and incorrectly termed 'thermonuclear'..you are right would not.
Interestingly the force capable of confining energy to satisfy the Lawson criterion is gravity. The mass needed so great that gravitational confinement is only found in stars...hmmmph..and needing a mass greater than that of the planet Jupiter would be needed to capture it...
like a big ole electromagnetic anomaly.. -
...And Jacob left it for Hurley -- to give back to Charlie. Something tells me that many of the dead -- characters who died on the island throughout the past 5 seasons -- will return in some form or another (which will also depend on which actors the producers can hire back to appear next season).
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A debate about "Destiny vs. Free Will" isn't the same as a debate about "Supernatural vs. Rational."
After all, Daniel represented science yet his explanation of time travel reinforced the concept of destiny.
My problem with this finale is more about how I think they give too much away by making Jacob and Esau so transparently biblical in nature.
I think necgray's comparison to Quantum Leap is pretty apt. -
Looked an awful lot like Christian Shepard, especially when Christian had only his eyes showing while Jack was operating? Did man #1 implant himself in Christian Shepard first, then he implanted himself in Locke.. and that was the loophole to kill Jacob? Are Jacob and man #1 kinda like two warring gods.. or God and the devil?
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That's all I could keep saying when it ended. I'm fucking numb, my mind is blown, anyone who says that wasn't good is out of their minds. I mean that was mind blowing, that was insane. The guy at the very beginning wanted to kill Jacob but couldn't so whoever it was took YEARS to find somebody to do it and it's Ben, just incredible. And that ending, holy fuck Juliet is awesome, I can't believe we have to wait 'til 2010 to see the end of this, I don't know how I'm gonna make it.
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When she was stealing that New Kids On The Block lunchbox...Did anyone get a screencap of that?
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after all. Either 100% false, or something from season 6. I doubt its saved for season 6, because they wouldn't have spent the time and resources (and makeup) and paying all the extras to shoot something that far ahead. Oh well. I thought it was a kickass idea.
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watch it again.
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This finale was heavily balanced toward the supernatural, I agree. But that doesn't mean the entire 6th season is going to be that way. As an episode, it could have used more science and less spirituality, sure, but people are flipping shit over the imbalance and I just think it's unwarranted. This episode doesn't mean Lost is going to abandon science fiction or reason.
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I've been hoping (and still hope) we'll get appearances from all those who've died on the show- Boone, Shannon, Libby, Ana-Lucia, EKO, CHARLIE! Still holding out hope for the zombie season.
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...but it smells way too much like The Stand for my tastes.
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Because you mentioned it as part of the stuff you liked from the early seasons of the show- the destiny vs free will debates of Locke and Jack. Destiny/Faith vs Science/free will.
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Was this a spoiler that turned out to be false? I avoided them, could you enlighten me please?
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...about destiny vs. free will were one example of how the running theme of the show has been about conflict between those sorts of philosophies. Whereas this episode seems to imply that the conflict next season will be between two supernatural entities, meaning that the philosophical debate has largely been settled.
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" Illae Qui Nos Servabit "
Everyone being saved. -
It's NOT apt. Quantum Leap never brought spirituality into the mix, then kicked fans in the face with it in the very last episode. Whereas Lost has shown plenty of supernatural and biblical influence.
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Even as a funny..I am pretty sure you just made Chris Hansen's list...which of course...
branches me over to remember one of the funniest episodes of the funniest show in the verse...The IT Crowd..when Jen starts dating a fella named Peter File. and they go to the airport. and he gets a page.
Anyway, Skip..that was just wrong, again, as Desmond said..on several levels -
Sawyer made a promise....but Jacob wasn't testing him on whether or not he would finish writing the letter...he was testing him to see if he would carry out the promise he MAKES in that letter...which he did (incorrectly) when he went to Austrailia to kill the "REAL" Sawyer.
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Look where being a Man of Faith got Locke- manipulated into being a dead man.
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May 14, 2009 1:17:59 AM CDT
After all, who is left to fight for the cause of reason?
by royston lodge
Faraday's dead. Locke's possessed, or something. Jack's become a true believer. Sawyer seems to believe anything someone with a pair of nice boobies tells him. Nobody on the show's a skeptic anymore.
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Jacob and probably Esau. Jacob has faith in human nature, while the other despises it.
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I would not be surprised at all if it starts off identically to the pilot, except the turbulance on the plane settling down and it not crashing, or something to that effect, just to fuck with everyone. But it also more than likely will be something completely new that is impossible to guess.
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I'm saying I don't remember Jacob saying *anything* about a promise to Sawyer. I remember Sawyer's relative making him promise not to do something. I just recall Jacob giving the kid a pencil.
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Juliet dying actually got me teary-eyed. That was some incredible acting between her and Sawyer. And I like the fade to white--reverse Sopranos! FUCK YOU Sopranos!
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Long live evil not-Locke!
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What is the loophole? I'll start there.
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Well, stabbed him at least. Or they're Cain and Abel, but those two seem very small time. They aren't a Judo-Christian God and Devil, but Good vs. Evil. Maybe Other Guy/Locke is Smokey, too. But Jacob seemed very God-like, comforting people in times of need, saving Syaid from getting hit by a car, telling Ben he had free will, and even bringing Locke back to life after he fell out the window (motherfucker was dead, just look at it. Touches him and he heals). And they're fighting to save the world. As people often refer to the island to saving the world. Also, Jakob was wearing white. That, and this is the 3rd season finale in a row with Locke in a coffin. Who'd a thunk it?
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May 14, 2009 1:22:06 AM CDT
"this is the 3rd season finale in a row with Locke in a coffin."
by d.vader
Sheesh, the producers have basically telegraphed it from the beginning: "He's DEAD you fuckers! How many times do we have to slap you over the head with it!" RIP Locke. RIP Juliet's cans.
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May 14, 2009 1:23:30 AM CDT
What if Darlton died together in a plane crash over the summer?
by manicfanatic
Just throwing it out there.
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I think the spiritual side of Quantum Leap was hinted at before the finale. I always noted that they never adequately explained how they knew what the "correct" course of events was supposed to be. The idea that Sam was doing "God's work", and/or that a divine intelligence was behind everything was hinted at from time to time. The two-parter where he saves his brother's life in Vietnam but the young journalist's life has to be sacrificed for it to happen comes to mind.
I think my issue is that what makes Lost great is the ambiguity that courses through its veins. It's not impossible to come up with a kick-ass final season without throwing that ambiguity out the window. -
The guy gets screwed over in life and in death.
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Keep it Sci Fi Damon & Carlton, all this religious babble is boring. Season 2 was the best in the hatch. it's spiraling into the ridiculous now. Possessing bodies, smokey being ancient and not a Dharma experiment, lots of egypt (stargate sucked people, lets not repeat that turd), and Juliet smacking a thermos with a rock is the season ender! Oh Dear, someone was busy writing star trek weren't they....
CC:"Quick Damon, we have to make Star Trek Awesome Again."
DL: Okay Carlton, just finishing up this season of lost, er hit me with three buzz words so i can put this puppy to bed.
CC: Er.. Time Travel, Egypt, and er... Thermos?
DL: Done. And i liked time travel so much, lets use that for Star Trek too. Boom!
CC : What about Egypt! That's Transformers 2 right there! We can make these ridiculous futuristic toys be from ancient egypt! Kids will eat, that, up!
DL: Man, we've got alot on our plate CC, and Michael Bay needs a script aysap! I think we're spreading ourselves thin for $$$!
CC: Hang on DL, i sneezed in this hanky a minute ago!?
DL: Fax it to Bay!
CC: Nice. At this pace we can be outta here by 2PM and sucking down Mojitos in Malibu! And with JJ outta town knocking out that X-Files clone in Boston with that bloke from Dawson's Creek we can kick back.
DL: Good Times Carlton.
CC: Good Times DL.
DL & CC: Paaartaaay!
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They weren't done building it when his hand got fucked up durring The Incident. Or maybe they filmed it before he fucked up his hand. I'll take that as a No-Prize explanation, cause I don't think we're going to get one. Unless he DID have the fake hand in the Orchid video, I have no idea.
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Bram and his team were the good guys, that they were the side that was going to win. Bram and his team seem to be on Jacob's side, searching for Richard, being visited by Jacob in the hospital (in Illana's case). If a is followed by b, and then c, I think we can assume that Widmore was not taking orders from Jacob, but maybe from Bacoj. Or perhaps he wasn't listening to either of them and was acting out of his own selfish interests. But based on what Bram has said, it seems he and Illana would be on the opposite spectrum from Widmore, and if Widmore is bad and Jacob is good, then... welll.... my brain is exploding. What did Illana say about what's in the case? Its "something we need to show to the other side to show them what they're up against"?
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"he who will protect us all". http://www.apakistannews.com/ille-qui-nos-omnes-servabit-120
411 -
It was called out in the
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That IS what lies in the shadow of the island! At least that's my theory.
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Even if those two supernatural figures are the focus, I think you're still going to get philosophical debate. They, themselves, were debating philosophies in the opening scenes. What may have been settled by this finale is the question of whether or not Lost is a science fiction show. And the answer is "not likely". But again, it never was.
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writing the letter...and while he may have finished it...I think Jacob knew Sawyer's caretaker would ask him to promise not to finish it. But I think the real promise was implied that he not carry out the letters contents.
Just like he asked (sexy? LOL!) young Kate never to steal again...which...as we all know she did. She stole a toy plane! -
It was called out in the segment where Juliet patted her tummy and said "no thanks" to tea.
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Anyways, liked the faux Locke, didn't like the shoot out, they should avoid shoot outs.
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If it offends you that much. This isn't Isaac Asmimov's LOST, or Richard Dawkin's LOST. The show is.. what it is. Sorry its not the show you wanted it to be.
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Afterall, he REFERS to the Incident in the video. Its never been proven that he had a fake arm in the video- it just never moved. So I theorize that he couldn't move it due to pain/therapy/rehab. But later he regains control of it.
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I don't think so. Unless she was her dad, which I highly doubt. Kind of an out-of-place flashback there, unless it was to set up Juliet's change of mind. Or she ran outside and met Jacob, and they just fuckin cut it out. Which would be lame.
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testingtesting
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'ille' is feminine, and...
'She who will deliver us from the hand of these mighty gods'...
It is a challenge..it is from Samuel...think Indiana Jones...the good one..hmmph. Goodwin.
Look it up. -
He needs to be in season 6. Great face and voice. I thought it was perfect.
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I'll miss the talks with the West Coasters, but its 2:30 am over here on the East Sii-iide. Gnight all.
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They can easily be either the same person or remnants of other people caught in a timeloop composite into a singular identity flowing through time. Or something like that.
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What exactly she said about showing what's inside the box to the "other side". I interpreted what she said as something like "we're gonna show them what they're up against so they knew we're better" or something like that (which made her seem like a bad guy). But it turns out its just Locke? I'm confused- what exactly was it that she said?
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in the Bible. He didn't do anything but want some food after a hard days work.
What if Ben was taking orders from "Esau" all along thinking it was Jacob? I mean if Jacob lived in that foot, why would Ben keep going to the cabin? Or did Ben knowingly make a deal with the devil when Jacob ignored him? -
I'm not opposed to the use of the supernatural or a debate about faith. I happen to be pretty religious in real-life. What bugs me is that when a shows "settles the debate" in favour of the supernatural, it actually DENIES the concept of faith. After all, if you KNOW you're dealing with gods and devils, that means you no longer need faith because you have proof. In order for a character to have faith, the possibility that they're just plain wrong needs to be maintained. And this idea isn't necessarily limited to religion or the supernatural. One could argue that the X-Files became less satisfying once they confirmed the existence of the aliens and eliminated any chance that Mulder was simply off his rocker.
Of course, it's a long time until 2010. Who knows what madness the writers have in store for us.
All I know is that this seemed like the least ambiguous finale of any Lost season. They ended the season with more answers than questions, which is not the way any other Lost season has finished. -
But I guess we'll find out next year. Actually, if it goes the Jesus/Angel direction like BATTLESTAR
I'll feel disgusted, that, sir, would be a waste of time. -
If it comes down to philosophical ambiguity or genre ambiguity for you, then we're never going to find common ground anyway. Strip away all the genre tropes and philosophizing twaddle and it's still amazing. The characters make it great. The dialogue makes it great. The relationships between the characters make it great. Etc. Quantum Leap is still an awesome show, even if I hated the finale with a passion. (and actually, your point is somewhat taken now that I recall the "Evil Leaper" nonsense late in the series run - but I would argue that it was not as overt as Lost is being and has been since early on)
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For what exactly? Are they Off-Island Others? Could Lapidus join them? Is he a candidate for spiritual possession?
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That's my guess. Who or what the fuck the smog monster is, don't know.
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If you've loved the show up to now and thought it was great storytelling, how would that be a waste of time? How? Some of you people, I f'n swear...
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Jar Jar Binks :)
bedtime, night kids. -
i loved the finale of BSG, supernaturalism and all. I don't mind a touch of it in Lost. But the fact remains that this show has become a travesty of redundant overplotting and excessive gun cocking and a stupid love quandrangle that only ever functions due to the skill of its actors who time and again have been reduced to utter stupidity. I expect a supernatural explanation but not one so ham handed as two powerful ageless omnipresent beings who have metrosexual haircuts and conveniently appear when they story needs them only and yet can die from stab wounds. Darlton never came up with any solutions for their mysteries, just some complicated future plotting, and are now insisting its a show about characters. I disagree, in its first two seasons it was a show about everything. That's the thing: I used to love it. But now the stupidity is beyond belief. One week we have a Dharma torturer and three weeks later no one even remembers him when the Dharma folk talk about how they don't torture. What was with Claire's psychic? Why did the numbers (yes yes bs excuse valenzetti equation) have anythign to do with Hurley? Why do they keep fucking introducing characters? Cause they've clearly run out of things to do with the main ones. I'm not here to argue some metaliterate debate about what the show means - it means nothing more than a fistful of liberal arts references to things that are far cleverer with no coherent theory. Most of the theories talkbackers have come up with the past few years have been more compelling. And lest I remind everyone: Jack's tattoos. They gave us a whole fucking episode about that horseshit but we still have no idea wtf the smoke monster is, the black rock, the numbers, baby aaron, the point of charlie's sacrifice, libby being in the mental instititue, etc etc. I watch Lost now cause it's like watching a textbook train crash example of how to run a great tv show into the ground creatively. At least I'll give Darlton they aren't the team who destroyed Heroes. But don't even fucking tell me Lost is anywhere near the league of BSG, The Wire, Sopranos, or Friday Night Lights.
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In the story of Jacob and Esau...it is one of the few, some would say, ambiguous judgemental outcomes in the Bible. God passes no judgment on which of the two fraternal twins is right or wrong...
So, extrapolate forward...as Jack mentioned ...they got sent to eternal time out...to work their shit out, yeah? The 'RULES' were given...and one must suppose that the primary is:
By your hand, you not may harm the other...
just sayin... -
For those that think they are making it up as they go along and introducing new characters and taking the show in a whole new direction on whims, I have a question. Why then, did they bother to show us the four toed statue that is so important right, way back early in the show? Seems to me they knew were they were headed with this all along. It's like any other saga, like Star Wars, there's a beginning, and outline of basic things that must be in it, and an ending and they work from there.
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Jacob and Esau are the real castaways on the island...ALIEN castaways??? Is it time to go dust off "Chariots of the Gods" again?
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So says LOSTpedia. I don't seem to remember him in the Season 4 finale....? Where was he there?
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There is a book on the table in the Juliet flashback with the title "Mysteries of Ancient America." I googled this topic and it brought up a book called "Discovering the Mysteries of Ancient America" by Frank Joseph. The book has a bunch of cool shit in it that may pertain to Lost. Fountain of Youth, Ancient Pyramids being portals to other dimensions, etc. Joseph also wrote a book on Atlantis and some on metaphysics. These characters of Jacob and "Esau" could be some kind of deities from ancient forgotten civilization. Definitely need to look into this more.
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he visits hurley at the mental institute
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The current time of the show for REAL is something like 2040, not 2007. The entire series is a flashback, just some are newer (the flash forwards). It's all a time loop. Jack (or someone) has reset the timeline before, and we're witnessing at least the 2nd iteration. That's why everyone knew each other or had weird connections before the island.. all course correction. The island brought them there. Jacob was supposed to be Aaron caught in some timeloop from the future, he's being doing this a VERY long time. The temple is said to NOT be for the "815ers" by Ben. Why? Because they're already in there, from a previous timeloop. Hurley's voice is on the radio because he recorded the numbers to ensure course correction. They've all fucked up before and are trying to make it right. The temple is outside time and space so they have to hide and wait it out in the temple and not interfere while things play out. The smoke monster is an agent of course-correction: it scans your life to see how many loops you've been through, and if you've interfered... if you have, it tries to drag you to the temple, or it if feels you won't be repentant, it kills you, or possesses you to kill others who won't cooperate. We saw it scanning Juliet's life, and we saw what it did with Eko. We saw it trying to drag John Locke in season 1. Anyways... how do the "Others" have such detailed personal files on all the 815ers? Because the 815ers wrote them themselves... autobiography! Who were the unseen "Others" stealing the kids in season 1? The 815ers... keeping the kids out of it. There's a whole lot more to it than this, and it seemed to fit a ton of things. However.. it was all based on what is pretty much a fake finale-set-report sent in, where an extra witnessed a "30 year older Jin" come out of the temple and tell John Locke, fighting with someone over leadership, that there is a heirarchy of Others on the island. And then walks out older Jack, older Kate, etc. Who have all been in the temple for at least 30 years, possibly hiding there since the incident, or time traveled back from the time of the full-statue and hiding in the temple. But this is not what we saw tonight. Oh well, I thought it was a kickass theory. WE are the Others.... the losties, the 815ers, are the ultimate Temple elder-Others calling the shots and trying to manipulate events from behind the scenes.
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He's an allright guy most of the time, but here he's just trying to rile everyone up. Ignore it.
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Then why even bother with the cabin, the ash around the cabin, Jack's dad subbing in for Jacob, Claire being involved in that, why didn't Jacob's visitation to all these characters have been shown earlier? Cause it's a ton of horseshit. "How do we show that they were all connected and had a destiny: Jacob shows up in all their lives! And he looks like a guy in a Michelob commercial!"
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Good catch there welcomeaboard_bitchtits!
http://tinyurl.com/pjrpuz
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i loved, loved, loved the first two seasons of the show. even though i thought the ominous way everyone said "the others" was getting hilariously cheesy. I mean loved, loved, loved. The first season is one of the greatest single seasons of tv ever. But tonight's ending moment just made me chuckle at the sheer stupidity of it. The ONLY thing that worked really well the whole episode was Locke telling Ben why he should kill Jacob, and Juliet's death thanks to the actors.
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Paraphrasing. "I like red wine. A girl asked me once, 'But doesn't red wine give you a headache?' Yeah, eventually. But the first and middle parts are amazing. I'm not gonna stop doing something just because of how it ends. 'Mitch, do you want an apple?' 'No! Eventually it'll be a core'" That's how I feel about many of the people complaining about this season finale and/or how they assume or fear the series will end.
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...with this show it would be nice to have a solid ending. I think ending it, at least from my point of view, with a spiritual angle would be underwhelming. Of course, it can definitely be done, and done excitingly well. I'm hoping for a satisfying ending for the series.
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Goddamn. GODDAMN.
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Is the whole Lock/compass scenario. EVIL LOCKE set things in motion by telling Richard to find and fix GOOD LOCKE and give him the compass....and Locke travels back in time and convinces Richard he is special.
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Tie it into Star Trek...awesome.
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Just to be clear. I thought it was the bee's knees.
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When Hurley was at the cabin and looked in the window, I swear the eye the flashed at him was blue/green. Originally, I remember it being brown during the episode's first airing. Can anyone confirm this change as a result of the Jacob casting? Or perhaps that angry eye was actually Bocaj/Esau, as Illana said Jacob hadn't been there in a long time and that someone else had been living there instead.
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May 14, 2009 1:53:50 AM CDT
evil locke told richard to tell real locke to die so he could ap
by errockk
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Also, those poor DHARMA engineers! The Losties just started shooting them up with no warning. From their view, Jack was a dirty bomb suicide bomber (which he was really).
And since when does Jack kill people? He went all gangsta. -
I believe those questions you just asked will be answered in season 6. I'm not really saying you and your camp are wrong, I'm simply asking a question.
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..I'm not even reading the limited amount of hate on this talkback. It all sums up to, "oh shit it got popular. must hate it. do people like the wire yet? no. ok good. it's still good". Go tweet it bitch.
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It all comes down to chioces with that story. One could look at it by just a transaction, but the true heart of that story is that Esau sold his spiritual inheritance for food or a thing of the world. He made a choice between the things of God and the things of the world and over time the choices of these two men lead them on far different paths.
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I mean, he never really succeeded...in doing anything. But he tried and we were right there with him, but then he fucking dies and now he's a villain for the rest of the show? He never really found what he was looking for...
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Will depend on whether or not it ends with a series finale better or worse than Galactica's horseshit. I've had enough deus ex machina in the past five years for three lifetimes (thank you, Harry Potter, for contributing mightily to that - guess that's what I get for deciding to see what all the fuss is about). The Shield was a textbook perfect way to end a series. Lost still has time, but tonight's episode was dispiriting to me. Recent motivations (at least where the H bomb crew are concerned) are verging on "Heroes" level inconsistency. I hate to sound too critical, because I loved much of the season, but this finale was profoundly un-resonant for me. Seriously, who would pick Kate over Juliet? Kate is in love with her own "mysteries." I love the writers, I'm just feeling a bit grumpy right now.
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It just doesn't feel right, Jack shot like 5 people in this episode. And I think a couple episodes back he shot 2 or 3. Not counting all the other people Kate, Sawyer, etc. have killed through out the series. Their like a viscous Irish gang.
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...just saying.
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I could be wrong..I usually am..but I have learned to enjoy the Zen of such:
I don't read a lot of huzzah's for the behind the green 4th curtain effort given, so, Bueno, pues, mira. ..allow me to sycophant!
Writers. Outstanding...you are making me eat my soul for the next many months...and as Jerry said he didn wanna be a pirate...I dona wanna eat my soul for the next many months. Top Shelf!
Elizabeth Mitchell and Josh Holloway...Don't fuck this up Mitchell! And you, lady, you never do, do ya. Well done. And Holloway, Josh, my gods, how far has he come...cut an emotional vein and bleed for me and the folk who follow...and you got to kick Jack in the balls...the jewels...Sir Paul Westphal and Dr James Noisewater..the junk. How many have waited for how long for that. Well. All right, all right, All right...Outstanding! (although that may be more for the above than he)..but, and, still, friends, now, when an actor gives up some such part of the places no one likes to go to...it is in the brain; indistinguishable. The brain believes the owner has gone to that darky dark place...with all the consequence one would expect. Z'why so many 'good' actors are so bumbledy fooked in person
Beautifully shot...HD loves Hawaii and the lensers who shoot this thing. First Class.
You kids who beef this about that...whinge for the thing you see more better....Well.
What will you have to whinge about when this company of players is gone on and from.
Reflecting. I feature you will not have trouble or look long for such a thing. Petty Shilly Shatty Wankers.
LOST. Wonderful.
POOM! -
...trying to get his "Bocaj" fad going, but nobody is biting ROFL. Give it up, it's ESAU.
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how we were led to believe the real story was an epic conflict between Ben and Charles Widmore but in reality they were just mere pawns as well. It goes even deeper than them. The show's scope just expanded ten fold yet again...
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I know that Doc Jensen paralleled it to the Season 2 finale, but I see so many more with season 1. Season 1 had multiple character flashbacks with one single theme. Both had the characters carrying explosives to blow up the Hatch. Both had the Black Rock. Both had the tunnels. (Locke almost getting dragged down into them by smokie). Tons of other parallels.
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I submit that Jack/Juliet did prevent the crash. We've been led to believe this season that the survivors ended up causing the incident that causes them to crash, but I think tonight proved that Radzinsky caused it with his drilling. Jack dropped the bomb, and shit went haywire, but then we find out that it didn't go off when it hit bottom, so it wasn't the reason for the crane collapsing, etc. I'd call what happened before the explosion "the incident".When I think of the conversation at the start between whoever the two guys are--Jacob/Esau, God/Devil, whatever--one says "it always ends the same--they come, they fight, they destroy, etc.". Jacob says "it only ends once, everything leading up to that is progress."One of the main themes since season one has been the chance to do things differently than before--flashback situations mirror island situations and sometimes the 815ers made the same mistakes, but lots of times did things better than they did before.Now if the incident happens, then the 815ers are in a time loop--crash,travel back in time, incident happens, buttton, Desmond doesn't hit button, crash, repeat. But if the bomb tonight negated the energy like Faraday thought it would, this could be the one ending Jacob was talking about and everything leading up to it was progress. We've seen most of the characters slowly changing into better people. Sawyer helped Jack in the end, knowing he probably would never meet Juliet, Kate--knowing she'd go to prison, etc. Jack wanted to prevent Charlie, Claire and others from dying.I got the feeling that Jacob was talking either about each group that comes to the island going through their own time loop until they get things right and prevent themselves from coming to the island, or maybe even one loooong time loop until one of the groups the island attracts puts and end to the loop. As for Sun seeing Jack and co. in the Dharma picture, I don't know how to explain that--but I also still can't buy the theory that the survivors caused their own crash--they couldn't be on the island until the crash had already happened and the crash couldn't happen until they came to the island. The old "your own grandpa" paradox.Now that I think about it, though, if I'm right and Jack didn't cause the incident, then there's no paradox--Radzinsky causes incident, eventual plane crash, survivors go back in time and die in the explsion only to come back in thirty years to die again. I don't know how big an explosion that would be since the bomb was so far down, but I doubt Radzinsky could've gotten far enough away to live, so he couldn't kill himself in the hatch now, right? I think the bomb will change things, but with this show who the hell knows.Sorry so long and rambling, but it's late and my mind is blown after tonight's finale. Probably a lot of holes in my theory, so maybe a waste of time.
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it occurred to me that off island Jacob was not Jacob at all, but Fake Locke using Jacob's image to manipulate the Losties. After all, Fake Locke made that comment about the loophole and how much it took to get back to the island. If he can appear as Locke I would imagine he can make himself appear as anyone. If this is true, I would figure that Locke has never been special at all, merely a pawn in the bigger game.
As for Radzinsky, I am now convinced he never did die in the Swan at all, but ended up in the mental hospital with Hurley. Remember Lenny, who spent all day repeating the numbers over and over? I came across a screen shot from that episode and I'm certain it's Radzinsky. If I find the link I'll post it, unfortunately I didn't bookmark, just saved picture to hard drive. -
LOST seems to have shades of that "divine intervention" stuff that some of you hate in BSG. But it really seems to want to explore it. That opening scene with Jacob alone should be a hint that LOST is going to explore life's "big questions" a little more than BSG did. I'm not saying they will answer everything, and they shouldn't when it comes to spiritual stuff. (I'm not bashing BSG btw, just comparing)
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of evil not-Locke being the one who sets actual Locke on the path to dying. That's just. . .awesome.
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"Hey Walt"
"Hey Hurley"
"gettin Big dude..."
I'm goin to the Pub and sleepin till afternoon...ah, the benefits of..ah, well, the benefits.
Ciào, bitches. -
...it shall be revealed in the final episode. Mr. Roark= Esua.
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Subject is: "815ers-are-Temple-Others theory explained"
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Overall best written series thus far:The Wire... Best series finale thus far: The Shield...runner up in both categories: Battlestar Galactica (I actually liked how it ended, but the last few episodes were dissapointing)
...Series that will actually depress me when over: Lost, seriously it may not be as well written as the wire, or not end as good as the shield, but i dont think I will ever get more excited for a tv show than I do with Lost. Fucking greatest show ever. -
Jacob never lived in the Cabin. Jacob trapped the man who wants to kill him in there and trapped him in there with the ring of dust. He inhabited Christian's body to manipulate everyone, especially Locke. He told Locke he would have to sacrifice himself at the bottom of the Orchid and when he pretending to be Locke, he got Richard to tell Locke he would have to die and bring everyone back. After the ring of ash was disturbed, he was able to leave the cabin and the Island. He finally completed his promise by pretending to be Locke and using Ben to kill Jacob which is a loophole to whatever rule exists that makes it impossible for him to kill Jacob. The Smoke Monster may be the man as well or at least a servant. That is why the Smoke Monster convinced Ben to follow "Locke". Locke's connection to the Island was never with Jacob, but this man and the Smoke Monster which is controlled by him.
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Anyone get the idea when Evil Locke kicked Jacob into the fire of the mythological bird the Pheonix? What if Jacob is like the Pheonix. Yeah kill him and he rises again? Another thing that came to me along those lines. Darlton gave an interview a few weeks ago saying that when all is said and done that people will look back at the series as a whole and realize that one of their biggest influences was the Narnia series. Think about what happened to Aslan when he was killed. Im guessing that we haven't seen the last of Jacob. I'll get the exact quote during the next few days, hopefully tomarrow.
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...it SUCKED! I mean,B5 sucked. Although I love B5 too. Anyways, great military scifi, 90% consistent, but 10% pure SUCK. And, unfortunately, it would SUCK at crucial moments. Like humans giving up technology and Starbuck being an Angel. Poorly done.
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Was Christian ever really speaking for Jacob? In Cabin Fever, when he tells Locke to move the island, was that all part of the setup as well? I assume when Christian later tells Locke he will have to die because that's why they call it sacrifice....that wasn't Jacob, but part of the manipulation.
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Disagree. That had Season 2 stink all over it...right down to the WTF coda. Juliet. bang. bang. bang. boom.And you must knowse I still lubs youse and your site, yeah? Miyamoto takes things wayyyy too seriously for a movie fan boy site...Uhnn! Bernard! I want make Shanjay...Not the pub..I am going to rewatch the pilot on my beautimous 14' CineCurve right now...ah, the streets and the late 20 something girls with baggage and daddy issues will be safe from the magical power of my whiskey and cigarette breath. Aye, a thousand times, aye! It is as should be.Zo, Pa4we
Ok. Zer Gootzy, meine fuitzy...tschüss! -
May 14, 2009 2:20:56 AM CDT
People who criticize the show that have never seen it..
by billypilgrimisunstuck
...are like the people who crowd around the small Jewish guy outside in New York City in an episode of The People's Court, screaming their opinions about something they are uninformed about, hoping someone will just pay attention to them.
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You saying that just made me realize the ramifications of that...
Wow, that is some creepy shit right there... -
But I want to know how far back the manipulation goes. It all started when Christian told him to move the island. I think tonight was the very first time we've really seen Jacob.
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...found the cabin, or was it Ben when he took locke up to meet him. I vaguely remember someone accidentally brushing his foot through the ash.
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they brought Charlies ring backinto the story finally. Now hopefully when Claire comes back next season Sun can give it to her.
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are a probable conclusion, but not conclusive. It could be heaven vs hell but it could be something else entirely as well. i think anyone who thinks they have the entire series figured out already based on the subtle clues they laid out in this episode must be smokin crack... we'll see where it leads, whether its esau, anubis, or any other of the several references the producers have easter egged on us throughout the entire series
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is Harvey Levin, the founder of TMZ! MUCH RESPECT BIZZATCH! ...or not :)
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Been posing as all those other people? Christian, Claire, etc???
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Trying to remember if "Esau" (the man at the beginning who said he was going to kill Jacob) ever touched Jacob at the start of the episode...because it seems more than likely that this *whatever* that's impersonating all of these dead people on the island is Esau. Christian's the one who INSISTED that Locke would have to die, right? And as soon as this happens and Locke comes back to The Island (via metal crate), Esau apparently takes Locke's form and eventually convinces Ben to do his dirty work for him. Seems like he might also have control of Cerberus/Smokey, seeing as how the monster demanded that Ben follow "Locke's" orders at all costs. Never liked the look of that shifty-eyed old doctor.
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Hey all you cool cool wild ones orbiting the floor...here is a couples skate kick off for Juliet from James...all right, now...
What I feel, I cant say..
But my love is there for you anytime of day
But if its not love that you need
Then I'll try my best to make everything succeed
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
What I know, I can do
If I give my love now to everyone like you
But if its not love that you need
Then Ill try my best to make everything succeed
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
What I feel, I cant say
But my love is there for you any time of day
But if its not love that you need
Then Ill try my best to make everything succeed
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Oh tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
What is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Oh tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me who am I without you by my side -
what a brilliant chess move! woa! "It only ends once!"
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Pantera and I apparently thought the same thing at the same time...
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was the return of VINCENT! Seein my favorite four legged buddy was the highlight for me.
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There's still Claire, and the kidnapped children from season 2, to be revealed. And the Temple. And, as previously mentioned in the talkback, Jacob might rise from the dead with mutant healing power. Remember the Russian who couldn't die. That guy should of been dead like 5 times, and kept coming back. I'm surprised we haven't seen him yet. Also John was shot and apparently healed by the island. Anyways, LOST has a REAL bad track record with keeping people they killed dead. After Season 2 Lock, Echo, and Desmond should of been vaporized.
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"Dead is dead... you don't get to come back from that..."
He called it... -
The spider that bit Nikki (the annoying former actress who stole those diamonds with her himbo boyfriend Paulo)? A manifestation of the monster, according to Cuse and Lindelof.
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With all that "Eloise left Australia/Faraday was 17 at Oxford/Desmond's dad knocked up Eloise/Locke is Peter Pan" junk. Any comments? Want to share some of that LSD you have?
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Would make sense, if he's going to use Locke as a vessel, and with healing Mikhail (who's working for the not-too-savory types).
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Impossible. How would they be able to explain Walter's sudden growth?
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I hope they avoid a sentimental 10 minute actors bow with the final. Anyone remember Deep Space Nine's conclusion, God Damn, Odo had a tux.
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Explain yourself.
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Suck it, Trebek.
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The first time that you see Christian (Jack & Boone are talking about the drowned girl) Jack looks over and see Cristian if you look up at the tree line you can see black smoke. Which would mean that Christian has been smokie, just a guess. So Alex (Smokie/Esau) tells Ben to follow Locke (Smokie/Esau) which tells him to kill Jacob. Not sure how it fits in but before that Christian (Smokie/Esau) tells Locke to turn the Donkey wheel which causes tons of problems.
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May 14, 2009 2:47:04 AM CDT
I swear to god, if the A-Bomb was a successful reset...
by themarinebiologist
I will stop watching the show right now. I can safely assume, however, that this won't be the case and that the Atomic Bomb was not, indeed, a reset button. Everything happens for a reason...
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before I go to bed, good twist with evil Locke, I also like the fact that it seemed that Jack did cause the incident then the unstoppable Juliet nukes everyone. I also like the more indirect way last episode focused on Richard and this episode focused on Jacob. The acting overall, excellent. And it's impressive that the show can provoke as many emotions while viewing it without the use of any vulgarity or extreme violence. It's interesting that the show still feels just as shocking and real (in tension) as other great shows that have lately been coming out on cable.
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And it was called BSG. Please, please, PLEASE do not end Lost like that. That conversation on the beach between Jacob and (shall we call him his "constant"?) was eerily reminiscent of the worst noodling to come out of the mouths of cylons. Still, finale was pretty good, though I am pissed about the bait & switch with "wise Locke". Apparently "wise Locke" is "evil shape-shifting angel taking the form of Locke." And that, my friends, sucks.
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..not yet confirmed Jacob or Esua are angels, gods, whatever.
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...and in the end, it shall be revealed as the prequel to FANTASY ISLAND. Prequels are in.
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would be to easy in the last podcast. So from that it my guess that it won't reset things, just send them all back to island 2007 for whatever the final battle will be.
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May 14, 2009 2:58:24 AM CDT
Rotten Tomatoes 245 reviews 96% but keep trying it's still funny
by g100
Must be extremely gratifying to be spending so much time clearly changing so many peoples minds about this Movie.
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I'm wondering if the ending's logo switcheroo might be hinting back at the costuming in the opening sequence. Maybe the Jacob & Esau morality thing is not as black & white as it seems... Also- Jacob wasn't fixing up a red herring for us, was he?
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The statue is the crocodile-headed god, Sobek. He was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek
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Set was a "god of confusion, chaos, storms, wind, the desert and foreign lands". He was also later made to be an 'evil god', but the first definition seems to ring true to the show. The Wheel does boot you out into a desert/foreign land, so those still fit.
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May 14, 2009 3:20:15 AM CDT
Character development - please get polling on this site!!!!
by cant_stop_yawning2
Why this site doesn't enable polling remains beyond me.
To me the development of Sawyer, Ben, Sun and Juliet. And, of course, Locke - but then, who/what is Locke now? If they were to hit restart right now, who would have changed the most by virtue of their time on the island? -
physically touches everyone he comes into contact with. Even Sayid. After Nadia gets hit with the car he puts his hand on his shoulder. He touches Kate's nose and touches Sawyer's hand when he gives him the pen.
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don't know if it's been mentioned, but she was the variable that Faraday spoke of, because -as far as we know- Jacob never visited her. Also, did anyone notice how up-to-date the furniture and clothing were in the "kid Juliet" flashback. I'm wondering if this wasn't a vision of something yet to come. For example: nuke detonates and everyone that dies is reborn to one day come back to the island again.
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We saw Jacob visit everyone in the flashbacks except Juliet. I'm wondering if her visit from Jacob came in the jungle in 1977 and is the reason for her sudden complete turnaround on stopping Jack from detonating the bomb. Did he tell her to help Jack?
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Anyone else notice that in Kate's childhood flashback, the boy was holding that toy airplane Kate would later retrieve during a bank heist or whatever?
And anyone else thinking Richard arrived on the Black Rock? -
At first I thought it was just an oversight, but my friend asked why would they make sure Kate's scene provided authenticity but not Juliets? So that gives me pause.
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It's beyond obvious that "evil Locke" is the dude from the start of the ep talkng to Jacob. That's why they showed it. He said he would kill Jacob one day. Sure enough evil Locke says, "You would not believe what I had to do to get here--blah blah."
The "loop-hole" is getting SOMEONE else to kill Jacob, not himself.
I can also see how the Smoke Monster(tm) could be him. The ash being broken set him free and that's why we see him interacting with everyone in those flashbacks. Setting up the great manipulation.
Then when he returns to the island he's Mr. Smoke and god knows what else. We HAVE seen "it" become people before, and fairly recently. So now he's copied Locke and killed Jacob. -
interesting theory. In some ways it fits with something that I've been thinking about for some time (among my many theories on this show), I think there might be more to the flashbacks than meets the eye. For instance; what if the flashbacks occured a different way originally, but through the islands strange properties Jacob can insert himself into someone's memories and change history. Sort of like controlling the mind-like time traveling that Desmond experienced in "The Constant."
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I think that Richard arrived on the Black Rock. I think that him putting together the ship in the bottle may have been a clue.
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what if jacob is in someone else's body just like Esau, or what if he get's in Jack's body in the final season and then it really becomes Jack vs. Locke (two warring gods?)
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If. If Dr. Eric Hackett, Silas Adams, nee Titus Welliver as portraying well... Esau, Smokey, as is the one who lives in the cabin and can possess and assume corporeal form...
fine.
Zombie Christian. Zombie Locke...well even Zombie Claire...but who was possessin the other when Zombie Claire and Christian were shown sittin and evilly smilin together
yeah? Seems you'd need two evil entities...where is that evil zombie amendment to the evil zombie constitution?
just sayin. -
Did anyone notice the fish Jacob was eating in opening scene is a 'Red' Herring? Is it to suggest that Jacob is a red herring, rather, our perceptions of good and bad are just a red herring?
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I've been thinking before tonight that if there's really a Jacob,he's an evil prick for allowing/ordering his people, the Others to be so damned mean to everyone, but tonight he seems alright. Ben said Richard always brought the orders from Jacob to him, and Richard obviously knew where Jacob was, so did the orders actually come from Jacob or the (maybe) evil other guy? And what the hell are these guys? So many new questions!!! At least we know who the 316ers are with and what lies in the shadow of the statue. (I think) They seem to serve Jacob, but that would make them Others and the others didn't seem to know them, which makes me even more curious if the Others' Jacob is the genuine article or not.
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May 14, 2009 3:59:36 AM CDT
And yes Sigh, Hercy Harry! His Korean language is excellent!! so
by macfaux
Why did Charlotte speak Korean..and where is my Godsdamn t-shirt?
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I got sick of reading non-sense. I don't know how lucky you've gotten once when you guessed that one thing right. No one is gonna come even close. I wish we had a portfolio of all the times people "figured it out" and how wrong they were. They write a twenty page essay with 19.9 pages of non-sense and a line reading "Bet Juliet dies" and then brag to the internet that they called it all along.
And yeah, seems like alot of people missed the "sooner or later i'm gonna find a loophole" line at the beginning. Which ties the "mysterious LOST character" (no shortage of those) to the body formerly know as Locke. -
Did anyone else pick up on Jacob sitting at the Loom of Fate at the beginning of this episode (and his subsequent reference to creating/manipulating threads (the losties fate) to meet an as yet uncertain purpose). He who controls the loom controls time and destiny.
They seem to be interweaving components of many different mythologies (Greek, Egyptian, Judeo-Christian) into one over arching mythology, possibly suggesting that each civilisation got part of their divine story correct.
One thing for certain we have some sort of underlying divine struggle going on. -
Maybe that's a better parallel for Jacob and this other guy. Personally, I thought the episode was a bit weird. I want to see how the bomb going off affects the thirty years later... will Jacob come back to life (he seemed charred to a crisp to me)? Or will there still be a fractured reality? With whatever happens after the bomb and then Lock, Richard and everyone else on the island. I'm rooting for two timelines, one in which the island is blown up but they probably won't do that. We've got to see candle lose his arm, and film all those videos, the purge and now this "who lies in the shadow of the statue" shit. Jacob is dead people, deal with it, we hardly knew him and now he's dead. They've done this before, now it goes again. I just hope this wasn't too much- now a whole new set of mysteries will get introduced and old ones will still remain in limbo...
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Jacob's appearance in the characters lives, I don't think it was coincidence that he appeared at those moments. Kate; he taught her at a young age that if you commit a crime, its ok because there are no consequences. Sayid; he taught that his choices have little to no effect on what will actually happens. so just go with it! Jack; Jack learned that if you hide around the corner and wait, the next person at the vending machine is always gonna pick the thing that's got one stuck
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This ended too much like season 1. Without even a glipmse into the consequences of the 'incident' then we have no reference points to base speculation on. At the end of season 1, *anything* can be in the hatch. That made it unsatisfying.
At the end of season 5, *anything* can be the result of the 'incident'.
Was there a time loop? Could be. Is Juliet alive? Could be. Did detonating the bomb undo five minutes of time in 1977 thereby allowing Phil to be alive, woo Kate, and together give birth to all of the livestock ever seen in Lost? Could be.
It's the same as the hatch in season 1 - what's in there? Is it a remnant of Area 51 research into polar bear fertiliy? Could be. Is it a scottish sailor who got lost on a race aorund the world who occassionally sees the future? Could be.
There's zero reference points and no rules set in the season 5 finale. We don't know if "Whatever happened, happened' or if 'Desmond is uniquely special'. Those were the key sorts of guidelines that should have been answered here. They weren't and so the rules aren't known. *Anything* is possible now. Speculation about any direction or result of season 5 is just a blind wild guess.Anyone who says otherwise is selling something... -
But I'm too tired to make them into coherent sentences. I think the "loophole" is that one of Jacob's followers needs to be the the one to kill him. Everything has been about Esau using John Locke to anger Ben enough to betray Jacob. Locke was never meant to be the leader. He was the one that actually put the idea in Richard's head in the 50's, and that's why he told Jack that he never found anything special about him. It has all been about making Ben feel jealous and jilted enough to kill Jacob. I think Esau tried to tempt Charles too, and that it eventually contributed to Ben banishing him. I have no idea if any of that made sense, and there is a lot more to it that I obviously haven't thought out or hasn't been revealed yet.
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Just a taste of what's to come... like with the flash *forward*.
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Daniel wonders into a camp with a GUN - which isn't credible, but to set up a loop and a ridiculous finale
Jack has yet another purpose that he absolutely has to fulfil- is that the what? 7th? 8th? - so he can look determined rather than just thick, as usual
Kate has an unbelievable argument over this non destiny for a non reason with no actual alternate plan just to create a fake conflict to feed into a finale?
3 people do dumb things out of step with character and a reasonable season so far just to round into a cliffhanger finale?
The writers really don't get what their problems are, do they?
I don't see an issue with the Jacon thing - didn't he basically ask Locke to kill him yonks ago? -
Crazy shit. Crazy. I can't even read all this talkback, its just too much. But from what I read, I think a lot of people are on the money. That guy with Jacob at the beginning was Esau, whom I believe has been the smoke monster as well. Don't know when this happened, but somehow he lost his real body and is only able to be seen in the form of someone dead (not in their body, as we saw Locke's body in the box). This brings into question every instance of the losties and anyone else seeing dead people (though perhaps not Hurley, who's to say if Esau's power extends past the island. Then again, Jacob's apparently did, so...). That shot early in the first season -- first episode even? -- of Jack seeing his father on the beach with his back turned; perhaps Esau trying out this new form for the first time? And I've no doubt that Ben didn't see his daughter down in that pit. We know now that Esau-Locke brought Ben down there, and much speculation that Esau = Smokey. He needed Ben to be on his side, and what better way than to have Alex appear and say, "Do whatever Locke says no matter what"? I thought at the time that the way Locke disappeared before Smokey came and reappeared once Ben was finished. At the time I just dismissed it as a convenient plot device to give Ben alone time with Smokey and laughed it off as a spot of poor writing. Not now, though. And I do believe the island is Eden (doesn't explain why children have trouble being born there though). The one question I was most curious about was, where did Claire go? If the Christian she saw was Esau, where would he take her? That's the main loophole in my theory. And also, I need to learn how to do line breaks someday, but my web-fu is weak. Either way, great fucking finale.
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Richard was the second leader, he achieved his purpose and gets eternal life. Widmore failed and joined 'Esau''s side, just like Ben.
If what Darlton said about time travel is to be true, so the 77ers will be back in the future within the first minutes of new season opening. Also, Juliet hitting the nuke device don't remind you Des turning the key, making the swan explodes? IMO she's not dead and will be given same 'powers' as Des.
The war will oppose those who have faith in human being to change (Jacob's side) against pessimists (Titus Welliver characters).
That said, we now have to wait 8 fuckin' month!!! I feel all depressed... -
is fuckin' dead??? After all the time we had to wait to meet him, I feel I'm gonna start crying!
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Holocentridae...soldier fish...squirrel fish..one fish, two fish, orange fish...just sayin.
...good eatin -
I see what the are trying to do with Locke's body still in the casket. This would make it seem like this 2nd guy can take different forms. What I don't get is why Christian's body wasn't in the casket. We are lead to believe that whoever was Christian is now Locke. Did the writers mess up by having Locke's bodv in the coffin and forget that Christian's never was?
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The producers coined the phrase 'Frozen Donkey Wheel' for last years finale. They have one a codename for the cliffhanger/s every season.
You really think people around these parts are smart enough to come up with this stuff?? -
I read your book
Hmmmmm. Sigh. Youngling, that was not spoiler that was spendthrift. fun at some one else's expense...ask Denis, youse doom fook.
They come over here
And they chop off our legs
They cut off our hands
And put nails in our eyes
O'Grady is dead
And O'Hanrahan's gone
We drink and we die
And continue to drink
O'Hanrahan
No O'Hanrahan
Look, suck on this tiny url:
http://tinyurl.com/bilbodumb
Dan's age is correct..the other things..well..next year idn't? Jeebus.
Do nah make me come back here and tiny url ya to death with previous subtlety genius and such. Yeah? OK.
End transmission. -
Richard will be the next Jacob.
And next season we will see his path from his arrival on the Island. -
from the beginning (http://tinyurl.com/r73ujq) has Greek, which reads "THEOI TOSA DOIEN OSA FRESI SESI MENOINAZ". The last letter is wrong, but otherwise it's a direct quote from Homer's Odyssey, book 6, line 180 (according to Perseus, anyway): "may the gods grant thy heart's desire"
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I love it. It's a little Cain and Abel. It's a little Jesus and Judas.
Seems there are some "rules" and "loopholes" they abide by.
The people from the new plane who had Locke's body are interesting. They seem to have knowledge one would not have unless they had spent time on the island.
Are they a group of time travelers too? Do we have 2 sets of survivors working against each other trying to correct the timeline?
As for Esau = Smoke monster and all the dead people we've seen I have to agree. It seems highly likely. Both he and Jacob have been pushing the Losties and the Others in their own directions.
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from when Ben and not-Locke meet with Jacob (http://tinyurl.com/osfjxq) is apparently from Odyssey book 8 line 413, "[may the gods] grant thee happiness". But maybe not, since it's just a fragment visible, unlike the other tapestry...
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i miss anything?
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Am not that good with the fish [is that a hint? Ben Pisces?] Now, if we were to talk about chicks...
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SID 8.0 I'd give Kate's ass in those jeans a 10.0! WHAT AN ASS! I AGREE ;)
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What a little body she's got in those jeans, I must say. What a lucky hobbit
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They show how Jack is part of the key to make Alpert believe in Locke as leader, even though he had his doubts. And how was it that turned Jack into believer? Eloise. So, where does SHE stand vis-a-vis Jacob/Nemesis?
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Did you know that he hung out with the real Richard Alpert? They did LSD together. Did you know Huxley wrote a story called Jacob's Hands, about a man named Jacob that had the power to heal people with his hands? Did you know he wrote a book called Point Counter Point, where the story is an intricate set of sub-plots revolving around several key characters each with a set of sub characters. Each character represents some aspect of life or is a stereotype of some sort and the various character paths cross in varying circumstances and Huxley analyzes every motive and internal emotion in detail, sometimes even jumping into a character's past to provide context. Did you know Huxley wrote a book called The Island, about a man shipwrecked on an island who encounter a group of people living on the island. It deals with group living, assisted reproduction,trance states for super living, and a long hard journey to a temple for spiritual enlghtenment. Or how about another Huxley work After Many Summers Dies The Swan, where the action revolves around a few main characters brought together by Jo Stoyte. Each character represents a different philosophy of living life.And every individual is called on to display not only unsleeping good will but also unsleeping intelligence. It features one character Dr Obispo, who places great faith in science and medicine as a saviour of humankind but he is trapped in ego-based "human" behaviour that prevents him from reaching enlightenment. And another character, Stoyte,who is in his sixties and fearing death, finds himself in deep contemplation of life. Enlightenment eludes him, however, as he is ruled by fear and craving. Stoyte travels with Dr Obispo to Europe, where they find an immortal human, who now resembles an ape. Stoyte cannot grasp that transcendence or goodness should be one's ultimate goal, rather than prevention of death, and expresses his wish to undergo treatment so that he too will live forever. Does any of Huxley's work I have presented sound familiar?
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Evil John didn't know about what Ben's Dead Daughter told Ben. "Do what Lock says". Evil jack was suprised, since he was in the mindset that he had to convince Ben to do it.
Jacob knew this all along.
Also note: Evil John Locke told Richard Alpert to tell Past John Locke (Who has not died yet) that he must die to bring the other O6 back.
So since Evil Locke thought he had to convince Ben, then it's the same game over and over again, but nothing ever happens. However this time Evil Locke finds out from Ben that his dead daughter spoke to him and said to follow John Locke no questions asked. This suprises evil locke and then realizes that's the Loophole!
Using Jacob's goodwill(Daughters Ghost) against him by forcing Ben's hand upon Jacob. Who willingly kills Jacob of his own free will("You have a choice").
Thing is I feel Jacob is well aware of this loophole, for whatever reason he wanted to die. Maybe he grows tired of the game, maybe someone takes his place or maybe this "Loophole" was a game Jacob was playing and isn't actually dead.
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Is Adulous his brother?
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Next season, he's played by Nathan Fillion if they don't renew Castle!! Just kidding.I'm sure glad ABC graced us with all those snippets in between the commercials so we can ponder questions such as: Where was Des? What's with all the flip flopping? Warning: don't let the characters wander into Heroesville. Kate over Juliet, seriously? Will Ben regain his mojo? Which Dharma station has the gun range where everyone acquired their mad skillz as marksmen? Is "Swan" actually the Tremors creature?Spectacularly entertaining, yes. Profound, maybe not so much.
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That wouldve been a much crazier ending... You have Locke seemingly fufilling his destiny, accomplishing his goal, 'winning' in the end by killing Jacob and THEN you see the scene where Ilana reveals to the Others that Locke is really dead... 'If this is Locke, who's in there???' How much more chilling would that have been, hearing Sun's line AFTER Locke kills Jacob??? And then you could do the whole ambiguous Juliet fade to white ending after (which wouldnt have seemed so much like a letdown cause you'd still be reeling from Locke being dead)... Good episode but could've been slightly better with better editing...
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that the same one from Wanted? Can it tell you who needs to die?
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Jacob and his people were nomads who lived in tents. I think the connections are pretty obvious. However, the writers are still leaving it wide open whether the story is ultimately about faith or science, and I think that's great. We don't know if Jacob and his enemy are like gods or fallen angles fighting a cosmic battle, or if they are like time travelers caught in some hellish vortex outside of time and space - struggling like Jack to find some scientific means to reset their fate.
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probably been said already, but Jacob is "the weaver" of the story - intervening in the lives of the Losties like threads in a pattern.
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last night. Been watching the show since the begining never really noticed it was that unfookingbelieveable.
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I guess he is the thread connecting them all.
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May 14, 2009 6:25:19 AM CDT
the ultimate mystery of LOST: Kate gets hotter, Jack gets uglier
by hamster factor
Jack is looking like absolute hell at this point, not sure if it's makeup or if Matthew Fox has taken up heavy partying and no sleep. Seriously, go back and look at Matthew Fox in season 1 - he looks about 10 years older now. On the other hand Kate just looks better and FUCKING BETTER every season.
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...the evil imposter been parading as Locke on and off all along?
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"But don't even fucking tell me Lost is anywhere near the league of BSG, The Wire, Sopranos, or Friday Night Lights."
Ok. Ok. BSG? Did ya see the first one? In the theatre..you know, the version where Baltar was decapitated? Riiight. Stop your dumb there...The Wire? Yeah, sure..Andy Sipowicz requests you return your perceived cutting edge edgy back...cause he has to pay off his debt to Norman Buntz and that is some serious temporal crazy right there idn't...what? what's that knower of all things TV righteous? yeah, ok...Steven Bochco called, and he told me (metaphorically) to tell you to tell David Simon to suck it.
I am sure you are to busy to do that as, at your wee age, every thingy thing you think you see is new and fresh as the mornin dew...but, I'll save ya the heart ache, sweetheart..and I will eat the snake's tail and make it full circle for ya, BSG. All this...(waving hand in a circle) ...all this has happened before ...and will happen again.
Jeeeezy Chreezy...Sopranos? Realllly? Wow..I think Michael Mann is gonna hava word with ya..and if not him..sure, Kevin Spacey as Mel, and Ken Wahl and Stephen J Canell and a show called
Wiseguy...or back farther when there was this movie with a guy who could throw a switchblade across the yard faster than a gun and was cooler than James Bond and his name was Flint who was also Dr. Sidney Schaefer...sorry, my nose hurts from snorting at my arrogance your dumb..Bad guy and shrink...yeah, well, won't say we hadn't seen it, cause we all love Billy Crystal and like...but, yeah, The Sopranos...DID IT ...SO...MUCH...BETTER....hmmph, ok. fook.
Fri day kni ligh? yeah...well let's make some shaky cam, scratchy what not about the questionable things that happen in sport and specifically west Tejas...cause, ya know, noone of it happens any where else in the world. Gods. ok. Peter Berg. yeah, sure. You hurt my gall bladder. I am callin every one who was doin they thing on the sooper good shite show...'White Shadow' and sayin..Peter Berg..wundermensch who gave the world the most heinous 'very bad things' and the to be most heinous thing 'Dune'...is giving you something you feature as 1) Original (Bruce Paltrow disagrees and guarantees you will never date his daughter...him and Gabe Kaplan.) and, B) realistic and insightful, ok, sure, a kid, killed a guy and went about his business...only worried would he get a hand job from the six foot two eyes of blue blonde who suggested him into it...yeah..and all that and all right. Thank God Aaron Peirce was on scene.
As I know about typin the dumb..I will mention...yours is not a superior intellect said anti-Joachim to anti-Khan..Though it is not the dumbest thing I have ever read...and mind ya, ya are competing with me ownself there..it is sure the dumbest thing I will read today...
Be good Dr. -
Only about 100 posts late Hamster Factor with the Loom of Fate catch...but you know what they say, great minds think alike.
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I don't think he's been directly controlling Locke up until Locke dies, but he has been influencing him. It seems to me all the intuition Locke was getting from the island was all an evil influence by "Esau" (for lack of a better name)
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They kind of hit you over the head with it - the loom being the opening shot and all. In that case I'm sure it's also been noted that the closing "LOST" title was black on white rather than white on black - a changing of the guard on the island? Jacob who was actually the good guy all along is no longer in control?
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...it's in the ashes that surround Jacob's cabin.
The ashes are around the cabin. A loop, if you will.
The "goodguys" observed that the "loop" had been broken, a path through the ash circle. Thus, your "loophole."
Whomever posited that the cabin wasn't Jacob's, at least not anymore, was very likely correct, and that bocaJ or Esau or whatever the hell his name is was confined to that location.
Yeah, I know, "loophole" likely has at least one other relevant meaning in the show. They just made it literal as well.
BTW. Anybody see "Young Tom?" I didn't.
MT
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May 14, 2009 6:45:57 AM CDT
was that a painting of Vincent on the wall of the cabin?
by hamster factor
anyone else notice the portrait of the dog in the burned cabin? and was Rose and Bernard's cabin Jacob's cabin?
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Young Tome is Kate's childhood friend in her flashback - the one that gives her the airplane. The same airplane that goes in the lunchbox that we see her steal in this episode... yep you gotta go back to season 1 to make these connections.
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May 14, 2009 7:03:02 AM CDT
Yeah, caught the plane that Young Kate's friend was playing with
by mistahtibbs
But that's not "Tom" as in Mr. Friendly...clearly.
My mistake. -
anyone else agree it didn't fit? The only flashback where Jacob didn't appear - and it just seemed poorly done all together - maybe they had to alter the script or edit it for time at the last minute?
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we need a talk back for this
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It was reported that there would be a "major" death from someone who was with the show since season one. Now Sayid didn't die, but is close to death. No one else from season one even came close. I assume it is Locke eventhough he died already, but revealed as still dead.
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I don't think anyone died, assuming Sayid and Juliet are still alive. But Juliet looked pretty messed up there in the last scene. She seemed desperate to detonate the bomb because she was all mangled and in pain. Of course, we have no idea what happens after the bomb goes off.
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first episode in 2010-recap from the previous season ending with elizabeth mitchell shouting "V ...for victory" and hits the bomb with the rock...all goes white...disoolve to a young blond(maggie grace?) in bed...she hears a noise and wakes up...goes into the bathroom...and finds(SPOILER ALERT)Ian Somerhalder taking a shower...he turns to her and say(with a smile)"Good morning..."...it's too bad mega shark didn't make an appearance, but they certainly jumped him tonight...faux john locke is actually -what?-the devil?...maybe Jacob is actually an observer who forgot to shave, since he can live forever, make others never age, appear everywwhere, make objects fly around the room, but watch out-he's not too good when it comes to kitchen knives in the gut...and the good news is, you can throw out all this stuff and never have to explain it because-WE JUST NUKED OURSELVES INTO AN(drum roll please)ALTERNATE REALITY!!!...If nothing else, would someone PLEASE take away J.J.(or should that be A.R.)Abrams copy of "What the $#%^$# Do We Know"?...
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When the show ends, I'm sure WWE would be glad to bring Darlton onboard
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Not only did Jacob not show up in Juliet's flashback, it also looked waaaay too modern.
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Penultimate episode resolves all threads dealing with all main characters. Final episode shows Jacob, Esau, Esua, Aldulous, Notlok and Richard Alpert back in 2004 manipulating the characters into getting onto Oceanic Flight 815. Fade to black and POOM - and that's only the opening tag scene.Pull back and we learn that all of LOST has been a vast interactive board game played by that rarest of mythical demi-gods, the inter-racial conjoined twins: Abob the Bright and Ebob the dark; Jacob and Richard and Smokey and Echo (tne non-Eko) are the roll-playing game aspect characters they play in the game. And it turns out that, though ancient, Abob and Ebob are mere children by godling standards. One is a sprite of order and fairness, the other an imp of chaos and mischief, though we never learn which is which. It turns out the world they preside over is actually called "Eirth" and it's one of a vast set of alternate planets, one for each year of time. So the godling playing the Richard Alpert role has to be on the 1977 and 2007 Eirths at the same time.Abob and Ebob's parent demigods order them to put away their game. We see them dismantle the island and put it in a trunk, removing a shiny disc numbered "6" from a slot in the Temple. Abob the bright complains that when the game is put away it resets and then has to be played over from the beginning and Ebob explains that that's for syndication purposes, so that when you play the game again and again, even though you've played it before, it's not just a review of what you've seen before, everything really is happening all over again in a closed temporal loop and the fun is in picking up all the foreshadowing and hints and clues along the way. Ebob tells Abob that there is no actual "ending" beyond "and then it all begins again".Abob asks why the last three parts are shorter than the first three, considering that's when all the good stuff happens, and Abob explains the importance of setting up the characters - even the red-dhirted Maguffin characters who only existed to die and show how dangerous the game could be.Again an offscreen voice urges them to put their game away and come down to dinner. Abob and Ebob head out a celestial door into a bright light.(commercial break)And from a reverse point of view wee see teenaged Aaron and his Uncle Walt step out into a dining room to join Kate and Sawyer for diner.>POOM< [lost]...
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Sorry, but thats gotta be a record, right? Not even 24 hours.
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therefore, Jacob is/was Keamy.
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Seriously, if it's revealed that it hasn't been the real Locke walking around the entire season it means that the real Locke's life was one fucking failure after another with no redemption. And that's fucking sad man. Just a pawn. Fuck the fuck off.
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By the way, about that Alpert-centric episode. What did we learn? that Richard Alpert lives a long time, that he has had different appearances at different times, that he was around both in 1977 and 2007 and that he is still more or less human and capable of gullibility and worry.Well, we believe he is an immortal - or at least has been since being reborn on the island. So longevity is an aspect of immortality. Being around during different years is an aspect of immortality - hey, being immortal means you're around in all years.The changes of appeanace? Well, he's immortal, his clothes aren't. If you go for years without changing your clothes, they will look like rags. if you go a year without cutting your hair, it will grow out long, if you stand in the rain, you will look wet.After teasing us with this character's importance for years, all they can come up with to tell us is that, yeah, he's long lived and he gets wet if it rains.Meanwhile there are still people here who think he's a time traveler instead of just someone who's been around for a long time. They could have clarified that. And of course they could have explained the eye liner. Hey, maybe he's actually an albino and the dark tan and dark circles around his eyes are because he never washes?All we really came away with from that supposedly Alpert-centric episode is that he may be a lot less all-knowing than we've been lead to believe.He's just a Black Rock pirate made immortal by the Island who cons people into thinking that he "knows things".In this ep, when notLocke challenges him and says "I think you just make these rules up as you go along" - did you notice that Richard didn't deny it?
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to the time he was loaded onto Flight 316, to the time he spent on a hot island in a metal box... I'm not sure of the exact time line, but don't you think he would have started to dry out, decay or dissicate? But based on his position when they rolled him out of the box, it's like rigor mortis hadn't even set in yet. What the heck kind of preservatives did they use on him, anyway?
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Considering how many flashbacks these guys have done, in so many different time periods, it's hard for me to believe they would mess that up. And the fact that there was no Jacob just stands out right away. What could this mean? We think we know Juliet's back story for the most part, but is there still something mysterious about her?
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... I'm gonna fly to Hawaii, break into the LOST offices, and beat Lindeloff and Cuse violently about the face and neck with a friggin' Battlestar Galactica model! Also, not a bad episode, but doesn't live up to the other season finales... everything kind of came off flat. I'm not saying shark-jumping occurred, but you could almost sense Fonzie sitting on a dock on the other side of the giant statue foot, hastily donning skis and a flotation device.
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No it wasn't weird, they were setting it up as to why she ended up letting go of sawyer, the whole I'm in love/you're in love with someone else thing. It was being used to set up as to why Juliet would let go. She was struggling with love/relationship issues which goes back to her parents divorce.
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Think about it. Two warring angels, one waiting eons for his retribution against the one who cast him off, humans as pawns (albeit with free will, which Jack specifically mentioned in this episode) used as the catalyst armies for one to defeat the other. The humans were given Eden and forsake it, Jacob is the God figure (in white) and his counterpart in black, hating him, swearing his revenge. Why do you think it's called "Lost?" We got the big reveal tonight.
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Then what is the significance of all the Egyptian stuff?
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The opening is crucial to the whole episode, when we first meet Jacob and a new guy (we’ll just call him Mr. X).
Jacob sits on the beach and believes man to be good and wishes to share the island with them. The other (Mr. X) despises man, perhaps believing them to be evil and desires to be left alone to the island.
So throughout their time on the island, Jacob continues to bring people to him, even despite Mr. X’s hatred of bringing them here. Mr. X figures killing Jacob will free the island of man and leave him alone, as he desires. Mr. X can't kill Jacob himself, but the loophole that will allow Jacob to be killed is for man to strike him down.
The loophole was for Mr. X to kill Jacob.
So Mr. X is determined to get himself a dead body to possess and manipulates a man who serves Jacob but been ignored by him, to kill him.
He has possessed and manipulated before - with Jack’s dad, Christian. We’ve seen him before countless times even though he was dead. Christian even helped Locke to leave the island and convinced him of what needed to be done, which would lead to Locke’s death and body being brought back to the island.
What’s most important to note, one of the revelations of the season 5 finale is, that “Jacob’s cabin” as we’ve always referred to it, didn’t happen to be Jacob’s cabin at all, but Mr. X’s. The ash on the ground surrounding the cabin seemed to keep him from leaving.
The only time we have seen anyone in this cabin, it has been either Christian or Claire (so I assume we can now all agree Claire is dead if this theory holds true). Now as Locke, Mr. X was able to leave the cabin and head off to finally kill Jacob.
I’m still a little confused by two things regarding this - for one, how was he able to cross the ash surrounding the cabin? They showed there was an opening, but who put it there or did he do it himself (didn’t know if this was from a previous episode)?
Also, does Mr. X “summon” the bodies to him? This would make sense when you consider the first season when we saw Christian walking around countless times without speaking.
But regardless, Locke this season was primarily a manipulator. He always made people do things for him - having Richard tell former Locke what to do to get off the island and how Locke will have to die, or convincing Ben to kill Jacob for him.
Ben killing Jacob though is the best moment for him though - it wouldn’t be bittersweet for Mr. X to kill Jacob himself, but to have one of his people do it - one of the men Jacob allowed to be on this island for so long, kill him. -
Found this online, and I think it's an interesting one:
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It's all about Egyptian mythology.
The guy in black at the beginning was the Egyptian God of Evil, Apep.
Jacob is the Egpytian God, Set (or Seth).
Richard Alpert is Ra.
Horas was Horus.
The statue was Taweret.
Smokie (cerebus) is a Djinn.
Set overthrew Apep. Apep thinks people are bad and should all be wiped out. Set thinks people can be redeemed and should be spared. This whole thing was a test between the Gods to determine the fate of humanity. And I think they failed.
Jacob (Set) never was in the cabin. He was always in the shadow of the statue. Apep was trapped in the cabin. The Egyptian God Ash protected Set from Apep. Apep couldn't leave the Ash ring, trapping him in the cabin. When the line was broken, he was freed to cause chaos. He tricked Ben into thinking he was Jacob and didn't let him see him to anger Ben enough to kill the real Jacob. Locke's dead, the zombie Locke is actually Apep (or maybe Smokie). As God of Evil, Apep controls Cerebus, not Jacob. Ben was in fact getting two opposing sets of orders. One from Jacob (via Ra) and one from Apep, via Smokie. So, he was in fact actually a patsy just like Locke.
Also, Set ruled part of Egpyt, while Horus ruled the other half. Horus thought Set was evil and they had a war. Sound familiar?
So, while Locke and Ben were patsies for Apep, Jacob (Set) countered by making Jack his patsy. He anticipated Apep's move and used Jack to "undo" it.
The bomb did change things. They cut an important scene in which Daniel compared time to a river. A small pebble thrown into it would not change the course of the river and it would correct itself. But a large boulder could make a big splash and alter the river. The bomb was to make a big splash. They should have left this in. The bomb changed things.
But, wiki Set and Apep. That's your story.
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As a result of a severe famine in Canaan, Jacob resettled his whole family in Egypt. catholic school finally pays off.
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Look at the last page of The Book of the Dead. The LOST creators certainly did ...
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what little magic this show had left was just dumped out of the ajira box. and for those those getting off on the religious bullshit, i recommend R. Crumbs new interpretation of genesis.
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Remember Locke with the backgammon game talking to Walt? There must be two, la la la, a white side and a black side ... la la la? Did you all forget? White/Black, two sides of the battle ... opponents ... ? Hmmm?
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Not another show that's going into religion. That's the worst plan in the world - "Why's all this mystical stuff happening? COULD IT BE GOD?" JOURNEYMAN, QUANTUM LEAP, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, EARLY EDITION, JOHN DOE, etc. It's crap. I hope religion isn't the cause of it all or I'm seriously going to be pissed.
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no matter how hard he tries to do the right thing, he drops the ball
His momentary successes are offset by larger failures -
not nessessarly religion
more like what religions were based on -
... they won't simply use that as an explanation, refusing to answer, simply saying "Uh, it was all God." That's my concern. And it's what's looking likely. So I may quit the show if I get the sense that's where it's going . My time is too valuable for that crap.
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really? did you just notice that the show has always been about faith vs science from season 1? themes of religion and faith have been central since the beginning, BUT so have themes of science and reason. which one wins is still unknown. Just because they've created biblical parallels doesn't mean they're telling real bible stories. Jacob and Esau could very well be scientists who got trapped in some fucked up space/time loop with the island and have been desperate to escape and reset everything much like Jack - except they've been trapped for hundreds or thousands of years - essentially becoming immortal. Jack, the doctor and man of science, has finally found some faith in the idea of destiny, but he is still trying to solve the situation using science - i.e. an H bomb. Farady, who is the only one who may have actually figured out what the power of the island really is, had a journal full of physics and mathmatics. The point is, the show isn't one dimensional. I don't believe they will leave us like BSG with god and angels wrapped up in a neat bow. If anything it will still be up to us to decide between science or god as the driving force.
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All of these tales of religion being bandied about are really more of metaphors for the human condition than any sort of theocratic storytelling. Whether it's a Christian story, a Hebrew story or an Egyptian story, the song remains the same - man's free will to do what's right and good. That's not by-the-book religion, it's a morality tale. We're splitting hairs here, but it would seem to be that what Lindelof/Cuse have done is take several similarly-themed tales from a religious background and merged them together to give one clearer theme on the power of mankind to do good or evil. Just my two cents.
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Opening scene Jacob says "It only ends once, everything up until then, is just progress". Thoughts?
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OK someone said that the cabin was never Jacob's. If that's the case, then why did Ilana look for him there? She was sent by Jacob.
Next, someone way up said Ben was banished - not true! As Christian told Locke, LOCKE was supposed to move the island.
And, if evil Jacob is possessing dead people, then how could he possess Christian and Claire? Claire is definitely alive. Of course, that assumes that evil Jacob had something to do with Christian, which I don't believe now. Locke was doing fine until fake Locke tricked him in 2007 thru Richard. -
That seems like a logical idea when I see nothing but metal being pulled into a gapping hole in the ground. I found that hilarious.
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sounds like a repeating pattern or loop. Esau says it always ends the same way, and Jacob says it only ends once - meaning they are locked in a pattern that only progressively changes, but doesn't alter the ultimate outcome - until something dramatic comes along and breaks the cycle
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Farewell, sweet chest.
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don't believe it. did no one notice the red herring that Jacob was cooking at the beginning?
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May 14, 2009 9:27:27 AM CDT
I thought it was funny that even in the face of armageddon...
by mrhazard
Phil grabbed a gun and STILL tried to kill Sawyer... Man, what a ASSHOLE... Getting impaled was too nice of a death IMO...
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This season started off super strong, but once they got back to the 70's it went completely off the rails. Someone explain THIS to me: Sawyer and Kate are relatively the same age, right? So why is it that Sawyer tells Jack he could have gone to stop his dad killing his mom in the 70's, but when we see young Kate she's trying to steal a New Kids lunch box? What? The New Kids can time travel too? Fucking bullshit. Doc Brown should kick Damon Lindeloff's ass.
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I wouldn't call either of those mistakes. Well I do agree with you that Ben is definitely not banished, don't know who said that. But on the whole Ilana thing - we don't know what he told her to do. He might of told her go check the cabin, or prove to those that Locke is dead and that is not Locke walking around. Just becuase she went to the cabin, doesn't mean she was actually looking for Jacob but might have been going there to protect him. And why is Claire definitely alive? There isn't any proof of that at all. I've been pretty convinced she is dead. Or it could be that she was being manipulated when she was at the cabin and was sent to do something, I'll give you that. But considering what we know right now - it seems to suggest Claire is dead and we just don't know how yet.
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When we see young Kate, we see her in a flashback. It has nothing to do with what was going on in the present, it was a flashback of when she first met Jacob. That wasn't time traveling Kate. If that was supposed to be a joke - it was pretty bad.
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Yes. You're right it's a flashback. We see YOUNG JAMES at his parents' funeral in the seventies. We see YOUNG KATE at relatively the same age in the NINETIES. If that's the case how come they appear to be the same age when they're both adults, you fucking moron?
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Almost seems to me that fakeLocke is like the 1st Evil from Buffy. Can look like people who've died, manipulates people to do what it can't do, ie actually physically interact with them. Same type of thing they seem to be going for here. Jacob having been someone who cast him off the island, so now he's back for his revenge, which he was able to accomplish using Jacob's own cast off himself former follower.
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MrEko, Sawyer and Kate aren't anywhere near the same age. Are you serious? The two actors themselves are at least 10 years apart in age, and their characters are, too. 20s vs 30. Come on man. How old are you? You've got to be about 13 if you think everyone older than you is roughly the same age.
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The scene with her turning down some tea, and touching her tummy, was an indication that she's pregnant.
It was a pretty obvious call out. Not sure how it really fit with her nuking everybody.
I thought that the Juliet flashback was a really lazy and overly convenient plot device. "Uh ... how do we get her to agree to support Jack in nuking the island? Let's invent some character motivation we've never seen, that indicates she loves Sawyer too much to make him stay with her, or some tragic romantic crap like that!!"
Also thought it was disingenious to introduce Jacob as guy being retroactively added to the story, in the final episode. Popping up here and there with the same freaking haicut and 3 day beard, which really doesn't do anything to make you think it wasn't all slapped together and filmed over the course of a couple days (which of course it was, but it's always lazy when characters in flashbacks have exactly the same length of hair and facial growth).
I feel pretty disappointed by this one, actually. Just seemed so muddled, and I didn't buy for a minute why everybody would agree to go along with Jack nuking the island.
Richard has had all the mystery sucked out of his character now. Yeah he's old, but that's it...he doesn't seem to have any secrets, and any sense of mystery or menace has evaporated. He asks Jack for advice on whether to follow John Locke?
What happened to all of the other lostaways who were jumping around in time with Rose, Bernard, Sawyer, etc... did none of them survive the flaming arrows? Are Rose and Bernard the only ones left, living in the cabin that for some reason no one had ever seen?
yeah, whatever. It better get off to a good start in 8 months, because I really feel like this one was a let down. -
Very interesting theory, hadn't really thought about that at all. My only thought is, why would Fake Jacob appear to Ilana and tell her to get to the island?
My thought is that even if Esau/Blackie/Smokey/Whoever didn't appear as Jacob in all these important moments, he still went through a lot to get to the point where he could manipulate Ben...he had to orchestrate Alex's death, via Widmore sending the freighter with Keamy. He had to get all of these people to go back and time and some of them to get off the island, so that Locke could also leave the island. He had to get Ben to kill Locke so he could take's Locke's place and then get Ricardus to go find time traveling Real Locke and fix up his wound and tell him what he had to do. That is a lot to go through to get to the moment where Fake Locke can manipulate Ben into killing Jacob. -
What year was that? It looked like present-day, or the 90s...definitely not...how old would you say Juliet was? In her late 30s?
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Darltons offices are in Burback, California on the Disney lot, not Hawaii. The show is just shot there.
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That...was one of the best episodes of Lost. From the very first moment, I was utterly entranced. Amazing.
Everything was just perfect. The opening scene, the Jacob flashbacks, how 'The Incident' went down, Eeeevil Locke. And even the way it ended; we knew it was going to be an 'Oh shit, WTF?' moment they'd leave us with. And the great thing about that flash leading into the [POOM!]...is we now have NO FUCKING IDEA where S6 is even gonna' start. Or where it's gonna' go. Or WHEN or WHAT or WHERE it's gonna' be. I just stood up and applauded after. Great, great, great, great episode. -
Yes, because actors always play the ages they are in real life. It's pretty clear that Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Juliet, Hurley, Charlie, Anna Lucia, Libby, Sayid are all relatively the same age. Locke's older. Rose and Bernard are older. If James is 10 in 77 that'd make him 32 in the "present" of 1977 when he travels back from our time. If Kate is 10 in the 90's that would make her freaking 19 now. Do they really look like they have that much of an age difference between them? Do the math, smart guy.
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The arguments you're making are completely retarded.
How in high hell do you automatically assume that Kate and Sawyer are around the same age and then go on an all out fucking nerdrage when proven wrong?
There have been absolutely no solid indications as to their respective ages until last night and now that the show just presented a good idea as to their birth years, you bitch that it doesn't make sense?
You're the moron you narrowminded fuck. -
It has even more impact if you believe that it's Jacob and Esau because Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for food. And last night we have Jacob offering him food, as if he's pouring salt on the wound
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I can't remember who asked who, but someone asked someone if Walt had ever appeared some place that he wasn't supposed to be. And he has appeared on the island to Shannon and Locke. Maybe Jacob possesses the same ability.
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New kids were popular in the late 80's, early 90's. Lets say that Kate was 10 in that flashback as you've assumed and that it's 1990, that would make her 27 - 28...NOT NINETEEN.
"Do the math, smart guy." -
They are literary references. You can reference biblical stories in a non-religious way, it happens all the time and from what I can tell it's happening on Lost. Ignoring the bible as religious truth is fine with me but it's stupid to want to ignore it as a part of literature and history.
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First, Ilana went to the cabin with a rifle. It seemed pretty clear to me that Esau was being held capture there by the circle of ash. She wasn't going to see Jacob at the cabin. My theory was that she was going to force Esau's spirit into Locke's body so she could kill him.
Second, Ben said himself in last season's finale that the price he would pay for moving the island that he would have to leave and never return. So he was in fact banished, but the loophole of all the Oceanic six returning allowed him to return.
Third, it seems pretty clear Esau was the one to appear as Christian since Richard confirmed that the dead do not come back to life on the island. Esau doesn't appear to possess dead people, but take their form. Claire was never possessed by Esau. She looks to have been tricked by Esau to think he was her father, Christian, just like Esau tricked Locke to move the island and Richard to tell Locke to bring back the Oceanic Six and must die in order to do so, trick Richard into bringing him and Ben to Jacob, and tricking Ben into killing Jacob.
I think the loophole was the moving of the island and the return of the Oceanic Six. This allowed Ben to return to the island from his banishment and to kill Jacob. -
And why Jack could never ask Kate? What a let down on that thread. Feels like there was a bit of running around towards the end of the season, script wise, revising planned plot elements that were supposed to play out and which they had been hinting at all along (what happened to Aaron, what the big deal was about Kate helping Clementine, who Richard is, who Aaron could be... ).
Oh, and don't forget the lame explanation Ben gave Locke for why it appeared that he knew who and what Aaron was and what was going on in the cabin with the invisible dude in the chair. "I only pretended I knew what was going on, John, because I was embarrassed" ??? Really?
No, I think they pulled the reins in mid way through this season, and decided they'd pick a slightly different path towards the finale. I think the story is going to be substantially the same, but the intro of Jacob and the lamely tied threads and out of no where character motivations really seem to indicate that they had to write themselves out of a corner at some point.
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Look, GLBT. I don't know
how they do things down in Juarez...
but here in Texas we have
a little something called pride.
Understand?
Offering up a nice older EXTRA lady as Juliet... is a disgrace to you, me
and the entire Aintitcool State...
Gods all mighty, just once...lostboy...break, break, break... dive away from your wanker nature.
Gods. I give you the finger while inverted..motherchoad. -
I think it's reasonable to say Sawyer is 5 to 10 years older than Kate.
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2009-1990 = 19, genius. Although technically they travelled back from '08,right so you're right. I was wrong. She'd be 18. My apologies.
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Why did we see Jacob go to the Lostites and touch each of them?
My theory is so they can survive the sudden time shift and stay on the island and stop the Ben from killing him. Poor Miles. Guess we won't see him next season. Juilet as the black smoke is interesting. -
Are you saying Kate was ZERO years old in the flashback?
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Why the HELL are you spoiling the ending for Dark Tower?! Im on book five asshole.
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Since I've been such a negative nelly, was Ben's indignation when he finally met Jacob. Ben anything is always awesome. And Silas Adams at the beginning was great. And Hurley in the back of the cab with Jacob. Hurley really got the short shrift in the second part of this season. That was a bummer. Also loved Sun finding Charlie's ring, and Rose and Bernard telling everyone off.
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May 14, 2009 10:07:10 AM CDT
MrEko...you're either mentailly retarded or a horrible troll.
by ataxianthemagnificent
You're right, 2009-1990 is indeed 19, but your very own argument was that she was 10 at that time. She wasn't born in 1990...
19 + 10 = 29.
I mean...seriously? Are you that dense? -
May 14, 2009 10:07:25 AM CDT
MrEko...you're either mentally retarded or a horrible troll.
by ataxianthemagnificent
You're right, 2009-1990 is indeed 19, but your very own argument was that she was 10 at that time. She wasn't born in 1990...
19 + 10 = 29.
I mean...seriously? Are you that dense? -
i was sort of dissapointed.i REALLY expected more.Sure, obvioudly they left us STARVING for more-but DARL;TON team sure did alot of misdirection-claiming we would know what smokie was before this season ended! fuckers!
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That's what I get for posting when I've just woken up. But what about THIS! This flashback we saw was clearly set before Tom and Kate buried their time capsule. Does anyone remember the date on the cassette when they dug it up? I'd be very curious to see if it was dated in the 80's or 90's.
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You need to infer, but I think the inference is it's this "Esau" character
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In season 2 a bunch of kids were kidnapped from the tailies and 3 years later we still don't know where they are.
On another subject, I buy into the apep/set/horus theory, it fits the opening scene perfectly. -
42? He looks good for his age.
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I had the same thought, that it could be Sayid. But in Locke's dream didn't Horace say "You have to find ME?" and then Locke went to the pit of Dharma bodies and found the one in Horace's jump suit. So was dream Horace just being sneaky?
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was how it ended with the flash of light.I figured it to mean, the light side won.And, we saw jacob wearing wight, the other dude black-reminded me of the 2 smoke monster theory(black/white)-and the rocks,etc.otherwise...what i DIDN'T get was ther sayid thing. didn't she die another way? So, by seeing jacob in the past...was he changing things again? for a different outcome(one we havn't seen yet?)-becuase i thought sayid's chick was killed by gun after he left the island.
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May 14, 2009 10:13:38 AM CDT
Juliet's flashback was important
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
It showed Jacob didn't come to her in her life, that's why she's dead. She's not "part of the plan" or whatever. But then again Jacob seemed to bring Locke back to life after his fall all for what? I'm really pissed about how I feel like I've wasted my time with this show, the way they've fucking wasted Locke.
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... Living with... the living. I want to see Claire and Dead Charlie happily ever after. I want to see Dead Michael and Walt happily ever after. I want to see Dead Juliet (?) and Sawyer happily ever after. These people deserve their happy endings. I hope the show gives them that.
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I couldn't help but think of the opening to Cliffhanger, with Sawyer clinging to Juliet's hand..Okay. This finale may not of had the Oh My God moments of the flash forwards introduced at the end of season 3, or the island going poof last year, but I was greatly impressed at the continuing excellent job Jack Bender does in direction. The various plotlines were given just the right amount of time onscreen, edited brilliantly. Big screen honchos should study that episode as to how to construct a story. The man deserves an Emmy.
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of the main characters, she was not in need of redemption. But they gave her a flashback anyway to signify that while she isn't as flawed and in need of redemption as they are, she's still considered one of the main characters.
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No idea what is going on, but I loved it.
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i knew i'd seen him before!
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Debut album was in 1986. Not sure when the actual lunchbox was produced, but the year could have easily been 1987 or 1988, and I believe Sawyer is at least 10 years older than Kate. Lostpedia gives Sawyers date of birth as 1968. So he'd be 39, approximately, while kate, Born in 1977, would be 30, and would have been 12 in 1990. It works.
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I noticed that Jacob physically touched everyone he visited except for Sayid. The ones he did touch Jack, Kate, James, Hurley were on the original "list" given to Michael back in the finale of season 2? He also obviously touched Locke. Don't know if this means anything.
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I just don't see how Esau could be in the cabin...Bram told Lapidus that they need to show someone what is in the crate, so they'll know what they're up against. They are going to the cabin to find Jacob and show him Locke's body...they are followers of Jacob, they have to be, because Jacob lives in the shadow of the statue. When they get to the cabin Ilana finds the scrap of cloth with the statue on it. Jacob is seen weaving cloth so we know he left it. Ilana also says that Jacob hasn't been there for a while. He was able to leave because the ash had been disturbed. Jacob needs to see Locke's body to know that the Locke who is walking around the island is really Esau or whoever you want to call him. Esau's spirit is already in Locke's body.
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"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part."
I like that part about "nudging" things along. Also the hieroglyphs for the name include a leg/foot symbol and alternatively a Croc on a structure with a large square door in the front. Fascinating. -
yeah a *it was all god* ala bsg copout will will really piss me off.
But on a positive note for the most part and esp since most of the story is now being told in the present tense. Even when flashing between time frames.
This is the best writing, directing and character portrayal, ever on TV
So I have high hopes
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I'm still waiting to watch the final season. Don't spoil it for me.
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Lostpedia says Sawyer born in 1969, Kate born in 1977, Locke 1956, Hurley 1977, Sayid 1967 Doesn't say when Jack was born.
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It looked too much like Tawaret- in both the statue and the weavings of it in Jacob's tapestry.
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Upong further research, it does look like it could be a crocodile head. But it holds two ankhs like Tawaret does, like some sort of hybrid.
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Seems that's the running theme:
Esau couldn't kill Jacob...
Ben can't kill Widmore...
Jack couldn't kill Locke...(remember the gun 'click' from Season 4?)
But it seems 'loopholes' are available:
Locke used Sawyer to kill Cooper...
Widmore used Keamy to kill Alex...
Kate used her fine ass to kill my eyeballs! (Think I figured out Jack is a leg/ass man...Sawyer's a tit man).
Seriously though...Didn't Hibbs use Sawyer to kill an old enemy in Austrailia (who turned out NOT to be the 'real' Sawyer)? Wasn't Ben using Sayid to kill for him? The Others certainly used Michael to kill Ana (and, collaterally, Libby)...Ana to kill Shannon...Locke to kill Boone, and so on.
Can't wait to see where these 'rules' come from, and how they play into the final arc.
Welp...I'm off to Myrtle Beach for the weekend. Be back on Sunday...try not and let this talkback hit the white screen of death until I get back! Namaste! -
It looked like a croc mouth to me, what with the sharp teeth and all. Hippos don't have sharp teeth do they?
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So Locke falls out of the window and ends up paralyzed. Jacob comes over to a still Locke touches him and wakes him. Was Locke dead at this point? Did Jacob bring him back to life or was it just as it appeared he roused him and gave him encouragement? -
Edward James Olmos has been showing up drunk at the offices of the lost producers
He launches into a long boozy rendition of a *So Say We All Speach*
He then colapses into the arms of whomever is unfortunate enough to have not left the room.
He then demands a frakin job, passes out and is noted for mumbeling *best fraking job I ever had*
Word is he persona non grata at the UN...
Calls to Michael Hogan have been responded with *Leave me the frak alone* -
didn't see kevinwillis.net post
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2009-1990 = 19. And then + 10 because according to you she looked 10. 10+19=29. Genius.
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You have free will, you don't have to do what you've been manipulated into doing. You killed Jacob anyway. You failed the test, proving Jacob's brother right.
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This was the weekend *I* was supposed to go to Myrtle Beach for a week! Except this year, for the first time in like 20 years, we cancelled our beach trip to the same condo we've been going to in order to go to a different beach and get a house with other family members. I'm not too happy about breaking that tradition. But... had things been different, I'd have been at Myrtle Beach with you this weekend!
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Remember the episode where the Smoke Monster judged Ben?
Well, there was a heiroglyph of Egyptian god Anubis raising the Smoke Monster. Which means, that the Smoke Monster is the servant of Anubis. If the Smoke Monster told Ben to unequivocally follow "Locke" ("Locke" being the mysterious evil guy), could that mean that mysterious evil guy is Anubis?
If that's true, then could Jacob be Ra? What if they are two gods locked in an eternal struggle for power, looking for a "loophole" out of it? After all, when we were first introduced to the two men at the beginning of the episode, one was wearing black... the other white. Darkness vs. Light. -
http://tinyurl.com/q2yhyy And here: http://tinyurl.com/o5g59l The hat/headdress matches too.
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it was gator faced...
What does it mean? -
...and why is Richard always so clean-cut like Jeff Probst? When they first started showing him, he was a lot grungier.
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We're seeing all this different imagery...Greek lettering on Jacob's quilt thing, Egypt, Judeo-Christian. Good vs. Evil is the oldest story in the world...so maybe we're being shown these two people who have been all those different gods and Biblical characters and Greeks and Egyptians and etc...they are the basis for all these stories and it's all going down on the island.
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Maybe it was Jacob in the cabin originally, but it wasn't him when Locke and Ben went in there. It was clearly Esau in there at that point.
I don't know if was originally Jacob since Ilana did see Jacob recently and how could he visit her if he was trapped in the cabin, and why would she be surprised if he was gone. Just because they stopped at the cabin doesn't mean that they were bring Locke to the person at the cabin or that they weren't stopping there first or that Jacob was the person they were bringing Locke to (remember Laputis did say the people who claim to be the good guys are usually not). -
Otherwise we would have seen Smokey BECOME Alex. Smokey does not just teleport. We've never seen that happen. That said, there's plenty of evidence to support Smokey being all the dead people we've seen before. I just don't buy it. I think Smokey is just an entity that judges lost souls. Alex and other Manipulated Dead are Jacob's brother. Jacob can manipulate the living- help them, guide them, give them a choice. Esau can manipulate the dead.
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... Greek, Egyptian, Judeo-Christian. Just as the Island is the basis for all myths and legends about magic Islands (Garden of Eden, Atlantis, Avalon, etc).
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That is one fucked up statue.
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Seriously, where do you people come up with this stuff?
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we have to wait of The Bale's take on the finale
Only then will we know which way to lemming -
See my post 3 above yours about Evil Guy being Anubis, and Jacob being Ra.
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Because I missed it somehow.
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Juliet is hotter
even if she is kinda smirky
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May 14, 2009 10:57:26 AM CDT
Terry OQuinn did speculate that maybe the Island was the Devil
by d.vader
Looks like he was right.
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I'm with this guy's review of the finale, the religious stuff is too much:
http://tinyurl.com/omfqst -
it was kinda flat and square as compared to Juliet's
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She delivers babies, treats wounds, gets down and dirty as a grease monkey, and still cleans up nice to make you dinner. The girl is fucking awesome.
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After much consideration, I have to agree with those that say the bright flash at the end was not the nuke going off, but rather one final time-shift sending the '77-losties back to the 'present'...and they are the ones Jacob was referring to as "coming".
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I was sort of building off of your post/agreeing with it and adding more. I think they could be Anubis and Ra and Jacob and Esau and whoever else you can think of. God and Satan...all those stories through the ages
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http://tinyurl.com/osfjxq Notice how its an all-seeing-eye, and its rays of light, or its focal points, ALL lead to what looks to be a figure, or a person. Could EACH of those figures, figures who have a thread connecting them back to the eye, represent our characters? Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Locke, Sun, Jin? I think I counted 17 threads. That could leave Ben, Richard, Juliet, Desmond, Claire, Aaron, Walt? Others?
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But the second tapestry combines some of those threads into one figure. So there actually look to be maybe 10 figures, not 17. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Jin, Sun, Locke... Ben, Juliet? Or Claire and Aaron? Or Claire and Desmond?
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May 14, 2009 11:03:40 AM CDT
A wild theory: Jacob has been alive all along -- through Jack
by prof. pop-cult
My crazy guess: Jack died in the original 815 plane crash. Jacob has possessed his spirit ever since. We have never known the real Jack Sheppard.Maybe the final season will start right at the crash of 815. Except this time, everybody has retained their memories from their experiences in the original "prime" timeline. But all the people from the plane who eventually died on the island are not back from the dead -- they are mysteriously gone.
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I think that's a fair way to look at it. I like where this is headed--although... Stargate, anyone?
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I think I read that somewhere. Also, Rose and Bernard are not living in Jacob's cabin, as Horace probably hasn't built it yet. But the scene with Rose and Bernard, immediately being followed by Illana going to Jacob's cabin, sure made it confusing and seemed to connect the two.
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What is with all the J names? John, Jack, James, Jin, Juliette, Jacob. Just a wierd coincidence?
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You mean, like in the Bible?
Jacob, Job, John, Joshua, Jesus, Jonah, etc etc -
Please ignore some of the facts in the review. As you guys are already aware of them. I just copy and pasted from something I wrote for friends who are casual viewers.
Two sides one is light, one is dark. John Locke to Walt on the beach in the pilot, while explaining the rules of backgammon.
Wow! Immediately we are given the most important scene in lost history: A man dressed in white and a man dressed in dark. They talk about how Jacob, the man in light is always bringing people there but all they do is cause destruction. Jacob disagrees and feels its progress. This scene takes place in 1845 – the Black Rock, which has been brought to the Island by Jacob, is floating in the background. We also see the statue from the front briefly. The statue is revealed to be Taweret: the Egyptian God of maternity and child birth. Perhaps the destruction of the statue has something to do with the pregnancy issues on the island?
I think Jacob weaving was no coincidence. Later on in the episode he talks about how the cloth he was making took a tremendous amount of time and effort. I immediately thought of the survivors and how their destinies were weaved together their entire lives. As soon as the man in dark who I will refer to as “Esau”, in the bible Jacob and Esau are brothers with a heated rivalry. We all know names on this show are not given by coincidence.
“Esau” tells Jacob he wants to kill him and one day will find a loophole. I immediately thought “great, John is bad.” I think it’s pretty clear that this war between the two for the island has been going on throughout all of time. Jacob keeps bringing people to the island and argues that their work is progress. It’s pretty clear that there is a set of rules and neither Jacob nor “Esau” can physically “kill” each other. I think that this specific day was the day that Richard Alpert arrived on the island. Yeah I was hoping he was thousands of year’s old/ancient Egyptian. His initials are RA, which is the Egyptian sun God. But between this scene and the scene last week when Richard was working on the black rock model in the bottle. I’m going to say he arrived in 1845 and was most likely a slave on the ship. Since Magnus Hanso – the great grandfather of Alvar Hanso – the creator of the Dharma Initiative was the captain.
Throughout the episode we see Jacob appear and touch our survivors. Foreshadowing to me that they will be his soldiers in a war to come of sorts. He does not visit Juliet. Is it a coincidence that she ended up dead by the end of the episode then? Each moment was pivotal in the survivor’s life. Sayid – the day Nadia died which leads to him agreeing to become Ben’s hired gun. Jack – during the surgery that he told Kate about when they first met on the beach and she stitched him up. Sun and Jin – the day of their marriage. We see him heal Ilana and ask for her help. We see him literally save John Locke after his father pushes him out a window and tells him I’m sorry this happened to you, and everything will be fine. He gives Sawyer a pen so he can finish his letter to the real Mr. Sawyer. He visits young Kate with her childhood friend Tom, who in season 1 we see die when he helps her visit her dying mother.
Hurley’s visit to me was the most important. It’s the first time I felt everyone had a choice. Free will did indeed existence. Jacob does not reveal who he is. He just tells Hurley about Ajira flight 316 and that he doesn’t need to do anything he doesn’t want to do. Who’s guitar? Just like the drive shaft ring that Sun picks up by Aaron’s old crib, it belongs to Charlie. The idea of free will/choice existing makes this one of the most important moments in the finale.
1977 - Nothing too much to say honestly. In my mind we got everything that the history of the island has always told us has happened: The incident. Miles I think got it right: Jack thinks he can change things with the bomb. But in reality Jack has always thought he could change things with the bomb, but it was this thought/action that always caused the incident in the first place! I’m more curious about the aftermath of the incident. We know Miles father has to lose his arm, because he appears in the swan orientation film later on with one arm. This seemed to start happening last night. I think Radzinsky becomes ridden with guilt for refusing to listen to Chang. He ends up choosing to be the Swan’s first button pusher. Which leads to Kelvin Iman becoming his partner, which leads to Desmond, which leads to 815 crashing. I think the fate of Radzinsky is a fill in the blanks type. We can assume he will push the button and eventually go insane and blow his brains out. The end. What exactly happened to the survivors when Juliet heroically activated the bomb at the bottom? More on this in my prediction for where we go from here.
Everyone thinks the game changer is that John Locke is dead and “Esau” has disguised himself as him. Pretty badass. Makes perfect sense if he can’t kill Jacob himself. Who better a disguise then John? John was made leader of the others. Pretend to be John/the leader and make Richard lead you to Jacob. Knowing of Ben’s jealousy for John’s communion with the island – start planting the seed in Ben’s head to make him kill Jacob. To me the ultimate game changer or long con was this: Jacob has not been in the cabin for a loooooong time.
This means that when Ben took John to the cabin the first time and he saw a flash of an old man saying, “Help Me.” This was not Jacob. This was “Esau.” Jacob was actually holding “Esau” prisoner in the cabin! I think when Ben/John first go to the cabin, and John picks up some of the ash, this breaks the circle keeping “Esau” prisoner. Which means – the “apparitions” of Claire and Christian Shepherd and Alex are “bad/Esau.” “Esau” has been guiding John Locke to make sure he left the island knowing he would die. So he could then scan his body and be able to pretend to be John to manipulate people towards his goal of killing Jacob. I believe “Esau” tried to do this to Mr. Eko when he came to Eko as his brother Yemi. But Eko refused to accept his sins. He told “Esau” that he did what he had to do in order to survive. Knowing Eko was no longer going to be a candidate “Esau” killed him. “Esau” as Locke tells Richard to tell alive Locke he has to leave and die. This is done to ensure that Locke’s corpse will come back so “Esau” can pretend to be John. More on this in my prediction for where we go from here.
So then we get to the final confrontation. “Esau” disguised as John hands Ben the knife. Jacob tells Ben he can do what “Esau” asks. Or he can choose not to. Again, a reminder of free will. When Ben pours his heart and soul to Jacob about being neglected we get the line of the year in return – Jacob: “What about you?” With that Ben stabs Jacob. While Jacob is “dying” he says, “they’re coming.” Let me quickly sum up Ben in my view: a pawn. An embarrassed, jealous, lying pawn. Who got exactly what he dished out. The master manipulator got manipulated. I’d like to think he will have some sort of redemption before the series ends. But who knows perhaps he’ll stay loyal to “Esau” the entire time.
Prediction on where we go from here: When Jacob says “they’re coming” while dying I think he is talking about the survivors in 1977. When Juliet activates the bomb I think it will cause an electromagnetic flash that will bring Jack, Jin, Miles, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Rose, Bernard, and yes Vincent back to the present. The creators have said Stephen King’s the Stand is a huge influence. I think we are going to now see the ultimate battle of good and evil. Jacob’s soldiers are on their way back.
Thoughts on John Locke: I think my favorite character has more of a role to play. The destiny of John Locke was fulfilled. He sacrificed himself to make sure everyone returned. More importantly he made Jack Shepherd into a believer. In season 1 Claire had a vision of John. In that vision John had a dark eye and light eye. When Eko tells John he saw a monster, John reveals he saw something different – a bright light. Get ready for Esau vs. Jacob round 2 – Locke vs. Locke. I think the spirit of Jacob is going to go into John’s body. Everything we need to learn about Jacob will be spoken through John next year. He will now be Jacob’s vessel.
The man of Faith (John), the man of science (Jack) will become one. I think “Esau” will only impersonate John for so long. On a side note: I think it’s clear Widmore might be in some sort of alliance with “Esau.” He wanted to make sure John got back to that island because of the war that is coming. He felt John needed to be on the island to make sure the right side won. Illana and the rest of the shadow of the statue people told Miles not to go on Widmore’s boat. They are the good guys and will win. I think they are the good guys. If they don’t want Miles to be with Charles Widmore then to me this means Widmore is against Jacob. Widmore most likely knows John will die in the process of bringing the oceanic 6 back, which is why he wants him to go to the island. So “Esau” can pretend to be him and get to kill Jacob.
Damon Lindenlof and Carlton Cuse are huge star war fans. I think we will get the ultimate father son showdown. “Esau” takes the form of whoever will help him in the situation. He was John to manipulate Richard and Ben for the whereabouts and death of Jacob. I think the ultimate showdown will be “Esau” once again becoming Christian Shepherd and confronting Jack. Think Darth Vader vs. Luke. John/Jacob will be in Jack’s corner. Think Obi Wan Kenobi.
This would work considering the huge father/son issues all of these characters have.
*The latin/answer to “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” that Richard said translates to“He who will protect/save us all.”
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Very selfish of Jack. And very stupid of Kate to go along with it, knowing that not only would she wake up in shackles, but that she would never have met Jack or Sawyer. At least she wasn't the one who died. I lifted my ban on watching Lost for one night, and couldn't make sense of all the bullshit. The Jacob stuff was interesting, but anyone with any common sense knows that a bomb explodes. It doesn't reverse time. I have yet to see a rational explanation for that one, unless it has something to do with electromagnetism.
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Hitting a nuke with a rock until it explodes in your face??? That's GANGSTA... Again, I used to hate Juliet back in Season 3 but she over time became one of the most likeable characters in the whole series... Because of that tho, she's a good character to kill off...
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I still say the guitar case is full of food.
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"Hitting a nuke with a rock until it explodes in your face??" That is pretty badass. Badass and beautiful. I hope she isn't really gone.
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Regarding the bomb...I think "the incident" is essentlally what we see. A giant magnetic disturbance magnified by the exploding of a hydrogen bomb. This not only results in the need for a button that needs to be pushed at regular intervals to save the world, but the sheer force of the event causes all the time travelers to jump forward to their own time.
Second. I think Jacob is Jesus. Or at least the Lost equivalent. Think about it. He's in charge of the island. He goes out of his way to get the Losties back there so they can blow up the Swan and so that "Locke" can be led to him. When Ben asks Jacob "what about me?" Jacobs response is one that only encourages Ben to kill him.
Jesus himself actively encouraged the Pharisees to take him into custody. His actions on the week of his crucifixion were all designed for one reason - he needed to die.
It's the same with Jacob. He knew he had to die so he could save them all.
As for what Jacob and Esau actually are...the biblical references suggest that they are either angels or people tasked by a greater power to protect the island.
Having said that, when Jacob said "they're coming" I half expected a massive space ship to drop out of the sky :P
The most interesting thing to me is the first scene with Jacob and "Esau" because it suggests that Jacob has been bringing people to the island for some time, but it's alwayys ended with destruction. It's as if he's testing humanity for some purpose and the Losties are just the latest incarnation of that.
All of this has happened before....ok so that;s a Galactica reference but it does remind me of the Galactica finale, with the in-heads talking about how humans and cylons haven't been able to break the cycle of death despite God's best efforts.
What if something similar is happening here? What if that ship is carrying Richard and he was the only one who survived whatever happened? What if it's all just a game between Jacob and Esau? Esau is sick of the game. Sick of Jacob bringing people to the island to test their worthiness or whatever.
So when he gets Ben to kill Jacob the cycle is suddenly broken. For centuries it's been a stalemate between the two, between good and evil, but evil has suddenly taken a step towards evil. But going back to the Jesus idea, maybe Jacob planned to die so he could save them all and end the game once and for all? -
...is redemption for John Locke. Out of all the characters on the show, he's had it the worst. All of the Oceanic 6 have found some measure of peace, on the Island and off, but Locke clearly hasn't. He's been screwed by fate, played/conned by his father/Ben/Bocaj, hasn't had resolution on any of his life's problems. . .which has all resulted in him dying a broken man, alone and betrayed by everything.
I gotta say, that's damn depressing. There should be some kind of redemption/salvation for a man who's been screwed by life so many times. If Locke-Prime doesn't return and have something genuinely good happen to him, I'm going to be kind of let down and disappointed. -
Everybody in the show at the end would rather start from square one and never have Flight 815 crash except for her... I mean everytime she argued with Jack about not using the nuke to 'fix' things I kept thinking does Kate forget all the people who have DIED on the show as a result of 815 crashing??? But she escaped prison, got some dick, and played mommy to a child she kidnapped so it's all good??? Seriously, Kate has turned into one of the most unlikable characters on the show... With that being said, Lost does a good job of turning likable characters into unlikable ones and vice versa...
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Remember that Jacob is only in charge of the island,so 'they' could be the owners/creator of the island.
Or he's referring to the 77ers that are to come back to 07, or it's simply Ilana's group. -
I'm pretty sure that Miles' line about the incident wasn't a coincidence. I doubt that they can change the future, but in fact cause the incident. Miles seemed to know a good deal from what Faraday had told them, and was not sold on Faraday's new hope about variables. Whatever happened when the bomb exploded will cause The Swan to be built the way we know and love and return the people from 'the future' to where they belong.
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She's honestly the only reason I tuned in to the finale, because I feared it would be her last time on the show. I know lots of women in real life like Kate, who were handed unfair circumstance after unfair circumstance and when they finally take their destiny into their own hands, they end up in trouble with the law. I was worried Kate was the one to die, especially when I heard there was going to be 'rending of garments' for the person who would die.
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What is Jacobs plan? He tries to get Hurley back to the island, but tells Kate to give up her life of crime, which of course if she did would mean she would never go to the island in the first place.
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I seriously love this show, but after last night I am done trying to come up with theories. Let’s all be honest, at this point the show could be about anything. I was convinced that Jack was Jacob, and that looks like a fail. There are just way too many scenes from past episodes to analyze, though I love reading all your theories.
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Its heartbreaking to think he was manipulated into being killed- and THAT's it! I love Terry OQuinn, but I love the character of Locke. I do NOT want to see the only iteration of Locke being OQuinn playing him as some possessed person. Locke the character needs a real resolution. He deserves better for the sacrifices he's given.
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I doubt will ever find out how that shark got the Dharma tattoo... or will we?
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Furthering my Anubis/Ra theory, here's a screengrab of Jacob's tapestry (thanks D.Vader):
http://tinyurl.com/osfjxq
If you look closely, it's rays of light emanating from the Eye of Ra, touching different people! Jacob/Ra reaching out to each of the Losties!
Lookup an image of the Eye of Ra (god of sun/light/life) so you can judge for yourself!
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-Ilana and Bram were part of the group that came before Richie's one.
-Miles was right when he said nuking the swan was indeed the 'incident'.
-Someone has an idea for what's in the guitar case? -
True that. Amazing how, even here in the last season finale, we STILL can't exactly figure out what the show is about. We've got ideas and theories, but nothing concrete. Is it about good vs evil? Redemption? Getting a second chance? Science vs Faith? Free Will vs Destiny? Ancient mythology? The plight of humanity?!?
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That's all great, but, if Jacob's spirit goes into dead Locke's body, where's the blood going to come from? It's all embalming fluid!
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in lost timeslot their playing pirates of the carribean 2.I thought that was kinda funny.
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over all the girls on the show.
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May 14, 2009 11:41:40 AM CDT
Yeah its clear that Locke, Michael, Ben, and others have...
by hollywoodhellraiser
been duped by the island evil side. Its unclear if Jack being duped as well.
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I keep thinking back to the end of "The Shape of Things to Come" in Season 4, when Ben appears in Widmore's home to tell him he's going to kill Penny. Why didn't Ben just kill Widmore then when he had the chance? Because he can't! Rules! How is that related to Jacob and the nameless Esau? ARE THEY THE SAME?!
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You have a few months.
Now we're all bible-happy after watching that finale. And paradise Lost is another one to read. But I still say The Tempest has too many parallels to be ignored.
Re: MYST...it had yet another Deadwood actor, Brad Dourif.
It was NOT a herring.
Esau=CAPTAIN BIRD, according to the credits, right? Sure I thought of Esau too, but if he's called Captain Bird why are we making up names for him?
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'sides', I think the people who run it make the call.
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I never caught up to all the crap I was supposed to read in season one. Every time I turn around more and more book references. TV's not supposed to be about reading. *grumble*
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was the sub captain.
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...I'm shocked that no one has mentioned Jacob's side job as a goon for Jackie Treehorn.
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Awesome.
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Was Jacob saying that to Hurley a clue for the rest of us wondering if "Locke" really killed him? I hope we don't have to wait until the final episode to see more about those two. Hard enough to wait until next season opener, once it starts they need to start bringing on the answers and not wait until the last two hours to solve everything. I, for one, think Jacob will be back in more than just flashbacks.
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"Obviously, you're not a golfer."
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just wiki lost and in 6 months of reading, you'll be caught up ;p
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This matches really well.
"In Egyptian mythology, Apep (also spelled Apepi, and Aapep, or Apophis in Greek) was an evil demon, the deification of darkness and chaos, and thus opponent of light and Ma'at (order/truth), whose existence was believed about from the Middle Kingdom onwards.
Development
Apep formed part of the more complex cosmic system resulting from the identification of Ra as Atum, i.e. the creation of Atum-Ra, and the subsequent merging of the Ogdoad and Ennead systems. Consequently, since Atum-Ra, who was later referred to simply as Ra, was the solar deity, bringer of light, and thus the upholder of Ma'at, Apep was viewed as the greatest enemy of Ra, and thus was given the title Enemy of Ra.
As the personification of all that was evil, Apep was seen as a giant snake, crocodile, serpent, or in later years, in a few cases, as a dragon, leading to titles such as Serpent from the Nile, and Evil lizard. Indeed, his name is thought to translate roughly as Great snake. Some elaborations even said that he stretched 16 yards in length and had a head made of flint.
Apep's name can also mean (he who was) spat out; the Romans referred to Apep by this translation of his name.
Apparently because of the spat out interpretation of the name Apep, it was said that he had been formed by Neith, who had been the deification of the primordial waters in the Ennead, from a length of spit she had spat at Nu, the deification of the primordial waters in the Ogdoad. Some subsequent commentators speculated that Apep must have been an earlier creator, and chief god, thus explaining why he had so much enmity towards Ra, but evidence for such a conclusion is slight.
After the end of the Middle Kingdom, the foreign Hyksos, now rulers over Egypt, chose Set, as their favourite deity, since he had been protector of Ra, and was associated with Lower Egypt, where their power base was. Consequently, because the foreign overlords were hated by nationalistic groups, Set became gradually demonised, and started being thought of as an evil god. Indeed, because of the extreme level of nationalism and xenophobia, Set eventually became thought of as the god of evil, and gradually took on all the characteristics of Apep. Consequently, Apep's identity was eventually entirely subsumed by that of Set.
Battles with Ra
Tales of Apep's battles against Ra were elaborated during the New Kingdom. Since nearly everyone can see that the sun is not attacked by a giant snake during the day, every day, story tellers said that Apep must lie just below the horizon. This appropriately made him a part of the underworld, which attacked the sun each night. In some stories Apep waited for Ra in a western mountain called Bakhu, where the sun set, and in others Apep lurked just before dawn, in the Tenth region of the Night. The wide range of Apep's possible location gaining it the title World Encircler. It was thought that his terrifying roar would cause the underworld to rumble. Myths sometimes say that Apep was trapped there, because he had been the previous chief god and suffered a coup d'etat by Ra, or because he was evil and had been imprisoned.
In his battles, Apep was thought to use a magical gaze to hypnotise Ra and his entourage, attempting to devour them whilst choking the river on which they travelled through the underworld with his coils. Sometimes Apep had assistance from other demons, named Sebau and Nak. Ra was assisted by a number of defenders who travelled with him, the most powerful being Set, who sat at the helm. Other gods who feature in later tales as the defenders include fierce warriors such as Mehen, Serket, Maahes, and Bast, together with Shu.
In a bid to explain natural phenomona it was said that occasionally Apep got the upper hand. The damage to order caused thunderstorms and earthquakes. Indeed: it was even thought that sometimes Apep actually managed to swallow Ra during the day, causing a solar eclipse, but since Ra's defenders quickly cut him free of Apep, the eclipse always ended within a few minutes. On the occasions when Apep was said to have been killed, he was able to return each night (since he lived in the world of the dead already). In Atenism it is Aten who kills the monster, obviously, since Aten is the only god in the belief system.
Worship
Apep was not so much worshipped, as worshipped against. His defeat each night, in favour of Ra, was thought to be ensured by the prayers of the Egyptian priests and worshipers at temples. The Egyptians practiced a number of rituals and superstitions that were thought to ward off Apep, and aid Ra to continue his journey across the sky.
In an annual rite, called the Banishing of Apep, priests would build an effigy of Apep that was thought to contain all of the evil and darkness in Egypt, and burn it to protect everyone from Apep's influence for another year, in a similar manner to modern rituals such as Zozobra.
The Egyptian priests even had a detailed guide to fighting Apep, referred to as The Books of Overthrowing Apep or (in Greek) the Book of Apophis. The chapters described a gradual process of dismemberment and disposal, and include:
* Spitting Upon Apep
* Defiling Apep with the Left Foot
* Taking a Lance to Smite Apep
* Fettering Apep
* Taking a Knife to Smite Apep
* Putting Fire Upon Apep
In addition to stories about Apep's defeats, this guide had instructions for making wax models, or small drawings, of the serpent, which would be spat on, mutilated and burnt, whilst reciting spells that would aid Ra. Fearing that even the image of Apep could give power to the demon, any rendering would always include another deity to subdue the monster.
As Apep was thought to live in the underworld, he was sometimes thought of as an Eater-up of Souls. Thus the dead also needed protection, so they were sometimes buried with spells that could destroy Apep. The Book of the Dead frequently described occasions when Ra defeated of Apep." fromhttp://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/apep.php -
Where are the Paradise Lost parallels, exactly? If anything I'd say it's more like Paradise Regained. Still a bit of a stretch but if I had to throw out a Milton reference ...
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Those that thought that the DI was going to be important for the show, bad news: it was a red herring. Time travel? Red herring. Electromagnetism? Red herring.
Many people are looking at the Hydrogen Bomb as some form of "Reset Button" for the writers, but I think that the scenes with Jacob have accomplished more than that: they have showed us that we don't have the SLIGHTEST idea of what to expect from this show. People often refer to the "gamechanger" in these Finales. Well, the gamechanger was realizing that the show was not indeed about the 815-ers (like Darlton keep going on and on about), but rather this global chess game between Esau and Jacob. I feel like the rug had just been securely pulled out from under us, moreso than when Juliet was able to detonate the bomb. -
It really is. Though previous seasons do end on cliffhangers, but they also give you a big revelation that tells of things to come. This season's ending doesn't have that game-changing revelation. I have absolutely no idea what direction the final season is going to go. Anything can happen after season 5. They didn't give us any clue. Weak. No sense of satisfaction.
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Thanks Hobo.
P.S. Duh. -
Really? That's crazy talk.
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May 14, 2009 11:59:04 AM CDT
They pulled a Randall Flagg with Locke
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
In the Dark Tower series, Flagg was built up for seven books and even other Stephen King books not in the dark towers series as this ageless time and dimensional travelling demon or wizard of some sort but he actually just shows up for one chapter to get killed by a giant spider that shits its pants that was only just recently introduced in the last book. It was bullshit just like losts treatment of Locke is bullshit, after years of build up and being the one character who tried to follow his "Destiny" on the island. Cuse and Lindeloff are alot like Stephen King, great at setting up a mystery or good idea, not being able to do shit with it afterward. I just now put my finger on why I didn't like this season. The beginning of it dealt with the time travel and oceanic six, except the time travel showed us that there is only one timeline and it is set in stone, everything that happened happened. So what is the big deal with the oceanic six leaving when it's "what happened". We're told "they're not supposed to" or they have a destiny they're running from or whatnot, but there is no such thing in an unchangeable timeline. I feel that really cut the legs out from under any tension or drama they could have had from that. And how could Ben possibly have any "choice" in killing Jacob if what happened happened. There is no free will in the lost universe, unless Jack actually did fix the incident with the bomb, I don't see that happening though. You can't say the future isn't written while the past is either, because Jack living his present out in the past wouldn't make sense that way. The time travel really killed a lot of my interest in this show I think. Not because of it being scifi or anything, it just didn't really work well with what came before. If the show had been about it from the beginning that might have been different. Also I just thought the jumping around to show "oh here's the french lady," and crap like that was a little ham fisted.
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That was a fantastic episode!!!
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May 14, 2009 12:08:19 PM CDT
Who honestly thinks there will be a love triangle next season?
by d.vader
Bullshit. I think its obvious that Sawyer deeply loved and cared for Juliet. There is absolutely NO way he's going to just get over her and go to Kate. No freakin' way. Next season, if time doesn't get rebooted, will deal with a defeated and heartbroken Sawyer, one angry at the world, who doesn't care for his own life anymore, who will probably willingly give it to save his friends, bc he has nothing to live for.
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Kids, I have a hell of a theory that I'll have to post later, but in summary, I think we're in for a Harry Potter type of a story - where the touch from Jacob not only 'nudges' but actually passes a part of him that will need to be assembled to resurrect him...quite possibly in the body of John Locke, since he was also touched by Jacob (and essentially brought back to life after falling out of the window).
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i agree, i thyink hat we witnessed was Jacob already changing things in the pat again...maybe the oputcome(with his death?) had him "losing", so he went back, and changed things again-and this time, didn't need Kate or charlie,etc.-and chose only JACK, LOCKE, SAYID,ILIANA and HURLEY.Perhaps when we see the losties again, some of them wil have never made it in the season 6 iteration.
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Something about that exchange between Bernard and Juliet seemed weird... The way they looked at each other and how the music changes after... What was up with that???
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That touching each of those characters, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Locke, Sun, Jin, gave a little bit of himself to each of them. So now, each of those bits will be able to reassemble in Locke's body, he will be resurrected. And it fits with Harry Potter, like you said, bc it uses the magical number SEVEN. Jacob touched seven people. Oh wait, never mind. Scratch that. I forgot Sayid. That makes 8. Okay, that makes it the magical number EIGHT, which is one of the Numbers! Yeah... yeah that's it. But I do like the idea of some sort of Spock mindmeld thing going on there in order to come back.
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Did you notice that Jacob was wearing a WHITE shirt and the guy who badly wanted to kill him was wearing a BLACK shirt? This all plays back to the "black and white" motiffs of the first season. Black and white. Yen and yang. Jacob and...Esau?
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I totally agree. I mean I've spent the last 5 years reading great theories that people have come up with. Bad ones too. But a lot of time and effort was put into this show by the fans and when that white flash turned into an inverted logo, I heard the giant flush of everyone's theories going down the toilet.
It kinda sucks if you really think about it. It's like mystery shows that don't introduce the killer until the last 5 minutes. After last night's finale I think there was no way anyone could have figured it out. Lucky guesses? Sure. But everyone working together to try to figure it out has been a waste, because as stated earlier they just reset it (maybe reformatted is a better term). Next season can be anything. It wouldn't even have to have the same cast if they didn't want to. -
You all know this to be true...
I would have thought differently if Variable was better... if Variable was on par with Constant, I would have liked this season a lot more. Also, No Place Like Home (Part 1) blows Follow the Leader OUT OF THE WATER when it came to setting up the finale.
So, all things considered, Season 4 was a far superior season. -
I don't know but i think that jacob was on some of the obi wan "if you strike me down i will become more powerful than you can imagine..."...still i wanted the stakes for out protagonist (jack weather we like it or not) raised a little. The face that none of these people realize that they are the incident two episodes ago or even consider it is crazy to me.
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I don't know but i think that jacob was on some of the obi wan "if you strike me down i will become more powerful than you can imagine..."...still i wanted the stakes for out protagonist (jack weather we like it or not) raised a little. The face that none of these people realize that they are the incident two episodes ago or even consider it is crazy to me.
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as much as i loved that episode, it's been all downhill from there. The O6 off-island shit was boring. the time travel was a cheap way to so us old shit. the only thing this season had going for it was a new, confident locke. Who now turns out to be evil unlocke.
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In a way, "Jacob" was introduced during Season 3. In fact, his "list" was introduced during Season 2. Thus, it isn't like he was introduced during the "last five minutes." In fact, there is one more season of the show to go. Even if you count only the time that we actually SAW Jacob...it still constitutes more than 1/6 of the show's run.
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walt, desmond, the tallies, DI, widmore/ben feud, freighter peeps, sayid/assasin and of course JOHN LOCKE. but none of it matters. a new viewer could START next season and be on par w/ me. the writers needed to finish what they fucking started. Do you really think NOW is the time to introduce NEW characters? If it had been planned from the beginning then ilana should of been introduced ealier as a major player.
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Many of these theories are conflicting, but here are some thoughts from an avid Lost viewer. I think that the first one fits very well with what we've seen so far:
Esau is the smoke monster, which can take on the appearance of dead people and access people's memories. Esau took the form of Locke when Locke's body returned to the island. Only one form can
be assumed at a time, so when Ben summoned the smoke monster to answer for his part in Alex's death it was not successful because Esau was already in Locke's form nearby. Locke (i.e. Esau) is
the one to suggest that they instead go to The Temple to find the monster. When they get there, no-one else goes in so Ben and Locke are alone - Ben falls through the floor and Locke excuses
himself to find a rope. At this point smokey appears and the apparition of Locke disappears - he is out of sight of everyone else at this point. Smokey then disappears and reppears as Alex, who
tells Ben to follow Locke's (really Esau's) every instruction, which will ultimately lead to Jacob's death. Alex disappears and Locke reappears with a rope. The "loophole" is getting a dead
person back to the island that has assumed a position of authority with Jacob/The Others and exploiting the time-travel loop to do so - remember, it is Locke/Esau that gives Richard the compass
and instructions to the real Locke at the beechcraft that he has to die. Esau also states to Jacob at the beginning of the episode that he believes people to be basically rubbish, so this
matches up with the smoke monster's penchant for judging people (e.g. Eko).
In season 1 (I think) John looked into the eye of the island and what he saw "was beautiful", but then later the smoke monster tries to kill him. In the first encounter, the smoke monster reads
him and learns who he is, in the second it (prematurely) tries to kill him so that it/Esau can assume his form.
Hurley's visions of dead people are in no way related to the smoke monster and are genuine visitations from beyond. He is needed back on the island.
Christian is a manifestation of the smoke monster/Esau - he instructed John to turn the wheel so that he would leave the island and die. When Locke returned he would be dead, allowing him to be
impersonated. Christian does not speak for Jacob. If that is the case, Claire is vitally important and is therefore in danger, having been taken in by Christian (really Esau). Or, he does
speak for Jacob and Locke leaving the island was part of Jacob's grand plan. If he does speak for Jacob, that would explain why he seems to want to get Sun back to Jin, but it wouldn't explain
why he would tell her to trust Locke, unless of course he (Jacob) doesn't know that Locke is a fake. Perhaps that's why Locke needed to die off-island; to fool Jacob into believing that he was
the real one returning?
The semi-invisible man in the cabin that Locke saw was Esau, not Jacob. His plea of "help me" was accurate - he needs John to help him kill Jacob.
The ash around "Jacob"'s cabin could either be to a) keep Esau inside, in which case breaking it has allowed him to escape, or b) keeps Esau *outside*, protecting Jacob within, so when it is
broken he is able to come inside and torch the place. That would also mean that smoke monster wouldn't be able to get inside the cabin. It might act as a primitive equivalent of the Dharma
sonic fence in that regard.
Jacob's line "they're coming" simply refers to Ilana, Ricardos et al., as they have discovered that Locke is a fake.
Juliet's detonation is The Incident and things will continue as planned/before. Desmond is the real variable in all of this and he may be able to change events in season 6 - he is "uniquely, and
miraculously, special" after all. Miles is bang on the money when he states that the nuke being detonated was always what happened. The detonation could also transport the 70s Losties back to
2007 in one last time-travel event. Also, we have yet to find out who Adam and Eve are (my money would be on Bernard and Rose at this point), so if there is a huge reset button it doesn't explain that element of the show, which has been repeatedly highlighted as an example of "once we explain this, it'll prove we had a grand plan from the word go". Though the inverted colours in the final "LOST" slogan and the season 6 trailer do suggest something wacky going on. -
I think they are the two cherubim (angels) sent to guard paradise in Genesis 3. The island is Eden, and over the centuries the angels have gotten bored, so every once in a while one of them allows humans to discover paradise again to see if they're worthy yet to inherit it. Which of course, they aren't. That explains their opening conversation.
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So is anyone familiar with Adulous Huxley? Did you know that he hung out with the real Richard Alpert? They did LSD together. Did you know Huxley wrote a story called Jacob's Hands, about a man named Jacob that had the power to heal people with his hands? Did you know he wrote a book called Point Counter Point, where the story is an intricate set of sub-plots revolving around several key characters each with a set of sub characters. Each character represents some aspect of life or is a stereotype of some sort and the various character paths cross in varying circumstances and Huxley analyzes every motive and internal emotion in detail, sometimes even jumping into a character's past to provide context. Did you know Huxley wrote a book called The Island, about a man shipwrecked on an island who encounter a group of people living on the island. It deals with group living, assisted reproduction,trance states for super living, and a long hard journey to a temple for spiritual enlghtenment. Or how about another Huxley work After Many Summers Dies The Swan, where the action revolves around a few main characters brought together by Jo Stoyte. Each character represents a different philosophy of living life.And every individual is called on to display not only unsleeping good will but also unsleeping intelligence. It features one character Dr Obispo, who places great faith in science and medicine as a saviour of humankind but he is trapped in ego-based "human" behaviour that prevents him from reaching enlightenment. And another character, Stoyte,who is in his sixties and fearing death, finds himself in deep contemplation of life. Enlightenment eludes him, however, as he is ruled by fear and craving. Stoyte travels with Dr Obispo to Europe, where they find an immortal human, who now resembles an ape. Stoyte cannot grasp that transcendence or goodness should be one's ultimate goal, rather than prevention of death, and expresses his wish to undergo treatment so that he too will live forever. Does any of Huxley's work I have presented sound familiar?
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...that the next season will begin with Jack & Co...on the plane...getting ready to land in Los Angeles...but with all of the memories that they had from the years that never happened. This would fit in with the "Jacob's touch" scenario described above. Each of them must return to the island to "save the world" by saving Jacob. Regardless, I can't wait until January!
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The game changing revelation just came in the first scene rather than the last.
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There's no way someone could join next season and know the rich history of the characters and their relationships.
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I wasn't talking about Jacob or any character. I was just saying there's no way to figure it out, like mysteries that don't introduce the killer until just before the end. There's no knowing what they're going to do next at all. I didn't mean that they didn't introduce someone essential to figuring it out. There's nothing to figure out at this point. So who the hell knows who's important and who's not? It's all up in the air.
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Jacob will transfer into baby Aaron. That will be the explanation of why Aaron was so important. That's why the statue with the fertility ankh's was broken to try and stop any babies from being born on the island. I think Esau/Apep can only tranfer into sinners (bad people) and jacob can only transfer into good people.
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My Harry Potter reference was specific to how voldemort was able to be resurrected, it was the Horcruxes, and how he split his soul to achieve immortality. Very similar to Jacob's 'touch' and his last words - they're coming... he meant the remaining O6 required to reassemble his soul/spirit.
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but if someone started watching with the first episode next season, I doubt if they'll be lost. It looks like everything we've seen, that rich history, is just going to be backstory for whatever season 6 is and probably not necessary to understanding it.
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Locke is DEAD! Again! Just like last season's finale!
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Is this a flaw by the writers? it would seem that this esau guy is pretenending to be the dead but it makes no sense that Christian's body was never there. Did the writers forget they did that?
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i have always respected your LOST comments and attention to detail. so I KNOW locke being dead bothers you. you will see terry oquinn again, but not john locke. Tell yourself whatever you have to. Unfortunately i cannot.
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the writers forgot they did a lot.
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Locke needs a happy ending. Or, at least an ending more dramatic and fulfilling than having his corpse dumped out onto the sand. I'm gonna spend the next 9 months under the (hopefully not deluded) expectation that we will somehow see the Locke we know and love back.
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Wow, I really like that theory. It definitely concludes the "they are connected" premise. It wasn't so much that they were destined to be on the flight, more that Jacob knew they would all be on the flight and went back in time to put all the pieces in place. Nice.
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Locke broke the circle of ashes when he visited who he thought was 'Jacob' in the cabin.
There was no physical presence in the cabin, only an entity that Locke could communicate with. This entity inhabited Locke, and now uses him as a vessel to leave the cabin where he was imprisoned.
Locke was led there by Ben, so don't assume that Ben is now all of a sudden the whiny pussy he's pretending to be.
Inhabited Locke is immortal and was waiting on the island for Ben to return to do his bidding.
Not sure where the bait-and-switch occured with Inhabited Locke and Future-Dead Locke, but I assume it was in the tunnels where he met Christian and turned the wheel. We still don't have an explanation as to how he got back to the States, so there's more story to tell there.
I think Mr Eko was meant to play a big part in this story, because they set him up as the righteous opposite of Locke before abruptly killing off the character. -
Christian walked on the Island. His corpse was never found.
Eko's brother "walked" the Island. His corpse WAS found.
Locke has "walked" the Island. His corpse, we all know, was found.
Whatever has posed as Locke and Eko's brother, I think it's safe to say it wasn't necessarily posing as Christian. If his body is ever found (or what's left of it-- no doubt a skeleton in sneakers, by now), then we're in a whole different ballgame.
Also-- do we know what broke the line of ash around the Cabin? -
Still Charlie's, by far.
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The most obvious way for Locke to be back and whole is if Jack was right and they did reset the system. The difference this time is the people Jacob touched. Locke survived the fall and wasnt paralyzed, Kate didnt turn to a life of crime and kill her stepfather, Sawyer wasnt a con man, Jun and Jin never have the fallout in their relationship, not sure about how Sayid is changed.
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I agree. The episode would so much better if the first scene was made to be the last. With proper editing, it can be pulled off. I wonder why they didn't do that. I think they've got a choice between the Jacob beach conversation and John's death to make as the final scene, and they went for John's death because it worked last time. But seriously, the minute you saw that pilot guy in the boat with the box, you've got to know is was going to be John inside. They set it up by Richard asking John about his death in the preceding scene.
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...They won't be going to LAX, lest we forget that 815 had mechanical problem and was heading back to Sydney or to Figi or some such thing. The fight was off course and might just crash on the island anyway, but without the whole Tail Section separation drama.
I like the idea of all the Losties on the plane in 2004, but retaining their memories though. Would make for an interesting last season and allow them to "reset" all the deaths (hmmm, sorry Christian, not you) -
I like your attitude. perhaps i am a man of science while you are a man of faith. i couldn't agree w/ you more about lockes resolution. i was just EXTREMELY disappointed that was not locke all season. i thought knowledge and confidence were finally his reward.
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Thanks... There's quite a bit more to it, i just don't have time to write it all out. But I'll add another layer, the tapestry that Jacob was working on is reflective of how he prepared for his death, basically laying the groundwork so that his opposite would not know, hence the reason he visited the losties at different moments in their life (and not all at the same age). many are casting this as a biblical story, but the roots of biblical stories are rooted in Egyptian myth/lore. I think this story more closely resembles the myth of Osiris & Set and the island is Aaru or the Egyptian reed fields, are the heavenly paradise, where Osiris ruled. Consider that Aaru was the place where "those deceased who, after judgment, were allowed to reside there, were often called the eternally living" (think whispers). Just my thoughts..feel free to rip to shreds...
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The white background and logo. The writers gave themselves a Tabula Rasa.
Look I admire their bravado. When they got their end date it freed them up to do whatever they wanted. Maybe they knew what they had in store wouldn't be popular with fans so that's why they negotiated a situation for themselves where they wouldn't get canceled if the ratings dropped. They're telling the story they want to tell, so good for them.
I'm gonna get out of here because I already know what I'm going to get. But if you watch this season and then catch a repeat in syndication you wind up seeing a bunch of characters that have been dead for a while. Some of us liked those characters and their storylines. So when people come in here and complain that the story's been crappy since season 2 or whatever, that's a valid opinion, okay. Some of us were still waiting for Walt to be a main character again. Other people had other things they liked that might not turn out. SciFi fans can't be expected to jump for joy when after speculating scientific explanations for years that it looks like it could turn out to be just more Bible stuff. People grew attached to characters and theories and when it all gets pushed aside, they get upset. They're not all trolls or haters. But that's what they get called in here and I don't think it's fair.
It's very hard to connect what happened this season with previous seasons. I personally think that this is the worst season of LOST and the abuse I've taken in these talkbacks is out of hand. I've been a fan for 5 years, discussing it in many places and what I get for voicing my displeasure with this season in this talkback is a lot of people ganging up on me and personally insulting me and telling me to go watch something else. I've been watching these talkbacks the last few weeks, trying not to post, and have seen more and more people have issues with the direction of the show. But we're all supposed to drink the Kool-Aid and never complain. Or we're not supposed to watch a show if we don't like every minute of it, because that upsets the faithful. Well I loved that Darlton completely trashed everything last night because all those know-it-alls now know nothing too.
But unfortunately the show did go to hell this season in my opinion. The acting was atrocious and I think that's a sign from the actors that what they were being asked to do made no sense. Michael Emerson has been hamming it up as an ubervillain for the longest time and now it turns out that Ben is just some weak little shit that fell for some other playas game, fell so hard that he killed Jacob? Ben's just another character that completely crapped out. Richard Alpert? Turns out the guy doesn't know shit. He's not a time traveller or immortal. Whatever he is is because of Jacob, some dude who lives in a foot. This season is so the opposite of character driven, which is what we kept hearing for years. They're just trying to get to what they think is going to be a superawesome ending. Characters be damned. 1977 Sawyer was an abomination. I'll never get over what they did to him. But as long as it serves their endgame then they had to do it. IMO, 1977 ruined LOST.
It'll be interesting to see where it goes. And I am going to still watch it but I don't think the show now is anything like the show not only in the first season but even last season. So you can save all your 'go watch something you can handle's for someone else. Those of us who dislike parts or all of LOST have a right to post just as much as anyone else. But I don't feel like dealing with the abuse I know I'll get so. I'm takin' off. Have fun. -
My opinion is that the survivors didn't cause the incident which would make me happy because I hate the idea that they could cause themselves to crash when the only way they're there is because they already crashed. Like John Connor existing in the future before his father was sent back in time to father him.I would call the destruction before the bomb went off "the incident" as it did a hell of a lot of damage, but some still think Jack and Juliet caused the incident. What's the consensus on that one?
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I was watching it and Darlton actually said that the reason why 316 got separated was because they didn't recreate the 815 flight perfectly enough.
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Lest all of you making that comparison forget, J.J., Damon and company made that exact same analogy publicly at the beginning of season one. They explicitly said LOST is partially inspired by THE STAND. People first assumed the division of good and evil would be cave Losties vs. beach Losties, and then Losties vs. Others, etc. Hence, there's nothing revelatory about the show's now going in this religiously-tinged direction.
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I've been trolling these message boards for years now, basically adding nothing but greatly appreciating the wealth of insight, as well as the inane psychobabble, that Lost TBers often bring to the table.
Because I once wrote about 3 pages worth of a brilliant dissertation on the time traveling aspects of 12 Monkeys on IMDB only to have it lost in the ethers of internet memory several months later when bandwith was needed. It bothered me that I should put so much time into writing something as passionate as that was, only to be mocked by its temporal nature when it disappeared from the annuls of the internet shortly after. So, having already wasted much of your time in this little preamble, and at the expense of repeating this past heartbreak once more, I will provide a very SHORT explanation of where I believe things are headed.
First of all, can we all agree, even if the show ends in a dramatic cluster-f of epic proportions, that we have all been lucky to bare witness to a major network serial that is easily more ambitious than 99% of the entertainment being offered in what have (traditionally) been more literate mediums (film, books, etc.). At this point, even if Season 6 is a failure, Bad Robot has earned our respect.
Anyway, I have always thought that the key to Lost is the way its told. It's not always the revelations that are the reason we keep watching this show, but the post-modern way in which these revelations are presented. Ergo, I am going to assume that Season 6 will be a stand alone battle worthy of the all build-up, but will be absolutely mind melting when the shows run is taken as a whole.
I still think Ben and Richard and crew know more than they let on. Like that early draft of Groundhog Day, I believe that Season 1 began after many of our characters have already lived through the events of Season 1-6 several times. There is definitely a battle between disparate philosophies brewing on the island. An endless battle. In order to understand time (and thus time travel), one must abandon the notion of time being linear, or on a particular path. Instead time is more like a plane, where every moment is happening simultaneously, and has always happened. Like the record playing during this seasons premiere, the events that take place as time seems to move on, are always happening, and always have happened.
12 Monkeys does a fantastic job of representing this, and in doing so even involves itself in paradoxical loops (which are another story altogether). Other films that handle this kind of time travel well are Primer and the recent Timcrimes.
If you're looking for a really quick and elementary understanding of time, then I would suggest the "Understanding Time", which can be found on Amazon. Its almost like a pocket sized book of basic notes and diagrams, filled with some mildly amusing illustrations. You can breeze through it in a day, easily.
Anyway, I'm really not interested in discussing time travel right now because I think most of the time travel work on lost has already been done. Say you watched Bill Murray steal the cash from the back of the bank truck, warn Ryerson about the puddle and save the choking man in the restaurant without us knowing that he had been repeating this events, this exact day, for hundreds perhaps thousands of years. That's what I think is happening on Lost.
Maybe the bomb caused the incident and Jack and co are done for. At least in this branch of time. However, I doubt they're done for in their roles in this story that transcends time. Remember of course, that by setting off Jugghead, at least in a tenseless sense of time, Jack is preventing himself from ever gong to the island. Thus he is preventing himself from following all the necessary steps in the future that will lead him to go back in time and set off Jugghead in the first place. I guess the question would be: What happens if you go back in time an early version of yourself? Or you pregnant mother? How does course correction work? Does time just fold in on itself?
I think its far more likely that we will see Season 6 start exactly like Season 1, except our 8 heroes will have a preknowledge of events that they did not have before. This will ultimately imbue them with some degree of the omnipotence that Ben and the Others seemed to possess when we first meet them.
Once again, the show will be playing with perceptions.
But the important thing here, as we enter the last season, is not to distract ourselves with red herrings going into the climax. Season 6 ended like all good stories should at this point, with the "all is lost" moment where every one of the characters we've come to love and identify with is now at the absolute worst, most desperate point in the story. But if Jacob is revered so much, then how is that he would orchestrate all of his Oceanic children to make decisions and take actions that would ultimately lead to his death.
The island is Atlantis. It is Eden. It is Thule. It is an amalgamation of all of these mythical lands. And as such, we can imagine that it is integral to the origin story of all things. Perhaps Adam and Eve really are.... Adam and Eve. Perhaps, Egyptian culture did spring from the Lost island. Perhaps the island is equally the basis for all religions (as Dharma Initiative implies Eastern religions, the holy trinity and other Judeo christian aspects are often referenced, likewise Egyptian, pagan, and even aspects of existential and Discordian philosophy are dropped).
AND HERE'S THE POINT:
This show is about faith and reason. And for better or worse, they will end the show by trying to apply reason to faith. What we are watching in seasons 1-5 is either the source of all Campbell's hero myths, all creation myths, the Old and New Testament, modern lit, popular culture etc. have come from.
Because the island exists out of time in a sense, the battle for its salvation will happen, is happening, and has happened already SIMULTANEOUSLY. I'm an atheist, but if I remember correctly, the End of Days is described IN DETAIL, in Revelations. The battle between God and Satan has already happened but is also going to happen. In other words, it is cyclical; it repeats ad nauseam, like looking at your reflection between two mirrors. Like a fractal. The building block of creation.
And that's what the island is. It's an Ouroboros of time.
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Wow. I had not thought about that! It did seem like he was "correcting" the course of each of these individuals!!! Incredible!
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I like it. This might be a long shot (and most likely is a huge one) but what if 1977 and 2007 are running parallel and “Jacob’s Touch” actually returns the chosen ones to the period in which he dies? So the bomb caused the incident but it happen to coincide with Jacob's death 30 years in the future. I know, a bit far fetched.
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It is all a game of backgammon!
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Backgammon playing pieces are known variously as checkers, stones, men, counters, pawns, or chips. The ancient Egyptian game "senet" resembled backgammon.
The objective is to remove (bear off) all of one's own checkers from the board before one's opponent can do the same. The checkers are scattered at first and may be blocked or hit by the opponent. As the playing time for each individual game is short, it is often played in matches, where victory is awarded to the first player to reach a certain number of points.
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A player then rolls the dice. Watch, the die will be numbered 4,8,15,16,23,42.
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the rules are simliar to the way people have been killed off the island
Also there is something called the Jacoby rule. It allows gammons and backgammons to count for their respective double and triple values only if the cube has already been offered and accepted. This encourages a player with a large lead to double, possibly ending the game, rather than to play it to conclusion hoping for a gammon or backgammon. Could jacob have been using this tactic with Ben when he told him he had a choice?
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Also, check out the major strategies used in backgammon.
The Priming game tactic is where you create a all around your opponent. The ash ring anyone?
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The backgame tactic obstructs the opponent's checkers and creates opportunities to hit them as they move home. The backgame is generally used only to salvage a game wherein a player is already significantly behind... Several scenarios could apply here. Maybe the whole time travel thing.
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The Duplication tactic refers to the placement of checkers such that one's opponent needs the same dice rolls to achieve different goals. (ALtering time, trying to duplicate the plane crash scenario.)
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"Numerous cheating methods have been used in backgammon. These include moving the checker the wrong number of spaces; using magnetic, shaved, or weight-loaded dice; using special throws to produce the dice number desired; assistance from software or a third party." (Using Locke as the loophole!)
Maybe the title itself refers to who "LOST" the game. And also remember that they found two skeletons in the cave with a white and black rock. I really think this "formula" has been the glue of the series.
/s/ backgammon information source: Wikipedia -
I agree! This show has been the most "risky" show ever endeavored by network television. Even if the story does not end the way that I would wish, the ride has been fantastic.
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but anyone else think it's kind of funny that Juliet has been wearing this bright red shirt for the past few eps?
But really, who knows what 'dead' is on LOST. Especially if they hit that 'reset' button. :)
dang, it's gonna be a long wait for January... -
...and, in the credits, they list a character named "Captain Bird." Who was this?
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Sorry about the space problem. I really think I can expand on this idea. Maybe the reason children cant be born on this island applies to the rules of adding and subtracting pieces.
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So, when Alpert would tell Ben that Jacob needed to see him, did he assume Ben then went to the foot? Would he have been shocked to know Ben was wandering off to the cabin? Didn't Alpert escort Ben/Locke to the cabin once (I cannot remember)? Did Jacob's crib once have upper floors in the rest of the statue? Did his dark rival live in the other leg before it was blown away? Does it stink of cooked fish in there?
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fuck you dudes.seriously.gamechanger? more like sex-changer you neutured bastards.
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during the recap i noticed that they think they are more clever than they actually are. amazing how ego can ruin an artist.
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When Jacob touched each of the survivors during the flashbacks he was putting his pieces into play.
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of most of the characters taking there faces off-revealnig them to be aliens, and then get on a ship-and take off! actually, i'm kidding myself-there has ALWAYS been the religous themes-espeically in season 2 (remember hurley's dreams?)...so i guess it's not a shocker..and KUDOS for making us think tis bout time-travel,etc...when really..it's mroe about 2 powerful dudes duking it out.thanks!
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There was a hole in the roof...so I doubt it smelled like fish. lol
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WE FINALLY GET SOME ROSE & BENARD ACTION! WOOOOO HOOOOO BEST PART OF THE EPISODE HANDS DOWN!
Other then that the episode was kinda a let down, if it had ended with them dumping out lockes body it woulda been better, but the fade to white was extremely lame, and I woulda rather had Kate die then Juliet. -
you better publicly apologize and confess that you albles the end as "fork in an outlet" becuase you needed good ratings.Becuase this was the equivalent of sticking a fork in a shitty-ass, old salad-tasting it, then going "fuck, this shit is gross" and tossing it to the side, for a meaty, proper ending (aka "TASTY BURGER" )like M.A.S.H. you hacks!
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everyone is worshiping a empty bottle of mexican coke!
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Remember when Juliet marked the tents? Reminds me of the Passover story. The plagues. Reminds me of all the newborns dieing. Aaron not being raised by another sounds an awful lot like the story of Moses, who was raised by Egyptain royalty even though he was Jewish. Moses' brother Aaron spoke for him. He also found himself with a purpose. Moses btw, chose coal over gold, and by doing so, saved his life but also cause him to lose his ability to speak. Compare that to Locke who chose the wrong object during Alperts questioning as a child and ended up handicapped. The numbers on Lost have often made me think about Kabbalah and the number of God they deal with in Pi. Apparently knowing this number makes you go crazy (kind of like Hurley). And smokey seems to fit a thousand different biblicsl/allegorical archetypes. In fact smokey reminds me of the pillar of smoke and fire that they followed out of Egypt. And Ben reminds me of Job. Atlantis was believed to be at many different places. One was Antartica, where polar bears would be comfortable. Anyone that turns the donkey wheel gets throw out in the Middle East (which is where Adam and Eve ended up). I believe that Eden was to be protected by two angels with swords after we were cast out (not sure about this one). Vincent, the dog, may represent the domestication of dogs and their subsequent title as mans best friend. Note the international nature of the cast. Potential to recreate the worlds diversity of the Island became some new Pangea. The Others building the runway now reminds me of the Jews building the pyramids. The foot used to remind me of the Colossus of Rhodes (although I think that one is out).
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sorta tingles, no? whatever...i already forget...very UN-memorable.
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A coke and a smile! why? becuase at this point, DARLTON is just pulling shti from there ass-and serving it piping hot for our consumption.
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hero.Mark my words.Next season, we realize that the bomb/incident caused everyone to become dogs-and vicnet to become a smart, talking dog.They will come to Jacob's rescue, but in the show finale ( dubbed a "milkbone in the blender" )..the Easu guy throws a doggie treat over the waterfall-causing vincent and smokie to go tumbling over...and them poom! fade to dog doo-doo brown.Darlton, you fellas-you can have that one for FREE!
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Mid-1800’s: A man in white creates thread on a spinning wheel, then tends to it on a loom. He’s in a dark, ancient room, light by flames and marked with Egyptian symbols. He goes to the shore, catches a fish, and cooks it upon a stone. As he eats the fish, a man in black comes from behind. They both gaze at the Black Rock, a few miles off shore.
The man in black accuses the other of bringing them to the Island, saying the man in white is trying to prove him wrong. “You ARE wrong,” says the man in white. The man in black notes that the cycle is always the same: they come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. The man in white notes that anything up until his ideal outcome is merely “progress.” After a pause, the man in black says, “Have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?” He speaks of trying to find a loophole to accomplish his goal, and leaves by speaking the man in white’s name: Jacob. We never learn the man in black’s name. Instead, we see the camera rise up on a full intact statue, standing right behind them both.
We finally met the puppet masters! Remember in “The Shape of Things to Come,” there were those few shots of Ben in the desert as the camera started close, then jump cut a few times ever futher back, revealing a bigger picture? Tonight’s episode was the narrative version of the last shot in this sequence, where at last, on a quiet beach in the 19th century, we met the two players responsible for the forces of light and dark on the Island.
Many might be tempted to assign the Man in Black’s name as Esau, given the Biblical references rife with the name Jacob itself. But me? I like “Man in Black,” as it harkens to a work that I think runs rampant throughout the show: Stephen King’s “The Dark Tower.” In that 7-volume series, “The Man in Black” goes by many names across variety planes of reality, but always serves the side of evil. So it’s only fitting to me that we take Jacob’s adversary as a nameless entity for now. In any case, the backgammon game between Locke and Walt came full circle tonight, with the sides fully set and the true leader of each side revealed.
Free will matters in the “Lost” universe! This to me was the most important takeaway of Jacob’s visits to various people currently on the Island. He didn’t give them explicit instructions, he gave them OPTIONS. He gave them CHOICE. And by doing so, he gave them the capacity to both do good and evil. All this gets back to what I’ve long thought was the most important exchange in “Lost” history, from the early part of Season 3. In the Hydra Station, Ben and Jack discuss Ben’s impending surgery:
JACK: All of this... you brought me here to operate on you. You... you want me to save your life?
BEN: No, I want you to WANT to save my life.
“Lost” inhabits a universe in which choice matters, in which free will matters, in which there are seemingly omnipotent beings who still need us to do us to things for them. The Man in Black cannot kill Jacob. But he can set things in motion that pray upon the frailty of man: their pettiness, greed, violence, insecurity, in order to position people where he wants them. But he can only lead them to a certain point. At that point, individual will still takes over.
This, to me, does not negate “whatever happened, happened.” The people in 1977 were not acting out some passion play for the gods in an endless loop. As frustrating as I found the seemingly incoherent actions of the characters (who made choices based on dramatic need versus consistent reasoning), they at least all eventually chose in some capacity to end up at the Swan at the time of the Incident. (I’d love to know how Richard claims he “saw” them all die there, but hey, that’s another tale altogether.)
The most powerful force in “Lost” is not electromagnetism, but Austenism! Seriously, when the show explains every major character decision in 1977 around Freckles, I have to make a crack about this. I kept waiting for Radzinsky to say he named the Swan after Kate’s beauty after a while. I don’t even blame Kate for this; I blame the writers who are clearly in love with the character more than they should be at this point.
Ilana and Company are Others! Or, sons/daughters of Others, as several of you theorized. Nice call, there. The fact that Richard knew the answer to the riddle indicates a connection to me that aligns the two forces together. And it looks like Jacob put them all on Ajira 316 to help him along.
My “Cabin Christian” theory is looking stronger than ever! I have stated in the past that “Cabin Fever” started a long con by which the artist we know now as The Man in Black” sought to take over the Island. Rewatch everything from Season 4 and 5 and I think you see that’s pretty darn accurate. It’s a ridonkulously overelaborate plan, but that’s what happens when you’ve got ageless creatures that might be human, might be gods, might be good/evil themselves forever measuring the worth of man using the Island as a testing ground in the name of “progress” towards some evolutionary end Jacob foresees and the Man in Black abhors. But rewatch the Christian Shephard in the brown shirt very, very closely your second time around. His interest in John Locke is purely to get the Man in Black on the Island. That’s his mission. And he succeeded quite brilliantly
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I agree it would have been much cooler to see this mysterious dude traveling to the 815ers pasts, and then find out in the end that it was none other than Jacob. But I also think that would have been guessed easily by the fans and might not have been as mind blowing as conceived. I liked the fade to white ending. It was not only a big middle finger to the haters of the Sopranos ending, but also an indication to the fans that its not how the series finale is goign to end and to chill out. But I have to say I was floored by the Locke in the box reveal. I did not see it coming.
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I'm in the UK,I just watched Lost in HD on my 50 inch plasma.
I'm afraid the idea of people watching poor quality downloads on tiny monitor screens isn't reality... -
Jacob, meaning "heel-catcher", "supplanter", "leg-puller", "he who follows upon the heels of one"? If the name means something than bring on season 6.He`ll be back!!
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I think the Apep/Set commenters above are definitely onto something. The statue is pretty clearly Taweret (hippo) and not Sobek (the crocodile consort of Taweret that is often incorporated into her physical representation). The wiki has this intriguing note: When paired with another deity, she [Taweret] became the demon-wife of Apep, the original god of evil. Since Apep was viewed as *residing below the horizon*, and only present at night, evil during the day then was envisaged as being a result of Taweret's maleficence.
Who *lies* in the shadow of the statue, indeed! -
I like your backgammon theory. If I'm not mistaken, I think I remember Locke discussing backgammon with Walt in one of the earlier episodes, just as the theme and tone for the show was first developing. (That is, for the first time). Plus its a beautiful and poetic way of looking at this epic struggle between black and white, the ying and the yang.
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i love some of the theories on here, but i learned to read them, then disavow any knowledge-as next season we will ALL be 100% wrong. Becuase next seson we follow the gang, as they work in a coca-cola bottling factory in...yep, you guess correct..MEXICO!
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May 14, 2009 2:08:10 PM CDT
MrEkoLetMeLive... c'mon, man... do some research!
by bob loblaw law blog
There is a 10-year age difference between Evangeline Lily (Kate) and Josh Holloway (Sawyer) in real life... why would you think they're the same age on the show?Just look at this list of some of the LOST actors and their real-life ages... they're not all around the same age.
Matthew Fox (Jack) - 42
Josh Holloway (Sawyer) - 39
Evangeline Lilly (Kate) - 29
Naveen Andrews (Sayid) - 40
Henry Ian Cusick (Desmond)- 42
Jeremy Davies (Daniel) - 39
Emilie de Ravin (Claire) - 27
Michael Emerson (Ben) - 54
Jorge Garcia (Hurley) - 36
Daniel Dae Kim (Jin) - 40
Yunjin Kim (Sun) -35
Ken Leung (Miles) - 39
Rebecca Mader (Charlotte) - 29
Elizabeth Mitchell (Juliet) - 39
Dominic Monaghan (Charlie) - 32
Terry O'Quinn (Locke) - 56
Harold Perrineau (Michael) - 45
Michelle Rodriguez (Ana Lucia) - 30
Malcolm David Kelley (Walt) - 17
Nestor Carbonell (Richard Alpert) - 41The Internet is a terrible thing to waste. It can really help you not sound stupid.
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Please break up your LARGE posts with paragraph breaks! Just place a (without spaces in between) anywhere you want a break. It will help us read your posts a lot easier.
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TestTest
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MrEkoLetMeLive: "If Kate is 10 in the 90's that would make her freaking 19 now..."WTF? Dude... New Kids on the Block were popular from about 1989-1992. If Kate were 10 in the early '90s, she wouldn't be 19 now... she'd be close to 30... which she is.
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Holy crap, I thought for sure that dude was early 30s. 33 at the oldest.
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New kids on the block.in season 6-starring donnie whalberg, and the other 5 dudes, as....THE LOSTIES!
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Lawdy that must be embarrassing, to try to make a point with messed up info, sign your pseudo-name to it and his send.If James was ten in 1977, then if he went back from our time (or 2007, show time) he'd be thirty. Well, no, 1977 was 30 years ago and if he was ten years old thirty years ago, he'd be forty. Which is pretty close to Josh Holloway's real age. Do the math.Here, I'll do it for you: 2007 - 1977 = 30 + 10 = 40. There, the math is done.
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My apologies... I should have read a bit further down where you said you now understood your error. Guess I'm the asshole now.Sorry about that. I'm glad we're on the same page. Back to the talkback...
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Who the hell was in it?
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...This summer, in which we all end up saying the same thing, repeating the same criticisms of MrEkoLetMeLive, as we all try to catch up on the TB and post a response before the idea leaves our head... ... only to find out someone has already done it for us. This is our fate.
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Lindeloff recently said ( 'in regards to the "myserious outrigger" that shot at our losties in the beginning of the seson )-" we feel that the story of the sillouetted outrigger is done.We wanted to adress it, but in our eyes-this story is "told" already.I think fans will be okay with this."
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the 'fork in the socket" is that this WAS the alst episode of LOST ever.There is no season 6, as they erased it all ni the incident.
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Good for you, dear. I like seeing people stand up to ruthless mobs of any kind. It is your absolute prerogative to dislike any or all aspects of the show and to comment relentlessly on them, regardless of how much others celebrate the show and its 'elaborate' structure. I happen to think that this show last night put Twin Peaks to shame in the 'not making sense' department. At least Twin Peaks did it with style.
A bomb does not reverse time, it explodes. Period. I never saw any explanation as to why Jack got it in his head that a bomb would do anything but destroy them all permanently. And Kate must not have very much instinct of self preservation in her if she would go along with Jack's plan that would put her back on the path of prison bound, not to mention that she would never have met either of the men she seems to be conflicted over. Juliet going along with it so she would never have met Sawyer? Also stupid. I don't know how Cuse and Lindelof perceive love in real life, but in real life for me and everyone else I know, when you lose someone you love, you cherish the time you did have with them, not wish you'd never have met them. That's just part of being human. I refuse to believe this is what they've planned all along. They say it's all going according to plan right now, but I repeat, give it ten years when they admit the popularity got out of control. It's happened to so many shows. They will openly admit 'We started out knowing where we were going, but things got out of control. Our audience was guessing what we were going to do ahead of time, so to stay a step ahead of them, we found ourselves having to improvise a good deal of the time.' -
I don't speak Latin. Of course, that was a much "cooler" answer than "What did one snowman say to the other snowman?"
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hobocode-it's a good question.Makes you feel like when season 6 starts-things MIGHT not be any different.(as far as jack's plan to"reboot' things go)
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Ra vs Asep (good vs evil) playing an epic game of backgammon. The island is the board and the people are the pawns. This can be used as the formula to explain everything.
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The hell? Story was told? Sigh....
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Staring contest: http://tinyurl.com/pngsso
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Is the constant insistance by folk on here that this is a religious story.
Now, lemme say...yes, of course there are analogies to different religious stories, Christian or otherwise, but that's just it. They're analogies. And the thing is, religious stories and concepts were analogies in themselves!
The point I'm trying to make...how can anyone get from that finale that it's 'all about religion'? There was no mention of God (or gods, for that matter). There's egyptian iconography, but we have no idea how 'literal' that is. Where's this religious slant coming from? Just because one of the main dudes has the name of a person from the Bible?
Someone earlier mentioned how many stories of Aldus Huxley paralleled what has happened on The Island. Does that mean the show is a giant wet kiss Brave New World and all about Huxley? -
damn i'm dense sometimes.
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"ille Qui Nos Omnes Servabit"
“He who will protect us all.”
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He knew they would eventually end up on the island because they appeared in 1977, and other various points as they were popping around the time stream. He knew they would end up there, so he sought them off island to help things along, ensure they arrived as they were meant to and, maybe, to recruit them to his side when the final battle comes.
These two, Jacob and the man in black, have been maniuplating people on the island from the beginning of time, in an effort to kill eachother... At least black dude wants jacob dead, which leads me to believe he's the one who's been making all the visions happen... he's been leading people how he wants them to go... Some of them to their deaths, others to do his bidding. -
hobo-im kidding man.That's me ribbing Lindeloff for the lame Libby-sendoff.I'm sure they'll explain the outrigger-but honestly..it WOUDLN'T surprise me if they conveniently "forgot" about it.I'm thinking it was tje new people(Bram,etc.)-but who the hell knows-it could be NEW cast member introduced in season 6
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King hasn't always been a failure at ending a story. See Dead Zone, IT (there was more going on than just a giant spider, I promise), Pet Sematary and Gerald's Game. The revelations at the end of Gerald's Game, in particular, are frightening. Seriously underrated book (and there was more going on in the book than just a woman tied to a bed).
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I'm betting that dharma created it and accidentally sent it back in time somehow... Then, the ancient island civilization encountered it and believed it to be a god, and built a temple around it. What happens is what has always happened, so the monster appears ancient, but that's just because we haven't seen it be created and sent back yet.
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Red shirts have been dying on lost all the time. They are usually just background characters though. Didn't think they'd ever do it to a main cast member though.
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They shouldve never showed the first scene with Jacob and 'other guy'... You see Jacob throughout the episode encountering the O6 but never know who he is (I wouldve never thought it was Jacob)... After the last commercial break, I STILL say you should see Ben killing Jacob BEFORE they reveal Locke is dead... How crazy would the end of the episode be if...They reveal who Jacob is followed by, Jacob dying, and then the reveal that Locke is in fact dead (not having ANY idea who the Locke clone is!!!... My head would've probably exploded if they did it like that... Good episode but could've been better with different editing...
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That's why I was a bit confused by his post. I haven't seen anyone insulting him at all, and his comments here, for the most part, suggest that he enjoyed the episode. confused.
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Wasn't the other guy with Jacob in "Deadwood?"
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in terms of how they perceive the color red or something...maybe m night created the smoke monster.
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I hope you're right. I really want Smokey to be man made. But I seriously doubt it will happen.
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"I never saw any explanation as to why this would work or as to how this idea got into so-and-so's head..." Because, by your own admittance, you have NOT BEEN WATCHING THE SHOW. Therefore, your criticisms are moot, you are henceforth ignored, but thanks for playing.
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I'm fairly certain.
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Yes. Silas Adams
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My brain is still horribly sore from all the fucking that Lost gave it last night.
and yes... that IS Sobek. Read up on it. Sobek's description is very similar to Jacob. The name even has a very similar sound to Jacob.
Now... Jacob and Esau... did they mean that people have been coming to the island for centuries and they always corrupt and destroy and shit OR are they saying that this whole sordid tale (The black rock, the others, the DI, the Losties, The frieghter, the big boom) has been happening over and over again.
The reason I ask is because of how they say that "there's only one end" and "anything before the end is just progress" or some shit like that.It's like they're playing the same scenario over and over, but trying to change the overall outcome. Anyone agree? -
The whole religious thing just seems too obvious to me... Ooooh, the good angel is dressed in white and the bad angel is dressed in black... How corny is that??? I'm hoping for something a little more complex than just Angels and Demons here...
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If he was sent back in time, that would still fit with what the producers' said. I still maintain Smokey is not man made.
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telling ben to do whatever locke tells him to do? right.... If you go back and look at 5x09 Namaste every time locke goes away someone new appears...
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Literally.
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Sick Fixx: "I don't know how Cuse and Lindelof perceive love in real life, but in real life for me and everyone else I know, when you lose someone you love, you cherish the time you did have with them, not wish you'd never have met them."Really? I have several ex-girlfriends who, looking back, make me wish I'd never met them. As much as I loved them then, it would have made my life SO much easier.Not everyone's love experiences are sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes you wish you could just go on and never have to remember what once was. I'm with Juliet on this one.
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..That would make sense with how they keep talking about the loop and breaking the loop.
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Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind, anyone?
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We needed to see Locke's corpse BEFORE we cut to Locke and Ben with Jacob in order to set up the tension. Once the revelation that Locke is NOT Locke but... something else entirely, it changes the entire dynamics of everything that has happened and of what we expect to happen. Suddenly, the idea of Ben killing Jacob has larger ramifications, and therefore is laden with more tension, because he is being manipulated into killing God by a being we know nothing about, by a trickster that has been merely pretending to be the John Locke we all know and love. I admit, revealing his corpse at the end would be a shocker, but it would rob the Ben/Jacob scene of its tension, bc without knowing Locke is actually the bad guy, we wouldn't really care as much about Jacob being killed- we might still suspect its for the good of the Island somehow.
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It was a kickass way to start the show.
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It fits into Jacob's talk about the tapestry and how long it takes when you "weave each INDIVIDUAL thread".
"but, I guess that's the point..."
So Jacob had a major hand in shaping all these lives to try and alter the innevitable(?) outcome? -
May 14, 2009 2:52:22 PM CDT
I'm still trying to figure out the significance of the fish!
by il_deuce
and I'm still trying to come to terms with the fact that Juliet's magnificent cans are gone forever.
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...for Ben as much as I did last night. As soon as I saw ben in that box i felt soooo bad for Ben and how he was being manipulated and how vulnerable and sad he was that Jacob never showed an interest in him, or at least just never wanted to meet him. Obviously there's a reason for this, but it still made me a sad panda.
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What happened happened is what we are told all through this season. Whatever you do you can't change the future. So Jack chucks a bomb into the Swan hole and it turns out to be a dud. Then Jacob dies and everything turns on its head. It's like a variable that happens 30 years in the future that allows the bomb to be detonated so things can be changed again. So next season its back to Season 1 for Jack and co. Jacob is still alive at that point, and its his last chance to change how things happen, otherwise Esau is going to manipulate Ben into killing him in three years time.
That makes me think seeing him die is pointless because without the Plane crashing on the island, Locke never steps foot on the island so won't meet Ben, this means that Esau can't manipulate Ben into killing Jacob. -
..I want to cry. Well, at least we have Gia.
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"A bomb does not reverse time, it explodes. Period. I never saw any explanation as to why Jack got it in his head that a bomb would do anything but destroy them all permanently."
The idea was that the bomb would blow up the swan station itself, meaning it would not be there to pull down 815 in the first place, which means the Losties would never crash. The idea Faraday put into Jack's head was that yes, the bomb WOULD blow up, and probabaly take a chunk of The Island with it...but the result would be the time-line would be altered, not that the bomb would interact with the Electromagnetism and blow them to somewhere else. That's why, when bad things were happening (Faraday killed, Sayid shot, etc) Jack explained it away by saying if they altered the timeline by not crashing 815, they wouldn't be there in the first place to go back in time, and all that bad stuff wouldn't have happened at all.
Now, don't get me started on the mind-blowing paradox this would have caused. But that explains what Jack was thinking; he blow up the Swan, he never crash. So anything he did, wouldn't have happened.
Personally, I'm in the camp that believes the bomb WAS The Incident and Farady had set them on this path to make sure that Whatever Happened, Happened. But that's another arguement in and of itself.
"Juliet going along with it so she would never have met Sawyer? Also stupid. I don't know how Cuse and Lindelof perceive love in real life, but in real life for me and everyone else I know, when you lose someone you love, you cherish the time you did have with them, not wish you'd never have met them."
I think that has a lot to do with the Losties' conversation w/Rose and Bernard. Their main point was, it's always something. This whole story, this show we've been watching, the Losties have been jumping from one disasterous emergency to the next. And Juliet realized, if Jack's plan (again, to re-set shit so they never crash), none of that craziness and violence and death would have to happen. And on top of that, she loved Sawyer. Loved him so much that she'd be willing to not only sacrifice being with him, but actually sacrifice their entire relationship itself...if it meant he never came to this Island and got to live a normal life.
I think the guys have a VERY strong grip on the concept of 'love' (I site Dez & Penny, Rose & Bernard, even Sawyer and Jules). It seems to be a very strong theme for the show itself (what theme DOESN'T this show have?!). Sometimes love causes people to make choices they don't want, to make sacrifice. And sometimes people just don't see how devoted that love is, to have to make those hard choices.
For some reason, it makes me think of those cheesy movies where the little kid has to release his pet into the wild because it can't survive in captivity, or something, and the pet keeps coming back. "Go on!" the kid says. "Get outta' here! I don't even like you anymore!" Tears streaming down his eyes...because he wants him to stay, but knows for the pet's own good it has to go.
Just remember...Jacob Loves You -
...esau was also called Edom which means red. And maybe him turning down the fish has something to do with how esau was starving to death and vulnerable when he sold his birthright to jacob.
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Oh and if the hatch never gets built does that mean Desmond is stranded on the island for years, instead of sitting in the hatch.
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Nothing in the finally freaked me out more than the commercial near the end for Pepsi Natural, or whatever they called it. After reading 100 posts about Mexican Coke and how it's still made with real sugar in the talkback yesterday I was floored to see an ad for Pepsi with Natural Sugar (for a limited time) run during the episode. Did anyone else notice this or was it just in my viewing area?
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In Exodus, the final plague sent by God is death. If I remember correctly, the Hebrews painted lambs blood on their doors so that death would pass them by and so went on to kill the first born sons of Egypt. In some versions of the story, it's even portrayed as a kind of mist that sweeps through the land.
By the way, someone above suggested that Jacob and Esau were actually the angels sent to Eden to guard it and that every so often they let humans back into Eden to see if humanity is ready and worthy to re-enter paradise.
I actually kind of like that theory, with the Others basically being the instruments of the angels will, pawns to use to test the people who come to the island.
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That is an absolutely FANTASTIC theory, on the re-playing of this scenario over and over trying to get it 'right'. Explains a lot of that opening conversation. And it actually fits in REEELLY well with theoldgunslinger's backgammon theory, that those two dudes are essentially just playing a living, breathing game of backgammon. Maybe it's just best 3 out of 5...
Also...red herring. Didn't catch that, thank you sir. PRICELESS! -
Of course I don't think that the show as absolutely about religion. The fact is that any decent writer knows there are certain archetypes that run throughout all storytelling. Saying that a character is Christ, at least when in regards to analyzing anything on any literary grounds, does not mean that they believe the character stands for "the" Jesus Christ inasmuch as they are describing the archetype of "martyr", which exists in every single religion, and for that matter, in some varying degree in us all Buddha gave up Nirvana to return to earth and teach us lowly humans how to find this place for ourselves Or, if you prefer non-religious figures, I have a family member with BPD who believes that she is martyring herself whenever she gets into a disagreement (She's not; she's actually a narcissist) You could say that this Miss USA became a martyr...though I greatly disagree with her opinion on civil rights issues and personally feel she's a bigot, she was attacked for having an opinion and thus is a perfect and topical example Anyway, I don't believe that the show is only about religion. Nor do I believe its all about backgammon or time travel. Lost is open to any multitude of interpretations. Thats what makes the difference between good writing and bad writing. Instead of ignoring or telegraphing its influences, Lost embraces its predecessors by embracing these archetypes and using them to their own artistic advantageAlso note: I am a die hard atheist. I am not religious. Its just the framework that I happen to be seeing the show in now. Its the famework that, for some reason, the show has chosen for me to see things from. And because I trust the writers to take me on the most interesting ride possible, this is why I have chosen to ponder this angle above all others at this time. BTW, Has anyone here even tried to address possibility that there could be explanations for many of the Lost mysteries though Jungain concepts like the collective unconscious? After all, why do you have to take a pill to get the Lost by sub anyway.....
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I needed some time to soak it in today but I've determined last night destroy's the season 3 finale. Season 3's was kind of shitty episode but the end was the big pay off. Last night's was pretty much on it's A-game from the get-go and the ending was so fucking dramatic. Juliette and Jacob's deaths were fucking brutal. And I absolutley loved the fade to white. Greatest show on television.
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Nothing in the finale freaked me out more...
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in his own a sitcom when the series end. And he should have the other casts of Lost on as guest stars. And they would implicitly make fun of their former show. A recurring theme would be a "does charlie die in this episode" joke throughout the series.
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He's obviously trolling, don't waste your time.
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re: pulling for Ben. I KNOW! I'm one of the die-hardest Locke followers, and it was like I was in Bizzaro World rooting for Ben and cursing at John.
I kept expecting Eeevil Locke to spontaneously sprout a goatee when they walked into the Foot. Anyone? -
Last night's episode was awesome. I loved the way the two of them in black and white on the beach completely goes back to Locke explaining the white and the black pieces playing the oldest game in the World to Walt in the very first episode on the crash beach. Nice job. This is a game being played by someone for sure, but who are the players and who are the pieces? And how does someone 'win'? Does anyone EVER win? Is that the end Jacob spoke of? And Gerald's Game sucked. That was the last of King's novels I read for a LONG time and I swear I used to devour them all. Thinner, It, and The Long Walk are still among my favorite all time reads, and I would probably say the same about 'Salems Lot and Misery, but Gerald's Game was just freaking awful. I was mad for having wasted the money to buy it and the time it took to read it...
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So the whole Widmore vs. Ben thing is just a parallel to the much more epic Jacob vs. Blackshirt. Widmore and Ben just represent the people who come to the island to exploit it. Rose and Bernard are black and white that live together, in harmony like the black & white cookie. I would bet that they are the skeletons, now. But that could change. I see them as just the nice, simple sub-story, though.
So are Jack and Locke just two other jerks who fell on this island and ended up trying to kill each other, or are they divinely influenced and now they are meant for things and can influence epic battles for a magical island? -
@IL_Deuce I think the fish was first and foremost there to plant the "red herring" idea- that the relationship between Jacob and his beachbuddy isn't quite what it seems on the surface. The fish is a fairly overt Christian symbol, too, though (sure to raise the ire of at least a few commenters among us). The fact that Jacob is happily flaying his catch ought to raise a few eyebrows, maybe. Lastly, later in the episode Ben reveals himself to be a PISCES (zodiac sign of...the fish)!
Did I miss any other references? -
Was it a Red Herring? i've heard some say it is and some say it isn't.
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red herring---GREAT CATCH.that's the lost writers having a go at us!
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And also, if the Losties are just enacting major threads from the collective unconscious, then that might explain some of the biblical and allegorical plot points characteristic of the show, as well as the odd pop cultural nods. Also much of the cryptology, as I imagine surfing the collective U would be very perplexing. This explains all the synchronicities, visions, pyschoanalysis done by Dharma and the New Agey feel And the 70's Dharma setting What I'm trying to say is Terry O'Quinn is the lizard king.
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May 14, 2009 3:14:58 PM CDT
Are we sure Jacob's not the evil one? Or are they both Evil?
by wolfman nards
It looked an awful lot like Jacob was doing some pretty bad stuff to our castaways. He was responsible for Sayid's wife's death, pushing Sawyer's revenge, and making sure Kate was going to become a hoodlum.
But I will say I have a hard time believing a "good guy" would mock his opponents death and kick him into a fire. Oye, it's going to be a long 8 months. -
To this day, I totally buy that his ideas explain a lot of things about us...
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referring to evil SPOCK?
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LIAR.
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See Jacob fry the fish,then take 2 lil sneaky looks around, and wash it down with a Mexican coca-cola? i did, and immediately cried "foul!".Okay,I didn't cry it...but I'm pretty sure my voice got scratchy
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...to how in the bible jacob wouldn't share his food with esau. And now he's all like hey buddy you want a little of my fish.
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I thought was great.Becuase Pisces are known to be great liars ( I KNOW-I dated a few, and alot of my close friends are pisces...)Mind you, I know there's ALOT of great thnigs bout pisces-but fibbers is one of there descriptions
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good stuff! i want to suscribe to alot of these theories here, but I've learned we are all wrong!But i like this theory
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its good! Natural cane sugar!
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that's what that Cylon hybrid said in "RAZOR".
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Should we just be simple and call him Esau until they give him a name?
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But you guys have been doing a wonderful job, there's no need. He's been sufficiently refuted. His post was pointless. Cherry doesn't need guys like him "defending" her.
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....like multiple times I was going to type something to add to a theory, but then I was like ughhh It's probably not even close to right, so why embarass myself. I feel strange now...Like anti locke. Except I don't have any answers, just a sort of malaise.
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I can attest for this as well, since I am one and have been running several lies for many years. It's not easy, but I'm good at it.
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So what about Widmore, is there more there than we being led to believe, same with Eloise. I just don't think the writers completely change the show and make everything that came before seem meaningless I think there's more to it that we're just not seeing. What I mean is this group headed by Illana, they came to Miles and told him he was on the wrong side, so does that mean Widmore is the bad guy or just working for him? Illana also said to Sayid that she didn't know who Ben Linus was so maybe Ben really was just a pawn, but Widmore isn't and stuff with him goes deeper. I don't know it just SEEMS like they went a completely different direction with the end of this finale, went from time travel and science to a game between Jacob and some guy, and I think we have to get back to the other stuff in some way to have questions answered.
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complete with the magic shoes. She must be in cahoots with Esau or also one of his many manipulated. That's why both Faraday and Sayid questioned trusting her.
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Bocaj, the anti-Jacob. It doesn't seem to have caught on =).
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I wanted him to at least make a cameo... possibly Walt as well :(
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Nice. http://movies.yah oo.com/premieres/13468916/stan dardformat/
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theory above? big long post..
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..man number 2. I think we're led to believe that Titus (forgot his last name) is Esau, or someone who is Jacob's rival. I think man 2 was, instead, Smokey. Not smokey incarnate. But one of Smokey's many victims (i.e. Christian, Yemi, Alex, and now Locke). Smokey takes over bodies temporarily until he finds no more use for it (when he can't figure out a way to touch Jacob), and he hops from body to body until he judges someone to be a perfect fit. Bodysnatcher!
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I didnt even feel there was that much tension the way it happened. I guess it equates to the pacing of this episode which is what I have a problem with. The finale was great but again couldve been better with some edit changes...Again, the shock of revealing Jacob shouldve been saved for the end. It wouldve made for much more of an impact that way. The whole episode you're asking yourself who is this guy that is encountering all of the O6 and even if you did think it was Jacob you still wouldnt know for sure until the end. And especially for a Season Finale, you should save all the huge shocking moments for the end.Locke saying, "Hello, Jacob..." Imagine how insane it would've been if THAT was how you found out who Jacob was... Now of course some things wouldn't have made sense without seeing the first scene of the ep (how would Locke know that was Jacob, the loophole line, Ben asking if Locke met Jacob before, etc) but its not like there's not a million other things in Lost that dont make any sense YET or haven't been revealed to us YET. Those lines would have just been topics of discussion for the next 7 months.There would've still been tension because you wouldnt know what Ben was going to do anyway. Kill Jacob OR kill Locke.After Ben kills Jacob, you think GREAT! Locke after all his trials and tribulations has finally accomplished SOMETHING! He really is special. Maybe he's the new Jacob, etc etc... Building you up for the next scene where Ilana reveals John Locke has been dead the whole time. Sun's line ("If this is Locke, who's in there???) becomes so much more bone-chilling now. Especially since we are kinda in the same place of Sun not knowing anything about who the new Locke is... (This is also why we the first scene should've been omitted. We could be debating all year about who the new Locke is.)I would've still ended it with the nuke going off and the fade-to-white tho. The more I think about it the more I like the ambiguous ending... Again, these are minor complaints but Lost usually does a perfect job of pacing, editing, building you up and leading you a certain way and then mindfucking you. I just felt they kinda dropped the ball with the whole Jacob/Locke reveal.
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or mexican coke smuggler?
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brilliant,
time to bookmark this baby, -
It would be the reason why he finally chose Locke, and manipulated Locke into getting into the only position as leader who could meet Jacob in person, to kill him. Locke had to get to the point where it seemed the island was favoring him. So, like a classic assasination plot where you get your inside man close enough to the closely protected target, either by trickery or even by hypnotizing the guy into not even knowing he's an assassin, this time you just have him die after he's achieved leader status, then take over his body, clone it or shapeshift to it, and then you go before Jacob and have him killed. Brilliant!
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That 'sort of malaise' is the dread in your stomach upon realization that we just saw our last new Lost for 9 months. I got it too, brutha.
And I'm with ya. Since the ending left S6 so wonderfully OPEN to be just about anything imaginable, I don't even know where to start talking about theories or ideas. I think I just need to let everything sink in a bit more.
By god, though, if we have 9 months to sit around and talk about this stuff, they sure gave us a lot to consider.
Let's do it, folks! Let's keep this thread going, and going, and going... -
"No thanks...I just ate."
Certainly gives a different meaning to that line, huh? -
nice! And, fuck-the road looks good.I HOPE THEY DON'T RUIN IT.although,seeing the trailer try to describe WHY the world is smoldering is unecessary and reeks of HOLLYWOOD adaptation.Either way, I'M PLEASED with the how it looks.It's VERY close to how I imagined it.
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That clears up my confusion over the h-bomb issue. Thanks for being reasonable unlike fucking assholes named il-deuce and billboefett, who hate anyone who dares to question their sacred cow called LOST. CherryValance may not require my support, but I gave it anyway because many of you have become so elitist and in love with yourself over your obsessive quest to make Lost mean something all throughout pop culture, literature, television and psychology, that you've forgotten what it's like to be challenged by the opinions of dissenters. It's healthy for people to dislike what you love. It reminds you that nothing is perfect in this world. And Billboe, until the documentaries start rolling out in a few years looking back on the Lost phenomenon, my case that they have had to improvise to keep us all guessing will not be refuted. You're not better than me because you watch Lost. Sorry.
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because GOD made me so! So quit your shit sick fixx!
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getting lower? it was 1412, then 1402-now its 1398..are we time-traveling?
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Interesting false-spoiler that turned out to be. I'm glad that's not what happened. Though in my skimming past spoilers, I caught some of it last week and thought the big game-changer would be a grownup Aaorn and Ji Yeon traveling to the Island in the future to find old versions of everyone- meaning they never got off the Island.
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You all know what that means.
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The fact that they are now openly admitting that many of the mysteries will never be resolved proves that their plans are not firmly nailed down. They created mysteries and subplots that in the end, will have been nothing but filler. Libby, Hurley's talking bird, Kelvin's backstory, Ana Lucia's connection to Christian Shephard, Cindy 'watching' Jack, what the island is (and YES, it IS a valid motherfucking question, don't try to pull the wool over my eyes with the bullshit Star Wars analogy, Carlton), etc. Now, they're flat out telling us that 'It's better to not have all your questions answered.' They're trying to sell us on the idea that it's okay to not have everything resolved to lighten their burdens. If these things aren't worth resolving, then they weren't worth bringing up in the first place!!!
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You all know what that means.
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right I have a few things that are floating through the old membrane..and please forgive me, I have not been reading the post in any depth because I only finished watching the episode there now so I may recap over stuff already said.please forgive me
Jacob and 'Esau' as I see he has been christened cannot seemingly kill each other...this mirrors Ben a d Widmore, whats the link with that???
too me it seemed like Esau was in teh cabin all along and not Jacob, maybe he was able to stick a kinda homing device on Locke so that he could clone him like the bunnies have been seemingly cloned...
Christian could be harbouring some of Jacobs spirit meaning that Jacob knew this death was coming so covered himself by using the shell of christians body as a back-up....this could also be adopted to Claire....I'd like a bit of me to be in Claire, wey hey
I really hope this is not the end of Jacob, even in Flashback I still want more...
there is bound to be huge significance in teh line at the very start in which he says it only ends one way...I breifly read someone saying above that they may have played this game like backgammon many times before, that gives off a feeling of the Matrix and the battle for Zion, in which they battled for it many times over just changing teh variables slightly but the result ending teh same.well all until sometihng fucked up like deomn Locke attacks the other main player..
I feel sad that the Locke we are watching now may not be our John Locke...whats to say the dead Locke is not a Clone and the Locke that got Ben to kill Jacob is infact our own dear John...highly unlikely due to Lockes history of being manipulating and not being a manipulator
Loved Miles shouting 'dad' when releasin his father from the bar crushing his arm..its just a mini part but its very poignant...my minds melted there is so much more to talk about....im sure it will all flood back in teh next 8 months...I think Im going to cry
one last thing, when Jacob is dying he said something like 'their coming'....is this refering to Widmore, or the return of Jack et al, or something else entirely, maybe this Esau chap was responsible for sending some of the 316 passengers to 1977, to get them out of the road, or maybe Jacob did it...rither way let the speculation begin...really enjoyed the ep..
God dam it I love this show..
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your post was pointless, thats all. And you were refuted. End of story. Moving along... no animosity or anything. Its perfectly possible for mature adults to disagree and not have to jump back and forth between "he's the coolest!" or "he's a dick". Now calm down.
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Is everyone referring to the mystery guy/faux Locke as Esau just because the other guy is named Jacob? I would be all for it if there were some kind of proof. I know, one was wearing a white shirt and one was wearing black, and Jacob and Esau were twins, and no one is named by accident on this show. But no one’s looking beyond that. It’s not like either of them were evil at any point.
Esau had serious anger management issues and Jacob was a shifty liar, so of course Esau wanted to kill him for tricking their father into giving him Esau’s birthright and blessing. Then Jacob skipped town for decades, hiding in fear from his brother until one day, Esau caught up with him. And you know what? He forgave him. He actually forgave him years earlier, but Jacob always ran the other way whenever he heard Esau was anywhere near. So they made up. Then, fast forward a couple decades later and Jacob isn’t even called Jacob anymore, his name is Israel. We can kind of guess where it goes from there.
Don’t mean to go into a long Bible study or anything (and that was a SERIOUS condensing of the story), I’m just wondering why we’re calling faux Locke Esau, other than a lack of a better name. This new guy was just introduced last night, I need a bit more to go on. Obviously there’s a rule saying he can’t kill Jacob, and maybe it flows both ways. I believe, as some do, that it’s the smoke monster. Well, if they’re 2 sides of the same whatever, is Jacob’s true form is a white mist or something? I mean, I doubt it since his corpse was kicked into the fire, but who knows? I’m going with the Narnia allegory; though, other than the Lamp Post, there isn’t much else. But, imho, that’s still more that someone wanting to kill a guy named Jacob.
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and not in the way we think. I think Jacob (or fake-Jacob) had to touch everyone to do something to them in all the flashbacks.
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we're calling him that for lack of a better name, not because we're all convinced he's the biblical character, ok?
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Once the Locke corpse was revealed, I suddenly felt a great deal of fear for Ben because he was being led astray by an impostor who may be tricking Ben into doing something potentially catastrophic, something that might eternally damn his soul, making him even more of a pawn than we previously thought (when we thought it was Locke doing it). NOT showing the Locke corpse before this scene COMPLETELY robs the scene of that sort of tension. If we pretend that we didn't know Locke was faux-Locke, than that scene has no real tension. Sure, its weird when Jacob talks to Locke like "You found your loophole," and we wonder when the two talked before, but some of us who thought Locke was performing a mercy killing on Jacob would not feel any of the "oh no, is he going to do it?!?!" associated with Ben. Once you realize Locke is not really Locke, you suddenly do NOT want Ben to kill Jacob because we've entered into the dark realm of the unknown and this event could be disastrous. If we don't see Locke's corpse before this moment, we just perceive the scene as a moment of wishy-washiness on Ben's behalf, but it would lack all real tension. And on the subject of revealing Jacob in the opening or not- If they hadn't, come on, we all would have figured out its Jacob way before the reveal at the end. Why would they show us scenes of a mysterious character for 2 hours in flashbacks while Locke and company go to meet Jacob? Itd be way to obvious, and then when the reveal happens, it would feel amateur, with the audience saying "Well, duh, that much was obvious." I get what you're saying, I just don't think you get the maximum effectiveness by leaving the reveals to the end. Corpse Locke was revealed at the perfect moment. If they showed us the corpse after we see Jacob killed- well then that's it. There is NO other scene following that. Its just sort of a "what the hell?" moment and feeling, but there is NOTHING else- no dread, no tension. Its just a "wtf" moment and that's all. Pretty emotionless, really. And a bit confusing.
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...typing guy number two in the black shirt who was by the fire pit at the begginning of the finale talking to jacob takes a little more effort....
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in the flashbacks. You almost expect a jolt of electricity when he hands Jack the Apollo bar. He's doing something to them. Note how he touches the Quons at their wedding.
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will have been to allow them to remember the timeline that was erased when the years rewind.
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...on this doll.
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Because ACIN deletes double posts since it takes up extra bandwidth.
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"Possession" seems to be a key...I remember very much when Mr. Eko was following his "dead" brother, and broke down emotionally in front of him. Then, in creepy fashion, his brother says, "Why do you refer to me as your brother?"
Does this imply that "Esau" is transferring from host to host? Is Jacob's arch-rival in fact the smoke-monster? These theories are really starting to come into fruition. -
Then it sounds like you want every bit of minutiae explained to you? The Hurley Bird? Kelvin's backstory? Kelvin's?!? What the hell does that matter? There IS no backstory! He was a secondary character that ended up in two LOSTies lives- that's all! Christian's relationship to Ana-Lucia? That's been explained. They just met in a bar or something. You've got to be trolling bc I don't believe any sane person would deem this show a failure because they didn't get answers for that kind of (in some cases, already explained) "mystery".
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...said here, but it's obvious that the LOST writers plan on taking the show's plot into a religious-themed direction. In fact, the concept seems like a Twilight Zone episode--two omniscient super beings fighting over humanity through the ages on a Garden of Eden-like island---which reportedly is one of Abrams' major influences.
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Loved the episode.
Here's what happens next season. The white light is the incident, not the nuke. The losties from 77 go back to 2007 but the losties and everyone else in 2007 are back to episode 1. The past losties have the knowledge of what just happened in 77 and the fact that they lived in 2007 but the people in 2007 are just experiencing the plane crash for the first time and like episode 1 don't know anyone yet. Now you have the same people but some of them have knowledge that the others don't possess. So now everyone is alive but only Jack, Sawyer, Kate, ect. know about time travel, the hatch, the others. Locke, Boon, ect. do not. So they did change the past but not the present but could change the future. As Faraday said, the past is our present and we can die, and he did. At the same time though in the present, 2007, he has not yet come to the island so he still lives.
Now with this knowledge Jack and Co. can lead the others better and avoid the Others and the hatch and know how to get off the island. So they spend the night on the beach and the next day they show everyone how to get home. They can't explain how they know but know one cares because they are going home. Sawyer tracks down Julia, since in the present she hasn't died yet, and gets her to fall in love with him all over again. Hurley writes and great story that he turns into a tv show called Lost. Jack and Kate get married and raise rugrats. Miles appears in 2007 but not on the island of course since he hasn't gone there yet but has all the knowledge of being in 77 on the island. And of course there is more stuff but that's all I have at the moment.
About the finale I'm hoping they go with Jacob and the other guy are aliens, possibly it's Arron's school project and a story he wrote or this is what cats think about when they are sleeping.
Another opening for season six is it's now 400 years in the future and a space craft crashes on the island and we start this crazy shit all over again. -
is the symbol of the first christians.
I agree to call man #2 Mexican coke smuggler (short it MCS), it sounds great. -
Then Esau it is!
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And injured either Jacob or Esau?? More likely Esau than Jacob. This allowed the others to trap Esau in the cabin. From 1977 on, no children were born on the island. This was the result of Jacob. He was preventing Esau from bodysnatching the newborns. This is also why children were removed if they arrived on the island.
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People are complaining about the religious aspects. They are also complaining about a change in seasons. But while there has be changes every season the changes have been an element in the show since it started.Time Travel has been an element since at least back when Sayid & Hurley were listening to the radio and getting songs from the past and Desmond Flashing.
It has always been mythological with the four toed foot, eygptian symbols, etc.
It has always been religious since day one with Rose, Charlie, Eko plus loads of symbolism.
Lost has always been and always will be Religious, Science, Time Travel, Mythology, Romance, Sci-Fi, Mystery, Action & Adtenture, Character stories and many others things. Thats what makes it so great! -
It's very sad you have to resort to name calling. Oh well... no sweat of my gigons. (gigantic balls)
Anyway... your theories... they reek of stupid. Just stop son... just stop. -
The fish is still used for Christian groups, as evidenced by many rear car magnets. Not to get too religious, but it represents Jesus telling Peter that he'd make him a fisher of men. Or something, I think.
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I have every right to be here same as anybody else. I will continue to express my discontent with the show when I watch it if it is not on par with my expectations. And if they are so 'minute', then why bring them up to begin with? That's my problem here. I don't like to feel like I wasted time watching something. I really want to like Lost in the way that I once did, but they work over time to infuriate me and over time on little else. The troll shit has gotten as old as the time travel shit on the show. I'm not here for attention. The forums are open to me, thus I use them. I can't be the only one that's frustrated over them blatantly saying Libby's mystery would never bs solved! She was in three very different situations, a patient at Hurley's hospital, a stranger talking to Desmond about his boat and a shrink on the island. THAT DOESN'T NEED EXPLAINING!? You have to be kidding me! And you might be right for the Ana Lucia/Christian thing, but they met in a bar? That's the extent of it? Very weak.
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or is it?
and I'll bet you cash monies Rich Alpert (Ricardus) is on the Black Rock. -
Kelvin was not only Sayid's handler, but also Desmond's hatchmate? I've wanted to know that since the end of season 2, 3, whichever the fucking one where Desmond used the fail safe key.
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and that would be all the scenes that took place in 2007. Just because the scenes were intercut does NOT mean they were happening at the same time.
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I guess thats why I didnt feel the tension you did for the Jacob death scene. I love Ben. He's a great great character. One of the most interesting/entertaining ones of the show but whatever happens to him happens. I cant really be sympathetic towards him for whatever he does and I LIKE violent, manipulative sociopaths!!!Locke OTOH is probably one of the most sympathetic characters of all time. I just would've liked to have thought he (the real Locke) was going to win by accomplishing what his 'purpose' was and killing Jacob. The thought of Locke winning >>> Worrying what was going to happen to Ben... Ben could get a nuke to the face for all I care...
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I'm not the only one with the name calling. 'Troll' ring a bell? Not a very inspired argument. If I'm a troll, so is CherryValance. Shit, you people get a kick out of that dioxholster guy. Yet you maintain a malevolent tone with me. BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH THE DIRECTION OF A TV SHOW! I'd hate to see how you treat your casual viewer loved ones!
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May 14, 2009 4:41:06 PM CDT
its amazing what the introduction of a nameless character can do
by maximus prime
Darlton has opened a can of worms here..
did anyone know of teh two Locke revelation before the finale aired???im looking at you here pa..haha -
they may as well explain Abadon and how he's a person that "get's people where they need to be".
Listen Sick Fixx... both Jacob and Esau have agents on AND off the island. Maybe Libby and Abadon were agents by proxy (one worked for Widmore and one for Ben).
and who exactly is controlling Widmore then?
That's the thing... we just aren't being told yet! We have another season coming and more answers will roll out. Till then... you should really consider being less of a whiney bitch in regards to your complaints. If you're going to complain about something, make sure you back up why it aggravates you with solid reasoning.
You know what though? Maybe this show just isn't for you. Too much of that good 'ol fashioned "Thinking" required for you to watch.
Might I suggest American Idol for you, good sir? -
I think I'm more in D.Vader's camp on this one as far as the preferred execution goes. I will say, however, that there wasn't much suspense in my mind for that scene. With the foreknowledge that this was a season-ending cliffhanger and given the setup of the first scene of the episode, I was 100 percent certain that Ben was going to stab Jacob. I think leaving us to ponder the potential implications of that is a nice way to end it. We might have an idea who faux-Locke is, but it's still mostly speculative in terms of ultimate motives and effects.
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Been up since 9am and have been emailing friends all day coming up with a comprehensive theory based on what we know (so much for work). Here's what we thought of and i'll break it up in sections to make it easier to read. The Loophole: Let's forget everything is speculative right now and accept that the RULES (much like the rules that were echoed in 'The Shape of Things to Come' between Ben and Widmore) includes that Jacob and Esau (or smokey incarnate, or man number 2, or smokey itself, or whatever [want some fish?...nope, I just ate...A BODY. THIS GUY. LIKE MY DIGS?) cannot harm each other (and this can be traced back to the biblical story. haven't read it, but i read somewhere that they couldn't harm each other under God's law or something?). The whole conversation in the beginning was fascinating. "You brought them here", references to fighting and corruption, and Jacobs response, "It only ends once, everything else after is jsut progress" all indicates a perpetual cycle that is motivated by the rivalry between the two entities. I think Jacob and Esau were originally put on the island (however that may have come to be) with certain roles. Jacob's role was to create the perfect society. He would summon certain vessels across the epochs of time to establish his grand society (i.e. Ancient Egypt, the Black Rock, 815, The List). This, as social commentary tends to exclaim, usually leads to "fighting" "corruption" and most of the time, death. Esau/Smokey's role was to be St. Peter at the head of the gate. He would scan the lives of these people, judge them, and deem whether or not they are good enough to stay on the island. After thousands of years, Esau/Smokey felt that this attempt at the perfect society was futile, threw down his fiery sword and gave Jacob the finger (ala Ben Afflect in Dogma). Jacob, however, continues to try to find his perfect society without the help of his counterpart. Esau/Smokey has other plans Knowing that he has powers of judgment through scanning technology (no doubt developed by Steve Jobs), Smokey no longer judges people to deem whether or not they are fit for the island, but whether or not they are fit for his own plan. His plan being finding a vessel for which a loophole can be found, and that is finding someone to kill Jacob for him. Which would explain why when he found Locke, Locke described it as a "bright light" and "beautiful". Esau saw Locke as a pathetic fool, broken and in shambles, and as Eddie said, "your psych profile siad you were amenable to coercion". This would also explain how Esau met Eko and why he eventually killed him. Esau tries to find many vessels, and when he found Eko, a man tied to his dead brother (who was on the island! perfect) and spiritual, Esau can exploit those characteristics for his plan. But when Eko refused to repent in front of Evil Yemi, Esau realized that he has no use for Eko; thus, he killed him. It seems like Esau/Smokey's plan was originally to have Locke kill Jacob, and he used Christian Shephard (a body he possessed beforehand) to fulfill his bidding. Why did Christian/Esau need eveyrone back? Perhpas because he needed Ben to come back to complete the second part of the loophole, and maybe because Locke did in fact need to die? Perhaps Esau exploited the relaitonship between Locke and Ben and preyed on Ben's inferority as a leader. Realizing this, Esau left Christian as a vessel (if replication does not exist) and instead found Locke's to be much more fitting to be the guide, and Ben as the loophole. Ben is the second half of the loophole.
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stop fighting fire with fire then, and turn the other cheek. You're pouring fuel on the fire, or fanning the flames. People are overly sensitive right now because they LOVED this finale and there's been too many trolls coming in here going "eh... BSG is better" or "eh... Stargate is better" or complaining about things we don't think are valid complaints. Forgive, forget, and move on. If they can't, at least you can be the better man and set the example. Give them what they aren't giving you, some slack.
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Stupid? Yes. Simple? Sort of...
Now just step back from the keyboard Sick Fixx, breathe, count to five and THEN come back.
This time with less bitching. -
May 14, 2009 4:45:18 PM CDT
Sick Fixx, if you don't want to be accused of trolling, then sto
by d.vader
Stop. The. Trolling. I'll tell you what your problem is, you attribute your misunderstanding of the show to the writers and producers. Why? Because, by your own admission, you DON'T EVEN WATCH THE SHOW! Up above you stated you broke your ban on watching LOST to watch the finale, and then you have the gall to accuse the show of not making sense? Of COURSE it won't make sense when you don't fucking watch. Its so simple. And this isn't the first time you've come here with criticisms against the show after admitting you don't even watch. So take that nonsense somewhere else. As for Ana-Lucia and Christian, yes they met in a bar. She was working security at an airport. He decided to hire her as his personal guard for his trip to Australia. Its simple. How do you want more explained? There is no connection there.
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yeah, as their fucking driver! i am finally fed up w/ darlton making a big fucking deal out of something and then just sweep it under the rug. i don't need everything explained to me, but if you yell titties, then guess what i want to see.
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Tawaret has 4 toes.
Sobek has 5
I think Juliette is going way back in time and she's pregnant. With twins. With her skills she becomes a goddess among the primitives on the island back then. Her twins are Jacob and Esau.
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You complain about the show you admit you don't watch. That's not always the case, but that's definitely what's happened in this tb in regards to this episode. "Why would Jack think a bomb would set back time?!?" If you had actually watched, you would know.
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Athiests:1 Religion: 0
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Lostpedia has Ben's birth date being somewhere in December.
Now, seeing as I am a Pisces and I was born on March 1, I'm starting to think someone is lying. -
Does anyone remember the flash where our time traveling losties were in the boat being shot at, only to flash into the middle of a rain storm... who was shooting at them? i don't recall it being Ilana.. and there is no way they're boat would have closed the gap considering they were carrying the trunk? ...
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...they are not jacob and mexican coke smuggler.
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Of course it doesn't bother me that he's been in both Sayid and Desmond's life. That's been the constant theme of this show- how they and the people around them have all intersected in each others' lives at one point or another. There's no need to go into some garbled plot about how Kelvin planned to be in both of their lives for some ulterior motive. Its just the way the show has always worked. Everyone's related.
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The title cards (e.g., "thirty years later") would seem to indicate that the past is still set and that we're in a closed loop. A bomb detonation would seem to explain Richard's belief that they died. But if it's that obvious, it really seems like they're holding our hand having Miles point it out for us as if it's some frightening revelation that Jack's actions are the source of "The Incident." Additionally, the fact that there was a magnetic "incident" prior to the bomb detonation does tease us with the possibility of two separate events.Basically, I don't know where the fuck they're going with this. They've got their work cut out for them, though.
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people are talking about religion here and the brothers of Jacob and Esau....maybe these are two people fighting for the arrpoval of a father figure, now Im not a religous man so not a clue who that would be but when Moses was mentioned there seemed to be a wee smirk on Locke's???? face....
but the island is seemingly be fought for by two seperate entities and Ben and Widmore and our Losties are nothing but Pawns in their battle...good times -
If you don't care about Ben to begin with, then I guess it won't matter whether you feel tension in the scene or not =).
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It seemed that Jacob knew he was going to die. He saw Locke walk in and immediately knew that it wasn't John Locke. He saw Ben wield a giant fucking knife and still he remained calm as a cucumber. When Ben went on his "What About Bob?" rant, Jacob provoked him, almost saying, "Yeah stab me right here, dammit". When he did, he whispered to John, "they're coming". Evil Locke looks to the door, believing he's referring to Illana and Richard, but I think the audience is led to believe that our 815ers are the people who will be coming. Jacob's rouse was that he would always be trying to find a perfect society, but instead, he was looking for people to recruit in his favor. I'm not enitrely sure why 815ers, especially the O6 are unique to Jacob, but judging by the flashbacks and his special "touch", we know they are standing out from the rest. All I can think of right now is because of the fact that Jacob somehow knows that Jack and company have been on the island twice in two different time periods. Or maybe, and I still believe this to be true despite last night, that the Shephard family is important to the island, and Jack is supposed to be the new leader. Regardless, Jacob did go around and touch ALL of them (except Juliet..which was a weird flashback considering Jacob was gone and that everything on set looked like Ikea). Jacob touched Kate on the nose, Sawyer when he gave him his pen, Locke when he fell out the window (giving him new life), Sun and Jin on the shoulders at their wedding, Sayid right after Nadia is struck (did Jacob do that?), Jack when he hands him his apollo bar and Hurley before he exits the cab. What does this touch do to everyone else besides Locke? Did it give them the ability to flash to 1977? (If so, why didn't Sun flash?), or was it supposed to be a set up for the end game? Since Jacob knew the bomb would be going off, did he find the people that would make it happen and give them some secret metaphysical island power? Are they all pieces of Jacob and one day will forge rings to come together to become Captain Jacob? No FUCKING idea. All we know now is that Jacob watched these people and put them in places that would help him out after his death/in the future. For all we know, Jacob is the only, besides Desmond, that can change the future (maybe this is how Desmond gets played back in next season).
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"people around them have all intersected" ... similar to weaving a tapestry that takes or 1000 years to finish...that's what this show is at it's core...
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I think when Jacob said to LOcke/Mexican cock sucker "they're coming" hi was referring to their 'superiors'.
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I'm thinking that season 6 may mainly take place in the temple, it will be the equivilant of seasons 1 beach...all the action will be based around it
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I got that he saved Sayid's life. The car was going to run her down either way...Jacob just made sure Sayid didn't get hit too because he was needed on the island. (Destiny=gutshot. lol Sayid.)Or that was my take at least.
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The Losties won't be resetting to Season one again. That would mean they would need to hire Boone, Shannon, Anna Lucia, Eko, Charlie etc again. Likewise the Producers have said no more time travelling next series. I can't see them spending a few episodes getting the Losties to return to the island again in the event of a complete reset and never crashing on the island.. So how and where is Season 6 going to be set
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team Widmore.
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So... nah!
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Is the island God?
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wikipedia it. Tawaret has had both heads. Both hippo and gator.
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"In their art, Taweret was depicted as a composite of all the things the Egyptians feared, the major part of her being hippopotamus, since this is what the constellation most resembled, with the arms and legs of a lioness, and with the back of a crocodile. On occasion, later, rather than having a crocodile back, she was seen as having a separate, small crocodile resting on her back, which was thus interpreted as Sobek, the crocodile-god, and said to be her consort." Check out the pic (hippo head, but gator teeth): http://tinyurl.com/prowgk
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May 14, 2009 5:04:48 PM CDT
Comprehensive Theory (Take 3: The Cabin, Richard and Flannery O
by billypilgrimisunstuck
The Cabin: I think we can rest assured that Esau was the man in the cabin when he asked Locke to "help him" in season three. And yes, Locke did eventually help him. Jacob some how captured Esau and placed him in the cabin. And then we find that the ash was broken and he's free to wnader around again. Still think that Richard was on the Black Rock as a prisoner. Not exactly sure why he's so important to Jacob and why there's a level of trust between them. And I used to think that Richard was resurrected in Egyptian times and became RA to the Egyptians, but that seems to be flying out the window. Finally, one last note about what season 6 can posisbly have in store for us. When Jacob was waiting for Locke to fall out an 8 story window, he was reading Flannery O Conners book of short stories, Everything that Rises Must Converge. While the stories in the book itself do not really correlate well with the themes of Lost, the title, taken from the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin Lifted the following passage from the Fuselage: Teilhard studied what he called the rise of spirit, or evolution of consciousness, in the universe. He believed it to be observable and verifiable in a simple law he called the Law of Complexity/Consciousness. This law simply states that there is an inherent compulsion in matter to arrange itself in more complex groupings, exhibiting higher levels of consciousness. The more complex the matter, the more conscious it is. Teilhard proposed that this is a better way to describe the evolution of life on earth, rather than Herbert Spencer's " survival of the fittest." The universe, he argued, strives towards higher consciousness, and does so by arranging itself into more complex structures. I think that is a BIG hint to what is to come.
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May 14, 2009 5:04:56 PM CDT
D. Vader...another one for the "everything's related" pile...
by executor
...Sawyer's girlfriend. She coincidentally ran into Kate and their lives intersected...not some big scheme. I agree that Kelvin isn't some giant scheme. People looking for Big Answers for little characters are fishing in an empty pond.
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NOT EVERYTHING ON WIKIPEDIA IS TRUE!
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Old Charles will be bringing teh kitchen sink to try and wrestle teh island back from whoever he has too, maybe he was thinking it would be against Jacob but now its Zombie possessed Locke...
could it be only the two men together could ensure the survival of the island...with one being killed!!! maybe possessed Locke has to promote someone to Island caretaker with him....possibly Jack...
Jack and Locke leading the losties and others against team Widmore...one can only dream -
Since, IMO, Des (and so Penelope) as to take a part in season 6. Plus even if there's no more time travel I still hope we'll see again DI people and so Widdy and Hawking. It sounds Widmore wants that Island so bad.He has to be part of the end.
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OMG. that IS what the show turned in to. ugh. remember the man who helped charlie kick H w/ his little cocoon speech. he could help free it, but then it wouldn't be as strong.
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She talked people into bringing Locke back with the magic shoes, so either she's in cahoots with Esau, or was duped by him
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...what the fuck will desmond do? i mean, thats his thing.
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Is that there is nothing in the Bible stating that Jacob and Esau couldn't harm each other. They could have killed each other at any time, except Esau wanted to wait until his father was dead before it happened.
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...does one of those public searches for island caretaker.
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as far as the island mass-moving, people jumping all over, and different groups of main characters living in separate decades apart. I don't think its ruling out flashbacks, or Desmond doing his thing
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Jacob and Esau. We've just nicknamed the other guy that. Period.
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The true question is : who knows about Esau/Mexican coke smuggler/man#2. 'Cause it seems he took everybody by surprise.Also why Jacob was moved into the Cabin, and Did Horace really built it?
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The emphasis on Jacob physically *touching* the 815ers brings me back around to the Cosmic Wager that frames the book of Job, in which Satan is initially forbidden from touching Job:
Job 1:12 And YHWH said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has in your hand; only do not lay a hand on him."
Then, when Satan's efforts to turn Job against God have all failed, he is granted permission to physically interfere but not to kill:
"Behold, he is in your hand, but don’t touch his life."
Am I wrong in thinking LOST is beginning to feel like a variation on this story, writ large? -
would not be red herring.
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I knew that there would be two deaths small and majorish, but didn't know who. The only hints were that the Majorish death (Juilet) would be as sad as the Charlie death and the person would be of opposite physicaly of Charlie. (Man/Woman) I also knew about all of the Jacob visits. I didn't know about evil Locke or Jacob's enemy.
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... And the righteous and unrighteous alike were consumed in that holy fire." The Stand homage much? Good call above, Jack was the Trashcan man.
And Esau is Seth, the Egyptian god of chaos, darkness, and storms. Where have we seen anything resembling a chaotic, moving thundercloud with lightning bolts and thunderclaps on the island? -
people are saying that was NOT jacob in the cabin.. but Esau pretending to be Jacob.. Jacob imprisoned him there using the ash.. and Locke broke the circle when he approached the cabin. Then Christian Shepard (really Esau) hides in there waiting to manipulate Locke, and Claire I guess. The Ilana group discovered the cabin has been compromised, she was hesistant to enter, not expecting Jacob to be in there.. but Esau, her enemy. They found evidence (the parchment with the statue on it) that someone has been "using it".. meaning Esau. The reincarnation/possession scam he's been pulling to get close to Jacob.
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TB poster "35MinutesAgo":
"LOST is absolutely 100% the story of Jacob and Esau."
Yes, some people ARE declaring that the two on the island are Jacob and Esau. -
Lost stand entirely on that or that book of the bible or Novel, etc...It's just a clever mix of small parts from these, SMALL PARTS, or it would be too easy.
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May 14, 2009 5:22:14 PM CDT
Like someone posted it would be awesome if Jacob and..
by hollywoodhellraiser
the other guy was both the BIG BAD! I mean really the evidence is there to suggest Jacob is more bad than good. And great to have these 2 just toying with everybody for their amusement, sorta like a game!I hope they leave the good vs. evil to the Losties and have Walt come and own'd both these guys!
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The two people I watched it with both noticed that the cabin where Rose and Bernard are living and Jacob's cabin (shown in the very next flash-forward scene) looked identical and that the surrounding clearing and trees were the same. They were quite vehement about this. Did anyone else notice this? I was always under the impression that Jacob's cabin was much farther inland and that Horace built it. I just sort of figured "seen one wooden cabin, seen 'em all," but they were quite vehement about the similarity - not that there'd be some sort of killer significance if they were the same cabin...
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about Jacob not being in the cabin, but I can't figure out how team ILana has been fooled, and who puts the clue (the piece of tapestry with four toed statue on it).Why Mexican coke smuggler would have let that?
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Brilliant. I think you just summed up most of my own over-arching thoughts and theories about the show. Gimmie more...
Captain Jacob, he's our hero... -
Guys sometimes things doesn' mean shit! Dalton could easily ignore the "touching" and then some of you will be pissed.I honestly don't see this as a potential plot device, in fact I hope Jacob is truly dead.It would be so awesome to have this big buildup of Jacob only to have him die so easily.
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Search for the screen grabs--it's the same actor who played him yesterday.
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In the beginning Jacob has a knife, or machete, that he cooks the fish with. I'm pretty sure that same knife is what was pinning the piece of cloth to the cabin wall.
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Ilana realized Cabin has been compromised she expected to find Jacob here. plus MCS didn't have any reasons for team Ilana to meet him at the statue. At least it don't make sense to me.
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Darlton was giving hints about the finale, and said it would be very "touching" and not in the way we'd think (as in, emotionally, romantically, etc.) They said people are touched by someone. The fact that you can go and re-watch the finale and note how Jacob has to make physical contact with EVERY single 815er in the flashback, especially the way he goes out of his way to awkwardly touch Sun and Jin at their wedding, is strongly implying that his touching people is doing "something". Some sort of inspiration or manipulation. The fact that Darlton listed this as a finale hint among others GIVES IT IMPORTANCE. Now calm down. Too many people shoving their foots in their mouth on this talkback.
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I actually can't remember if it was something to do with the hatch or not because if it wasn't, and assuming the reset works, wouldn't Desmond still end up on the island and this time never be able to get off?
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Titus Welliver never appeared on the show before finale, the presence in the Cabin was portrayed by two different actors, I think Carlton Cuse portrayed the eye! Seriously.So you're wrong. No offense .
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Darlton hinted in an EW interview that the finale would be "touching" and not in an emotional way.
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He entered a world-wide boat race to gain Penny's father's respect (Widmore). At some point during the race, he got off course and his boat crashed on the island. Kelvin found him and took him to the hatch and began training him as his replacement.
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Was it past his bedtime??????
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Interesting stuff.
I saw a screengrab of the original side-by-side with a screengrab of last night on another forum, and they look exactly the same.
You're probably right, though. Maybe they just picked a similar looking actor.
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where the hell was Desmond??????
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Something just occured to me, I wonder if the things in Richards test of Locke all represented ether Jacob or Esau?
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Ben got played by John "Palpatine" Lock
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Thanks. So if Jack's (previously Faradays) plan works then Desmond could still end up on the island, only this time there would be no helicopter to take him off the island, since the electromagnetic force would have been destroyed by the bomb, Penny would have nothing to lock on to and since there would be no button to push, Desmond would...what...wander the nuked island until the radiation kills him, just like what he thought would happen to him if he left the hatch in the original timeline.
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Thanks everyone for those great discussions.BY the way any of you can be here early in the morning tomorrow cause both the thousand bottles of mexican cokes and the new loom I ordered will be delivered at 8 am. Don't forget to extinct torches before leaving.Bye everybody, see you tomorrow.
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Is the man in black Sutekh,(a shape shifter, he became Marcus Scarman)Jacob the eye of harmony that held Sutekh prisoner. Jack,Kate and the ones touched by Jacob are together Jocob that must come together to defeat Sutekh. The island is Suteks prison.
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ow did Ilyana know that burning down the cabin wouldn't set the jungle on fire?
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Vincent & The Smoke Monster won the fan choice poll. So my next three character designs will be Richard, Vincent & The Smoke Monster.
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bastard can't change his mind!
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people are arguing for jacks plan working. we saw 2007, looked the same. dharmaville, old lostie camp, statue. if jughead was MORE than the incident, we would have seen things different. no?
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http://www.pvponline.com/
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You must have read me wrong. I am specifically arguing AGAINST the idea that the two storylines are happening in parallel. This is why I don't believe Jack will be able to change the future--because Locke et al are already there in the future that follows on Jack's being in the past.
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May 14, 2009 6:02:16 PM CDT
re:Ben killing Jacob= Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap!!
by hollywoodhellraiser
While I agree with you I think Ben was going to do something.Ben was going to interject himself somewhere in that meeting whether Locke told him too or not! C'mon this is Ben.
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Ben & Jacob's relationship was like Darth Vader & Palpatine's relationship.
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Then Trashcan Man, or in this case Jack and company, detonates the bomb and thwarts EVIL LOCKE's plans. that's what Jacob meant when he said "they're coming". Jacob has been preparing for this moment and EVIL LOCKE is now very pissed off.
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We still don't know what roll the apparent US Army mission played on the island. Were they simply one of the many groups who came to the island and battled over it? Or something more... could Jacob and Esau once have been ordinary men living in an ordinary time line? And if so, could they have been soldiers or researchers from the Army who came to the island and got caught up in a horrible time space/time vortex in some previous accident or experiment? I wonder this because of their manner of speaking and even their modern haircuts in that opening scene. They certainly aren't straight out of ancient Egypt or the bible.
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If thats true then Jacob would be working for the dark side. Personally, this works better for me then Jacob being the benevolent angel the writers would have us believe. Going into the last season, the final act, everything must be turned on its head next season. There's something strange about Jacob dieing the first time we meet him. As if they want us to side with him from the start. In terms of The Fall. Paradise Lost. Heaven and hell? The Devil is actually the champion of free will. Prometheus liberated man with fire and was punished for it, just like the serpent gave us the apple from the tree of knowledge and was banished for his treachery accordingly. Free will is considered a burden on man from a biblical perspective. It, along with our banishment from Eden, is our punishment for Original Sin. Thus, the devil makes us capable of doing good and evil because he gave us the option to chose one from the other.
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i felt kinda bad for him when jacob said "what about you?" like who gives a crap about you, youre nothing...kinda like being spit on, slapped, punched in the jaw then taking a knee to the crotch....i woulda stabbed the bastard too.... lol
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and take your verbal abuse? Who the fuck do you think you are? You're fucking ridiculous,and it will never happen. Your best bet is to just pretend I don't post here, even though I will continue to do so regardless of whether or not anyone reads it.
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May 14, 2009 6:38:10 PM CDT
You have to laugh at the scene with Jack and Jacob
by christian_bale_trashed_my_lights
Okay, so everyone else gets a few prophetic words or (in the case of Hurley) a full on interventon.Jack? Well, Jacob turns up just so that he can give him his chocolate bar which got stuck in the vending machine.And then he just fucked off!
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And in choosing, Jack chose his destiny. I dunno, that's all I got. ;)
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As rational as they claim they are. Their main intent is still to provoke others simply because they don't agree with a preference or taste. Just leave it alone.
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I think they were just trying to show that Jacob had been there watching over the important events in the lives of the characters
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... was extremely ambiguous. The actor said it with no emotion or emphasis. Of course you can take it how Ben took it as an insult but it COULD'VE been genuine empathy as well. At least thats the way *I* heard it... Ben's own self-doubt and negative perception led him to think Jacob was insulting him IMO...
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...but if history has been changed, y'all are assuming that Desmond would still be on the yacht racing around the world. That does not seem to be a given to me, as we can't assume that the Island's fate, the Others' fates, and Widmore's fate would be the same.
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That opening scene reminded me of the begining of the book of Job where Satan comes to God and they have a discussion about Job and if Satan is allowed to tempt Job and test him. and God telling Satan that Job is the type of person that could stay strong amid any trial that Satan would be able to give him.
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I thought I heard some emphasis from Jacob on the 'about' (geezus, is this what we've degenerated to? Trying to pick out how a particular actor delivered a line?). But the impression I got, from his delivery and the way he said it...Ben was essentially asking why he wasn't special enough, why he wasn't as 'stuper kewl' as Locke. I think Jacob's answer was either saying 'what about you? You're really not that special,' or, 'what about you? You're a liar and a killer and a terrible person. Maybe you should look in the mirror, buddy, 'cuase I think you already know the answer.' Personally, I believe it was the latter.
And also, most actors talking about their 'Lost' experience say they have no fucking idea what they're talking about in any given line. Sooo...maybe just tilting at windmills here. -
Because it could have happened this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibc6QkXaZJ4 -
How many times has the show set us up to see Ben as someone who acts rashly when his emotions are involved? He's got that selfish streak a mile wide. Esau/Locke played into that perfectly. I'm a little confused about why Jacob practically eggs him on with that "what ABOUT you?" line, but suspect it's all Part of the Plan. Emerson plays the slow burn beautifully. I was talking to the screen during that scene. "No, Ben, don't do it! C'mon, think about it! You're being fucked with!" And as much as I prefer Ben in the position of manipulator, to see him fall prey to an even better manipulator was pretty awesome.
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was backtrackin thru the posts and saw ur back n forth with sickfixx....hav to agree with u...if u dont watch the show all season then watch the finale because he thinks hes bing fair then dont know whats goin on and then blame the writers, it stinks of trolling and plain ol stupidity, and arrogance on top with a rotten cherry....
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So when Jacob and and the man in the dark shirt are talking at the beginning of the episode about the ship, the man say something I can't make out. He first asks 'how did they find the island?', then Jacob says 'you'll have to ask them when they get here'. THEN the man says 'I don't have to ask, ___ brought them here'. At first I thought he said 'you brought them here', but he doesn't, it sounds and looks like 'brue brought them here', which to me makes no sense. Is this a meaningless tidbit or is there more to this?
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good point...tho i was taking the words with the expression on jacobs face, which IMO wasnt exactly one of empathy....lol
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I thought he said "JEWS" brought them here... ?
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So did I.............jewish pirates selling slaves.....yea right. Glad to see I was not the only one.
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...on the what ABOUT you. You can tell that he meant something other than the way Ben took it. Honestly, I think that THAT was his moment. That was always supposed to be his only face to face with Jacob so that he would slowly be building up this hatred leading up to that moment. If he would have met Jacob earlier than when that moment came there's no way he would have stabbed jacob, which It seems is what Jacob wanted all along. But who knows right.
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I *think* yoda's response was a joke too.
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May 14, 2009 7:48:25 PM CDT
is this lost talkback gonna go on for fuckin ever too?
by supercowbell4therequestformorecowbell
i remember one of the season finale ones last until the next seasons premiere...jesus
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Is it possible that the army and Jugghead may have arrived in something like the Philadelphia Experiment or some other urban myth/alternative history involving the Gov't tampering with space/time? The creators of the show definitely like to leave references open to new age stuff like this. Plus, if this were shown, it would technically be (interdimensional) space travel rather than time travel. So this would give the writers a loophole to say that there would be no more TIME travel One way that they could use this is to incorporate a 'many worlds' approach to the 1977 cliffhanger. Is Juliet schrodingers cat? Did we see one of two possible realities that will result from the actions of the 1977 crew? Will we begin next season jumping between a reality where the 815ers never crashed on the island (and Jacob is dead) and one we haven't been shown yet where the bomb went off? Is space time folding in on itself. Am I a mobius strip. You have horseshoes but do they have horse socks? Is anyone listening to me....
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Has anyone read every post on this TB?I try to just catch up from a certain point, but then after awhile I have to quit to do something else, like now. I'm going to go watch the Office.
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After rewatching the episode, I am convinced that Jacob caused Sayid's girl to die. Clearly. Just saying
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I'm not sure what that says about me, but, I have.
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was telling him that sometimes things just need 'a little push' after his father gave him 'a little push' in the O.R. Which is true, because in the pilot they established that operation was a changing point in Jack's life, where he learned to overcome his fears. In this finale we learned that he didn't do it on his own, his father got stern with him when he was freaking, *then* he bucked up and overcame his fear.
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the only reason to watch lost is so you can learn how to not write a story. its like a must see for every aspiring TV writer. My professor told me LOST is trying to hard because of its very weak macguffin. she also said a bunch of other stuff, i agree with all of it. and shes a writer. lol STARGATE still rules.
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...Diox, considering you write like a 12 year old with short choppy sentences that have the flow of mud.
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is what destroys the statue, right? Someone may have posted this already, but the TB's too long to find it...
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Did his head explode?
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Yyayyyyayyy! =) My favorite troll is back. And what's the logical fallacy he provides us today, Bob?! Well Billy, today he delights us with APPEAL TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY! Congratulations again Dio! You continue to provide us with irrational gems! YAYYY!
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May 14, 2009 8:45:58 PM CDT
I liked the name UnLocke. I forget who suggested it.
by i am the most horrible
Furthermore THIS is a red herring:
http://tinyurl.com/o5zn37
They are small. That was NOT a red herring he was slicing up. It may have been intended to represent one, but I doubt it. -
So it was a pretty awesome episode. Glad we finally got to see Jacob and I'm also glad it wasn't some weird twist like actually Locke or Christian or something. Like the best of Lost's finales, it had chases, shootouts, mass movement, death and a (semi)explosion. Definitely better than last year's finale which was a disappointment and also season 2's which I considered weak and anti-climactic. No true fan of Lost can say it was better than season 3's finale "Through the Looking Glass". People with selective memory will only remember the ending but that entire episode was a classic.
I really liked the flashbacks in this episode featuring Jacob, simple yet building a slow crescendo to the end of the episode. Loved the young Sawyer, very natural actor. I highly doubt we've seen the last of Jacob - or Juliet for that matter. I'm a huge fan of hers and I was very sad when I Thought she died, but if that bomb goes off then either everyone on the island dies or "time" gets fixed. Since she wasn't on the plane though she will probably still be on the island. So my guess for the direction of season 6 is its going to mostly resemble season 1. Even Lindelof/Cuse have said that. Most serial shows end full circle so I think we get everyone experiencing the plane crash again BUT with the knowledge of EVERYTHING that they've learned over the past 5 seasons. That means they can IMMEDIATELY go and contact the Others rather than waiting two seasons. It means they can IMMEDIATELY go to all of the Dharma stations that know about - including the Swan Station since they know about the door in the tree. It means Miles can IMMEDIATELY find another freiter to get back to the island. But what they CAN'T do, which they've made very clear, is prevent Boone, Shannon, Charlie, Ana Lucia, etc... from dying. Fate has a way of course-correcting itself as we have learned too well. Can't believe I have to wait 9 months for the last season. Come on 2010! -
fear the reaper
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Two immortal human beings with polar opposite philosophies, stuck on an island all while caught up in an epic cosmic war. And one of them really wants to kill the other, but isn't allowed. Great stuff.
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F*ck, that was cool.
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LOL. Good thought
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(which will take a couple weeks no doubt)
TOLD YOU THEY WEREN'T DHARMA!!
About 5mins in I expected Jacob to turn out to be Locke's dad - but it turned out much better...
So all those manifestations - Christian, Alex, Charlie, etc... they couldn't have been NOTLocke - since he didn't seem to know about the Alex one... hmm... So...
The War is going to be between Jacob's people (NOTDharma and their Other brethren) and... THE ISLAND??
Whose side is The Wid on?
or is that nuclear fade to white REALLY going to be a reset switch?? Surely not - although it will make for a great opening scene next year since NO MATTER WHAT they show, everyone will be scratching their heads wondering if it's a new-improved timeline or not...
I bet they start on a plane -
I agree. Jacob definitely caused that death - which changed Sayid.
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If anything Jacob saved Sayid's life. If you watch it closely, she/they were going to get hit whether or not he intervened. That vehicle was moving fast!
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your professor used the word "macguffin" ?? next time u inflate your "professor" , pretend shes a bit smarter, or stuff something in her mouth so she dont talk much. but u prob like your women like that anyways.
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Couldn't they cut his hair?
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in a way he always resented that locke heard jacob or whoever at all...remember after locke heard the "help me" and all the flying stuff in the cabin....thats when ben, furious, shot locke and asked him what jacob said, because he didnt hear anything
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Stargate blows hard.
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A smoking pile of shit known as Stargate.
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...but I feel like if Jacob would have just at some point met with Ben, then Ben never would have built up such a crazy jealousy towards Locke, which never would have led to him stabbing Jacob. So it seems to me like Jacob always wanted the events to unfold the way they did, with him being stabbed by ben. It seems like Ben is being set up to be the ultimate hero for season 6. Like he's going to be so racked with guilt that he will do anything to make things right.
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...seems pretty simple. I'm guessing that Jacob can only be killed by someone he appoints as the leader of the island. With Locke actually dead, Ben would still be the island's true leader and viola. It bears similarites to how Voldemort was defeated in Harry Potter.
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I'm listening, sir, and I totally dig where you're going with that. Uncontrollably flipping back and forth between two different possible realities...because they're effectively both happening. And now they each have to duke it out for control of this particular causality and timestream.
And at the same time, I'm also digging Tocksick's idea about them re-crashing but some (those touched by Jacob, mayhap?) having the knowledge of what's already happened/not happened. Did happen. Err, didn't. I mean did. Did not not happen, but did...n't...*HEAD A'SPLOSION!*
PS: I vote for the name UnLocke; has so many overlying meanings... -
...images thing. Ben now being the hero and locke being mr bad pants.
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A school bus full of Stargate fans driving off a cliff.
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Jacob saves himself by giving Hurley the guitar, which will somehow end up being the guitar that Charlie gets back, which helps him quit drugs and take care of Claire and save 815, which allows Aaron to be born and kept alive even though the Not Jacob guys keeps trying to kill them (which Desmond can see and thus helps prevent his attacks of fate), Aaron grows up, marries Jin and Sun's daughter and the baby is actually the rebirth (new generation) of Jacob. The series ends with this kid and some veil replacement or some type of combo being the new "chessmasters" of the island.
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jacob could of shown ben a little attention in the foot, but no. "What ABOUT you." he was asking for it.
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true, true....what u said mirrors alot of what several people have said about planning to be killed and possibly going into lockes body
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May 14, 2009 9:36:47 PM CDT
The season three finale was the way they should have ended the s
by gqtaste
ended the whole show. I was very very dissapointed w/ how things came out by the writers. Lazy bullshit and of course now we'll have a f'ing love triangle once again. And to think these are the same folk who gave the spanano's shit for their ending. All these dickheads do is bring in new questions very f'ing year and are the biggest dickteases you'll ever come across.
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I think Jack and most of the Losties had played their roles too.I think its the Losties on the mainland who going to put things back the way it needs to be.Whatever that may be.Yup doesn't make sense but I think Jack and company has pretty much served their purpose!
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..lockes body or anyone elses for that matter. I really feel like this is going to set Ben up for taking his place as the ultimate good on the island.
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Is this for real, or a marketing gimmick? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN1IWOaPYYU
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So all of Esau/MAC/Man in Black's plotting was actually all being plotted by Jacob himself, to lead to these events. Hmm...interesting.
And what if, like some have suggested, Jacob's Touch has siphoned off parts of himself, closing them off into the various Losties. This could ultimately lead to recombining them into a suitable host--again, as I believe someone's already postulated, the handy-dandy True Locke body that Ilana brought right to The Foot.
What if this was all Jacob's plan...to be reborn? To become the ultimate manifestation of power + potential, an immortal soul of a god-being in the body of mortal man, his truest follower and believer. He has become his own avatar.
I have absolutely no basis for this and am not really sure where I'm going with it. I shall stop. :) -
What if he was goading Ben? What if he actually didn't give a shit about someone who been making everything about themselves?What If, Jacob wasn't this all-seeing "entity" like we think?How awesome would it been to witness a perceive powerful, but flaw character!
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...but like most of the really good theories It almost seems a little too crazy don't you think. I'm with others who feel like Jacob's role is over. I think the loophole being found knocked Jacob completely out of the equation, but, like the ultimate chess player, he's put the pieces in place that will hopefully checkmate Esau.
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It turns out those people were right... in a roundabout way. I don't think anyone ever suspected that Locke would be possessed by an evil deity. But back in S1, it sure seemed like they were setting up a Jack vs Locke, a good vs evil plotline. I'm amazed that the theories we thought up 4-5 years ago are suddenly, it seems, coming true
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Almost everything we have seen in the series so far was a huge con on the part of "Esau" He was pulling an incredibly long con on everyone. He waited for Jacob to bring some new people, and he played everyone like a master. Sawyer would be proud. Awesome stuff, changes everything we've seen up to now.
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Jacob's response to Ben wasn't full of contempt. I don't think he was goading him. But I do think it's the perfect response from a higher power - someone who looks at the bigger picture. I think he was trying to instill wisdom in Ben, who should have been more humble instead of bitter.
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...Im not saying he's really esau, it's just short hand.
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indeed, Mr. Alpert. That UnLocke's a real sneaky sum-bitch. My plan was to take the 9 month break to re-watch the series to try and piece the bigger story together. I'm thinking you just hit the nail on the head of what I'll be looking for.
But at the same time...Jacob was out there, interacting with those people. DID he know what was going on? Was it actually what he wanted to happen? Was he actually the master instigator behind all this and the real con artist?
Or, shit, WAS Jacob actually the bad guy? Should we actually be rooting for UnLocke? Craziness, craziness, and so many things to consider and mull over. Lost, this is why I love you.
And by the way, I don't think I've ever gone out of my way to say it, but your screen name kicks ass. I don't think I've ever actually been jealous of another poster's name before. But you win, sir. -
Awesome.
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trashcan? rape?...wow. That is all kinds of inbred idget...
What is wrong with you kid? Did mommie not hug you enough? Child. small foul child. Look it is just sad to see...ah, well. The world needs fake, phony tough, amoral, dumb people too..I guess. And I respect you for living your life as an openly gay transgender. It takes courage.
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i think what jack did was the actual incident. beacause faraday
said everything they do in the past was predestined to happen.
sayid shoots young ben and he ends up becoming an other. and u cant take anything abc says as truth
they said they werent going to kill juliet but they did they also said the same thing about katherine heigl and tr knight on greys anatomy but i just saw the last five minutes and it dont look good let that be a lesson to u.
if abc says theyre not killing someone on one of their shows its
the opposite -
Its that time again. At the end of each finale its that time to RANK the SEASONS of Lost. Season 5 was pretty good as a whole, like every season though it did have a weak section which was in the middle shortly after the Oceanic 6 assimilated into the Dharma Initiative. There was no clear direction and no one seemed interested in their own personal goals. But overall, I would put this season only behind seasons 1 and 3. Official Ranking from best to worst: Seasons 1, 3, 5, 4 then 2. While season 2 had some excellent episodes (Man of Science, Man of Faith, The Other 48 Days), the percentage of good to bad wasn't quite as high as other seasons. I pick season 1 as the best for the simple reason that it started the obsession. It created the world slowly and got us to care about each of these characters one by one. Season 3 was almost as great, while it had a rough first patch of episodes (with exception to the premiere), it quickly went into high gear and kept building on previous episodes and mysteries until the incredible season finale. So what is everyone else's ranking???
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Does anyone else feel that way? I mean, *obviously* this isn't the same (nor could it ever be) the same LOST we fell in love with back in Season 1. But these scenes of Jacob- on the beach with Bocaj, in everyone's flashbacks, in the shadow of the statue living around a large fire pit, weaving his tapestry of destiny from the loom of fate- it just gives the show this extra large mythic feel. Its approaching epic levels. Which, based on all that has influenced this mighty confluence of pop culture, classic literature, science, religion and myth, is natural and only makes sense.
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I think season 5 was probably the most consistantly good season. Maybe like 1 filler episode? Best season finale episode as a whole anyway.
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... I'm not sure how religious people feel when they leave church or temple, but for me I felt just really strange after I watched that Finale. It was unexplainable really. Kind of like when you're around extreme beauty like a giant mountain range or something. Without sounding completely corny it makes you feel tiny. It was spiritual or something...and I LIKED IT!!!
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That could be why he had a beard (And looked like he had gained 30 pounds).
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May 14, 2009 10:23:58 PM CDT
call him what you've been calling him for years...
by sweet action hero
...smokie.
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EXACTLY. Its a hard to describe feeling. Its just... different, larger... it feels more important. Its great.
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so respectful for my first few posts. Brevity is not my strong suit. Really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. Here are a few of my last ones before I go... Season 4 seemed to end with the show having a quantum physics bend (Farraday, time travel...). Season 5 now seems to be providing us with reason to believe that its all been a religious allegory. Where can it naturally progress from here? In response to bholtz...watch the scene again. Jacob asks Sayid for directions... Sayid stops crossing the street causing his lady friend to step off the curb and continue walking without him (notice Jacob didn't address them both...just managed to catch Sayids attention). Upon realizing that Sayid is now BEHIND her, Sayid's special lady friend turns around long enough to say something innocuous enough to warrant a windshield tattoo and voila... a very well orchestrated hit. Pretty sure about this... There is definitely something going on with Ben's request of Locke back in season 3. Why did Locke need to kill his father? Do we really know who Locke's father is? (And why does his scar always remind me of the X-Man Cable...okay thats a real longshot) Oh and I'm beginning to rethink my whole view on the DHARMA initiative... Correctly if I'm wrong (too lazy to wiki it), but doing ones Dharma is completing the task assigned to you...following tow as it were. It used to imply the whole New Age/manifest destiny thing but now.... Now it seems like the entire Dharma intitiative was there to play a very specefic and very premeditated role... for good or evil. My guess is that Jacob is coming back as Locke. He will inhabit Locke as smokey is inhabiting Christian. Its important that we keep our minds open to all religions and ancient texts. I think one thing we can be sure of is that there is no "one" answer or source for the ideas contained in loss... these writers are not going to limit their scope to quantum physics, religion, nanotechnology or chaos magic. They're not drawing from one just one culture here.. this show was meticulously designed to be as universal as possible (despite the shows pretty brutal treatment of its minority characters). This show is all about the microcosom (Widdy/Benjy) and the macrcosom (Jacob, unlocke). Alpert has tested Locke with the same methods that the Panchen Lama uses to select the next Dhali Lama. Methinks it possible that Jacob wanted to be killed so that he could be reincarnated...either in Aaron or Lockes dead body. Another lostie. As always, there is more than meets the eye in this show. But the writer in me just won't accept Jacob as he was presented to us last night. There is a reason this finale didn't end with Luke getting a new hand and embracing Leah on the Falcon...why Sam didn't reassure Frodo before the final ascent up Mt Doom I just have to believe that the reason we weren't given even the tiniest inclination as to where season 6 would take us is because doing so would ruin a very elaborately designed hall of mirrors.Oh and my vote for coolest possibility that would be suicide for this show and any other? Jacob, Unlocke and Smokey are all one and the same. The holy trinity. The Trikaya. Cerebus. The reason Unlocke can't kill Jacob is because they are one and the same. Unlocke killing Jacob would create a paradox because he is killing an earlier version of himself. So this all God's big elaborate plan to end his life... a curtain call for irrational beliefs like Atlantis and Eden and religion and replacing it with the the postmodern, technology driven, spiritually bereft culture of today. What lies in the shadow of the ststue? Why Nietzche,of course!!!!
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I hope it ends with him giving up his life in a very dramatic way to save everyone else. That would be the perfect ending for his character- he performs something self-sacrificing to atone for all his sins and to prove he was a good guy all along with the Island's best interests at heart.
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...scene to feel like something and mean something, but for me It just looked like a way to easily explain where they've been for the past 6 or whatever episodes and to end their arc. You can't blame them though, with that many characters there's no way you can continue to juggle all of them onscreen every episode especially once we got to 1977 and were introduced to another town full of characters.
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You're crazy. Grief-stricken, heartbroken, angry at the world Sawyer is NOT going to be dragged into another middle school, overdramatic love triangle with Jack over Kate. He's going to say "fuck it" and will find a way to do some good to save everyone, possibly by giving his life up. He's got nothing to live for. And if you really think they're going to go the Love Triangle route... AGAIN... I'm saying you're wrong. I call it right now. No love triangle in 9 months. They're past it. We're past it. It aint happening.
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The patient, evil, large-scale manipulative fucker.
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Best seasons on this show by far. I'm still not sure where to rank 2, 4, and 5, though right now I think 2 may be hovering around the top spot for those three.
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I'm waiting for Nathan Fillon to show up and serve the big bad.
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Along with the writers strike. I almost gave up on Lost during Season 2 and the beginning of Season 3. Once they got their shit together, announced an end date, and shortened the length of each season, it bounded back with a vengeance. Season 5 has probably been the best in terms of sheer consistency. WHERE THE HELL WAS DESMOND THOUGH? So who was the major character death that whats-his-name over at EW spoiled in advance? Juliette or Locke? Arguably Locke, right? Dead is dead after all...
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Considering he is a LOST alum...
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I think that it will be set with the assumption that Jack's plan succeeded and the plane landed in LAX. HOWEVER, as we know, the timeline is linear, so Sun, Ben, et all, in the future, won't be affected by the bomb that kills everyone in the '70's. That's not to say that they won't land in LAX in the present either, but their alternative time-lines will still be up and running around, which will allow the Jacob/Locke/Esau storyline to play out, and presumably affect the story. There really is no "present" in the Lost time-line. This season was all about the past and interlocking time-lines; the final season will be about the future.
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Jacob is apparently the one manipulating humans/mortals to come to the island. It could be argued that Esau simply wants humans to stay away because he/it feels it would be best for their own sake. It could be said Jacob is tempting humanity with The Island. Their relationship is definitely yin-yang.When Damon and Lindoff said that Season 6 will go back to Season 1, I think what they're going for is returning the show to the themes of redemption, faith, destiny, free will, etc. that the first season explored through the characters. When The Hatch was opened, and Season 2 started, the series veered more towards the "science" side of things, and it seemed like there was going to be a "scientific explanation" for everything. And the series has run with that possibility from Season 2 to the end of Season 5. But I think that's pretty much over now with this season. The Incident (both the episode and the actual event) is the conclusion to this mystery.So what is The Island? Well, I think it's very easy and cliche to say Eden. So maybe we can say it's the "heart" of humanity -- it's the source of what makes/made humans what they are: "human" and "spiritual" and apart from the rest of the animals on this planet. It's also where everything will one day end for humanity, where judgment, fate/destiny converge, and forgiveness may (or may not) be given. It's where things begin and end in a cosmic cycle. Jacob wants humanity, through certain people he has chosen, to start this process. But Esau feels humans are not anywhere near ready for this, and must evolve further on their own, without The Island.Does this sound heavy-handed emotionally? Yeah, but I argue this is the dramatic gravity that Damon and Lindoff are going for here: an a-religious, spiritual, humanist angle.
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...the other day and I never knew that the "wrong" private ryan that they first came across was played by Nathan Fillion. Of course then the worst part was watching Faraday completely fold under pressure while the Hebrew hammer gets slowly stabbed to death. God I hate that scene.
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Yeah, that's a pretty terrible moment, Dr Oblivion. And the Nazi just lets Faraday live with his guilt and cowardice too.
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Ben only killed the host body of Jacob. While this changes things, it merely delays the overall cosmic scheme of things. When we first see the two of them on the beach, Esau is in his then-current host. Towards the end of the finale, we learn that Esau manipulated things in order to take over the presence/image of John Locke so that he/it could convince Ben to destroy the current host of Jacob.One question for next season is: Where is Jacob and through whom will he show up next? But here's another factor: time is very likely irrelevant to entities like Jacob and Esau. Basically, Jacob is both "dead" and "alive" simultaneously in parallel.So here's my speculation: Jacob manipulated events to get Jack Sheppard to the island. Jack died in the plane crash. Yes, he is dead. Jack is Jacob's host. All of the flashbacks we've seen to Jack's life prior to coming to the island are of the real Jack Sheppard. Jacob is of course burdened by the angst of Jack, because Esau has made it so Jacob is unaware that he is NOT Jack Sheppard. Esau has contained Jacob in the image of Jack. The game-changer next season is that Jack/Jacob learns next season he is not Jack Sheppard -- he is Jacob and has been since the crash of 815.
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I think, like Sawyer said... what's done is done. There was always an explosion as the Swan, Marvin Candle always loses his arm, etc. Nothing changed, but when Jack detonated the nuke, the Losties will jump back to 2007 to fight Doppelganger Locke.
At least, I'm partially basing this on Jacob referring to Jack and Co. when he said "they're coming". He also could have meant Ilana and her crew. Still, the writers have rather consistently shown that events in the past cannot be changed, i.e. Ben was shot and nursed back to health. Anyhow, I have a feeling Jack won't end up at LAX. -
When Jack first told us the "count to five" story way back in the pilot, he made it seem like it was this badass moment of meditative cool that he summoned within himself to prevent himself from panicking. NOW we find out that was a lie and that Jack was being reprimanded/mentored by his father in that moment. So, from the very beginning I guess this means he was trying to impress Kate...Just thought I'd bring it up, as I didn't read anyone else discussing it.
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That's why nobody else could be allowed to raise him.
Say, was there really ever a magic box on the Island? -
Something about the way Bernard said, "You sure you dont want some tea?" to Juliet and the way he looked at her after he said it (and the way the music sounded after) seemed creepy to me... And Bernard is probably the least suspicious character in the entire series but something seemed off about that exchange...Again, this goddamn show has me analyzing random quotes like, "DO YOU WANT SOME TEA?" like it has some big fuckin meaning... Fuck you, LOST!!!
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Thus, Esau would use this revelation to argue to Jacob that humanity is not ready yet for The Island -- because Jacob himself experienced what it was like to be human as Jack Sheppard.
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...soon you'll be rocking in your chair in the mental institute like Howard Hughes....DO YOU WANT SOME TEA....do YOUU want SOME tea...doyouwantsometea...DOJDojoodSmnTEAAAA!!!
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Your theory is interesting with respect to the fact that they planned to kill Jack off in the pilot originally.
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It's a crossover! When Jacob said someone was coming, he meant Lucifer! It all makes sense now!
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May 14, 2009 11:18:49 PM CDT
Yeah DarthCorleone, the 'Count to Five' story kinda loses its ed
by mrhazard
Jack told Kate, "Yeah, my daddy told me to count to five and everything would be better and after that a nice man gave me a candy bar!"
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He is in Las Vegas. He found some old poker chips in a dump and had his leg amputated. Saw it on CSI tonight. I hope that clears everything up. Libby was there too. She bought a diner outside of Vegas, and someone killed her in her shitty house. Saw it on TV. Must be true.
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....He would be able to keep her there with conversation and of course delicious tea and maybe she would spill that tea onto her lovely breasts, ruining the red shirt and forcing her to change it, which would keep her from having her pilot picked up and avoid being killed off. But honestly, maybe he did somehow know that she was going to die and he was trying to save her with a simple choice, which in the end she declined.
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... when almost every television show would END their season in may/june and BEGIN their season in sept/oct??? Again, fuck you, LOST...
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May 14, 2009 11:28:38 PM CDT
In conclusion... Locke is dead... and maybe Jack, too.
by prof. pop-cult
Ben Linus did kill Locke. Dead is dead. Esau manipulated things so that he/it could assume the image of Locke and, thus, be able to convince Ben to kill/destroy the current host image of Jacob.In turn, my theory is that Jacob manipulated events in the past so he would have a host worthy of taking on Esau-Locke. (Remember, I'm saying time is irrelevant to these entities -- so what came before and after is essentially one and the same to them.) His host is Jack. Jack Sheppard died in the crash (his body has yet to be found). Jacob assumed his image -- but something else happened: Esau messed around with Jacob-Jack so that Jacob-Jack thinks he/it is the real Jack Sheppard. (Among the things Esau did to fuck with Jacob-Jack is assuming the image of Jack's dead father, Christian.)So, Jack Sheppard has been dead since the very first scene in the pilot (the close-up on Jack's eyes). The real Jack Sheppard is in the flashbacks. And, from a behind-the-scenes of the production standpoint, here's a possible connection: the character of Jack Sheppard was originally conceived as a one-shot character, who would be played a "big name" actor (Michael Keaton was supposedly considered) and appears to be set up to be the show's lead character -- but who suddenly is killed off by the end of the pilot/first episode. Maybe Damon and Lindoff are still playing off on this idea, but with a different angle.
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...and bury myself in the snow and hibernate until next year.
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Kristen of E! SpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoilerSpoiler
Can you tell me if Elizabeth Mitchell will appear on Lost in season six? She was my favorite actress on the show, and I think after last night, I may have died a little on the inside. Thank you!
Sources confirm that Elizabeth Mitchell will appear on Lost next year. But does that mean Juliet's alive and a going concern on the show? Well, we're meant to debate all summer who lived and died in the Lost finale, but you will note that she fell hundreds of feet into the waiting arms of a hydrogen bomb. You'll have to do your own calculations about her realistic prospects for survival—there are many variables to include in your equation!—but we've been asked nicely not to show you our answers. Good luck. http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b123950_this_just_in_greys_anatomy_finale_may.html
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...who was it that answered that question?
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Nice Jack theorizing, it would make sense in a LOST sort of way.
Speaking of the writers' original plans, I keep thinking there was something more to that Gary Troup novel "Bad Twin"...like maybe we'll be seeing Locke vs. UnLocke in a cage match next season? POOM -
Jacob hands Jack Sheppard (the REAL Jack) an Apollo candy bar. The god Apollo is associated with The Light (the sun).To know Jacob is to know oneself. To walk with Jacob is to be saved. Kate, Sawyer, and many of the other 815ers have walked with Jacob already (through Jack).Locke walked his own path, and was destroyed by Esau, so that Esau could assume his image in order to destroy Jacob's host (the blonde guy). But Jacob is already back (time is irrelevant) in the image of Jack. Esau of course knows this and has been fucking with Jacob-Jack which keeps it/him trapped in the image (and memories) of Jack Sheppard.
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May 14, 2009 11:51:07 PM CDT
Oh, forgot also: Apollo is associated with medicine...
by prof. pop-cult
Specifically, the symbols of Apollo are associated with physicians in the modern day.
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Bang! And stay down.
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That was E!'s Kristen, the link is right after the question & answer. in your opinion is that a spoiler?
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for the GREATER GOOD! thats what jacob meant when he said "they're coming". for the FIRST time, in the islands history, a group has not USED the island for PERSONAL gain. all the other factions that have come to the have used it for selfish reasons. jack and the crew SACRIFICED all they had built up, on the island, till then for the betterment of EVERYONE ELSE. jack sacrificed his relationship with kate-- sawyer with juliet and vice versa. hurley not getting back with his dad-- miles not knowing his dad-- jinn going back to his wife leaving him-- all for the BETTERMENT of other people. now, for the first time, PROGRESS is being made. all these "bad" people united for the greater good proved jacob RIGHT.
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...For me not really, cause you don't know in what capacity she'll be used.
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There could be three...or more.
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As much as I've always liked John Locke, I'd have to suggest you bet on NonLocke. John would be at a distinct disadvantage, what with being dead and all.Real slow for anyone that missed it. The Island restored Lockes ability to walk after the crash and again after his fall with Boone, then helped him survive being shot. The Island did not bring Locke back to life. Ben Linus killed Locke and the entity posing as Locke from the point where his body was returned to the island was never Locke, always the impersonator. Locke was never resurrected, his dead body was in the box the whole time. Now you may argue over whether Jacob revived Locke after his six story fall or merely woke him, but Locke is currently dead and as Ben Linus stated, the Island never returns people from death; "dead is dead". so no more talk about Locke facing his evil twin or anything else Locke is going to do next season. Locke is dead and isn't going to do anything but rot.
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Someone way up above mentioned that maybe the ending was another time jump, since time jumps were always accompanied by the white flash. And as the only way to get the 1977 Losties back to 2007, a time jump would be desirable.However, time jumps are always prededed by an ominous noise, a shaking vibratory camera effect and then a slow fade to white. And it wasn't just the "incident" because every other incident involving the pocket of electromagnetism has been described as a "purple sky". Every movement of the island has been cued with a loud screech, then a sustained white light.And it would seem that every hydrogen bomb igniter explosion has been a bright white light and the Lost "poom". Or course, there was only the one, but that's what it was.The question, then, is why would New Otherton, let alone the whole island, stil be there? But it was only the Jughead bomb's ignigion device or fuse, and the energy released by the explosion was distorted downwards by the electro-magnetic energy of the incident. So the island survived and, personally, I certainly hope the surviving Losties were bounced to 2007. Among other things, this would explain why the increasingly fallible Richard Alpert thought he saw them die, if he saw the bomb explode, the white flash, and they were gone after the flash cleared.
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To everyone who thinks some anti-Locke or Seesaw or smokey or man-in-black possessed John Locke: NO. Possession is when a spirit takes up residence in a body. think Regan in the Exorcist or Melinda's husband on this year's Ghost Whisperers.Whatever or whoever has been posing as John Locke did NOT possess Locke;'s body. Locke's body was in the shipping crate the whole time, and is dead. Possessing a dead body would serve no purpose, what with the corpse being inanimate and all. So, No possession, okay? So cut that crap out. And NO Zombie-Locke, so don't start.
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Man what a great season finale, great stuff!
I was wondering, Jacob's home/lair looked a lot like Leonardo's Last Supper painting to me, what do you folks think? -
I'm still confused as to what exactly the Incident refers to...is it the Jughead bomb going off or is it the drilling too deep releasing the electromagnetic energy?...if it's the bomb then it makes no sense because it would have completely destroyed the Swan station and its surroundings so how could Chang make those Orientation films referencing the Incident?...can anyone enlighten me on what exactly the Incident referenced in the Dharma films is exactly
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May 15, 2009 1:54:56 AM CDT
People Jacob touched travel forward to 07. Juliet/Miles don't
by tallboy66
Juliet gets blown up by the nuke (but the nuke doesn't destroy the island cause of...whatever. Magnets, I dunno.), Miles stays in the 70s and gets to live out his life with the father he never knew he had, and the rest of the Losties who Jacob had contact with travel forward to 07 right when Jacob said, "They're coming".
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how does jacob travel off of the island? it is possible that he is turning the wheel and arriving at different points in the losties lives. this could be at random or he is so tied to the island that he can control where he appears. but if he's using the wheel then how the fuck is he getting back? crashing there in plane, ship, or whatever the hell else. seems like that would take a fucking while. I think the flashbacks and flashforwards are a much bigger piece of the puzzle than just showing emotional parallels in the characters lives. i think it might be possible that jacob can time travel into the characters minds, similar to desmonds time travel in "flashes before your eyes" and the "constant" only jacob can control it.
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And Locke is, well, who the hell knows! And Alpert is kind of a weenie.
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I'd buy it for a sawbuck and change.
Thought some same such in re the boom and the magnetic.
Did you notice..and this may just be me...but when Jacob firsty uttered his lasty lines..it sounded like he said:
"The Comic"...hmmph. -
Jacob assumed Jack's image but convinced himself that he was Jack and made him have Jack's memories, too? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
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Cause DoppleLocke already knew that. (Remember he told Ben, "We have to take care of them") He also seemed surprised when he heard Jacob's warning. So I guess he did mean Jack, Sawyer, Kate, etc. Or maybe something else...
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Good questions and ones I don't think we have the answers to yet. When Chang says 'there was ..an incident' his face has this look like it was very complicated so the incident could refer to everything we saw last night. Also, Faraday's theory was that the bomb going off would negate the energy in that pocket or something, that they'd cancel each other out and there wouldn't be a nuclear blast according to my understanding. So I think basically we just don't know yet. If whatever happened, happened, then the h-bomb caused the incident and everything happened like it always did. Or, if Jack truly changed things then we will have to find out what happened next. I think whatever happened, happened holds true in this case and the incident is what we saw last night, because of the way Chang says 'an incident' and because his hand got messed up and in the film that is evident.
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locke not being able to kill his dad, don't know if that means shit. but remember he had to get sawyer to do it. maybe this has some significance to the loophole?
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May 15, 2009 2:44:30 AM CDT
My god this talkback is long, may as well add something...
by alucardvsdracula
(insert random film title here)WILL OWN YOUR ASS! There. Now I've said it.
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but if the Jughead bomb negates the electromagnetic energy then why would there be any need to continue building the Swan station along with the computer where Desmond inputs the numbers for all those years?
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Jacob left it. He said it wasn't his? Who's is it?
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I don't think anything important is in the guitar case...the case was just needed as a proxy for Charlie when Hurley boarded the Ajira flight
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May 15, 2009 2:56:28 AM CDT
And stop the 'Sopranos' black screen comparison..pretty please.
by macfaux
I am sure it has happened before ...but the first and primary example that comes to me mind of a reversed color curtain card is the shark jumping fridge nuking instance of the Season 4 finale of West Wing. Prior, all epi ended white on black...in that one it was black on white..just like LOST 5.17
You know the one...the one where Aaron Sorkin went Market-Garden and a mushroom too far and channeled his inner telepathic 24 to feature the kidnapping of the President's daughter Zoey but was too much of a pussy to actually make the perps Middle Eastern.... No? ok. Ah...you never know who is lurkin when David Gergen is jerkin the gherkin... yeahWell, I tell you true, Dirk Bogarde, from the grave, did and does not approve...
And to mention..should you have the time and means to read Cornelius Ryan's excellent book 'A Bridge too Far'...you will be shocked and awed by the fact that just about every character name you heard in Cameron's 'Aliens' is of some note in that Sept 1944 time and place. "SMOKE PURPLE!....START! THE! PURPLE!"
How bout that?
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...that the Losties in 77' have been sent back to 2007. That's what Jacob meant when he said "they're coming". I think Jacob somehow knew of Esau/Man in Black's plan to kill him, and he accepted his death calmly because he has a plan of his own: to bring the ones from 77' back to the present. Season 6 will probably deal with all of the 815-ers squaring off against whatever the higher powers on the island are.
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First, Evil Locke was genuinely interested in knowing what Ben had to say about Alex in Smokie's temple, as if he didn't know what had taken place. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
Second, Jacob and Anti-Jacob. We know that they can't kill each other. We also know that according to the 'rules' Ben Linus and Charles Widmore can't kill each other. Connection? Were Jacob and Anti-Jacob leaders before Widmore and Ben and are therefore subject to the same 'rules'? -
Look, it's just a theory I'm throwing out right now. Basically, I'm considering that Jacob-Jack doesn't know he/it is really Jacob right now. Because Esau has mindfucked him -- mainly by walking around in the image of Christian (Jack's dad).Based on the finale episode, we can surmise that Esau-Locke didn't know it/he wasn't really Locke at first. After all, by taking on the image of Locke, it would also logically take on the memories, prior life, and life experiences of its host.Now if (and I emphasize "if") Jacob took on the image of Jack from the very start, then it looks like it would be Esau who has been thwarting Jacob-Jack from realizing what it/he really is. I think one effective way for Esau to make Jacob-Jack think it/he really is Jack is to make it/he not forgot about Jack's father.Now, I admit a lot of this is really heady and way out there. But Damon and Lindoff have already laid the foundation for all this possible craziness, especially in the fifth season finale.
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i'm wondering how much old ellie knew about evil locke. she said that locke would be a proxy for jack's dad. did she switch sides at some point-ditching jacob and siding with "esau"
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I think it might be Charlie's. Didn't he have a guitar?
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Another good question. I really have no idea thinking about it, it's going to have to be explained I think, and if not that will suck. I would say maybe the h-bomb stopped the energy from being released and killing everyone at that time, but then it was still there and had to be contained with the station. As in they had always done that so that the incident wasn't worse than what we saw. Or, maybe they really did change things with that bomb and we will see in friggin' 2010 (way too long to wait).
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May 15, 2009 3:09:40 AM CDT
The Island could be like the Monolith in the movie 2001...
by prof. pop-cult
It could be the element on our planet that helped to evolve early homo sapiens into the human beings we are today. I don't know right off how the original continents were laid out, but maybe Damon and Lindoff are implying that the island was originally at the center of what was Pangea, before it broke off into the various continents we have today. The Island is the center and origin of everything.
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Ilana and her crew--are they original others from way back or what? Did the others ever really follow Jacob or the other dude faking to be Jacob?Either way she's for Jacob and they seem to be halfway decent to people--pretty nonviolent. What I really want to know is when they had Miles in the van before he got on the boat, the big guy said that if Miles went with them, he'd find out why he is the way he is. What about Miles' experience on the island makes him able to talk to dead people? And on an unrelated topic, was that opening scene's music some of the creepiest, coolest music ever on this show or what?
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Jacob left it for Hurley to give back to Charlie. That's my guess, and, if true, it's ominous and suggests we might see Charlie again. (So reporters should start asking Dominic Monahan if he'll show up next season.)
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I don't think the energy was contained before the Incident because during the season finale Dr Chang tries to warn Radinsky to stop drilling otherwise there would be dire consequences...Radinsky just ignores him and tells everyone to keep digging...I still don't get what Radinsky was trying to do by building the Swan station...harness the electromagnetic energy for time travel?...I thought that was being done at the Orchid station?...another thing, is it possible for Miles to stay in the 1970's to bond with his father even though there is another version of himself as a baby living off island with his Mom?
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Island. Statue. "Only the ocean existed at first. Then Ra (the sun) came out of an egg that appeared on the surface of the water."..Olympus...Eden..Center of the universe..or at least metaphorically the center of an 'other' island floating in the 'verse..Brilliant. That is good stuff there.
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one more thing...how come after the Incident happens Dr Chang keeps changing his name in all those Dharma videos (Marvin Candle, Edgar Halliwax etc)?...what's the point in doing that, who is he trying to fool?
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For some reason, I kinda get the feeling that some of the 'new others' are double agents for Widmore. We know that Jacob went to Ilana, but what about the rest of her crew? Where did they come from? We know that Widmore is a powerful man with spies and agents everywhere. Its conceivable that he has planted spies within the 'new others.'
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or does the black shirt, white shirt thing in the beginning remind you a little of spy v. spy? Maybe the whole point of their relationship is to kill each other in more and more elaborate ways. Just me? Okay then.
Kidding aside, do y'all think that if Jacob brought the black rock to the island, than he also brought the Dharma people there too, in a round about way? That he gave them the way to find the island?
Plus do you think we might finally find out what Widmore found in that black rock journal now that we know Jacob brought it there? -
I think the reason EVILocke wanted to know what Alex said to Ben because he was trying to manipulate him into following his purposes, as in killing Jacob, just like he manipulated Ben into being angry about never meeting Jacob, which culminated into his hissy fit about being unimportant and killing Jacob. He might have been re-confirming in Ben's mind that he HAS to do what Locke tells him to. Just my take on the thing.
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..the more and more I feel like my "Captain Jacob" joke might come into fruition. It would explain why he wasn't afraid of dying, because he put a part of himself in each of the Lostaways he touched.
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...that Inana said Lapedis (sp?) would make a good candidate? That's why they let him live and took him to Jacob. Could Jacob take up residence in Frank's body next?
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Season Five - sad,near hopeless ending?
Season Six - Jedi - Happy ending, good guys win, redemption for the bad guy
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I haven't even watched this yet (we get it Sunday night on Sky1 in the UK) but---
FUCKING SHAPESHIFTERS?!?!?
When did LOST turn into the fucking FOREST OF DOOM? Are Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone suddenly writing this?
The forces of light and darkness having a game? JEEEEEEEZUS...
Y'know, I'm a mad rabid fan of LOST, I really am. I stayed with it through those fucking interminable episodes back at the beginning of season 3, where it was just ENDLESS CAGE TALKS AT THE OTHERS' CAMP, and I stayed with it when Jack stopped being a Leader and became a weepy bitch, I even stayed with it when it became abundantly clear that no-one in their right mind would STILL be trying to win Kate over (because she's a lying manipulative bitch, albeit a very fuckable one). LOST has had many hiccups. It has ALWAYS got round them.
But... fucking SHAPESHIFTERS?
My American cousins, PLEEEEEASE tell me this show hasn't jumped the (Dharma) shark. I needyour reassurances! Is this dumb shit or yet more genius?!? -
Fear not, my British brother. This isn't "dumb shit." It's pure genius. Nobody shape shifts à la the T-1000... everyone is just speculating that our dear Locke has become this Esau character. We have no concrete proof... yet. All we know is that there are two bodies of John Locke... one alive... and the other... quite dead, it seems.
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May 15, 2009 5:55:17 AM CDT
Next season: Miles looks for his dad -- and finds him?
by prof. pop-cult
Assuming that the 1977 Losties are thrown back forward in time to 2007, I imagine the first thing Miles will do is go to the pit and frantically look for his father's remains. However, the twist could be he won't find (or hear) Dr. Chang's body. So then the episode (or his story arc throughout the final season) could be him searching for his father. Such an episode could delve into the circumstances that led up to The Purge and what happened after.I could easily imagine Jack and Miles bonding over this. Jack might finally 'fess up to Miles that he saw his father (Christian) when they first crashed on the island. Jack would console Miles that he needs to accept the likelihood his father, Dr. Chang, is dead. But, instead, maybe Damon and Lindoff are considering pulling a blatantly happy ending: Dr. Chang is discovered to still be alive, and he has a perfectly good excuse as to why he's been missing for so long and never got back to the mainland. What's more, he's overjoyed that Miles found him and has been waiting/hoping that his son would find him someday. Imagine this being played out in a very emotional, Field of Dreams way, with Jack looking on, stunned, happy for Miles, but also a bit envious.So I could see an elderly Dr. Chang joining the Losties for the last few episodes of the series. He could also factor in helping the characters out (due to being the last surviving member of DHARMA) in the last big event which will wrap up the entire series. Overall, I sense Damon and Lindoff want to do a coda to the whole DHARMA arc and that they want to use the actor who plays Dr. Chang for one last significant role.
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Widmore might order his goons to kidnap Aaron and bring him to the island. So this would help set up the vision Desmond originally had of Claire and Aaron leaving the island together boarding a helicopter.
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"The forces of light and darkness having a game?" Well yeah, that was foreshadowed all the way back in...THE PILOT!!! Let's say it is Eden. Let's say this show does take on a Biblical bend, would that really be a stretch? It's all always been there lurking beneath the surface. Id the man in black Esau and Jacob the actual Jacob of ladder fame? Perhaps, but not necessarily. The main point is this: Even if you don't believe in the Torah or The Old Testament or the Koran, all of which feature Eden, the fact remains that it is a stroy that has outlived all other stories. It is one of the oldest stories for a reason...It's a good damn story. I don;t understand everybody balking. There are actually people who are saying things like, "i can't believe this is going the simple good vs. evil route." This show did not change direction Thursday night, it arrived at the destination it was always leading us to. The good man in white sitting on the beach squaring off with his evil adversary man in black. What's the problem? Is it too simplistic? There eventually had to rise a side that was good and a side tat was evil. It's the truest form of plotting and storytelling. Yes, lost has always been magical it it's ambiguosness, but we have always demanded answers, to get them, lines must be drawn in the sand and one side must emerge as the good guys. It always seemed kind of clear that the Others would ultimately be the good guys, but this twist has made it so the characters we have been so invested with all along can stand on the good side even though they have fought with the Others all throughout. It's a good twist and I like it. The bottom line is everything that happened in the finale was true to Lost and the directions that it can appear to go from here don't betray the first five seasons at all. They would complete them and justify them. Thought I'd weigh in.
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Easy explanation. When Smokie-Locke seemed surprised by Ben talking about meeting his dead daughter, this was simply Smokie playing the part of Locke. Even dead Alex was smokie in the temple. Fake Locke was just going along with his own ruse. As far as Ben knows, Locke would not have known about dead Alex. If Locke was in the know, so to speak, Ben would have known something was up and that this wasn't simply Locke back from the dead. He already was perplexed by how Locke could be back "You can't can back from that."
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LOSTIES for the win!
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And we are all their pawns.
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Is that actually possible? Its a fascinating theory, and it would help explain why three characters have been named Charlie/Charles on a show where names have some sort of implied meaning often times. However, I'm trying to figure it out in my head if that one seems possible, and I don't thnk it is. Especialyl since time travel is now apparently over for the show, I'm not sure how Des and Penny could go back in time, and leave young Charles on the island to become Widmore. However, this could end up making Desmond and Penny into Adam and Eve perhaps? I don't know...I don't buy your theory,but I dig it intensely. Itd be a fun twist, and in some ways it makes sense. In others, not so sure.
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Firstly, I am never typing in your TB handle again. That shit is LONG!
Secondly: LOST. I'm not really referring to the whole "good vs evil" thing per se - all good drama is based on conflict of a sort, and good vs evil is very commonly used - but the literalism of it. Good vs Evil, sat on a beach, actually talking about all this like it's a game? Sounds awfully flaky for such a great series as LOST. And though I'm kinda judging this as unseen (I'll see it Sunday night in the UK) it just sounds shonky. I mean, BEDAZZLED used that same conceit - the shot with Elizabeth Hurley (sexiest devil I've ever seen) vs the brother who looks like Terence Howard (benevolent God dude) playing chess on a table in the park. Very much a heavy-handed show of the theme for that movie, blatantly shoved onscreen to hamer home the concept to the dumbest members of the audience. "It's all a game! Creation! Life of Earth! All a big game, like that chess game between the Devil and God! DO YOU GET IT?"
I'd hate to think of LOST having to pander so obviously to the dumbest audience members in the same way as fucking BEDAZZLED, that's all. I loves me some BEDAZZLED, but high art and subtle it ain't. LOST should be waaaaaaaay above this kind of simplistic literalism. -
Someone had a good point about the mention of being a "candidate" to Lapidus. Perhaps these "candidates" are possible selections for what body Jacobs spirit will inhabit next, making them the next Jacob? Maybe all the people Jacob touched are possible candidates? That whole line was put in very cryptically and surrounded by so much action you almost forgot it happened, but I think that scene will have great significance starting next season.
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Basically, from what I'm rading you saying, you really just don't even deserve to be here. Shame on you for spoiling yourself and reading all these things beforehand. You have no context for hwat we are discussing. Its actually making me mad to have you taking up time saying you are disappointed in the finale when YOU HAVENT SEEN IT. You don't know how the scenes played out and who is who. You already ruined it for yourself, youre gonna be sitting there trying tos econd guess everything you see instead of going for the ride. Do yourself a favor and just dont come back here. Jesus.
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Cabin - Evil - Ash
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Juliet's (likely?) death was immensely sad, and definitely brought a couple of tears to my eyes, as she was one of my favourites.
That being said, I'm immensely shocked that no one's ripping into the fact that Jack's reason for wanting to POTENTIALLY KILL EVERYONE ON THE ISLAND was so that he could have never known Kate? REALLY? And the likes of Jin, who actually HAS A WIFE whom he thinks is somewhere on the island, is completely fine with going along with this plan? Fucking ridiculous.
Otherwise, a solid, solid finale. Here's to Jeff Fahey aka Frank Lapidus and Nestor Carbonell becoming regular cast members next season! ONWARDS. -
The first book of the Bible that was actually put in written form was the Book of Job. In the Book of Job, Satan, with full access to heaven and therefore God's presence, initiates a game with God. God takes the bait, and tells Satan that he can do whatever he wants with Job but must spare his life. God stood firm that Job would remain righteous and keep his faith. It was all a game. Again, Job was the first book of the Bible to be written down. So as old as good and evil is, so goes the game. Richard Alpert_Time Pimp is correct in stating that your opinion is formed out of ignorance as you haven't even seen it yet!!! Once you waych it, I think you'll change your mind, it's done really well. Judging by the fact that you don't get your dose of Lost until Sunday, I'm guessing that you are probably in England. If that is so, how in the fuck could you loves you some cheap American bullshit remake of a British classic like Bedazzled? Dude, I'm American and I;m embarrased by what my countrymen did to tat movie. Liz Hurley as the devil however? hamana hamana hamana...yummy
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of dead people and talked to Hurley: that just doesn't make any sense. What I mean is, why would Esau AND Jacob BOTH want Hurley back on the island?
I'm wondering about the scene where Alpert tests a young Locke with weird objects, asking "Which are yours?" I know, this is the same type of test they give the Dalai Lama. So, WHO was Locke supposed to be the incarnation of? Certainly not Jacob, since Jacob was on the island, in a body. Was he testing to see if Esau had been reborn? Someone else?
The "candidate" line is interesting, too. Maybe Jacob is reborn in a body before he needs it? So, in that case, Locke was looked at as a potential reincarnation of the still-alive Jacob.
Also, JMcLovin, I'm gonna play apologist, again. Kate was one of the reasons for Jack wanting to detonate the bomb. Sure, all he "told" Sawyer was that he was doing it to stop himself from meeting her, but I think that was just the most overt reason at the time, considering it was the other alpha male he was talking to. Secondly, I'm assuming Jin figured if the bomb detonated then he would find himself in Los Angeles with Sun, safe, since they'd never have been on the island. He SHOULD have known better. But, so should Faraday. Which leads me to wonder if Faraday ever really believed they could change things or if he just made up the whole "variable theory" to sell the others on doing something he knew had to be done. -
it was more of a test. The Accuser tells God that Job only loves him because God is so good to him. So, what would happen if "God" weren't so nice and let everything be taken away? He'd curse God! God wanted to vindicate Job's righteousness.
The real purpose of the book, theologically, is dealing with loss. It's the earliest version of the philosophical quandary of the Problem of Evil. How can a good God let this happen? If you've read it, you'll know a lot of it deals with questioning God and his motives. -
Re-watch it. Attentively.
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Jacob is one hundred percent one of the greatest and most effective red herrings in fiction. That finale changed the entire series. It wasn't Jacob doing all these crazy things and making dead people appear, we just thought it was. Incredible stuff. I also agree with GaiustheBrave, that its a story about loss, and the motivations of God or a god-like figure, "How can he allow this?" etc. I think that was evidenced in Jacobs constant, and seemingly genuine, concern and care for our Losties in the past, but his inability to do anything to help them or change things. Also, "What ABOUT you?" It wasn't a fuck you to Ben, it should have been humble. Ben, however, doesn't have that capacity, and does what he does.
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These are things I need to be addessed in order for Lost to fulfill itself, aside from the stuff in S5 and the finale. 1) Walt. If we never learn what Walt is and why he is "special" I will lose it. 2) Room 23, Carl, and the significance of "God loves you as he loved Jacob." 3) The Whispers 4) The Sickness.
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These are things I need to be addessed in order for Lost to fulfill itself, aside from the stuff in S5 and the finale. 1) Walt. If we never learn what Walt is and why he is "special" I will lose it. 2) Room 23, Carl, and the significance of "God loves you as he loved Jacob." 3) The Whispers 4) The Sickness.
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Wait, bernard and rose can't be adam and eve because both of the skeletons
were white. -
I'm not disagreeing... but how is Jacob the red herring? What are we supposed to believe/speculate upon and what are they trying to distract us from? For instance: Is Jacob evil and they're trying to fool us? Are the writers trying to make us think he's dead when he really isn't? Is Jacob not as important as we all think he is? Please elaborate. Thanks!!!
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You sure are grumpy today.
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I have read Job, many times. When I used the term "game" I was in part playing apologist for Lost. Spud used the term game in reference to the beach scene and inferred that it was sort of cheap storytelling or perhaps a cop out. I used the story of Job, and yes, I did grossly oversimplify it, as an example of how it is a classic storytelling device and one of the oldest for a reason. I never intended to infer that God considered Job's fate and loss as a fun game with the serpent but as i look back, I see it did come out that way. I have always thought that the Island was Eden and that it was a classic story of good vs. evil. I even wrote a long winded explanation of my theory on these boards between season four and five but I'll be damned if I'm going to go searching through 10,000 posts to find and and repaste it here, I don't understand why so many people feel so uncomfortable with the story turning that way. It seems natural to me that a show as monumental and epic as Lost has been would have to end up being a battle of ultimate good vs. ultimate evil. Nothing else ends right that I can come up with. I admit, however, i could never have written this show, so I was placing my trust in the writers anyway. Even if that's not the ultimate direction the show will head, it's good that it nodded towards it for this brief moment.
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I really like that new theme music for Jacob. It felt a bit somber, a bit creepy, a bit ancient. That better be on the Season 5 soundtrack. Which won't come out for another year. (Season 4 soundtrack finally came out 3 days ago)
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Don't pronounce judgment until you've watched. It's still well worth watching. If you still feel the same way afterward, then that's your prerogative.Personally, I'm not as high on this finale (and the latter part of this season) as some are, but I still like the show a great deal. And about a year from now, we can all judge it all in its entirety.
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and raise you more!But serious some of those questions I want answers as well!
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Has anyone here seen it? Mexican film about time travel. Came out a year ago maybe...saw it at the Philly Film Festival. Anyway, it has a very interesting approach to manipulating time in the sense that Lost does. Ultimately it kind of cheats at the end but its definitely worth checking out. I think Cronenberg is signed on to remake it...
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Not at all, this last episode proved that he orchestrated everything from Jump Street. Decades before the crash, he had all the 815'ers lives heading towards getting on that plane that none of them were really supposed to be on in the first place. Jacob is more an outward manifestation of Ben's ultimate failure. Ben, the master manipulator and utimate con man. Ben, who had righteousness in his heart and would throw all morality and goodness aside in name of protecting the Island; ultimately was conned into murdering the Island's saving grace. That's what impresses me the most; the writers have managed to turn televisions greatest villain into the most tragic figure in a show with an ensemble of tragedy. Anyway, as far as jacob being the red herring, I say no. I'm not sure we've eard the last of Jacob. I thin Jacob has set a chain of events in motion that will bring Walt back to the Island to finish one last game of backgammon with the man in black that is now inhabiting Locke. I can' call him Esau, I don;t think there's anything that has been introduced into the plot to even hint tat he is the biblical Esau other than the fact that he wanted to kill someone named Jacob. The show never said they were brothers, did it? Can;t remember.
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I like that Miles searching for his Dad thing. HEck if Rose & Bernard can hide out for 3 years so can Chang for 30 who has far more resourses.
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If "Lost" can be read like a moebius strip, then there may actually be more than one way to watch the eventual boxed set of DVDs (from season 1 to 6 or from 6 to 1). Between that, the extensive literary references, the deep exploration of fears in early seasons, its dissection of language barriers (through Jin), and the downright fascinating characters we've been presented, this show has had a good run. I would imagine that they plan to give us something that's a little different next season but, until next season starts, I'm going to operate as if the series is done. At the least, the heavily sci-fi time travel aspect of the show looks to have concluded.
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Nappy - great pickup on the Expose' parallels - and I'm sure you noticed but were too humble to mention how in Expose' the Good Guy (Billy Dee Williams in yet another Star Wars reference) WAS ACTUALLY THE BAD GUY ALL ALONG!
nice!
soooo... considering Locke fell for the longest (1954) Long Con in history, when he fell for the whole "you gotta die" routine, first mentioned by Richard (at Not-Locke's request) and further reinforced by "Christian" - do you suppose THAT was Billy Dee Williams too? Was THAT the reason he couldn't help Locke with the turning of the wheel, or even the getting back up off the ground - coz it's "against the Rules" or else I wouldn't need to be running this Long Loophole to begin with...?
Also, while I'm addressing just you and all, about the Jack nearly doesn't get his Chocolate flashback - I thought the point of that one was the line Jacob says to him about how he just has to "give the machine a little push" - I was expecting that to come into play with Jughead, but maybe it's going to be relevant next season, huh? -
That this show has always had a battle between good and evil in mind comes in the very first episode when Locke holds up teaches Walt how to play backgammon and reveals to us the philosophy of the game (as well as its origins in antiquity). They make it a point here to contrast the black pieces from the white. They do it again with the stones found on Adam and Eve. I really don't think are that many people complaining about this fact as these boards would have it appear. If you've been paying attention I think its always been accepted that the show would end in this way. However, Lost's genius, as well as its gift to the craft of the tv writing, has always been its ability to see both the good and bad in people. The ying and the yang. Up until now no one character has ever been truly presented as all good or all bad. The flashback method of storytelling is fun, but its also effective in that it has always elevated the perception or viewpoint of the character before they are forced to take action. Instead of painting characters in broad strokes of simply "sinister" or "benevolent", the characters on Lost have always been fairly ambiguous. On Lost good characters make bad decisions (and vice versa). On Lost, being a bad guy doesn't mean that your actions aren't necessarily warranted. In fact, Lost has always suggested to me that terms like "bad" and "good" are really only dependent upon who is using them. In short, Lost is an exercise in antinomianism... or a study in just how much people will abide by the arbitrary laws of religion and society when their personal life experience contradicts it.
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Seeing as how it never got explored after early Season 1, with the white/black game pieces, the white/black stones found with Adam and Eve, the white/black eyes Locke had in Claire's dream. Finally, its all coming back full circle.
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I think people are disapointed with the religeous aspects as the writers claimed there were scientific explanations for things. In days gone religion was used to explain the unexplainable (the sun for example) It's a cheap cop out. (yes BSG I'm looking at you)
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I've been poring over the boards and no one has paid particular attention to this. I thought I was the only one who thought this was extremely important. I actually think it may be the basis for the entire series, especially the direction its going to take. This point in the episode was the only thing I rewound to make sure it said "Apollo". Jack is at a moment of extreme doubt and Jacob hands him the Apollo bar, even though Jack chose it originally. Jack is now and has always been Jacob's agent, his Apollo. Any 6th grade education tells you that Apollo is the god of light, worshipped by Greeks and Romans. Look at the Wiki; god of medicine, healer, god of truth, SHEPHERD of flocks, but this is where your cerebellum will sizzle.
When Hera discovered that Leto was pregnant and that Zeus was the father, she banned Leto from giving birth on "terra firma", or the mainland, or any island. In her wanderings, Leto found the newly created floating island of Delos, which was neither mainland nor a real island, and she gave birth there. The island was surrounded by swans. Afterwards, Zeus secured Delos to the bottom of the ocean. This island later became sacred to Apollo, his birthplace. Then this:
Four days after his birth, Apollo killed the chthonic dragon Python, which lived in Delphi beside the Castalian Spring. This was the spring which emitted vapors that caused the oracle at Delphi to give her prophesies. Hera sent the serpent to hunt Leto to her death across the world. In order to protect his mother, Apollo begged Hephaestus for a bow and arrows. After receiving them, Apollo cornered Python in the sacred cave at Delphi. Apollo killed Python but had to be punished for it, since Python was a child of Gaia.
Hera then sent the giant Tityos to kill Leto. This time Apollo was aided by his sister Artemis(Claire?) in protecting their mother. During the battle Zeus finally relented his aid and hurled Tityos down to Tartarus. There he was pegged to the rock floor, covering an area of 9 acres (36,000 m2), where a pair of vultures feasted daily on his liver. Now:
Apollo also fell in love with Cassandra, daughter of Hecuba and Priam, and Troilus' half-sister. He promised Cassandra the gift of prophecy to seduce her, but she rejected him afterwards. Enraged, Apollo indeed gifted her with the ability to know the future, with a curse that she could only see the future tragedies and that no one would ever believe her.
I know it's a stretch, but the Apollo candy bar is definitely important, I think one of the most important things that happened in the episode. The entire series started with Jack, he has grown from the man of science to the man of faith, and I really think that he will become/replace Jacob(as Apollo/Light). If this is true, who is his MIB, Locke? Sawyer? Matt Fox has said that he is the only actor on the show that has read the ending. Why is this do you think?
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May 15, 2009 10:23:23 AM CDT
Did TPTB drop in a gianourmous clue? Spoiler speculamation on S6
by macfaux
*Sawyer and Jack sitting on a tree..having their chat. Sawyer goes out of his way to specifically set the date; July 1977. Agree?
*Oceanic 815 crashed in 2004. Agree?
*Ajira 316 crashed in 2007. Agree?
And then along comes Kate to... wipe the blood from Jack's furrowed brow..asks him:
"Do you remember when I first stitched you up?"
JACK: "yeah...seems like a million years ago"
KATE: "..or THIRTY years from now.."
or thirty years from now. Wow. Leave aside that the conversation mirrors the one at the end of 4.1 “The Beginning of the End” when they are standing sadly and gazing into the cockpit just before Faraday parachutes in:
KATE: "Do you remember the first time we came out here.."
Jack "..seems like a million years ago..."
And ponder and feature...after alllll the grief Darlton got over the inconsistent date of Charlotte's birth...Does anyone really think that they would let another one slide by? "or thirty years from now"...is Kate math dumb or would she not stitch up Jack '27' years from that moment. I just don't think that was rounding up or an error. just sayin..something changed..something even weirder than Daniels' magical color changing jumpsuit...I think this whole thing is about to be stood on its head ass over tit. Blinding Flash of White Light and Tabula Rasa...Jack's waking eye happens to be 2007 now after the crash of Ajira 316..and Kate Austen and James Ford and Jin and Hurley and Miles and Sayid...have no clue who each other is or what they ..too wierd to type... 'have been ' through because for them in their present it never did. Mr Abbadon said it most emphatically that, "Their were no survivors of Oceanic 815" guess he meant it. Cause Oceanic 815..well.
And now by the touch of Jacob..thing's are different. It was assumed that nothing changed. Suppose it did. Yeah, but what if it did? Kate didn't become a criminal...she was a straight A student and she married a doctor named Tom. She is a soccer mom now...and a leader as envisioned in the original pilot script. James Ford accepted things as done is done...channeled that rage away from revenge and into something like say...hmmm...law enforcement...maybe even a joined the US Marshal Service married a nice lady, lives in LA and three years ago adopted a little boy..Doc Jack let his daddy issues go...Sayid did find and marry Nadia as he intended...and Hurley realizes he ain't cursed and, wait for it, is a musician..and Hurley was right..he didn't have regular conversations or see Dead people. He was talking to folk from...well "I'll see you in another life brother"...Constant indeed.
just killin some time spitballin here..but what do you want to bet we get another..well...ya know. -
Here's my hopefully all encompassing theory. Lost is a show about an age old struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, opposing sides. The dark man (Jacob's enemy, Esau, the Smoke Monster, etc.) is a liar, a manipulator, an entity that hates man, thinks he's evil, vile, ruins the world he lives on; the dark man's greatest desire is to destroy mankind. He wants to erase man and woman from the face of the earth. He would do this the first chance he got, but the only thing stopping him is Jacob. Jacob lives off the land, eats fish, and basically lives like a hermit. I can only imagine this lifestyle infuriates the dark man who wishes to leave the island and cause destruction, but Jacob keeps him trapped there, the only thing standing in his way.
I've actually suspected there has been two Jacobs for a while, with what John said he witnessed in season 1: "a beautiful white light". John is a microcosm for the whole struggle for control of the island. Both sides have been trying to influence him from the beginning (as seen in season 1 in Claire's vision of white and black eyes, and his obsession with back gammon, etc., this was probably because he was the most easily malleable) but ultimately it was the dark man that goaded him into dying, in the form of Christian, and his dead self. It has been the dark man's wish all along for the frozen donkey wheel to be turned, because he knew it would set up a chain of events for Jacob's destruction.
The battle for control of the island has been long and arduous. The dark man, in the form of Alvar Hanso, probably created Dharma. Dharma's ultimate goal was to release the dark man's entire essence from the island (kinda like letting the genie out of the bottle), letting him "cleanse" the earth of all the nasty humans. They wanted to research a perfect society in the meanwhile, so after the earth's population was gone they could form a better utopia (start over from the Garden of Eden if you will). However, the dark man would probably just wipe them out along with everyone else. (Another clue to Dharma's true intentions would be the Valenzetti equation.)
This is why the Others are so at odds with Dharma. That is why they call themselves the "good guys". They are trying to prevent the dark man's release. The Others live by a certain set of rules that the dark man does not. They cannot kill anyone out right, and they can only manipulate the pawns. That is why the Others never really kill anyone (and if they do, they are usually eliminated from the island, Widmore, Eloise, Pickett, Ethan (if he actually killed anyone), etc.) and why they were so conniving in Season 1. That is also why Ben said Widmore broke the rules when he killed his daughter. However, we see in Dharma times the Others actually do kill Dharma peeps, but my guess is this is because Widmore and Eloise aren't the most adherent leaders. Notice Richard's reaction when Eloise shoots Faraday? (I also suspect Jacob's list was for people too pure to play the game, they hadn't accumulated enough sins.)
The game has been played over and over again, age after age, year after year. Like the cylons say, "What happened before will happen again". This is clear in the Others struggle with Widmore. Widmore has been compromised by the dark man. He has been warped and twisted and now has every intention of helping the dark man escape and cause the Apocalypse. For a while, it was my belief that Widmore WAS the leader of the Dharma Initiative, because they had the same goals. I now see that the war is being fought by many different people, over many different ages.
With Jacob's death in Season 5 the whole Lost universe is thrown into disarray. Will the Losties change the past to arrive at a different outcome? Will they be able to change mankind's destruction? Stay tuned.
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This is more of a dream wish "what if" idea of mine, but... What if during the summer or even now Darlton went to the dead actors who played Boone, Shannon, Charlie, Ana Lucia, Eko, Libby and other dead castaways and asked them to come back? How do you think the story would work out? With everyone alive and back on the island, but with memories of everything that has already gone down? With them all getting off of flight 815 with their memories intact or even without their memories? If Darlton did try that which actors would they be able to get and how would they explain the missing characters in both the on & off island ideas? Just throwing ideas out to while trying to figure out in my mind how Season 6 is going to go down.
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Looks like there's another box now.
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It was God. God did it. or the devil, because they can do anything. Isn't that just a little Deux Ex Machina? Also, when Sawyer asked Jack what his motivation was I was sure Jack was going to say, "So I can save everyone and be the hero" same as ever.
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Remember the very first time we saw Jack - he wasn't on the beach climbing out of a dislodged chair or out from under a pile of busted luggage - he was on his back in the jungle, looking up.
I wonder if we've ever seen Jack & smokie together. -
... as far as arranging to bring the "dead" actors back, I suspect that's already happened. Either with previously unused scenes, or via secret conversations. A TMZ ambush interview with Harold Perrineau gave me the sense that he was trying to misdirect the reporters. I had the feeling that if he hadn't been doing more TV work (unlike M-Rod, A3 and Dom-Mon, who've largely been focused on film as of late) they wouldn't have thought to as him about "Lost," in the first place. The strangely low profile of the actors who played Shannon and Boone would also seem to give one this sense. If it doesn't happen next year, that would be too bad, as Hugo's sightings have certainly laid the foundation for season 6 appearances to be "bridged" with those from seasons 1-3.
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I doubt they are going to give up their lead characters. The ratings dip would be huge. Jack, Kate, Sawyer and the gang will all be involved that is certain.
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Lost will have to find it's own reason for everything. There is no way the answers can be satifying. There is just no way.
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for a nintendo platform that won't be invented for another 4,000 years.
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8 months till i know what SMOKIE and the WHISPERS are!! you filthy whores!
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will LOCKE in a wheelchair...going to the doctor's for a checkup.On his way in, he is nearly knocked over by a strung out Charlie Pace, who's pckets are filled with stolen syrnges and glass viles.As he wheels himself close to the front desk, he is greeted warmly by Libby.He pauses briefly, as if there's something about her he cant remember ,but moves on.Apprently, LOCKE'S regular doctor isn't in today-and is being seen by someone else.The door to the doctor's office opens, and out walks Jack Sheppard.The door nudges open even more-and out runs Vincnet.we then slowly zoom out and we realize we can NOW see the roof-and in rock the word "GOODBYE" is spelled out. Then, fade to black, and cut to DARLTON saying "sorry we never said what SMOKIE, the WHISPERS, and the revelation of what happened to the other losties-but we felt the story was told,and it's time to move on"
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Many have assumed that the fence was built to keep the smoke monster "out." What if it was built for the smoke monster... but to keep it "in" a certain area rather than "out?" Since I don't think we've seen the smoke monster on the beach or in the cave, it would seem as if there were only certain places it could travel (likely bound to the path of the island's tunnels/catacombs). Speaking of the catacombs, who in the Dharma Initiative(DI) was living right above the Jughead bomb? Considering what radiation poisoning can do to a person, perhaps the bomb's radiation (along with the smoke monster/doppelganger) might explain the "sickness" to which Danielle once referenced? Along those lines, in 2007, wasn't Ben living in a DI house above the catacombs? Can't both spinal tumors and stillborn children be caused by radiation poisoning? Does Jughead, perhaps, present a scientific explanation for some of the island's goings on--- and would its detonation change more than just a few events?
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You have it backwards. Since science has never, ever, been able to disprove anything in the Bible. Since evidence and archaeology has come up to back up most biblical stories such as the flood, and sodom and gommorroh; it has been the intent of scientists in the last few hundred years to come up with scintific explanations for these events. Watch any history channel or NatGeo program on Biblical events, no one in all this time has ever been able to prove that they didn't happen. Even moses parting the sea is accepted by scientists and explained away as a tsunami. The plagues on Egypt all have a natural occurence. In the purest order of nature, they all scientifically follow each other in the order the Bible states. The Jews were allegedly told by God to circumcise their male children on the eighth day of life, which science discovered thousands of years later is the strongest disease fighting AND natural anesthetic day in the life of a human being. What all scientists seem to miss is one fact. Yes, science and nature can explain how all of these Biblical events occured. However, if there is a God, wouldn;t he use the science and nature HE CREATED to make all of these events occur? If he needed a sea parted, wouldn't He cause a tsunami. If he needed to rain down sulfur to destroy a city, wouldn't He cause a volcano that just HAPPENS to be nearby to erupt? I don't really want to get too far into this debate as this is not the forum for it. Not to mention, you seem to have more faith than I do because i don;t have nearly enough faith to believe that there isn't a God.
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It has never been proven that god exists and yes, I do strongley believe there isn't a god. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You have your beliefs (that my catholic wife shares) and I have mine.
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hey, thanks for mentioning season 4 is out now, been wondering when the hell that one would come.
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As someone wayyyy up there ^^^ mentioned, the guy with Jacob on the beach referred to him as 'friend', which is just something someone would never refer to his own brother as. I think that Deadwood Guy is simply a Smokie manifestation, maybe a previous visitor to the island who had died.
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Almost half the audience keeps coming back for the characters stories. for five years the audience has invested themselves in their stories and I think would cry foul just as much if they didn't find out how the love triangle finishs out as their would be if we never found out about the major mysteries. Besides that Darlton has stated that we won't get the final conclusion to the Love triangle until the series finale.
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Thank you for not shooting back on that post with venom; I appreciate that. There actually is proof that God exists, there is substantial proof. Read The Case For Christ and The Case For The Creator by Lee Strobel. He was a reporter for the Chicago Tribune who set out to either empahtically prove or disprove (it made no difference to him) God. He became a Christian. However, I will agree along with you to disagree out of respect for the others in this Talkback who just want to talk about Lost's gooey goodness. Hey Pa, thanx for the backup, brudda BTW TinSpider, sorry, all my life I've never been able to walk away without getting the last word in. It's a character flaw that has pissed off a lot of people so forgive me.
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They have actually already answered most of your questions this season:
1) Walt is special because he has psychic powers and thus Jacob thought he would be a good addition to his society. No more, no less. Some people in the Lostverse are just gifted that way.
2) Room 23 was just where Ben was punishing Karl and trying to brainwash him so he wouldn't knock up his daughter.
3) And as for the the Sickness, basically there was no sickness! It was just Rousseau's term for the indoctrination that happened to her crewmates when the Monster took them.
As for the Whispers, I'm sure we'll get closure in the series finale. -
lets move on
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My 6 year old had a homework assignment where he had to draw a picture of his best friend and he doing something and write a sentance. He told me that he was going to draw a picture of his 4 year old brother because he was his best friend. I've known of other older people who have also said that their sibling is their best friend.
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Personally I want want to know who are Bram and Ilana, and why she were in that Russian hospital rip-faced.Plus To know what the island and Smokie are won't take, IMO, 17 episodes.
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Question. I hope some die hard fans can please answer this.
There seems to be controversy if the Man in Black equals Smokie. What we do know is that "Jacob's Cabin" appears to have actually been the residence of the Man in Black, whom was imprisoned there as long as the cabin was encircled with ash.
Was the cabin surrounded with ash when we first saw it? If yes or no, when was the ash circle poured or broken? And when the circle was unbroken, did Smokie ever appear as Eko/Alex/Shepherd/Yemi/etc? If Smokie ever manifested itself when the Esau was trapped in the cabin from the ash, they can't be the same entity. -
Yes, but was Smokie ever around when Esau was imprisoned? Or when Esau was trapped, was Smokie mysteriously absent as well?
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is obviously not man#2/mexican coke smuggler. Maybe just a tool.But there was an entity in the Cabin, obviously man #2.
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IS revealed to be the exhale from GOD'S bong hit.The ash? that's the left over ash from his bong, which he tipped over accidentally, thusly surrounding the cabin.THE WHISPERS?GOD trying to choke back the massive bong hit he took. Fellas-you want answers? Well, here you are!
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where's the volcano that produced the ash? i imagine that's part of backstory with JACOB/ESAU dudes.
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So what's your take on "The Seventh Seal" then? Was Bergman pandering to "the dumbest members of the audience" on that one? jk
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To quote the honourable St. Hubbins: "It's such a fine line between stupid, and clever."
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Wow. Well stated sir. I too must say, "The Shield" series finale (Family Matters) is one of my favorite hour longs in television history. Never got into "The Wire" but I hardly doubt it's remotely as good.
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D.Vader, are you any relation to iGlobal radio's former DJ Vader? Just asking.Reading all my posts in this talkback, I clearly started by saying I loved the episode and it blew my mind. having established that, I did make some minor critical remarks about the episode and the preceding Alpert-centric episode.But most of my fun making and tongue poking out comments have been directed at the theorists who seem more interested in making up their own fan-fic versions of Lost than actually talking about the show.Okay, clearly the majority ha decided that the unnamed man in black will be dubbed with the nickname Esau, which at least is shorter than describing him as "the unnamed man in black playing games and turning down fish with Jacob in the finale oppening scene". Personally I hope when the character is finally named Darlton doesn;t bend to the fans will and dub him Seesaw, but from AnaL to TASG the talkback has always handed out nicknames.One easy target I let pass was that there were stil people here who were asking for a translation to the answer to "What lies in the shadow" after that had been answered about ten times. I guess a lot of people just sign in and comment without reading the comments.Nothing on Lost is ever certain, so let me say that it is my opinion that Locke is dead, resurrected UnLocke has always been an imposter, Locke will remain dead and will not return as Zombie-Locke. (And as nicknames go, I was calling him NonLocke but UnLocke is actually better.)Cranky? Grumpy? Hey, I bookmarked this "Good for Jack" talkback before the name was changed to some bizarre coded message and I plan to keep returning fairly regularly, but I hope it's not to eight solid months of bizarre speculation about Lost being a parable about good vs. evil.Any comic book fans remember Steranko's run n Strange Tales, his long Yellow Claw story that ended up being a chess game between Dr. Doom and a computer? That was pretty cool in 1969 but I'm hoping that LOST doesn't swipe an ending from a 40 year old comic book.Cosmic philosophy and religious parables are fine, but I'm more interested in wondering about the specifics like why Ilana was bandaged and how Jacob got a hold of Charlies guitar case.And for all the Lost fans who never managed to learn to spell Mr. Eko's name, can we please all get on the same page and accept IMDb's spelling of "Ilana" (Not Illyana or Ilyana). Yes, I got it wrong before myself, that's why I looked it up. It's ILANA.
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for I, AnaL?
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...the reason it seems like no one on this site is talking about the love quadrangle is because its mainly male dominated and not at the forefront of male curiosity. Im sure you ask any woman, who probably make up half the audience what they want to know and theyll probably all tell you they want to know who kate ends up with. oh yea and you're a fucking asshole for telling pa how to raise his kids. When your crusty sock chud babies grow up you worry about raising them.
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He's the only character not to return post-mortem. Given his nature (read: religousness) it seems to make sense to have him back for the "final battle." Especially since he was offed by Smokie.
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What does 그의 한국어 우수합니다 mean?
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"His Korean is excellent."
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Lee Strobel's case is not "proof" in any scientific sense of the existence of God.
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blnaket out the title on this post.I GUESS it's to emphsize that everything was "wiped" out by the incident....and hARRY, IF YOU'RE LISTENING-that's just plain ole dumb...unless....you nkow something we don't(and no, not the secret receipe to TWICE FRIED TWINKIES!)
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somebody may have already stated this...but wasn't there a book called "the bad twin"?
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Answers to questions are only part of why I watch this show. CHARACTERS are the biggest reason. If I didn't care about the characters, I wouldn't watch the show. Ask any TV professional what matters most in a TV show and they will tell you the same thing: CHARACTERS. If Lost suddenly abandoned those characters, I guarantee the last season would blow up in their faces. And since the producers aren't stupid, season 6 will feature plenty of main character action.
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hopefully, we'll get some answers. lol
What if neither Jacob nor Esau are good? What if Jacob is just a Q-like character, but more empathetic. Maybe he's playing a complicated game that Esau doesn't want him to win (in a sense, going back to what Dance said about the "game" that God and Satan play.) Maybe Jacob is even trying to vindicate the human species.
Did I see it wrong, or did Jacob even bring Locke back to life? I couldn't hear what he told him because someone started talking (again) at the point. I'll watch it again this afternoon.
Personally, I got the sense that Jacob had seen the "time loaf", that is, the entirety of time as it exists objectively, apart from human experience of a unidirectionally flowing time. To him, it's all inevitability. He does what he does because that's what he did. So, even when he does something to "help" Esau, he does it willingly, which would explain why he seems to have done things in the past that helped lead to his eventual "demise."
Last, I don't see elements of spirituality as a weakness to a story's plotline. The reason why BSG was weak in applying its religious elements was that it did it inconsistently and, ultimately, TOO abstractly. I believe you can use elements of mystery and "we'll never know" to tell a story as long as you can find a smart way to do it. BSG was, sadly, unable to pull it together because it didn't have a tight story. -
I suppose James Randi gave Strobel the million dollar prize for his "proof"? And I can tell someone to go read a book, too. Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker or The God Delusion.
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they have a lot of deadwood actors in the show, juliettes sister, truth guy, jacob friend. Good to see these talented ppl on the show
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Cocksucker!
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You doubt the wire is remotely as good as the shield? How about you go educate yourself first then come back here and apologize for making a fucking fool of yourself.
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"There actually is proof that God exists, there is substantial proof."
You've got to be f'n kidding. -
May 15, 2009 1:59:50 PM CDT
DancetoTheBeatofthelivingdead Something I have to say
by theenderreturnstosmiteoncemore
I grew up balls deep in religion. Christian fatih, I wont mention the denomination. Anyway, the reason I began to doubt Gods existence is because of what I see in the world. I have a caring loving mother, who despite being a "good christian" was cheated on and left by her "good christian" husband, my stepfather. Who put my head through a window and threatened to kill me if he ever sees me again, all because I went to the house to pick up my asthma medication, and told him what I think about him cheating on my mom. Besides watching my mother fall into a near suicidal depression for 4 years, I watched the countless floods, murders, child abductions, mass suicides, and car bombings, starvation, etc. etc. pick one from a fucking hat. And I think, okay, God is up there, seeing all of this. And CHOOSES to do nothing. Really? And we are supposedly made in his image? Well I guess im from a different mold. Because when its in my power to help, I help someone, even if its a perfect stranger. Well, he's waiting for the right time, he's fulfilling prophecy...I hear these excuses all the time. And I call BULLSHIT. He did all those mircales in the bible, and now he's suddenly quiet? WHEN WE NEED HIM THE MOST? He decides to stop....let thigns play out. I REFUSE to believe that shit. Because if there really is a God up there letting this happen, then consider me thoroughly disappointed. And if I do get destroyed for doubting him, and expecting more of him than letting GOOD FUCKING PEOPLE SUFFER, Then go right ahead and fucking destroy me. I dont want to be in the company of cowards.
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May 15, 2009 2:00:54 PM CDT
So far... I'm on board with Prof Pop-Culture and Jay2517's theor
by il_deuce
Good work gentlemen. This stuff is delicious for my brain.
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I've wasted my morning reading the posts here. Fascinating. I am still suspicious, and cannot see a way to explain the happenings on Lost outside of a psychiatric facility.
That said--I have no clue how they are going to end Lost.
May I comment that the Biblical Jacob/Esau story ends with Jacob returning to the land of his birth, and encountering his now powerful brother Esau---and they reconcile?
Last thought---I'm really angry about Locke. He deserved better. -
You're out of your element. Do you even watch this show?
If you would've joined us sooner, you would've already read that we are all pretty much on the same wavelength as far as Smokey goes.
Smokey is Esau (which is not his literal name, just a name we gave him to make it easier. Biblically, Jacob's brother). Smokey has taken the image of Christian Shepard. He was also the person posing as Jacob in the cabin. The real Jacob had him trapped there.
Now... eventually, someone let him out inadvertantly and he was wandering around looking for a vessel. That's why he scanned Locke and Eko. He needed someone that would follow him blindly.Make sense. -
re: "smokey can take human form (Eko's brother and Bens daughter)."
Think you answered yourself on that one.
"you call those answers? try 'assumptions'. better yet try 'lame gay assumptions'"
And why exactly can't your brother be your friend? If anything, it seemed Jacob was calling 'beach nemesis guy' (since we can't call him Esau) his 'friend' rather ironically. -
I do think 'beach black-shirted salt-n-peppered haired Jacob nemesis dude' is either a form of Smokey or in some way connected to Smokey (I've been sayin' all the Dead Folk walking around are either physical manifestations of Smokey or an extension of him for a while). But you said that like it was absolute proof. And right after you'd blasted somebody for making 'assumptions' (aka, educated guesses). Pot, kettle, black, that sorta' stuff.
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I got a little tired of Lost a season or so back but I thought this season had really picked up
However lately its been back to the "anything that moves the plot on " scenarios that I really disliked on the show. For the life of me I cannot see the rationale for setting off a plutonium bomb as a way of setting things to right. Ok genius Faraday thought this was the way to go but would a non scientist , faced with a notebook diary of a rambling genius then stake their and everybody elses lives on this.
The, now we are helping Jack, now we're not, was absolutely ridiculous and its madness that Sawyer who had the only coherent argument "Whats done is done" ends up after some more casual Lost violence helping Jack move the plot on.( For a supposedly intelligent show its amazing how the protagonists always end up with violence as their solution. I suppose Jack for example has forgotten that little thing called a hippocratic oath that he took as a Doctor.)
By far the biggest thing for me though is the "Jacob touched people" scenario and the battle between two protagonists in Esau & Jacob. We also get the impression Ben has done the things he has done because he got written instructions from Jacob. So thats it it is ? Because if it is then it somewhat makes the whole last 5 seasons redundant. The Losties were brought there by Jacob and what happened to them on the Island was all down to Jacob and its to fit in with an argument of angels. Thats not exactly a huge mystery but its a nice simplistic way to get around why the Others would have attacked the Losties in the first place. Rather like the nice simplistic answer that Ben spoke to an empty chair out of embarrassment.
So sorrry but its gone downhill for me again. And whilst folk who like interpreting every nuance and puzzle may enjoy the show they'd best be aware at this rate that the answers you may get are probably not going to be as good as the ones you make up yourselves. -
you can only say what it is in french
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Usually, I dread coming into this talkback after an episode of Lost because people have vastly misinterpreted the plot of the show and come up with terrible hair-brained theories. Then I have to either waste my time trying to correct people or bottle it up and move on with my life. But this time, it looks like you guys have just about got it – so I will participate. Feel free to call me out on my arrogance.
Yes, it looks like Esau is Smokey and he is in control of the dead people on the island: such as Locke, Christian Shephard, Horace Goodspeed, Ana Lucia, Yemi, Alex. Which means that Christian was indeed lying when he said he spoke for Jacob.
I’m not so sure that the loophole is something so simple that Esau needed someone else to willingly kill Jacob. Maybe that was part of it. I think the greater loophole he is talking about is taking over Locke’s body by having Locke push the wheel and create a paradox in time – somehow. I’m not sure, but I think the time travel is part of the loophole.
I’m not sure why people are so confused about what happened to the cabin and who disturbed the ash. I’ve read theories about how people think Hurley or Locke made the hole in the circle when they visited the cabin in seasons 3 and 4. Um, no. Even if you want to argue that, you must have forgotten about the weaving stabbed into the door. We certainly didn’t see them do that during those visits.
The most likely answer is Flocke (Esau in the guise of Locke). He did this during the episode “Dead is Dead”. Remember when they went to the barracks and Locke had to go and run and errand. This is what he did. He went to the cabin and messed with it for whatever reason. There is no other obvious answer that doesn’t create a lot of explanation.
Anyway, Ben did a bad thing by killing Jacob. The Devil used his feelings of anger, hurt, and especially pride (“What about me?”) to get Ben to do his bidding. Jacob did not defend himself because he would be a hypocrite if he did. Jacob simply allows people to use their own free will, he does not interfere. “You have a choice” he tells Ben before being stabbed. “You have a choice” he tells Hurley about returning to the island. “You have a choice” Bram (follower of Jacob) tells Miles about his decision to work for Widmore before discharging Miles from the van and allowing him to do whatever he chooses. Jacob does not cause or prevent anyone from taking whatever actions they choose. You could argue that this is a quality of a perfectly loving being. It’s all about free will and Jacob wants to prove that humans will make the right decisions by their own free will.
More to come…
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"So sorrry but its gone downhill for me again. And whilst folk who like interpreting every nuance and puzzle may enjoy the show they'd best be aware at this rate that the answers you may get are probably not going to be as good as the ones you make up yourselves."
That's kinda the philosophy behind LOST, if J.J. Abrams' Wired essay is any indication: http://preview.tinyurl.com/d9npj4 -
jacob was upset. he was almost crying in those scenes with ben. go back and watch them. he was tearing up.
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While what you said was a little arrogant I totally agree with you. But it makes me confused how the dead visits fit into it all. Charlie visited Hurley and to tell him to return. But Claire visited Kate and told her not to bring "Him" back to the island. (Wiether she is dead or not and wiether "Him" is Aaron or and Doc Jensen guessed Locke is debateable.) So could both Esau (for lack of a better name & Jacob be taking the form of dead people? Or maybe thats just it, Claire's not dead but is alive and making visits for Jacob?
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but I totally agree with you & Off island dead visits
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Good questions. Lots of unknowns at this point. Maybe some undeads are serving Jacob and others are serving Esau. But I do think that all undeads retain some of who they were. Which means that indwelt zombie Locke is still a little bit old John Locke. Could Claire’s “don’t bring him back” be a message from Jacob about Locke so that Locke would not fall under the control of Esau? If so, it negates my whole theory about Jacob being entirely hands off.
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Guess you weren't special after all. Perhaps it was Esau who healed Locke, and not Jacob? Kudos for Terry O'Quinn getting to play a brand new character next season without having to do any wardrobe or makeup changes :)
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and not Esau now that I watched it again.
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"I can come back as a zombie any damned time I feel like it, in order to fight my doppleganger, or a possible god-like entity that is using my likeness!"I dunno, but Jack said not to give up on Locke, so...
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"Sorry Jack, but if I had to put my absolute faith in any one person to save us all, it's John Locke."
He who will save us all, indeed. -
they are the first people to break jacob's and esau's "loop". they made the "progress" that jacob was talking about in the beginning of the episode. maybe they're now "reborn" due to them sacrificing themselves unselfishly???
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clear as day.
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Your theory has my head spinning in circles. If Esau is trapped in ash until Fake Locke shows up, how is Smokey running around the island when Real Locke is alive? And if Esau is trapped in the Cabin when 316 first arrives, how does he "escape" to doppelganger the Real Locke if you claim Fake Locke is the one who frees him? More importantly, how is Smokey doing anything if Esau is trapped? Either both Esau/Smokey are free, both are trapped, or both are separate entities?
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More incidental clues that may suggest Jack could already be Jacob:
1) It looks like all the things that Jack (or Jacob-Jack) did in 1977 helped to create The Incident which will lead to the crash of Flight 815 in 2004, which the real/original Jack Sheppard will be on board. Thus, his destiny (which would actually be Jacob-Jack's) was to create the circumstances in which Jack Sheppard is killed so that Jacob can assume his image.
2) In the cabin, Locke saw Christian and Claire -- both of who are family to Jack. Locke was looking for Jacob, but Jacob wasn't there. (Theory: Esau in the image of Christian drew Claire to the cabin and told her to wipe the salt away.) -
...it still kicks ass in my unasked for opinion. The opening gave me as much of a horn the second time as it did the first. Jacob, statue and the Black Rock almost in the same shot. The most of you who are just bitching for the sake of bitching should readjust your tampons and proceed to lick the back end of my testicular sack. Ok that was harsh, but come on the finale rocked, esp all the Jacob stuff and now finally we won't have to scroll through endless paper thin 'Jacob is...' theories. I have a vast array of TV shows in my arsenal (including The Wire, Shield and Sopranos ), and I had all but washed my hands on Lost at ties during the 3rd season, but the first 5 minutes of the finale blew my mind beyond belief. Oh and not forgetting the Jacob death scene. I, unfortunately a grown man of 26, felt a few different emotions during that scene, most of all being sorrow for the doomed character of Jacob, and the actor Mark Pellegrino has never done anything for me in anything i've seen him in prior to his Lost Jacob, man that's some job from the writers and all involved! So I guess the point of all this is just relax and be happy. The days of wishing for any new Lost material are not too far down the road.
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May 15, 2009 4:16:13 PM CDT
The final LOST reveal of the series is that Vincent is really...
by 35minutesago
a cat.
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I understand your heartbreak and frustration, but you now have an epistemological problem to justify your conscience and why you expect good to be better than evil as a preference.. where that comes from. In a chance universe that "begat" itself and there is no God (or no devil), you wouldn't be asking this type of a question. You should not expect anything to be "wrong" or "right". The fact that you have an internal conviction that things are wrong and should be different is evidence against atheism, not evidence for it. And keep in mind that the "free will is to blame for everything" answer that some Christians give is not biblical. The God of the Bible is in control and there is a reason for everything, and He slaughtered His own Son, and that was the biggest most horrible thing ever.. but also the most glorious. It was necessary. Romans 9 gives an answer to your crying out. Your choice to accept it or not. Please understand, I am NOT downplaying the horrible things that have happened on this earth. But on what basis can I or anyone say "they shouldn't be this way!" if there is no ultimate standard of right and wrong, good and evil? If you want to flame me, I understand, but I am trying to have compassion friend. I've asked the same questions you have. The "free will" defense is not correct. Perhaps its even more horrible for you that God predestined everything? But the bible argues that God has a right over his clay to do what He wills. Shall the clay cry up to the potter and say "why did you make me this way?". The story of Job is a good explanation. God gave the devil permission to do all those things to Job, and God was in control. And Job said "the LORD giveth, and the LORD taketh away" (not the devil) and in all this Job did not sin once with his lips, nor did he blame God. Determinism vs. free will is deep stuff. But turning your back on God because of the existence of evil is not really solving the real problem, if you ask me. I know these words probably felt more like daggers than help, but oh well. I said my conviction just like you did sir, with passion.
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The story of Joseph and his brothers. His brothers conspired to kill him, and yet God meant it for good. And good came out of it. God can use evil intentions of man and turn good from it. That good can be immediate or long-term. And the end justifies the means only for God, not for people. And when people try to "play God" and out-think the future and try to manipulate good from evil they are playing God, taking his right away (in a manner of speaking) and nothing good comes from it.
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May 15, 2009 4:29:33 PM CDT
man this is too much theology for my brain to handle...
by drbrianoblivion
...theres only one thing I'm more apathetic about than my own religious views and that's other peoples religious views. But I understand this talk back is for everyone so ill just quietly shutup. No need to tell me.
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...but i don't think Esau and smokey are one in the same, i think smokey is a servant Esau. just like the hieroglyphics on the wall show in the room where Ben was judged.
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Seriously. And about the whole, "Why did Evil Locke look surprised when Ben told him Alex appeared to him" thing... What the fuck else was he supposed to do?! Especially if he's trying to keep up the illusion of him actually being Locke.
Was he supposed to tell him, "Actually Ben, that wasn't your daughter. That was me. You remember I dissapeared for a while while you were talking to Alex? Yeah, that's because I was her. And when you summoned the "Smoke Monster" and he didn't show up, but I walked out of the woods? Yeah... that was me too."
Fuck, you're retarded. You make my brain hurt with your immense levels of stupid.
and if this sounds condescending, it's because I AM being condescending. You're always in here bitching and moaning about something or other, but yet you're always here. Like fucking herpes.
If you're going to be here longer, fucking bring something of actual value to the table you fucking amateur.
Nothing but PROFESSIONALS here asswipe! -
I'm quite sure "possessed Locke" is a reference to the good Dale Cooper being trapped in the Black Lodge while the the evil Bob is possessing Dale's body in the real world.
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they would be nice.
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He got conned his whole damn life? THAT'S the point of his character? What a shitty shitty way to dispose of him. If he doesn't come back, no ending will satisfy me. There are absolutely zero characters I am interested in now, I just want to know what the fucking island is and be done with it. And anybody who gives a pass to Ben, need I remind you that he killed Locke in cold blood. Ben is a psychopath, second only to Kate in 'cuntery' and deception. And somehow, still, I love LOST. Damn them.
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I'm pretty sure Twin Peaks is one of the many sources of inspiration for this show. So that MAY be a Twin Peaks shout out right there. (Love that show)
I'm just wondering if "Dead is Dead" when it comes to the Real John Locke? -
Try again faggot.
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It would end up making John Locke the most pathetic character in television history.
Second only to Ronnie Gardocky or "Lem" from The Shield. -
If all we get is Locke being a simple pawn (actually that makes some sense) I don't think I'll enjoy the series as a whole. Of course who knows?We could get good-Locke vs bad-Locke, or we could just get Locke-prime to come back, or... who knows.As far as "Dead is Dead" goes, we haven't gotten the final say on that since it is still up in the air i.e. Miles and Hurleys perception on the dead.
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just watch the fucking scene. its simple as that. why is there a argument? its right there. hes not fucking crying just tearing up FOR FUCKS SAKE!
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I think that the Locke we are seeing is not wholly the badguy. I think its a shared consciousness sort of thing. I firmly believe that Locke is meant to make the ultimate sacrifice in the series and I will accept him dying in the end but because he chose to not because he was manipulated into it. They have to give us our satisfaction on Locke we as an audience have earned it. And yeah, he's way to tragic to end that tragically. Its Locked dammit, He was introduced tossing a bloody knife at Sawyer. Give us our due!
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Some great theories. I'm all for a "reset but with awareness". One other thought: While all the character's arcs have been clumsily handled since Season One, the Losties trying to reset everything that happened to save those that died was a very noble one. Jack in particular doesn't seem to be doing it because of a psychological need to save people, his heart seemed to be in the right place.
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Really?
Does anyone else think that there's a reason that Sayid's plan to escape the Dharma Initiative was to "hide in plain sight" ( I mean, sure it didn't work and he got shot by Roger Linus, but hey... nobody's perfect)?
Maybe it's a stretch, but maybe it's also a little hint thrown at us from the writer's.
More evidence goes to support the idea that the Smoke Monster is Esau, is Evil Locke, is Christian Shepard, was Yemi to Ecko, posed as Walt to Locke while he was bleeding in the mass grave and possibly others. -
Someone else may have already said it and been chastized, but I don't think Smokie and Easu/Man #2 are one in the same.IMHO I feel that Smokie is 'a security system' as the producers have said before (I think they did - if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me hear about it). Some can call on Smokie, but it may also have other duties when it's out on its own.I also think Easu/Man #2 is and has always been appearing as the dead people on the island. This has served his manipulative purpose.Man #2 and Jacob can both call on Smokie, but Smokie can't kill either one, nor can they kill each other directly.Christian is Man #2 'speaking on behalf of Jacob' to get Locke, and other people, to do his bidding.Ben was being tested - he was patient, but not patient enough - Because of FauxLocke's (Man #2's) manipulation Ben was angry with Jacob and killed him of his own free will.OK, you may commence ripping my theory to shreds. :)
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Every year he dies and comes back WTF!!!
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uhhh, A) THERE ARE TEARS IN JACOB'S EYES WHEN HE SAYS, "What about you?" Any human being with functional clear vision can fucking tell that. My sweet Jesus, you are retarded.
and B) ESAU IS THE SMOKE MONSTER. Deuce is correct, and you are a tool. -
May 15, 2009 4:53:31 PM CDT
wow how old are u lostBOY? ur the definition of TROLL brotha...
by jay2517
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RUN RONNIE, RUN!!!
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Perhaps Man #2's function IS as a security system for the island, and Jacob is his boss. That would explain why Man #2 hates mankind... because he considers them threats to their paradise.
I've been meaning to bring this up... when Jacob offers Esau the fish in the opening scene, does anyone else get a creepy feeling when Esau replies, "No thanks. I just ate..." ? -
well it's also too obvious that you're a silly little preteen fuckwit, but that sure doesn't mean it isn't true.
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I agree with you and if Big Walt was really the smoke Monster/Esau that would explain why Darlton didn't have Locke bring that moment up when he visited Walt off the island. Which I remember a lot of people clomplained about after the Jeremy Bentham episode.
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'Jacob Vs. The Monster' probably wouldn't have made it this far.
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There is no scientific way to test for God. I'm sorry, but if there was proof God existed, than there would be no such thing as faith.
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I saw him manifest His glory in the trailer for Terminator: Salvation.
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I don't have proof one way or the other and neither do any of you, so well just have to wait and see, but if I had to put money one way or the other on the matter I would go with not. It's just not what I expect, and think about it this way. A few days ago everyone was CONVINCED Jacob was gonna be someone we know. WRONG. I could go on a name a dozen different things people were sure of on this show that turned out wrong. These guys are smart, and theyve consistenly come up with thing none of us has thought of. I think it would make old smokie much less interesting than whatever the writers have really come up with. He's something else entirely, IMO.
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I'm calling it. Smokey is an independent entity.
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Hobocode remarked: "Eko's the only character not to return post-mortem."But he did, he was in the mental institution playing chess with Hurley when Jack visited him there to try to get him to return to the island. Oh, sure, you never saw him, because the scene was from jacks point of view and Jack didn't see Hurley's delusional visitations. Other times, when Hurley's visitors such as Charlie were seen on screen, it was from Hurley's point of view. So technically Eko has been back, in the only practical way to bring him back when the actor doesn't want to return.
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I never said Esau was “trapped” in the cabin. I merely said that Flocke disturbed the ash and “messed” with things there – leaving the weaving. I think it is a mistake to unconsciously add rules to these beings of which we know nothing about. Maybe Esau wasn’t “trapped” exactly, maybe he doesn’t just “inhabit dead people on at a time”. We don’t have enough information to give them such rules. We know so very little at this point, it’s hard to make any theory that goes far beyond what can already be inferred.
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A) creature of darkness
B) possession of dead people
C) Bad Locke / Esau isn't onscreen when ben visits the monster, but he does come out of the woods when ben is expecting the monster, a major clue/reveal that was camouflaged by humor (ben telling sun that what's coming out of the woods is something that he can't control, referring to the monster... and ironically, it's locke instead)
D) in the VERY beginning of S1, the smoke monster doesn't kill Locke because he know's he'll need him later.
i could go on, but i mean... it's pretty damn obvious.
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works together better in my mind, but I respect others theories.
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that for the last five years, all you guys have bitched about is "WHAT IS THE SMOKE MONSTER, WHAT IS THE SMOKE MONSTER?!"... and now that we're FINALLY getting solid, credible clues that are totally adding up, everyone's denying it for denial's sake.
i honestly don't understand the motivations of most TBers anymore. -
ever clearly shown or stated that "the Island" can reanimate or revive the dead? People love the idea of Locke not being dead although he seems to be. Many times Mikhail seemed to be fatally injured, only to spring back. Mikhail was shocked by the security fence and shot with a spear gun. But did the island resurrect him or just rapidly heal his injuries, as it has been shown to be able to do? Even fatally wounded Naomi took an incredibly long time to die, with the Island helping her to keep goingClearly something can take the form of people both dead (Christian, Emi) and alive (Walt) as well as some whose status is still unknown (Claire).I don't count Keamy, who escaped from being shot because he was wearing a bullet proof flak jacket.Think of the entire Lost death count: has ANYONE ever returned from the dead? Joanna? Ana Lucia? Shannon? Boone? Pilot? Ethan? Libby? Caesar? Faraday? Charlotte? Alex? Charlie? Nikki? Paulo?Several of those characters have been seen as visions, hallucinations, delusions or "ghosts" but have any of them EVER come back as living beings? Why should Locke be the first?
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Let’s break it down just so we’re all on the same page.
We know that there is a very strong connection between Flocke and Esau. Either Esau is possessing Flock, influencing Flocke, or just creating a presence to carry out his actions – we can’t be certain. This is the least debatable point.
Next point. We could also possibly infer that dead Alex is also under some influence from Esau since her comments to Ben seem to indicate. Moving on.
What do both Locke and Alex have in common? They are both dead. So Esau seems to have control/influence/possession over some, if not all, dead people on the island.
What other dead people have appeared on the island? How about Yemi. You can’t watch Eko’s death at the hands of the smoke monster and say the dead Yemi has no connection to it. The scene with Ben’s confrontation with Alex and the monster also mirrors this scene.
So, without taking any giant leaps it really does seem like there is a definite connection between Esau and the monster. Maybe they are not one and the same, but definitely connected.
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Because it's more fun to speculate
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Seemed as giddy as a school girl when Kimmel asked him about his knowledge about the final scene of the series. It kind of got me excited knowing that Fox, someone who like Naveen Andrews is not very revealing about what they think about the show, was all smiles.
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Does anyone think there's a connection between the broken statue (that leaves the foot) and all of Locke's constant leg injuries? Just sayin.
Prof. Pop-Cult, interesting theories about Jack and Jacob, but I really don't think Lindelof and Cuse are going to tell their audience that their main character was a trick the whole time. If that's not the biggest FU to Lost viewers, I don't know what is. Besides revealing that Locke has been dead the whole time. I'm tending to go more towards the 'horcrux' theory and that each of our main characters hold some part of Jacob (they are on the list, after all). -
but when you figure something out, it's time to move on to the next thing. and anyway, nobody else is offering smoke monster speculations, they're just denying the most plausible theory for no good reason.
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ever clearly stated that "The Smoke Monster" is capable of taking human 9or equine or feline or bunny0 form and posing as a viewers acquaintance? It seems well accepted now that "Smokey" reads minds and appears as a person the subject knows; Eko's brother, Jack's dad, Kate's horse and so on. And I vaguely recall hearing that in an interview, Darlton confirmed that certain apparition sightings were the smoke monster (while others, such as the Hurley bird, they declined to comment on).But are offhand remarks in interviews considered canon? Are podcasts canon? Or is canon restricted to what is shown on the screen, on the show itself?Is "Christian is Smokey" based on anything confirmed by the show, or is it simply accepted because it's been bandied about in this talkback for years?I'm not refuting it, I'm just asking a question. What if any on show evidence is the belief that Smokey appears as Christian and Libby and Charlie both on and off the island, sometimes to people who don't know the form being taken (Michael didn't know who Christian was on the freighter)? Is this in any way factual (that is, accepted as part of the Lost fiction) or is it just fan speculation that's been around for years?
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i'm currently thinking over the notion that if esau is the black smoke, then jacob might be the white light... it's a sketchy idea, but i'm thinking about it.
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The Smoke Monster scanned Locke & Eko in the first two seasons to see if they would serve Esau or Jacob. The Smoke Monster killed Eko the second time because he would not conform to what it/Esau wanted him to do or say. The Smoke Monster spared Ben because it knew that he could be molded to do its/Esaus will.
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Test/pTest
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Darlton actually did a podcast fan question where they said a few thengs that were the smoke monster and said that Remy, kates horse and a few other things were the smoke monster.
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(but without the spaces in between the brackets; y'make two for a double line break, aka empty line between paragraphs. :)
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in a Star Trek sequel. This site is not reporting it!
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because it Darltons own words.
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35... I like your white light theory. Nap... you ask good questions? It also makes me wonder how the smoke monster could get onto the freighter if the sonic fence kept it either out or in. It also raises questions about the C. Shepherd apparition telling Michael, "you can go home, now." I'm thinking that the Esau/Bocaj character's relationship with the smoke monster might be more complicated than currently speculated, but I guess we'll need to wait and see.
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Please no, and this is from someone who loved The Wrath of Khan. 2005 Superman was ruined because it tried to copy the old series of movies. (I also love those originals also.) JJ has this awsome new universe to play with, I sure hope that he does something new.
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i am a stupid puss.
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Yemi = Man #2 not necessarily Smokie. Alex = Man #2 not necessarily Smokie. Here’s the way I see it…Yemi speaks to Eko and decides his fate after Eko won’t do what he wants. Yemi/Man #2 then disappears. Smokie comes in and kills Eko. Could Yemi/Man #2 be Smokie? Yes, but they could very well be different beings. Smokie leaves Ben and flows through the temple basement vent thing. Then Ben turns around to see Alex/Man #2. Again this looks like two different beings to me. I’m not saying they can’t be, I’m just saying they seem like separate entities to me. IMHO Man #2 and Smokie are connected – just not one in the same. Although I do see the other valid points, so they could be. My other thought on Man #2 is that he’s the one who got Locke to walk in the first place. Then when Locke didn’t want to kill Boone what happened? He couldn’t walk. When Locke did what the ‘Island’ wanted (Boone goes BOOM) Locke can walk again. Locke is shot by Ben and left for dead – Walt/Man #2 tells him he has work to do. All of this plays on Locke’s faulty ‘faith’, ‘trust’, etc…By the way… I’m not denying the theory for no good reason, just offering a different opinion with examples I feel makes sense.
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that i guess i'm looking for what they could be besides human. we saw jacob in the beginning doing menial tasks with a sense of childish enjoyment, making me think that being in a human body is something he's not used to. i'm guessing that the bodies that jacob and his enemy were inhabiting at the beginning of the episode weren't their original forms at all, just some human bodies they use sometimes.
this is what gets me thinking about the possibility of a white light/black smoke connection, and how jacob might be the white light (as i've stated previously that i believe esau to be the smoke monster). -
The entity of Darlton confirmed that one.
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It can be used either by Jacob and MCS so they stay in the shadow. That is just a thought.
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You know it. I know it. How the hell, in a random universe, could anything so beautiful and hot evolve? Answer: It couldn't.
Dancetothebeat, while I think we probably share a lot of core beliefs in terms of God, etc., I don't believe a book like Strobel's is for people who don't already believe in God. If the evidence put him on one side, that's great, and if the information in the book strengthens someone's faith, good. But, I don't believe there can ever be definitive proof of the existence of God. God, by His very nature, would be impossible to prove or experience on a physical/rational/scientific level, unless He reveals Himself on that level. Even then, you could only experience God on that level but still be unable to prove the Transcendant qualities of God. I'm not saying there aren't arguments to support the God hypothesis, just that they aren't proof.
Oisin, I completely forgot about the list! Candidates? (Sorry if someone brought this up. It's a pain, and a waste of time, to read ALL the posts; especially ones like: "your a professional cocksmoker and Aids carrier. go back to your fucking hut and tell your momma to get out of my basement. I'm evicting the bitch. your sister can stay though, she tosses salad like an Italian chef!" -
yeah, i wasn't talking about you when i said some people were denying it for no good reason... that said, here's what i think about what you think:
consider it from the creators' standpoint... if yemi/alex/man #2 ARE the smoke monster, how much better an idea is it to NOT just have them morph into black smoke onscreen? showing that to the audience would give us a SHIT TON of information to work with at a time in the show's tenure that they really didn't want us putting those clues together. and anyway, if the smoke monster had just morphed into alex, then ben would've had a pretty hard time believing that it was actually her, wouldn't he?
that's why clark kent goes into a phone booth before he starts ripping his clothes off... so people won't know he's superman. -
No Khan remake. I'm not gonna budge on this one J.J. I don't care if Harry gave you permission. No means no.
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... Jacob/Esau could be anything from Egyptian deities to aliens and the island could be any place from Atlantis to Asgard. Season 6 will be interesting. By the way... each of Ilana's crew was clearly in excellent physical condition. The actually carried that body box for a loooooong walk through the jungle. After Lapidus got up from his "crucifix-like" pose on the boat, he didn't even help.
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No remake. But I would like to see a reference or maybe a storyline with the character. Nothing to prevalent though.
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So there's that.
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period.
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May 15, 2009 7:23:12 PM CDT
35MinutesAgo: I would say Jacob and Esau aren't "beings"...
by prof. pop-cult
That is, they are not aliens, angels, demons, gods, God, the Devil, Satan, Allah, Jesus, etc.. Rather, they are "elements" that are part of our planet. One is light ("Jacob"), the other dark. Neither is necessarily "good" or "bad". Throughout human history, they occupy various human hosts. Their conflict with one another is the direction over whether humankind is ready to return to The Island (which I surmise may be like the Monolith in the movie 2001). The light (or yang side) is compelled to manipulate things in order to help humanity return. The dark (or yain) doesn't think humanity is ready, and must seek the path back to The Island on its own.The last host the light occupied was the blonde (a light hair color!) dude named Jacob, whom Ben killed in the finale. Ben was tricked into doing this by the dark/yin, which manipulated events, so it could assume the image of John Locke.Among other literary works (that include Stephen King and PK Dick), I suspect that Damon and Lindoff have also been heavily inspired by the works of Neil Gaiman -- particularly his Sandman graphic novel series.And for those who are finding all of this very hard to consider or even to accept the possibility, remember that the "science part" of this series was/is represented by an organization that called itself *DHARMA*, fercryin' out. (And this organization's symbol is a take off on the I Ching.)
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...dead AND alive? Maybe?? Also, anybody wonder if Dr. Chang's numerous "candle" aliases are actually time-traveling clones of some sort? If Miles can co-exist with himself as a baby it seems like it's theoretically possible, if not terribly likely. Just throwing stuff out there.
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complete with "magic shoes" in order for Esau to pull his scam, like he did with Christian Shepard.
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it's just that all the evidence points to this. I am, however, open to other theories. Just not stupid ones like LostBoy's.
And even stupid theories can be redeemed by a solid argument. It's just that this kid has the argumentative skills of Mayonaise.
You guys are right though... we have shot out many a theory and many have been wrong, but this is just what it looks like now. and really... we won't know what the fuck to expect until the next season starts up again. It's all so open right now, but right now, I'm just going by what seems logical. I also feel like they're spoon feeding us that stuff, but then again... we're mostly all very intelligent and intuitive LOST viewers and we take into consideration every little detail. That means that the resolution may end up being something that even LostBoyTexas might understand... aka "the Tards".So really, it could end up resolving in a million different ways. This is all just speculation, but speculation is fun. -
Talkbackers coming out the woodworks. I'm still gonna pull a Sawyer on this episode before I speculate tho:
Re-watch a few times before I throw in my 2 cents. Think it through....Cause by then I won't sound as ridiculous as some of the shit I've read on here.
BTW, where were half of these talkbackers during the regular season? -
It represents a "higher being" and the highest point of enlightenment. Add 4, 5, 15,16, 23, 42 and you get 108. I predict that next season, the 5th episode (which will be the 108th episode of LOST) will reveal some big things about the cosmological myth arc of the show. (In fact, I can imagine Damon and Lindoff might simply title this episode: "108".)
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Some retard posted earlier he didn't know what season it was when Desmond turned the failsafe key.
Ho. Lee. Shit. Ah
Not on these boards man. Please go back to the Fuselage. -
and Lost is racist as fuck.
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May 15, 2009 7:55:05 PM CDT
Furthermore: Yang/light = free will; Yin/dark = destiny
by prof. pop-cult
Neither is right or wrong, and the two complement one another and are entwined.John Locke has been associated with the belief in "destiny". Who is his opposite? Jack, who is more associated with the idea of "free will".Jacob was telling people they had a choice, implying they were not necessarily tied to fate or a destiny.This is another reason why I am suspecting now that the Jack Sheppard we've gotten to know since the start of the series is not the original Jack Sheppard (prior to the crash of 815) we are shown in flashbacks of Jack.Walking around in the image of Jack Sheppard, and trapped in it now due to Esau mindfucking with him (appearing as Christian at times), "Jacob" is living out the argument that Esau made to him on the beach that humanity is not ready now to return to The Island. (But, conversely, now that Esau is in the image of Locke, he is starting to understand and experience things from Jacob's side of their debate.)
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Of course, I meant to say above, add 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 to get 108, but I typo'ed a 5 for 8. Mybad.
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I mean, seriously. Is it really that bad of a thing? We would have gotten to know two versions of the same man. The original Jack (as seen in the flashbacks) never found peace. But the ersatz Jack would come to understand the human condition more. In the end, even though Esau wanted Jacob to understand things from his point of view, I could see Jacob-Jack still believing in free will and being even more convinced that people need to return to The Island.And, for all practicality and intents and purposes, I would argue that Esau-Locke is, in fact, still Locke in "spirit" of sorts, if not, technically, in terms of flesh. Same thing if Jack turns out to have been a host for Jacob.Ultimately, I doubt Damon and Lindoff care much about satisfying viewer wishes and hopes that the real/original Locke is not dead and returns, or the possibility that Jack is not the original Jack Sheppard. They only have 17 more episodes to go and that's it. This series is their own creative vision and they're going to play things out the way they envision, without any more outside pressure (ratings, viewer wishes and wants) on them.
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and 108 is the number the Swan hatch reaches when time is up. And the 815ers were rescued after 108 days. And don't flame me for mentioning this claiming "eh.. old news Bilbo" because saying 108 is the sum of all those numbers is about 4 years old, alright? :)
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May 15, 2009 8:15:38 PM CDT
Lost is the story of good and evil playing a game of backgammon
by theoldgunslinger
Look up the rules and common strategy tactics of backgammon.
Look up the Jacoby rule. The most common strategies used are
running game, priming game, backgame, and duplication. These strategies have been mirrored throughout the series. ALso numerous loopholes have been discovered that allow a player to cheat.
The earliest version of backgammon was the egyptian "Senet". It had become a kind of talisman for the journey of the dead. Because of the element of luck in the game and the Egyptian belief in determinism, it was believed that a successful player was under the protection of the major gods of the national pantheon: Ra, Thoth, and sometimes Osiris.
I think simply Lost is the story of good and evil playing backgammon, the island is the board and the people are the pawns. -
I now wanna draw an epic vs. screen of Evil Locke Vs. Jackob.
Evil Locke will have pitch black eyes and Jackob will have light pouring out of them...
I'ma start this bitch this weeked. Thanks for the idea Prof! -
You know, I think this Schrödinger business ain't half crazy. It's science anyways, which we're told will be at the root of it all by the series finale, or whatever.
Maybe that's the box they were literally referring to...figuratively. And speaking of, this box that conjured up Locke's dad...is Jacob the box? The room beneath the foot? If Ben could coordinate the plucking of Locke Sr. out of nowhere via this "box", wouldn't that imply a greater connection to and understanding of Jacob (or Unlocke/Esau/Yankton Cocksucker)?
It's interesting how both Richard and Ben were the mysterious dudes with all the secrets and answers and now they seem to only know about two and a half things between 'em?
In fact Ben's knowledge and mystery seemed to peak a few seasons ago. Unless he's lying about how much he knows. sigh.
This TB is already overwhelming. I'll never make it through the intervening months 'til the next TB. It's going to turn into a wienerload of posts that nobody reads other than the trolls and flamers at war. But I may visit from time to time and abuse the Ctrl+F. -
That's my contribution.
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this proposed Locksau VS. Jackob pic... go check out www.rafaelcasillas.com
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How exactly am I a douchebag, bitch?
Please explain? Is it because I'm disagreeing with you and calling you out on your bullshit or is it just because you're secretly in love with me and just can't find the words to say it so you resort to the grade school tactics of trying to tease those you secretly dig?
Now... I'm off to fist your dad while your mom blows me. So go ahead and troll on, but I won't be watching. Peace junior. -
you stay classy
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I don't think Smokie is the same being as the various dead people that have appeared. Too obvious at this point. Neither has Smokie been proven to be particularly malevolent. It's spared people just as often as it has killed them.
At the very most, it is controlled be Esau, but I'd be willing to bet it still has a mind of it's own. -
It's possible that there are two smoke monsters. One controlled by each.
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a Smoke Monster and a Light Monster (what Locke saw in S1).
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Enjoy pouring through my pics and realizing that I'm much more awesome than you could ever be.
and that I have people that I can call friends.
and that I can drink.Have fun nurturing this unhealthy obssesion with me, fag. -
Nah, really. Cause I saw black fuckin smoke all throughout season 1.
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... this bickering of yours is very unbecoming of a lady.
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LOST went and pulled a BATTLESTAR. They're going to explain the whole thing is symbolic of angels/Eden/God/Satan, etc. Two sides, one black and one white, that's all well and good - but turning this show into yet another show for the Godheads? No thanks. I had hope the show was about human beings - not abstract concepts that don't ****ing exist. Nice one, guys. Stick a fork in my faith. I'm done.
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If he's Esau... what is in Esau's prerogative to protect the Temple? What does the temple do? What's in there?
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Peace. Who the fuck was that guy anyway? Fuckin finale fucks. Be here the whole time during the season for some respect.
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Please? I missed it last night. I'm missing it now.
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"What part of Locke Box don't you understand?" LOL
Gotta love that sneaky bit of dialogue between Locke and Richard on the way to meet Jacob...
Locke: We're gonna need to deal with the rest of the passengers from the Ajira flight who brought me here.
Richard: What do you mean, "deal with"?
[ominous music cue]
Locke: You *know* what I mean.
[cut to: The Ajira Crew- Ilana et al -transporting dead Locke by boat!]
"Brought me here" takes on a whole new meaning the second time around, doesn't it? I'm with Richard in wondering what the "deal with" part is going to be... -
I said something to the effect much earlier, but...where did you get the 'Godheads' from the finale? I can understand inferring that, but religion is never mentioned. Sure, there's analogies to religious stories and concepts, but that's been there the whole time. But the only 'weird' things we've seen blatantly on the show is that Jacob doesn't seem to age (which, coincidentally, we already saw somebody doin' that, in Richard Alpert), and this other dude somehow is walking around as a dead guy (again, something we've already seen all throughout the show). I'm not trying to be an ass, but I'm really wondering how people make the jump to it being 'all about religion' and 'gods' and whatnot when we haven't had AAANY proof.
And how in the world is it NOT about the human beings, even if Jacob and his buddy do end up being some sort of demi-gods? The whole show is about the Losties, plain and simple. Even Jacob goes to each one of them, because for some reason they're important. If you take the opening discussion on the beach as talking about humanity at large, then it's DEFINATELY about human beings.
Honestly, I don't mean to be attacking or anything; I just don't get the complaint people have that "It's all about religion, I'm out!" -
If Bocaj was trapped in the cabin, how was Smokey able to roam free around the Island? Ben was able to call Smokey from his house. That means that the previous natives on the Island were able to call upon Smokey from that same location. Its not "pretty damn obvious". Its pretty damn ambiguous with evidence for either side. Much like the show has ALWAYS been for everything: evidence for this character being good or bad, evidence for this being scientific or supernatural, etc etc.
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...has a bit of a negative ass. I mean it's like a typical white girl ass. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not like an ASS.
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reading his "impersonations" of my favorite dramatic character of all time really kind of makes me want to kill him.
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all of your evidence is based on the assumption that he was trapped in the cabin, in every possible form. that's a huge assumption right there.
i might've missed that part of the show, but as far as i know, that's just speculation... until now, we were all led to believe that was where jacob resided/was trapped. -
And perform miracles and do all sorts of magic tricks and basically act like God, and STILL you would have people that wouldn't believe. We're human. That's what we do. We question, we speculate, we suspect, we become skeptics. There would be lots of people who think this is just some strange, unexplained entity (an alien, something new) that is just *posing* as our God as a way to gain our trust and lower our defenses. What does this have to do with anything? I dunno. That's just people. And you can't proof God exists. Even if he came down. It wouldn't be proof.
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Bocaj is Smokey because... they're both dark characters? Locke isn't onscreen when Smokey shows up is proof? Its could also be called sleight of hand or a red herring. If there's one thing I've learned from this show, there is a LOT of coincidence (or fate, whatever), but its certainly NOT evidence. Like I said, its still ambiguous. Are they one and the same? I'm not buying it. Connected? Possibly.
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Faraday is the variable..he is, has, will change things. Just as he planned. The time line and character history is, has, will change. The skipping record...the flashes were maybe more than trips across time and were resetting the world anew. For certain folk.
*Go back to 5.4 - "The zodiac is gone..."..now maybe someone took it...rose and bernard...or maybe, jusssst maybe... it never came to the island at all...in this 'Iteration'.
*Go back to 5.5 - "Look for it at the Well..." "Now, how the hell did Charlotte know this was here" ...Just before Charlotte 'died'..when her consciousness was going all bendy and back forth...perhaps what she really had was a bit of what ailed Desmond? She was remembering new 'memories' that were just coming to her because they were just happening in 1977...ala Daniel and Desmond at the hatch. What do you want to bet that the moment the camera didn't share, the moment when it pulls back..when Daniel is saying his final words to young Charlotte on the swing..what we didn't hear, was him telling Charlotte about the Well. And the reason Charlotte did not come along with Dan in that last flash..was maybe because now in that 'Iteration' Charlotte never did return to the island...sweet juicy wonderful paradoxes.
There would seem to be different and distinct histories or realities or multiverses or whatever intersecting on this junction point (the island) in space and time...for certain folk. And maybe that is what it is ..the island...because of it's unique properties...the one place on the planet that exists, or can exist in all realities, all possible and potential probabilities of Time...all 'Iterations'. For certain folk.
So as Juliet said...Jet lag does not cause brain hemorrhages. But what would happen to the mind if all of and in sudden rapid fashion the brain had to assimilate a multitude of new and funnily knew memories and experiences from an altered life history..might cause the neurons to glow a bit hot in the brain pan, cause a little expansion... swelling....bleeding.
It goes all the way back to season 3 (and even farther) as I have always been bugged about what went splash in the water after Naomi parachuted on island...HER chopper she said..and some supposed that a lie, but what if it tweren't. Was that a second chopper off the kahana..or was that a chopper from an entirely different mission..in time and space. Sure it is possible she had contact on the sly with Penny...but why the Photo of Pen and Des and why the Portuguese catch-22. 'Iteration'
Catch-22 indeed. "I'll never leave you again, Pen." Famous last words...Man, I have the saddest strangest feeling that Desmond is back on that island, already. Again. Desmond is the Constant for than we suppose, I think.
"It's a loop..it's been playing on a loop for..." well since the last five minutes of the Series pilot.
I'm goin to the pub! -
Smokey took the form of Ben's daughter for sure.
@ 35 Minutes Ago
Because it is the most plausible reason, and there are no apparent counter-arguments, they just want to say "Too easy". Based on the evidence thus far, I have evidence to believe that Jacob is the Smoke Monster and some evidence to believe that Esau is. Or that it is a separate entity.
Smoke monster manifestations, in chronological order, from Lostpedia:
Some time in the past:
1. Smoke is worshipped as a protector by unknown ancient peoples
1988
2. Time jumping Jin in 1988 witnesses the Monster attacking Rousseau and the Frenchies. One dude gets sucked by the monster into the bowels of the temple. The Frenchies try to save him. Rousseau confronts one of the Frenchies later, claiming that he had been changed by the Monster. The dude said the monster was a security system guarding the temple, and then tried to shoot Rousseau.
Season One:
3. The Losties see Smokey tearing shit up in the jungle.
4. Monster kills pilot, chases Jack, Charlie, and Kate until they hide under a banyan tree.
5. Locke looks into the eye of the island, and what he saw was beautiful, and it was a bright white light. Question: Is this Esau, starting his long con?
6. On day 6, while Jack was chasing an image of his father, the Monster’s noise could be heard as Christian appeared among the trees. Jack finds the caves.
7. Boone has an hallucinogenic vision of the Monster which is consistent with past and future encounters.
8. The Monster chases the Losties on the way to the Black Rock. They hide behind a rock and Rousseau says they are safe and that the monster is a security system to protect the island.
9. Losties carry the dynamite from the black rock and are chased by the Monster. After his past encounter with the Monster, Locke was confident he would not be harmed and decided to approach it instead of running away. However, this time the Monster did attack him and knocked him to the ground. After looking up in horror, Locke stood and started running frantically. He was then "grabbed" by the Monster and dragged across the ground by his left foot. Jack was able to grab Locke by the arms as the Monster attempted to pull Locke into a hole in the ground. The black smoke was visible around Locke's ankle in two shots as he was being pulled into the hole. Locke told Jack that everything would be all right and told him to let him go. But Jack refused, ordering Kate to get the dynamite from his backpack and throw it down the hole. When she did so, there was a large explosion and Locke was released. The cloud of smoke was then seen dissipating as it retreated from the group. ("Exodus, Part 2"). Later, Locke describes what he saw as "a column of black smoke" ("Man of Science, Man of Faith"). Question: If this was Esau, what was he planning to do with Locke?
Season Two
10. Eko encounters the Monster, stands his ground, sees images from his past in the smoke, and the Monster goes away.
Season Three
11. Three weeks later, the Monster takes the form of Yemi, Eko’s dead brother, and told him it was time for him to be judged. The Monster almost envelopes Eko before Locke bursts through the tree line and Smokey goes away.
12. Eko is judged by the Monster after refusing to confess his sins, and has the shit kicked out of him. Locke cradles dying Eko in his arms, and asks Eko what the Monster said. Eko replies “He said we’re next”
13. Spiders that killed Nikki and Paolo were Smoke Spiders.
14. The Monster chases Kate and Juliet. They hide under a banyan tree, Smokey flashes them, then goes away. Later they are attacked again, and Juliet activates the sonic fence, which stops Smokey. Juliet claims that the Others don’t know what or who Smokey is. Question: Why should the sonar fence stop Smokey if it is supernatural?
Season 4
15. Ben summons Smokey through the special door in his house, and Smokey smokes the mercenaries.
Season 5
16. Sun and Frank hear the noises of Smokey, right before seeing Christian Shepherd. Christian showed them the photo of our Losties in the Dharma suits.
17. Ben gets judged by Smokey in the Temple. Ben feels sorry for what he did, and Smokey goes away. Smokey apparently reappears as Alex, who warns Ben not to fuck with Locke or he will get eaten, Smokey style. Question: Is it possible that both Jacob and Esau can control Smokey?
And that my friends are the only official sightings of Smokey. Right now, it’s up in the air. I can't draw a conclusion either way. If I had to, I'd say Smokey is controlled by Esau. -
"Smokey took the form of Ben's daughter for sure."
Is that from Darlton? Same podcast people earlier were citing where they said Smokey was definately the Yemi that was runnin' round? -
*Smacks forehead*
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And thats too bad because I see ole' Smokey as someone pet! And I think its funny that we've been seeing things perform from a bad guys' perspective for quite awhile!I say awhile because I just see the island as evil. I mean why do it allow so many killings to happen if it was good?I'd like an "oh shit" revelation to befall the Losties that they were all wrong for coming back to the island!
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I just looked at those screencaps (thanks for posting them, losboytexas), and as Jacob is dying, he falls onto Ben and grabs his torso for stability. Or was it for something else? Can't believe we didn't notice that (maybe someone did and already mentioned it), but we were sorta sucked into the moment, so a shot of Jacob touching Ben would be hardly noticed. If our theories about Jacob putting a bit of himself in all the main characters, blessing them so to speak, then maybe Ben is forgiven and will be part of the resurrection process?
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My point about Ben and the natives being able to call upon Smokey was *not* connected to the idea of Bocaj being trapped in the cabin. My point with them was, if it was Bocaj they were calling, why the hell would he give a damn? Why would he answer to the humans he seems to dislike so much? Its a contradiction.
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It's simpler and funnier. Easu just sounds like "Oh, we know what the writers are doing, it's SO PREDICTABLE we're so far ahead." Bacoj doesn't exactly flow off the keyboard. NotLocke is what it is! Please update your calendars accordingly.
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Hard to type. Bail.
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In the 1 hour special before the Season Finale. They didn't say "Locke appears to be alive" or "A character we haven't revealed yet is pretending to be Locke." They said "Locke is alive." So was that a bait & switch or could the Real Locke be an active part of Season 6? I think it would be funny if the first shot is "Dead" Locke's eye opening. :^)
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May 15, 2009 9:59:00 PM CDT
So now that the religous angle has been brought on
by chittychittygangbang
Is Smokie nanobots or a figment of Eusa's presence?
I really thought nanobots after Ben sicked it on the soldies, but then again, you almost have to think that it is a "spirit" -
I don't remember that. Don't remember that at all... To the DVD archives!
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How does that fit into your theory?
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Chitty. Much like they debunked the purgatory theory. But I do feel like it is a spirit of some sort.
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As a "column of black smoke"? Way before we ever saw it confront Eko? Damn, I'm usually really good with the details, but those two have eluded me.
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when confronted by smokie. He said it was beautiful.
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The camera angle shot down on Locke and gave an indication of "I am alive and looking down on this person"
But from then on...It seems Smokie was always shown from the ground up.
Either as he was slipping through the trees with a whiff of black smoke trailing, or as a presence tearing through trees announcing its (his?) presence.
I think a clue could be that way that Smokie has been played.
One minute a mystery figure that judges people on their merits, and then a cloudy pit bull that Ben releases on the soldiers. -
Or that Smokey can look like something else, when he wants. Back in S1 there was a theory I agreed with that there were 2 monsters on the Island. In the pilot episode, the LOSTies see trees moving around on one part of the Island and then BOOM- suddenly there are noises and trees moving from a *different* part of the Island, far far from the position of the original sights and sounds. Then of course, we see Locke confronted by the monster, and he says its beautiful. When he sees it again in the finale, the look on his face says its not the same thing he confronted before. He even has words with Eko over it in S2 and they both agree they saw something completely different. Parts of S1, when characters were hiding in trees from the monster, there seemed to be an increase in light at some points, leading towards the idea that there was a monster of light. I think some have debunked that last idea as explaining that the shots in which those occurred were showing the polar bear or monster moving in and out of the light (going away), thus making the scene seem brighter than it was at first (and of course Smokey and the Polar Bear both came right back, thus making it seem like the light heralded their return).
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Up above I suggest that his tapestry, in which an all seeing eye focuses its light and sight on all sorts of figures, connecting to each of them through a colored thread. Could the eye be Jacob, the figures the LOSTies? Well check out THIS screencap- one of those figures is clearly SITTING down. In a throne perhaps? I'd rather like to think its a wheelchair...http://tinyurl.com/oazzzo
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very interesting. Someone needs to translate the words on Jacob's wall from the beginning.
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The first tapestry, in the opening sequence, was a quote from "The Odyssey" I think. That might be the case with the second quote too, I dunno.
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But I wonder just how long the creators will use him as a pawn.
Think of how many times he has been 'duped' by his trust in his father, his coworkers lack of respect (box company) and now his death.
We have to now question whether Locke was ever a strong figure, or just another pawn in the struggle between good and evil.
Personally I loved his character and believe it deserves a better fate than 'host' for spiritual boxing match. -
I think it'd be unconventional and very true to the character who he really is. He really didn't know what the fuck he was doing, just being pulled like a puppet. I like Terry O'Quinn alot, though, and I'd be happy if they brought him back as NotLocke as the main villain for S6.
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This is what they have said vis a vis the Monster
Carlton Cuse: Well then, he might be a manifestation that the Island has generated. Perhaps an incarnation of the Monster?
Damon Lindelof: That's interesting. I would assume that that's sort of a theory that people are tossing around. Um… there's several manifestations in that episode. All of them seem to have come from Eko's memory. So, could one assume that when they last faced off, that all those flashes that happened in the Monster cloud, that it was sort of "downloading information" that it might want to use at a future date?
AND
In the Official Lost Podcast/May 26, 2006, the producers said, "There's a good chance that you guys saw the Monster this year Season 2, but just didn't realize you were looking at the Monster." Gregg Nations later stated that the appearance of the Monster was after the episode "The 23rd Psalm" and likely in the second half of the season.
Lostpedia states that Smokey tooks these forms, but I don't know if that is just inferred on their part, but it seems very likely. -
anybosy that follows his dream to trying a walkabout in a wheelchair isn't a loser.
He trapped and killed pigs for supper, basically provided a survival "reality show" for the rest to follow.
At what point was he taken over as Easu's pawn? Did this happen earlier than we thought?
When he said it was beautiful, was that a trick or a glimpse into his future self-worth?
What I'm saying is that Locke may have been 'taken over' long before we thought he was. -
Awesome! Thanks for all that info, dude.
I'm slowly but surely formulating my own personal over-all theory here...need to re-watch the finale again and think some more, though. 'Cause there's a LOOOT to think about. Expect multiple posts. Night y'all! -
Is Vincent's head with a human arm. Pontificate on that. AK out.
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What if the 77 folks never make it back into the future? Did you guys saw how creepy was that old lady who look just like Juliet?The way she stared at Sun and Ben when Evil Locke first approached Richard?I say Jack & co never made it back.. Juliet survived the fall and went on to live with the 77's hostiles, therefore waiting 30 years in order to set things right when the time came for Esau's little coup. And so did the rest of them. Mark my words, Sun is going to meet Jin again, but he will be a 60 year old man, having waited 30 years to meet her once more.
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Just like every single character on Lost, John Locke sometimes behaved in a way that a judgmental person would call “pathetic” or a “loser”. However, throughout his whole life, John battled this label and judgment, which is admirable. He did some bad things (the Boone fiasco) and some pathetic things, but he has done a lot of good things too. He has taught and instructed many of his fellow castaways (Charlie, Boone, Claire, Walt) and been rather wise at times. Of the characters on the show, I think he's one of the nicer ones. I don’t think the writers mishandled his arc somewhat in the middle (I think most of the major characters arcs were mishandled) and I was actually pumped that Locke was coming in to his own this season, and that he didn’t almost commit suicide only to be savagely murdered, but alas he is dead. Again. So I’m hoping for a reset, or else I’m just gonna be pissed as fuck.
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So Locke finally becomes the hunter.
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But I can accept Locke as a complete and utter failure in life with no destiny if they really punch the fact that he was the most important cog in "Esau's" Epically Long Con. It's a sad notion, but its bold, to pull such a stunt on a character like that. I wouldn't put it past them.
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Locke's worst enemy has always been himself. I like what the writers did with this. Maybe he gets to battle himself again maybe not.
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It's bold, and I'm sure they will play it off that Locke‘s death indirectly caused the Losties to go to 1977 which led them to detonate the H bomb that led them to…(battle the evil Esau forces and overcome them, save the Island). It's still shit. IMO
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How long has Locke been dead now? At least a couple weeks? They're trying to trick me by going backwards and forwards in time. But, bottom line, that body is going to smell.
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and not to be too picky, but Jacob's Korean was most definitely *not* excellent. Neither was Charlotte's.I get what they were going for by saying that Jacob could speak foreign languages fluently (let's face it, if he's as old/godly as we think he is, English probably wasn't his first language), but they could've spent a little more time with the actor working on his enunciation before making that claim.
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1) Esau cannot absorb the memories of those he impersonates. Evidence? He didn't recognize his old camp until Sun pointed it out. He was faking it, and the fact that he had Ben recall the Cabin incident from season 3 only means that was him in the cabin impersonating Jacob. Counter-evidence: He remembered the cabin-incident from season 3 because he absorbed Locke's memories. If he also assumed Christian Shepard's form (which no one seems to be disputing) then he absorbed Christian's memories, as he knew who Jack was, and knew where to find Jack off-island, and also who Claire was. 3. Third possibility - brain hurting a little at this point--Esau was involved as much as Jacob in off-island course-"pushing". "Sometimes you need a little push" as Jacob said to Jack, handing him the Apollo bar.
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"There is just stuff people do."
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"But then again,
that might have been a dream.
I think I used to have a voice.
Now I never make a sound. I just do what I've been told,
I really don't want them to come around."Sorry to bring up some random qoutes, but I just got back from seeing Angels & Demons (which actually has neither), and I just thought I would chime in. -
Hurley was the only one who Jacob visited post being on the island. Why?
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... even though I can't keep up with the details. For me, it's the characters and the interactions that have kept me on board. I thought this season was pretty damn good, but then, like I said, I don't sweat the details. I feel that the Juliet epilouge was a lil mistake... but I'm happy to be in the dark til the season finale next year. Yeah!!!
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The over all plot for season 6 should basically follow the plot points of Superman III.
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A cannon is a big gun that makes a loud noise and causes a lot of destruction. Is that what you're saying, that Darlton, the shows big guns, are sharing explosive news thast causes a big uproar and alters the landscape?I was asking if anything other than what appears IN THE SHOW itself is considered canonical, that is, information that counts.Because...
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It seems to me that if you have over a hundred hours to tell a story, you should be able to tell that story within the context of the show itself without scattering information out in web sites, novels, comics, webisodes and minipods and podcasts and interviews. A person should be able to watch Lost, say they've seen it, and be able to "get" everything the writers felt they needed to know.The Smoke Monster is, well, a cloud of smoke capable of solidifying and causing great physical destruction and targeting specific objectives. Whatever impersonates yemi and Christian and off the island christian and Kates Horse and maybe the cat and "Tall Walt" and backwards talking Walt and ghosty apparition Claire and appearing on the freighter to Michael Christian and vindictive Alex - whatever is doing that, and apparently posing as NotLocke or UnLocke, is capable of taking the form and appearance of others, claims to be unable to help people (suggesting that it may not be able to physically interact with people, only appear as an illusion), is capable of human speech, possibly including the capacity to lie. There does not seem to be any overlap between what Smokey can do and what the Imposter (to coin a nickname) can do.IF these two completely distinct entities are intended to be one and the same entity (or deity), that is a pretty big piece of information to NOT ever clearly show or explain ON THE SHOW.When they launched LOST they said it would be a TV showl they never touted it as some interactive media phenomenon for computer geeks or that you'd have to study the creators interviews to get the whole story. Generally, that's not how Tv is supposed to work. If a writer has a story to tell, they should tell it ON the show, otherwise, well, as Locke said about Kirk, pretty piss poor writing.It's been pointed out to me that Alex was definitely Smokey, so I will have to go back and watch the scene where they show the smoke monster actually assume the form of Alex... because I don;t remember seeing that, and it's funny that I'd forget about it, since it does seem like a pretty important point. Especially if legions of Lost fans take as canon something that's never been shown or established ON THE SHOW, only in interviews. Especially considering that it's not like Darlton never said anything untrue or misleading to a reporter.And if there's no on the show proof that the smoke monster and the person, entity or deity posing as various dead characters are the same being, then all this speculation that Smokey, the Imposter, NotLocke and Seesaw or ManInBlack or Bojak are all the same thing is just getting way, way ahead of what's been established on the show.
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I understand where you are coming from, and that's okay. I respect that. But I don't think it's a stretch to say the most powerful being in the universe, can step in and help when things are bad. And they are bad, and if he cares, he should show he does so by helping. Another thing, when Adam and Eve were banished, it says an Angel was guarding the tree of knowledge with a sword. Really? Therefore God created weaponry, and weapons are used for violence. This has never made sense to me. Another thing, the children yelling "Go up you bald head." And....the punishment is A GROUP OF FUCKING BEARS COMING OUT OF THE WOODS AND LITERALLY TEARING THEM APART! People say I over react. Yeah? Well apparently so does God. Look, I think it would be great if there is an all powerful being looking out for us. But I don't see solid evidence of this. And I don't see how Historians living in the time of Christ managed to miss him completely. I also don't agree with the douche bag picture that has been painted of him by Catholics and other so called Christian religions. If he was there, great, but PLEASE, for the love of mercy, at least help the starving kids in Africa. Fuck me, don't help me I'll be okay. but help those poor bastards out.
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"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
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Thats what this show is for. Its not bad writing. Watching the show itself will give and always has given us all of the needed parts to enjoy the show and to know whats happening. Now those that actually pay attention are actually rewarded with hints of whats to come. The show stands on its own and always has, but when fans listen to the podcasts or play the ARG not only do they find out more information, but get hints on whats to come. Thus rewarding those that actually put forth more effort. WHats great about this show is that it caters to both the casual viewer and the fan who wants to dig deep and find out more. The casual viewer can watch and will get the full story from begining to end. But the more that a person puts into it the more they get out of it. That makes the writers not piss poor, but in my book great. For scenes like when The Smoke Monster takes the form of Alex sure its not spelled out for us. Nether was the Wampa in Empire Strikes Back until Lucas had to go and make changes and add a scene where he held our hands and said look little one this is what the Wampa looks like, gee isnt he scary now that you can see him? Im glad that Lost is a show where not everything is shown to us and we have to think and speculate and try to figure things out for ourselves and if we put in the extra effort then theres clues to figure out our questions.
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And there are a lot of people who choose to follow him and devote their life to feeding kids in Africa and other places. There are rich people who also give money which is used to help people. Can there be a lot more people who do this? Yes. Can there be a lot more people who treat others with respect and kindness? Yes. Part of Gods hand in our lives is to allow us to go through this test during our time on earth to become worthy to inherit all that he has and become like him. But growth comes from opposition and trials. So bad things are a needed thing to test us to see if we will continue to serve others and God. Im the first one to say that Im not perfect but religion is a way that some people use to become better. I don't fault anyone who chooses differently I respect anyone who does. I just know that I personally am a better person for having religion in my life. I know that religion can be a touchy subject and the finale possibly had lots of it so naturally it part of the discussion. So lets all be respectful of what everyone has to say both when we argee with a person or not.
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Yes, they did not show the actual transformation on screen. But they showed it very obviously, no podcast or lostpedia needed. Yemi says "You speak to me as if I am your brother", runs into the jungle, Smokey comes out a second later and kills Eko. That's pretty straightforward. Ben encounters Smokey, flashes images of his daughter, Smokey disperses, Alex appears, talks in a very un-Alex-y way ie. "I will destroy you", then she disappears. This is not hard to figure out and it was rather plainly presented on the show. There's not showing the pieces, and then there's being deliberately obtuse.
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Theres a small handful of people I talk to during regular season, but the majority of you dudes on here now really have no credibility with your bullshit-ass theories.
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Asshole...Carlton & Damon CONFIRMED IT WAS SMOKEY. Do a fuckin search on Google dick.
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it's all about darkness vs. light. Jacob is the "light." Light is associated with movement, travel, time passing, people go out and do things during the day. The rays of the sun reach out and "touch" all of us when we go outside.
"Esau" is the "darkness." Darkness is associated with blindness, being stationary, sleep, hiding, overall just not what people commonly associate with normal sociable behavior.
Neither one is good or evil. They each have more in common with forces in nature, rather than human beings. Morality, as we see it, means very little to these beings.
Also, at this point I'm almost 100% positive that "esau" is smokey. From the moment that the losties first encountered the monster in season one, it has terrorized them. The only two it never seemed to really harm were locke and eko and I think that was only because it was trying to see which of them had the island's best interests at heart. When it realized that Locke had more "faith" it slaughtered Eko.
I mean in the first shot in the finale, "Esau" walks onto the beach coming from the direction of the jungle to meet with Jacob who is sitting on the sunlit beach.
Light must exist for there to be darkness and darkness must exist for there to be light. -
if I'm both an asshole and a dick, I guess I can fuck myself. Care to demonstrate?I don't know where everyone else is comin' from, I've been in the Lost talkbacks from the very first one on, though not in all of them. And, as I mentioned above (only because someone asked), I did drop out for a couple of months this season while I was banned.
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Sorry, maybe calling Darlton piss poor writers is harsh, but I still think that if "the Smoke Monster' can seep through the woods and throw people against trees when summoned... and can also read minds, take the form of dead people (and animals) and imitate their voices accurately, appear on and off the island, persuade a young mother to abandon her bay-bee and convince the islands former leader to kill his "higher power"... which is a LOT of impossible superpowers for one entity... than that fact should be clearly established ON THE SHOW.And if it is going to be shown in season six but Darlton confirmed it in an interview in season three or four.. that's a pretty big SPOILER, isn't it?Look, it's like this. Say you wrote a novel, but left out some very important and essential details, and then wrote about the details necessary to understand the story in a letter to a friend or in a magazine article. And then when critics said the novel was missing some important details, defend it by saying the information exists... out there... somewhere.Sorry, that's not good writing. And writing a 100+ hour TV show that requires internet access and studying interviews for clues to garner all the information required for the show to make sense is NOT great television writing.Don't think I'm not a Lost fan - I like what's on the show, its the important details they seem to have skipped over or left out that I'm not too crazy about. And the Lost talkback theorists who build intricate scenarios based on "facts" that have not been shown on the show that I fail to understand.
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You CAN fuck yourself.... Dont guess. I provided 2 actual facts. Do that shit in private. More emphasis on not posting. Make that the the real private priority. save yourself the humiliation.
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I was all the craze when Terminator 2 came out. Michael Jackson used it in a video. And within a year it was so common and overused that it was showing up in local used car lot commercials. It's a pretty simple in-the-computer special effect. Showing a cloud of smoke turn into a person would be a fairly simple special effect for a show with Lost's budget. You make a persuasive argument that Smokey was Yemi and Alex, but it would have been a lot clearer if they'd sprung for the SFX and shown the transformation. If it's supposed to be an established fact, why not show it? And if it's supposed to be a mystery that will eventually confirmed in season six, why spoil it in a podcast?
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I didn't pick this talkback handle for nothing. Bring it.
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I won't go the easy route and speculate why you pretend to me an aggressive alpha male while being a sci-fi geek living in your mom's basement. Let's go the other route and give you the benefit of a best case scenario: you're strong, tall and handsome, rich and successful and you're posting on a five thousand dollar laptop from your private jet while en route to Paris, or from your penthouse office where you oversee your successful company... and you still have nothing better to do at 5:00 AM on a Friday night than type naughty words at strangers you'll never meet. U R so TUFF!!! Bwah ha, I chortle in your direction. And you have the same name as Dustin Hoffman's character in Midnight Cowboy... ooh, that is so scary...
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I'm actually glad that Locke is 'really' dead...that's the one thing that bothered me about last season's final episode...they showed us 2 deaths---Locke and Jin (they even went so far as to have Locke's dead body as the final image of the season) and then they did a fake out and brought BOTH of them back alive this season...that was a cheat to me...dead should be dead, even on lost...they've never cheated us with deaths before and have never brought dead characters back to life and that's the way it should be...I forgive them for Jin but that's enough...Locke should be dead and I'm glad he really is...takes away from the emotional storytelling if you make the audience believe something only to change it later
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Here's the link to who I am.
http://tinyurl.com/for-real-dick
I aint rich, but I really dont live in anyones basement. I live my life as I want. -
I live in the Bronx. If you'd like to do anything besides hide behind the keyboard, I'll post my address.
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I called you out on your opinions, not your life.
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May 16, 2009 5:36:39 AM CDT
Hernán Cortés de Monroy y Pizarro, Marqués del Valle de Oaxaca
by macfaux
Sobering up from the Pub, was reading..
"We found two stone buildings of good workmanship, each with a flight of steps leading up to a kind of altar, and on those altars were evil-looking idols, which were their gods. Here we found five who had been sacrificed to them on that very night. Their chests had been struck open and their arms and thighs cut off, and the walls of these buildings were covered in blood. All this amazed us greatly, and we called this island: La Isla de Sacrificios, as it is now named on the charts, the Island of Sacrifices."
hmmpf. Did ya know that Cortés did not actually burn his ships or even scuttle them when he reached the new world..real story is Cortés had a viscious rival by the name of Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar, the then governor of the island de Cuba.When Don Diego Velázquez recalled Cortés expedition at the last moment. Cortés ignored the order. Instead, when he arrived in the New World he got wily and allied himself with the indigenous people, so that when the Governor sent 'others' to retrieve him...his extra forces were the difference in securing victory over those sent to capture him."When Cortes obtained his first boatload of treasure, he dispatched it to the king with three letters pleading his case for more power...
Among Cortes's own men were some of Velazquez's supporters who disapproved of Cortes's actions. They plotted to steal one of his ships to take a message of warning to Velazquez, who would then have time to overtake the treasure ship and seize the letters.
Cortes learned of the plot and captured the four ringleaders. He hanged two of them, cut the foot off another, and let the fourth, a clergyman, go free...who wandered the earth for lack of a better idea and his name was Ricardo Alperto (yeah, made that bit up) Cortés then ordered his nine ships run aground. According to John H. Coatsworth, director of Harvard's David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies, "Cortes beached the ships to prevent anyone from heading back to Cuba to report to the Spanish nobilities that he was engaged in an utterly unauthorized and illegal expedition. He was running for cover."
All this has happened before...Ah, España
*Saint James, son of Zebede aka Yaakov Ben-Zebdi...Did you know that in every language but English, James is Jacob. Jacobus became "Jacome" or "Jaime"; in Catalunya, it became Jaume, in western Iberia it became "Sant'Iago", from Yako of Hebrew Ya'akov/Jacob, which developed into "San Tiago" in Portugal and Galicia; San Tiago developed into "San Diego", which is, as Ron Burgundy tells us, German for 'a whale's vagina'Did you know that James brother was John the Apostle. Together known as the boanerges..the Sons of Thunder. That James tomb in Santiago de Compostela is the third holiest city in Christendom..he was a martyr ya know.
buenas noches y dias beeetchez -
Love the show but have the feeling that with only one season left that there is no way that everything can be explained. It's The Prisoner finale all over again feeling.
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I've been here since the beginning also. But I would not presume to claim ownership of this forum.
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i have no beef with u. I respect your residence on these talk backs. U know exactly who im talking about.
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Lost was the one pilot I had really been looking forward to since it was a JJ Abrams show, but as I said before it is extremely disappointing. It looks more like a bad TV movie version of the Jurassic Park series, only you don't know if there are dinosaurs. It begins with Matt Fox waking up from the plane crash and rescuing some people. There is a ridiculous scene where Fox begins to see a piece of the plane fall and underneath is what looks like Harry from AICN and a pregnant lady, but, BUT the catch is he is currently giving a woman CPR when he sees it start to fall. Instead of yelling over "Hey get out of the way," he somehow manages to revive the woman and then run over to Harry and the Pregnant Lady and still save both right before the plane piece falls. Next we have Greg Grunberg's cameo, because what is a JJ Abrams piece without him? He gets eaten by some unseen force and then we see the group hop from the plane and run from this thing. They make it back without any deaths and the next group goes into jungle to try and radio for help from high ground. This group comes across a loud noise and you see something moving through the jungle charging right at them (this is seen in the previews), one of the guys pulls out a gun and shoots at the target. The thing falls over right before it reaches the group and it is revealed the animal was a polar bear. Yes a polar bear in the middle of the jungle. A polar bear! Huh? What? At this point I was ready to give up but made it through the rest. Maybe it will get better, but I don't see that happening. Such a shame too.
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I'd assume you're talking about the crazies with their insane theories without any basis in what has been presented on the show. Hope so. For that, I see no reason for there to be any animosity between you and NapoleanPark. Hope it gets cleared up.
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May 16, 2009 6:05:16 AM CDT
May 28th, 2004 - 07:37:12 PM -the above was a first LOST review
by macfaux
And there was Napoleon Park barking thus:
"As for "The Lost" or "Land Of The Lost" or whatever it's called, wasn't there already a syndicated series based on "The Lost World?" Although Polar Jungle Bears is a genius idea if JJ's going in some sort of post-ironic satire direction with it. We'll see.***** The alphabet net blew it in 2003-2004 with Karen Sisco, The DA and Line Of Fire (final episode of the latter Sunday night, by the way) but they still have Alias (new writers, less time between episodes in 2005!) and NYPD:Blue (just one show, not a franchise!) plus the huge tit party that is "Less Then Perfect", so don't write ABC off yet."
Of course ya also had someone named 'cornstalker' opine..."too bad about LOST..sounds kinda lame. at least we still have alias. sydney bristow is the best."
And the wisdom of 'zandra'..."First Bitches-take that-Lost will suck just like Alias does now!!SEACREST OUT!!!"
...sigh. -
I thought Nappy had all his posts deleted when he was banned? I know all of mine have disappeared. Twice over.
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that is what i am typin about...funny how the person above missed it.
how bout that. what a dumby that person must be. -
...that he is had LOST..pegged as his Numero uno show for 2004! Herc knows good..Well Herc knows food. That is all I am typin. Really. i mean it this time.
Published on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 8:24am
THE NEXT SEASON!! Coax
"Every summer, all summer long, thousands of e-mails. What looks good this coming season? Where’s the the next “Gilmore Girls,” the next “Gideon’s Crossing,” the next “24,” the next “Alias,” the next “Firefly,” the next “Wonderfalls”?
Here then, preemptively, are the ten new series to which Herc is, at the moment, most looking forward:
01) LOST
02) Medium
03) Global Frquency
04) House
05) Athens
06) The Jury
07) Fleet Street (Boston Legal)
08) Dr. Vegas (...snicker)
09) Life as we Know it
10) Jack & Bobby
Herc had 'Desperate Housewives' as a wild card almost made the list pick...If me math is right (and I like to think it is) Herc was / is battin .400 there. That will play in the Bigs, in the Show. Teddy Ballgame's detached frozen head nods in agreement. -
Next year they will make contact with Claire. She will have stories to tell, help the Losties in a significant way then at the end of the episode they find her body in the wreckage of the house.
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When I read this theory here, I felt it was too wild and personally had difficulty accepting it. But thinking back to all that has happened since the series' start, the evidence and symbolism is just too damn strong leaning to Jack not ever having been the original Jack Sheppard we have seen in flashbacks set before the crash of 815. Jacob handing the Apollo candy bar to Jack... Jack being told on more than one occasion he is a leader of people... Locke looking for Jacob in the cabin but finding Jack's father and Jack's sister instead... Jack sabotaging The Swan station which will lead to Flight 815 crashing in 2004 -- this seems to parallel Esau-Locke setting up things so that Locke would get killed by Ben so Esau could then assume Locke's image.The question I asked myself: Is "Jacob" really dead? And will he return next season and in what form? I would say we haven't seen the last of Jacob.Additionally, time is likely irrelevant to these "energies" (the light and the dark), so Jacob might have already set things up so he has another host. It appears really, really strong that Jack is already Jacob. What other character could the essence of Jacob be -- especially one who contrasts John Locke in that Yin-Yang way?
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While it has not been officially seen in the episodes, Smokey has been confirmed by the creators as turning into the Island’s different manifestations. If you just watched the show, I think one would still find the evidence convincing. Needless to say, I’m sure they WILL show Smokey transforming into a person one of these days.
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and let me start by saying "no offence" if you're one of those deeply religious types, coz I know there are still plenty of you out there - but what it all comes down to is metaphors...
stories...
there's a very good reason nobody has invented any new religions in these here Digital times (and no Scientology does not count) and that reason is technology (yeah Science, sure, but specifically TECHNOLOGY)
back in the day the state-of-the-art was Word Of Mouth, maybe stone tablets if you were among the privileged (you could read/write), parchment or papyrus if you were high tech - but for the MASSES it was Word of Mouth and if you were a common peasant and you wanted to know something about the world, Religion was your Google...
-and what you got was stories - metaphors and analogies to make it easier for you to remember and also increase the likelihood that the information would be preserved when you passed it on...
Print was invented so The Bible could be printed (still outsells everything else) and as McFoe has been trying to point out in his.. er.. way... Science was invented so that Man could better understand God. The Scientific Method is enshrined in The Koran.
ok so - back to Lost - all those people crying because they don't want Religion in their TV shows (and yes I thought the BSG ending sucked too, but only because Douglas Adams did it first) you gotta remember that Religion itself is, basically (again, no offence) just a bunch of stories and no story is particularly original, when you come down to it - shit even the Religious ones keep eating each other and getting recycled into other stories...
Personally I don't think Lost is particularly religious - sure it borrows and pays homage and whatever, but is it even all that Supernatural really?
Someone above mentioned the game of Backgammon from S1 and you know that's actually not such a bad metaphor for what's going on - beyond just the black/white thing. Backgammon is a game of strategy (although there is also an element of chance) and at times pieces can be banished from the board and under some circumstances unable to return to the game for a long time. Also (and maybe this is a stretch) sometimes when you roll certain dice you HAVE TO play them a certain way - the ONLY way - and you cannot CHOOSE to not play them that way. It's in the Rules and like I said, makes for a nice metaphor.
Most importantly, people don't usually play just one game. The outcome of a single game is not in and of itself an End - it is simply Progress towards the actual End, of the round or tournament...
ok maybe that's a stretch? I just wanted to make the point they may not necessarily be going in the direction of Gods with this - at least not LITERALLY... -
anyone who's seen John Carpenter's Dark Star knows the two do not mix!
let there be light -
when i first paused the episode and checked out the tapestry in detail, i noticed that, too. however, looking at it again, i'm still pretty sure that it's just the design of the legs. you can see that the little Mr. Game-And-Watches are all posed differently depending on their proximity to the center, and those directly underneath are kneeling/sitting cross-legged. it'd be cool as shit if what we're looking at actually represents a wheelchaired man, but i think it's just a result of the way the figures' legs are drawn/woven.
still absorbing everyone's counter-arguments on the smokey tip. i never intended to state that my theory was absolutely correct, but at the time of my postings yesterday, a few TBers were simply dismissing it without any kind of retort... which is what i look for when i come to these boards in the first place to discuss things.
and chill the fuck out, rizzo. you're not the smoke monster of these fucking talkbacks. TBers like you are the reason i rarely bother posting here in the first place. this fraternal fanboy attitude of yours has been, is, and always will be pathetic. if there's anything more ridiculous than making threats in a chat room, it's being territorial about a fucking chat room in the first place. nobody's looking for you to respect their "credentials." we're talking about a tv show that we all watch, not the size of our dicks.but since you're asking, we've actually discussed Lost before, you and i... this is just my new post-ban monicker. of course, you wouldn't know that, because you're not an admin or a psychic or anyone who might be reasonably equipped to hand out 'respect' for one's 'credentials' with any idea of what they're actually talking about, so shove your little tin star right back up your ass. the validity of one's theories is not measured by page hits. -
Sory it took so long for me to respond, I went out and just read your response a minute ago. Also, I just glanced over what has been said since then so if this has already been covered to death, my apologies. I am truly sorry for the things that have hapened in your life and to your mother. Two years after being "saved" my father went out on my mother as well. He left her in financial ruin and the only way she kept the house was my brother and i stepping up to the plate and hurting ourselves by helping her. Hey, it was mom, you do that shit, right? The point is, these thingas happen. We are animals, we tend to forget that in a wave of ego and self-importance. Yes, there are terrible ntural disasters on this planet. As a matter of fact, they are crucial to the existence of this planet. Plates shifting, earthquakes, volcanoes, they are the reason that we now have the continents the way that we do, they shaped our world. So, being that God granted nature free will to shape a liveable planet he continues to let nature exercise her free will and natural order to this day. Look, people die, terrible things happen in this world. This world that WE, not God, but WE have fashioned for ourselves is a fucked up, horrible place. Yet, out of the ashes of tragedy rises the greatest part of the human spirit. When you hear awe inspiring, jaw-dropping stories of what some people give back to this world, it always seems to rise up out of tragedy. People who you would never believe give a damn about anything give incredibly of themselves in response to the terrible things that happen on this planet. My point is, there's a perspective. My mother and father were pretty introverted, not a big social life. Yet, two years after starting to go to church, he runs out on her. If this would have happened two years before, she would have just wallowed in her own misery, but because she now had a network of support, she built lifelong powerful friendships with the people that God had provided in her life. Coincidence? Perhaps. But the world is chock full of these coincidences; Christians know about them. We hear these stories every day that prove the existe3nce of God. Stories that maybe a secular world doesn't understand, doesn't want to believe. You see, Ender, you said it yourself; once you were beaten a little bit by this world, your "REFUSED" to believe. You made an outward act of rebellion to a ntaural feeling that you had never doubted before. You chose to stop believing. You denied what was in your heart. It's conceited and prideful to believe that once you accept Christ, this world that has proven itself top be evil all your life will all of a sudden not be evil just for you. Your system of belief has no bearing on what this world has in store for you and it's silly to believe that it soes. Why would God protect you from the hardships and pain of life? What good would that do; how would that show him that you can perservere and withstand trouble and pain yet still remian firm in your faith? All it would do is make you weak. As Paul sat in his prison cell about to be murdered for teaching the message of Christ, he wrote to Timothy, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race." He kept his faith with death in his face. Perhaps Jesus said it best in John 16:33, "In this world you will have trouble but take heart; I have overcome the world." God came down to earth and willingly was mocked, spit on, tortured, flogged, and murdered in a public setting. Yet we have the audacity to question the existence of God because of a tornado? Becuase someone uses the free will that God gave them and does evil? Come on. And to all of those who balked at my comments about Strobel's books. Yes, prove was a strong word. How about present an incredible, impenetrable mountain of evidence that anyone with an open mind would have no ability to intelligently argue without sounding like a fool. The funny thing is, I usually wouldn;t recommend his books to anyone, believers or non-believers because it takes faith out of the equation. The evidence is that convincing
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I apologize for that rant....now back to Lost.
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Classy, rizzo. You are acting like a prick with an inferiority complex. Get over yourself.
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a scrap of evidence to add to the "UnLocke DOES have Locke's memories" column:
As they're resting at the old camp, he approaches Ben and says, "did you notice what's behind you?" and it was the blown-off hatch door. He then said, "that's where you and i first met." -
How about this line from the first scene...
"It only ends once. Everything before that is just...progress."
What does that mean exactly? It's a pretty cryptic statement, and I'm not sure if it hints at a Mobius Strip type universe, where it folds on itself, or if it hints at a true ending to events, where everything before is just an experiment. It's a fairly deep sentiment, that on first hearing it didn't exactly make sense. But it has stuck with me as seeming very wise in a way also. It hit a nerve. What do you guys think this could mean? Do you think it has significance on things to come? Or just a philosophical counter? -
Dude, I have refrained thus far from engaging in this discussion as it is only tangential to Lost, but Strobel is one of the worst apologists out there. If you want to harp on someone, harp on William Lane Craig. That guy is a master debater. Strobel is shit. In fairness to the other side, you should check out the rebuttal to Strobel’s “Case for Christ” on infidels.org. Just google anything for criticisms of Strobel. You’ll find that he presents at best a strawman argument. The “evidence” is weak.
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It’s too cryptic to even try and deconstruct. When I first heard it, my immediate interpretation was: “There is some endgame here, perhaps establishing a utopian society or paradise. The Island would then be some sort of experiment. So far, every set of castaways has failed…but each time Jacob gets closer and closer to winning this experiment/wager/bet with Esau.”
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http://tinyurl.com/cvljnk
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Figured that went without saying.
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I'm on your boat, but I do have to point out that it would've been quite easy for un-Locke to know something like that that had happened on the island so recently.
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Just wanted to say that while some of your words do come across as a little brusk and I may disagree with you on some points I don't want to attack you at all. You have been a constant here even longer then I have and I respect you for that. It is hard to hear you bash something that I enjoy a lot and I said my bit in defending it. You could also watch how you come across. But reguardless I respect & thank you, for all that you have given at Room 23 and here. So lets agree to disagree and move on to other discussions.
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and whether he has Locke's memories... just contributing a bit of evidence i'd been pondering over myself.
but you're right, he could very easily have known about that... and virtually anything else that's occurred on the island, for that matter. -
and him having the memories of those he impersonates, I think that has more to do with the individual in question. I think the dead on the island are forced to chose Jacob or Esau and thus sometimes the entity doesn't know anything about the person he is impersonating. For instance, Locke is obviously with Jacob. I think Alex would be pretty easy to confuse, especially considering how she died, so Esau used her to communicate with/chastise Ben. Obviously she was giving him access to her memories at that point as they were popping up all around Ben.
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It's not that religion hasn't been present in the show before, guys.It's the shift in tone. In the past, Locke always came off in the reality of the show as a bit of a nut. "We're all here for a purpose, to fulfill some higher power's plan," he would say. "And you're full of ****, Locke," Jack and Sawyer would reply.I always liked that, because it suggested that what people see as religious experience can be attributed to naturally-occurring phenomena (in the world of the show - as, in my opinion, in real life).Now, though - we're getting concrete proof there really are people of cosmic power manipulating everything, controlling the "looms of fate" and "destiny" and "drawing" travellers to their island to judge humanity in some kind of cosmic game. That stuff is EVIDENT from the season finale, and leads me to the conclusion the whole show will be explained away as being "all about God."However, I actually also believe that, given the pedigree of LOST, they will totally pussy out in the end with a ton of worthless dialogue like ... "Was it God, John? Was it? Or was it you who destroyed this place? Do humans make their own tragic destinies - or are they written in the stars? I leave that for you to decide, gentlemen - but remember ... I'll be watching." That kind of cutesy bull**** fake philosophy has been creeping into LOST more and more as it drifts away from a man-made explanation which I loved (humans trying to shorthand scientific discovery create massive catastrophe only people can undo) to characters like Ben essentially going all WAITING FOR GODOT saying "I waited to see you - I prayed to see you - and you never came, God! You never came!" It stank of the BSG trend so common in modern science fiction: "Our concepts are too abstract for noncreative minds to get - but if we say 'It's all GOD DOIN' IT AND DOIN' IT AND DOIN' IT RIGHT' people will smile and nod, 'cuz that God there can do anything!"
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are aliens. Really, it wouldn't even piss me off too bad. Think about it: the aliens land their ship and disguise it as a temple, a result of mimicing the locals. Eventually, the humans screw them somehow and they move the ship and disavow humanity. But the Jacob one changes his mind and instigates more contact. From this point on it becomes a game to see who can manipulate the most people to their side, culminating in Esau convincing Ben to betray Jacob. If you want to throw Atlantis in, sure. The aliens built an advanced city and the humans fucked it up. The aliens pitted them against each other and moved it when the war was over, hence the idea that it sank; what else could be true of a disapearing island? Probably not where this is going, but I would rather see this than get a six year sermon.
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If they are one and the same I don't see why he wouldn't have access to memories. Smokey can apparently read thoughts and project them, which we have seen.
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Yes, Locke was always seen by the Losties as a bit of a nut. However, the Losties were not privy to a ton of information concerning Locke. Think about it, a paralyzed John Locke stood up and walked. Only Locke knew that...well. Rose knew it too. Also, locke started to lose that ability to walk whenever his faith was stirred and whenever he wasnt going along with a master plan. Now, at this point we don't know if it was the Island's plan, Jacob's, or the guy we're calling Esau. The point is, the entity that healed him was willing to take that gift back if Locke didn't follow the plan. Also, we know that very ear;y on, ocke looked into the eye of the Island. At this point, we still don't know for sure but it's a safe bet that he faced down Smokey. There are many other things that have appened to locke that he withheld from everybody. If Locke would have had the trust to tell everybody all of these things that DID ACTUALLY HAPPEN, perhaps he wouldn;t ave been seenas crazy at all. It's also important that Rose, who was healed by the Island as well, was also strong in faith when everyone else thought she was nuts. She held on and waited despite all evidence pointing to the fact that her husband was dead. She never for one second beleived that and until Bernard showed up, everyone looked at her as a little coo-coo for cocoa puffs. I believe that the writers have stated that everything when its all said and done will be able to be explained with science. Not that these explanations will be right, just that there will be plausible explanations. God and faith have always been a big part of Lost, always looming right below the surface. When the first two seasons were airing a lot of people looked to that backgammon scene as foreshadowing what was to happen. I still think it's going to come down to Locke and Walt even if Locke isn't Locke anymore. However, it is strange that for five years most fans have been talking about this show and stating that the Island wants this or thee Island orchestrated that. People have talked about this Island as a living organism for years without batting an eye. Yet, when the discussion moves to God perhaps orchestrating something, people cry oul? People, this is fiction, it is a television show. We can't accept all these things that could never happen in reality and then shout, "What are they doing? God's not real!!" when God looks like He could be involved in the mix. It doesn't make sense. Suspension of belief, science fiction, this has always been our show. Whatever is introduced into the show is introduced into the show's FICTION. It doesn't matter if God really exists in our reality for Him to exist in this show. Right?
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that I remember hearing that the producers stated that there was going to be a practical real world explanation of what is going on vs. some sort of "light" vs "dark" chess game - including the smoke monster. So, I am thinking that a black hole is involved and I think that Jacob is future Aaron who somehow traveled back in time and is basically "stuck" in a time loop. The events that we are witnessing is the trial and error process of correcting his future self’s destiny. The same way that people cannot die (like Michael and his gun) until they are ready to Jacob cannot die (in the past). I think the smoke monster is a way of the universe course correcting events. As events are changed in the past the smoke monster corrects (or un-corrects?) them rather than someone just disappearing and not existing. I still want to know where the “whispering” is coming from and the appearance of dead people. Maybe they are from the corrected future because they did not ultimately die and are basically just waiting for the entire time loop to be fixed. I think there is great relevance in why Jacob physically touched Jack, Hurley, Kate etc. in the flashbacks in the finally. I think by doing so he made it possible for them to time travel and find him.. “they are coming”? Remember the video with the bunnies? How the scientist guy freaked out and said something about that they could not touch? What if Locke is dead and alive at the same time.. we know that if they travel back in time they can see there former selves.
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I'm all for aliens
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Pointing out a few details that might have been done differently... or better... isn't the same as turning into a h8ter.
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"Hello class. I'm your substitue art teacher Mr. Esaw. your regular teacher Mr. Jacobs is feelins a little stabbed to death today.Todays material is going to be a cloud of black smoke - greasy black soot and smoke and ash suspended in a mass of hot gases the size of a freight train. Your assignment will be to remove the hot gasses, reduce the smoke to a pile of black soot, then transform it into a flexible solid and create a life sized ultra-realistic animated sculpture of a horse. Without losing any of it's mass. Oh yeah, a WHITE horse."Malestorm: "Uh, can we say that the soot and ash solid particles of the smoke thing are actually electromegnetically charged animated shape shifting, color changing nanobots?"Mr. Esaw: "No."Huggy: "Uh, can we say it's Magick?"Mr. Esaw: "I'd rather you didn't."Johnnyboy: "What is the smoke thing is a physical manifestation of some ancient Egyptian demigod?"Mr. Esaw: "Yeah, sure, whatever. Go with that."
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How was juliet "grabbed"?Sci-fi answer: The chain was magnetically charged by the electromagnetic release of the incident when the bubble or pocket of vast enery was released. It was pulled towards the hole, struck her in the hip, wrapped around her lags and then the magnetically charged links adhered to each other, forming a bond to strong to be released.The fantasy answer: It was magic; the Island wanted her.
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How did Juliet survive, why didn't the bomb trigger explode on contact?Sci-fi answer: The pit was lined with soft mud; the metal objects passed through an area of magnetic flux which slowed their fall, laying them gently on the bottom of the pit.(and who among us doesn't want to lay Juliet gently in the bottom of the pit, am I right rude-boys?)Fantasy answer; it was magic.
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I've never listened to a podcast of Lost in my entire life. Love the show, I generally dislike podcasts (Well, okay, Kevin Smith's Smodcasts are fairly fun, but that's it.) BUT, as I said before, all of the information is provided ON THE SHOW that both Yemi and Alex were manifestations of Smokey. It basically goes person there, then smokey there, with dialogue to indicate that, yes, this person is Not What They Are. I mean, Yemi run off, Smoke monster come back. Smoke monster show up, show pictures of Alex, then Alex shows up, Alex walks out of frame and you hear a fucking "Whoosh" sound. This is like a two second Colombo episode. It is not hard to figure out.
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Mr. Esaw: very good job on the horses, class. Todays follow up assignment is to use the same materials - the solid particulates from a freight train sized cloud of black smoke. Condense them to a semi-sold and make a life-sized animated replica of a teenaged boy capable speech and of recognizing the personn it's talking to."Huggy:"Uh, a horse has a larger mass than a human. does it have to be actual life size, or can it be a little larger, then look life size using perspective tricks by seeing it from a distance, like from the bottom of a pit. you know, can it be a little taller than normal?"Mr. Esaw: "I ask you to take charred black filth and make a realistic human animatronic, and getting the scale right is your main concern?"Huggy: "Us, sure, the rest I can explain with Egyptian mythology, right?"
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Mystery solved!
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Why didn't the bomb explode until the fourth rock strike?[By the way, a shout out to whoever it was who replied to my question from the last talkbalk about "who on the island knows how to detonate a hydrogen bomb?" with the Bugs Bunny "hit it on the nose with a mallet" answer. Dang, you got it right, or at least pretty close.]Why four hits? Sci fi answer: The rock Juliet grabbed was rich with metallic ore minerals and was magnetically charged by the electromagnetic flux of The Incident. So was the H-bomb trigger. As you recall, objects with a like magnetic force repel. she was hitting the positively charged end of the bomb with the positively charged side of the rock. for the fourth hit, either she turned the rock around and hit it with the negative side, or the magnetic charge was dissipating so that the force didn't diffuse the impact.Fantasy answer: it was magic because The Island didn't want the bomb to explode until it did.
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What is Mr. Esau provided the secret recipe for Hurley's special Garlic Sauce? Then it would be Mr. Esau's Mystery Sauce.Mystery solved!
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the alien idea. You can used anicet artifacts and religious overtones towards whats been transpiring on the island.
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Remember how everyone used to assume the Island had an intellect and a persona capable of it's own motivations and actions? The Island cures people, the island wants this, the Island won't let you die, the Island wants you back, etc. Let's go with that. whether "the Island" is an ancient Egyptian demigod or mythical/mystical being or a self-motivated alien space ship super-computer, whatever, let's assume a vast intellect is at work.Then at the end of "The Incident" (the episode, not the event) there were THREE powers working, either in tandem or in conflict.The Island, which heals and survives. The sudden release of the pocket of vast electromagnetic energy. And the explosion of the hydrogen bomb fuse.So let's say The Island used the Electromagnetic energy to absorb and focus the detonation, pulling the explosive impact DOWN (explaining why the Dharma area survives to become New Otherton), then funnels or channels the power of the explosion through the islands subterranean tunnels and releasing it upwards in one specific isolated location: destroying the statue (except for one "very nice foot").Now lets say that as an object of worship the statue or idol was charged with faith based particulates and sentient mythical energy. The destruction of the statue releases that persona.What is created by the destructive force of an explosion? Fire (heat and light), Smoke and Ash.So the blast is the white light seen at the end of the episode. the destruction of the statue produces both the Smoke Monster and the Ash capable of holding an entity in a cabin (or perhaps keeping something out like a security fence?)Short recap: The explosion from The Incident turned The Statue into The Smoke Monster.Pure speculation, a complete crackpot theory, but, hey, all the cool kids are doing it.
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yeah, if esau/smokey actually are one and the same, he'd have access to almost everyone's thoughts/memories....
i really enjoyed esau's response to jacob's "you'll have to ask them when they get here"...
"i don't have to ask... you brought them here." it feeds into my theory that he's also smokey, and that he can read minds.
then again, if viewed from a certain angle, pretty much everything feeds into my esau/smokey theory. -
"As for his character, O'Quinn says he's really gone. Locke's dead body was rolled out of a metal box toward the end of the two-hour episode, baffling islanders who had been following a Locke imposter. Exactly who is now occupying Locke's body wasn't revealed. O'Quinn said it would be "a good guess" to assume it's a man seen with the infamous Jacob in the beginning of the episode." ""I think, unfortunately, I think it's ended for Locke. But I'm still there, as far as I know," O'Quinn said. "I don't know how it's going to end for this other guy. I'm sad. I miss John Locke, poor guy. He was a pawn."
"O'Quinn is gearing up to play a new character when the sixth season begins next year. As for the rest of the story line, he swears he has no idea." ""Your guess is honestly as good as mine is," he said. "There's going to be some confrontation that will somehow, I'm guessing, have to do with Jack or Locke or something like that. I think these guys are just setting up good and evil. It's the way Locke said in the very beginning of the show: One is light and one is dark. Two sides. I think that's what we've got."
To sum up: Locke is dead, new guy from the opener is pretending to be Locke, the struggle is between light and dark.
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http://www.goupstate.com/ or here: http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2009/05/terry-oquinn-on-lockes-future.html
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I just saw something that made me clinch a fist and crush my sandwich.
Go to the scene in the finale where they approach the foot statue and Alpert says "It's where he (Jacob) lives." And in the next shot where you see their backs you see a faint CGI Smokey McSmokemonster-esque puff of smoke come off the top of Locke/Esau/Jacob's Rival's head.
Just look at it, and remember you heard it here first. -
bad show people, baaad show. move along now, nothing to see here. plus why the fuck is Medusa in this show anyway? J.J is outta his mind, oh wait was that a spoiler i just said? oh fuck me. hehe couldnt help it, its already out there anyway.
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Case closed. If some of you are going to stop watching LOST because Locke is dead, go right ahead. Turn off the TV and go stick your head in the toilet. Heheh j/k
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I only take exception with this part: "who is now occupying Locke's body?"NOBODY is occupying, inhabiting or possessing Locke's body. Locke's dead body has been in the metal shipping crate ever since it was removed from his coffin. NotLocke/UnLocke is an imposter, a shape changer, a trickster spirit - call it Smokey or Mystery Sauce or whoever. It is an entity that has taken the shape and form (and voice) of the late John Locke. It has NOT taken possession of his physical body, which was in the box all along.Bilboe, rest assured I'm quibbling with the article, not you. But all this nonsense about Locke being possessed or reanimated and inhabited has to be snuffed out now, otherwise Locke's body would have to be in two places at once.recap: Locke - on box. UnLocke - not Locke, someone/something posing as him.
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great response there. Whether or not God exists, the show is fictional, just like star trek deals with fictional aliens or LOTR deals with fictional hobbits. Whether or not aliens or hobbits are real has no real bearing on us enjoying it on a TV show. The atheists seriously cramp up and literally shake because they absolutely can't take even a hint of divine intervention in a story. Perhaps BSG jaded them, but LOST has been hinting, winking, and preparing for this. Accept a higher power on LOST, whether it is God or the island, within the context of the show, not your atheistic worldview. Its a damn TV show.
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O'Quinn hasn't seen the finale, and he's correct in all the things that involve him: he's no longer playing a Locke character on the show, and is prepping to play a brand new one for season 6. The part about how Esau impersonates someone really isn't up to him, so I forgive him on his misunderstanding.
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I thought he ROCKED in the finale, and was a hero, and brave and courageous, and I think he reset the timeline and saved Jacob's life, inadvertently. Obviously he's on the wrong side (fake-Locke) but he'll figure it out.
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Esau the Anti-Jacob did to his friend Locke and kick his ass HARD. I'm not sure if he can kill him, because what is light without dark, blah blah LEGEND speech by Tim Curry blah blah. Anyways we saw Jacob get killed so why not Esau?
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If I wasn't being clear the last few days, I wasn't denying that the telepathic imposter posing as dead friends = Smokey the Monster = Mr. "Mystery Sauce" Esau. I wasn't denying it, I was asking for proof used on the show.Now, as John Locke once said, "I'm going to have to watch that again". The evidence about Yemi and Alex is persuasive, but not actual proof. if UnLocke is shown giving off smoke, that could be the PROOF I was asking for. And wasn't there people complaining that Darlton provided "you'll know what the smoke monster is by the end of this season"? Well, solid proof that Smokey is the entity that's been posing as dead friends would be a huge clue. They may not have spelled out yet if the smoke monster is nanobotic, a security device, spiritual, a mythical entity or whatever, but clearly establishing that Christian/white horse/tall Walt/wet backwards talking Walt/Christian off island/ Libby, etc are the shape shifting smoke monster is certainly a step in the right direction. I'll rewatch and look for "Smoking NotLocke".
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but he doesnt want you to know that, he wants you to believe that you are God.
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If they've nailed down that smokey is Mystery Sauce is Christian is NotLocke is all returning dead friends... does that mean that Hurley's halucinations/visions of Charlie and Mr. Eko were also the imposter/trickster?Because if the whole show is a parable about mystic forces playng a huge game, does it foreshadow anything that Hugo is a better chess player than Esauce?"That's checkmate in three moves, Mr. Eko."
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We hardly knew ye
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May 16, 2009 2:35:55 PM CDT
"you're not supposed to raise him" "don't you dare bring him bac
by billboefett
And we now see why.
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"...if there's a firearm visible on the set in the first act, it must -- by definition -- be used before the end of the play."And, I know that since this will be the last season, it isn't exactly like the body was brought on in the "first act". I agree, Billboe, that you have provided much evidence on why John Locke is dead (esp. the O'Quinn thing), but I still don't see why the body that is on the beach can't be used by some entity to inhabit it (although that still leaves actuall Locke kaput).I'm not really trying to argue the point, its just all this talk of Jack not being Jack, smokie existing as different forms on and off the island, dead people talking to living one, and such, makes my head spin.
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the body was brought in 2 years ago at the end of season 3 in a casket. Dead is dead. Ben did not expect Locke to rise. No one has ever seen the island resurrect someone. You're not supposed to raise him. Don't you dare bring him back. It was all there.
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Spoiler if you haven't seen the movies or read the books. I knew someone who swore after the 5th book that because they killed off Sirus Black that he wouldn't read any of the last two books. Im not sure if he actually did that, but if he did he missed out on what I think was the best part of the series. Sure it sucks that Locke might be gone, but I have faith that bigger & better things are in store for us and that Darlton will give us all of the important answers by this time next year.
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Let's say that Jacob and the mysterious man in black alternately known as Seesaw, Ebob, Bojak or Mystery Sauce are roughly equivelant entities of similar powers and abilities. They may be stranded aliens, they masy be manifestations of ancient mythical deities. Let's say they both have the same super-powers: change form, take the appearance and voices of the dead, turn into a cloud of black smoke. Or, as has been suggested, one into smoke, the other into light.More importantly, all along it's been assumed theat the smoke monster was the inate entity. The Smoke Monster poses as Christian, the horse, UnLocke... The planet Earth does not support any living, thinking smoke clouds. The closest we hae are vast algae ponds and city-wide underground fungal growths. So lets say that the smoke monster is another form these alien or mystical beings can assume. So it's not "the monster turns into people" but "Jacob and eSauce turn into people, animals and the form of the smoke monster". But what is it that takes the form of Jacob and eSauce?
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During it's first season, before skidding off the rails, the TV series Heroes was a media darling. with it's cell phone game and on line graphic novels and other tie-ins, it was grabbing some of Lost's multi-media phenomenon buzz. In fans sites some people (like me) chose to enjoy both shows for the different things they were, while others felt the need to pick one over the other.ABC and the producers and writers of Lost were apparently aware of the pressure they were under from their "competition". As a result they took a perfectly good character driven drama with sci-fi elements and veered of further into hard sci-fi fantasy.Heroes weakest link was it's abysmal grasp of how time travel stories have to be structured. Lost just spent a season proving they know how to do time travel right - heck, just the Hurley/Miles conversations proved that.But that wasn't enough, they had to start introducing super-powers to the show. I quote Hurley v. Miles: "You're just jealous becsue my power is better than yours."And now with Jacob and Mystery Sauce they have two super-heroes - or a super-hero and a super-villain. They are either aliens (Martian Manhunter) or mythological deities (Thor), and their superpowers are to shape-shift into the appearance (and voice) of dead humans, telepathy so they can pluck images from peoples minds and the ability to turn into a cloud of smoke capable of great speed and vast strehgth. With an apparent Kryptonite-like weakness concerning electromagnetism - i.e. the security fence.Does anyone else think that Lost has been trying to outdo Heroes for the last season? The sad thing is, Heroes has fallen so far it was hardly worth the effort.
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sounds like you're trying to compromise with someone in the talkback? Dude.. just hold your own, be passionate about what you believe and set out to prove it, unless you're proven wrong. Be bold my friend, and drink Dos Equis.
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So when ghosty dream image Claire told Kate "don't you dare bring him back, you're not supposed to raise him," we were misled to assume that she was talking aobut Aaron, but she actually meant don;t bring Locke back, don't try to raise him from the dead. Fascinating. That's the sort of thing I read these talk-backs looking for. That and the Juliet Red-blouse observation. Well, off to go rewatch The Incident with an eye pealed for "Smokin' Locke".
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Okay, let's just say...
Let's say that Jacob and the mysterious man in black alternately known as Seesaw, Ebob, Bojak or Mystery Sauce are roughly equivalent entities of similar powers and abilities. They may be stranded aliens, they may be manifestations of ancient mythical deities. Let's say they both have the same super-powers: change form, take the appearance and voices of the dead, turn into a cloud of black smoke. Or, as has been suggested, one into smoke, the other into light.This raises two questions: Why should we accept that they are human or even humanoid? They might be protoplasmic, they could be beings of pure energy. We have no proof that Jacob and ManInBlack, as seen in the opening scene of The Incident, are their native appearances. In fact, based on their abilities, we should assume that these are bodies and voices of the dead that they are imitating. That's what they do.More importantly, all along it's been assumed that the smoke monster was the inate entity. The Smoke Monster poses as Christian, the horse, UnLocke... The planet Earth does not support any living, thinkng smoke clouds. The closest we have are vast algae ponds and city-wide underground fungal growths. So lets say that the smoke monster is another form these alien or mystical beings can assume. So it's not "the monster turns into people" but "Jacob and eSauce turn into people, animals and the form of the smoke monster".But who or what turned into the form of Jacob and eSauce? -
Lindelof said season 6's plot has been written for about 5 years now and I believe him. Season 1 was made up as it went until about the 4th episode in, and then they sat down and started thinking about the ending of the entire series. Time travel has been in the DNA of the show from the first season with the Adam and Eve skeletons and Sayid picking up 1940s radio with his walkie-talkie. LOST had viral games and has had more games than Heroes has. LOST won tons of emmys its first season and Heroes hasn't. LOST has had multiple emmy nominations for actors and shows over its long run and Heroes hasn't. Heroes has steadily declined since season 2, and LOST hasn't. LOST is #2 among 18-49 and finished behind American Idol. Heroes.. hasn't. Heroes will probably not be back for another season, LOST had so much respect and trust that it bargained for 3 seasons free of cancellation ahead of time to finish out the show. Nuff said.
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Claire told Kate "don't you dare bring him back" she never once said Aaron. Hurley told Jack "Charlie said you're not supposed to raise him... do you think he was talking about Aaron??" was the other clue, and very obvious. If it was only Aaron, why would the writers have him say that.. who else could Jack supposedly "raise" unless the word "raise" meant something other than "child-rear". Matt Mitovtich of TV-Guide's GETTING LOST asked Darlton if "you're not supposed to raise him" and "don't you dare bring him back" refer to Locke. And they both smiled gleefully and looked surprised and kind of squirmed and said they were impressed and that it was a clever theory and they had no comment.
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I never set out to prove that Smokey wasn't Christian or UnLocke. I was asking, was there any conclusive proof to back up that supposition. As pointed out, the Yemi and Al