Ballard's investigation leads him to the agoraphobic designer of the Dollhouse (guest star Alan Tudyk), and the story of "Sleeping Beauty" foreshadows Echo's future, while allowing her to help a young girl deal with her traumatic past. Adelle goes to the attic in search of answers, while Alpha reveals himself and sets his game in motion. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Alan Tudyk as Stephen Kepler; Miracle Laurie as Mellie/November; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Aisha Hinds as Loomis; Hannah Leigh Dworkin as Susan; Judith Moreland as Renee.Investigate their purpose. The third flower is green. 9 p.m. Friday. Fox.
May 1, 2009, 3:23 a.m. CST
that she is your "penultimate" girlfriend.
May 1, 2009, 3:26 a.m. CST
http://tinyurl.com/cqcdzq <br><br> Now back to your regularly scheduled House of Dolls talkback...
May 1, 2009, 3:26 a.m. CST
Felt a bit like old 70s mystery TV. One scene even made me think of Columbo. But I still liked it. I really want to see this show get another season, but it's not looking good.
May 1, 2009, 3:31 a.m. CST
I know you probably won't read this, but I must say...I do have immense respect, brutha. You don't get your TB for SN, and you don't 'take-over' a TB by insulting the show it's in...just take the space to talk about the show you love and don't get the TB for. More power to ya'. You've gotten some shit here and a few other places, but I got much love. I just finished S1 of SN (which was RIDICULOUSLY amazing! I'm trying to recommend it to friends now), otherwise I'd join ya' in the Zone. Go in peace, sir.
May 1, 2009, 3:32 a.m. CST
Looks a little more active these days. Nice. But still not enough chaos and maybe a few too many cooks. I'll check it out.
May 1, 2009, 3:40 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I don't get it? Here, Whedon had a chance to do a show about a programmable agent with conscious independent thoughts separate of that programming, but no, Fox and Whedon first allowed NBC to steal part of the concept with My Own Enemy by allowing that show to debut first although Dollhouse was conceived of and given the green light first...and now, in the season final of Chuck, the rest of the concept has been taken. Now, Joe 90 was first...but Dollhouse went for that angle, but did not drive the concept all the way there, instead, Whedon allowed others to just nibble here and there, to the point where there is nothing left but crumbs.
May 1, 2009, 3:53 a.m. CST
There's this thing called consciousness. We all have it. There's also this thing called group consciousness which is kind of a theory in which we are all pooling from the same idea...pool. I doubt Whedon let anyone steal anything.
May 1, 2009, 3:55 a.m. CST
Espensons episode is shitter than what I hear the rest of the show has been.<BR><BR>Has to be said thought it had been cancelled long ago?
May 1, 2009, 3:57 a.m. CST
I think Dollhouse and Chuck took a lot more from The Matrix than anything else. Which took a lot from the "Cyberpunk" style of science fiction which in turn took all of it's best ideas from Philip K Dick's works. But anyways. I've warmed up to Dollhouse some, but I still don't get this rampant "Joss Whedon is God" cocksucking that goes on. If The Whedon didn't write it, then it simply didn't exist before I guess. Of the 4 genre shows that will most likely not be picked up next year ( Chuck,Dollhouse,Reaper,The Sarah Connor Chronicles) Dollhouse is still by far the weakest of the lot.Sorry.
May 1, 2009, 4 a.m. CST
Yet it lives another season.I guess it fits into that Bruce Willis/Dane Cook bizarro theory.
May 1, 2009, 4:01 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
Clearly there is also another inspiration for Dollhouse besides Joe 90, and that is Showtime's adult series...Dairy of A Call Girl. The only two differences is that the lead of Call Girl is not a programmable human drone, and the other difference, where Dollhouse toys with the concept of the illegality of sex for sell, Dairy of A Call Girl goes all the way with depictions of illicit sex for money, including nudity, and twisted sex fantasies of those who would pay for it, and the coldness and selfishness of all the players involved, from the Johns to the Madames, Pimps, the Houses of Prostitution...as well as the Prostitutes themselves. <BR><BR>Dollhouse can't go there, as it is on network television, thus this fact waters down the show at every turn. Dairy of A Call Girl can be very honest and blunt with sexuality which allows it great dramatic power, from story to dialogue...however Dollhouse is forced to beat around the bush, and hence, that hurts the tone of the show, and makes what should be adult, Showtime or HBO edge, into MTV-lite instead? Stories that should be subversive, and scenes that should be crude, and provocative...lack libido, and the courage of their convictions under close scrutiny, or any scrutiny at all, for that matter. Why dare to attempt to be so bold if you are afraid to deliver what you so boldly promise?
May 1, 2009, 4:08 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
...but not within the same season or two? When ideas start flying about like that, somebody is pilfering them, consciously, and willfully.
May 1, 2009, 5 a.m. CST
by Spifftacular Squirrel Girl
Looking forward to this ep tonigt.
May 1, 2009, 6:01 a.m. CST
Last ep was let down by bad 'characters of the week' acting. The son of the dead woman was just bad bad bad. Hoping this one is better. <br> </br> With all the fuss about the 13th episode which is apparently <spoiler> set like 30 years in the future <end spoiler> , does that mean Whedon has resigned himself already to this not getting a second season?
May 1, 2009, 6:50 a.m. CST
Do NOT put serialized science fiction on Friday. Your logic that "geeks" sit home on a Friday night with a case of mountain dew and some Clearasil is idiotic. You want numbers? Give Dollhouse a sleek advertising campaign and a much better night/lead in. Its disappointing these shows keep getting cut down before their prime. I'm hoping Joss worked out some sort of contingency plan for Dollhouse if it does indeed get canceled.
May 1, 2009, 6:51 a.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 7:05 a.m. CST
Seriously, was that video supposed to be funny? Unless he was ironically imitating a loser geek college student, he fucking sucks.
May 1, 2009, 7:06 a.m. CST
Has the EOnline "Save a show poll" finished yet? Any results?
May 1, 2009, 7:18 a.m. CST
is not alpha like we thought he was. He is playing the creater/designer of the Doll House according to last weeks trailer for this episode. Unfortunantly I am not going to be able to see it till wednesday at the earliest because My speakers are out on my computer and I won't be home for the episode tonight.
May 1, 2009, 7:21 a.m. CST
Apart from Helo, Romo and the ass(neck)-kicking neighbour girl.<p>Is this show actually any good? I mean properly good, not Joss Whedon good.
May 1, 2009, 7:23 a.m. CST
fucking deal with it, sluts.
May 1, 2009, 7:45 a.m. CST
It's a bit pretentious, don't you think? And fuck Joss Whedon.
May 1, 2009, 8:01 a.m. CST
Surely it will have more seasons than Dollhouse.
May 1, 2009, 8:03 a.m. CST
Probably not programmable. Much to her loss.
May 1, 2009, 8:04 a.m. CST
its a real word. Deal with it.
May 1, 2009, 8:06 a.m. CST
Finally it has been stated publicly and it is long overdue.
May 1, 2009, 8:07 a.m. CST
You know what's pretentious? Telling people what words they are allowed to use. Get a vocabulary.
May 1, 2009, 8:07 a.m. CST
Imperious is next weeks.
May 1, 2009, 8:09 a.m. CST
Please put this show in a decent time slot.
May 1, 2009, 8:10 a.m. CST
I now really enjoy everything APART from the very weak Tamoah Penikett - is that even how you spell it? I don't rate him as an actor in the slightest.
May 1, 2009, 8:44 a.m. CST
I have most of the season stacked on my TiVo but haven't felt the need to watch it. This is despite my adoration of Eliza. However, now that I hear that JE is writing this show, I'm unsure I'm going to save the dvr space.
May 1, 2009, 8:49 a.m. CST
There's no reason why this show couldn't fly on a different night. For example Monday. Dollhouse or Heroes? Discuss!
May 1, 2009, 9:01 a.m. CST
I'll be the first to admit I thought the show was going to suck when I first heard they were doing it, and furthermore, that it had trouble finding it's footing occasionally.<p>That being said, the show has had some killer episodes, with the season finale being one of the best so far. I don't think its anywhere on par with BSG but in the current fad of not-so-reality shows, its still one of the better shows on TV.
May 1, 2009, 9:14 a.m. CST
seriously, I know Wolverine is coming out, I don't need to have to have 4 seconds to access every freaking page on this week site (on my mac, anyway). And wankers are complaining about the word 'penultimate', instead.
May 1, 2009, 9:38 a.m. CST
That's a problem you'd have to remedy yourself (don't ask how). Those autoplay video ads the site started putting up a few years back was murder on my machine until changes were made.
May 1, 2009, 10:01 a.m. CST
by Cotton McKnight
Either that or be a summer show. Why? Because Mondays are House and 24, Tuesdays are American Idol and Fringe, Wednesdays are Lie to Me and American Idol, and Thursdays are Bones and Hell's Kitchen. Every scripted show on Fox Monday-Thursday is superior to Dollhouse. Superior writing, acting, etc. They are just flat out better shows. American Idol and Hell's Kitchen? Yeah, let's dump two of the most profitable shows for a drama run by a guy whose last two shows got cancelled. And one of the networks was UPN/WB. <br><br> The fall is a different story altogether, though. 24 is not on, AI is not on... I could see it coming back on a Wednesday perhaps if it gets a second season. The show would probably do very well in this format- a 13 episode run every fall. Fox probably wouldn't go for that, though.
May 1, 2009, 10:10 a.m. CST
if it'll be back or not?
May 1, 2009, 10:41 a.m. CST
I don't know about this program. It feels empty. Like it's a good idea for a movie but can't maintain the mystery and energy for a long-running TV show. I mean, EVERYBODY with a black Amex card can order up Faith the Vampire Slayer to dress up like a trollop and perform mouth-favors on them, but a crack team of FBI agents from Battlestar Galactica can't find the fucking building. I want to like, I just don't care. And Eliza is too skinny. Eat a muffin, sweetheart, you look sick. See you in Hell.
May 1, 2009, 11:09 a.m. CST
I got some really awesome support in the lost thread: <p> Why Joss Suks c0ck <p> An essay/ list by MegaBaltar5000 <p> Joss WHedon is a champion among fags, able to take down dick alomst as good as Herc. Being James T. Herc, captain of the U.S.S. Balls on CHin, he is able to take a cock like a fucking master. Herc saw that Joss had almost the same abilities, so Herc fell in love, wanting to train Joss to be a true Cocks-man CHampion. <p> Now, here is a break down of Joss's work: <p> Buffy the whore slayer - Wow, when I found out that geeks liked this show, I was fucking absolutely amazed. It's a show for fucking tweens for fucksake! WHen I first saw buffy, I was like wtf I'm not a pre pubescent girl why the fuck am I watching this ghey fucking shit! Get Joss's fucking balls of your chin Herc!!! The douche variety hour (ANGEL) - Now we have the successor to Buffy, Angel. Basically a show for the tweens who are now teens. Still a show for chicks. Men shouldn't be watching this shit, pussies!!! Are you a 15 yo girl? Fucking douche bag fucks. Fagfly - Good cast/acting/effects. SHITTY WRITING. Doucherenity - See above comments. Also, Revers are fucking stupid. ! <p> Faghouse - MAde Eliza Dushku a Doucheku. Great going Herc! Fucking peiece of shit!
May 1, 2009, 11:13 a.m. CST
Well not so much a fucking list now, but w/e. Point still stands: <p> Buffy - For little girls <p> Angel - For little girls <p> Firefly - Buthcered by the network, so hard to tell. Good cast, but I hated a lot of the story (f u Joss). <p> Serenity - Revers are the dumbest.villain.ever. <p> Dollhouse - BSG retirement home/waste of DVR hard drive/worthless assfuckingpieceofdungshitballs
May 1, 2009, 11:15 a.m. CST
Oh man, you and me both. I wanted to knock the son down, fix his stupid collar and sit him in a room to listen to nothing but Slayer for a week. (and I don't even like Slayer all that much.. it just seems like something that would have fixed him)
May 1, 2009, 11:16 a.m. CST
Antepenultimate dick sucking! Man, Faghouse fans must have 1 sore bum! Lol!
May 1, 2009, 11:16 a.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 11:24 a.m. CST
My version of your list:<br><br> Buffy - For people to hate if they hate funny writing and unconventional character arcs/blown stereotypes.<br> <br> Angel - For people to hate if they hate funny writing, decent drama, unconventional character arcs and scarier crap added.<br><br> Firefly - Butchered by the network, so hard to tell.<br><br> Serenity - Revers are the villains.that.made.sense.<br><br> Dollhouse - Getting better by the episode which .. <br>reallypissesoffpeoplewhohatejoss <br> But.. to each their own. And we've all done THAT.
May 1, 2009, 11:24 a.m. CST
I really wish the writers would make the characters less irritating. The science guy is such a stereotype! And the dollhouse boss is such a typical "intellectual boss with an english accent"... And why can't they at least attempt to make it a bit more realistic? Sure the science is laughable at best, and the less they try to show and explain about that the better. I mean, the things that are real, characters, fights and bullets, they should aim to make those things more real... there's one episode where Echo rolls over a table while a bad guy shoots 3 bullets at her... and misses, while it's so obvious she would have been so dead. If I notice stuff like that, being myopic and retarded and all that, I'm sure the guys that make the series notice too... Is it that they don't care? Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the show, but some things could be improved. Imagine if someone hit Echo on the face and the bruise was visible during 6 episodes, or if a doll snaps and kills the boss and scientist guy, bringing new characters to the show. This show would be so much better if it didn't play it safe!
May 1, 2009, 11:25 a.m. CST
fucked paragraph breaks
May 1, 2009, 11:26 a.m. CST
so he'll stop using penultimate. oh, and also, fire his lazy ass.
May 1, 2009, 11:28 a.m. CST
Edlund IS great. Why compare? Stands on it's own as the truth.
May 1, 2009, 11:57 a.m. CST
Fox needs to get with the times. If anyone wants their news earlier than the standard 11 PM, check one of the 24 hour news networks. If people do not have cable or a dish, oh well. I doubt the networks (espicially FOX) would care much about those viewers anyway.
May 1, 2009, 11:58 a.m. CST
Dollhouse may be the weakest programme with Joss’s name attached to it but it’s still worth a watch. I hope they have enough time to explore the deeper mystery that’s been hinted at, but with 2 episodes left there’s probably not much chance of that happening. <p> They’re never going to beat the scene where Angel smothers Wesley with a pillow from season 3 of Angel though. It was one of the best scenes television ever produced.
May 1, 2009, 12:02 p.m. CST
tv series produced by HBO, starring Hugo Weaving? Apparently they're going to adapt the best stories from the comics, and have different big name directors do each installment. Most of the stuff is greenscreened with some of it shot on location in Europe. Wait, shit, no, i was just daydreaming.
May 1, 2009, 12:37 p.m. CST
24 hour news networks aren't local.
May 1, 2009, 1:23 p.m. CST
Damn, Joss, he's 88 and that sort of talk would kill him.
May 1, 2009, 1:43 p.m. CST
by Bob C. Cock
for real real. stop with the psat vocab.
May 1, 2009, 1:56 p.m. CST
by Cotton McKnight
May 1, 2009, 2:01 p.m. CST
Because history will show you Friday = Kiss of Death.
May 1, 2009, 2:17 p.m. CST
Smoldered Alexis Denisof's acting career! He turned Denisof into a useless, henpecked girlyman, who does nothing today but be a sperm donor for that ugly hag he married!
May 1, 2009, 2:28 p.m. CST
I can feel your burning Alexis crush coming off through the talkback. Smoldering indeed!
May 1, 2009, 2:32 p.m. CST
I'd be quite content as well, conserving all of my energy to ravage that red carpet on the regular.
May 1, 2009, 2:33 p.m. CST
He still does some stuff here and there. Hell, if I had a super-hot wife like Allyson who had a successful job on a multi-seasoned 'hit' sit-com and was bringing in all the bank we needed, I'd sit my ass down and play some X-Box, do some writing. It'd be great!
May 1, 2009, 2:34 p.m. CST
Sometimes we think too much alike. It's scary.
May 1, 2009, 2:35 p.m. CST
Will be LEGEN...<br> <br> <br> wait for it...<br> <br> <br> DARY!<br> <br> Oh, Steve the Pirate. I've missed you, sir.
May 1, 2009, 2:55 p.m. CST
...when you come across sounding like a complete moron, why should anyone believe your opinion matters? STFU and go post elsewhere.
May 1, 2009, 4:32 p.m. CST
Not saying that would have saved the show in the ratings or anything, or that I hate the intro music they have now (I like that little jack-in-the-box winding-down bit that closes it a lot), but, c'mon, the lyrics were perfect and it had a bit of a depressing, dark vibe that goes with this show. (I am doll parts... yeah, they really want you . . . etc.) I mean, c'mon, it was gold.
May 1, 2009, 5:03 p.m. CST
And I like that show. FOX keeps kissing Bones' ass even though that show ran out of steam a long time ago.
May 1, 2009, 5:12 p.m. CST
It makes perfect sense, especially since Ms. Cobain now looks like she was assembled out of plastic doll bits. I wrote Fox a letter asking why the soundtrack didn't contain more music by the New York Dolls, or any tracks off of Metallica's Master of Puppets, but no response so far. Here's hoping there's another Ballard/Mellie angry sex scene, this time scored to "The Thing That Should Not Be."
May 1, 2009, 5:39 p.m. CST
Will there be a lot of weeping?
May 1, 2009, 7:52 p.m. CST
"Dollhouse fans: Get thee to http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/ after tonight's episode. Big news." <p> He better not be playing. This better be 13th ep related or better. Or else I'm getting stabby. (not really)
May 1, 2009, 8:04 p.m. CST
Off her meds though.
May 1, 2009, 8:06 p.m. CST
Ballard, you DUFUS. Cold-hearted Dufus.
May 1, 2009, 8:07 p.m. CST
Could have a career in government documentation re: freedoms of info act.
May 1, 2009, 8:08 p.m. CST
Jane, you she-devil.
May 1, 2009, 8:11 p.m. CST
if they can afford it." Cynical but totally apprapos for the D'House world.
May 1, 2009, 8:11 p.m. CST
he's fucking Warren from Buffy barely reskinned.<p> I doubt you could find another actor that resembeles Warren more<p> And then to write the character just like the other
May 1, 2009, 8:14 p.m. CST
cross between Andrew & Warren, you're right.
May 1, 2009, 8:16 p.m. CST
You know, that says a LOT about Ballard's character. Especially after his total weakness last week.
May 1, 2009, 8:16 p.m. CST
I bet she's a doll too<p> Another cockblock for Ballard<p> Pretends to help, gathers intel, and then betrays
May 1, 2009, 8:17 p.m. CST
Into Victor *gasp*
May 1, 2009, 8:17 p.m. CST
Code! Total Code.
May 1, 2009, 8:19 p.m. CST
Talkbackers were right.
May 1, 2009, 8:19 p.m. CST
saw it on an ep of The Incredible Hulk in the 80's
May 1, 2009, 8:20 p.m. CST
for a broken razor blade ala Oz.
May 1, 2009, 8:21 p.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 8:22 p.m. CST
They rule :)
May 1, 2009, 8:23 p.m. CST
I guess his mom was right<br> His face did get stuck that way
May 1, 2009, 8:24 p.m. CST
Man, Alan Tudyk is kicking ASS. And tinkering with tinkling.
May 1, 2009, 8:25 p.m. CST
criminally underused actor
May 1, 2009, 8:27 p.m. CST
motivation. He treats Mellie!Doll like ...a Doll, I guess but he has such a hard on for Caroline and seems to truly care about her well being.
May 1, 2009, 8:31 p.m. CST
Ballard is fucked in the head. I am seriously considering that at this point.
May 1, 2009, 8:32 p.m. CST
There is almost no contest. *yikes*
May 1, 2009, 8:32 p.m. CST
they're progeamable weapons
May 1, 2009, 8:32 p.m. CST
Alan Tudyk is alpha?!? sorry if someone mentioned this above
May 1, 2009, 8:35 p.m. CST
that Wash is pulling off is some of the best stuff I have seen this season. His stuttering, twithcy antics out shines the Adelle/Topher couching jumping by bounds. They definitly needed more of the eccentric than the broad type of humour in this case.
May 1, 2009, 8:36 p.m. CST
in the machine<p> Alpha can download itself to any active in any dollhouse
May 1, 2009, 8:37 p.m. CST
Jesus was a Spy in the House of Love.
May 1, 2009, 8:38 p.m. CST
Not to get all girly but Alan's bod is looking *meow*
May 1, 2009, 8:41 p.m. CST
to tell after...
May 1, 2009, 8:42 p.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 8:42 p.m. CST
Apparently people are getting banned for attempting to steer this TB into a Supernatural one.... As a long time reader of TB I can tell ya that racist, bigoted sh!t is the norm in TB without moderation. Anyways.... just not to PO anyone... Dollhouse was excellent.... Ibsen captured the despair and ultimate courage of Nora.
May 1, 2009, 8:44 p.m. CST
I smile that is for sure.....
May 1, 2009, 8:47 p.m. CST
One guy with underscore fetish getting some payback. You need a better angle...although the broken english is fun. Work with that.
May 1, 2009, 8:48 p.m. CST
currently in Wash
May 1, 2009, 8:48 p.m. CST
What happened the first 40 minutes?
May 1, 2009, 8:49 p.m. CST
With Bow Legged Wimmen'...
May 1, 2009, 8:49 p.m. CST
I'm not sure who I want to win..*twitch*
May 1, 2009, 8:50 p.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 8:50 p.m. CST
Tudyk for the WIN!!!<br> <br> Alpha, baby, ALPHA!!!!!
May 1, 2009, 8:51 p.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 8:51 p.m. CST
is pure awesomeness. Period.
May 1, 2009, 8:51 p.m. CST
I actually thought Ballard would end up being Alpha, but Tudyk is a great choice, simply because I want to see him in a Whedon series again after what happened in "Serenity".
May 1, 2009, 8:52 p.m. CST
*gurgle* Alpha is an artist. I think this is goingto be a case of me falling in lurve with a villian. Again.
May 1, 2009, 8:54 p.m. CST
Cut A Bitch!
May 1, 2009, 8:55 p.m. CST
I am definitely liking CrAzY Alan Tudyk.
May 1, 2009, 8:55 p.m. CST
Fasination with ones self - he`s got that in spades.
May 1, 2009, 8:58 p.m. CST
Just wondering.... ;) Oh.... I love Dollhouse :)
May 1, 2009, 9 p.m. CST
perfect choice for Alpha
May 1, 2009, 9 p.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 9 p.m. CST
Seriously, what an episode. If Fox cancels this we're done, first Wonderfalls, Firefly, and Drive, if they don't bring this one back we're through.
May 1, 2009, 9:01 p.m. CST
Sitting in a tree... <p> I can't even...guh. <p> Fox, you fucks. Mythology right off the bat; fuck your stand-a-lones in the first five eps. At the very least, I could of had Alan.T a little sooner to raise the godddamn stakes.
May 1, 2009, 9:01 p.m. CST
God bless Alan Tudyk, God bless Joss Whedon, and God bless the United States of America!
May 1, 2009, 9:02 p.m. CST
Best. Episode. <br> <br> I officially take back an complaints about Dollhouse. I now need a second season more than oxygen.
May 1, 2009, 9:02 p.m. CST
May 1, 2009, 9:04 p.m. CST
And Next Week Looks Twisted Too!
May 1, 2009, 9:05 p.m. CST
What's with the promos suddenly giving Alpha and Echo trashy, Natural Born Killers southern accents? That's as cliched as the "Noooo!" with a body in your hands crane shot.
May 1, 2009, 9:08 p.m. CST
Fox should at least give this another chance....
May 1, 2009, 9:09 p.m. CST
Not a bad ep though.
May 1, 2009, 9:09 p.m. CST
And yet shows like this and Chuck are on the bubble?!!!!
May 1, 2009, 9:09 p.m. CST
is to download his redneck psyco girlfriend into Echo and download Caroline into a ugly chick
May 1, 2009, 9:13 p.m. CST
The two "good" guys have a knock down, drag out fight while the "harmless" crazy guy turns out to be Alpha. Whedon, Espenson et al know how to tell a story.<BR><BR> While Prison Break is so much the complete opposite they could beam it into space and it could collapse the universe. I fear no show can survive following these new episodes of Prison Break.
May 1, 2009, 9:13 p.m. CST
Haters suck it. DH/Joss/Alan/Jane rules.
May 1, 2009, 9:20 p.m. CST
Just an interview with Alan. <p> *STAB* <p> Anyway, here's a informative part: <p> "If Dollhouse gets renewed, will Alpha be back? I'm assuming your role in ABC's V reboot -- assuming that it gets picked up -- could pose a complication… <p> TUDYK: Joss hasn't said anything about the future of Alpha, but I could free myself up for it. That isn't contractually impossible. I could get out as much as he needs me to."
May 1, 2009, 9:20 p.m. CST
by Bouncy X
i admit i found out he'd be playing the role a while back but even if i hadnt, seeing a new character thats connected to the dollhouse get so much screentime in the episode before the finale woulda rung a bell, especially the fact its a "whedon alumn". but i guess it was a lose/lose situation. either alpha would be a new actor we havent seen, or he would have been someone who's been there since day 1. considering how cliche that woulda been, i suppose this was the best option. anyway not complaining, loved the episode and alan played twitchy well.
May 1, 2009, 9:28 p.m. CST
I jumped over there too, all excited for some actual news. That cock tease.
May 1, 2009, 9:34 p.m. CST
So back in high school when I wanted to be a "writer", I wrote a short story on my Brother typewriter about a woman who hears a noise down in the basement and goes downstairs to investigate. They were olden, wooden stairs like in your grandpa's basement that had more space inbetween each step than was logical. Dark, quiet..creaking. <p> Anyway, a shapeshifting hand reached through the space and grabbed the women's leg and yanked it on it. Pulled. <p> Dislocation of socket. Broken pelvis. Other leg 45 degree angle with knee touching her chin. Muscle tears and her leg rips off. She tumbles to the bottom and "The Shapeshifter" approaches...they find her later with her head missing in a clean cut and her necklace stil attached to the stump of her neck. <p> Left the story in my typewriter and when I cam home from school, my moms asked me if I needed to "talk" to anyone.... <p> Totally Stephen King inspired story, by the by. "Night Shift" kicked ass.
May 1, 2009, 10:21 p.m. CST
by Spifftacular Squirrel Girl
Just wasn't the way they were hinting at earlier in the episode. <p> Really enjoyed this even if I was pretty sure Tudyk was going to end up being Alpha. <p> Now onto the mystery of who "Whiskey" is. Has to be Acker's character right? Or would it be even more messed up if it ended up being Adelle?
May 1, 2009, 10:31 p.m. CST
Whiskey! Like, another doll. I just got that. Cool beans! Another mystery to replace that of Alpha...<br> <br> Yes, the true reveal of Briar Rose and her Prince left me literally breathless for a moment.<br> <br> Nice story, buffywrestling! Sounds similar to the tone of the novel I'm working on currently (I'm still wanting to be a 'writer'). King is King, totally an acceptable influence. Dark Tower was the dog's balls (in a good way); best meta-fiction work I've read.
May 1, 2009, 11:09 p.m. CST
I don't think you can say chuck ripped off dollhouse. Chuck doesn't take itself too seriously. You can say that mentalist and psych have the exact same premise, but they are two very, very different shows. Chuck doesn't take itself too seriously. dollhouse does. The shows should be evaluated differently. They are trying to do two very different things.
May 2, 2009, 12:42 a.m. CST
I assume she is the second Saunders, and Alpha killed the first one. That's why he told her she hadn't always been a doctor. Alan Tudyk looked hot as shit in that shirt. Great episode. RENEW IT
May 2, 2009, 1:21 a.m. CST
by Chief Joseph
Of this scripted shows you mentioned, Lie to Me and Bones are inferior to Dollhouse. Bones is exceptionally stupid. (The demographic for Bones is so moronic that they have to put in "recaps" re-explaining the story halfway through the episode!) This may be considered blasphemy here, but I usually find Dollhouse to be more enjoyable than Fringe as well. FOX should boot one of those shows (Bones) and put Dollhouse in its place.
May 2, 2009, 2:46 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
...who do we root for here? Again, as yet, Echo has not been presented as a hero, she is just a non-thinking pawn for others...and the FBI agent is a spectator to the unfolding events. This is a series without a hero, or even without a true villain for that hero, if she ever shows-up, that is, to square-off against, thus lessening the impact of the overall drama, and any potential plot arcs. You can't sympathize fully with a character who you don't know, and are unsure of. How do we know if Echo will become a hero, or a villain, or if she will remain an indifferent nobody...and why should we care, Joss hasn't given us a reason to care??? How can you root for that? That is like asking the audience to root for a wall, you can't invest in it emotionally, spiritually, or intellectually. <BR><BR>There is no push and pull here? Echo is not wanting for revenge, or angry, she is as satisfied to be in her position as the prostitute featured on Oprah the other day, who works at the Bunny Ranch, in Nevada--after all, like that woman, Echo agreed to sign the contract to be a Doll, it was not done by force. As for Echo, if we are to believe that she is indeed a captive, as is also forwarded, where is the drama in a character who, episode for episode, can't even outthink her implied captors, as she is a happy mind-wiped, and controlled, prisoner who does not know that she is a prisoner--again, if that is even the case? Save for winks here, and there, that may imply that she does know her circumstance, we are never sure, so why care? We are 11 or 12 episodes in, and have no clue as to the truth? Could that mean that Echo is freely there, of her own conscious will, or hiding her knowledge out of fear of something worse, or playing the Dollhouse personel? And what of the outside programming of Echo, by person or persons unknown? Question: Is that Alpha programming her, or some other entity or faction? Without concrete answers for these questions, once more, who cares? <BR><BR>Joss needs to write something to make us care about the lead character here, personally...and immediately so. Hell, we can't even care about a villain's (or villains') motives, or if they have anger, and need for revenge, against the hero, legitimate, or imagined, as we have no villain per-say, and no hero for them to hate, or menace. This is what this show is missing, and why the show is failing to grow an audience. All we have witnessed is background mythology being grown--the mythology of the B plot, and the C plot...but not the A plot, the one that is suppose to directly involve the Hero's Journey. Joss Whedon needs to really catch-up on Joseph Campbell's work, as the structure of this show, Dollhouse, is painfully missing that much needed element. Perhaps this part of the show is being informed by the influence that Whedon is gleaning from the emotionally vacant Diary of A Call Girl...a show with amazing glitz, and flash, style, grace, and enormous expertise...filmmaking wise--including smart writing, and great acting and direction, but it is a show that is focused on a sociopathic prostitute, who cares about no one but herself, her sex addictions, and her addiction to money and materialism, therein--and Joss Whedon's interpretation of that character is an even more empty echo, in the form of Echo, and that is certainly ironic, as Echo is an accidental sociopath...as someone else's creation...but then again, that is actually true of all sociopaths who are created by the hand of others, and or, that of their environment(s)--and what great irony is that?
May 2, 2009, 3:02 a.m. CST
(or Grey...damn you, X-Men, I'm never sure what the proper spelling is!)<br> <Br> One of the most compelling aspects of Dollhouse is that...there IS no villian. There is no hero. Everyone is flawed; that's the whole basis of the Dollhouse itself, as well as the people investigating it (ie: Ballard last episode). All of the Dolls/Actives falls into that gray zone, since it is implied that everyone there is a willing participant in these activities, or at least signed themselves over to BE willing participants.<br> <br> In fact, going a step further, if we include the 'studio mentality' aspect that seems so prevelant as an analogy to how movie studios/TV companies see their actors/actresses and other 'talent', you can argue that point as well. They can disagree with what the studios want, to be 'marketable' (ie: whoring yourself), but if you keep going back to them because they're the ones signing your checks, how much of a 'victim' are you? Are you then an 'accomplice' because you know you need this job and have to eat and support your family, or do you go out and do what you think is right?<br> <br> Hell, it's also indicitive of most modern 'civilized' nations, who see pain and suffering in many parts of the world and say, 'Gosh. I should do something.' Then (at BEST) send a check for dollars a month in hopes that this will fix a few problems, or (at WORST) sit back and hope somebody else is doing the heavy lifting...instead of going out and doing something. But...<br> <br> What?<br> <br> What do we do? How can we possibly change the world?<br> <br> It's a vicious cycle. Kinda' like the Dollhouse.
May 2, 2009, 3:16 a.m. CST
he seemed to have recovered well from that reaver spear through the chest.<p>I have to hand it to Helo motherfucker can take a beating.
May 2, 2009, 3:21 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
The business model of this show isn't working. Yes, you are correct, we both are correct--it appears Joss Whedon's series mandate for Dollhouse is to not have a hero or villain for the show, just like Dairy of A Call Girl, or the new Galactica. It may be a bold move, or perhaps just plain foolish, but it is hurting the ratings very badly, nontheless, and that is my point.
May 2, 2009, 3:26 a.m. CST
and considering the series is probably cancelled, that it's not a bad way for it to go out. <p> By starting the series up after Alphas escape, it's like being dropped into the middle of an ongoing story. And so, by being taken out of the story before it reaches the "end", there's a certain kind of symmetry to the show. <p> We get one half season of Dollhouse, and it plays like a mid-section of a larger story, where we (the viewers) can fill in the blanks of the before and after.
May 2, 2009, 3:30 a.m. CST
I wasn't talking about any 'business' angles for the show. I was just discussing the story (I always feel that's the most important thing; I'm one of those hopeless creative types).<br> <br> But talking of those shows you mention...Diary of a Call Girl was originally a BBC production, imported, yes? (I could be very wrong in that...but it seems to be a British produced show, so I assumed) If that IS the case, then it was successful enough to be bought and played in the states. And I'm still needing to catch up on Galactica, but it ended up being pretty damn successful, right? I mean, by SciFi standards at least, I'd assume.
May 2, 2009, 3:36 a.m. CST
Not every show needs an obvious GOOD and BAD. These characters are GRAY. Cope.
May 2, 2009, 3:39 a.m. CST
I think the show is deliberately being left without a hero/heroine to root for, and a villain to play off of, because the shows nature is experimental. (Probably too high-brow a concept for Fox, but what the hey.) <p> The villain is human nature. The hero is human nature. Within each meat sack is the potential to be either. And it's deliberately kept vague and undefined. <p> I also thought it was a very good analogy of Caroline's situation with the abused little girl. There were layers of subtext around that whole conversation, about how wanted to run, but couldn't. How she wanted to pretend things hadn't happened, rewriting the past. <p> Based on that thickly layered conversation, I think we may find out that Caroline signed up to the Dollhouse to rewrite her past. Not being able to afford the services of the Dollhouse, she leases her body to them for 5 years, say, and at the end of it, they agree to edit her memories and make her the kind of best-possible idealised version of the old Caroline. <p> Not so much a twist for the sake of a twist, but a logical (and yet hopefully surprising) outgrowth of what humans would really do with Dollhouse technology.
May 2, 2009, 3:50 a.m. CST
Just spitballing here, but when Mr. Dominic called out "Whiskey", was the Doctors reaction one of recognition? <p> I'm not sure how to read the exchange. <p> I thought at first it was a codename for the spy who was implanting messages for Ballard. Especially because the Doctors "He wants a drink" seemed like such a LAME attempt at covering up. <p> But then, the fact that no-one in the room seemed to react with a "What did he mean? Who's Whiskey?" reaction, got me thinking along different lines. <p> Now, my thinking is that Whiskey is a Doll. Like all the other phonetic alphabet Doll names, Echo, Sierra, Victor, Alpha. <p> And it's possible he was calling the Doctor "Whiskey", implying that she was/is also a Doll. (This would nicely explain why she never leaves the Dollhouse.) And that everyone except her actually knew this. <p> Thoughts?
May 2, 2009, 3:51 a.m. CST
Right on, sir. There were so many analogies in this episode, I don't even know where to start. I need to re-watch; I actually forget quite a few I thought of during my inital viewing.
May 2, 2009, 3:53 a.m. CST
Agreed. Someone mentioned that earlier in the TB, and I went 'Whiskey! Like, Alpha, Bravo...Whiskey!'. <br> <br> And agreed, we've long suspected Acker's a Doll. Makes perfect sense.
May 2, 2009, 3:57 a.m. CST
That'll teach me not to read the talkbacks in order.
May 2, 2009, 4:08 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
And that is why you are so angry with me! Now, go back to doing what you probably do best, writing...on staff, for Dollhouse, one of the reasons why the ratings are so low, your inability to listen to valid criticism, the common sense herein...and thus, the good advice, story and plotting wise, when you receive it. That is why Chuck is now successfully taking the concepts introduced by, and of, Dollhouse, and running with them, as if they were organic to that show. See the last scene of the season final of Chuck for the full evidence of that. I rest my case.
May 2, 2009, 4:16 a.m. CST
between Chuck and Dollhouse AT ALL. <br> <br> Chuck is about an average nerd-dude who works at a Best Buy-like store who gets involved with the world of espionage/counter-terrorism. The show is basically a comedy, with some dramatic moments.<br> <br> Dollhouse is about a super-subversive company who takes in 'applicants' (as far as we can tell) to be wiped of personality and re-programmed in to whatever identity is needed for super-rich clients. The show is basically a very serious drama, with some comedic moments.<br> <br> Just askin'. Don't seem the same at all. Am I missing something?
May 2, 2009, 4:24 a.m. CST
Christ ona crutch. <p> If this keeps up, I'll find out that I'm secretly Joss Whedon!
May 2, 2009, 4:29 a.m. CST
MM just has the sort of mind that sees links everywhere. And then sees purpose and meanings behind those links. So if two shows are similar, one must be stealing from the other. It couldn't possibly be that the ideas are generic or part of the Zeitgeist. <p> Oh and thanks for the comment earlier about the analogies. I was really pleased when I wrote that scene. <p> Oh no! I've said too much! :p
May 2, 2009, 4:38 a.m. CST
I whole heartedly agree re: studio comparisons. That was just ONE aspect Joss was going for. This is the debate I had going with Tb'er A the Aristocrat. An allegory is a metaphor that underscores the intentional conflict; it gives things TWO underlying meanings instead of one. <p> It's like you have the surface meaning of Dollhouse, which is like Domino's Sluts to your Door in 30 minutes or less; no questions asked. Underneath that you have the philanropic D'House which seems to want to fix things, if for nothing more than the validation of good deeds done by desperate measures. And for a price. <p> What ties it all together in a deeper garrote is BOTH of these seemingly contradicting mindsets tightening around each other at the same time. And those two mindsets give us a deeper insight in what it means to be beholden to things outside of ourselves. <p> I kinda think this show is all about respondsibility. And the question: If you aren't responsible for your actions; who is? <p> Blame your Mom, blame your Dad, blame the teachers that taught ya. It's still all you in the end.
May 2, 2009, 4:42 a.m. CST
You can say "It's still all you in the end", but I tend to believe that the people we are, is in a very large way informed by our experiences. And those experiences are largely controlled by outside forces. How often does an abused kid grow up to be an abuser themselves? What about the son of an alcoholic? Doesn't mental illness sometimes run in families? <p> "If you aren't responsible for your actions; who is?" <p> It's a good question, but I don't think the answer is as black and white as you seem to indicate. And Dollhouse might have gone some way to addressing questions like that, but I guess we'll never know now.
May 2, 2009, 5:24 a.m. CST
I wasn't very clear. Sorry about that. It's a "Nature vs Nurture" arguement, really. There have been reams of books written on the subject but - God, I'm saying this - I think it's a little bit of both. (A "Gump" reference; how completely lame but true). <p> But I also believe - and this a personal standpoint - that you can also control your own path no matter the deadfalls that are placed in front of you. It all depends on how you approach them. Some may climb, some may go around, some may build a fort.. <p> All I meant to say that it is still all you in the end. <p> Huh. <p> Lady & the Tiger choices... <p> Man, I'm bumming myself out.
May 2, 2009, 5:37 a.m. CST
Not so much Nature v. Nurture, as it is You v. You. I think you're both hitting it right on; despite what moral forest we're given to traverse, it's our own choices (and really, our own moral compass and even our own personal sense of right-and-wrong) that decide what we think of as the proper choices in those shades of gray. Listen. I'm 'a get some sleep and reconvene tomorrow. And I want no one getting bummed out, especially after the amazing show-gasm we had with tonights episode. I'll leave you with this...<br> <br> TUDYK = ALPHA!! <Br> nextweeknextweeknextweek
May 2, 2009, 5:50 a.m. CST
the whole traversing bit in the gray. Also... <p> Alpha is gonna rock out with his cock out next week! *slicesliceslice*
May 2, 2009, 5:57 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
To Buffy and Fain88: Alpha or not.Next week will be the last week.<BR><BR>To V'Shael: You probably are Joss Whedon. Smile.
May 2, 2009, 6:33 a.m. CST
May 2, 2009, 6:38 a.m. CST
confused with "Next Week". <p> Hey,can I read your outline?
May 2, 2009, 7:01 a.m. CST
Chuck is great too, but I can only compare the two once Casey starts cutting peoples faces as a signature of individuality "they're never the same you know" AWESOME!!!
May 2, 2009, 7:10 a.m. CST
by Dradis Contact
<p>The only thing that would have made this episode better would be if Ballard had said "hey wait how did you get so muscled up living in this pot garden"</p>
May 2, 2009, 7:22 a.m. CST
So apparently next week's ep is titled "Omega", my guess Ballard will be imprinted as a Doll and sent out to hunt Alpha and Echo. It'll probably close out with our new couple attacking another Dollhouse...maybe even building an army?
May 2, 2009, 7:29 a.m. CST
If he wasn't such as dufus... <p> He's not even a "hipster dufus". He's just a guy that can't find anything that everyone seems to know about and uses pretty Mellie like girls as bait and/or revenge!sex. Dufus.
May 2, 2009, 7:35 a.m. CST
MM has had several. None of his own, naturally. Just tweaks of the Whedon Dollhouse concept. Nevertheless, here they are (in quotes " "): (Apologies to everyone else for the length of the post, but at least I'll only post it *once*.) <p> "make this show and its concept easier to follow...just change the setting of the Dollhouse and its mission to a uni-sex college dorm...where the students in the dorm are young people who have been pre-programmed to be unwitting spies, complete with false identities...a fact, all unknown to them. Everything about these people, from their ever changing spying personas to their perceived college lives, and their personal and family lives a carefully managed sham. One of the programmable spies begins to get her memory back and starts to realize her whole life is a lie and now she is out to take down the organization, the Dollhouse, from the inside out. That is a much better and streamlined concept. I'm open to selling it to the studio. I really need the money for a honestly good cause!!! Buy me a house and give me some pocket change, the cost of an 30 second ad on Fox, and you can have it, lock, stock and barrel!!!" <p> This was then followed by an additional tweak (Addendum I suppose it could be called) <p> "I changed the characters into spies and intelligence agents. The uni-sex college dorm, the college campus...the student/college life angle, the secret agent angle, the false families (hired agents), etc., are all mine, none appear in Whedon's show as it currently is. You see, in my writing, these people, the programmable leads, actually do have active lives. In Mr. Whedon's version, they are basically, and largely unaware 5 year old children, in terms of mental maturity and development, until they are programmed for a mission, and they are not agents, BTW. They are also cut-off from the outside world, save for the Dollhouse, a secret organization, one which I think is more than a bit claustrophobic in terms of concept. What I have written in my outline, opens things-up making the proceedings more like Joe-90 meets Alias. The spy angle opens up many great story possibilies, for rich character development and arcs therein."<br> "As university students, the characters would have set personas and personalities that you can count on seeing and getting to know, week to week, just like your group of friends in school, or at work-- your social group: everything would appear to be normal...but what these characters won't know and we, the audience will, is that their lives are a sham, and during certain times of the day or night, or during weekends, instead of going to part time jobs, on dates, certain parties, or vacations, the typical college student's life, they are instead being reprogrammed and sent on spy and assassination missions. When these agents return, they are left unaware of what occured and proceed with their normal lives, or at least, ones they think are true and normal."<br> "You see, I have incorporated the best of Whedon's premise with my own, something that I think makes the story and the characters more assessible to audiences. The original concept as it is, is much too cryptic of a story, as the programmable persons really have no set missions other than to play the role of hired playthings for private individuals and corporations, etc., sort of like human props at Fantasy Island, to be used for sex, romance, schemes, and so on, and so forth??? It's like the ultimate Fantasy Football Game, where you can hire and befriend the players, but you can also rent the cheerleaders, date them, and sleep with them and their minds are erased afterward. At least that is how the premise has been reported, and that is rather confusing when you are dealing with brand new personalities from week to week in the form of the main characters, with no set personalities of their own, even false ones, for us, the audience to relate to, or fall in love with, or to like."<br> "There is only so much you can take of deprogrammed adults acting like children between being reprogrammed, from week to week, hence, the reason for my re-write of the premise for the show...to clear-up the story and get the audience right into the premise without any unnecessary exposition and the resulting confusion. " <p> And then finally, he was pushing for a mid-season retooling or reimagining, or relaunch.., whatever you want to call it. <p> "I would suggest that the producers alter the concept by having the FBI raid the Dollhouse and re-purpose it, and the Actives to go after high stakes national and international jobs, ala nuclear threats and terrorism, etc. I would also suggest that Echo be given a base personality, but that certain mission details...be erased from her memory, redacted to keep missions above top secret, after each engagement, in order to protect the Actives and the agency from leaks, blackmail, and torture should agents be interdicted by enemies of the nation. The difference? The Actives will now know that they are agents...and the parameters of the program they are in. The show should be about their reaction to this, and the consequences of the memory wipes. Are the Actives safer not knowing the details of their missions, or does it place them at higher risk when past enemies come calling?" <p> That's the broadstrokes mind you. I seem to remember he thought sending Dolls to Israel was a good idea too at one point.
May 2, 2009, 7:37 a.m. CST
he had to keep up aperances. Otherwise they'd know, that he knew Mellie was a doll. Also they might discover that someone was using dolls to feed him information.<p> It was eating him up, made him disgusted with himself. That's why he was moving, and knew he had limited time until they figured out he knew and that Mellie was a double mole.
May 2, 2009, 7:39 a.m. CST
I think it's been confirmed already that the last episode won't feature anyone from the regular cast, as it's set 30 years in the future. <p> I think it'll be a real "concept" show. Showing what society will be like, with the Dollhouse technology. Virtual immortality. <p> One way, would be for the worlds population to be massively reduced, with billions of people stored offline, and an automated system calling up needed minds into meatsacks to handle different situations. The whole human race as immortal Dolls. <p> Or, same idea, but have only one meat-sack left in the world. And the thousands of minds stored offline all get to spend one day in the human meat-sack, roaming the wastelands, leaving notes for the next person in the body to find, that sort of thing. <p> There's plenty of possible ways it could go, and plenty of possible meanings for Omega (being the last.)
May 2, 2009, 7:47 a.m. CST
Alpha. Alan T. stuttered an twitched his way into the best thing I have seen this year. That includes my Jack/Sawyer love and my Olive/Emerson love. He did more range in nine minutes of total air time than I have seen in a actor this year. Will be ignored by Emmy due to A) Whedon show & B) Genre show. <p> Second favorite: Adelle DeWitt. Started off as fridged but through the wonderful world of "Show; Not Tell" gave her increasing depth, stress and melencholy. <p> I thought Boyd was going to take me to the end of the show but nows all I am hoping for is an Alpha v DeWitt smackdown.
May 2, 2009, 7:57 a.m. CST
That is a reasonable excuse. I still don't have to like it though. I am a very rigid person in some ways and I think I am projecting a bit. Ballard has just done so many things that I wouldn't have done if I was in his shoes. Big Dufus.
May 2, 2009, 8:07 a.m. CST
and epitaph one was the last ep, set in the future.
May 2, 2009, 8:08 a.m. CST
I have heard that Wanda on E!Online got both points WRONG. It is *not* set 30 years in the future and it does feature most of the regular cast. <p> I mean, it sounds awesome and if it turns out that way, I will be happy. <p> But Joss is an old hat at spoilers. Does anyone remember the BtVS wildfeeds back in '99? He has gotten completely better at misguiding and downright lying about projects, the current filming of "The Cabin In The Woods" as such. It went from being a spoiler-fest at the Bronze and the Stakehouse to very limited clues in the new movie. Although Joss did accept his Bradbury Award from the movie's basement.
May 2, 2009, 8:12 a.m. CST
called "Epithaph One". It will be available on DVD only. <p> Dollhouse season (series?) finale is next week, I believe.
May 2, 2009, 8:14 a.m. CST
And yes, I had an early morning brain fart, and got the Omega/Epitath titles mixed up. <p> I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
May 2, 2009, 8:22 a.m. CST
It's Fox Studios & Fox Broadcasting. Same company name but neither division knows what the other is doing. It was a total "Office" error. One said the 13th was going to air in May; the other sent out a release saying that it wasn't. Just another Dollhouse PR fuck up on their part (and yeah, I blame Fox the Entire for that).
May 2, 2009, 9:02 a.m. CST
When do we meet those dolls?
May 2, 2009, 9:11 a.m. CST
MM, if those two talkbackers are writers for dollhouse, how do you think they would be able to use your ideas? You post your 'suggestions for improvement' after you've seen episodes, and somehow, you expect they can incorporate your ideas, as if it only takes a week to write and produce an episode. seriously, get a grip on reality.
May 2, 2009, 9:15 a.m. CST
Just kidding - You have been mind-wiped!
May 2, 2009, 9:19 a.m. CST
Darth Rosenberg is about to get all flay-happy on Warren...
May 2, 2009, 9:21 a.m. CST
It's sounded like starting off a new roll of Duct tape *rrrrripptch*
May 2, 2009, 9:25 a.m. CST
May 2, 2009, 9:47 a.m. CST
It's just that Alpha's intentions are about as clear as mud. I can understand how they might want to keep him shrouded in some sort of mystery, but as of right now, his entire beef with the Dollhouse is downloading a particular psycho slutty girlfriend memory/personality into Caroline. That's kind of. . .anticlimactic.
May 2, 2009, 9:51 a.m. CST
Suppose he super-imposed several personalities (memories and skillsets) into one, and uploaded them into Echo? To make a female equivalent of himself?
May 2, 2009, 9:58 a.m. CST
Maybe he has more than one motivation? But with only one more episode left we will most not likely find out.
May 2, 2009, 10:12 a.m. CST
Alpha is such a twitchy bitch. I mean we found out when Echo was a negotiator that a Doll can't be perfect; that they had to have some flaws for balance. Does it stand to reason that the stuttering, verbal spewing, completely cowardly Alpha at the beginning is his "flaw"? The only thing I have to back up this theory is the masterful stroke of his scapel when he carved Victor. It was VERY percise.
May 2, 2009, 10:21 a.m. CST
Maybe it's because I had incredibly low expectations but so far good, not great. <p> Think the major issue for me is not really caring about the main character, but really like the supporting characters. <p> The other observation is the incredible focus on Echo's body, the sex sells angle. Would be interesting to see how far they would have gone/ shown had this been on HBO.
May 2, 2009, 10:25 a.m. CST
I'm not sure what you mean by that, Buffywrestling. Why is it precise? Three quick slashes to the face. Didn't seem particularly artistic or precise to me. It's not like he was trying to cut a specific spot, no?
May 2, 2009, 10:43 a.m. CST
TV networks need to take a risk, and that is NOT canceling shows that aren't getting high ratings in their first few weeks on the air. Terminator, Dollhouse, Kings, The Unusuals, Castle (well, maybe not Castle), are all good shows that need time to collect their audiences. They could also use better time slots, but I'll settle for letting these shows survive for a longer run.
May 2, 2009, 10:52 a.m. CST
But I got the impression - with that evil smirk on his face - that he was almost conducting an orchestra on Victor's face.
May 2, 2009, 10:55 a.m. CST
May 2, 2009, 11 a.m. CST
If I had to recommened Dollhouse watching: I'd say start with ep 2, jump to ep 6, then watch to the end of the series.
May 2, 2009, 11:07 a.m. CST
from James Hibbert Live feed: <p> "CBS wins Friday; 'Dollhouse' hits new low Not again! The penultimate episode of Dollhouse dropped the series to another new low -- 1.1 preliminary adults 18-49 rating and 3.1 million viewers. Lead-in Prison Break was stable with 1.0 rating and 3.2 million viewers." <p> (Hey! Another guy uses "penultimate" too. It's like they are literate or something!)
May 2, 2009, 11:13 a.m. CST
courtesy of gossi @ whedonesque[dot]com: <p> The overnights tracker: <p> Episode 01 - 4.8 million, 2.0 in 18-49 demo. <p> Episode 02 - 4.3 million, 1.7 in 18-49 demo. 5% share. <p> Episode 03 - 4.2 million, 1.6 in 18-49 demo. 5% share. <p> Episode 04 - 3.5 million, 1.5 in 18-49 demo, 5% share. <p> Episode 05 - 4.3 million, 1.6 in 18-49 demo, 5% share. <p> Episode 06 - 4.1 million, 1.5 in 18-49 demo, 5% share. <p> Episode 07 - 3.9 million, 1.3 in 18-49 demo, 4% share. (In the finals it was 1.4 in 18-49 demo). <p> Episode 08 - 3.5 million, 1.4 in 18-49 demo, 5% share. <p> Episode 09 - 3.6 million, 1.4 in 18-49 demo, 4% share. <p> Episode 10 - 3.0 million, 1.2 in 18-49 demo, 4% share. (In the finals it was 1.3 in 18-49 demo). <p> Episode 11 - 3.1 million, 1.1 in 18-49 demo.
May 2, 2009, 11:17 a.m. CST
by jimmy rabbitte
but if Espenson wrote the ep, it will definitely suck. She completely wrecked Battlestar Galactica every time she went near it.
May 2, 2009, 11:22 a.m. CST
one of the highest(along with the now canceled T:SCC) but it won't help much. If it pushes it up to a 1.2, I won't be surprised. <p> Not going to help though. Whatever slim hope it had has slipped away - it can't hold on to it's demo. DVD sales over summer won't even keep it going at this point. (Although, I myself was resigned to this when it got shuffled to the "Death Slot". There is seriously no coming back from that.)
May 2, 2009, 11:27 a.m. CST
I hope we get a second season to get some backstory on that!
May 2, 2009, 11:27 a.m. CST
After the 6th episode didn't turn things around (not all the viewers turned in again the following week), it was pretty much finished.
May 2, 2009, 11:35 a.m. CST
at EOnline either. It was one of 5 likely cancelled shows, and it garnered something like 10% of the votes.
May 2, 2009, 11:37 a.m. CST
A hero is someone who has your sympathies. A hero is someone you want to succeed, to achieve what is best for them (and, but not always, for those around them). If you stick to the 1940's Superman portrayal of a hero then this show just may not be for you. <P>This show has heroes but doesn't write them in an archaic way. The fight between two "heroes" in this episode had a great discussion in it about what was the best thing to do, who was the better hero. White hats and blacks hats are easy but not great storytelling.
May 2, 2009, 11:48 a.m. CST
This will continue in the comic books.... good episode but no one really cares....
May 2, 2009, 11:51 a.m. CST
at the 1.4 demo that it had at ep 9, I think it would have had a decent shot at renewal. Dollhouse is an in house Fox production that is inexpensive to make (in TV terms) plus it already has been sold off to run in the UK. However, that dramatic drop from a 1.4 to a 1.2 in the almighty advertising demo between ep 9 & 10 is the real writing on the wall.
May 2, 2009, 11:56 a.m. CST
total amount of viewers these days seem to count as much as DVR viewers, which I mean to say, is not that much.
May 2, 2009, 12:32 p.m. CST
I seems like every episode has a good first 5 minutes. Then tends to drag for the next 30 - 35 minutes. Only to kick your ass in the last 20 minutes. Not my idea of a lasting formula.
May 2, 2009, 1:09 p.m. CST
...no next week. I know! Sucks, right?<br> <br> Thanks for the stats, buffywrestling (Penultimate! It's spreading like Swine Flu!). Not what we wanted to hear. Ah well...they're going out with a bang, at least.<br> <br> I feel like it's getting jerked around a little too (as well as we viewers), since it's still considered a 'on the bubble, 50/50 chance for renewal' as opposed to a 'most likely dead', at least as reproted by Herc a li'l while ago (and I think he got that info from Ausiello). If it's gonna' die, it's gonna' die. Just don't give us that glimmer of hope just to be dashed, especially when the show's ramping up like crazy-go-nuts the last few eps, dammit!<br> <br> Ballard = Omega. I'll second that. And Acker = Whiskey. <br> <br> Also, someone mentioned other Dolls...didn't we see Foxtrot (speaking French and what not) in 'The Awakening' episode?
May 2, 2009, 1:36 p.m. CST
And no it has no heroes. None we can even bother to identify with. Why? Because the hero doesn't even know who she is and changes from week to week. No-to-little growth. No real arc you can follow or that makes much sense. It's just stuff happening and a bunch of fanboys getting excited because they hear the words mythology and go into automatic fanboy fawning, thinking its worth their time and/or adding value to the narrative in general. It has a number of basic problems, but the worst is that it has no moral center. I've loved most everything Joss Whedon has been associated with up till now so I'm just assuming he's trying to do something unique, special, out of the box. But even he knows he's missed the mark because he tried to cover up the stench of bad programming with a half naked Eliza prancing around the screen for weeks on end. (At least something good has come out of this fiasco! ha!) A myopic Whedonite will frame this show as an attempt to aspire to high art which is fine, but its just not working. So let's move on. Name your favorite movie. Low-brain popcorn flick to high-minded celebrated indie and they all have something in common. A moral center. On some level a sense of what is right or wrong (whether the heroes follow that center or not is another story.) Irony in this episode was the little girl calling out the fairytale for being flawed without the show realizing that the same goes for the show itself. Dollhouse is all over the place. And ironically, its in no place. That's not a proper sentence but I'm sticking to it. I'm ranting so excuse me. And stop blaming its failure on being on Friday nights. As though if it was on Monday it would be a #1 show. It's flawed. It's failing and it's missed the mark. That's why it does so poorly. Fridays don't seem to be harming the underwhelmingly awful Ghost Whisperer's ratings. And yet people tune in to watch...most without their DVRs, so let that excuse for Dollhouse fade away as well. A few tweaks in the right direction pre-pilot would have been enough to raise this show at least to the level of average. But unless there is something really clever in mind that turns the show on its ear, this thing was DOA from the first time you saw the opening credits.
May 2, 2009, 1:39 p.m. CST
I had quite a bit of fun in this TB, considering the majority of posts were by V'Sheal, Fain and myself. That was nice discussion, mates! And I didn't curse anyone out and/or call them a retard. <p> I think I'm growing as a person!
May 2, 2009, 1:42 p.m. CST
May 2, 2009, 1:45 p.m. CST
I don't know what country you live in, but last I checked American TV viewers don't place "morality" high on their list of necessary qualities in a TV show. A protagonist with a purpose/desire, yes. A protagonist with a clear sense of right and wrong? Uh, have you ever watched conflicted character drama? <p> The show HAS heroes. We all understand and support Ballard's desire to stop what amounts to human trafficking. We all understand and support Boyd's desire to protect Echo from the outside and the Dollhouse. Echo is a problem, no doubt, but she is gaining a personality each episode. Is it too slow for an average audience? Yes, definitely. But THAT, not "morality" is the main problem.
May 2, 2009, 1:58 p.m. CST
Go, you Andronicus-spoiling, Morpheus-defying sonofabitch!!! I wanted to watch him whup the shit out of shrill Nazi Alan Cumming and that never happened, then I wanted to see him stuff a boot in Lawrence Fishburne's pretentious gob and that never happened, either. (shrill Nazi is the character, I adore Alan Cumming. Fishburne... well, I find him genuinely pretentious...)
May 2, 2009, 1:59 p.m. CST
In general, quotation marks are used to exactly restate what someone has said previously. To paraphrase would be changing my argument completely. Nowhere in my post did I use the word Morality. I said in fact, "A moral center. On some level a sense of what is right or wrong (whether the heroes follow that center or not is another story.)" I'd follow this up with an explanation but I've already said my piece. Clear and plain as day. If you want to misinterpret then have a field day.
May 2, 2009, 2:01 p.m. CST
Eliza hasn't been prancing around half naked for weeks. Heck, she had a shower scene in Angel that was sexier than anything she's done in Dollhouse. <p> Americans want morality in a TV Show? I guess the audience at Jerry Springer are just *morally* outraged when they see that the lesbian nun is pregnant with her fathers baby. <p> And Dollhouse couldn't possibly do better on a Monday. I mean, Monday nights has "Heroes" which after 3 years of mediocre episodes and diminishing viewership, still rates high enough to be renewed.<p> Oh, and Dangerous Liaisons. It's not my favourite movie, but it's in my top 3. Do please find me the moral centre in that.
May 2, 2009, 2:15 p.m. CST
That's what we were talking about earlier...the show is ABOUT the fact there is no moral center. I used the phrase, 'shades of gray', because it's quite indicitve of the lack of any true, 'correct' moral stance in our lives, in the world.<br> <br> It's the fact that we can identify with Ballard that it's 'human trafficking'...but it turns out it's something they've all volunteered for. We could identify with Boyd since he has Echo's best interests at heart...but he knows who signs his checks every month and still accepts them. <br> <br> I'll go one further...I think that Eliza Dushku is the 'star' of this show in that she's the one listed first in the credits and making the most bank. But I don't think Echo is the 'star' character, or even the most interesting. It's an ensemble show, like Firefly (in a slightly different way, you could argue it was a show about Mal because he was the Captain and Nathan Fillion got top billing; but the show wasn't FULLY focused on him...it was on the whole crew).<br> <br> Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly agree Dollhouse has had some bad patches; four episodes in I was ready to quit on it, Whedon-be-damned. But I started to realize...the 'mess' I thought the show was slowly pulled back to show me that's what the show's about. Moral Ambiguity, in many different forms.
May 2, 2009, 2:38 p.m. CST
I agree completely that the show is about ambiguity and it has no moral center. And that is also why most people don't want to watch, or find it compelling. "Moral center" as you've intimated doesn't mean it must be about being good or "Morality" as those above have seem to misinterpreted. But nearly every story (the good ones anyway) is aware of there being a right and wrong, then the heroes act as they will against or for it. In Mafia stories, the moral center is different from the moral center of Star Wars but both have one. Even on Jerry Springer (which was a bad example by V'Shael), the moral center is reflected by the audience lambasting the people on stage for their behavior. It puts their bad behaviour on display then has the audience ridicule them, and all of this is wrapped up with a nice little lesson of the day from Jerry. In most fiction we are able to see where the center of that the particular piece we are reading or watching is through the eyes of the hero. But since the hero in this story has no center herself, and no awareness, it sets the show adrift. And yes, sure, it's an ensemble show, but every ensemble show has a person you'd term the primary hero. And in this case, that character was chosen poorly. It all goes back to Eliza precisely because she is the first in the credits and ALL of the images in the titles are of her. Oddly enough even a show about moral ambiguity needs a moral center of some kind. And the spots where it does appear, Boyd's protecting of Echo, Agent Ballard, aren't strong are "A" story enough to overcome the rest of the mediocre.
May 2, 2009, 2:39 p.m. CST
Dollhouse ain't it. <p> Nevermind that you have Ballard, who was essentailly set up as the "hero" of the piece but used sex as a weapon last week; please consider Dominic. He was set up as a strict puppy following Adelle's orders and trying to kill Echo (manslaughter; not first degree, maybe), yet he was working for the side of good and got closer to infiltrating and disrupting the Dollhouse than Ballard EVER got. <p> Between that and Topher downloading himself into a Doll so he could play laser tag with himself on his birthday, you have some serious twisted shit going on. <p> The first few eps I was purposely digging to find the "deeper meaning" behind the show. At this point, I don't even have to dig anymore - the writers are putting up huge placards saying, "Here Be Monsters". If you are still having trouble reading the sign posts, I don't think you have been paying attention.
May 2, 2009, 2:42 p.m. CST
I posted this after the last dollhouse thread died. So i'll ask again here: Someone mentioned how (since its whedon) this show will probably 'continue' in comics. I HATE Marvel Comics. I do not find any Marvel hero compelling. This is just my opinion--I'm not trying to start a debate, this is just how i feel. So, taking into account that I hate marvel, I did read whedon's X-Men run and thought it was excellent. <br><br> I've been subscribing to buffy and angel comics from the first issues, and have all of the ones that have come out so far. I haven't read a single one, as I intend on rewatching buffy and angel this summer so I can follow it up right away with these comics. so my question is: Are they any good? Are the comics arcs as good as buffy and angel tv arcs? do they actually have the same, or close to the same, feeling that the show had?
May 2, 2009, 2:46 p.m. CST
"A show about moral ambigutity needs a moral centre at times". That's a complete cop out. The premise of the show disregards that notion completely. You are trying to fit your own standards into a show that is trying to portray the fact that people have no standards.
May 2, 2009, 2:53 p.m. CST
I hate just getting into a show and then having the rug pulled out from under you. The show started to hit its stride a little after the 6th episode. Whedon's style always interested me, even though I only watched Firefly(Serenity) before. Could not have cared less about Buffy!
May 2, 2009, 2:56 p.m. CST
kill you r baby puppy quueeer and keeping eat the shit you turkeys whiule they run funny foooted over us like we can't suck toes or keep leather in the cloest and get the dicks docked in the harbors of our bodies. PLWAPLSAPL!
May 2, 2009, 2:59 p.m. CST
I am personally liking Buffy S8. I don't collect the comics individually but get the graphic novel volumns so I am a few months behind. But I ADORE the Jo Chen covers and the last vol. penned by Drew Goddard with Xander and Dracula was made of win. And I think you'd be surprised on how well they captured that formula of a dramatic swell before a "fade to black" commercial break with drawings. <p> Haven't read any Bryan Lynch's penned Angel's yet - waiting for the leather bound hardcover to be issued. Seen some covers though and they look very nice.
May 2, 2009, 3:02 p.m. CST
May 2, 2009, 3:05 p.m. CST
Don't get stuck on Season 1 of Buffy. Watch eps 1,2,7,9 & 12 then go right into Season 2. It picks up tremendously.
May 2, 2009, 3:13 p.m. CST
..is similar to Buffy in that it's slow viewing to begin with. I'm just slogging my way through season 1 now. Bloody Mary and my last episode Home, were the pick of the bunch, but christ, how the hell did this get good ratings at this stage. I'll get to season 2 eventually!
May 2, 2009, 3:14 p.m. CST
May 2, 2009, 3:34 p.m. CST
In my opinion, the comics are nothing like the TV show. There are moments of coolness in the Angel comics (such as what happens with Wesley) but for the most part, they are a huge disappointment. <p> Without going into spoiler territory, in each case the writer clearly felt the need to use standard comic tropes, instead of trying to make them like the original TV shows, just in comic form. <p> I dropped the Angel series about 6 months before I dropped the Buffy series. They just ... weren't the same. You certainly wouldn't need to rewatch the show before reading them.
May 2, 2009, 3:34 p.m. CST
If I misinterupted, you can tell me to piss off or what have you. I'm a bit of a cunt but I certainly didn't want to stifle you or your thoughts. Reading over, I think I leapt to a huge conculsion there. Maybe.
May 2, 2009, 3:44 p.m. CST
ha! That was awesome. I agree, you did leap (kidding). I just decided that while I enjoy a good debate, an Internet talkback probably isn't the best forum for it precisely because an individual's entire argument often gets boiled down to a soundbyte so to speak. For instance I say "moral center" and people start talking about American tv viewers wanting "morality". Which is nowhere near what I stated. But anyway, you are awesome for the honesty. Made me laugh (in a good way). Cheers.
May 2, 2009, 3:57 p.m. CST
Supernatural - get to the last few eps on Season 1. You'll love it. And season 1 gets more enjoyable later when you go back to it on another pass.
May 2, 2009, 4:01 p.m. CST
I'll agree with V'Shael. I've read enough reviews on the comics to know it's Definitely not BTVS. The Angel ones get closer to that show, but still aren't right, IMO. There's some retconning in Season 8 that has me going WTH is Joss thinking? It's like he forgot good portions of seasons 6 and 7. The storylines are like really bad fanfic.
As for Dollhouse, I LOVED last night's ep.!! Though I've enjoyed the whole show to varying degrees so far. And my boyfriend actually watches with me - a miracle, as he's really not into television. LOL, all I had to say, though, was that Eliza was scantily clad on a frequent basis, and he was sold. :D But it's been a good basis for discussion, so it's all good.
May 2, 2009, 4:20 p.m. CST
Acker is Whiskey, imprinted to be a doc, as we suspect, and Victor will probably have a permanent 'in-house' role, now, unless an "outcall" scenario will work with his new facial scaring.
May 2, 2009, 4:23 p.m. CST
The Briar fairytale parallel was apt--and doubly parallel: Helo was the obvious "prince" guy, but it turned out that Alpha was the actual guy who maneuvered his way back in, and USED Helo (instead of the other way around).
May 2, 2009, 4:24 p.m. CST
Well written, snarky stuff. "Until then, we'll suffer from unsightly visibility."
May 2, 2009, 4:26 p.m. CST
and then I hear in this week's ep that his character's last name is Brinks!!<p>Pher Pher Brinks!!<p>He is also probably a doll, programmed with the skill set of the Main Doll Programmer, and I hope Alpha KILLS PHER PHER BINKS with Extreme Prejudice.
May 2, 2009, 4:53 p.m. CST
From his point of view? He's making the meat-sacks unusable as Dolls, and hence (in his mind) freeing them from the cycle of imprinting after imprinting... <p> And so was his reaction to the Doctor also one of disgust? That his plan didn't work, and instead of returning Whiskey to her real persona, she just got stuck as the Doctor personality?
May 2, 2009, 4:59 p.m. CST
Everyone is talking like this show is cancelled already. Is it that cut and dry? Don't really know too much about American ratings. Surely some shows get renewed on low ratings? It does happen right? On just not on FOX? <br> </br> The show gets better and better, but it doesn't help that the worst episode was ep3, which I guess must have put people off. The first 2 were just average, but 3 was plain bad. The last few have been great though, the Victor imprinted with Dominic scene this week was brilliant. People are knocking the characters, why do we always need people to root for anyway? I like the real abiguity of this show. Boyd versus Ballard was a great scene because we understand the motives of BOTH of them. <br> </br> And yeah Amy Acker is totally Whiskey. I feel sorry for Golf, his codename sucks.
May 2, 2009, 5 p.m. CST
One that Adelle download Dominic in Victor, the other is that Acker was already working as a doctor when Alpha escaped but I do think that she is Whiskey.
May 2, 2009, 5:17 p.m. CST
the possibility that the 'real' doctor was killed by alpha and Acker's doll was imprinted with her memories. Just by writing that I realise how non comercial the appeal for this show is. But I agree that he could have been talking about Adelle...or Topher, or Boyd. Whatever it is he wasn't referring the the drink.
May 2, 2009, 5:28 p.m. CST
I am aware of that even though my post above suggests otherwise.
May 2, 2009, 5:44 p.m. CST
Hey look, Josh Schwartz is a talkbacker
May 2, 2009, 6:17 p.m. CST
Thanks for your comments, watched episode 6, great episode. <p> Re comments why this show is struggling in the ratings , for me it all comes down to Eliza and Echo and not the moral issues. You have the main character with no consistent personality, making it very difficult for the audience to connect with. Lost is an ensemble, Dollhouse is Eliza's show.
May 2, 2009, 6:44 p.m. CST
I'm persevering, I am walking a terrible path...to the holy land of the end of season 1. I WILL make it.
May 2, 2009, 6:49 p.m. CST
by Magnum Opus
Or is Victor not one of the best acted characters on TV? He's nailed the myriad roles he's had on the show, especially that episode where he was all distraught because getting boners meant he was doing something wrong, but he couldn't figure out why he was disappointing the 'House staff. It's probably a moot point since there's likely only 1 ep left, but if the show gets renewed I'll be pissed if he's not a regular part of it.
May 2, 2009, 7:02 p.m. CST
I'm going to come out and say it (regarding dollhouse, just keep reading before you pass judgement and ban me again--btw i deserved to be banned) What I'm going to admit is that I have been saving up and have accumulated all the episodes of Dollhouse on my computer, and have not watched any, yet. The only reason I came around this talkback most weeks was because of a certain show, and also Media Messiah...(who called my genuine attempt to help him get a grip on reality an attack instead of responding to a single thing I said, and this week I see that he now believes yet another talkbacker is a writer for dollhouse, which now makes two talkbackers dollhouse writers)<br><br> But I, like many others (I'd assume) thought that because its whedon and on fox, it would be doomed and cancelled before finding its footing (like buffy took a season to do)... when I heard about the rewrites and reshoots, I felt even more like it'd be cancelled, then after i heard it was put in the friday timeslot, I was almost completely sure it'd be cancelled. I really want to like it, but I hope that one of two things doesn't happen: 1) I hope it won't suck--whedon is DAMN good at whatever he does... I LOVE buffy and angel soooo much. 2) I hope it doesn't have a season finale that skyrockets the show to a new level of awesomeness, only for it to be cancelled. I want to know answers to those concerns before I give it a chance, because i know it could be great, but don't want to be disappointed that just when it started kicking ass, its done. I do hope they provide a fair amount of closure at the end, if it is cancelled... if its not, I want an incredible season finale that opens up tons of doors that all lead to awesomeness.<br><br> In order to express how much I like whedon, and what shows his greatness, I look at Firefly I downloaded it all after it was cancelled and my love for firefly came a few episodes in--I had been thinking: 'ok this is entertaining' and then after watching something like episode 4, I paused for a second and it hit me like a ton of bricks, and then like a tidal wave, and i realized: I LOVE THIS FUCKING SHOW! Then I realized there was a movie made, and it wasn't that far away from opening, and got way pumped up for it. <br><br>Which brought me to this: for my money, what showed how incredibly brilliant, talented and awesome at his job Whedon is, I turn to how great Serenity was. My little brother likes great comedies and straight up drama and action movies for him are hit and miss. He in no way, shape or form had ANY appreciation for scifi. I dragged him with me to see serenity, and he was suprised at how much he liked it. This wasn't proof of whedon's greatness, alone. What showed Whedon's greatness is that he somehow (and i will never really know how) made Serenity a movie a NON scifi fan who hadn't watched a minute of the show could watch it and really like it, without feeling like he missed something. Then, whedon took his greatness to a whole new level when I left the movie and realized that he had given me complete and total closure for the show, and had tied up all the loose ends. I confidently say that you could count all the writer / directors who could pull that off on one hand. OH yeah--he had a minimal budget to work with<br><br>On a sidenote, Castle is great IMHO, and Fillion is fantastic in his role, and (for once) we have a lead and tough detective chick who is gorgeous but believable. Olivia from Fringe is alright in her role, but she's not hot. The lead detective on Mentalist sucks and has one of those mouths that makes it look like she's constantly frowning.<br><br> And (after all that) SHAZAM-- That Jennifer Connely / kingsly movie 'House of Sand and Fog' had no clear moral center at all, and that's what made that movie so fucking good. Shows or movies with no moral center are done from time to time, but very few of them work... but the ones that do can make for some of the best drama you'll see. <br><br>So, in closing, I will not watch dollhouse until I know its fate and know if its worth watching.
May 2, 2009, 7:09 p.m. CST
thats what happens when i post on a message board shortly after taking my aderal... i write novels. I feel like long posts are pretensious, so i feel a bit pretensious right now. But hey, at least its on topic, and doesn't mention a certain show and wasn't written as an attempt to get Media Messiah to come to terms with something. I've realized that posting about a certain show and/or trying to get through to MM are both complete and total lost causes.
May 2, 2009, 7:11 p.m. CST
by Magnum Opus
As background I fucking love Firefly, and at the same time am baffled by Buffy's popularity. Never watched Angel, and though I don't read comics anymore a friend made me read Whedon's X-Men run, and I loved it. So, I obviously like Whedon's work, but not because it's him, and I won't watch a show just because he's attached to it. That said, Dollhouse oscillates between just below average to great. The worst episodes aren't very good, but certainly aren't horrible. The best episodes are about as enjoyable as a TV show can be in its first season. Not trying to convince you to watch it, just giving a middle-ground take from a non-Whedonite, and non-vitriol-spewing-hate-anything-Whedon-touches person.
May 2, 2009, 7:38 p.m. CST
It is getting better. However, a lot of the episodes were mediocre.
May 2, 2009, 8:10 p.m. CST
Shit on a shingle, man, how is my argument invalid simply because I used a different noun? If a show HAS a "moral center" (your words exactly, is that better?) then doesn't it necessarily follow that it deals in morality? Instead of arguing semantics that don't affect my position or yours in ANY way (unless you can prove otherwise, and good luck with that), why don't you address the position? No, it's easier to just say "well, you quoted me wrong, so I won't engage." Which is the classic first line of defense of a person who doesn't actually have a defensible position. <p> Not that you need to engage me since others here such as buffywrestling and wycklen et al have made my point. I guess they didn't get your wrath because they didn't "paraphrase" you.
May 2, 2009, 8:17 p.m. CST
heh! That was great. I concur, you did jump (joking). I just concluded that while I have fun with a good rational argument, a web talkback likely isn't the best location for it exactly because a person's whole stated position often gets reduced to a quip so to speak. For example I say "moral center" and persons begin blathering about US tv watchers desiring "morality". Which is nowhere close to what I said. But in any case, you are spectacular for the truthfulness. Made me chuckle (in a positive way). Thanks and good night.
May 2, 2009, 8:18 p.m. CST
Perhaps "asshole" was a bit much.
May 2, 2009, 8:35 p.m. CST
<p>Great example. And I also loved that movie.</p> <p>Sure a few work and you're right, when they do, they are usually amazing.</p> <p>The film certainly does approach the idea of ambiguity. As I've stated before though I actually think it establishes where the moral is, then has the characters vacillating between it. But in essence you are definitely right.</p>
May 2, 2009, 8:43 p.m. CST
You are correct in one thing, and about that one thing, you're right--a few aren't interpreting your point. 'Moral center' does not mean 'morality' at all. A PERFECT example of an immoral 'moral center' would be Dexter. He has his morals regarding his ultimately immoral nature. The fact that he has this moral-immorality and thus is a VERY compelling moral center. I think that's the kind of interpretation you were going for. But i still stick to what I said--there have been some great movies and television without a moral center, which is tough, but when done right its like a breath of fresh air.
May 2, 2009, 8:45 p.m. CST
victor was hotter when he had his nico bellic accent.
May 2, 2009, 8:54 p.m. CST
<p>necgray, your mindunderstanding of my usage of the term doesn't make you're right, it just means you misunderstood my usage of the term.</p><p>It also means I probably could have used a better phrase to convey what I was thinking.</p><p>And to answer your question. No. It does not. And if your main argument was about that one phrase them it would probably be best to use the exact term instead of paraphrase.<p>Nevertheless I have clarified what I meant by the term, and am moving on now.<p>
May 2, 2009, 9:22 p.m. CST
The way I see it, the biggest problem this show has up to this point is the absence of what--in my opinion--has made Whedon's other shows so great: the family unit. Buffy, Angel and Firefly have all been centered around a cohesive "family" unit. Often as not that family was dysfunctional to some degree or another, but the family unit still managed to ground the show and provide it meaning. So far, Dollhouse hasn't replicated that, and I'm not really sure that it could (and maybe it doesn't want to).
May 2, 2009, 10:17 p.m. CST
shazam-- out of curiosity, was my example of Dexter the kind of point you've been trying to make?
May 2, 2009, 11:18 p.m. CST
by Magnum Opus
Hmm, that's a good point, and something I hadn't considered. The family theme is also present in his Astonishing X-Men run, which was excellent.
May 2, 2009, 11:19 p.m. CST
yes 100%. Moral center is relative depending on the story. And I do also agree with you wholeheartedly. Any story that breaks the "rules" and still manages to be compelling has done something truly great.
May 3, 2009, 1:28 a.m. CST
Or maybe NBC is just more desperate than Fox.
May 3, 2009, 1:47 a.m. CST
Whedon seems to excel at "family" relationships, that is definetely missing here, many people have criticsed the star wars prequels on many items but again the big thing missing for me was the lack of a "family", together and up against it, and a family that included someone who was a bit grey, Han.
May 3, 2009, 4:30 a.m. CST
i disagree with u about not being able to identify with ECHO because of the different people she is week to week...in every episode she is retaining more and more, fridays episode she recalled memories from several different imprints..her journey is our journey....i have to agree with whoever said that youre not watching much of the show...actually your lack of knowledge beyond the main concept almost tells me u havent watched any of it but read the summaries of the episodes...lots of us love this show, just because its not up to what u expect it to be doesnt make us whedon groupies, it just makes u a bitter fanboy grasping for attention on the internet....they hav a term for u....keyboard commando AKA loser
May 3, 2009, 5:44 a.m. CST
Anyone else catch Topher's use of the word 'Frak' in this episode? I guess that would be Jane Espenson's influence. Is this the first time 'Frak' has been used outside of Battlestar Galactica? How awesome would it be if all TV shows and movies started using it and the censors wouldn't be able to do anything about it because technically it's not a swear word.
May 3, 2009, 6:42 a.m. CST
They used it on Veronica Mars for a while.
May 3, 2009, 10:46 a.m. CST
since that content was just plugged into the ep as attempt to get the mommies and grannies to watch the show.
May 3, 2009, 11:01 a.m. CST
The word has recently been referenced numerous times in popular culture including in Scrubs, 30 Rock, Dilbert, Veronica Mars, Gilmore Girls, Robot Chicken, the English dub of Crayon Shin Chan, The OC, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, the Gaunt's Ghosts novel series and in Marvel Comics' World War Hulk: Prologue. It also appears once in the television series Batman Beyond, in an episode titled "Final Cut". And it has appeared in the Elfquest spinoff comic Rebels.
May 3, 2009, 11:03 a.m. CST
That content was just plugged into the ep as attempt to lay down subtext relating to Carolines self-rescue, as well as the misdirection of Alpha's pseudo-rescue of Echo. <p> Obviously, this would go over the head of someone who doesn't watch the show with their brain engaged.
May 3, 2009, 11:30 a.m. CST
Wow, that was sad. I hope you're joking.
May 3, 2009, 11:32 a.m. CST
Even if there is some resonance, I didn't need that content. <P> With brain engaged, I don't need slop disrupting ep's flow. <P> Yet one more reason that Dollhouse is dead.
May 3, 2009, 12:45 p.m. CST
by Media Messiah
This is the second episode in the series, that has featured something about a little girl having been molested? Did we really need a reprise of Episode 1 in that regard? Although this new episode was drastically better, one episode about a molested child is enough for the season, and we have only seen 11 episodes, so far--what is with the focus here???
May 3, 2009, 12:57 p.m. CST
sigh. When *I* said morality, I meant the subject of morals, the idea of right and wrong. Which is something a "moral center" would consider. Dexter is a show that deals in morality. The subject. <p> And my POINT was that American audiences don't need a protagonist with a sense of right and wrong to identify with that protagonist. What they DO need is a protagonist with a clear desire/goal. And THAT, not a moral center, is what made Dollhouse difficult to pick up for most people.
May 3, 2009, 2:45 p.m. CST
am i the only one who thinks that Caroline is Ballard's sister? i've been convinced of it since the Patton Oswald episode. Ballard's obsession is with finding Caroline. finding the Dollhouse of stoppin the human trafficers or whatever is totally secondary to that, it seems to me. He seeks Caroline specifically, and finding the Dollhouse is just the means to that end. Does anyone else interpret this the same way?
May 3, 2009, 3:12 p.m. CST
I thought was used to tell the story of the Prince coming to save the Princess. Execpt with the twist that it was Alpha, not Ballard, who turned out to be the "price" in this case. I thought it was fairly good story telling but it would have been much more effective to those that didn't know Alan was Alpha. I hardly found it to be the "feature" of the episode at all, just another allegory being invoked. I mean, I guess you could have skipped it but it really makes the episode less powerful if you did.
May 3, 2009, 3:15 p.m. CST
I don't think Caroline is his sister. Unless he is having weird sex dreams about his sister, and *ew*. But their is definitly something there, which makes Ballard more sympathic to Echo's circumstances than to November's.
May 3, 2009, 3:38 p.m. CST
ok, somewhere along the line, i missed the weird sex dreams, but i have missed 3 or 4 eps, lol. one time Mellie asked Ballard if he was thinkin about Caroline while they were having sex, and he was real emphatic about tellin her that he was certainly not thiking about Caroline at that point. that made me think Sister. with the additional info about the weird sex dreams, that sends me back to what i was actually thinking to begin with. Ballard and Caroline were married. just a thought. but, Caroline's his obsession, not the Dollhouse itself.
May 3, 2009, 3:39 p.m. CST
Despite knowing better, i allowed myself to get attached to this show, knowing full well it's fate on FOX. please joss, PLEASE, do not create anything and sell it to FOX!!! They have killed so many great shows. I fear Dollhouse is the latest of the body count.
May 3, 2009, 4 p.m. CST
I totally understand your point. As far as what I typed, I was only referring to shazam's point about a moral center. As I said above, I haven't watched a single episode of dollhouse yet, so in no way was i trying to apply shazam's point to dollhouse, I just thought the 'moral center' point was a concept worth looking into (and cited house of sand and fog as an example of how his point doesn't apply to everything, and then cited dexter as an example of where it does work well) I think that a movie or show can be deeply rooted by a moral center OR (as you said) a clear desire/goal, or both, on occasion. Say what you will about which one of these applies to dollhouse--i wouldn't know, and wasn't trying to post like I did know.
May 3, 2009, 4:06 p.m. CST
if i were whedon and made a deal with fox, i would demand a second season... maybe set a VERY, very low bar of incentives that the show could easily beat. If not, I would shop it to FX (would be my first choice, as dollhouse appears like it has the tone/subject matter consistent with the channel's programming) HBO, Showtime... even USA, possibly TNT... or, CW--why not? Although I may have read or heard that dushku had a deal with fox, and whedon did the show to get her work... so that might explain why it was on fox which has given whedon the shaft.
May 3, 2009, 4:08 p.m. CST
As many have pointed out, the point of the focus was about empowering the victim to be the source of her own salvation. <p> It also introduced us to the idea that the Dollhouse could manufacture a "healed" personality, even an idealised one, of an abused victim. <p> In many ways, it serves as a good bookend to the first episode, to show us how far our understanding of the situation has come.
May 3, 2009, 4:19 p.m. CST
Great point re: bookending! Was just reading something pertaining to that, and some other things we've been talking about. Here's the link: <p> http://tinyurl.com/cwmv7f
May 3, 2009, 4:58 p.m. CST
But I still think that the content is being inserted for some demographic appeal, which is not going to pay off. <P> Last week--week before kentucky Derby--we got a horse story. What's next, a Memorial Day hook?
May 3, 2009, 5 p.m. CST
It shows how much some actors are capable of doing but rarely get much chance of doing with tight TV scripts.
May 3, 2009, 5:06 p.m. CST
The dollhouse is taking advantage of people who are so lost and troubled that they "volunteer" to be slaves. The fact that they choose slavery automatically makes them unfit to make such a choice. Somewhere along their lives these individuals have lost their dignity, all is not right in their minds! And it is shocking that so many people on this board fail to see how wrong it is to "volunteer" for slavery. Would you accept it if your daughter volunteered for something like that? Where do most posts on this talkback come from? From USA, the land of the proud and free? What irony then that a foreigner has to be the one to state the following... Freedom and dignity, are basic human rights to be valued higher than money! And the fact that psychologically disturbed individuals volunteer (because only a troubled person living in a troubled society would surrender his body and soul in exchange for dollars) for it does not make the dollhouse "good". It just makes it that more tragic! Looked at from this perspective this show, and Josh, and these talkbacks have presented us with an interesting posibility to study how human dignity is valued currently in the USA.
May 3, 2009, 5:24 p.m. CST
The favorite ambition of teenaged Russian male was to be a contract killer, and the favorite ambition of teenaged Russian female was to be a hard-currency prostitute. <P> US may be collapsing into similar territory. Poverty draft has raised recruiting for military, and politicians are keeping the brothel madams busy.
May 3, 2009, 6:10 p.m. CST
I didn't take it as anything but support for another dude's POV. It's cool. I just wanted to establish for both shazam and you that I did, in fact, understand the point shazam was making. I just rephrased it in a way that apparently he didn't appreciate. Which is fine, but then to act like I didn't "get it" instead of addressing my counter-point pissed me off. And I even appreciate a semantic argument most of the time, provided it's accompanied by a secondary argument. But brushing me off just for that? I call shenanigans.
May 3, 2009, 11:55 p.m. CST
I mean, really - put it out of its misery already.
May 4, 2009, 3:57 a.m. CST
Stop complaining about it. It's got one more week of a death rattle and then its done.
May 4, 2009, 4:03 a.m. CST
"And it is shocking that so many people on this board fail to see how wrong it is to "volunteer" for slavery." <p> I think that's one of the things the show was going to address. If you can separate out identity from the meat-sack we travel in, then renting your meatsack becomes a more plausible option. <p> Worst case scenario is that your mindstate is somehow lost from the computer network. Because if your body is damaged or dies, they can always set your mindstate up in a different body as compensation. <p> This breaking down of the nature of our identity, with the aid of technology not THAT far into our future, has the potential for compelling drama. <p> Business men paying large sums of money to have their mind-states recorded. Surviving assasination attempts. Recording foreign leaders mindstates, uploading them, editing them, then downloading them into the bodies. <p> It would not be far fetched to say that people with that level of technology could pretty much run the planet.
May 4, 2009, 4:17 a.m. CST
As confirmed by Kevin Smith on his twitter. <p> http://twitter.com/ElizaPatricia <p> So now Media Messiah can start pestering the real girl with marriage requests, instead of thinking she's trawling the AICN talkbacks looking for love...
May 4, 2009, 7:45 a.m. CST
I completely missed that the first time. I had no idea she was a doll. Does that explain why Alpha's gimmick is to slash up their marketable faces to designate them as such and make them unusable?
May 4, 2009, 10:46 a.m. CST
This show gets BETTER AND BETTER AND BETTER. Wow.
May 4, 2009, 12:16 p.m. CST
May 4, 2009, 1:44 p.m. CST
by Anthony W
Can we get a Supernatural talkback?
May 5, 2009, 1:22 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
They could have introduced this theme in the first episode, and imparted all of this information and moved on. They didn't...and thus, by resurfacing this theme of child molestation, it only serves as a rewrite of the first episode? As for Dollhouse's ratings falling last Friday, there are several factors to weigh here!!!; 1) Wolverine opened on Friday, and since the show shares much of the same action/adventure/fantasy/sci-fi demo, many of the show's regular viewers, both females and males, were at the movies, watching Wolverine, instead. 2) Last week's episode, the stand alone, was really jarring on viewers as it played like a Buffy episode in respect to genre, that being the supernatural genre. The episode also reminded me of The Ghost Whisperer...and perhaps that is just what the producers of the series, as well as the network executives, were up to--maybe they wanted the show to play like Ghost Whisperer, so as to draw accidental viewers who might mistaken it for the Ghost Whisperer, while channel surfing...and might stay and get into the Dollhouse mythology, or until, at least, they figured-out (the bait and switch) and that it wasn't the show that they had intended to watch? And 3) The pre-emption of Dollhouse two weeks ago had to hurt the show, but Dollhouse has had a problem all along with the varying quality of the episodes, from week to week, the ultimate foil of the ratings.<BR><BR> The makers of the show, and the network, had a habit of scheduling a bad episode, and then a good one--followed by another bad episode, then a great episode, and then a bad episode again? You can't build good word of mouth on a show that is that schizophrenic, in terms of quality control, or lack thereof. If I was a Fox exec, I'd take the hit, and remove the episodes that were questionable, in terms of quality, like the first episode, and reshoot versions of them...or cannibalize them for parts, as Joss has done with the original pilot episode. Take the first episode of Dollhouse, that did air...(that would be the second pilot episode of the series)--they should have been pulled, and never should have been broadcast. The same is true of the third episode about the singer...as neither of these episodes were up to snuff...and the same is true of the college virus episode, which was absolutely, and completely embarrassing. Fix those episodes, or trash them, all of them, as if they never existed, and even the Ghost Whisperer rip-off, and then re-air the other episodes sequentially, as best they, the network, can. I suspect that new viewers to the series will never miss a beat in regard to the bad episodes not airing in rotation, with the more superior episodes, as they never added anything to the series to begin with. <BR><BR>Lastly, as I have said frequently before, the show also needs to be placed after lead-ins like American Idol, and or, The Simpsons, or even The Family Guy. If the network is serious, and they really want to give this series a real go, and give it a chance, therein, that is what they will do, and should have done already.<BR><BR>In terms of Dollhouse, it seems that Joss has had a longer than normal learning curve, and that he is now in the right territory toward turning things around, but Fox has got to help him to do that by taking these necessary steps to accomplish the end goal, very much how they placed extra money into the film Wolverine, and did extensive reshoots to fix the problems with the movie. It just seems to me that by investing an extra 5 miilion in Dollhouse for these fixes, it can, and will, serve to turn things around for the series.
May 5, 2009, 2:25 a.m. CST
It takes a bizarre mentality to believe that 5 minutes of a abuse storyline in last weeks episode somehow constitutes an entire re-write of the first episode. There's no opinion in this. You're just wrong about that. <p> As for the Wolvie premiere, this is a common risk of Friday night programming, since it's the start of the weekend. However Wolverines premiere is a single data point in an obvious downward trend. It would be foolishly optimistic to think that if Wolverine was premiering a few weeks from now, that last weeks Dollhouse ratings would have been an improvement on what has gone before. <p> Drawing accidental viewers. Interesting theory, if you assume that the average viewer can't tell what show he is looking at, who any of the people on the screen are, or possibly what station they're looking at. Might I suggest that if Fox were looking to somehow steal or trap these unwary viewers, they'll also have to start competing with the microwave and washer/dryer, because who knows what these fools may wind up watching, thinking it's an Ally Mc Beal reunion show. <p> You seem to have a bizarre idea about how scheduling works. The network and producers did not sandwich good and bad alternating episodes deliberately. Check the production code numbers on the episodes. <p> While there may in fact be Quality Control issues on the show, these problems exist for many many shows. The main reason being cost. Most shows do not have the Babylon 5 model, where one man is creating the ideas and scripts, planning the scripts and story beats in advance. A show like Dollhouse certainly doesn't work like that. Episodes are farmed out to different writers (of varying quality) and it's too costly in money AND time, to simply look at the script and say "It doesn't work, we need to redo from start" <p> I mean, from your post above, you wanted to trash 4 episodes out of a 12 episode run. How do you possibly think Joss could hope to get his show renewed if his series came in either 4 episodes short or 33% over budget? Honestly, it's like you have NO idea how television works. <p> Given the choice between throwing good money after bad and giving Dollhouse a further 5 million, or saving that money and developing a new series, I know what I'd rather choose. <p> I just have NO clue where you get the impression that there's a cross over audience between American Idol / Family Guy and Dollhouse. It's like you think viewers don't have remote controls, and once ONE show is on, they'll be stuck viewing the same channel for the whole night, regardless of what the next hour holds. Do you think American viewers are too fat to reach for the remote now? That's not how strong lead-ins work. Good grief.
May 5, 2009, 4:29 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I was refering strictly to the child molestation part of the story arc from last Friday's episode of Dollhouse, and the 2nd plot episode of the series, not the entire episode. In the first episode of Dollhouse, the child molestation theme played as the A-Story Arc, but in last Friday's episode, it played as the B-Story Arc...and as arcs go, it was a rewrite of the first episode. Both featuring mind prints of little girls...who were both molested, no less, and Echo was imprinted with the adult thought patterns of both little girls. Now what an amazing coincidence??? You can't dance around that, V'Shael. You can assail me all you want, but the facts are specific--and the facts, are the facts. <BR><BR>As per Wolverine, even the studio analysts would give me that, if asked.<BR><BR>And as far as the issue of bait and switch with shows, it happens all the time. Have you ever seen dance shows, or award shows broadcast on the same night? That isn't by coincidence, it is done by design...by rival networks to try and steal the audience of the competition. If they can even get a ratings point, that is all that matters, it could mean millions of dollars. They want to fool the channel surfing viewer who isn't paying close attention to the stations they are watching, specifically. To this day, I know people who are regular viewers of shows like 2 And A Half Men who ask me every week, "What network, and what channel is that on?" Now if you were to program a similar looking series in the same time slot on a different network, with various channels on broadcast television, and hundreds on cable and satellite, it is easy to pick-up channel surfers who miss dial their remotes and assume on a glimpse, when they aren't paying close attention to the tv, thanks to distractions dealing with the kids, cooking, talking on the telephone, and or, surfering on the net, etc. As a consequence, they will, as a result, often find themselves turning to the wrong channel after eyeing a show that may seem similar to the show they intended to watch, or have been watching...that very night. <BR><BR>As for the quality control issues...in respect to Dollhouse, I have never before seen such wide swings in quality control on any series before. Previously, I have witnessed shows that either have been bad...ala the new Knight Rider, or they have been consistently good or great, like Chuck...or overhyped unfunny trash like Friends--but Dollhouse has been, bad here, good there, bad yet again, and then excellent...if not downright brilliant, and then...just so-so, followed by embarrassingly bad, then so-so to good, and blam...the show delivers a great episode once more??? Even The Love Boat, The A-Team, VIP, Bay Watch, and Fantasy Island were more consistent than that--hell...even The Dukes Of Hazzard...and that was some of the worst television of all time, but at least they found their pace, and played to their demo...and audience therein, consistently, largely without fail. They gave their audiences what they expected. Then there are the great shows like The Original Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Star Trek, Saint Elsewhere, The Saint, Hillstreet Blues, Wild Wild West, Taxi, Mission Impossible, Fraiser, Xena, Buffy, King Of Queens, Three's Company, Bonanza, I Love Lucy, Dallas, and the new Galactica. They were all largely consistent. Sure they had their occasionally bad episodes, but most of the time they delivered without fail...but Dollhouse, has been half and half; bad to so-so here, good to great...over there, and a series can't survive like that. <BR><BR>I know how television works as I grew-up in it. Dollhouse has a good idea, it is a diamond in the rough, and I think it worth Fox saying forget 4 to 5 bad episodes--sacrificing them to make this series a hit. They need to say, "We will take the hit, and invest another 5 million to fix those bad episodes and reboot them for later broadcast and sale on DVD, or drop them. What is important is attempting to lock the tone of the series and change public perceptions of the show. DVD and reruns are forever, and you can't build on a broken first season like this...and move on, you have to fix what is broken...or trash what is broken, and then move on." <BR><BR>The concept of the series is worth saving. How is it that a terrible, terrible show like Scrubs, which is unwatchable, got on the air and is still on the air, from one network to another...or the borefest which is the office, but we can't save Dollhouse??? The show is just missing some things, like romance. It is also missing a consciously awake hero you can root for, and a villain, or villains, you can root against. People love Chuck, a similarly themed show, because he, Chuck, is our entry character to the series. We see him in pain, we know his loves, his failures and his triumphs, and we love it because Chuck stands in place of any one of us, he is us. The failure of Dollhouse is the fact that Echo is unconscious and unaware, and audiences can't relate to that, as you can't root for a vegetable or someone who is essentially a comatose robot or a puppet. <BR><BR>As for the crossover audience, it is the mainstream pop audience. They are the same folks who watch American Idol, ABC's Dancing With The Stars, The Simpsons and Family Guy...and then go out and watch Wolverine, or will watch the new Star Trek, The Transformers, Angels and Demons, Harry Potter, and Terminator 4, James Bond, The Bourne Identity franchise, Batman, and Spiderman, etc. That pop culture oriented audience that loves Idol and The Simpsons, loves those action/adventure/fantasy and sci-fi films--all the things that Dollhouse is in terms of genre elements, thus...it makes perfect sense to try and see if that audience will watch Dollhouse, and the only way to do that is to program the show as the closer behind these shows, the most popular programs on Fox. The network would know within two weeks if such an effort is working...thus it is worth a try!!!
May 5, 2009, 4:33 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I was refering strictly to the child molestation part of the story arc from last Friday's episode of Dollhouse, and the 2nd plot episode of the series, not the entire episode. In the first episode of Dollhouse, the child molestation theme played as the A-Story Arc, but in last Friday's episode, it played as the B-Story Arc...and as arcs go, it was a rewrite of the first episode. Both featuring mind prints of little girls...who were both molested, no less, and Echo was imprinted with the adult thought patterns of both little girls. Now what an amazing coincidence??? You can't dance around that, V'Shael. You can assail me all you want, but the facts are specific--and the facts, are the facts. <BR><BR> As per Wolverine, even the studio analysts would give me that, if asked. <BR><BR> And as far as the issue of bait and switch with shows, it happens all the time. Have you ever seen dance shows, or award shows broadcast on the same night? That isn't by coincidence, it is done by design...by rival networks to try and steal the audience of the competition. If they can even get a ratings point, that is all that matters, it could mean millions of dollars. They want to fool the channel surfing viewer who isn't paying close attention to the stations they are watching, specifically. To this day, I know people who are regular viewers of shows like 2 And A Half Men who ask me every week, "What network, and what channel is that on?" Now if you were to program a similar looking series in the same time slot on a different network, with various channels on broadcast television, and hundreds on cable and satellite, it is easy to pick-up channel surfers who miss dial their remotes and assume on a glimpse, when they aren't paying close attention to the tv, thanks to distractions dealing with the kids, cooking, talking on the telephone, and or, surfering on the net, etc. As a consequence, they will, as a result, often find themselves turning to the wrong channel after eyeing a show that may seem similar to the show they intended to watch, or have been watching...that very night. <BR><BR> As for the quality control issues...in respect to Dollhouse, I have never before seen such wide swings in quality control on any series before. Previously, I have witnessed shows that either have been bad...ala the new Knight Rider, or they have been consistently good or great, like Chuck...or overhyped unfunny trash like Friends--but Dollhouse has been, bad here, good there, bad yet again, and then excellent...if not downright brilliant, and then...just so-so, followed by embarrassingly bad, then so-so to good, and blam...the show delivers a great episode once more??? Even The Love Boat, The A-Team, VIP, Bay Watch, and Fantasy Island were more consistent than that--hell...even The Dukes Of Hazzard...and that was some of the worst television of all time, but at least they found their pace, and played to their demo...and audience therein, consistently, largely without fail. They gave their audiences what they expected. Then there are the great shows like The Original Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Star Trek, Saint Elsewhere, The Saint, Hillstreet Blues, Wild Wild West, Taxi, Mission Impossible, Fraiser, Xena, Buffy, King Of Queens, Three's Company, Bonanza, I Love Lucy, Dallas, and the new Galactica. They were all largely consistent. Sure they had their occasionally bad episodes, but most of the time they delivered without fail...but Dollhouse, has been half and half; bad to so-so here, good to great...over there, and a series can't survive like that. <BR><BR> I know how television works as I grew-up in it. Dollhouse has a good idea, it is a diamond in the rough, and I think it worth Fox saving, forget 4 to 5 bad episodes--sacrificing them to make this series a hit is just the cost of doing business. They need to say, "We will take the hit, and invest another 5 million to fix those bad episodes and reboot them for later broadcast and sale on DVD, or drop them. What is important is attempting to lock the tone of the series and change public perceptions of the show. DVD and reruns are forever, and you can't build on a broken first season like this...and move on, you have to fix what is broken...or trash what is broken, and then move on." <BR><BR> The concept of the series is worth saving. How is it that a terrible, terrible show like Scrubs, which is unwatchable, got on the air and is still on the air, from one network to another...or the borefest which is the office, but we can't save Dollhouse??? The show is just missing some things, like romance. It is also missing a consciously awake hero you can root for, and a villain, or villains, you can root against. People love Chuck, a similarly themed show, because he, Chuck, is our entry character to the series. We see him in pain, we know his loves, his failures and his triumphs, and we love it because Chuck stands in place of any one of us, he is us. The failure of Dollhouse is the fact that Echo is unconscious and unaware, and audiences can't relate to that, as you can't root for a vegetable or someone who is essentially a comatose robot or a puppet. <BR><BR> As for the crossover audience, it is the mainstream pop audience. They are the same folks who watch American Idol, ABC's Dancing With The Stars, The Simpsons and Family Guy...and then go out and watch Wolverine, or will watch the new Star Trek, The Transformers, Angels and Demons, Harry Potter, and Terminator 4, James Bond, The Bourne Identity franchise, Batman, and Spiderman, etc. That pop culture oriented audience that loves Idol and The Simpsons, loves those action/adventure/fantasy and sci-fi films--all the things that Dollhouse is in terms of genre elements, thus...it makes perfect sense to try and see if that audience will watch Dollhouse, and the only way to do that is to program the show as the closer behind these shows, the most popular programs on Fox. The network would know within two weeks if such an effort is working...thus it is worth a try!!! <BR><BR>
May 5, 2009, 10:21 a.m. CST
brilliant. Now this is the show I've been waiting for. The last few episodes have led up to this - and Fox would be morons not to give this a second season. With Tudyk and Dushku as the new Spike and Dru, what more could you want? Like others have stated, I loved the ambiguity of the Boyd/Ballard fight. It's brutal and you don't know who to root for. <p> And oh. my. god. I love Alan Tudyk. I love his line deliveries, his improvisations, his non-verbal expressions (for ex: the Jenna Elfman line and what he does right after it). More Alan. All the time. He's just fantastic in everything he does. As both hero and villain. What's interesting is that we didn't see him 'become' Alpha. He just stepped out and was. So does that mean he was just pretending to be Kepler? Or was he actually programmed to be him and then somehow downloaded his Alpha program. <p>The actor playing Victor did a really good job as Dominic, had his speech patterns down and everything. That whole 'Whiskey' thing is also interesting. This may have been stated here, but wouldn't it be interesting if Saunders is not a doll, but used to be a doll, fulfilled her contract and stayed in the Dollhouse. I wonder if they're able to download skills and information without losing the personality, a la Matrix. But man, I can't wait to the finale, I hope they air the epilogue, and get renewed for a second season. This show could easily match with Fringe as a scifi lineup and do well for the network if they take it off the Friday death slot. I want to see a renewal and a clear push to get people to watch. I'm talking Idol audience. Make it happen, Fox!
May 5, 2009, 1:55 p.m. CST
I have been thinking that we have no clue he ever leaves, not even on his birthday. That may have been why there was that question between Boyd and Adelle about being okay with him programming a doll for his night of fun. I don't know why else this would have come up. I also thought of this again when Alpha could not use Topher's computer because of all of the passwords. What better way then to create a profile of a "super intellect" to keep things running smoothly. Also, Topher keet stressing the importance of the routine when working with the dolls. Just thinking...
May 6, 2009, 2:48 a.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
I really think this show is going to get picked up and you're going to have to eat shit cupcakes for a while. <p> Also Topher aint all that bad.
May 6, 2009, 4:54 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I want the show to be picked-up, that is my point in posting, but it won't prosper, even if it does get picked-up, unless...however, Fox and Mutant Enemy adjust, and make the types of changes I am suggesting, and have been suggesting all along! Hell, in a new article, even Time Magazine Online has agreed with the new ensemble look of the show, something that I have been suggesting since early on in the series run. Further, TV Guide Online has just pointed-out in it's letter blogging column that there are precious few characters to root for on Dollhouse...another point I have been making from the very beginning--as something that is hurting the show.<BR><BR>All of my critiques have been accurate and on point, and the press in article, after article, has stressed similar criticisms of the show--when I was well ahead of the curve on observing the show's faults and suggesting ways of how these problems can be mended. So clearly, considering that the press is expressing views that nearly match mine, again...point for point--in that light, my suggestions aren't off-base, in fact, they are right on the money, and have been forward thinking when the rest of you said nothing, or just chose sides--one of either pro-Whedon zealotry...and the other, anti-Whedon zealotry, neither side having any real interest in speaking a truth that could help the series, rather, both sides had pre-conceived agendas, stating that Whedon is a God without flaw, or a talentless hack. I however, have been trying to offer constructive unbiased criticisms, and to encourage the producers and execs...where and when...they have been successful. I have been consistent in my views. When the show has been bad, I have said it...and when it has been good, or great, I have said it. I have always been fair, and my reviews of the show's episodes have been on par with most fan and press reviews, per each episode, each and every week, without fail. Given that, your attack on me ring as being uninformed and just plain hollow.
May 6, 2009, 5 a.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I want the show to be picked-up, that is my point in posting, but it won't prosper, even if it does get picked-up, unless...however, Fox and Mutant Enemy adjust, and make the types of changes I am suggesting, and have been suggesting all along! Hell, in a new article, even Time Magazine Online has agreed with the new ensemble look of the show, something that I have been suggesting since early on in the series run. Further, TV Guide Online has just pointed-out in its letter blogging column that there are precious few characters to root for on Dollhouse...another point I have been making from the very beginning--as something that is hurting the show. <BR><BR> All of my critiques have been accurate and on point, and the press in article, after article, has stressed similar criticisms of the show--when I was well ahead of the curve on observing the show's faults and suggesting ways of how these problems can be mended. So clearly, considering that the press is expressing views that nearly match mine, again...point for point; in that light, my suggestions aren't off-base, in fact, they are right on the money, and have been forward thinking when the rest of you said nothing, or just chose sides--one of either pro-Whedon zealotry...and the other, anti-Whedon zealotry, neither side having any real interest in speaking a truth that could help the series, rather, both sides had pre-conceived agendas, stating that Whedon is a God without flaw, or a talentless hack. I however, have been trying to offer constructive unbiased criticisms, and to encourage the producers and execs...where and when...they have been successful. I have been consistent in my views. When the show has been bad, I have said it...and when it has been good, or great, I have said it. I have always been fair, and my reviews of the show's episodes have been on par with most fan and press reviews, per each episode, each and every week, without fail. Given that, your attack on me rings as being uninformed and just plain hollow.
May 6, 2009, 6:58 a.m. CST
People have tried debating you. They've tried being nice to you. They've tried laughter and not taking you seriously. <p> But the only thing you do when someone doesn't agree with you, is claim they are attacking you. <p> Is that where you get the "Messiah" part of the name? do you have a martyr-complex?
May 6, 2009, 2:30 p.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
WHAT ATTACK? Is it because I said, "shit cupcakes"? I think that your wasting your life posting these wonderfully articulate points of view on Dollhouse, that ultimately serve no purpose. FOX doesn't care, talkbackers really don't care. Why don't you create something yourself? Send out a script? I'll be your writing partner if you want one. I'm serious dude, don't waste your brainpower.
May 6, 2009, 2:45 p.m. CST
Seems to suggest that it's NOT Ballard.
May 6, 2009, 3:30 p.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
I enjoy Whedon, though he is far from a god. I fell asleep during the Firefly Pilot. His dialog is so stylized he can go over the line of believability quickly. He doesn't stay there long, but it makes me wince. However, his wit is razor sharp and the man knows how to keep genre shows moving and interesting. Don't lump me into your preconceived notions of fandom please. The only SciFi (pronounced ski-fee) shows I'm at all interested in now are Caprica and Dollhouse.
May 6, 2009, 3:32 p.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
though, I am interested in your original ideas.
May 6, 2009, 4:09 p.m. CST
by Media Messiah
When someone says: "I really think this show is going to get picked up and you're going to have to eat shit cupcakes for a while." Yes, I take that as an attack, or any other personal attacks others have made against me. Debating is fine, but when one debates, it should never be personal and should always be centered strictly on the facts of the subject, never crossing the line into making pointed remarks assailing another person, such as I have experienced here in these talkbacks for several weeks.<BR><BR>As for those who don't fit the ranks of the more aggressive fans, I apologize, if the two of you do not fit that definition, I sincerely regret any portion of my comments which have ensnared you. I will tell you one thing, I have received specific attacks by others calling me insane or crazy, just for proposing ideas, or for having opinions on the show...and I have noticed on at least 3 occasions, every time I have openly questioned if those responsible for those assailing words have some direct interest in the show, either at the production or network level, those attacks would seemingly and magically, break and abait...and those launching them...would not answer my implied queries? As, I said, this happened on 3 occasions...each time I made this specific retort. I just find that to be rather suspect, so you can understand my apparent uneasiness at not knowing who is taking real shots at me, or not? At first when these attacks started, I assumed, "Okay, these a the typical fan boys or over-anxious Whedon fans being mischievious?"...but then as they continued and began to grow, it just started to appear like an organized campaign of some sort, and not fan fueled at all, but plant fueled--as in corporate insider "Plant". Now, maybe I am completely wrong, perhaps very wrong, but it really comes off like I ticked somebody, or several somebodies...off that have more than a passing interest in the show...as in a few people who are on the payroll.
May 6, 2009, 4:20 p.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I have a specific idea concerning a remake of a classic tv series--a sideways remake. Its details, I can't talk about. As you know, in this industry you can't copyright an idea. I have had this idea for years, and worked-up story details, and what not, but I am not in one degree of separation to be where I need to be to present my idea as a series pitch, threrefore, I haven't, and I won't. I just went through a situation with a film director regarding a film script I wrote. He was acting in a suspect manner which gave me pause. Now, I had some problems on my end in my personal life that interfered with that process, something that I must admit, but this director was not acting in a forthright manner, so I broke-off communications with him. This is just the stuff of the industry, it, much like life...is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.
LOL, Media Messiah - someone clearly not best friends with reality - is now lecturing people about FACTS. Is that an attack? Fuck yeah it is!
May 6, 2009, 5:58 p.m. CST
May 6, 2009, 6:16 p.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
Eating "shit cupcakes" is not a personal insult. If I used some truism from your personal life against you, that would be a personal attack. Were in a aintitcool talkback for Christs sake, think about the context. This is not point/counter-point. Also I understand your position about wanting people not to read your work, but you HAVE to have feedback or your only stroking your own ego. It's a hard thing to do, for sure, but objective chritisism beats subjective every day of the week. <p> Also, I almost used excriment sandwiches.
May 6, 2009, 7:33 p.m. CST
by Media Messiah
I see your point about context, and you have my apologies. I was just assuming that you were acting as some of my past critics have.<BR><BR>As far as submitting my work, save for that director, at present I have no direct line to submit my work to, save for other well connected, but suspect routes...and I am not willing to risk that. There are some real sharks in this industry, and it seems that I know most of them.
May 6, 2009, 8:33 p.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
Why not use the "poor mans copyright" and submit away? The only thing worse then being ripped off is leaving it on your hard drive.
May 6, 2009, 11:03 p.m. CST
by Media Messiah
...I'd rather leave it to better circumstances.
May 7, 2009, 12:33 a.m. CST
by Quin the Eskimo
although my pilot seems to scream failure from my desktop.