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‘You Got Her Pregnant??’ Jane Espenson Wrote Tonight’s Final-Five GALACTICA!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Last week’s installment explained a lot.
As I understand it:
The planet Kobol birthed 12 human colonies and a 13th (Cylon) colony called Earth.
At first the Kobol Cylons couldn’t reproduce, so they invented the resurrection machine. Then they discovered how to reproduce and forgot about the resurrection machine.
Saul & Ellen, Galen & Tory and Sam all lived on Cylon Earth re-inventing resurrection technology -- until Cylon Earth was annihilated in a nuclear holocaust.
The five Cylons, resurrected post-catastrophe, traveled for 2,000 years at subluminal speed until they stumbled upon Cylon War I, being fought by the human descendants of Kobol and new Cylons “invented” only a few decades before by a billionaire scientist who looked just like Eric Stoltz.
The five 2,000-year-old humanoid Cylons somehow sat the Stoltz Cylons (which looked like 1978 Cylons) down and told them they’d give the Stoltz Cylons resurrection technology if they called off their war with the humans.
The five also created John Cavil, who was modeled after Ellen’s Cylon dad.
Cavil killed the five, then resurrected them with false memories. He kept the five’s identities secrets from the Leoben, D'Anna, Simon, Doral, Six and Sharon models.
Cavil made Saul Tigh believe he was a veteran of Cylon War I, and that Tigh’s father was a viper pilot and that Tigh’s grandfather was a presidential military advisor.
Cavil made Ellen Tigh believe she was a Picon refugee. He also boned her on New Caprica.
Cavil made Galen Tyrol believe his parents were a priest and an oracle. The first time we met Cavil, he was tormenting Tyrol with the idea of a godless universe, and the idea that Tyrol secretly suspects himself to be a sleeper Cylon.
Cavil made Sam Anders believe he was a Caprican pyramid player. He made Tory Foster believe she was a Caprican expert on political polling.
But wait a minute -- wasn’t the Temple of Five on the Algae Planet constructed 4,000 years ago? 400 years before the members of the 13 colonies fled Kobol?
And who or what has been keeping spare copies of Kara Thrace lying around?
Tonight’s episode, titled “Deadlock,” is the last written by the great Jane Espenson, who’s been doing such a bang-up job on “Galactica” she was chosen to pen the Cylon-centric post-series “Galactica” prequel “The Plan.”
SciFi says:
Ellen is faced with a decision that could have repercussions for humans and Cylons alike.
After tonight, only four episodes left.
10 p.m. Friday. SciFi.
$18.99 Gets You Joseph Adama
In Caprica: The Pilot
Don’t Fear The Meld!!
$18.99 Gets You Joseph Adama
In Caprica: The Pilot
Don’t Fear The Meld!!
Don’t Fear The Meld!!
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Crap....I can't win...
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Can't wait to see it!
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Starbuck is one of the failed Daniels. The 8th. And I dont think the story so far jibes with the varying ages of the 5 old 'original' cylons. Adama said he's know Saul for 40 years and saw him age. Unless Cavil released them from storage at different intervals? But we saw Saul and Ellen on Earth at the holocaust looking like their present age... Gods know theres a ton of unanswered questions yet.
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Feb 20, 2009 1:33:14 AM CST
Cue the "Boo hoo, Whine, BSG has jumped the FTL brigade"
by donkey_lasher
You don't get it. Go back to watching The Clone Wars.
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Everyone will be dead except Roslin, Boomer, Six, Baltar and Hera. Roslin and Boomer (last human, last cylon) are chasing after Baltar, 6 and Hera as they run towards the 'Promised Land' that lays outside of the OperaHouse. 6 and Baltar are the new Adam and Eve and Hera will Herald in the new era of human/cylon hybrids that the next civilisation will become. This new civilisation will grow, create cylons to do their bidding, and start a new war that starts the whole thing over again.
This is my guess anyway. So say we all; or at least so says ShogunMaster... -
Feb 20, 2009 1:51:10 AM CST
I had no idea that AICN Message Boards were for selling things..
by shogunmaster
So anyone interested in a 2001 Black Cherokee, 100K, Auto, all records, no accidents, CD/Cassette, A/C, Alarm, Great Condition! $15k obo...
AICN, you can delete this joke message after you're finished banning Rumple Foreskin... ;-) -
...when using it for crypto-Oedipal purposes.
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Feb 20, 2009 2:40:35 AM CST
CAVILL: two hits. Tigh hitting you. You hitting the ground.
by lordenigma
Seriously; Cavil needs to be put in a sleeping bag, and thrown up against a tree. He's the whole fucking reason behind everything going to shit. So I hope that he gets his before the end, but this is BSG. He will get off, but receive a complete mind-fuck in the process. Nevertheless; Kara's dad had to be Daniel. She's a half-cylon, and this explains her whackiness. You know, like, the whole cloning thing.
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more like a resurrection thing, but it's still fucking cloning. Damn it.
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We see flashbacks to when Bill Adama met Saul Tigh in a bar - back when Saul had hair. So did this happen or not? If it did, how come Saul's appearance changed...?
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Daniel's entire line was corrupted and boxed, as Cavil and Ellen revealed last time. Could "corrupted" mean "changed gender"..? If so, what if a few versions of "Daniel" were set free, one of them calling themselves Kara Thrace..? Daniel was an artist... Kara has been drawing the swirl since childhood and plastered the walls of the Demetrius with pictures...
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Others remeber watching him.
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Just read your post above - sorry for the repetition.
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So who was the Danile model? Is it the old School Greystone who "createc" the (third generation?) Cylons? Or is it the case that Starbuck is Daniel? Or Daniella?....
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There were obviously millions of cylons on Earth, so therefore there doesn't have to be just a Daniel. The Final 5 could have been 6+. None of the Final 5 have full memories and Cavill may not have met them all after he was created. therefore the writers are in a position to create as many of them now as they like (Starbuck, Starbucks daddy, Adama, Roslin, Bob Smith.
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about the nuclear holocaust they got warned about by their Head-Phantoms???
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I would like it if other Earthlons escaped on their own and The Five didn't know it. they obviously had spaceships so maybe some got away.
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she looks tore up!
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The filthy hu-maans wouldn't have told anyone - every man for himself!
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So I get that the 'final five' were released into various facets of society, but has it been explained how they all managed to survive the holocaust?
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when Boomer & Caprica-Six died & were resurrected on Nuked-Caprica.
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Ellen somehow survived and Cavil put her on a transport that took her to the Rising Star after the attack. Tigh & Tyrol were on the Galactica. Anders was high up in the mountains on Caprica with his fellow Buccaneers teammates (such as Jean Barolay, etc.) Tory...who knows.
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was mediocre. Who cares what it explained? I want quality entertainment, like the previous 2 episodes. Not, mumble jumbled explanations. Here's hoping they get back on track again.
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A huge fucking space battle since there really hasn't been a good one since Exodus part 2.
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otherwise how would they have known where there were even 12 Colonies?? When the Earth-Cylons left Kobol, the humans were still 1 giant colony. So unless they just got lucky, The Five went to Kobol, studied up the history somehow found directions where the 12 Colonies were. They probably built that Beacon too.
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"wasn’t the Temple of Five on the Algae Planet constructed 4,000 years ago? 400 years before the members of the 13 colonies fled Kobol?"
Oh no. You've discovered that the writers are making it up as they go along, and don't have a master plan which explains it all.
I guess you'll just have to become one of those people who loves a TV show but doesn't dare think too much about what he's watching. Disengage that brain, pronto.
Then you can take that same brain-dead mentality, and watch wrestling. Or Fox News. -
Feb 20, 2009 4:46:37 AM CST
how did the Kobolians know the constellations of Cylon-Earth?
by boomers_lips
If they never heard from them again? and why did they program it's location into that Tomb of Athena planetarium holo-room?
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over at the BSG wiki, they have an extensive & thorough timeline of the events of the show, up to "No Exit". http://en.BattlestarWiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)
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Woe BSG. Ron Moore didn't really know how to explain all this and he found a willing hack to explain it all for him.
Where Ron Moore's writing is flawless and brings surprises that seem like they were always there just waiting to be discovered... Jane just invents things out of whole cloth. And the difference is that, well, Ron's writing was great and hers just sucks. -
If someone travelled from Earth to Kobol 3000 years ago (as pointed out in that timeline) and gave them the constellations then, they would have changed by the current time, meaning the map would be obsolete. You'd have to know how old the map was and know the movements of the stars to even attempt to calculate where the stars are now. (if my astronomy knowledge is correct!)
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Hotdog, upon seeing Ellen & Boomer: "how many dead chicks are out there?" the preview also shows Tory insisting that all the Cylons leave the fleet and have the original 13th tribe survive in it's purest form, Ellen and Tigh taking off each others clothes, making out on a table, and then it ends with Ellen asking Saul if he "fraked" and it ends with Ellen finding out Saul got Caprica-Six pregnant.
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Gota love that line!
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I can see the red tail lights, heading for Spai-ee-ee-een.
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Feb 20, 2009 7:16:00 AM CST
Last week's episode broke the "show, don't tell" rule of storyte
by tonagan
And how!
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....although it might be the clouds in my eyes....
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Fingers crossed this becomes the new AICN catchphrase.
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...but in what way we do not know.
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i thought in 'No Exit' it was stated that Kobol humans invented "organic memory transfer"...
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The whole cylon aging process. It hasn't even been brought up on the show, as far as I can tell.
Obviously the models created by the FF don't age. But obviously the FF DO age, since they came about through procreation.
So, why did Saul Tigh look like, well, SAUL FRIGGIN' TIGH in the flashback scene on Earth when a dying Ellen tells him everything will be OK and they'll be reborn? Shouldn't he have looked MUCH younger, since he has apparently been known by Bill Adama for 30 years?
And so what if he was given MEMORIES of being a soldier in the first cylon war and his father being a presidential advisor? SO FRAKKIN' WHAT? Does that mean he can just waltz into the army immediately with these memories and they're going to just accept them, even though there would be no records of his memories and no eyewitnesses to corroborate ANYTHING that he claims to remember?
I'm assuming that Cavill placed the FF among the humans at various intervals, but it still doesn't come close to explaining the aging discrepancies. They had better address that and at least ATTEMPT to answer this succinctly, or else the whole show will just end up as a spectacular, incredibly well-acted failure that COULD HAVE been one of the best, if not THE best, sci-fi sagas ever broadcast.
I'll be watching and hoping they can get it right. -
...From glen to glen, and down the mountain sideThe summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying'tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide.But come you back when summer's in the meadowOr when the valley's hushed and white with snow'tis I'll be there in sunshine or in shadowOh Danny boy, oh Danny boy, I love you soSo says Ellen Tigh! :-)
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bwahahahhahahaha :P
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so Tigh ages? so what?
The Cylons from Earth were reproducing sexually, so obviously they weren't *born* as adults, were they?
Obviously the Final Five age normally, then they resurrect. For the sake of convenience they resurrect as adults but there's no reason to think they couldn't adjust the age of the clone body...
The more interesting question you raise is how Cavill managed to provide corroboration for Tigh's backstory. That to me seems like a much more difficult thing to accept than Cylon aging. -
The Temple of Five was left behind when the 13th colony made its way to Earth. The Final Five left a message there on their way back.
Anders was a pyramid player -- apparently a (locally) famous one. They weren't dropped off moments before the attack, they'd been there for awhile. I'm sure it took Cavil time to get his plan into action. -
said the Joker to the Thief. There's just too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
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4000 years isn't that long a time for star motion to make a huge difference in constellation makeup. But that still doesn't answer how the pythia info got back to Kobol. Although:
4000 years ago the 13th tribe leaves
2000 years ago the other 12 colonies leave
2000 years ago Earth goes kablooie
40 years ago the Final Five reach the Cylons
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so if it takes 2000 years roughly to travel back to Kobol from Earth, maybe the arrival of someone/something from Earth caused the colonists to leave Kobol? That's when the prophecies came with the directions to Earth. Maybe ...
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Good insight regarding Anders.BTW Temple of Five was originally the Temple of Hopes, according to Ellen.Hopefully(excuse the pun), the focus on that temple is a sign of good things to come, especially for Anders' when it comes to his bullet wound.
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That's not what I'm getting at. I accept the aging completely. As I said before, obviously no one gave birth to a fully-grown Saul Tigh, so they HAVE to age if procreation is inovlved. No problems with that.
What DOESN'T make sense are the aging discrepancies, i.e. why Tigh in the flashback on Earth with Ellen looked exactly like the Tigh we see today (except with two eyes). It DOES make sense that the age of the resurrected bodies could be adjusted, which could explain why Tigh appeared younger when placed among the humans of the twelve colonies, but then that brings up a whole new slew of problems, i.e. why would any cylon (thinking of Ellen, in particular) want to be resurrected with an older body? The whole thing just reeks of "made-it-up-as-we-went-along-itis," which is fine, as long as it can be satisfactorily explained by the show's end.
And another thing - does Cavill age? Ellen referred to him as a "boy." Was that a metaphorical reference or a literal one? If Cavill ages, then it's logical to assume that he eventually dies, too. And yet, every time he resurrects, it's back in the old body that he seems to despise. If they CAN alter the age of the clone bodies, why wouldn't he come back as a younger version of himself? It makes my head hurt. -
I've given up.
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Is there or isn't there one? It's been referenced in the series. It was referenced in the first episode and it was referenced when the first resurrection ships were explained. It was said they were necessary when cylons were "too far away from their homeworld" to resurrect. So, is there a frakkin' cylon home world or not? What is it? Is it this "colony" that was mentioned last week? If there IS a cylon home world, why did they even WANT to find Earth in the first place?
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But I can't get my head around the Lords of Kobol factor. Without more info there's no way to complete the thought.
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Nothing new.
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Feb 20, 2009 9:26:36 AM CST
betcha Earth WAS the former AND current Cylon homeworld...
by the shyster
and Cavill duped them all into thinking they had a glorious Cylon homeworld waiting for them when their crusade against the humans was over.
and thennnn... let's say Cavill won, killed all humans, and the Cylons "went home", only to have Cavill show the Centurians & the Skinjobs the remains of Earth (because the FF let it slip that's why they went back) and say that he had purposely misled the Cylons to achieve vengeance for their ancestors & their destruction... (hoping they won't rise up & kill him) after they see the humans as the original instigators
thennnnn... decided to settle on the former 12 colonies (or Kobol, for that matter) to end (in his eyes) the cycle of violence and begin a new era in Cylon history: organic to synthetic machine life transfer technology!
too bad he did'nt factor on the awesomeness that is Bill 'Husker' Adama ;) -
how you gonna let a bitch who snaps a baby's neck... HAVE A BABY (oh wait, that's right, you won't ;)
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Bring it, biatches!!! I want me some BSG right NOW!!!!
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Excellent point.Like Gaeta and Zarek, it seems Caprica would have to receive comeuppance for her actions too.
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but I did'nt like it. There were duplicitous reasons, whatever they were, for her doing it, but ultimately... she could've turned & switched sides, and escaped with that baby, knowing what was coming. Hell, fight & die protecting her, do something. Oh wait, that's right, you're a frakkin' machine slut who does whatever she's programmed.
That is my basic thought process for all things Six : (and thanks!) -
RE: Galactica's Viper display; Galactica CAG: "Lt. Thrace is being replaced in the slot by Lt. Anders" wtf?! is the name Anders like "Smith" or "Williams" in Galactica world? :P
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unanswered. Really wish that they would have tied more up last week. They really need to concentrate on the Kara situation and the rest of the crew. Too many people to leave behind. I really would like to know about the age issue.
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Is that from BSG? It sounds more like a line Sawyer is going to be saying to Jack sometime soon.
So say we all. -
Feb 20, 2009 10:31:41 AM CST
Anders: "This happened...and this...then this...blahblahblah..."
by spyguy
Fuck me, it was like the script bible exploded and sprayed plot points around like shrapnel.
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they're both "artists" (remember that bullshit about starbuck being a closet painter?), maybe daniel is the "male starbuck"
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I still believe the Kobolians came from Earth to begin with.
Trivial BSG fact - did you know the 8th Squadron on the Galactica is the Wild Aces/Aces & Eights? Aces & Eights is a reference to Wild Bill Hickock...look it up cocksuckers. -
Earth-flashback Saul Tigh's age is irrelevant, as Ellen tells him, "...everything is in place. we'll be reborn..." blah-blah. So that Tigh could have been 15 or 50, the question is what age was he resurrected at? And if they travelled for 2000 years, did they carry a resurrection hub and just continually resurrect, age, die, and resurrect for all those years until they reached their destination? Or were they immortal until Cavill got his hands on them and resurrected them into bodies that would age (maybe to punish them for their desire to be more human, and to more easily hide them in the human race)?
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They travelled from Earth at just below the speed of light, for them time came to a near standstill while 2000 years passed by for the rest of the universe.
They've done this many times on our spacecraft. They take two atomic clocks, set them to the same time, then put one on a spacecraft. The clock on the spacecraft comes back behind the one left here. Time slows down the faster you go, even though the ship you are on is moving really fast. -
human or cylon.
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I suppose those answers were needed, but I just want a kick ass ending to the series.
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Maybe if it were in the second season, but gushing it out 5 episodes before the series finale is hopelessly nerdish and/or making up for about 15 episodes of Season 3/early 4 nothingness.
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"No Exit" served a dual purpose. First, it allowed them to get a lot of questions answered all at once. From the podcast for the episode, it sounds like the writers felt drawing it out over several episodes wouldn't work very well. Secondly, it allowed them to make an episode with a smaller budget, again from the podcast. They wanted to save up the dough for the finale.
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"Well, I'll be." "So that's what those are for."
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If the Cylons were doing experiments on humans and eventually acquired resurrection technology, could they not manipulate the genetic code and
turn ON and OFF the aging gene?
Therefore when we see a young Tigh meet Adama perhaps he was designed as a younger version from the Tigh genetic template.
Ellen kinda refers to this in the last episode when she suggests that John Cavil was a "boy" at one point... now it is unclear if she was talking literally, meaning that Cavil was "born" as a child... or if she was speaking figuratively, meaning Ellen designed Cavil based on her own father and even though he was "born" as an adult, she sees him as her surrogate "child".
That becomes kinda weird unto itself with Electra and Oedipal overtones.
Anyway, just thinking out loud. Overall I like the explanation Moore and the gang have come up with even if it is a overly convoluted - they could have streamlined the historical/ancient events a little more. -
For the sake of clarity that is.
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I think that is likely, especially considering Cavil's comment about "turning off" his need to sleep by altering his programming.
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Well, RDM may share in that memory.
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I think its simple - they've got a bunch of empty bodies on the ressurection ship, that have been grown / manufactured to be whatever age is desired. In the case of the eight "skinjob" models that don't age, the empty bodies for them will always be the same. In the case of the "final five" models - they could either keep all of those empty bodies with the same physical age (so that even as the final 5 age, if they get killed they resurrect back into a body of a fixed age) or they can manufacture bodies that are age appropriate so that when the dead final 5 cyclon downloads, he gets ressurected back into a body that corresponds to his most recent age. Of course, if the later is true I have no idea how they deal with resurrection from deaths that result from old age - eventually you'd be reborn only to die again right away because your body's age would be impractically high.
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If it took the Five ~2000 years to return from Earth at sublight speeds, it would also have taken around that long to go out from Kobol to colonize Earth in the first place. Give or take a couple centuries for the colony to be established, mature a bit, and then self-destruct....Another way to think of it might be:Keeping in mind that all the colonies leaving Kobol had only sublight capability, they could have all left at the same time, in different directions. For simplicity, assume the 12 went generally in the same direction, and the 13th went the opposite. Then, they each could have traveled about 1000 years worth, then had about 1000 years "in place". The Five, when they left at the Zero + 2000 years mark, would have needed (at sublight speed) a full 2000 years to transit back past Kobol (1000 year trip) and then on to the Colonies (another 1000 years).Something else that all this lengthy travel may imply is that the Five were not downloaded into bodies immediately after the holocaust on earth, but were stored (boxed, even) until certain points on their long journey (maybe at Kobol, maybe at the Algae planet). They probably planted the Virus Laden Probe to block the Earth Version of Rebel Centurions from following them.It might even imply that the original colonists for the 12 were ALSO stored in the same fashion for their trip. This would mean that their fundamental nature is the same as the Five.And that might be why the Five's resurrection tech will work for anyone.... (and could explain Starbuck)
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2000-4000 years ago, the fundamental questions are Why and How Was It Used.The fundamental answer may be very simple: Space Colonization at Sub-light Speed. Download everyone into digital storage, send ships out in many directions that will seek worlds with suitable environments and raw materials. If the ships could not be large enough to carry all the clone bodies, which is probable, they could instead be engineered to construct the clone bodies from materials they find upon arrival.This probably conflicts with the Story of the Twelve Colonies' Journey in the scrolls if it describes their long journey's in detail, with stops along the way. But if it is vague on the journey itself, this might work.
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I know a lot of y'all didn't like last week but I did and can't wait for the new episode. sucks can't watch it til Sunday.
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Maybe she was a Cylon resurrected into a human body.
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Feb 20, 2009 1:02:50 PM CST
No, I think Tigh was just a lot younger when he was planted on E
by archive
If you need an explanation for why Ellen Tigh is old after the resurrection, then let it be Cavill's sadistic need to let her keep her scars. On the other hand, "You got her pregnant?" is exactly what Ellen Tigh would say if she found out Saul had gotten with Six in her absence. She's more concerned with his lack of sense than his infidelity to her memory, for sure.
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Starbuck is a copy of an original Cylon from old Kobol, before they lost resurrection technology. A spare could have been kept for 4000 years.
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The guy emerged from the vat with a scowl on his face and some booze in his hand. Accept it.
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an even earlier iteration of the human/cylon conflict. "all of this has happened before..." and all the visions suggest that there's an even older group of players who are interfering in events. They're the ones who warned the Final Five back on earth, they're the ones who put the visions of the Five in the Temple of Hopes, they're the ones who put the holograms in the Tomb of Athena, they're the ones behind Baltar and Sixs visions, and they're the ones who resurrected Starbuck...
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Kobol was Ground Zero for everything, right? All 13 tribes lived there at first?
Then the 13th tribe left Kobol and set up shop on Earf?
Earf gets blown up, but the Final Five resurrect their way out and go back to Kobol, looking for the first 12 colonies. The 12 colonies already left Kobol, so the Final five go looking for them, and find them on Caprica, in the middle of the Human/Cylon war. This is the war that happened 50-ish years before the miniseries.
Have I got that all right? It frustrates me that they waited until right before the series ends to dump all this info on us. -
"The five also created John Cavil, who was modeled after Ellen’s Cylon dad.
Cavil killed the five, then resurrected them with false memories. He kept the five’s identities secrets from the Leoben, D'Anna, Simon, Doral, Six and Sharon models."
actually, the discussion about daniel between ellen and cavil lead me to believe that all 7 models were created before the final 5 were killed by john cavill. But since none of the other models knew the identities of the final 5, i have a feeling cavil may have killed or erased memories of the original models.
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They're 4 feet tall but with the strength of 5 gorillas.
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Cavil putting his brain in a robot body would be a HUGE hat tip to TOS. Very cool IMHO.
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that starbuck is the first hybrid of man/cylon
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Anyway, he was a doctor on CSI last nite. Haven't seen him in a awhile.
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not enough answers about aging, not enough info, not enough dialogue...aren't we a whiny bunch?
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age discrepancies? Easy. Starbuck said she felt like her body was an alien thing earlier this season. Obviously resurrection takes its toll, so they try to keep the current copies aged at the same rate as the current generation to make the transitions earlier. eventually you get to cavils age and they'll have to scrap the remaining empties and start a new batch, and when the old cavils die they'd go into young bodies, but i'll be a harder transition.
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that should say "transitions EASIER"
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Feb 20, 2009 2:43:13 PM CST
"The Five's Ressurection Tech could work for Anyone human or cyl
by cpt. tim
you assume there are humans on the show. the scrolls say the 13th tribe looked up and say their BROTHERS. brothers being the 12 colonies. not masters. the 12 colonies are also bio cylons from kobol, they just don't know it yet. remember, the 12 colonies had masters on kobol that they rebelled against.
kara thrace came back because she has the same hardware in her DNA that the final five have. its the same hardware everyone has. this is who knows what iteration of the same cycle. -
that they could, in fact, be fundamentally the same. Which is WHY the resurrection tech could then work for all off them (whatever "label" they have applied to themselves).
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Feb 20, 2009 2:52:49 PM CST
Don't believe this crap that the producers had this all planned!
by hellking
We're in the age of Lost... literally. These producers are just throwing shit in to awe and shock people. They didn't have an idea what they were doing planned an ending in regards to story until they knew when the series would end. You're going to find a lot of holes in the story throughout.
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Wow. Lots to read through. I don't think Starbuck is Daniel. I just don't think it makes much sense. My theory is that Starbuck is like Hera. I think she's half Cylon. All this has happened before and will happen again. Starbuck's mom was military. Maybe she had an affair with Tigh? Maybe Hera and Starbuck can resurrect because they are half-Cylon, but not the way the others do because they are half-human?
I agree with the other poster that said that though we understand that the final five can age, Tigh should have been younger in the scene on Earth.
I recap the show every weekend. This is last week's: http://tinyurl.com/b7meh5
Gonna get started on tonight's in a bit.
The main question I'm looking forward to get an answer to is, "Who switched on the final four?!" -
If Kara were resurrected, fine, whatever. But then, how do we explain her new viper? Where the hell did that come from? Do they have a resurrection ship for those too? There's some huge piece we're missing (this has been brought to you by Captain Obvious).
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"Where the hell did that come from? Do they have a resurrection ship for those too?"
yes because we haven't seen cylons using colonial ships yet in the series, except in seasons 1, 2, 3, and 4. -
Boy, you guys can't masturbate fast enough to the "FTL jumped the shark!!!111!!!oneone!!!1!!" comments, can you?
Here's what's going on in BSG. If anyone sees an inaccuracy or illogical assumption, please point it out.
The timeline of BSG is best explained in terms of creation of Cylons. There are 10 types (not referring to model) of Cylons revealed in BSG so far.
#1. Kobol Skinjob Cylons: created over 4,000 years ago by Kobol Humans (who were expelled from Kobol for creating them). The 13th tribe of Kobol. Later settled on Earth to create the second and third types of Cylons. All the Cylons who were expelled are dead.
#2. Earth Centurion Cylons: created by Skinjob Cylons living on Earth (probably NOT created by Ellen, Tigh, Tory, Anders, and Tyrol). It is unknown as to exactly WHEN they were created. All the Earth Centurion Cylons are Dead.
#3. The Final Five: Born *as* Skinjobs on Earth about 2000 years ago; Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, Anders, and Ellen. Resurrected after Earth's destruction. Traveled to Earth and helped Colonial Centurions (#5 type) create Colonial Skinjobs (#8 type Cylons- Cavil, Leoben, D'anna, Doral, Simon, Caprica Six, Daniel, Boomer/Athena). Killed by Cavil, who re-resurrected them, erased their memories and introduced them into the fleet. Of these Five, Ellen died, was re-re-resurected.
#4. Caprica Skinjob Cylons: Created by Daniel Greystone and his daughter Zoe about 50 years ago (Zoe's friend insists that the One True God gave Zoe the knowledge to create life). Created after Earth was destroyed, but before the Final Five arrived on Earth, and before the Colonial Centurions (#5). As far as we know, the only Caprican Cylon is Zoe-R, a replication of Zoe Graystone. As the series hasn't even aired yet, much less finished, there is much left to learn, and it may well be that other Caprican Cylons exist.
#5. Colonial Centurions: Created by Daniel Graystone (and possibly others)about 50 years ago. Not much is known about their origin. These Centurions roughly resembled Earth Centurions (#2), and presumably were the first *Cylons* to worship the One True God (though there were Capricans who worshipped a One True God. Also, Ellen says that belief in the One True God came from Centurions, but she may have been referring to Earth Centurions, or both Earth and Colonial Centurions). These models evolved into the current Centurions, Raiders, and Heavy Raiders most commonly seen in fights with Galactica, Pegasus, and their crews.
#6. THE Hybrid/The Old Hybrid: Origin and date of origin unknown. Likely created by Colonial Centurions, but may be another Daniel Graystone creation. Might be the One True God. Might be Daniel Graystone.
#7. Ship Hybrids: Created by Colonial Centurions after the creation of the Old Hybrid, but before Colonial Skinjobs (#8). Function as the brain of the ships. These cylons speak in jibberish that often proves prophetic.
#8. Colonial Skinjobs: Created about forty years ago by the Final Five for the Colonial Centurions. Cavil, Leoben, D'anna, Doral, Simon, Caprica Six, Daniel, and Boomer/Athena. Colonial Centurions as well as Cavil helped create Colonial Skinjobs, though what degree of influence they had in helping the Final Five in creating this type is uncertain. Of the Colonial Skinjobs, the "Daniel" model is presumably dead and destroyed (though this model might actually be a cylon version of Daniel Graystone, or possibly Starbuck, or Starbuck's father, or Zak Adama).
#9. Human/Colonial Skinjob Hybrid- Hera. Born of Helo (human) and Athena (Colonial Skinjob).
#10. Final Five/Colonial Skinjob Hybrid- Tigh and Caprica Six's unborn child.
Now for answers to questions:
Q: Is Admiral Adama/Lee/Starbuck the dying leader?
A: No. None of these candidates 1) are suffering from a wasting disease or 2) saw a vision of serpents. Only Roslin qualifies as the dying leader.
Q: Why did Tigh age?
Explanation: There's nothing to indicate that manipulating Tigh's age is impossible or even difficult. This is not a continuity error. At no point has it been said that any of the Cylons DON'T age. Cavil may simply have introduced a re-resurrected Tigh in his 20s-40s. Since the science behind creating Skinjobs has yet tobe explained, we must simply assume that manipulating age is possible.
Q: If they were so advanced, why didn't Earth have FTL technology?
A: Why does Japan make better electronics and Finland makes better phones? Again, this is not a continuity error. Some cultures simply do better jobs at creating certain things. It may be that space travel was less important to Earth, who had no neighbors (unlike the 12 colonies, who had to travel through space to see each other). You don't expect superiority in EVERY field of acheivement to be held by a single culture in real life, so why are applying such a standard to the show?
Q: Why are the Colonial Centurions following Colonial Skinjobs? Remember last season? A six named Natalie, along with the Leobens and Sharons wanted to STOP Cavil from lobotomizing Raiders and inhibiting the thoughts of Centurions. Cavil mysteriously opposed this... NOW we realize that Cavil knew what happened to Earth Cylons and Earth Centurions. Cavil wanted to inhibit Centurions and Raiders because he did not want a repeat of Earth (or the 12 Colonies, for that matter).
Q: Aren't the Final Five actually humans who cloned themselves?
A: No. The Final Five were BORN Cylon. Everyone on Earth was a Cylon. Earthlings are the descendants of the Cylons who were expelled from Kobol, also called the 13th tribe. Tigh, Ellen, Tory, Anders, and Tyrol were all BORN on Earth and were thus Cylons BEFORE they died, and were resurrected to look for the other 12 tribes.
Q: Were there any humans on Earth before it was destroyed?
A: No. The first humans to set foot on Earth came from Galactica.
Q: Why did Ellen create the Earth Centurion Cylons?
A: There is NO evidence to suggest that any of the Final FIve had anything to do with the creation of any Centurions.
Q: What's the deal with the timeline? Did the exodus from Kobol and the destruction of Earth happen at the same time?
A: Yes. According to Tyrol's statement on the Algae Planet, the 13th tribe left 1,600-2,000 years BEFORE the other 12 colonies left. Why this happened is unclear. As such, around the time Earth was destroyed, the 12 colonies left Kobol. It may be that the gods, or perhaps the One True God, expelled the humans from Kobol BECAUSE Earth was destroyed. Zeus warned the humans not to return. The goddess Athena also committed suicide at this point in time. Alternately, it may be that the humans left Kobol and then returned, only to be booted out again.
Alternately, it may be that returning to Kobol was PART of the Cycle that happens again and again (most recently when the 12 colonies led by Adama and Roslin left to find their new home).
Q: Was Adama's memory changed? Why did he see Tigh 20 years ago if Tigh was a Cylon?
A: Adama DID NOT have his memory changed. Cavil introduced the Final FIve gradually. Tigh was reintroduced in a younger before shortly after the end of Cylon War 1 almost 40 years ago.
Q: How did the Final Five survive Earth's holocaust?
A: They didn't. They died, and were resurrected on a spaceship were copies of them were waiting. When they awoke in the ship, they left Earth's system for the 12 colonies to warn them of disaster.
Q: Wait a sec. How is it that the Temple of Five/Hopes was created 4,000 years ago when the 13th tribe left 3600 years ago.
A: There are 2 answers. First, the 3600 figure is for when the Pythian Prophecy was written, NOT necessarily when the 13th tribe left. It may be the 13th tribe left 4000 years ago, but was not recorded until Pythia 3600 years ago. Second answer: There is no definitive proof that the 13th tribe built the Temple of Five/Hopes.
Q: How did Cavil sneak the FF into society?
A: Unknown. Here's some speculation: Cavil may have chosen to give Tigh a background involved with the Brenik BECAUSE there were so few survivors in that battle.
Q: How did the 13th Tribe see the other tribes in Constellations.
A: Take your pick: 1. It's metaphorical, like telling someone far away that you are both looking at the same sky. 2. The 13th tribe knew where the other tribes would go if they were ever to leave Kobol.
Q: Who is Daniel?
A: This is unknown, but some things can be said about Daniel. First, the exclusions: Daniel CANNOT be Baltar. Baltar has been told by Head 6 that he is not a Cylon. She may have lied, but even if she did, Baltar is known to Ellen and Anders, neither of whom mentioned Baltar being Daniel when they were questioned. Also, Cavil killed the #7 line out of jealousy, yet he could have killed Baltar immediately following the Caprica invasion when Baltar was a puppet figure (though he did suggest doing so at one point, there was no jealousy evident there, simply a desire to send a message to New Capricans about authority).
So who is Daniel? Ron Moore's Podcast said that Daniel would feature in Caprica. We already know that the Caprican Skinjobs creator (no, not Ellen or the FF. They came later.) is named Daniel Graystone, who took his daughter's technology of creating life (actually creating a perfect copy of a human personality/mind/soul) and applied it to organic bodies (Pre-FF Skinjob Cylons). This guy is most likely Daniel. We know that Ellen, Tigh, Anders, Tory, and Tyrol created Cylon copies of themselves. We know that Daniel Graystone created a copy of his daughter. Thus, it seems entirely plausible that a Cylon version of Daniel Greystone was created as #7, and was killed by Cavil.
Other legitimate possibilities:
-Daniel is Starbuck's father. Evidence? Not much. Starbuck's father is an artist, as was Daniel.,p>
-Daniel is Starbuck. Possible as Daniel's genetic soup was corrupted by Cavil Evidence? Starbuck is an artist. Starbuck has returned from the dead. Evidence to the contrary: No one knows how the hell Starbuck returned. If Starbuck IS Daniel, then she is probably a pawn of Cavil.
-Daniel is Starbuck AND is Daniel Graystone. If Graystone was #7, it is posible Kara is just a realignment of genes and chromosomes.
-Daniel is Starbuck's father AND Daniel Grasytone. Now it's just getting silly.
-Daniel is Zak Adama. Extremely unlikely. If this is so, then the only explanation is that someone swapped Zak Adama with Daniel at a VERY young age, fooling Admiral Adama and his wife.
-Daniel is simply Daniel. He is not a copy of anyone already mentioned or seen on this show or in the upcoming Caprica series, and is simply a throwaway character created to fill in a plothole/continuity error. Evidence: Ron Moore admits that there was a plot hole in the Cylon numbering. He states that he DID NOT want the show to turn into "who is the 13th Cylon?" Oops. Guess you gave your audience too much credit.
Now the REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS (that are unanswered.
-Who is the One True God? Is it Daniel Graystone? The Old Hybrid? The jealous lord of kobol? Moreover, were there ever any Lords of Kobol, or are they lies as suggested by the Cylons? Which of the two theologies are correct, or rather which gods/God were malevolent and which were beneficent?
-Who or what is Starbuck? Was she always an oddity, or did it happen after her death? Is her father a Cylon, or perhaps the One True God?
-Who and what are the visions seen by Baltar, Caprica Six, Starbuck, and the Final Five? Are they angels, as suggested by Anders? Are they malevolent devils or Angels?
-Why did the Final Five awaken, and what does the music mean?
-What happened to Daniel Graystone, Zoe-R, and any other Caprica Skinjobs?
-What is the mystery of the Operahouse?
-Why is Hera so Special? Is it simply because she is a half-breed, or is there more to it than that? Why does she feature so heavily in th eoperahouse visions? Is the Tigh/Six baby similarly revered?
-Why did Doral want Lee to board the Galactica?
-Does Zak Adama return from the dead, and if so, how?
-Was "The Plan" to teach the Final Five a lesson in parenting?
-Why is Kara called the harbinger of death and the herald of the Apocalypse who will "lead them all to their end"? Was that a warning that Kara would lead them to the destroyed Earth, or does it mean that Kara's return will literally destroy everyone? Does this prophecy mean that Kara will end the Cycle (for good or for bad)?
-What is "the Promised Land" as foretold by the Old Hybrid, and why is it that he prophecies destruction AND reaching the promised land? Moreover, who or what is the Angel referred to when the Old Hybrid said that they would reach the Promised Land "gathered on the Wings of an Angel"?
My guess is that Starbuck was a diversion sent by some force to stop the fleet from reaching the promised land (not Earth). But who knows? -
...there are a lot of whinging little bitches here. As I said last week, you should be _savoring_ these episodes. Most serial dramas with elaborate mythologies never bother to explain them at all! Be glad that RDM at least is coming up with answers for you! Oh, and for everyone theorizing about Daniel, STARBUCK IS NOT DANIEL. In fact, we probably won't see Daniel at all until The Plan, or possibly even Caprica. Over on Bear McCreary's blog, he also told his readers in the comments that they're reading FAR too much into Daniel.
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...in childhood - way earlier than the final five, which likely makes her something else IMHO.Also, since resurrection technology was called the gods' fire and because Kara had visualized the vortex that was the maelstrom from her youth, died there, then came back from the dead with that brand spanking new viper, she may very well be a Lord of Kobol - albeit the crazy one, maybe even the original Athena from Kobol.
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sweet frakking christ, tai_pan, i've never seen such a thorough post. must have taken you half a day to type that up.
good job, though. your reasoning is impressive.
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Daniel Graystone _cannot_ be 7-Daniel. Daniel Graystone created the Colonial Centurion Cylons. As we learned last week, the Colonial Skin-job Cylons were not created until the First Cylon War was already finished as an incentive for the Centurion Cylons to end the war.
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A few weeks back I reached the mistaken conclusion that the Final Four had regained their memories on Earth and were quietly misleading and sabotaging the humans...wrong. They're more of Cavil's sleepers, same as the Significant Seven, but at a more subtle level. After all, why kill off the Final Five only to bring them back with fake memories?
I'm certain Tyrol has (unaware to himself...maybe he sleepwalks) damaged the Galactica in order to shoehorn Cylon technology onto the command ship itself. Note that Ellen Tigh is also dancing to his tune...anyone else think it was a bit of a "coincidence" that the Number Eight who assisted her escape was introduced by Cavil himself? -
Sweet Baby Jesus Titty Fucking Christ
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http://movies.ign.com/articles/953/953459p1.html
ORIGINAL BSG! -
You're forgetting something. Zoe Graystone. Zoe died, and was resurrected as Zoe-R. Daniel Graystone might be Model #7 "Daniel" BECAUSE he might be a Zoe-R style Caprica Skinjob Cylon. While it is true that Colonial Skinjobs ("Type #8") did not exist until the FF appeared, there were Caprica Skinjobs ("Type #4") that existed before the FF arrived during Cylon War 1. Therefore, Daniel Graystone_COULD_ have been resurrected as Colonial Skinjob Model #7. This is further evidenced because RDM said that #7 Daniel would feature in the "Caprica" TV Show, As such, Daniel is most likely a Cylon version of Daniel Graystone (again, "Daniel" might simply be a throwaway character to fill in a plothole)..
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http://tinyurl.com/apkgar
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Feb 20, 2009 4:34:30 PM CST
how'd Kara get a brand new Viper, wedding ring, & dogtags?
by boomers_lips
her supposed dead body on Cylon-Earth had all of those things + a the same tattoo (okay we didn't actually see that)!?? when she rejoined the fleet in "He That Believeth In Me" she had all those things too!
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Wouldn't that necessitate labeling Zoe as Model 14 then?
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really? Does Glen Larson need some kind of validation after Moore and co. put the original series to shame? How can this be anything but tripe? Really, why bother?
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Cavil is on his way to destroy them all. Last few episodes should be good.
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This is my first time reviewing the early episodes after being enlightened in the last episode and I've got to say that I've got some clearer ideas about what's going on and who might be behind the "visions in the head" some of our characters have experienced.
Some of the early conversations with Leoben and Kara are making more sense and I think we might be in for a big twist before it's all over.
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No, it would not. There are 13 Colonial Skinjob Models. There is 1 KNOWN Caprcia Skinjob model (Zoe-R). There were Billions of Kobol Skinjob Cylons. If we were to lump all different types of Cylons together, then there would be Billions of Cylon models. Instead, "model", as used on the show, refers solely to Type #8 Cylons (we know this because Zoe-R predates any Colonial Skinjob Cylons). Keep in mind that the FF were resurrected as Type #8s after they were gassed by Cavil.
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A decent fanon rationalization, though I still don't like it. The way Ellen talked about Daniel implied that he was their creation, not grandfathered in somehow.
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I agree to some extent. Larson has to feel terribly inadequate compared to Moore and Co. ... of course, I'm sure that the boatloads of money to be made from the BSG rights aren't hurting his decision, either. Whether opportunist or jealous petulant, I've got no love for that guy.
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is she an actual SkinJob or just an A.I. Holographic projection in that show??
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It's not fanon. First off, I never said who Daniel is. It isn't fanon until it is stated as fact by fans and shows up in fanfiction (otherwise, ANY specualtion could be deemed "fanon").
Second, RDM said Daniel is a player in the Caprica series. That being the case, it is most likely that Daniel is either is Daniel Graystone. It could be that Daniel is, indeed, a throwaway character, but that doesn't fit well with Moore's statement that Daniel would show up in the Caprica TV show.
There are only 13 models because Moore, Ryan and Espensen said there are only 13 models. That's not fanon, that's fact. -
Both. Zoe created a digital representation of her personality called Zoe-A. Daniel Graystone took Zoe-A and applied it to a cybernetic life-form to create Zoe-R, the first and only known (as of this writing) Caprica Skinjob Cylon (see Type #4).
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after discovering she was a Final Fiver, the Tory character became a killer, slut & a bigger bitch than all of the Sixes! She fucks Starbucks man, she then fucks Baltar and she tries to fuck Tyrol then she tries to fuck Anders again! She kills Cally and now she wants all Cylobs to abandon the humans. What gives?!??
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YOu didnt need 30 paragraph explanations to discuss this show?
Example- Wow- is baltar mental or do the Cylons have a chip in his head?
And it was fun to debate/ wonder about?
Now we get to see some of the most ridiculous ret-conning explanations for things that made no sense in the first place.
Personally, I think Baltar was bat shit nuts.
Go season 1!! -
if they need a stronger power source and if they're so smart, what's keeping them from inventing ZPM's (Zero Point Modules). They last more than 10,000 years (possibly more). With a ZPM installed on their ships they could get to another galaxy in less than 30 seconds.
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otherwise, ANY specualtion could be deemed "fanon" Umm, that's _precisely_ what fanon is. A fan-authored attempt to explain a concept not fully elucidated in a canon source. "There are only 13 models because Moore, Ryan and Espensen said there are only 13 models. That's not fanon, that's fact."No, that's a retcon. I seem to recall a pivotal moment in the miniseries where Adama finds a note in his quarters that says, "There are only 12 Cylon models." In any case, it could well be that Daniel was based upon a character we'll see in Caprica, but I highly doubt it. Certainly not Daniel Graystone. Just because you are a scientist doesn't mean you are an artist. Making Daniel Graystone the original template for 7-Daniel also completely misses the obvious paternal aspects of Ellen's behavior when talking about Daniel. In any case, I think this discussion is futile, and will continue to be so until at least "The Plan" airs, if not Caprica.
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...you are older than me.
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Interesting observation given your namesake. The only people who are complaining are nerds who haven't taken the time to go through the series looking for answers. The general population and the hardcore fans aren't expressing any mass disapproval. I don't mean to invalidate anyone's opinion. I understand the appeal of the simpler first season, I just personally prefer the complexities. And you don't need huge explanations to understand the show. It's just that some people get certain things and other people don't. Most people have a couple facets of the show they don't understand. When you add everyone's questions up and try to answer everything at once, it looks like the show is really effing difficult. In actuality, most people have a rough sense of what's going on, and any uncertainties aren't hampering their enjoyment of the show (unless they didn't like it in the first place). So cut the show some slack. It's still a forrest even though you can't see all of the trees.
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Well, if your definition of fanon is "fan speculation" then I have no problem with it. I simply dislike that term because my understanding of fanon is not simple fan specualtion, but that fanon is fan speculation *taken or stated as fact*. Which I don't feel describes anything I posted.
"No, that's a retcon." So what? What is retconned is no longer fact?
"I seem to recall a pivotal moment in the miniseries where Adama finds a note in his quarters that says, 'There are only 12 Cylon models.'" So what? Do you know who wrote the note? Most people believe Baltar wrote it, but whoever wrote it, we have no way of knowing if that person had any authority or knowledge whatsoever to conclusively state that there are only 12 Cylon models. More importantly, if the Daniels are-in fact- dead, then the note is 100% accurate and there ARE ONLY TWELVE MODELS. No continuity issue whatsoever.
"In any case, it could well be that Daniel was based upon a character we'll see in Caprica, but I highly doubt it. Certainly not Daniel Graystone. Just because you are a scientist doesn't mean you are an artist."---You're assuming a couple of things. First, you are assuming that D.Graystone is not an artist in the Caprica series. That is unknown at this time. Next, you're assuming that simply because Graystone was not an artist on Caprica (again, that's assumption) that the Daniel created by the FF wouldn't be an artist. What do you base that assumption on? What RDM has said about Daniel is that he didn't want the show to turn into "who is Daniel" and that Daniel would be a player on the Caprica show.
"Making Daniel Graystone the original template for 7-Daniel also completely misses the obvious paternal aspects of Ellen's behavior when talking about Daniel. " Now you're assuming that Ellen couldn't feel "paternal" towards a Daniel Graystone replication. What exactly is your basis for that assumption? Also, I might point out that Ellen seems quite motherly towards Cavil, who has been nothing but a total dick to her since Cavil resurrected her. AND Cavil is based on Ellen's father. Isn't that a double standard within your theory? Why is there a problem with Daniel#7 being based on Graystone if Cavil is is based on Ellen's dad? In any event, that entire point of dissent is based off of the *opinion* that "paternal" aspects would be missed (which I don't feel to be the case at all). -
...in the future when tacos were just an idea and turkeys ran the globe with their dark meat of fury one lone chicken rose up and tried to take down the head turkey... for in santas mind this was just a dream but to the rest of the world this was a reality... as time passed the chicken grew stronger and overthrew the head turkey... the new leader of the globe is now a chicken named gobbles... for his parents were half turkey half machine coming together like a sandwich of pastrami and rye no one could take them apart... until one day the previous leader tom the turkey set forth his servants of godzillas size but the mind of a three year old came up with a way to take them apart... go so far into the future where such technology exists and steal the scientists ideas and bring them back to their time... but their plan was thwarted by a 3 legged bunny named lucky... for lucky could read the past and future and forsaw the scientists arrival... knowing this he disembodied his own foot and made it into a laser cannon... but it was to late to reattatch it... turns out he can't see that far into the future.... so he grafted the cannon onto his chest and petitioned people go back in time and fight the chicken/machine beasts.... but the time traveling formula he had come up with overshot them into the year 1930 when the turkeys were ruled by space socks for they were too stupid to realize that the socks mortal enemy was the dryer and that is why it was outlawed... lucky knowing this went back to his time and created an army of feet to stomp out the socks.. again overshooting 1930 he ended up with his army of feet in the year 1844 when there were only cavemen............................. and that is where shoes come from
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...Type up a pilot episode and forward it to [adult swim]. It'll fit in nicely.
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Feb 20, 2009 7:43:09 PM CST
Huh, I thought that was a quote, but some random dude wrote that
by losder
My apologies to HighC on the adultswim board. Thousands and thousands of years ago...
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The scriptures called Athena/8 a "lower demon", so any reference to an angel is probably just to someone fighting on the "good" side (i.e. filthy hu-maans). Probably also to the Gods and One True God, they were probably leaders who died a long time ago on Kobol or went to the colonies but got reveared in scripture over time. This is all starting to make sense, the only 2 things I can't wrap my head around is the differences in in-head characters (some are Cylons: Head 6, and some are not: head Leoben, Baltar)... what are they!? And how was Starbucks viper resurrected! There's no precedence for it.
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I saw it in a documentary called "The Education of Max Bickford".
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OK, so the FF left a message at the Template Of Hopes (Five)... how did they know about the Opera House? It would have been well over 1000 years in their past, beyond their living memory as they procreate and not resurrect. Also their theology is completely different so they wouldn't have had the sacred scrolls like the Colonials did. Of they COULD have but doesn't seem to make sense given the info. Also, related: how did the colonials call the Temple the "Temple Of Five" if the FF only arrived 40 years ago at the colonies. Would only make sense if "The Five" are NOT the FF.
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'Nuff Said.
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yeah, it jumped the FTL into stupid-time. Will still watch, though.
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One of the few black women in space wrote down some mumbo jumbo about a lady in the future who had boob cancer...but this was only the first of many futures that were all the same and had happened before and will happen again...as we saw on new kobol/earth where the back in time/future cylons had already learned to breed and also to regenerate...which was a danger so future back in time cylon she-lady daniel starbuck/manface came to the past/present in her x-wing and blew up the 13th lost tribe of the xenomorph-zions...but this was too late because 5 or 6 of them, no one is sure, had already left to go to the temple of themselves and rewrite the history of space and time...but they weren't done because then they went and stop/started a war with 7 of themselves and together they were 12 or 13... but there were also 12 or 13 tribes and so 1 of the old/young 7 sent 5 or 6 of the 12 to go and live with the 12 or 13 in order to show them what it meant to be human which they already were and knew about...but first he suffocated them and had sex with his mom/daughter several times...but this doesn't matter...this might take a while so you should get some snacks....
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Back when it didn't suck. The first 5 episodes of that show are the best that have ever come out of Adult swim. All the other shows to follow need to pay their respects to the Captain.
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going to be played by MIchael Shanks!
Teal'c will also make an appearance in the last episode where Daniel stares at a cuneiform tablet and successfully translates 'frak'. Upon hearing the meaning of the word, Teal'c ponders quietly and says "indeed."
fade to black.
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I just had a thought about this - Zak is back in the final 3 eps and I was thinking... Starbuck declared bringer of death or something like it by Leoben, she's already been the cause of Zak's death, in a Viper was it not.... was what she saw on 'Earth' some sort of alternate reality where she died and Zak lived ? Has the bringer of death thing already happened ? Rather than still to come ?
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Anyone notice if the number of survivors went down 4 after the 4 were revealed as cylons or not?
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...is Doc Cottle...because I'm still pissed my guess that he was the last of the final five turned out to be wrong...so he must be SOMETHING.
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Seriously, at what point do you just run out of booze? Is Cottle cloning livers or something?
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And no sooner do I wonder than Adama whips out his duty flask.
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but an indignant Saul Tigh is a *sexy* Saul Tigh.
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if I want to stick my finger in his eyehole?
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"I'm out of order! You're out of order! You're all out of order!!"
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You know what that means...
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and after all this time too.
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Don't make me ask you twice. I once killed a man for a can of beanie weenies.
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but this show has gone from a baffling expos-heavy recon episode to this Ugly Betty in space episode. Uggh. Time to blast this show out the airlock.
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This episode is one cat fight away, from turning into a soap opera.
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This episode so far is fucking lame, and no way in hell did Moore choose this cunt to run Caprica that came from up above at SciFi.
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Almost unwatchable. Except for Tigh's power-sander line.
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I liked the "new" Ellen better last episode. I realize that they were pushing the idea that what made the old Ellen her was that ultimately she really was like that deep down. However, while on the baseship she seemed to have a better grasp on the bigger picture and the larger issues.
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I'm thinking Caprica will die during childbirth. Penance for her role in the attack, snapping the baby's neck, etc.
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is going to give birth to an Imperious Leader lizard guy.
...Jane Espenson needs an enema. -
The last ten minutes of this episode was the best part. Can't say it was one of my favorites and it didn't come anywhere close to the last three but the final 10 minutes or so had some good moments and great acting.
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I guess it was setting the stage and preparing for the final act
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Not super impressed with this episode. Still have faith that a big ending is coming though. Better luck next week.
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...made even worse knowing it is one of the final five of the series. What a waste.
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I thought maybe I was just being overly critical. This really did kinda suck, right?
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and have an episode where nothing happens?
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why is this so dull? lifeless? why is this not biulding up to anything?
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Yes Cat it fucking did but expect Herc to come along and delete any negative Espenson comments so it looks like everyone actually enjoyed it. That..THAT was one of the FINAL FIVE EPISODES FFS..and it sucked harder than Herc does on Whedons cock.
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... Six's baby dies? Now that was an episode that didn't make sense.
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I don't know what else to say, I'm very disappointed.
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they obvioulsy did not use the year in between seasons to plan out the final 10 eps...i think these are all filler untill the final 2 episodes.
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That was not a good episode. The last two "complicated" weeks I've been able to follow and be invested in thoroughly. Not so this week. I was struggling to keep track of all the baby babble. And I'm sorry, I hate saying this because he's a phenomenal character, but is any one else just completely sick of Baltar? What is the point of his character anymore? What significance does he have? All his scenes are so stupid. If I had a theory, it would be that, considering they try so hard to make Gaius like Jesus, one of his girls is gonna betray him (Judas style) in the next few episodes. He;s gonna die. Maybe he'll even come back to life like Starbuck. Who the frak knows with this show any more. I'm sad this episode was so lousy.
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This episode, while not that great, did have some critical bits 1) It made Hera the important baby again...speaking of which, where the hell have Helo, Athena, and Hera been most of this season besides a couple "cameos"? 2) It showed that the Cylons are beginning to integrate with the fleet more and are being more human, such as when they started putting pics on the wall 3) It had Baltar return to form with the return of Head Six! 4) It showed that Ellen is still a vindictive, manipulative bitch at her core!
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This was a weak ass episode all around. Cylon Ellen turning into the same bitch she was as her human version. Baltar still getting away with his bullshit. How the fuck did the shit he was spewing to Adama end up with him getting guns. Why the fuck did Tyrol vote to leave?
Did they do that just so there would be a need for a tie breaker? And someone please muzzle that bitch Tory, she was a useless twat as a human and is even more one now. -
Thank God tonight was her last BSG episode, but she's still a producer, fuck! I have a feeling that 2010's CAPRICA will be somewhat like this episodes' writing.
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WHY?
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the opening chapter of the final act.
Remember how when season 4.5 started everyone was complaining how nothing was happening then we got "The Oath" and "Blood on the Scales" which kicked all kind of ass.
This ep opened up a lot of new questions:
Will Baltar's now heavily armed followers be a force for good or evil?
Without the baby to bind them together will Tigh and Caprica stay together?
Will Adama be half in the bag the next time the bad Cylons show up?
Ellen can have moments of humanity but, she really is a poisonous cancer. No wonder Cavil went nuts. With the reverence that the 8s, 6s, and 2s hold for her what kind of trouble will Ellen make for the fleet?
What will the Cylon goo do to Galactica?
Why did the Chief decide to leave Galactica?
Head Six is back and it appears she is up to no good.
Anders' brain apparently rebooted. Does he remember something else?
You will all have to resign yourselves to the fact that there are just not going to be any 'spolsion episodes until the big three hour finale. Ron Moore is keeping his powder dry to blow you away with the conclusion. -
Yes thats lovely we get all of that it's just the manner this was written it belonged more on Days of our Lives (am a Brit did I get that right?)than on BSG. I am wondering if Espenson will be on Mo's blog over at the Chicago Tribune website to explain her Suckage and the decisions behind what exactly compelled her to write such Sucakage with so few episodes left. Perhaps we can talk her out of running Caprica along with asking exactly what she has on TPTB to have landed her the Caprica gig in the first place..
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Feb 20, 2009 10:28:24 PM CST
next week: The Rebel Cylons put Boomer on trial for treason.
by boomers_lips
and Starbuck FINALLY gets off her ass and begins searching for answers.
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But it looks like this episode was just a shitty detour. Because the last few episodes have been mindblowingly awesome. And the next episode looks niiiiiice.
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This episode was amazing, and of course it's building up to something,
Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away? Can you people give this a fucking chance? This was a nuts and bolts episode, another look in the lives and psyches of the humans and the cylons. I can't fucking bear how wishy washy you all are. -
Great job. Keep making up more fake, out-of-nowhere conflicts like "Should the Cylons leave the fleet?" (Tyrol wants to go? REALLY?) and "Let's feed the peasants with cult food" (What the hell--?). Even better, do this when you have a full-memoried, cogent, non-injured Final Five cylon on board the Galactica. The Ellen Tigh shown last episode would have gone "well, obviously, Saul and the others don't have their full memories back. Doc Cottle, let's work on fixing that" but I suppose it's more fun to turn her and Caprica Six into Dynasty characters fighting over which half of Tigh's quarters are ALL THEIRS. Ridiculous.
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Who the fuck cares about that bitch anymore, yet we are going to have an episode centered on her being done for treason....why.... what the fuck purpose would that hold with so few episodes left.You know something I got told by someone very realiable who was in a position to be in the know sometime back a while that BSG would end with everything being retconned in the remaining few epsiodes.To her now all I have to say is I take back calling you a grumpy bitch and telling you to get tit cancer already and just die and for being such a whiny old mare, in doubting the brilliance of those behind this awsome show. Had I countered in the Espenson Suckage factor I might have believed her off the bat.
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so say we all.
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Feb 20, 2009 10:48:54 PM CST
I've watched 75 episodes in 3 weeks to get live for that!
by fuckmichaelbay
Weak-ass-shit!
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Nothing happened.
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First, Thanks for the vote, MJohnson. Being a Cylon, I can just light up through my belly button.
I agree that this was a weak assed episode, except for my scenes and the "My grandfather was a belt sander" line. I had high hopes for Ellen. Maybe her and Tory will get all lesbo on each other. That's an episode I'd like to see.
Where's the black guy? Don't they know that Obama was elected? Too bad South Park beat them to the name "Token".
And that's not tobacco I'm smoking. I roll my own, grow it, too. Look at the facts: I have all the CO2 I need, I've got plenty of lights and plastic curtains. All that's missing are the seeds and stems (which get my own personal ressurection in baked goods).
I just hope this episode was there to let us catch our breath before the Big Goodbye.
Personaly, I'd love to see Glen Larson wrap up his vision on film. I could never get enough of girls with feathered hair! -
That seems rather forced considering his recent actions. I figured his decisions lately have shown that he's accepted who and what he is but that he still cares about Galactica and the fleet.
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what an unsatisfying episode! I screamed "what??" when it was over. That's it? that's all we got this week? What a waste of time with that Baltar storyline, btw.. I guess this whole business with Ellen coming was ok, but it just didn't feel well done. Hey, her man doesn't remember anything, and she's been gone for a year! Plus, doesn't everyone have a thousand questions from Ellen?? what was everyone doing in this episode, standing in a holding pattern?
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ok I can understand Baltar wanting the guns but why would Adama arm these nitwits. Maybe if they were on another ship but is Galactica that lawless that Adama can't control food distribution on his own ship?
Can anything good come of handing Baltar guns? -
Cavil sent Ellen to muck up Cylon/human relations. In addition to agitating the other Four to leave, she may have had a hand in aborting Caprica's baby as well...no Cylon reproduction means a return to Resurrection hubs (Cavil's preference).
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But glancing at the headlines, I see that, once again, I'm in the minority. And I'm so very tired of being in the minority. In all things, not just this TV show.
The previous episodes pissed me off over the politics. Adama was in the wrong over the mutiny but that's now over and done with. On the human level, this was a very moving episode. The only stupid thing this time was Adama giving Baltar those weapons. But I guess I'm getting use to the stupid shit on this show.
It helps that Roslin (who I love as an actress and hate as a character) was in the background. That fact that Ellen, was back to her usual cunty self certainly made matters more interesting to me. It was also good to see in head six finally back, even if the explanation of her absence was needlessly wasted in some POS deleted scene. But I liked the ep for some reason and didn't end up angry at the writers for a change. And all of this, despite the fact that I'm in a pissy mood today. Maybe I just have the right amount of booze in me and I shouldn't be wasting it on this fucking talkback. -
Tory's gotta die. For killing Callie, for betraying the fleet, and just for being fucking annoying. Please let Chief airlock her pathetic ass.
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I've never been disappointed with a Jane Espenson-written anything before, but this really had some problems. It was as if she didn't get a chance to read or see the previous episode. Or maybe it was Kate Vernon's fault not finding a balance between the St. Ellen of last episode and the conniving bitch from before. But this Ellen seemed absolutely nothing like we saw in the last episode. She suddenly becomes, in Tigh's words, 'petty and vile' - exactly the things she accuses Cavill of. I also don't see why Galen decided to leave given what he's doing with Galactica at the moment. I also didn't get the timeline of Caprica getting attacked in 'Dogville' - I thought that by showing her with the Doc in the next scene they were telling us that it was not Caprica in the previous scene, but apparently it was. Why was she walking around through Dogville? And why exactly did the baby die, was it some after shock of the fight? Did Ellen do something? I really thought she was going to kill the baby after the scene in Tigh's quarters, realizing that Saul might leave with her if the baby was gone. But I guess I was wrong about that. And what's the point of the baby if you're just going to kill it? Was it just to fuck with Tigh's head? I really hope the final four episodes make things more consistent.
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... 180 degree shift in character for the Chief was pretty glaring. Ellen, I can understand: she's viciously in love with Tigh, and very jealous. Jealousy screws with seeing the bigger picture pretty much. Baltar irritated me this episode. Caprica's baby dying right on schedule irritated me more than Baltar. Tory needs to suck on some vacuum. Wonderful, touching scene with Adama, and Tigh at the end. Is it just me or does Adama seem like he doesn't have a clue what's going on anymore? Poor fellow. Anyway, I, ignoramus, give Jane Espenson a grade of FAIL for this episode.
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. . . to a really small, petty and vindictive one with a stack of emotionally frakked up people who pretty much just set out to save their own asses more than save the human-oid race. That's what it comes down to. And, JE aside, this is still RDM's ship to run aground.
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with all the xray radiation.
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... that black gunk Caprica was eating that killed baby. Or maybe the baby was exposed to too much Hulu. After this episode, and to a lesser extent the last one, I'm starting to believe that my brain will turn to mush.
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It's about reconciling you're going to have to accept another into the fold, that the old definitions don't stand anymore. The cylon baby had to die because the only future these people have is together, reconciled. I do feel the final five story has sort of put too much of a drag on that notion as they are something else entirely.
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I see.
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unless every week has pseudo militaristic action scenes. why do you watch this show? there's videogames who offer that thrill every minute. BSG is trying for something else, and occassionally slow burns into something intense.
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Too many videogame mentalities here.
This was a nice slow character episode after 3 weeks of massive revaluations, deaths, and huge arcs.
I liked the unlikely love story between Tigh and Caprica 6. I liked seeing that Ellen is still a screw up, and at the end when we see the Cylon's putting pictures of their dead up on the walls of Galactica I was deeply moved. That's good writing, that's profound.
Maybe when most of you get a little bit older and had life kick the shit out of you a little more, you will appreciate the quite character moments in good writing just a little bit better. -
the 'big bunch' are in the minority. I, for one, found the Chief's abrupt vote to leave the fleet flies in the face of his acceptance of who he is, which was painstakingly written over many episodes. His vote to leave seemed merely a tool by the writer to up the tension a bit. I just get the impression of poor writing, or, at worst, a disregard for what previous writers have constructed.
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... (whatever that means), I'm sure, have views that are just as valid as everybody else's. No need to put anyone down. 8-)
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...is linked to the experiments that Cylon Simon did with her way back when she was captured on Caprica.New theory born, and it doesn't need love to survive.
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Feb 21, 2009 1:49:35 AM CST
How does not liking this ep make you shallow and ignorant?
by fedrich519
No, I don't need video game action. No, I don't need dumbed down tv that is spoon fed to me. I am a rational, intelligent tv viewer that loves deep, rich story lines. I like smart writing that makes you think about the episode for days. This is why I feel that BSG is one of the, if not the best show on television today. But I'm sorry, this episode had real problems and was not very good. And not liking it doesn't automatically make me shallow and ignorant. It doesn't mean that I am incapable of appreciating smart, edgy, original material. It just had problems that I can't get past. The flow and momentum built up thus far was just totally derailed. What happened to the Ellen of last week? The one that was calm and in control? The one that was wise and mature? The 2,000 year old Cylon vanished and was replaced by the Ellen with false memories implanted by Cavil. She goes from chastising Cavil to acting just like him from one episode to the next? What the fuck? And I agree with another poster on Caprica going for a stroll in Dogville.....huh? Why? She's hooked up with the XO, what could she possibly need down in the ghetto? It did seem like in the next scene she was with Doc Coddle all happy like nothing had happened. It did seem like another model and not Caprica. Adama giving Baltar guns?! Where is that going and do we even want to go there? The closing credits started to roll and I said out loud "That's it?!" We're too close to the end for a filler episode. This was almost as bad as an episode about Jack's tattoos. What a waste.
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...that complain that the baby died "right on schedule" or that Cavil sent Ellen there to fuck with the baby:Cavil doesn't know about Caprica 6s baby, as evidenced by Ellen's "if Simon knew" threat.And the reason the baby died was because it DIDN'T HAVE LOVE. That's what the Cylons always said they needed to have children. But as soon as Tigh started fucking Ellen, the baby got worse. When 6 realized thanks to Ellen that her and her baby weren't first, she lost it.
Seriously, if this show is too complicated for you, stick with Stargate or Dr. Who. -
...and starts kidnapping Hera because she misses her dead baby and all the opera house dreams start coming true in the final episode, this won't seem like filler, and the episode won't seem stupid.Your comment still will though.
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I thought Season 1 was some of the best if not the best television ever made.
I now find it completely unwatchable. Quite possibly the worst episode yet. (IMO - which I know is worth nothing to anyone else). -
What does any of that have to do with her random and unnecessary visit to Dogville? Or Ellen doing a complete 180 from one episode to the next?
And my comment was stupid? What is that? What did I do to warrant such a random insult just for sharing my opinion? Are you a 12 year old? Grow up. -
And this episode proved it. I've always felt her writing has been the least talented out of the staff (did anyone watch the Gaeta minisodes? Yikes), and I'm puzzled at why AICN and Moore get all gooey for Espensen. The only episode she wrote that I enjoy is "The Passage" and even that episode is just okay, IMO. She wrote "Escape Velocity' "The Hub" and the Gaetasodes. And she wrote Baltar's hammy "we are all perfect" speech. And Tyrol's completely confusing "I quit" confrontation with Adama. And the flashforward/dream sequences where Roslin and Elosha watch Roslin die. Eww. Now we get this one, where in the space of a single episode Ellen went from enlightened, and level-headed in the face of death to crazy raving irrational vindicative bitch. C'mon. This episode had all the mood swings of a pregnant manic-depressive meth addict. Someone should be keeping better tabs on consistency.
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Let's see. First off, the only 8 who had her brains scrambled to be a sleeper agent (presumably against her will). Which gets her arrested and then shot dead.
Then when back with her own people, she exercises her presumed democratic right to vote the way she wanted - and she's the only 8 to not turn on the other Cylons and gun them down when a vote doesn't go the loser's way. Ie every other 2,6 and 8 were actually guilty of treason by definition.
So trying Boomer for treason - makes perfect sense to me (*rolls eyes*). -
"Ellen went from enlightened, and level-headed in the face of death to crazy raving irrational vindicative bitch."
Of course... have you ever known ANY WOMAN to be any different if she finds a younger prettier woman has taken her man?
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There were a couple of good moments here, but overall it felt like nothing happened. Yes the Cylon baby died (which I suppose was supposed to be The Big Thing)...but I kind of felt nothing. Sorry, just wasn't invested (do we blame Jane for that?).
Anyway, it's obvious the writers are about "written out" with this series. Time to put this to rest and not let it drag out. -
Ellen had it right... sigh.
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The supposed threat has been missing in action for far too long. It didn't help that of the 3 remaining Cylons who count as the bad guys, 2 of them have had one line each this season (Simon: "We think it's for the best" and Doral: "Oh no!").
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Who acts like that? No, thankfully I haven't. I'd expect Ellen or anyone to act different after discovering what happened to her love. What I have a problem with is Ellen's way-over-the-top reaction given her demeanor from the previous episode. She almost had her head split open and poked around with without batting an eye and only showing concern for the guy who was ordering her autopsy. Next time we see this enlightened soul, she's acting like a total psycho bitch. There's no consistency there. She went from Loving, enlightened, and reasonable to immature, petty, irrational, and vindictive. Of course, that's before her mood shifts violently yet again and for some reason pushes Tigh into telling Caprica Six he loves her. WTF, man? That's way too bizarre. This episode was PMSing bigtime. Maybe if it was written by Alicia Silverstone's character in "The Crush" I could understand where the author was coming from. Instead I'm just left scratching my head as to why Tigh, Six, and Ellen are acting so ridiculous in this episode. And one last thing... what was all that crap about Tigh *talking* Six/Liam out of a miscarriage.... say whaaaaaa? This episode feels like it came out of the first half of season 4 (which sucked).
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I know it seems rather far-fetched, but Caprica lost the baby because Tigh couldn't say the words. This shit has been known to happen from time to time. Folks die in these situations because the person who matters most to them... does not say what needed to be said. Tigh had a moment, he blew it, and it broke his preggers woman's heart. You know what happens when you do that to a preggers woman? Bad shit. Get a bit more in touch with the weirdness of the human brain people.
That aside; Baltar finally has decided to fight, but the WAR IS OVER. This is why I love this show more than ever: it's showing what it's like to have to LIVE with your former ENEMIES.
This has happened time and time in history, and it serves us well to see a TV show play it out so deftly. Really; the humans and cylons need to get it in their heads that they are in this together.
They maybe would have gotten this clue. If Roslin and Adama spoke instead of slowly rotting away like the ship. Someone has to step up, bring everyone together, and take them to the promiseland. I am going with Kara on this one. That's how she rolls.
Nevertheless; it was a great episode, and it's only filler. If you miss the incredible important moments that smash your opinions that it was filler. -
I know maybe a tiny bit more about women than your average guy. 16 years of marriage, plus all my clients for the past 10 years have been almost exclusively women. And because of what I do I hear a little bit more, and see a little bit more than is usual - and to me, that is exactly what I would expect any woman in Ellen's situation to act like.
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How did Boomer and Ellen find the fleet?
And if it was that easy for them, wouldn't John be right behind them? Did he let them go, hoping they would lead him to the fleet?
But still, how did Boomer know? -
I don't expect an average woman's reaction. Ellen isn't your average woman. In the last episode, a character tolf her that she was going to be dissected alive, and her reaction was "oh Cavil, you could be a better person than that!" It's inconsistent, IMO.
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If Boomer could find the fleet that easily, so could the remaining Base Stars with their superior jump technology, weapons, numbers ... Well you'd think so anyway.
What they are doing now is actually a good question, is there somewhere else they have to be instead of trying to blow up the fleet? -
doesnt compare to 'earshot'.
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I never said "average woman" I said "any woman in Ellen's situation"
Show me a woman who wouldn't be jealous and petty towards a beauty 20 years younger who has just snared away her guy... having seen that happen first hand a few times I can say with absolute certainty that Ellen was far more benevolent in that situation than anyone could expect. After all - wouldn't you take it hard if your spouse left you for someone else after several thousand years of marriage? !!! -
Will that have any kind of consequences before the final episode? Will there be an Intervention crossover epi? Are there NA/AA meetings somewhere in the Fleet? Or will he just croak?
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There are people who are poison to other people. Ellen and Tigh are like that.
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when he was a BLACK GUY and one of Adama's closest confidants...
I hope next week they give boomer of of those Zebra From Madagascar2 scenes!
someone (Baltar?) reassures her - those other 8's are all white zebras with black stripes, but YOU! YOU are a black zebra with white stripes!
and then looks for the bite marks on her butt -
I had the same question last week when they showed Ellen in the previews, how does Boomer find the fleet? I was hoping Deanna would be with them and we'd find out Boomer's been following them for a while. It seemed like she jumped from the Basestar straight to Galactica, and since Raptor's are only built for short hops...nope.
Also, would it kill them to give us a little update on the fate of the ship? Seeing multiple shots of Bill walking around watching goop getting painted on beams became tiresome fast. Give us a fucking update Chief!
All in all I was pretty unsatisfied with this episode, nothing that happened made sense to me at the point we're at with the story and the characters.
Also, fuck that "the baby died without love" bullshit. That was just as eye-rolling now as it was when Athena first said it way back when. -
I'll happily take the "simple" season 1 over this silly pile of nonsense.
Season 1- some of the best sci fi television ever
Season 4- see the above talkback- retcon confusion/ plot holes you can drive a truck through/ explanations more confusing than the questions -
I think the Boomer trial is just a background story. The real deal is with Starbuck finding out what she is.
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Or is it that he hasn't wanted to without resurrection technology? I don't think he's happy about his newfound mortality and would guess neither are the others. At least not enough to risk their lives in a fire fight. Now he has to find the fleet, because he needs Ellen and possibly the rest of the five to get resurrection technology back.
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I think Tai Pan is right. What Ellen did was completely inconsistent with the previous episode. Yes, Ellen was angry and hurt. Her reaction was not in line with the standards set last week. It didn't work for me either. I thought Ellen was above it.
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What with the repeated filler shots of Adama looking worried at the cracks in the ship and the ad breaks, I reckon there was about 20 minutes of written material there. And only about 5 minutes of that pushed the plot along. Can I get my money back?
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and is waiting for Baltar (his agent) to start a war, then he'll nip in and take the final 5 in the confusion. In-head 6 is his messenger and Baltar is leaping from life to life, putting things right that once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home
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Recall that they found Earth. Only Ellen would know its location.
All in all, I felt like probably an additional 15-20 minutes was cut out of this ep that would have made it stand up better. Guess I'll hope for an expanded edition on DVD. -
So the baby got ill because daddy started banging his old girfriend? IF you are honestly suggesting that is what Espenson had in mind then this shit truly did just turn into an episode from a daytime soap.I have much LOWER expectations for "The Plan" and "Caprica"
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They really need to tie up that arc soon.
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but I am assuming it's one of those episodes that becomes important later on. I have no problem with Ellen being Ellen, because if you saw her in Seasons 1 & 2, this episode was pretty consistent with her character. I don't have a problem with any of the elements in the show, I just found the episode itself, lacking something. I can't even say what it was that I didn't like. I just didn't like it. Still, I am sure it'll end up factoring in the final four.
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The Ellen from past seasons was re-programmed by Cavil to be a drunken floozy THE Ellen from last week is her true self.So with Espenson saying Ellen was just returning to whats familiar by being a bitch in this episode makes NO sense at all. Its like she NEVER saw last weeks epsiode before she wrote this turd.Lastly I agree with you it did lack something, mainly good writing is what I found....how abouts you?
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Remember when Boomer Shot Adama?
Ah the good old days
Now we get Ellen as the head of the Cylons throwing a tantrum... -
Did anyone catch the throwaway line from Starbuck comparing Saul and Ellen kissing to watching grandparents kissing?She's sooo a half cylon. perhaps number 7 is her father after all.
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...was one MORE random shot of Adama looking up at the structure of the ship with a skeptical look on his face. We didn't get enough of those.
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*How bad was it?* you ask
This is so bad and out of character that it must have been written by the writers of Heroes -
The many people who didn't like this embarrassing episode are [a] children who don't understand life or [b] men who don't understand women. Hrm...I think I'll go with [c]: This episode was terribad. Plot holes you could fly a cruiser through, characters (Chief, Ellen) switching their allegiances on a dime, a B-plot (prophet Baltar and his sex-cult) everyone stopped caring about some time ago, Adama getting *even* hammier in his drunkenness, and of course, all the As the World Turns shenanigans involving the women of Tigh. (The Fifth Element is Love? Give me an effing break.)
There's no special understanding that hard-won experience or women's intuition or whatever is going to give you to decode this hamhanded pile of malarkey. The emperor has no clothes. Sadly, BSG is flopping around on the deck like a fish that needs to be put out of its misery.
And what do we have next week? Sounds like another BSG involuntary reflex (not unlike torture or throwing somebody in the brig) -- the trial. Hey, maybe we'll get Romo Lampkin out to do more Boba Fett-style fan service. Oh joy. -
I don't understand the love some folks profess for Espenson. Her contributions to BSG have been piss poor IMO. This last episode was turdtastic.
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It may have irrevocably fucked up the entire series. WTF. Doesn't Ron Moore have any quality control? How was this episode allowed to air with so many blatant inconsistencies and careless contradictions?
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Seriously- go watch "33", "Kobol's Last Gleaming", "Hand of God" from Season One. And those episodes still kick your ass- sci fi, action mystery, FUN fan debate etc.
And hey- the CYLONS ARE VILLAINS INTENT ON WIPING OUT THE LAST REMNANTS OF HUMANITY SO THEY DONT COME BACK AND TAKE REVENGE ON THE CYLONS!!! Imagine that... a dramatic story arc that makes sense.
Now you have Ellen the Cylon fighting with Six the Cylon about Tigh the Cylon. Wow, how invested can the audience get in that?
ALmost as much as when Cylon raiders nuked all the non FTL ships in the Mini series and Adama had to face the choice of abandoning all of the people left on baord- highlighted by a child holding a stuffed animals while the other captains called him a murderer.
It's truly amazing to see how far this has gone down the drain- really is.
Im excited to see how hard the finale tanks at this point- hello Matrix 3. -
...last night's episode would be the "Linda Paloma" track.
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But Ellen is not out of character. The Chief might have been. It was a good solid episode that sets the dramatic tension in the central characters for the final episode. And firmly places baby Hera in the centre of the story again.
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I love your name.
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I'm waiting for a "V" style ending with the Star Child, I mean Hera at this point- nothing shall be off the table!
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Even some of the apologists can't apologise for this one.
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I miss the Baltar and Head Six from Seasons 1 and 2 THEY were the reason I stuck with the show. I was seriously expecting all the bullshit Head Six has put Baltar through to be building to some massive arc but they have been relegated to token characters who really deserve fucking better. I fully expected them to have a an active role these last several episodes instead we might just get some token scene explainaing things away in the last episode. I know a while back some writers said not to expect anything amazing and they didnt want TPM type of frenzy over these last episodes but seriously this last episode was just a fucking INSULT of the highest order. They could have gone all out and made these final 10 episodes stand out but no we have to limp here and there because the cash cow that is BSG will be milked for all its worth So YES more shitty filler daytime soap episodes so then we can just explain what really should have been shown "The Plan" (Ellen giving Galactica some asnwers)as a seperate movie.Expecting some conclusion over the dates and how it all adds up>.... well DONT that wont be explained until the comic series Espenson mentioned in Mo's blog last week. Do not believe these fuckers now when they say that they will not leave things in the air so they can link them to the "Caprica Spinoff" as they will. Clearly they could be giving us episodes that deal with all this but no we have to have Caprica Six and her Baby Daddy getting into it with a Menopausal Ellen JESUS all that was left was for Dr Phil to come strolling out.Espenson is just bringing the show down to the sort of level she will have Caprica at....thats all.
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I sort of enjoyed the episode, but at the same time, it really didn't seem to have enough meat to warrant being one of the final five episodes.
I'm disappointed in the back pedalling they've taken to ensure Hera remains the undisputed messiah, i.e. rewriting the paternity of Callie & Chief's sprog and aborting Tigh and Caprica's (unless there's more to come on this). I'm also a little bored by what's happened with Baltar and his god-awful pseudo-cult; the only saving grace is that Head-Six was back.
Strong scene at the close with Adama and Tigh though. -
I don't get what people see in it
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Hey when I ripped last week's episode, I was a cranky Troll.
medicinaluser, thanks for the comments.
Again, I am just truly amazed that something as kick ass cool as this show has ended up in the end like this. And medicinaluser, you are right, the whole Baltar 6 thing was so a great creepy dynamic that you thought would somehow reward you for watching,
Amazing indeed -
The cylon living goop in the ship will make it possible for the good Admiral or maybe Roslyn to become a hybrid of Galactica.
And why has no one mentioned living on Cobol? Sees like a nice place.
And can someone explain how long the 5 were on Caprica? Was Tigh actually on Caprica over 30 years or has Admam's memory been altered as well? Anders had to have been a Pyramid star because everyone remembers him as such? Right? -
Heck at this point- just make them both Cylons and bring them back. I'm sure there is an explanation that makes sense... Zarek was placed by Ellen on Kobol 1000 years ago, but was killed by old Cylons, and now was resurrected to...
you get the point, it would go well with Adama as a Hybrid at this point. Excellent idea! -
I understand the overall point of the episode. "Blending" whether it is ship, or with species was something that was having a strong impact on everyone. Look at all their reactions. All of them were different and interesting. It doesn't however explain Ellen's inconsistency. That was a writing flaw.
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lol ;)
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Feb 21, 2009 11:18:14 AM CST
They've had a perfectly good explanation for everything since th
by premiere warlord bush
The Cylons were created by man. They evolved. They Rebelled. That's fucking it.
This Final Five bullshit is boring, convoluted, meaningless and makes for episodes where we get to watch endless, poorly written exposition instead of Adama kicking ass or Baltar ruining everyone's day, or Roslin's political shenanigans. -
Can I join your gang?
Oh, sorry I actually liked that episode. It's still better than Lost. -
My wife and are huge fans (she is a bit more than me because I like it but don't think it is as good as it could be) but we were both floored by how bad last night's episode was.
Ellen was always our least favorite character but when she came back last week and showed wisdom and depth, we thought, ok there is more to her but this week we are forced to suffer through these childish exchanges and high school love triangles. Also, how many times do we need to see Adama drinking and then inspecting the work being done on the ship??? We get it, he is unsettled, but c`mon. With only a few episodes left, every episode should be an epic step towards the finale not all of this petty stuff and focus on lesser characters. It is hard to say who is to blame for this management of this show but it is an argument for ending a show before it goes off the tracks and knowing where your story is going before you start to tell it. I am so sad to see this show end because there is so much in it, and so many actors I will miss, but I am much sadder to see it flop around like a dead fish. It is indeed time to kill it, and say goodbye. -
Yeah, that makes perfect BSG. Lets just have Space Battles in every episode and then have Baltar sneak around with head 6 conspiring against Roslin and finish with them all having a threesome in the finale.
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I kind if thought they were setting up Anders to be wired into Galactica [as a hybrid/navigator). It was like as the ship becomes more Cylon, his vitals are also increasing (like he's "dialing" into it?)
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People don't hate BSG and that is why they are so irritated with being thrown this kind of poorly conceived drivel in the last stages of the show. We love BSG and it hurts to see it go out with such a whimper. And for the record, Lost's weakest moments are better than BSG's best! If you have watched every episode, appreciate character development, and a good story, objectively speaking (as I like both shows) Lost is a much better crafted show and better written. At the end of the day, it is like saying you like pizza better than sex... why choose when you can have both...
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So how is it going out with a whimper?
Have you seen them? Has anyone here?
No.
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Anyone else remember when this show used to be about crazy badass robots fighting humans?
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Better than last weeks. I find the eps focused on the cylons are the worst. I just can't get invested in these people anymore, in less they're human. I miss the feeling of comadery when they were all in it together.
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The awesome two-part mutiny arc we got to enjoy before being subjected to this final-five drivel.
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Yea. She lost the child because Saul broke her heart. Damn.
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The whole wise Ellen recessing into petty Ellen really bothered me as well.
Also, are you the lead singer of the Pixies? -
BSG is about character interaction and character development. It's not really about big explosions and action sets. From reading the comments on this TB - it seems most expect the later rather than the former. The only thing I don't like about this episode is the narrative purpose to eliminate Saul and 6's baby is a bit transparent. It is certainly emotionally gripping...at least for me - it is just a bit transparent - which takes you out of the story a tad.
The biggest problem here is the two show mutiny arc was so incredibly gripping - that anything before and after is a bit of a letdown. They probably should've pushed the mutiny to the last 3 or 4 episodes, but I think in the grand scheme of things - when we all look back on this series - the episodic placement of the mutiny story line and its effect on the narrative tension of the last 10 episodes will be an afterthought.
I would beg all of you to tone your expectations down. No show can live up to the hype we are heaping on these last 10 episodes. Series endings tend to be a letdown – calm down and just enjoy the ride. You’ve been warned.
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Not enjoying what BSG has become has little-to-nothing to do with wanting "big explosions and action sets." (I thought the 2-part mutiny was gimmicky as all hell, what with every reversal involving overpowering 2 crappy guards.)
I want a show that doesn't hit the reset button on its characters every few episodes, or, at the very least, attempts some modicum of narrative coherence. At the moment, BSG does neither. What plot it does have of late is mainly driven by folding up loose ends they never should have introduced in the first place. (See also: Hotdog's new baby, Caprica 6's Padme-style miscarriage.) -
As for Boomer being tried for treason, the cylons don't want to try her for shooting Adama. They want to try her for siding with Cavil and trying to kill them all.
Anyone else think that Six's baby died because Ellen poisoned her? I think that was the purpose of Ellen going to visit her.
I agree with the theory that Six will now try and take Hera and run off with Gaius. -
Does anyone think that the miscarriage was caused by a scrap earlier on?
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I agree that the constant drinking is sad. Gaeta was right: Adama is just a sad old man. I love this show so much, but with Adama perennially wallowing in the bottle I don't think it would matter to me if he got popped off at this point. I hope there is a redemption for him at the end.
Also, about love and a baby. Didn't the first season make it clear that conception was impossible between cylons (and human and cylon) without love? So now (in season 4) conception is possible but 2nd trimester demise is the result of no love? Maybe it was half-love, as Tigh fantasized that Caprica was Ellen. But then why couldn't Ellen concieve? Should Adama attempt to conceive with Tigh? Tigh loves Adama, no? Sigh. -
I'm glad I'm not alone in this. No, the Frank Black name was actually a tribute to Millennium, my favorite show when I signed up at AICN all those years ago...
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The episode had some weak moments. The writing and direction were not as consistent as in the past, but the themes were fluid.
Adama is dying. That's my theory. He's taking more pills and drinking more (trying to hide the pain?). He knows he is dying, has given up all hope and has nothing left to hold on to, except for his relationship with Roslin. Hell, even his ship, Galactica, is dying.
We didn’t really need the scene with Caprica Six being attacked. We know that most of the humans are still not accepting of the Cylons (and, obviously, the Cylons feel the same about the humans). And why would they be? That is Adama and Roslin’s failure – they both shutdown after finding the destroyed “Earth”. There is no trust – and there’s been nothing so far that either side has been confronted with to earn that trust. That will change whenever Cavil arrives. Once human and Cylon are fighting side-by-side, then we’ll see if trust forms (this may be the last episode, but hey).
I can justify Ellen's character about face. When Ellen was reborn on the baseship, she had all the memories of the Ellen that died, but her human program/personality did not turn on until she arrived on Galactica (I think that is why the episode made a point of Tyrol identifying the 8-model as Boomer - the one that was programmed to sabotage the ship and kill Adama (S1)).
Maybe Anders will wake up, but my bet is he becomes Galactica's hybrid. As the Cylon-goo integrates with the ship it will reactivate him. Which means he will be connected to the ship... and able to jump the ship?
Not sure the point of Baltar and his religious cult. If there was more time, I could see an arc, but I'm afraid this story is going to be rushed. But, this does need to be typed out in full: Baltar's Armed Religious Cult. They believe something different than most (one god, salvation within). Will they terrorize the lower decks, or introduce the rule of law? Paula, obviously, is going to be an obstacle for Baltar. She wants power, maybe more. Liked Head-Six’s return.
Didn’t like the absence of Helio and Athena (again). Is Helio even alive after the headshot he took in the mutiny? Tyrol’s vote to leave seemed out of character, since I think he loves Galactica almost as much as Adama. -
The problem with last night's episode had nothing to do with how simple or complex it was. It had everything to do with shitty writing. Somebody said it best earlier, I can't believe that we get this episode so soon after the excellent mutiny episodes.
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Feb 21, 2009 12:23:08 PM CST
"We didn’t really need the scene with Caprica Six being attacked
by mattmanreturns
Goddamn, I've heard some pointless complaints, but this one takes the cake. Talk about nitpicking.
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It looks like there will be at least one explosion. So that keeps the videogame players happy ;)
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"After all - wouldn't you take it hard if your spouse left you for someone else after several thousand years of marriage? !!!" That didn't happen. Ellen shows up, asks who TIgh has been screwing, and seems relatively cool with it until she learns there is a baby. She didn't ask what Tigh's intentions were, the bitch just goes nuts and for whatever reason (writer's block, I'd imagine) decides to take her insecurities out on Tigh by... voting that the Cylons need to leave the fleet?? Huh? And apparently your baby will miscarry unless your ex-wife forces you to tell your girlfriend you love her...
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I know their setting things up for the finale but that was too much of baltar and his concubines
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Ellen forgot to confront Tigh about, you know, killing her. That's why I was surprised they had sex.
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Ok, at this point, there's NOTHING the writers could pull out of their ass for the last 4 episodes to redeem how absolutley fucking terrible the show has gotten as of late. I thought the first half of season 4 was boring and tedious, but this is just to the point of being unwatchable. Seriously, we have 5 episodes left, and the writers waste a whole episode on damn near NOTHING happening. This is when important plot threads should be set up, when the final threat/confrontation should be starting to be set up. And let me tell you, if more bitching among the final five is what's being set up, then this is going to be one boring as hell conclusion to the show. Even next week's episode doesn't look interesting at all. Again with Boomer? Really?
And all you fucking apologists who keep saying "its not about the space battles!"? Bullshit, go back to the best episodes of seasons 1-3, they were all action heavy episodes. Remember when we used to have GROUND battles against the Cyclons? Ya, it was that long ago. Jesus what the fuck happened? -
Looking over the episodes she's written, its apparent she's essentially the most to blame for ruining this show, having written most of the worst episodes of the show, and none of the good one. She's responsible for turning the military show BSG into a fucking soap opera.
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Is as subtle and clear as the actual writing on the show. Don't reveal these earth-shattering ideas through elemental dramatic development and storytelling. Instead have Basil Exposition pop out of a coma to reveal backstory that you failed to elucidate over 4 freakin years. It's like cramming all the answers into the last ep of X-files "The boy is responsible for all of it."
Yes, I'm still crabbing about last week. Unsure if I want to bother with last night's. I'm sure I will, but I likely won't enjoy it. -
TP- I agree with you, I think the writing took a huge nose dive after the mid point of season3. To the point that you can look at the show and watch it up to that point, and then it gets BAD. From Minor writing miscues to large overall arc decisions the strategy and tactics of the writing has gone way off base. I say complicated is bad in this case because the trap the writers seem to be in is making things "more complicated" to write themselves out of the corner they have put themselves into.
It's just really bad, and Im still pissed off about the whole second half of S3.
I just cant believe it's the same show that was "must watch" viewing and dazzled people that hated sci fi and fans alike. -
and I'd not enjoyed the show for a while? That ep with Racetrack doing the stims and getting the radiation poisoning. That was when I realized it was leaving a bad taste in my mouth, that just hasn't gotten better.
Maybe I'll just go back and watch a couple season 1 eps on Hulu and forget about it. -
or better yet try self strangulation while masturbating while watching blackhawk down. Espenson's episode where Tigh and Six sought solace in each other was one of the most emotionally brutal things I've ever seen on tv and i mean that at praise.
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All we needed was some domestic abuse in the story and it would have been a textbook Lifetime TV movie. What possessed BSG's staff to turn one of the final episodes into a soap opera?
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the episode where Lee goes trolling through the black market. but at least it wasn't as bad as Jack's tatoos, which is when i stopped watching lost
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Bullet3
You have violated the rule not to criticize the sacred golden cow of Season 4 of Battle star galactica.
please report to re-education immediately. -
that is connected to Anders is very cool.
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I really, really, want it to end on a good note, but I really don't see it happening.
And everyone who thinks I'm crazy, here's a suggestion.
Last week, I wanted to make sure I wasn't losing my mind on this issue, so I popped in the battlestar galactica miniseries pilot. Let me tell you, it was a revelation. I absolutley forgot how much I used to love this show, and how really fricking good it was compared to what we have now.
I advise people in doubt to try watching one of the older episodes and I think you'll see where I'm coming from. -
Adama allows a heavily armed militia to run around on the Galactica? A heavily armed militia which just happens to be made up of religious extremists? He did remember the mutiny, right?
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I agree with you Espenson has fucking ruined this show for whatever reason she has got on the good side of Moore and Scifi and managed to bring her Tween bullshit from Buffy over to BSG.I personally feel this is the WORST episode ever, yes I know some of you are screaming what about "Black Market" BUT that wasnt an episode shown with only 4 left before the show ends for good. How she had the utter cheek to write this pap and have noone tell her it was utter shite is beyond me folks. I would dearly love for her to explain herself but she ALWAYS comes across as some retarded aspergers sufferer and everything is just amazing wicked great thankyou......just saying is all that Moore held his hands up to where the Black Market episode went wrong so it would be great to have someone come along and say look sorry it was crap no excuses.At the moment this just feels like a big fuck you to the fans,they would be happy to put this out with so few left.IMDB says that Espenson and Espenson ALONE wrote "The Plan" for the love of Gods someone tell me thats wrong and at least Moore gave enough of a shit to have some input....speaking of which has that fucker just given up?
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I am not a hater of BSG. I believe it is vastly superior to anything that Lost has done. This is last episode was not its best. It was not the worst either.
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BSG is superior to Lost ... out-takes. Though, not tonight. Lost out-takes were better than this crap.
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It is obvious that most of the haters on here are trolls from the British Isles and not fans of the show.
They get character names wrong, they use pussy Britishism like "cheek" and "Shite". They can't spell Color without a U.
English is our language now, after we saved your asses from the krauts TWICE in the first half of the twentieth century and kept the Ruskies from rolling over your asses for the better part of fifty years. You no longer have the rights to the language.
Britain is a forth rate country.
USA USA USA -
I don't think BSG needs shooting and guns and space battles and mutinies to be kickass. This episode, while slower than most, was more character centric, and I could appreciate it for what it was. Ellen, it turns out, is still a manipulative spiteful bitch (yay! I wasn't buying the benevolent queen bee routine)... and when Tigh gave his speech about how love is a feeling, one that words just can't ever really express, as a man, I wanted to stand up and cheer and say "Got-Damned Right, Sol! Preach it!" And as a father, I have to admit that Saul's moment at the end with Bill Adama kicked me right in the nuts. Yeah, it's a science fiction story, but I couldn't help but feel an almost unbearable amount of pity for what is ultimately a fictional character. And I think that's says a lot about Paul Hogan as an actor. Saul is turning out to be my favorite of the series.
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Without SkyOne (British satellite channel) BSG would NEVER have been made in the first place. Seriously though I get the chap from further above was saying ..being called a Troll for not liking the show is just fucking petty tell us why you think otherwise or STFUOh yeh and hows living in your near bankrupt country going?
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MonkeyLord, it's Michael Hogan, not Paul Hogan. Paul Hogan is an aussie with a knife.
And, like I said before, hating this episode (and much of the direction BSG has taken in the past season) doesn't have to have anything to do with wanting "shooting and guns and space battles." It has to do with wanting coherent characters who act within their own continuity from week to week. BSG has always press the reset button too much. Now, they do it constantly. -
you say that the chief is acting "out of continuity". He says he wants to go to the basestar. I'm like, fuck, Chief? WTF? You just became the chief again. But when it comes to Anders vote, he sticks up for his vote of staying with the fleet. And then I was like, right, that is the Chief.
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I'm all for slow deep character stuff, but the mythology has gotten so ridiculous now, that we don't even know who any of these people are anymore. Like, seriously, Tyrol and Tory are like blank slates with no motivation at this point (Why,exactly does tyrol want to abandon the fleet?), Ellen seems noble and knowing and then suddenly shifts to being bratty and vengeful, Tigh doesn't seem to have much of a personality anymore either, and all Adama does anymore is drink and look hurt. Same thing goes for Starbuck, her personality shifts and motivations this season have been completley random. They've even managed to make Balter way less interesting than he used to be by essentially forgetting his guilt over killing humanity (although I'll admit he's probably the only enjoyable thing still around in the show).
Really, Adama and Roslin's relationship is the only real "character" stuff left in this show. By doing all these twists and redefining everyone's identities, they've made a show full of empty people who simply act because that's what the plot requires.
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Why does Baltar keep seeing the Six in his head? And why doesn't he go and talk to any of the, apparently, dozens of other Sixes running around about this, maybe ask them what the hell is going on, that he's been seeing and talking to a Six for several years now in his head?
Oh, and I agree with the majority of the posters here: last night's episode was piss poor. I don't buy for a moment The Chief would vote to flee the fleet. That just doesn't wash, especially after Adama basically embraced him and gave him his old position back last week.
And the endless scenes of Adama walking around looking at girders was beyond overkill. It started to verge on parody, something this show has always deftly avoided.
Worst episode I've seen in some time. -
How did Boomer know exactly where to find the fleet? What's to stop Cavil from doing the same? And why hasn't he simply attacked and crushed them yet? And why on earth would the 6s and 8s, of all the Cylons, insist on majority rule? Last time I checked, they have a slight credibility gap on that count. And the idea that Adama would allow Baltar and his religious nuts run around the ship armed to the teeth is beyond comprehension. Especially immediately after the conclusion of a mutiny. We'd better get a damned good explanation next episode for that little bit of insanity. BUT: All that said, I still think this was a reasonable good episode... But that's probably due to Paul Hogan carrying the whole show on his shoulders.
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Fair criticisms, and I agree to a point. I suppose I just haven't let some of those things bug me as much as I could have. In the end, even a "bad" episode of BSG beats the crap out of 99% of everything else on the airwaves.
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Even notwithstanding the whole "should we stay or should we go" switcheroo with Tyrol, and Ellen pulling a temperamental 180 last night, there's the larger continuity problem of the Final Four literally pestering Anders within an inch of his life for answers one week, to all of them suddenly not seeming to care very that much about that stuff the week after, when somebody shows up who actually knows everything and isn't dying from a convenient bullet to the brain.
Speaking of Anders, I suspect he'll either be the Galactica hybrid or the Caprica baby downloaded into his head, just so he's out of the picture, a la Dee, and that way the writers can have their little Apollo and Starbuck closure. (Same reason they've been killing and re-parenting all the babies on the show to make Hera important again.) The plot contrivances are so transparent that it's hard to take the show seriously anymore.
Other examples of "reset" continuity: MonkeyLord just brought up some other key problems with 6/8's and majority rule and Adama arming the gun-nuts one week after a mutiny. And let's not forget Baltar, who's been reset so many times now that nobody takes him seriously anymore. -
BUT, for a show that has only a few episodes left, more should be happened and advancing the plot.And I continue to be worried that the producers are "saving" revelations for the prequel series. I hope they don't do this, because I don't want to be forced to watch this other series, even though I probably will watch it anyway.
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seriously why bother if it causes this many problems? i honestly wish with this show they'd said fuck it all to even trying to explain shit and just stay focused on characters at this point of the show. i don't give a fuck about 6s and 8s and what the explanation for them are. I just like it when Gaius is being a self serving, selfish, delusional, materialist who communes with a God or the God or himself on occasion. In fact I don't want an explanation for it. As far as arming the rebels go, we never heard what Baltar said that convinced Adama, which I think we're going to find out later. Damn, a few weeks ago when it was all action you were all like jizzing in your pants.
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and fuck all else, cause honestly if you were on that ship chances of finding out what's what would probably be very slim.
Humans begat Cylons, who became like Humans, but human nature being what it is, Humans and Cylons have for thousands of years oppressed each other back and forth.
That's all that matters, because it's the history of our species on earth, constantly dividing ourselves into petty tribes and camps and distinguishing the enemy with simplistic platititudes so it's easier to kill and / or enslave them. For millennia, all that's happened that's really important is one race begat another, and they continually keep fucking each other over, and neither knows who God really is or who set it in motion. -
Her own words: "Great point! That was something I really loved about Kate Vernon's performance -- she totally played the way that returning to familiar (and familial) relationships can make us revert. Ellen and Saul bring out each other's worst traits, and I think Ellen was doomed to be the old Ellen Tigh again the second she saw him, regardless of any circumstances. Also, the greater availability of alcohol doesn't help.
" That sounds like someone who's empathic to how we're all a little fucked up given circumstances. -
Honestly, after investing almost 100 hours into the show, obviously we're going to stick around for the finale. That doesn't mean we don't have the right to bitch.
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It's called being pot-committed. We gotta see through the last few episodes after paying the time investment of the first four seasons.
Also, re: "when it was all action you were all like jizzing in your pants" -- I don't know how many times I have to say the same thing, but that's just not true. I thought that mutiny 2-parter started out ok and rapidly turned extremely bogus, mainly due to the usual problems: characters acting solely to further the plot (Gaeta and Capt. Kelly ruthless and or compassionate as needed, that ridiculous Rolo fan service) and poor contrivances (overpowering lousy guards over and over again; Tigh/Adama backed in a corner that Lee/Starbuck just left 5 seconds earlier, etc.)
The thing I've liked best about BSG in the past few episodes was Cavil's raging at his creator(s), a la Milton, Shelley, etc. But even that great monologue felt ever so slightly lifted from Roy Batty's farewell. (Just as Gaeta and Zarek's last moment felt lifted from Breaker Morant. But at least they steal from the good stuff.) -
Assuming things don't pick up dramatically, we can just pretend the show ends after the escape from new caprica. Its kind of how the Alien movies end with Aliens for me, I can pretend the fleet just kept flying through space looking for earth and it ended there.
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Love your worst case solution! I think that they will end this show with too many open ended silly threads (Daniel, #7 etc.) to trick everyone into watching "Caprica" end it now, and make up your own ending, It cant be as bad as what is coming. This talkback is Hilarious!
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"that's it the show's over, done". Bitch all you want, but you just admitted you're still watching. BTW, like I said, there's a show called Jag you might like, or maybe even Airwolf.
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This episode did seem to be a rather extreme example of cognitive dissonance in that so much that had come before was suddenly and rather carelessly overturned, ignored, or omitted--seemingly for no good reason. Perhaps the final few episodes will be the pay off for it, but as of right now this episode just fails to make sense on so many basic levels of storytelling it seems careless and haphazard.
Like so many others I will continue to watch because there are only a handful of episodes left and I want to see how it all ends, but this episode, as of right now, looks like a mangled piece of Swiss cheese in terms of story and character. -
Feb 21, 2009 3:38:49 PM CST
okay, after seeing next week's preview, this was'nt so bad
by the shyster
I mean it's no.5 on the bottom 5 eps/ of BSG, but a bad ep. is still light years better in quality than most other TV
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To really open my eyes to how bad this show has been getting lately, for too long it has rode the coattails of Seasons 1 and 2 but now its like being given a jolt back to reality. I for one wont make any apologies for my views others can make all the excuses for this episode that they want but it is what it is....a rejected script from a daytime soap that was supposed to have a Maury Povich cameo. As for Espenson "I hope the Six/Ellen scene isn't too close to Dolly Parton's song "Jolene," because I suppose that is the danger. I just tried to write an exchange I believed, about emotions as complex as I could muster."From the above I would suggest her muster is lacking, would go as far as say it was nonexistent but that would make me a bastard so will leave it as just fucking lacking. Bullet3 I like your worst case scenario.
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Tom Berenger shows up & says "Hi. I'm God."
but for reals
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- Tyrol's 180 took place this week the second he saw Boomer. He does love Galactica & the old man, and he's been doing what he's always done when life deals him a shitty hand: being the bast damn Chief there is.
but he's earned the right to be happy (or to try and make a grab for happiness) just as much, if not more, than Rosylin or Adama - so he's acting like anyone of us would if we found our long lost love (especially after we saw her die in his arms... from a bullet Cally fired!) -
now how's that for being human?
next week, Tyrol & Boomer = FTW -
the Adama is the dying leader theory
Could even spill over to the Galatica
She's been in pretty ratty shape since new caprica
Horribly scared on the outside since then, now they're showing us her innards -
Feb 21, 2009 3:46:36 PM CST
btw, that's not Boomer screaming at the end of the teaser
by the shyster
it's Athena
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I wonder when one of the Leobens found the time to pose for a nice, atmospheric black and white photo like that.
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is actually Bender, working a long con. See how she's always asking for alcohol?
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What the fuck?
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Feb 21, 2009 4:31:34 PM CST
so now Adama is going to allow Centurions on the ship?!?!
by boomers_lips
he's losing it alright.
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and why?
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Hot Dog finally got a good line!!
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best moment of season 3.
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For the cylon killing chemical? I mean, did the 13th tribe use chemical weapons?
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Since Boomer had no problem finding the fleet, it means Cavill shouldn't either. But he has not attacked--which supports posts/theories from last week that the reason he is holding back is the lack of resurrection tech. He doesn't want to take any chances now that he can't download. And his urgent request of Ellen was first and only to get resurrection tech again.
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and was a petty, bitchy, wannabe drunk again this week.There was hope last week that she had some knowledge AND some WISDOM that would matter, would help.Apparently, "not so much"Now the hope seems to lie with Anders memories, and with Starbuck reconciling her true nature.
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The Galactica herself is the metaphor for the whole story, the measure of it. Adama and Galactica are linked--his deterioration is hers, hers is his. Her conversion to hybrid comes with his acceptance of cylons as allies, essential for survival.Watch "Excalibur"--King Arthur and the health of the land were linked. He was ill, the land was barren. He grew strong, rode out, and flowers, trees bloomed as he passed by.
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and the Cylon FTL is in all the fleet....Hybrids will jump them all to someplace SpecialMaybe the Place Inbetween: inbetween Life and Death, inbetween the start and end of the Jump. The Place where the Opera House can be found, where long dead friends and family wait for you on the Shore.
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It's hard to believe that there are only 4 episodes left and this is what they give us? Two episodes to go to set up the finale of the series? FRAK ME.
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I agree with you for the mostpart. "Taking a Break From All Your Worries" "The Woman King" and "A Day in the Life" are, IMO the worst episodes of BSG. Most of Season 4.0 is close behind, and so is last night's episode. That being said, I still like "Dirty Hands" "CrossroadsP1", and "Sine Qua Non" and loved "Maelstrom" "Crossroads P2" "He That Believeth in Me" and everything from Revelations through "No Exit". But I do agree that Season 3's midpoint is where the show started to lose steam.
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I'd totally frak Ellen Tigh
And when a Six walks in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face
You get sprung! -
Anyone else creeped out when Ellen shows up in a Six wig, and vice-versa? Something about it just don't sit right with me.
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America is not bankrupt you are thinking of Iceland, I know the two are easy to confuse.
America's financial troubles are all part of President Obama's secret plans for world domination. To lull you into a false sense of security.
He will visit your country and while you are all at his big rally and distracted Nicholas Sarkozy and his froggy legions will invade through the Chunnel and take over your country.
Obama will make Christian Bale your puppet king and force you to worship James Callis as a god.
We will replace all your fish and chips stands with Olive Garden resturaunts and force you to refrigerate your beer.
You will have to call football soccer and we will change the name of Manchester United to the "Fancy Pansy Man's Ball Kicking Club Where You Can't Touch The Ball With Your Hands, United".
You will now have to drink coffee instead of tea.
The following changes will be made to your spelling: Colour is now Color, Shite is now Shit, Arse is now Ass, Mate is now friend, pal, chum, bud or bro.
Also Sky One could not possibly been responsible in any way for BSG. Sky One is owned by Rupert Murdoch who is not responsible for anything good on the face of planet earth.
All your base belong to us. USA USA USA -
Starbuck.
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to all the negative posters that claim that they dont like the course the show has taken and its not because theres not enuf "shooting and space battles" are BS'n ...too many people on these talkbacks dont have the intelligence or patience to sit still and watch a show that has a lot of talking for most of the episode...its true...u think ur intelligent but when the space scenes end , your brain turns off when too many words are spoken...the characters have not drifted off their "continuity"..truly the wrong word for that...continuity implies a static condition that cannot be changed...at least in this context... and to expect characters not to change or evolve is to embrace stupidity....now for specifics..they werent hovering over anders this week because he had no brain activity and was not conscious, essentially brain dead...to hover over him, asking an unconscious man questions surely would be a waste, wouldnt it ? and as for tigh crying is out of character, are u kidding ? hes a very passionate man and he just lost his unborn child...giv the man a break and give the show a break..
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huge Espenson fan, and I thought this was a mediocre and inconsistent episode ...
Morph -
I don't think I need to be lectured on intelligence by a guy who [a] uses "enuf" and [b] can't even follow my post. (I was saying the Final Five should be questioning Ellen, not Anders.) And trust me, I've forgotten more than you'll ever know.
As for continuity, it implies nothing of the sort. Continuity doesn't imply stasis -- it implies consistency from point A to point B. -
Saul Tigh to Adama when he hands over the flask to Ellen "Call that a flask? THIS is a flask"
Sorry -
So if you dont like lazy writing and huge plot holes you are not intelligent?
When you use typed words like "enuf" and "ur" the intelligence argument flies right out the window. -
sad that your only argument against me is my use of the words "enuf" and "ur" ...get over your self-important asses...this is the internet, not school.. im very intelligent, but i dont have to dignify that to internet trolls. thanks !! and i know more than both of you have ever learned or forgotten. ...have a wonderful night !!
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Shut up with that logic, because you don't know what you're talking about. "The Wire" is an entire show of character and conversations with almost no action, and that's probably my favorite show ever.
The problem is that the show keeps throwing in all this unnecasary backstory and wasting our time, while ignoring really important issues.
Like, for instance, notice how the fleet has essentially been forgotten about? Do they even know the quarum has been killed? Have they demanded new representation yet? What about the reporters, why haven't they been asking what's going on? And why isn't there more impact on the people of Galactica since the mutiny? And what about those that sided with Gaeta, are they being harassed or punished by the rest of the crew?
It used to be this show would deal with these sorts of issues.
Think about what actually happened in the last episode. There was almost 0 plot progression (the baby died, baltar got some weapons, that's it), at the same time, there hasn't been any character progression either (everyone's acting like they did before, no evolution or added insight, and none of the mythology has been fleshed out in any more detail at all. Feel free to disagree with me, but back it up with reasons WHY you think I'm wrong, not by trying to attack me personally. -
I said "near bankrupt" as for the rest of your drivel didnt read it all but its fine by me as I only spend a few months in the Uk anyway.... actually bit of a wasted post really have you run out of reasons why you think this episode was good? As for Sky One well...
After the miniseries, the regular series itself was not immediately approved due to financial considerations. Initially, Universal Studios and Sci Fi Channel both deemed that the series was unaffordable, Fortuitously, the UK network Sky One was looking to fund "high-profile American shows", "ultimately making up the difference between what Universal felt it could afford and what we needed to make the show", according to Eick. Hope that clears up Sky's involvment for you. -
for this show. Since the finding of Earth, it seems as though the show has shot it's bolt too early and everything seems a bit anti-climatic. Plus the producers seem to have written themselves into a corner having to explain things at this stage. I actually liked last nights episode, as it had some good moments with Saul. Lets give this show a break though. It has 4 episodes to come good, and a Tv movie to explain itself and hasn't gone the way of Heroes (which I gave up on at the end of the last season)
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Boomer knew where the fleet is because they are still next to Earth, and she had Ellen with her. Ellen CAME from Earth, so she probably remembers where it is. If Cavil had poked around in Ellen's brain, he would have found them, too.
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its a TV show... i bet alot of you guys sit at the TV shaking your fists and slamming down your remote when something goes amiss...call it lazy writing, gaping plot holes, whatever you like..in the end its a damn TV show...i watch every TV show that way...the only reason people 2nd guess the writers and call it lazy writing , etc is because its not satisfying YOU.... oh and did you notice i wrote nice and neat for you preppy trolls that need everything to be spelled out on the "internets" got 4 words for you...get a fucking life...please dont breed. :-)
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I fucking love this show for everything it is, top to bottom. Its by far the best scifi show ever, hell...one of the best shows ever, but I still want to see a big mother fucking space battle, I want to see all kinds of shit blowing up, I wanna see Adama ram the Galactica straight up Cavils ass, and I don't want any more questions... just some answers. I hope there right around the corner, and I don't want to hear some douchebag wax intellectual horse shit just because he thinks he's the smartest nerd on the talkbacks and is above shooting people or space explosions. Your fucking gay if you don't like space explosions brother.Anyway, Good job asshole you put us in place. Oh, and yeah I would so finger blast Ellen while doing shots from her slimy old cylon snatch crack.
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Is Galactica the dying leader?Interesting episode, I agree it was slow and seemed off, all of Jane Espenson's eps have felt like that to me, like she was writing for an alternate universe version of the show.Is Ellen's crazy behaviour is maybe due to her alcohol addiction?Where the shots of Adama looking at the ships interior maybe showing us something to do with the six's? she was always present during those scenes.
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are they still there ? i thought they had jumped away by now.
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But the Sky thing is interesting. BSG is one of the best shows out there and it's good that our networks are collaborating with the US. Rome and Band of Brothers are great examples of this union.
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loved how he kept on going back and checking on the progress of the repairs. some people may have thought it seemed to be overkill, but i thought it showed how much he loves his ship and how much he wants to know she's going to be OK
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...when is Harry going to get us some news on The Pacific?
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maybe a little, lol. i just hate that the return post cant be just pointing out that i read his post wrong. or whatever the other dude said..i would have understood that...but to throw in that im not intelligent because i used regular internet abbreviations commonly used.. this is the 'net, not grammar school... its just one of my pet peeves for internet trolls....lol
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What would it take for Herc to really hate an episode of BSG ?
How about the titles followed by a blank screen for 40 minutes or would that be poignant somehow.
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I'm not a fan, but I do use it in text messages. Some people don't understand that what is written (or typed) does not reflect on the intelligence of the poster. I will chastise you for the use of "lol" though. ;)
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He's doing what all the other patient individuals on here are doing. Waiting for the final episode to finish.
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lol...nice post.. dont get me wrong , i love a great space battle, but my brain dont turn off when its over like so many BS viewers apparently...lol ....i too love everything about the show and cant wait to see the ending they have in mind.
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I thought so, but could be wrong. It was my understanding that they keep talking about jumping, but it keeps getting put off (Roslyn's depression, Adama's booze binge, the mutiny, ending the mutiny, etc...) But, i could easily have missed something.
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Wow Silkboxer man, you are an angry slow troll aren't you? The show has gone severely downhill for a variety of real reasons 1- characters not making sense 2- plot points pulled out of nowhere 3- horrible writing 4- resetting characters so much you can't care or relate to them or their struggles anymore etc. etc.
All I've seen from you is a bunch of nasty personal insults, childish abbreviations no functioning adult would use and no coherent points.
Of course, I must not get it, I expect things to make sense, and stay coherent within the boundaries that the first 60% of this series set up as parameters for the world they created. You represent the last of the Battlestar faithful, angry that people are picking apart a once great show, and desperate to make sense of the tremendous pile of garbage that the writers are trying to shove down a shrinking audience's throat.
Now get back to text messaging the other 13 year old girls on your block. -
yea im a regular offender on the LOL front...
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This seems to be building up to one sad ending. Adama's judgement is off (as he gives out guns to Baltar) and he's taking pills as well as getting drunker than Tigh. The fleet has degenerated into a mess and the crew of Galactica is despondant. There will be one event that will unite them all, Cylon and Human, but I'm not holding out hope for a happy ending.
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Was anyone else picturing Adama wandering around the FTL repairs, sloppy drunk off his ass, crying and pestering the workers. Like that guy at the staff party who gets wrecked, but he's your boss so you can't tell him to fuck off...
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Everyone I spoke to loved S4E16 and I think the last of the BSG faithful are more numerous than you think.
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i should say WOW to you. i had to stop laughing before i could write back...hahahaha. lets see...hmmm....i call you a troll, so you call me a troll. real mature. i really suggest you seek counseling. your freakish expectations of everything to make sense and apparently your need to make every one of your posts grammatically perfect suggests mental problems. i dont expect perfection, i expect to be entertained. and YES i can ignore certain inconsistencies because ....wait for it..... its a TV show. AKA it really doesnt affect my life one way or the other...the real "trolls" like you have nothing else better to do with yourselves then watch a show, cry like a baby when something is not the way YOU want it to be, and go on the internet for 12+ hours crying on the internet about it again...read posts from people like me who just watch a show and dont expect it to be perfect.....have a tantrum and cry again....then realize the only thing u can throw at me is that i use "childish abbreviations" which are common internet lingo....and then return the TROLL comment back to me....so yes id like you to seek therapy before i read that you hung yourself in your mommys basement because someone used abbreviations on the internets...geeez....im not going to dignify you with any more responses... youre not worth the effort...
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I thought that too. At least he didn't try to dance with one of the 6's and then cop a feel.
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yes we are quite numerous.. :-))
oh, and before you say it again.... it was more HARSH than last time ... hahahah -
Battlestar Galactica is quality entertainment. As cylons and humans come together to survive, so must we all. Besides, if your still watching the show only to come on here and gripe about it, then deep down, you still love it and will be with it until the end just like everyone else. So were all the same in the end, right?
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your 4 "real" reasons why the show has gone downhill are invalid. 1- I like the main characters more now then at the beginning. 2- plot points pulled out of nowhere are exactly like real life. youve heard the expression stranger than fiction, right? 3- if the writing was horrible, would it have this many fans? 4- what does resetting characters mean?
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to a new star cluster at the end of the first episode of the final ten. They can't jump presently because of the Galactica's condition. Cool that the hybrid Galactica may become stronger than a base ship! Cavil has no idea what he's in for.
Baltar, Baltar. Everything he says, or does, unwittingly turns out to be a catastrophe for humanity. Will things be different this time? Nope. -
What a let down after last weeks superior episode! Having Ellen come off as a jealous bitch when last week she was the 'creator of us all' really was awful.
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YES it still is quality entertainment. as for ellen returning to her bitchy self, i honestly think saul brings that part of her to the surface.
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my opinion on this episode: meh. But there is an explanation for how they found the fleet: Ellen is the only one of the final five to have all her memories from the past--she knew where earth was, so that's where she told boomer to take her.
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Remmber the writers have reduced the F5 to nothing but scientists. They are not "Gods" or God-like. They just happened to rediscover resurrection technology. I'm sure many "real" scientists today do awesome work in the lab such as searching for a cancer cure and then go home and fight with the wife and bitch an moan.
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but even if not, and they were still there, how did Boomer know that Ellen knew where the fleet was--the Cavill cylons didn't know for sure that the Fleet had even found earth yet, much less lingered there.
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Said it again after Exodus.
Repeated it a few more times since.
GIVE. MICHAEL. HOGAN. AN. EMMY! -
Boomer could still be on Cavill's team, and this was just a way for her to lead them to the fleet, and the other Four.If Cavill finally believed that Ellen does actually need the other Four to access the resurrection tech, and he doesn't know where they are, then having Boomer take her wherever she wants to go would be a good ploy.
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totally legit, and you know it!
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Also, remember once again that the F5 are not 2000 ears old with all the experience and elightenment that carries... they were born on Earth, died in the holocaust, resurected and then they travelled at relativistic speeds to the colonies, meaning that a 2000 year journe seemed like maybe a few ears for them. So, in effect the F5 have been demoted to being just like normal people albeit with technical nohow for resurection tech. So in my opinion having a spaz because a young blondie is pregnant to you husband who ou went through so much shit to be together is probably a natural reaction, and the new Ellen has all her Colony/New Caprica memories so it would be easy to slip into that.
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Good to see her back, looking fine in white, and in fine manipulative fettle, too....Baltar didn't even flinch when she arrived, and parroted her words smoothly, right thru the Bigger Guns bit without even realizing what was happening.
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in a recent issue of TVGuide, Tahmoh said that Helo will have a steamy scene with "Sharon" in the Feb. 27th episode. It will turn out that it wasn't Athena that he was with. Another Eight sneaked into his room.
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was not just Adama alone that Baltar had to convince to give him the guns. Lee and Roslin were also in the room. It appeared that Baltar had approached them first, made a convincing argument and all three of them went together to talk to Adama about the guns. The President and Adama may no longer be completely in their right minds but, Lee is still competent.
Giving Baltar the guns was their best choice in a list of bad options. -
I may be annoyed that Espenson spent almost an entire episode (towards the end of the series!) proving that the figurehead of the final 5 can still revert to the world of her soap opera memories ... but I can at least understand it. Tyrol's "decision" to leave the fleet behind, however, seems to have been manufactured purely out of "dramatic necessity". All the interaction between the final-5 this week was more confusing and muddled than Anders' expositionary tirades last episode (which quite frankly, probably were the best way to convey all that information, however clumsy a method).
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"...but, Athena, BABE, you know I can't tell none of ya'll apart! Don't blame the playa, blame da clHOne... Babe, how do I even know I am talkin to YOU now? It is confusing and that's a fact."
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I think the same thing. Cavil let them go. He is on his way right now. There's going to be a showdown.
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So much else could've been done with this episode, but instead we're given more relationship crap. The death of Tigh's and 6's baby could've been done much better than it was. At first I thought this ep was going to remove the "Gaius is Jesus" storyline, but as the ep progressed, it firmly placed it back to the forefront. What's this crap about food fights and infighting? Dammit, there's only 4 eps left, and they decide to push this shitty ep on us. The last 4 better be good.
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Are you joking? It's hard to tell with the way the show has been progressing lately. If true, then it sound like more soap opera BS. A guy thinks he's sleeping with his wife but it's actually her twin sister. It's good to know that the show is focusing on such important stuff in the final few episodes.
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last ep had him warmly welcomed/invited back as Chief by Adama, and Tyroll's obvious concern for the welfare of the Galactica itself.All the more strange, since the vote was about leaving in An HOUR. If he had voted "yes, but only after repairs here are completed" it would have been more consistent.
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I seem to recall in season 1 that those photos were on their wanted posters sent around the fleet. Since each one of them lead a life as a plant in the colonies and in the fleet, it's not odd that they had a picture of them. Now, one might wonder why they would care in that way... which brings up another point. If all the cylon models are wanting to differentiate themselves, you'd think they'd start consciously altering their hair, clothing etc... (I mean the characters, not the actors ) so that they can feel more unique.
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Another theme I wanted to see explored which really hasn't happened. None of the cylons, post no resurrection ship, have had an emotional break down due to the fear of their mortality. Shit, I freaked myself out so bad one night late at night thinking about the fear of dying and there possibly not being an afterlife, what it would feel like to simply not exist, etc that I ended up having to watch letterman and get drunk. Now, for cylon's they're used to resurrection tech and now it's gone. They mention this again and again but no one seems to lose their composure or worry about it. Of course I'd trade all that for a few more viper scenes :) -
i'm not joking. Tahmoh Penikett was being interviewed for his new show, DOLLHOUSE on Fox, and the TVGuide person asked him to reveal a little spoiler or something for season 4.5 and that's what he revealed.
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I don't get why so many people were so surprised by Tyrol's decision to leave with the Cylons. Have you been watching the show for the last year? The guy nearly ripped Adama apart last season before being demoted. He found out he's a cylon. His wife died, and the kid he thought was his he knows now isn't. He's got nothing on Galactica now. He's not even loved by his crew the way he once was. Even when he agreed to help ADama repair Galactica, it was halfhearted. He figured he was stuck there, so why not try to help. There was no, "Oh, thank you sir, so much for having me back," there were no musy apologies or any moments of regret. Tyrol hasn't been the "Chief" we knew from the first two seasons for a LOOONNG time now. His decision made perfect sense to me.
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1. the Sixes are the only ones that alter their appearnce to reflect their own uniqueness. be been shown Sixes with White, Blonde, Brown and Black hair in the series, and they also dress diferrently. The Eights try to be differnt but they dont get very far. they all have the same hair color and haircut. Boomer is the only one with bangs in her hair. 2. I think John Cavil has gone even more nuts because he fears mortality and therefore wanted Ellen's head cut open so he could pick apart her brain and learn how to recreate resurrection technology.
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Good grief, it wasn't that damn bad.
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None of this makes sense. None of it. The dates are off. The facts are off. Everything is off. Consider this alternate universe.
All of this has happened before...
Earth - Origin of humanity.
My wild, crazy, alternate universe theory goes as follows...Human beings are from Earth...yes, Earth. Remember, forget everything we know. This makes no sense.
Man creates a machine race to do its bidding. The machines grow self aware yet they are still loyal to their makers. In fact they want to be like their makers. The next step. Biological machines. Human beings create synthetic bio-matter, which they hope can help people in need of transplants, people with disabilities etc. They create the first flesh and blood machines.
This new race prospers and is pretty much indistinguishable from a human.
The mechanical models are obsolete and soon waste away, leaving only the biologicals. Then something impossible happens. A human mates with a biomachine and a child is born. Then another, and another and another.
Humans fear extinction. Machines fear annihilation. War breaks out on Earth. But it isn't a war of race. It's a war of ideals. Fought between those who embrace the half human/half machine race and those who reject it. Humans and machines fight against humans and machines.
In the end, the world is devestated and faces a long nuclear winter.
The only choice for the survivors is to leave Earth behind and find a new home. Thirteen ships leave Earth.
12 carry the last of the human race and the thirteenth carries the last of the machines. They find a new world and christen it Kobol.
Both the humans and biomachines fear that that war could break out again on this new world, so a machine/human is selected from each ship to serve on a governing council. The machines have no representative as they fear that further contact with humans could result in another war. So they isolate themselves on the far side of Kobol, only making contact to trade with humans. The other 12 form the governing council and become known as the Lords Of Kobol.
Years pass. There is peace on Kobol. It isn't destined to last. The humans, always fearful of their neighbours, the machines, reject the pleas of the Lords Of Kobol and begin isolating the machines even further. (The Lords of Kobol don't age incidentally). they stop trading with the machines, exclude them from discussions on global matters. Not wanting war, the machines petition for a representative on the council. The Lords of Kobol choose Iblis (yes, Iblis), a machine/human but the humans of Kobol vote to reject the petition. War seems inevitable.
So the machines take the last option left to them. Iblis leads them away from Kobol, back across the galaxy, back to Earth. The only problem is, they can't find it. The nuclear winter should be over and the Earth should be ready to support life again but it is lost to the heavens. So Iblis leads them to a new Earth. A place where they can live and grow. They have evolved so far by this stage that they are now capable of procreation.
Back on Kobol, the humans have grown to revere the Lords of Kobol as gods. Centuries pass and their identities as human/machine hybrids have been lost, replaced by the myth of deities. The Lords grow more reclusive. Only they remember what they really are and are wary of perpetuating the myths and legends about them. Humans are left to their own devices. The Lords only interfere to prevent humans from creating machine intelligence, fearing more war. But humans have a way of finding battle no matter what. They fight each other. A world war that the Lords are powerless to prevent.
Kobol is decimated. So the Lords look to the stars for help, perhaps searching for their long lost brothers, hoping for help to end the destruction. What they find in the heavens is something else. Something quite unique.
A single solar system. Twelve worlds all capable of sustaining life. A chance to start fresh. The Lords of Kobol decide to stay behind. History has taught them that when any element of machine life interacts with humans, disaster happens. So they stay behind. They hope that without them, human beings may have a chance to thrive, to survive.
On the new Earth, the machine race have been procreating for centuries. But they have grown tired of the troubles of life and create a new machine race, mechanical in nature, to make their lives better. Iblis though, has grown to despise his human side and hate the flesh. He disappears and plots the downfall of the machines made flesh. the mechanicals are the future. Iblis teaches them about freedom, gives them sentience, and they rebel against their creators. There are only 5 survivors of the nuclear holocaust that ends the war.
These 5 rediscover resurrection and escape the planet. Their thoughts turn to their own creators, fearing that the humans will repeat the mistakes of the past and so the set out across the heavens to warn them.
On Caprica, a brilliant scientist creates a machine intelligence that he calls "Cylon". All of this has happened before.... -
There are a few things I need to say...
First, it's not finished as there is the fate of Iblis to consider and the "real Earth". The reason i have 2 Earth's is because Ron Moore said that the world Galactica found was one the thirteenth tribe "christened" Earth. But they never came back so how could the name "Earth" be in Pythia? Well maybe it isn't the real Earth. Again, this is all alternate, plothole universe. -
the planet in ruins that the 13th tribe settled on was called Earth by the settlers and I'm betting Kobol will turn out to be our Earth.
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Iblis...what happened to him according to my wild inaccurate theory? well this of course is of no importance because there are only a few episodes lefts and not enough time to really develop the character, but I did have the idea that maybe Iblis, knowing that the war he started on Earth was going to be lost, made his own plans to escape....I was going to make him Baltar, but I think Baltar works better as a human traitor, not a human/cylon cross breed.
So I came up with the idea that Iblis used a variation on download technology to survive within the final five and ultimately the Cylons of the colonies. When Caprica was nuked and Baltar was saved, a part of Iblis' consciousness was transferred from Six to Baltar, and the in head six is basically a part of Iblis. But his true self exists within Cavill. Cavill is Iblis.
Again, makes no sense...full of holes, alternate universe..indulge me haha -
I understand your point. Throughout the series, though, the Chief has held Adama in very high regard. Adama has always reciprocated with understanding some of the Chief's demons as evidenced in the boxing scene between the Chief and Adama. Tyrol goaded Adama into demoting him after Cally's death out of frustration and despair that, for the first time, the Admiral could offer him no solace. Adama doesn't know he's a cylon at that point. With the revelation that he is cylon, there are no secrets anymore, and Adama resets the clock with the words, "I have a Galen". Strange he would now effectively spit in the face of Adama at the hint of a chance to flee. Didn't Espenson state that characters don't change when she explicitly brought back the old-style Ellen? I guess Tyrol didn't fall under that idea.
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...of the posters on here who think the show owes them something. How many fucking television shows out there whose every single episode sucks ass stay on network television for 14 fucking seasons? So Season 4 has one not-so-great episode and you all feel justified in expressing your bullshit opinions on some forum? Like any of you know jack-shit about writing for a television show? I have an idea. Get off your fucking high-horses and give it a rest. Or even better, put together all of your stellar television-script-writing talent and go pitch Stargate: Akron, or Stargate: My Closet, or Stargate: Another Stargate: Another Stargate to SciFi Channel, and stop wasting my time reading this forum to get to the actual insightful posts.
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That was the greatest parody of a pissed off Talkbacker that I've ever read. Good job, sir!
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...In favor of a new pilot called BALTAR'S BODACIOUS BABE BRIGADE.
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There has to be a lot of group showering in it, though.
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...Make sure you ice up your wrists from all that typing, BTW.
I agree that the Lords Of Kobol were likely Cylons, but I'm under the impression that at some point, the humans deposed the Lords, then ganged up on the Earth Cylons to wipe them out. Ellen said something on this latest episode to the effect that "you had 50,000 left...there were only five of us". Sounded almost like she was comparing two acts of genocide, but I may be wrong... -
...Bras-and-panties tickle fights, all-nude boarding parties (pixellated only before 10pm). Good stuff.
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In the mini series, Starbuck indicated that the Colonial Fleet had 120 Battlestars at least, more like the Pegasus and less like the Galactica.
You'd think the Cylons would have had at least as many Base Stars. Cavil did also mention there were millions of each type of model.
The Colonials and Cylon in fighting might have at most destroyed 12 Base Stars. So, there should be at least dozens of Cylon Base Stars to chase the fleet.
So, where are they?
Or are they just conveniently sweeping this under the carpet and ignoring this leaving us with Cavil + 4 Base Stars. -
We have seen Kobol; the continents are wrong. Earth was seen in Crossroads 2 as it is today.
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What if Daniel was Starbuck's father? Ellen said Daniel was "an artist" and if i recall there was a lot of paintings around her flat on Caprica. Maybe she has been a cylon human halfbreed all along?
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Aside from the fact it's too late in the game to have an episode like this unless it pays off awesomely in the next couple of episodes, my initial impression was that it was more of a directing or editing problem. Lack of continuity in the Caprica 6 story, flicking back to Adama checking out the ship too many times and out of context with the other stuff he's doing, and not showing more closeups of Tyrol realising he could have a life away from Galatica with Boomer. These seemed to be more poor directing and editing choices becuase everything I had problems with didn't have any dialogue!
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Genius. Please get a script to Sci-Fi immediately.
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I just don't think it's a dramatic change for the Tyrol of the last couple seasons, really since his time on New Caprica. It's a VERY different Tyrol from the one we saw in the first two seasons, but he's long since changed.
Tyrol's been a tormented "man" for a long time now. Remember his conversations with Cavil early on? Remember his nightmares when he beat the crap out of Cally? Remember when he shaved his head?
I would agree with you if last week, Tyrol had uttered some sort of emotional thank you to Adama for making him chief again and asked for Adama's forgiveness or assured Adama that he was on the side of the humans now for good, like Tigh seems to be.
But if you'll notice, his reactions were totally subdued, like, "Yeah, whatever." He's beginning to embrace his cylon side, also evidenced in the slight wince you could detect when Adama said, "All workers must be human." That was another subtle blow to Tyrol. He simply doesn't feel a part of the fleet anymore, not the way he used to.
He saved the day because if Gaeta had succeeded in his mutiny, he and all the Cylons would most likely have been airlocked. He wanted to save the ship because where else could he go? Now, he KNOWS where else he could go, somewhere with his REAL people. It's not that he hates Galactica or Adama suddenly...it's just that he no longer feels a part of them. It's like he's suddenly realized he's adopted and his real family has appeared miraculously.
Again, he has really nothing on Galactica. No wife, no child, no real respect and love from the crew anymore. And it's obvious to me that he's still an emotional basketcase (his experience last season with Gaius' cult is another example).
He has LONG AGO abandoned the sure-of-himself, driven-by-loyalty Tyrol that we saw in the season's early days.
His decision to leave makes absolutely perfect sense to me. -
Glad it's so easy to get "ur" silk panties in a bunch. How are the 13 year old girls n your Troll neighborhood?
the countdown to the horrible ending of the series is on! -
For the most part, this show mirrors with broad strokes the major events of the original series. More or less. On Galactica 1980, Starbuck was rescued by the "Beings of Light". Then the series was cancelled. The next Starbuck script that was written but never filmed, had Starbuck coming back as one of the "Guardians of the Universe". Trust me, Kara is not Daniel and is not a Cylon. Besides, the Cylons could never completely replicate a Colonial Viper, as least not perfectly.
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Thanks for your insights, I appreciated them very much. I suppose this is one of those things where reasonable minds can disagree. At any rate, though, I'm more comfortable accepting what transpired in the show re: the Chief after your write-up. Cheers!
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Would you give up immortality just because you also had children. How exactly does that make sense? Both may preserve the species, but resurrection also preserve YOUR existence in particular. Sorry, it was bothering me...
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Even if everything you wrote is accurate - which I'm happy to agree with, or not - the perceived necessity for such a document speaks volumes about the huge problems this show has created for itself. There's complex and layered and then there's convoluted and all-over-the-place. BSG is all of these things, somehow.
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I see BSG waiting in my DVR list and I'm psyched. I'm up for it, but then I watch it and it sucks. That is the story of my current viewing experience. No, there is no fucking way they are gonna pull this off. I will be SHOCKED if they salvage this thing. More likely it will get worse by the end.
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Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-ZyF8_HHe8&feature=related seemd soneone has leeked a promom of the final episode!!
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The series ends with everyone getting expelled.
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"the perceived necessity for such a document speaks volumes about the huge problems this show has created for itself."
As I said earlier, EVERYONE has questions about what's going on in BSG. *But* not everyone is confused on the same subject matter. To say that "oh, it takes the whole document to understand BSG! The show must be too complicated!" Well that's not true. It's misrepresentative. Not everyone needs EVERY BIT of information I posted. Some people only asked one or two of those questions. When you add all those different questions up, then yeah, it looks pretty damn complicated. But what exactly DOES that say about the show? Can you imagine a list of answers to questions on the Godfather Part II of similar size that answers what is going on in that film? I visited a lot of BSG talkbacks on AICN and many other sites to make that list. It isn't fair to say that a viewer is going to need all that exposition from an outside source (outside reading) to understand or enjoy the show. Most people watching have a question or two, not the entire lengthy spiel I posted earlier. -
I always wanted to know why they couldn't just build another resurrection ship, in fact I swear they said at some point that it was not the only one... how could the Cylons have a fleet so big, manpower so large, collective intelligence so large that they couldn't simply build another one? I love BSG but that's a pretty difficult plot hole to patch up. and your thoughts about why they'd be willing to give up on ressurrection are in the same spirit... why give it up? I suppose if they built up the religious element here saying that the cylon God wants us to learn how to love, and you can't love without true sacrifice, and in turn, mortality.
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BSG has simply set up too many plot threads for them all to be satisfactorily resolved in the short time that's left. At this point, we'd need another dozen episodes to wrap things up to everyone's satisfaction. These final episodes *can't* be all action, without sacrificing character arcs. And yeah, of course the early BSG episodes were terrific, because the themes were pretty simple -- survive and kill Cylons -- which made for lean, tense stories. Things have gotten more complicated. Unfortunately, the increased complexity means something's gonna get short shrift. I really wish they had done even a half dozen more episodes. Oh well.
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There are many resurrection ships. There is only one Hub. The Colonial Skinjobs DON'T know how to reproduce the resurrection Hub because they didn't create that technology; the Final Five produced the technology contained in the Hub. That's not a plot hole. It was explained in the last episode.
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The "why can't the skinjobs just build another resurrection ship" question is one I can't figure out, either. I mean, wouldn't the plans for it be in some kind of database somewhere? I mean, if I can keep a copy of my auto insurance card from 1998 on a cd-rom in my closet, I would hope that super-advanced cylons would have blueprints somewhere for THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SHIP IN THEIR ENTIRE FLEET. Or, even if they didn't have the original plans, in the whole time they had the resurrection ship, they weren't able to analyze it and figure out how to build another one? I don't get it.
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He wonders why give up resurrection at all then? Are you thinking that's why Ellen wants the final 5 to leave the ship, so they can rebuild that and give up on the "progressive" path? I'll buy that. If they're going to explore that though, I think they needed another 10 episodes :)
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Having it be that the skinjobs simply don't know how to reproduce the hub -- thanks for the clarification there -- feels like more of a plot device than an actual explanation. I have a hard time buying the idea that these beings with such super-advanced technological knowledge very conveniently can't figure out how to reverse-engineer this resurrection technology. Or was that ability somehow deliberately blocked by the Final Five?
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I actually loved that aspect of this last couple episodes. I wish they had gone deeper on the topic in this episode.... that Ellen is mortified that he's sleeping with what is effectively "family" to her.
Of course there's some plot grey area here in that we never seen skinjob children, yet several times they've spoken of cylon embryos now. I would find it hard to believe that Ellen would treat them all as their children psychologically if she hadn't actually bonded with them as children. -
Why is it being set up as if the Colonial's remaining military power and the Cylon's military power are roughly equivalent? The whole reason the Galactica is jumping around the universe is because that wasn't the case at all. Even with a Cylon Baseship in the fleet, that makes it 2 military ships versus thousands? of Cylon basestars. Whereas the Colonial fleet cannot add any additional ships while being on the run, what has prevented the Cylons from enlarging their fleet?
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Feb 22, 2009 2:40:01 PM CST
Who ever said they're equivalent? Not being set up that way
by chromedome
that I can see.
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"He wonders why give up resurrection at all then?" - Natalie (the 6 leader from season 4.0) explained this in "Guess WHat's Coming to Dinner." When the rebel Cylons were on the run from Cavil, they had no resurrection ship and became mortal. They began to realize that mortality gave significance to their lives, because it made time important: what they did that morning, what they were going to achieve with the time left in their lives, etc. instead of banking on living forever, which they felt seemed pointless. Personally, I don't think I'd mind it that much. But I don't find it too hard to believe, IMO, the Cylons have a weird cult-like mentality that makes me think of a Heaven's Gate organization. I can see how shunning immortality might make sense to what are essentially fanatics.
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Why would they need to reverse engineer anything? They had Ellen, whom they assumed could build the thing if there was ever a need for it. "I have a hard time buying the idea that these beings with such super-advanced technological knowledge very conveniently can't figure out how to reverse-engineer this resurrection technology. " Well, that's your assumption. That's fine. I personally don't expect a single culture to be superior in every single aspect of science. It Took the Russians years to reproduce the B29 from one they captured. The Cylons have only lost Resurrection in the last few months. Why is it so difficult to believe that the Cylons would rather take the information from Ellen, whom they have captured, than to try and reverse engineer the thing from millions of tiny pieces floating through space?
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Since when have the Cylons ever been consistent? The sixes and eights have been all over the place. Cavil and Leoben are practically insane. The final five are mostly unstable too and have always been portrayed as such (except maybe Anders). The Cylons obviously have some design flaws.
Tyrol makes perfect sense to me. He doesn't feel like he belongs among the humans anymore ever since Callie, his daughter and his human identity were taken from him. Unlike Tory, he's not lashing out against his former colleagues. But why wouldn't he jump at the chance for a life when he has no future on Galactica? Being welcomed back by some sad old alcoholic just isn't enough for him. The look on his face says it all. His willingness to listen to Baltar speaks to his desperation.
As for Ellen, they've made it crystal clear that she and Saul bring out the worst in each other. She wasn't out of character this week, she was (slightly) out of it last week. It wasn't any kind of profound wisdom she was demonstrating, she was patronizing Cavil in her petty manner because she sees the 7 cylons as her children. This week she finds out Tigh is having a child with one of her lesser creations and lost it. She has a history on the show of going back and forth between being somewhat classy and throwing tantrums. A typical woman, IMO. But more importantly, a typical Ellen.
Now I'm not defending what the show has become. I haven't considered it a great show since about halfway through the second season. But I don't understand why everyone has turned on it over this one episode. It's like everyone turned a blind eye to all the crap that came before, having full faith that their patience would be rewarded in the end and now you all suddenly feel betrayed. Well the truth is is that this ep was better than most of the eps from last season, you just have a problem with the timing.
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What you say is true to a point - not every viewer is asking every one of those questions. But a lot of people ARE asking a lot of questions. Sure you could take any movie or TV show and make a list of questions and say "see? anything looks complicated that way" - but that's a bit of a straw man. Things can be questioned for good reason, and things can be questioned for bad reason. An example of a bad reason is: Having an entire series' backstory revealed in one episode via exposition delivered by an actor playing a man with a head injury and thus speaking in a less-than-clear manner. In other words, too much important information unloaded at once and unloaded clumsily. That's not why you want people wondering what the fuck is going on, when they're wondering because the communication was poor.
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"Even with a Cylon Baseship in the fleet, that makes it 2 military ships versus thousands?"
I think the most we have ever seen onscreen was 8 basestars. Galactica destroyed 1 basestar in Season 1, Galactica and Pegasus destroyed 2 in Resurrectionship Battle, Pegasus destroyed 1 in "Captain's Hand" and 3 were destroyed during the New Caprica assault. 1 basestar was destroyed in the attack on The Hub. That's seven destroyed, 1 turned Rebel, and 6 remaining of the ones we have seen.
There has never been an indication of how many Basestars existed. What we know is that the colonies were nuked. Could have been suitcase bombs, could have been raiders, could have been Baseships. No clue. Due to the Cylon Computer Virus, taking out 120 Baseships isn't that difficult. In fact, these were NO BASESHIPS during the attack on the Scorpion fleet shipyards. Just raiders armed with nukes. -
"An example of a bad reason is: Having an entire series' backstory revealed in one episode"
That's an exaggeration. I also don't see why revealing "everything" in one episode is MORE complicated. If you don't like the execution, that's one thing. But for my money, I think the confusion isn't over what was revealed in No Exit, but rather trying to pick up the pieces dropped throughout the WHOLE series (the exact opposite of what you suggest). I really don't think what Anders or Ellen said was all that complicated. The FF were on Earth, which was nuked in a fight with Centurions. They downloaded into new bodies, built the Skinjobs for the centurions, and were boxed by Cavil. I thought was expressed quite well. -
Daniel was being reincarnated as the baby, baby died, no resurrection ship available, ah but there was a shell of a Cylon available - in the form of Sam. Coincidence? The baby died, then Sam's brain activity started again at that time.
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You're taking my words out of context. The quote you used was the beginning of a longer statement. I also didn't say the word "everything", I also didn't say the backstory was complicated. So most of your post I can't really respond to since it references points I didn't even make. But I will say if you read the posts from last week's TB you will see a lot of people were confused by what Anders said. And I'll repeat that people are confused with the show overall because there are perceived holes and inconsistencies. Some of these are conceptual ie this wasn't planned out very well and they're just bulldozing through anyway - and some are in the execution, ie poor storytelling. The issue of Anders' story is mostly due to the latter, as I described in the post above - and possibly because of the former too. We'll see by series end.
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Lots. The Cylons fought toe to toe against the humans during the first Cylon war. Did they dispose of their fleet and rest on their hands after the Armistace?
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This is one of those things that annoys the hell out of me about Science Fiction on TV and in the movies...it doesn't even come close to how utterly bizarre the future societies painted by theorists like Von Neumann, Dyson or Kurzweil are.
Logic dictates that the Cylons, being machines, should have disassembled entire solar systems to build up their numbers. A Cylon Fleet built up exponentially over forty years would fill the sky around an infinitesimal human fleet.
Just a gripe. Getting back to the show, the real problem for Cavil and Co. is that the humans jump away every time they get close...the solution is to sabotage them from within, which I believe is happening with the conversion of fleet ships to Cylon FTL, and culminating in the Cylon "repairs" on the Galactica. Behemoth and _Maltheus are correct: Tyrol is a getting VERY comfortable with being a Cylon. -
I think the writers are being intentionally vague with Anders. They chose to bottle him up (using the coma as a plot device).
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as far as we know, there were only 12 battlestars in Cylon War 1. We know that old models were scrapped per Razor. There are at least 14 new Baseships in the new series.
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they only have a few eps left and they waste time on whether Tigh loves Caprica or Ellen? who gives a fuck?
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When he 'unboxed her' and she learned that the resurrection ship was gone, she snapped his neck! I believe that was the last Cavil, yes?? So he is gone for good.
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Very interesting indeed!
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She's the one that was in love with Gaius, right? Who then popped up in his head? So how did she wind up getting over Gaius and then hooking up with Tigh when in jail? Is the Caprica-6 in Balthar's head (glad to see her return) related to the real one in any way?
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Caprica 6 and Tigh hooking up is about as credible and satisfying as the Kira/Odo relationship.
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Feb 22, 2009 9:48:05 PM CST
Grace Park 'Boomer' says that "The Plan" doesn't make sense.
by boomers_lips
over at Galactica.tv she was interviewed about her role in the new BSG movie, The Plan, and she said that there are alot of Boomer scenes and alot of Cavil scenes. She also said that there's a shitload of information that is revealed that just does not fit in with what the show has been about for the past 4 seasons. She added that they've built this whole "stick pile of a story on a bunch ofrocks" and if they're not careful it's gonna cone crashing down." well fuck me, that doesn't sound too promising.
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Odo could satisfy Kira however she wanted.
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Number Three (Lawless) only killed a copy of the Number One series (Stockwell AKA Cavil).
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not all the Cavils. And there is no guarantee that the Cavil she killed din't resurrect in time to flee before the Hub exploded.
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...Tyrol and Boomer as a reward for fans who have stuck with the show from Season 1 IMHO. And Tyrol should be the deciding/swing vote, having his emotions stretched due to Boomer.Ellen from last week clearly would see things differently and understand Tigh, Six and the baby (i.e. "I conspired with the enemy. I died. You moved on and stuff happened.").The Ellen story from here on out should have been about turning the tables on Cavil with the Final Five. Her story has to be about redemption now since she created a monster (Cavil).Not to take anything away from Jane Espenson though, she's a good writer.
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He could have resurrected in another Resurrection Ship, which would have still been functional until the Hub was blown a few minutes later.
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Hello people! Daniel is the original Starbuck (Dirk Benedict) and he was reborn as new cooler female Starbuck! Explains the whole freakin series!
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In the miniseries, when Starbuck was told that 30 Battlestars had been destroyed, she said that was a quarter of the fleet (meaning at least 120 in total).
So, for the Cylons to think they had any chance of winning, you'd think they would need a bare minimum of 1:1 parity of Base Stars to Battlestars.
Also, you'd think that they'd have superior manufacturing capability to the Colonials, so it would make sense to build (grow?) a lot Base Stars for the assault.
So where are they?
After all, attacking an enemy with even a 2:1 advantage in capital ships is asking for trouble.
After all, what if the virus didn't work? Or didn't knock out all of the enemy's defences - which would have seemed the most likely outcome before the event.
So where is the rest of the missing Cylon armed forces? Prematurely pensioned off? -
... by contradicting them ...
... I will be even more upset than I am with the trainwreck this show has turned into -
Ever heard of Pearl harbor? The Cylons didn't need a 1:1 ratio. They had the computer virus and the element of surprise. All those vipers and battlestars were left floating in the air while Cylons ass-raped them. A single squadron of Cylon raiders knocked out the entire scorpionfleet shipyard (2 battlestars, several smaller ships, the dock, and damn near the Pegasus).It only took 2 raiders to destroy an entire squadron of Galactica's vipers. What good are 120 battlestars if they can't even move? Why bother considering what would have happened if the computer virus didn't work? Why do you feel it necessary to fight the premise? Maybe they knew it would be successful by testing it. There were agents in the fleet, afterall, and had access to the dept of defense mainframe. Less than 20 men with boxcutters managed to kill thousands of people, terrorize an entire country, severely damage the most important military facility in the world, and destroy billions of dollars in property for the price of training, ID and a few airline tickets. It isn't always about numbers or achieving some ratio. Sometimes surprise and a good plan are all it takes.
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Also, space is quite big. Bigger than a really big thing. If you have 120 basestars you wouldn't send all of them chasing after the Galactica. There are still 12 Colonies, Kobol, New Caprica, Homeworld and various other unknown corners of the Empire to patrol.
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Somehow a virus that can knock out every piece of military hardware across twelve planets and a centralised defence computer in an unguarded room is quite ridiculous. However, like most things in the movies, if you keep moving things briskly it doesn't actually
Pearl Harbor, I think is a bad corollary. The attacking forces and defending forces were actually relatively close to 1:1 in offensive vs defensive capabilities.
You'd need a fair number of offensive forces. The miniseries itself implied the attacks were simultaneous over the colony worlds, military bases and so on.
My point is just that now, the sides seem to be Cavil and his 4 Base Stars and ... that's it. How are they explaining what happened to the rest? At one point Caprica had 3 Base Stars in orbit alone while others were pursuing the fleet in Season 2. -
Somehow a virus that can knock out every piece of military hardware across twelve planets and a centralised defence computer in an unguarded room is quite ridiculous. However, like most things in the movies, if you keep moving things briskly it doesn't actually
Pearl Harbor, I think is a bad corollary. The attacking forces and defending forces were actually relatively close to 1:1 in offensive vs defensive capabilities.
You'd need a fair number of offensive forces. The miniseries itself implied the attacks were simultaneous over the colony worlds, military bases and so on.
My point is just that now, the sides seem to be Cavil and his 4 Base Stars and ... that's it. How are they explaining what happened to the rest? At one point Caprica had 3 Base Stars in orbit alone while others were pursuing the fleet in Season 2. -
Against whom?
I wasn't suggesting sending all of them. Just about 20 should do it. -
it doesn't actually matter if a plot device is stupid if you analyse it in great depth - just as long as the story is kept entertaining, which it was for a long time. (After all the first Cylon war lasted years, maybe decades while the 2nd lasted less than 24 hours? Kind of embarrassing for the Colonials).
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Adama wakeing up in bed puts his hand to his head and says
"Frak, what did I do last night??"
The phone next to his bed rings and a hand hangs it up. But its not Adama's hand its--------Tighs.
Tigh- "gods dam it, my ass shore hurts!! What did I do last night?? Waight these aren't my quarters!!"
Adam and Tigh- "Oh shit!!" -
she says those things in regards to the mythology she herself had built up about the show. furthermore in the same interview she says "I think it will give us a more cohesive point of view. It'll just be a more comprehensive understanding of what happened. Because we've really just followed it from the Human point of view. You'll recognize some of the same scenes, you'll recognize some of the same instances, but it will be from the flip side. It'll be from the other side. So I'm not sure how people will like that, because I know there's a lot of people, devout loyalists of the Human camp. And that being said even my own sister, when she watches, she can be pretty harsh. I'm like, "But I'm your sister!" [her sister responds] "But you're playing a Cylon!"
So you never know who's going to side with which side. So maybe this will actually offer some more insight so that people -- who knows, they may be led to the other side and kind of side with the Cylons. Or maybe not, because some people just dig their heels in harder. But it won't just follow the dogfights and the wars between Raiders and Vipers and stuff like that. You'll go back into the Cylon Baseship and then back onto Caprica. So we're going to go pretty far back. There's going to be some new information there." -
Holy shit, it actually put me to sleep when I sat down to watch it yesterday. I agree with everyone who hated Ellen and the Chief's out-of-character behavior (considering the previous few episodes), the WTFness of Baltar getting the guns, the ridiculousness of Caprica walking through the ghetto (why?), how the hell did Boomer and Ellen find the fleet?, and the cheesyness of showing Caprica have baby problems as soon as Tigh and Ellen started banging.
With such little time left in the series, it sucks to have a weak episode like this one... -
Well after last week I think I owe you this. For me, this weeks episode was the first time in a long time that I was just bored during the show.
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You know, for being the spy who fed a virus into the Caprican defence system that lead to almost every single person on the planet being killed by nuclear bombs and the rest tortured in experiments than maybe even Dr Mengele might at least thought about it?
While we're at it, why has no-one murdered Baltar once his role in the same thing came to light (not to mention all the other things he did before than).
And Helo never getting a fragmentation grenade under his bed by the any one of the hundreds of surviving crew members from Pegasus for starters.
Meanwhile, in the real world ... some people were shot just for looking foreign after the World Trade Center and various other terror outrages ... -
I don't think anyone knows that she had a role in the attack. Baltar confessed to Roslin and she almost let him die but for some reason changed her mind. After that I don't think she has mentioned it since.
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At this point complaining about BSG is like complaining about the service at Circuit City. It's over and no one is listening.With that said I'm still looking forward to see how it's all wrapped up.
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Ha - not necessary but that's very manly of you.
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I call them like I see them. That last episode was up there with the boxing episode.Anyway, I've got my fingers crossed for the last four. It does make me nervous though.
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Here's my question
why wasnt HELO killed outright for stopping the virus that would have killed the cylons?
why are the Cylons allowed to be on the galactica, when the crew fought like crazy back in season one or two to keep the centurians off the ship
Why are the Cylons putting pictures of "killed in action cylons" on the human remembrance wall what- a year or two after the hhuman genocide- engineered by the Cylons?
Oh yeah the show is now liberal propaganda that we should all get along, and everyone is the same- blah blah blah- thanks for screwing up a great show lame PC writers and producers.
AIR LOCK THIS SHOW
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We still don't know whats going to happen. For all we know everything they've been doing with the Cylons could be their fatal mistake. I guess I'm the only one that see that. The FF might flee and in my opinion there is a good chance that Gaeta was correct, and he was their last hope. So to answer your question for SHAN Cylons are on Galactica because Adama and company have lost focus and it's about to cost them everythingThats why I love this show, yes last week was a boring episode but aside from that anything could happen.
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I dont have faith that the writers will do that- they stopped writing the show well after the mid point of season 3. Instead of what the crew would do, it will be more "feel good" lessons.
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Getting along in spite of our differences is exclusively a liberal trait? Gotcha.
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Clearly, the Cylons aren't completely sold on it, since the 6s and 8s were willing to commit to leaving the fleet. Adama seemed ok with it until the mutiny, now he doesn't know whats what about anything. Having his crew turn on him kinda broke his heart I think. Both sides of the Alliance are shaky on how it will go and it could fall apart easily. But when you're alone in the void with diminishing supplies and nowhere to go, you can't afford to not try.
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Well, the Face of the Enemy webisodes seemed to suggest that the 8's will betray the Colonials from their actions in that.
However, if they don't by the end of the show, then what was the point of all of that? That they just decided to murder a bunch of people for fun but made a new year's resolution not to? -
Why they call her Caprica Six?
"Why do they call you Caprica Six?"
"Oh really? That's the reason? How very interesting ... -
narc out Boomer as soon as he saw her, when he's just going to boohoo about it the entire next episode?
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Someone else would have recognised Boomer. All of the Cylons can tell each other apart.
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why didn't he let that happen?
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Le tme clarify- working with and embracing the machines that committed genocide against 99.999999999999 of the human race, and working to understand their differences is a liberal run amok to the extreme trait, which is what the writers are pandering to. I hope that clarifies the point- HA
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It never ceases to amaze me how so many people take the forgive and forget view towards the nuclear genocide in BSG when in real life (as has repeatedly been demonstrated will real life terror attacks all of which are on a much smaller scale than nuclear annihilation obviously) this would *never* *ever* happen. I don't see why so many people fail to get this.
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To add to the above post - realistically the Colonials would be gunning down the Cylons in record numbers. What we're seeing on screen is bunk.
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This is why the whole mutiny thing made no sense- who would "fight for the cylons?" . When Boomer was in chains and they put tha wire up her arm to diffuse the Cylon raiders that attacked the ship in season- 2? I think? She was under heavy guard and shackled with neck, leg and arm irons- and people wanted her dead. This made sense, she was kept around for military use, and people DIDNT WANT HER AROUND.
Once that element of the show went kaput, it all went downhill. The baltar Character should never have come back to humanity, and the whole trial made no sense at all that it even happened. The writers would have been much better served by keeping him with the ENEMIES OF HUMANITY since he betrayed mankind to mass murder, and now has to live and work with them.
Oh well, that makes sense, stupid me. -
compassion. It's showing the evolution of the cylon/human race. The Us Vs. Them way of thinking is changing. That being stated, I still don't see a pretty ending for this show. It's going to be messy.
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I think for dramatic/expediency's sake, the human/Cylon rapprochement is progressing a bit faster than it might in real life, yes. But surely you don't reject the notion that two sworn enemies can find common ground and forgive, right? I mean, for all we know they'd planned to do this a bit more gradually over time if they'd gotten a fifth season. And while I forget the exact circumstances surrounding the decision (that's what ten months between half-seasons will do), isn't there a halfway plausible reason for the humans to ally with the Cylon rebels?
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A few things they have done on the show recently lead me to believe they will end this in a very dark way. First, the last webisode made it pretty clear that the Cylons can not be trusted, plus it gave Gaeta a great motive for the mutiny. Second I think it's pretty bold move to get to Earth and have it totally ruined,then have Duella commit suicide, just awesome stuff. That kind of writting does not lead me to believe they care about being PC. Just watching as just about everyone gave up, thats not pretty and neat and tidy writting, thats gritty dark stuff. SHAN- I think you and I would be gunning down Cylons right and left and I think they've been showing that hatred is still alive and well within the fleet. The problem is the military and government have lost the edge or whatever they needed to be objective. I'm pretty sure thats what they're going for. Adama is getting tired, he's popping pills, drinking, he is clearly un-fit to be the leader,slowly they're letting the Cylons in and when the time is right they will strike.Now maybe you don't think thats realistic and I can buy that, but just take a look around at what is going on in this country. Do you think the leaders of this country would sell us out? Some out of incompetence? Some out of greed? It's just a question,would that kind of curruption happen when millions of people are being or have been murdered? Maybe.All that said it's just a TV show, so I know it's not the best writting ever but it's one of my favorite shows right now and I'm enjoying it.
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I don't think it's unrealistic to believe two sworn enemies would find common ground either. Really only a small group of the Cylons are joining up with the fleet. I think thats' why Adama is letting it happen. The real question is, is this the right move for all of humanity? trust this small group of Cylons? or just wipe them out?
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... A lot of people were shot just for looking foreign (I hate to use real life tragedies as analogies to a TV show by the way).
A lot of people still say even today that we should blow up Iraq (whose involvement was tangential at best), Afghanistan and even Iran (!). Given that the people in the fleet were thrust in claustrophobic steel coffins for years this was a great breeding ground for teaching people to hate the Cylons compounded as they pursued them for years trying to kill the few surviving Colonials.
I suspect after experiencing all of that, realistically people would overwhelmingly hate the Cylons with a passion. There's still people who hate the Japanese for Pearl Harbor for goodness sake.
So I don't think there would be a surplus of forgiveness and forgetting. -
I think my earliest headaches over the show was with this character. Originally I thought they did something clever with her thinking the secret sociology experiment was merely the cabin on Caprica but her not knowing it was continuing when she ran away.
No such luck unfortunately. We had to deal with such gems as her saying she couldn't be a sleeper agent like Boomer with hidden commands - well she wouldn't know because they were *hidden*. It was all downhill from there. Continually getting passes for lying to the Colonials didn't seem terribly consistent.
Helo ... don't get me started but things like how he knew Athena would somehow magically be able to resist extraction of her memory by the download process (she didn't by the way). Also repeatedly getting promotions for doing things that got other people arrested and even shot ... *sigh* ...
In short, I didn't really care for how the show has been all over the shop on crime and punishment. -
I can not disagree with you at all on the 911 thing, Pearl Harbor all that stuff. But you can't ignore that ultimately we do get along with the Japanesse sure maybe it's cause we beat them. Anyway it's really common for those vets to marry the females of the enemy, happens a lot, why? I don't know.Back to the show, this whole one god thing that Baltar is using seems weird but if some of the people on the ship are falling for it then it could create a simpathy for the Cylons, I think there is more to come with that. Many wars in our past were in "gods" name I don't like using real world things either to make a point about a TV show but the fact is these things happened and they become influences for stuff like this.
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I never liked that Athen or Helo stuff.
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Again- 2 years prior- CYLONS killed 99.999999999999999 of all of the human race. The 40 thousand survivors wouldnt find common ground with the few "friendly" cylons- who are machines that can be programmed to be sleeper agents.
Shiity PC writing, and the dualla suicide, earth is ruined writing items dont change the major mis-steps- All ong the watch tower, Tigh is a Cylon, retcons, inconsistencies etc. -
" J U M P ! "
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" J U M P ! "
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C Y L O N S H A R K S ! ! !
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when Six's baby died in utero did the huy in the infirmary seem to have brain activity return? Almost as if it were being downloaded? Is this how the cylons of earth were born....body conceived and created the good old fashioned way - but the mind given by the death of another.And in this case the baby died so the mind returned?
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Sorry I couldn't think of Anders name, but I hope you got my drift.Baby is fine Anders is brain dead.Baby dies Anders brain starts to come back.If this is how the 13th tribe procreated it would explain why there was no real interest in having resurrection hubs.
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Fine, fine, I get it. But how is this exclusively a liberal trait?
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Got my DVR set and I'll be back here on Monday my bet is most of you will be too. I just hope we don't get another episode like last week.Not sure what a Cylon shark is hopefully theres no sharks in next weeks episode.
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I thought I was done today.I'm curious as well, how is this "PC" writing? liberal or what ever you want to call it?
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It's typically liberal writers, entertainers and politicians that are on board with things like
"America was bad for nuking Hiroshima"
"Let's understand radical islamic terrorists"
"Lets think of why the mass murderer/rapist did what they did, aren't they a victim"
I dont recall many conservative activists, politicians, entertainers espousing this viewpoint, which I view as out of line, but are points of view typically from the liberal side of the political social spectrum. The Colonials trying to understand the MACHINES that exterminated 99.9999999999999999999% of mankind would be by all accounts a liberal reaction to the situation. A conservative response would be to airlock all the cylons and cylon apologists.
MTS- hope that explains it -
Thanks for clearing that up.I get what you're sayingI guess I see the colonist more like the Jews that fled germany and the Cylons that are helping them as kind of the sympathizers, I'm guessing most Jews did not trust them but after running for so long they ran out of options.Of course thats not a perfect analogy because Cylons are not humanIt is true most entertainers and writers are liberal so it must be very difficult for you to enjoy modern entertainment, Ive got to ask what do you like?
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I enjoy all kinds of things, I dont mind items written by and for liberal audiences if they make sense at least from a plot atandpoint, I may not agree with them, but I can suspend my sense of disbelief. Last movie watched "The secretary" from 2002, last favorite TV show- "The Shield".
The liberal writing on BSG doesnt work because it makes no sense to how people would actually respond in this situation.
And you are right, alot of modern entertainment isnt to my liking, that god we have 100 years of film to draw on... I think I'll watch "Dirty Harry" tonight! -
Well put, makes sense to me thanks for the response. I going to check in next week and see how this thing unfolds.
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http://tinyurl.com/5m2oet
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It's not that people haven't come to some kind of terms with it, it's just that it took some time.
So, in terms of a massive nuclear disaster that killed billions and a multi year pursuit that's still going on ... People coming to terms with now ... TOO SOON!!!!!! -
that's what the Cylons call her ever since the season 2 episode DOWNLOADED. she's actually Hero-Six.
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Is there any reference that Kobol is an actual planet?? Glactica the ship figures prominently in the show. "This has all happened before" - what if Kobol is a previous ship and the 13 tribes split off from it to populate......... yada yada yada. The show seems to be going this route again and Cylons and Humans are debating going their separate ways from Galactica. To break the cycle, they have to stick it out together, mate like rabbits and finally have a blended civilization of cylons/humans.
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This ep was a turd. And I'm now wondering, with 50 billion people dead after the cylon nuclear holocaust, what are the odds that all 5 of the final 5 cylons would survive AND rendezvous to fleet? Survivors only makeup .0001 % of the pre-attack population.
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