Cool News
‘It's Why I'm Here!!’ He’s Our You!! LOST 5.10!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
I think tonight “Lost” returns to its single-character flashback format. Each week we’ll maybe learn why each of the returning Sixers decided to come back to the island, starting with Sayid.
ABC says of “He’s Our You,” featuring the return of Jon Gries as Roger Linus:
Things begin to unravel when one of the survivors goes rogue and takes matters into their own hands -- risking the lives of everyone on the island. Guest starring are Doug Hutchison as Horace Goodspeed, Zuleikha Robinson as Ilana, Reiko Aylesworth as Amy, Sterling Beaumon as young Ben, Patrick Fischler as Phil, Eric Lange as Radzinsky, Jon Gries as Roger Linus, William Sanderson as Oldham, Sayed Bedreya as Iraqi father, Xavier Raabe-Manupule as 12-year-old Iraqi boy, Dmitri Boudrine as Ivan, Michael Hardy as Floyd, Joe Toro as bartender, Achilles Gacis as guy in car and Anthony Keyvan as young Sayid. "He's Our You" was written by Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz and directed by Greg Yaitanes.
9 p.m. Wednesday. ABC.
Blu-ray Lost Sale!!
Sci-Fi DVD Sale!!
Blu-ray Lost Sale!!
Sci-Fi DVD Sale!!
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+ Expand All
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First!!!!!!
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Rematch from season one, Go!
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Don't want any spoilers.
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24 talkback is up early a.m. Dollhouse talkback? Vomit.
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at least for awhile, I didn't think I'd miss them till they were gone for awhile
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Though I enjoyed last weeks episode, it was definitely one of those transition episodes that is meant to get all the players where they need to be. Last week was the set up to the awesomeness that will begin this week.
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I've actually started to miss the episodes that were character-centric.
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and we'll surpass LAST WEEK'S Lost TB on the Top 10 board.
Sayid kicks ass. -
Is he Ben's father?
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How come Jack, Kate, Sayid, etc... had to get on a plane, create the crash as closely as possible to the original, do all this weird crap and hope they crash on the island, but at the same time submarines, freighters, and sail boats are able to come and go as they please, no problems? If the island's always moving, which is why they had to take that exact flight, why can the boats find the island, and why couldn't the losties just take a boat?
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Breaking the bullies' necks for trying to steal his lunch money. Spinoff, anyone?
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I think it was harder to find when it was skipping around. Or it may just be that means by which they got to the island wasnt available anymore after Widmores team attacked. I dunno. Dont think about it.
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when the donkey wheel gets turned, therefore, it isn't always moving.
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I think it's more that they only know where its gonna be a certain amount of time ahead, and a boat takes a hell of a lot longer than a plane to get into position. It makes sense to me why they would take a plane. Also, if we're to believe everyone who has come to the island came for some "purpose" or has a destiny, just like everyone seems to, then the way they get there would seem to be important. The Island, or fate, or hatever you want to say, brought them there in a plane. The only way itll let them come back is in similiar fashion. Its just one of those scifi twists. deal.
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Mrs Hawking specifically said like 3 or 4 episodes ago that the island is always moving. Why do people not listen or remember and then come here and say things like they know what they are talking about?
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10. You have a pet named after a LOST character.
9. You are typing on this talkback using an Apple II Plus microprocessor.
8. Your main diet consists of Fish Biscuits.
7. You have a son or daughter named after a LOST character.
6. You secretly hope 'the numbers' will actually win you the lottery.
5. You jerk off to a picture of Benjiman Linus every night.
4. You stopped referring to the room you are living in as your Mom's basement...You make her call it "The Hatch".
3. You have a TON of stupid theories that will never come true on the show.
2. You drive a blue VW Bus.
And the number one sign you are a LOST fanatic...
1. You call your farts "Smoke Monsters". -
It's always moving now, not necessarily for all of time.
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Now, it's only certain people who can find the island by submarine/boat/etc. The Dharma Inititive (or more likely the Hanso Foundation or Hanso himself) do have this information which is co-opted by Ben and the Others. Richard Alpert has this information, as we have seen him off-island before the DI. And Widmore searched for this information for...20 years? 15 years?...before his freighter could find it. I'm pretty sure it has something to do either with the 'event windows' (i.e. wormholes) Ms. Hawking was talking about or the certain heading that Farrady sent Lapidus on in the helicopter (and look at that, it's mother and son who have that info). Anyone else who's come to island beyond those people have all, for some reason or another and blame fate/destiny/God/Jacob if you will, accidentally wrecked, crashed or washed up on the island.
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Faraday mentioned back in the beginning of Season 5 about the Dharma Package drops, something about calculating the angle of the drop to compensate for the movement of the Island....does anyone else remember this?
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Little bastard. I bet he stuck his penis in it.
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For whatever reason, Jack, Kate & Hurley were taken to the 70's. Perhaps Frank and the passengers got to the island by the more normal (and I use "normal" loosley) means, and the hoops that Jack and the gang had to jump through were for the time trip.
My memory fails me... The people that Micheal had to lure back to the Others to rescue Walt... That was Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sawyer, right? -
I've only been watching since the start of this season and have only watched the first five of the series so far, so excuse me if there are some holes in my knowledge of the islands mythology/backstory.
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"August commencement to my administration, standing stymied outside a saloon next to a degenerate tit-licker....I begrudge that man his capacity for happiness. I do."
First Trixie now EB..awesome. -
that ben remembered all the losties from being a kid and therefore had them all come back so they could participate in the great slaughter thats coming up in a year or so? He has to complete the cycle?
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in assuming everyone here has heard dharma lady?
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With ben standing triumphant over the mass grave cheering and living happily ever after until the losties show up again in the crash? Cut to fade out. Lost. The end.
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While I recommend you catch up via DVD's in the LOST hiatus...There are faster ways to catch up.
There's a YouTube video that's call LOST in 815...which will pick you up to speed in 8 minutes and 15 seconds...Think it stops at season 4 though....unless they updated it.
Also...Lostpedia.com has really great season/episode synopsis that only take a few moments to read.
TV Guide.com or EW.com has a series of videos entitled "In Preparation Of LOST Season 5" that will give you the cliff notes of all the major mysteries/characters and connections the 'average' viewer needs to speak coherently on these talkbacks.
Good luck...and Namaste. -
Lost has strayed so far from season ones plot direction it has become as bad as Heroes. And this season the writers have created a patchwork explanation to fill plot holes from previous episodes.
Sure it is fun. But it is nowhere near as interesting as suggested in season one. And definitely not consistently plotted from that season. -
Poopies and salami
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the only reason we keep watching is we love the characters (well, most of them). I wanna see what happens to Locke next, eventhough the show jumped the shark/fridge long ago.
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AVERT EYES if you don't want to knowhttp://tinyurl.com/dnfspu
So... Jin and others come out as 70 year olds from the temple and they are the Others who've been hiding in the temple for fear of interfering with history? Some people are saying the temple sits 'outside of time', so it’s not affected by the island time jumps. So they learned their lesson of messing with history and this third time out they "sit it out" in the temple. That would be gnarly as hell if we learned that Alpert, Ben, Widmore, Ms. Hawking and even Jacob answer to these Elder Others who turn out to be 70 year old Jin, Jack, Kate, etc.
So maybe Smokie scans people, scans their lives, and see's how many times they've gone through the time loop, and whether they've interfered with history, such as Juliet. When people have interfered with course correction/time/history, Smokie tries to drag that person into the outside-of-time temple, such as Locke and Montaud(sp). If Smokie can't get that person into the Temple, or the person is unrepentant, Smokie kills them, or possesses someone (the sickness) to take them out. -
What the fuck?
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http://tinyurl.com/dnfspu
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Holy shit! Your tired hate for LOST has made you...err...an idiot? You've already made your hate clear for a long time. There is no need to repeat it over and over again.
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Lost had better not end like BSG, ie all open ended and not properly resolved. Heads will be cracked...
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I watched the Season 1 DVDs in less than a week after watching the first episode of Season 2. Recently, I loaned all four seasons on DVD to a friend. He had never seen a complete episode...but he is now a LOST "addict." So, yeah, if someone can get a hold on the LOST DVDs, more power to them! But they should be prepared for the "addiction."
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I rewatched the episode and could clearly see the girl hiding in the background WITHOUT the need of changing the brightness on my tv. I find it really hard to believe (and disappointing) that no one- not the director, DP, camera operator, or the producers and video playback guy- could see a crew member hiding in plain sight, if that's what the case may be. It seems too weird/random to be a character like Claire or Charlotte, but it seems way too obvious to be a mistake at the same time.
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I actually enjoyed the ending of BSG. However, I have a feeling that everything will be revealed by the end...except for Libby. We will NEVER learn why she was in the institution with Hurley...or if she even remembered him.
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When you plan the very final ending scene of the entire series somewhere around the 4th episode of season 1, contract an actor to be in that scene no matter what, knowing time travel is definitely in play, you aren't "filling in plot holes" from previous seasons as the show goes on. You're revealing other sides to things that couldn't be revealed yet, or weren't revealed yet to keep it mysterious. Thats not a plot hole. What the sickness was as far as Rousseau was concerned was not a plot hole. What happened in Dharma was not a plot hole. They left those things to be discovered first hand in the narrative as the characters experience them. Other things were told in flashback.
You could not introduce time travel without Desmond. You could not introduce Desmond without the Hatch. You had to have Ben, Dharma, the Others. Things take time. They've known the larger, global secret for years now. Smokie, the Black Rock, Adam and Eve, the Whispers, Walt, Jacob, what the island is, all that has been known. It won't be revealed until the show is nearly over. Sorry dude, your definition of "plot hole" does not fit at all. Just because you don't like the skewed narrative they're using to tell the story doesn't mean the forgot things and left huge holes. Heroes, on the other hand, IS making it up as they go, is some of the most awful and pathetic writing I've ever seen in a primetime drama. It's insulting. There's no comparison. The LOST writers have a rich tapestry of philosophy, pop culture, religion, and science that they tap into in each and every show. You may not be a deep enough person to notice it, but it's there. The HEROES writers, however, sound like they never graduated from High School. Don't ever compare LOST to Heroes again or I'll hunt you down and you'll end up with much more than a nosebleed, brother. -
I agree. There are far too many questions for them to answer with the amount of episodes remaining, I just hope they cover the biggies. I enjoyed the BSG finale but was left a tad frustrated. What happened to Starbuck for example. Gotta move one, they're never gonna resolve that one for me!
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SPOILERS!! thats supposed to be from the season finale, yes. The part that intrigued me most was that Jin, Jack, etc. have all been in control of the Others from day one. Their past selves just don't know it yet. See, it even puts an irony on the word "Other". Because, we are the Others. No, I'm not trying to sound sarcastic or anything. I think its cool. I see you and some others don't like it.
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Lost and Kings are rocking all kinds of awesome this 2009 season.
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The following is mostly copy and pasted from spoilerslost.blogspot.com with a few of my thoughts interjected. "Our friends never time traveled back, they had a deal with the others to survive the purge and hid in the temple. the whole kidnapping shit in the first seasons was to keep their younger selves away and let things play out. The O6 must have done something pretty nasty to upset Ben and may be even instigated the purge. They managed to escape the gassing because they knew about it. Hid in the Temple and then Ben took out his revenge on the 815ers through Jacob's list! The people we haven't met yet are the O6 back in Dharma time. They never got to go back to the right time but lived out their days on the island. They didn't get purged for some reason and joined the others. But knowing what they know they couldn't interact with people so richard must have put them up into the temple. Maybe they even guided events on the island to get the same outcome. Jin, Jack, etc. have all been in control of the Others from day one. Their past selves just don't know it yet. See, it even puts an irony on the word "Other". Because, we are the Others. The people kidnapping the kids in season 1 during the night ARE Jack, Kate, etc. Their old age could be explained in that in the "Incident" they accidentally get sent back to the time of the statue, and the island has them age very slowly.
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Or even worse: lava rocks.
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That wouldn't make sense, with the Old Losties. The Others have been there since at least the 50s ("Jughead"), and Jacob was already their 'leader' (or something significant since it stopped Alpert in his tracks when Locke said his name). How or why would...well, I guess, they're saying the Hostiles/Others come in to the Dharma Initititive, maybe before the purging, and take these people...and make them their leaders? Or, they become part of their leadership council? Doesn't make any sense, especially since Locke (the only one said to be 'chosen' for leadership) isn't even there! -
C'mon!!! Gimme some damn LOST! I need my fix, bitch!
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Until AFTER tonight's episode. Can't talk spoilers.
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Mar 25, 2009 5:30:48 PM CDT
ok, this isn't a spoiler, but I'd like to get your thoughts
by billboefett
Two versions of yourself CAN be in the same time... remember Sawyer watching Claire give birth? Younger Sawyer was there. Or Locke seeing the light on the Swan? Younger Locke was there. So this completely rules out why Sun and Ben didn't flashback.
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you need to read the full post from the link I originally gave a few posts above. If there's a timeloop where these events happen over and over, somewhere Jack and Kate and Sawyer are going to learn from their mistakes Groundhog Day style and maybe avoid the purge. They jump back in time before the 1950s and integrate with the Others. They become key Others, just like Locke did, and just like Sawyer did with Dharma, and stay on the island. They are bigtime Others when the 815 crash happens. They are hiding in the temple. It makes perfect sense.
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It could be a sort of purgatory without it actually being purgatory. Doomed to repeat, or to watch themselves repeat the same mistakes until they figure shit out. That sounds plausible. Only to be freed of the loop when redemption happens. Hrm...
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Why are you guys thinking there'll be a 'timeloop'? For what reason? I think that would be a crazy twist, as per the spoiler link, but I think it would limit the last season of the show so much, as far as many of the lead performers are concerned.
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is it just me or does that sound like the plot of groundhog day?
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the reason why Ben and the Others have detailed files on all the 815ers is because... the 815ers wrote those files themselves! Ben told Alex that the 815ers couldn't go to the Temple; indeed if some of the 815ers were already there, it would make sense that they couldn't go. Hurley eats the old crackers while Ben uses the mirror to signal Older Hurley at the Temple. Hurley's voice is heard on the radio transmission reciting the numbers. Ben doesn't remember Jin being alive in the 70s, which either means time can change, or Jin "disappeared" before Ben saw him. I'd thought "dead", but maybe "Templed" is better. This ties in nicely with a comment Michael Emerson made in one of the recent interviews posted here on Dark's site. He said we'll find out that Ben answers to a lot more people than we've been aware of.
I do appreciate the delicious irony implied, i.e. that he's been answering to older versions of the Losties themselves.
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DarkUFO's site, copy and paste. Sorry.
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It's a timeloop because the Adam and Eve Skeletons found by Jack and kate in the cave in season 1, episode 4, "Walkabout" are going to turn out to be prominent characters, like Jack+Kate, or Sawyer+Juliet, or Sun+Jin, or Rose+Bernard, or my personal favorite, Ji Yeon+Aaron. Those skeletons WILL turn out to be some prominent couple that is now alive because Darlton said the skeletons will prove that time travel has been in play since the beginning and vindicate the writers as not "making it up as they go along".
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No spoilers:
"As long as anyone hasn't constructed their own unbreakable ideas over what's possible then this finale rumour shouldn't be a problem if it's true, Some of the worst enemies of the show are those who think they know what the writers can and can't do though, if they stopped the ego trip and went with the flow they'd be less frustrated.
Just looking at the recent poll over the timeline issue, for example, and more than half appear to have decided their idea is the only possible one, despite there being no conclusive evidence either way. I don't understand why they do this, it spoils their enjoyment and causes unnecessary arguments both before and after (if they haven't already gone away in a huff when shown to be wrong that is)." -
on Dvd. That stuff with libby really pisses me off. The Thing that I love about Emersons perfromance are those bug eyes and those wicked smiles kind of devilish controlling smiles, ben is such a devious little bastard. that is great acting. By the way, does anyone else get the feeling that Juliette will revert to her prejack other days.
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but they also said Nikki and Paulo would become integral characters a couple of weeks before their one episode that has yet to mean anything...
I don't see why there has to be some sort of Groundhog Day-esque time loop for Adam and Eve to be anyone you mentioned. With what the last episode of this season is titled I can see another time JUMP happening, like they've been going through up 'till Locke pushed the donkey wheel. -
The characters are currently in 1977. "The Purge" occurs in 1992. It's quite a bit longer than a year or so and I highly doubt that they character will be there that long. I'm guessing they'll return to 2008 during "The Incident" which we know is pre-1980 (and I'm guessing 1977).
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Doc Jensen article, Namaste Poll results & Videos.
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of Damon and Carlton saying that Adam and Eve in the 4th episode of season 1 proving FROM SEASON 1 ON that time travel happened. How in the world would that happen if it was some minor, unknown character? It has to be WTF-OMG kind of writing, interesting, compelling. This is LOST. That's what it does. Having the skeletons turn out to be Charlottes parents.. boring and pointless. Having it turn out to be Jack and Kate, is killer, and also proves time travel was in play since the 1st season. You need to think longer and harder on this stuff, you're not making much of an effort. I'm trying too hard to explain it and I don't need to be.
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And is he your you?
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But these theories about how it works are way off.
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...do torrents come out faster than the streams on ABC?
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would not be killer, it would be boring. This is because not a day goes by when someone doesn't suggest this theory.
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she'll fuck everyone's plans up again and then deliver some ultimatiums
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I said Ji Yeon and Aaron. Thats much more interesting. Let me ask you Dapper, who would they need to be in order for it not to be boring for you? $10 says you don't have any idea, am I right?
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I wasn't saying Nikki and Paolo were Adam and Eve. Darlton has said, a few weeks before 'Expose', that Nikki and Paolo would become integral characters and fan favorites (obviously, I'm paraphrasing here...). Then...they didn't. I was making the comparison that if that statement has not proved true (at least not yet, but they've only got a season and a half to go) then maybe not all their statements can be taken so closely to heart. Personally, I do believe they've had an over-arching plan from the start. Why are you insulting me and telling me I'm not thinking? I don't understand.
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read this: "What is the meaning or significance of the two skeletons that Jack and Kate found in the cave of season 1?
CUSE: The answer to that question goes to the nature of the timeline of the island. We don't want to say too much about it, but there are a couple Easter eggs embedded in [the Feb. 7 episode], one of which is an anagram that actually sheds some light on the skeletons and hints at a larger mythological mystery that will start to unfold later in the season.
LINDELOF: There were certain things we knew from the very beginning. Independent of ever knowing when the end was going to be, we knew what it was going to be, and we wanted to start setting it up as early as season 1, or else people would think that we were making it up as we were going along. So the skeletons are the living — or, I guess, slowly decomposing — proof of that. When all is said and done, people are going to point to the skeletons and say, ''That is proof that from the very beginning, they always knew that they were going to do this.'' from here: http://tinyurl.com/c38c9e
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above, and then think about time, and looping. In order for those skeletons to be prominent characters for the payoff, time has to have looped at least once, or more. Like what happened in the Matrix "you've rebuilt zion 5 times now, and we've destroyed it every time"
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explain in detail why the mechanisms explaining how the season finale spoiler works, are faulty. I'd like to hear your thoughts
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I'm not arguing that the skeletons are not a result of time travelling Losties. I just said that, at this point, it's almost too expected for them to be Jack and Kate or Kate and Sawyer or any other pair people have thought up and regurgitate at every talkback. Though they still might be, C&L probably shouldn't have given that interview.
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The truth of the matter is: the two corpses can NOT be anyone major or else what they’re really saying has nothing to do with “they had it planned from the very beginning,” though rather: “they had it planned from the very beginning that they were going to freaking piss us off.”It’s a balance of not just good writing, though also good marketing, good strategy, and good sense. The corpses are not Sawyer, Jack or Kate, or else fans will be very pissed. If they’re Aaron or Ji Yeon or whatever, then yeah that’s okay because who really gives a frak. Though they cannot be main characters or else what they’re really saying is that they knew from season one that the people they were deliberately making us learn to love were in fact two corpses since season one, so tee-hee, and ha-ha, and “psych!,” and so forth. It’s sort of a catch 22 when you think about it. On the one hand: nobody really gives two flying farts who the two corpses are, and on the other hand, if they *were* going to make us care, they would have to do something shocking and make the corpses into two characters we care about, and let me tell you: they do NOT want to do that, or else you couldn’t PAY anyone to buy the last season on DVD. The corpses can be Daniel or Charlotte or Aaron or maybe even Juliet, though not Kate or Jack or Sawyer, or else this show will get a major lawsuit from me when it’s done, because I want the years of my life I wasted on it BACK. I’m just saying.
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I think her role is/was similar to Matthew Abbadon's role of getting people where they need to be.
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because they were the one's that found them. and it wasn't on Walkabout. Get it right. It was House of the Rising Sun I think. Maybe not. There was a beehive. Killer writing would have Jack/Kate be Adam/Eve because they're the one's that find them. What if Jack is feeling around Kate's remains? His remains? How fucked is that? It would be insane! He's walking around talking about how these two lived here. Talking about himself. It would be brilliant. If it's anyone else... it's still going to be very cleverly written! It's fucking Lost! Don't you ever fookin' doubt it!
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The season starts with Jack and Kate finding the bodies. Jack and Kate all wide-eyed and naive. What if it ended with Jack and Kate being laid to rest there after all the hardship and shit they went through. Now wiser and having earned that final rest. Wouldn't that give the audience some closure? Instead of just ending on the obligatory fly-by of fucking water, land and animal life? Yeah... Colegegraduit, your bitching is unfounded.
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orchestrating Mass murder, amongst other things through the Others ?.
Hope that theory doesn't come true.
Though am keen to see what is going on in the temple. -
So what you're saying is you won't be happy unless the main characters survive? What if it is Kate and Jack and they do die in the cave in the series finale in the past, will you still be upset?
See as far as I'm concerned I could care less about who lives as long as it makes sense for the story. -
Are Rose and Bernard, Vincent started to get hungry
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"When you plan the very final ending scene of the entire series somewhere around the 4th episode of season 1, contract an actor to be in that scene no matter what, knowing time travel is definitely in play, you aren't "filling in plot holes" from previous seasons as the show goes on. You're revealing other sides to things that couldn't be revealed yet, or weren't revealed yet to keep it mysterious. Thats not a plot hole. What the sickness was as far as Rousseau was concerned was not a plot hole. What happened in Dharma was not a plot hole. They left those things to be discovered first hand in the narrative as the characters experience them. Other things were told in flashback. You could not introduce time travel without Desmond. You could not introduce Desmond without the Hatch. You had to have Ben, Dharma, the Others. Things take time. They've known the larger, global secret for years now. Smokie, the Black Rock, Adam and Eve, the Whispers, Walt, Jacob, what the island is, all that has been known. It won't be revealed until the show is nearly over. Sorry dude, your definition of "plot hole" does not fit at all. Just because you don't like the skewed narrative they're using to tell the story doesn't mean the forgot things and left huge holes. Heroes, on the other hand, IS making it up as they go, is some of the most awful and pathetic writing I've ever seen in a primetime drama. It's insulting. There's no comparison. The LOST writers have a rich tapestry of philosophy, pop culture, religion, and science that they tap into in each and every show. You may not be a deep enough person to notice it, but it's there. The HEROES writers, however, sound like they never graduated from High School. Don't ever compare LOST to Heroes again or I'll hunt you down and you'll end up with much more than a nosebleed, brother."
Dont think I need to add more to that than Bilbo did explaining it to you. Well said. -
that mystry girl in the back ground at the end of the episode last week
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...Rebecca Mader. That would be even more fun.
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Away we go...
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first of all, i love hurley's "what?" reaction right after sawyer told him it was 1977. classic second, one point that i haven't heard mentioned around here is that richard knows there are time-travelling losties infiltrating the dharma initiative based on his convo's with locke and sawyer. how is this influencing his interactions with DI, and how will it affect the incident? finally, what necessitated the truce between the others and the DI? why did the others allow the DI to get and stay on the island in the first place? why not wipe them out earlier?
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that's a hell of a credit right there
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or is it my reception? picture's going to give me a seizure....
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...like one of those scary clowns.
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ripped off limbs, croaking roar, spooky music, rattling chain and all facing off against creepy phil and ripping his smug suspicious fucking face up
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...but as scary as most other clowns, yeah.
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kinda flat and then buzzy when it gets loud
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That's how it always starts. First you get shoved into a prison cage...then you gas 150 people.
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sayid just got the fucking good acid, huh?
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Once.
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and my other brother Darrell.
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It's good to see that cocksucker, William Sanderson, get work. Fuckin' torturous though it may be.
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...Bitch set me up!
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...yep, it's the 70s.
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It's draaaaaaaggginng and quite boring. it's not terrible yet, just kind of treading water.
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no, that was just enough.
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And he has truth serum!
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Just throwing this out there. perhaps they need Richard to stop Sayid from being executed after Sayid's trial, so the Losties make a deal with Richard...and that's purge time baby!!! THE PURGE has to be gone along with to save Sayid, the only way to save him?
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Shiiiiiit. How's Sayid gonna get out of this one? Is Ben gonna save him?
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...do you even watch this show?
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Let me guess, wrong year for the purge, right?
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Let me guess, wrong year for the purge, right?
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I think we have a winner!
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really grew his hair out
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NOT! i mean, i think i'm following the time travel headtrip as well as the rest, but if Said kills Ben, he can't be alive later in the future, yes?
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"...oh why bother? It's been cancelled. We hope you're all happy now."
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He needs to snap out of it.
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...didn't mean to sound like a jackass. But if you'll recall, Ben is all growed up when the Purge occurs.
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and juliet saves. becomes mother figure. all ben has. till something happens to her.
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GERONIMO JACKSON!!!
Yeah your kissin', it feels so right
But you had another man holed up last night -
How will Waaaaaaaalt ever find him there?
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Get some, Linus!!!!!!!
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he scores!
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So much for Faraday's theory.
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OMIGOD, THAT'S THE BEST THING THAT EVER. *dances for joy*
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so now what?
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Setting up their own future. Not like I'm surprising anyone with that.
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we know people sometimes don't stay dead on the island.
That was peopably what got Ben the leadership -
I forgot a whole world I'm so happy.
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this event probably helped to shape him to not trust anybody and into the cold blooded, calculating schemer he is.
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haha I'm getting worse.
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I rarely watch them, but I watched last week's and it ended with Sayid shooting a gun, so you could easily figure out that he shoots Kid Ben. Still shocking to see it happen. I ran away like a bat out of hell from this promo. Anyway, my prediction: Kid Ben dies and Other Island Mojo brings him back to life, all conspiracy minded and supergenius and evil. So, really, Syaid was creating his own nemesis by killing him. Whatever happened, happened.
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No problems man, glad you reminded me.
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Sayid did what should have been done all along. Besides, that wouldn't make Ben hate the Dharma people. It should make him hate everyone else. LOL
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That was one helluva POOM!
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I am guessing, anyway.
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Mar 25, 2009 9:06:35 PM CDT
SNAKE, YOU'VE CREATED A TIME PARADOX
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE
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Which is to say: "Not very." Or "kinda". Or "mildly temporary case of death." But he isn't going to be saved by Dr. Juliet Burke, I really think he's dead. For, like, 15 minutes.
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thanks for the sandwich." *pop *pop
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There needs to be a youtube edit with this.
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tells me you're not ready
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Just saying, I called this a few weeks ago, 815'ers are responsible for everything on the island. Poom. So what do you guys think resurection or Parallel timeline?
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you can be shot quite a few times and still live easily
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In an effort to be more positive: I really liked this episode. I thought it was more exciting than the last couple 'sodes. I really liked the use of the whole flashback plot device, and how they jumped around in time in Sayid's life.
Really, no complaints. The last scene was awesome, albeit there must be some repercussions re: the plot. But I have faith that this will pan out as the show goes on. Cool beans, I had a good time watching this and can't wait till next week. -
almost didnt get that line, cherry. well done
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The difference here is Ben was killed ON the island. Christian and Locke both died OFF the island. I think the distinction there will be important. Has any character died and been subsequently resurrected, both on the island? It's not like we see Zombie Boone or Zombie Take a Shit Guy walking around.
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maybe he was talking about his REBIRTH.
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Snake = Syaid. Ben = Ocelot. http://tinyurl.com/cc9wc9
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Sayid shot the good twin!
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Jin comes to and brings Ben back in the Dharma van. Juliet nurses him to health, saves his life. I'm not clear on why she does this, but lets just go with this. The others hear about the kid that was shot - possibly through Sayid, and see his healing as a miracle that can only be part of the island's plan. This is why they make him the leader later on - just like how they wanted to make Locke the leader.
More importantly, the fact that Juliet heals him as a child is exactly why Ben feels such an attachment to her in 2004 ("You're Mine" from season 3). Also, since my personal, over-arching theory of the whole show involves Ben in a timeloop doing things over and over again, Ben knows that he will be shot as a child after everyone is sent back and also knows that Juliet will nurse him to health - which is why he does not allow her to leave the island in 2004 even though she fails at delivering children.
I think we'll start to see that the losties will be the cause of pretty much every mystery on the show. The reason that Ben seems all-knowing is because he's done this before. Possibly many times. -
Glad someone had the balls to shoot that little bastard, even if he will be alive ten minutes from now.
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now that's funny... good show
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That Ben just didn't 'remember' Sayid when 815 crashed in 2004? Um...I think he might have remembered Sayid.
So...does this create a 'paradox'? My guess is...the reason 2004 Ben doesn't recognize Sayid, is cuz Sayid hadn't travelled back in TIME yet to meet lil evil Ben. He doesn't do that til 2007.
So, the question becomes...Is the Ben we met in 2004 ALIVE because Sayid hadn't gone back in time yet...or because Sayid's wound was not fatal...or he was resurrected ala Locke? -
the ben-child was damn good casting. i know he'd been used before, but he hasn't grown up to look drastically different. the facial characteristics are insane- although it probably helped him look bug-eyed because they directed hin to not blink...lol
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he got better real quick
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inflicted BY Sayid...wasn't fatal?
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JULIET saves little Ben...Um...last I checked there was a new 'workman' who has a side job as a 'spinal surgeon'.
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"He's our you"? Is it just me or does he look like a much older Karl?
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and John said that Ben made him they're leader, what if Ethan thought that was ridiculous because in that timeline, Ben was a kid that died in the 70s and never became leader? Hmm? What if nothing ever happened to Dharma in that timeline?
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That equals Ben is still alive. Could they have projected who Sayid was going to shoot anymore? I love the show but I'm starting to get the feeling that they're spinning their wheels.
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because he was missing innards. The bullet went right through. I tell you, I would have felt better had I seen an entry wound on little Benry Potter's forehead. But I'm hoping he's deader than dead.
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That was one of the funniest lines on the show in forever, A 12 year old Benjamin Linus just brought me a chicken salad sandwitch. Seriously people, it's like I told my wife, he's just shot, not dead. Now he will really grow up to be a hater.
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He never time-travelled before. Why does everyone trust that he knows what he's talking about?
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John Locke please report back to the show asap!
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That was my first thought too!
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like the time-line is circular, and the survivors arent carving out a new future. remember how we see Richard visiting Locke as a child way before we see Locke talking to Richard in the past and suggesting he find him when he is born in two years.
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Locke survived because the bullet did not hit his kidney...which would have killed him if he hadn't coughed it up to his Dad.
Lil Ben got shot in the chest by a 'professional'. Now...unless Ben's gave up his heart, I'd say that was damn near a kill shot.
Will the 'secret spinal surgeon' choose to save him...AGAIN? -
Mar 25, 2009 9:35:20 PM CDT
Jack will probably save him in surgery again
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
And Cherry Valance are you not paying attention or what? The writers have gone to great lengths to establish rules for their time travel, it's complicated enough that they got a little commercial at the end of the show to tell the idiots to go to some website to help them sort it all out. Why would they throw all that out and just forget everything they've established so far? They've said time and time again that they aren't doing the usual time travel bullshit. No parallel timelines, no could have happeneds, etc.
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I think jack would have asked ben about his gunshot scars when he was doing his spinal surgery
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if you're not going to use it?
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Bullets ARE fatal on the island...Just ask Shannon, Ana, Libby, Alex, Ethan, etc. the island 'heals'...it does not 'prevent' fatalities.
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omigod *cries* I can't take it. How can have had the scars if Sayid didn't shoot him yet? *cries*
If I get a time machine today and then I go back to 1984 and give David Lee Roth a boob job, did he have huge tits in the video for "California Girls"? No. Because I only just got the damn machine. Tomorrow when I get back and I ask you "hey remember David Lee Roth's huge tits in that video?" You'll say "yes". But yesterday if I had asked you would have said "no". Get what I'm saying? -
time to start taking your meds again.
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Just not in the tired way you are accustomed to.
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What if Adam & Eve are *actually* Adam & Eve, like, Biblically-speaking? Then last season could go from Apocalypse back to Genesis, all metempsychotic and Finnegans Wake-like. That'd be one heck of a timeloop, doncha think?
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is 12 monkeys time travel, not back to the future time travel
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too bad ben wanted to inflict BENgeance on ben before he is even guilty of anything. kind of fucked up to judge a child by his actions as a man in the future. oh, i understand the whole 'stopping evil while it is still a seed' idea...but you know what would have been better? if sayid could truly pity the young ben, and instead kill his abusive pop. imagine how that would have changed things. of course, if you subscribe to faraday's theory, that never could have happened. also, where is faraday? they mentioned him in passing in the last ep, but said 'he's not here' like he had left, or was dead, or had gone crazy. we know faraday was around to be seen in dharma digging gear...and no one seems to realize when desmond met him at the college, which is our past- faraday was older, scruffier and nutso. the faraday we've been hanging out with, who was on the boat in 'our present' and was in the time traveling episodes was younger.
so did he get off the island in dharma times and then let himself age normally and work at the university? how does that work? having an older you existing being a professor studying time travel sponsored by whitmore while there is a younger you out there at the same time who hasn't gotten on the boat yet to study the island? -
Juliet prepped Ben for surgery...Ben was on his stomach the whole time. He wouldn't have seen the scar if Sayid's bullet did not got all the way through.
That said...Ben may have HAD no scar yet...as Sayid had not yet travelled back in time...But that starts getting into the "BTTF family picture" scenario...where Marty McFly's family begins to disappear from his picture as the timeline gets further screwed up. -
are you guys who insist that Darlton are not getting into the whole changing the past thing going by what they've said or by how the show is playing out? Because as far as I know they said they weren't going to get into a paradox. A paradox and changing things are necessarily the same.
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it's not really a misspelling issue with me, it's that I'm a lousy proofreader
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Episode Title: 5.13 - Some Like it Hoth
Air Date: 15th April 2009
Synopsis
BEN IS TAKEN FROM THE INFIRMARY -- WHICH RAISES SUSPICIONS ABOUT A POSSIBLE SECURITY BREACH, AND MILES IS FORCED TO WORK WITH HURLEY TO DELIVERING AN IMPORTANT PACKAGE TO A TOP DHARMA OFFICIAL
Suspicions about a possible breach intensify after Ben is taken from the infirmary, and a reluctant Miles is forced to work with Hurley when he's asked to deliver an important package to a top Dharma official.
Written by Melinda Hsu Taylor & Greggory Nations
Directed by Jack Bender
Guest List
Francois Chau as Dr. Pierre Chang
Marsha Thomason as Naomi Dorrit
Doug Hutchinson as Horace Goodspeed
Patrick Fischler as Phil
Jon Gries as Roger Linus
Eric Lange as Radzinsky
Leslie Ishii as Lara
Brad William Henke as Bram
Dean Norris as Howard Gray
Tim DeZam as Trevor
Lance Ho as young Miles
Linda Rose Herman as Evelyn -
-oops well, here is the thing. it's probable that a time and space traveling island with magical properties is in itself the basis of many of man's myths and histories. the island shares many things in common with the garden of eden, atlantis, the fountain of youth, mount olympus, etc. so it's likely that anyone on the island when it time skips to extremely ancient times could actually end up being the basis of the human race, and many would leave the island and populate the earth. if you want to believe the tale of adam and eve literally. maybe it's no coincedence that there are just about every race accounted for in characters and extras.
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There's a channel in there called 'room 23'...We can type in real time there. Anyone care to join me?
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i'm getting sleepy
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i cant think of any huge plot holes for the circular timeline theory. 'bullet scars' is kinda nit-picking. the way things are playing out, i dont think they are gonna get into changing the past.
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That's the basic thesis for time travel on this show. The Losties in 77 were always there in 77. When 815 crashed on the island, all the stuff we're seeing right now had already played out. So Sayid shooting li'l Ben was supposed to happen...and as many have said, this is most likely so he can miraculously come back to life and assume leadership of the Others/Hostiles. I'm pretty sure when the Purge happens and Alpert enters New Otherton he's already deferring to Ben as if he is their leader. It makes perfect sense ("...we have a very specific process for selecting our leadership...").
It was a good episode, not spectacular, but definately an improvement from last week--yeah, it was a 'staging' episode getting characters where they needed to be, but it seemed like too much information being told to characters who didn't konw but the audience already had. I got distinct feeling of getting the wheels rolling in this episode, leading us up to the season finale and some crazy ass shit. Oh, just found this...for all y'all who say li'l Ben is somehow dead, I got bad news for ya'....possible SPOILERS?.....................................I never know how much people like to/don't like to look ahead at casting lists/episode titles................................................................Sterling Beaumon, who plays li'l Ben, is listed as a guest star for at least the next two episodes. So he's sure not dead. And if you haven't yet, check out two weeks from now's cast list, "Dead is Dead". It's a ridiculous list; I wish I had that time machine so I could make it two weeks from two hours ago. -
According to Spoilerfix and TV.com, next weeks episode is:
03/14 - Kate goes to extreme measures to save Ben's life when Jack refuses to help. Meanwhile, Kate begins to tell the truth about the lie in order to protect Aaron. Source: ABC
So pretty obvious from this that Ben will survive, maybe explain his fascination with Kate when he kidnapped her.
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Does anyone know the name of the book that Ben gives to Sayid, I didn't see it.
He said "I read it twice" - I'm assuming it has something to do with time travel, or history repeating! -
since people hate it when you chat in there. LOL (I have issues.)
I'm sticking to the "they CAN change things" idea. If it turns out that I'm wrong you can all mock me a second time. But I don't see anything within the show itself that contradicts either idea. It's not over 'til it's over. -
For one, the island does have that magical healing touch. Secondly, from the shot of li'l Ben face down in the preview for next week, there weren't any exit wounds. When Jack operated on...erm...Big Ben (I just groaned out loud at myself...), Ben was face down. All Jack saw was his back.
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pick any character, I'll pick Jack. How if everything had already happened, could Jack have been late 30s/early 40s in the 70s and late 30s/early 40s in 2004 when they crashed? If everything happened just the way it happened. How could they be both kids in the real world and middle-aged on the island in 1977, meaning in two places at once?
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some bug eyed dude saying he was from the future told him to. lol
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he was lying on his side with no shirt
and don't nitpick my picking nits -
Cherry,
I don't feel like writing an encyclopedia for you. So, please go rent "La Jetee" or "12 Monkeys", and then come back. -
if they could sawyer would send himself a letter. dear me, dont get on that plane in 2004- love, me. lol
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your logic on jack is only based on what we've seen. we don't know what is in his or many of the character's future. their futures may lie in the past. that's really about the only way to go, unless they can miraculously get off the 70's island and end up in the exact future they left. but then again, why would they? what do any of them have there anymore? jack is still growing up in america in the 70's while his older self is on the island in the seventies. big deal. it could happen. technically 70's 30 something jack could get off the island and live in america aging normally under an alias while the jack that crashed is growing up and following that path. but i don't think that's where everyone is going to go. i think the future of our players lies in going farther in the past.
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and I think we're all sure he will, the fact that they went there impresses me. I can't stand scenarios like this in other shows/films where a person, confronted with the choice to kill the child version of the scourge of humanity or whatever, decides to let them live and hope they turn out ok by being nice to them and imparting some life-affirming wisdom. Always kill the kid! Even if it doesn't work, at least you tried, so you won't be kicking yourself later after they've done exactly what you remembered them doing, or worse; having them remember that you were there in the past and tried to chage them and then utter the ol' cliche "you should've killed me" as they strangle you with your own intestines or something. Skynet had the right idea.
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What if Ray (his grandpa) in the nursing home (who tried to escape) is actually present day Jack, which is why he convieniently had Christians shoes for Locke to give to Jack to get back to the island.
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You said it. He's in two places at once. Jack was born, let's say 1974, he's 30 when 815 crashes in 2004. He lives through everything we've seen on the show. Then, crazy frozen donkey wheel/magic of the island/Ajira 316/fate, destiny, whatever--he travels through time to 1977. 3-year-old baby Jack is still out in wherever, growing up to take 815 and crash on the island, but 30+ year old Jack is also on the island. Like...when Sawyer saw Kate help Claire deliver Aaron a couple episodes ago? There was a younger Sawyer on the island hiding from the Others. When John Locke saw the beam of light shoot out of the hatch, there was a slightly younger Locke over there pounding on the Hatch. I think that what some people are getting stuck up on is that they think that Jack in 77 has to somehow LATER go on and be in the crash of 815; that's already happened for the '77 Jack whose personal timeline we're following, even though in 77 it hasn't happened in the linear timeline. It's the string Daniel was talking about; we can go forward, and we might could go back. But we can never make a new string.
God, time travel makes my head hurt. But that's why I feel like the writers are making it work; real time travel would be this confusing. Ack, nosebleed! Where's my constant?!? -
I have no problem with that. It's when people say they "were always" there in Dharma in 1977 that I have a problem with it.
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i thought about that too. makes more sense than when i thought christian was actually jack older.
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But they were! Christian showed the picture of Kate, Jack and Hurley in the Dharma Inititive to Sun and Lapidus last episode.
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they cant change things in the future. the reason why is that them being in the "Dharma past" is actually their future. that's why i said that Sawyer cant send himself information about Flight 815. he has to get on the flightin order to be in the past lol.
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I think the book was "A Separate Reality" http://tinyurl.com/aa83zj
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You guys need to take a break from this board and watch 12 Monkeys or something. We've been over this time travel thing a dozen times and you still don't get it.
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At first I thought it was A Wrinkle in Time, but yeah, the book was A Separate Reality, that "he read a couple of times
"
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they could all have been in the bottom of the pit we saw in the future for all we know. but i doubt it. i'm telling you- they are all going to go even further in the past and be part of even more things. but they better be careful how they write that- because from what we've seen, 50's richard alpert doesn't know who anybody is, and by the 70's he seems to only know about locke, having just met sawyer. so he may not be as ancient as we think. i still say he got his immortality in the slave ship days after drinking from the well that connects to the cavern with the donkey wheel's time-power-element in it, assuming the well and the cavern did have water in them at some point.
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the Black Rock. it'd make sense if the Others were the survivors of the slave ship and their descendants
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I think reincarnation is going to be a theme this season as the "Canton-Rainier" anagram van suggests. They will probably introduce Locke back in right when we hear about all this reincarnation stuff. Which means Ben probably knew about the reincarnation when he killed Locke.
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Did anyone else see Claire in the HD episode last week inside the orientation house with Christian? Doc Jensen from EW thinks it is a mistake, but I suspect otherwise.
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get this pickle-i don't think young ben's resurrection is going to be this miraculous thing that makes him become the leader just yet. unless the past CAN be changed, the little mofo still has to grow up a bit and kill his dad in the van. and at that point from what we saw, he's still living with dharma and getting the shit end of the stick in life. sure, he may be a mole for the others by that point (he is) but he's not going to go live with them right after being shot. he'll be living with dharma for quite a few more years until he grows up to the piint when the purge happens.
man, they better wrap this shit up before everyone starts aging so much that the explanations of the past that they shoot don't conflict with how they looked in previous flashbacks -
Would be a cheat and too confusing. They *do* care about keeping the story straight for the audience. Notice how this was a "flashback" (for lack of a better term, even though it was technically flashforwards, but not a flashforward for Syaid) episode, and it didn't muddy up the plot with cutaways to the Ajira Air 2008 plane group. So, I really don't think they'd go with "whatever happened, happened" and "the universe has a way of course correcting itself" and then SUDDENLY turn around and go "muha-ha-ha-ha-HAHAHA!!! Psyche!!" A) It'd be a cheat and B) you'd have to re-explain time-travel which is a crazy enough thing to understand as it is. So, yeah, These events in the 70s always happened before Oceanic 815 crashed. Those are the show's rules. Cripes, Lindeolf and Cruse even say as much in the commentary track for "The Constant" that they try to stick by those rules. It isn't changing. Like they said, whatever happened, happened.
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what if Ray is actually sawyer? what if sawyer is jack's grandfather? eh? eh? ray seems like a rascally older guy. sawyer uses aliases..and guess what...SAWYER is an anagram for WAS REY. okay. so ray/rey is spelled wrong. ha ha i need to go to bed.
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They just haven't gotten there yet.
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Yeah, it's had its ups and downs, and the best season is still the first, but man, I think this current one is building up to be the second best season. Tonight was an awesome episode. My only disappointment is that LOST currently bears little resemblance to the show it seemed to be in Season One. But maybe, that's what all long-running TV shows need to do to stay fresh and exciting: make a turn and change the direction, themes and characters of a show.
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If someone kills Sayid, then that might wipe out everything that has happened in his life before now, since he was out of time. i do feel that his time line is done at this point. Perhaps the whole point of the show is that Faraday - whose word we are all taking as gospel when it comes to the stone skipping across the pond - is actually wrong.
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Exactly. That is why this show is great. You dont know who to trust. Faraday could be wrong. Ben, Widmore, who knows who knows whats going on
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Sayid was one crazy awesome dude on drugs. That's someone I want to hang out with. "I know this, because I...am from the future!" Awesome. I know everyone is busy talking about little ben getting clipped, but I'm sure that'll all be explained. I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed that drug-trip segment.
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How can you direct anyone to one story to explain another story? I'm happy for you that you like that movie, which I have seen by the way. The problem is that none of you know anything for sure. So stop talking down to people like you do. Even if the writers of this show end up agreeing with you guys, it doesn't make it so. When you get a time machine, film your travels, show it to us, and then we'll know for sure that you're right. Until then, stop thinking 12 Monkeys is a fucking bible.
I'm really beginning to hate this fucking show. -
well, he has thoerized that the rules are set and what happens happens, but he's also been trying to prove that wrong himself. logically the past cannot be changed, but it is always man's nature to want to, and try if he gets the chance. it seems like he stressed everything being permanent to everyone else so they would not do any damage to the timeline so that he would be able to try it for himself. he had a mission. he was thinking in his (or charlotte's) best interests...so it was best to keep everyone else in the dark and that things could not be changed so they didn't fuck up his plan.
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like they dosed him with 5 hits of ecstacy. as far as the whole plot goes; if they wrap up the loose ends up with a satisfying conclusion (which will be tough), then lost will turn out to have been one hell of a tv series
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Its all part of the plan...
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is the sort of thing I was thinking of in last week's talkback when I speculated that Christian and Sun were in a netherworld type place. "caught between two worlds" so to speak. But that has nothing to do with time travel so that book couldn't have been in the show. :/ Otherwise I'd have actually read a BOOK that they used in the show, and that can't happen until I go into the future and get some brains and then go back in time to read it which I already had done because I was always there with brains. *bows*
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I'm sure he's the major character they refer to. He really has nowhere else to go, and his action tonight leave little way to go - Jack?Sawyer (but really Jack) may be King, Kate/Juliette may be Queen, and John/Ben may be the Joker...with everyone else taking the side line, anyone goes.
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It doesnt even have to make sense and I still love it... I just enjoy the ride... How many eps are left this season???
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I would say chances are high that Ben did in fact hire the bounty hunter..
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I heard Evangeline Lilly was auditioning for series for next year. Hm..
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faraday went.... good episode tonight...still have no clue whats gonna happen
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1.) Did Ben kill Penelope, which is why he was all bloody prior to leaving?
2.) Where is Desmond, and did he kick Bens ass?
3.) Is Faraday now officially a nut job?
I mean there are a million things out there to still know, but I hope we learn these things soon. -
saw the header of that article but avoided reading it. faraday probably went batshit crazy and ran into the jungle after he told kid charlotte she was going to die
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2 separate chicken references in first couple minutes. That has to be a record.
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... Oh come ON, the Golden Globes fiasco has been forgotten!
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Wonder whether the other kid was the guy from Three Kings on the plane...?
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I have been saying "No Alternate/Parallel Timelines" since they started this time travel shit. I've seen 12 Fuckin Monkeys. Tell me something I don't know, why dontcha?
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If you go back to the past, that means you go back to the events that led to the future that you were in. Which means that the future that you were in was created partly by what you did in the past when you were there. Which means that when you were in the future, your past-you had always been in the past, because future-you put him there. Does that make sense?
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I'm retarded. btw, who are you NoDiggity. That must be a new name, right?
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why is it that ben and sun are in the island's future even though they were on the same plane as everyone else? the whole thing was planned so meticulously to be 'the same' as it was before...ben was not on 815 before, so it would make sense he didn't go to the 70's. and the pilot was only on the island in the 'present' and not on the flight before, so he makes sense to- but SUN was on 815 before. so why is she with them and the other new people from the ajira wreck?
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Once you travel back in time, you are stuck in a loop. Nothing you do can change anything, because it has already happened, you have no real free will, nothing you do matters. It's kind of a HELL, of purposelessness. Which I thought the show was all about, Time Travel as an allegory for Hell. The only way out is to stop trying to control things, stop trying to go back to stop things, stop killing people to try to prevent things, stop building runways for stuff you know is going to happen ... just STOP, give up, trust in fate, God, whatever. The bad guys in this will ultimately be the ones who won't stop trying to control destiny, who keep trying to fix things, change things in the past. The good guys will be the ones who relax, let go, get gone.
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i just realized how stupid that would be. i thought about it- and ray couldn't be sawyer or anyone else we know, because i would assume that jack has seen photographs of ray when he was younger- as any grandchild does of thier grandparent) and when jack gets older would realize- hey sawyer, you look like my grandpa ray when we was younger. so unless jack just knows nothing about his grandfather, i have to retract my wild theory.
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I think you're onto something. Flann O'Brien's 'The Third Policeman' novel, which came under some scrutiny back in Season 2, works around the same idea. Its original title was something like "Hell Goes Round and Round"...
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although this from lostpedia is interesting about Ray:
In the casting call, Ray was named "Hal", and described as "70s, Caucasian. Successful, handsome and charming rogue with a twinkle in his eye. A guy who can still fight the establishment and win."
* Why is he always trying to escape his retirement home?
* Where does he think he will escape to that no one will find him? -
I really didn't think they'd go there. Wow.
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Young Ben lives, people.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Scrt8qh4_KI/AAAAAAAAuFk/CI0OJk3Tn_g/s1600-h/ben.jpg
I actually felt bad for the kid. Just goes to show how innocent people really are when we're children.
It's only once they start growing up that they turn to shit. On that note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g84nC5UXbXo -
i'm assuming you are on the west coast or in hawaii? lol.
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My mother has a theory and she's good...Ben and Sun can't go back to the 77 Dharma because they are already there. Ben obviously, but my mother thinks that Sun is Candleman's baby, and not Miles, as some have suspected. Miles is in the past, so it's interesting at least. No thoughts on Locke though.
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And it's mainly because of the Wiki summary of the plot for "Third Policeman". I know the writers have claimed that it's not about Hell or Purgatory, and they aren't dead, but it still can be an Allegory for that. Because the end of Season 2 and beginning of 3, with the Button Pushing arc, was based on that Third Policeman idea of Hell. And I would guess that the larger arc they developed for the series would be something like that, only substituting Time Travel To Change The Past/Keep the Past From Being Changed for the button pushing of the first 2+ seasons.
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are you spymunk?
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that makes a lot of sense, actually. it accounts for ben, hints that sun is candleman's kid and was smuggled off before the purge into safe hands... the only one it doesn't answer is locke, so maybe he is already on the island in the 70's somehow, or maybe the time jump just brought him to life and that's it. Ben doesn't seem surprised or bothered that he is on the island in the 'future' again...so i'm just wondering, what does he plan on doing on the island in our 'present'? sun hopes to find jin, but she doesn't know he's back in time.
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sPinach. The one who told everyone not to chat (bleah).
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....but record the east coast feed on the Tivo. Just saw the end.
Only thing that sucks... if he SURVIVES, it might make him even more resentful. Maybe it's what pushed him over the edge.
Either way, I'm still shocked that the makers can get away with that on network TV. Wow. Just brutal. -
That IS a good theory. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if it turned out true.
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No kidding, right? The flashbacks tonight did two things: jack and shit. Um, Sayeed getting drunkenly conned by a bounty hunter after so recently being in a Spy vs. Spy love affiar...it doesn't work for me. Sayeed, under any condition, is sharper than that and it was cheap and unneeded writing. The flashback was dull.
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No kidding, right? The flashbacks tonight did two things: jack and shit. Um, Sayeed getting drunkenly conned by a bounty hunter after so recently being in a Spy vs. Spy love affiar...it doesn't work for me. Sayeed, under any condition, is sharper than that and it was cheap and unneeded writing. The flashback was dull.
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Got to say - the ending tonight threw me for a loop.
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he knew that he had to get shot as a kid by a guy named sayid. ben is very methodically trying to keep his timeline unaltered for whatever reason. but the real question is, why? who is trying to undo it- esp. if it can't be changed? if everything happens as it will, why would it take so much effort to make sure your past goes according to plan?
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I'm with you on the fact that there are a lot of possible explanations on the time travel stuff and the past/future stuff could be very screwed up considering that everone is from 2004 and there's all this stuff in the 70's. That being said, my general thought is that when a character takes the time to explain that you cannot affect the past because it is set, usually that's the theory to go with for a show/movie. So if everyone has gone back to 1970, it's because it has already happened and has to happen again. Wait...BSG ripoff? All this has happened before and all this will happen again? DAMN YOU RON D MOORE!
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that makes sense then. *writes that down*
More things that don't make sense from the SPOILERS... it says Kate decides whether Ben lives or dies. If that was the case and Kate was Kate, then the answer is Ben dies. She kills everyone. That's Kate. If she doesn't and decides that he should live, then again, the characters are no longer themselves. And the writers used the missing 3 years to make these people into whoever they want whether it's consistent with the last 4 seasons or not. 'Cause they can just chalk it up to people changing over time. So they can drop everything that happened before. That's what's really getting to me. And it's been three episodes of this now. So I guess it's permanent. -
I don't think you can get more timeline altering than that!
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Thanks alot, now I have no idea what to expect. Thanks a lot, Sayid Jarrah. Yrah Im drunk, so what, you ewanna fight about it??
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Yet somehow, I'm totally cool with that.
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I don't think Kate would kill Ben. She just went through a hell of a lot raising Aaron is Ben is only a teenager. To her, she'd let him live, despite her future problems with him, if only because he would still be viewed as innocent. He's just a kid.
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Yeah Im drunk, but still.... For a long time, I thought I knew the direction in which LOST was going. After Said killed young Ben, now I have NO F"UCKIN?G IDEA.
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I can see the point of making the characters into whatever the writers think would be convenient and skipping over the 100 days of island fun. However, I think the writers are for the most part sticking to what we know. Sawyer wanted to play house with Kate. Juliet would do instead. Sayid has always been a killer. Jack just hasnt had a chance to be the hero yet. I'm sure that will be coming.
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was going to try to reform Little Ben.
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If you watch Lost Untangled, it shows YOUNG BEN lying in a hospital bed of sorts with tubes. They practically GAVE away the fact that Ben survives. Rule of TV shootings: if they don't show them ACTUALLY taking their last breath, or uttering dramatic last words, they're not dead.
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When EB messed up, saying he might have given Sayid too much of the truth drug, I was almost expecting Swearengen to come out of nowhere and slap him.
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Sayid kills little Ben, Ben can't help the others during the purge hence the barracks looks the way they do when Sun and Lawnmower man are kicking it with Old Doc Shepard.
One or more of you out there were giving me grief for my theory.
Did you like the episode. -
If you watch Lost Untangled, it clearly shows Little Ben under medical care. He ain't dead. Whatever happened, happened.I'm from the future.
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http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/
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Ben aint dead. Sayid can't kill him to 'thwart' his future existence. He's ALIVE in '92 to committ the PURGE...He's ALIVE in 2004 when 815 crashes...He's ALIVE in 2007 when he crashes on 316.
Whatever happened...happened.
Sayid tried to mess up the future...but obviously...the future course corrected.
BTW...I hear there a pretty decent surgeon on the island now...I think Ben has been a patient of his before. I hear this new guy likes to 'fix' things. -
Probably the worst this season. Maybe BSG's finale spoiled me. But really I didn't like this one.
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...was teach little Ben how to be a heartless motherfucker.
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He has to grow up to be Big Ben and wins two Superbowls.
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Just that I thought that he might try to reform little Ben. Looks like trying to change things (killing him) made Sayid a self fulfilling Prophesy
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...That means all of this What Happens Happens, is something a character said in the show.
That's it. Faraday will be proven wrong.
Faraday will be proven wrong, mark my work Brody.
Desmond getting hit with a paddle in the pub=Faraday is wrong.
Do you just not remember that ep? -
Not everyone has to get the show as much as I expect them to in order to enjoy it. I shouldn't single out people every time they say something I find dumb.
But... on the other hand. Ray is Sawyer? Oh man. yikes.
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Actually Sawyer said that the Juilet a few episodes ago when talking about the infirtility while trying to convince her that it hadn't happened yet and to help Amy deliver her baby.
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But I think something special has to happen, probably what will go down at the season or series finale. The idea of a future you can or cannot change fits in with a theme of free will or destiny that I think is important to the series.
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reading link on something bigger than this season's death is not working in room23
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It is easy to guess why Lupidas, Ben, and even Locke's corpse stayed in the present day and all of the 815ers vanished into the 70's... But has anyone any idea why Sun did not go with her peers into the past? Just a device to keep Jin and Sun apart for dramatic tension, or is there a better theory that I may have missed in previous talkbacks, or other Lost fansites?
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The thing that's bugging me is Kate's baby. I thought the smart money was on it being Ethan but now that's out the window. Boone, perhaps? I'm not sure if they ever explained his parental heritage. It has to be someone we've met, right? Desmond? Maybe the fact that he was born out of time on the island is what makes him immune to the string theory.
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Mar 26, 2009 1:26:53 AM CDT
The whole Dharma Initiative is about breaking the rule
by dapper swindler
The Numbers determine when the world will end in the future. The Dharma Initiative was created to find a way to change any of the values of those numbers to let the world live. So the entire point of the Dharma Initiative was to break Faraday's rule. They failed though, of course. The Dharma Initiative was about changing your fate. The whole show is about being in control of your fate. At the end, they will find a way to change the time stream, it will involve Desmond.
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3 was never and important number before, but now it's always popping up. They may have changed the Valenzetti Equation.
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With the Swan Station, or something related to the Swan Station.
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Just kidding, actually I hate HTML. In order to get the buttons to hide spoilers I have to use HTML and half the time I mess it up. Thanks for pointing it out.
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This may be complicated...but everyone try and read closely and follow this logic...
Everyone assumes that if a change is made in the past...it will ripple into the future. Not true in Lost...never has been. "Lost" travel is LINEAR. Events in the "past" haven't happened yet. Sayid just shot Ben...but that happened AFTER the second plane crash...in a LINEAR way.
For instance, Russo sees Jinn for the first time at the 819 beach camp. She doesn't recognize him...EVEN THOUGH he may have been the last human being she saw before Sayid...who found her hideout.
Please stay with me. Even though she saw Jinn in the past...it didn't happen until AFTER she already knew him...in a LINEAR sense. Point A is Russo landing on the island. Point B is Jinn landing on the island. Point C is Russo meeting Jinn at camp. Point D is Jinn traveling back to point A. In "Lost" time travel...regardless of what happens at point D (confrontation with Russo), it has NO affect on points A, B or C...because D has NOT HAPPENED YET!! It is in the future. D is at a STATIONARY point on the timeline. Russo doesn't recognize Jinn at C...because he hasn't traveled back yet...and when he does...it has no effect on Russo's future/past...because she already meets him at point C.
We have seen that people's brains and thoughts can be is two places at once. Point D Russo's brain is still connected through the island's mental/spatial ethernet to point C Russo's brain. We have seen this through what happened to Charlotte.
The point is actually more simple than it seems. Events in point D cannot alter A,B or C. If they could, Russo would have promptly shot Jinn the first second she saw him...believing he was "infected" like her entire group...who she slaughtered.
People try and play this off as an "oversight" by the writers. B.S. They know exactly what they are doing...which is why the following is coming:
Point A: Hurley come to the island.
Point B: Hurley sees his numbers on the hatch and tries to stop the explosion.
Point C: Hurley goes to the 70s.
Point D: Hurley somehow tries to stop the death of Libby...and gets Dharma to use the numbers inside and outside the hatch...so that point B Hurley stops the hatch from ever being opened. Once again proving that ALL "ISLAND" time is LINEAR...and cannot be changed.
If Locke and the 819s didn't blow the hatch open with Black Rock dynamite...they would have built a fire so hot around the hatch, that it would have melted or expanded the internal air (like a bullet)and blown the door...or they would have found the other door...or Jinn would have made acid out of sea urchin spines, boar feces and the last roll of antacids....the point is...it had to happen in the LINEAR way time works on Lost.
Of course this wasn't just for Cherry...but I'd love for someone to prove my theories %$#*@ wrong.
D CANNOT EFFECT A...NOT EVER!!
Kes out, bitches! -
The members of Geronimo Jackson could end up being the heads of the Illuminati at the heart of all this. Just a thought...
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Do you really think that the 2004 (now 2007) Ben, never had any memory of Sayid or the other 815ers? That he didn't know that 815 was going to crash, exactly who was on it, and that one day some of them would have to travel back to his childhood and that one of them would have to shoot him?
Rousseau might not have remembered Jin because she's been living by herself on an island for 16 years hearing voices and seeing other strange things. Plus, I don't think she had much contact with 2004 Jinn anyway (I could be wrong, I don't remember).
You got the part right about point D not being able to affect point A, but point D always happened. To some characters, point D would come first, to some it would come last, but it always happened just the way it did. -
YES....Desmond changed the future by affecting the past. But...He's the odd man out...that's why Faraday used him to contact his mommy.
Desmond does not 'time' travel he 'consciousness' travels...two separate and distinct things. And only Desmond has the ability to do it. All thanks to him being so close to the magnetic pulse when he turned the fail safe key.
Oh...and yes...I think his little 'trick' will be used again at a crucial juncture next season.
JabbaMutt...Yes...that's EXACTLY how time travel works on LOST. (Except when it pertains to Desmond). If you guys were too lazy to read Jabba's post a couple clicks back...It's worth it to go back and read it. The fact is...Ben was still alive in 92 (at the Purge)...and 04 (when 815 crashed)...and 07 (when 316 crashed)...Cuz Sayid didn't go back to 1977 and shoot lil Ben til AFTER all that shit happened...in 2007.
I hope that makes sense. Jabba's explanation was a lil more clear. But...until you understand the rules of LOST time travel...these next few episodes are going to be 'the suck' for you. -
Mar 26, 2009 2:45:52 AM CDT
I'm always reminded: Widmore "changed the rules" somehow...
by colegegraduit
Here’s one line that always gets me: when Ben’s “daughter” was shot, Ben seemed certifiably shocked it happened; probably the only shocked look he’s ever had on this series. Then he says repeatedly how Charles Widmore “changed the rules.” So…what if that’s the whole “war” that’s supposedly brewing here? What if Widmore wants to change the rules, or more specifically, time? Ben on the other hand wants time unaltered. He knows, for example, what the future holds for everyone…including Widmore. Widmore then says “So you’ve come to kill me?” then Ben says, “You know I can’t do that.” It makes sense when you think about it. Ben wants time as it was, is and will be; Charles wants to frak it up. That would explain how Widmore “changed the rules,” how Ben “couldn’t” kill him (I mean, hey; he sure killed Locke, right?), and how everything that happens…happens. Much like Terminator 3’s theories of time: you can change time somewhat, though you’re just going to alter time a little…though not enough. Think about this one: Dharma seemed so blaze about their Dharma stations, except for the Swan, which was not only underground though protected by airlock-style hatches. Their radio station is a simple cabin; even their “arrow” station that allegedly researches battle strategies was a simple above-ground station, easily entered by the Tailies. Yet the Swan? Underground…and behind thick hatches that can only be opened by dynamite! Why would they do this? One likely theory: they did this because they got all paranoid when a “hostile” entered their camp and as far as they know set a house and van on fire. So they suddenly place their next Dharma station under lock and key. Time can be altered…though not really. One other thought: the two skeletons in the cave? I’m sure now that it’s Rose and Bernard. They were jumping in time along with the others, right? So they jump “permanently” into the 1970’s, look for the same old cave, and live the rest of their lives together. It perfectly ends their story arc and would otherwise leave a huge plot hole as to where these two lovebirds have been hiding.
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Just to clarify: yes I know Ben didn't really kill Locke though my point is: he could've at least shot Widmore in the face for what he'd done to his daughter, right? Yet "he can't do that." Why not? It could be because he knows the future, and the future would be torn apart if he did. Just one idea.
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...maybe Ben "knew" that Alex was supposed to be on the Island in early Dharma days. But Widmore/Keamy fucked that up so Ben's paranoid about what Widmore can and can't do.
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Enjoy the END again..
(Jack sits alone on the beach staring out into the ocean. He's lost in his own
thoughts.)
(Kate walks up and sits down next to him. He glances at her and turns back to
the ocean.)
KATE: I want to tell you what I did. Why he was after me.
(He shakes his head.)
JACK: I don't want to know. It doesn't matter, Kate, who we were, what we did before this -- before the crash. It doesn't really --.
(He looks at the ocean.)
JACK: Three days ago, we all died. We should all be able to start over.
(Kate looks at him.)
KATE: Okay.
JACK: Okay?
CUE SONG:
I got troubles oh, but not today
Cause they're gonna wash away
They're gonna wash away
And I have sins Lord, but not today
Cause they're gonna wash away
They're gonna wash away
And I had friends oh, but not today
Cause they're done washed away
They're done washed away
And oh, I've been cryin'
And oh, I've been cryin'
And oh, no more cryin'
No, no more cryin' here
We get along Lord, but not today
Cause we gonna wash away
We gonna wash away
And I got troubles oh, but not today..
Cause they gonna wash away
This old heart gonna take them away..
"Two sides. One is light, one is dark."
..Brilliant..Oh, my sweet Lord..Brilliant. -
Good breakdown.LOST's way of doing time travel, to me, is the first time it's actually made sense on television. Every other time, it's simply paradox, random whatever, completely illogical (especially after years of Star Trek... *shudders*). LOST seem to be getting it right. Hey, tomorrow I'm going to go to the LOST Writer's Room at WGA-w Theater, entire LOST staff's going to be there... any questions I should throw their way if I get selected? :)
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One frakkin pinkie slip posts..godsdamn. Hal..maybe the kids are right. Time to join the 21st century ya know..pay a genius dude or dudette...Logan running from Juarez minimum wage to drag your site into the 21st century..hmmm.. just sayin..and just sayin you STILL owe me a godsdamn t-shirt. You big bunch of fatty fruit-cup.
AND..JJ Darleton Lindlecuse gets an ..welll...I'm not tellin you know...
Where is my godsdamn T-shirt?! -
You're gloating and prancing like a peacock about something. Are you saying the SERIES is going to end with 1.3 Tabula Rasa, that the events at the end of that episode happen AFTER everything we are seeing now?If so, you're a moron. If not, please clarify, and I'll reserve judgment on how moronic you are until I read whatever moron explanation you give.Thank you.
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...I just started reading these comments and you've got about 50 of them out of the first 75. Heavily redundant and moderately annoying. Or Vice Versa. And yes, that "spoiler" makes abso-fucking-lutely no sense in terms of timeloops, where the series will go, or anything. Ben "purges" the Dharma initiative because of the 06ers??? LMAO. The 06ers learn all of the islands secrets then travel back in time again to start up "the Others"? LMAO (p.s. to whoever said something about the "delicious irony" in that...know how I know you're gay? You said "delicious.")Keep on drinking the kool aid.
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So...you must be..err..uh..the Pot?
I do dig your use of moron..moronic....that is so well extrapolated, you obviously young silly tool..but really now..how awesome! You have awesome written well all over ya
Ah, the flaky jake stories I could tell ya...if you only knew..anything..if you only had accomplished some such anything in this about that in your sad young life..alas..ya haven't..have ya? yeah..well, in the immortal words of James T Kirk in the underappreciated Star Trek IV..a double dumb ass on you! Soooo...and by the by snarky pop..what do a peacock sound like in the Morning? In the afternoon?..tell me child..do ya know? Nope, prancer, you do not..do you? hmmm. typical.
Look, Executor, don't be doofie just cause you can't feature this about that...just..well..roll with it. Yeah?
You are forgiven for being a Jobin...Gods..and what a Jobin you are..Ahh..that will do pig..that will do..
C'MON! MAN! it is a TV show you snow monkey!
Godsdamn..your moronity knows no bounds! Jeeeebus!...snicker. -
Forgive me..Master big brain..I forgot or I rather I meant to type..and of course this is, obviously, because, as you typed, I am a moh-ron (sidebar: you ignorant racist homophobic hick)..I forgot to mention I am in bow down worship of your parroting of the funny notions from '40 yr old virgin'...know how I know..WOW! You are cutting edge mi amiga! Rock oot with your obviously under-average cock out and tell us all what for!
heh, Ms Landingham..who da man? Executor da man, Josh Lymanishie..is da man...cause your quick fire is all kinds of dogs playin poker awesome and funny...
sigh...I weep for the dooooshies..cause if you are the king of the doooshies..what will become of the dooshies. douche. heee. This. -
I'd like to take this time to welcome you to your first day watching Television. As you get more experience with the medium, you'll learn that television characters frequently appear to be killed just prior to the end of an episode, or a commercial cut-out. When the story continues, we then find out that they weren't really killed, the scene was just dramatically framed to lead you to this false, but exciting conclusion. Again, WELCOME TO TELEVISION.
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bravo for a major network to show a kid getting shot.
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But BEN IS NOT DEAD. This has already happened in his past. See my audio review for more. http://tinyurl.com/cyflqb
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Ya know, I am moron..but that was some seriously good....good.
Television... Outstanding.
Marshall Dillon and Festus..hmmm...babe..you just sent it over the left field wall at Fenway...well done. Well done. -
... but where was his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl?
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The possibility of paradox (destroying our own existence) omits any possibility of time travel. If it were possible, time travellers would have already been written into our past, and possibly have done something to cause said paradox. The universe isn't so poorly designed. That being said, in the context of the show, the "whatever happened, happened" quote is absolutely true. Ben is either as resurrect, or survived the gunshot. There is no other alternative, because he is alive in the future. If he dies as a child, you have a paradox. If Ben dies, then none of the major events occur, the Six never return, and Sayid doesn't hot young Ben.... you get the idea.
So, next week (if they continue the Sayid/Ben story from last night, we will see 1 of 2 things, resurrection, or healing.
Anything else would be a Star Trek time travel cheat. -
when I typed hot young Ben,
I meant shoot young Ben. -
Ben has to be alive to turn the wheel so that they can go back in time.
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tonight. Last night's broadcast (I get over the air) was messed up for the first 20 minutes. The picture was "skipping" and it was making me nauseous. Anyone else have that same technical issue?
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Mar 26, 2009 8:29:33 AM CDT
Best part was drugged Sayid on the tree laughing hysterically
by turketron
YOU USED JUST ENOUGH!!!! BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
FISSION MAILED -
Probably the weakest thus far but maybe some of this stuff will play out down the road - obviously Ben getting shot is the prime candidate for that. I hope it factors into the story as opposed to just being a shock moment that is swept under the carpet. One thing's for sure: Ben would HAVE to remember Sayid now. Maybe it's cause of how BSG ended up but Lost is making me a little nervous ...
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Don't watch their piece of shit Lost Untangled bullshit this week unless you want a massive spoiler.
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More or less return to the old flashback format, except they didn't stay in the same timeframe during the flashbacks. Loved doped up Sayid. Seeing EB Farnham come out when you were expecting the badest MF ever on LOST was exteremly cool. And a WTF ending.
Theorize about time travel, paradoxes or whatever, it was just great TV. -
I just caught up on the entire series, and I'm getting more spoilers for future eps in this one talkback. Crap. I guess I'm out.
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Apparently everyone in here knows about the spoiler already.
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I'm tired of hearing that closed minded view of time travel...nothing has to happen the same way for them to get there...they are in that time, anything done there changes the timeline...its like all the people that think in terninator that if connor don't send kyle back that he will never b born...once a change is made its made, ands the timeline moves from that point forward...hence, kyle doesn't hav to go back and ben might b dead.....there will b no paradox...there are many theories on time travel and yours is only one of them.....lost rocks !!
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T'nac gnikcuf tiaw rof eht gnikoms toh Adnires Naws sa Annataz...
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What did Sayid mean by that? Did he mean that he thought he was there to kill Ben or does he have some other mission?
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And not for one minute did I think wow Ben is dead how does that work, but Sayid did it,he shot a kid. Cause for him the end justifies the means, in the same way Sawyer didn't want his happy life to be messed up. Sayid gave into his nature and it was the playing out of that ethical question about killing Hitler as a kid before he had done anything wrong.
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She is seriously screwed up and Sawyer and Jack are caught in the chase, Sawyer in particular looks like he will forget about the great thing he has with Juliet and pursue the unattainable.
I know there is a lot of Kate love out there, but she reminds me of the girls I use to date in my early twenties, basically not knowing what they want and very insecure, and yeah I stupidly fell for them everytime, the excitement of the chase. The curse of having a dick. -
So does anybody think that she was really hired by Avalino's family? Seems like bullshit to me.
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Team saymond needs to be reunited
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If someone could go back in time and kill their own ancester before being born, how could they be born to go back and kill their own ancester? Paradox. It's not narrow mindedness, its logic. In the context of Sci-Fi, it makes for a good story vehicle, but if you try and apply the same thinking to the real world, it just doesn't work. But the discussion was, in the context of the Lost universe rules of time travel, "whatever happened, happened" Ben dying as a child is not compatible. Thus, he either recovers, or is resurrected.
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Great post, I read it after I posted mine....good luck explaining that to these closed minded turds....while I believe that some actions the losties took in the 70s affected their island in 2004...I still think any drastic changes can hav drastic consequences....when faraday said the past can't b changed, it was a warning, not a concrete fact. Its why sawyer is trying to just fit in and go undr the radar, and isn't warning dharma about what will happen in the future...even if ben does live, him gettin shot by sayid never happened in the original timeline...ur points are right on the money, but closed minded nerds who go by the "I know how time travel works, so you're wrong" theory will never get it ore open up their mind enough to even contemplate the possibility....
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Wow, great episode. And, seriously, drugged out Sayid was hilarious. And that hut that William Sanderson was living in... LOL! more mushrooms, please. i think he read Ben's book, too. http://tinyurl.com/ce4vbe
okay, and i think Sayid, instead of trying to kill Ben, should have councelled him on the error of wearing that ridiculous hat in the future. -
I know you both have very different opinions on the BSG final, I am mixed on that one.
Waqman being a fan of Lost would be suprised if you thought the flashbacks were done well in BSG. This episode of Lost wasn't perfect but the flashbacks worked well with the "current" story and theme -
this is why i have avoided the early part of the TB. Damn you BilboFett. grr
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LOST Costume Designer fired over Michael Emerson wardrobe malfunction!! silly silly hat. sheesh. what were they thinking....
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Tovarish, Ontological paradoxes have been running to and fro for some time now..as pointed out several dozen talk backs ago.
However, and yes...BUT...all of this, and everyone's assumption of..some such Einstein-ian temporal variability, is an application of normative notions of time-travel. And so..says who?
General Relativity allows closed timelike curves..and though Novikov self-consistency conjecture would prevent a time-traveler from stopping the holocaust in WW 2, it would allow said traveler to yoke out certain folks from certain death..or some such sorta thing...
My friends (said John McCain)..don't feature time as Danny Faraday said...a street, there and back, going up and going down, but never a new street driven...
Time is a raging glacial river flowing from a pristine mountain...consciousness (and let us confine this to awake and aware and fore go all notion of the mind actually residing in the quantum or smaller) So, your consciousness is a kayak shooting down the rapid river flow..
It is possible for all things that you might imagine to occur; paddling along..example, over the falls and into a whirlpool, the voyager (you) spins right round round right round like a record baby right round round round round..but, eventually, the voyager either (and must) paddle out of the whirlpool or drown (Charlotte's bloody nose(trademark))..
So, conjure this, you are on the river, riding the current to it's and your inevitable destination..the wide open sea..for whatever larger reason, god, fate, math, you can not get out of the kayak, you can only watch the world go by (Quickserv Johny)..so how would you, how could you affect the mighty flow of the river to cause a new effect? You can not..imagine time travel as manifesting (imagining) yourself down shore, watching yourself coming, watching yourself passing, watching yourself going on, down the river of time ...Any of your actions would be like throwing rocks in the river before ya...
Would you produce much change in the river throwing rocks in it? Slight perturbations..course change? Unlikely. Highly probabilistically unlikely to change the course of the river and your kayak..
However, again..now imagine you had the ability throw said rock AT a boulder..a 100 ton boulder hanging over the river..and it would fall right in the middle of the river..might this not divert YOUR witnessed raging rapid river journey and affect the course..we are typing of some such massive mass and or energy to cause said effect..
In summation...POOF. You are confined to the kayak paddling down a raging river. Ahead, you can estimate yourself going down the river. You try to change the course of the journey by throwing a rock in the river. All that occurs is a tiny splash, and the slightest almost unnoticeable change in course that will not affect your final destination..
Alternative.. POOF. You are paddling down the raging river. You imagine yourself coming down the river. You try to change the course of the journey not by throwing a rock into the river, but rather by throwing the rock at a boulder hanging tenuously on a cliff above..BOOM..Avalanche..Time quake..you succeed.
Several hundred tons of mass fall into the river altering the flow and sending you on a different course. Imagine the river deltas and turns and reservoirs, and then waterfalls back into the river upstream from where you threw the rock..You won't see yourself throw the rock..you are simply (yeah, how would that happen) riding down the river again..just a bit different. In the end you still can't get out of the kayak, you still can't beach, you still will wind up in the great endless ocean...but you might change the experience for anyone riding with you
But, heh, what a fuckin ride..yeah. Faraday! -
Mar 26, 2009 9:23:54 AM CDT
Sayid shooting ben on reflection wasn't very professional
by miyamoto_musashi
No follow up shot to the head, I guess that while his nature is a killer, he was still at least partially conflicted in shooting a kid, hence one shot and getting out of there as soon as possible
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wow, whatever you are on, need to get some, are you at college?
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Everyone else besides the six... Where are they? 1970's??
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Here's what happens next week... we see a short replay of the Sayid shooting Ben scene.. then the wind picks up, lightening strikes and Ben suddenly gets up to his feet as hes hit by a bolt of lightening. Cue big flashes of light and Ben screaming "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!!" because he's The Highlander bitch!!!! The final season consists of Ben and Co. running around chopping of the heads of Fox's execs. for ruining the Wolverine franchise and for retribution for their b.s. involving The Watchmen.. ok so thats the only way the show can get any weirder.
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Bounty hunters ..no matter where..can't badge there way through airport security...especially LAX.
just sayin...I always new her badge wasn't Marshal..I was thinking FSB (Federalnaya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti Rossiyskoy Federaciyi) even before Sayid went Red Dawn in Red Square..funny (there is no gate there) based on the little stick out thingy on the badge..but, accordingly, and based on her drifting accent..she would seem Italian..and/or EU-ish..
I would still unzip her boots. -
That's what I want to know.
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I mean..near I reckon it has been two some years since I made you look stupid and crawl away and cry..but heh..if you want to go again..trot out your math, num nut, I'll carve you up like a thanksgiving goose. AGAIN...child
five rings my balls...babe. But, heh, lub ya pretentious doooosh. -
but thanks for the laugh
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Jin picks up Ben. Takes him back. We get an odd repeat of the Michael stuff from late S2 when everyone wonders who let the 'Hostile' escape, while trying to cure Ben. Ben can't tell them the truth because, if he does, they'll banish him and/or Big Daddy Linus will slap the taste outta his mouth.
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Oldham Farnum walks into Al's office, hat in hand, "Ah do sincerely apologize Mr Swearengen for misappropriating the dosage thus invalidating our sole opportune moment at ascertaining the prisoner's true previous whearabouts and such." To which Al simply sneers and opens his drawer. "You're not going to throw me over the balcony now are you Al?"
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you must not remember the funny...
No one remebers the funny..Samurai jack ass...hello...remember? ok. you are gonna now spend 5 hours looking back through TB's to find the joke from years ago...what? did you ride your scooter off a curb? Los Nihon Dōro Kōdan ain't going to be pleased. Notice the use of pleased not happy...you pretentious dooosh.
C'MON MAN! remember! -
I oughta lynch you where you stand, ya cocksucking fuck.
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For all his spoiler posts?
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you left out 7 or 16 instances of profanity..
Al: "Here's my counteroffer to your counteroffer..go fuck yourself!" -
Trixie gets shot by Sun, Juliet's sister is Calamity Jane...it's a real shame that show didn't conclude properly, and have some reverse-crossover. Would have LOVED to see Sawyer cross paths with Bullock or Swearengen. Heck, just to hear him say cocksucker would have been hilarious.
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How goes, boss?
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I tried to keep it PG. Besides, EB tended to be less profane than everyone else, and was just as worthy. The contradiction in his character was that he was overly polite and cautious in his language, but physically he was always a greasy slob.
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Say Deadwood was on The Island, have all our characters go back to the 1800s. Would be worth it just for: SAWYER: Son of a bitch... JANE: Who you calling bitch, cocksucker?
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I meant 'just as wordy' not 'just as worthy'.
I'm not worthy. -
I will grant that mini-Ben is most likely alive, but Sayid just shot him without thinking of the implications. And since there are too many implications to consider, Sayid essentially attempted to throw them into some random future merely to assuage his own guilt over working with Ben. That's messed up.
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Instead of 'others' or 'hostiles'...they'd just be Hoopleheads!aaaand another thing, would Juliet THINK that Calamity Jane was her sister? Then get all shocked and speechless when Jane cusses her out? Then as Juliet stood there, jaw hanging open in disgust, Al would simply give the whole room a look and say "Get to fuckin."
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Sayid, at heart, is a killer. A tortured soul too, looking for redemption. In shooting little Ben, Sayid wasn't thinking of paradoxes or the scientific implications of changing the past. He is best when he shoots without thinking, or killing in a robotic, machine like fashion.
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Sayid shot Ben once. He shot everyone else numerous times. Ergo - Sayid is going to let fate decide if Ben lives.
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Does this mean that his spoilers were real? Because, if so there goes the rest of the season for me.
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Haven't seen you around in awhile. I'm nursing a hangover/still drunk phase right now, catching up on Talkbacks- you?
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I avoid that shit like the plague. Chances are, his spoilers werent real and the Powers That Be banned him anyway for being a douche.
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Oh well, it put necessary plot-points in motion, so I can't really complain about one flat, emotionless episode.
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in Sayid's samich from Ben
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I'm late to this board so dunno if we're still talking about time travel. That's an interesting explanation, and I'll admit that it's made me rethink a few things. But.
I have a problem with you saying that time travel in Lost is "LINEAR". Linear from whose point of view--I mean, it's subjective, isn't it? In your example with Jin and Rousseau, seems like it's linear from Jin's perspective (and the audience as well, since we are experiencing things through Jin's eyes), and not at all linear from Rousseau's point of view. So from your explanation, it seems that if you travel through time, any "changes" are altered to fit your continuity. Am I making sense? I'm still sticking with my theory, which seems to me to be the simpliest. If we were to look at a straight timeline of events on the island, the first time the Losties visit the island is when Locke & Co. end up "flashing" to the time period when the statue is built, which seems to be the earliest they've been there. The first time Jack visited the island is when the flash took him out of the Ajira flight and threw him into the 1970s. Because otherwise, how would the Dharma photo of the Losties work out?I think the reason people get all confused about this is that the the TV show is showing us this in a way that makes complete sense from a writing/entertainment perspective, but not really from a "realistic" timeline point of view. Which is why we have a scene where Faraday knocks on the hatch and tells Desmond to find his mother, and then immediately following a scene in which Desmond "suddenly" remembers this. The two are not connected--Desmond remembered that randomly, not because Faraday had "just" knocked on the hatch in the past--and are only shown in sequence for narrative purposes. -
I heard HBO axed it prematurely, so does the story offer any real closure or payoff? Is it worth investing any time in? All I know is --- it's got the guy from "Kings" in it. And King Silas rocks.
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"No follow up shot to the head, I guess that while his nature is a killer, he was still at least partially conflicted in shooting a kid, hence one shot and getting out of there as soon as possible " - either that or ABC didn't want to show a kid getting shot multiple times on television. One shot to the chest is one thing, a shooting rampage is another.
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"even if ben does live, him gettin shot by sayid never happened in the original timeline" - How do you know this? Ben has a tendency to keep things to himself. It's very possible that he remembered Sayid shooting him along and just didn't say anything. He probably remembered Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Jin, etc... all along, which is why he had all of their information before they even arrived on the island. Just throwing that out there.
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Trixie gets shot by Sun
Juliet's sister is Calamity Jane
The mother of Sawyer's kid (Cassidy) is Joni
EB Farnham is our you
Seems like I'm forgetting someone. -
Worth it....seriously!!
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Shooting/attempting to kill Ben was the wrong move. The kid was genuinely a good person back in the 70's. Now in the 00's he's a sociopath and general manipulator.
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That's why he recruited Sayid. That's why he gave him that speech about Sayid being a killer. I thought that was the whole point of that.
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Ben is just a tad off kilter in the 70's as well. Between an abusive father and the lack of any real connection to anyone, Ben's psychosis began in his formative years.
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I think you're real close, but off on one point. Russo would have to remember Jinn at Point D, or at least that event, because it happened in her youth, her past. You can't say Jinn's time travel "hasn't happened yet" because it did, Russo saw him 16 years ago. She just doesn't remember him because she saw him for 10 seconds, and she doesn't know about time travel, so she has no reason to think they could possibly be the same person.
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Mar 26, 2009 12:45:59 PM CDT
Sayid turned Kid Ben into a sociopath and manipulator.
by leafar the lost
I see it now. According to the Lost theory of time travel, the past cannot be changed, no matter what you do. Sayid shooting Kid Ben will change nothing. Kid Ben will lie on the ground all night until he is found by Jack, who will perform emergency surgery to save his life. After getting shot by a man that he liked and trusted, Kid Ben will never trust anyone again, and it will turn him into a sick, twisted, little man who creeps everyone out.
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and personally disagree with it. I still maintain that because we haven't been destroyed or have had our history unravel, that backward time travel has not taken place. Admittedly, that would be a hard thing to perceive given that those changes would occur instantaneously to us without our realization. However, if the unavoidable result of backward time-travel is a paradox (butterfly effect), I don't think we would be having this pleasant debate now. You would have to subscribe to the possibility of an infinite number of universes that can be created, vi sa vi quantum suicide. Since all of this blather is very theoretical, I revert back to Occam's razor: backward time-travel is not possible.
Fun to speculate and write stories about though. -
Deadwood is a "top five" show... truly one of the greats. It's true that it doesn't have a real "wrap-up" episode, but it doesn't really end in a cliffhanger either. It's more than satisfying.
The same goes with Carnivale, but that one ended with a bit more of a cliffhanger... or at least the promise of cray shit about to go down. -
I'm assuming he only had one bullet. Because the Sayid I know and love would have unloaded into that little shit.
btw, the linear timeline is what I was talking about in the first place. Look I know everyone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about but let's go back to Charlotte's death. Remember right there at the end she remembered Daniel creeping her out as a kid. I dunno if you disagree but I got the idea that she hadn't remembered him the entire time they'd known each other until that point. The way I saw it, the reason she didn't remember Daniel is because up 'til then he hadn't warned her in the past. It was her death, which was imminent, that made Daniel make the decision to warn her if he could by going back in time. When Daniel made his proclamation about not being able to change things it was before his girlfriend died. He could have changed his mind and decided that if there was a way he was going to do it. So if he didn't make that decision UNTIL she died, it hadn't happened in Charlotte's life before she got to the island this time. Once he made the decision to do it, she remembered it on her deathbed because NOW it had happened. It's like Daniel in the "future" goes back to Dharma time and warns her. So once he made the decision as she's dying her memory reboots with the NEW PAST.
I know you guys already think I'm wrong. I understand how you think time travel on the show works. That's fine. I don't need it explained again. I get what you're saying. But the Charlotte thing is WHY I thought of it the way I did. I know what Darlton said. But in the show, imo, with Charlotte in her final scene they showed the past being changed with her suddenly remembering something she never remembered before. -
I think she remembered it all along, she just didn't remember that it was Daniel until that moment... I might be wrong, though.
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I think she was time jumping in her mind the same way Desmond and that guy from the Freighter were doing, just before he died from exactly the same thing. This allowed her to relive different points in her life where she was able to remember events that she had previously forgotten. Or, Bombista explains it better, she remembered it happening but only now realizes it is Daniel because her present self knows Daniel. Watch The Constant again and you will see that guy acting just like Charlotte.
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Agreed, Boombista. But Cherry, I subscribe to the "Desmond-can-change-the-timeline" theory, so when he comes back (where the hell is he, anyway?), I think that changes will result just as you describe with the Charlotte/Daniel situation.
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Good Ben survives the gunshot wound, discovers he is special, becomes leader of the others. Meets Sayid, realizes who he is, and so makes sure Sayid has the nerve to try to kill him in the past. Whether Sayid would have killed Ben without Ben's manipulation is a moot point, because in the LOST world, what happened, happened. So, in a bizarre way, Ben made himself the way he is.
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Danielle didn't recognize Jin in 2004...cuz he didn't go back to 1984 until 2007. So...she can't remember meeting him as a pregnant lady in 1984 in 2004...if he hasn't gone back in time yet!
The past is not key here...it's the future you have to look at. Jin's trip to 1984 happened AFTER their 2004 meetings.
As for Charlotte recollecting Daniel's warning...I'm chalkin that up to her having a 'going towards the light' revelation.
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There was no real closure for Deadwood, so it left all it's fans frustrated. But it is still very much worth watching. Each episode is beautifully written and performed. It's the best that TV has to offer in that department. It's Tombstone meets Shakespeare, as many have said before.
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Goddamn right it's fuckin' worth it. Do yourself and every other hapless cocksucker a favor and watch it. You won't be fuckin' disappointed.And I'm offerin' a $50 bounty to each and every one of you hoopleheads that watches Kings. You do not want to miss out on Ian fuckin' McShane. Handsome cocksucker that he is.
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I don't put much stock in the "X didn't recognize Y" theory. For Danielle and Jin, it's been 16 years. I can't remember the guy who works in the office next to me, let alone someone I met 16 years ago.
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...once before why was Alex's death a surprise? Is that what he meant by Widmore changing the rules? And if so how is that possible?
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...are on stronger drugs than that truth serum they gave Sayid.
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It's not a closure kind of show since it's based on history. But if you're just coming to like Ian McShane because of Kings, then certainly you won't be disappointed by his role on Deadwood. It's the best cocksucking role on TV. Or among the best at least. Nothing compares to Al Swearingen scheming through soliloquy as he's getting his dick sucked, "What do you have a stagecoach to catch? Slow the fuck down!" Or watching the veins in his head pulse as he tries to communicate with Mr. Woo.
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or thoroughfare, Deadwood rides with aplomb. Whoever disagrees with me sucks cock by choice...SUCKS COCK by CHOICE! However, before this turns into a Lost vs Deadwood thread, let me say I love both shows for different reasons. I love ice cream and I love lasagna, but that doesn't mean ice cream is better than lasagna. We've just noticed a lot of crossover from the two shows (Oldham, Trixie, the mother of Sawyer's kid, and Juliet's sister). That tells me that both shows have good writing that attracts good caliber performers.
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Do I come into your joint misspelling your fuckin' name? No...I fuckin' don't, do I?But I appreciate the fact that you enjoy my full range of expression whilst getting my prick sucked.
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I'm having trouble wrapping my head around your theory... are you saying that if Danielle has lived until 2007, that at that point in time her meeting with Jin would 'hit her' and she'd suddenly remember it? So, when someone goes back in time and changes something, that change doesn't actually occur until the person that went back in time went back? So, Ben getting shot, if he actually dies, wouldn't effect present Ben until 2007? Meaning that anything that the losties do in 1977 wouldn't change anything that's happened until 2007? Maybe you can elaborate for me.
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Ashok0, Deadwood is not to be missed.
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Cuz they've been down this road before. This would seem to make sense that Ben knows he can't 'kill Charles'...and Alex wasnt suppose to 'die'.
I think they've done some time skipping themselves. -
Last night's episode was good, but downright depressing. I really hated seeing Sayid turned to the side of evil once more--- but as a child murderer, this time. This does seem to support the rumor that he's the major character we'll be losing this season, as such acts have normally served as harbingers of a "Lost" character's demise. this was actually worse than Micheal's turn, because we all knew what Sayid was thinking before he pulled the trigger (whereas many were caught off guard by Dawson). The only thing that would cheapen the tragedy of the moment would be if we were to find out that Sayid shot the "wrong" Ben... though I doubt that Lindenof and Cuse would cheat like that (and am with the crowd that thinks Ben will somehow be resurrected). If Sayid is on his way out, maybe Naveen Andrews will join Perrineau (sp) on his show, though...
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...would be changing the past. Which isn't possible according to Dan and seemingly Darlton.
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...dead on the latest podcast.
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Richard visited John in the hosptial before John ever went back and told Richard to do it. Daniel was sure that Jughead wouldn't explode because the island was there in the future. You can't change the future and you can't change the past, it is and has always been one unchanged timeline. Ben had always been shot, he has always remembered the 815ers, and Charlotte had always been warned not to come back by a future Daniel. I think that either Ben or Widmore is ultimately trying to change the past (perhaps by using Desmond) but so far they have been unsuccessful.
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and Sayid says, "I'm not who you think I am" and Ben replies, "My mistake". Ben totally knew Sayid was going to go back in time and shoot him!
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... yes and yes. It's interesting that we're just now seeing Ben's faterh as abusive, though. There seemse to be some unexplained event(s) that pushed him over the edge, as well. Of course, I don't like the fact that Locke is once again being manipulated by one of Ben's employees. When Sayid's bounty hunter asks, "why would I work for someone like that?" it was pretty clear that Sayid had it right. This means that she's now whispering in Locke's ear--- and implies that Ben intentionally placed operatives in both time periods. Quite brilliant, but still something that will force Locke to play defense (unless he somehow senses this already).
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... yes and yes. It's interesting that we're just now seeing Ben's faterh as abusive, though. There seemse to be some unexplained event(s) that pushed him over the edge, as well. Of course, I don't like the fact that Locke is once again being manipulated by one of Ben's employees. When Sayid's bounty hunter asks, "why would I work for someone like that?" it was pretty clear that Sayid had it right. This means that she's now whispering in Locke's ear--- and implies that Ben intentionally placed operatives in both time periods. Quite brilliant, but still something that will force Locke to play defense (unless he somehow senses this already).
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I'm going to the WGA-w LOST presentation tonight in LA, where the entire writing staff's going to have a Q & A with us. Any questions you want me to try and throw their way if I get selected?
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Because he's still alive in present, which means Sayid shooting him as a child has already happened.
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..know that Alex was going to die?
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Took the words out of my mouth. I really, really do understand what Cherry, Chief, Jabba and everybody else is saying; in fact, pointing to the run-down New Otherton that Sun and Lapidus tour with Christian made me rethink things for a second. But Richard already going to see John be born and visit young John in the 'linear' timeline we viewers are seeing (and by that, I mean the timeline as followed through the eyes of the Losties) BEFORE Locke tells him to go do those things in the 50's (again, in that 'linear' timeline we're following, right?) disproves that theory. Much more likely that New Otherton has sat there and become overrun by the island's fauna for the three years the O6 have been in the real world and the Dharma Losties have been kickin' it 70's style, since Alpert and the Natives/Hostiles/Others had retreated to the temple.
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If Rousso DID remember the face of a random asian guy she met twice 20 years ago while she was possibly in shock and at the very least pumped on adrenalin and fear, THEN I'd be surprised. Want
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Could you ask about Libby, if we'll ever get her full story, or at least some of the missing pieces from it? I've heard tell they pulled away from the character because of 'audience disinterest', which is a real shame. Great character, great actress, and so many unanswered questions.
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Ask them to confirm once and for all..."If a Lostie does something in the past (1977), like Sayid shooting Ben, does that act ripple into the future...ie, change anything that happened in the future (2004, 2007)?"
I'm certain you are gonna get a lot of mumbo jumbo about course correcting...but it would be interesting to hear them clarify it one way or another. -
...but in all your gibberish you still haven't answered my initial question: is what you were trying to say that the SERIES will wrap around and end with 1.3, Tabula Rasa? If not, what was your point? A lot of moronic rambling, but not many points. Are you BilboFett's other screen name? I think you might be...p.s. Stream of thought writing only works well when someone has actual thoughts that are worth hearing.
Thank you. -
and forgot about? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it's all of them. Or at least...a lot.
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Ben THOUGHT Keamy would not shoot Alex...when he did...he was surprised...cuz somehow Ben knows she was suppose to live beyond that point.
He may have been legitimately shocked and angered that Widmore, via Keamy, found a way to 'change' what was suppose to happen.
Perhaps Widdy has a 'Desmond' working on HIS side? -
What's the point. They don't answer fucking anything anyway. And if they do it's some lameass joke. Listening to the podcast is like squeezing lime juice into your eyes if you're a Lost fan.
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But I could be wrong. I don't think she works for Ben. I think that's what made the scene so powerful. Sayid (smartest of the Losties) puts things together, just as we have, that she must work for Ben and this is all a trap to get hi back to the island. So he asks what kind of person would work for a murderer, a man who committed genocide. And Sayid realizes that she doesn't work for Ben, but he does. It's an important moment in his character arc.
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Makes no sense, unless you are assuming that "this has all happened before" and Ben is on a time loop. Not sure why you are assuming that, unless this is just a far-out theory you're hashing and re-hashing here, but you are acting like it's the truth even though there's no plot points to point to that.
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And my other brother Darryl. And we're here to fuck you up.
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Damn skippy. I totally agree. widmore has somehow figured out how to chnage things, ala Desmond, and Ben is shitting himself about it.
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...just like if someone shot someone that YOU knew and loved, you would be surprised and shocked. You, however, would not be a time-traveler on an endless loop lol. So to assume that Ben is because of one scene of shock when his daughter was killed is erroneous.Commie...I think I may have misread and you were just responding to CheifBrody and it's his crazy timeloop theory, so the above post should probably be for him then.
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1984 occurred BEFORE 2004. That ain't rocket science.
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it could be conceivable that Ben has had all the information about what has happened up through coming back to the Island on 316, because we're going to find that li'l Ben has gotten that information first hand...from the people who lived through it, ie through the time-displaced Losties in the DI with him. This would explain why Ben seems to always be one step ahead of everyone, even when it seems like he's in deep shit. Alllll the way back to when he was Henry Gale, being tortured and inmprisoned; there's that one speech he gives to Jack (and Locke? I've gotta' rewatch the show...) over the bowl of cereal. It's this all-knowing, smug attitude he's got, and has always had. So maybe Widmore did somehow change what Ben was told would happen (Alex lives) into something else (Alex dies), and that's what he means by 'changing the rules', since (and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but) whatever happened, happened...or in this case, whatever will happen, happens. I like that idea, Chief, that Widmore has a 'Desmond'. Crazy awesome. So I don't think li'l Ben is in any sort of time loop, but he's somehow gotten information from others how have time jumped. This could lead to even further fun, because Ben on the island currently, with Locke, Cesar, Ilana, etc, has no knowledge of what's coming next (since the info he might have gotten from the time-jumped Losties would only go up to 316 crashing). Further proof: Sun got the fuckin DROP on Ben and took his boat; the Ben Linus I know would never have been that trusting...or rather, that unknowledgable about events that are happening.
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Sorry, there were some serious typos in the last post. *to self* Proofreading is our friend...
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That may be why Ben could not kill Widmore in his hotel. He knows Widmore is alive in the Future, so he "can't" kill him now. I can see how this whatever happened, happened rule is confusing to some people. It's not just that you can't change the past, you can't change the present or future either. So their present acts are just as predetermined as their actions in the past. I'm telling you, the whole show is going to be about determinism vs free will
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Mar 26, 2009 2:50:56 PM CDT
"Because I'm from the future"... Goooood Evening J.F.!!
by banditdarville
My favorite episode of an already great season. When Sayid was tripping his ball sack off, I kind of wanted him to say to Sanderson: "My name's Larry. This is my brother Daryl, and my other brother Daryl."
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you know what's interesting: sayid's off-island oceanic 6 period flashbacks are flashbacks from our perspective in the 2007/2008 present, and flashforwards from sayid and sawyer's 1977 perspective. it will be interesting to see the way the writers resolve and create time loops. i can't wait to see how they explain the whispers. it's gonna be some dope writing and editing, different POV from different characters in different timelines. that's the money way to write that scene.
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the way that sayid saying, "ask sawyer, he'll tell you," got brushed over by over-zealous radzinsky was fucking awesome, and of course "you used exactly enough," stoned out of his gourd. HI-larious
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Sure Richard goes to John's early life...but going with my theory...we have exactly ZERO idea of when Richard went into the past. He may have left in 2010 to go back to John's past...we have no jumping off point for him. Therefore, my theory still holds.
Honestly, I DO appreciate you taking the time to find a flaw in my logic...I wasn't trying to be an ass in my title:)
Please try and come up with another one... -
I'm game. :D First, lemme get one thing straight...you're postulating that Richard is not ageless, but in fact is a time traveller?
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... if Ilana doesn't somehow work for Linus, then her being on flight 316 is a rather significant coincidence (that overkills the "destiny" theme of Lost). Though she claimed to wokr for a man that Sayid killed, do we know that the Economist aet al aren't a part of Linus's organization (or if Widdmo'res organization is truly separate from that of Ben?). It's hard to say right now, but I'm not thinking that it was a coincidence we found Sayid and Ilana on the Ajira plane.
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from everything we've learned during the time-skipping of this show, we know that whatever happpened always happened. sayid did not kill ben, because ben is alive in 2004-2008, he CANNOT die before then. i agree that sayid's shot was dead center ring (how could it not be?), but ben will recover, (whether or not anyone operates on him, i think), although i believe jack (less likely juliet) will operate on him. i don't know, but it makes sense that next episode should be a ben flashback. anyway, i do see that the changing timelines theory is possible, and i wouldn't be disappointed if they went that route, as long as it's well written. we do have some evidence it's possible, through some changed future evidence (trashed DI barracks/processing center? changed numbers recording in frank's headset?). anyway, i can't wait to find out, but i'm calling a fully alive ben (not as some were theorizing above, an undead ghost-ben, or a resurrected ben ala chrisitian or locke.
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Next episode's a Kate-centric, "Whatever Happened, Happened". After THAT is a Ben-centric, "Dead is Dead".
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... this was likely posted above, but does anyone else think the marina near Sayid's workplace was meant to hint back at Ben's phone call to Jack ("I got... sidetracked")? You almost wonder if Des will be shown to have made some post or pre Ben cameos, come next season...
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You *almost* wonder if the bullet wound will have something to do with Ben's future spinal tumor (or whatever the condition was which required Jack's expertise).
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The reason why I am always late to posting here.
Time travel is odd because if say, Ben does die, then later in life, everything he is responsible is wiped out of existance. I understand the fact of Linear, but I can't get in to that. What's the point of time travel then.
Maybe it's just that one of my staples of time travel is Back to the Future. Ripples and such. Marty's picture disappearing, etc.
Of course, without seeing previews, if Ben does become chosen, a bullet hole will more than likely heal in a ridiculous Wolveriene-style type of time frame. Of course, this will very much interest Richard and the Hostiles,
but until then, we are seeing them travel through time because it has already happened in this story. We are just seeing it played out the correct way. Not from the points of people living in different parts in history.
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Widmore does have a Desmond, and his name is Desmond. Widmore has been more responsible than any other character for getting Desmond where he needs to be. He's hoping to eventually use Desmond to change some important event that happened in the past, while Ben is desperately trying to make everything turn out as it always has. Perhaps the O6 never were meant to leave the island and instead were always meant to go straight back to '77, but Desmond's presence caused them to get rescued. Ben then has to make sure that they get back to the island and end up where they are supposed to be. Ben needs this to happen because their presence in his childhood gives him great knowledge of future events, which allows him to become very powerful. The only problem with this theory is that Widmore seemed like he tried to help John get the O6 back to the island, but then again, nothing is at it seems with this show. And yes, both Charles and Ben have knowledge of future events past any point that we've seen, specifically that Charles is still alive at some point in the future.
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... why not ask them if their long-term story outlines are truly linear, or if they're more like a tree diagram with multiple future possibilities?
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I liked seeing Lil' Sayid. Perhaps a whole show called Lil' Lost with the cast memebers as kids. Here's a link to a funny Lil' Lost pitch...(love the drawing of Lil' Ben)
http://tinyurl.com/db8nq5
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About charlotte, I thought the same thing...that faraday, at the moment she was dying, decided if he had the chance he would tell her to never go back to the island...so the thought rippled thru time so she remembered right then....give these lost nerds one phrase and they carve it into their foreheads "whatever happened, happened" is not the end all to every lost time travel discussion...even if ben is not dead, it don't confirm that it already happened originaly...obviously the losties affected their own timeline , that much is not in question...whether events can b changed from the original chain of events is in question. My opinion is yes..even if ben is still alive, he was not shot originally... until one of the producers says otherwise, I say that our opinions are valid interpretations
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Speculation.
The problem with having so much faith in a fictional universes "rules", is: once you've, supposed, figured out the playing field and feel comfortable, the creators of this fictional universe (the writers), can throw you a curve ball.
As of right now...I only "called" Sayid shooting Ben, I am speculating on the outcome. I don't think the writers will necessarily "break" any rules, though they could add a rule you all aren't aware exist.
These Time Travel Rules are not physics. They have a logic, yes, but this is still Science fiction and the writers, if they're on IT, are free to introduce new elements that make us re-think everything that's come before. -
one thing has occured to me why hasnt ben got those nose bleeds. or alpert for that matter.
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Huh?
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Cause, 1: Ben wasn't on the Island when it was flashing. He was in LA and other places.
2: Alpert as far as we know is an original inhabitant of the Island. Why would it effect him?
The only people who seemed to be effected were the 815 crash-ees. Which makes no sense why Juliet remained flashing thru time. That and people who left the Island one and then returned. But I would have been ok with Juliet dying. Really. -
...hear of the boy who miraculously survived a bullet through the heart and start to believe the Island wants him as the next leader.
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In case you haven't noticed the island is crawling with dead people.
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You aren't prepared for what will happen in that episode.
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Ben is not on a loop. Whenever we've seen Ben, it has always been his "present". Now could Ben have traveled to the future and seen Alex? Maybe, but that to me would violate the "one timeline" rule. The most plausable theory to me was that someone like Richard traveled to the future and when he came back, Ben asked "How's Alex?", and that he was told "She's fine", a lie.
But I always felt that Ben and Whitmore had a gentlemen's agreement to keep family out of it, ie, Ben wouldn't kill Penny. That's why he said "The rules have changed", IMHO. -
He wakes up in bed with a car battery next to him.
All kidding aside, didn't Sayid's father look like the terrorist that first greets Stark in the movie? -
Mar 26, 2009 4:40:08 PM CDT
Im guessing that Kate talks Jack into saving Ben
by 4we8have15to16go23back42
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Multi-paragraph posts "explaining time travel"? Give me a break. Someone up thread summed it up perfectly: LOST is doing 12 Monkeys rules, not back to the future rules. And Lil' Ben is not dead, and BilboFett's spoilers were most likely true. Which means this show is fucked. I'll keep watching, but I don't have to like it.
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As far as we've seen, we have no proof Alpert has ever travelled in time. Quite to the contrary, we have a moment where Locke DOES travel through time, but for some reason Alpert (and the rest of the Others/Hostiles/Natives, for that matter) DOESN'T. I'm not saying it's not possible, that he isn't actually immortal/unaging but instead a time traveler; I'm just saying with the evidence we have so far it points towards 'not likely'. Alpert doesn't move with Locke and the rest of the time-displaced Losties (which, the time jumps from the frozen donkey wheel moved ALL of them, Frogurt and all the red shirts, Rose & Bernard, Farrady and Charlotte and Miles, Sawyer and Juliet, hell, even Jin). In fact, Alpert and the Others are the only living (well, 'living' as far as we know; maybe all the Others ARE the risen dead, ala Christian and Locke?) creatures who are on or around the island to move with it in the time jumps, unless anyone can think of someone I'm forgetting. Also, Alpert in the 50s doesn't seem to know a damn thing about time travel, or what the hell's going on (and granted, he could be lying, but I'm just going with what we've seen). The same with his meeting w/Sawyer in the 70s, doesn't know who the hell this guy is, and seems just as taken aback as when he met John. He seems to progressively know more as the years go on, making me then deduce that he's living a straight, linear path, no time travel included.
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are the only living creatures who are on or around the island to NOT move with it in the time jumps. Dammit.
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New EW Doc Jensen Article
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"Alpert and the Others are the only living creatures" not jumping through time. Does that mean there are some time-travelling polar bears on this island? Sweet.
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would be sweet. And an excellent name for a band. So would 'Alpert and the Others'.
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Didn't Charlotte find one of the Dharma polar bears buried in Tunisia, practically fossilized? As if it'd been there a loooong time? Time travelling polar bears INDEED!
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If she was one of the Others, why did she not jump or move with the Island thru the time shifts?
I'm pretty sure there were people with Richard Alpert when Locke showed up at the end of sea 4 that got to the Island after Juliet. Richard was always recruiting or running his Milletos place in Oregon.
Maybe it's cause I really have never liked Juliet since she took that fuckin bit of Jacks sandwich in the Hydra, but still, think about it, makes sense right? -
That's a good question. I remember reading the theory that when Juliet was branded by the sheriff-lady way back when, one of the consequences was that she lost the "immunity" that the Others have.
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While I am far from 100% on this, another theory that I am surprised I don't hear more is: The Island is more in control of the time skips than we might assume.
The Island wants Juliet and Sayid (etc) in the 70's, but not Locke or Sun (for example).
It would, at least, explain the lack of a clear pattern. The time-skippers are not moved by objective rules, but by the subjective desires of the Island (or Jacob, or whatever). -
I am still sticking with the theory that Richard is an android...and a caretaker of the original tech of the island. More probably, Richard was the captain of the Black Rock, found the fountain of youth, and is ageless.
Either way, my time travel theory works...especially if he's connected to the temple and the tech. -
...the temple and why smokey guards it, what smokey is, who Jacob is, the Black Rock, Richard's secret, and how the statue ties in. If not, I will be pissed.
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When it comes to time travel, there are basically two possibilities. Back to the Future played loosely with rules and let themselves use either possibility whenever they felt like it, but that's not how it would really work with time travel (and yes, there are some serious physicists who will tell you time travel is at least theoretically possible).
The two possibilities are that there is a single, unalterable timeline universe that time travelers can move around in, but the past or future cannot be changed, because the time travelers have already done their doings in that time line. If time traveler bob travels back to ancient Egypt and becomes a pharaoh, he was always the pharaoh.
The other possibility is that time travelers can go back into the past and change whatever they want. It won't actually effect the timeline they came from (so no disintegrating Michael J. Fox hands), but create a new alterate timeline universe, which is theoretically possible under multiverse theory. So if Bob went back and became the pharaoh, he's now the pharaoh in the alternate universe.
In Lost, they've had Faraday clearly establish the single timeline theory. We'll find out with the fate of little Ben whether or not this is just a theory or Faraday was establishing the rules of time travel that the Lost story logic will adhere to. My guess is it's the latter, and I hope they stick to it instead of letting it go willy nilly all over the place like Back to the Future (not that I didn't love the original too).
As far as why some people have traveled through time and not others, they seem to have been setting up that the island itself has some kind of "will" or "intent", a metaphysical gray area where a lot of things can happen in a whoosh and a flash. I hope they at least address this a bit more as the series continues, though I wouldn't expect a thorough explanation. -
I've seen some people do it but when I try the damn software just bunches it together anyway...
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Yeah, that may be possible. But who is to say she was the only one branded. Oh well.
Also, if the Island is moving people for its own purposes, it would be interesting to see if it moved Bernard and Rose to a totally different time period. Cause as of now, all I have read on here is where are they, rather then...when?
After Sawyer and Jin and co looking for 3 years, you think they might have found them already.
So who knows, they WERE all moving together last we saw all of them getting flame arrows shot at them. They technically should be in 77.
On a side note, Locke left the Island and although he broke 1 leg, he wasn't paralyzed. So, if Rose were to leave, she would be fine, right? -
And you can do breaks by typing without the spaces. ToughGuyRizzo, I'm really intrigued with the Bernard and Rose situation. I read somewhere that the writers are fully aware of them (and it's not a plot hole). I'm banking on them hanging with the Others.
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use: but not spaced, after every paragraph/sentence you wan to separate. I hope that comes out, lol.
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Yeah, it's clear that Sawyer is and has been looking for them, just not making it a huge plot point on the show. It would be interesting to see them with the Others. I mean, those 2 dont want to leave the island. I'd like to see a flashback to a meeting with Richard and Rose.
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That should help. A lot.
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GOB Adama - I agree with you
HoichiTheEarless - Darlton has confirmed that the rules of Time Travel have been set down by Daniel Faraday & Eloise Hawkings and that they will stick to that. They also said however that Desmond is an exception to the rule and has the ability to change things because he was so close to the Swan Hatch explosion. -
Yeah you know how she makes painfully honest comments. Imagine what she'll say to Richard. About being a metrosexual and his eyeliner
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But his name aint Desmond. It's Richard. Faraday has a 'Desmond'.
I soooo didn't want LOST to go the 'time travel' route because this kind of confusion is ultimately unavoidable. But so far, Darlton has not broken the "Whatever happened...Happened" rule they established with Faraday.
There are no alternate timelines...but that's not to say the past can't be changed...the future course corrects to the same outcome we've all witnessed the past 5 seasons.
Ben will eventually end up killing Sayid when they all make it back to the present day...and Sayid will say...as his lungs fill with blood..."Wait a minute...I KILLED you when you were a boy!"..."I had an excellent surgeon" Ben will say with a smile. -
I guess he knows what happens to know to them. He just didnt tell them as an adult.(maybe)
I'm guessing the survivors leave or something happens to them before "purge" because they werent there when it happened. (I don't remember seeing any of the surivors in Ben's Flasback Episode-The Man behind the Curtain) -
Desmond. A rule's a rule or it's not. I know it's their show and they can make up what ever they want, but they might as well make Jacob the pissed off giraffe we've been waiting for, just as long as it talks. Des changing things because he was too close to the explosion doesn't make sense. Unless he's a superhero which would officially make LOST the same as every other scifi based show on TV.
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or can I?
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The cameo of "A Separate Reality" was interesting, though I suspect it's a red herring. If Darlton said they're sticking to Faraday's rules they should, but I think that book was thrown in there to make you consider the possibility of separate timelines. If they said Desmond is the exception, that probably means, at some point, they are going there.
But back to Castaneda, I read his books when I was a few years older than young Ben. He claimed these were true accounts of his apprenticeship with a Yaqui shaman, Don Juan, and it turned out he made most of it up. That acknowledged I still think his books are great reads and even if they are fiction, they seem to have been based on real shamanic teachings, as the theories are not altogether different from the real old world indigenous belief systems, that there are different layers of reality, different ways of perceiving different realities. Perceiving these realities may be achieved through the use of hallucinogenic plants, or through dream work or astral projection.
And for what it's worth, many theoretical physicists are now beginning to acknowledge that a multiverse could exist, though they haven't yet made the leap that traversing through them could be a mental act instead of a physical one.
There seem to be a couple of ways that the Castaneda book throws context into Lost. One of course is the concept of separate realities, which they only seem to have set up for Desmond. But the book itself had much to do with hallucinogens, which every once in a while make an appearance in Lost. Maybe the book in this case is more reflective of Sayid getting dosed. While he was tripping he seemed to have come to a realization of "his purpose" though it's probably a tragic misread on his part. Never the less, "purpose" is a distinct theme in Lost and Sayid's purpose may have been in fact to shoot Ben, though I certainly hope the Island (and the writer's) have a bigger purpose for him than that. -
what exactly happened when Desmond triggered the Swan's fail-safe. Likewise, we don't know why the Swan needed a fail-safe, or what the incident was in the first place. Maybe that it involved time travel, and the fail-safe affected Desmond somehow.
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(and his ability--or lack thereof--to change the timeline) will be integralto the latter part of this season. His entrance is going to be big. I don't know any spoilers on this, just my intuition.
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I don't get the inclusion of that book if it's supposed to mean anything. Because I thought they weren't going with the spiritual, mythological, etc. But with that and the Egyptian stuff it's like they're trying to combine science and faith. Which means there could be any explanation for what's going on. I mean the whispers could be them talking to themselves from another overlapping universe, or it could be the Gods, anything. The one time I really did think of those books was back in the day with Locke and Boone and the paste. If that wasn't a "vision quest" I don't know what is. But since then, since they concentrated on Dharma and the Others, it's been all scientific research and whatnot.
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will he be as willing to join the others-Hostiles, thinking that one of them shot him. Will his father still be a D!ck Will he be paralyzed. His actions could indeed change the future.
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What if: the Incident at the Swan actually involved time travel--and specifically, the time-travelling Losties. What if Dharma realized that the Swan was somehow (not sure about this) connected to time travel, and there's some altercation with the Losties. THAT is the Incident. So they build the fail safe and the button in order to prevent time-travelling from taking place, trying to prevent the Losties from time travelling in the first place (which we know to be flawed, but they may not). Then in 2004 the hatch blows sky-high, and time travelling is possible again. Which leads Ben to "move" the island.Probably far off--lots of holes in that. But I like the idea that the Losties have influenced more of the incidences on the island than we think.
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The thing about Des this season is that so far he's not mattered at all. Daniel sent him back to get his mom to help but she already had Jack and Sun and Ben right in front of her. Him going there had nothing to do with anything. The only reason it could have been put in there was to get him away from Penny and Charlie long enough for Ben to kill one or both of them. But it still had nothing to do with Daniel's supposed purpose, which they seemed to have dropped for the time being as well.
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Mar 26, 2009 7:13:34 PM CDT
A whole talkback on time travel theories for a tv show
by christian_bale_trashed_my_lights
Geeks unite!
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But I think that's exactly why he's set for a comeback. They've gone to great lengths to indicate that Desmond is important ("Flashes Before Your Eyes" and "The Constant", specifically), on a completely different level than any of the other characters. Hawking herself told Desmond that he has to save the world. Some people think he did that by pushing the button. I think he hasn't even started.Also, there's the possibility that Ben's tying up loose ends involves Des and Penny. That's the too-obvious answer, but maybe Desmond going to LA to look for Hawking and therefore get into an altercation with Ben was part of his destiny.
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Is more or less correct
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Who watches this shit? Why is it on?
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Correct about Desmond, or the Swan?
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you have multiple user names? you do don't you you little frakkin snake..man, i have never understood that.
Sweet pea, ya have got to let the anger go...really, no good will ever come of it. jeez, curious as to what psycho-imperative drives ya there..verrry funky. Are you so intent on savoring your shallow wit that you actually troll looking for someone to diminish?..Nahhhh! Kid, I have seen you do it time and time and time again, in many differing talk backs and in point of fact just about every post you have ever offered is some such feeble attempt at riding down someone else. What up with that? Not hugged enough? bed-wetter? Heh, it is cool mon petite fromage. Don't go changin just to try and please me..you are what you are..sadly.
..And yeah..all the 'morons' and self-proclamations that you is sooooo much smarter than everyone else and the 'ps's' and the snarky spiteful 'thank you's' and the use of 'douche' and what not and the whole 'wow, look I know more about this than you cause I have seen all these obscure..blah blah blah'..welll that is cute..and I am quite sure ..wooo ooo ooo..genius to you..but C'MON! let the rage go! stop being a wanker and start being a wiener..err..winner! I know you have it in you! heh, mira, my fruity freund..THIS is aintitcool! whiskey! sexy! freedom! movies! tv! fun! enjoy!
Let the bitter go, amiga, let the bitter go...now, excuse me..I'm going to leave you to curl up in a ball in the corner of the shower and finish your cry while I go drink my expensive scotch and watch UCONN beat down the boilermakers..mmm.. boilermaker.
And, remember, executor...stop being racist and a gay-basher. It is so not right..sigh. stream of consciousness enough for ya? god awful all mighty. -
Anybody remember last season when one of the episodes opened with Faraday sitting watching a news broadcast about the rescue of the Oceanic Six? He is sitting there crying and a lady asked him why and he says "I don't know." This was before we really knew who he was. It seems a safe bet to me that he eventually gets off the island and back to the present day (2007 his present day). Unless he was supposed to be old and they did a piss poor makeup job.
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First of all...I am re-posting what I wrote to get others up to speed:
This may be complicated...but everyone try and read closely and follow this logic...
Everyone assumes that if a change is made in the past...it will ripple into the future. Not true in Lost...never has been. "Lost" travel is LINEAR. Events in the "past" haven't happened yet. Sayid just shot Ben...but that happened AFTER the second plane crash...in a LINEAR way.
For instance, Russo sees Jinn for the first time at the 819 beach camp. She doesn't recognize him...EVEN THOUGH he may have been the last human being she saw before Sayid...who found her hideout.
Please stay with me. Even though she saw Jinn in the past...it didn't happen until AFTER she already knew him...in a LINEAR sense. Point A is Russo landing on the island. Point B is Jinn landing on the island. Point C is Russo meeting Jinn at camp. Point D is Jinn traveling back to point A. In "Lost" time travel...regardless of what happens at point D (confrontation with Russo), it has NO affect on points A, B or C...because D has NOT HAPPENED YET!! It is in the future. D is at a STATIONARY point on the timeline. Russo doesn't recognize Jinn at C...because he hasn't traveled back yet...and when he does...it has no effect on Russo's future/past...because she already meets him at point C.
We have seen that people's brains and thoughts can be is two places at once. Point D Russo's brain is still connected through the island's mental/spatial ethernet to point C Russo's brain. We have seen this through what happened to Charlotte.
The point is actually more simple than it seems. Events in point D cannot alter A,B or C. If they could, Russo would have promptly shot Jinn the first second she saw him...believing he was "infected" like her entire group...who she slaughtered.
People try and play this off as an "oversight" by the writers. B.S. They know exactly what they are doing...which is why the following is coming:
Point A: Hurley come to the island.
Point B: Hurley sees his numbers on the hatch and tries to stop the explosion.
Point C: Hurley goes to the 70s.
Point D: Hurley somehow tries to stop the death of Libby...and gets Dharma to use the numbers inside and outside the hatch...so that point B Hurley stops the hatch from ever being opened. Once again proving that ALL "ISLAND" time is LINEAR...and cannot be changed.
If Locke and the 819s didn't blow the hatch open with Black Rock dynamite...they would have built a fire so hot around the hatch, that it would have melted or expanded the internal air (like a bullet)and blown the door...or they would have found the other door...or Jinn would have made acid out of sea urchin spines, boar feces and the last roll of antacids....the point is...it had to happen in the LINEAR way time works on Lost.
Of course this wasn't just for Cherry...but I'd love for someone to prove my theories %$#*@ wrong.
D CANNOT EFFECT A...NOT EVER!!
Kes out, bitches!
Second, Cherry...I wasn't trying to single you out...I think we are on the same page. Not sure where the "Cherry Can't Grasp Time Travel" crap started.
Third, Desmond has never, EVER physically time traveled. His CONSCIOUSNESS traveled...just like Good Charlotte and JUST LIKE DANIELS RABBITS. This also fits my theory that Russo could not recognize Jinn in the present. Her consciousness just assimilated the fact that she knew him...in the same way that we see someone we KNOW WE KNOW...but could have never met. Re-incarnation, mistakes, knowing someone similar...whatever...it still does not break my LINEAR theory.
Fourth, Desmond became special when he was hammered after turning the key...but it WASN'T time travel. It was consciousness travel...all within his natural lifetime. Maybe an allegory for out-of-body experiences. Either way, he is the key to the Losties figuring this out.
Fifth, I am believing my theory is getting more bulletproof as I consider all your kind comments and support...and reflect on past episodes. Still looking for a SOLID piece of evidence otherwise (no slight intended fain).
And finally, if you doubt my theory, FOCUS on the idea that things MUST happen on the island...and off...and that explains why people can't kill themselves or survive ridiculous falls or PLANE CRASHES...unless the island or this world deems it so. One way or another...the main events (i.e. life, death or taxes), will happen one way or the other.
P.S. Sun didn't go to the 70s because she was thrown across the plane at the last second...thus NOT the same as the original crash. If alive, Charlie would not have gone to the 70s if he wasn't in the lav.
Kes OUT bitches... -
Mar 26, 2009 7:53:59 PM CDT
So did Dan leave the island? And if so did he leave to...
by commiepinko
...find lil'Des since he's the only one that can change anything?
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So where is Widmore in all this(1970s)? He told Locke he was their Leader and then Ben purged him (lol) So is Alpert the leader currently or is Widmore? It would be weird for Widmore to take Richard's place after he worked for him. Maybe that's why Richard looks all "castaway-ish" when he talk to Kid Ben, Widmore booted him out of the Tribe?
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...was really in charge you'd think it would be him meeting with Dharma instead of Richard. But this could be just so they don't have to hire a 3rd actor to play the character or something similar.
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Sadly not yet, the TB functions like the Losties are firmly in 1977.
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Wish it got an extra season, sorry again off topic seen a couple of episodes of Kings, for me it shines when McShane is onscreen then becomes drivel when he isnt.
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The problem with your theory on the islands time line is Richard Alpert. He DID remember his encounter with Locke before Locke experienced it himself. Now, of course, you could argue that whatever makes him ageless also makes him an exception, but it is a counter example. Then there's Charlotte, who remembers encountering Faraday as a child, something we have not seen happen yet in Faraday's timeline. And the only real example to prove your theory is Desmond's encounter with Faraday at the Swan door, but again you have the problem of Desmond's "specialness". The telling example would be Ben. He's the one who should be remembering all the losties as a child. If it is revealed that he remembered them all along, remembers getting shot by Sayid, etc., and that's why they were on his "list", etc., then your theory is wrong. We'll also have "the Incident" explained at the end of the season. If any of the time traveling Losties had any impact on it, took any actions which directly set in place the course of events which led to the Incident, your theory is also wrong. The Incident was first revealed in the orientation film in season 2, long before the losties went back to the 70's. If they caused the Incident, the Incident would not exist until they retroactively caused it, therefore it could not be in the orientation film, because the Incident occurred on Point C in the island linear time, while they watched the orientation film in point B... this according to your theory. But as will no doubt be the case since the season finale surrounds it, the Losties will surely be directly involved in The Incident, and your theory would be disproven by the existence of the orientation film, which remembers The Incident before the Losties caused it. We shall see...
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that gay juice made sayid so fruity
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There is still so much that i want to know which seams like that they will never cover. I hope that they cover some of the realm of the dead of the islands inhabitants. I want to see the smoke monsters lair !
i want to know how the black rock got on the island even if a hurrican lifted it on to a volcano and then it erupted and shot it into space then a piece of space dust hit it in such a way that it re-entered earths atmosphere and landed in one piece on the island
I just want to point out one thing about the time travel business, as the old woman says time has a way of course correcting itself. Maybe things will turn out the same but via a different route.
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I'm probably the only one who thought this but, did anyone else consider that that stuff didn't even work and Sayid just spilled his guts for the hell of it?
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a concentrated dose of bravo tv.
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They still have another season to go, think they will mostly get there.
Are there any mysteries you don't want resolved or are you happy for most major ones to be resolved and have nothing to ponder for years to come ? -
OMG...ok...The "Incident" Happened. That means it WILL happen...whether or not a LOSTIE is responsible for creating it or not!
In other words...if Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Sayid, Faraday, Hurley...ANYONE who travelled back to 1977 never stepped FOOT in 1977..."the Incident" will still happen.
And your absolutely correct...a LOSTIE will probably trigger "the Incident"...but even if that person hadn't gone back...IT STILL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.
We know it happened...because Candle TOLD us so in the original Orientation film. Because it happened...it matters not WHO triggered it, cuz it was destined to happen.
The tag line for this season is "DESTINY CALLS". So far, Darlton has heavily explored FATE in the first 3 seasons of LOST...This is their way of exploring DESTINY this season. -
Darlton discribed Richard as a Paca Lama (or however you spell it) The Paca Lama's job is to find and select the next Dali Lama. My guess is that Widmore was in charge just like later Ben was. But Richard finds future leaders, somehow he probably somehow knew that Little Ben would be lead by Ghost Mommy outside of the fence and was there to meet him. Thats also probably why he visited Locke at the Foster Home. The Jughead meeting probably impressed him enough to go leader hunting. During the present Richard seemed to play more of an advisor role. Im guessing that he went to meet Sawyer as a representative/advisor of Widmore?
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I'm also in the opinion the drug did little but make Sayid feel no pain...I believe he was in COMPLETE control over was he was saying. He knew he was going to come off as a raving LOON if he simply told the truth...so that's exactly what he did.
Sayid, I think realizes he can't change...he was a torturer who couldn't escape the role of torturer...turned killer who, no matter how hard he tries...cannot escape the roll of killer. He fought so hard to get away from that craphole island...and yet...no matter how hard he tried...he couldn't escape from returning to it. DESTINY, anyone?
Sayid just spouting off the truth to Horace and the rest of the idiots was Sayid throwing up his hands and saying "Fuck IT!! I yam who I yam!!".
Sayid has simply given up resisting destiny. The question is...
Where is he running off to after he shot lil Ben Linus? -
And, as a former flashback-centric hater, I quite enjoyed the the return to "classic" flashback scenes of Sayid as a boy and with the bounty hunter.
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Who has more power?...The Dali Lama...Or the guy who gets to PICK the Dali Lama?
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It's not a question of whether it happened or not. The question is whether the Losties involvement in it had already been determined by the time they crashed on the island in the first place (in their timeline).
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just re-watched season 2 and man was she awful... so glad they killed her... i miss mr echo
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Is no. The FILM they watch in 2004 tells us "the Incident" happened circa 1980. The Losties didn't go back in time til 2007. So, since they hadn't gone back in time yet...none of them had anything to do with it.
But that's not to say they WON'T have anything to do with it, now that they are present at the time period "the Incident" happened.
In other words...they can change/mess with the past all they want...but it does not affect the final outcome.
Also...there IS NO alternate 2004 timeline...the timeline is ONE line. In 2004...the Losties had NO IDEA they would ever wind up back in 1977. The Losties "2004 timeline" you mention is the same as Horace & Amy's & Chang's timeline in 1977. -
But...Ana had her moments.
I forget which idiot I was arguing with...Ahhh...It was Il Duece. He kept saying that the way Ilana said "Jarrah" so 'sexily' right after Sayid vanished off 316. He theorized that they HAD to have "gotten it on" the night before the 316 flight. I told him he was fulla shit.
Damn if I didn't almost have to buy Duece a beer last night!
So...was that the same bar Jack was was having a drink in before the 316 flight? Remember the one with the girl they seemed to 'linger' on a lil too long in the premiere? -
What would i like left open and what would i like cleared up. Is the smoked monster done with i mean we all know its a security system and like all security system it has a pin code/key to enable or disable.
Its pretty clear no matter what they do they won't cover all the bases so it's a given that there will always be something to talk about with lost.
I would like them to end it with everything covered bar maybe one new twist just to say a big thank you and fuck you at the same time :)
Then maybe start a spin off called Found!
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Ben would have no memory of the Losties until they went back in time. The "List" had nothing to do with them. Now he may be acting like he knew it all along because he suddenly has memories of it but those memories did not exist when he first encountered them in 2004. I don't buy it. They've already had Charlotte and Alpert say things would happen before they happened. If it turns out the skeletons with the white and black stones are Losties, would they not be Losties until 2007 when they went back in time? And what is this alternate 2004 timeline you think I mentioned? I know there's one timeline in Lost.
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Test.Test.Test.
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And Lost rocks.A lot.
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and whoever else, I'm not banned
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They just removed my posts. What does that tell you?
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It's possible Ben got some help from Mr. In Between Worlds.
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I dunno...why'd they delete your posts?
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Mar 26, 2009 11:37:36 PM CDT
FORMAL APOLOGY TO EVERYONE -no Spoilers inside guaranteed :)
by billboefett
I apologize for not posting my spoilers more carefully. I was tired and hit space in the wrong places and didn't get the paragraph indentations I was hoping. I was sloppy and careless, blinded by my excitement over the new ideas. I sincerely, sincerely apologize. Once the posts are up, thats it, right?
So if anyone saw the first few lines and didn't mean to, here's the things that spoiler theory did NOT answer: Who/what is Smokie... who/what is Jacob.. what the whispers are, what happened with the black rock, who Ben is, really, what's going on between him and Widmore, what's going on with Walt and his powers, what the island is, and why the main characters had to return/possibly stay on the island to avoid some world crisis. That's a TON of stuff, and awesome as hell. -
Whatever you DID type pissed people off big time...and pretty much made them NOT CARE about care about the rest of the mysteries you just rattled off.
If you hadn't noticed, Billboe...I am from the future...I tried to warn you about posting spoilers...that they were going to get you into trouble. I'm just glad I bailed on the TB BEFORE I had a chance to read your post. -
I saw the cat twice!
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Kingoflight, I think we will get answers on Smokie, the statue, the black rock, the war etc. But don't think we will ever get a definite answer on what the island is or how did it come to be.
But think the island will be fundamental as being the origin for many mysteries and legends throughout history, i.e. Atlantis, garden of Eden.
In ponderings for what the island is or who made it I am going with "VALIS". -
The Dalai Lama is a lineage of religious leader of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism and was the political leader of Lhasa-based Tibetan government between the 17th century and 1959. Referred to by his followers simply as "His Holiness" (HH), or "His Holiness The Dalai Lama", many Tibetans usually call the Dalai Lama by the epithets Gyalwa Rinpoche, meaning "Precious Victor", or Yishin Norbu, meaning "Wish-fulfilling Jewel." "Lama" (meaning "teacher") is a title given to many different ranks of Tibetan Buddhist clergy.
The Dalai Lama is believed to be the current incarnation of a long line of Tulkus, or Buddhist Masters, who have become exempt from the wheel of death and rebirth. These ascended masters have chosen of their own free will to be reborn to this place in order to enlighten others. He is also the official leader of the Tibetan government-in-exile, or the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA).
Between the 17th century and 1959, the lines of Dalai Lamas were the head of the Tibetan Government, administering a large portion of the area from the capital Lhasa, although the extent of the lineage's political authority and rulership over territory has been contested. Since 1959, the Dalai Lama has presided over the Central Tibetan Administration, which is based in Dharamshala, a small town in the foothills of the Himalayas in northern India, considering itself to be a government in exile. The Dalai Lama is often thought to be the head of the Gelug School, but this position officially belongs to the Ganden Tripa, which is a temporary position appointed by the Dalai Lama (who in practice exerts more influence).
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The search for the 14th Dalai Lama took the High Lamas to Taktser in Amdo Palden Lhamo, the female guardian spirit of the sacred lake, Lhamo La-tso, who promised Gendun Drup the 1st Dalai Lama in one of his visions that "she would protect the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai Lamas"In the Himalayan tradition, phowa (Tibetan) is the discipline that transfers the mindstream to the intended body. Upon the death of the Dalai Lama and consultation with the Nechung Oracle, a search for the Lama's reincarnation, or yangsi (yang srid), is conducted. Traditionally it has been the responsibility of the High Lamas of the Gelugpa Tradition and the Tibetan government to find his reincarnation. The process can take around two or three years to identify the Dalai Lama, and for the 14th Tenzin Gyatso it was four years before he was found. The search for the Dalai Lama has usually been limited historically to Tibet, although the third tulku was born in Mongolia. Tenzin Gyatso, though, has stated that there is a chance that he will not be reborn although if he is reborn it will not be in a country run by the People's Republic of China.[14]
The High Lamas used several ways in which they can increase the chances of finding the reincarnation. High Lamas often visit the holy lake, called Lhamo La-tso, in central Tibet and watch for a sign from the lake itself. This may be either a vision or some indication of the direction in which to search and this was how Tenzin Gyatso was found. It is said that Palden Lhamo, the female guardian spirit of the sacred lake, Lhamo La-tso, promised Gendun Drup, the 1st Dalai Lama in one of his visions "that she would protect the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai Lamas." Ever since the time of Gendun Gyatso, the 2nd Dalai Lama, who formalised the system, the Regents and other monks have gone to the lake to seek guidance on choosing the next reincarnation through visions while meditating there.[15]
The particular form of Palden Lhamo at Lhamo La-tso is Gyelmo Maksorma, "The Victorious One who Turns Back Enemies". The lake is sometimes referred to as "Pelden Lhamo Kalideva", which indicates that Palden Lhamo is an emanation of the goddess Kali, the shakti of the Hindu god Śiva.[16]
"Lhamo Latso ... [is] a brilliant azure jewel set in a ring of grey mountains. The elevation and the surrounding peaks combine to give it a highly changeable climate, and the continuous passage of cloud and wind creates a constantly moving pattern on the surface of the waters. On that surface visions appear to those who seek them in the right frame of mind."[17]
It was here that in 1935, the Regent, Reting Rinpoche, received a clear vision of three Tibetan letters and of a monastery with a jade-green and gold roof, and a house with turquoise roof tiles, which led to the discovery of Tenzin Gyatso, the present 14th Dalai Lama.[18][19][20]
High Lamas may also have a vision in a dream or if the Dalai Lama was cremated, they will often monitor the direction of the smoke as an indication of the direction of the rebirth.[14]
Once the High Lamas have found the home and the boy they believe to be the reincarnation, the boy undergoes a series of tests to affirm the rebirth. They present a number of artifacts belonging to the previous Dalai Lama and if the boy chooses the items which belonged to the previous Dalai Lama, this is seen as a sign, in conjunction with all of the other indications, that the boy is the reincarnation. If there is only one boy found, the High Lamas will invite Living Buddhas of the three great monasteries together with secular clergy and monk officials, to confirm their findings and will then report to the Central Government through the Minister of Tibet. Later a group consisting of the three major servants of Dalai Lama, eminent officials and troops will collect the boy and his family and travel to Lhasa, where the boy would be taken, usually to Drepung Monastery to study the Buddhist sutra in preparation for assuming the role of spiritual leader of Tibet.[14]
However, if there are several possibilities of the reincarnation, in the past regents and eminent officials and monks at the Jokhang in Lhasa, and the Minister to Tibet would decide on the individual by placing the boys names inside an urn and drawing one lot in public if it was too difficult to judge the reincarnation initially.[21]
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Mar 26, 2009 11:56:55 PM CDT
Im guessing that maybe Darlton was refering to
by 4we8have15to16go23back42
the High Lama, not Paca Lama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama -
Don't feel bad, During last summer I reposted the same message over a hundred times in order to make the top ten and get people to visit the talkback and got all my previous posts erased just like you did. ACIN is very random on how & who they punish.
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So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking.
So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga.
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
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Copying and pasting from other sites is FUN!
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Well, Darlton have somewhat expressed that they are interested in doing a movie after the series, so even if we don't get all the answers there's still hope of a Movie and that cold effectively tie everything up in a nice pretty Bow.
As Much of a completest I am, I'd forgive LOST if everything wasn't answered and leave a few things open. But I'd be mighty pissed if certain things weren't explained to me like if I was a 5yr. old.(i.e. Kara Thrace, WTF!? -sorry) -
of Michael running around shouting *WAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!*
They could have advanced the story and just once and awhile have Michael run across the background shouting *WAAAAAAAAAAAALT!*.
Not interacting with anyone.
Just running hither and yon, shouting -
Mar 27, 2009 12:46:07 AM CDT
Its interesting the world's perception of Dalai Lama
by miyamoto_musashi
In general we don't seem to be fans of people claiming to be "chosen by god", to then become the dictator of those people. i.e. royalty
But that is what the Dalai Lama.
Thankfully the Others/Hostiles seem to be more objective and thoughtful in their decisions. -
wheres the love been lately? I don't know how to make this sound pleasant and soft and friendly, but you've been kinda course and a little on the mean/grumpy/irritable side with not just me, but tons of people. What gives dude? Please don't lash back all flaming and yelling and stuff dude.
I miss the kinder, gentler Cheif. :( -
I think you live on an alternate timeline.
My understanding is that Darlton have come out and said there will NEVER be a LOST movie after the series. Pa can back me up with the source and exact quote...
But I think JJ 'joked' one time that LOST could possibly take a 'big screen' turn...but Darlton decided that was ludicris. They said LOST has a beginning...a middle and an end....and it will ALL unfold on TV. Citing it would NOT be fair to the viewers to end LOST's run (on TV) with a cliffhanger...that doesn't get wrapped up for 2 years while the 'big screen' finale is made.
The boys are going to want to move on to other things after Season 6...Like..."Star Tr2k". -
You were saying?
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Mar 27, 2009 12:53:21 AM CDT
Cheif how are you going with staying spoiler free ?
by miyamoto_musashi
I was contemplating doing it this season, and am really thinking about doing it next season.
What I can't see is how I can join a conversation about a previous night's episode (like this TB) without being exposed to some spoiler. -
Never mind then, last time I heard about that, they did seem interested. But now that you mention it, I remember something along those lines of "not being fair".
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but I know what happened to Faraday. The same thing that happened to Desmond in season 4, brother. Remember when his consciousness kept going back and forth through time? Well, remember at the end of the episode, when Faraday had written in his notebook, "If I need it, Desmond will be MY constant"? Well, Faraday is stuck in a time warp. And, Desmond has to come back to the island to save him. Which is why Eloise Hawking said the island wasn't done with him, yet.
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"Previously on Lost" goes for about 90 minutes, then we get into the movie
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I used to LOVE spoiling my friends at work who were only 'casual' LOST viewers (i.e., NOT obsessed). Telling them things like "Shannon dies tonight"...gave me such a sweet thrill back in the day.
Since then, I have started just enjoying the ride...like I did back in Season 1, before I knew that LOST had become such a phenom on the interwebs. Especially during the 'vamping' they were doing early in Season 3...it's like I wanted them to HURRY THE FUCK UP...so I was ravenous for spoilers...searching high and low.
But once they got the End Date set with ABC...and Darlton kicked the story into overdrive...I've found NOT knowing what's 'around the bend' to make each episode so much more enjoyable....just like Season 1.
How am I doing this season?..so far, so good...Hit a snag early on when I read the full contents of a pilfered LOST shooting/cast list...that told me Sawyer was gonna see Kate helping Claire giving birth to Aaron...and the 'young Rousseau' casting. But they have now passed those moments up...so I'm as LOST as the characters are....Just like Season 1.
I just have to watch out while reading these talkbacks...being careful to heed anything that has SPOILER in the subject line. I actually read a post the other day by holding my hand against the screen COVERING a spoiler post that was just above it! If people start talkin spoilers here...I check out. Take a break and leave the page until it dies down.
But I seriously recommend you try it. It makes watching LOST a thrill ride again.
Like Season 1. -
Sayid shot him in the kidney like Locke. I bet Juliet and Jack will be forced to work for Ben again. This explains why in the future, Ben has his problems and why he needs Jack to work on him.
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Will take your advice and give it a go.
Like the image of holding your hand against the screen to avoid spoilers, seems very natural and interesting. Also goes with my view the are all kids, some with more experience that others.
My nature is to be inquisitive, when I was a kid trying to work out what my parents had bought me for Christmas, but just like then, looking at spoilers does reduce the impact of the moment, when it does happen. -
Me & Miyamoto just had a nice exchange. Was that 'sweet' enough for ya? Lol!!
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I back up CB on what he said about the movie, it was in a podcast sometime. To lazy & tired to look it up.
As for spoilers I love them. Its actually adds to my viewing enjoyment. (I know Im a freak.) But I try to use discretion. Can;t say Im perfect in fact I screwed up in chat last night (Sorry if your reading this) but I respect those that do try to stay spoiler free and try to help them remain so. Thats why I put buttons in at Room 23. Actually I respect you unless that means that you stay away from talkback over the long break because of it, then I hate you. We had to many of those types last long break and the talkback practically died. -
Im going to bed to hopefully dream about Claire's return to the island. See you in another life Brother.
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He didn't get hit in the kidney. He was shot in the chest.
Now...if you want to argue he doesn't have a heart...I'll entertain THAT idea. -
lockesbroken leg said that Ben won't die because he got hit in the kidney like Locke.
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Ben shot through the gut -> bullet lodged in the spine -> tumor
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will find the injured Ben. Or Jack and Juliet will be forced to operate on him again.
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Build a time-machine/building on Jan 1 2010. Expect a visitor. On Jan 2, use time machine to travel to Jan 1. According to David Deutsch (physicist guy) the visitor you receive on Jan 1 is NOT you. When you travel to Jan 1 to Jan 2, the person you visit is NOT you either. Time travel is not really 'time travel' so much as extra-dimensional travel. Real time travel is like knowing the position and momentum of a quantum particle, or a universal theorem tester. Impossible in principle.
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involves a closed time-like loop. They, I think, show up in answers to equations in GR and SR, but (admittedly, like black holes at first), they are of a nature that suggests they are non-sensible answers. They violate causality on a non-quantum level, and creation of information (read as matter/energy) from nothing.
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what I'm talking about.
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I dunno. Even if a physicist did say it, I still don't agree. If I build a time machine on Dec. 21, 2012 and come back in time to tomorrow night, I expect I should see myself tomorrow night. Because, if the past is written, then the future is written. And, the present was written because it's some other time's past or future. And, just b/c WE have the uncertainty principle doesn't mean there really IS an uncertainty principle since all principles and theorems are mathematical abstractions of what you lower beings call reality. I call it actuality. Mostly because I'm under endorsement from TRU tv. But, to each his own. Maybe Deutsch is right.
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Insomnia's a bitch, btw. :)
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If Jack and Juliet are operating, but like the theory that the bullet eventually leads to the tumour 20+ years later.
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I have difficulty believing any of the Dharma characters we've seen, except for Pierre Chang, have the smarts to do any of the scientific research that takes place. Horace has been thrust into the role of leader and doesn't seem prepared to handle it; the rest of them are just dumb security guards, janitors, or baby incubators. They obviously lack a doctor, forcing Juliet to jump back from being a wrench to an OB. I hope we get to meet Chang's colleagues because this crew is just a bunch of hippies in jumpsuits.
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Season 4 = 15
Season 5 = 17
Season 6 = 17 -
The Writers strike messed up last season so we got an extra episode each season.
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I didn't read everything since my last post, but a couple of things that intrigued me. Is Ben the way he is because of Sayid or himself?
A few years ago in a LOST discussion I made a point that we are who we are because of the choices we've made. I've ammended that since to include not only the choices we made but choices others made that affected or effected or lives. So this discussion could be a very big one to come.
Did Ben do this to himself? How could he? He's just a kid thrust into somewhere he has no desire to be with a less than simpathetic father that blames him. None of those were choices he made, but they have already effected his behavior. Would he have delivered a sandwich to Sayid if he was happy? No. So choices made for him have made him choose badly.
But it was his choice to rescue Sayid with the burning van diversion. And now little Ben has been shot due to this choice. We know how Ben is now, they lying bug-eyed bastard. To what affect did this decision determine his choices to become who he is now?
Seems to me my original observation came during season 2. So maybe things really are mirroring themselves. -
It's funny, but I caught that Radzinski said to Horace: "Hey know's what we're calling the Swan station? We haven't even built it yet!"
However in last week's "La Fleur" Episode, Marvin Candle's wearing a lab coat with the Swan station logo on it. -
should be "Hey, he knows..." der
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You may now go back to discussing Lost.
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maybe while the station itself wasnt yet built, there was already a division of dharma named the swan? or of course, it might just be a mistake..its happened before.
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That Walt burnt up the Losties first raft on the island...and Ben burnt up the first VW Dharma van and a barracks house?
Gimme some EVIL Walt before this is over! -
It's not too much of a stretch to think the logo was designed before it was built. It's actually very plausible.
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Just thought it was odd. But I wonder what it was being built for then? I thought the Swan's sole purpose was to keep the electromagnetism from building up? So, has the incident happened yet?
I wonder what the division is initially going to be researching? -
The Incident has NOT happened yet. I think the Swan won't really be researching ANYTHING. But it will serve 2 purposes.
1. Releasing pent up electromagnetic energy every 108 minutes.
2. Study if idiots will faithfully push a button every 108 minutes. -
Why is Radzinski so afraid the Hostiles will 'steal' their idea for the Swan? "He saw the blueprints! He knows the NAME!!"...
Why the huge pissy fit, dude? It's not like the Hostiles are highly funded and could potentially build their OWN Swan hatch based on YOUR model, right? Just cuz they may now know what it 'looks like' and what they named it...doesn't mean the Hostiles know exactly what you plan to DO with it...
Or...do they? -
Maybe spoilers, but only if speculations come true:
The only thing I can come up with offhand that emits electro-magnetic energy in the amounts that we've seen previously is an atomic bomb. Perhaps Dharma has found this bomb on the verge of (or in the state of) exploding, and using the strange time properties of the island have kept the bomb itself in a bit of a time loop (ala Clive Barker's Great and Secret Show). But really it's anyone's guess. There's no conclusive evidence either way. -
Mar 27, 2009 11:13:41 AM CDT
I have a gut feeling that the "incident" will involve...
by ccchhhrrriiisssm
...the "Jughead" bomb...somehow causing a time jump itself.
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...your comments regarding Ben’s gunshot injury and the subsequent spinal tumor are in line with what I posted here a little while back. It’s an interesting way to pursue the tragedy of Sayid’s character being forever tied to Ben--- though I still hated to see Sayid go “evil” this week.
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What I got from that comment is that the DI was building that station without the Hostiles knowing about it. Probably building it in the location that they choose and for the choosen purpose was against the treaty. Maybe to be used as some sort of weapon against the Hostiles. Look how we are currently freaking out about North Korea lauching something that could hit Alaska. They were probably worried that if the Hostiles found out they would try to destroy it. We already know from the premiere that the DI was using the Aarow to observe the Hostiles in a manner that was less then inocent. Aslo that eventually the DI would build the Tempist which they might have had the plan to wipe out the Hostiles. (Unfortunatly Ben turned the tables on that idea) So my guess and its just that is that they weren't worried about the Hostiles using the Swan, but more destroying it/stopping it from being made?
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...which instructed Michael to bring Hurley, Jack, Kate and Sawyer to the "Others." What was it for? Jack: Ben needed spinal surgery Hurley: To tell the survivors not to cross the line or come looking for Jack & Co. Kate: She might be pregnant...or could become pregnant for purposes of experiments (and, thus, the nice dress). Sawyer? I have no idea whatsoever. Anyone else have a clue?
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Did anyone notice the creepy actor who portrayed "Oldham" in Wednesday's episode? He is the weird guy who was trying to force Sayid to share his secrets. Well, he is the same actor who portrayed the toymaker in BLADE RUNNER...and he played the role of Larry on NEWHART (...of "Hi, my name is Larry and this is my brother Daryl, and this is my other brother Daryl" fame). A good, creepy portrayal.
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and Lost is Lost again. It didn't seem the same show without them. Fuck the people who say they're a waste of time.
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Kate & Sawyer were both there to influence Jack to operate. Ben knew that Kate like both Jack & Sawyer and that if he used Pickett to put Sawyers life in danger that Kate would plead with Jack to operate. Also that Kate & Sawyer would manage to have sex and that he (Ben) would allow Jack door to be left open so that he could see it. Ben knew then perfectly and exactly how to play them off of each other.
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The list that was handed to Michael with the four losties names on it is not "The List." The list that the woman handed Michael was just a list of names of people that Ben could use to manipulate Jack into performing the surgery. Hurley was brought in to tell the other Losties that the Others had Jack, Kate, and Sawyer and not to come looking for them. Jack, obviously, was needed for the surgery. Kate and Sawyer were needed to blackmail Jack into doing the surgery. If I'm not mistaken, it was made VERY CLEAR that Kate, Sawyer, and Jack were NOT on "The List." They were never deemed worthy of being Others. The only people on "The List," or Jacob's list were in the tail section of the plane. Ben did say that Locke was on Jacob's list but who knows if that's true or not. The point is, the list given to Michael was not "The List" that the Others referred to over and over. I do recall at least one instance where Ben told Jack specifically that he was not on the list.
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"The time travel they are using is 12 monkeys time travel, not back to the future time travel"Not true. They have already deliberately established that it is Back to the Future time travel. Specifically, for example, Desmond did not remember Faraday's request that he seek out his mother until Faraday actually made it in the past.
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Why didn't Sayid snap Lil' Ben's neck after shooting him? Why leave "any" chance that he'll survive? A trained killer should know better.
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That has puzzled me for quite a while. As far as the type of time travel theories that they are using, I have a feeling that they are heeding to the "Grandfather paradox" (is this the "rules" that Ben mentioned to Widmore?) -- but they have made it clear that "the rules don't apply to Desmond." Like others, I am beginning to think that Desmond is "the key" that can "make his own kind of music." In other words, Desmond can change time to an extent. Remember the owner of the pub? Desmond took the cricket bat to the head in the place of the owner. In the end, will Desmond play a quasi-redeemer...and take upon himself the fate of those on the island? BTW, this talkback rocks! LOST talkbacks always tend to bring out the best and the brightest of AICN people.
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Blame it on Locke! Remember the iconic image of the light coming from the hatch during Season 1 (the night that Boone died)? Locke was pounding upon the hatch because of Boone's death. Ironically, this pounding actually prevented Desmond from blowing his own brains out. Locke might have actually (and unwittingly) changed what was "supposed" to happen. Remember, Eloise Hawking told Desmond (in Flashes Before Your Eyes) that Desmond would never end up with Penny...would never make a life for them...and that the greatest thing in his life that he would accomplish was "pushing that button." Yet Desmond did meet Penny. Desmond did make a life for themselves. Could Desmond possibly accomplish something greater than pushing a button...because he lived because of Locke's hatch pounding? Good stuff. I wonder if the ultimate tragedy spoken of by the writers is that they will all be alive due to some act of sacrifice on Desmond's part...but that they will never have gotten to know one another?
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Like Dr. No.
He lives!!! -
Your idea is possible, but I'm of the opinion we're squarely in 12 Monkey territory. Desmond always had that memory--he just didn't remember it until that particular moment. The only connection is that that scene was shown immediately following the Faraday-knocking-on-the-hatch scene for narrative purposes. I think a lot of people have attributed Desmond's "new" memory to Faraday "just" knocking on the hatch, but I don't think that's what was intended. I feel like Dr. Evil with all those scare quotes. "Laser."
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Totally agree with you. Desmond's being prepped for something big ("That's why they call it a sacrifice."). There's a reason he walked around for a full season looking like Jesus and spoutin' prophecy. And I don't think the "greatest thing in his life" necessarily meant pushing the button--I think that was just a step along the way.
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I wonder how many people tuned in to the last few moments only to see a guy gunning down a 10-year-old kid in the dark roadway. I like to think that it timed up with a commercial in American Idol and a few thousand channel-surfing pre-teens switched over right at that moment.
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Since that was in 2004 and we are now back in 1977, maybe it's because Jack, Hurley Sawyer and Kate were all in Dharma in 77. He was just calling them back in 2004.
...maybe..... -
On the `previously`on Lost bit,we see a young Ben talking to Richard.I don't ever recall seeing that,as I thought last weeks episode was the first time we'd ever seen young Ben-what episode was that in???
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Desmond is following rules, just slightly different rules, I suppose you could say.
Think of it this way: It's like soccer. In soccer no one can use their hands except the goalie. Desmond is like the goalie in that the rules allow him an extra ability. This does not make him a "super hero" it just has him in a different position than the other players. -
It tells about how Ben and Roger got to the island.
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That was from "The Man Behind the Curtain", in season 3. Same episode he shot Locke and left him for dead.
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Cheers mate:)
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was "Man Behind the Curtain" back in season 3, when Locke hears Jacob's voice in the cabin. It's Ben's backstory to how he started on the island, Dharma, etc. He did something to his dad---you don't remember him seeing Richard in the forest? His mom? I'm not going to spoil anymore. Jog your memory or go watch it :)
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We haven't seen him for a while and I miss that Scottish bastard.Bring him back soon please, Lost writers.
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see ya in another life
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For me... LOST ≥ BSG > Dr. Who > Dexter > Heroes Anyone else?
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Like your top four, but I think you could slot a WHOLE lot of TV in between Dex and Heroes.
Lost ranks for me as the best show currently on television. I'm one of those that feel like it hasn't missed a major beat since day one. -
LOST>Dexter>Supernatural>Eastbound & Down>Burn Notice>NCIS>Eureka
BSG would be there but it's over now, so I no longer count it. -
... seems to be that the island won't allow one to come into physical contact with a prior version of themselves (travelling consciousness doesn't count, in this regard). This allows the writers to avoid one of the ongoing "questions" about such things, and also explains why old Ben likely won't be able to time travel with Sun and Lapidus. It's even possible that Ben knew this, and "allowed" Sun to best him. It *doesn't* fully explain why Ben, Sun and Lapidus were moved to the future, though. I'm becoming more and more curious as to "when" they exactly are. Has the "end of the world" already taken place, perhaps?
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http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/
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AGREED! I just placed Heroes at a place of order...not to indicate that it was ranked above other shows like Supernatural or even Fringe.
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In the Orchid Comic-Con video I believe that Candle screamed to his assistants to not let the time treaveling bunny to come in contact with its past self. So your probably correct.
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Locke was allowed to flash to 2004 and be very close to his former self when the hatch light came on. Sawyer was there witnessing Claire and Kate, where younger Sawyer was on the beach.
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I'm going to get myself a frozen donkey wheel and go back in time to make sure no one ever makes a movie called "Twelve Monkeys". LOL
Anyway I think we're missing the biggest thing about the Swan. It's that they were building it in that location because that wheel and whatever was around it was there already. They wanted access to it. Meaning they knew what it was, and that it was there in the first place. I'm going to go ahead and guess that's what really ends that truce that they supposedly have. The hostiles must have known about it. And when they mess with it, all hell breaks loose. So the real question, I think, is 'what is that wheel?' -
Although I think we don't know enough about the Swan yet either.
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like they shot their grandfather. What then? Because I don't think Ben's "rules" are scientific. I think they're more like game rules or biblical laws. Because Keamy killing Alex didn't do anything drastic to anyone but Ben, if that. Man, I miss Keamy.
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with all the time travel discussions (12 Monkeys vs. Back to the Future). I mean, it's pretty cool that a show can inspire that kind of speculation. Wouldn't be nearly as interesting if we knew precisely how everything fit together. That's Lost.
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... you make a good point. This is one reason that the concept of the island (as used by the "Lost" writers) is rather brilliant. The island won't "let" certain rules be broken, so we won't need to deal with certain issues. Until next season, at least.
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Yeah...they came 'close' to their former selves...but no contact. BTW...Sawyer was the same age as the Sawyer on the beach...The one on the beach wasn't any 'younger'.
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now I confused myself. Which one was Daniel in? The Orchid? Oh crap now I don't know when that was. LOL. I have to stop. I can't handle this show.
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... which makes it pretty interesting to know that Locke understood--- on some level--- that he needed to stay away. He didn't even explain the situation to Sawyer.
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Sorry about my absence. It has been a rough week. You all probably know why so I won't rehash it - still too painful.
I don't want to say this was a bad Lost episode because held up to other dren on TV it is still great stuff. But Lost has a standard now that is sky high and sooner or later we'd get an ordinary eppy. The Sayid-Fest got a little dis interesting, at least til the end. Though I saw that coming a mile away.
But mainly I wanted to give a shout to the best crew on the site - The Room 23 crew. Love you guys and gals. -
Well, Sawyer was on the other side of the island of his past-self and the flash itself didn't last that long, as I recall. And Locke is the Chosen One, so he could be trusted to not eff stuff up as well. But Ben not going back isn't because there's a younger version of Ben in '77...because there are younger versions of everybody else (or mostly everybody else, if they'd been born by that year) out in the 'real world'. I'm gonna' have to go with the theory of the Island/Jacob/Fate/Destiny being able to control where everybody needs to be and sent the appropriate people back to '77 while leaving others in the present (and maybe others elsewhere...Rose and Bernard are Adam and Even, I'm pretty sure of it), so that the timeline could be set right with what is/was supposed to happen. I heard someone make the analogy to the situation on Lost as this--something happened, most likely the Incident or something similar, frozen donkey wheel pushing, I don't know, but SOMETHING happened that has caused a literal tear in the space/time continuum, and the Island/Jacob/Fate/Destiny is using the Losties to 'sew up' that hole, guiding them not only through these events we're seeing but has been guiding them through most of their lives to build them into the people it needs for it's purposes, to fix space/time set causality right again. Also, I don't think the Swan is anywhere near the frozen donkey wheel, guys; at the beginning of the season, they're digging for the Orchid, which Ben also uses to access the wheel, which is right by the well Locke uses. BUT we have no idea when the first scene this season takes place; the Orchid could also be built after all the Losties get there, heck, that scene might even take place near the end of the season. In which case, I'm totally agreed with your theory, Cherry. And indeed, what the hell is that wheel? It always makes me think about the Atlantis or Mystical Egyptian angles that have been thrown around. Hurmmm...
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(aside from Des, of course)...If you go back and snap yer Granddaddy's neck...run him over with a car...put him in a wood chipper...then blast his remains into deep space...You STILL get born.
Cuz your Grandma's a whore and sleeps around pretty good after Grandpa dies. She STILL gives birth to your retarded Dad...who meets your alcoholic Mom who gives birth to your dumb ass.
It's called 'course correction'.
Now...if you kill BOTH yer grandparents at the same time...You're a sadistic little prick then, aren't you? -
"SOMETHING happened that has caused a literal tear in the space/time continuum, and the Island/Jacob/Fate/Destiny is using the Losties to 'sew up' that hole, guiding them not only through these events we're seeing but has been guiding them ... to fix space/time set causality right again."Strikingly similar to "Donnie Darko".
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Ben changes all the Oceanic people every day. Why dont they fuck with Ben? Fuck Faraday.
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BTW, the Sawyer on the beach when Sawyer sees Kate in the jungle IS younger. The 'you' from 75 days ago is younger than the 'you' from today, right?
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VERY good comparison. And both are wonderfully complex stories that make the viewer actually think. Great minds think alike, and all that.
Also, I was just rewatching S5E1, and Dr. Chang ALSO says there are 'rules' for dealing with the foreign matter they find, ie time travel. So maybe Farraday isn't just making this shit up. Hmm? -
Hope you are doing ok, dude. Sure miss ya around here.
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I wonder how much of Richard Kelly's "Darko" theory could apply to "Lost". I mean, we definitely have the Manipulated Dead (Christian); possibly the Manipulated Living (Ms. Hawking seems a likely candidate). And the experts in time travel in both (Faraday and Roberta Sparrow) are both a little loopy. And how about this: when we first see Faraday, crying in front of the TV, that's eerily similar to the end of "Darko" when Donnie is laughing in bed, knowing everything that has happened/would have happened.
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I sure miss you around here, its just not the same.
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75 DAYS younger...I was thinking Billboe thought he might be 'years' younger or something.
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Didn't mean to be a dick or anything. :)
Trumpy, I like this theory more and more. I'm gonna have to go watch Donnie Darko again and try to find any other similarities. -
It's one thing for people to speculate and correct others. That's all fine. But you've been acting like you run these talkbacks for a while. I don't know why you think you're the authority on this stuff. But you've been acting really obnoxious. Get over yourself.
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That time travel can only happen in the movies and on TV. Because it's impossible, in the current universe we inhabit. Running into yourself is impossible because we can't occupy two spaces at the same time. I'm sure this has been asked before...but if one were to go back in time, shouldn't they age backwards accordingly? If you travel back one year, shouldn't your physical body age backwards at the same time? Because to remain the same age you are, but go back a year, would require you to remove yourself from the laws of nature and the universe around you.It's like rewinding a tape, or jumping back a scene on a DVD. You won't have a scene three character doing a scene three thing in scene one. ok, it's late and I'm talking out of my ass and no one's going to read this anyway.Anyone want a beer?
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BTTF, 12 Monkeys (Cherry's fav!) and Donnie Darko. BTW.. absolutely LOVE Darko. Blew me away when I saw it. It's a shame how the marketing totally killed it. The tv spots made it look like a teen slasher film, kept showing him holding that knife, then it cuts to him walking up to his sleeping sister (implying he's going to stab her or whatever). So.. basically all the loopy dimwits who just go and waste money on mindless teen slasher flicks expecting trash...saw Donnie Darko, an intelligent thinking person's moody poetic scifi movie, and they HATED it. And the people that would've loved it, missed it, because they didn't know that's what it was going to be. For me, fortunately, I was hanging out in the AICN chatrooms for LOTR discussion and everyone kept saying "donnie darko!" this, darko that, etc. so I actually went out and bought it, sight unseen (rarely do that) and I was, again, blown away. One of my favorite movies, top 10, easily. So yeah, this is a LOST chat, but I love the inevitability of the destiny in Darko, as well as 12 monkeys
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Mar 28, 2009 1:38:22 AM CDT
my take on time travel -literally, not in a fantasy universe lik
by billboefett
I think it will always be impossible for human kind to time travel. In order for a physical living body to transpire the time-space-mass continuum, they'd have to absolve themselves of the other 2 traits/dimensions. Basically, to move around inside and within time, you have to be able to exist outside of time. A physical body must occupy a physical space, which requires a place and a time, not all places and all times. They say you'd have to go faster than the speed of light and then time would start slowing down--time's arrow and all that. 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics, matter is now neither being created nor destroyed, just repurposed or made less usable. Heat transferance. Basically, you'd have to leave your body and disintegrate into non-physicalness to jump around in time. You'd be dead. You'd either have to meet God first, or, have the properties of God in order to pull it off: you'd have to be in all places at all times, omnipresent, unchangeable, so its still you traveling in time and not a copy of you or someone else, and I guess if you were already pulling those things off you'd be omnipotent, all powerful, and omniscient, all-knowing. So you'd be God himself. Yeah, that was long-winded, lacked TONS of support and evidence and explanation, but oh well. Hope you got the jist. :)
I guess the word I am looking for is "transcendant". You'd transcend different dimensions; matter, space, time, etc. I think Desmond may come off as this type of being; having become this by way of an act of sacrifical love (I love you Penny) and turning the key. -
So...12 Monkeys.. did it prove Bruce Willis, no matter how many times he tried, could not avert the future disaster of the virus... or... that since he as a child witnessed his own death, he could not alter that future.. or both?
I kinda thought the point being made was of the classic grandfather paradox--you go back in time and shoot grandaddy before he sired your father as a son...its impossible, because you would then be unable to come from that son to later go back in time. If Bruce Willis came from a future where the virus was a reality, then halting that virus in the past would therefore pull the rug out from that foundational virus-filled future that he came from. So--the fact that he DID go back in time shows he never stopped the virus? If he succesfully stops the virus by going back into the past, then.. why does he go back into the past if the future has no virus? If B (the virus started in the past) has a certain quality to begat B (the virus-reality future), and then you go from B and modify A significantly, then B changes as well.. and that quality of B, hinging on the quality of A, is then changed, and collapses. It sounds impossible.
Yes, I know, I'm not nuts, this is just a whole different hypothetical angle from the timetravel dimensional God stuff I posted above. -
"If A (the virus started in the past) has a certain quality to begat B (the virus-reality future), and then you go from B and modify A significantly, then B changes as well.. and that quality of B, hinging on the quality of A, is then changed, and collapses. It sounds impossible."
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Its like sending that text message or leaving that voice message that you can never take back-dammit!
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If the future is written, like a script, and if said "players" modify their individual scripts, the future just course-corrects, modifies its own script to compensate for the individually modified scripts in order for the final result to be the same outcome. Multiply that by a bazillion people and a bazillion choices made each and every day to get an idea of the scale of not just chaos theory but course correction. time for bed
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Alot of this sounds faintly familiar to the Calvinist/Arminian debate over predestination, providence, election, Sovereignty, and free will. Tulip. John Calvin, Jacob Arminius, most recently, Martin Luther vs. Erasmus before them, and St. Augustine vs. Pelagius before them. Maybe Paul and the Epicureans and Stoics on Mars Hill before then, and Job vs. God before then.
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It took me ALL fuckin nite...but...I finally got over myself.
Thank you for setting me straight.
I hope you realize in my post...that when I used the word YOU in my post, I meant it in the 'universal' YOU, right? As in "Ya'll". I wasn't specifically talking about YOUR retarded Dad...or alchoholic Mom...I was speaking in the 'universal' EVERYONE'S whore Grandma and idiot Grandpa....singling you out in ANY way. I'm sorry...I should have used your word..."someone"...which is totally less acusitory.
Let me close that last sentence the PROPER way:
Now...if SOMEONE kills BOTH yer grandparents at the same time...SOMEONE'S a sadistic little prick then, aren't THEY?
There ya go, Cherry...I'll shut up now...and let SOMEONE else be the 'authority' in this talkback.
Again...thanks for settin me straight! ;)
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that would take you back to Desmond and his Determinism. "You can't change it Charlie." It's not completely written but it's mostly written. http://tinyurl.com/r64yx
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Go state, eh guys? What a game last night!
Now back to the Lost TB. -
Once again, since I had no takers the first time: is Kate pregnant or what? If so, this feeds directly into the "no babies" and is probably the direct cause of the Incident. I believe the incident is caused when one of the adult characters in 1977 indadvertently comes into contact with their child self. So, is the baby Juliet, perhaps? Sawyer & Jack are out, obviously. Sayid is not of the proper decent. Hurley...maybe. I know we've met his parents but is it just me or does he not really look like them?
Regardless, I think Juliet or Boone makes the most sense in terms of the way things paralell each other on the show. For instance it would be just like Lost to have the birth of Juliet cause the birthing problems on the island, only to bring her back later to try to fix them. If you think the incident is seperate and has nothing to do with the birth,Boone would also fit here, except for them showing his family in early episodes. Remember that Boone died (a sacrifice demanded by the island)as soon as Aaron popped out. This would again be just like Lost to have the birth of Boone somehow disrupt things and then course correct him back to the island to fix things. Thoughts? -
While we are at it, I think it's pretty obvious that the Swan Station is housing the weapon in the future. For one, it explains why the initiative is able to work in secrecy; the hostiles wouldn't go near the thing after they burried it. Now, whether Dharma knows it is actually a bomb or is just receiving enticing readings from the site is the question. This is why I think the station is not the cause of the incident. It's pretty clear that the one thing that scares the shit out of Candle is two versions of the same thing occupying the same time and space. So, I'd say that's your incident, just a question on who meets themselves. I do believe that Dharma pierces the casing to the weapon while digging and is forced to contain the radiation with the Swan, but I don't see how this alone would qualify as the incident.
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Another obvious candidate for the Incident, possibly the best one. He is not in 1977 yet, but let's give him time. Perhaps the fact that he is conceived in the future and delivered in the past is what causes him to stand out of time. Someone takes him off the island at a young age and there you go. I'm not totally wrapped aroundd time travel, but I think we have already seen that Desmond would not remember any of this until it happens in the past and saving his parents would be a nice sacrificial motivator.
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i'm having a monster lost weekend- my buddy (who is a a big lost fan, but i've never watched with him) and are tearing through some magic brownies, accompanied by lost season 1, maybe 2 if we get steaming, with only occasional breaks for the odd poker game. tell me that's not a way to end spring break!
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I'm having the weirdest weather here in Tampa...Bright sunny day..with 30mph sustained winds and gust up to 50! Then...the fuckin space shuttle just flew over my house and let off a huge sonic boom! I'm startin to feel like the 'The Incident' is happening here!
Speaking of which...I think Sayid causes 'The Incident'. Where was he running off to after he shot lil Linus? The Flame. Where he will try to use the microprocessor to make contact with 'the outside world'. -
Looks up while running through the jungle...and he sees a big red hot air balloon with a huge smiley face on it...He pauses to watch it for a moment...then sees it catch on fire...and plummet to the ground.
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That doesn't happen til 2003! Nevermind!
I think 'how did the REAL Henry Gale die' will be an unsolved mystery. -
in 1977, the year she was born, is very interesting to me. Perhaps her giving birth to someone who's alive in 1977, flashed back from 2007, causes some major time-rip catastrophe.
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remember that Boone's dad died in a car accident with Jack's (soon-to-be) ex-wife. Interesting. Did we ever meet his dad? I don't thinkg so.. could be wrong
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Both Darlton and Michael Emerson have said a few times that we will learn what Ben was doing crossing the island heading towards the Lostie's camp, just before he got caught in Rousseau's trap. I guess they'll revisit it?
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But I doubt Ben would have time to bother burying Henry Gale after learning his identity. I think THAT meeting happened a little before 815 crashed.
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Henry's balloon was 'sponsored' by Widmore...Perhaps Widdy had a homing beacon on that thing? And that's how the freighter folk pinpointed the island?
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If you had to pick one, which one would you pick: 5 minutes to pick Darlton's brain, or 10 minutes with Gregg Nations?
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If so check out Dark ufo's site. The actor has been confirmed. Plus there are some other cool spoilers that just landed.
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That actor was in Mulholland Dr. too if I remember correctly. That's really not what I was thinking at all. Hmmm.... Did you see those pics from this season's finale with the two characters and the flotation device? Hmm....
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Possibly the only way to make some of the time travel talk make sense.
Reading comments like that miss the old university days. -
Am enjoying Lost at the moment, including the time travel aspects. But I wonder how the writers feel knowing that the introduction of time travel into their stories will result in viewers focusing most of their time on time travel aspects rather than other aspects of the story.
Kind of like a naked woman walking through a police station. -
Boone's dad in the crash with Jack's wife. I have seen all the episodes over the years but I'm watching them again now. I feel like there is enough information to make a full viewing worthwhile. That said, after about 5 episodes I just want to laugh at people that say the characters are inconsistently presented. Sure, some of them have evolved but it was through the story not just whimsical changes. People who want to believe the Sawyer/Jack confrontation in 1977 was "out of character" need to watch some actual episodes. Although there is a mutual respect, Sawyer has always tried to one up him and to me his critisism of Jack's shortcomings were fair, if bluntly made.
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yeah, I saw that Jacob picture too. Much younger than I thought we'd see. We know so much more about this show, and yet so many questions remain!
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Geez Brody, we're supposed to get 6+ inches of snow tonight in Michigan! I'd rather be down there!
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I have watched the episodes since the first one when it aired and I have to disagree. Jack and Sawyer did not get along in the beginning and there has always been a competition between them mostly over Kate. But their relationship had evolved over the years and I don't believe Sawyer was acting consistently with his character's evolution. It didn't make sense to me. I just don't think people flip back and forth that much. I don't understand how Sayid killed a bunch of people for Ben without a good reason either. He was suddenly Ben's bitch just because? Okay, I guess that make sense to some people. I felt like a got to know the characters over 4 years and suddenly they seem to be all over the place. But again, I don't know what I'm talking about and I need to go watch some episodes.
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You think having a 40-ish actor playing Jacob means that he's going to be immortal or non-aging like Alpert? I'm surprised by the casting since that screencap Jacob looked like someone from way back. Maybe it's not the same Jacob.
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I'll be back when the smoke (monster) clears!
Oh...did we ever get a report back from FutureDirector on his WGA meeting with the LOST writers.
Billboe...I'd choose Gregg Nations...he's pretty stable. I have a feeling 5 minutes with the writers would be just as bad as 5 mins with Damon. -
Jacob, Finale spoilers & Whatever Happened Happened info
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Re: Jack and Sawyer. Their first interaction is Jack breaking up a fight between him and Sayid. A little top dog action there. Then Sawyer tries to "lead" and makes the decision to mercy kill Kate's bodyguard. Unfortunately, he hasn't got the killing thing down yet, and Jack has to clean up his mess. This sets the tone for their relationship to the point that Sawyer and Jack find it ironic that Jack must save him due to the injury Sawyer suffers with the tailies. Now, I do admit there was development of grudging respect. But if you don't think Sawyer is harboring a grudge about his alpha dog status and Kate (and Juliet for that matter), well I guees we don't agree. I'll raise you one by predicting the past will reapeat itself when Sawyer screws the pooch and Jack has to wake the fuck up and be competent.
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nuff said.
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how exactly has Sawyer's character evolved all that much? Yes, he got over the stumbling block of killing Locke's dad and he is more in tune with his peers, but he is still a liar. He is lying to the Dharma Initiative out of desperation and to Juliet because it is convenient to him. In addition, he only stayed on the island because he has nowhere else to go. It's not like it was an act of courage to not go back and raise his child. If he stays with Juliet, breaks rank to help his friend instead of helping himself and tops it off by making good with his kid, then we can talk about how the con man changed.
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Yer dead on. Seems like Sawyer's drunk on his new found 'power'...and the Jack Haters are lovin it.
The fact is...Sawyer's in WAY over his head...and people are gonna start getting hurt because of it. Starting with Lil Ben Linus. -
Yeah he was in Mullholland Dr. Although I recognized him from Dexter.
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Well he has changed in a number of ways. Jack & Sawyer have had a revalry, but at the same time a respect has grown between them. There has been a friendship growing though. There was the moment when Sawyer told Jack in the Season 1 finale about his meeting with Christian. There was also the time in Season 2 that Saywer told Jack that he was the closest thing to a friend on the island after telling him about sex with Ana Lucia.
having said that Jack has been gone for 3 years and now waltzs back into things. Jack left and messed everything up royally. Now that he came back he once again is disrupting everything after Sawyer finally got things back to normal, not only that but a good life. So its kind of understandable that Sawyer would act the way he did. But having said that Sawyer is now going to have to make some hard desicions on whats most important and we will really see how much he has progressed. -
How could the helicopter supply drops ever happen?
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at least people here are decent enough to post warnings first...Crazy time travel theories, courtesy of Col. Blimp:*'77 Sawyer gets off the island and becomes the original Sawyer (ie the man from Tallahassee)! Thus Sawyer got his name from himself! And steals Locke's kidney! And commits suicide!*Kate gives birth to herself! (that one made my brain spin) Really, why does Kate's (potential) baby have to be anyone we've already seen on the show? OT, As for 12 monkeys (which I really need to rewatch now), Bruce Willis wasn't sent back to prevent the pandemic, he was sent back to collect data to potentially find a cure/make humanity able to return to the surface. It is clearly stated in 12M that the past can't be changed, and the movie completely adheres to these rules. It is actually one of few time travel movies without plot holes. Can't really think of anyone else, except for the Roswell ep in Futurama. Now, to take the focus away from all this time travel craziness: anyone else notice Amy's behavious during the "town meeting"? Very conspicious. I think it strengthens the theory of her being an Other. She voted to kill Sayid not for fear of her child's safety, but for fear he would blow her cover.
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She's just gonna eat it.
[POOM] -
Ah man, I used to have this copy on hand. It was about Xaviers son waking up out of a coma and wanting to kill Magneto in the past.
Anyway, he goes back in time, confronts Magneto before there was any war between mutants, He accidentally kills Xavier and because of that, he seizes to exist.
The flash to modern day and they are wiped out, going with BTTF travel properties.
On a side note, and this kinda sucks, a friend of mine is part of staff on LOST, but she mentioned that they still dont know how they are going to wrap everything up. -
Don't think they were dropped via helicopter...Although a helicopter was shown as being for 'resupply support' in The Lost Experience ARG...it's not known if that is canon. I'm thinkin it's more likely a cargo plane. Perhaps whoever was still sending that island Dharma food has a similar 'window of opportunity' pendulum room like the Lamp Post. The blast door mentions the food drops every 6-8 months, garnering 5 fatalities. Did some of the DI members get picked off by the Hostiles while trying to retrieve the food?
All that said, I think 316 would have flown right over the island without any problem if the time flash didn't happen at exactly the right moment. Same with 815, if Des had entered the code in time.
As to why they were still dropping food as late as December 2004, when the Dharma funding was cut back in 1987...remains a mystery...perhaps SOMEONE (*cough* Alvar Hanso *cough*) still holds onto the belief that the work of the DI is still continuing...long after 'the Purge'.
Is it possible Mr. Friendly & Company were trying to disguise themselves as 'hostiles' whenever someone 'new' arrives on the island? To keep up the ruse, in case some ACTUAL Dharma folk show up to give the island a 'look see', they can convince them that The DI is still running smoothly...but they have to 'leave' cuz they are on 'Hostile Territory' and are in direct violation of the 'truce'...when, in actuality...they the entire Dharma presence on the island is long gone...and only 'Hotiles' remain...POSING as DI members.
I mean...in 1977...Ann Arbor HAD to know the DI team were having problems with 'the locals' on the island...So...when 815 crashed, Ethan & Goodwin were sent to infiltrate posing as 815 crash survivors...but when they didn't fully report back...they sent Big Gay Tom in their 'hostiles' make up, just in case any ACTUAL Dharma peeps were on that flight....to keep up their "lie".
I HOPE we get an explanation on the food drops...and why the Lockdown sequence was still happening in 2004...but I doubt we'll ver hear about it again. My question is...Why does all the food only have the Swan Logo on it? I mean...The people at The Flame GOTTA EAT, too! -
That means your friend who works on Lost...knows about as much as Evangeline Lilly. So, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Unless your friend works on the WRITING staff! THEN we're in trouble! -
that Jack will have to take over for Sawyer because Jack is the real leader and James already screwed up with the Sayid situation. Sawyer isn't actually leading either. He became one of "them" and is following a leader in Horace. Now that their original gang is back on the island Sawyer is trying to take the lead but he's not interested in what's best for the old gang. He's really still just in it for himself in that way. He's comfortable and just really wanted Jack and Sayid and everyone to go along with his new life, but luckily Sayid jumped ship. Unfortunately Jack is content to eat his Dharma snacks for now.
As far as Jack and Saywer's previous relationship goes, I was going by the last time they saw each other. When Jin drove up in the van with them in tow, the last time Sawyer and Jack saw each other was in the chopper, when Sawyer sacrificed himself so they could get off the island AND he and Jack had just recently gone on a tandem mission to get Hurley I think it was. So, imo, their relationship was pretty decent when they last saw each other. I wasn't going all the way back to season 1. I thought that was ancient history. The scene in Saywer & Juliet's love shack looked like Jack wanting to know from Sawyer what to do next and Sawyer being all 'I'm the boss now so shut your hole and wait til I feel like telling you what to do'. He seemed hostile out of nowhere, imo. When they were all still together Sawyer was saving Claire, rescuing baby Aaron, jumping out of the chopper so that Hurley wouldn't have to. I don't know. I thought he had learned to think of people other than himself. Maybe I was wrong.
About Amy. I haven't trusted her since we first saw her. She's probably an operative of Ben or Widmore because she already changed things by taking Olivia's place. She's a rogue at least.
And do we know for sure that Kate's pregnant? -
My problem with for instance Des and Charlotte not remembering things from their past until they happen (bad sentence but you get my meaning, right?): There is no internal logic to when they suddenly remember these things. Bear with me, there is great risk of incoherency here: When Des got off the island, and Faraday et al started jumping in time at the end of season 4 they where both parallell in time. So for Faraday, about one day (give or take) after the time skips begins, he bangs on the door to the hatch and talks to Des. At this point, 24 hours after the skips began, Desmond is in a lifeboat with the O-6, about to be rescued. This would be the logical point where present-Des remembered Faraday banging on the hatch, right? Because this is where present-Des is in time when present-Faraday talked to past-Des (curse you, time travel plot, you make my typing look ridiculous!) But, it took Des three more years to remember Faraday! That doesn't add up. Remember, when Des woke up on the boat, telling Penny he dreamt he was back on the island and she said that was three years ago? What accounts for the three year delay? To me, being a fan of Occam and his shaving equipment, it seems more likely that Des had had the memory in him all the time, but simply forgot until it one day came back to him in a dream. Lord knows that has happened to me, suddenly remembering things long forgotten. Although, Des is special, and there is the scene with Penny asking Des why he suddenly remembered this out of the blue, which supports the theory that his memory just popped up. So I'm keeping an open mind. But why three years later? Also, Charlotte remembering Faraday at her death because that was when he decided he would do it, or because that was the trigger that caused the chain of events that leads up to him telling her she's gonna die doesn't really makes sense. Decisions can be unmade, and there is an infinite number of "triggers" that will cause Faraday to talk to young Charlotte, so focusing on just this one seems random. Had it been him telling her to leave the island that triggered old Charlotte to remember him, at least that would make sense logically. Nope, Charlotte always had that memory, she just didn't connect the dots until it was too late.
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FutureDirector...Ya got any insight from you WGA meeting?!!
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Never, ever, try to write about time travel paradoxes after midnight.It gets messy.
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Yeah,
Pretty good question cause I know I actually really liked season 2, (despite the airing of the eps) and everything with the hatch and especially the drops always intrigued me.
In 2004, with Richard still recruiting people like Juliet, they either still have the DI's benefactor fooled or they are possibly funding things themselves.
Ben did have an awful lot of spare currency in his closet hideout.
I'd ALSO like to see how they converted the people the did manage to kidnap from the 815 crash. Like um, damn, what's her name,...the stewardess. I don't believe she was a plant.
But then again, with time travel, someone in the past now knows that 815 will crash on that island huh?
Owww. And now, beers! -
We don't know for sure if Kate's preggers...yet. That's just speculation. But...not so sure there's Widmore pregnancy tests yet in 1977! Think they'll have to get Bunny #8 and conduct a rabbit test!
Unless Lil Ben shakes it to death again! Either way...i think a Rabbit#8 will be toast...again!! -
Her godfather is on of the directors on the show, so I'm just saying what she told me. Hopefully (really!) its wrong. That and Sawyer was like the nicest fuckin guy on the set. Even drove her around Hawaii showing her places.
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what time period was it the last time we saw a "flash?" I thought our remaining survivors (Sawyer, Miles, and co.) were in ancient times, looking at the huge four-toed statue's backside. Then, when Locke fixed the wheel, they ended up in 1974. So how did Jack, Sayid, Kate, and Hurley end up in 1977? They were flying over in 2007, and flashed from flight 316 to 1977. Cheif, I guess that question is for you, referencing your earlier statement.
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sounds like a good story about your friend, but forgive me if I'm skeptical - you don't have a real reliable track record!
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If Juliet has to go 'old school' and perform a rabbit test to determine Kate's pregnancy!!
But I think lil miss Kate will be shown barfing the morning soon. -
Where are you guys today? Out partying like I'd like to be, celebrating the Spartans? I can hardly get out of my house - got 6 inches of heavy, wet, slippery snow overnight, and it's still blowing and coming down. Geez I hate Michigan in the spring!
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One of the directors I mean. I gotta get batteries for this keyboard dammnit.
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SHE'S on the staff...or her GODFATHER'S on the staff? Which director is he? Cuz...Jack Bender has already said he knows how it ends.
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Where are you, Col. Blimp, Europe?
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Yeah, I think it's Bender. So who knows. She was just there a week ago. She's actually a dresser. But her GF happens to be Bender if I'm not mistaken.
But hey, if Bender said shits good then I'll believe it. I'll call them back after the games later and clarify shit. -
As far as reliability, that was something written down about the episodes that I misread.
This is a little bit different. I'm not speculating. -
because they apparently have a connection to the losties in '77. When the time skipping stopped, the losties where in 1977. At the same "subjective" time, the O6 where in a lifeboat. Then, three years passed for both groups, and in 2007, when the O6 returned with Ajira 316, the losties had been three years in the past, and where thus in 1977. So when the O6 returned to the island, it is logical that they met up with the losties at their corresponding time, ie 1977. Makes sense? Sort of. Maybe the reason why Ben, Sun and Locke weren't transported in time was because they weren't in "time sync" with the rest? While the losties lived three years on the island, and the O6 lived three years off the island, both Ben and Locke have "lost time" in this period. Ben arrived in Tunisia a year after turning the wheel, right? And locke jumped almost three years. Maybe sun has some lost time we don't know about yet?
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Which is indeed in Europe.
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Yeah,
I hated following AICN when I was in the military. I'd be stationed in Kuwait, Dubai and Italy over 6 years and it sucked trying to keep track of shit. -
The way I understand it, the memory was not created until the events happened in real time. Desmond never remembered it because it didn't happen until Daniel came back from the future to knock on the door. I think Charlotte's memory was kind of misleading because she has always had the memory of Daniel in her mind because he has been to the past more than once. In a previous trip to the past he did tell her to stay away from the island, but did not contact Desmond. I don't know, poke some holes in that. Time travel is ultra confusing without all the info.
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time shift that Miles said "Felt different". That sent Sawyer, Juliet, Miles & Co to 1974...and sent Jack, Kate, Sayid & Hurley to 1977...where their time paths met.
Now...some are speculating that the 316 folk might have ALSO experienced a bit of a time shift, too...perhaps they landed on the Hydra in 2010...rather than 2007. Which is why the barracks look a lil more worse for wear. But I think people are putting too much emphasis on all the Dharma signs still laying around the barracks...as if to say...Perhaps the DI SURVIVED the Purge and the timeline is altered. I say "hooey" to that nonsense.
I don't think the Hostiles took down ANY of the Dharma shit when they started playin house at the barracks. I think they felt they NEEDED to keep up the Dharma ruse in case they ever got paid a visit by the DI folks from Ann Arbor. (BTW...It's sunny and 78 degrees here in Tampa!)
I mean...look at when Ben recruited Juliet back in 2001...The Others NEEDED that Dharma shit up to add to the 'legitamacy' of their doings on the island...to convince people like Juliet they were on the 'up & up'. That's why all those signs were still littered about when Sun paid the barracks a visit with Frank.
But the 316 folks time shifted to 2010? I wouldn't count that out...I mean LOST premiered on September 22nd, 2004...the same day 815 crashed. I think Flight 316 will take OFF the island on May 26th, 2010...the same night as the series finale. -
I think he is caught in some sort of time loop that he created by warning Charlotte initially. If you remember, he was drawn to the island but he couldn't remember why the idea of 815 crashing was so upsetting. I think he's been trying to change something in the past, and is driving himself nuts. But he finally figured out that Desmond stands out of time and can help him break the cycle. That's why he considers him his constant.
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Are you saying that Faraday has travelled to the past before and is aware of it? Or do you mean that in another timeline, he didn't bang on Desmonds door? That would mean we are operating with a potentially infinite number of parallell realities, and that's opening up a whole new can of wormholes to me... Going down the plot holed road of BTTF and Heroes... But still, what I don't really understand is why Faraday assumed that banging on Desmond's hatch (that sounded sort of nasty...) would mean changing the timeline. How did he know he hadn't "always" done that? Or was he just confused and thought that they as time travellers were unable to interact with the past in any way? Because that has obviously been disproven.
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why does Desmond have to be special for Faraday's door knocking to work?
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Bender didn't say it was good...he just said he knows how it ends!!
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Remember the girl he practically left brain dead back in London...he experimented on HER, too. I think she wasn't the ONLY one he experimented on...
Remember at the end of "The Constant"...Farraday opened is journal...and he had written "Desmond is my Constant"...so, he KNEW Des was his constant before Des ever came looking for him. Which tells me Daniel's experiments gave him a look into his past...or his future...he may have experienced a few things...but he doesn't know where they all 'fit'...like crying over the 815 news.
I'm saying, Farraday is like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple pieces missing...But he knows Desmond is somehow 'special' (made so by his close proximity to the electromagnetic pulse he unleashed with that fail safe key)...and Desmond is helping him find those missing puzzle pieces. -
Just giving you a little crap, that's all! I would seriously love to do a tour of Hawaii and the Lost filming universe! Your friend is very lucky.
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How do you figure that the "final flash" was what got flight 316 to crash on LOST island? I suppose it makes sense that a flash got Jack back to the island, but the last flash that "felt different" was the one that sent Sawyer and Co. from ancient time to 1974, right? I'll have to rewatch to see. So you're theorizing that the flashes sent people to random time frames, apart from the other people on the island? So Rose and Bernard and everyone else could be in say 2010 or 1950? I guess that's why we haven't seen them.
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Wow. University of Final Four!!!
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So Vincent could have ended up in Ancient times, and then worshipped by the locals, hence the four toe statue ?
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Yeah man, no worries. It's all good.
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I was just saying tho. The last ep was about Sayid. A professional killer. From childhood we are seen he is a killer. Yet, he cannot off young ben at point blank range as a 12 year lod. Huh?
I'm pissed cause the tv info said Juliet and Jack argue about saving young Ben. WTF, So....a BORN KILLER cannot pop a 12 year old at point blank range? Gay. Captain Hammer Style, four sweater vests and shit! -
you know where to look. Exciting, exciting stuff! I guess I'm going to go through season 6 spoiler free, so I'm enjoying all these last bits of 5 :) Doesn't mean I can't check in during the summer months, right?
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Weekend partying caught up with me!
Well...that last time flash (that felt different) fried the circuitry of 316 and forced the awesome Lapidus emergency landing. Now, that's when Sawyer, Jin, Juliet, Miles & Farraday jumped to 1974 and got captured by The DI.
In that SAME flash...Jack, Kate, Sayid & Hurley got sent to 1977...where they 'caught up' with Sawyer & the gang after they had been established and absorbed into the Dharma Initiative for 3 years.
And no...Rose, Bernard & Vincent have been travelling along in time with Sawyer & his crew...just at another location on the island (possibly with the 'Hostiles'?). This is established by Jin's time travelling coinciding with the rest of the 'left behindy's' time shifts....even though he was out at sea floating on a door like Leo...but still within the perimeter of the island's time jump leaps.
So...in answer to your question...EVERYONE on the island is now in 1977...Except the 316ers on the Hydra Island...God only knows where they are...but it's most likely 2007...or very near there.
It would be a trip if in the series finale...Lapidus gets 316 flight ready by pilfering parts from the cockpit of 815...and they take off...when he requests a landing...Identifying himself as Ajira Flight 3-1-6...and there's a pause from the air traffic control...who says something like..."Um...3-1-6...Are you sure?"
Lapidus says "Hell yes, I'm sure! Ajira Flight 3-1-6...which runway you want me on?...
Another long pause...
"Sir...Excuse me if I'm a little...uh...confused....but...Ajira Flight 3-1-6 disappeared off radar 23 YEARS ago over the South Pacific"...
Lapidus is stunned..."23 Years ago?...Well...What the hell year is it?"...
"It's 2030, sir...2-0-3-0...do you copy?"...
Lapidus is shell shocked. "Do you you still have runways in 2030...cuz I'm running out of fuel here!".
The plane lands...and Aaron & Ji Yeon show up at the 316 press conference as adults...and Walt picks up Vincent as a 35 year old man!
That would be trippy, huh? -
Hope it was a good weekend for everyone. I know it was for the Spartan fans, and was for me (UNC) as well.
So...anything non-spoiler new? -
They have to make Ben survive - it's a plot contrivance, kind of like when the bad guys set James Bond up in some contraption to die, then leave and don't stick around to watch to see if he can escape. I agree on the lameness of it all, but I'd like to think that a normal child would die, but the island is "saving" Ben - course correction, if you will. Sayid should have pumped several more rounds into the boy, or put one through his eye if he wanted him dead, but he was so distraught about killing a child he ran off into the jungle!
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had worked PLENTY of times in the past for Sayid...Who I'm certain was train for the 'quick, efficient kill'...not the let's unload a full clip into someone.
I agree with BigE...Sayid did not factor in the isand's mysterious ways...and how good Jack is at 'fixing' things.
No we have TWO people who have killed someone...who will soon be confronted by the person they killed walking around fine. Ben's gonna shit his pants when he finds Locke up and around...and Sayid's gonna freak when older Ben catches up with HIS ass on the island. -
through my last post ok...with all those typos! Oh, well...I think you get my drift.
Anyways...Just for the record...Herc posted the new 'Heroes' talkback at 2:19am this morning!! Only a couple hours into Monday, and the dude can't WAIT to get a talkback going for that piece of shit?
And yet...We have to wait til late in the afternoon (ET) to get our LOST talkback every Wednesday?
I. Just. Don't. Get. It. -
A friend of mine who, ironically introduced me to LOST, swears Heroes is a better written show.
Heroes is a fuckin insult, and to post hype for it here is ridiculous because the type of fans on here (save Dickblood) are smarter than that shit. -
Well all thats been said, but also the fact that Jin had just called Sawyer so Sayid knew that they would be coming soon to find Sayid. So normally Sayid would have filled him full of lead, but he knew that he only had so much time to shoot & run.
Besides that people ask why Sayid didn't shoot Ben in the eye or something, but you could ask the same thing as to why he didn't shoot Keemy in the eye which lead to Keemy coming back to attack Ben & Locke in the Orchid. I don't think thats how Sayid does things. -
... what can I say? I mean, yesterday's game was just as beautiful as the best of Lost episodes. Hopefully, I can make it to Ford Field.
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I've got a feeling that the dilapidated state of the barracks implies that the crash survivors are a good ways into the future (I just hope they aren't too far past 2007). You never know if everyone on the island was actually on the flight, though. We may be seeing an opening for a grown-up Aaron, as well as Sun & Jin's child, among other characters...
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Google it.
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Mar 30, 2009 1:10:27 PM CDT
possible explanation for the lateness of the LOST talkbacks
by billboefett
seems they've always been late ever since AICN got in trouble with Disney over people spoiling the ending to the season 3 finale. There was even discussion that we wouldn't have them anymore. I've noticed every talkback since then has always come alot later.
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Why would anyone build a time machine out of a donkey wheel and a "special" underground power supply? If you want to make a time machine with style aren't you supposed to use a Flux capactitor, a Delorean and 1.21 jigawatts.
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Now your going to reap the wrath of Cheif Brody on your head.
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Mar 30, 2009 6:12:44 PM CDT
CB doesn't like Back to the Future's type of Time Travel
by 4we8have15to16go23back42
I do though. My guess is that the power was already there because of some ancient explanation and so maybe when whoever was on the Black Rock ended up on the island (long before Dharma) they somehow found the source in some cave and knew that it would need some sort of device to trigger the power. Sort Alvar Hanso or whoever it was took parts from the Black Rock to build the device. That included the slave donkey wheel at the bottom of the ship that had been used to raise the anchor.
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we don't NEED roads!"...Lol!!
I LOVED BTTF time travel...IN BTTF!! Not in my LOST, thank you.
DeeJay...If ya scroll up about 13 posts...I said where I think 316 is...and another possibility if, indeed, 316 is somewhere OTHER than 2007.
But...even if Sun and Frank were visiting the barracks in 2007...there are LOTS of explanations as to why it is in such disrepair.
1. Keamy and his mercenanries had fun shooting it all to shit and blowing it up real good in 2004.
2. The sub explosion Locke set off damaged the dock.
3. Could have been a weather event. Perhaps a monsoon swamprd the island between 2004 & 2007.
4. General neglect. It's obvious those Others who finished building the runway weren't living there...Perhaps after all the shit went down with the freighter exploding, etc...Everyone moved over to the Hydra island...and we just haven't seen them yet?
Well, if Walt's dreams come true...Locke will soon find himself in a suit (check)...on a beach (check)...surrounded by people who want to do him harm...
(Check?) -
why the people on the Ajira flight split up? It must be the same reason why the losties were flashing but not the Others, right? What could that be?
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In Season we had Keeemy and his mercs. In season 3 we had Pickett, Mikail & Tom along with a number of Others. Who do you all think is going to end up being the big bad of season 5 if any? Ceasar? Illena? Old Ben? Someone else?
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at this point in the season last year, I'm not even sure if we'd met Keamy yet. (loved him :( ) So maybe we haven't seen them yet, since no one seems to be too bad. Maybe Larry from Daryl, but he didn't even know if he got his sugarcubes right. If this season is supposed to be echoing season 2 then who got it at the end of season 2? Libby and Ana Lucia? So that'd be AnNOTLucia, meaning Ilana, and who's the new Libby? Amy?
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Ahem...ATTEMPT to kill Ben...twice in one season. But I think we'll see how Radzinski was 'assisted' in turning his brain pan into ceiling paint.
But...he's not much of a "big baddie" is he? I dunno, Pa...You just don't kill all the main baddies until the final season....otherwise...you lose the conflict.
I'm thinkin Season 5 means a few of our favorite Losties numbers are up....and I'm not talkin red shirts. -
The dude's done nothing but steal a shotgun so far! Maybe you read spoilers, but he sure hasn't been big bad yet!
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I tried talking my dad in joining me to go down there and try to get tickets, but no dice. He, like me, would rather enjoy it on TV - without a crappy view. The only times I've been in Ford Field, incidentally, was running across the finish line of the Detroit Marathon. Nice place to finish! Sorry if that was off-topic for you non-sports fans.
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If theres something that I've read a spoiler on I try not to discuss it here. So no I haven't read anything about Ceasar. I just remember all of the speculation when he got on the plane that he was probably one of Widmores men. Could be,or maybe he has some other reason for being there? He & Illena seem the best candidates to me. But what do I know.
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Widmore...and he's there to punch Ben's ticket...Is he really a 'bad guy'? I mean...Keamy was a bad guy out to kill Ben...many thought of him as a 'good' guy!
But, since i think ben's done gettin killed...I'd say anyone on the island there to kill him...will suffer a bad fate.
Including Sayid. -
Maybe Ceasar is working for Widmore & Illana is working for Ben and there will be a cool battle over Ben's life, but they both end up killing each other?
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Sayid gets one more shot in the sack with her before that happens! This time Sayid...Don't start at her boots!
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since Im betting that those in 1977 won't return until the season ends. But maybe next season if she doesn't die.
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Pa...you forgot to [POOM]!
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[POOM}!
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More Finale Spoilers, 4 videos on Whatever Happened Happened, Interview with Eric Lange (Radinsky) & a short article about how Michelle Rodriguez is up to her antics again.
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should be pretty psyched when they hear Sayid shot Benry the Little, right?
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But, it would appear that LOST Untangled...and a TV Guide episode synopsis gaffe have let us know that they're not so 'psyched' that they don't do all they can to SAVE lil Linus.
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I read all that stuff so I know what's in it. I was intentionally being vague to avoid spoiling. I thought they were careful about what they let out. Especially in the official stuff. But it still doesn't say exactly what happens. Anywho, the way I look at it you guys are right that the Island is going to decide about Benry. I never disagreed about that. I just hope it decides to get rid of him. I was in a chat when the episode aired where people were like 'Sayid shot Ben but he's alive so that doesn't matter'. And their reasoning was that he was alive as an adult in previous episodes therefore Sayid shooting him meant nothing. But I know that while I want him to die I also know that it probably won't happen. But it's not certain. So the idea that Jack MUST save him, or the island WILL heal him (because we've seen adult Ben) is really good speculation but it's not definite. Unless those kinds of spoilers got out. I didn't read anything like that.
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Phil. Too creepy not to be. Don't buy that clueless act.
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I so want to discuss with you one of the scenes about time travel that I posted at Room 23, but some will think its a spoiler, so I'll wait till tomarrow night.
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But if lil Ben dies...and Older Ben ceases to exist...you get alternate timelines...which Darlton has been stating over and over again will not happen on LOST.
The LOST Untangled showed lil Ben hooked up to all kinds of medical equipment...which means he didn't die where Sayid shot him...and once he gets together with "Mr. Fix It" Workman/Surgeon Jack...we know what the outcome will be.
ToughGuyRizzo read a synopsis...either online...or on his cable menu for "He's Our You" that said...'Jack and Juliet attempt to save young Ben's life'. Great synopsis...wrong episode.
No...Ben's survival is not definite...anything could happen, I suppose...but, my Magic LOST 8 Ball tells me 'Ben Lives'...and becomes some kind of DI mythic legend..."The Boy Who Tried to Stop the Hostile From Escaping...And Cheated Death! He becomes the 'hero'...thus alienating his father even more. This is the first step in Ben's 'rise to power' in the DI. And he will eventually USE that power to BETRAY the DI.
Unless you say he dies....then none of that happens. -
I LOVED him in 'Old School'...as Piven's snarky assistant. Great character actor. Pa, He's the guy
who was in the hatch that Sayid was being held in...watching the monitors...actin creepy. LaFleur told him to get his ass out to the burning barracks to help...that's when Ben slipped in to free Sayid. -
What they need to do is take a page from Bill & Ted and bring all of the Dharma people to the the present to repopulate the Dharma stations and rebuild the program post Others.
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Check out Phil playing an insult comedian in the 2nd season of Mad Men. Kicks ass.
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Thought so, he was the black haired guy who bailed another DI out for having a Hootenanny or however you spell it. Im betting he gets a bullet or gassed fairly quickly.
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Think I'm gonna try and get into Mad Men on the LOST break.
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Ugh I'm bored.
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Definately worth it Cheif
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by his mother's love, and is now the Boy Who Lived. To kill his arch nemesis, Ben must cross wands with Sayid.
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Ok - Old School was on recently and I commented to the wife that "the guy is on Lost now." He's an actor that pops up a lot as a character guy. Juliet's ex-husband does as well. How did Richard Alpert rig that bus to run over him anyway? Ancient Egyptian magic?
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Lightning bolt shaped, of course.
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Don't you think with his special "powers" that he'd be less complacent than he is, stuck on an island in the 70's? Wouldn't be trying to sneak out or get back somehow?
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The last time we saw Locke, he was looking down at an injured(?) Ben. Does anyone have any thoughts on how this ties in to Ben getting shot? Is Ben injured because of Sun hitting him, or does it have something to do with him getting shot? Are these things going to tie in somehow?
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About 316. Good points on when it is they crashed but I thought of something (if it wasnt discussed earlier)....
In season 3, didnt Juliet "joke" with Sawyer that they were building a runway? I could have sworn that Lapidus landed 316 on a pretty good looking runway.
About that ep synopsis, I am sure I read it for tomorrows ep. But I do agree Ben will live and draw attention to himself (and most importantly Richard) thus setting up his eventual leadership of the Others. -
So, about the runway,....if that's true that it WAS built, then it AFTER Keamy's team arrived but who knows how much longer? I wonder who knew to keep building it? It wasnt exactly finished, but maybe Richard knew Locke would be returning one day like this?
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Anybody else really think season 2 is totally under rated? I mean, I loved sea 1, but I think 2 gets such a bad rap. I'm going to be re watching it this weekend actually. It's been awhile.
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It sort of started it all in terms of the show's mythology, and it introduced three of the show's most popular charcaters in Mr. Eko, Desmond, and Ben. Not to mention it's kick ass finale which is still in my top 5 favorite episodes.
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You may be on to something. Des' original flashes started when he was knocked out by the blast from turning the failsafe key right? And his first flash in time was to when he was probably knocked out when he fell off the ladder from painting right? So maybe the reason Des was able to flash the way he was was because he had to be unconscious at two separate times and flash between them? Maybe Ben will be able to do that now since baby Benry is unconscious with being shot and old Ben is unconscious from getting pwned by Sun? Maybe.
btw, I think Bill & Ted is where I get my time travel from. I love that damn movie. Remember a trash can! -
Hmmm...It's a really good theory, but I don't think being unconscious at 2 different points in your life would make it work.
I understand what you are saying, but in Desmonds case, he's singled out and we KNOW he flashes thru time because of the Swan stations implosion.
I'd be interesting to see future Ben switch minds like desmond sis in The Constant, but I dont think a gunshot and an oar to the head .is on the same level as the hatch
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8:59 pm EST
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but I don't want to say so no one gets spoiled accidently. so here's a pic of the character: http://tinyurl.com/c2oxz9
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No way they would do that. Thats one of the Lost Trinity or love triangle.
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No spoilers from here out for me. However, I will pick a time...a wee bit earlier than node's.
4:42 PM EDT -
Bilbo and Cherry, leave me spoiler free! My prediction - 3:23 PM ET
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you guys are no fun
I'm not going to pick a time because I never even see posts when they first go up. I can like refresh a bunch of times and not see anything. Then I'll leave the house and come back and I'll see a new post that's supposed to have been there since forever. Plus, I don't come in here until after the show. I'm actually afraid of immediate spoilers. The reason I read them sometimes is I never got over being spoiled for TPM in the line going into the theater. Some jackass had to talk about you know who dying really loud so everyone could hear because he'd already seen a screening. So now I'm afraid of getting spoiled for things right before by jerks. So sometimes I spoil myself to be on the safe side. -
I'll post this in the new TB as well but for anyone still here I HIGHLY recommend you read Jeff Jensen's column today in EW where he outlines his Carlos Castaneda ("A Separate Reality") theory on LOST. It will blow you the fuck away.
http://tinyurl.com/cqedww
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Just read Jensen's column in EW online. My head hurts.
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Was that not a mindscrew? The simialrities are intriguing. The "warrior-travelers", the "other-worldy beings" or "Allies" aiding in the warrior-traveler's journey that come from their sub-conscious, the inorganic entity called "mud shadow" or "flyer" that Castaneda says are "an essential part of the universe...and they must be taken as what they really are — awesome, monstrous. They are the means by which the universe tests us."
Fuck me.
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"the sorcerers of ancient Mexico called the predator the flyer (italicised by Castaneda) “because it leaps through the air... It is a big shadow, impenetrably black, a black shadow that jumps through the air.”
In The Active Side of Infinity, Don Juan tells Castaneda that “the predators give us their mind, which becomes our mind.”
The sorcerers of ancient times “found out that if they taxed the flyers’ mind with inner silence."
"The main effect of the flyers upon our mind is seen in mental conditioning, brainwashing." Rousseau's group anyone?
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This is all related to Toltec meta-history from Mesoamerica which could easily be related to Eyptian or Atlantian mythology. Check out this link for more:
http://tinyurl.com/cpxuty
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Check it out Red posted an article about Lindeloff leaving the show!
http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/ -
I've read all those books and although I did think about them a few times during the show's run, LOST has mostly been about other stuff. Castaneda's stuff is mysticism, not science. Every week Jensen tries to tie the show to some book completely and you can do that in many cases but they're not completely copying anything. They might be influenced by them or using a couple of things but LOST is it's own thing. I think Jensen just likes showing off how many books he's read and he tries to make too many connections. The only other time LOST had any shamanism in it was some of the wacky crap Locke did with the sweat lodge and the paste. The big subject for LOST is time and perhaps ancient history. I mean that's obvious now, they're not going to get into alternate realities at this late stage.
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3:16pm ET. If any of you idiots are in the top 10 posts...Please make your subject line "WHERE THE HELL IS THE NEW LOST TALKBACK?"
Then feel free to piss and moan about the Heroes TB being posted Monday at 2:19am ET this week.
And it makes no sense that Darlton is 'restricting' Herc in any way...His LOST post haven't contained ANY spoilers in 2 years...just wild speculation from a guy I don't think even follows the show. Rant out. -
I'm not saying, and Jensen is not saying, that LOST is copying Castaneda, but you have to admit the parallels are illuminating. Lost put a Castaneda book in front of us in the last episode as either a hint at where they are going with this (at least in part), what their influences are, or as a red herring. I think we can all agree Lost is not just about science or pseudoscience as well.
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I'm not saying, and Jensen is not saying, that LOST is copying Castaneda, but you have to admit the parallels are illuminating. Lost put a Castaneda book in front of us in the last episode as either a hint at where they are going with this (at least in part), what their influences are, or as a red herring. I think we can all agree Lost is not just about science or pseudoscience as well.
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NOT In Plain Sight!
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Check out these awsome vintage Dharma Ads that someone created!!!
http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/ -
because I had said that the scene with Christian and Sun in the barracks the week before looked like an alternate reality thinking of those books and how the spirit world kinda overlaps with ours and everyone was like 'whatever'. But then when they show the book itself, now everyone's like "Oooo", "Ahhhh". It's having read those books years ago that made me think something like that in the first place. I dunno. I want to quit this, but I can't seem to.
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