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Hercules Has Seen DOLLHOUSE, The First Television Series From BUFFY/ANGEL/FIREFLY Creator Joss Whedon In Five Years!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Tonight’s premiere of Joss Whedon’s “Dollhouse,” the tale of beautiful young people who repeatedly have memories extracted and implanted for fun and profit, turns out to be a big disappointment. It brims with giant ideas and cool Fox action but lacks the big laughs that lure many to Whedon’s work.
Also, I’m not sure its premise makes appreciably more sense than NBC’s similar, sillier “My Own Worst Enemy.” Were your young daughter abducted by kidnappers, would you hire seasoned negotiators or would you pay extra for a hot girl somehow programmed with the minds of seasoned negotiators? The Dollhouse organization, at least in the early going, doesn’t strike me as the greatest economic model.
(There’s more real-world dough, I’d imagine, in the other role Echo/Dushku plays tonight, that of somebody’s perfect, gorgeous, willing date.)
The kidnapping plot at the center of tonight’s episode, nowhere near as compelling as the one in “Ransom” or NBC’s “Kidnapped” pilot, too often feels like generic cop-show fodder.
The good news is episode two, which – among many other things – delves into a mystery tied to the Amy Acker character’s scars, turns out to be a big improvement.
Give the series points for being one of the stranger things on TV. Lead actress Eliza Dushku’s character, Echo, isn’t remotely the main character; Dushku spends most of her screen time playing different guest star roles each week. This makes for a great actressy showcase – but TV anthologies haven’t been popular for a while now, and it’s easier to build a rooting interest in a character who doesn't disappear for good after 30 minutes. The closest thing the series has to a regular main character is the handsome but troubled FBI agent (Tahmoh Penikett, also playing “Galactica” hero Karl Agathon on Friday nights) determined to prove the Dollhouse exists.
It took me more than a season to warm up to Whedon’s “Buffy The Vampire Slayer”; it took the sneery vampire Spike’s season-two introduction to convince me “Buffy” was actually the Best Show Ever. One of the things “Buffy,” “Angel” and “Firefly” have in common is each got considerably more interesting as it went along.
More reasons to stick around: Fox execs apparently took a heavy hand in “helping” Whedon fine-tune this series’ first episode (hopefully “Dollhouse’s” orginal, never-to-be-aired pilot will find its way onto a DVD or Blu-ray disc at some point), and future episodes are scripted by world-class TV writers like Jane Espenson (“Buffy,” “Battlestar Galactica”) and Tim Minear (“Angel,” “Wonderfalls”).
Entertainment Weekly gives it an “B-minus” and says:
… Dushku's acting is dexterous and beguiling. Given the artfully vague hints of an intriguingly desperate past for Echo, as well as Whedon's track record, we ought to cut the show some slack. Let's see if Whedon can bring this doll to greater life. …
USA Today gives it two and a half stars (out of four) and says:
… an empty-vessel premise that probably couldn't support a series even were it more adroitly cast … The result is a show that his most devoted fans will debate and embrace, and a mass audience just won't get. … We love you, Joss, but please, build something else.
Time Magazine says:
… If it weren't for Whedon's pedigree, I'm not sure I'd be dying to see a second episode. …
The New York Times says:
… has an amusing premise, but the universe it inhabits in the early episodes is thin and bland. The sinister corporation behind the Dollhouse is ill-defined, and the show’s main characters are one-dimensional, including the real-life dolls. …
The Los Angeles Times says:
… beyond disappointing. Overcrowded with plotlines, high-tech gimmicks and ambition yet empty of emotional connection and purpose, "Dollhouse" tries so hard to be so many things it winds up being nothing much at all. …
The Chicago Tribune says:
… is "Dollhouse" worth watching? Though Whedon fans no doubt want the answer to be a slam-dunk "yes," I can only, at this point, supply a more tentative "Yes, but …" …
The Washington Post says:
… a pretentious and risible jumble … Slices of mumbo don't come much more jumbo than this … it's enough to make one long for the days when TV dramas were criticized for being too pat, too predictable, too much like one another. Whedon, who directed the pilot, certainly dressed it up stylishly, but I'll take simple coherence over fancy-pants trappings any day. …
The San Francisco Chronicle says:
… a major disappointment. … judging from two additional episodes - one a step forward, the other a step back to the underwhelming quality of the pilot - it could be that Whedon has invested too much hope in his muse, Eliza Dushku, the star of "Dollhouse." It could also be that the premise is too flawed for anyone to elevate.
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette says:
… isn't awful, but neither is it remarkably good. It's a passable hour of entertainment that shows potential to improve but flails and confuses (and occasionally bores) from the start. …
The Salt Lake Tribune says:
… The kidnapping story is standard criminal fare, and we are given little to no information about Echo's background, which might give viewers a reason to latch on to her character. … I'll watch a few more episodes, but I'm afraid it won't be any more watchable than one of "Star Trek's" worst episodes ever.
The Newark Star Ledger says:
… The idea seems too complicated by half … it looks like a slate that keeps getting half-wiped as Whedon struggles to decide what to draw. …
The Boston Globe says:
… doesn't stand up to the broad interpretations it invites. … Ultimately, you'll want to think about "Dollhouse" more than you'll want to think about watching "Dollhouse." …
Variety says:
Joss Whedon's cult following is no secret, but he seems assured of attracting the faithful and little else with "Dollhouse" -- a series that exhibits a kitchen-sink mentality, throwing in a half-dozen assorted plot threads that intertwine to create confusion. … attempting to unravel this convoluted package suggests that by the time "Dollhouse" finds itself, there won't be anybody but hard-core Whedon worshippers left to play with. …
The Hollywood Reporter says:
… it's easy to see the high aspiration and grand potential of the series but far more difficult to develop any sort of attachment to either the conceit or its enchanting young star and co-producer, Eliza Dushku. … Although Whedon infuses "Dollhouse" with an impressively detailed story line and social structure as well as nifty production values, the show lacks something for viewers to grab onto. Having a personality-shifting protagonist makes for a rooting challenge and, at its core, a disappointingly soulless exercise. On the other hand, Whedon knows how to build a story like few others, and Dushku is an uncommonly talented performer who breathes vibrant life into the ever-evolving blank canvas scheme. So this could definitely turn into something special over time, if the Friday night ratings can justify the patience.
Lena Headey loves this Grindhouse promo:
9 p.m. Friday. Fox.
"I love love love DR. HORRIBLE’S SING-ALONG BLOG as much or more than just about anything I’ve seen this year." -- Harry Knowles
Season Eight: Volume Four!!
"I love love love DR. HORRIBLE’S SING-ALONG BLOG as much or more than just about anything I’ve seen this year." -- Harry Knowles
Season Eight: Volume Four!!
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she revealed that she started having sex at 17 and when she was 14 she met Mickey Rourke in a beauty salon.
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she also said she hasn't spoken to Sarah Michelle Gellar in years. She was wearing a thong during the interview. She doesn't think Joss is sexually attracted to her. She also revealed that once, Collin Farrell was allowed access to her hotel room by the hotel staff and he showed up to her room shirtless and got into her bed. She also said she would like to "kiss & cuddle" with George Clooney but she won't fuck him cause she's not a whore (a point she kept mentioning alot).
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Not even remotely near.
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srsly.
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unless the sci-fi channel picks it up.
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I saw her on Regis & Kelly and then on Conan, and man the way she described the show makes me not want to watch it at all.
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A Whedon show back on tv and he used this vehicle for his comeback. I see this being killed in 4 or 5 weeks tops. Also TSCC , which I really like , will also be cancelled after this season. Too expensive and ratings challanged for Fox to justify in that timeslot. I mean Ghost Whisperer does an 11 share every Friday night , there is no reason why the right Fox show can't be a steady 8 or 9 in that slot. These shows will be lucky to pull a 4 or 5 rating.
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I like Dushku , she is pretty hot though not smoking hot. And she was good in Buffy.
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What a surprise. Lucky for him you can fail upwards in Hollywood when your daddy was a big screenwriter.
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Herc, Joss stated that the original pilot is airing second, yet you state that it's not airing. Where's your info from?
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this season has been very good so far.
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Sound awful lol, oh and fuck what Herc has to say he never seems to think Whedon can do wrong.This show has had BOMB written all over it and hell if people will stick around long enough for the episodes Whedon finally handed over to other more capable folk to do.
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I really don't know what else to say. The Matrix "download a skill" thing is really tired at this point. It just really comes off as all of the overplayed ideas in science fiction. A little bit of "The Island", a little bit of the "The Stepford Wives", a little bit of "The Matrix", a little bit of "Dark Angel", etc etc etc.
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So clearly he's lost some of the Joss-Whedon-Can-Do-No-Wrong buzz he's been frequently accused of having.
Either that, or the show sucks so bad that even Herc can't bring himself to give it "5 STARS!!!!!!" -
Feb 13, 2009 5:17:07 AM CST
As a Whedon fan I'll probably watch this until the bitter end
by spifftacular squirrel girl
The reviews and Herc's disappointment doesn't bode well though.
On the cup half full portion of things, True Blood didn't exactly have a stellar first episode either but did get much better once it was a few episodes in. I'm crossing my fingers hoping that this may be the case too. -
Essentially what happened was that Fox asked for reshoots and as things progressed, Joss put the show on two week production hiatus to review and rewrite the scripts. By the time it was all over, the original pilot made no sense in the context of the later scripts so Joss dumped it. Yay Fox.
And as for all the people calling it cancelled early, Fox already guaranteed Joss a full run of the initial 12 episodes, essentially modifying their criteria for how to judge the show's success. -
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/38884
^ The article confirming the dropping of the pilot altogether
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http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39697
^ Candid interview with Joss Whedon on the show, with a link to it's source.
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But Lost, VM and Twin Peaks are also damn considerable...
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prepared for when Fox cans this dud after a handful of showings? Might as well let the insufferable whining start now.
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i want more! stop releasing dvd packs! Make some more...somehow! -
I could never understand Buffy.
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how is "Fox execs apparently used a heavy hand in “helping” Whedon fine-tune this series’ premise and first episode" a reason to stick around? sounds more like a reason to run away.
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But Joss seems to feel good about how the show ended up after making the fixes around all the Fox asshattery. Then again, the fact that he decided Fox was the place to root his new show despite past experience does make him the eternal optimist.
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An awesome interview with Whedon about this show. He delved into the underlying aspects of the show, what he felt were they issues they were looking to explore, and why he wanted to make the show in the first place. If you're unsure about watching this show, listen to that interview. I'm a Whedon comic fan, but not a television Whedon fan. However, after hearing him talk about the show, I'm going to give it a chance. Unlike most people, Eliza Dushku annoys me. I don't think she's particularly talented, and will probably be the weakest link of the show -- which sucks because she's the star. Anyway, I'm gonna give this a shot based solely on what Whedon has said about it.
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Firefly was light years better than Buffy, and season two would bring in a ton more viewers than this turd... or Sarah Connor... or Fringe... etc etc.
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Because the brilliantly talented and sadistic bastard ..... (lord this needs spoiler tags- just in case).....
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killed Wash! That's why! And considering the way The Operative character was vaguely set up as a future reoccurring player, I don't think Fox'll pony up the cash for Chewetel Ejiofor (who's character was the only consolation prize/addition in a WORLD WITHOUT WASH!). Now that that's out of my system, I'd love to see more more Firefly, if only with a Serenity sequel down the line. -
I once watched the Dushku-dr4essing-up-in-bikinis montage from THE NEW GUY on repeat for three hours. Damn near tore the cock off...
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Buffy ran 2 seasons too long & Angel got royally shafted by crap storylines (Jasmine?) and an ever more podgy vampire with a skinny stunt double.
And everyone knows West Wing is the best show ever. -
all the reviews i read of the premiere gave out a disappointing vibe, but this confirms that it at least gets better.
i suppose artistically (if not commercially), it's better to have the weakest ep as the first and get better, rather than vice versa (c.f. Bionic Woman, which started out okay and then tanked big time).
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Oh geez. It's a friggin' TV show. When did we stop having fun? What a grumpy review.
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Firefly season two would have a Wash and Book sized hole in it. The backstory for Sheperd Book would have been a great running storyline, and that would be sorely missed. But let's face it, "Castle" has about as much chance of surviving the season as "Drive" did, and Summer could easily be written out of "The Sarah Connor Cronicles", and none of the other cast members seem like they are too busy to reprise their roles, especially since they all seem to have loved the show and their characters so much. It has a built in audience, and would surely do better than most of the shows on FOX right now.
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Not when you get THE PRISONER and TWIN PEAKS anywhere near the orbit.
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It's obvious, if herc's info on the second ep is right, why they told Joss to redo the pilot. Look at that promo: You are pushing Echo/Eliza as your STAR. Then the whole first episode is about some sub-par looking chick like Amy Acker. WTF? The audiences (not us Whedon-ites) would have whiplash from shaking their heads in confusion. I like herc's idea of the show being from Helo's perspective (someone sent to investigate the Dollhouse but thinks it's a waste of time until he runs into Echo and falls in love only to find out that whoever she is for a particular mission is wiped each time. He determines to find her in order to save her, but she doesn't want to be saved etc.) but I guess it's too late for that. Despite the reviews, give it a chance. Who knows, we might just get it unlike everyone else.
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Joss should give them a call. Firefly season two.
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Feb 13, 2009 7:22:25 AM CST
Whedon's brilliance shows over the course of multiple years
by moviemaniac-7
Not always as easy to build a premise on. I'd love to see Firefly evolve into three or four seasons, but that won't happen... Let's see what this one brings...
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Considering the twisted similarities between The Operative's slavish devotion to his calling and religious faith of the worst order, I wonder if he could have been meant as a bit of a look into the kind of past Book might have had (considering he seemed to have a disturbing insight into The Alliance's method of operation and a world of reluctance to ever talk about how, why or anything else in between).
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If you read between the lines, I'm pretty sure he's SPOILER ..... ..... ,,,,, ,,,,, ,,,,, not supposed to be living anymore. Still, it's subtle enough that you could just write him back in. I agree that continuing Firefly would be SO much more successful now.
I enjoyed Serenity but... it was more like Fan service than a standalone movie to bring people in. It almost needed a 10-15 minute action packed prologue to forcefully introduce new audiences to the world. I'm not normally a fan of that stuff, either.
I'll give dollhouse a shot. Not expecting too much. I keep giving Fringe a shot, though, so I'm easy. lol. -
When Whedon took a page from "High Noon" and concocted his first big showdown. Showdowns were what Buffy was ultimately all about.
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Expectations will be lowered accordingly. Whedon himself says the series doesn't really get started until after the sixth episode. I'm blaming Fox, not just because it's easy to do, but also because it's probably true.
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I like the effort in this review to imply this might somehow be Fox's fault. Sorry, Fox may be to blame for many things but if anything, they've taken a chance on Whedon and what really looks like a badly thought out concept to begin with.
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How awful that sounds, quick give me something that is the exact same as everything else before I die from exposure to new ideas.
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the old Sunday night "NBC Mystery Movie"? It was what I believe the folks in the TV business called a "Wheel". They rotated through a series of two hour made for TV movies of :"McCloud", "Columbo", "McMillan and Wife" and maybe some other ones.
I wish some network would do a SciFi "Wheel". Do made for TV movies of "Firefly", "Babylon 5", "Space: Above and Beyond" and maybe some new concepts and see what sticks. If they were not on every week they might be more of an event.
I wish Skiffy would replace their Saturday night low budget schlock fest with this concept. Put a little more money into these and they could sell the DVDs afterword. Remember Bonnie Hammer SciFi is fucking "Evergreen".
When I was a kid and the economy sucked in the early Seventies Saturday was actually the best night of TV. You could tune in CBS at 8 p.m. and watch strait through to 11. "All in the Family" at 8:00, "MASH" at 8:30, "Mary Tyler Moore" at 9:00, "Bob Newhart" at 9:30 , "Carrol Burnett" at 10:00
Fuck I'm old. -
I am a Joss Whedon fan and I'm gonna give the show a chance. If it sucks, I'll admit it. But with the exception of a handful of GREAT pilots, many shows start out small and build to greatness. So I'm not gonna write this off because of the pilot. I am not encouraged by Fox execs involvement, admittedly. As far as why he chose Fox for this show, were there really many other options? Look at the style of shows on NBC. Definitely not a network that would jump at Whedon-style shows. Every show on CBS is a carbon copy of CSI: dark and shadowy (turn a fucking light on for crying out loud), dark and ominous music, overacting (David Caruso 101), the exact same effects over and over again, etc. Maybe ABC but with their other shows they would not give Whedon the money/production value that the other shows on the network get. His shows are not gonna rock the cussing and nudity that would be required for HBO/Showtime. He maybe could have found a home on SCI-FI or USA, but we'll never know. For major networks, I think Fox was all he had. But remember, Whedon is not god, though I enjoy his work, but how many times have you disagreed with ratings/reviews? Plus, if it sucks early, there is a better chance of Fox leaving it on and it gradually getting awesome. If we all love it early, Fox will cancel it after this 12-ep run just to piss us off. So let's just wait and see.
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It's about time reviewers and the general television audience be forced to accept that great television storytelling no longer comes on an episode by episode basis - story arcs are for more interesting and intelligent than weekly one-offs. Shows that clearly depend on longer-term arcs should either be pre-approved for multiple season runs, or, if the company doesn't want that kind of show, turned down flat. No more of this bullshit "Here's a few episodes, let's see how it goes," which basically hamstrings any long-term storytelling and forces complex shows into an artificial "get 'em in the seats each week" mentality.
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Feb 13, 2009 9:24:40 AM CST
Knowing Fox, It May Cancel Dollhouse Before Next Week
by frakthetoasters
Before we get to see the adorable Amy Acker's character's plot development.
and replace it with a reality TV series about the guys from The Hills and The City and titling it appropriately: "DOUCHEBAGS". -
Buffy wasn't anything to write home about in its first season. I wasn't wowed by Angel at first either. Come to think of it, it also took me some time to get into Firefly. But I ended up loving all of the shows in the end. I'm just a bit worried that by the time this show finds its groove, it'll be too late.
At least the reviews said that Dushku did a good job. I thought that she'd the be weakest link of the show. As for the hotness of Dusku vs. Acker, I'd say that Dushku obviously has the better body, but Acker has a prettier face. So I don't care if they focus too much on Acker in the first ep. -
That idea, at least, has potential.
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Feb 13, 2009 9:59:34 AM CST
Dont know anything about Whedon, Buffy, Firefly, or whatever the
by mrhazard
But Dushku looked "kidnap and chain her in the basement" good last night on Conan...
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All modern TV since Buffy, borrows from Buffy
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With Summer and Eliza kissing. Just sayin'
OK, so I added the kissing part... -
or would fanboys have a conniption if they cast a Canadian as Cap?
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I hated the first season of BUFFY. If I hadn't scooped up several seasons' worth of DVDs, I am not sure I would have bothered with subsequent seasons. However, I would have missed out on the show finally coming together and going into overdrive.
My question: Now that Whedon has years of experience in TV, why can't he craft a series that is good right out of the box? I can understand the idea of plot lines developing and evolving over time, but not quality and fresh ideas, and so far reviewers seem to be pointing out that DOLLHOUSE recycles stale ideas. That is not the criticism I was hoping to hear, and it does not bode well.
If Whedon wants a huge hit and a second chance with an idea that has sounded like a dud from the outset, have the reveal at the end of the season be that Echo is actually a brainwashed Faith the Vampire Slayer, then go from there. -
The word is they redid the pilot and made 3 episodes, then they shut down and brought in Jane and the others and the series sort of "reboots" with episode 4 and is supposed to be much better than the first 3 episodes.
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Feb 13, 2009 10:50:58 AM CST
"why can't he craft a series that is good right out of the box?"
by newc0253
until we see his original pilot for Dollhouse, we don't know that he didn't.
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At least Joss will put some pizzazz into what may turn out to be a flop.
As for what Dushku said on the Howard Stern show, all guests are required to talk dirty: "Oh, yes, Howard, anal anal anal."
Most actresses are frigid virgins who have to strike a bimbo pose because they work in Hollyweird.
If I am wrong, then let Eliza prove it by submitting to my inspection. Come to me, Dushku, come.
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But honestly, I'm excited. Whedon has his problems, but in the end, I enjoy the hell out of him, and Buffy and Angel definitely changed my expectations of what television is capable of. God was Angel, good! Just looking at Wesley's development as a character is reason alone to watch it. So here I am, getting excited again, because people like Minear are writing for this. I just hope I don't get burned again and this is cancelled by 13 episodes.
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I'll probably wait until i see strong reviews for a specific episode and then see if I like it.
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"All modern TV since Buffy, borrows from Buffy". Actually, all modern TV borrows from Twin Peaks, The X-Files, The Prisonner and The Sopranos. Period. You add The Wire, Six Feet Under, The Shield, The Office (UK, not US crap), Oz, Carnivale, NYPD Blue and you understand there's no way Buffy could even be in a top 10. Come on fanboys, get a grip. Nobody with a brain cares about Joss freakin' Whedon.
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Not so much for Joss, although I will be hoping he pulls the quality up as the season develops. I'm just smitten with Dusku and Acker, both. Not just the way they look ( both smoking to my eyes )but also who they are. I would greatly appreciate it if the show was good, however.
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I loved Buffy (not too fussed with Angel) and discarded Firefly after watching the pilot...but then I had to go to Serenity for a first date and ended up loving the flick, then going back and falling in love with the show (a love which lasted a lot longer than that relationship). I dont want the same thing to happen twice, so Ill stick out Dollhouse for at least 7 eps to see which way its going to go....
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Before you even say it, yes, I'm a die-hard, brainwashed Whedonite. I agree that Buffy was the best show ever, and I WILL be tuning in to Dollhouse. I can't wait! I guess I have no brain. I heart Joss. Buffy was great, Angel was great, Firefly was great, and Dr. Horrible was great. I'm looking forward to this!
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Buffy! Buffy! Buffy! Pathetic waterheads.
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is Herc talking about? i've watched all of angel, and a handful of buffy and firefly episodes, and the thing that I probably hated the most about all of those shows is it's attempt at humor. all of those corny one-liners i'm sure were tongue-in-cheek to an extent, but so fucking tedious to sit through.
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Unlike Xfiles, the plotlines for Buffy actually went somewhere. The Wire? Shit. I'll give you props for mentioning The Shield, it was indeed outstanding. However, take a look at Shawn Ryan's credits. Where did he start off? Oh yes, on Angel, another Joss Whedon show. As for The Sopranos, what a piece of shit. I couldn't get through the first season. I did dig Six Feet Under, but mainly because of Michael C. Hall, who is great on Dexter. Twin Peaks was great- but telling an epic coherent story? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! Buffy Rules! People who hate it-- watch the first two seasons and then disagree with me.
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And also, The Wire is as exciting as watching C-Span. And I also love Damages, Mad Men, and Breaking Bad. FUCK The Wire, FUCK Sopranos.
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and in a few years, Sci-Fi Channel runs a marathon of the entire series on some random Saturday afternoon.
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and in a few years, Sci-Fi Channel runs a marathon of the entire series on some random Saturday afternoon.
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and in a few years, Sci-Fi Channel runs a marathon of the entire series on some random Saturday afternoon.
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and in a few years, Sci-Fi Channel runs a marathon of the entire series on some random Saturday afternoon.
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seriously, do they want everything to be pretentious?
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What the hell?
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She just keeps going back to the same shithead (Fox) who promises he'll change, that things will be different this time, but the end result is always the same: canceled in six episodes.
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I was kind of meh on the show and Whedon's constant snarky type of humor until Angel turned evil after sleeping with Buffy. That was great.
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Since I couldn't watch her, there was no reason not to turn it off.
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to have certain girls' memories extracted... no need to implant them, just erase them
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That's when the show started to get good.
The final season was complete bullshit, though.
I think Buffy thrived because it was on the WB, who wouldn't cancel it for any reason, so they started to get experimental with episodes. Buffy was great...
"one of the best"? I don't know.
Not sure that "one of my favorites" translates to "one of the best." -
Think about just last fall, when Fringe started out slow and plodding, but has continuously built to a really really interesting series.
Sometimes a slow start is GOOD... at least artistically. However, ratings don't always allow that luxury. At least, my understanding is that 13 episodes are contractually assured. -
I didn't mean to type "really" twice; I'm a grown man and heterosexual, I wouldn't ever actually say that.
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The Wire boring? like watching cspan? sopranos sucks? I've typed it before, but i've never actually meant it until now: I laughed out loud. Both the Wire and Sopranos are so good you almost can't call them tv... wire and sopranos are so smart they're more like an award winning novels. There is only one reason people would not like these shows: they're too stupid. Seriously, they're not by any means easy to follow... they are very complicated... if your mind wanders for a couple minutes, you get extremely confused. People who have attention spans and have read a fair amount of books in their lives, see the greatness that is The Wire and Sopranos. Intelligent shows for intelligent people.
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Feb 13, 2009 1:46:39 PM CST
Eliza Dushku must convince me to watch Dollhouse in my bed!
by leafar the lost
Why didn't Josh Whedon do a "Faith" series with Eliza? I thought that was what he was going to do, until I saw her in that shitty "Tru Calling" show or whatever the fuck it was called. Her clock is ticking, and soon Eliza will age out of her hotness. This show isn't going to help her financial situation. I see Cinemax After Dark in her future...
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That show was on its game from the very beginning and throughout its brief lifespan.
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The first two seasons may have been good, but the rest was pretty sucky compare to most of the shows people watch on these talkbacks. Deadwood and Rome (and even Carnivale) spanked the shit out of the Sopranos. I guess I can't argue about the Wire though. The Wire and Brotherhood are the only two shows on TV that have ever remotely portrayed politics in a realistic fashion. They are the anti-24 in that respect.
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When someone got rid of the stupid monster of the week format. Angel was saved because Glenn Quinn drugged out and Alexis Denisof came in. I don't know who's going to save Whedon's ass this time.
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Good to see that you brought this one in. My criticisms of this show are now more than a bit legendary, on this, and other forums...but all with good reason...to help place this show on a better course. However, I am reading critiques that reveal that Echo is still cast as a character with a child like personality between missions...something that I warned about in advance, and that other critics have seized upon as a weakness of the show, and the character(s), that being the Actives. Echo needs to be given a faux personal life between missions...as with the other Actives, in order to better help the audience relate to these characters and give them a base personality that they, the audience, can relate to, and sympathize with, from minute to minute, and week to week; without it, you run the risk of alienating audiences by failing to give them a jumping-in point...that they can enter the show with, and live vicariously through the characters on the screen. I am well aware of the fact that you, and your subordinates regularly read these forums, thus I give this as a constructive criticism to help the show. Joss, as you said elsewhere, "Even the dumbest guy in the room can have the most brilliant idea, so you should listen to them because you never know where it is going to come from", that being the best idea...or something to that effect? Well, maybe I'm the dumbest guy in the room, but my theories are solid on what is needed to enhance the series. The shows intended demo cannot relate to a 5 year old personality, male or female...there is just no interest there, and especially one that is largely vacant. It can only lead to long moments of wasted opportunity onscreen, moments that could be better used for more adult dramatic beats in Echo's life. That said, I am pleased that you have chosen to focus on the more seamy aspects and implications of the Dollhouse and the dark side of human sexuality, therein...that is a brave move. I just wish the show had been written and produce for Showtime or HBO so that you could have full leeway to examine these issues without facing the censorship battles that you are presently going through. Fox was right to demand a faster more action packed show, it can only help attract an audience, but in terms of addressing the twisted sexual nature of human beings...which often appear in all of us, Fox' reluctance to allow you to go there, is wrong. To that end, I hope you both find balance, as each has a valid point.Good luck with the show, and try to remember, the struggle that you just went through...to nurse the program, I think in part...sparked by my early comments on the show, when every mention of the series, by the press...was rosie, has only served to make it better, as it should be. Congratualations, I hope.I will be watching the new pilot tonight...and the 2nd episode next week, and I will be sure to weigh in with my honest opinion. If it is weak, I'll say it, unlike the "Yes Men" at Whedonesque.com, and it is great, or somewhere in-between, I will certainly give an unbiased, and true opinion. I am a student of yours, and only wish you good luck in your endeavors as you have taught me much about writing. I wish I could say that you're the best, but that title goes to Rod Serling, but I can arguably say that you are second best...and that is a pretty good place to be!!!-Signed, MM aka...Blue Gloves
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Helo's a traitor, he should have been lined up with Zarek and Gaita last week.
As for Dollhouse, I'll still give it a look. And I rather liked My Own Worst Enemy... -
Congrats, Whedon, on getting a Friday night show. It must be awesome. Looks like all the excuses are in place for when this thing fails (notice I said "when" and not "if"). Sorry for the venom, but I have just never understood the hype. You took a dumb movie and made a mildly entertaining TV show out of it, even a less-than mildly entertaining spin-off. You made another sci-fi show that nobody watched. You have a cult following, indeed, but cult followings don't keep people on TV for very long. Ratings do. Most readers of this site break out the kneepads for you, and some want to bludgeon you (notice how there's so little moderation or "voice of reason" on forums?). I'm not sure if my problem is with Whedon...he's not the one saying how great he is...but I'm just tired of him being crowned the best writer in Hollywood when his pedigree is greatly lacking.
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I hope Elliot Spitzer is tuning in.
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Good to see that you brought this one in. My criticisms of this show are now more than a bit legendary, on this, and other forums...but all with good reason...to help place this show on a better course. However, I am reading critiques that reveal that Echo is still cast as a character with a child like personality between missions...something that I warned about in advance, and that other critics have seized upon as a weakness of the show, and the central character(s), that being the Actives. Echo needs to be given a faux (adult) personal life between missions...as with the other Actives, in order to better help the audience relate to these characters and give them base personalities that they, the audience, can relate to, and sympathize with, from minute to minute, and week to week; without it, you run the risk of alienating audiences by failing to give them a jumping-in point...that they can enter the show with, and live vicariously through the characters on the screen. That must be found through a adult persona for Echo, that appears between missions, one with a seemingly, and fully active personal life--it is simply a must.
I am well aware of the fact that you, and your subordinates regularly read these forums, thus I give this as a constructive criticism to help the show. Joss, as you said elsewhere, "Even the dumbest guy in the room can have the most brilliant idea, so you should listen to them, because you never know where it is going to come from", that being the best idea...or something to that effect? Well, maybe I'm the dumbest guy in the room, but my theories are solid on what is needed to enhance the series. The shows intended demo cannot relate to a 5 year old personality, male or female...there is just no interest there, and especially one that is largely vacant. It can only lead to long moments of wasted opportunity onscreen, moments that could be better used for more adult dramatic beats in Echo's life.
That said, I am pleased that you have chosen to focus on the more seamy aspects and implications of the Dollhouse and the dark side of human sexuality, therein...that is a brave move. I just wish the show had been written and produce for Showtime or HBO so that you could have full leeway to examine these issues without facing the censorship battles that you are presently going through. Fox was right to demand a faster more action packed show, it can only help attract an audience, but in terms of addressing the twisted sexual nature of human beings...which often appear in all of us, Fox' reluctance to allow you to go there, is wrong. To that end, I hope you both find balance, as each has a valid point.
Good luck with the show, and try to remember, the struggle that you just went through...to nurse the program, I think in part...sparked by my early comments on the show, when every mention of the series, by the press...was rosie, has only served to make it better, as it should be. Congratualations, I hope.
I will be watching the new pilot tonight...and the 2nd episode next week, and I will be sure to weigh in with my honest opinion. If it is weak, I'll say it, unlike the "Yes Men" at Whedonesque.com, and if it is great, or somewhere in-between, I will certainly give an unbiased, and true opinion. I am a student of yours, and only wish you good luck in your endeavors as you have taught me much about writing. I wish I could say that you're the best, but that title goes to Rod Serling, but I can arguably say that you are second best...and that is a pretty good place to be!!!
-Signed, MM aka...Blue GlovesPS: While blasting you on your efforts, including your scripting problems, I...as a writer, ran into my own problems, an instant karma that taught me to better understand what you were going through. Apologies...for being so blunt sometimes, difficulties can happen to anybody. I certainly got my ass kicked, while you where getting your ass kicked too--and I deserved it, perhaps we both did (?)...but I am better off for it, and as I said, I hope the same is true for you, and Dollhouse. May it be a hit for you, your biggest yet!!! -
jesus media messiah--you are truly the most delusional person on the talkbacks. You act like you actually have an impact on shit, and bore us to death with your 'letters.' Your opinion doesn't mean shit, and you are 'legendary' because of how you make obvious statments and act like you 'called' shit. You are a joke... you actually think your opinion means something. it does not. man you never cease to amaze me.
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where did you go to school for your writing degree? is there anything you have written i could read. I will honestly tell you that i would be very interested in reading something of yours (provided its not extremely long) and even though i have a bit of bias in my poor opinion of you, I never lie or mess around when it comes to my opinions on someone's writing... i have a creative writing degree and was in the uncomfortable position of telling some of my friends in class that their writing needs alot of work... i'd never be mean, but i couldn't lie. then there were some people that i hated as people, but couldn't deny their talent in writing. Pick your most impressive thing you've wrote and let me read it.
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It seemingly started out strong, and seemed to have something that it wanted to say of importance to society, and then it went nowhere. The last 3 or 4 seasons were horrible!!! The show has no message, or point of view to impart, other than to glamorize hatred, vulgar criminal actions, and misogyny. Technically, it was expertly produced, written, directed, and edited...but it is of no more social or intellectual value, than if they produced a show about a group of rapists, or child molesters who are made to look like heroes. And that is what the Sopranos was all about, making sick individuals and their actions look cool. It is as bizarre as HBO's take on life with Sex In The City. If those women slept around that much, they'd all have AIDS/HIV...etc., or be carriers for those diseases...and the same with the characters of the Sopranos. The problem with these shows is that they don't inform the public, no...they actively serve to misinform the public as a part of presenting wish fulfillment fantasy. Unfortunately, people act on that misinformation in real life, thinking that is the way most people live, or many, and that they can take the same kind of risks too, or even that they are expected to or they are missing something or are unfulfilled in their own personal lives. To that degree, these shows are irresponsible, and dangerous.In the end, the Sopranos is as vile as a serial killer movie like Friday The 13, because it ultimately serves to add nothing positive to the current social order, on the contrary, it only serves to give those who are criminally minded or insane...even more twisted ideas on how to make our society that much worse than it already is. If I have written the Sopranos...I would have written Tony's exit from the standpoint of him walking away from the business and trying to start a new life after coming to the conclusion that the mob life is no life at all. That would have sent a message of moral clarity, making the whole of the series, even in its darker areas, worth telling. Sadly, they missed that opportunity...and Tony and family remain dumb lowlifes...as the screen fades to black, or dead lowlifes, which ever the case maybe...having learned nothing (positive)...just like the audience of the Sopranos, also...having learned nothing (positive).
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What is the name of the song in the second promo????
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He has never compromised his (brilliant) ideas and often coats them in a thick, genre package. I don't know if he'll ever be embraced by the mass commercial audiences and that's fine by me. Watching Buffy was pretty much like going to film school. The ideas and themes he presents are some of the most intelligent and responsible I've seen on television (and film, for that matter). Buffy is the best television show ever in my opinion and if you've only watched a handful of episodes you really have no right to make any judgement on it. Buffy's a long, brilliant book and if you've only "read" a chapter of it ya ain't gonna get it.
By the way, I'll say it now, JJ Abrams is a diluted version of Joss Whedon. Talented for certain, but diluted for the masses. -
Feb 13, 2009 3:53:09 PM CST
I'd rather see Whedon get $150 mill and make another Firefly mov
by s-mart shopper
'cause that would be tits!
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So Sopranos is about sick individuals? yeah.
So then, I assume the same would be said for Michael Corleone, and all three godfather's as well?
Also, Sopranos was never about morals. There are COUNTLESS shows that have no morals, and many are very good.
You have a very odd sense of morality... i was pointed in the direction of one talkback where you spoke of the evils of wine, and the evils of other stuff. You're twisted.
Still waiting for you to let me read some of your non talkback writing. I am dead serious, if it is good, i will tell you as much. But i'll prepare you: i'll say its good if it really is, or i'll say its decent if thats what it really is... it takes alot for me to call an ametuer's writing outright worthless... but no matter what i say about your right, you are a douche, and nothign will change that until you prove otherwise. -
Nope...I am an outside of the box thinker. Although I like schooling situations to some degree, I also like non formal schooling. The Beatles are self taught musicians, at least, Lennon and McCartney...and neither read music...still, they are the greatest writers I have ever heard...and that would include besting the best of classical musicians, Mozart included. As for creative writing, those guys were/are poets, with no formal classes or training, so much for creative writing degrees??? I for one, have taken writing classes, journalism, etc., but I learn best by doing, not taking instruction so much, but to observe others. Unlike most, who parrot, I can innovate on what I learn (observe). You show me a cool story, I'll show you how to make it better. That is the reason why so many people in Hollywood steal from others, chapter and verse, because they don't have the IQ to innovate and create something new out of the ashes of the old or the standard fair. That is my talent, to change or alter what is, and make it fresh and original due to those alterations...and you can't be taught that, it is either in you, or it isn't--the difference between a real artist and a fake. Hell, even Yo Yo Ma says that he can't write a hit song to save his life (something I have told people about for years before Ma's comments), and he is as skilled as you can get, as a classical musician, and yet Lennon and McCartney tower over him, a book learned fellow, with the best of education, in every way??? How ironic is that???? Well, the same is true of script, and story writing...all the formal training garbage is just that, just ask Sly Stallone.
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I've slept around ALOT (especially in my fraternity days... 3 girls in one night once... a stretch of 5 girls in 6 nights) and I have no STD's.
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of a centuries-old man getting his rocks off with a high school junior? If I, a 30-something man did that, I'd be completely ostracised, rightfully so. But a vampire and a teenager? Soooooo womantic!
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You CLEARLY have no idea what a college creative writing major is about. You learn the craft in many ways, but spend at LEAST 1 1/2 of semesters doing nothing but writing your own stuff and reading and talking about other people's stuff. You go in a good writer, you come out better... period. Then there's grad school (which i am about to start) where the bar is raised and you are forced to face the cold hard truths of what you're good at and what you aren't good at. Musicians are VERY different that writers. Being a successful self-taught musician is not that rare in the music world. Being a self-taught writer is rare. As for what you claim to do, have you ever heard the phrase "everyone's a critic" thats such a popular phrase because it is so true, and sums up in a nutshell what you are: an average person with no schooling about writing/film making who thinks his opinion matters when he doesn't know anything. The fact that you have not taken any college writing classes explains alot about you. As i said, SHOW ME (and us for the matter) what you have written. Your takes on whatever it is you seem to be analyzing are not cutting it, and are not impressive.
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Media Messiah says:
"is my talent, to change or alter what is, and make it fresh and original due to those alterations...and you can't be taught that, it is either in you, or it isn't--the difference between a real artist and a fake."
You DEFINATELY WITHOUT A DOUBT NEVER MORE SURE OF ANYTHING EVER IN MY ENTIRE LIFE CAN BE TAUGHT THAT. I've seen it first hand--a classmate early in college writes/analyzes poorly, only to have changed completely by the time its our last semester and we're in our 600 level workshop. I've seen MANY people taught that. You are delusional man. -
Media Messiah's example of who to talk to about self-taught writing: 'just ask sly stallone' He drew upon personal experience, and is a one trick pony to a certain extent. Lots of people can draw upon their life and write so well because they lived it. After that? they can't follow it up... it happens alot, you can only go to the well so many times. Yeah, his movies are good all things considered--but if he's the best example you can come up with as far as a self-taught writer, you aren't really making much of a case.
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I think the expectations are too high because so many people loved his other shows. You can't really judge a show on it's pilot episode alone. I've heard it gets a lot better as the season progresses. I'll reserve judgment until I actually see "Dollhouse" and I'll watch because it's Joss Whedon. The premise has a lot of potential, IMO, and Amy Acker is in it. I'm more excited about her than Eliza Dushku.
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X Files was the lucky one to escape its Friday night schedule, only because it became THE cool show to watch, and it was unique for its time. I loved Firefly, Buffy and Angel (Angel's last episode is one of the best episodes of any series), but this looks feh to me.
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Anybody?
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Did he get caught in Joss's house rifling through his underwear drawer? Did the police finally tackle him to the well manicured lawn as he waved his anti-Whedon manifesto about, spittle flying from his goth colored lipstick smeared mouth as he raved about 14 year old girl Herc, Whedon and thier diabolical plan to take over the entire unsuspecting television watching public?
I like to think so. -
nothing else will beat stargate when it comes out. all the fringes and dollhouses will diminish.
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The ending is so vague, it leads to speculation that Tony...and maybe even his family, were assassinated, hence, this fails to deliver the message that that mob life, is the wrong approach because that is what the series always has given us and romanced. Even in death, the mobsters are seen as martyred heroes.It is one thing if you have to do crime in order to feed your family, and another if you enjoy it. Tony enjoyed it, and his wife enjoyed it, just as long as she didn't know the details...and lastly, the kids benefited from it financially. All is well in good for Tony, wife and kids, with no consequences if they lived, and if they died, the status quo remains, as somebody would take Tony's place. The only option was to show Tony walk away...and end the show with him getting one of his famous panic attacks, and then overcoming it, and realizing he is truly free for the first time, in a long time, in his life. That would have delivered a great message to justify the series, but as it is, we just saw the pictures of chaos, from the first frame of the show to the last. We evesdropped on it, as voyeurs hoping to discover something that we didn't know, and then we had the shades pulled down upon us. However, I'll tell you, if that was the point, we didn't need the creators of the Sopranos to tell us that bad people exist, and that evil is alive, as with bad acts...and they will continue...that is just an obvious part of life, but it would have been nice to see a hopeful and highlighted counter to the proceedings. The failing of the series is that they never delivered that in a clear unambiguous fashion, that a life's lesson had been learned, and understood.
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...that Herc will love something written by Joss Whedon almost unreservedly. Now I'm gonna actually read it to see if I'm right.
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it will fuck your eyeballs so much that you will think you are watching AVATAR.
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As proven by the first sentence. But now I might be able to enjoy something by Whedon more without Herc gushing about it.
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Sci Fi will never be the same again. dollhouse sounds retarded.
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coz she cant get enough of it.
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What happened to the plan for the original pilot to be the second episode broadcast? I don't know how this series is ever going to make sense with huge chunks missing and Fox changing their minds about what they're going to show between an episode being shot and it being broadcast.
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More Dr. Horrible! Boyah!
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anything else is just a ploy
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Maybe he didn't yet understand the format of writing, but in his mental process, he had it in him to innovate on any number of things that he was/is faced with in life, not just writing. If you fully examine his personality, overall, you will probably see that he is naturally a clever or intuitive person, or both, and regularly acts on it...he may pause before he acts, and be a little messy at it when he does, but once he gets the swing of things, he shows a brilliant command of what he has been shown or studied, probably across the board. In terms of you class and the subject matter, once he knew where he stood within the realm of writing, and how to direct it, he was able to spread his wings, it happens. I didn't assail all writing classes as being bad, or all instruction, some people just have a different way of learning, one by observation, or through other informal means of instruction, i.e., learning from friends and relatives, or via books, absent an instructor as a guide, or even via personal trial and error.I simply said, you either have it, or you don't, in terms of whether you will be a parrot, or an innovator, and I stand by those assertions; that is why every musician isn't Paul McCartney or John Lennon, and every filmmaker isn't Hitchcock or Welles.
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Feb 13, 2009 6:05:39 PM CST
Stargate Universe is the reason your girlfriend is not having se
by dioxholster
she knows better now.
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With the high praise he got for the Rocky screenplay, I would have to say I did give a great example.
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coz the planet got too excited
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Bale is at peace with himself now thanks to stargate universe
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...that's actually still the plan according to Joss on Whedonesque. It's airing next week with minor tweaks. So I don't know where Herc got that info but he seems ill-informed?
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the Pope said that he is gonna watch stargate universe only, maybe some cinemax but thats it.
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that and pretentious sex.
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if you have cancer watch stargate universe unless you like chemo
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Media messiah's ego , can someone please tell me that he is being funny, in character kind of like Stephen Colbert.
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You perhaps, got lucky, or you are a carrier...and the third possibility is that you may have the XX or XXY gene, I think it is called? Many people with Welsh background cannot get AIDS/HIV as they have a mutant gene which protects them. This is a fact. Now...as far as Sex In The City...those women do eight different guys each...per every 5 or 6 episodes, per season...and nobody has picked up AIDS/HIV...or even Hep-C among four women, and their various lovers??? Please??? Even you know that makes no sense. And then there is all that sleeping around on the Sopranos??? That misleads a lot of people in our society, into thinking they are bullet proof in terms of STDs. I even met a girl with a Master's degree who's older sister told her the more you sleep around, the less chance you have of contracting an STD??? I said to the young woman, "Even you can't, and don't believe that?", but it appears that she did??? She has a Master's degree and a B.S. degree, and yet, is horribly naive, having been a sheltered child all her life.
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BSG has been weakened.
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hows sleeping around decrease your chances of getting STDs???? u wacko shamko?
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the future is near thanks to stargate universe
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a "GOD CERTIFICATION" is very rare indeed and only stargate universe and jesus got one.
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YoU aRe BeHiNd!!!
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Actually the Joss post on Whedonesque said he scrapped the entire pilot and did a rewrite and entire re-shoot due to the expectations of the network.
"The original pilot was in fact thrown out. Again, at my behest. Once it became clear what paradigm the Network was shooting for, it just didn't fit at all, even after I'd reshot more than half of it.."
http://tinyurl.com/5vofx2
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coz drugs are bad for you.
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like the dude whos fucking your girlfriend.
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Buffy is not about a girl literally fighting vampires, it is an allegory for a girl dealing with real life issues...ala a May/ December relationship that is statutory rape, in essence. It's about the forbidden fruit and rights of passage for teens in their quests to grow up, and their fears in that pursuit. They want to remain kids, but their harmones are calling them to sex and other adult issues. Vampires become like abusive boyfriends, date rapists, the bad boys who cheat on...or abuse their girlfriends, and lastly, the monster, zombies, demons, and ghouls...are adults...and the Hellmouth...the adult world; representing a teen's fears of what it is to be an adult, and to be forced to embrace those responsibilities against one's will.Vampirism and magic represent addictions and STDs...and those who carry them. That is what Buffy is about...and there is a moral to be found there, many...in fact. Life is a mine field, one that we all have to walk through, and Buffy: The Vampire Slayer is about trying to make it through that mine field, wounded yes...battered and bruised, but persevering...and sometimes against all odds, and learning a great lesson that will make you a responsible adult if you managed to survive those rights of passage.The show doesn't endorse statutory rape, it just says it happens...and it also shows that there are consequences for it, or can be. On The Sopranos, the consequence is the status quo, same with Sex In The City...the status quo is always held. Buffy always learned, matured, and changed...those other shows, and their characters, no. The problem with the Sopranos, is that they learned nothing from cheating on their wives, from beating them, from rape, murder/death, arrests, falling in love, or being imprisoned. And Sex In The City, is really life in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, pre-heterosexual transmissions of AIDs/HIV. Sex In The City is like The A-team for females, where just like The A-Team...you can shoot all the bullets and RPGs you want (translation--sleep around) and nobody ever get hurt. And that is just plain irresponsible to sell that to a largely ignorant public, who identify with it and assume, as influenced by the show, that..."Everyone else is getting away with it, why not me too???!!!" And they get the STDs that the characters on these shows are spared, because it is writers' and producers' prerogative. Again wish fulfillment fantasy being sold to the public, but a lot of people buy into it and suffer as a direct, or indirect, result and that is unacceptable, or should be.
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that said he was putting "too much visual information on every page".
(Hush commentary)
Just bask in the stupid for a moment.... -
You're *killing* me, MM.
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True. Angel is.
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i blame buffy, she showed the adult world to be creepy
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no one really takes it seriously. and if they do then good luck to them!
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Media Messaid said:
"didn't assail all writing classes as being bad, or all instruction, some people just have a different way of learning, one by observation, or through other informal means of instruction, i.e., learning from friends and relatives, or via books, absent an instructor as a guide, or even via personal trial and error."
Do you realize that in college you learn ALL of those different ways? To become a good writer you must learn in many different ways. You're fooling yourself if you think one of those methods of learning is going to turn you into a respectable writer. You either are creative or you are not. THAT cannot be taught. But any art requires extreme disipline and learning in all the different ways possible. If you are a true writer, you need to be devoted and you definately need to get help in every possible way available to you. It is the CREATIVITY that you either have or you don't. Writing is not 'in you' you need to be able to think creatively, but that just isn't enough. Take George Lucas-- an extremely creative individual but never truly learned how to write, even after all those years. Stories were in the guy, but writing was not... and in my opinion, its because he never truly did what you need to do to become a great writer. -
So, MM, howabout you tell us all about how all the Godfathers are evil... At the end of GF1, Michael personally far more brutal than tony ever was.
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by Stephen King and Writer's Digest are the only two things you need. Well that and the disipline to write at least an hour a day. I find paddles help with the disiplining. Paddle on, you Princes of Maine, you Kings of New England.
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Don't know how I'm going to keep this up through both Dollhouse and BSG. Someone entertain me!
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i'm not even going to respond to buffywrestling, there is NO WAY that that is all you need. And, MM, I don't care who your friends and family are--there is no way in hell you will get the kind feedback you do in all the writing workshops you take in undergrad and graduate school. BUT, MM, prove me wrong and let me read something you have written. i'm dead serious. i'll give you honest feedback, through email if you wish. If you're good i'll tell you, but if you are bad, i would never stoop so low as to tear your writing apart on a talkback like this. You might actually find me a valuable resource.
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You could create a new, throwaway email account and email your story from there, and in that email you tell me your real email, if you're worried about getting tons of mail because you publicly posted it here.
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Buffy was immensely alligorical. Anyone who says it isn't is either too dense to see it, hasn't seen enough of the show, or is just full of shit.
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You and MM should get a loft togther in Soho. Exchange ideas... *nudge, nudge*
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Still Buffy was right, growing up is creepy.
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If true, that is nuts...but I think a lot of these execs use their positions to interact with creators, in order to use them as unofficial teachers to school them on their creative choices...ala, "Why did you do this, that, or the other?" It is their way of picking you brains for information, without admitting it.
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I'm not saying they aren't creative - takes talent to snort coke, close a deal and finger bang your assistant at the same time - but their job is their target audience. That is their focus and nothing else. They are righteous in their crusade to mold and reign those creative minds to the needs of the network and the money scrabbling CEOs. And for the record, I was always this bitter. Stupid suits.
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I want to be the first one to write that
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Michael had reason, they were butchering his family. What you saw was not the molding of a mob Godfather...rather, you were seeing a war hero, go back to war, this time on the city streets. We are seeing the dark side that he was forced into embracing on the war field, now coming out for the first time, post war, because it was necessary for him to fight another kind of war.Tony Soprano on the other hand, was a lowlife mob captain, and not very smart, however, Michael was essentially a mob Prince...who was being positioned to live a good clean life outside of the mob, as his father wanted better for him. Sunny running the mob was just a failsafe, the family had to post someone to inherit the crown of Godfather for their protection. When Sunny was killed,and Michael lost his father, he was forced into a corner like a rat, and came out fighting with that same kind of viciousness you would expect. He is of a different class than Tony Soprano, no...this guy is an intelligent, and well educated young man who is also a decorated soldier...one who happened to be raised by a wise mobster, making him a real, but smart threat.He knew what his family was, and was shielded from it, but when people started to die around him, and he received the warning from his father that the mob would not stop until they were all dead, he went into soldier mode...and killed them all, as he should--logically speaking. That isn't being bad or evil, that is being tactical and tough. One man's hero, is another man's terrorist...and if you are on Michael's side, he is the hero, and deservingly so. That said, Tony Soprano was morally ambiguous...many times he wasn't acting for the greater good, or for his family, he was just acting out in violence, selfishness and greed. Michael however, took lives, to save lives, the most important lives, that of his loved ones. And who could honestly say that he wasn't justified, the other mobsters came after them first, and he answered like only a soldier would???
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Who stole her trousers..
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Nope...Mavra Chang tried to get my email through another poster, months ago, and I said no because I was involved with a girl at the time, and felt guilty. Then I found out that Mavra was just posting on this web site to attract readers over to her own web site, while bad mouthing Harry and others at AICN, and eventually, me...after I started one of my famous Talkback arguments. Well, I became her sacrificial lam in her quest to gather more AICN.com readers for her web site, so I was promptly assailed for no reason, other than that reason apparently, so Chang could continue to win the favor of others???My point??? I have learned my lesson. I will keep my private info, mine. Besides, you never know who you might meet online? You might be one of the Whedons...out for revenge, I don't? Joss, Jed...etc.???
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Is that beta?
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So used to seeing then role by now, 20 minutes into a program.
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la, la, la, - *tinkle bells*
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So many familar names in the credits...
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Weasel
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then create a new email address and i'll write 'Media Messiah--response to your writing' or something like that, and i'll use 'wixmmm' so no matter how much shit gets sent to that email, you can easily find my response. As a writer myself, i swear on both my grandfathers' graves (the only two loved ones i've lost) that your work will not be posted or used ANYWHERE. If you're still worried--do a poor man's copyright: Fedex yourself a copy of what you would send me and never open it. Ask around, that holds up in court. If you still refuse to send me something you've written, it must be because you suck or don't have anything worth reading. From the bottom of my heart, I am extremely interested in what someone with your values, morals, entertainment preferences and alternate, often against the grain, opinions has written. No joke.
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Guessing that ass kicking means, "No."
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Used to be able to set my watch to his rants in non-Whedon-related TBs, and could sync my watch to almost atomic accuracy with a Whedon TB like this. No sign of him for weeks. I've been late to so many events....
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Interesting commentary, including why Firefly may have "failed" on network tv, is found here:http://tinyurl.com/bp5gro
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Feb 13, 2009 8:36:41 PM CST
I would like to see a Shepherd Book backstory Firefly flick
by chromedome
direct to dvd would be fine with me.
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He's talking one thing, she's talking another...I wonder if that is the hook they will use to get the audience involved with a wipeverted doll?
Helo is kicking my ass too. "And your shoes". -
This is really not very good at all.
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this is the piolet the network wanted?
I'd like to see the other one... -
with Harry Lennix wasn't too bad. Good editing.
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Me likey Seirra!
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pilot
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He sits on coffee tables naked. He intrigues me.
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AND IT WAS LAME! THIS AND TERMINATOR ARE NOT GOING TO LAST.
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And not as bad as I thought. The clunky was more like a bicycle chain not catching than the anvil climbing I was expecting.
However, I still would have rather come into this show "already in progress" instead of exposition parade. -
Its a pretty good start and very much Joss. I enjoyed it from start to finish which is more than I can say for most shows on television today. I'm also looking forward to seeing more.
I see a lot of people complaining but not really saying anything. Post something intelligent and stop hating just to hate, its pretty lame.
I hope people actually give it a chance because with all the remakes from tv past and British its nice to see a fresh new show with new ideas. -
I don't know if it was interesting enough to watch the second episode or not. For a massive operation like the Dollhouse would seem to require they sure seem to be pretty incompetent. They don't have a codeword to turn them off or something? They don't take into account that someone has asthma? Why do they have beds in the floor? What is the point of that?
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"The Eliza Dushku Mind Control and Dress Up Fetish Hour" because that's basically what it is.
Though it is much better than I thought after all of the negative press. Joss is spinning a decent yarn sans the "ironic" snappy dialogue which is so 90's anyhow.
Eliza Dushku is a much better actress than I remember. Everything I've ever seen her in has basically been her playing faith again. But she was pretty 3 dimensional in this. But seriously, she's probably at the least a much better actress than Jessica Alba who ironically enough started her career on Fox's Friday night deathrow block as the poorman's Eliza Dushku 9 years ago. Where does the time go? But anyway this show is like a big budget slutty Halloween contest and I'm perfectly okay with that.
Oh yeah, and am I being too much of an obsessive buffy nerd or was that the old Sunnydale High exterior with the fountain that they used to shoot her college video at the end? -
All the geeks gotta go back and rip on some other show to defend the shows they like? Great we get it you wanna give Joss fellatio all day and night he is sooooo good and EVERYTHING else ever ever ever sucks.The Wire sucked...uh huh ok...The Sopranos sucked.uh huh ok....hell everything sucked except Angel and Buffy and Firefly....fuckin' LOSERS!!!!!!!! ANd umm since when do all tv shows have to make a valid societal point? HUH WTF??.HAHAHA are you shitty me.....sometimes people...and I know its hard to believe....but TV is sometimes...once in awhile...here and there...just to ENTERTAIN!!!!!! Yeah Sopranos was loved and was awesome and so was The Wire....so why pick on great shit to somehow defend your geeky love of all things Joss...I like my shit...I don't need to crap on shows you all like and talk shit about them to feel like the shows I like are good. Enjoy Dollhouse....and yeah enjoy DVDS of Buffy and Angel and Firefly....I am glad...everyone has a right to like what they like...who am I to talk shit about it.
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is fucking hot. And Bale would like to bed her down.
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That rant was more dense with truth bombs than tonights battlestar galactica! and that's saying alot. Rarely do i agree so much with some one writing with so much anger. MORE!
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He says, "More reasons to stick around: Fox execs apparently used a heavy hand in “helping” Whedon fine-tune this series’ first episode"--why does Herc consider it a good think that fox stuck its nose where it doesn't belong. This is Joss Whedon we're talking about not some amateur creator. why would i think fox execs would know how to fine tune a series opener better than he would. What's even more confounding is that Herc's review states that the season opener is kind of weak. A little help please.
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But it would have to be in your top 10 if not your top 5.
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In the beginning. After that, the show wasn't thatt good. maybe the next episode will improve the show but man this episode sucked.
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I think herc is implying that the 1st ep is weak because of the fox exec interference but latter eps are pure Joss so they will get better.
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Nothing better to do? Are your mothers sore from all the fisting you were doing earlier tonight?
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Not the terrible ALIAS rip-off I was afraid off.
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The first episode was ok.
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Since when do Ain't It Cool News talkbacks (or any talkback for that matter) have a sexual identity? Doesn't seem like a talkback needs to be gay or straight since it's not a living thing, but rather ones and zeros that people end up populating with their own thoughts. And it even makes sense, would the talkback be attracted to other talkbacks of the same identity? Should I be worried about this AICN talkback mating with, say, EW's talkback? The mind boggles.
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"He says, "More reasons to stick around: Fox execs apparently used a heavy hand in “helping” Whedon fine-tune this series’ first episode"--why does Herc consider it a good think that fox stuck its nose where it doesn't belong." >>> I think you are misunderstanding what he says, though I'll admit that Herc's writing style can sometimes lead to confusion. He's saying that people should stick around PAST this episode, since this was presumably the only episode that Fox had their heavy hands in. Make sense?
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Mavra Chang has never said one bad word about you, Harry or anybody else for that matter you fucking lying cocksucker. Get your goddamn meds adjusted you fruitcake.You're writer? sure you are. It need to be pointed out, once again, because you're a cretin, writing dumb fuck conspiracy posts on AICN doesn't make you a writer. Wixmmm, I buy that he could be a writer. You you're a fucking dope.
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he was being tongue-in-cheek and serious at the same time which threw me. he was serious about Tim Minear's writing being an asset to the show but sarcastic about the "help" of fox execs.
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that Whedon took his advice and changed the format of Dullhouse? Gee, such an improvement.
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Her legs in that short skirt are ridiculous!! She wasn't this tight and tone on Buffy. Hopefully there will be more action in future episodes.
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Right concept, wrong execution...and awfully slow moving. The interesting part of the show came late in the episode, and came in the form of the mental imprinting going wrong, with Echo remembering a captor from via the transplanted thoughts of another person, was nice...but focusing the show on miilionaires, and billionaires, who can buy reprogrammed people to do deeds for them, just doesn't work. How do the rest of us, as an audience, relate to that??? It is as if, should you be poor, or middle class, you just don't matter in the equation, only the rich count in this paradigm???As for the plot of this episode, why would a child molester go through such an elaborate scheme to kidnap, rape, and kill children? Seems like some of the particulars of the scheme were borrowed from Dark Knight...specifically the style of the Joker's opening bank robbery scene. All and all, the whole Dollhouse operation was a bore, and what a waste of a set...all dressed up, and nothing to do???As I said in previous postings, the Dollhouse should have been a uni-sex college dorm where a group of unsuspecting college students, who are living seemingly normal lives, are secretly being sent out on spy missions...all around the world. Sadly, the show, much like The New Bionic Woman...seems claustrophobic and over stuffed with high concept plot points, where the technology trumps character development. That said, the New Bionic Woman had a much better pilot/and plot...as well, it was much more entertaining, although it too, was lacking, and overwhelmed by its concept, just like Dollhouse. I would be very surprised if Whedon doesn't lose half of his audience by next week, based upon this first episode of the Dollhouse, alone. Alas, even the theme of the show was boring...although, I liked the look of the opening title credits. I don't know, this really does come off like a show that was conceived on a napkin, and makes the original Charlie's Angels look masterful.I guess if it couldn't have been done my way...and since it is a rip-off, in part, of Joe 90, perhaps they should have just done the Joe 90 thing all the way. Have Echo working for a spy agency as a programmable agent...but one who never loses her memory, mission to mission--no, she is the same girl, who is imprinted with new skills, and muscle memory, designed to fit each new mission...as needed. That was the concept of Joe 90...and it was uncomplicated, and direct, and to the point, no techno babble to get in the way of the action. In this case, however, Whedon seems overwhelmed by too much of the high concept's details, and too many side details, with very little action, too much unimportant dialogue, and too many...and boring characters. The first episode should have established the character, her enemies...and gotten straight to the point. Instead, we got a largely A-sexual pilot, starting off with a motorcycle race through the streets of L.A., which was a part of an elaborate date for some rich guy??? This was a scene that should have been an opening action sequence to establish Echo and what she can do as an agent (her abilities), instead...we got an extreme sports date, topped off with club dancing, and an innocent goodbye??? Joss is really off his game here. I am disappointed and a bit stunned, to say the least. Such a good concept, and such a big waste of effort, energy, and money. Tru Calling was a mess, but honestly, even that was much better.
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did you not see that skirt? she was practically naked from the waist down.
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As well, she has repeatedly bad mouthed Harry. I didn't care because I had my own axe to grind with Harry, now buried...and I figure, that's between them, until Chang bad mouthed me. I then reminded her that I told her that she should be writing for AICN.com (in the Script Girl Talkback...months ago)...to which she said that she was too busy and not interested in that sort of thing. No writing for her. Mavra's school and work schedule would be in her way. So I dropped it after telling her to think about it, and saying AICN needs female contributors that can grow a female audience here, in order to get women more interested in genre fair. I told her that she is intelligent and has wonderful points of view...and that women can ad a whole new perspective to reporting genre news...like Jessica Chobot, who was once at Mania.com...and really stole the show.Next, I hear nothing of Chang for months...then I saw her post on one of the Talkbacks, then nothing again for a few more weeks. Finally, I saw her post on a Talkback and she said hello to everyone, and claimed among other things that she had insomnia. Well, I posted advice for her and she attacked me at length. Now, before I read that rant, I had noticed that she had posted details about a site that she has been writing for. I was surpised since I was the one who encouraged her to write? I checked the site, and found it to be rather elaborate...and I was surprised that she went from being someone who claimed to not be interested in writing, to having posted many reviews...and other writings on this other site??? I was impressed by the graphics and pictures, etc. I finally returned to AICN.com to see if she got my post about insomnia, and how to beat it, and I was thoroughly assailed by her, as she claimed that I had been negative toward her. I then reminded her that I defended her against people calling her, and Script Girl "cunts" and so on, on the Script Girl Talkback, months ago. I also reminded her that I was the one who encouraged her to write...and this was the thanks I got? I soon realized, that based upon Mavra corraling various posters on AICN.com, via that Talkback, the one a few weeks ago, that she was trolling the site to lure net traffic away from AICN.com to her web site(s) and possibly gather email addresses along the way? On that Talkback, she was openly campaigning and giving invites, and even inviting people to submit articles and other contributions to her site(s). Those are the facts. I just find it seamy...as there is an agenda there; bad mouth Harry as you lure away his web traffic??? And once she bad mouthed me, I had no reason to be loyal to anybody here. Anyway, if you don't believe me, check that Talkback were Mavra Chang, and others were intentionally running up posting numbers, a few weeks back, to over 2000 posts, or close to it. Read my last post on there, and check her post to me...and then look at the posts immediately before those postings. You will see her recruiting regular AICN readers to post at her web site(s) just as I said. Mavra Chang is a troll who's boosting (stealing) this web site's readers...as web traffic for her site(s). She isn't a fan of this site, she's a business women, playing you guys for web site hits.
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You can see those kinds of visuals 200 times a day in commercials and in music video midday? I am talking about direct sexuality, where two people engage in sexual acts. The show was A-sexual, as it avoided any real mention of sex save for a flash of memory of Echo and her date in bed, which was a second plus onscreen, and the vague threat of a bad guy, saying that if she doesn't shut up, he'd stuff her mouth with something.
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Pacing was great, story was great, this is going to be a great story. Character setup was great.
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Call me crazy but that is super sexy on a pretty face!
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As I understand it, the original pilot was made to be film noir in tone, as well as the whole series, in that way, Whedon did change that, and the show was said to be much slower at the time. That said, the show is really lacking, if I am to take the new pilot as an example. It's still slow...and is full of fat, and side men and women...much like the New Bionic Woman??? I know that it was reported that numerous Fox executives were mirroring my views, that of the marketing department and its younger execs, and another high ranking exec...elsewhere..., however there were two, or three top execs in the tv division, who were backing Whedon all the way. Well, it looks like the latter group won out, and we all lost???I'll check next week's episode, hopefully it will be much better?
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Hi, yes it's a novel. Not every novel is a good novel. Watching cops eat nachos in a dirty Baltimore office under blinking fluorescent lighting for 60 minutes is not entertaining. Wow, look how corrupt the city is. See the office, how dirty it is? GIVE ME A BREAK. I will proudly be a fucking idiot if it means intelligent people must like this putrid pretentious garbage. Only pretentious people could only like a show like the Wire, but couldn't bother being entertained, as it would be beneath them. Like a five dollar male prostitute.
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There was quite a bit set up, and now it will take the patience of the viewers to give it a shake for a few more episodes to see if it is going to come together. Or we could all watch the Wire and watch cops watch drug dealers hang out on playgrounds for a couple of episodes.
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I will take Stanley Kubrick any day over this crazy non choreographed cheap, lazy, poorly lit action craze that is sweeping cinema and television these days. Enough Already! Jason Bourne, I'm talking to you!
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Started out weak, ended stronger. Not a great episode, but a decent pilot, which are normally poor episodes.
And Media Messiah is self-delusional, with a distorted view of his own importance. -
Feb 14, 2009 2:18:51 AM CST
The Wire is about a hell of lot more than cops eating nachos
by crazybubba
great character development. cops and criminals are interesting and fun to watch. fuck anyone who doesn't like The Wire. this is the greatest show ever made!
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While I wasn't blown away by this, it's working with some really interesting themes. What's interesting is that this is a very new direction for Joss, both stylistically and thematically. In all of his other shows - Buffy, Angel, Firefly - there was a core base of people who became a surrogate family, dysfunctional but there for each other in the end. Here, there's none of that, in fact, it's the opposite. Without that foundation, we as viewers are as groundless as Echo - this isn't necessarily a problem, as some have said. It's less comforting and drives us to ask more questions - it's definitely coming from a different place than Whedon's previous shows. And of course the kidnapping plot's not the point, but rather it's about the characters, or really about the process of quite literally creating characters. There's some interesting meta stuff going on about not just identity but the actual creative process of writing and creating a persona. The one part that may have suffered from this redone pilot thing is the Ballard subplot, which felt confusing and out of place. I hope they integrate that better in future episodes. So the show definitely has legs and I'm sticking with it, but I'm not blown away yet. And I couldn't leave a Dollhouse thread without uttering a big Shut the Fuck Up to Media Messiah. No one cares about the show you want to write or your incredibly narcissistic ramblings and your ever-expansive ego. Please just go away. To quote Anya: Can't you just masturbate like everyone else?
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In this case, if I am self delusional, with a distorted view of my importance, well then, I'm glad that Whedon did not take my advice on this episode, or I would be the one being blamed for how bad it is, hell I'd even blame myself, at this point--so I'm glad it appears that Whedon ignored me as just being a self delusional person.
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HAHAHA sad pathetic losers...like hey I don't like Buffy I never did...why...just didn't...hard to explain...but would I call it shit? nope...and why?...cause it ain't...just because I ain't into it don't make it shit. I mean WTF in hell are people pissing on The Wire for? Is this a Wire talkback?...ummm not ifuckin' ain't mmmmK....so why make your hardon for Joss and his shows spew at the expense of other shows...we get it fanboys...you wanna blow Joss and you wanna have him blow you...he is GOD everything else sucks. Oh and The Wire is about ALOT...sad you brain couldn't get it haters....I was entertained by it as I am by so much tv...I don't feel the need to be all teenager douchbag and try and make myself seem hip by pissing on other peoples favourite shows...I like what I like...get it...fuck critics...fuck you....I have a brain and my brain dictates what I I I I LIKE!!! Try it losers...just like what you like and stop hating on other peoples shit.
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...and see who's right? As for Anya, I like her, and I like masturbation. Two great things that go great together.
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didn't have many high hopes (mainly because of the reviews) but was pleasantly surprised and will tune in next week and also watch this episode again.
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Network execs, terrified that the lowest common denominator in the audience wouldn't understand it, demanded it be written on a third grade level. Should have been on cable or premium cable so that didn't happen. Wasted the first fifteen minutes of the episode on shit like "Why don't you ask Echo? Oh, that's right, she can't remember." Yes, we understood the premise of the show six months ago when we first heard about it. Tell the damn story. Next round's on me for the whole talkback if that line didn't come word-for-word from a studio note. Whedon should have had the balls to shove that note up the ass of the exec who wrote it. I'm starting to think Sorkin's "turn in the script 20 minutes before we start shooting so nobody has time to give notes or run promos that spoil the plot 2 weeks before the episode airs" method was the way to go even if it requires one to smoke crack.
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Certainly not great yet, but better than average. Strangely enough, it didn't feel that much like a Joss Whedon show. Perhaps it was the more restrained dialogue or Fox's hand in the production. Either way, I'm prepared to stick it out through the first season and see where the story goes to.
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... don't deserve to watch series. Just lobotomize yourself with Knight Rider or American Idol. Pricks. The Wire is maybe one of the greatest american piece of art in all history and so is The Sopranos (which is not about Mob but Family...). And those two shows ARE entertaining. You just have to have a brain and a few neurones to see it. Sure, there aren't sluts bitchin' about their crappy teen love life and crappy dialogues or ridiculous action scenes... The X-Files DID go somewhere during the first 6 seasons. Buffy wouldn't exist without The X-Files. Well. Go back watch your crappy little teen shows and let grown ups talk about real series.
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Are a thousand fat girls penning their first piece of Dollhouse fan fiction. Creating their first forum avatar with production stills and some shitty photoshop graphics. Shopping for silk kimonos, hot stone massages and sexy white dresses that they won't look half as good in. Yes, a thousand fan girls were just born.
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Seems to me like the only thing she did was not except you. And she might not have even done that - the circle of friends might have done it for her. Were you berated? Yes, you were. Trounced, stomped and put away wet. But I wonder, do you know why?
After all this is Talkback...I myself use sarcasm and teasing to get a point across (it makes my life better). However, the most deserving and the easiest targets are the ones who's substanial bullshit is quite obvious.
You sir, are obvious. You invite ridicule and people will be happily feed it to you.
Open wide....
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Pretty watchable. Nothing super awesome, but nothing glaringly awful either.
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Fringe took around 14 episodes before it really got going (aka before it got really good)...so I'm willing to give Dollhouse some time to grow
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Still need to watch the show.
But am being thoroughly entertained in this study of self delusion, thoughts of over importance.
Am guessing the climax will be when Media Messiah announces that he has a close friendship with Lucas and how he was influential in the making of Empire Strikes Back, but George didnt listen to him for the prequels.
The actor behind Media Messiah have to praise you on such incredible work, keep it up. -
To say that it is anything less than absofuckinglutely brilliant demonstrates ones extremely poor taste (not to mention idiocy). THE WIRE pwns anything Whedon has ever done... and I say that as a fan of Whedons work.
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And thats why its totally fucking brilliant (and totally hilarious). All you mob wannabe guys ("I know a guy who knows a guy who blows a guy in the mob! Thats why I dress like a quido jackass and think I'm cool!") who love the show don't quite realize that ITS MAKING FUN OF YOU. Which, of course, is what makes it so very fucking brilliant.
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Since there wasn't a Terminator talkback, this episode was semi-meh, although they made up for it with the John Henry scenes and The T-1000's "cleanup" scene. Too bad Robert Patrick wasn't able to get reach like that, he would have been able to kill John pretty f'ing fast otherwise, guns be damned!
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WOW. Loved. It. Loved it loved it loved it. Loved every character. Loved the plot. Can't wait for next week.
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but it was all over the place. I loved the last couple of minutes, though, with 'Echo' on the tv and the dead bodies all over the room.
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lost way too much weight. She used to look healthy-thin, now she has joined the ranks of the dangerously-thin. An audience doesn't want to see a girl's sternum poke out of her chest.
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is it is one of those shows that if it starts tanking, it can do a complete 180 with a highly publicized mid-seasons lesbian three way encounter with Dushku and special-guest stars Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg.
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I found it to be rather haunting and poignant. Echo enthusing about meeting the right guy, just before this version of her is about to be erased from existence forever, and her handler being the only one who knows what she's about to lose, that's some pretty good stuff there. Firefly didn't knock me out when I heard about the concept, and I was utterly hooked two episodes in. Then it got canceled. If this happens again I am...really going to be disappointed in the competence of FOX's management. I may even be forced to write them a strongly worded letter stating the same.
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The skinnier the better. Not starvation thin, natch, but skinny. Dushku looks friggin' HOT; she's always been hot, and she's still hot.
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...I'm intrigued to see where this goes. I really liked that movie's concept of searching for the human soul by erasing and rewriting the personalities of people until something resisted the change. From what I've heard, it seems like this series may delve into some of that as well.
I'm less interested in Echo's mysterious past... You get a lot of mysterious pasts these days. Really, as much as I enjoyed the X-Files, I do wish every drama on the air didn't have to introduce mysteries that won't fully be explored for years (if ever). Hopefully this won't be the case here. -
Whats up with all the haters here. Just watched it this morning on DVR... and I gotta say... I really like it. My wife really likes it as well.
I like the premise alot. Thought the acting was good. Why does that guy from Journeyman always have to play an asshole? Overall Imho it is a solid 8/10 for me, my wife gives it 7/10. Way better then Bionic Woman. -
Feb 14, 2009 10:45:09 AM CST
I think a part of the reason for the quixotic reactions...
by rbatty024
is the fact that people don't know what to make of the show. I certainly don't at this point. Is it an adventure of the week like Quantum Leap? How involved will the larger story arc be? It's very strange territory for a television show, and in fact seems like a premise more suited for a film. Also, it's missing some of Joss Whedon's characteristic dialogue. That being said, I'm still looking forward to the rest of the season and I hope it's a success so I can actually figure out where Whedon is going with this.
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But there was lots wrong with the show.
First ep should start with BIG GRAB, not half hour of nothing (except Eliza shaking her booty).
As with so much of TV and movies, visual for no dramatic effect.
Example: the motorcycle "chase." Why? Did it have some purpose? Only after it was over did we learn that Echo and her boyfriend-du-soir were rivaling.
Set things up. Give audiences reasons to care about what they're seeing.
And if the concept involves Echo getting some dodgy programming before each engagement, then Olivia Williams' character should shut down operations.
Eliza probably enjoys the show because she gets to play different roles in episodes.
But actors enjoying themselves does not always translate into audiences enjoying themselves. -
Will definitely give a few more tries. I kinda wish Dushku was playing sidekick to the dolls--she's so charismatic, it's not exactly fun to see her playing a librarian
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Twin Peaks, The Prisoner, original Doctor Who, original Star Trek, The West Wing, The Twilight Zone, The Wire.
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It certainly wasn't as bad as the critics indicated. Maybe they are judging Whedon by a higher standard than other TV guys, because it was still a bit better than a lot of trash that gets shat onto the airwaves.
However, it wasn't very fresh or compelling, and I will tune out and wait for some better word of mouth before I watch this again. I wish everyone luck, because I like many of the writers and actors involved, and because it would be nice to have a good new show to replace some of the great shows that recently wrapped (THE SHIELD, THE WIRE, BSG, etc). -
I didn't care for the West Wing, though. There wasn't much there for me. Everything else I totally agree. I'd put THE PRISONER at the very top of the list. Its STILL powerful awesome.
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I like the concept and I'm assuming it has nowhere to go but better. That being said though, the thing I most liked about other Whedon shows were the character relationships and the humorous dialog. I'm not sure how this show will ever have either. This is really a different type of show for him and I'm not sure it plays to his strengths. But the concept has so much potential that I'm willing to see where it goes. It'll either become great, and squeeze out another season, or it won't and I'll have lost little time watching it.
And yes, those leggedies were looking mighty fine in the beginning. But watching Dushku next to Summer Glau in those commercial breaks, I couldn't keep my eyes off of Summer. Her face is a fucking work of art. And Terminator was compelling as usual. That's probably the show I look forward to the most right now, right after Lost. -
Feb 14, 2009 11:27:44 AM CST
Wheddon is firmly stuck in the 1990's
by elvispresleehorsleyharveyoswaldoprahwinf
His writing lacks even a hint of the post-HBO irony and intelligence that most successful shows cling to these days. For some this may be great. I found it a vacant, mindless pose-fest. It wasn't that it was so bad, it WAS bad, but the problem for me was that it was new and felt dated. The look of the production and the storytelling are a misbegotten throw-back to an era of TV most of us have long since moved beyond. JW is in desperate need of an update to his approach. This may be the real reason we see Buffy continuing only in marginalized fanboy formats and no Firefly sequels. His ideas simply fall flat in the current age of television.
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I was expecting the worst after the reviews, but I found myself liking it. Why would anyone think it was boring? I thought it was pretty smooth flowing.
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I would put Lost and E.R. up there, even though E.R. proved to be the show that wouldn't die. The pilot episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation did a pretty good job of introducing viewers to its world as well as giving a compelling story (although, the set design and special effects feel as dated as the original series). The Prisoner and Twin Peaks were also great right out of the gate. Otherwise, there really aren't that many I can think of. Most television shows take a season to get going and, if they make it far enough, I've found that most really hit their stride in the third season.
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I've never heard of this method of watching television. Can't you make your own mind up about watching a show? Either you want to keep watching or don't. Instead let's wait until other people tell me to watch. Grab a pair, for chrissakes.
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Twilight Zone, Muppet Show, M*A*S*H*, Star Trek TNG (some of the time), STDS9 (later seasons), Twin Peaks, Northern Exposure, Sports Night, X-Files (1st 5 seasons), Farscape, Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Lost, BSG.
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...so was the Sopranos, even if it petered out in the third season. Supernatural had a good pilot, even if the rest of S1 was only so/so. Alias had a good pilot, although that show ended up pretty rocky too. Veronica Mars had a pretty good pilot. I liked Carnivale's too, although I'm sure others might debate that one.
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I thought it did a good job of setting up the mission-centric structure of the show and gave us a taste of some of the characters and what's to come. I'm most interested in Captain Mifune Echo's handler and Paul Ballard should have gotten more time onscreen. Didn't really get a sense of Topher though, he just mumbled some lines and mentally undressed Amy Acker, who appears to be playing some variation of Fred therein. Anyway, I didn't get the reviewers disdain for this pilot at all, I guess the setup bogged them down instead of seeing the big picture that's being set up with this show.
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It had so many little details in it, I really did have to watch it twice. The show never reached that height again for me, unfortunately. The first season was as slow as molasses, and while the second season picked up the pace, it never had the depth that the first ep presented.
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Feb 14, 2009 2:02:41 PM CST
That Grindhouse Term/Doll promo is fantastic (also: ratings)
by tallboy66
Great bit. Also, the ratings are in and Fox came in 3rd for each show. Course, Fox comes in 3rd a lot (unless it's an American Idol night) so who knows what it all means. (Dollhouse actually slightly improved on Terminator's ratings. I didn't see either, I was out watching Friday the 13th. I guess alot of potential audience members were too. If they were Nielsen households, that's a whole different story.) I'm no good at decoding ratings, but someone who is more "in the know" go to www.zap2it.com and figure it out for me.
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this was a pretty interesting pilot. Like I said I'm not a Whedonite and I was waiting for this to fail but it was decent enough to make me want to watch another episode. I don't get the complaint that it was confusing either. You'd have to be stupid to not be able to follow what's going on which apparently several critics are.
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I managed to not ever watch a whole episode of it. I loved the movie for it's cheesiness but I have no interest in watching that skank Gellar in anything.
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What, no love for The Outer Limits?
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Instead of dumping all this money into Dollhouse it would have been better to bring back Firefly but now that everyone is busy (Glau with Terminator, and Fillion with Castle) I guess he can't, but crap, I think Firefly would come back bigger than ever. I tried to like Dollhouse, and I love sci-fi stuff, but the premise is silly and unnecessary. The mindwiping doesn't make any sense.
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since it is after all, based on a book. AND the first season is basically following the book's plot (although, and I don't say this often, it really improves it. The tv series is much better written than the novels. Strange.) Regardless, the tv writers have a huge starting off point with which to work - characters, set, plot - none of this is a new world. The pilot starts of established because everyone is already sure where things are going and who people are (and even then, Deb got way better as the show went on.)
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Terrible. I dug Buffy, Angel and Firefly... and that was just an awful Pilot. All the excuses you won't change a thing - it was just bad.
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I was expecting it to be a lot worse. It was a touch above mediocre, nothing about the pilot stood out, but it was a competent story solidly told and acted. As for the pilot discussion, Quantum Leap, West Wing, Dexter, Lost, those are probably the best pilots I've seen (and I don't even watch Lost anymore). This show can definitely improve, and being a Whedon fan I think it will. But if it doesn't, I think this show would still stand up as good television filler, I guess we'll see.
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The best pilot I've ever seen and the series itself was as good as TV gets. "Dollhouse" was pretty good and it'll be interesting to see where it goes from here.
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Just 2.8 for Dollhouse, and 2.4 for Sarah Conner??? And you can expect an even higher loss of ratings for Dollhouse next week. Dollhouse is in major trouble in two ways...1st) its own ratings are low to begin with. For basic cable, the show would be considered a hit...but for a broadcast network, they are only getting about 1/4 of the audience that Lost is now getting, and about 1/10th the audience of Lost...when it was considered a hit. 2nd) Dollhouse's led-in, the Terminator spin-off, actually got lower ratings than the show it is supposed to be helping, and that would be Dollhouse, and that has only served to hurt Dollhouse even more.And though I didn't see any information about it on Zap2it.com...I bet the ratings for Dollhouse actually fell the first half hour and got worse as the show progressed. The networks actually look at those stats, and that is why the show should have been stacked with action and sex (as well as sexy imagery), top heavy even, during the first 5 to 10 minutes of the show, and perhaps the first 15 minutes even, to prevent people fron channel surfing away from the show...as well, to capture channel surfers who hadn't intended to watch the show in the first place. This would also be a good tactic to use around the half hour mark, and around commercial breaks, an amp up of action, sex, and or, cliff hangers, used to hold, and or gain, audience would help.The show was slowly paced, badly cast, and the opening song is a downer. The whole series needs an entire reboot, and fast. I would suggest that they just go all Joe 90 on everybody, and reveal that the Dollhouse was being used initially as a Venus Flytrap to lure rich men into compromising positions with the Actives so that they can be blackmailed by the government with videos of the sexual encounters with their operatives (the Actives). Any side cases, like the hostage negotiation stint, was just a field test to work-out any glitches for the Actives before they are re-purposed for their real mission, and that is to act as fully conscious agents, no more mind whips for missions (although, perhaps convenient mind wipes related to mission details, after words to secure and protect top secret details of said missions). The Actives will now only receive imprints so they can be experts in whatever is needed to accomplish their missions, whether they need to know a field, or trade skill, or even a language or martial art. Doing that would better streamline the show, and better focus it for audiences, however, with them now 13 episodes in, if Joss hasn't already done something similar to what I am now suggesting, the show is in some major, major trouble.
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look guys we can't always have a rockin 2 hour pilot like firefly had. But consistently whole watching this I was intrigued enough to continue. A few things popped up as illogical or weird but I never felt something was being over done or was just lame. Good acting, decent mystery and some pretty solid editing. If this is the worst episode they show then I'm glad to keep watching.
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yet again, you're questionable and selective views of morality astound me. Putting that aside, your delusional claim about how you have the talent (that cannot be taught, apparently) to 'make things better' is a riot. Bribing rich men with sex photos? Yeah, nice one, I saw Bank Job too. So how about you sending me a sample of your writing? i'll do whatever it takes to read something you've written.
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I can already see it coming: the show will be cancelled and you will boast about how you predicted it. Low ratings + friday timeslot = show on death row. Not tough to call... but i know i'll see you taking the credit for calling it on the inevitable day it is cancelled.
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And your idea for the show is pathetic. I bet someone writing on a bathroom wall in a drunken stupor would have a better idea than the one you just presented.
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to just ignore Media Messiah. As hard as it is not to laugh or tell him to shut the fuck up, that his claims that the show will tank 'unless Joss does what I say' are the height of self-delusional megalomania, I'm thinking that any response to him will just feed his sociopathic nature and his frighteningly sick narcissism. If I have to put up with his crap every Dollhouse talkback, I'm going to lose it.
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I mean that the show is visually unappealing. Yes, Dushku is a cute girl. But the show is lacking in visual style and the actual image quality is dull. I couldn't bring myself to get interested in it because of this. Then there's the fact that the whole ass-kicking chick (even if she is a robot or whatever) thing has already been done with 'Dark Angel' and 'Alias,' both of which were far more interesting LOOKING shows. So, no...None for me, thanks.
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instead of the network ordering the negotiator episode.
Generally, Dollhouse and Terminator Chronicles should pull out all the stops all the time. Stop trying to milk a series for a seven-year run and the series might get a seven-year run.
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I apologize if I hurt your feelings. Now, I would like to straighten out a couple of misconceptions
1.I do not believe that I badmouthed you. I did say, if I recall correctly, something to the effect that I felt that you were being patronizing towards me and that I preferred to speak to TBers who did not do that. I am sorry that you feel you need to hold a grudge about that. 2. I have never badmouthed Harry. If I did not like this site, I would not spend so much time here. I appreciate this site and do not believe that I have ever dissed it. 3. The website you accuse me of using to decimate AIC was built by another TBer in November (yes, just 4 months ago, though I have been coming to this site for 3 years), not me, and given to me as a gift. I did not have plans to be a writer. Also, it is a very small website and I do not think that Harry or AIC has anything to worry about competition-wise. 4. The people that I "trolled" to are friends of mine on this site. If they do not want to go there, then they will still be considered friends by me. 5. I have had your email address ever since ChocolateReign wrote to me, as it was included in his letters. I have never asked you for it nor have I used it. 6.I am happy to be a part of the CoC and Twitch is our established chatting ground. It has been that way for many months 7. Why am I even being brought up here? If you would like to trashtalk me some more, why don't you do it on Twitch where I can address the issues without other people needing to tell me that someone is slamming me behind my back. Bad form, sir. Bad form. -
I rest my case!!! As I said, with the way the series turned out, based on the pilot episode, I'm glad he failed to take my advice...as I wouldn't want to be blamed for this blunder.
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over over-praised dung confusion like 'Lost,' or why-should-I-care 'Fringe'
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It felt like there was heavy interference. Not much snappy dialogue or humor, not very Whedonesque at all. Of course, looking at the preview of next week's ep, a lot of what seemed like filler may play into the overall arc instead. We'll see. For now, I'm considering it part one of a two hour pilot.
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Ohh... Mavra was a meany to me. boo fucking hoo cocksucker.Answer me this cocksnot. Why did you bring Mavras name into a TB she wasn't even in at the time? Trash talking somebody not in a TB is the lowest form of cowardness possible on a TB. Congrats on reaching the bottom of the barrel again loser.
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Feb 14, 2009 5:41:59 PM CST
It's a wonder Herc could even post this without jizzing his pant
by photoman
Whedon overload for him. He's probably in a coma now over it. Also, I saw it. Like everything else Whedon has ever done (except for Dr. Horrible), it was "okay". Not great, not terrible. Just "okay".
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Lost got only a 5.7 share with 9 million viewers...so unless your doing some new math Dollhouse's 2.8/5 share is getting a little more then half of the total viewership of Lost( which is not in the death slot that Dollhouse is in ). Now don't get me wrong , I also predicted poor ratings for both of these new friday shows and I was pretty disappointed with the first half of Dollhouse but liked the 2nd half. I also agree the child like behaviour that the actives are set up with between missions is a poor choice for the viewers to latch onto. Still I am sure the show will get better and better as it goes along..but it will not last more then the 13 episodes already filmed. This is also the last season of TSCC for sure..its to expensive to survive such poor ratings.
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You're right, it wasn't Whedonesque, his signature dialogue quirks were completely missing. I really wanted to like the Dollhouse and I've been looking forward to it, but I think it's just a bad idea for a story. The plots is just way too contrived.
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If you look at all of his shows he is constantly able to bring actors that are engaging and interesting. The Sarah Connor Chronicles Terminator is a former Whedon employee. I say this mainly because so many shows with good premises hire boring generic actors/actresses that ruin everything a.k.a. Life on Mars. great supporting cast generic lead.
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Don't forget Roswell. The first episode was one of the best hours of television period.
Of course three seasons later it was shit. -
Thats because the whole creative team from the first season left the show..or at the least the showrunner and his partner.
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THE SHIELD, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, ROME, MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS, 24, SOAP, etc.
On the flip side have been debacles like VIVA LAUGHLIN, COP ROCK, SMALL WONDER, POOCHINSKI, and others, all of which were absolute shit from minute one. Luckily DOLLHOUSE doesn't qualify for that list. -
i love how when a show isnt going the way someone thinks it should go, out pops the magical word REBOOT...im happy star trek:the next generation didnt premiere in this keyboard jockey, fanboy, reboot, universe.....with all u whiny lil babies with nothing else better to do than post over and over and over, it would hav prob been cancelled or ignored before it reached its stride in the 3rd season and became a great show for the next 5 yrs... give the show a chance...its one fracking episode!!!!.... love all the familiar faces showing up....fred, faith, the guy from BSG....
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Yeah, yeah, everybody hates B&B Trek and Enterprise, but it's first episode when humans met Klingons was super-awesome.
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That reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDQ2h4hrors
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Good production values, mostly great casting (the dude who runs the wipe chair is annoying as hell, but otherwise well-cast). Writing seemed a little off for Whedon work, but I will wait and see some episodes that were not effed by Fox Suits. Dushku looks and acts well in it, except for a directorial choice where they all walk around looking blank.Good to see Dushku back, but GREAT to see Amy Acker back! You could almost SEE where Fox effed with the flow: the shift from Echo's coercion into signing to suddenly on the motorcycle race was jarring and stupid. No doubt Whedon wanted to develop the story and character into the transition, but the dumbass suits said NO, MUST HAVE ACTION SCENE [scratch scratch, puzzled look at fingertips, fingers into mouth] SOONER TO KEEP AUDIENCE. Opening titles have cool Lensbaby effect that really really works well. They used it also during the phone calls to the kidnapper, but less impactful there.
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The DOLLHOUSE is the same set design used for Wolfram and Hart which is odd because I could have sworn those sets were destroyed.
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WOLFRAM AND HART LIVES ON.... as the Dollhouse
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In terms of math, I was rounding things off.
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I was asked a questioning, one asking me to supply information on myself, via writing samples. I answered, by saying why I would not supply said information by giving an example as to the reason I would not do such a thing, among other reasons. Then someone accused me of being a liar, to which I answered their false claims in detail.
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I was asked a question, one asking me to supply information on myself, via writing samples. I answered, by saying why I would not supply said information by giving an example as to the reason I would not do such a thing, among other reasons. Then someone accused me of being a liar, to which I answered their false claims in detail.
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you don't know, how, to use commas.May be why some question your credibility & credentials.
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When Gerry Anderson did it with Joe 90! LOL
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I'd like to see Joss Whedon needs to take time out and do more musicals in the vein of Dr Horrible and Buffy, Season Six Episode, "Once More With Feeling". Forget Cop Rock, if Whedon did a musical series it would be awesome. His comic book stuff has been just as brilliant as his best TV stuff. If Buffy had slept with a girl on the show, the way she did in Season 8: Wolves at the Gate, everyone in the press would be talking about it like American Idol didn't matter. With Dollhouse, I think he's trying to spread too far, too thin between appeasing Fox and expressing his own postmodern, idiosyncratic style. I enjoyed the pilot of Dollhouse at a superficial level but it didn't enthrall me. The characters didn't strike me as having a rich emotional life. And the nerdy guy that programs the actives was annoying. The show's strange premise really make it yearn for that Whedon humor that's only there in small doses. Sigh... It's provocative. I'll keep watching sci-fi Friday to it's tragic end. With the final episodes of HOLY BATTLESTAR airing, it's a good time to stay at home on Fridays. But Dollhouse is just not Firefly or Buffy. I hope someone let's Joss do a futuristic sci-fi show again. But next time, he's got to remember to get the Hero's Journey in there or it won't be a hit. All god sci-fi/fantasy need the Hero's Journey a la Buffy, Harry, and Luke if you want it to break over and get a mass mainstream audience. I just got the Dr. Horrible DVD and it's one of my favorite things ever. Commentary: The Musical is probably my favorite extra of all time.
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Nobody noticed the Sunnydale High exterior in her college video at the end. She's pretty much sitting in the same spot the scoobies used to meet for lunch or witty banter at the end of all the season 1-3 episodes.
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This episode didn't even seem like a Joss Whedon show. I don't think he's doing what he does best here. Actually, I know he isn't, because what he does best is Firefly. And I'm not buying the premise of the show at all. I'll keep watching for now, but I don't have high hopes for this thing.
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Here's the thing--you claim to be a writer. you are delusional and believe that your voice has an impact. The phrase: "everyone's a critic" sums up everything about you. You claim that being a critic is something that cannot be taught. You believe you have the ability to influence shows, and make them better. You are glad your ideas weren't taken because then somehow you would be to blame. You don't seem to think going to college to learn how to write means much... you believe its either in you or its not, and if you get better while in college, it is because of your natural ability. The fact is, you think you are...well... a "Media Messiah." And yes, i DO want a sample of your writing, and creating a throwaway email address and using poor man's copyright would make sure you don't get bombarded with hate email and that i won't steal your ideas. If you want any kind of respect, you need to prove that you are a writer. Why do you post on aintitcool so much when NOBODY likes or respects you. Everyone thinks you're a delusional idiot, yet you continue to post like you matter... and there are times where it seems like you are proud to have started a big debate that turns into a flame war.
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I can't believe you pathetic dweebs. If this MM guy was all he claims to be, he wouldn't be spending hours here antagonizing idiots like you. Anybody who reveals such self-important thoughts and opinions in this forum is a fucking loser. He's a wannabe who never will be. Ignore him and he'll go away. I mean, my GOD, he's spending a huge chunk of time trying to impress US! How sad is that? Pity him.
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And shes not particularly attractive either, she reminds me of a hooker in red light district.
Is there a possibility this show will survive? Unfortunately I don't think so, although, maybe its not unfortunate as it was with Firefly, asides from the shockingly bad pilot of dollhouse, the whole premise sounds like a loser concept.
Top Shows: The Shield, The Wire, The Sopranos, First Season of Twin Peaks, Rome -
Sunnydale High and Wolfram and Hart - check... will we get the cowboy in space next episode ? It was ok... I suppose we have to give it time, but as has been said already subtlety and Fox don't exactly go hand in hand... if it doesn't hit a homer straight off the bat it's going to struggle to get people interested... I don't see many people shrieking with glee on monday morning talking about the great new show they saw on Friday night... Seems like Joss is trying to appeal to the same people in the same way he did before.... and we all know how that ends up don't we...
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Call me a delusional idiot all you want. I don't mind. You're not getting a writing sample from me other than my posts.
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Yes...you are right. I suggest that you take your own advice, and that others follow your lead. Really, I don't mind at all. It's best that you believe that I am exactly what you expect me to be.
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Yep...Gerry Anderson did a great job with Joe 90 and if they were going to rip that show off, to make it fully pay-off, they should have ripped it off all the way.
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She seems like a nice girl, but too much is being placed on her shoulders here...and I think she is being overwhelmed by the prospects of it all. I think she is very attractive, in fact, I wouldn't complain if I was her husband...but as an actor, she seems to have regressed? Her work as Faith was always solid and top notch. Sadly, she doesn't seemed to know how to find that sweet spot anymore, perhaps because she is being asked to play so many different personas each episode, and each week??? This is the reason why they need too give her one main personality right away, and for the wealth of the show. Their failure to do that, and the fact that everyone (the fans, to the execs, and ultimately Joss) seems to be overlooking her problems in regard to her acting being out of synch, is really costing her, and the show. I wish this young woman the best, because I think she is an honest to goodness sweet person, but I don't think the industry has really taken the time, to take the time, to truly develop her as a talent. I mean, look at her in True Lies, she delivered...and was half the age she is now...or almost that. James Cameron knew how to direct her, and Joss used to know...but I think something has been lost somehow? Maybe she just isn't studying hard anymore...or perhaps something has changed in her life...and you never know about those things, what changes people??? Again, I wish her well, but I am just honestly reviewing the weaknesses of the show.
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I think she did a fine job. They shouldn't rely on her character as much to carry the whole show but she did ok. She is a pretty girl , her legs looked awesome in that dress.
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had the presence of mind to include the pilot for The Shield as among the best.As for Dollhouse, it was OK, and nice of them to call out the commercial breaks so it was easy to know how many times to push the 30sec skip button. The guy they cast as the imprinter (or whatever) was too much geek, and not enough genius. To me Dushku is one of those who can shine in the right circumstances, in both looks and acting, but I don't think she is strong enough to lead a show. We'll see if it gets better, but I doubt anybody would trumpet it as a triumphant return to TV for Whedon.
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to completely fuck things up. terrible. wtf was that theme tune about? no wheldon signature speech. dukushu, is not a butterface, though with the right make up makess up for it. every ones so fricking wooden are they all "agents?" nice to see reed diamond get work after journeyman. but that gut from bsg is not floating my boat either.
where did it all go wrong???"?"?"? -
Eliza's lips, Eliza's eyes, the rest of Eliza.
Also, Dichen Lachmann as Sierra. Strikingly exotic Gun Chick.
Key factor in any show for me: Gun Chick, Sword Chick, or any other type of Weapon Chick. -
that feel as if they could be a standalone film. Let me add Batman: The Animated Series to my list, because the man-bat episode blew my pre-teen mind. That entire series felt like half-hour long films.
What about the even rarer occurrence, that of a great series finale. I rather enjoyed the Buffy finale, and even though Angel ended on a cliff hanger, it was still pretty damn good. Star Trek: The Next Generation had a damn near perfect finale. I also enjoyed Bob Newhart's dream sequence twist, which could have ended up terrible but managed to be clever. Perhaps the worst finale was Seinfeld's. Terrible ending to a great series. -
It seems that character development for the main character of this show is utterly impossible, eh? Whos gonna watch that.
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Utter crap. Obviously Whedon needed some coin and fast - this thing not only made no sense, it was boring. Badly directed and badly written. How far the mighty have fallen, indeed.
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Which is why it had only fleeting glimmers of Whedon's signature style.
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Let's hope Echo kills him hard, and Acker takes over the Techno Geek job.
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among the most disconnected, weird-ass lines ever, and for that reason alone, his character is dead to me. I gotta believe that a Fox Suit forced that line into the script--Joss hadda know it sucked.
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I hadn't found the words to voice it, but a series pilot must play like a stand alone film, like you said. If it doesn't, it tends to hurt the show.The hostage negotiator arc was, ridiculous because the scope of it was so small for such a big operation, on either side, be it the heroes, or the villains...it carried no real weight to test the lead with??? To give the pilot the scope of a film, the premise should have centered on the kidnapping of The President's teenage daughter..and Dushku's character should have been sent in as a operative to crack the ring and get her back...ala the movie Taken...a sort of Jason Bourne, in his older days. Well, the Dollhouse pilot should have moved like that movie...instead, they turned the show into a slow moving cop procedural, one which hadn't earned the right yet, in terms of first, and successfully, establishing its characters, to do that.Lastly, on the issue of successful movies and pilots, usually they are used to establish not only the hero/heroes, but they are used to establish a strong villain, or villains and their conflict. We got none of that with Dollhouse, a clear flaw in the plotting.BTW, the techno babble on the show...has to go, and immediately. I hate that programmer nerd...his manner, and schemes; the guy just does not work. Let's just see Echo out in the field doing her job...solo, or with other agents. The higher ups should only be seen in sequences where she is briefed, or debriefed, for her missions.
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a mystery to US what the Dollhouse is, just like the "pattern" on Fringe.We should have simply seen Echo in the field without realizing she is programmed. We should have had Helo investigating human traffic, find out incidentally about the Dollhouse as a destination for some of the kidnapped. The second episode should have shown Echo doing something completely different, with unexplained expertise yet again.What was really happening in the Dollhouse should have been discovered and revealed to us more slowly.I bet Fox Suits nixed the idea, as they wanted something "jazzy" from the get-go.So, now, the biggest mystery of the thing is Amy Acker's scars.Joss's greatest strengths as a writer are in developing characters we care about, and dialog, with plots and stories as a framework/foundation for those things. With Echo being wiped each week, character development will be trickier, but since that is the core of Whedon's work, I suspect there will be some problem with the wipe/reload process so that she can retain/recover some memories.
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MM, I think you're right that higher stakes would have made for a better pilot. I still enjoyed the show but it just wasn't the best way to introduce the concepts. I'm looking forward to how it develops, however.
Chromedome, from what little I've read about the show it appears that Fox wanted more action and more explanation. Whedon wanted the show to have more of a film noir feeling (which would have been more surreal and have left the audience largely in the dark about some questions). However, Fox made Whedon start off with the bike chase and get rid of the film noir setting. I'm sure this affected his vision of the show, so it makes sense that his writers will take a few episodes to get their bearings. -
alright MM, i've been tough on you, and you've said some... odd things... but i am man enough to swallow my pride and give credit where credit is due, no matter what i think of the person-- your point about how they revealed too much too early is spot on. The show would have had alot more going for it if there was more mystery to the foundation of the plot, a'la fringe's pattern, as you pointed out. I've called you proof of alot of things, but in this case you prove that if you swing for the fences, eventually you're gonna hit a home run, no matter how many times you strike out trying to do it. Anyways, if you would stop thinking that what you say has the potential to impact a show/movie you are discussing, you wouldn't be met with such hostility.
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Joss has said in interviews that Echo DOES begin to retain memories between wipes, and that the 'neutral' character will begin to be more relatable as she grows. That she's like a child growing into herself. I have to disagree about having the 'Dollhouse' be a mystery that the series leads up to , like Fringe. Sorry, but boring. Been there done that, so many times. Every single show about a 'shadowy organization' blah blah blah. I like the fact that what we're introduced to as a home base is a place where we don't know the rules, who's 'right' and who's not. That we are just as at the mercy of these people as Echo is. I can't believe that no one has picked up on the meta stuff here. Fox is the Dollhouse (at least that's one interpretation). Or substitute any Hollywood studio. Topher is the writer, Olivia Williams is Tom Rothman, the handler is the director, the dolls are actors. I like seeing the operation from the inside from the beginning, seeing the conflicts (especially between 'mission' and 'engagements'). Again, it wasn't a perfect pilot, and I would have liked to have seen what it would have been like without studio interference, but I'm looking forward to seeing the whole 12 episodes. Joss has a 6 year plan, he says. Anything's possible.
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now i'm going to do something i never thought i'd do--defend something MM said. You're definately right--a 'shadowy organization' has been done ALOT. But the X Factor here is that its Whedon, who we all know is capable of incredible things... firefly had a 'shadowy organization' and the explanation that we did get (although probably not ALL he intended us to get) was definately original and tied together things beautifully. Any other writer/director does the 'shadowy organization' thing and i'd speak up against it... but i think whedon is capable of taking that concept, and making it unique and keeping us guessing. I agree with your point, but I want the layers of plot that we all know whedon can do so well. Its not fair that he is held to such a high standard, but that's the way it goes. At least people weren't telling us that just because whedon is doing the show it would be fucking our eyeballs right about now.
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But maybe he's an Active for an enemy Dollhouse, depending on how Matrixy they want to get.
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but a 'shadowy organization' is not what this show is about. You want shadowy organizations, he's writing one right now for the Buffy comic: Twilight (that's the name of the organization, no connection to that cheesy teen vampire shit that wishes it was Buffy). But Dollhouse is not about shadowy organizations. Dollhouse is about the creation of identity, and how an individual can break through despite its programming by the shadowy organization. How shadowy is the organization? Are they truly helping people? I'm already beginning to wonder if Echo's handler actually will find out that he's been wrong about the Dollhouse and that maybe there's more grey than might first appear. By placing us at the outset within ethically ambiguous circumstances, we're left asking interesting questions. That to me is FAR more interesting than another mystery about a shadowy organization.
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good point. you've made me change my mind, and actually raised my hopes for the show a little bit, thinking about it your way. Sorry MM, I guess fate, destiny and logic will never allow us to agree.
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although the show didn't hold up. But that first episode was fantastic!!
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At this rate he will be lucky if he reaches 6 weeks out of the series before it is cancelled. Time for him to pull a Serenity, and put all the cards on the table, where the story arc of the show is concerned, and as soon as possible, while the show is still running, because I can guarantee you, there will be no movie version later, when it is cancelled.
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Whedon can do what he wants with his own damn show. I'm so sick of hearing your bullshit, amateurish 'suggestions' and your doomsaying. If you're so deadset against the show succeeding why are you bothering wasting your time and ours every time this show is mentioned? You obviously want to live in your own world where only your ideas (lame as they are) are taken seriously. So go ahead, start your own network with a viewership of one - you - and leave us the hell alone. We'll all be much happier.
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If you did, you wouldn't bother attacking me.
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That's where something like this should be. I don't see how this can go long term in any satisfiable fashion and still work within the broadcast TV framework. It's doomed, doomed I say.
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you're an asshole troll, plain and simple. I'm attacking you because of sick of reading your stupid posts which only seem to entertain you.
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I'd give it a good grade (B+ anyone?).. the opening with her being a racer/slow-pan-up-body-while-dancin' party girl did nothin for me (maybe cus I'm gay?), but lots of coolness once she'd transitioned into her meekstrength negotiatrix. Don't care much yet for the blonde Operator guy, but digging her Handler. My boyfriend sez "meh."
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The plot and premise make the best Knight Rider episode look like Shakespeare! It was boring! Like a previous poster stated if you are a filthy rich tycoon and your daughter is kidnapped why hire someone programmed with the personality of a highly successful hostage negotiator when you can pay the an actual expert? Why would a rich guy hire someone to be reprogrammed as a perfect date that puts out when you can just hire a high class call girl for what I assume is a cheaper price than this "Dollhouse" organization. The characters were two dimensional like most Fox show characters are. This is like something they would have put out in the late 80's. Jesus my local channel raffled off a PS3 system to one lucky viewer that's the only reason why I watched. I give this show a season and a half simply because Whedon is behind it. Otherwise this show would be lucky to last 5-6 shows tops before it's plugged was pulled. What's with the smarmy operator guy who wipes Echos memory anyway. He is something out of a bad 80's action flick. Bert Convy called from the grave guy, he wants his sweater vest back! Geeze!!!!
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Herc actually gave an objective review to something! What is even more insane is he gave an objective review to a Whedon property. Shocking doesn't even begin to describe this.
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"You could almost SEE where Fox effed with the flow: the shift from Echo's coercion into signing to suddenly on the motorcycle race was jarring and stupid. No doubt Whedon wanted to develop the story and character into the transition, but the dumbass suits said NO, MUST HAVE ACTION SCENE [scratch scratch, puzzled look at fingertips, fingers into mouth] SOONER TO KEEP AUDIENCE."
I really highly doubt that Whedon intended to give away any more about Echo in the pilot than exactly what he did, the story behind her recruitment into the Dollhouse obviously is something he wants to feed us gradually. I'm all for bashing Fox when it's due, but I think you just plain didn't get what Whedon was doing there. -
First impression: train wreck. On occasion you catch some old, canceled and forgotten show from the early nineties rerun on the scifi channel in the early hours, and think it could be quite good if it was made today, now that we've come to expect television of higher quality. Dollhouse felt like that.
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Feb 16, 2009 9:51:37 AM CST
If only I could be the one to wipe Eliza Dushku's character
by turketron
I would be quite happy.
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Discuss. Firefly.
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Discuss. Firefly.
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the first line of the entire series? 'Nothing is what it appears.' The fantastic transition between rescuing the girl ("You're free") back to Echo walking away from her wiping treatment, 'free' of those false memories of abuse. The bit where Topher talks about why he gave the negotiator personality near-sightedness and asthma. And then says that bit about people either running from something or to something, while Sierra is running on a treadmill in the background, obviously doing neither. And of course, the juxtaposition of Caroline (Echo) talking about her plans to do 'everything' on the old videotape, as her sleeping quarters close over her head in the dollhouse. There's lots of neat subtle stuff going on here. It's not just a simple plot about hostage negotiation. Can't wait for more.
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Blame me for the show?
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I blasted the show based upon the pilot, and it deserved it, but I really like this girl, what an amazing attitude??? I hope this week's episode blows all of our collective minds, so I can cheer for the series, because in a way, it would be cheering for her, personally. And If you are reading this Eliza, well, whether the show is a hit, or not, you are already a winner...and whatever you do, I hope it brings you happiness, and success, therein. Now...to the interview: Eliza Dushku soberly assesses her new role in ‘Dollhouse'
By LUAINE LEE- McClatchy-Tribune News Service
UNIVERSAL CITY, Calif. - When actress Eliza Dushku treated her former boss to lunch it turned out to be the best investment she'd ever made.
Dushku had costarred on creator Joss Whedon's hit fantasy, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 10 years earlier. "Joss and I stayed friends, had a very tight connection when we made the show," says Dushku, seated in a black vinyl armchair in the lobby bar of a hotel here.
"He was kind of a brother, mentor, teacher, a hero of mine. And he's a feminist and my mom's always been a feminist. And being 3,000 miles away from my mom, who's in Boston, I found this real friend and ally in Joss, so we've been friends over the years."
There was a reason for her largesse. Dushku had talked to Fox about returning to television. "And I had a plan in the back of my head. It was Joss, even though he didn't know it yet," she says. "About a week after I did some chatting with the Fox people I called Joss and invited him to lunch ... I bought him a hot Buddha pizza from Ivy at the Shore. He picked the spot. And over a four-hour lunch we had 'Dollhouse.'"
"Dollhouse" is Fox's new sci-fi thriller in which Dushku plays an "Active" in a secret organization. The personalities of the "Actives" are wiped clean and re-programmed so they can become anyone a high-paying client desires - from assassin to corporate tycoon.
Dushku, 28, loves the chance to metamorphose into different alter-egos every week. Lately she's undergone some transformations of her own.
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"I don't drink. And that's my drug. I made a lifestyle change, even though living in L.A. sometimes feels like summer camp, like one big beach party. I have an opportunity and a job and something to contribute - and eliminating the fuzz and the numbing ...
"I've followed a 12-step program and I've had the best few years of my life recently," she says, her dark eyes dominating her face.
"I always showed up to work, but I'm crisp, I'm clear. I feel better. I work harder and I do better work than I ever have. I absolutely believe that I've found a connection with the big, scary G word. Sort of going: 'The universe is going to do what it's going to do and as long as I keep my side of the street clean and am accountable for my actions and my life and I eliminate all those numb-ers and things,' it's been amazing how my life has changed."
She doesn't really define alcohol as her problem. "I just know that now I don't drink, and I feel better physically and emotionally and spiritually. I feel like a different person. I feel like I've been given a new set of eyes to take in the world with," she says.
Part of this change occurred with the death of her grandparents. "I was so close to them they were like my parents," she sighs.
"I just admired them and loved them so much. They were serious practicing Mormons. I was raised Mormon. I'd sort of fallen out of the church, and I'd become this rebel child in my later teenage years and my early 20s, and I watched the way my grandparents lived. And when they died, I thought about the kind of grace and integrity they lived their life with, and something shifted. And I just wanted to sort of change my perception in any way that I could and just live differently and just LIVE.
"I just got a tattoo on the back of my neck that says 'Grace' when my grandmother passed away," she says, patting her neck. "She was a tomboy and she was a farmer and she was a tough cookie. She was always a lady and always graceful. She was funny, smart and witty. She was a lady in grace and it really got me."
Dushku is a devoted traveler, seeking exotic parts of the world and new adventures. And she doesn't worry about failure. "I feel I've surpassed goals that I had and some I didn't even know that I had," she says.
"I'm pretty proud of my work and my resume - both business wise and on a personal level. My house is clean, and I try every day to be better and do better work, especially at this point in my career. I truly feel like I've never felt better, never worked harder and I've never done better work and that's a great feeling. So whatever comes of this - if someone wants to say I failed, I'll never believe that."
Still, not everything is perfect, she confesses. "I'm terrible at cooking. I'm not a good woman in some ways. I don't really know how to take care of a household. But I'm good at where-there's-a-will-there's-a-way. And I'm good at making lemonade out of lemons and trying to always look on the bright side and find the sweet in the seemingly sour. I'm an optimist. I'm a realist, which sometimes is also my demise. I'm a super pragmatist and also a realist and stubborn goes along with that. But I've really been trying to change my perspective and my perception a little bit and see things in a lovelier light."
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I'm mostly a fan of Joss Whedon, and I like the bulk of his work. "Firefly" was one of the best science fiction shows I've ever seen.
But I'll need to see A LOT more from "Dollhouse" if I'm going to stay tuned. Tahmoh Penikett turned in the best work of the pilot, in my opinion, with his smaller FBI role. Which isn't what I should've noticed.
I'm glad Eliza Dushku isn't drinking and has adopted a healthier lifestyle. Really, I am. Good for her. But I'd rather see her nail a leading role in a show. She seems to be trying really hard, and she certainly looks great, but I need more from her, acting-wise.
I wish her luck in future episodes. -
i actually like her less. its nice and all that her professional life improved once she quit drinking (but in a way isn't that up to the fans to decide, i've already read some posts that feel her acting has gotten worse)but all that Oprahesque spiritually stuff gets on my nerves. slow start but the show has potential. I don't care if they go with a shadowy organization or not, Whedon and his great team of writers can pull it off regardless of what direction they go with it. Everyone is doing the whole shadowy secret organization thing right now but good storytellers can dust off tired and overused ideas and give them a fresh twist.
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It reminded me that there are some real human beings involved here, and as a person...I understand much of what she has gone through with her grandparents. I am not a dream killer...so it isn't so easy to just say a show sucks, especially when you realize that someone like this has their hopes and dreams attached to it. One of the AICN.com posters suggested that instead of running more Family Guy re-runs on Sundays, that Fox should run episodes of Dollhouse...and to be fair, I agree, whether I like what I saw on Friday night, or not...many people do like the show, and who knows, maybe they are right? I know that I was really disappointed with the first several episodes of Angel...and even more disappointed with Firefly...and yet, they eventually got me, or I got them. But back to a special Sunday showing of Dollhouse...a good lead in for the show, would be an hour block of The Simpsons. Also, from a promotional marketing standpoint, I would run a few episodes of Dollhouse after American Idol...in order to grab the interest of potential coverts to the show. After that, if it doesn't catch on, no one can say that Fox didn't give it...its all. I hope some Fox execs try this...and for Eliza, I hope it works.Now, if Friday's episode isn't good in my mind, I'll say it...but, honestly, I am crossing my fingers that this will be a positive turning point, one that I can support. Anyway, it is nice to see a female's name on the credits of a show as an Executive producer, and someone so kind as Eliza is. God Bless.
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Your two ideas are rediculous--you're telling me the simpsons fans would become dollhouse fans!?! could you pick any two shows that are MORE UNLIKE each other??? And that post-american idol slot is the most valuable slot they have! They're not going to waste it on a show that has NOT gotten great reviews... they aren't gonna mess around with that slot. period. I like the sunday idea, but an hour of simpsons has NOTHING to do with dollhouse...
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Feb 16, 2009 9:22:39 PM CST
Wixmmm: It Is Ridiculous...And That's Why It's So Cool!!!
by media messiah
I didn't come up with the Sunday's idea, another poster did, but The Simpsons having a varied, and wide audience, is a logical lead in for a night. They have a pop culture audience that is wired into everything, and the same with Idol's audience. Surely Fox can offer up two days, one hour each, to try to make or break this series...The Dollhouse, either that, or they weren't serious in the first place when they signed Eliza or Joss. Yes...this is a ridiculous series of ideas, or just plain brilliant. Only trying it, and time, will confirm which of the two extremes that it is.
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but because the target demographic will actually be around to watch, count in the ratings game, and boost ad revenue for the show... Same for T:SCC.No direct (content-style) competition on Sundays on top of that. Fox could own Sunday nights.'cept for the fact that they are dumbasses--that always gets in their way.
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...Fox will not interrupt its Sunday schedule week after week, as that is their highly rated Cartoon Block...but they would be willing to give-up an hour on one of their Sundays to help boost the show, again...if they are serious about Dollhouse. And the same with American Idol serving as a lead-in for Dollhouse during its regularly scheduled nights, it's called cross promotion.The point is...you go where the ratings are, and it is no more ridiculous than scheduling a new show after the Super Bowl, a stunt that all the networks pull. In fact, ABC even did it for their reboot of Alias...as well, they have given Jimmie Kimmel Live certain choice positionings after special programming ala the Oscars, in older to give the show a higher public profile. Well, Fox doesn't have the Super Bowl anymore, but they do have the Simpsons and American Idol...both high ratings getters for the network, and the latter, the biggest show on any network...and the single show that is keeping Fox afloat...while allowing it to beat the big 3 networks. Surely they can afford to risk a few nights, to give Dollhouse a boost in the ratings???
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I lived in a fraternity house at USC for 2 1/2 years. Most of the house would be in the entertainment room watching the comedy animation block. Of these 25-35 people, I can only think of TWO who would even give dollhouse a chance. You are not in touch with ALOT of the realities in the entertainment world. I do think sunday could work, but the idea that a lead-in of comedy animation would get more people to try out a show like dollhouse is just ludacris.
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You idea of just 'throwing it in there' to 'boost' the viewership is even more flawed. Say those people do catch dollhouse--they wait until the next week and 'oh, where'd dollhouse go?... oh well, it wasn't that interesting anyways.' You DO NOT put your new, unproven shows in your most coveted timeslot, unless its a gaurunteed home run--you find something that has proven itself worthy of the best slot... like house after the superbowl last year, or the office after the superbowl this year. Fringe has proven itself, and i believe it will follow american idol, although i'll admit i'm not completely sure about that.
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It needs a striking intro to counter the indeterminacy of the story.
Something like the James Bond gunsight.
It does not need more of Eliza and other Actives drowsily walking around (unless naked). -
Feb 16, 2009 11:40:02 PM CST
Wixmmm: Guys In A Frat...he Sudden Visual Of Hot Women???
by media messiah
That sounds like plenty of reason for guys to stay planted to watch the show. Add lots of action and sexy visuals...and guys will stay to watch. We aren't talking about a slow talky chick flick here, we are talking about an action show with a sexy female lead. Guys are very visual, and think about sex every 15 seconds, according to stats. I guarantee you, if they start the episode with Eliza in a a bikini...and with a machine gun in her hands, every guy available is going to stay to watch. Next sequence, Eliza in lingerie, doing martial arts...and later, Eliza doing yoga in bra and panties. Men love two things, sex and violence...you combine the two and you have a winner on your hands. Yep, that sounds like a potent mix for success to me. Have you ever seen shows like The New Zoo Review or Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and High School: The Musical
before??? If you have, you probably notice some very hot chicks on those shows
wearing revealing skirts and tops and what not??? Well, that wasn't, and isn't for the kids, so who was it, and is it, for? Well, Moms will allow their kids to watch kid friendly shows, as they know it will keep the kids entertained and will serve to babysit them. But Dads, they can't wait to change the damn channel, same with older Brothers, but what makes them put up with it? Well, it is when they see some hot chick on the screen...and guess what, they start looking forward to those shows, as an excuse to see the hot chicks while appearing to be just an agreeable Dad or Bro. Programmers know this, and it becomes a part of subliminal marketing. These so called innocent kiddie shows just aren't aimed at the kids, they are aimed at channel surfing Daddies and older Brothers. My point? There is no straight guy in any room that wouldn't at least give Eliza and crew a chance after the airing of The Simpsons or American Idol...not one. BTW, Dads and older Brothers don't watch American Idol for the music or the competition, they are watching for the chicks...it is just natural animal instinct, and TV programmers know it. -
MM, you are SOOO far off base. My fraternity brothers want to laugh at animated comedy. You TOTALLY overestimate the power of 'sex sells.' You see, MM, they want to watch fox on sundays to laugh. Dollhouse is not a concept they are into. Just cause it has a sexy star, they'll like it? You see, in a fraternity like mine, if we want sexual gratification, we don't get it by jerking off to a sci fi show with a hot girl-- if we wanted sex, we'd go meet a girl and do the deed. I have had countless one night stands... believe me, i'd rather be doing that then sitting around with my frat brothers wishing we were banging the lead in a average show. Maybe you need the sex factor in your shows, and maybe that's what gets you off, but the people who actually have lives and know how to talk with girls couldn't give a shit about a show just cause it has a sexy lead. You are a loser.
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I think the titles are okay, but the music...is to moody...and dull??? It says nothing to suggest the subject matter of the show.
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Are you telling me that guys can't turn on a dime, from watching comedy, to something that would appeal to their other instincts, especially sex??? Come now??? I am talking about luring a mass audience to Dollhouse, and although it may not seem a natural fit...many people men, women, and teens, will give it a shot because some of the Simpsons demo...includes the same demo that watches other shows like Lost, New Galactica, American Idol, 2 And A Half Men, The Big Bang Theory, Supernatural, Smallville, and sports events like Football, Baseball, Basketball, as well as those who loved now cancelled shows like Alias, King Of Queens, etc. The demo is ecletic...but it exists, why not tap into it to boost ratings, or at least try??? That said, we are never going to know who's right in this debate, until, or if, Fox tries it. PS: Bet if I showed up to your Frat after a Simpsons broadcast with a bunch of strippers ready for lap dances, your frat buddies could easily switch from comedy to sex, and on a dime???!!! I rest my case.
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Are you telling me that guys can't turn on a dime, from watching comedy, to something that would appeal to their other instincts, especially sex??? Come now??? I am talking about luring a mass audience to Dollhouse, and although it may not seem a natural fit...many people...men, women, and teens, will give it a shot because some of the Simpsons' demo...includes the same demo that watches other shows like Lost, New Galactica, American Idol, 2 And A Half Men, The Big Bang Theory, Supernatural, Smallville, and sports events like Football, Baseball, Basketball, and Nascar, as well as those who loved now cancelled shows like Alias, King Of Queens, etc. The demo is eclectic...but it exists, why not tap into it to boost ratings, or at least try???
That said, we are never going to know who's right in this debate, until, or if, Fox tries it.
PS: Bet if I showed-up to your Frat after a Simpsons broadcast with a bunch of strippers ready for lap dances, your frat buddies could easily switch from comedy to sex, and on a dime???!!! I rest my case. -
Cue all the Whedon fangirls crying because there isn't enough silliness.
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All the others were just kind of boring. I fell asleep during the Firefly pilot. Julie Benz was just awful in the Buffy pilot. And you could feel the angst and despair pretentiously dripping of Boreanaz in the Angel pilot. This was so much better then those.
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of posting this shit? browncoats are going to love it regardless of how much it sucks. whedon haters won't have their minds changed.
i'm calling it. canceled after three eps. -
no one outside this little nerdiverse even knows who Joss Whedon is, so why Fox is promoting with his name so heavily is beyond me. i'm pretty sure his efforts since Buffy/Angel have all been epic failures.
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Dr Horrible was far from an epic failure.
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They are such diehard zealots over there, that you better not give a contrary opinion to anything they say, or endorse, as the gospel, or you will be attacked by them, from moderators, to commentors...and then promptly banned from their message boards.The greater problem in this??? That "Yes Men" attitude is so ubiquitous that I think Joss Whedon and company (Mutant Enemy) have even bought into it, and that has resulted in Dollhouse not gestating into the show it should be. Every time Joss releases a clip of the show, story details, casting choices, etc., everyone at Whedonesque.com applauds in a standing...almost zombie like, ovation...whether the choices are good, bad, or indifferent...every man and woman, to a person, claims that it is a great idea, in fact, the best, and greatest, they have ever heard before...and Joss can do no wrong. That isn't serving to give Joss and company the constructive, and informed, criticism that they need to correct errors, when they arise, in their work--the reason I suspect, at least in part, that Dollhouse is now in an "ify" situation, in terms of its execution, and thus, its future.
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Eliza's character is a glorified hooker. The Dollhouse company is retarded filled with unbelievable characters who I cant like based solely of the seedy job they do. Also what is the deal with the guy who runs the Dollhouse? All conflicted with morals... It's an underground company and it would be run by a pig of a human not a nice guy who the hired off of some job seeking site who is in way over his head.
I wont bother with the show until the season ends (if it does at all) and it has better word of mouth. It isn't up to Joss standards this show. -
this is well known. Give it more time, once the Suits Influence is diluted.
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HE didn't. Fox had Dushku on contract. Dusku went to Whedon. Whedon did this for her, not Fox.That makes a lot more sense.
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He should be playing a President like Obama, not some suit running the Dollhouse. As per the show, I saw a opening scene, it would appear, for Friday's episode, and again, it is sloppy, and as you said, like the pilot, not up to Whedon standards. There is a link via Whedonesque.com that will lead you to YouTube. You can see the scene there. I would be interested on what your independent take is on that scene.
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Feb 18, 2009 5:38:15 AM CST
The New Zoo Review = Hot Chiks?!!
by elvispresleehorsleyharveyoswaldoprahwinf
Media Messiah wtf have you ingested?
Emmy Jo? Hot?
Blinded by Onan or just cock-eyed from trying to reach it with your mouth?Either way, put a paper grocery bag on your head and then hit the bag repeatedly with a ball-peen hammer until you no longer have a desire to post anything on the internet ever again. Please. -
I've only seen the first episode so I guess I can't really say much but why don't authorities first try to figure out how to hire someone from the Dollhouse and then go from there? It seems like the human trafficking angle is just taking the long way home
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Like you'd say no!!! If the person you are now, could have met her during the production of that show, you...or any other guy who is straight, would be happily married to her right now, if she offered her hand in marriage!!!When I was a kid, I use to watch shows like that, Batman and Star Trek, and I'd think, "Wow, this is fun, what an interesting show?"...but when I got older...and started noticing women, I said to myself, "Damn, how is it that I didn't notice how hot that girl is???"Well, my point is...when you are a child...and you see these shows, and your older Brother, or Father, aren't forcing you to change the channel or turn off the tv, it is for a very good reason, in their minds, as they, unlike you, are noticing all the attractive women...and that is the point of the casting of pretty women by TV programmers. Subliminally, producers are doing that on purpose, to make sure that older males don't change the channel on the kiddies or discourage them from watching their favorite shows, like the Cheetah Girls, and what not. That, those hot women, are for Dad, and your older Bro, not you, if you are a kid. Do you really think that Emmy Jo needed to wear mini skirts and knee high white vinyl boots, with push up heels, to teach the kiddies, or to dance and sing songs??? Again, that wasn't for you, that was to make sure Dad didn't change the channel!!!!
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Remember Wonder Woman...and Wonder Girl...with french cut/Brazillian Bikini bottoms and hot boots, and Electro Woman And Dyna Girl...and those revealing outfits??? Again, that wasn't for your eyes...that was for Dad's eyes...and that of your horny older Bro, who would have normally changed the channel, save for that subliminal strip show. You are watching the same show yes...but on another level, you are each watching different shows from a different perspective, you see innocent fun, but Dad and Older Bro are seeing chicks dressed like hookers, and enjoying it.
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obviously no one else is. I have no more to say. Just couldn't let him have the last word here. I'm sure he'll be bitching in the next Dollhouse thread about how they didn't follow his script ideas for the next episode.
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Yes, I believe that everyone should Fuck Media Messiah! Tell a Friend, and they'll tell two friends...and so on...and so on...and so on. Oisin5199...I'm glad we think exactly alike!!!
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Of course you're the only one who thinks you're funny. Narcissistic boob.
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I'm being serious! After all, you are the one that said that you wanted to fuck me, remember???!!! Well, two can play that game, but I'm planning to be the one on top!!!!
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- There's a STAR TREK video game that is going to lead into JJ's STAR TREK 2 apparently... -- 88 total posts 88 posts
- AVENGERS enemy revealed as pink boardgame pieces... You might suffer some form of elation... SPOILERS!!! -- 86 total posts 80 posts
- Rest In Peace Bethesda’s Adam Adamowicz -- 76 total posts 76 posts
- The Sensorties Revisit The Friday Docback (And Still Smell)!! DOCTOR WHO Story #7 Again, The Coming Of Season/Series 7, And More!! -- 69 total posts 69 posts
- Quint travels to Barsoom and visits the John Carter set!!! -- 127 total posts 62 posts
- SPACE 2099!! -- 159 total posts 61 posts
- Friday Brings SWEEPS DAY NINE!! Gab Here About Tonight’s FRINGE!! Plus Einstein on TIM, Wiig On PORTLANDIA, MAHER, CLONE, GIFTED, GRIMM, SPARTACUS, SUPERNATURAL, GOLD RUSH And More!! -- 88 total posts 60 posts
- Wanna smell like the Hulk? What about Cap? Consider yourself a Thunder God or a unisex God of Mischief? -- 58 total posts 57 posts
- Ridley Scott's Next Will Be Cormac McCarthy's THE COUNSELOR! -- 50 total posts 50 posts