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'Investigate Their Purpose!!'
Tim Minear Clears Up Felicia Day’s Twitter Regarding The DOLLHOUSE Fox May Not Air!!

Published at: April 10, 2009, 8:20 p.m. CST by hercules

Fox says of tonight’s installment, “Spy in the House of Love”:
When a traitor is discovered inside the Dollhouse, Echo and Sierra are programmed as spy hunters to uncover the culprit. Meanwhile, Ballard receives surprising news from Mellie, and Adelle harbors a secret. Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Miracle Laurie as Mellie; Valerie Cruz as Ramirez; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Tim Chiou as Nikoden.
I am – Hercules!!
Was going to save this item until my usual Friday morning “Dollhouse” post, but my emailbox is exploding and my hand is forced. "Dollhouse" actress Felicia Day “twittered” today that Fox won’t air the 13th and final episode of “Dollhouse’s” first season:
Man, day getting worse and worse. Found out my Dollhouse ep, #13 isn't gonna air. Only on DVD. Such a great part too. Thx Fox. :(
Panic reigns, though Fox confirms nothing so far, and is certainly not yet declaring the series cancelled. Word is the series’ May 8 12th episode, “Omega,” is highly season-finale like, and the Joss Whedon-directed 13th, “Epitaph One,” is more of a tacked-on epilogue made specifically to fulfill the series' contractual 13-episode DVD obligation. (Perhaps it’s a “Buffy” season-four kind of thing: David Fury’s penultimate episode “Primeval” effectively concluded the season-four arc by destroying the Frankensteiny Adam and the Sunnydale branch of The Initiative -- but the season technically ended with the standalone dream-happy Cheese Man episode “Restless” written and directed by series mastermind Whedon.) “Dollhouse” writer-producer Tim Minear explains the finale situation on Whedonesque.com:
Okay. So maybe I can help clarify this somewhat. Because we scrapped the original pilot -- and in fact cannibalized some of its parts for other eps -- we really ended up with 12 episodes. But the studio makes DVD and other deals based on the original 13 number. So we created a standalone kind of coda episode. Which is the mythical new episode 13. The network had already paid for 13 episodes, and this included the one they agreed to let us scrap for parts. It does not include the one we made to bring the number back up to 13 for the studio side and its obligations. We always knew it would be for the DVD for sure, but we also think Fox should air it because it’s awesome.
Day guest stars in the finale, and maybe “Firefly” vet Alan Tudyk, rumored to play the murderous “active” Alpha, too. I am reminded that NBC wasn’t going to air the “Journeyman” finale – until it did. The ninth "Dollhouse" episode, "Spy in the House of Love," airs Friday.

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Readers Talkback

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  • April 9, 2009, 5:36 p.m. CST

    So...

    by Captain RawBeard

    ...I guess this is the start of Fox dicking around with Joss Whedon again, First it starts of with little things like this, next they will screw over the show and piss of all the fans.<br> <br> I miss Firefly

  • April 9, 2009, 5:38 p.m. CST

    And this is why I didn't even bother

    by kingink123

    Gee, Fox is dropping another Whedon show? Sorry Fox, but fuck you. You burned us with Firefly and I'll never bother watching any new show until there's at least one season in the bank. What's the point?

  • April 9, 2009, 5:38 p.m. CST

    Way to spoil Alpha

    by jgsugden

    The identity of Alpha is a huge spoiler - you might want to nix any reference to it from the article for the unspoiled... (or at least add spoiler to the article)

  • April 9, 2009, 5:39 p.m. CST

    The point remains: this show is canceled

    by TallBoy66

    Cut through all the bullshit and the episode numbers and the twitters.... and the show is canceled. That's the truth. The rest is just window dressing. It's over. Deal.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:40 p.m. CST

    mmm....

    by I87D

    cheese...

  • April 9, 2009, 5:40 p.m. CST

    Cling to hope if you must. This show is shitcanned.

    by V'Shael

    And we all know it.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:41 p.m. CST

    Series finale probably

    by lockesbrokenleg

    All the money's going to Fringe.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Eliza is full of herself

    by JackDonkey

    Hey you know what was awesome about Dollhouse that during every name in the credits they show Dushku's face on screen.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:43 p.m. CST

    While I would be sad if this show is canceled,

    by NoQuarter

    as seems quite likely, I'll be even more sad if Chuck gets the ax. I like Dollhouse, but Firefly it ain't.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:47 p.m. CST

    Shame I won't buy the DVD's

    by MrD

    Unless the show is renewed. I'm sure the show can get better, but as is I have not enough investment in the story or characters, and have little desire to watch these episodes over again.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:47 p.m. CST

    RIP Journeyman - TOO SOON!

    by Mr_X

    fuck you fox and NBC! ( alright, but im liking kings, and i think that Christopher Egan could play captain america in a couple of years time) radio silence from fox means that this series is canned. canned i tell you!

  • April 9, 2009, 5:52 p.m. CST

    Fox's PR dept, Ladies & Germs!

    by buffywrestling

    Let's give them BIG hand. First, they "leak" the death slot re-scheduling (before a weekend) and now, they drop this news * gasp* before a long weekend!! And when they are tried to be reached by the Hollywood Freaking Reporter: the response? "NO COMMENT" And when they seem mystified by the confusion, they tweet a response directing people to other outlets who are doing trying to do their job for them!! <p> What a bunch of nimrods.

  • April 9, 2009, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Dollhouse is so canceled.

    by BrowncoatJedi

    I hope Joss can go on and create something greater. With GOOD actors.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:02 p.m. CST

    More ranting...

    by buffywrestling

    And! AND! News as early as the beginning of the week held that they still hadn't made a decision regarding a S2 pick up but they were going to "wait & see" what the ratings did for the remainder of the episodes. Someone please explain to me the insane troll logic to release this news effectively shit-canning any possible hope this show could up trend??

  • April 9, 2009, 6:09 p.m. CST

    there's only one man that can save this show

    by Mr_X

    media messiah where for art thou???!?!?

  • April 9, 2009, 6:11 p.m. CST

    did anyone else catch Richard Brooks on lie to me?

    by Mr_X

    I did ;)

  • April 9, 2009, 6:11 p.m. CST

    Ummm... Alpha?

    by XSE_Drake

    I realize there was a spoiler warning... but you really need to bring out the orange safety cones if you're going to spoil the Alpha I.D. That was kinda lame.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:15 p.m. CST

    Just renew Terminator

    by Nem_Wan

    So many worse shows on TV.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:16 p.m. CST

    Canceled

    by fiester

    Come on, you know it's canceled. Why not announce it now? Instead they will do it in a few months time, listing it with the other season casualties that will not be returning.<p> Dollhouse, from what I've seen, had a lot of issues conceptually. It was an interesting experiment though. Maybe next time Whedon will be smart and go with someone--anyone!--but Fox. There's AMC, FX, heck HBO could use help! Plenty of other places where you can have more time and more artistic freedom to do what you like.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:17 p.m. CST

    CANNED.

    by alice 13

    dollcoats assemble!!!

  • April 9, 2009, 6:23 p.m. CST

    And Dollhouse isn't scheduled for next week

    by buffywrestling

    So Joe Viewer is going to think that the "Dollhouse Cancelled" headlines that are making the rounds is true. Fox cuts off it's nose (gouged it's eyeballs, bit it's own lips off, etc) despite it's face.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:24 p.m. CST

    buffywrestling

    by NoQuarter

    The correct phrase is ". . .to spite its face," not ". . .despite its face." :)

  • April 9, 2009, 6:26 p.m. CST

    Actor is a spoiler?

    by jeffv

    I don't understand why the identity of the actor playing Alpha is a spoiler. Was it a spoiler that Heath Ledger was going to play the Joker? Would it have been a spoiler that Zachary Quinto was going to play Sylar in Heroes (when they settled on that)?

  • April 9, 2009, 6:27 p.m. CST

    No one "annouces" cancellations

    by buffywrestling

    Not offically, except in very rare occurances. They just don't renew and we don't find that out until the upfronts. Sets being torn down, actors moving on to other jobs are usually the most definitive answer we get ahead of time.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:29 p.m. CST

    Thanks NoQuarter!

    by buffywrestling

    I'm sure I'll get more incoherent as the night wears on - more so than usual, I mean ;)

  • April 9, 2009, 6:31 p.m. CST

    jeffv *Actor Spoiler Explained*

    by buffywrestling

    The actor is a spoiler in this case because he shows up an episode before not as Alpha but introduced as someone else.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:43 p.m. CST

    @buffywrestling

    by jeffv

    I guess I'll have to see it to appreciate it. The Dollhouse would presumably recognise Alpha if they saw him (and should've let Boyd know what he looked like, too, given the circumstances), so that leaves only Ballard to be played by yet another mole. Or Alpha works behind the scenes, which is what he's doing already. Oh well. My wife won't know. We can compare notes afterwards and see how significant a spoiler it turns out to be.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:51 p.m. CST

    No spoiler

    by greyspecter

    Read it again, folks. He said "maybe". as in, "maybe “Firefly” vet Alan Tudyk, rumored to play the murderous “active” Alpha, too." Rumoured. maybe. Words matter, people.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:52 p.m. CST

    But

    by greyspecter

    i agree, this show is doomed. maybe HBO will pick it up and add some skin. Or the CW like Buffy.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:56 p.m. CST

    Can't say...

    by codymr

    That I am much of a Whedon fan, but it seems FOX had dug a grave for Dollhouse before it even premiered. <P> That's a shame for fans of his work. <P> NBC seems to be doing the same thing with Kings. It is moved to Saturday 10pm... where it will surely die. <P> I don't understand why networks spend all sorts of development money and resources to create a show only to kill it before it has found and audience. Both of these series is barely out of the gate.

  • April 9, 2009, 6:59 p.m. CST

    ooops.

    by codymr

    Both of these series ARE barely out of the gate.

  • April 9, 2009, 7 p.m. CST

    Okay so...

    by theGoldbergV

    I watched the first 3 eps online recently and...while kind of interesting its still a major disappointment. Does it get better? Please, anyone? Big Whedon fan but this one just seems like a misfire. I heard it gets better around ep 6, is that right? One thing I have noticed is that extra 6 mins it has, really seems to kill the pace, all the eps so far seemed like they could've had that much trimmed out without any story loss.

  • April 9, 2009, 7:05 p.m. CST

    Thursday - Saturday nights are bad timeslots

    by fiester

    Generally. Unless you're trying to get the oldsters. <p> Of course, a lot of that has changed with OnDemand viewing, TiVo and the like, but I don't know if those services are factored in on the ratings. <p> But, yeah, if I'm launching a new show with a younger demographic, I damn sure want it on a Sunday - Wednesday night spot.

  • April 9, 2009, 7:11 p.m. CST

    Screw Dollhouse

    by Jack_Bauer

    I only care that Fox renew Terminator at the moment. SEASON FINALE TOMMOROW NIGHT FOLKS! DON'T MISS IT!

  • April 9, 2009, 7:26 p.m. CST

    If This Is True (?), The Business Model Suggests Firefly's DVD..

    by Media Messiah

    ...release strategy, in other words, Fox is intending to cancel Dollhouse as I assumed, and they will fuel sales and rentals of the Dollhouse DVD set, with any unaired shows, specifically, the 13th episode, etc., just like with Firefly.

  • April 9, 2009, 7:31 p.m. CST

    I thought the series was supposed to be short-lived anyway.

    by LlGHTST0RMER

    I thought when Joss first got the show in the works, it was meant to be a limited run. I guess they just got into the groove and started making plans for the future of the series, and Fox, as usual, is likely to pull the rug out.

  • April 9, 2009, 7:37 p.m. CST

    The Journeyman reminder.

    by gotilk

    *sigh* So sad.<br> <br> The last 2 Dollhouse episodes have been MUCH, much better. Hope it gets a shot at another season.

  • April 9, 2009, 7:40 p.m. CST

    Way to catch up, MM

    by buffywrestling

  • April 9, 2009, 7:52 p.m. CST

    Every cult show needs a "lost episode"

    by Billy Goat

    13 episodes is a DVD requirement? Must be a new rule. Lots of shows on DVD stop at twelve. "Greg the Bunny", "Flight of the Conchords"...

  • April 9, 2009, 7:53 p.m. CST

    BRING BACK JOURNEYMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by dioxholster

    u pussy shit mammafuckers who dwidle their asses with penpushing scrap licking cosmo shifting hair raising shiteating monkey assfuckerssssss, i want journeyman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • April 9, 2009, 8:21 p.m. CST

    how is Alpha's identity a spoiler?

    by Bouncy X

    the actor has never been on the show yet, its not like it was gonna be a big reveal of "so that character was alpha all along" or something.

  • April 9, 2009, 8:41 p.m. CST

    dioxholster

    by gotilk

    Well said.

  • April 9, 2009, 9:04 p.m. CST

    This episode needs to air

    by originalredfly

    Bombard Fox with letters. Do whatever it takes. If you aren't getting into this show, by the time it gets to this episode, you will be. Episode 13 was made to satisfy foreign commitments w/ no money from Fox, at half the cost of any other episode, yet kicks the ass of every other episode this season. It is wildly different from anything before it, and enormously satisfying. And knowing who plays Alpha is an enormous spoiler.

  • April 9, 2009, 9:06 p.m. CST

    Meagan Fox to host SNL

    by Orionsangels

  • April 9, 2009, 9:07 p.m. CST

    This show deserves to be canceled. It fucking sucks.

    by FookU

    It had interesting moments and if it hadn't wasted six episodes getting somewhere then it might have been more popular. This show is garbage and belongs in the dumpster. Don't blame Fox for Whedon's inability to make a good show from the beginning. I like how people say Buffy took a season to get good. Well that's pretty shitty writing if it took a season to get somewhere. I think Fox sucks but it's not their fault that Whedon made a dull ass show.

  • April 9, 2009, 9:28 p.m. CST

    FookU

    by buffywrestling

    The quality of the show is a different argument. But this isn't about fanboiness, it's about Fox's inate ability to deliberately bury their own shows. And yes, I DO blame Fox for that. You trying to justify Fox's PR incompetence on whether you liked the show or not is ill founded and not at all proof. <p> But that situation is typical in talkback. If your favorite show is slumping in the ratings or - heaven forbid - not getting a specified TB, everyone seems to think it's a quality issue. And it's so not.

  • April 9, 2009, 9:36 p.m. CST

    Why Doesn't AICN Report on Sarah Conner Chronicles?

    by Darkknight37

    Joss Whedon continues to get topped off by everyone, yet no word or hype regarding SCC? If no one cars about that, then the same could be said for Dollhouse.

  • April 9, 2009, 9:42 p.m. CST

    *facepalm*

    by buffywrestling

  • April 9, 2009, 9:58 p.m. CST

    Apparently dollhouse doing a forum at paleyfest

    by Mr_X

    http://tinyurl.com/ch57fm along with big bang theory, true blood,Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, galatica and fringe

  • April 9, 2009, 9:59 p.m. CST

    upside?

    by Mr_X

    Is there finally a chance for a faith tv show ?

  • April 9, 2009, 10:01 p.m. CST

    Knew it! The show was a snooze fest.

    by mistergreen

  • April 9, 2009, 10:07 p.m. CST

    Mr_X

    by buffywrestling

    Paleyfest is going to be VERY interesting. And also, apparently Joss is getting an award from Harvard tomorrow and there is a Q & A afterward. So once again, Fox takes a dump on the staircase with no explanation and leaves a showrunner with a days notice to spin the development.

  • April 9, 2009, 10:17 p.m. CST

    Buffywrestling: Actually, I Was Debating It Last Week...But...

    by Media Messiah

    ...they, Fox, put out some press report assuring everyone that the network was going to show all 13 episodes, and further, that they would renew the show, so, not having any other information to go on...I pondered this, but swayed by the reports I mentioned above, I altered my final conclusion, but it was certainly on my mind.

  • April 9, 2009, 10:24 p.m. CST

    buffywrestling. The fact is this show sucks.

    by FookU

    No matter when it airs it's a turd. It would get canceled no matter what night and time it is on. So we can argue this or that but the fact is this show is boring and deserves to die. I already said Fox is stupid (the Fringe hiatus is proof), however this show would have died in any time slot. It took six episodes for something to happen and even then it still wasn't that significant.

  • April 9, 2009, 10:42 p.m. CST

    FookU: Those People Were Wrong About Buffy

    by Media Messiah

    It was good from the beginning, I however, and many others, just failed to find the show until the second season.

  • April 9, 2009, 10:46 p.m. CST

    Alpha

    by yanksno1

    Yea thanks for the possible Alpha spoiling. Way to go there. This show definitely has potential, but either way I could take it or leave it at this point. I'd be excited to see what they'd do with a 2nd season, but if they didn't get it I wouldn't be totally bummed out.

  • April 9, 2009, 11:07 p.m. CST

    has to hit the ground running

    by Mr_X

    a new show has to hit it out of the park on the first ep. lost did. so did 24 and heroes. doll house didnt. unfortunately journeyman didn't either. it took 6 eps, thats 6 eps too long ( despite the fact that if it was a brilliant show if you hanged on in there). unless your on a network where the ratings are gonna be low anyway ala supernatural and BSG, you're fucked. Minear knows this more then anyone. its not 10 years ago, you cant have a slow burn and build up the fanbase. it has to start at the beginning. which is why dollhouse was ultimately screwed. that and the fact it was on fox. make the fucking faith tv show, you have a built in fanbase already. It's a recession dammit, people have to do things they don't want to. star trek shows have traditionally taken 3 seasons to get up there! 3 fucking seasons! the built in fanbase carried on watching regardless, ( that is until enterprise which was so bad it broke the camels back)

  • April 9, 2009, 11:17 p.m. CST

    i'm just surprised is all

    by Mr_X

    there's no fucking lessons learnt here, despite all the millions spent on getting these shows off the ground, developed, advertised and what not. I <p> i understand that there's unquantifiable stuff here, actors, stories, writers and what not, but use the fucking information you've gathered from other shows that have worked and failed. if you have no one championing your show on the inside.. it's dead. if you show horn it in a fucking dead timeslot, it's dead. it's not rocket science people. </p> <p> why the fuck am i out of a job, when so many idiots are still employed..arrrgggghhh! </p>

  • April 9, 2009, 11:44 p.m. CST

    MM I've started watching the first season and...

    by FookU

    it's awful. Obviously it's just my opinion but the dialogue is criminal and I'm just not enjoying it.

  • April 10, 2009, midnight CST

    Lasted longer than I thought it would.

    by AnnoyYou

    I thought it would die at episode 6. Really, though - did anyone expect this subpar, derivative series to last?

  • April 10, 2009, 1:14 a.m. CST

    bad combo

    by thewizardofoz

    Not joss' most engaging work but shows promise and potential to turn into something interesting. Unfortunatley fox raped him...again. Why the fuck was this not paired with fringe? I'm not sure Whedon will ever be mr. Mainstream and that's fine with me so long as he's given some outlet for his creativity and brilliance. Joss is just too quirky and complex to be embraced by the mainstream (and some of the dumbasses that haunt this board) and I praise him for not selling his audience short and designing his projects with the birds in mind (JJ I'm lookin at you!).

  • April 10, 2009, 2:09 a.m. CST

    I think Whedon's concepts are too big.

    by Rev. Slappy

    Clearly Joss thinks in terms of creating a show with massive backstory and mythology. I think this is why his shows take a while to really come together. It really takes Buffy well into season 2 to really find its voice (thought it's not like is sucks up until that point). I wonder how much of Dollhouse's problems are due to Fox meddling in the production...

  • April 10, 2009, 2:26 a.m. CST

    This is neither good nor bad news regarding Dollhouse's fate.

    by dance4days

    It's sort of a complicated reason as to why this extra episode, "Epitaph One," was even filmed. First of all, Fox Network doesn't give a shit about DVD sales, as they don't make a dime from them. That money goes to Fox Studios, a completely separate entity. So the decision to not air "Epitaph One" has nothing to do with wanting to boost DVD sales. The way this process works is that the production company (Fox Studios) pays for the cost of producing these episodes, and then the network (Fox Network) pays the production company for the right to air them. Fox Network paid for 13 episodes, and part of that package included the pilot episode, "Echo," which ended up being scrapped with parts of it being recycled into other episodes. The real wrench in the machine is that Fox Studios had a DVD distribution deal set up for a 13 episode season. The scrapped pilot can't count as a separate episode because very large chunks of it have been used in other episodes. So Fox Studios needs a new episode, effectively a *14th* one, for the DVD set. Presto, "Epitaph One" is filmed, a side story set in a far-flung post-apocalyptic future of the Dollhouse universe. Fox Network has no deal in place to air this episode, so they map out a schedule that doesn't include it. "Omega" was *always* intended to be a season finale.

  • April 10, 2009, 2:27 a.m. CST

    I'll say it again...

    by Steve Young

    If Joss Whedon needs more than one season to create something completely great -- he paddled water for five episodes with "Dollhouse" and then took a dive with episode seven -- perhaps he should stick to comic books. I am being completely serious here. Either that, or take his projects to the CW, where "OK" shows have more breathing room to become awesome (the first five seasons of Buffy were pretty damned entertaining).

  • April 10, 2009, 3:11 a.m. CST

    It´s a sad thing

    by Bulla_11

    That in the CW Dollhouse probably would have had worst raitings and better chance to be renewed. Is a complicated idea to sell but with more time it cold be great.

  • April 10, 2009, 3:29 a.m. CST

    oh man, remember Restless?

    by punto

    that was an awesome episode. remember when those guys made awesome tv episodes?

  • April 10, 2009, 3:45 a.m. CST

    Whedon the battered housewife...

    by V'Shael

    I think this is the final neck-snap for poor battered Joss. When Fox is finished roughly anally raping him then going ass-to-mouth, I think he's going to throw himself down a flight of stairs. <p> This is it for Whedon on television. After the mediocre numbers of Firefly, Serenity and now Dollhouse, no studio is going to want to work with him. <p> In this business you're only as good as your last few projects, if not your last project. Whedon's insistance on returning to the abusive Fox for another ass-reaming means that his track record now is pretty shit. And like abused chicks at a half-way house, no one is going to want to take them to dinner and movie anymore, you know? <p> If Joss had done the smart thing, and RUN LIKE FUCK away from Fox after Firefly, he might have been able to have a decent upswing in his career. Not anymore. <p> It's back to comics and the internet for you now fanboy. Why not release ANOTHER Angel comic? I don't think the market is quite yet saturated with angsty vampires.

  • April 10, 2009, 3:49 a.m. CST

    I hope FOX picks up Dollhouse & Terminator.

    by The Outlander

    What am I going to watch with no Battlestar, Terminator & Dollhouse? I also want more Chuck.

  • April 10, 2009, 4:45 a.m. CST

    FookU

    by buffywrestling

    I'm not saying your wrong in your opinion but it is still only your own opinion. "The show is a turd" is not something that can be argued against because it is your own fucking opinion. <p> And I would rather argue "this or that" than trying to argue your taste in TV shows compared to mine.

  • April 10, 2009, 4:56 a.m. CST

    dance4days

    by buffywrestling

    Epitaph One was scheduled to be aired. It had an air date! Then because of Fox's press release it was made known that it wasn't being shown - with no explanation as to why. This is why the whole confusion *started*.

  • April 10, 2009, 5:07 a.m. CST

    You know what the real BITCH thing is?

    by buffywrestling

    You have talented, creative people like Joss Whedon, Bryan Fuller and Tim Minear - who are excellent showrunners - and the only thing they get from network studios is smothering notes and quick cancels. The dispraportion between creative and business meins is mind boggling.

  • April 10, 2009, 6:26 a.m. CST

    I've said once and I'll say it again.

    by BrandonGK

    Whedon should never have shopped a show like this to Fox. It would've been better off at a Cable channel like FX, AMC, or hell even the Sci-Fi, ahem, SyFy Channel. Cable's where its at if you want something truly unique or original to stand a chance of thriving.

  • April 10, 2009, 6:26 a.m. CST

    Felicia Day Gotta Eat!

    by Melvin_Pelvis

    bummer about her ep not being aired

  • April 10, 2009, 6:49 a.m. CST

    FookU: The First Season Of Buffy, You Will Like It

    by Media Messiah

    As you get to know the characters and realize there is a future and direction for most of them, save one, on the side of the heroes, it will grow on you. Of course, they started out filming the show on a beer budget and it was shot on 16 mm film--that said it is pretty much a triumph considering that it was just green-lit as a throw away series fro a throw away and failed start-up network. Remember this as you are watching the show, the series is not about a 16 year old vampire slayer, it is metaphor and allegory for the evolution of a child into an adult. It is about her fears of the adult world, from sex to the opposite sex. Adults are seen as monsters, date rapists and abusive boyfriends, even the bad boys, as vampires, STDs as vampirism, witchcraft as addictive magic, statutory rape is seen as the tragic Romeo and Juliet relationship, and the Hell Mouth, is our world out of control, as it is in real life, and perhaps has always been, out of control? So when you watch the show, begin to watch it with these very things in mind, and know that even the title of the show is a joke within a joke, it is sarcasm at its best--like a 16 year old girl named Buffy could ever be a vampire slayer?<BR><BR>The show is political, social, sexual and religious satire...the reason for the humor, and some of the dialogue that you complained about, it is deliberately cute, and when you think about it from that angle, it becomes genius.

  • April 10, 2009, 6:50 a.m. CST

    Excellent Show

    by Cobbio

    Despite my pre-season reservations, I'm really liking "Dollhouse." Interesting characters, emotional situations (esp. last week's), Tahmoh Penikett, and Eliza Dushku taking her acting ability to a new level. It's been a great synthesis of elements.<p> I'll be watching this week too.

  • April 10, 2009, 7:01 a.m. CST

    Finger to Fringe

    by Cobbio

    Also, I'm glad "Dollhouse" showed up to bitchslap that piece of garbage "Fringe." Seriously, I don't care if people say "Fringe" is "getting better," I forced down the first two episodes and an episode two weeks ago, and I can say, unequivocally, that Anna Torv is horribly miscast. She might be a good actress in another genre, but the writing on "Fringe" is unengaging and embarrassingly paper-thin, so her acting reflects this. They could've done so many cool things with this show, but they didn't. They shat it away.<p> "Fringe" is the show that deserves to be cancelled, and maybe it will be. I've never seen a worse show in my life.

  • April 10, 2009, 7:43 a.m. CST

    You've never seen worse than Fringe? Are you 3?

    by V'Shael

    I can think of a dozen worse than fringe in the last 5 years without breaking a sweat.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:11 a.m. CST

    I saw both My Own Worst Enemy and

    by Grammaton Cleric Binks

    Dollhouse. I saw all episodes of the former, and only one of the latter. Similar premises, and I felt Enemy was superior. More shooting, less pretty people walking around in zombie mode.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:25 a.m. CST

    Cleric Binks

    by buffywrestling

    Thank you for your indepth opinion. <p> Don't let the doorknob of the talkback fuck you in the ass on your way out.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:27 a.m. CST

    Oh my if I have a different opinion than

    by Grammaton Cleric Binks

    someone then I'm not allowed to speak. Thanks Orwell.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:28 a.m. CST

    Media Messiah, Buffy evolved into but still..

    by EvilWizardGlick

    Yes Buffy did evolve into that. But it still had a some major flaws. <p> No matter how the girls aged they still spoke like fifteen year olds. Sure it was partially cute but overall detracted from mature female characters. <p> Lack of endgame. The direction seemed tacked on at the end. To me it never reflected the direction the show was moving. Possibly another couple of seasons would have developed much better. But in the context it could have been better. <p> In the Buffyverse only a handful of characters ever matured, Angel, Spike, and Charisma Carpenter. The rest were stunted and emotionally immature. <p> Angel was geared to the adult audience much more than later Buffy was. It showed in each and every episode. <p> Still both deserve within the top 100 tv series.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:33 a.m. CST

    It's not the difference of opinion

    by buffywrestling

    It's that you have basically none.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:34 a.m. CST

    William Shatner will play "Alpha" in the season finale.

    by Leafar the Lost

    In a shocking development, William Shatner has been hired to play Alpha in Dollhouse's 13th episode this year.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:37 a.m. CST

    I stated that I liked something better than

    by Grammaton Cleric Binks

    something else. That, oh uneducated person, by definition is an opinion.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:42 a.m. CST

    Fine. A *weak* opinion

    by buffywrestling

    Like a thrice used tea bag.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:47 a.m. CST

    Fox

    by The McPoyle Clan

    deservedly gets a lot of shit, but someone else made a good point -- who else would have taken a chance with a "genre" producer like Whedon and put one of his shows on the air, even before Dollhouse? But glad Minear "cleared" things up for those who can't walk and chew gum at the same time.<br><br>Plus, some out there are still apparently in the dark about the origins of this show -- it came about from Dushku's talent holding deal with Fox, which is why she gets a producer credit, and also why is wasn't shopped around anywhere, never mind to cable.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:47 a.m. CST

    PS: Christian Slater sucks cocks

    by buffywrestling

    for pocket change. Sometimes they'll give him a button mixed in with the coin but he doesn't even care.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:18 a.m. CST

    ...and this time it's not because of audience apathy...

    by Pdorwick

    ...or Network interference, it's because the show's just not very good.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:35 a.m. CST

    Er..Pdorick?

    by buffywrestling

    What's not because of audience apathy or network interference?

  • April 10, 2009, 10:13 a.m. CST

    Journeyman finale aired because of you Herc

    by snowpuff

    Your writing pressured them into it. Most excellent.

  • April 10, 2009, 10:45 a.m. CST

    You know what's gonna be funny?

    by buffywrestling

    When Herc posts another Dollhouse talkback just after this one. People's heads will explode. Hee.

  • April 10, 2009, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Please Visit

    by bobsjohnson

    Please visit this website and click Play Video. I'm in a contest and all I need are views. Please help, AICN! http://tinyurl.com/dgub9z

  • April 10, 2009, 11:11 a.m. CST

    Who us Tudyk going to be Alpha when he's been cast...

    by Angelus_420

    ...to star on another show on another network? And wow did Felicia Day ever cause a fuck up!LOL!! I still think she's great but man what a shit storm she caused!

  • April 10, 2009, 11:37 a.m. CST

    NO Dollhouse next week!

    by wcme

    I knew there was an issue when next week are 2 PRISON BREAK reruns on fox Friday night. As we have been saying for weeks here while we chat about Supernatural and all kinds of other shows much more worthy of a talkback - Dollhouse is one terrible hour of tv. I would have married Eliza in TRU CALLING and here I am bored to death. How the combo of Eliza hotness and Fireflyness fails is beyond me. I could not watch more of it if I tried. Sorry for the loss. I feel it from the STUDIO 60/THE GUARDIAN/JOURNEYMAN standpoint. :)

  • April 10, 2009, 11:49 a.m. CST

    Who Cares?

    by Merlox

    you do?....REALLY?!

  • April 10, 2009, 12:02 p.m. CST

    SPOILER! Episode descriptions for next few weeks

    by wcme

    And whats being shown when. FRIDAY FOX Friday goes into overdrive with back-to-back thrill rides PRISON BREAK and DOLLHOUSE, including the incredible two-hour series finale of PRISON BREAK. Friday, April 24 PRISON BREAK (8:00-9:01 PM ET/PT) "Vs." Time Period Premiere Michael (Wentworth Miller) and Lincoln (Dominic Purcell) square off; Christina (guest star Kathleen Quinlan) sets her plan in motion; and Sara (Sarah Wayne Callies) makes a surprising discovery. DOLLHOUSE (9:01-10:00 PM ET/PT) "Haunted" When Adelle's (Olivia Williams) wealthy friend mysteriously dies, Echo (Eliza Dushku) is implanted with the friend's memories and personality in order to solve the murder. Ballard (Tahmoh Penikett) looks into Mellie's (Miracle Laurie) past, and Topher (Fran Kranz) secretly programs Sierra (Dichen Lachman). Friday, May 1 PRISON BREAK (8:00-9:01 PM ET/PT) "S.O.B." Michael has an uneasy reunion with Christina, who drops a bombshell regarding Lincoln. While Lincoln runs into Christina's deadly trap, T-Bag (Robert Knepper) sets out to prove he can become a Company man. DOLLHOUSE (9:01-10:00 PM ET/PT) "Briar Rose" Ballard's investigation leads him to the agoraphobic designer of the Dollhouse (guest star Alan Tudyk); Echo helps a young girl deal with her traumatic past; Adelle goes to the Attic in search of answers; and Alpha reveals himself to set his end game in motion. Friday, May 8 PRISON BREAK (8:00-9:01 PM ET/PT) "Cowboys & Indians" Pandemonium erupts at the hotel following an assassination at the global energy conference, and Michael must choose between saving either Sara or Lincoln. DOLLHOUSE (9:01-10:00 PM ET/PT) "Omega" Season Finale Alpha's reign of terror continues as his obsession with Echo endangers Caroline's survival; Ballard must make a life-changing decision; and one Doll is permanently deactivated while another's shocking past is revealed. Friday, May 15 PRISON BREAK (8:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) "Rate of Exchange" / "Killing Your Number" Series Finale Familiar faces return to help Michael end his quest to bring down The Company once and for all.

  • April 10, 2009, 12:04 p.m. CST

    It's not a Prison Break "rerun"

    by buffywrestling

    It's the 2 hr series premiere. Dollhouse *is* back the the week after. I don't blame you for being so fucking confused though.

  • April 10, 2009, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Would hate to see this show cancelled.

    by knowthyself

    Just as it was really getting good. Its a great show. Love the concept. Whedons writing is brilliant as always.

  • April 10, 2009, 12:09 p.m. CST

    WTF is happening to network TV?

    by FastEddie8139

    Is there going to be anything on the four major networks worth watching next season? Oh, right, I forgot, five nights a week of Jay Leno, the uncomedian.

  • April 10, 2009, 12:11 p.m. CST

    wcme: Just post the link to Futon Critic already

    by buffywrestling

    if you aren't going to bother to format it yourself. And give credit, fer fucks sake. <p> btw, that is how Fox announced the skippage of "Epitaph One" and what started the fucking confusion in the first place.

  • April 10, 2009, 12:52 p.m. CST

    Dushku dushn't du it for me

    by wvroland

    I love the concept of the show and I enjoy every other actor/character on the show, but Eliza Dushku just annoys me. Heresy, I know, but she annoyed me in True Lies as well. I'd have preferred Felicia Day in the role, but maybe...maybe that's just me.

  • April 10, 2009, 1:53 p.m. CST

    this is why I don't watch TV shows anymore

    by nostairway

    They never give shows time to find an audience, and even when they have a show that has an audience they still sometimes pull the plug without giving the show closure (see the 4400). I'm so glad BSG was allowed to go 4 seasons and get a proper ending. It may never happen again I fear. Do any of these TV exec douchebags remember that shows like the X-files, Seinfeld and Cheers all had crappy ratings when they started? Apparently not. I would like to watch Dollhouse or Kings or any new sci-fi show but I know it'll get cancelled in three weeks so what's the point?

  • April 10, 2009, 2:24 p.m. CST

    buffywrestling

    by wcme

    Thanks for the love. I'll be over for dinner at 6. Have the wine chilled, and the dog crated. (The first hour is a rerun of the season finale, thus my mistake. You are correct - the season premire is at 9.)

  • April 10, 2009, 2:33 p.m. CST

    wcme

    by buffywrestling

    Crating the dog isn't some weird sex thing, is it? Because there are some thing I just won't do. Without cash up front.

  • April 10, 2009, 3:51 p.m. CST

    Why I hate Whedon, a short essay

    by MegaBaltar5000

    Why I hate Joss Whedon <p> By Gauis Baltar <p> I'm a only a simple farmer, yet I see Joss's writing as crap. <p> When I was but a young Caprican lad, I turned on my non-rounded corner tv, and saw adverts for a show called "starbuck the vampire slayer". AFter 1 episode, I decided it was for little girls, whom else would such tripe be peddled to? <p> The sequel "angel" was nothing like the type of angels I know. Number Six was not in this show, she's the only angel I care about. Bad casting. <p> Then we have "Firefly", a show set in space. Well whoop dee fucking doo, I'm in space evryday. And the sequel sucked too. No one had ftl's. <p> Never saw Dollhouse, we put all the data discs containing it on the galactica when she sailed into the sun. <p> *From the journal of Gauis Baltar, located in the Smithsonian instituE; circa 150 thousand plus years ago *

  • April 10, 2009, 3:55 p.m. CST

    Crating the dog

    by MegaBaltar5000

    It's a sex move, similar to the Cincinnati Chili Twister, where you throw condiments at your partner while "crating the dog" right in her anus. You must use Jalapenos if some one requests "BOrder style".

  • April 10, 2009, 6:26 p.m. CST

    EvilWizardGlick: Buffy Maturity

    by Media Messiah

    Yes, there were emotionally stunted characters in regard to maturity...but that is true of life--look around, many of your friends in their early 20s tend to be emotionally immature, but do you recall the season where Buffy and Spike had their sexual 9 1/2 Weeks, or the season when Willow became gay? That was very mature stuff? And of course, we would have seen more of that if there were continued seasons of the show, for instance, the Buffy Season 8 comic book features Buffy having lesbian sex. So the series was slowly building toward more mature vestas, but there was only so much they could do with such subject matter on commercial television.<BR><BR>Now imagine a show like Buffy, given a Dead Like Me vs. Secret Diary of A Call Girl, Sex In The City, and or The L Word treatment on premium cable channels like HBO or Showtime, wouldn't that be something to see? A genre series that doesn't pull its punches, and isn't asked to.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:05 p.m. CST

    Eliza

    by Hercules

    Tushcute

  • April 10, 2009, 8:31 p.m. CST

    Eliza Dushku needs to get naked...

    by HB_Dad

    That is the only thing that will save the show!

  • April 10, 2009, 8:39 p.m. CST

    This is a pretty cool episode

    by kyle051554

    I didn't expect that DeWitt would ever be a client. Plus, ignoring that Sierra and A. Sato look completely different, the NSA infiltration was pretty badass.

  • April 10, 2009, 8:56 p.m. CST

    THis show

    by antimcgyver

    needs a second season.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:01 p.m. CST

    It's definitely getting better

    by kyle051554

    I watched the first two episodes and then stopped, but I decided to watch that episode a few weeks ago (with Patton Oswald) and got hooked.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:04 p.m. CST

    Wow.

    by mentatduke.com

    Well folks. Looks like we just experienced some television excellence. If the show were like this every week it could match even Alias or the best episodes of 24. Outstanding character moments surrounded by clever plot and structure. Some of the best I've seen for some time outside of "Lost". The preview for next week looked cheezy though. Curse this uneven show.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:11 p.m. CST

    EASILY the best episode yet.

    by CatVutt

    Now THAT's the kind of shit that could make this show work. Obviously, the characters have been as thin as fuck to date...but keep loading on the plot twists and turns, and suddenly it's highly watchable. Finally a little of that Whedon touch that plays against your expectations. I sure as hell didn't see November's reveal coming that soon. Again, now that I'm starting to get into this a little bit, it's almost certainly going to be cancelled.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Great Ep

    by rtms

    Seriously they need more eps like this where Echo is not the only story or main story, but the ensemble is. It's much more interesting when they do shows like this, than having whinny Echo/Caroline all by herself. I was confused for most of the ep thanks to mishearing Echo at the beginning, I thought she said a "she messed up" not he so I was thinking any of the females had screwed up. So cool that Echo even mind swiped still remembered enough to take out her enemy.And the ending was sad but did anyone notice that as she said her lines she was looking at Boyd the whole time?

  • April 10, 2009, 9:26 p.m. CST

    Nice episode!

    by Rinse

    Last week and this week's EPs finally feel like I'm watching a good show. Story and characters were engaging on every level, and the pacing didn't feel all weird. Too bad it took 7 episodes to find its footing -- shows can't afford to take that long to ramp up these days, I guess.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:49 p.m. CST

    Best episode yet

    by K00m0

    That is all.

  • April 10, 2009, 9:59 p.m. CST

    First-rate episode.

    by Hercules

    This appears to be first produced teleplay credited to Andrew Chambliss, longtime assitant on "Crossing Jordan" and "Heroes."

  • April 10, 2009, 9:59 p.m. CST

    Tushcute: I Like That Herc

    by Media Messiah

    Ha! She is a beautiful woman, isn't she?

  • April 10, 2009, 10:09 p.m. CST

    If Fox is stupid enough to cancel this on broadcast....

    by thecomedian

    Then they should consider flipping it exclusively to HULU. More people are watching Hulu everyday. It is the future and advertisers have more of an incentive because you can't fast forward past the commercials like you can on a DVR box. I watch more shows on Hulu than I do on my TV. Who needs on-demand or DVR if you've got a computer with the right video card the show actually look better than they would on an SD TV. Anyhow, If Fox burn Joss on this he should really consider working a deal with Hulu. It would be their 1st original show and it would do just fine and probably keep the same budget.

  • April 10, 2009, 10:37 p.m. CST

    thecomedian

    by NoQuarter

    Sadly, I'm quite sure that ad revenue generated from Hulu wouldn't even come close to being able to pay for the show's production costs.

  • April 10, 2009, 10:50 p.m. CST

    No Quarter....

    by thecomedian

    I would agree with you to an extent but I think it's a much easier sell to the advertisers than you think it is and some costs can be cut. About 60 percent of this show take place in the same dingy soundstage with sets that Joss recycled from Angel and Buffy and the rest is cookie cutter episodic exteriors that you can shoot anywhere in Los Angeles, which they're pretty much already doing. Crew wise I'm sure they can just go non union since the teamsters are behind the times and don't give a rats ass about internet shows(yet). Creatively there are plenty of talented young WGA writers paying their dues doing webisodes for network show like Heroes and The Office and the production value on the webisode spinoffs for most of the network shows is on par with broadcast. In fact the "Heroes Destiny" webisodes are actually better production quality than Dollhouse. So I don't think it's impossible. If they don't do it someone eventually will.

  • April 10, 2009, 11:20 p.m. CST

    Tried to be more open minded on Miracle Laurie, but

    by JuanSanchez

    I still don't get it.

  • April 10, 2009, 11:58 p.m. CST

    This episode...

    by ciroslive

    gives hope to us geeks who wish to bed a British MILF. at least that's how I view this series...

  • April 11, 2009, 12:20 a.m. CST

    Man, this show is fucking dark.

    by Raymar

    Really depressing. Who am I rooting for again?

  • April 11, 2009, 1:02 a.m. CST

    This was a great episode

    by NoQuarter

    Chuck was also really, really strong this week (and has been mostly all season). I hope both shows are back next year.

  • April 11, 2009, 1:38 a.m. CST

    Juan: because you're part of the theme

    by necgray

    One of the themes Dushku and Joss want to explore with the show is perception and sexuality. Some of us think Miracle is tasty, others do not. Some like the lass playing Sierra, others do not. It's all subjective. They complicated it further by doing what they did with Miracle's character. What is the implication about her now that we know what we know?

  • April 11, 2009, 2:41 a.m. CST

    Hmmm, I want to hope

    by Bass Ackwards

    I'm a Whedon fan, and waited through the first part of the season to be rewarded by a pretty good episode a few weeks ago, and then, thinking the show had finally found its footing settled in the following week for that terrible college campus follow up episode. Tonight was another pretty good episode (that makes two, for those keeping count, though last week's was definitely above average), but sheez, the preview for the next episode looks not so great. Hopefully I'll be surprised. Someone above mentioned this point, and its worth agreeing with, when this show is about the Dollhouse, utlizing the dolls as tools/devices and exploring the characters and implications around this place, its pretty great. When this show is about ONE doll (i.e. Eliza) its pretty subpar (especially when the other dolls are being played to much more convincing effect by the other actors, spotty british accents aside).

  • April 11, 2009, 3:15 a.m. CST

    Quick question for people who know about Dollhouse...

    by Amy Chasing

    Posted this in the Terminator thread but might have more luck here... How much of Dollhouse can we blame on Joss Whedon? I gotta admit I'm in the camp that thinks the show is mostly lame - it just seems to be missing the trademark humor of other Whedon works, most of the stories aren't particularly interesting or well written, and Dushku is not credible playing different characters (probably partly due to poor character writing). <P> Now Whedon doesn't write all the episodes, but he is the executive producer. Dushku is a producer. Which has more say? I just can't believe after Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Dr Horrible that Dollhouse is all Whedon's work/fault.

  • April 11, 2009, 3:42 a.m. CST

    Alpha and Echo knew each other in another life...

    by Barry_Woodward

    The preview for the next episode "Haunted" establishes that the Dollhouse can extract a person's memories after death. What if the Dollhouse salvaged the memories of Caroline's boyfriend Leo (from episode 7 "Echoes") and at some point Alpha was imprinted with them? It would explain his obsession with her and it would make their eventual meeting much more personal.

  • April 11, 2009, 3:43 a.m. CST

    The Episode Was Top Shelf

    by Media Messiah

    Wonderfully executed and Eliza and the rest of the cast were magnificent. A great script, great direction...and great dominatrix outfit!!!

  • April 11, 2009, 3:47 a.m. CST

    @Chasing

    by Arguendo

    13.2%? Does i really matter? If television production is like any other job, the end result is a mixture of original intent and about twenty different other hands in the pot. Joss's comments about what he's "learned" about making shows for major network tv only seem to reconfirm this. If Joss has a failure, I think it is less in the creative department as much as it is in the network tv politics department. He just isn't clever enough to get his ideas out in the right way -- so he does end up reworking it in a way that he hopes would satisfy both the networks (and anyone else that is vested) and his intent; but I don't think he pulls of these compromises that well. So take from that what you will -- is it Joss's fault that the ideas are sometimes weak? Perhaps. However, I think the issue is less about the ideas than the effective execution (including the politicking and revising required between idea generation and broadcast). Is that still Joss's responsibility? It is, as well...

  • April 11, 2009, 3:54 a.m. CST

    No one screwed over Whedon

    by A for Aristocrat

    Firefly was cancelled because it wasnt profitable. When Serenity was released it bombed no matter how people want to revise history. Whedon has had great success in the comic industry but even if every issues was bought by a different person Buffy only sold over a 100,000 issues.<p> Whedon has a small vocal cult following that will rebuy everything he does if he just lays down another commentary track. Though that translates to money down the road it doesnt do fox any good right now. Dollhouse isnt a charity. Fox invested millions in the show and gave Whedon a fortune to make it. They wanted it to succeed. You migt as well blast Whedon for not spending his money to make more Dr. Horrible.<p> A side note, if some of you are right and Dollhouse is about how Hollywood screwed over Whedon then he is pretty ungrateful. Hollywood made Whedon a multi millionaire, a hero of the left, and gave him a legion of fans. I feel really bad for the guy because a couple of his shows didn't get more seasons.

  • April 11, 2009, 4:03 a.m. CST

    Amy Chasing: It's Whedon's Fault

    by Media Messiah

    But, that said, they have had about 5 good to great episodes now. I just think the lesser episodes should have been hidden and scrapped for parts...but when Joss got it right on Dollhouse, he got it right, and when he got it wrong, he got it wrong, big time. I think a lot of this problem has to do with the lighter episodes which have been a dodge, a result of what he cannot do on network television, so we get something else, just bad throw away episodes like the college campus story which never should have aired, at least in its final form, it is so bad! I mean, let's even look at last night's episode which was pretty great, imagine what Whedon would have been able to do with it on HBO with Eliza in full dominatrix outfit pleasing her client, and any unexpected resulting complications with the client getting-out of hand sexually??? That can be explored on HBO and Showtime, but not on Fox...and that hurts the series ultimately. The theme of the show is too mature for a network series. It is too bad that Fox doesn't start a premium movie channel which can compete with HBO and Showtime, while offering original adult content, as Dollhouse with an non rating or an NC-17 rating, would be perfect for it. The could then take the proceedings up 10 notches, or more, in terms of in your face eroticisms, violence, and adult themes/situations and language, which the show and the audience both desperately need, and deserve.

  • April 11, 2009, 4:09 a.m. CST

    Amended: Amy Chasing: It's Whedon's Fault

    by Media Messiah

    But, that said, they have had about 5 good to great episodes now. I just think the lesser episodes should have been hidden and scrapped for parts...but when Joss got it right on Dollhouse, he got it right, and when he got it wrong, he got it wrong, big time. I think a lot of this problem has to do with the lighter episodes which have been a dodge, a result of what he cannot do on network television, so we get something else, just bad throw away episodes like the college campus story which never should have aired, at least in its final form, it is so bad! I mean, let's even look at last night's episode which was pretty great, imagine what Whedon would have been able to do with it on HBO with Eliza in full dominatrix outfit pleasing her client, and any unexpected resulting complications with the client getting-out of hand sexually??? That can be explored on HBO and Showtime, but not on Fox...and that hurts the series ultimately. The theme of the show is too mature for a network series. It is too bad that Fox doesn't start a premium movie channel which can compete with HBO and Showtime, while offering original adult content, as Dollhouse with an non rating or an NC-17 rating, would be perfect for it. They could then take the proceedings up 10 notches, or more, in terms of in your face eroticisms, violence, and adult themes/situations and language, which the show and the audience both desperately need, and deserve.

  • April 11, 2009, 4:14 a.m. CST

    Arguendo

    by Amy Chasing

    I was just wondering so yes I think it matters. Some people on these boards seem to ready to crucify Joss Whedon and Whedon alone for the way Dollhouse has turned out. I'm just wondering if he had the same input to this show as he did to his previous creations, and if not then what other factors have come into play to make Dollhouse different from, say, Firefly (of which I enjoyed every episode).

  • April 11, 2009, 7:48 a.m. CST

    this isn't whedon's fault...

    by champvinyl

    I don't really care either way, honestly i don't really even understand this so called "cult following" the guy has... maybe that's because I've never watched a single episode of Buffy (because i don't have a vagina, hah). <p> The network TV machine works in a really fucked up fashion, FOX did pretty much *nothing* to help the show out, on top of that whedon is the producer/show runner (much like JJ abrahms is on LOST), he doesn't have outright say and control over everything , other people write and direct on episodes... and he might not have as much creative input as he perhaps should. <P> All that nonsense being said, Dollhouse is still in the top third of regular network Tv shows and i really don't understand why it would be cancelled. <p> Oh,... right... everyone working at FOX is a lobotomized failed abortion. At least they're still employing Dr. Walter Bishop, maybe he can put all the execs into the sensory deprivation tank. And fry their retarded little brains.

  • April 11, 2009, 7:49 a.m. CST

    Travis the new handler...

    by V'Shael

    He doesn't look like an actor at all. I know he was only screen for a few seconds, but everything about him screamed temporary red-shirt bit-player extra.

  • April 11, 2009, 7:58 a.m. CST

    Amy Chasing: Whedons fault?

    by V'Shael

    No, but his responsibility, yes. <p> He's the show runner, the exec producer, which means ultimately the buck stops at his desk. <p> Obviously there are things outside of his control in terms of scheduling, marketing, advertising. All of those things can contribute to the success or failure of a show. <p> But in terms of script, acting, direction, quality control... these things are the day to day job of the exec producer. Hire the right people. Delegate tasks to effective people. Oversee the output. Make changes as needed. <p> The output is the show, and the show has not been good. I'm not the only one who thinks so. <p> Episodes like tonights one are swaying me more towards thinking that the show has potential, because in subtle ways they were finally addressing some real fundamental issues. Namely, if the technology existed, it wouldn't be used to pimp to rich losers. It would be used on heads of state. The powerful. And almost certainly on EVERYONE who works there. <p> Agencies like the NSA would be all over something like that. <p> However, they are slowly showing this in the show, and also showing that the level of technology in the world of the show, doesn't quite match the level of tech we know in the real world. <p> These subtle, yet important, things, should have been established much earlier in the show. They are part of the painted backdrop, against which the weekly episodes have to play out.

  • April 11, 2009, 9:56 a.m. CST

    too little too late?

    by Mr_X

    great ep, but hasn't everyone deserted this show ? i liked the mission impossible vibe running throught the ep. I agree the new handler.. will be dead soon. he wears a suit two sizes big for him and has a dodgy moustache. I'm liking victor more and more

  • April 11, 2009, 9:58 a.m. CST

    thanks V'Shael

    by Amy Chasing

    that answers my question. I too hope Dollhouse gets more time to get better.

  • April 11, 2009, 11:51 a.m. CST

    I liked that one

    by _Maltheus_

    I wasn't gonna sour my mouth with this ep, after that phenomenal Terminator, but that was probably the best Dollhouse to date. It's been getting better as the eps have gotten less Echo-centric.

  • April 11, 2009, noon CST

    It's Amy Chasing's fault!

    by Leafar the Lost

    I just wanted to write that for no rational reason. Last night's Dollhouse was a good episode. However, one good episode will not make up for the other lousy ones. The main problem is not most normal television viewers will not get Dollhouse. Whedon's "Buffy" and "Angel" series had a broad appeal to non-geeks. Even my wife knows what a vampire is. The Dollhouse has to be explained too much, and most normal people won't get it. The truth is that unless Whedon pulls something out of his ass (like JJ Abrams casting Leonard Nimoy on Fringe) the Dollhouse will not be renewed, and Joss can kiss his career on TV goodbye...unless he is planning a Buffy reunion movie. That could still work.

  • April 11, 2009, 12:05 p.m. CST

    whedon should try another network.

    by alice 13

    like- maybe FOX.<p>if he cant get a show there then he should try<p> FOX. <p> if all else fails he could try approaching<p> FOX.

  • April 11, 2009, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Story arcs vs stand-alones

    by K00m0

    The show "Dollhouse" is finally establishing a story arc and series lore that appears to be worthy of Whedon's reputation, but commercially successful "broadcast" television only succeeds when viewers can tune in on occasion and jump right in. <p> Dollhouse's stand-alone episodes are very weak, and will probably remain so if the day-by-day operations of the place are little more than whoring out the dolls to people seeking repressed sexual fantasy (as mentioned in this episode, it's mostly homosexual in nature...hey, writers! isn't that the kind of relationship you are supposed to champion in modern LA?). <p> I am really digging the show now (one of only three weeklys I'm following as they air), but I can't see this ever catching on with viewers. Maybe Whedon should try cable next time to reach out to an audience a little more patient, and if for nothing else to draw in people who can't find enough free online-porn such as Media Messiah.

  • April 11, 2009, 12:27 p.m. CST

    Possibly the best episode so far

    by henrydalton

    Certainly up there with Ep 6. Good to see after last week's little wobble. Hope they can really keep it up now till the end, I was worried the season was only going to have one really excellent episode!

  • April 11, 2009, 12:31 p.m. CST

    Now fully up to date

    by theGoldbergV

    I wasn't gonna bother after the first 3 eps but I gave it a go and the last 4 have been pretty great (college campus one was a bit naff, but had its moments). Now of course its time for the inevitable cancellation just as the show finds its feet. It seems to get a lot of stick for having unlikeable characters, er Sopranos anyone? One of the greatest shows ever and you wouldn't want any of them as a neighbour...

  • April 11, 2009, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Yawn

    by smeagol2

  • April 11, 2009, 6:20 p.m. CST

    Really where this is going now...

    by MrNovember

    Now that we've gotten away from the Fox-mandated stand alone fiasco's this show is really starting to show the potential that the premise offered. I really don't understand some of the premise criticisms thus far, things like "who am i supposed to cheer for". That's pathetic along the same lines as watching shows because you need something new to 'Ship' for. Have you never approached a story that didn't have a simple black and white, good and bad dynamic? Are you too daft to appreciate moral explorations without having some unrealistic hero always coming out on top? Criticsm: "It doesn't have Whedon's humor". Well no shit, neither does 99% of the other programs on TV because he's not writing those shows. And he's not re-writing his past shows, if thats what you want buy the DVDs and watch them ad nauseum. I genuinely don't understand people that choose to subject themselves to entertainment that is made to be one thing and yet continually bitch when that thing isn't something else. It's baffling.

  • April 11, 2009, 8:10 p.m. CST

    evilwizardglick

    by johnnyangelheart

    I think you were suggesting that Buffy never matured? I take it you missed seasons 6 and 7. Go back and watch them on dvd. I think you'll see that Buffy matured quite a bit after the death of her mother. Enjoy!

  • April 11, 2009, 9:20 p.m. CST

    contractually obligated responses

    by Amy Chasing

    @ MrNovember: the "it seems to be missing the trademark humor of other Whedon works" is a valid criticism if the main reason you're watching Dollhouse is because it's a Joss Whedon production and you enjoyed all his previous efforts. It's kinda like buying all the albums of a band and liking their old stuff more than their new stuff. Sure they will evolve over time but IMHO Whedon's humor and wit has become such a key ingredient of his work that it's like having The Beatles without Paul. You have to wonder if Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Dr Horrible would all have been as successful if they lacked Whedon's humor. Dollhouse is the first example I can think of. And how's everyone finding it? <P> @ Leafar: you probably should end all your posts with how you started that one. Not that it really matters since I kinda thought it went without saying. ;) BTW, I think you used a double-negative where you probably didn't want to. Gotta check that grammar. Make sure your rational musings are what you really mean otherwise we may start thinking you don't know what you're talking about...

  • April 11, 2009, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Amy....

    by MrNovember

    I agree with you for *why* they're complaining, but the logic of that analogy doesn't stand. If you listen to an album and its lacks the same qualities that you enjoyed in the other albums than you stop listening to the album you don't like. <p>My point wasn't that I don't think thats a valid reason not to watch the show, it's that I don't understand how after 2 months this is still a recurring complaint week after week. <p><p>To go back to your analogy, it would be like a metal band releasing an album of acoustic ballads and then fans complaining about the lack of shredding guitar solo's every time you listened to it. That's not what this album is about. <p><p> "And how's everyone finding it?"<p>I'm liking it. But i'm liking it for what it is and what I think its going to be, not for what I want it to be. There are tons of shows that I start out watching because I think they're going to be one thing and the end up not being that. You know what I do? I stop watching. I don't spend every week lamenting and complaining about the fact that the show is something that it was never intended to be.

  • April 11, 2009, 10:30 p.m. CST

    Strongest Yet

    by Champoozie_Jones

    Another good episode, actually maybe the best yet and that’s a big relief. I was afraid they were going to go straight back to the wacky doll adventure of the week after last weeks “it was only a dream” episode. Very glad to see they didn’t. If the show can stick with these kinds of episodes it has some real potential. Only three more eps left for the season from what I’ve read, so I got high hopes the show is going to end the season on a high note. All around there were a lot of very strong plot lines being played out this week and I’m hoping to see those continue in the remaining episodes. For the first time with this show I’m looking forward to next week.

  • April 11, 2009, 10:43 p.m. CST

    MrNovember... welcome to the AICN talkbacks.

    by Amy Chasing

    Where people will repeat themselves week after week after week. :) <P> I understand what you're saying. I too keep watching Dollhouse to see if "what it is" is going to capture my imagination and attention this week. For the most part it hasn't and I have to wonder why. Personally I think the writing isn't as good as previous Whedon efforts, but I'm willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt because I can see where it could potentially go and that interests me. Either it will improve, ala Babylon 5, and become good. Or it will fail, ala Heroes, and I won't bother anymore. <P> But being a fan of Whedon makes me wonder if he's not going to employ his humor in this show, what's else is he going to use to fill that gap. I'm still waiting to find this out, but until then I find the show rather unfulfilling - hence why I lament the loss of the humor. It would fix it alot.

  • April 11, 2009, 10:57 p.m. CST

    Bass Ackwards

    by Champoozie_Jones

    I'd agree with you completely. I think Dushku is the wink link in the show. Any time she's not the main focus, like this week's ep., the show does much better.

  • April 11, 2009, 11:55 p.m. CST

    Amy...

    by MrNovember

    I agree that on the whole average the writing has not been as strong as his other projects. But the issue with that statement is that we're working so far with a much smaller sample size for the Dollhouse average to cover up for his 'finding his footing' mistakes. Many of which as we know were a function of studio intervention. <p><p> I disagree with the premise that the humor has been 'lost' and that piling on more of it would fix anything. The humor is around in small doses ("did I just lose an argument to a doll?"), it just wouldn't work as such an omnipresent force. The reason his humor worked in his other shows is because they were premises that were not meant to taken seriously. Those were fantasy shows whereas this is a science-fiction show. Within a fantasy setting its okay to have your heroine making wise cracks while she's supposed to be fighting to the death. The Dollhouse is presented within a world essentially equally to our reality, some place Whedon has never explored, and it would be disingenuous for his characters to be like those he's written in the past. <p><p>All of his previous work was about characters, they were about how those characters functioned within their settings. This show is about a premise, it is about a world in which the technology to program people exists and what that means for humanity. Joss went the extra mile in bringing this to the forefront in 'Man On The Street' by bookending everything with the testimonials about what people would think about the existance of a Dollhouse. I think people's inability to draw and understand this distinction is what's leading to the continual dissatisfaction. <p><p> I appreciate that he's trying something new even if it doesn't end up being the perfect show. For example, in his previous work, the Ballard/Mellie relationship would follow the same will they/won't they, should they/shouldn't they, the start/they stop formula that he's used before. I'm sure he would find some unique and quirky ways to play it out, but in the end its redundant. I am much more interested in this situation he's created with Ballard/Millie, the layers of deception, disillusion and morality are far more intriguing than any retread triangle-relationship crap.

  • April 12, 2009, 2:15 a.m. CST

    A for Aristocrat - No one screwed over Whedon???

    by Dreamwriter

    Firefly was cancelled because it wasn't profitable, sure...and it wasn't profitable because FOX screwed it over. They showed the episodes out of order, waited until the LAST BROADCAST EPISODE aired to show the pilot (though that's the 2-hour episode that of course introduces all the characters and the overall situation), aired it on Fridays when nobody watches primetime TV, pre-empted it multiple times without telling anyone (2 weeks in a row once), cancelled after only 11 episodes (including the pilot as episode 11)... And then the movie did poorly, but only because they couldn't convince the studio to put it in open-release - they basically had a little roadshow taking the movie around the country, where it sold out 100% of the time.

  • April 12, 2009, 3:28 a.m. CST

    FOX actually wants their shows to succeed

    by A for Aristocrat

    Even though FOX doesnt know how to succeed they actually want to. They did not invest millions of dollars in Firefly just to make Whedon and a few of his rabid followers feel bad. If the money was there or even the potential to make money they would have invested in more Firefly product. They have even brought shows like Family Guy and Futurama DTV back. <p> People want to think if they just left Firefly on the air at some point everyone would wake up and realize what a great show it was. It would then become a huge franchise with movies and spin offs and validate that they knew how cool it was before everyone else did. I'm sorry but Firefly always had a limited niche market. I have to give Whedon credit for trying as hard as he did shopping it around to other networks but he couldn't even get the Sci fi channel to take it. It was amazing that he even got the movie made.

  • April 12, 2009, 5:20 a.m. CST

    Sorry, but no.

    by V'Shael

    If they wanted a show to succeed, they wouldn't air the episodes out of order. <p> Understand something. There was NO reason to do that. NONE. It's not like the shows weren't complete or waiting on Effects or something. <p> Fox would not air episodes of Hells Kitchen out of order because they know its a serial and they want it to succeed. <p> They didn't give a shit about Firefly. <p> Let me explain to you WHY sometimes a network wants its show to fail. <p> Contracts can be signed for a number of reasons. But once the contract is signed, for 13 episodes, say, the situation can change. People can be fired. New execs come in, who look at the show and decide they don't like it. <p> Or the original exec could look at the show and decide it's not what he thought he was paying for. <p> Either way, they want to be in a position to drop it (not renew it) and develop a new show from a new pilot. <p> But you can't usually, from a shareholder and business point of view, cancel a show that is doing well in the ratings. (You can if the show is really expensive to produce, and not able to cut costs.) <p> So you play havok with the schedule, pre-empt it, cut the advertising budget, etc. Or movie to the TV graveyard that is Friday nights. <p> Then you can justify cancelling the show. <p>They don't even make a loss by doing that. On a 13 episode run, the advertising rates were set by the previous sweeps ratings, which could have been for a different show.

  • April 12, 2009, 8:19 a.m. CST

    Great Episode!!!!

    by ZoeFan

    This might have been better than Episode 6.

  • April 12, 2009, 1:55 p.m. CST

    I won't say that Fox is deliberately screwing

    by buffywrestling

    over Dollhouse. In fact, I'll even concede that they have given it a more than fair chance considering - rating wise on any other night - we wouldn't have gotten this many episodes to begin with. However, the non-communication between Fox Studios & Fox Network that lead to this latest PR stupidity has damaged the chances of the show getting a renewal. And if you thought the chances of that happening were slim to none in the first place, you can see how damaging it actually is. <p> Also, A, I think you have jumped to a majorly misinterpted conculsion by thinking that because Whedon has written Dollhouse has an allegory about the studios, that he is somehow ungrateful for his success. That sort of rationaization came up time and again during the writer's strike and it is just as flawed now as it was then. It's about large corporations using the talent at their disposal towards their own ends, blatantly and unfairly, with little promise of compensation. And the grey part is, just like Dollhouse, people still volunteer to be a part of it.

  • April 12, 2009, 3:11 p.m. CST

    Slow start dictated by FOX

    by Projbalance

    If anyone who watches the show may or may not recall, as they were getting ready to premiere episode 6, Whedon spoke of how the tone of the show was going to change now that they had passed the five episodes mandated by FOX. Immediately with episode, the tone and arc of the show began to shift noticeably. If you want to talk about how long it took the show to find it's footing you can look to this as a valid reason, and yet another example of how FOX's corporate meddling ruins their products. And it isn't always true that a network will green light a show because they believe in it. If FOX has a first look deal with Mutant Enemy and Joss Whedon they may just be looking to keep him around on contract. That happens in the record industry; a band will have obvious clashes with the record company and may be looking to move on so the record company exercises their option and keeps the band on contract to the label for another 2 or 3 years, or how ever long it takes them to write, record and promote a new record. If FOX has such a deal with Whedon then they might be inclined to weigh how much they can invest in a show vs how much they can charge for advertising and the possible profits from a DVD sale and green light it as a way to exercise their option and keep Whedon around. And if he creates something that becomes a monster hit, then they have the benefit of that as well and they can go around hyping how much they have always believed in him and how they gave him so many opportunities to find his voice. For FOX, it's a win-win.

  • April 12, 2009, 5:44 p.m. CST

    Last Week's Stank on Ice, but this was GREAT!

    by chromedome

    Last week they wasted an opportunity with the plot, did the "it was all part of the master plan (it was all a dream) Reset Button" story, but this week's was super.<p>The reveal to Helo, the reveal about Boss Lady, the reveal about Mr. InSecurity--all super.<p>The only bad thing was that Pher Pher Binks did not die a horrible, permanent death. He is the ToHinder of this show--grinds the thing to an annoying stop every moment he is onscreen.

  • April 12, 2009, 5:44 p.m. CST

    I wont argue that FOX arent idiots

    by A for Aristocrat

    Honestly they are the worst studio around right now.They ruined AvP and X men but I dont accept that it is intentional. They honestly believe they are helping and that is why they switched episodes with Firefly. Now if someone can prove this is some Uwe Boll tax scheme where FOX makes money cancelling shows then I will accept that they are ruining these things on purpose. I just think FOX's ego is so big that they cant believe they are screwing things up. (and Rothman needs to be run out of town on a rail).<p> As for Dollhouses allegory, I still cant feel bad for Whedon, Esperson, Minear, and Deknight when they only got 10 million when they thought they should have gotten 100. Whedon is as corporate as FOX. If he was just doing it for the art he could give us 100 episodes of Dr. Horrible on his dime or spend 100,000 of his own money and fim what ever he wanted like The lost skeleton of Cadavra. Hell South Park has almost done away with everyone but Matt and Trey entirely.<p> To throw a small bone to FOX, they only reason there are any episodes of Firefly at all is because FOX made them. No other company in Hollywood wanted it. The reason Whedon went back to fox is because they are the only people that would make it. So ask yourself if it is better to have 13 episodes of these shows or none at all.

  • April 12, 2009, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Pher Pher Binks Must Die.

    by chromedome

    please....

  • April 12, 2009, 5:49 p.m. CST

    Whedon didn't go back to Fox...

    by chromedome

    Fox signed Dushku to a development contract.<p>Dushku went to Whedon.<p>Whedon helped Dushku out.

  • April 12, 2009, 7:06 p.m. CST

    Can someone please

    by Muki

    tell me what Echo said to Dominic right before he started shooting at her. It was something like "I needed another sign and that's why I let this conversation carry on as long as it has, because 20 seconds ago...." and then the rest I totally didn't get??? Can somebody enlighten me?

  • April 12, 2009, 7:19 p.m. CST

    An allegory is a extended metaphor,

    by buffywrestling

    a device he is using to give depth to the *story*. I highly doubt he is using it to try and make you feel bad for him. That projection says more about yourself than anything else. And frankly, I'm not going to get into another debate about what a talent's art is worth as I ran dry doing that during the writer's strike. However, for the record, the 40 minute Dr. Horrible cost around $250,000 (of Joss's money)to make. So your number analogy is also unrealistic.

  • April 12, 2009, 7:21 p.m. CST

    "20 seconds ago.... you unsnapped your holster"

    by chromedome

  • April 12, 2009, 7:23 p.m. CST

    Muki

    by buffywrestling

    I don't remember the exact words but she was referring to Dominic releasing the leather tab on his holster so he could draw his gun quicker.

  • April 12, 2009, 7:24 p.m. CST

    Ha! Jinx, Chromey :)

    by buffywrestling

  • April 12, 2009, 7:26 p.m. CST

    mmmfffeee rrsssLnnng mmmmph mumble mmmmpphmmm

    by chromedome

    mmmppffkknng dddjjjiiiikkkssssssssss!

  • April 12, 2009, 9:51 p.m. CST

    Buffywrestling

    by A for Aristocrat

    We are all so lucky to have you here to explain to us what Whedons work means and who we are as people. (Even if you are unable to comprehend the deeper allegorical meaning of Supernatural).<p> You are proving my point on Dr. Horrible. He spent his own money and didn't lose a dime. Even if he didnt make any money he could make several Dr. Horrible episodes. No one is complaining that Whedon is screwing them out Dr. Horrible. What some people do expect is for FOX to keep losing money on an unprofitable show whose message is "FOX screwed me." Its a great position for Whedon. If it succeeds he gets all the credit and if it fails he can blame it on FOX.

  • April 12, 2009, 11:37 p.m. CST

    A: First, you're welcome!

    by buffywrestling

    Second, maybe you could show me where I didn't "comprehend" anything allegorical on Supernatural? You will most likely have a difficult time, since I posted possibly two sentences ever on Supernatural and one of those was that I thought the LARP epiosde was hilarious. Supernatural is not my fandom, hence the no posting about it. <p> And again, the message of Dollhouse is NOT "Fox Screwed Me." When did I ever even say anything remotely like that?? You are fucking projecting again. <p> And if you go back and check, I've been saying from almost the very beginning that Dollhouse would be cancelled after the 13 episode run. My expectations were never high for Dollhouse. And I'm not even going to address the whole credit/blame thing of your last statement as it is fucking broad as the ocean. Can be applied to any showrunner with any studio.

  • April 13, 2009, 2:29 a.m. CST

    Muki

    by Champoozie_Jones

    Glad to see I wasn't the only one that found that bit of dialog indecipherable. I played it back several times and never could figure it out. Thanks buffywrestling for the save!

  • April 13, 2009, 5:31 a.m. CST

    The bit of dialogue I couldn't hear

    by henrydalton

    was what the asian chick said in the lift after she was looking at the hologram thingy. Ah well, still the best ep along with 6 :)

  • April 13, 2009, 8:24 a.m. CST

    That bit of dialogue that couldn't be heard...

    by Wungolioth

    ...was very bizarre. This has happened to me before with other shows, so I typically will roll back my DVR and mute the sound, so the closed captions will come up. Well, all the dialogue around that line came up, but the closed captions were absent right in that place, as if even the CC transcriptionist couldn't interpret it and just left it out. Very strange.

  • April 13, 2009, 9:15 a.m. CST

    Very disappointing

    by Mooly

    I have liked this series since the first ep despite the insane and unjustified level of hatred the show got. I'm honestly begining to wonder if this interweb thing does MORE to kill TV shows than anything else. I mean, if I was interested in a show and new nothing about it, I'd look on the net...then I'd see a million hate posts about how horrible the show is and had nothing to offer, made by people who clearly thought the show was something that it wasn't and never was intended to be. Then I probably wouldn't bother. I have little doubt that Dollhouse will go on to be yet another Whedon show (via Firefly) that 5 years from now, people will all be talking as if they watched and loved the show all along, yet if the number of people who claimed to have watched it actually did, it never would have gotten cancelled. Recent ep was another solid ep that showed the promise of the idea and where that idea was heading. Yet people continue to believe this show is purely about Dushku, and then bash her acting even though it is not one bit different than the acting from every other Whedon show and character ever. I can't help but feel Whedon is done because his so-called fans refuse to let him do anything other than quircky, nerdy, jokey shows that never try anything new.

  • April 13, 2009, 9:21 a.m. CST

    Aristocrat

    by Mooly

    If Fox was expecting massive profits from Dollhouse, then maybe they shouldn't have stuck it in the "friday night death slot" as people call it. Especially considering it was that same scheduling that killed Firefly, which is still a loved show despite Fox' supposed "best efforts". Second, if Fox wanted to make money off the show, then why would they pick it to experiment with their Fringe-esque, minimal advertising slots? Just treat it like a regular 40 minute "hour long" and get a large, broad range of advertising. Instead they chose to charge a premium for very few ads...and who will pay for that on a show in a death time slot? Oh, and Whedon has now made money from Dr. Horrible (which was pretty great) thanks to the DVD and Soundtrack sales.

  • April 13, 2009, 9:38 a.m. CST

    Not really Mooly

    by Champoozie_Jones

    I’d have to disagree with you in a number of points. First, the roll Dushku is playing is not like any of the other roles she’s played before. This roll requires her to be many different characters. What she does well is smart-ass, tough as nails fighter chick. She is a natural for that kind of thing. Unfortunately she doesn’t have the range the pull off the majority of the other types of characters she must play as being a doll. She’s painfully lacking in the skills needed to do that. That’s the problem here. When she’s on screen playing one of these characters that she doesn’t have the chops to pull off it’s painfully glaring next to the actors who can pull of their various rolls as a doll. <br> <br> Second, I don’t think any amount of time is going to change the fact that the first 6 or 7 episodes were very weak. I’ve stated before that those eps seem to be more about laying the groundwork for the greatness that has been the last few eps but 7 eps is a long time to go before getting to the good stuff. Unlike some of his fans, I’m not looking for Buffy vol. 2 or Firefly redux. I certainly enjoy Whedon’s brand of humor but I’m fully capable of enjoying his work minus his trademark humor…..that is, if it’s good. The last two episodes have been really good (maybe even great) and I’m hoping that’s what we get more of. At the same time, what came before those last two episodes was really bad. As long as he continues what he’s been doing on these last two eps, I hope the show keeps going. However, if the show was to go back to the whacky doll adventure of the week then it should be canceled.

  • April 13, 2009, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Champoozie

    by Mooly

    Here is how I see it. People keep bashign Dushku for her range, and then saying she is good as the tomboy fighter chick. Yet there was only one single character that I can remember that WASN'T the tombody fighter chick and that was the negotiator in the first ep. Every other time she is young, hot, everyday, girlfriend or the tomboy kick ass fighter. Yet people are bashing her "range" despite the fact the vast majority of characters she has played are exactly what they want. I'll admit the negotiator was weak, but i think it was more due to the fact they dressed her like a porn extra which made it hard to take her seriously. However, I think the Dushku basklash is very much undeserved and I don't think her acting is any different from Gellar on Buffy, or Boreanaz on Angel. The only difference is those shows got a change to build their characters, and the chance to see them in often humourous, fish-out-of-water situations. Second, here is the main issue as I see it. Joss has always been very literal in naming his shows. Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Dr.Horrible,etc. When I hear Dollhouse, that tells me the show is about the Dollhouse...NOT echo. Echo may be the main, but to me the show was always focuses, centered on the Dollhosue. I honestly think the episodes are getting better and better, not because there is less Echo, but because we are seeing more and more of what the idea originally was supposed to be. It was never intended to be Echo, crime of the week. It was supposed to be about the Dollhouse and its Dolls. Echo would just happen to be the main the way Mal was the main on Firefly - with Firefly still being a collaborative show with a regular cast of fleshed out characters. Unfortunately, the crime of the week start was necessary. I'm just not sure if it was necessary because Joss wanted to show what the dolls were for or could do, or because Fox insisted the show be Echo focused at the start because Fox wanted to sell a hot chick AND because they had a development deal with Dushku herself. But we're finally seeing what the show REALLY is and it's getting pulled because people would rather judge it for what it isn't that what it is. I'll agree, for whatever reason, the show started off slow which caused a lot of bad buzz. But the fact remains that the bad buzz was mostly based aroudn an idea of the show that wasn't what the show truly meant to deliver. I think this is clear by the latest couple eps which have backed what I've always been saying...the Dollhouse is the central Role, and Echo is merely the main player who will probably bring the place down...but not the ONLY player by any means. Too late though.

  • April 13, 2009, 11:51 a.m. CST

    FOX actually wants certain shows to fail, because...

    by Leafar the Lost

    ...the Executives running that network are evil motherfuckers. How else do you explain their decisions over the years? Stupidity? Yes, there is a certain amount of that. However, to continue to place TV shows on the Friday night fuck slot, knowing they will not find an audience and fail, cannot be explained away as stupidity. Only evil motherfuckers would continue to bring the hopes up of naive idiots like Joss Whedon, just to crush those hopes 13 episodes later. Only evil motherfuckers would keep promoting shows, knowing that they will be cancelled a few weeks later. You bastards!

  • April 13, 2009, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Mooly

    by Champoozie_Jones

    Actually there were more non-kick-ass characters than the negotiator. There was the blind girl in the cult compound as well as Patton Oswalt’s dead wife fill-in. I would also put the episode where she went to the university in that category. The episode where she was hunted in the mountains kind of started off as a wishy-washy character but she switched over to kick-ass chick about half way through and that’s when that ep got better. I think that episode illustrates her lack of range perfectly. She really couldn’t sell it until she went from being hunted to being the hunter. I guess I’ll have to disagree with you on this point. On certain types of characters she has to play, she just doesn’t pull it off half as well as the other doll actors. <br> <br> I do agree with you that the show is about the Dollhouse and that that is where it’s strength lies. Dushku plays a major part in what I guess we’d call the Dollhouse episodes (as opposed to the doll adventure of the week episodes) but she isn’t necessarily the main focus. So I’d agree with you that the Dollhouse episodes are where the show should be. And I could easily see the reason for those early eps being that Fox wanted a hot chick series to sell (stupid Fox). <br> <br> Honestly, I am hoping that the show will get another season and a chance to become what it was meant to be. I really liked the last two episodes and what I see as Dushku’s lack of range didn’t really affect my enjoyment of those two episodes at all. <br> <br> By the way, for those supporting the show, Joss has a link on his blog where you can vote to give Dollhouse another season. Might wanna check it out if you’d like to see the show get another season.

  • April 13, 2009, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Just seemed to be...

    by DrMorbius

    ...making it up as they went along! Big FIREFLY fan but firefly this ain't. If, in fact this is all true I will NOT invest in the DVD with the promise of a great 13th episode. Sorry JOSS, better luck next time!

  • April 13, 2009, 5:47 p.m. CST

    How to "save" television....

    by TheHichhiker

  • April 13, 2009, 5:56 p.m. CST

    How to "save" television....

    by TheHichhiker

    Damn enter key...<p> <p> Anyway, I've been saying this for close to 10 years - time to start making straight to consumer content. Be it straight to DVD, Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, Amazon Video, or whatever - there are a lot of ways to distribute content today - so that problem is solved. Now you need to get it profitable. So drop costs. Get rid of overpaid actors - most of them are NOT worth it (Eliza is a prime example), hire no-name up-an comers. Drop budget on effects- In the end, I would much rather watch many years worth of cheap effects and good writing vs more than a few episodes of eye candy stupidity. Make producing shows a business about overall show quality, not about Ad sales. Until this is done, we are going to be stuck watching crap like American Idol and Grays Insanity because thats all the people who are still watching TV watch. Note that everything good is getting canceled. Ratings are down across the board because people just don't watch live TV as much. People view DVDs, DVRs, online, etc - and NONE of that actually translates to ratings. So change the model.

  • April 15, 2009, 7:45 p.m. CST

    That's not irony...

    by Arguendo

    I'm sure this thread is long abandoned, but I was rewatching. The best line in the episode: "That's not irony. No one gets that one right." If you didn't catch that -- you probably need to look up the definition of irony...

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